The Iced Coffee Hour - Confronting My Ex Boss

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

This week on the podcast Graham confronts his first boss Chris Turnier. Chris hired Graham when he was 12 to work for his coral store where he learned skills that he still uses to this day, as well as where he continued to learn about the aquarium hobby he loves. Enjoy!  Consulting Inquiries: [e-mail] Chris’s Artwork: https://www.fisheyefineart.com https://www.etsy.com/shop/FishEyeFine... Add us on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan Official Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBQ... GET YOUR FREE STOCK WORTH UP TO $70 ON PUBLIC & SEE MY STOCK TRADES - USE CODE GRAHAM: http://www.public.com/graham GET 2 FREE STOCKS ON WEBULL WHEN YOU DEPOSIT $100 (WORTH UP TO $2300!): https://act.webull.com/invite/share.h... Join the weekly mentorship group: https://tinyurl.com/yaexko4o The Equipment used: https://tinyurl.com/y78py5g2 Audio Equipment Used In Podcast: Rode NT1, Rodecaster Pro The YouTube Creator Academy:   Learn EXACTLY how to get your first 1000 subscribers on YouTube, rank videos on the front page of searches, grow your following, and turn that into another income source: https://bit.ly/2STxofv $100 OFF WITH CODE 100OFF  For Podcast Inquiries, please contact [e-mail] *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up you guys? I just want to take a moment and give you a background on today's guest. When I was 12 years old, I started working part-time at a company that sold saltwater, fish, and coral. And it was this job that really shaped the entire way I looked at life, work, and business. My old boss, Chris, who you're about to see here, was the one who gave me a chance and set me up on the trajectory that would eventually turn into real estate and now today on YouTube. But I left that company when I was 17 years old, and since then we had not seen or spoken with each other in over 14 years until now. Here's that conversation, and I'm excited to introduce the person who's made all of this

possible in the first place. So enjoy. Welcome to the 57th ever, iced coffee hour. My name is Chris Turnier, and so far this podcast has made $68,718. $718 of 74. Wow. That was good. I'm shocked.

That was perfect. I'm at a loss of words. That was the best one I think we've had so far. Ever. It's true. You're lying. You're lying. You're lying.

You're lying. Jack never lies. It's true. I can see it in his face. He lies. More importantly, it's an honor to have you here. An honor to have you here. It really is.

I am being honest when I say this, this is the episode that I have been looking forward to for years. Like before even the iced coffee or before YouTube, being able to do something like this, I have been looking forward to this. Now, you obviously know based on the title, but you are my first boss ever back when I was, I think, 12 or 13. 13 years old. No, that's like, I don't think so. I don't think it was quite, I think you're, I think you're lying.

I think you're lying. I think Jack is lying. Jack is lying. Jack is lying. Yeah, I mean, I get, I mean, because when I left for Fiji, it was 2007. And so where were you in 2007? Just barely leaving. I was barely leaving the company in 2007.

Right. So, but at that point, you were, you graduated high school, I think, right? And then you flunked out of college because... No, flunked out of high school. And then because of Reefer Madness, because of my company. Yeah.

So, and then so, I mean, we weren't robbing cribs at that point, but... So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to remember. At that point, I'm not sure if you were working for me for four years or five years. I'm not sure. Yeah, I think I was 12 or 13 when I started working with you.

And for those that are aware, you say Reefer Madness. And people are going to assume it's something else. Smoking the reefer. Is it not? No, it is not. It is not smoke. It's a reefer because we are technically reefers.

Yes. So reefers basically mean that you're keeping a reef tank. It's an aquarium with corals and tropical fish. And yeah, it's a crazy addictive hobby that I've been doing for a long, long time. So it's still just as addicted to this day. So it's something. So when I was 12 years old, when I was, yeah, Yeah, I think it was either 11.

I was 11 years old. I was 11 years old, and I got bit by this saltwater aquarium bug. And my mom was not about the saltwater tanks. She thought it needed too much maintenance, but my dad was on board with it. And so we ended up getting a saltwater tank set up. And at that time, I would spend all of my free time, basically, after school on, like, reefcentral.com, which was basically, it's a forum of other aquarium enthusiasts who would come together and talk about their love for like keeping fish and coral and we would share our like thoughts

and about husbandry and like how to grow this stuff and I would be getting home from school and basically from like 4 p.m. to 9. I was on ReefCentral.com. Just like posting. And there were live people on the other end that were getting back to you? No, they're robots. You're kidding. No. Yeah, mostly robots. It's right. It's a good lie. I feel like. Who do you think I'm talking to online? Yeah, they're crazy. Crazy. You're in.

sort of question on it. If you go online on a forum, who is on the other side? It's a forum. Who would I be talking to? It's not a bunch of bots, no. Who would I be talking to? It's crazy addicted.

Oh, so it's a human. Humans. It's a forum. It's got thousands of users. Yes. Like, imagine Reddit. Yeah. Okay.

But imagine before Reddit and communities like that, there were bulletin boards and forums, which would basically be a website that you go to with like different sections. I know, I've been on forums before. Okay. So that's what it was. So they're humans on the other end. Yes.

What forms do you go on? one where there's not a human on the other end. I just say. I just say, you know, all right, get it clear. So there are other people on the other end. Were you one of these other people? You used the forms? Yes, I was. Actually, at one point I did a lot of, because there was a lot of questions about specific

horals and how to care for them and what this is and what that is and where to put it in your aquarium and so and so forth. So I would go on there, try to ID stuff, try to tell people what their care was. It was a lot of work. But yes, I used to do that a lot. Yeah. So I was really into this. And I would say maybe when I was like 13 years old, there was this guy.

His name was Dave. And this sounds super sketchy. Like looking back at this, like if I had a kid, I'd be super sketched out. If the kid comes and say, hey, I want to go over to this guy's house and see his aquarium. How old is he? I don't know, in his 40s. And he wants to invite me over to his house to look at his fish today. And he's pretty sketch.

He's a great guy. But he's really nice guy. So this guy, Dave. And it's not so terrible. Dave and I had talked on long. for a while. I can't say this guy. Did he say he was 40 online?

Or did you know that when you met him? See, that's a robot. It sounds ridiculous. So I was talking to this guy, Dave Online, and he was on Reef Central, and he was posting what's called a frag swap. And basically what this is,

I know it sounds ridiculous. What this was is when other aquarium hobbies would get together, they would frag a piece of their core. Like they'd basically chip off a piece of the coral and they trade it with other people and you could grow it. Dave wanted to do a frag swap, which is basically a big... With you?

He was the only one there at the frag swap. So he was doing this big backyard frag swap. We're basically all the guys online, we're going to get... It sounds... It sounds... It sounds... It's just the way of the same. I mean, there's no other way to explain it.

Anyway, it was called it from Backyards, frag swap. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Can you move my mic or something? I'm sorry. Keep going. A backyard frag swap. And people would get together and sell their fish and coral and little pieces of it.

And I was like 13 years old and I begged my mom. I wanted to go to the frag swap. So my mom said, yes, we can go to the frag swap. And we got there early, by the way, so she could meet Dave. And so she met Dave. Dave was a really nice guy. Like, over the top nice. Like the type that he just, he just, he,

just wanted to help a kid out. And he saw like how into fish and coral I was. So everything that day was was so much fun. I was able to meet a lot of the, it says we able to meet a lot of the people online that I was talking to like on the forums. And I, I, I, the local forum, right? It was Los Angeles, Southern California. Southern California. Yes. It was called the Southern California Reefers. Yeah. Yes. There's the reefers come in. So I was able to meet all these people that I talked to online. And I don't think any of them knew how old I was. Because I just had my screen name online. I don't think I really told anybody.

I'm not going to say. It's embarrassing. Because then people are going to be able to look it up. I don't even remember. The ultimate reifer. So embarrassing. Pineapple house. Oh, that's right.

I remember. Yep. No, I remember. Because I really, I really like SpongeBob. I really like Spong. And so I figured, Pineapple House. I don't know.

Okay. So now you can look me up on Reef Central. But anyway, so that's, was my screen name. People didn't know how old I was. But anyway, so I show up there and everyone has like a little name tag in my, like pineapple house graham. And I'd show up and, uh, and basically meet everybody. And I was so excited to be able to buy like pieces of, uh, fish and coral. And you had, uh, a friend and employee Andy. Yep. Who was basically sent to this frag swap to represent the business of Riefer Madness. Riefer Madness was one of the biggest, one of, you were a big

sponsor on Reef or Madness. You mean on Reef Central. Let me say it again. So Reef Central was a big sponsor of Reef Central. So you'd always see the banner at the top for Reef or Madness. And Andy was sent there to be a representative of Reefer Madness. So I met Andy selling a few pieces of fish. And I think at that point...

I don't think you sell pieces of fish in this report and the hobby. Say it again. If you do pieces of fish, it's more like sushi. So he was selling sushi. That would be really expensive sushi. I say again. Like a blue tang, like a little Nemo. If I can say that, I don't know, but little pieces of that, usually...

Just on the rice. Yeah, you can't frag a fish. Got it. Yes. Thanks for clarifying. Okay. Yeah. I don't know.

