The Iced Coffee Hour - $50,000,000+ Pokemon Collector Breaks Silence on Logan Paul, PSA Controversy, & Stolen Cards

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

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in the world. What's your most expensive one? The most expensive card is probably the pristine 10 first edition based Charzart. My Charzart collection is listed right now for almost $50 million. We have some of the biggest investors here on the channel, and for some reason, your Pokemon card collection has outperformed all of them. Well, I know why. The reason is...

I get 20 messages a day from all the big guy, Justin Bieber. They all want my cards. I bought a first edition-based Charzard for $700. Now it's worth about $500 grand. Logan came over just a visit. He ended up making a play for one of the cards. I know you're thinking, this is stupid, right? You're paying a quarter million dollars for a piece of cardboard, and you're right.

I said, Gary, I'm a maverick. I said, okay, that's very bright. $60,000, $492,000. What's the darkest? side of the high-end Pokemon market that you've been aware of. Gary, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour. You've been called the Warren Buffett of Pokemon. I'm curious, what's the total value of your collection today? Well, you know, it's kind of interesting. I heard you and Logan talking about the number of the most premium cards I had or something. And humbly, I say,

you guys were way off. Oh, no. Yeah. You were closer, though. with what you said. I think you said about 20 million and that Logan was more, you know, 10 million or 12 million or something like that. So I know it's a bit of a general,

you know, statement, but it's well over those amounts. If someone offered you $50 million right now for your entire Pokemon collection, would you accept it? Wow.

That would be tempting. That would be tempting. You know, I'm too old, need it. I don't need the money. And it's all eventually probably going to go to one of our charities in that. So that would be hard to say no on. So I'm going to, I'm going to say maybe on that one. It's something to sleep on. Yeah, but it kind of hurts me to say that because I'm in no mind frame whatsoever to ever give those cards up. I know I gave one to Logan. You know, Logan bought one and

Steve Aoki bought one. And do you know that story with Steve Aoki? Tell us. Logan came over just to visit, just to see my collection and all that. And you probably saw the video where he ended up making a play for one of the cards. He knew I wouldn't sell, and I didn't. Then he took my son aside, Devin, and said, would your dad be offended if I, you know, tried to get one of the PSA 10 first edition base charzards in that, you know, would you

Because I know your dad doesn't want to sell nor need to sell anything. And Devin said, well, he would never sell the Beckett tens. And he said it's very unlikely he would sell anything out of his collection. And Logan said, well, would he get offended? And Devin said, no, you know, he's easy going. He doesn't care. You can offer, but he won't take it. And so that's how that happened, you know, with Logan.

And, you know, like you saw, I had a moment of weakness. Well, I saw he, he opened up a briefcase and had $150,000 cash in there. Yes. Was he just seeing the cash in front of you? Men absolutely nothing. Do you regret selling Logan Paul a PSA 10 first edition, base set Charzard for $150,000? I don't regret it at all. But I have to tell you one other thing, Steve Aoki, he had been trying for years to get me to sell

them a card, right? And I never would. And so he called me and he said, you sold Logan one of your cards and I've been trying for, and I'm your friend, and I've been trying for years to get you to sell me one and you won't do it. And that, and I went, ugh. I said, okay, I'll sell you one. So Logan bought his for the $150,000. I sold the one to Steve, right after Logan purchased it, prices went up, right? I kind of anticipated. Steve, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but he paid $172,000 for a second one. But then I used those dollars to purchase two more

in those coming months and had to pay more because after Logan purchased, the prices jumped, had to pay more so I came out quite a bit behind, maybe $20,000, $40,000 behind. but I did purchase two more and I went back to having 12 of them. You know what's crazy is we bring people on this podcast that are career investors. You know, Chris Camillo turned $20,000 into $20 million.

Probably more than that. Probably $100 million at this point. Who knows? We bring on the genius entrepreneurs, business people, investors, and you've probably outperformed most of them because you bought Charzards. Tell me the point that you knew this would be a very viable. investment opportunity, like the exact moment. Well, that's actually a wonderful question because I did have a clue.

And the only reason I had a clue is because I'm a lifelong collector. I started collecting when I was five years old in 1959. I would collect bottle caps with football players' pictures on the, you know, snap off the bottle cap top. And on the inside there'd be a picture of a football player. And when I was five years old, I started collecting. those, and I immediately had to catch them all. I immediately had to complete the whole set. And my father, remember, I'm a little tiny kid, five years old, would take me to all the gas stations. I'd take a magnet and load it down the coat machine, you know, knock off the top, right, and all the bottle caps in the bottom, run a magnet down below and pull up all the bottle caps until I could get them all.

Well, from that point on, I've been a major completionist and very much so a collector and a love for collecting. And I can tell you that, though most of those bottle caps I may not have today, you know, how they got knocked off in boxes over the years. I have some. I never gave them up. You know, I kept all my collections going back here. That's why I have five storage lockers. in three different states with my collections inside. And honestly, 95% of them are worth absolutely nothing,

except the memories that I have from each and every set thing I collected. What's the most valuable collection you have outside of Pokemon? I would say probably my science fiction magazines from the 1920s, my pulp magazines, science wonder stories. I would say those are probably the next most valuable because I got them in very good condition and I knew I was old enough and longtime collector I knew how to protect them

because pulp magazines were not made to collect. In the 1920s, they were made to read and throw away. So the paper was crumbly. It's hard to find one with a spine that doesn't have crumbles and all that in mind are, amazing condition. So maybe those.

What you do kind of reminds me of that angel investor. It's someone that just throws a bunch of money at a bunch of random things. And one thing, that being Pokemon and maybe your sci-fi magazines or novels or whatever they are, those jump. And you make your ROI on that. How much money have you spent buying all of these collectibles? You know, going back, I'm 72 years old, going back to 65 years, back to, back to that when that little boy was collecting those bottle caps,

there would be absolutely no way could I figure out how much I've spent over these 65 years on all my stuff. Again, I have five storage lockers filled with collectibles. And I would say the vast majority I paid more than they would be worth today for that stuff. But it was stuff that I just wanted to complete and collect. And then when my boys, I have two sons that are probably, your ages, right? I started collecting things with them and overpaying on most things. It wasn't the money. I never collected as an investment. You know, I, otherwise I would have sold,

there were opportunities to sell my Pokemon cards 10 times over the last 26 years, probably 10 times, 27 years, 28 years now almost. And yet I never sold. them. I understand you didn't do it from investment perspective, but the way you look at investments is like, okay, well, how much money did I put in and what did I get out? And if what you got out is about $30 million, if you put in a million dollars, that's a 30x. Like, people can only if you put money in Sandisk a year ago, that's the only way you could have 30xed. Okay, let's be honest. So I'm curious, do you think it could be around a million dollars? I'm just trying to get a grasp of like the returns that alternative investments can get if you're doing it perfectly.

I would probably have to say it would come out to less than a million dollars over all these years. Because remember, most of the things simply didn't. I started in the beginning of all of them, except we were talking about Magic the Addering. I missed the first two sets. But even those weren't that expensive in the very beginning. So I would say probably less than a million dollars. What's the cheapest PSA-10 base set? First Edition Charzard you've ever bought?

Maybe $700. I remember getting one in 2000 for $700. Wow. $700. $700 for a PSA 10. Remember, back then, people were not grading. I'm the one who started the great PSA grading of Pokemon cards besides the ones that were brought over for the Japanese promos from Japan that went on the shop at home network

in that. Besides those, the English ones, I was the first one to start grading, along with E. Birdman, Eddie Brenna Schultz, him and I. Maybe you know, me and my friend Eddie, have graded 76 of the 125 PSA 10, first edition-based Charzards. We've graded 76. We have paperwork, old paperwork from PSA showing that. And you can check the pop report now. And you'll see there's 124 or 125 minus 1, the one Logan cracked. Yeah. That's like a 400 X return. That's crazy.

Who was selling it? Mm. A very unfortunate person. Yeah. But it's worked both ways because in the very beginning, I did sell some stuff. And I had a young man, well, a man in his 30s, come up to me at a recent card show and showed me a card that. He said, I sold him 26 years ago, and it was a shadowless PSA 10 Charzard. And he said, you know, Gary, you wouldn't remember me or you want to remember this.

But when I was young, when I was a kid, you sold me this card in a shadowless PSA 10 in that, which, of course, I wouldn't remember now. And he purchased that one for $350, he said. So, and now, now that card, you know, of course, is... What do you think that's worth, $175,000, $200,000? I would say over $100,000, but I'm not really exactly sure. I do have 10 PSA 10, Shattelis Charzards myself. And what I find remarkable is that you're on the podcast five and a half years ago.

Yes. And I watched it back, and a lot of what you said ended up coming true. You said at the time that the Pokemon, market was a bit inflated because of Logan Paul's involvement in videos. And you said, wait, two years. And that is a good time to buy. And sure enough, that was 2022 at the bottom of the Pokemon market. So you're correct on that. The other thing you were correct about is that you said that you believed a BGS 10 Charzard would outperform real estate. You're also correct on that. Yes. Have been accurate with those estimates and guesses really? are because I've been collecting for 60 years. I've seen the good things come and go, go up and down, and I've seen the staying power.

