The Iced Coffee Hour - “This KEEPS 99% Broke And Miserable!” - Fix THIS! | Jason & Brett Oppenheim

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

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Insecurity and a lack of confidence probably causes 90% of the problems on this planet. There are people who let life happen to them, and then there are people who, like, create their life. I just see them accept defeat far too easy. There's 50 different ways to get what you just asked for. You just literally just gave up. I have never been concerned about money. I've always always felt like I'll be successful. So I've just always spent like I've had it.

What's the point of having money if you're not going to fly first place? What's your advice to someone who's thinking about buying our house right now? I appreciate you guys coming on. So I'm curious to start this off. What is one thing that you would critique about the other? And one thing that you guys... Hold on a second. No warm up.

This is crazy because you guys haven't done a podcast together. No, I don't think so. Also, I can't... One thing. Can I do like a top ten? For sure. Yeah. If there's too many, just be like the biggest issues. How long?

Two hours. Is that enough time? You want me to go alphabetical? Numerical. I think it's funny because Graham says you guys have some of the funniest banter. You guys love to argue. You loved debate. And apparently you guys are like philosophically a little bit different, right?

Pretty close. You'd say you'd say very in alignment or is it? Yeah, I'd say pretty in alignment. Okay. We argue and debate over like nuance. Like just micro nuances. Okay. Well, we want to find that nuance.

That's what we're looking for. Like who gets that's piece of pizzas. That's what it's about? Yeah, it's not like philosophical debates or politics. It's pizza. Like whose favorite football team has the best like receiving trio? That's it. Yeah.

That's really dumb. What's one critique? you guys have for each other. I'll let you go first so I can see how deep he's going. Exactly. How deep the cut is. Exactly. And I want him to know there's something hanging over his head when he's talking right now.

I'll go after here. He repeats himself when we argue. That's annoying. I can get behind it. I haven't seen that from you, but when people start being redundant in an argument, it's like, I understand. You know what makes people redundant? It's when the other party has absolutely like no focus or care or like, you know, just dick around with their phone. around with their phone and they just they're not listening.

That's what makes people who repeat themselves. Right. So you're redundant for a purpose. Yeah, out of necessity. Okay. So these issues are aligned. That's fair. Do you think he's redundant or now?

Probably not as much as I am. Okay. He's never admitted that. He's probably just more like, you know. He'll keep the debate slash argument going more than I'll be like, I'm good and then he'll keep out of it. But I think he's probably less respectful in the manners in which he, I don't know, relates to people generally because.

He's just, I'm busier, is what are you saying? It's called busy. It's like, bro, you hear what I said? It's called a work ethic. Bro, you hear what I said? And he's like, stop repeating yourself. I'm like, dude, you haven't looked up with your phone in eight minutes.

It's funny because I've worked with you guys for a long time and I see both perspectives on this. I think you're mostly on your phone or doing emails or like talking to someone else. Well, Brett's talking to you. Even if it's Instagram, can I cuss on this part? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Even if it's Instagram, you'll be like in the middle of it. I'm like, dude, you're like swiping left. I know you're not working right now.

on the way here he was driving I was on a work call for 15 minutes you get so fucking annoyed so usually I just have to take my own Uber because he gets so annoyed that's insane that you take your own Uber dude but imagine picking somebody I'll come pick you up you know because you're kind of

on the way whatever I got the music on like breeze in my hair I'm like cool morning I'm hung over I'm like yeah I'm gonna let that slide chill I'm chilling I'm in like perfect you know okay like the podcast coming I'm like just gonna relax on the way there oh I got a call with a developer in Canada.

I'm like, dude, you're just going to take it an Uber then? I mean, I got to listen to this bullshit the whole way here. That's a good point. I got to turn the music down. I got to put the window up. Sure, now you have to accommodate. Yeah, it pisses me up. That's true.

Yeah, thank you. Let's see, one thing that you admire in the other person. Oh, also tons of things I admire. I think this is like marriage counseling. Yeah, I want to work through this. Graham was just telling me how funny it is when you guys just start coming. There are tons of things that we admire. You know, we actually went to a couple's therapist.

Well, not a couples therapist? Well, I think she's strange as a couples therapist. or maybe not, I don't know. Why did you do it? But we went for like, just to get along better. Yeah. Was there a certain event or something that happened? No, we just were fighting a lot.

When was this? You remember when we were? Years ago. Yeah. Yeah, we're better now. Do you remember like five, ten years ago? Yeah. Oh, it was like ridiculous.

We were getting fist fights at lunch. Yeah. Just told me a story about that. Yeah. Yeah, we don't physically fight as much anymore. No, because he's like just more intimidated now. And stronger. For good reason.

Jack was wondering, do you guys have a lot of aggression? that it's just like you just have to take it out? It's only Brett. Just naturally in our character, I feel like we have a lot of, you know. Yeah, we're both alphas so you know get us together and we're just fight over shit.

Just me a little bit more. But we're not as, yeah, we're not as, we don't have the physical confrontations. No, we haven't fought us. But you used to physically fight. We did almost fight in national. We had to separate ourselves

in high school, like different high schools. We're just separated ourselves like a week ago when we were in that Uber and national. Yeah, that's true. We still, we still go out. But it's rare. Like once every few months, we'll fight. I had to jump out of an Uber in Nashville

because I was literally like we were in batches could have blows, yeah. And I'll meet you at the stadium. How many times do you guys think? I would love to see one of these fights. You guys could be a main card in like a some sort of box. I told me, I told me.

It would be so even. Like, yeah, I think that would be. We go out of it a little bit. You don't think so? No, I'd get him. You usually will? I have more agon. Well, because he bites.

I have more aggression. I think I would. Yeah, that's probably true. He used to like kind of beat me up a little way. I'd pin him down. But that's crazy. You guys end up going to blows because I have a brother. Not really as much. Not really like punching in the face.

More like wrestling and like, you know, chokehold and like. Maybe punching in the chest. We try to avoid the face. We try not to actually just boom. Although I knocked him out cold a couple times. Did you actually? Yeah. Dude, I did.

Well, let's let's, I want to explore. He's like laying on the ground. It's like motionless. So how does it go from like just something you're disagreeing upon to like actually fighting your tour? Oh. Like, where does the escalation happen? More and more irritation. Just stupidity.

And then one person will like, you know, push the other person or whatever. And then just happens. And you like fighting, I'm guessing, because it continues to happen. No, no, no. No, I just, we can irritate each other sometimes. No, nobody likes. I mean, yeah. That's really interesting.

You know, if I get irritated or if Graham gets irritated, it's not like, it is never within my frame of mind of like, okay. Oh, but same with everyone else on the planet. But here's the thing. If you and Graham fought, it would be a big deal. I mean, you could maybe not have the pod for weeks. Who knows if you even come back to, like, being friends. We can fight in like 30 minutes, like we did in Nashville.

Like, you know, we're 20 minutes later we meet up. Maybe it took 15 minutes after seeing each other, like, relax. But an hour later, we're fine. So you guys know no matter what happens. Yeah, I think that's part of it, too. You just take for granted. You take for granted the relationship. And so you fight because you know that it's not going to damage the relationship.

That's really different. That's very unique. Graham was telling me you guys were, like, getting lunch at some spot. And then, like, across the table from each other, you started like bickering and bantering. Forget what it was about. Yeah, too. Just about something probably trivial, as I'm going. guessing like a lot of these things. It's never about anything of substance. And then you were just

like, all right, let's go outside. And you guys just went into the back parking lot. Yeah, we didn't see you. And I think I was with Mary and all of them. I said, oh, no, you just leave them me. They do this. They do that. Like, should we be worried? No, no, no, no, they'll come back. And I think one of you, yeah, one of you left. And then I think it was you, Jason. I think you just sat down like nothing had happened. That checks. That checks. Yeah. So how do you think having a twin is different from having a normal sibling? You're just closer. Yeah, I don't think there's a, closer relationship on the planet if you work towards it than identical twins. And what does that like to have somebody that always keeps you in check?

When do you give him authority to make decisions on your behalf? Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I generally don't make important decisions without like us agreeing on. Consulting. And does it have to be like a unilateral decision? No, no. But I take his advice seriously. Bilateral you mean?

Like like mutual. Bilateral. Is that how it is? I think unilateral will be one person. Are you a lawyer too? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's an advisor, you know, that you go to.

I trust his opinion as much as mine. So it's hard for me to make an important decision. Like, let's say I'm going to open up a new office somewhere. I kind of have to get bread on board so that I'm confident in it. You know, if he has reservations, then I rethink my decision. But how do you guys build that level of respect and trust for each other? That's just like just like 46 years of just like seeing the person, making good decisions and like earning and admiring the other person.

Imagine if you guys had this podcast for 46 years. Would you, would you, would you? You might actually listen to me then. Would you worry about like what questions Graham is going to ask? But I think it's different because you guys have had a very similar, if not the same upbringing. Yeah. So I think going through that and being related ties that even closer than Jack and I. No, I know.

I'm just trying to give some perspective. Would you worry about what guests he's going to bring on or what questions he'd ask or whether he can have after 46 years of this? No, you know, you've seen everything 10 times. That's a good point. Okay, so did you guys actually have, you had to be in different high schools? Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying my McDonald's here.

I don't want to continue bringing this back to the fighting, but for me, that's fine. My McDonald's here. Oh, yeah, sure, sure. Thanks, buddy. So I can't believe that you guys had to be separated intentionally because of the fighting? Most of through high school. When did that start? At what age did you guys start?

Most of our fighting was probably. Four or five, probably we started. Four and four. Fourteen was our worst. Was there ever genuine, like, hatred, you think? No. No. No.

But it was mostly trivial. It was never anything, but... It was always trivial. We never did anything but love each other more than anyone else on the planet. The fighting isn't about, you know, like, I don't like you as a person. It's just, I want to crush you right now.

Yeah, I think we're just, you know, raised basically by our mom and when we saw our dad. Do you have a brother? I have an older brother. Yeah. You guys fought, no? We fought, but I was, I mean, he was two and a half years older than me, so there was a bit of a size difference for most of the time we were going up.

So I would be like the provoker. I would annoy him, and then he would fight, and it's like, I can't do anything. He's way bigger than that. Okay, so you can imagine, though, if you guys were, like, pretty tight. The exact same size? Things could have been different. Yeah.

Yeah. About Graham? Half sister. But how much of that fighting do you think is because you... Put it on the ground. Don't take up the whole... There's no paid promo. Yeah, exactly.

Be like, wow, this big Mac for $4.99. It's such a great deal, huh, Graham? How much of the fighting, though, do you think is because you were twins and very competitive with each other and proving that, like, hey, I have a one-up? Like, I'm the better twin. No, no zero. Yeah. It was literally just two alphas in a room, you know, with nothing to do.

Like what's going to happen? This alpha stuff, because that's kind of been like blowing up recently with like the alpha mindset, alpha mentality. Oh yeah. Why do you say that you're an alpha? How do you determine if you're an alpha? I mean, I could technically be using that term wrong, but I'm pretty sure, you know, just kind of a naturally aggressive kind of if you're in a room with a bunch of people, you're, you know,

your boys, you're probably going to be the guy making the decisions, you're probably going be kind of like, you know, one of the bigger presence in the room. Just not on purpose. It's just your personality. You know, and there was someone else like that. And you kind of want to get your way and you kind of just have like that a large presence in your personality. But first, if you're in business just like us, I'm sure you're well aware that problems

are everywhere. For example, there was actually a scheduling issue that made it so Graham couldn't be in the studio to record this with me. Sorry, Jack. And there comes a time in every business when the problem that you've been ignoring needs to be handled. Graham? I said him sorry, Jack.

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both of you is this kind of like alpha presence, alpha mentality. And now I'm not saying Graham's and I would never admit to such a thing. But a lot of the times when I go to advice for Graham, he is kind of just like a relay for your advice that you guys have. I would say so, yeah. Every single time he's like, well, I remember having this talk about, you know, this or whatever about with Brett or Jason or something. And he just relays it.

And it's always the same kind of like stoic, non-responsiveness to certain things and like being precise and like this alpha mindset. And I'd say we don't take note for an answer, which is probably somewhat alpha. But a dad had like a motto of whatever it takes. And I think we have that instilled in us. Like we just get what we want. You kind of have in the back of your mind, like this is going to happen, just a matter of how difficult it is.

And that's the mindset from which you operate. But I don't think I do that on purpose. That's kind of just in my blood. You think I'm glad I've able to apart some of that. You think you got that from his dad? I think you were kind of raised in that way. Both my parents are kind of alpha, I would say. But yeah, that's something in my bones.

Like I never read a book on how to be alpha or anything or watch videos. I just was that we were that way from four years old. And it's not like necessarily something that we're bragging about when I say alpha. I'm just using it as a purely descriptive term. I'm not sure it's advantage. It's probably advantageous in life in some ways and disadvantageous in others. So I'm not like telling everybody

be alpha necessarily. In what ways would be bad? Well, you can rub people the wrong way. We also, I think, get frustrated at things that we think can be done better. So you can get irritated and frustrated at other things because you just want to take over and do it. So it's kind of hard to delegate.

It's kind of hard for people to live up to your expectations. If you're not in control of something, it bothers you. I could see the alpha personality, for lack of a better term, we're just assuming we'll assign that word to this thing we're describing, could make it challenging to get very close to certain people, I feel like. It makes people seem a little bit more distant. We have very close relationship for friends and family.

Okay. But to enter through, to break through to that, to be a part of the close circle, would you say it's more challenging? Because could those people leave? because you would need to be the one in charge because I've noticed even hanging around you, you're usually the one that says, oh, we're going to go to this place tonight

and oh, we have this connection over here, let's go there. And everyone else that's with you is like, yeah, that's great. And you don't really find a lot of conflict. No, I don't want to go there tonight. It's hard for Alas to be together, just like in the wild. That's why Brett Knight fight because we're, you know, we disagree on just about. I mean, you can learn about alpha behavior

by watching National Geographic. You don't have to interview us. I mean, we're just animals. Humans are just animals, and we act in very similar ways to two alpha lions hanging out in the wild, they're not going to do very well together. They're going to have to have their own prides.

And when they come together, there's probably going to be some scuffles and they could be brothers. But it's not that much different than like alpha animals in the wild. That's what the term came from. Do you think it could be learned? I don't know if you'd want it to be learned. I think we learned it too.