It's been a while since you had a tank. So you might have forgotten. So Andy was selling pieces of coral there. And I think Dave made the introduction to Andy. And I was, like, enamored that, like, someone from Reefer Madness was there. And I think Andy said that I could come by the warehouse and just check it. out. And I told my mom, like, we could go after school. We could go to the warehouse. I could take a look at this. Which warehouse do you, I mean, you probably get that. So it was at the Pacific Oka Farms,

Walt Smith. Walt Smith. It was by LAX. Yep. And my mom said, yes. So we connected with Andy, drove down to Reefer Madness, and you were there. And I remember the first time I was there being like blown away. Like this was a kid in a candy store moment because I had my, my, my, aquarium set up and going to like the local fish stores one thing but being able to go into a wholesaler of like i don't know 10 20 30 thousand square feet a fish and coral all in like huge like it just long raceways right yep water coming hundreds of fish thousands of corals and to see this i was just like blown away that like this exists and everything you could ever want was like was there and so i was introduced to chris and i think i was just so blown away at

like looking at everything and I knew all the names of everything. I studied every name of every coral out there and I could be like, oh, that was a Montepora Capricornis. So this is an acropora and abelis and like just all these names. And I think you offered me a position where like if I wanted to come in after school, I could help out. What was going through your mind at that point? Like I'm some kid walking into your business just picking out names and fish and coral.

Well, the funny thing is about people and well, and the reefing hobby is that, A lot of folks, they're into the, they're into like the mechanics of it. They're into like the plumbing. They're into the lighting, whatever. But in this, in your situation, you knew a lot at that age. I mean, I think you, you know, you pretty much astounded me to be able to name a lot of those corals. So when I see, I don't see it often, even now, after doing this so many years, it's very few people that actually can pick up and identify those particular corals.

Because not only do you have to remember a scientific name, But you also have to remember the common name that was used in the, in the aquarium and the reefing hobby. Yeah. And there's hundreds, thousands of names. Each company, I mean, especially nowadays, each company has their own name. Some, some they use from company to company. But a lot of them are unique to the company. And so you knew, I mean, back in those days, it was a little bit different than today because today you're fracking a lot.

But back then, especially for Reefer Madness, Reifer Madness actually used, sorry, imported, forals from Fiji, from Tonga, from the islands of Fiji, from islands of Tonga, from Indonesia, so on and so forth. And you're getting colonies, you're acclimating those colonies, you're photographing those colonies, and you're shelling those colonies. So you somehow, I don't know why at that age you would be so into it, knew that. And I'm like, game on. And, you know, and I think, I think at that point, we just said, yeah, why don't we, you know,

see if he can do it part-time, start helping out. out with, you know, whatever. And I think it, and five years later and you flunk out of school. Yeah. I don't know if that was the best decision, but, you know, it's good. So back then, was it because you wanted the help? Or was it because you just like the enthusiasm? For me, it's always about enthusiasm.

Okay. If you have, if I'm going to hire somebody, I have to have that enthusiasm. Because if you, if you don't have the enthusiasm, it's, it's hard to, you can't force, you can't force that. the desire to learn that particular stuff. Like for me, in the example, you know, from, you know, some of the finance stuff, you know, you do a lot of that stuff is, you know, I try to remember, but naming a coral, you know, figuring out that species of fish, boom, it's like, pamp, right in there. Yeah.

So that's, that's kind of the thing that, you know, that's, if I see it, I, you know, I like to be able to, what, kind of cheesy term, but nurture it in that sense because it, it helps us in the long run for sure. Right. Did my age concern you about being like, I was probably 12 or 13. I'm sure it did at the time. I can't really remember. I mean, that's a long time ago. Right. But, you know, that's what, 2003? Yeah, 2003. So that's a long time ago. And that was before we even moved to our, you know, the second location. Yep. So yeah. No, I'm, I'm sure that was the main thing. It's just the enthusiasm. That makes up for, you know, 90% of it for sure. I was so excited, too. It was every Tuesday and Thursday.

I get picked up from school and either my mom or my dad would drive me over to the warehouse. Your dad had the Ford Explorer. Yep. I remember the red, I think it was red. He had a green one. I had a green one. And the red was later. That was the upgrade.

The red Ford Explorer. All right. So I didn't remember something. Yeah, yeah. The green Ford Explorer would drop me off. And then I forget, my mom would go and like read a book sometimes, which I hated. I hated that she would like be around all. I just wanted to go and leave.

And then let me do my thing. but sometimes she'd stick around and like read a book, which I didn't like that. But my dad would just drop me off and then come and pick me up sometimes like 9 or 10 o'clock at night. And I didn't even want to leave. And there are several times too

where I would be there until probably 11 p.m. or midnight. You would leave usually around 9. 13 years old? Yes. I was working. I loved it. So we would have these shipments come in from, I believe it was Fiji

and maybe Tonga. And Tonga too, yep. That was the main suppliers. Those are the main suppliers. Right. And they would come in at like 4 p.m. I would help unpackage some of these, the coral and then photograph it. And sometimes like on Thursday, I was photographing Tuesday's coral.

And then on the Tuesday it was photographing Thursdays because we had to give it enough time to adjust to make sure it was okay. And yeah. And I just was obsessed with photographing as many different corals as I could. Because we get boxes and boxes. It would probably be sometimes 100, you know, 150 corals in a shipment. Right. So, and you're unboxing them, you've got these big boxes.

I mean, we call them coffin boxes because they're huge. Yeah. They're massive. And each box would probably hold, you know, between eight to 16 corals, I'd say, for an example. And then we'd be unpacking those. And then you have to put them in a certain location in those tanks with a good amount of flow going by them. You let them what's called polyp out. and polyps are the little,

they have a little, like, discs coming out all the sides of the branches of the corals, and those have to open up before you can photograph them. So you've got to give them that amount of time to be able to open, and that was your job. Yeah.

Would you stay until the work is done, or would you finish up the work and kind of just hang around and look at the coral and stuff like? Both. I would hate to ever leave a job when it finished. But if I finished early, I wouldn't tell my parents to pick me up

because I would be there. I loved just being able to look because I could keep the lights on. And I don't know if that was responsible back then. Because I was the only one in the warehouse, like 13, maybe 14 years old. And I had the code to the front. And I think I had a key or something like that. But I would be the one at like 10 or 11 p.m. Remember you tell me, do the code.

And then I'd have to lock the door when I left. And I loved it. I loved having the whole place to myself. We had the radio going. And I could control the lights, which I thought was the cool. So, like, I could keep the lights on above the coral. And, yeah, I would just, I would ideally just keep going until I was finished,

but sometimes there's too much. And by like 11 p.m., my mom or dad would say, oh, this is enough. We got to stop. But I would just keep going. But, yeah, and I think. We were responsible to getting those uploads done for me. So that was kind of was a pretty important job.

Who was doing the job before Graham? Me. You were? Yeah, most part, yeah. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was my responsibility.

I mean, the main thing was, is always reaching your deadlines for those, but making sure that those products, because the cool thing is, and it's unusual, I think, even to today, is having what you see is what you get products. Or so you're, you were one of the first to do that, by the way.

Yes. And actually, that was before Reeframadness. That was a company that I, that I was one of the managers for a long time, prior to that called Flying Fish Express. and that was, oh gosh, that was 90. That started 97. And we were the first one at that point to do the what you see is what you get corals. The whole industry, the whole hobby progressed with the development of these halide bulbs.

Now they use LEDs, but back then like what you have on your reef tank. Now back then they were halide bulbs. And the whole industry kind of started to make a move to more. of a blue light because before they were using like yellow 65K look like sunlight. All the corals look brown and green and they didn't look very good. But we started making this move toward this blue lighting. And it just made the corals pop. It brought out this phosphorescence.

So that was the whole goal is to produce these. What you see is what you get corals. And that was what you're, you know, that's what your job. Taking those corals, photographing them, making sure that the color was true using Photoshop.

an SLR camera at that point. Actually, I think we were using your camera. It was at Sony. Yep. That thing was killer. It was a killer. That was an amazing camera back in the day. Yeah.

It was a Sony cyber shot. Because we used something. It was a big, it wasn't quite as good. But then you brought your, you brought your Sony in this huge barrel. I had a Carol's Ice lens. Yep.

And that thing. And even to that, I mean, those Carl's ice lens are, yeah, they're really good lenses. So yeah, so back in the day, that was, that was, yeah, I'd still consider that a decent cameras of this day, which is amazing. It was able to get really good macro shots, which back then, by the way, I think this was like a seven megapixel camera. What are they at now? How many megapixels do they have now?

These cameras right here, no, like 22, but how much do they cost? Over two grand. All right. So I found it. Okay, so this is it. Sony Cybershot F707 5

5 megapixels and this is the camera Yeah I think it was bad That was sweet Yeah Back then 99 bucks You get 100 bucks

Yeah back then If you want to be a burgeoning reifer And take some photos There you go Get one of those You'd actually be You could still get some decent Yeah

This was like The camera off camera Right now in iPhone We're probably Do like 10 times better but this was the camera to get back in 2003. My iPod Touch, like fourth generation, was like five or seven megapixels.

That's funny. Yeah. But back to Reefer Madness, the other thing, too, that was unique was that you were one of the first to really go online with fish and Coral and sell individual pieces and the what you see is what you get category. What sparked that besides the Flying Fish Express?

What made you want to go off on your own from that? Well, I was also one. of the, I was the very first and I'd get cursed at because of it, but to actually name, attempt to name corals down to a scientific level and actually give them specific names. Because before I came around, they, it was green acropora, for example, which was a specific, green stag horn or blue staghorn or, you know, whatever, purple, you know, whatever. And so I took it to the next, to make it a little bit more personable because reefers, as we call them, are very, they're addicted.