I mean, I've seen everything from the Michael Jordan rookies, you know, the Fleer rookies, all the way up to the OJ Simpson rookies, and what's happened, you know, with these things over time. And with Pokemon, from the very beginning, I didn't see it as an investment, but I knew it was a good investment for anybody who wanted to get involved in that,

because it had a few determinants that were unmistakable for anybody who's been collecting for that many years. They've seen so many things. And on the opposite side, I've seen, like, Beanie Babies, you know, it was a real bad one. I've seen how they developed, what happened to them. And that's information, you know, that you can use later, you know, in what you decide

to collect or not collect. So I would just say it's because of my lifelong collecting gene that's always had me paying attention. And I knew, and you asked me today about Pokemon. And Pokemon, yeah, it's going to have spikes, but the bottom line has been steadily up for 27 years. okay, it's been steadily up and sure you've had these things

and these things but it's been steadily up and I've always believed that for 15 years after they produced their final set that hobby is a beautiful thing to experience that's for sure.

So since we are a bit of an investment podcast and curious, since we filmed five and a half years ago which card has had the best return? Now really quick, I got to say, every single business is asking themselves the same question. How do we make AI work for us? The possibilities are endless, but guessing is too risky. And sitting on the sidelines is not an option either because one thing is almost certain.

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Thank you, NetSuite for supporting the show. And now let's get back to the episode. So since we are a bit of an investment podcast, I'm curious, since we filmed five and a half years ago, which card has had the best return? You know, but a lot of it isn't just the card. It's the people involved. You know, what Logan, Paul did with the illustrator, with that Pokemon Illustrator, I mean, that's, I would say that's probably performed, you know, one of the best, dollar-wise, character-wise, gangar, gangar, was never that big of the deal. You know, he was always kind of cool, you know, but he was never, ever anybody's favorite.

Now, half the hobby, he's their favorite. And so everything with Gengar on it has done incredibly well. Why is that? Why did he just become so popular all of a sudden? That one I wish I had the answer to. Characters like Pikachu, of course, and Charzar, they were givens. Lugia started off. Big, real big.

A lot of those guys ended up big, but Gangar was never, you know, that consequential until, you know, a few years ago and it just took off. And I'm really not sure why. You know, it's interesting. All of the Pokemon that you're saying are the Pokemon that when I was a kid and I was playing the games. I still play the games to this day.

But when I was a kid, those are the ones I liked. Like, those are the ones, gangar, I picked out and I was like every single run, I have to have a gangar. Like, I love gangars. Oh, okay. So maybe what you have. have to do is just like look back on when you were a kid and the things that excited you, everyone loves Al-A-Kazam.

Yes, yes. Maybe there's some value to be seen in Al-a-Zam cards. Whenever you do a run, everyone always wants to get the Abra. It's hard. It teleports away. Like there's, that could be another one. Well, that's a good tip. That's actually a really good tip.

You know, you asking me that question. Now, if it's something besides Pokemon, I look back to, you know, you know, what really rang my bell the most when I was younger, you know, when I was younger. you know, when I was a kid or whatever. And why would my feelings be any different than the majority of the people around back then? So that could be a good thing. I mean, Gengar was a good card to use in your deck in that, you know, but, you know, now it's a collector special, right? Now, another thing that people recognize you from is being on Pond Stars and having, I believe, one of the most viewed-eared-earned

episodes ever in their history selling your Charzard collection for $500,000. And they said no. I'm curious today, what do you think that would be worth? First off, that Pondstar segment, not the whole episode, but just our segment, has been viewed over a hundred million times worldwide. If you can imagine that. But if Rick bought it for $500,000, what do you think it would be worth? The truth is, is that Rick would have flipped. he would have flipped it.

He would have bought it for $500,000 and then tried to get $550,000 as quick as possible. So he doesn't have any regrets. And Chum Lee has mentioned that many times, you know, that there's no regrets. They didn't purchase my collection, you know, because it just would have been

a several thousand dollars, you know, profit for them and it would have moved on from there. Now, did I want to sell it? Absolutely not. I was not interested in selling my Charzard collection. That's why I asked at the time, top retail, getting to your question, top retail at the time was probably about $500,000. And we knew Rick isn't going to pay $500,000 for anything, right? So what would that be worth today?

I have those cards listed on eBay a year and a half ago. had it at 19 million, and then I went up to 29 million. Now it's 49 million because I don't want to sell it. So actual value of those 132 cards I took in maybe, maybe 31, 32,000. What's the highest offer you've ever received for your entire Pokemon collection? Yeah, it's hard for people to offer on the whole thing. I can tell you this, I did sell, 17% of my Charzard collection. I don't know if you know that. No.

I did say, there was a video made of it. You know, S.M. Pratt? Scott Pratt, he made a video where he flew out knowing I was going to do that to a Russian friend of mine who wanted to purchase 17% of my Charzard collection. And this was a very like a best, friend. And so I decided to do it. Just like I had that weak moment with Logan, I had a weak moment

with this. And so I sold 17% of it for, what was it like 90,000, something like that? 17%. He's done very well with it. But he doesn't get any of the cards, any of the collection until I pass away. Because my share, you know, which is 83%, my share is all going to our charities. His share, he can do whatever he wants with. So what's the highest offer someone has ever brought to you for your Charzart collection? Because I got a substantial offer for all of the English-based ones, which amounts to about 80 cards or something. And I was offered about 17 million for that. But that was like in 2010, something like that. Something like that.

So. That was the last big offer you've received? Well, that's the biggest offer. The, I don't think I've received any legitimate high offers for all of them, you know, since. Why do you think people are so obsessed with Pokemon again all of a sudden? 20 years of going to school and adulthood beginning their jobs, you know, those kind of take a priority. for the kids of those ages, of that era. Now those kids have got the money.

Now they got the money. Now they want to buy back their memories, which is what I think we all want to do, you know, with our collections, real, real collectors. So maybe it's the timing. Maybe it's the, you know, now that those kids have grown up, now they want to go backwards. When's the exact moment that you knew

that this was going to be so big? You know, people ask me that. All the time they say, Gary, how were you so smart? How do you know to hang on to these and to buy these and to save them? And I had no idea. You know, I wasn't smart at all. It's just that that's how my collections have always been. I've always bought what I wanted and what I enjoyed.

I can tell you how my real passion started with Pokemon. But I wasn't smart at all. It's just that I was just following the pattern of my life, what I've always done. And again, the majority of the things I could tell you about went to absolutely nothing, went to zero in that, did I ever get rid of them? No, they're still sitting there and they still mean just as much to me today, you know, as they did then. So I didn't know, honestly. I didn't know. How were you able to amass such a large collection, though?

Were you going and trying to buy these individually? Were you just going to card shops? How were you able to get even first edition boxes? Right. Well, you know, I guess I was kind of fortunate being on the West Coast because Wizards of the Coast released did all their releases from West to East, right? They released their first edition boxes without them being a huge big deal on the West Coast. and I was in California, living in California, and already a hobbyist and already, you know,

wanting to complete sets in that. And then when I saw what Pokemon was doing, and also I knew that Pokemon transferred well from Japan. I knew everything transferred over well from Japan. When it came to collectibles, I was pretty connected with card shops and things like that because I was a lifelong collector and a great customer. And that, so when Pokemon came in, it didn't mean that.

It wasn't that big of a deal. Wizards made a very small quantity of first edition base because they didn't know how it was going to do. Didn't want to overprint. And so they released it. And I pretty much had the pick of the litter, you know, back then. And I was already in my 40s. I was already a lifelong collector. I already, you know, knew what I was doing.

And so I just got as many as I could, and I ended up with a ton. Let's talk about the Pikachu Illustrator card, though. Yes. What was the final price that it sold for? 16 million. He got over 16 million for it for PSA 10. Do you think that over $16 million for this Pikachu illustrator card was too much money? Well, I can tell you this.

There's not enough money in the world that I could have that would have. that would have justified me paying $16 million for that card. But remember, I have a long history, you know, in the hobby. So I know that chances are there's 39 of them. And one, PSA 10, you know, that may have been a marginal 10. But, you know, there's gray areas. You know, you can look at a card. You can say, well, this is almost, you know, it hits that line,

Right? And you can go down or up, right? So there's only one 10. And I'm not, I'm certainly not going to say a rip-off because I believe the guy could turn around and get his money back today. So, so no, I definitely don't think it's a rip-off. How much would it devalue that card if another PSA 10 came up? That would hurt. Would it go down from 16 million to like 10 million? Or would it cut it down to like four?

I would say like half. Because then if another comes out, then it's no longer one of a kind. Is the longer one of that works? I think the one of a kind aspect gets such a big premium where it's no longer like, oh, you don't have the only one. Right. Yes. I, uh, that.

Right? You're laughing, but it's true. Of course it's true. That's what I, you're like, well, it makes it less valuable because it's no longer one of one. Yeah, that's the idea of the-same. But, but there's a huge premium bump is the point I'm trying to make. I agree. Uh-huh.

I don't know. But one of one makes it pretty special. If it was no longer a one-in-one, it would devalue it. No question. How much? But the market cap would increase. It wouldn't go down to half, and it's exactly the same market cap of PSA 10. It might get an illustrator.

Do you, like, there's a chance. Another one comes out, and then all of a sudden, each are worth $4 million. And all of a sudden, the market cap has. Yes, I do. Yeah, because personally, I think 16 was too much for the card. I think to me it's probably an 8 to 10 and a half million on a card. We had two people that were willing to pay 16 for it. Yeah, but those are institutional people who are going to try to fractionalize it.