I think it's nature and nurture. Absolutely, yeah. I think there's part of being alpha that's probably beneficial in life and I maybe would impart for some people to try to learn that, which is achieving your goals. I want to say no matter what cost, because that seems a bit extreme.

But have it in the back of your mind. A lot of people, like when I'm talking to some people in the office or just some people in life, I just see them accept defeat far too easy, absurdly easily. And I'm just like, there's 50 different ways to get what you just asked for. You just literally just gave up. So I would impart that. You know, get it in your mind, this is going to happen. And then when you get that in your mind and you effectuate it with that mindset,

then the next time you're like, oh, shit, I really can make that happen. Like, you know, sometimes you're in a traffic jam. Like, usually, especially in like second, their world countries. And there's some people just sit in the line, like forever. And someone opens a door, gets out, and starts directing traffic. That's us. Like, we'll get out. Make this guy go in here.

Make this guy pull over here and get the shit going. Like, I'm not going to sit here for an hour. There's no effing way I'm sitting here for that. Where did you learn that behavior, though? Because I feel like there's got to be something where you've seen it and then started modeling that. I mean, I'd say, well, both of our parents, but I'd say our dad particularly has. Do you think it was learned?

Do you think if we were raised different parents, I think I still feel like we'd be this way. Well, I don't think we'd be as much, because I think they instilled a lot of confidence in us and made us believe that we could, you know, succeed at what we do. And then also we saw them, you know, very persistent. I mean, our dad would not be someone that would take no. I think that's totally fair. But I think it's a mix because I also feel like it's in my bones, you know, and you'd have to, like, beat it out of me, no matter who raised me. But it's probably accentuated by my parents. At what age did you start living with your dad?

My understanding, he took over when you guys were not doing so well in school and put you on a different path. I got expelled when I was a sophomore in high school. What did you do? Oh, just dumb shit. We got sent to boarding schools and then I got, well, we both got expelled. So my dad took me in 15 or 16 and then Brett got expelled like six months after me. What did you do? Oh, I mean, it was like just dumb stuff.

Weed and fighting and nothing crazy. But, you know, when you had a boarding school, they're like super tolerant. I was never good with authority. Neither was we were good with authority from day one. Yeah. were, you know, difficult. I don't think alphas are good with authority. Yeah, there's another issue with being an alpha.

So how did your dad handle that? My dad's also not good with authority. When my dad took us, it was like, this is actually, ironically, like, if you need to control, this is devolving into, like, just a full alpha conversation. But if you need to control an alpha, it has to be full, basic, just structure and dominance. It's the only way to keep an alpha in check. So my dad literally took over our lives.

Like, that's why the Marines is probably good for alphas, you know, because they don't have a choice. You have to put them in such a structured environment that they have no choice. But if you give them like, you know, a bunch of outs, they're going to take the outs. So with my daddy, he just smothered us with like rules and and with backed by like, you know, do not break this. You know, we were like scared to list. It's not like he would beat us right. But I mean, there was like this level of authority that we were like, oh, this isn't. So, but what level of authority was at that you wouldn't disobey those, those rules? I mean, he, well, I think you have to be. You have to be scared.

Imposing. Yeah, you have to be scared of the consequences. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Which I'm, I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing. I know that I'm not supposed to say that. I think it helped my brother and I immensely that our dad would, you know, like,

well, let me just be clear. Make sure that we did. He was really good at never hitting us ever in our entire life, but always being physically imposing and threatening enough that we would like just not want to mess with them, you know, which I think is like great fathering, you know, because you never should touch your kid. He never would. I mean, he might push us up against the wall and scream and just, like, to repeat our pants practically.

But he would never, like, ever hit us or hurt us, ever. Yeah, you just have to be scared of, like, the consequence, I think. Like, my mom, our mom would, could not keep us in check. And then she would try to spank us or whatever. Ground us or, like, 50 different little things, but it never worked because we were really scared. Plus, when she spanked, like, you know, she'd spank us with, like, spoons. And we would just be like, you know, once we realized, like, it, that it only hurt so much, then she was fucked because then we would just sit there.

And she just was hoping. hopeless and I feel bad but my dad yeah like you know we felt like they were divorced at the time just to be sure yeah yeah so yeah so he's difficult um yeah he straightened us out when we were like 15 16 i mean like you go through like kind of how the regimen well he would wake us up at like 5 a.m and we'd go in the garage and work out so that would be the like the start he you know took our baggy clothes off our earrings off you know shaped mic o t took out the earring like he'd dress us um drop us up at school pick us up from school we'd go to his office where he was uh a professor at this community.

You didn't miss a class. I mean, it's like, you don't, we just do our homework. It was like Marines, basically. No friends, no time to get in trouble. Like literally he made sure for the first year that we had not even 10 minutes to ourselves. So we just couldn't get in trouble.

Sounds like a really intelligent person. He's able to navigate. He's also a Marine. And now he learned that structure. And he teaches sociology. He's quite introspective. And he was, and this isn't to say my dad's a better parent than my mom. It's just that he had the skill set to control us as like, you know,

the types of kids that we were. And for my mom, It was really difficult. For someone else, my mom would have been, you know, probably the perfect parent. My dad wouldn't have maybe, you know, been as a student at it. Most kids don't need, like, you know, a physically imposing consequence. But we did because we were pretty adequate. We didn't listen to anybody, whether there's a teacher or a parent.

Like, we were just, you know, encouraging. But you're in the police. Like, we just didn't care about anything. When did you start to enjoy that structure that he was giving to you? Or did you meet it with resistance? It was always a nightmare. Yeah. Well, it was only about a year until he then once he had us like, you know,

structure then he backed off then we had actually an unbelievable manner of freedom yeah then it was just you know carte blanche once he trusted us it was anything you want by his kegs for parties i mean it's like whatever because he's like okay you're not gonna miss a class you're not doing drugs you're not you're not drinking and driving you're not doing these things and i know you're not going to and i trust you with that and he was right to trust us we wouldn't and then it's like okay do whatever you we'll get you a house i'll get you he would rent us he rents a house and we would throw parties like it was a frat house he would get his kegs and stuff but how does he have that confidence that you're not going to slip back into those routines that you have.

I think we just demonstrated trust over time. Yeah. And we never did slip back in those routines ever. We were smart kids, almost probably too smart. So that's probably why I think we were bored and we would just act out. But once we kind of got more into school and we had more structured environment, then we started applying ourselves and he could tell that we were not going to like, you know, slip back.

Did you realize that was just a better way to live than the other way? So you made the own personal decision. Like once I have this structure, I tested it out. I got good results. I like this. I'm going to stick with this? Yeah, I think that's right. You'd say that's right.

Maybe, but also there was consequences if we ever did slip back because we would probably lose the freedom. Oh, that's a good point. You still did have those consequences. He just kind of allowed you to have more freedoms. Yeah. But first, if you're on a business, I'm sure you're well aware just how complicated things can get. For example, the scheduling issue, which is exactly why Graham isn't in here with the studio with me filming this. I said I'm sorry, Jack.

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were, you know, that whole argumentative nature that we have. Because we thought we were going to be, like, we wanted to be a car mechanic, we wanted to be. Yeah. I would say maybe like, in college, Well, I think we considered it like kind of our whole lives because our mom would always be like, you guys, stop lawyering me. You know what I mean? Because that's how we'd argue. It was almost innate for us to like argue like lawyers. But we did want to be mechanics probably until, you know, high school or even through high school. So I guess there was always like maybe a tiny background possibility, but not really considered until, look, I mean, I think a lot of it was, what the hell are we going to do?

We're about to graduate. I'm not going to get a job, you know? Isn't that like a lot of kids go to law school? Well, but we took pre-law at Berkeley and undergrad, so we wanted to be, we loved the law. Just because it's like, I don't know, it's, to me, it kind of defines the world, you know, in a way. It's like, it's understanding the rules of society

is kind of a good way to beat the rules, you know? It's also the way our brains work. Like some people's brains work in science and math. That wasn't us. Yeah, we're very analytical and, like, you know, logical. So it was, we loved law school. Not many people did, but I really enjoyed it. It kind of makes sense because it seems like your entire life,

you're kind of using authority to your own benefit and understanding where you can slip through the loopholes of authority. Very similar to like understanding the laws and then kind of like the flexibility of the laws. Our brains worked exactly like yeah like professors want your brain to work. It does make sense that you would go into that. But it's funny how when you say like we went into law, it's like we went into law. It's not just like Iowa. It's like it was a group kind of consensus. Yeah.

Yeah. A bilateral, you know, subconscious maybe agreement, you know. So it was it one of you guys that kind of spearheaded that? No, I think No recollection I don't even remember I don't remember It was just like

You guys both woke up On the same exact morning And then just looked at each other And just like we're going in the law No I don't think it was a little I don't remember any particular It was probably a gradual Like let's take the L SAT

That's probably just in case we want to You know okay sure Let's take the LSA and then Well you know let's These polyside classes If we should probably take some pre-law classes Yeah sure And then you know I guess we're gonna go to law school

Yeah cool I don't know It's probably more like that Sure And it was like waking up in the morning Right And then you guys ended up practicing law You presided over like that

Enron case, which I like, we did a whole study of that in my business law class. Oh, yeah. Which is really fun. Yeah, I didn't know that you did that. And then you were the first one that was like, I want to be, or you wanted to travel. Yeah. Well, I hated the law. What did you hate most about law?

I didn't hate the law per se. I hated being a lawyer. I hated being a corporate lawyer. I hated anything about corporate America. It was like because, I mean, I think, listen to everything I've said, you know, the last half an hour about my personality and then put me in a box and have people. just tell me what to do. That's essentially what it was. And I was like by a box, I mean like an office. Granted it was, you know, with views in the tallest building in the West Coast, but it's still

like a box. And I was absolutely miserable. I was eating at me psychologically like every day. It was absolutely miserable. Even to this day, it's like it's scarring even to think about those years. Oh really. Yeah. But by all available data like you probably were making more money. Oh yeah. You had more status than ever. You had fed your ego, right? I was one of the top law firms in the country making $150K at 26 and $2,000 and whatever. Oh, that's a lot. My own secretary. I forgot.

Yeah, that's a lot. I was bawling by any objective measure. How nervous were you to give that up? Not very because I was so miserable. So it made the decisions really easy after a while. I just hit to a point. I remember I was like three years in they were trying to give me this shit-ass case. I mean, absolutely just disgusting cases.

It was like one of those cases that, you know, they just. just dread giving to anybody, but I just got sucked into it. And I just, and I, because I didn't wake up that morning thinking I was going to leave and I just like, you know what? No, I'm done. And I went back to my office and I drafted a resignation email and walked into the managing partner's office, like an hour after this. Like literally, it all happened to that hour.

And I said, I'm going to be leaving the law. He's like, oh, what firm are you going to lateral to? I'm like, no, no, I'm like, I'm out. I bought a one-way ticket to London, I think, during that hour. I shit you're not. And he's like, well, what are you going to do? I remember this conversation actually He's like what are you gonna do?

You're not gonna transfer to another firm I'm like I'm just gonna travel And he's like looked at me for a second And it was like half confusion But half jealousy You know? And then he's like all right Well I wish you the best of luck

And I walked out and I was like I mean I put in my two I had two weeks But I mean pretty much that they didn't give me the case I didn't like work another hour Right And I was like that was it It was weird It just happened like

Did you have the savings to be able to do that? No So how did you fund the Oh I had a jans with my shoes dangling from the shoelaces tight to the Jansport. I just took off to Costa Rica and it was the beginning of a four-year journey.

How did you make money for four years? Well, I did like a couple little things in real estate. I came back pretty significant in debt with my bro and my mom and my dad. When I was done traveling, I was like 100K in debt. It was, you know, not the most genius idea on paper. Yeah. But, you know, I look back at that time.

It's pretty awesome. You know what's cool is a lot of people think that in order to change, need to make the change desirable but a lot of the times it's just staying the same being so undesirable that spurs the change yeah for me it was that everyone's like oh my god you're so you're so how do you how did you have the balls to do i was like honestly like i couldn't take another day it was it was the easiest decision ever it's no balls necessary you know that's the way i look at it yeah what prompted you to follow that did you see him traveling or just like oh man it seems

amazing because i'm more of a grinder so i can yeah i can put my head down and i can grind pretty hard So that's what I was doing So I wasn't as unhappy as him But yeah Seeing him traveling You know All around the world I was like

Within about six months I said I have to quit too And then the economy took a shit And then everyone started traveling Every banker lawyer And so it was like a group of us Yeah so we just Like 12 friends

So we spent over three years Just traveling the world Just sold everything we owned You know literally I think everything's had The backpack and some clothes We would come back to the US You know every few months

Do some laundry Say how to the family And then we'd take off again didn't have a winter for four years. We're not worried about making money? I was worried the whole time. I like a low-grade background anxiety the whole time, you know, which is actually when I came back to the States after four years,

I got really run down and sick for a long time, like a year. Really? I think it was all about like low-grade anxiety building up and just eating at my hormonal system. But not to say I didn't enjoy those times, but yeah, it wasn't physically probably the greatest thing on my body. I didn't have that much anxiety. I came back in probably 40 grand.

Yeah, I left with 100 grand. I'd saved over like four years of being a lawyer, 100 grand, which is just embarrassing because you think about what it takes to get a house right now. And I spent four years at like a top law firm. And I was making like 250 a year and I saved 100 grand. Were you just spending a whole bunch of money? No, I wasn't.

I was living in a one bedroom apartment for most of it. How did you not have money? It's just hard to save. I mean, even if you're making $200 grand a year, you're paying taxes, you probably clear like $120. you spend, you know, probably at least 75 of that. So you're saving like 30 grand a year. Unless you're gram.

It was not a month. Yeah. I wasn't Graham, you know. I brought my coffee from home. So I'd save some money on that. Were you frugal or? No, no, we've always, no. That's the thing I've picked up on, like,

I heard you guys have a crazy clothing budget. Like, it doesn't even. We have a crazy everything budget. We definitely enjoy spending money. We enjoy having fun and the nice things in life. So I would say we're the opposite of frugging. We also have no kids, no girlfriends, no pets. We don't have that much responsibility.

So it's like, yeah, okay, fine. But, you know what I mean? We just don't have that much responsibility. So it's not like we're blowing our kids' inheritance or not being able to send them to college if we'd do something dumb. But does part of you think, like, you know, I would like to settle down? I would like to, you know, buy a ranch and then go be a, like, you know what I mean? No.