They love it. So the more personable you can make the coral, the more you can assimilate with something in real life, I think it also does well to tweak their interest into, you know, following, you know, kind of like a breed of dogs, a breed of cats. It does well to try to get their excitement. growing even more.

So I think that was part of it. But just the technology has come along, you know, came at that point, was even was coming further. And then the, like I mentioned about the blue lights, the 20K bulbs or the 15K bulbs, someone and so forth, they, that also brought out a lot of corals, the colors that you didn't see previously. Right. When did you come up with the first name?

Like, really naming the corals. That was actually flying fish expressed with those clams. Okay. We started. But we went even further. We started, you know, doing names that were get even more off the wall. You know, I don't know if I could say this, but, I mean, one that always sticks out to me like Supergirl's nipple. I mean, just we had some crazy, you know, that was a name of the corals.

That was a name of one of the corals because it was a coral that it was blue and green. I did, of course. It was blue and green and had all these like projections. It was all the projections. And when you would cut one and when you'd frag one off, it would be, you know, pointed so on and so forth. So, and then somebody would glue that to their rock, to their live rock, to their structure and their reef tank. And yeah, so, you know, I had all sorts of those. Well, I did some, uh, Refermanus.

US. Yep. I did some stock and watched the, the, uh, speech you, you gave. Oh, which one? Which one? I don't know. It was one of them, but, but this is the screenshot. Uh, and we'll, we'll put this up on the screen for everyone to see here.

But you know what? I want you to. Oh, so, yeah, there it is. But I've got much better images. Okay. Yeah, I just a screenshot. Okay. Oh, yeah.

See, some of those are nuts. I've got to find one is. So before we go into some of the names, your reasoning behind this, these names was that it just gave a more personal touch. Yes. The coral. Yeah, it just made them funny.

It made it funny. It made it, I mean, it made it to the point where just like clickbait, it, forward to coming to that page because they would see, they would see these crazy, these off-the-wall names that, whether they purchased the coral or not, it made it, it made it that much more interesting.

We came up with some really wild names. It was, it was, the more it didn't make sense, the better. Time to sell your kids because, because we have this outrageous something, something and something. Yeah. We, we had some like, your wife is going to leave you after you buy this like, Crazy core. Just like we had nutty names.

Is the coral community? Just like, are they, the people are? It made no sense, but a lot of people would purposely come to the website. And the website had, it had a consistent schedule of refreshing. So you knew, I think, at like a certain time on like a Thursday morning at 9 a.m., the website would refresh and everyone would come to the website. And they would either see the cool colonies that came in or they would read the names for fun. Because the names were all so just, they made no sense at all.

but they were funny. They were off the wall. It was different. It was nothing really out there. Yeah. There's nothing. I mean, still, I mean, to this day, I don't know. How much did it take to start the business?

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how much it was a lot we had this this guy named skip who actually did um the the a lot of the web development. He basically did the web development. I never liked Skip. I never liked Skip. Skip was always very short with me. What qualms did you have with Skip? What did he do to you?

He just was never friendly. He was, at least to me, he was never like a, like a overly, he wasn't a warm guy. I like Skip. Skip was cool. To me, I mean, maybe because I was the owner, but whatever. But, you know, maybe you were just, you know, you were kind of snotty to him. Maybe, maybe I was. Maybe I had the.

attitude. But maybe it was at the end of the day and he didn't want to deal, you know. Potentially, yeah. So, but yeah, he built this, and he built this guy, this Monty, our mascot. And he did this, I mean, three-dimensional artwork for it, which is pretty cool back in the, even the day. He took this, these colonies of zoanthids, which are these singular polyps that have all these crazy colors. And he stretched it out of a three-dimensional, stretch it around a three-dimensional frame. And he built that. And he built the structure of the website.

And then we had to pay rent to Pacific Hawk of Farms. so because we were renting we actually rented uh raceway space so this from these raceways these long raceways that we we talked about earlier um and we paid rent for that and for an office where we did our our photography work um do you remember advertising and what's that the rents do you remember how much the rent would be i don't i don't remember okay i don't remember a thousand it was probably around there okay it was probably around there um because i do remember that when we do moved to our own location, you know, several years, a couple years later, that it was, I remember the rent was quite a bit higher.

I mean, and it was, it was more of a struggle for sure because, you know, the electricity and for, you know, because we were running these massive thousand-watt bulbs over our systems, the electricity went much, much higher. So the rent and the electricity and, you know, and so on and so forth. So the initial cost were, what was the website. And the website really didn't change a whole lot over those years. I think, but I think we were using Dreamweaver for the structure of the website.

But it wasn't a database-driven site either. Because back in those days, so it was really just people emailing us the number of the particular coral, and then we would, and then my lovely wife would actually go in and with her customer, amazing customer service, would mark those particular salt, and then, you know, the people would pay for it.

Wait, wait, wait. So was there not a checkout? No, not back to those days. What? Wait, so wait, how did this work? It was like basically a first come, first serve. A lot of it. Via email?

So you would have to email. Yes. I think it was like Christine at Reeframadness.us. Yep. With the skew that you wanted. Yes, in the beginning. In the very beginning. Wow.

In the very beginning. And then I think we progressed toward a, you know, toward a shopping cart as it worked. That was one of the main pushes. Wow. I'll see, yeah. For the very beginning, yeah, it was, it was, it was not a shopping car. It was not database driven.

Where did you get the money to start it up? Because 15, 20 grand for a website back then that's plus all the overhead. So it's like 20. Yeah, Walt and Deb. And, you know, we kind of worked together and made that happen. So, yeah. Wow. So it was a chunk of change.

But they were doing, you know, importing from Fiji and then, sorry, exporting from Fiji and running Pacific and supplying a Pacific. Galka Farms. Yeah, some of those, it just kind of progressed and worked. And I might be off on that 15-20 grand, but I'm pretty sure it was pretty close because how much artwork and how much time. I mean, like I skipped, skip worked on it for quite a few months before it was really before it was ready.

What was that like running your own business like that? Because taking it from the small little raceway to then having your own shop, having, I think it was two employees plus myself. It was Andy and Mirna. Andy, Mirna. Yeah, and I was there. And then, yep, Graham. I don't know.

It was all natural. I don't, it was a natural trend, you know, and then Christine, of course. Yeah. It was just, it was, it was just a natural move to, you know, to running that, just to, to growth in general. I don't, I don't know if it was all conscious or not. I think it was just something that had to be done. I do remember, you know, working 36 hours straight one time and almost, I almost actually fell off the top of, of a catwalk where we,

the raceways. I was so tired. It was like the 35th hour or something, trying to get the, trying to, we had a deadline to try and get this, this warehouse going because we were, I think,

shut down for a couple weeks because we couldn't, we didn't have any corals. We were moved out of Pacific Farm, off Pacific Aquafarms, and we were trying to get this, this warehouse up and running. And I just remember working 36 hours on top of this catwalk, trying to set up these lights and everything started.

getting, you know, wonky and, and I, like, had to catch myself on one of the, on one of the bars. Otherwise, I would have, like, gone head first, like, 15 feet down under the top of the raceway. I don't, that probably would have been very pretty. But luckily, you know, we made it through and we got those systems running. And we got saltwater from, we had a big saltwater bin. We got what we actually brought water up straight from strips. UCSD, they had a, they had a, basically, there was a company that was. getting water from kind of a deep, deep off of San Diego County and it was trucking it up to us.

And that's what we used for our, for our systems. And yeah, it was just a, it was just a, it was a cool, it was a cool time. It was hard. Yeah. I remember how much you were working, like all the time, late at night, you were constantly, even weekends, Saturday, Sundays. You were working nonstop. Yep. Yep. And I still do the same. Nothing is changed. Yeah, it's not much change. So I was, I'm a little confused. So you were what, the manager of Reefer Madness? No, I was, no, I was owner.

I was part, I was part owner. So yeah, I basically ran it. Yeah. You're part owner of Reefer Madness. Yes. Got it. What was the day-to-day business like? Because I knew, I remember being like, I think I was 15 when you moved in.

It was 2005. and seeing some of these orders come in for $1,000 or like $1,500. And in my mind, to me that was all profit. Like I didn't get the concept of like you have overhead. You have expenses. Like everyone working there is getting paid. It's electricity. So I would think, wow.

Like I thought back then, like you must. You, yeah. I'd see these were like $6,000. And I'd be like, wow, $6,000. Yeah, like $25 orders a day. Right. Yeah, we had good business. But yeah, no, because you have mortality.

So because these are living corals, and unfortunately, sometimes those corals don't, you know, don't make it. They don't survive the shipping. They have some issue that comes in later. Yeah, so it didn't always do well. You have overhead. I mean, the place to, the, sorry, the cost of heating the place or cooling the place, the cost of FedEx, the cost of FedEx, the cost. the cost of advertising the cost. I mean, it's just one thing after another.

It was not incredibly profitable for selling colonies on the other hand. Selling fragments. Now, once you get a fragment, you start something, that can become, once you get a self-sustain, you become a gardener, then it becomes a bit more profitable. Let's talk a little bit more about Graham, Graham's relationship with you as his boss. Okay.