And that was their marketing expense because they got a ton of eyeballs on. That, to me, is worth $6 million. Free marketing. So the card could be worth $10. And then they put $6 million of marketing dollars behind it. Yeah. Of course, I've talked to Logan about this. And he was hoping to double his money.

You know, he got it in the area of $5 million. and he was hoping to get $10 million. I don't know if he mentioned that. I did watch your podcast with him, which, by the way, I thought was tremendous, great podcast. And Logan came across tremendously. I had to text him and tell him, doggone. I said, you came across so well.

I said, why? You told him that he did a good job. Oh, I told him. But he not only did a good job, he did a tremendous job. And you guys were out of sight. I mean, I wish I would have been sitting right there when you interviewed him, so I could have heard the whole thing. Thank you so much. But he was hoping to double his money.

And, you know, with Logan, you know, you get that effect, you know, the increase, you know, value effect, you know, because it is Logan. Now, the chances of another one coming out are, I don't think, I didn't think one would ever come out. And that one was a nine. and they cross-graded it, you know, and got a 10. It didn't have to, they didn't have to cross-grade it when it was a 9, and then there would be zero-tens, right? But there's only 39, there's only 39 in the world, and they've all pretty much come out,

and they've all been graded, and they've all graded less than 10. So if another one came out, I'd be shocked in that. But I want to give you a little context with the PSA-10 First Edition-Based Charzards. When I did that Pond Stars, that's 2016, 10 years ago, there were 123 PSA-10 First Edition-Based Charzards. Today, there's 125 knock-off Logan. In other words, the population has not increased in 10 years in that. And these, there were more than 39 made.

You know, there was, you know, a thousand, you know, a thousand made. And so it's, I would not, I would not be afraid of something like that happening if I were the one to purchase it from Logan. And I should tell you something else, the one that Logan bought for me, the PSA 10, your first edition base, I wanted that card when he got a 10 because I had at that time the only two in the world. And now he got the third one. I wanted it really, really bad. I was willing to overpay for it. And he came up and met me here about other stuff, just family stuff and that.

But I told him, I said, I want that card really bad. He said, Gary, you could offer to trade me your two Beckett 10 first edition-based chargers for buy one, and I wouldn't do it. That card is going to my grave with me in that. And I know that can sound, you know, yeah, right, you know. But he did sell the illustrator. He's done a lot of transactions in these last five years or however long that's been. And he still has that card and he never talks about it. He never shows it.

That card is his personal holy grail in that. So, you know, that kind of tells you how hard, number one, how hard just to achieve those grades. But number two, how much they can mean to a person. And they mean a lot. And that's why I liked your podcast with him so much because that all came across. His love and his passion for Pokemon came across. Has he had problems? Has he made mistakes and all that?

Of course. I mean, in my 72 years, I never made a mistake. So, but he's sincere when it comes to that. I want to tell you one other thing, just to get off the Logan thing after this, because people don't know him very well. They know what he wants you to know, right? And he plays things up, and, you know, it's all the wrestling. You know, I got to tell you, an awful lot of it is just acting in that

because I have seen how he really is. And just to give you one quick example, then I can get off him. When he came to my house with about six, seven, eight people or something, he made sure that every single one did not use a curse word. He said, I don't want you cursing in front of Gary. And that, you know, no, not that I even care, right? But just out of respect for some reason, because he's never heard me swear because I never have.

in that, but I don't object to anybody being who they are and doing what they want, right? When's the last time you said the F word? This episode is in partnership with Airbnb. Graham and I are literally always traveling for the podcast, and in fact, these past few weeks have been very brutal. We have worked so much, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm actually going to both Thailand and Japan for the next three weeks with a couple close friends.

I cannot tell you how excited I am for that. The beaches in Thailand, to die full. The food in Thailand, amazing. And I'm telling you, it's going to be a blast. If you travel a bunch, you probably don't think twice about your homesteading empty. But when you're away, you could actually list your place on Airbnb instead of leaving it unused. And if you've ever considered hosting but weren't sure how you'd manage everything, the co-host network can help make it feel a lot more manageable.

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help getting started, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Running a small business means wearing a hundred different hats. And some of those hats, payroll, taxes, benefits, compliance. They're not fun hats. They're hats that eat up your time and hats that you have to deal with, and Graham does not. All right, Jack, well, that's why we're partnered with Gusto. For those unaware, Gusto is the online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all in one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you could pay hire on board and support your team from anywhere. I actually used Gusto way before we ever partnered with them. When I first set up my S-Corp and started working with Graham, I had no idea where to start.

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When's the last time you said the F word? I've never said the F word. No, are you serious? ever. Never have. Even in like a fit, someone cuts you off in the freeway. You're like, oh, just let it loose. No, I would even hate to tell you what I say because it's so corny because I don't say, though, yeah.

That's what you say? What do you say when someone cuts? What do you say when someone cuts you off on the freeway and you're upset? What do you yell at it? I'm just silent and let my eyes turn red, I guess. I, you know, in my, in my day, in my day, in my day, with my parents, we just simply didn't swear and weren't allowed to swear. And, uh, and, but again, now I make it sound so corny because I don't care if people swear, right? It means it doesn't affect

me in any way whatsoever. Uh, I just don't do it myself. And just the fact that he would, you know, go out of his way to make sure they didn't in front of me was just, uh, because he knew I didn't swear in that, but I didn't swear because it's just not a part of me, but I don't mind if he does or you do, but you know, come to think of it, I've never heard either one of you two swear. We believe it. I mean, we're not generally big cursors. So, and one other thing, obviously, Logan is someone, unfortunately, where if you defend him, you just get completely excoriated and people hate you online.

Right. I'm not going to sit here and be dishonest. Like my experiences with Logan, I have nothing bad to, like he, when we filmed our podcast with him before, during, and afterwards, he was incredibly patient. He, like, to me, showed great moral character. Like, he invited us into his home. He was very friendly, sharing, caring. And obviously, I tell people this that are already skeptical of Logan, like my friends or whatever. I'm like, yeah, he was great. Like, of course you're going to say that because you're filming a podcast with him. So he's going to put his best foot forward. And he doesn't want you guys saying negative things about him online. I'm like, that sounds like guilty until proven innocent. Yes, right. Even in 2020, we met him, and I picked up a Pokemon card from him. Oh, I remember that. He was so cordial, so nice. And I even met him in 2016 at the gym, 24-hour fitness in Hollywood.

Super nice. I went up to him because I had seen his videos just starting to pop up online. And he was so nice. When someone invites me into their personal house and we're standing in the kitchen, they're all talking on the island. And he's got a shirtless, by the way. shirtless, yeah. Jacked.

All right, we don't need to go that far because now people are going to say, oh, look, you guys not doing it. Yeah. Yeah. And his bird is. Just walking us. Yeah. And his bird is there. And his bird poops on the ground and his wife is walking around with the baby in her arms.

It's like, that's just a normal. To me, everything I saw was like indicative of just a normal happy family and the bird poops. And then he was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Let me, oh, no, no, don't, no, don't, you don't worry about it. I'll clean it up. Like, I don't know. Well, you know, I could show you, I could show you my texts with him.

I can show you my text with him. The majority of them are baby pictures, just to give you an idea. All right, so we've got to circle back to the finance aspect of it. Do you worry that the hobby is becoming too much of a business? Yeah, I think it's inevitable. You know, I just think that that's how things go. And I don't mind it at all in that. I mean, it's increased the interest.

You have people going back on their collection. that were worth next to nothing. Now they're worth money. Now they go to shows. Now they sell to younger people who don't have them. And I just think it's a steady increase in interest, and it's just a part of it. And I think it helps.

I know everybody talks about scalpers. And I mean, I can't see myself waiting in line or anything, or, you know, bowling over people trying to get a, a box in that, I can't see it. You know, I don't like seeing that, but that's all a part of the cycle. And I think it's important to the hobby in that. So it doesn't bother me.

That doesn't bother me at all. Let's take the average person out there, a viewer watching this right now. What cards should they buy if they want to get the highest return on investment? The newer sets are being printed. just printed like crazy. They're doing, you know, extra runs and all that. I still think vintage, Watson era,

I still think are probably, I know right now you're going to pretty much pay for what you get and get what you pay for, you know, whether it's vintage or modern. Long term, I think vintage is going to outperform modern. Even though a lot of the modern sets, even though I'm not personally, you know, really up on them. What is there like 10,000 Pokemon now or something?

I just simply don't have the time to, you know, to keep up. Plus, they're doing four or five sets a year and having to do, you know, this, I don't have personally have time for that, but I know that they're overprinting most of them. And for good reason, you know, I mean, they're in the, you know, TPCI is in the business to make money, you know, they're going to try to maximize, you know, their profits. And they're doing a good job.

And still, the demand is outperforming the what's available. But most viewers out there are going to look to see what you're buying. Okay, he's buying Bayset, PSA 10, first edition Charzards. They don't have the budget for that. So, like, and they can't buy a part of it, right? Or maybe they can, but let's be real here. People want the actual card. Yes.