Not a single, I mean, maybe one ounce of you? Should I have taken more time? My answer didn't seem like that. No, no, I love the resounding. No, yeah. I'm pretty happy single. I mean, I have tried, you know, a couple times, but I'd say it's probably in the future for me if I'm going to settle down.

And I don't even know if I will. But if I'm going to get married, it's probably not going to be anytime too soon. But one of the main arguments is that, like, it's kind of a long-term investment. You don't really see the growth, the gains of it until later down the line when you're, like, 80, and you're like, well, I've been with this person for 40 years. We know me so intimately. We have each other, though. But you guys aren't kissing, right?

Unless if, hey, maybe you are. I don't know. That's how you make up after the fight. That's how you solve the problem. But if you get, well, go ahead. If you think about, I think, why a lot of people get married or are wanting of a serious relationship, if you really get down to it, I think it's because they don't want to feel alone in the world. It's not kissing. It's not the sentence.

But really, though, it's like having someone to call when something good happens. having someone to call when something bad happens. Sharing something. It's just a partner. No one that someone's going to be there if something ever goes wrong with your health or anything. You're not alone in the universe. You have that person.

I think that's why people really seek these relationships. You can get sex or kissing elsewhere. You can't get what I'm talking about elsewhere. You need a partner. You need typically a partner, you know, like a sexual partner, like a wife or whatever it is. And if you already have those needs fulfilled, the non-sexual ones,

then, you know, I think, the naturally the desire for that dissipates. I'm speculating. Or the need. That is so fascinating that you say that because, because, okay, this is, I don't know if I'm getting in a dicey territory here, but the type of emotional connection that I have with a couple of my boys, like my friends, the people that I am so close to is like a hundred times what I've ever had in my entire life with someone who I'm like a intimate partner

with. You know what I mean? And now when you're saying it, it's like, I mean, you're just doing what you want, right? You see the value there, and it's more valuable doing that than finding maybe some woman that you don't have that emotional connection. And we have really close relationships with many women and men. So we have like a very healthy, like friendships that I think. So I get in some ways so much from my friendships, my brother that I would get in a relationship. But your emotional stimulation and that sort of stuff is satisfied by.

Yeah, exactly. And I also just like being alone too. Like it is awesome to come home, put my dog on. my lap and watch TV. Let me just, I think I would be more than able to connect to a partner, not in the same way we do emotionally because we don't have the history, but in a way that's incredibly fulfilling. I've had some incredibly fulfilling relationships with women, psychologically, emotionally, physically,

in ways that I don't have with him. It's not that I can't get that and that I don't enjoy that. It's just that type of relationship, other than the one with your, you know, that I have with him or the one that you have with your boy is there's massive compromise associated with it. That's the issue. the issues that I can't connect in that way or that I don't want to. It's that the compromise that comes with it. I don't compromise shit with him. If he tells me to do something, I'd tell him

to fuck off. He's not really good at, I'm much better at compromising. So you're better in relationships. Like I could just be very... But your boys don't make you compromise. Do that? I mean, no. You know? So, and a girlfriend does. So that's the difference. Our wife certainly does. Would you guys ever live in the same house? No. We would fight. We've tried. We live in the same house a couple years. We fight every day. Oh, it's brutal. So no, we'll never live in the same house. He's like a child the way here.

Even working together, he doesn't do a dish, he can't even work in the same office. Yeah, it's tough. If it wasn't for his

assistant and his like in-house basically nanny, his house would be a disaster. Oh my God. Living with him was a disaster. I'm like, oh,

really? I imagine you to be so clean. Well, I don't see everything like, I don't clean. But, but yeah, here's the thing.

Like, if his, I want to call her a nanny. Isn't, isn't there. If she isn't show up for three days, the sink is like, he literally,

He's going to do one thing. He's like, well, she's coming back on Friday. I'm like, dude, but it doesn't mean you can't like, you know, that's, that's, so imagine that with no nanny living with that with no nanny. It's brutal. I will not do a dish. I haven't, I, it will sit in the sink until Monday. And that gives me anxiety.

Like one dish in the sink gives me anxiety. My place has to be spotless. So it was brutal living with him. I've never thought, like, I feel like a very fulfilling life could just be living near, doesn't have to be in the same house as like your boys, right? And then you get all the fulfillment and sat. faction you need out of that and then elsewhere you can find we're very fulfilled I would say I mean we are very two very happy people I would say very

fulfilled then we're very close with our family very close with both male and female friends we have each other and we have great relationships when we're in them so yeah I mean we yeah we do have great female relationships just not like the long-term monogamous but outstanding relationships with women have you always been good with women I've been curious about this yeah a whole life yeah just At what age did that start that you realize, hey, maybe I'm... Yeah, at an early age. But I wouldn't say until maybe high school.

I started like batting out of my league, I guess you would call it. I don't know. In high school. Yeah, it wasn't like I was like, I wasn't dating the cutest girl in the school and middle school. But we always touched above our weight class and say with women. And how do you do that? What led to that? We were asked that on time.

I have no idea. That's into your bones. Yeah, you'd have to ask the, you'd have to ask the, women that we date. It's hard for me to answer that. That just has to be in your natural personality, your natural demeanor, a lot of its confidence. But again, we weren't coached in confidence. A lot of this is in your bones. I'm not to say you can't improve as a person, but speaking from, I mean, correct me if you disagree, but I was born that way. I'm not bragging. I'm lucky, you know. Do you feel like, yeah. I think, I think, I don't think it's

nature as much as nurture. I think you're minimizing the influence that our parents had, but I think it is nature and nurture. Do you think your height has held you back or made it better for you in such a way that you stand out? I'd say neither. You know, I don't think about it. I think if we were six three with these personalities, it would be scary. It would be scary. Yeah, I think we're quite, I think God only gives you so much, you know. And we don't really, I've never, we don't really dwell on things, you know, so I don't really think about it. Yeah, I'll go like years without thinking about it. Maybe that's why it doesn't matter because it doesn't matter to us. Sure. all of a sudden it doesn't matter.

Like, I've definitely been with women who, Chrisel is a perfect example. She would, if you had talked to her before she met me, she would have never been with someone under like 6-2, 6-3. So sometimes, you know, the women just don't expect it. Yeah, I've been with women that like tall guys. I've been with six foot, multiple, dated multiple women six feet tall.

It is really, I think what they're attracted to is your personality and the way you carry yourself. I'll give you an example. I went to a doctor's office years ago, new doctor had never met him and i was in the chair waiting for me he came up and he you know shook my hand like you know we were standing and i shook his hand and we talked for a little bit and then we both sat back down and he was like taking my you know weight i color whatever height he's like what are you like 511 6 and i thought he was fucking with me you know and i'm like yeah

and he's like how tall are you i'm like bro i we just met like i was study right now i was I'm 5.5. He's like, oh, I don't know. You struck me, like, after meeting, I just felt like you were six feet tall. Yeah. And I think that's how women, like, look at it. They just, I mean, yeah, some women really don't like the hype issue. But honestly, if you just naturally have, like, an aura about you, like, I don't give a fuck how tall I am.

And trust me, you're going to, you know, you're not going to regret dating me. They don't, they don't, they don't give a shit. Nobody really does. Yeah. It's interesting. You guys do surround yourself with very tall people. A lot of people in the office were all, like, six foot. And they also wear heels all the time.

Yeah, with heels, you know. A lot of my friends are. I don't even notice height. You know, I had a friend, well, Omar and Alex, they're both, I think, six four. Yeah. I had no idea. I think I was asking them for some reason how tall they were, and he said six four, I'm like, what? Like, if you had asked me the day before I would, like, 510, like, I don't see height because almost everyone's taller than me.

Right. Which, by the way, that reminds me, because there's very few people that can wear my clothes, but I have clothes that don't fit me anymore. So I'm going to give them to you. You're gonna like, that's nice too, right? Because I just do it on the pod because this thing's epic. Okay, I'll go get them and give them to you. Like I was...

This whole outfit, by the way, I think this is yours, Brett's, pants, pants, Jason. He wears your clothes and every single time I come over, he's like, I got him this new outfit. And he goes, he goes, it's nice. You're gonna shit with you see it. When I saw this, I'm like, are you sure this doesn't fit me? Because, oh my God. Holy crap. This isn't ever.

This is a swag, St. Laurent jacket. I wear it one time. No way. Dude, I was so pissed it doesn't fit me. And then matching St. Laurent pants because I tailored them too much. That's like a $3,500 jacket. It's going to fit you like a glove. I knew it.

Look at that. Come on. If any wealthy viewer has some old clothes that doesn't fit them anymore, please reach out to me. That's crazy. That's crazy. I tried to let the arms out. That fits perfect, Graham.

I know. That's crazy. I took it to the tailor last week. I'm like, take the. the sleeves out because my arms are getting too big and they said they can't so I'm like fucking Graham I know a guy with really small arms that's why stop working

Hey Graham do not edit that out of the out of the fire So this non-frugality that you guys have is very funny when you juxtapose it with Graham's insane frugality Still doesn't get double chicken when we go to Chipotle And he just asks for a little bit more instead In hopes that they don't charge him

It's insane I love it about it I would take him to lunch every day We were agents together. And we'd go to like the, you know, Chipotle or, what's that, Tokaya? Takaya. And he would, I was paying, so he would get, like, a large lunch. And he would eat half of it. And then he would buy half up.

And if anyone at the table, he would always grab everything that everyone left and put it in the box for his dinner. Yeah. Every single day. Or the next day. I remember I asked you once, I was like, dude, how much do you have to be worth for you to, like, go into a trader Joe's because you'll never go into Whole Foods? And just not give a shit what the blueberries cost or what the day, would nothing, cut, just not getting a shit, you know. And he's like, a hundred million?

I think he'll always be like, I like, now, 50 million? Maybe 50, I think it went down to 50. I think I talked him down to 50. Inflation, though, you might help bring that to $20. Oh, no, we went gambling and he lost like 20 bucks on blackjack and he was devastated. Oh, it ruins his night.

I was like, dude, you have a problem. He gets furious when he, and he like balls up his fists. I was so upset. Yeah, he's scared he's going to hit me or something. That's a joke. That's a joke. Yeah, he does get very upset when he loses money or has to spend money. Did you learn that or is that in your bones?

I think that was in my bones. I think I've always just kind of feeling like that. So now you know what I mean when I say something's in my bones. It's like you have to beat that out of me. We're literally the opposite. I have never been concerned about money. I've always always felt like I'll be successful. So I've just always spent like I've had it, even when I didn't.

I mean, when I was a, when I graduated law school, I had no money. Obviously, I was in a little bit of debt. And I took my summer associate paychecks and I went to. a lender and I bought a $100,000 S.L 500 Mercedes. And I hadn't even passed the bar exam yet. So I had a $110,000 car. I put zero money down. This is back when you could do that in like early 2000s. And I pulled up as a first year. So luckily I passed the bar and pulled up as a first year associate driving the nicest car. I had the entire parking garage. Really? We went from $300 cars to like $100,000. Why did you need that though? Why that?

I just enjoyed it. That was a cool car. I've always, because we could. We've always just, you know, spent like we were going to be successful. I don't necessarily recommend it. This is not, this is horrible advice. Just say, you know, just to make that clear. Don't follow this. Yeah. But do you think the thing is, oddly enough, I don't think we cared.

When we came back from traveling, we left very prestigious, you know, successful and financially rewarding jobs. Came back. I was driving my grandpa's like 1974, like Gold Lincoln Navigator. It was overheating all the time. It was like a $900 car. I actually sold it for $900 at it to a gas station. And I didn't care.

Like I was living in a one-bedroom apartment with Alex, like going back between the bed and the couch, like every month. I was still happy. When we are happiest years, you know, we're really happy now. But we were, you know, working on our hot rods and eating, you know, eating burritos out of the, you know, roach coach and just wearing, you know, tank tops and going to the gym and no money and no cares. I mean, I think we've never been concerned about being.

There was a year where we went to Subway, 360. at 365 days because they had like dollar six inch sandwiches and whatever the dollar six inch sandwiches and we were super happy we were super happy right like we had our friends we would just work out we had our you know our hot rods where do you get that inner confidence from because i don't think it's it's it's okay with things to buy the colors right no it's like just to be okay with never thought things would wherever you are but you were comfortable if they like it didn't matter if you were back on someone's couch in somebody's apartment right well it would matter if i was a failure like it would matter if i wasn't successful successful or working

working towards something, which one? No, I'm okay working towards something. Okay. But I would not be happy and I would not be able to live with myself if I wasn't becoming successful. Becoming. There we go. Yeah, I didn't see like a growth pattern for myself. So it doesn't mean that I can eat from a food truck every day. I'm fine with that as long as I know that I'm working towards something.

Can I give you an esoteric but really interesting example? It might be a bit hard to follow, but if you really get it, I think it's like one of the best things you can learn in life. if I can get this correct. They did testing on an experiment on mice. And there was three different groups of mice. Okay, it's horrible that they do this, but just follow the hand. So 50 mice, 50 mice in like three different cages, I guess.

And they would subject them, they gave all 150 mice serum that gave them a 50% chance of getting cancer. Okay, brutal, but just follow. They subjected the mice to different, I'm gonna try to get this right, sets of electric shocks. Okay, and electric shocks. So there was 50 that got no electric shocks, just a serum. So 24 of the 50 got cancer.

Right around 25 of them got cancer. Then there was 50 mice that were subjected to electric shocks randomly. They could do nothing about it. The mice just couldn't do anything. They just got electric shocks every once in a while. And then there was 50 mice that got electric shocks. But if they ran over to a pedal and pushed the pedal, the electric shocks would stop. But they were subjected to, and this is important, the same amount of aggregate electric shocks

than the 50 mice that didn't have the pedal. Okay, so same amount of electric shocks. But 50 of the mice had no control over their outcomes, no control over stopping the shocks. And 50 of the mice had an illusion of control. They could go push the pedal and stop the shocks. But they were still getting the same amount of shocks. The 50 mice that had no control of their lives, essentially,

80% of them got cancer, just because of the psychological wear of that. that, you know, basically torture. I already told you 50% of the mice that got no shocks, got the cancer because the serum give you a 50% chance to get cancer. The 50 mice that got shocks but had an illusion of control over their lives that could push the pedal and stop the shocks temporarily, got less cancer than the group of mice that had no electric shocks at all.

And I think that's very true, if you can follow that. With humans, you don't have to have a good life. You have to feel like you're in control of your future. like you have a sense of purpose. It is not the amount of electric shocks in your life, you know, just whatever is coming at you in life that makes you happy or makes you even physically healthy. It is just so he can be on a couch or whatever it is rotating with his friend.