Okay. That really excites me, you know? Let's talk about it. So obviously, the relationship between a boss and his employees is very unique because, like, you have one person giving orders, one person receiving orders. Was there ever any flack between Graham and you? Was there ever anything that you told Graham to do that didn't sit very well with you, Graham? I'm trying to think if he ever gave him. me any kind of flack.

I don't remember. He was pretty damn good. See, the problem, we're trying to. We're trying. Maybe Graham remember some. But I mean, I'm pretty, I was a pretty easy guy to work for the most part. I just wanted my deadline. If you reach your deadline and you, you know, you did a good job.

I think you got a little whiny sometimes when I asked you to re-edit photos. Sometimes you got kind of whiny about it. I mean, he was making, like, at the end, I think he was making like a buck of coral. So if we're doing like 150 or 200 or 300 or 300 corals a week, that's for, for a, 15, 16 year old, that's making good, that was bank. Back then that was bank. I mean, you think about it. You can do, I don't know how many corals who were processing an hour. I try to get to photo shot. Oh yeah. 100 corals was my minimum. If I was going in. Per hour? No, no, no, no, no, no. per hour. No, per hour, I think it was anywhere from 15 to 30, depending on what it was and how quickly

they could turn them out. Like sometimes the bigger colonies took longer because it was difficult to Photoshop and get it accurate. But like sometimes the smaller things, just knock them out, knock him out, knock him out, knock him out. But yeah, he would definitely get whiny sometimes when I would ask to go back and re-edit some of those because, I mean, it was a lot of work. But, you know, I had, you know, I had an expectation of what stuff had to look like. Even to this day, I do the same thing, very similar to it. And I, you know, I will say, okay, I got to get, you know, this has to have. to look like this and that's what look good because in my brain I know what the coral looks like.

Yes. And it has to look that way. Otherwise, it's because the problem is, is if you produce a coral that, that isn't quite right, the issue is that if the colors are off or it's too bright or too saturated as, as this industry believes that a lot of these corals just don't look the way they, they do in real life. You have to be able to tone back. You have to increase. You have to pull it back. You've got to crop it right.

You've got to have the right. It has to be clear. It has to be concise. It has to be, you know, it has to look right. So you're saying some sellers would turn up the saturation of the photos to make it seem like the coral was more colorful than it actually is. Because in coral, you want it to be very colorful and vibrant. Right. But not overly so.

Because if you do it overly so, then you've got, it's basically a false representation of a particular, you know, the particular coral. So you got to make sure. And you see these astronomical prices sometimes for a coral that one, a customer receives it. It doesn't look quite right like that. So back in the day, and colonies actually back when we were doing it like that was it was actually even more difficult because obviously the technology wasn't quite the same. But it was it was very easy to get carried away. For some of these corals because they're coming straight from the island. It's only a couple days here and, you know, in a captive environment coming from the ocean.

They get, you know, they're basically collected by, you've got, in Fiji, for example, it was, it was this massive expanse of 3,000 square miles that you could collect from. And these divers are going out to specific dive spots every day collecting these specific corals. And it basically equated to it. It was a super, I mean, they did a study, they do studies on it every couple of years. And you, it's like a four. Forestry forest, you can have up to 3% of a forest and it's sustainable. So they found with the studies that they were doing that the collection in Fiji was 0.001% or something.

It's crazy sustainable. So you're going out there with a hammer and a chisel and you're finding a specific coral and you're clipping it off right there at the base of the coral where it's growing into the reef. You knock that out, you pop it off the rock, and then you place it up on the boat. I'm sorry, you get a big collection of it. You place those corals up on the boat. Then those are transferred to the main warehouse. They're acclimated for a couple of days or so. Then they are bagged up, shipped out all the way to the United States or wherever they

were going. It's a lot of traveling. It's a lot of travel. Yep. So the shipping costs back then was in these big boxes like we talked about earlier. That was, that was, you know, part of it. And then you have to take those corals the way that they looked in the ocean is one thing. but then once they travel and they ship,

they lose some of that luster. And one of the reasons why we had such large lights, the 1,000-watt bulbs on our systems was to try and bring that color out. And with those 1,000-wad bulbs, you could do it reasonably quickly. But the same thing, you had to make sure that you didn't oversaturate those

to make it look like you're misrepresenting the coral. And then, you know, it sells like that, and the customer gets it and you complain because customer service in this particular, was very, very important. So I remember a few things. I don't ever remember getting any flack from you,

or Andy. Not that I can remember. Maybe there was something I did wrong or I messed up something. I think maybe the worst I've ever done is probably I've shipped the wrong coral. That probably happened at some point. That's the only thing I could think of

like an honest, because sometimes they look very similar. And sometimes I will have picked a piece. Oh, and you know what we would do to make sure because everyone was held responsible for what they did. we would put our, I think it was we used to put our initials or like, you know, A or G on each order

so we could always look back and be like, this order came in, it was damaged, or this wasn't correct, who backed this order? It'd be like, oh, there's a G, granted. And I think maybe once or twice I had shipped the wrong coral by mistake. They look kind of similar. Sometimes if they close up,

it's almost impossible to tell what's what. So I'm sure I probably did that at some point. But I would say I learned quite a few things from watching how you worked. The first one was customer service. And the customer service, I remember, it was so important for you to make sure the customer is always right. And I remember even we had a few, like, troubled customers weren't always the easiest,

but you would always give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if you knew, like, they were wrong, they were complaining, they just want to be difficult, you would always make it right, even if it cost you money. And I remember quite a few times, too, if there was like a good customer or someone who's brand new, throw them in something for free. And I think the cost of that to you was very little. Throwing an extra piece of coral that maybe had broken off but then started growing again. Throw that in the order. Always give more than what they pay for every single time. Always make sure the order is better than what they would expect. That way, when they get it, they're going to go

online, be like, wow, I order this from Reef for Madness and I got an extra piece of coral that they threw in for free. Stuff like that. I think the overhead was very little, but they would order again. because of that. Yeah, the customer servicing was really, I think, the biggest thing for me. And that's the thing I've carried on this entire time, is always giving the customer more than what they would expect, even on YouTube, just making free videos, they'll always get more than what I received back. So that was really important for me.

Graham told me that, so I noticed one thing that's really interesting with Graham, is that he has like a no, no questions ask refund policy. on his teachable, on like his courses. For 20 one day. Yeah, link down below. So, like, he has like a YouTube creator academy which teaches like strategies to grow YouTube channel and stuff like that.

And people will ask for a refund maybe with some really like weird justification, right? And Graham will always offer them a refund within the first was like three weeks, four weeks. No questions asked. Sure. Let me refund you immediately. And he said he learned that principle for you. That was you.

Yeah. Even before we had even talked about this. It was, it was from you doing that. that I was like, makes sense. And we get people, by the way, we used to do 30 days, but we would notice that people on the 30th day, on the 23rd hour. Like 23rd hour and 30 minutes in,

where it's like a 30 minute window, hey, I got it. Wasn't what I expected. You said that we could get a refund. So I want my refund. And you go and look at their progress that they've watched the whole thing. And on that, like, it's not a coin.

They just want it back. Yeah. And then unfortunately for us is that, like, once that 30th day passes. The payment processor doesn't allow you to issue a refund. Yeah. They cancel you out and you'd have to do it out of your own PayPal. Exactly.

And they charge you fees on top of that. So then I have to pay out of pocket and eat the cost of the fees. And for them, they're like, well, technically use it within 30 days. And I'm five minutes away from the 30 days. We do it anyway. And my reasoning was that if you get one unhappy person, they'll go online and say, he didn't give me a refund. It wasn't what I expected.

And if that causes 10 fewer people out there to want to give it a shot because of one bad review, it's not worth it. So I got that from you because you didn't want a single bad review. Especially on Reef Central, it's such a tight community that if one person says, I got something from Reef for Madness, it came in not as advertised, they wouldn't give me a refund. They weren't willing to work with me. They're terrible. Everyone else to be like, wow, I should stay away. But that was from you. Yeah.

Yeah, I always, my thought was always that if the publicity is good, but in bad publicity, you know, can take you only so far. Yeah. The good publicity is that if you have something, if you develop this, if you nurture it and people will actually come back and protect you. Yeah. The community will actually come back online, you know, Facebook, Instagram. what if you start getting some bad publicity you will get somebody that will say hey they actually made it right for me yeah and that is everything yeah that is absolutely everything so i always thought and i never had much business you know um education per se i'm a i'm a fisheries biologist by by schooling i mean i got my fisheries degree so this is all self taught and it was all just common sense to me in that sense is that i always thought that i needed to to make sure that the customer, as I said, as you've heard through ages, customers are always right. And they are right. And to an extent, if you can fight it

and fight a good fight, then yes. But for that, for the most part, you're like, yep, all right. Yes. Let's, let's, let's, let's move on. We got to, we got to keep moving. We can't dwell in the past because you've seen sometimes where they just battle. Oh, they just battle. They go at it. You see the, you know, you see the, the, the customer and then you see the response and you see the customer again and it just gets nasty. Yeah. And is that what you want? Because what do you, what do people remember? Do they remember the good or they remember the bad? Yeah. And almost always, most people remember the bad. Yeah. Especially if goes on and on on on. That's very true. But that's one of the reasons too, why if you look up

any reviews for the program, there's not a single bad review. And very few people could ever say that about anything that's selling it. You got to have a bad review. And it looks like artificially too good. because there's not a single person who says that I got this, didn't like it, I asked for a refund, he didn't give it back to me. And if anyone is honestly upset, they're given a refund and they get to keep it for free. So I don't think there's a single bad review out there

in two and a half years. Not one person has ever said that they've been disappointed. What other really important business principles did you learn from Chris? Yeah, honesty. So I remember, I hated doing this. You made me do this. So sometimes these corals would come in and they would get brown.