What cards should they? be buying if they have a budget of, say, $10,000? Well, you know, something that has, I think, outperformed the market steadily all these years are Pikachu's and Charzards in that. So any Pikachu and Charzards? Peacchoo's and Charzards, even stuffed animals, you know, a Pikachu, even, I mean, I was at a, I was in Scottsdale, Arizona last week for a show, and this lady had the, little tiny miniature vintage Pokemon that were made with 3D, what do you call it,

3D printing thing, in that little tiny EVs and little tiny Peacchews and all that, inner hand. And I kept it for about a half hour going through everyone trying to get the entire set, just like I always have done in that. But the Peacchoo's, there was only one. left. Everybody was picking Peacchishus even today. So I would say Charzards and Peacchoo's in these modern sets are probably the smartest. And before what year? Even if you get the new set that just came out or the first set, 27 years ago that first came out, the Pikachu on both of them, I think,

are a good investment. I really do. What do you think is the most undervalued card today? The base set trainers, I think, are undervalued because nobody, if you weren't collecting sets, you weren't collecting trainers. You know, you weren't super energy removal or item finder. You know, those guys had absolutely zero individual interest. So, but nowadays, nowadays people are going back and trying to complete those sets. And those cards were always the ones that were not treated the best. You know, they were, you know, played and thrown around and not protected. You know, you didn't waste a penny sleeve and a top loader on an item finder.

So finding those in good condition, I think, is a pretty, is pretty much undervalued now. And what do you think is the most overvalued Pokemon card? I mean, I would hate to say that illustrator. No. I don't really have an answer to that. I mean, things are worth what they're worth, and what are they over, what are people overlooking? Maybe a lot of the girl trainers are being overlooked in that.

And then a lot of the guide trainers are kind of overvalued. What is the most valuable card ever, in your opinion? I would say the first edition of base charzards. Let's say outside of Pokemon, what's the most? valuable card ever. You know, that T206 card is, I think is, you know, I remember when the King's owner, the Bruce McNaul and Wayne Gretzky, right, those two when they, and they had their, you know, I'd say that's probably the most valuable card.

I can tell you kind of an interesting story. I went to UCLA, you know, that was my school. You know, I went to college there. and our cross-town rival, which you guys would know very well, was USC. Well, at the time, O.J. Simpson was the running back and the Heisman trophy winner and the number one pick overall and an incredible player. Again, I was already had some age on me, and I was already a collector, and I grabbed every single rookie card of O.J. Simpson's I could find. I mean, I,

I had handfuls of OJ Simpson, you know, tops rookie cards in that. And like you know, the troubles he had in the mid-90s, my amazing, valuable collection of O.J. Simpson cards just went down to nothing. And that's why I've always appreciated a Pokemon. You know, Charzard's never going to, he's never going to do anything, you know, bad. You know, that's going to affect his value. With those, it was safe in that even the Star Trek cards.

I mean, I have all the Star Trek cards from the 70s. And, you know, I collected all the 60s, the 70s, completed all those sets, Adam's family, monsters, all. Every single one, I have at least two sets of everything that I know of unless something slipped by without my ever hearing about it. I mean, that was, that was, you know, pretty bad when that happened with O.J. Simpson. And so it kind of made me a little bit leery. I kind of got out of sports, you know, sports card collecting after that, especially being the junk era, you know, of the 90s, you know, with sports cards. And today I do collect some Shohei Otani cards in that,

and, you know, which have done very well, you know, especially recently, just because he was a real phenomenon and another thing from Japan. That transfers over well, you know, very well. Very good. You know what I really wanted to collect are the old Mars attacks cards from the 1950s. Love those. Yeah. For some reason, I don't think they've ever gotten any appreciation, but I love the movie.

I'm a fan of the cards, Danny Elfman, Tim Burton, all of that. And I think having those old cards in the 1950s would be incredible. Especially for you, because you actually have an attachment outside. of that. You want that. It's not like you got it and now you love it. You want that. I'm thinking now... I should bring those in. If I'm interested

in that, there's got to be a whole bunch of other people who was like, oh, that's kind of cool. And I tend to think, because this is what always happens to me. There's something I want, and it's just a little too much for me to want to buy it, and then at like 10x is in value. And I'll give you a few examples.

Andre Jick came to me, and this is early 2020. and he was saying, dude, I'm thinking about buying a first edition base set Charzard. He said, how much are those? I'm 50 grand. It's like, oh, wow, that's a lot of money. He's like, yeah, I'm not sure.

And I was looking on eBay and I see a few listed 50, 55, and I'm like, that's a car. I'm good. And then now they're worth 500 grand. And then I started looking and saying, okay, well, if these cards have shot up in value for the PSA 10s, the one that I think is undervalued at the time was the PSA 10 Japanese base set. And I said, why wouldn't that be worth a significant amount of money, too?

Because that was before the English. That was even earlier as a PSA 10. That's the rookie card. That is the card. And I remember they were selling on eBay for $2,000. And I wanted to buy one under $2,000 so I feel like I could get a deal. And I was bidding on one on the drive home, and I got to 1900 on eBay. And it typed in like 1975.

So I can get it under $2,000. And it sold for like 1980. Someone snipe it at the end for an extra like $5. above me. This is pissed off. And then I said, okay, what's the one better than that? It was the no rarity symbol PSA 10 Japanese charraz art.

And those at the time were selling for $20,000. It was $25,000. And I thought to myself, why are they selling so cheap? And I looked at the pop reports. I saw how rare they are, but I'm like, that's a car. I'm not going to do it. And now they're worth, I don't know how many

hundreds of thousands of dollars? The no rarity one is out of site. Yes. Yeah. And even the base, the regular base one, what are they selling for? 10 to 15K? So I tend to think, I'm like early to a lot of these things.

And if I'm looking at these Mars attacks cards that are so obscure, I can't help but think, is this just another mistake that I'm making by not buying them? Right. Well, I know they were popular when I was a kid. You know, they were popular. Were they Pokemon popular? No, but nothing's ever been. Right.

You can't gauge things against Pokemon, what's happened with them. But, I mean, they're great cards. I don't have them myself. You know, I think they started before I started collecting cards. I think my first card set was 1964, maybe, and that was Munsters, if I remember right. What do you think is the biggest mistake that you made when building your collection? Probably my lack of interest in Japanese cards in the very beginning. I had opportunities to buy all the trophy cards.

I mean, I would say maybe two, three dozen of the rarest promo, Japanese promo cards go through my hands at one time or another in 1998, 1999, 2000. They went through my hands. I had them, and I just didn't have an interest in them. I wish I would have shown more of an interest in the Japanese releases in the very beginning. Yes, you can imagine what I would have if I had done that. What do you think is the biggest lie that people tell themselves about investing in Pokemon? Maybe overspending on modern sets, on newer sets.

You know, it's not like there's only 15,000 produced, you know, like 27 years ago. I mean, now there's a million produced, and all those cards are going to be coming out. You know, they're all going to be making it out there in the future. may be putting too much reliance on an uptick in value of the modern sets. I'm curious for your own collection. How do you make sure it stays safe? Well, I have, like I've told you, five storage lockers. Three of them are security storage lockers, you know, where there is no getting in and out.

I only have one safe deposit box, interestingly enough, with the very, very most value. cards. My storage lockers are, everything is secure. My house, I keep almost nothing at home, you know, in my house, plus I have security gates, special security gates and cameras everywhere. If they did, because I do have some non-Pokemon things that mean a lot to me. And so I don't have any concern about, you know, anything. It's a good question because people are robbing stores.

They're breaking glass and they're doing all this because the value has increased so much. It's worthwhile for thieves to go after them. I have absolutely zero concern of that happening to me. Also, you have PSI identification where if your cards were stolen, people would be able to know exactly when those cards were being resold on the market. It's not necessarily that, though, but what if there's damage or like a mess? mega fire breaks out or something like that. Is there no insurance?

Yeah. Yeah. No, there's no insurance. There's no insurance that would be any good anyway. I know companies try to tell you differently. It's not true. But based on what Jack said, I had two cards stolen. I was at a show in Denver, Denver, Colorado.

And I brought cards for the kids to hold. You know, when they take pictures with me and that, they can hold the card. and almost none I've ever seen one in person, but this time in Denver I brought a BGS 9.5 first edition-based Charzard and a BGS 9.5 shadowless Charzard. And those are the two cards I brought to let the kids hold on to and look at and take pictures with them. And don't ask me how, they got stolen.

Those two cards got stolen. At the time, we're talking, you know, over 50,000. Yeah. in value. I never told anybody. I did contact the police and told them. I never mentioned it on a podcast. I never said a thing. Tuan, my wife was the only one who even knew it happened. And it just broke my heart that it would happen. Six months later, I got a phone call from a friend of mine, apparently, not really, you know, kind of a friend in Los Angeles who I had my phone numbers, so I must have had a transaction with him in the last couple decades, Zerzheim.

And he said, Gary, these two, he sent pictures, he said, you know, did these cars used to be in your collection? And I said, yeah, those were the two cars that were stolen from me in Denver, Colorado six months ago. He said, well, I just bought them. A guy, a store in New Jersey contacted me, and I, you know, I just bought them. And they're shipping them to me overnight, already shipped. I said, don't plan on getting them. You know, I said, it's not, you know, very unlikely. You're going to open the box. It's going to be nothing in there or something. that next morning they came in he opened them up and they were in there and I'll tell you the ironic part of it I said he called me I said you really got him I said yeah those those were my cards so he said well I want you to have them back

and so I said okay I contacted PayPal actually he contacted PayPal I contacted PayPal I contacted PayPal I contacted the police department. They got together in three days. I had, he drove up, gave me those two cards. He got his money back from PayPal. It was tens of thousands. I can't remember how much it was. The ironic part of it is one of those two cards had my autograph on the slab on the plastic and Chum Lee's autograph on the plastic. All the thief would have had to do was, take him out and no one ever went to know. This thief was such an idiot that he did not take him out of the slabs. And so people fortunately know my collection, right?