It's not the circumstances per se that make your life happy or make it even healthy for your physical being. It's your illusion of, okay, I'm going somewhere, or I'm in the process of becoming successful, or I feel like empowered in some way, or I feel like I have a sense of purpose. And then you can even have a shittier life than a lot of other people, but you're actually physically healthier and happier.

It does make sense. It's a weird way to, but when I read this mice study, it blew my mind, and it's so applicable to human beings. Like, we were as happy in junior college. You're going to edit that out? Was it just a rambling? I loved it. And I've actually heard some, I think I heard that study or a study akin to that.

It's a famous study that's been duplicated, and it's really has interesting findings if you get into it. But go ahead. I'm just saying, like, as happy as I'd say we are now, I think that we were equally happy, you know, when we were 20 years old at community college, you know, no money, you know, sleeping on a couch, but working towards law school or, you know, working our way through school. Because we had a purpose, like we knew where we were going, so we had a plan.

And, you know, we just had friends. We were hanging out, working out. And so, such amazing years. We've never needed, you know, success or, you know, a ton of money. I never thought I would be this, you know, financially successful. But I've been happy for a long time, you know, well before I had any success, just because I had good friends and I had a plan. Do you, I mean, have you heard of like the happiness baseline, the theory that everybody has a

certain happiness baseline? It's predetermined by the time you're born. And then throughout life, obviously you'll go above it, you'll go beneath it. But generally speaking, you're always going to return to your baseline. Some people's baselines are very low. It's like a two or a three, five being average. Seven, maybe, you're a pretty happy person. Some people are just happy all the time.

And something horrible can happen to them. Maybe they like lose an arm or something like that. And they'll go down. But then they end up going right back to that baseline. Do you believe in that or do you think that the baseline can be adjusted and you can truly make long-term effects on your happiness levels over time? Oh, I definitely think you can, I mean, you can have a good relationship, you know, a healthy, you know, relationship with your family. You can have financial success. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one.

For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette. with a flame thrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. There's a lot of things that can improve your baseline, I think, for sure.

But also, I agree with, I think there's a lot of merit in what you're saying. I don't think that those two things can't live in the same world. What you're saying is. Yeah, I agree with the baseline. Now, there are some people who are just naturally a little... Just happier and natural. Depress. There's some people who are natural.

I think there's a lot of merit to that. But you can definitely adjust it. Yeah, what he's saying is you can adjust it. You can go from a two to a seven. Right. You know, but I think there's a lot of merit to that. I've just noticed some people, like, especially growing up, you know, with people I went to elementary school with, like, they seemed happy back then, and they've always continued

to be happy, even through pretty tragic events that have happened in their life. And they stay the exact same out. I think there are people who let life happen to them, and then there are people who, like, create their life. If you're, like I would say that we're people who just create our life. But maybe you're predetermined to do that. And that is, you know, I think that's true. Indicative of a higher baseline, you know?

I think that's right. I think people with purpose are generally happier. So in that sense, if you give yourself purpose or you find purpose in your life, you can increase your baseline. But I do think there are people with low baselines that can make a lot of good decisions and work really hard towards being happy. And it's 10 times it's hard for them to be happy as it is for somebody who's naturally happy. So I think there's a lot of merit to that.

There's also a problem there because we had Hormosey on the podcast. He said one thing that really stuck out to me, which is like if you think that achieving a certain something will make you happy, you are creating a dissonance between where you are currently and what you need in order to become happy. And therefore you're placing all the importance in the ends and not necessarily in the means.

And the people that are truly happy in this life place all of the importance on the means. Yeah. No, a lot of people don't enjoy the process. They are so focused on. There are very few people that like, oh, when I'm 65, I'm retiring, I'm going to be happy. Everything's like, you know, at that. And they don't really enjoy it up to that point.

None of those people are when they get the retirement when they get that whatever it is They're always like really This was what it was all about. One thing you said I really liked it was that every six months every three to six months You reevaluate where your happiness is on a scale and if it's going down You do change your circumstances so that you'll be happier and you do this in business Relationships friendships whatever it might be I found that really insightful I think that's really helpful for what metrics do you use to gauge your happiness I'm guessing you probably do something similar I ask a lot of my friends.

I'll be like, hey, how, you know, how's your happiness been the last six months, one to ten? And then, you know, some people will hem and ha, we'll be like it's up and down. I'm like, I know, I know, but just overall, I do that to myself all the time. Like, I make sure that I'm at least a seven. If I'm going several months and my average happiness isn't a seven, then I adjust something. What do you adjust? Like, do you know it would be, like, often a relationship, it could be work. It could, I have to analyze.

why I'm not happy. I could go, you know, I see a therapist. So they probably know you pretty intimately as well. They're like, hey, I noticed you spending a lot of time lately on this or you're missing out on this. And you're getting influences, like you're asking people, maybe like, hey, what does it seem like I'm lacking? No, no. I don't know. It's all intro. I mean, I will see a therapist and kind of like walk through what's going on. And you found good results from diagnosing the issue and truly actually solving the underlying. Yeah, I'd say, I mean, I can adjust my happiness like about a point just by like maybe I'm working too hard. You know, maybe I need more vacation.

Maybe I'm not, you know, happy in a relationship, or maybe I need more purpose, or maybe I want to, you know, or maybe I'm spending too much. I mean, I'll just figure it out like why I'm a little off-kilter. You haven't been working out, maybe. Yeah, or maybe I haven't been, I realize I haven't parted too much. I'm pretty too literally. So what I find interesting in that is the underlying belief that you have,

not total, but a lot of control over your just general happiness. Because I feel like it's kind of a taboo topic now where a lot of people think that like you just kind of are a product of the environment and you can't necessarily take control of your own happiness and do certain things and oh you go to the gym you wake up at this time you drink a lot of water this will actually make you happy a lot of people is that a product of our times I'm not keen to that I mean it's kind of like a thing nowadays like like personal development self-development stuff like like that people toss it out the window they think like oh that's a bunch of well I think

there has become a very significant victim mentality going on right now in society where I think people, rather than take the initiative and not make excuses, people are making excuses for themselves a lot. And maybe this is just my perspective, but I do feel like a lot of people these days are making excuses, as opposed to like the way we grew up, we would not make excuses for ourselves. We would just go fix it.

And we're also not types to like listen to self-help stuff. We're just like, it's not that complicated to go to the gym and go out socially and just do basic things that are good for your body and your soul. I don't personally need to listen to a 14-part series or read books on that kind of stuff. It's funny. That was one of the big clips from Andrew Tate was that if you feel bad about yourself or if you're depressed, go to the gym and get a six-pack and then come back and see your happiness level and how fulfilled you are. And in those cases, I'm sure a lot of people who just go to the gym and work on getting a six-pack

and just have one goal to work towards, find themselves thinking if I could achieve that one thing, I could do this and this and this, and all the doors seem to open up. I've heard Jordan Peterson say, clean your room. Yeah. It's the same concept. I agree with that. Clean your room, make your bed, go to the gym, go out to a bar by yourself for you or have friends. Just do basic shit and don't have a victim mentality.

Just do it. And you don't need to read a book or listen to a fucking part of it. That's so fascinating that you say like you don't look into self-help. Yet it appears like you guys are very happy and healthy people. One of I feel like the most mentally healthy friend that I have that I've known for a very long time, I asked him because I had been going through like the self-help phase or reading all these personal development books, et cetera. And he was like, yeah, I threw all that stuff out the window.

I stopped reading it. And he's like, it's all just a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. You just have to be happy. Which obviously it's very easy to say that, which is, it's interesting. But it seems as though it actually works for it. I do think that there is, I will give credence to those who say the happiest people are the ones who do not read the self-development books because seekers will always be seekers. Do you know happy people that are always looking at reading self-help books that are super happy?

I feel like it could get you on the right path, though. It can give you some tools, it's necessary, but it doesn't fix it. And if you think it's going to fix it, then you're in for a rude awakening. I think maybe that's the issue. They think it's going to fix it. And there's another thing that was in a book, Self-Help, ironically, that I read, which is that seekers will always be seekers. You just have to be a finder.

You know what I mean? Don't always think that this, you have to find. It's like taking 50 different vitamins instead of eating well. And also, I think there's a kind of a get-rich-quick mentality to it, meaning like you're trying to get an easy answer. And most often in life there aren't easy answers. Most often it's just hard work. And people don't want to recognize that.

They want to think that there's some trick. I mean, people come up to me like, oh, you know what? How can I be successful in real estate? As though I can just tell them something in 10 seconds it's going to make it easy. How about work your fucking ass off for the next decade? But nobody wants to hear that. I want to know about the abundance mentality that I see in you guys.

This is something I talk to Graham about a lot, actually. Because I think, obviously, there are a bunch of different groups of people, but I see the main two as abundance versus scarcity mentality people. Graham, I think, is very clear he's a scarcity mentality person. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Yeah. Okay. But I do think that there's some like you feel like a weight is lifted off of your shoulders.

You can see someone they look less stressed out when they're an abundance mentality person. You know what I mean? Where do you guys think this abundance mentality originated? And I'm sure seeing a lot of wealthy people all of the time as agents, brokers, etc. You probably see these two archetypes, right? The abundance mentality person. I can be honest. ever use

classifications like that because I feel like everything's on a scale in society. I think there's a huge, like,

reaction to try to, there's two different types. I don't think there ever is in pretty much anything. I think every

human being is, we're just on a scale of one to a hundred on everything. I don't think there's ever. But I do, I think that there is a merit in saying

that like if there is a spectrum and you have abundance scarcity, like people can skeet towards. There's a spectrum. Right. Right.

And I'm not just labeling because of course you can have probably a scarcity thought here and there and he can have But there aren't people that are, I mean, I don't even, I mean, I agree with the camps to some degree. But I think that there are people who are just always scared, you know, or concerned.

And there are people who just aren't, you know, and we'll take more risks. Like, we've always been risk takers because we don't, we're not scared people. And so I think that's helped us at a lot, just always taking risks. Do you see an overall difference in like the general fulfillment and happiness levels of people who come or who err more on the side of abundance mentality or the scarcity mentality because they both are actually good in and of themselves because they spur they spur what's your happiness one to ten what's my happiness I'd say some days a six some days are the last six average last six months probably at six I would say it's a little lower because you weren't too hard or what I would personally I think it's lack of a direction and lack of feeling

like it's bit like I talked before about being in the flow state where it's just like you're just zoning in on one thing have not found what that thing is for me yet. I love the podcast, but it's not something I could do 10 hours. What about the last five years up until the last six months? Probably eight overall. So that's the mouse that has the pedal versus the mouse that does it? Yeah. Right. Right. Or does that not make sense? No, it does. What, having control my life. You had the pedal the last five years up until six months. Now you don't have no. No, now I have a pedal. It's just I have so many pedals to pick from that it's like

figuring out what I want to do and where the direction is. Yeah, exactly. Which is interesting because when I talk to you five years ago, you wanted to be in this position five years ago. Yeah. So it's interesting how now you're looking back and you were happier then. Because you were like, oh, I need to slow down. Like I can't keep this pace up. You wanted more time.

Yeah. I was happiest when I came to you and I'm like, dude, I'm too busy. Yeah, exactly. And you're telling me to ease back. I'm like, no, I have to keep going. I was happy as I don't think there's a big difference in that between the scarciting and the abundance as far as happiness. I don't think that's what defines your happiness very much at all.

That's interesting. So I just, yeah, it's a purpose to me. It sense of purpose. Yeah. And control over your life. But I would say that if that sense of scarcity gives you anxiety, then it's going to make you unhappy. I mean, I think that they're both just tools that people use to be productive to get things done, is out of scarcity or out of a bun, as I just can. And that's interesting.

So you said you're at six right now, but over the past five years, you've been at eight, you said? So when have you ever been below a five? Because five would be average, right? So that would mean, you know, within the standard deviation, like most of your time, 87% or whatever is within. I don't know how per. Usually we end up cutting out the personal. So I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah.

But yeah, I think a lack of challenge for me is the big thing. I don't have that challenge of the newness of something that I could work on. But you're still above average? Overall, yeah. Because he's a good objective life. Yeah. Above average for yourself. I'm not asking like relative to other people.

Yeah, yeah. Above average for myself overall, but recently, I'd say the last six months has been just a lack of direction because I feel like I've done what I set out to do. What's next? I think that's an answer that a lot of. lot of people would give. That's why when people retire, sometimes are less happy. Yeah. Yeah. You do need, that's why I like, you know, as much as I don't want to like go open up another office, I'll go open up another office because it gives me that sense of purpose and direction,

you know, and responsibility. And I kind of thrive on like projects. That's what I was saying earlier, this whole, this whole mentality, which I think is fading now, but our parents definitely embraced it of like, I'm going to do all this until I'm 65 and they retire. It never works because they always like either get depressed or like die pretty much five years after they retire because they have no sense of purpose and they're just that this is everything I work for my whole life it's a horrific mentality to take in life

you just got to look at your life as like one long journey and not like two a journey to 65 and then just chilling it's just never never a good outlook because Graham's got everything he could possibly want right now and you're a six instead of an eight and you had less when you were an eight so it's the right yeah so it has nothing to do with that You were saying that earlier, like people, a lot of people say, I'll be happy when.

And that when never arrives because it does arrive and there's another when. So you're inevitably not going to be happy. So if you have to really just enjoy the process, which is why every six months I look back and I think, you know, you do too. And it's important to tell the viewers it's not money that makes you happy. I know. To an extent it is. Sure. Certainly can help.

Yeah, but I mean, all of the psychological studies show this like dramatically. It's not like Brett Oppenheim's opinion. There's a certain amount of money. I don't know exactly what it is where you don't have to sue. stress on your bills and things of that nature and you can go to Trader Joe's and not and get the blueberries and not care about it. Graham's not at that level of wealth yet. He's not yet. And then we're, you know, there's a lot of stress taken off you. And between that and a billionaire, the level of happiness is almost completely unrelated to money.

So you don't have to be a billionaire. What do you think the point of? A few, I think actually the state is like 350, 350. But it varies. The point is it. I think it's way lower. It's literally enough to not. I heard it was like a hundred. I think it's enough to be able to pay your electric. bill and pay your rent and get blueberries without stress. Well, perfect example. I mean, we're pretty damn happy.