Like they'd come in like blue or purple. And just if they've been sitting for like five to seven days, they would kind of turn brownish. They didn't look the same as they were online. And you would have me call up to the customers and tell them that the coral they ordered doesn't look like it does online anymore. I hate it because I felt bad. I'm like, they're going to get angry at me.

If I tell them that their order that was about to be. shift out the day doesn't look like that and if they want something else instead and i i got so nervous getting on the phone and uh like this is before like you could just text somebody i prefer just like to send a text but their phone number would be on the order and it would be up to me in like one of these big handheld phones press talk dial on the number hi is this john hey this is graham with reefer madness how's it hey yeah and talking to the like i was so scared that That's funny too, because I bet, like, you'd be like, hi, this is Graham for Reifer Madness.

Like, who's running this operation? Yeah. Hello, this is Graham? Yeah, no, I don't know. But everyone was really, and they really appreciated the phone call. Like, no one was upset ever. Some people would be like, oh, man, that sucks. What else you have?

And sometimes it would be, you know, back and forth with, you know, taking a picture of something else and sending it, or giving a store credit if they wanted to get something else. But everyone was happening. happy that you were really honest, even if it wasn't that big of a deal. And there's a few times where I've said, like, I don't even notice a difference. Like, it's like 95% the same thing in Christmas. You still got to call him because if he gets it and they're not 100% happy with it, it's going to look bad on us. And so sometimes you're overly cautious. Like, hey,

Coral doesn't look to say, if you want a discount on this, we could, we could do that. We could give you a store credit. You could still ship it. You don't have to get it. We could throw in some stuff for free to make up for it. But there's always something where they got more than expected. even if they didn't get the perfect order. Yep, that's true. To me, it just gave me the confidence of just, like, being able to work around, like, adults and be in that environment that I felt, like, really set me apart. Because once I started working, I hated school.

Like, I was never a fan of school to begin with. But once I saw that, like, oh, wow, I could do something I really enjoy doing. And in the beginning, it was, I was working for free and getting paid in fish and coral. And I'd, like, save up for, like, a sunbursts, antheist and be like, okay, I've worked this. This week, I could get a somberst antheus at the very end of it. But once I started doing that and then like making money, then I was like, what's the point to school? And I remember I'd be sitting in class. This was, this is because of you. I would sit in class and think this is the biggest waste of time in this hour. If I photoshopped 20 pieces,

I would get paid $20. And the opera, and like, before I knew about opportunity cost, it was like, I could be making $20. I'm $20 poorer now. because I'm sitting in a class not doing something with my time. I'm wasting my time. And it was after that that school was just, I hated it, did not see the point, didn't want to do anything other than just work.

So you're saying Chris is the reason you flunked out of high school. 100%. Yeah, because once I got my driver's license, that's when it all went downhill. Because before I was relying on my mom or dad to drive me, so they could kind of control how much I worked. and my mom like Mondays I couldn't go on like certain days

it was Tuesday Thursday and sometimes Fridays so they could control like how often I was going there but once I got my driver's license I would go not every day after school I would say probably three days a week after school I would just drive down to Torrance

and just work and I don't know if you knew this but my senior I think it was my senior year. So I was, I was 17. So this would have been kind of the tail end of it. I made up a condition. And I, I found a fake doctor's letterhead on Google. Printed it out. And I, and I, and I, I, I, I, I, I, I, did a fake signature that said, this is so stupid. I had a condition of, like, rare condition of sleep apnea that prevented me. Shut up. You never, you didn't tell me this. Yeah. That prevented me from getting a full night of sleep. And I did, well, I did that. So, so that. So, that I could skip the first few classes. Because I didn't, because it's like,

you were working so late. I don't know if I was working late. I just didn't want to show up. Or I just didn't want to go. Yeah. Okay. But yeah, so I said I had a sleep apnea.

They believed it. I don't know how they never called. They believed it. So I skipped all my morning classes. I don't know if you're saying a very good example here for the younger generation. Most are, our demographics are probably, are mostly they,

so they say 18 to 35. So they're probably out of school. All right. They're already there. Or, getting close to that point. Getting close to that. They're going to write,

and I don't know if that would work. I don't know if that would work now. No. So I would basically skip all my morning classes. So that was good. And then I made it a weird goal of mine. I made it a goal of mine to miss one day of school every single week. And so I would go.

Yeah. And I was a goal. Yeah. That was a goal. One day. And I did it. How would you miss? So I would call it pretending to be my mom.

And I did a good imitation of my mom. Did, have you heard this thing? I don't know if you have you. ever did it. See if I could do it without laughing. Hi, this is Stefan. I'm so sorry my son Graham isn't feeling well this morning. His condition of sleep acne is not, he's not feeling well. I'm laughing right now. But yeah, I could

imitate it and I'm doing a bad job because there's people here. Dude, that's good. That's really good. And I forget what her name, her name was like Tracy at the front desk. And she'd be like, oh, we're so sorry. You know, no problem. We'll see him tomorrow. And I would just, and I don't think my parents knew this, but I would just often work for, for madness. What did they think when they saw your report cards and stuff like that? My parents. What did you think of Graham skipping all of this school?

Chris wasn't there during, it was Andy. Andy was there. Andy was a bro. Andy was just like, I think even once he called in for me. How old was he at the time? Late 30s, probably. At that time? Yeah, mid 30s, late 30s.

Somewhere in there. I think he's pretty close. So maybe a little bit older than I am. Yeah. I'm not, I can't remember. Andy called in once or twice for me. Or I think I gave his number as like the doctor if they needed to verify. And I didn't know this.

I don't think he did. But I would work during the day because I was afraid if you knew this. I was working at home. Yes, right. I was working at my house. I was doing the customer service, answering all the phone calls, doing all, and doing some of the updates. I would name the corals.

You would edit them. Yeah. I would name them. I would get them up on the site, on the website. So I think a lot of the. days that, you know, that I was, I wasn't up at that, you know, at the, at the warehouse. Yeah, you must have been. I was there.

You were, you were there when you, shouldn't, shouldn't have been. No, I was there. Andy was, I have to ask about that at some point. Yeah, ask Andy about that. But I think you only came in, was it twice a week? I think it was Tuesdays and Friday. I came in when the, when the shipments. So Tuesday, Thursday.

So I could see the corals right when they, right when they're in bag. And so I could, so I can know that whether a coral needs. You know how it would look. Yeah. Needed to look for the website. But yeah, my grades suffered because I had zero motivation to do any work at all. Like, to me, school was just a waste of time. But wouldn't your parents encourage you to get good grades?

I think they gave up. And I think, uh... Well, if 80's going for you at that point, really. Like, damn, there's not much we can do at this point. I'm in too deep. I'm in too deep. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, my dad was disappointed, but he was, my dad's very easy going. and my mom was upset,

but I was, she, you just didn't care. I just didn't care. I really didn't care. And I was up front with my teachers, with a few of them that I was just like, hey, I just don't get it. Because they would ask me, like,

they would think something's going on at home because I'm missing, missing all of these days, I'm constantly, like, sick. I was honest with them. I'm like, I just, I don't get it. I just don't have any interest in learning. You're saying you went up to the teacher.

And they're like, why are you like not showing up to school? Yeah. I just don't get it. Why don't I have to show it? Yeah. Join to negotiate with the teachers. There was, yeah. Well, I went to this school that was a little bit more alternative.

The smash? No, no, smash was elementary school. So I was on a scholarship at New Roads High School. How'd you get a scholarship? I've applied. Yeah. Well, not a scholarship. Maybe, what is it?

Financial aid. Oh, like a grant or something? Yeah. Like a financial aid. It was financial aid. They had a percentage of students in there that couldn't, whose parents could not afford the tuition that were admitted. And they only admitted a few a year.

And I just happened to be one of them. Chris, what did you think about Graham flunking out of high school? Did you have any opinion on that? You knew my grades were bad. Yeah, I knew they were bad. It's a little fuzzy at that point. I think we were getting ready to move to Fiji. So I think part of that was a little bit fuzzy from my recollection.

But, you know, I don't know. At that point, you know, who knows? You know, we didn't know where you were going to go for that point. But because I was winding, you know, Reefermanis was kind of making a different transition. So, yeah, it's hard to say. I don't really recollect too much. But I'm sure I was disappointed somewhat because it's, you know, not really a. great role model in that sense.