Was the person that sold your friend these two cards, the person that stole the cards from you? They wouldn't tell. I did try to find out. I did try to find out. They wouldn't tell me. If that's the, like, you mean they being the police? like you reached out to this card shop in New Jersey.

No, I reached out back to the police and tried to find out what the story but because of the investigation and it was a large amount. There was no way for me to find that out. Whether it was that store, somebody sold that store it. Because either way, if somebody sold it to them,

they took a big hit in that. When I got the cards back and I gave a real nice bonus to the guy who was honest. He never had to say a word to me, right? Every time I would look at those two cards at any point, even if it was pictures on the internet or every time I saw I would get a feeling in my stomach,

kind of a sick feeling in my stomach, because it reminded me of that horrible thing that happened. And I understand maybe I'm too sensitive in that, but that's how I am. every time I saw him, I would just feel sick to my stomach. So I ended up selling those two cards back to that guy for pretty much the price he had paid before. But then I got the cash. So, you know, I came out, okay.

Of course, I wish I had those two cards today because they'd be worth a lot more today. But, but yeah, that's what, that's the one time I was stolen, you know, that I got robbed. And how it happened, I don't know. If someone has $10,000 today and they want to invest in Pokemon cards, what cards should they buy? I think the PSA-9s, I think, are gaining a lot of credibility, you know, these days, especially after seeing so many of those PSA-9s can be cross-graded into tens in that, like with the illustrator, Logan's Illustrator in that. I would say a PSA-9 base set is what I would start working on. PSA-9 hollow, base-set hollow,

is what I would start. So I'm curious as a long-term collector, how do you separate something that is going to be around for a long time and be collectible for a long time versus something is just hype today? Although really quick, I just want to say that when Jack and I first started the iced coffee hour,

we had to figure out everything ourselves, from the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to find guests. Every day was a brand new challenge. That is why if you're starting or growing your own business, you know how valuable today's sponsor is, and that would be Shopify. Shopify is just like having an all-in-one business partner. They support millions of businesses worldwide from major brands like Chubbies and Jim Shark to people just getting started. Here's a fun fact.

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Shopify.com slash ICH with the link down below in the description. Thank you again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. The link is also down below in the description. Thanks again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. So I'm curious as a long-term collector, how do you separate something that is going to be around for a long time and be collectible for a long time versus something is just hype today?

Well, again, I think it has to do with our, you know, with our young people, with the kids. You know, what do they love be as collecting is retrieving memories. And the better the memories, the better the items going to do in the future, I think a good example outside of that is the 1990s Beanie Babies.

You know, that was all of our mothers and, you know, little kids didn't collect their Beanie Baby. You might have a few, right? But two things that went wrong since I mentioned Beanie Babies is number one, the disreputable ownership of that company.

Because as soon as something did great, you know, they would print, print, print, get all the money as fast as possible. Even with like the Princess Diana, you know, Beanie's, you know, which are valuable in that the fella did the same thing with that. But now we're talking about, you know, adults, adult collecting in that. If they were things that were around or of interest to us as kids, those things are safe.

Do you ever think Beanie Babies will be worth money in the future? Never. It never deserved to be. And it's all because of the ownership. Beamy Babies could have been, you know, real close to on par with Pokemon. They really could have been because it was a terrific idea.

You know, just little stuffed animals or stuffed animals are tremendous thing for kids and everybody. Little ones that are collectible was a tremendous idea unless you're a greedy owner of it, you know, like the fellow was. And, I mean, he didn't care that you pay, you know, $2,500 for a Princess Di Beanie. And then, you know, you know,

You know, the prize of your collection you love, you talk about it, you splash photos everywhere. And then all of a sudden he does another thousand of them. You know, that takes your 2,500, you know, way down. Pokemon never did anything like that. They never reprinted. You know, some of these modern sets, they're starting to reprint because of the scalper situations in that, because of the, because they want the kids to get them in their hands, you know, for a reasonable, you know, price. But I mean, they never did anything like that.

We asked you five and a half years ago when it was a good time to buy and you said, wait two years. What's your answer today? Because Pokemon saw that huge swing up. Yes. Should you wait to buy? Well, I would certainly wait until after 20, halfway through 2027. So for the next year, there's going to be enormous, you know, buzz and everything over the 30-year anniversary, that's going to attract a lot. So right now, I think things are overpriced. I think that's going to continue, you know, for the next year. I don't think the availability is really that far off. It doesn't really match to me. I think if you weigh the year, wait until summer 2027, you know, put those dollars, you know, sign, you know, get your 10% percent.

You know, and then you're going to use those dollars in a year. You know, something like that I would do. Got it. Well, in terms of grading, I'm really curious, since you helped grade 76 of the last 126 PSA 10 first edition base set charizards, what was it like in the early days? Because I did hear that it was easier to grade a 10 back then than it is today. Yeah, there's so much going on with PSA. I can tell you, I never spent more than $7 to grade a card. All my PSA 10 first edition base chariards, $7 to grade. Every single, I mean, I can even show you this. I don't know if they show prices, but I can show you all my submissions going back for years. And it's thousands and thousands and thousands of cards.

I never paid over $7 for one, for one grade, until a year ago, where I sent some in, went through this upcharge thing they have and ended up having to pay hundreds more in that. So that was very fortunate. I was able to grade a ton of cards you wouldn't grade today because price in bulk is prohibitive. You know, it's so high. What do you think is the difference between a lot of the grading companies? Because we see PSA, BGS, we see CG, T-AG, walk us through, like, what the differences are between these. And, like, is one better than another? Because I see, honestly, CGC getting significantly less for the same card than something like PSA.

CGC, I have a soft place of my heart for. They helped me with some charity stuff I was doing. and when they didn't have to, when I feel they were more of a benefit to our charity than I was to them in that. Matt Flynn, I mean, he was just, you know, so, so nice to me.

Because I, now, yes, for him, he would get his, he would get the cards with their title on. He had Collecticon put on the back. and I would give them away to all the kids that collect a cons, gave away thousands of them, right? But he never charged me a nickel for any of them because he was interested in autism charities in that. And so what PSA has been going through,

I would not grade a card through PSA anymore. I just wouldn't. Not until they make a change. Can you imagine you have your, Let's say you get the magic, the gathering cards, or you get these other Pokemon cards that you love and you send them in and you're so excited to get the cards back. And six months later, you still don't have them.

I mean, I've sent things in where I can't even remember what I sent in. Well, what fun is that? You know, the anticipation of the grade, and that is the fun part. I would not grade a card through PSA. And not only that, but on, I, I have, I'm going to say with confidence, now I wouldn't do this because of my age, but with confidence I can say that if they turned it over to me, within four months, I would have the turnaround time down to 30 days, and I would have the price per card for bulk back down to $15.

I say that with confidence that I personally could do that. Would that affect the bottom line? Yeah, it would affect the bottom line some, but long term, you can't always think short term. You know, long term, it would pay off. But I honestly believe that I could do that. But why do you see such variance between the same card between two grading companies? Like I see a CGC, PSA 10 Charzard selling for 100 grand, but the PSA one is like 250. Yeah, it's the reputation.

You know, PSA is for resellers. You know, that's where the bucks are. Is it always going to be that way? Not if they keep doing what they're doing. You know, they're really, and I guess you know, they purchased Beckett and they purchased SGC. Unless they make a change, that's all going to change. And what I think, CGC, I think, is a nice alternative.

The best alternative, I think, is tag. You can't be more transparent than scanning cards. and putting them on your website in that. Plus, the guys, again, with my heart, I love the guys that are running tag, especially Jesse and CJ in Canada. I mean, tremendous people, great ideas, really, really, really care about Pokemon

and care about the hobby. Tag is growing, and it'll continue to grow, but I think that transparency is huge. When do you recommend grading a card, and if you are going to recommend, any card company, I'm guessing it would be tag. I sent in some cards to tag for the first time showing that I really care about this, because I know within 30, 40 days I'm going to get those cards back.

And I know every single card I sent in, I'm so happy about, you know, nothing major, just fun stuff. Yeah, I would definitely recommend tag today and PSA better make a change. otherwise if I had money in PSA, it would be out today. How do you know when to grade a card? Well, I guess that's what you're grading it for. If you're grading it for resale, then the sooner the better, because I believe we're at a pretty good high in the market right now. The problem is you do it now.

Six months from now, they could be, you know, much lower. And now you're losing money because of grading time. Now, if you're a collector, I think any time is good. Because if you're trying to complete a set, you know, to Japanese base set to put on the wall or something, you can wait. You know, you can wait for that. So it really depends on what you're doing it for. One thing I brought up to Logan when we had him on the podcast was regrading, because I see a lot of videos pop up in my feed of someone receiving a card. They're like a regrading artist.

and they get the card, they like push the sides down, they clamp it, they even can like paint on the cards sometimes. And I think to myself, why do I not invest in a PSA 7, PSA 6, and then just wait for the card repair to get involved with AI or whatever it is that takes it to the next level, hold on to this card until card repair becomes immaculate, and then just get it regraded as a PSA 10 and sell it then. The most I ever did with cards, you know, many times in binder's cards are curved, right? And I would put those cards between glass in that and leave them there for a couple weeks, you know, so they would flatten out. Then I put them back in the binder and they wouldn't be, you know, curved in that. So I used to call that those two pieces of glass, my Pokemon Hospital, which is kind of like altering cards,

Right. But when I got them, when I pulled them, they were flat, then put them in a binder for some reason, the hollows curve, put them back to curve. But with what they're doing now, my concern is it long term. You know, you can fix those sides. I've seen these for three decades. What's happened to these cards, the curve comes back, or maybe the correction they're making comes back. or the painting that they're doing that matches the paint

can be determined or in the future maybe it would be determined you know, you know, with a special light or something. It's true. AI is going to get better on both sides. Yeah, on both sides.