I mean, I'd say, you know, maybe even an eight, you know, on average. But I would say that some of the best years of our lives are at least also an eight were when we had no money, you know, and we were like in high school, junior college, college, just, you know, struggling around with it. But with our buddies, I had the gym, you know, and I had a car. And that's all I needed. So I think, and we did not. not making $100 grand a year. So I think, like you said, as long as you just don't have the stress,

like you have a place to go home and you can feed yourself. You know, it's really, and then it's diminishing returns after that. Not to say that like my, you know, 1965 Bronco doesn't make me happy because it fucking does. I love it. All of our wealthy clients are no happier on average than a lot of our friends that don't have money. It's more about relationships. If you have good friendships, you're probably going to be happier than a wealthy person. What's something that you notice between your wealthiest clients that you'd say they all tend to have in terms of maybe a personality traits, how much money? I would say it's always interesting to me that my wealthy clients don't spend their money.

You know, they're frugal. Or at least to me, they are. Wealthiest? I mean, I would say that 90% of my clients who are wealthy and, you know, that varies from a million dollars to, you know, a billion dollars. 90% of them don't spend money in a manner that I think that they could and should. But do you see, like, within that range, a certain cost. concentration, like the ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra wealthy percentage of your clients are extra frugal?

Or is it just generally speaking, wealthy people are more frugal than... People with a lot of money, you would think, like, would just spend it. Like, I do. I mean, what's the point of it? I mean, even if I had kids, you know, yeah, I'd make sure that my kids had enough money. But I just, it's interesting to me, like, I'll go out, let's say, and buy a very expensive 1965 Ford Bronco, because I fucking love it. That objectively is fun to drive.

And I've got a lot of clients wealthier than me that would never pay that kind of money for a Bronco. And I'm like, why? You could easily afford that. And it's fun. Like, why would you not do something fun? Different person. Yeah, it's just interesting.

But I think why a lot of people don't spend a lot of money is because making money is like a game. I think a lot of people, I would say maybe mostly men, but because they have maybe more game mentality in their brains. But I think that they just go through life saying, I want to accumulate as much as I can. Not because I need it, not because I'm going to spend it. It's like a game.

The more money I'm winning. You know, it's like points. And so if they spend their points, then they don't have as many points, even though it doesn't matter because they have enough points to live 50 times. But it's just like this point mentality. I'm not saying it's wrong. I feel like a lot of men in particular just have this like this mentality through life. I want to accumulate as many points as possible. Those are the rules and I want to, you know, consider myself a winner.

And it's not even like, it's not a bad thing. I just that's the way they look at money, I think. That's pretty accurate, I would say. It's fun. It's fun accumulating points. It's like with you. Like I think you and all of my, you know, well, people my wealthy clients and friends who just spend more I mean it is objectively fun to

fly all your your friends to Cabo of what I'm doing this week and getting a nice place but I worry is that sustainable like if your income drops to zero tomorrow I would I would that's the scarcity I don't like to do things that I know I can't continue so if I get something because I worry if I level up my life I don't want to ever but that's that that that's that scarce that's the scarcity mentality and I think I mean like for example like I will fly first class even though it's obnoxiously expensive and it doesn't make any sense related to what a coach ticket costs.

But what's the point of having money if you're not going to fly first class? But then I feel like you could slowly level up over time. Like if my life gets 3% better every year in terms of a lifestyle, then I know I could look forward in 10 years. I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem.

I think your mentality makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't dissuade people from that and towards yours at all. In fact, I mean, I probably dissuade people towards grams. I think there's something about your personality and maybe to a slightly lesser extent, but pretty similar in my personality. We get a lot of enjoyment and things from that. I'm not sure I would push that on other people.

I think objectively, on paper, your scenario makes a lot more sense. Although I think you could, I think you take it to the extreme, but whatever. But I have seen, too, with my own clients, that the wealthier they are, the less likely they are to spend the money. And the first deal I ever did, it was in the flats on Linden Drive. And it sold, I think, $3.5 million bucks. That's a hell of my first deal. Yeah, $3.5 million cash. And the guy was probably spending another $2 to $3 million, renovating me.

entire place and like tearing down most of the thing but I remember with him he was even negotiating the inspection on the house to get that inspection charge down and I'm talking like saving a hundred bucks yeah oh and that so that's actually six million dollars cash you probably gravitate towards those clients I love them yeah he was great yeah maybe then spending money is I think at the very least take away the annoyance that that that can be caused by having to pay attention to money like I I have not looked at a restaurant bill in years. So that for me is just peace of mind.

I haven't looked at a credit card statement in years. Am I getting screwed? Probably. Everyone's a lot. But I don't mind. That's the point is I don't want to have to look at a restaurant bill. Pretty soon all the bills like. I probably have a,

I have no idea. But that's for me like, you know, or somebody or my, you know, gardener or I just got a text like they're like, oh, your sprinkler at Hercules isn't working. and they want to, you know, it's like 900 of them. I'm like, fine. I don't want to have to review that invoice. Am I getting screwed a couple hundred dollars? Maybe. I don't, I don't care. That's the beauty of having money. See, that's what you can't. If you still are grinding, if you're still looking at this invoice and you're saying, hey, how much of this is, you know, labor? How much of materials? You know, is that sod, really, you know, $12 a square foot. I can get it for $10

a square foot. That's what's happened to me and that's where I spent a lot of my time. I recently had a guy to remove a little pipe and charge $600. And I said, no, because I know it's maybe a $75 thing. I used to be. You shouldn't need that. But then I thought to myself, so what's the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is that I'm getting screwed, a couple hundred dollars,

which I can totally afford. And this guy is getting an extra couple hundred dollars so he can go to the movies, take his wife out to dinner. Fine. Then I'm getting screwed, and this guy's having a slightly better life. Great.

I mean, that's not a problem for me. And so if I just reverse it, instead of me getting screwed, it's like me just being nice. And I get enjoyment out of that. He gets, I mean, I don't mind. I don't, if the waitress charge me for,

two stakes instead of one and the rest. I don't care. Like that to me, if you're wealthy and you're still worried about this type of shit, then then you're not getting advantage of your wealth. To me, I guess it's more of a principal thing because sometimes it'll show up to the house. If you're still worried about principal, then you're not allowing your money to make you happy. Sure. You just got to get over the whole getting screwed. You got to get over the principal. People are, he's so focused on principle. Like he, a waiter will, you know, not, will screw up. And he'll like, I'm like, but you don't need to complain. Maybe he's like, well, then the next person, we'll get the right salad dressing.

Like, who gives a shit? It's not your job to, like, have to fix everything. I just stop doing that. I'm so much happier now. At what dollar amount do you start paying attention? Like, 10,000, 20,000? I'm probably not a good answer because I don't care, really. For me, I go to an extreme and just, you know, not stressing about anything.

Like, that to me is the beauty of money is not stressing. So I don't stress about anything. When did that start? At what point? I've been that way, even when I didn't have money. Really? Yeah, which is a dangerous, you know, luckily they have money now. sounds like true wealth you know what I mean like if we're maybe being a little bit more

flexible with the definition of the word wealth but our clients have way more money than like when we go to dinner I buy I haven't not bought a dinner in years you know whether we went to dinner last night with nine people I bought dinner I will never not buy dinner because I can I mean I don't if you have some wealth and why would you not buy dinner for everyone like I think the wealthiest person should just buy everything you know because it affects them the least and yet you know I have wealthy clients that just don't do that and I'm like what's I don't get the point them. It's not a wealth thing because that's a mentality thing that he takes to the extreme. But our clients are all

most of our, a lot of our clients are wealthier. Some of them far, far, far wealthier. That's more of a mentality thing. That's interesting. I don't necessarily, well, I guess I agree with it if, like, he also has a lot of confidence he's always going to be creating wealth and he doesn't have much responsibility beneath them. So, you know, this isn't exactly

like the perfect mentality for everyone. Well, like an example, my mom is building like a she shed in her backyard. And she's was, I called her, she's and she's like stressed out over this invoice. She's like, well, Jason, should I care this? The Gardner charged me $50 for knee pads, you know, but he's going to take those with him, you know, after the job.

So I shouldn't have to pay for those. I'm like, oh, my God, Mom. Like, you have money. Why would you let the, I mean, so you bought your Gardner knee pads? Who gives a shit? Like, to me, it's like, why would you ever spend 15 seconds of your life worrying about something like that? Who cares?

Our mom is more like you. Yeah. Not to sit straight. It's so frustrated for me, though. I'm like, what's the point? Like, we leased her a Mercedes and she, is like, but over the moon for the last seven years of driving it. I'm like,

you could afford them. You know you can afford Mercedes, right? Yeah, but it's doing the things like that that she wouldn't do for herself. I'd be the same way. That's my point, though. She will review. We would do it for ourselves. Invoice and she'll, you know, and she'll see a $50 charge for knee pads that, you know, the gardener's going to take with him and that will

cause her anxiety and stress and she's feeling like it's unfair. Like, I don't know. I'm just 100% of it seems like your life is completely designed around minimizing stress. Yes, it is. Anything you could do to pay for that inconvenient? Yes. You just pay it.

It doesn't matter. Exactly right. For me, that's the beauty of having you. But he has a lot of stress. So, like, if you don't, you might as well, and I'm not saying you don't, but you might as well then try to maybe save some money and focus on that. But if you're just being bombarded with different inputs of stress all day long and you can, with through money that's coming in more than you're spending, if you can minimize

the stress down here by spending some of that money that's coming in, then that probably makes sense from like utilitarian perspective. It does seem like. You think you want brokers or just that way? Yeah, I have some burger. It does seem like, though, you are stressed. about a lot of like real estate deals, renovations, managing multiple offices on the show. It's like, the stress that I enjoy, like I enjoy work stress because I love work.

I don't enjoy personal stress. So I avoid it or I pay my way through it. For real, bro. I get half of it, man. I was all excited and this is what, this is what you guys are fighting? I'm half eaten folded burger. Why did you fold the burger? Oh, I didn't. You wonder why we fight it? He's an idiot. I look fucking good. You guys could share it?

Bite after bite, share it. How is it? Is it good? You're welcome. The fries are shit now. Cold. Yeah. Yeah, cold fries are tough.

Okay. One thing that you were talking about, there's a lot of media on you. So it's really easy. I'm guessing you're probably, like you said, somewhat, you're very similar. You share a lot of philosophies, perspective, et cetera. You were saying on some sort of an interview

that perspective is the most important thing when you're considering an adjustment, adjusting your happiness levels, right? Something akin to that. I'd say perspective is probably the most important thing to create happiness. And it's also the hardest thing to get. You can't buy perspective. You can buy almost everything.

And you also... Are you the one that does all the research and Graham just sits here and... Basically. Graham does a good amount of research, but sometimes I go a little over. Jack has a good perspective because I know you guys. It's hard for me to ask questions that I know answers to. Versus Jack, it has a good balance because he has very little knowledge and experience. You have very little knowledge

I have a very little knowledge I'm actually in telling that I let that You said that We're cutting that part out I said something earlier that was horrible I said Grammy'd have to beat that out of me In some other context

I was like that probably didn't Someone's going to clip just that little part You're saying perspective Will always change If you climb the socioeconomic hierarchy Something akin to that And other hierarchies of life How do you keep your perspective

in check and make sure it still has a positive impact on yourself. I'm probably not great at keeping perspective. I mean, if I had perspective, my level of happiness would probably be a 10 all the time. But you get jaded. You know, you're just like, you know, your perspective changes. So things become normalized and then you take them for granted. That's, that's just human nature. I try to, what, did I quote? I try to keep perspective like, oh, you know, I'll talk to my therapist. I'll just reflect in all the good things that are going on in my life. Gratitude will do it. Yeah, it makes you, because you lose appreciation, like naturally human nature is to just start taking things for granted. Friendships, you know, relationships, wealth, automobile, house.

Like, you just start health. I mean, almost everyone takes their health for granted, right, until they're not healthy. So it's hard to just sit back and reflect in the morning. Wow, I'm healthy. I'm going to have a great, healthy day to day. I can go to the gym. I can go running. You just don't.

You just live your life and you're healthy and you take it for granted. You take your friendships for granted. I take Brett for granted. I take wealth for gunn. I take my success for granted. I take the Netflix show for granted. Everyone generally starts to take the place for granted. The more you understand that, the more you, I think you can understand the concept of happiness.

Because I'll give a quick example. We got a house in the hills. Our dad bought it. We were able to move there when we were in law school. And I remember, it was like my dream. I was ridiculous. I was living in a one-bedroom apartment. I remember getting up to this house and I was staying on the balcony with the views.

And I was like, holy fuck. And then I looked up and it was like a bigger house. It was like a bigger house like three blocks up. I'm like, holy shit, that's the how. It lasted like 30 seconds, you know? And so if you realize that, because people are always thinking, if this, then this, then I'll be happy. Then I'll be, no, you'll have a, then you'll just want more.

You'll have a new perspective. That's not the way happiness works, which means you might as well look at what you have now and be happy. Because I can promise you it doesn't scale the way you think it does. You know what, how there was actually a particular moment of our lives where I think this perspective hit me. Brett and I were traveling. We were in Egypt. we were behind the pyramids like a mile behind the pyramids it was just like sand and they were like you know 12 or 15 kids

barefoot running around like the 110 degree sand playing soccer with like little makeshift goals and a soccer ball that had like more duct tape you know than anything it was basically a duct tape ball and they were laughing and having so much fun and we jumped in the game we played for like an hour and a half with these kids it was so much and I just saw they're smiling so much and they're laughing so much and it just and I'm like these kids are They're like happier than I am. They're, you know, probably living, you know, on a dollar a day, playing with a duct tape soccer ball on 150 degree heat, you know, with no shoes on. And they're as happy as can be. And that's perspective. I mean, that moment in our lives, I have a photo of it with us, Willie's kids. That just, I think, taught me that perspective is everything.

That's what creates happiness is perspective. You know, there's American kids playing on a perfect field, the perfect ball, and, like, they're structured, their uniforms, and they're mad at their mom because they didn't get the cool cleats that they wanted. You know what I mean? It's like everything is perspective in life, but human nature is to lose perspective. So knowing that you're not going to fight it because human nature is

you're never going to wake up every morning. Be like, oh my God, I'm grateful for this and this. You know, I mean, you can try it, but it's not going to happen. So if you realize that, then what you are really realizing is all these goals of like wealth and happiness and if I get this and this and it doesn't work out that way. Life never works out that way.