I mean, now you are, of course, in some ways. But, you know, it's, yeah, it was, I'm sure I'm sure I probably wasn't happy because I was kind of led to that, but, you know, indirectly or directly. Right. You know, but, you know, when you have your passion, and that was your passion, you found your passion that young, then how can you, how can you frown upon it in that sense? I mean, yes, obviously the standard is to go get your, get your high school diploma and get you know move on to college you know university whatever

but um if you found your passion that early yeah you know then you're what about with your kids you you have two yes boy and a girl yep do you want them to go to call are they going to college right now they're already in college yeah um they started going to the cool i mean nowadays you can do um i'm i'm a you can do dual enrollment in florida you can do dual enrollment which is pretty cool as of a as a junior you had actually take college classes that that um you know that that you don't have to replicate in high school which is pretty cool so you can take you know your basics um your sciences and your maths and even economics and so on and so forth in call in the community colleges um local um and it's pretty

cool it's a pretty cool system um and yeah so there are my son's in um he's going um he's marine biology in ucf right now university central florida and my dog daughter. She is a pretty cool high school, Harmony High School. They have a veterinarian. You can basically get a certificate of veterinarian as a high school. So you have to do a certain amount of volunteer hours. I think it's like 500 volunteer hours. So yeah, they're running the gamut. But I mean, this last year has been strange because they've had to do most of the classes at home. But they're, you know, they're rocking it. They're killing it. They're doing great. I just want to know a little bit like, like you worked for him for what four or five years yeah how did why did you stop working for him did you fire grand did he

do something wrong no i left him i said later i'm going to fiji and you left and you moved the business to fiji no actually i were i started working uh my my business partner for riefermannis walt smith i started working i basically started working for him um and his wife um running the mariculture farm uh in fiji so i that's what i basically ran i i i i i basically ran i i i I left Reefer Manus. Why? I never understood this because I think when I was like 16 or 17, I just,

I never understood like behind the scenes or like why that happened or like, yeah. For some people, yes. I got that question a lot. Like, why would you leave your running this company? You're owning this company. My understanding was that why would you leave?

My rumor or like, I guess what my understanding was that you got an offer to sell your portion and that it was it was just such high stress such big hours and it and it made sense to take a step back that was my interpretation i don't think anyone told me this i think that's just went through my mind not i mean not really i think it i'd always had a dream we'd always my wife and i really had always have a dream to to try to do a little bit more um try to make a little bit bigger impact and I always thought that running say like a coral

farm um out in the ocean was I mean it was it was I mean how many people have that opportunity right to be able to run a farm a coral farm on the other side of the world and living in a completely different you know uh culture

I mean because as Fiji is uh it's it's a it's completely different it's not something that you can you can't take the same things that you can from here you have to go to like four or five different grocery stores to get this, the groceries that you would, you know, here, you go to Albertsons or whatever and you pick whatever you eat up. There you have to go to, you know, a meat market.

You have to go to a grocery store, one grocery store to get your milk and another grocery store to get your butter. And then the farmer's market to get your vegetables. Wow. Yeah, 2007, I think, is the last time we've seen each other. So, yeah, long time. Yeah. Long time, yeah.

So have you followed, like, did you, did you find out about a YouTube channel? Or we kept in touch briefly about 10 years ago on Facebook. A little bit, yeah, Facebook. And you had mentioned something about artwork because I was doing some artwork too. When I came back from Fiji, I started doing some art. And you were saying, oh, yeah, you should post it on Reddit and so on and so forth. And I couldn't figure it out. Okay.

But yeah. Yeah, but I always, you know, I followed your, your. You know, I see your Facebook posts about your Hollywood, you know, all the, the actual properties that you post on Facebook back in the day. And just like, damn, this, you know, he's got it going on. You know, yeah, may have flunked, but he's, you know, he's the classic, you know, that, yeah, school wasn't right for me, but I found my niche. So, yeah, but yeah, always followed you. Always followed you. And then your exponential growth now on, on, you know, on YouTube, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's incredible to see. So. Yeah. But. But. But. But yeah, I mean, I've always, you know, watched from afar and, you know, thought it was, you know, thought it was, yeah, it's, you know, hats off to you, bro, to be able to take what, you know, those, you know, what I, what I taught you indirectly, or directly in that sense and, and nurtured your, you know, your, your, uh, your passion for, um, you know, for your goal to have a lotus. And that was always what, I always remember, your goal to have a lotus, that, uh, that orange lotus that, uh, you know, that you had, you know, you had, you know, day, you know, you know, day. Dave's, not Dave bought one, but Dave Palmer and Pacific Aquafarms, and you'd see it every day. And you'd just like, man, it's got to be mine. Yeah. And so yeah, and to see that, to be able to take that and to see what you've, what you've driven from there.

It's amazing. Yeah, for me, it was just a lotus. That's all I wanted. When I first saw that lotus and like, that was my only goal. It was just, I want enough money to buy a lotus. that was it that's that that that was jack with the tesla jack wanted the tesla really badly yeah but not yet not yet not yet i tell jack my advice to jack is that as soon as he gets the tesla it immediately it's going to be something else but it's really nice to have that carrot to have that little carrot dangling

you was that the same for you like once you got the lotus you were just like yeah what's next yes really yeah what was next uh how different House? Yeah. But for a while, the lotus was it. When I got the lotus, I'm like, I'm set. That's it. Don't need anything else.

As long as I have the car, I'm chilling. But yeah, that lasted about six months. Then I was like, okay, next is I got to get a house. All right. Yeah. Well, speaking of artwork, I got something for you. I don't know if you want to. This is what I do on my spare time when I'm not working at worldwide.

Corals. I've got something. This is my other... This is kind of like a housewarming gift, I think, here. So this is what I kind of do on my side. I take these... Oh, wow. I take this barn down in Tennessee.

It was one of my stops. And I basically carve tropical fish on my free time. And this is called a candy bag. And it's basically carved. I draw it out. I carve it. And then I paint it. And it takes me hours and hours and hours.

I probably have 100 plus hours in that piece right there. This? I see how detailed it is. If you put like UV light on it, you'll see a whole different animal. Oh, we got a different fish. Wow. It's got scales. Yeah.

We'll get some B-roll of this. Wow. Even the per cent. out with the... Yeah. I carve... Well, I mean, I've got a... I've got a jigsaw.

So I draw it out my hand. I draw all the, you know, fish and an enemy... That is so cool. No. This would actually look really good against the black to find some spot. Part of me wants to put it by the tank, but I feel like it just... It wouldn't stand out enough.

Yeah, okay. Well, we're going to find some spot. If you can, like, hang like a UV light on it. Okay. Like blasted. You know, you can find in front of the tank or whatever. but if you can just like a spotlight on it. It's so cool.

So it's, you know, it's kind of a, it's kind of a cool little. Do you sell these? I do. I do. I do.

I don't, you know, I don't make a lot of them because I work so much. But I, so they're kind of a limited. I will never probably make another one of these ever. Okay. Of the candy basket.

Wow. So it's kind of, it's a limited edition. You'll, you'll never see one. Well, you know, we'll put the link in the description.

You might sell out pretty quickly. How many are for sale right now? There's a few. There's a few. But it's always something I work, you know, working for. There's a link in the description, guys. So I have a feeling you'll sell out of these. So the link in the description you could get one.

They're pretty cool. Thank you, man. Yeah. I love the level of detail. When you see this thing, it's nuts. Yeah. From the gil plates to the different fins. Yeah.

Like everything is just like looks like. It's a hundred and 20 year old piece of, you know, barnwood. Wow. It's white oak. so um thank you yeah so yeah so that's somewhere something you can uh you know because i see you have some you have some really cool artwork around your place so yeah this i think will go um we'll go well with it mix in well with love it thank you so much yeah very cool you're gonna see a lot of subscribers now be like i got one i got one i know i'm gonna get instagram pictures look at what i got graham and yeah

like i said i mean i i feel like i owe like so much of just what i've learned along the way to Reefer Madness and like having that first job and just getting the experience of working at a young age and like being able to like be surrounded by adults and see how people work and like the business behind it. Even if I didn't fully understand like what I was doing or what was involved was so important for me. So really like sincerely thank you for that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the corals part of it, you know, like I said, I work currently work for worldwide corals and it's an it's an amazing place to work. And I mean, it's it's spectacular. All the different corals we have a 1,500 gallon reef tank.

We have a 1,200 gallon lagoon with mangrove growing out of the back of it. You can look it up on Instagram and on Facebook on YouTube. Yeah. And it's an amazing, it's an amazing place. And, you know, we do, I run the web

department there. So all the corals that you see on the website, it's very similar to reef or madness in that sense. Yeah, that's cool. The customer service is almost exactly, I've built it to almost be exactly the same and the care and the making sure that we, you know, produce products that are true. to life and growing these corals out and names and, you know, everything that we do.

I've realized this on my own, but I feel like Graham works best if you just leave them alone. And it seems like you're a pretty like, you're a pretty like hands off employer. And I am not a, I am not a micromanager. I don't like, I don't like being a micromanager. I think that people always second guess themselves when you're, you know, micromanaging. So they, they second guess their own abilities. And I just, I can't stand it. So I'll give you a goal.

Yeah. And I'll say, you know, have at it. And then I'll give you some little tweaks on the way. And then, you know, then I think that develops and their, the product that they produce gets better and better and better. That's how Graham likes to work. See, that's how I like to work. But I feel like I, I do get micromanagey. Do I, Jack?

I feel like I do. A little bit. Yeah. You micromanage? A little bit. I feel like I'm meticulous. Like everything has to be precise. Maybe in this particular one you're, you know, having, you know, you've, you know, you've,

got, you know, how many, 3.1 and 9 million? 3.2. 3.2 now, wow. After this, it would be more. So 3.2 million subscribers. You probably need to more so. But, yeah. In the beginning.