That's what I mean. And it's also probably great dating as well. And what I wonder is like, is a PSA because you said Graham, it's easier to get a PSA 10 a decade ago when it is today because they've gotten more strict. So then does it make it more or less valuable to get something that was PSA 10,

10 years ago because it could suggest the card is actually in worse condition, but at the same time, you know it hasn't been tampered with. Yeah, well, I would think the condition of the cards were better back then outside of grading them in that because they were closer to the time when they were pulled, right? You know, back then we pulled them, graded them right away in that. So they were, these are the same cards we're talking. about, but 20 years later, so why would a card 20 years later, if it's pulled out of a pack today compared to 20 years ago pulled out of a pack, why would this one be better?

You know, they wouldn't be. They'd be the same in that. But if I had to answer that honestly, I would say overall they were easier on grading back then, mainly because I don't think they took the time to, they weren't that big of a deal back there. Remember, I was paying $7 a card, right? Maximum. Some submissions, I was paying $4.50 a card, I remember, in that, instead of minimum $25 today. How many cards come out of the pack as a PSA 10? Maybe a third. Wow. Out of 11 cards, if it was a base set, you know, 11 cards, maybe three, you know, something like that. And in terms of regrading, when you were on our podcast the last time, you had mentioned you had the only two BGS tens. Yes. And a third popped up. Yes. And you were confused. Who had the third? Yes. Turned out Logan Paul had the third that he bought from you as a PSA 10 and he cracked it and regrade it. And you had mentioned that you had tried to regrade this card in the past. I did. And it never came back what Logan was able to regrade. Yes. Do you have any idea what happened?

Well, I know why. The reason is I don't have 20 million followers. That's the reason why. Because that card was gray area. You know, nine, maybe nine, maybe ten. It was right. It was a gray area card. I gave him like eight of them to pick one.

Which one do you want? You know, here's eight of them. Pick which one you want. He went and he left. Look, and he looked, he looked. He never once turned the card around to look at the back. He looked at the fronts of all eight of them, and he said, this is it. You know, this one is redder.

The color was more red or sign. Never turned around see if there's a little white speck here or a little white speck here, which some tens do, of course. But then he cracked it, you know, with his tin snips, right? And he did it all by himself. I'd never cracked a case before. One little plastic shard could hit it. Yeah.

Costs him 100,000 or something. But then he, when I took mine in, they were for reviews or they were for crossovers. In other words, I went with Lee Steinfeld, Leonhardt, and I, because he's in Dallas and Beckett was in Dallas. And so him and I took about 20 cards over to see if we could cross grade any to a Becket. at 10. They didn't cross any of them over. But that one that Logan got, he instead of trying to cross it over, he cut it out and sent it in. And did it deserve a 10? Yeah, I think it deserved a 10. If he didn't do any damage to it when it cracked it. So you could have done that, but you didn't want to crack open the case. Boy, cracking open a PSA 10, especially a valuable first edition

base, no, I'm not that stupid. How would you do it? I asked Logan. I said, how could you kind of, he said, Gary, I'm a maverick. I knew, I literally thought he's going to say, I'm an athlete. Yeah, yeah. That's it. That's what he said.

He said, Gary, I'm a maverick. I said, okay, not very bright. Because you don't do that. You know, you can't do that. You just paid $150,000 for this card. And now so. And there was also a chance that he could have pulled it out and it got a nine. Oh, absolutely.

I think it was maybe more likely, yeah. But he took it to Beckett and Beckett, you know, him and his, because it was a marginal 10. I'm not saying it wasn't a 10, I believe it was, but it hit that gray area. Were you upset that he. got that time. Another great question. He didn't talk to me for two months after that because he was afraid I'd be upset about it. And finally he came up to visit. We met at the DeBrews warehouse, you know, just brought stuff to mess around with. And he said, Gary, I was really afraid that you,

that, you know, you'd be mad that I cracked it and I got the, Beckett 10, and I told him, I said, I couldn't be more happy for you than that. I said, I tried to cross it over. I never, ever, ever would have tried again. But I tried to cross over myself, didn't work. You did it. You're a friend. I'm happy for you in that.

And he said, oh, I'm so glad to hear it. He said, I've been avoiding talking to you because I was afraid of how you'd feel about it. once again, in my opinion, showing, you know, the character, you know, that he has. Do you find that some celebrity cards, though, just grade a little higher? Like, do they ever know at PSA that, like, hey, this is, just throwing out a name,

this is Justin Bieber's PSA 10 Charzard. It would be real nice to give him a 10. It's maybe a 9, but let's give him a 10. Or like, yo, this is Drake's. Venusaur. Let's be real generous with this one. Like, does that happen? I do believe so. I hate to say it. But had you asked me a year ago, I would have been more reluctant to say that. But with the way it's been going at PSA, how disappointed I am in them, and that wouldn't surprise me at all. Because if Joe Blow puts a card on internet, you know, on Instagram, you know, and shows off, oh, I got a

10 on this, you know, maybe 80 people see it, right? If Justin Bieber does it, 80 million are going to see it. Yeah. If would I be tempted myself to give a, you know, better, greater to go a little bit higher with Justin's card than with Joe Blow's card? Yeah, I would. So I do believe that, yes. So in terms of what PSA's response to that was, there was a whole podcast that I watched recently. where a grader said that for vintage cards,

it comes in and you have no idea whose name is attached to it, and it passes through several people. And it's like the general consensus between four to five people that come to a grade on the card. That's what they said. Yeah.

So I tend to believe that it's not like Justin Bieber could submit a five and they'll come back at 10, but if it's a nine, where it's a little dicey, then that might push it. But what do you say to the fact that they say, no, multiple people look at this card independently, and it's a general consensus. It's not just some dude who's having a good day or a bad day.

It was like, that's a 10. I would say it would not be hard to fathom that Justin Bieber's card would skip a few of those steps and maybe go straight from the greater to the last person. and get the, you know, the better grade. But what about for the average person who's submitting cards to PSA? How much of that is just luck? Or getting the right guy. It's Friday.

He's getting off early for a long weekend. He's in a great mood. And he just got a raise. And he's like, you know what? This card is a 10. The human side of it, I definitely think plays a part in that. Because there are cards on the first.

fringe. You know, you're going to have a deadlock, beautiful, pristine 10, and you're going to have a weak nine, right? But some of those are going to be on the borderline between 9 and 10, and now it's up to that greater to up it or down it, right? I think most of us feel like we don't get the benefit, you know, the up of it. I don't think I ever got a break. I don't think anybody ever knew which cards were Gary's back. those that many years ago. Yeah. Maybe today if I did, because now they do all know me, plus they do my autograph.

And, uh, but back then, you know, I definitely got no breaks. But I was always fairly satisfied with my results in that. What's the darkest side of the high-end Pokemon market that you've been aware of? I would say a lot of the, a lot of the negativity that there is. these days. There's times I don't even want to go on YouTube in that to see what's going on in that because there used to be, you know, like one real negative influencer, you know, like Michael Rattle, Rattle Pokemon, you know, who I respect, who I respect a lot. You know, I think he does a good job and I think he's actually good for the hobby. But now there's been a number of people that have

followed him, you know, to try to achieve some type of success that call their, you know, their followers, broke Timmy's. And, you know, I've worked too many years to try to promote the hobby and the positive side. And there's so much negativity now with the scalpers, with negative influencers, with, you know, stores, you know, stores being broken into. There's too much, and it affects me. It really does affect me, unlike ever before. So I think that's the dark side of the hobby.

The hobby has just gotten so big and so valuable that it brings out, you know, all this, all this stuff in that. And it's disappointing to me. One thing I was confused about is in our last podcast, you had mentioned Arita's signature on the Charazard. And I had no idea how big of an issue that would turn into. You had mentioned that his signature doesn't add value to the card. And that if he were to sign the card itself, it would devalue the card. And people called that out as disrespectful. Yes, especially the one girl.

For those that don't know, Mitsuhiro Arita, he is a Pokemon artist. and he has been for many years, still does today. And he drew that original Charzard, that base said Charzard. So how did you handle that pushback against a signature? I was kind of not new to life, but I was new to the Internet stuff and the effect that things could have. And so I spoke out about the negativity. You know, when I saw that, I responded, which I have learned since serves absolutely no purpose and only makes things worse in that. But I responded with truth, you know, with facts, you know, saying that I was not disrespecting Areta.

I was simply saying that Arita's signature that at the time he was charging $30 for. on a plastic case is not going to add value to a million dollar card. And if it did, what, $50 increase are saying? That's all I was saying. And that is 1,000% true then and now. And yet I was accused of disrespecting, you know, a Rita. And I made it clear that that was silly and that the girl was a kook, you know, for saying something like that, right?