So if that's the case, embrace it and just realize, okay, I'll mind as well, happy with what I have now because I'm realizing that if I have a bigger house, that's not going necessarily increase my happiness. I'm just going to want then a bigger house. So chill out and just be happy with what you have and want more. That's human nature. But don't think that it's necessarily, don't always have that mentality. I think you talked about later where it's like, I'm going to be super happy when I achieve this. It never works out that way. I think those perspective checks are incredibly important. I had one because I was thinking about it since you said it in an interview and

It was kind of like in my subconscious, just kind of like marinating there. And then last night I went to this party and they gave you these wristbands. And the wristbands have this adhesive where you wrap it around and stick it to the other side. And when the lady put it on my hand, it just went all over my arm hair. Maybe 5% of the piece of actually went on a tape. You guys know what I'm talking about. We have wristbands put us last night at the same. It's like she tried.

I always bend it over. Except you have more arm hair. I mean, it's like she tried to cause me as much pain as possible. And she did it and I looked at it. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. And I'm looking around. I'm like, well, this is a pretty cool party and they have an open bar and there's a bunch of people here I'm excited to talk to. And then I forgot about the wristband, but I let myself sit with it for like 15 seconds.

I'm like, this is so stupid. Why would she do this? How would she so bad at her job? And then I go and I have an amazing night. I wake up the next morning and I feel tugging on my wrist and I look and there's just like all of my arm hair is just wrapped up in this thing. And then I just go and I rip it out, get a bunch of arm hair with it. And I'm like, that is so silly that I even cared about that at all. Especially when I was ripping it off of my, you know, my arm. It's like it, there are so many. real actual problems that people face on a daily basis and you said in this interview you're like I don't have real problems and I have never thought about it like that like I don't have a serious health problem I can afford a roof over my head I can afford to feed myself my family my immediate family everyone's healthy everyone's

fine I don't have real problems and to admit that to yourself and to admit that to all of the people watching here it's a very gutsy thing to do because when you have problems people they honestly kind of like respect you they see you as more when you have problems it's like really especially now in society I think it's one of the biggest things is you're defined by your problems how much of a victim you are on the scale is like how good of a person you are and obviously so much I mean obviously I'm very fortunate to say I don't have real problems in the same way that you guys say that you do not have real problems but it's just such a

dose of reality of like okay I ripped out my arm hair who cares who cares it really doesn't mean much yeah yeah how do you keep perspective like that Oh, it's super hard. I mean, you have to consciously remind yourself of the good things in your life to be appreciative. I mean, it's actually work. You got to work at it. Otherwise, you just take everything for granted and then you just realize you're not as happy. What problems would you say you have today? I know you say they're not real problems, but if you really think like today, like what problems are you experiencing, even though they might not be real problems. Pretty bad hangover. That's a real issue right there. Yeah. Either half of that hamburger.

Yeah. Cold hamburger and a hangover. It's a bad French fries. I was going to say, I don't think I have any real problems. I would imagine maybe it's like the real estate market slowing down, the performance of the show, maybe opening up new offices, you know. I just, I used to let things get to me and I just don't anymore. Like I'm oddly really good at just not getting.

frustrated these days. It's a skill set that I think I've just done really well I think almost by necessity I have so many problems you know that could be stressful and I just I just now I'm choosing not to let them stress me out. Have you guys ever had a health problem or a serious one close family member with a health problem? Yeah, not nothing severe and no. If you ever I don't when I got back from traveling I had like a year and I don't know people have much bigger health problems than that but But if you have any type of health threat that gives you the perspective of potentially losing your health, it puts your whole life in perspective for the rest of your life. That's, to me, the only real problem people can have is health.

Money is like, unless if it's affecting your health, if you literally can't feed yourself. But I think if you don't have a health problem and there's no one very close to you that has a health problem, you pretty much don't have problems. I love this quote. I think about it all the time. Well, I should think about it more honestly. But it's you have 100 problems until you have a health problem, then you have one problem.

Anything is very true. One thing that I think we already hit on this, but I think it's still worth noting, I feel like whether it's in universities or I'm not sure where it started, but this victim mentality now, I think, makes people unhappy, you know, because I think we're teaching people rather than go solve a problem, it's just to victim, you know, to feel like you're a victim. It doesn't mean that you're not a victim. There are millions of victims and bad shit happens all the time.

And it doesn't mean you can't talk about it. It doesn't mean that you can't complain. But then shut up and go fix it. You know what I mean? Like, don't just sit in. I think a lot of people like the attention that they get from it or the support that they get from it. Someone goes online says, I'm a victim.

Here's what happened to me. Here's how bad the situation is to get thousands of comments or tens of thousands of views saying, oh, you know, we stand by you. No, it's a whole. It's a whole. It's a whole. To fix. Which, by the way, doesn't mean that requires effort as well.

Deny the problem. I mean, by no means are there not significant problems out there. People are victims of those circumstances. But I just wish we had a more mentality of like, okay, now pick yourself up. I agree. I think personal responsibility needs to be taken to a severe degree. Yes, a severe degree. Can I give another ramble of a study?

Rats this time? I love study. How many mice died in the study? This is a, dude, I'm like insecure about this burger being all over my mouth. No, I don't see anything. No. You're pretty good. You got a little something out there.

Oh, is it's so much. shit in my teeth. That's not so bad. Every time I had a meal with her, she would point out shit that was stuck in my teeth. And I'm like, is getting stuck in my teeth more now that I'm with you? Or was it always that way? And you're just the only person that I'm trying it out. Now I'm like traumatized. This is actually a really good study. So, and just to be clear, this is not to say that there are millions of victims and the society doesn't have a lot of issues. But it's an important study to understand as far as like success in life. So there was, and it's a famous study. It's been replicated. It's not, you know, my opinion again. So,

There was like 15 people that got facial scars put on their face with makeup. Have you heard of this one? Yeah. Okay. It's incredible if you're... Yeah. It's really important to people to understand. So they have these facial scars that makeup artists put on their face and they say, okay,

you're going to go into an interview and we're going to see how the interview goes and I'm going to ask you if your facial scars played a role in your interview. And the interviewers have no idea what's going on. And so these 15 people go into a room right before the interview after they look at the mirror and they see their scars. They go into another room and the makeup artist. just says, oh, I'm just going to touch up these scars real quick right before you walk into the interview space. And without these people knowing, because there's no mirrors in that room, that makeup ours is actually taking the scars off. So they go into the interview with no scars, but they think they have massive facial scars. And they get interviewed, and then they're,

they come out of the interviews for the job interviews, and they're asked by the people they're running this study, did your scars play a role at all in this interview process? And I think there was 15 of the people. And like 10 or 11 of the people said, he couldn't stop or she couldn't stop looking at my scars, made explicit comments. I knew I wasn't going to get the job right when I walked in the comments like that, you know, just like defeatist comments. 11 or 12 of the 15 said things of that nature. I mean, some of them went as far as to say he made explicit comments about my scars.

Just, you know, just anyway. Then the interviewer said, look, none of you had scars when you were in those interviews. And it was such an illuminating defeatist victimization, you know, conclusion that these people who have been coming to. And it just shows so much about human mentality. If you go into a situation thinking that you're a victim, you're going to be a victim. And it doesn't mean that some people don't have facial scars, because, I mean, metaphorically, some people are in a position where they're going to walk into an interview and have a problem. But they, you know, then they have to either probably work harder than other people. And there's a lot of people that go into that

interview thinking they have these issues that really don't. And if you go in with the defeatist mentality, you're not going to get that job no matter what. So I would just advise people to go into that room thinking that you don't have facial scars, even if you do. And I'm not to say the world is fair. Some people have, you know, have hurdles. They have to clear that others don't. And that's, I'm not opining on the absence of that in society. Clearly, there is. If you want to succeed in life, you know, that study shows a lot. Understand that the implications of that study if you want to succeed in life. Yeah, it's a difference between overcoming versus complaining. And right now we are rewarding complaining. And we should be rewarding, you know, where do you think that changed? Because I don't

remember 15 years ago rewarding complaining me neither yeah I feel like it's something's 10 years ago it started in the last few years it's it's it's gotten a lot worse who do you think is supporting this message well it's like it has to be institutions or something right like there's got to be a deeper thing going on than just like there's got to be something missing that that has opened up opportunities right there's got to be some sort of efficiency I think I think it's good intentions I think it's good intentions that started it I think it's The good intentions of bringing awareness to people who do have problems in society, which is a good intention to have.

I just think it's gotten to a point now where it's making life worse for a lot of people instead of better, which is really unfortunate because I think the intentions were good. Because there's a difference between exposing problems and then complaining about them. I mean, I think exposing problems and addressing problems is good. But I think that we need to, instead of just valuing, you know, victimization and, like, supporting victimization, we have to. And beyond that, literally defining people by their level of victimhood, you know, it's almost like, I don't know, it's almost like in reverse of what you might want to be doing. It is kind of, it's like a medal that you kind of, like, proudly wear a lot of the times. But then it could easily give that person a feeling of this is who I am.

I am a victim, and I'm going to see everything through that victim lens. I'm going to go into every conversation that I have with you. other human being thinking that I have a scar on my face. And that's not a good way to go through life. Even if you do, I have a scar on your face. And I'm using that, obviously, metaphorically. And it can't be a good, it can't be good for happiness. No.

Feeling like you're a victim, you know. It's the control thing. And yeah, exactly. You can't run over and hit that lever, you know, and you're making excuses. But when you actually can run over and you can hit that lever, that's what makes you happy. So I think there's, it's got to be creating a, you know, dissatisfaction among people to feel like they're victims.

And again, that's not to say there aren't victims. You know, but it's just to say like, you get it. You're going to separate, like, being aware of the systemic issues in society and doing your absolute best to ameliorate those. And then there is the defining people by their level of victimhood and giving them, giving people like a mentality of like an almost an inability to overcome because there's consumed with that victimhood. Those are two different things.

And I think we started in a good place and ended up over here. Well, using it as an excuse. like there's a you can raise awareness and you can address an issue but you can then you can also use it as an excuse that's where I think where is the problem is that people are using their victim as an excuse rather than just getting

up and going and solving it if you had a child with a disability you know um you could either parent them by saying look you're going to you're constantly saying you're going to have these struggles you're going to have you're not going to get hired it's going to be 10 times tired of you I feel so bad for you like this is this is this is a really horrible situation that you're in that's one way to raise

that kid and you can track that kid's progress through life. And another way to raise that kid is you're going to have to work four times as hard because you have this disability. And I'm going to give you the confidence and I'm going to tell you that you can overcome anything you want. And you raise the kid that way. You want to track those two people through life and see who comes out with a half of your life. Didn't they do that? They did the study like that with orphans, didn't they? With the stuttering, did you see this? Are we talking about studies now? Thank you. Yeah, we are. So they did this with orphans. They found two groups of orphans. I think this was in the 40s or 50s, one had severe stuttering, and the others were perfect speakers. And they put half of the perfect

speakers in with the stuttering group and half of the stuttering people in with the perfect speakers. And so one group was told, you speak fine, you speak great. The other was like you have a severe problem. And they found that the ones who spoke normally, but were put into the stuttering group, started developing stutters. And they could not speak as well versus the stutterers were put in the normal group. The exact same treatment as all the other normal kids, and they started speaking better. was really the environment that they that molded their personality and they're stuttering to that. I mean, I think that's, if there's one thing I can point to as to, I think, how we became successful is that it was instilled in us by our parents when we were young that we could achieve

anything we wanted to do. And they didn't just say that. Like, they actually convinced us that we could do whatever we wanted and that we would be great at whatever you wanted. So I think it's the opposite of victim mentality. Like they just said, no matter what, you are capable of doing whatever you want. You're going to be great at it if you work hard enough. Was that how they were raised to? Because it seems like both of them were successful in their own rights. I don't necessarily think so. Yeah, I'm not sure they got this saying.

And you're right. Maybe I was minimizing a little bit of that when I was saying that it's in my bones, which it is in my bones. But I do think there's definitely a nurture perspective. And our parents did raise us that way. And I think that's how you have to raise your kids, no matter what levels of obstacles they're going to have to overcome because of one thing or another. You have to raise your kids with that mentality,

because that's what breeds success and happiness. of kids would you guys want any kids? Nice transition. Probably. I'd say if I had to guess in my life, I'd say maybe it's 50-50, but it's not going to be anytime soon. 70-30 against. I'm also 46 years old right now.

I don't even have a girlfriend, so I'm a little behind the curb on that. Yeah, but I could have a kid at 55 and a way. Yeah, but then you're going to be like a 75-year-old. I don't know. I'm 75 on a big-old. I'm like a 50-year-old when I'm 75. Okay, so you have nine more years. Max. I know someone had a kid at 72. I'm not saying it physically. Isn't there like like dicey stuff, biological stuff that can happen to the kid if you have a kid at like 70? I don't think for them. Yeah. Not for the male perspective. No, no, that's not true. Your sperm, you have a higher likelihood of autism and a lot of other things if you're well, whatever. I would do it in vitro then over 45. Sure. Have you frozen any sperm? Yeah. I also froze sperm like 10 years ago. I did too. Yeah. Just because I did actually hear that that, that, um,

an older man can have, like, a less healthy sperm. Do they know that? But it's not as big of an issue for women are born with all their eggs, so they actually age, whereas they produce semen every day. But that's, do they know the long-term side effects of, like, a frozen sperm kid? I don't think there are any. There are none? But how long does this existed?

Well, it's not true. For those things, I think, can get damaged over time. Yeah, frozen sperm, didn't they, they froze the fertilized embryo. I think it was like 30 years. Yes, embryo. And they had a perfectly good, you know, chimes and they had a perfectly good, you know, It's perfectly healthy normal. But the child technically like, you know, 30 years old by the time they're actually born.

It's celebrated his 31th birthday. That's a whole other debate we could go. I'm not going to go down that road. Is that child 31 or 1? Starts drinking at 10. I'm 40 years old. Actually. He's getting Social Security.

It's interesting because along the of people tell me who are really successful they say oh if if if I could have had kids earlier I wish I had done that versus waiting later you know I there's a lot of different reasons why people have kids I have a ton of purpose in my life so I don't need a child to create purpose in my life in fact I also am very happy and very fulfilled a lot of people also this mentality of like creating legacy which we just don't have it all it's like I mean what so you're gonna be in a I don't know it's like every Every family dies off.