In the beginning, you were very micromanagey. But now you've kind of realized that I feel like you've drilled in these principles into my head, so I don't really, I'm pretty on it with most things. In the beginning, it was deadlines for Jack. We had an agreement that the podcast would be. done 24 hours prior and then I was sitting there 24 hours be like it's going to be soon it's going to be and then like 20 hours I would never do it what's going on I would never have it he had's never gotten done before it and I would be sitting there at midnight 1 a.m. It's not up. It's not up.

We're posting tomorrow. What's going on with this? What's going on? Don't worry it'll be up in the morning. First thing in the morning. Where is it? No, I never missed posting. You never missed posting. I always had it up. It was always processed. It was everything was one time with Ryan Paneda. but that wasn't, I had it done on time. There was just a problem. Processing. Yeah, it was something out like something like that. Yeah, something weird.

Some technological problem. Exactly. But I had it done on time. But I never missed an upload. Graham just said he wants it uploaded an hour before. But I would, I'm not going to like, I was so busy throughout the week. And it's like to add on the podcast because I needed that extra day because that's on a Sunday.

So at least I could work on it all day, Saturday and work on it and stay up late Saturday night. You know? But like throughout the week, I had so much stuff I had to do. It was hard to. have this done as well through, you know, by Friday, while I have all of these other things I'm trying to do. What's your advice for Jack? This is great.

Give Jack some advice. And Jack, ask Chris for advice. Okay. Chris, you could go into business coaching after this. Business coaching. You could. Seriously, if you, I guarantee, if you set up an email address, I'm like, I'm half joking, but I'm being serious here,

if you set up a business email address and I guarantee people, would reach out to you for one-on-one coaching for business advice. Because I feel like you, if you have so much that you taught me that I would only imagine like what you've learned along the way. It's possible. So if you decide to do this, you have a week to decide. If you see an email in the description, you did it. If not, I'm not going to push it.

I'm not going to micromanage that. But if you want to do it, if you want to do it, maybe I reach out to you and you can help me with actually the setup part of it, the technological part of it. No, all it is, email. Email, email PayPal. Email PayPal and then help people. Yeah. So people would reach out to you.

You'll have a rate and then people will PayPal you in advance. And sometimes you just go back and forth every email. Make sure it's something that you could actually work with. They'll send you a PayPal. You set up a time to chat with them. Well, what are you running into? What are your issues? What are you running into that he has to micromanage you for?

Is it still that? Be completely on it. Yeah, be completely on. This is your guy. My issues with my job? Just in general, with, running the whole. We're turning this on you.

Yeah. I guess like my only real issues with my job is that I wish that I could do it more like remotely. Like I, because I try to visit my family like at least once every two weeks. But I've been here for it's like, I think like my fourth week in a row that I've been here. And I like to spend like a weekend with my parents. But and also I know that like a few years down the road, it's going to be really. really difficult for for graham and I to be able to do that kind of stuff like especially even when

I buy a new house when I buy a house in Las Vegas I'm going to want to live there and I'm going to want to stay there throughout the day but Graham is going to want me to come here but most of the work that I do I can do it remotely grandma's I think I think just like likes my physical presence in the room if we're like going back and forth on thumbnails and titles although it may be the exact same thing if it's over the air you know my defense to that is that jack jack is free to go whenever he wants to if you want to see your family uh I'm never I'm never holding jack on So anytime. Sometimes like weekends like this are planned out like a week or two in advance. I'm like, okay, this week we got this thing planned. Next week we also have people flying in. But for the most part,

it's completely open. So just to see you know. No, he doesn't hold me hostage. Yeah, I never hold Jack hostage. Yeah. But, uh, but now I feel like I've noticed a difference between in-person collaborations that you just can't do over a Zoom call. And there's, there's some sort of magic that'll happen. if we're working over a title or a thumbnail, that we post three really main times a week, and that's that in-person collaboration going back and forth and that tension in the room of neither of us could think of a title, you don't get the same thing and the same effect on this over Zoom.

Well, I think for you, you have to have, you do have some down. Do you have any downtime? Yeah, definitely. Like, since we hired Alex, like I'm actually working very, very like I'm working reasonable hours you know obviously like I usually start like later than Graham but I usually go later than Graham

like I'll be able to go out play spike bowl with my friends at five come back at like eight do with you know maybe like an hour or two till I go to bed so I have like reasonable hours I can take off time I can come back I'm working I'm happy with the amount of working right now yeah I mean that's that's one of the things is that to become a I know you know for from all these years of doing doing this you know with the web you know managing web departments and coming up with all these,

you know, these names. And I do know that you've got to have a little bit of downtime. You've got to have your brain to be able to clear itself, to be able to come up with those catchphrases, you know, to come up with those names for, you know, so that they're exciting that they can click,

you know, for click on. So I do know that, you know, managing your time wisely and allowing yourself to, you know, to clear that, to clear your brain is important.

But, you know, for the deadlines to be able to work. work for I mean if you guys have a specific goal that you need and that you know that you're trying to get to um you should probably need to you probably need to buckle down and just you know and and deal with it for a little bit longer until you get to the point where you know you can make that decision between the two of you guys rather than you know I also think one other thing I think Graham needs to instill a little bit more trust in me because you mean like I did with him back in the day yeah like he'll

if I if I want to make a decision yeah do you have you do you I mean, are those, does he have the fortitude to be able to, you know, to be able to do that? I feel like we're in therapy right now. Like we were a mediator here. Yes. So I do. Yeah. So like, like obviously things that benefit Graham benefit me.

And I totally see that and I recognize it. And and for certain things like like I was picking out a new router for the house, right? Like for the Wi-Fi because we drastically needed it. And I spent a lot. of time. Alex spent a lot of time. He researched it. It was such a pain in the butt calling the Wi-Fi company trying to figure out what's wrong with it. I sunk so many hours trying to figure out the new router. And then finally, Alex too, we settled on a router that we liked and like the satellites that we liked with the router. And I go to Best Buy and then Graham and I had like some

back and forth on like the cost of the router. And I thought it was so, I don't remember it. I thought we did it. No, no. This is Graham you're speaking about it with costs. Exactly. Come on. But the thing is, it's like it's for the business. And not only is it for the business, but like you're going to have me a full-time employee and Alex a full-time employee and Graham and Macy and everyone's going to be hogging up all the bandwidth on the, and it's just very important that we have fast Wi-Fi. And Graham was like,

I hope you don't spend more than this amount. And I'm like, dude, if only you realize how important it is to have Wi-Fi that doesn't cut out, we would literally be sitting right here trying to get to comments or like be posting a video and the Wi-Fi would like not work. We would have to move to another room. It was so dumb. We moved to another room because the Wi-Fi wasn't working here.

But when we were in the other room... This is still Graham, you're speaking of it. So, you know, we all know. Oh, just wait. We know. We were in the other room. The video wasn't performing. And Graham said, it's because we're in this room.

So we came back here and the Wi-Fi wasn't even working. I'm superstitious. I have to be sitting right there. Superstitious or super super... Yeah, stupid-sicious. Stupid-stitious. Stupid stitious. I, could you not?

I have to be sitting right there when I post a video. Otherwise, it doesn't perform. and well. We've tested other locations. But the Wi-Fi wasn't even working here. But they don't do it. Okay. Here's the question.

Have you upgraded it? I upgraded the Wi-Fi. And now you don't have to sit in this particular location. I do. I still sit there. You still sit here. The Wi-Fi is good. Yeah.

Okay. But there was flack from Graham. And it's stuff like that where it's like, obviously what I want is going to be what is best for what is, you know, for Graham. And what is best for Graham is what is best for me. So here's the thing. I, he has to heed my requests and advice. I got the fast.

this internet that you could buy with this thing. And it was just this location here. So I think my rebuttal there was let's call up the Wi-Fi company and see if they'll fix it. You don't know how many hours I spent online with Cox. It was, because I was like, my thing, it was like, okay, we're paying for the good one. We should get that service. So you're saying the trust factor isn't there. After all these years of working together and there's no trust factor.

You can get 95% the quality if I was working elsewhere. That's what really it. Here, here's a point. Yeah. We talked about earlier about, you know, some of the things that you learned are Refer Madden as well. Sometimes if you have something, say, you know, shipping out around coral or customer's not happy with something, so on and so forth. It's seen kind of play with sometimes improving upon something to improve something else. It's hard to see when you're already in it and you're focused on this particular thing should work.

But yet there's an alternative to be able to surpass that and go beyond that. because we all know that cable companies are not always the easiest to deal with. So finding a separate route, I mean, maybe, I don't know, I'm just saying that maybe in the future you have other technological advances that you need to make in and around the house. We do. We do. So maybe you need to do the same sort of thing. You can say, okay, well, this is the drawback and here is the benefit. You know, we could save even if it's one hour a week to get an IMA.

that's worth it. And the quality will go up. I said, we get a nine Mac. And no one's tested out though. A happy employee is a good employee. Yeah. I firmly believe that.

I dig. I mean, I work with both, but you know, I dig them. They never fail you. Yeah. They never fail.

They never lock up. They never, I mean, it's, it's unbelievable how efficient they are. So that we could get one. And I just, I just,

do you need more than one? Yes. I just wanted to point out that we, but they don't, fail you. They don't. We had... I don't know. I know you're editing different stuff that I... I still use the same...

I get it. How many was it? How many YouTube subscribers? 3.2. Okay. It's like four between all... I saw some of the number you make per hour. Oh, yeah. So you... In one hour would basically pay for... Save a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But... And then you pay for that in about an hour or... I like to make big changes. I like the... Everything's just saying, we'll do it slowly. We don't need to go all crazy with two IMAX. Well, get one, give it to Alex. Have Alex deal with it a little bit. This is the thing, too. I'm splitting the cost.