I just acted the way I would in real life, right? Again, I don't swear, but kook, I'd go that far. So Jack and I were having a debate. Uh-huh. How much would it devalue the card if he signed the card itself? Okay, now I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that if he signs directly on the card that that would devalue it. I don't think it would.

You don't? No. His signature on the case, absolutely means nothing. But then why wouldn't you just have him sign every single first edition Charzar that's ungraded? Generally, my feeling

is that his signature helps the value of any card that isn't gigantic in value, right? But then again, now he charges $100, $150 for a signature. And understandably, he's got to make a living,

right? I totally get it. but I think you would have to pay a lot of money if you brought them a stack of Charzard to sign them all but I think it would help the value on them absolutely I would almost...

I'm not disrespecting them either I could say because I'm not in the Pokemon I tend to think it would devalue the card just purely because you have a surface of something let's say like an original vintage card the signature on the card itself when a signature is so prevalent

I can't see helping that value If anything, I think that would de-vace from a value perspective. I think on a newer card, like when Steve Ayoki signed my snorlax, I think, sure, that might, to a certain degree because it's a snorlax. But I think if it were something of substantial value, I think you would look at that and say, well, now it's been defaced. It's like signing, I said to Jack, it's like signing a Mona Lisa. It's like Elon Musk could sign the Mona Lisa. And I don't think that would help the value of the Mona Lisa. But do you think, because we were talking about this too,

is there any other signature on a Pokemon card that would increase its value? Like if Elon Musk signed a Pokemon card, if Steve Jobs signed a Pokemon card, like what signatures out there would increase the value? I increase the value. But if you signed the PSA 10 Charzard, yes.

You think that would increase the value of that card? Yeah. I think when you start getting to higher, values, maybe not at all or not as much. Me, I have signed First Edition Charzars, but I have no idea what value has happened, you know, with those. The card itself?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, numerous times. Old or new? Old ones. Yeah, original base set, first edition Charzarsars. Do you ever tell them, like, yeah, you might not want, like, you might want me to sign this card? Unless it's like a PSA want.

I don't think I ever have. I don't think I've ever tried to discourage. I have never, in my life, charged for a signature, okay? Everything I do is free in that. Have I ever advised that? I don't think I've ever said this is going to hurt the value. I just don't think too much along those lines, I guess. I, like, would Logan sign a illustrator?

Right. I think with unrelated people signing cards, I don't think those necessarily, if they're value, value cards of any type of value, I don't think that that would help at the very least. I think that could hurt. Elon Musk signing a first edition base Charzard. I can't see that being a good thing. Certainly his signature, PSA would authenticate. My signature, every single grading. company authenticate. They all have me in their files. And it helps the value of almost everything I signed for the people, which you can go on eBay and see right now,

because I don't charge for it, right? But that's for lower value cards. Yeah, you know what does help? I'm going to tell you. Cabuto King. When he signed that first edition Cabuto, I think it's sold for $50,000. Was it $50,000?

Yeah. His signature increased the value, and that was a one on one. Good for him. For those unaware, by the way, he is collecting every single first edition Cabuto and said those were like underappreciated cards, and he has a collection of like 2,000 of them. Right. And you could submit your first edition cabuto, and he will give you back a non-first edition signed. I think it was an excellent marketing strategy.

I really do. But I don't think he's marketing anything. I think he just genuinely likes to do it. He's trying to get him. And the population of what's available is definitely going down because he's trying to get them all. I just think it's a great idea what he's doing on a marketing business level. On a personal level, there were an awful lot of caboodos made, so I don't know. how that would affect it.

Another thing that came up that I'm really curious and I wanted to ask you about is I saw this video, Graham and I were talking about this before this podcast where you were unboxing a base set and you're pulling it out of the side

of the box. And then I read the comments and everyone in the comments are like, holy cow, he's trying to devalue these cards when he's pulling it out. And I looked at the video and it does look like transparently,

it looks like when you're pulling it out, you're being rather aggressive. Like I would not be surprised if something could have happened based off the way you were unboxing it. And I'm curious, what was the idea behind, or lack of idea, I guess? What was, what do you respond to those that are saying that? Yeah, I got absolutely murdered over that. Yeah.

Absolutely murdered over that. And this is a good place to explain the story. It was during a podcast with Steve, Steve Aoki. and he was selling the card, the packs, out of that box. They wanted to preserve the box, though, and the best way to do that is to slice the side and then hopefully, gently take the packs out. And then when you're finished, you have an empty box

with the shrink wrap almost perfectly around it, keeping it, which is, I've done that. I have some boxes like that, right? the problem was I was being rushed, you know, behind the camera, right? The guys were saying, you know, you hurry up, you know, get them out of there and that. And I got a little bit flustered. And so I quickly, you know, tried to get them out, which made it look absolutely horrible. And I admit that.

And I'm terribly sorry I had to do it like that, but I was being directed. to because Steve was getting them selling them. I had to get them out of there. It wasn't easy to fit them out of that thing. The good part of it is we graded those, Steve graded those as part of what he was doing. And we got 40, I think it was 48% tens. Wow. So they were all, they were unaffected by my apparent mishandling of them. They were totally unaffected. which was a good thing because nobody who received those packs complained about anything. They were all very, very happy. But did it look bad? It looked absolutely.

Like when you watch that, when you watch that video. Yeah, I'm sure it hurts you also as an investor of like these cards. Yeah, well, people said that you did that to like keep the value of your collection of a lot. Well, that is so silly that it's not. Because then now you have all the tens.

As if I care, you know. And there might, the odds are that there might be a charzart inside that box in between other cards that wouldn't be affected by that anyway. Oh, I know. That's absurd. That was a silly one. Well, I don't think it's absurd. I think it, like, it makes the, like you said, the incentives are aligned in the same way that PSA would happily grade Justin Bieber's card a 10, not like a nine. Because it gets more publicity. The same thing goes for like, if you own a bunch of these things, it would make sense when you're pulling it out to like, to, to, like, to. scratch up the card. So I wouldn't say it's absurd, but I also understand your perspective of like if you're sitting up there and you're getting rushed and you have all these things going on. Like obviously, it's going to be extremely hard to be very attentive and sensitive to the cards.

It's not absurd that somebody would do it, right. It's very absurd that I would do it. That's kind of what I meant because I have 52 PSA 10s and I was in and I've had those 52 PSA 10s for 20 years. I'm not selling them. I don't care about value. I never even look at the pop reports. I agree. I mean, you could have made a lot of money,

more money in Pokemon, or at least got some cash and, like, lived a lavish life. So I 100% agree. It does not sound like you're doing it for the money whatsoever. And when I watched that video for the first time, I'm like, look, knowing everything I know about Gary,

this was not planned out. But not everybody knows me. Of course. And so they might think something like, and if I looked at it with a neutral eye, I would think how cringy is this. Exactly. I would have felt the same way as they do.

Are you still the number one collector of Pokemon in the world? Yeah, I don't think there's any question about that because the majority of my collection, my Pokemon collection from Wattsies are very unknown to anybody in that. maybe there's one or two people in the world that know kind of what my collection really looks like. And the reason I don't, yes, the Charzards, those I did put out there on the Pond Stars, but my collections I don't put out there because I've always tried to help the hobby, and I think that would hurt the hobby.

If people knew how many of such and such I had, it could affect market. values in that. And so I'm, and the last thing I would want to do is hurt the, hurt the hobby. I would rather burn those than put them out there and hurt, you know, him, him, him, him, and her, you know, the value of their cards. So, yeah, it's very, very much a fact. I have the most valuable Pokemon collection in the world. There's absolutely no question about that at all.

And someday, someday, you know, maybe that that'll get out. You know, I'm kind of fortunate that my family lives forever. They all live in their 90s and hundreds. I'm going to last easily another 20 years or more. I'm not, I don't want to do anything between now and then to hurt the hobby. Would you sell me a PSA 10 shadowless Charzard? Yeah, I won't. I won't.

Is there a price or something we could work out? No, no. Don't think I don't get asked all the time. What about any other non-charzard card? If I needed the money, if there was a health issue or a family member health issue, or if I needed the money, I would sell everything I own, you know, for someone's, you know, a family member or something like that. I'm, you know, fortunately I'm not in that position where I have to, you know, would have to sell anything. So I have bulk stuff that I'll sell to friends.

I have sold bulk stuff that means absolutely nothing to me in quantity, but only to good friends. You're not a good friend. You're an average, you're an average friend. But he wouldn't want boxes and boxes and boxes of bulk for me. But TCA gaming, Rusty, I sold him a ton of bulk in that. And because he's a lifelong friend of mine, and he's one of the most precious people in the world, as far as I'm concerned. Zach Browning from Gemmin Pokemon, him I sold a ton of bulk to also. in that. And those are the only two sales I've made, at least that come to mind right now,

that I've given up, and that it was only to friends and it was only cards I didn't care about. And where do you see the hobby heading over the next 10 years? Well, I certainly think the hobby is very, very safe and maybe more than safe. You know, I don't see, you know, from 1999, that progression is just constantly going up and it's going to go up for at least the next 15 years, I believe, you know, when now we're 15 year olds and our 10-year-olds are 25 and 30. It's totally safe. And, you know, it's, Pokemon's unprecedented. You know, there's been little tips, little cues here and there business-wise over the last couple decades. Yes. But overall, it's unprecedented, number one media franchise in the history of the world, right? But there's little determined things, things that you can go by. The hobby is as safe as can be, in my opinion, for the next 10, 15 years easily. And it's probably going to go a lot longer than that.