Every name gets, you know, taken out of the history books event. Like, who cares? I don't, I don't have, I don't, I'm missing that whole. We don't have, like, a need for our name to live on, you know. Like, I just, a lot of people have that. I'm dead. I'm in a box. I don't care.

When I say, everyone's like, what about your last name? What about your business? What I'm like, everything dies? Everything decomposes over time, like in life, every, everything. Do you think that's depressing to think about, though? I don't. I don't. I think it's just going to disappear one day.

Really? I'm actually happy. That makes me sad to think that like 100 years from now, like, just people won't remember you. I don't know. It makes it seem like everything you do is very insignificant. It is. Isn't that a cool feeling? I think that's a cool feeling.

Do you? When I look up at the stars, it gives me that feeling perspective of like, literally this planet doesn't even matter, let alone my life. It actually makes me happen. It makes you take things less seriously. Like, you know, the, oh my gosh, there's a, my, there's a clip that came out today from my show of, like, Chriselle and my girlfriend at the time, like, having lunch. and they were not getting along. And it was stressful for me. But then I was like, you know what?

Like, I'm going to look back on this in a year and it's not going to be a laugh at it. And you know what? It's been a few months and I'm already not stressed about it. Everything is insignificant. I was so stressed out at the time. And I'm like, you know what, I guarantee you in six months this will not be important to me. It never is. Nothing is important to me six months down the road.

Nothing that I think at the time is worth being stressed about. Yeah. It was looking back ever worth stressing about. So now I just don't stress. I would advise anybody who's stressed about anything just to look up at the stars, depending on where you live. It's tough in L.A. I mean, that just sounds cheesy, but it's like, for me, when I look up with that, it just gives you the unbelievable understanding of the insignificance of not only your life, not only the human race, but planet Earth, this galaxy, to the universe. We are as meaningless as you could possibly imagine.

Like, no offense to anyone in this room. I don't care if you're like the president. Your life is pathetically meaningless to the universe. And to me, that's actually, like, calming, you know? This seems like a newer development, especially for you, Jason, because I feel like five years ago, you were very careful to curate the, you know, the image that you wanted out there and be very careful with it. And so maybe a clip like that would have just like you would be making phone calls. I was stressed out all the time. How did this get out there?

What are the people saying? Delete those comments. Like, what changed? Some of the first three of producing. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I would say if I had to attribute it to one thing, I'd probably say therapy. I started seeing that therapist four or five, four years ago maybe. And I would say within a year or two, I have a list in my phone of like the things that I need to work on.

But some of the things in that list just really made me stop stressing. Like, and internalizing things. I mean, I think a lot of anxiety is internalization of other people's actions. Yeah. And it was such a cliche thing that she told me. Like, you know, other people's actions are a reflection of them and not me. And, you know, don't sweat the small stuff and everything is small. Like all these really cliche things that you might even find in a book.

But they hit me pretty hard. And I started thinking about those things every day. Like when I would have a coffee, I'd read my list. And within a couple years and continuing to see her, I really just stopped worrying about stuff. Like I am probably at my happiest right now because I have the least amount of stress. I have probably more problems in my life right now than I did five years ago and I am five times less just out.

So you have a list of things just to internalize every day? Yeah. Can you share some of those things that like maybe share the things that other people could learn from because I'm curious what those are. Yeah, I mean I should get contact

with the therapist. I would be more than happy to you but I remember the part for me the reason I brought that up was because I posted a listing on my Instagram. This is when the YouTube channel was just taking off and I posted a new listing on there.

I think it was the Marvell Vista listing and someone commented something like this is a motherfucking cool listing or something like that and you had seen that comment Yeah, you said Graham why do you have vulgar unsophisticated people commenting on your Instagram? Delete that comment. We don't want the you know the seller to see this guy when you started your When you started YouTube up in the upstairs in the office and you were cussing. I'm like yeah, I will not have cussing if you're sitting in this office You know on YouTube. Yeah, but that worked because then YouTube started demonetizing vulgar videos. Oh, where you're working? But yeah, I cared a lot.

I cared a lot. The first year we were producing selling Sunset, we would argue with the producers like nuts. Oh, they released the B-roll of us. We were stress cases. We were yelling at everyone. We were, like, so upset.

About everything. About everything. And then now we're just like, just do what you want, you know, whatever. Yeah, I mean, the idea that I was, they wanted me to go on a date in like season one. I'm like, oh my God, I would never go on a date.

I would never put my relationship on camera. And now, like, you know, every people, my whole relationship, And the breakup is all on camera. Like, I just don't care anymore. Does that bother you, though, to either read the comments about it or people speculating about it? I am so thick-skinned.

I haven't, I don't even- Literally don't read comments, honestly. And if I did read bad comments, I would just laugh them off. I'm just oddly thick-skinned. And I think it's great for this, for what we do. Because if you don't have thick skin, you're going to have a problem. If you think about the type of person that's, like, sitting in their room commenting on someone's, some character in a reality show.

I mean, it's not to say that everybody that does that is like a loser. but I mean but if you're taking the time about my Instagram and you're that negative about my height or my what I say

that doesn't say more about that person than it does about you yeah that's that's on my list like other people's actions are a reflection of them let's hear this list well that's probably my favorite one

oh my gosh don't be too hard on yourself I can be very hard of myself I'm less hard on myself now like I don't judge myself as harshly as I used to and that makes me more half that's good don't take things personally

let's see don't let's see don't let Brett get under your skin, be less judgmental and validate him. Is that, is that on there? Did you ask him to reflect. That must have been added really recently. This morning.

Reflect on how great life is. That's like part of the perspective. Perspective. Positive reinforcement at the office. Don't criticize mistakes. Make them teachable moments. I try to be a better boss. I've been working on that.

And honestly, I have be a positive personality. And then I have in parentheses, Nico and Zelda. My dogs are like the happiest people on the planet. They're amazing. And I like to like just watch. people but Zelda's like I'm like why can I be as happy as Zelda? She has she's so happy. All she does is run around on a floor all day long, you know, eat twice a day and she's the happiest creature on the planet. So I mean, how come I know? I can't be happy. But the best will be

less serious and other people's actions are a reflection of them, not me. That's that one honestly, I would get so validate grand. Yeah. I would be so reactive to people. You know, like they And it's people all have their reasons for whatever, you know, they're going through and, you know, their actions. And not everyone's a good person or not everyone's at a good moment in their life. And I would internalize that stuff, you know, like, and now I just, I realize that's not about me. Like that's about you. You're making a comment, a nasty comment on my Instagram. That is a reflection of you.

You're probably not in a happy space. I don't internalize that. No happy person, no confident, happy person makes, consistent negative comments about other people. That is a fact. There is no confident, happy person making negative comments on Instagram about other people. That's a fact. Does it ever translate to in person? Like, do

negative people ever come on to you? No, 100% of course. The same people that would rip you a new one on Instagram, like just take a picture with you if they see you on the street, you know? Yeah. But I try to tell the women that, you know, because they, you know, some people internalize stuff more than others. that, you know, it's really a reflection of them. They're not in a good space or they're jealous.

And there's a lot of that out there. And rather than them, you know, sitting with those emotions, they'll lash out and try to take other people down. I mean, there's a, I'd say if there's two huge problems in society that I would point out, one is the victim mentality that I think that we are almost rewarding at this point. And the other one is just a lot of unhappy, insecure people trying to tear other people down. Like people love tearing people down. It's like a sickness.

I don't understand that. It's, it props yourself up when you're putting other people down. You know, you're not that person. You are morally patting yourself on the back when you say, this person is there one of those isms.

Are there an isst? You know what I mean? But that comes from an insecurity. So, listen, at the end of the day, insecurity and a lack of confidence probably causes 90% of the problems on this planet. If people were more secure and more confident,

we would not have any of the problems. How do you bolster confidence and security? It's tough. I think it's the little things we were talking about. Clean your room and go to the gym. Yeah. And a therapist. I think that if it were up to meet everyone on the planet would see a therapy.

Do you have the same therapist? Well, you don't want to do it. I don't need therapy. I'm pretty perfect. You're good. I'm pro therapy. I go like a few months now. Like I'm, you know.

You do it in person? I don't think I need it as much. I used to, but after COVID just over Zoom. And do you go with specific things you want to work on? No, it's just like going to the gym. It's just like going to the gym and just hitting every muscle, you know? That's how I actually that's how I make myself go because I'm like this is the gym for my mind. It's so interesting because I've seen a huge shift in talking to you today about this than I have like five years ago, six years ago.

Like you seem like a different person. I'm happier. I'm more relaxed for sure. I'm less. I used to be so reactive. Well, one, I used to like take things personally and I would always had a, I had this fairness bone in me. So I always felt like, okay, maybe someone's trying to take advantage of me. And that would just get me so upset.

and now I just don't care anymore. And I'm just so much happier. I'm probably getting taking advantage of just as much. I just don't care anymore. That's really interesting. Yeah. Whenever he would describe, because I've met you once or twice briefly,

whenever he would describe you to me and you as well, like it would, well, you were a little bit different the way he would describe you. Good. But you, it was always a very serious undertone, kind of stoic, and,

and, yeah, like, this is very different. Everything mattered. Five years ago to me, everything mattered. You know, no, granted. I was really driven. I was building my business, but, and I'm a very, very detailed-oriented person. So everything mattered to me, you know? Are we cool with me using the bathroom? Yeah, of course, of course. And I've just let things become not as important to me.

Yeah. And I realized that the things I thought were important just aren't. And then you said on an interview that if you do anything, you should do it to the best of your ability. You used to, I mean, you said you wanted to be a mechanic. I'm sure you worked on your, what was it, Camaro or something like that, all the time. And you'd take three hours to wash your cars. When do you pick your battles of when to do it perfectly versus when not to do it perfectly? Are you still this way or is this new non-shall-office?

I think almost, I think I, on everything you do, I think you should have pride in it. I mean, now that we're pointing at all of society's ills, I'd say a lack of pride is something that I think people are very prideful. Don't you think so? Not in an honest sense. Not in an honest sense. I think they're prideful in terms of like don't injure their pride. You know, but I don't know if they're prideful in their acts. Like what they like I like everything I do to be.

I feel like that's reflection of me. So if I'm going to, if I'm going to watch someone's car and I'm going to give them that car, that car is going to be perfect. I just want to have pride in what I do no matter how meaningless it is. So honestly, like in everything in my life, I just do it great. You know, I don't have anything. Graham described the difference. in not work ethic, but I would say

just general productivity between you too is that you will grind throughout the entire year. He says you will love to like work hard for like a month or two. And if it goes well, then you can take the rest of the year off. That's a bit extreme. And then, of course, but general philosophy is. Yeah, okay. And then I asked Graham,

I was like, well, who do you think is happier or more fulfilled? And Graham, guess what he said? Me. I said Brett. Oh, really? Yeah. Brett seems more relaxed more carefree. I mean, obviously, I think there's been a substantial shift,

but I would say based on the last 10 years, you seem to be more like work, focused on that. Brett is very like, you know, I don't want to say whimsical, but very carefree. But I get a ton of purpose from work. So for me, that makes me very happy. Yeah.

I probably have... It depends on your personality. Yeah. I need purpose in my life. So I think... You know what it was? Jack asked me, whose lifestyle would you want? Brett's or Jasons?

And I said, Brits. Oh, yeah. that's an easy one. Brett is just, I don't know though, because I love, well, depending on your personality. Right, I think it's a personality.

I would go crazy. Like when we're chilling in Meekino's for like two weeks, I'm just like having the time. He's like, I got to get back, you know what I mean? So it depends on your personality. It really does.

I enjoy my life more and his life would drive me nuts. But, you know, it could be vice versa. Yeah. So. I think it's individualistic. I mean, I get a lot of,

I get a lot of satisfaction from purpose and from drive and from work. and success. I mean, I just really enjoy that. He doesn't need that so much. I don't know exactly why I need that, but it makes me happy. But it's interesting you guys have had such a similar upbringing, but the values when it comes to that and what drives you are different. To some extent, true, I mean, I think there's way more similar to some differences, but there are certainly some differences. I don't know. Everything is a nature versus no sure. I don't really know the answer to that one, but I would imagine, I don't even know, 50-50. I don't know how we ended up

there, but I just, I just appreciate certain things more than he does, and he appreciates certain things more than I do. But I think overall, we have a lot of similarities. Where do you guys think your faults are? Because, like, your own personal faults. Are you insecure about or anything? Are you very secure and confident? Very secure and confident, but I think, I guess everybody has some, well, definitely faults. I would imagine some insecurities. I don't know if I have any insecurities, though. But I definitely have faults. There's got to be something. you're insecure about having stuff in your teeth. It's got to be sad.

But I don't think we have any deep-seated, like, debilitating insecurity. That's funny, though. You've got me on that. And it's always been that way? No. I'd say that as we get older, you know, I'm more mature and more confident.

I mean, I think I was always a pretty confident guy, but I would say that it was not as much of an inner confidence when I was younger as it is today. You know, there's like a more of a bravado confidence when you're younger and more of like a, relaxed confidence now. Like a truer confidence. Yeah.

But, you know, false, yeah. I mean, you know, everywhere has that. What would you say is a fault that you're working on? Or something that you could be improving. I don't like to work on my faults. I just ignore them. I accept them. I just suppress them.

Yeah. I'm aware of them and then I embrace them. I was trying to get out of answering that with a joke. Okay. It's his way of saying. It doesn't have any false, basically, I want to say that. Okay. I also want to talk about dating, dating publicly.

It's selfishness, you think? I think I'm selfish, yeah. Really? Okay, because that seems very different than what you see. I think I love my life so much. I don't like compromising. It manifests as selfishness. Let's put it that way.

I don't think I'm naturally actually selfish, but I think the manner in which I live my life can be loosely defined as partially selfish, because I just do what I want to do when I want to do it. You know what was interesting. We had a podcast with Patrick Bet David who said that great leaders had to be selfish. And it's better to have a selfish leader because someone who's too compassionate is going to take

too much feedback and they're not going to have results. I would agree with that. I don't think my selfishness comes from my leadership abilities. I just think it's because I love my life so much. I don't like to compromise. And it makes me a little bit difficult to deal with sometimes. But, you know, it's one of my wonderful faults. I want to know in dating, okay, because on selling sunset, I'm guessing like the UV

your demographic is like women. 80 plus percent. 80 plus percent woman. There's a lot of boyfriends that get stuck watching. No, we have 80 percent of our Instagram followers are women, but 80. That's probably not true. It's probably not true. It's probably 55 percent.