So whatever Graham and I buy for Alex, that means I'm in 50%. I'm totally cool with that, you know? Oh, damn. Yes. So there you, so you, but I need one too. You're paying for one. Yeah.

He's paying for one. But Graham wants to wait for me to get one. He says, what do you want Generation 2 or something? No, he just, How long? I don't know. And there's no end goalpost. It's like,

my advice, if you really think it's going to make that much of a difference, do it. And you know what? I just want to say, I talked to Innes after, because we recorded a podcast with someone right before you came here.

And he has like, he has a YouTube channel with these crazy like cameras and equipment and all of this stuff. It's 100 grand in equipment for filming. And I talked to him afterwards. He pulled me aside and he says, you know a man, like I didn't want to say this on the podcast,

but you were right. You guys got to upgrade your equipment. Like, it makes sense. He says, I admire. You know, Graham wanting to still use the towels as light diffusers and stuff like that. Like, I admire that. But at a certain point, it only makes sense to scale up. Because think about where you'll be three years from now.

Are you still going to use the towel as a light diffuser? Are you still going to use the Canon ADD? Yes. Okay, what about 10 years from now? Maybe. Are you going to work? But I think it just makes sense to scale up and to build a better production. I remember how excited who was about that.

The Sony? Yeah. Right? Yeah. The Sony camera. It's the same. 99 bucks, bro. I bought a camera.

$99. My camera, all of my equipment, it was like $3,000. And I spent $3,000. And Graham is rocking with like a $600 camera. But it works. It works. It does work. That's what it's like, why fix what isn't broken?

It's been working this entire time. It's a better experience, I think, for the viewers to have a, like, it just is. I mean, the only, the only thing that I always see is that, and I, I sometimes do this too and Graham's behalf is that if it does work you can see all your upgrades but the problem is a lot of times what upgrades are is that unless you have somebody that is uncomfortable to make that upgrade you always fall back to what works so making that upgrade sometimes doesn't fulfill your need nor does it nor does it nor does the cost basically make it making an advantage for you if you can't if you can't make it work so that's always the thing you have to look

at is that are you going to use that upgrades? Are you going to be able to use those particular things that are going to make that upgrade? I wouldn't but you know what? Because you're here Jack, we'll get two MacBooks. We'll get, we'll do it. We'll do it just because Chris is here

and just because we're talking about it, I will make the leap of faith. We're going to get to. You could order them right after this. I'm going to go in-store pickup, but make sure to keep the costs down. We're going to get the decked out ones. Down.

Okay. Maybe wait for a sale. Is there a memorial day sale? Alex has an Apple card. You just said, make the purchase after this, you know, after the podcast. But now you're saying wait for sale. Now I'm thinking. Now I'm thinking.

Now I don't think. Max don't go on sale. That's true. Alex has an Apple card. You get 5% or 3% off. 5% off. Okay. See, I'm excited.

See, now you need to pay me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. I'm very excited. Even though I'm dropping probably like 2,000. end. I'm very excited. Very excited. Alex is giggling in the background.

Yeah, you can see. You get a computer too. We're happy for you. That's all right. Awesome. Thanks so much. That's great advice. I got one more question for you. If you could go anywhere in the world, where would you go? Because you've done a lot of traveling, right? Oh, can I answer this question too? Uh, no. Where would you go, Jack? Uh, anyway. Thailand. Why Thailand? Because it's cheap and the culture is beautiful. It's It's a beach town, but it's also very green, you know. It's beautiful. The culture's cool.

Jack actually had a trip scheduled to Thailand, and then the illness hit. Yeah. And then it was canceled. First time out of the country. Shut down. Yeah. Yeah. Where would I go?

Hmm. I mean, it's always been a dream that, like I think I mentioned to you earlier, to dive with those white humpbacks in the northern islands of Tonga. That would be, that would be something else. Or with the manas, there's a few locations. where you can dive with manor rays. I've done it once. I dove in with a manna,

manoray once, the middle of nowhere. Actually, Christine and I just, this captain we were with, and he's like, we thought it was a plastic bag in the ocean. And he's like,

no, that's a manoret jump in now. And we just got through on our mass and just in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the ocean. Like you can't, like you can see islands, you know,

but they're, you know, probably a mile away. And we just jumped in. And sure enough, here's this manor ray, just feeding. He's just doing these loops.

And we're, you're chugging them after you chug and you know fly and swimming as fast as we could behind him watching this manoray just do these loops and just eating the plankton and that was incredible so to see something like that or to even you know have to dive with the white humpbacks that is that would be pretty the south the south the south pacific they're they're basically their whole most of their body like three quarters of their body is just this white and it's just incredible why haven't you done that yet work i just working so much you know me i mean i just I just do a lot of work.

If I'm not working worldwide worldwide, I'm working on my art. And, you know, or usually it's like one day of art and, you know, doing artwork. And then the second day is a family day. So, you know, where we spend one of those days being a family and doing stuff as a family. So, yeah, for the most part. Is it possible to get time off? Like, how long would you need? To make that trip, you probably need a good,

10 days probably 10 days or something how long is that to travel it's a it's a it's a hall it's a hall no tonga's not quite as far um viji's 11 11 hour 10 and 11 hour flight tongas depends i think you can go through hawaii you can go hawaii and then down to tonga i believe there might be some straight shots out of la um but yeah coming from like going from florida over it's it's it'd probably be a good 12 to 13-hour flights. Yeah. Cool. Well, I would like to do that for you and Christine.

Whoa. So you literally let me know when we'll make it happen. Okay. Dang. All right. Are you going to come with me? Maybe. We'll see.

If you come with me. Yeah. If you and you can come with me. You're going to, if I can make it, you can make it. Then I can show you. Then I can show you what. Why I move. Why I move to the islands of Fiji, then you can see why.

You know, then if I go, then Jack and Alex have to go to. Have to go to. Yeah, I mean, we could make it. And we can make it a, you know, that would be a pretty, pretty crazy. That would make a trip, wouldn't it? That would be incredible float footage, wouldn't it? We just got to get Christine away from, you know, slowly get her away from being camera shy. Right.

Yes. Okay. Realistically, do you know when you would be able to get 10? Well, I don't even know if, I don't even, it would probably have to be probably I mean, if we could do it, probably next year, I would have to go. Okay.

Let's aim for that then. Yeah, because I think, you know, with the corona, all this stuff. It's still shut down. But, yeah,

it should open up. I, you know, should open up by the end. All right. Yeah. Yeah. We'll make it happen.

That would be, yeah, but that would be a lot of fun. That would be my gift to thank you for everything that you've done from me. And I think that would be a fun experience.

That would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Well, perfect. For sure. There we go. Going to Tonga.

IMAX and now you're going to Tonga. Look up Tonga. Tonga's a pretty cool place. This is a great episode. This is a testimonial for you as a business coach. You should be doing the same thing too because you got Jack a MacBook or what is it, an iPad computer and a trip. And Alex is obviously going to come along. So we could vlog it.

You should do the business consulting. I would do it 175 an hour. Okay. That's what you should be doing. That's a good price. Yeah, 175 an hour. Yeah. Do that?

Will you actually do it? minutes. Would I actually do it? Yeah. Sure. Okay. I'll do it. If the email's in the description, you did it. If not, then no worries. I don't want to press it. Sure. But yeah, you, I think Jack will. That's great value. Jack will testify. It worked for him. It worked for me. Yeah, and it's got, it costs me money. So, uh, so there you go, Jack. All right. Is there anything else? I don't think so. Just really appreciative that you came on the podcast. Very nice to meet you. Yeah, absolutely. It's been like, uh, yeah, absolutely. It's been a long time. Um, but it's, yeah, this is a lot of fun.

I mean, this just happened, just hit me up a week, you know, a week ago. And Christina, like, yeah, let's make it,

let's make it happen. Yeah. It's an adventure. I love adventure. Yeah. I love adventure. I mean, this is totally a last minute thing.

It was like, how is this weekend? I was, sure. Let's do it. I mean, it was cool. You know, work us into your, you know,

crazy busy schedule. So we did it. Yeah, been a lot. But thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. Thank you for everything. My pleasure.

It was a lot of fun. It's cool. This is a, this is a really good experience. It's, it's fun, it's loose, it's not,

you know, and I think that's, that bodes well to bringing out the, the personalities of, of, the true personalities of people that you have on,

you have on your show, which is awesome. It's not, it's not, you know, it's not in a situation where you feel like you have to,

you know, be outside of yourself. Exactly. Which is very cool. And I appreciate that. Thank you guys. You're welcome. Thanks so much.

and thanks so much for the fish. So with that said, you guys, thank you so much for watching. I really appreciate it. We're going to link to your information down below in the description. But before you leave, make sure to subscribe, hit the notification bell,

hit the subscribe button. And also, you could get your free stock with all the way up to $70 down below the description when you send it for public. How much? $70. It used to be $50. It's going up.

No, it's $70 for a limited time and you could potentially get a completely free stock of Tesla. So if you want that, down below in the description, use code gram. That's it. It's pretty much like free money.

So enjoy. Thank you guys so much for watching. Until next time. Okay. Make sure to hold the mic this way. All right. Yeah, there you go. Cool.

All right.