I mean, you know, why do people still talk about Jordan's 1986 rookie? Why do people talk about Mickey Mantle's 1952 rookie? Why did people talk about, you know, cards going back, you know, the early baseball in the late 1800s? If I were to say 100 years from now, you'll be talking about Pokemon or, God willing, any of us are going to be, I wouldn't be exaggerating. Pokemon is safe.

So this I bought in 2020, it was during one of Logan Paul's box breaks. And I ended up getting a pack for $11,000. so I can make a YouTube video on it. And he pulled this Gerados, and I was too slow to send it to PSA, and then they got inundated. And then the weight went to like six months to a year, and I just held on to it ever since. But this is the card.

I want you tell me honestly what you think this would grade. You know, something really interesting about that time period. You did not grade it for that reason, right? You did not grade it for that reason. Well, there's tens of thousands of people that are not grading anything for that reason. They don't want to wait six months for it. You know, they or they'll send it to a different company in that. So that's one of the problems with PSA.

I did get some calls from Joe Orlando years ago at PSA wanted me to be involved with PSA. But I, you know, I didn't. It's a thick, huh? A thick stamp. A thick stamp one. I'm really nervous because I don't know what you're going to say. Yeah. Can I take it out?

Ooh. I've literally, it's never, it's never been out before and I'm like so nervous. Well, I went straight from Logan's hand into the sleeve and it's been in the sleeve ever since. Right. Okay. Well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to take it out. It kind of takes one of the areas, the surface blemishes that you can't see. But I can see enough already to.

to see it's not a 10. Why would you say that? Okay, the top to bottom centering on the front is a little bit. It might be within their 60, 40 parameters. It might be, but these days, that doesn't seem to matter to them, you know, those numbers.

So, and then on the back, the, it's actually really, really nice. The corners and edges, the one little tiny white dot on the top left, but it's not unusual on these to see more than that wrong with it. Okay, not because it's you. You want honest opinion. Honest opinion.

I think it is absolutely a very solid nine. Okay. But you don't think there's any chance of it at 10, or you think like, hey, this is probably a 9? You could be honest with me. I'm not going to be... It is such a solid nine. You can't take away any possibility of a 10

because it's too strong of a 9. And strong nines do get tens. So that's what I would say. But it's probably a 9. Yeah. It's probably a 9. Okay. But it's not just a 9.

It's a good 9. Okay. Now, Tag uses a... Something where they tell you how strong of a 9 it is or how strong of a 10. Is it in the top 10? 10% top 20% of n's, top 50% of nines. This, in my opinion, would come out to be a very strong nine. Does that take away any chance for a 10?

Absolutely not. It could absolutely be graded at 10. Would you send it to CGC, Beckett, or PSA? I would not send anything to PSA these days. Nothing. CGC, I would say, Send it to tag. Okay.

Because it's fun. You know, it kind of puts the fun back in grading because you're going to see your card. You're going to see the pictures they take of it, the in-depth. If they say something's wrong, they're going to show you where it is. And that's fun to see, you know. Plus, it's good to know, you know, where, why did they dock it? PSA is not going to tell you why they docked it. And is this card in better showing?

shape than Logan's Illustrator 10 this card is in better shape than his 10 so for what that tells you anything is possible yeah okay I mean I would not be surprised if it got a 10 because in my opinion it's a very strong

nine okay for some of these there's Logan's yeah yeah signature is that is that on the it's on the plastic sleeve it's on the sleeve it's on the sleeve inside okay he sent me a whole bunch of security things that he signed to only put them on anything I want. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, very nice.

Yeah, for some of these restoration services, though, why wouldn't I just send it to them? They fixed that little spot on the card and then they, like, maybe shaved down a little, like, on the top or something like that. Like, if they're getting good enough, like, why wouldn't they just be able to do that by, like, just a fraction of, like, a millimeter? Did I say anything earlier about, are those, uh, Are those, would you call it reparations?

Would they come back? Maybe. Did I mention that? Yeah, you did. I did. Oh, okay. Because there is a chance that some of those things that they're correcting will go bad again. We'll go back.

Yeah. And I would have to know that before I did that. I wouldn't. I wouldn't send it to have them repair anything. Cool. Thank you. I also brought as a thank you. to all the channel members, my entire Pokemon collection,

for you to review. So if you want to see that, it's a big thank you to all the channel members. We'll have that up for you as well. I want to see it, yes. To end this off, we have some one-word answer. Questions we've prepared for you, so you just answer with one word.

It's rapid-fire questions. Let us know what you think. Okay. If Logan Paul never entered Pokemon, what would a PSA-10 base set Charzar be worth? 200,000. What card do rich people secretly buy that normal collectors cannot afford anymore? Everything comes back to Bayset Charzards.

That's the card everybody wants. And if the people who can afford them, that's in that value range. What's the closest thing that Pokemon has to insider trading? It's kind of like you asked me, you know, some of these questions today where what I could move the needle a bit, right? And the whole reason you're asking me that is kind of like you're collaborating with me that where you and I are going to really pump up

this card or something. Like Mars attacks. Someone goes and buys a whole Mars attacks collection. Yeah, leave out the Mars attacks. Otherwise, they're going to be too expensive for you and I to fight over. I know. I'm about it.

Lastly, we got to ask you about your charity. I'm curious, what are the recent developments of it? What are the main goals in the future? And what would you like to share about it? Yeah, well, you know, I think the greatest story is from the past, you know, from how did that become a priority of mine? It has been my entire life in that. And I'm going to tell you a story of how it started for me my interest in the charity work. back in the late 60s when I was in my mid-teens in that I was very involved in drugs in psychedelics and you know things that were around for it was common you know back then and I got very sick and I quit and just to jump head for a second I've been sober to this day not a drink

not a drug, nothing, you know, for 50 years. Wow. I sick, 55 years now, 57 years. But because of that, I got involved in helping other young people that were on the streets. I was from Hollywood, right? You know, Sunset Boulevard and in that. And got involved in Narcotics Anonymous. And, you know, went through my...

my treatment and did well. And I met a lady that maybe you wouldn't, you would know of her maybe, but not, she was an Academy Award winning actress in 1949. And she was the voice of the devil in Exorcist. And that, her name was Mercedes McCaumbridge. She did a lot of work with me, with Senate subcommittees and things like that.

Me as a teenager and her as an Academy Award-winning actress, we did a lot of things together. And she drove at home how important it was that I do well and how important it is that I help others do better in that. It also affected my entire life. I've been early for everything in that. And I learned that from her also. she would come to the house to get me.

She would come early, park on the street, and sit there until it was exactly the time to get to the door to come and get me. And she made a clear, in her opinion, the most important thing you can be is on time. Most important thing. Obviously, there's, you know, extenuating circumstances. But still, I learned that from her. Plus, I learned the value of charity in how the charity, isn't for other people. The charity is for yourself.

The charity is for what kind of person you are and that you're going to turn into and the benefits that you're going to experience because of it. And so my entire life I've been interested in charities, Chris Camillo, who you have had on your podcast numerous times, one of the best examples of charity that I can think of, at least since the beginning, was from him. He walked up to me at a card show years ago.

I didn't know him, never heard of him. He apparently knew of me. He walked up to me in the lobby of a hotel with a box, and he said, Gary, this is for you and your charity. At the time, it was brain health and autism with Steve Aoki. And he said, Gary, this box is for you, for your charity, anything you want to do with it. And walked away. Wow. A guy I never even saw, I'd never heard of them before, right?

A first edition-based Pokemon box. Even six years ago, that was worth a ton of 100,000 or something. No, that was 250. Yeah. See that? Yeah. See that? And I mean, even now I get Misty thinking about it, right?

I think it just, you know, makes me think, just makes me see the positive side of everything that we're doing and what this is all about. And that ended up growing into Pokemon saves the world that we were all involved in together. and now, you know, to get to present day, my wife, Tuan, honestly, she doesn't need to work, right? She's 50. I hope she doesn't mind me saying that. But she doesn't need to work. But she is a special education teacher, has a master's in special education, and goes in, every day comes on with bite marks. you know, things like that.

But she absolutely loves working with disabled children in that. And again, she doesn't need to do that, right? And then our work with Steve, and then, you know, through our charity, our autism charity, we also have an autistic daughter, an 11-year-old daughter, who has autism in that. So it's all the shows I go to, my interest in collecticon,

the dollars that came out of that and have come out of that steadily has all gone into our autism charity, autism instruct. And so it's pretty much been our whole life this last at least 10 years. It's been a part of my life for my entire life. And you asked about the future as long as I can, I'm going to be there for that because it's good. for me. Well, that's a very noble cause. Yeah.

We appreciate that a lot. Viewers, if you do want to learn any more about any of the stuff we've spoken about on this podcast, your information will be linked down below. Great. And of course, for the members, we are going to be reviewing Graham's portfolio. Thank you so much for... Portfolio, Pokemon

collection. Jack's so used to portfolio this... Yeah, well... Portfolio Pokemon collection. It might qualify. Yeah. It might qualify. Graham's Pokemon portfolio. We'll see. You tell me. So you guys will see Graham's $30 in his poikpont. Hoikimmon portfolio. Thank you guys so much for watching.

Of course, we would not be here. If not for you guys, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, Graham. Thank you, Gary. Until next time. Until next time. Thank you.