Because a lot of them watch with their, I have so many husbands and boyfriends coming out to me. Oh, I watch. Maybe 60 percent. I would bet it's got to be 70 30. 70 percent women. It might be. I think he's probably, I would say 64.

We don't have the demo on that. Yeah. I don't think the guys are watching every episode like, you know, their girlfriends or wives might be. They're like stuck watching it Passively watching or seeing it, it's on the air Because every guy that comes up says Oh my God, my girlfriend loves your show

Can I take a photo? Every time. I never like I love your show Yeah, exactly They just don't want to admit it So let me put some chapstick Yeah How when you're going out

You're going out to a bar You're going out to a club, okay You're having a good time You maybe have a table or something like that When you say you're good with women Can you maybe walk me through What exactly you mean by that Like, does the women come up to you?

You go up to the women? Well, first of all, I'd say because of the show now, it's probably easier, you know, but we've always been pretty good with women. Okay. I think good with women means confidence to approach them, and then the personality to, like, really engage them, make them laugh, and then kind of like, and then, I mean, it's a pretty broad, I'm like saying like such an answer.

Pretty broad skill set, but I think it's just part of like. And an indifference of rejection, I think is. I got to say this. say this. I remember this is like pre all the Netflix stuff, but Jason was always just like a savant when it comes to like speaking with women. Like always.

Like every one that would come to the office, you just had this charm about you that they would also. But this is the part where I found it funny. Someone would walk by the front of the office and you would either turn to Eric or eye and was like, hey, was she cute? I couldn't see it and I had my glasses on. And Eric would usually have the better

view. He said, yeah, she's cute. all right, I'll be right back. And you would run out of the office. You remember this? And sometimes she's all the way down the block, but you would just be running after her. And you couldn't even tell. But sometimes you would come back

and they would be either with you or you'd be like, ah, she has a boyfriend or now she's married. Or sometimes you just have the number. And you would just like text her right there. But you would just like run after people. I've never seen that before. I think I did that at least a couple times.

But the success ratio was high. Like it wasn't like a 10th. percent chance. It seemed like very like 64. Well, I think we have a lot of confidence with women, which I think goes a long way. I'm also extremely direct and honest with women. And I think that's oddly abnormal. So I think they appreciate that, you know. And I think humor has a lot to do with it. Like we're really engaging and funny with people, but with women in particular. And women love to laugh and, you know. So we don't take ourselves too seriously.

If you're confident and you're funny and you're honest, like, you're in, you know. And also like we're good boyfriends. Like I've never, I'm not disrespectful to a woman in a relationship ever. You know, don't ever cheat. Don't, you know, I'm just a thoughtful person. Okay. So let's say you're approaching this woman on Sunset Boulevard. You didn't, you couldn't tell if she was attracted or not, but someone said, yeah, she was attractive, okay?

And you're like, okay, it was a little blurry for me. You run out, you chase after her for a lot. I can't come up for the pickup line right now. I'm too hung over to think of it. But we never use lines. No, that's the crazy thing. Never once. Do I ever know what I'm going to say to a girl.

Okay. So it's different. I've heard about this. And I actually kind of like this philosophy that you can have as much game as you want, but it's not as successful as just being that guy. As horrible and cliche as that sounds like, I feel like there's some merit to that. You know what I mean?

Yeah, we're not, it's not about that. I don't, you know, I don't, I literally don't believe in knowing what you're going to say to a girl until you are like within two feet of her. Like I'll go up in a big, I have no idea what I'm going to say right now. You're just beautiful and you walk by and I just wanted to come say hi. What's your name? I mean, just something really honest. It doesn't matter.

There's all you have your foot in the door. That's it. Yeah. Just get your foot in the door and then figure it out. And also lean into your insecurity or lean into the stupidity of it. Like you don't always have to be like a tough guy, you know. You could be a, this is the advice that I would give somebody who's like, oh, yeah, I know, but I'm like a nerd now where it glasses and others. There's no way.

Why doesn't you, why don't you just go up to group and be like, listen, I'm kind of a shy introverted nerd. I can't believe I'm doing this, but you are so beautiful. Come on. I mean, it doesn't matter. Lean into whoever you are. Like, just be you. You know, don't try to be some, like, if you're a nerd, don't try to have some, like, spit some stupid baller line, you know what I mean? It's just me.

So insecure. So insecure. That goes up. There's no business talking to you right now because you're way hotter than me. But I can't help myself. What's your name? You don't think that's going to work? I mean, just be you.

Legit. I've got to go out and be like, are you interested in short ball guys? And what do they say? Well, I mean, it's just, it's disarming. Like, just anything disarming and honest. I mean, anything that's not a pickup line. I mean, I would never. Don't be some, like.

douche that reads a book about pickup lines. Just lean into whatever, you've got to just be yourself. Eventually, they're going to figure out who you are, right? So what's the point of, like, lying from the beginning? Do you ever get nervous if you see someone that's attracted, like going up and talking to that person or no? I was a little bit nervous. Yeah, it's a little bit.

But you're like a psychopath if you're like going to a hot girl and you have like literally no nervousness of life. So you just go up, you get your foot more and just say whatever. I'm just really trying to understand this. And you are not fearful of being rejected at all. No, but not really. No, because I mean, what's the worst case scenario? You're not going to date that girl.

Can you bring up a scenario? You're not going to date her if you don't talk to her. I'd be more frustrated if I didn't talk to her. You know what I mean? That would eat at me. Far more than rejection. I can eat at me for hours if she was super hot. Was there ever a time where you showed up and you're hungover or something

and you were stumbling on your words and it just went horribly? Oh, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. Does any stick it in your brain right now what I'm saying this? Or you'd just throw it out. You don't even think about it. Oh, my memory. It happened to me yesterday. I was at the farmer's market and I was with a couple of my buddies and

there was two really beautiful women and we were watching them walk around. I was like, whatever. And then we were walking home and they were in the car sitting on the sidewalk. And my buddy was like kept walking. I'm going to go talk to these girls. And I like go talk to them and like, you know, it went fine, but it didn't go great. And I waddled back to the thing. It's like, how did I go? I'm like, you know, and I knew I was going to get shit. I'm like, whatever. I don't fucking care. You know, like, who cares? So, it wasn't like a negative interaction. It was just like, I'm not going to end up dating. Do you remember

what you said when you walked out to them and just initiate the conversation? Was it the vibes or was it what you said? They gave me the impression that they were like married or not interested in a guy giving on them. It wasn't like they were offended by me going to talk to him. I think they were actually kind of appreciated the attention, but I just got the vibe of like, this isn't going to happen. But I don't know. It doesn't like bother me in the slightest. And also, I don't, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. saying that some

unattractive like you know just nerdy whatever guy at the bush go to the bar just start relentlessly hitting on every hawker like you know just I mean have some respect for you know for for don't just like

try to get one out of a hundred you know and just like annoy the shit of everybody at the bar and be relentless like if I get a clue that it's not I'll back on. Just stand at the door anyone coming to me I'm not one of those guys like no I'm gonna talk to seven times until she's creep to fuck out

you know like I think guys should be respectful and don't you don't hit on 30 girls a night and you don't creep on them or just stare at them for 20 minutes and not talk to them Or if there's not a vibe then just back off, you know But have the balls if there's a girl in particular, you're interested in have the balls and you definitely don't leave that bar without talking to her That's kind of my general I mean life is is about probability, you know So if you're interested in meeting a woman and you have to increase that probability I mean it's everything that you I think you can map everything out on a bell curve

You know and if you got to just if you want something to happen then you just got to put yourself in a position where that's more likely to happen. If you wanted me to grow, then go to coffee. Don't have coffee at home. Go to a coffee shop. I mean, just that's, it's all statistics. You did the same thing with clients at open houses, by the way. Sometimes people would leave and you wouldn't see them leave, and I remember you running out. The same way that you would see a girl walk by, you'd run out and talk to that client as they're like driving away in their car. You'd like flag them down to them. Yeah, I don't have a ton of shame. I'll just, I'll just do whatever. And like, again, I mean, if you're going to have that lack of shame, like if you're going to, you know, have that confidence, then be authentic.

Like I think if there's, I'm trying to think about when you said why we're good with women, I wouldn't use that term. I would say authenticity is probably confidence and authenticity are two things. And through confidence and authenticity comes honesty and, you know, a lot of other things like women respect. I mean, I think everything emanates from confidence. I think everything kind of almost in life emanates from confidence, like real confidence, not like bravado arrogance. But like if you really believe that you're just like, you know, a good human being. who deserves, you know, to be happy, essentially, you're not going to be negative in talking shit to people. You're not going to lie to a girl to try to sleep with you. You're not, like,

from that foundation comes a lot of other positive attributes. If you really just have to have that foundation. I would love if you can give Jack some dating advice. This always, I actually, you're cool. This is the best it's going to get. What do you, what's your situation? What do you want? What do I want? I mean, okay, so I'm open to anything. That's kind of where I'm at. I don't want to pigeonle myself into a certain thing. Boys, girls. I mean, girls. Yeah, I will pigeonhole myself into that niche.

But yeah, I would obviously eventually I want to find the person. I do want to have a lifelong partner. I think it's a pretty, I would say, objective thing for me, which would be good. What's eventually? Like in a year? I mean, I don't want to rush into it, right? Like, I don't want to support. If you met her now?

If I met her now, I would like more experience, I suppose, before. But who am I to deny, you know, a perfect lifelong mate? So I've told Jack, the person who he is at 25 is going to be totally different at 30. Yeah, but you can also go 25. Okay. But you can grow with them. Yeah, it's true. Which is interesting because everyone when they're thinking about dating advice or finding a significant other,

they're thinking about those actions, like those direct actions of meeting the person. When I think it's interestingly, I think, and maybe paradoxically, I think working on yourself makes you attract. I mean, I think the reason that we are good with women or whatever, I want to put it, is because we're very secure and confident when we're alone. You know, I mean, if you want to go out and, like, meet a great woman, make sure that you're at home alone and you're happy and you're confident and you, you know, feel good about yourself. Because then you project that when you go out. Well, let's assume that women can like, well, I'm saying.

But working on that is probably more important than working on a woman. Let's break down what you just said to be at home alone and happy. you with yourself? What sort of metrics? What elements would you... This works more for women. I think women make very bad decisions often with men. And it's not because they're always...

Why do I choose the wrong guy? They're not choosing the wrong guy. They're just not happy with themselves. And that's the problem. So instead of... They always focusing on why am I choosing the wrong guy? They're not focusing on themselves. And it's the same thing with men, too. I mean, I think you just... If you work on yourself, then you're going to find a good person.

Remember what I said if you're... I forget exactly I phrase it, but if you have a foundation and core of confidence and happiness, then everything. You have a gravity for other good things. If you don't, it's the exact opposite. Everything. You'll go to a bar and you will meet a beautiful.

And that woman will be secure too. Like you'll draw a secure, intelligent, you know, woman. I do want to dive deeper into what you said about existing alone in your house and being happy and confident and secure and all that stuff. So what metrics and what other things do you use to determine whether or not you're happy? Like, like, what could be affecting that experience that you just said? That's a tough one for me. So if somebody's home and they're not happy, they're not stoked, what would you recommend they do?

Oh, there could be a million different things that are making them not happy. I mean, I think you just have to figure it out. Well, we talked about this, just those little things of asserting control of your life. You'd say it's purpose. I say control of your life. And that's like going to the gym, eat well. Cleaning your environment, going to the gym. There's only, there's certain things that everybody, almost everybody has a body.

So assert control over that, assert pride over that. Second, most, the vast majority of people have a place where they, you know, a habitat. Assert control over that. Take pride in that. Just start at the absolute basics. Also, if you have a job, even if you don't like it, be the employee. Whatever you have control over. Be prideful of what you do.

Assert control over that and have pride over that. And then things emanate from that. And also, treating people really well makes you feel good about yourself. So even though you're doing something nice and, you know, it's supposed to be altruistic. It actually makes you feel a lot better. So that's another thing you can control. You can control the way that you treat people. And that gives you confidence.

It makes you feel good. Work, be very prideful in everything you do, including your work. And then take care of your body, take care of your health. If you're doing all those things, you're probably going to be a lot happier. I think a lot of that's not being attached to a certain outcome. Like if you're happy by yourself at home, you're not going to be too dependent on this other person coming in. I think that's what people make bad decisions. Because they are seeking a boy or a girl to make them fulfilled.

And if that is the reason that you're out there, you're going to pick a very poor significant other. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many women that I know that are like, why do I keep making the same mistake with men? I mean, it is definitely not that they're making bad decisions is that they're looking to fulfill something. There's a few reasons for that

too. There's a lot of women that I know that are dating athletes. Well, there's also like shitty men out there too. It's like I want a super sexy, sophisticated, like worldly, wealthy, confident, outgoing, super funny, like huge personality. I'm like,

that guy is banging every girl in LA, you know? I mean, like, I'm not saying that that doesn't sound like a great guy, but for God's sake, maybe, maybe date an accountant, you know, who's, like, really nice and, like, charming and loyal and generous and a kind person. You know, I mean, like, used to common sense. If you really want to, like, a husband, don't freaking date the NBA player, no offense to all NBA players. You know, that's, like, gregarious and, like, knows everybody and walks in the club

and just fucking with the bouncing. It's like, that guy is cool. to be with, but seriously, I mean, use some fucking common sense. You know, that guy's going to cheat on you and be an asshole. I think it goes the other way, too, with guys that go for women who just, you know, they're not going to necessarily make the best wife, but, you know, they'll be attracted to that. Yeah.

It goes for both. I guess I see it a lot more in women because I have this conversation a lot more with women. And if I'm talking about the guy who has like... Well, I don't think women are better at being monogamous, too, generally. Yeah. You can find this very successful, gorgeous. confident woman that is very down to just be monogamous. Generally speaking, this is even more so in LA,

like the very, really outgoing, confident, successful, good-looking guy probably is less inclined to be monogamous. You know, it's just a testosterone. Yeah. Do you think that's just an options thing and maybe in LA? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would argue that most marriage, a lot of marriages across this country are monogamous,

because of default, because they're not presented options. I mean, if you took those marriages and you put them into like the middle of West Hollywood for five years, and you know, you had beautiful people around all of them, they probably would have a less likely chance of being together. But when you never meet beautiful, when you don't see beautiful women all day long,

it's a lot easier to be monogamous at home, I'm sure. Is that one of the reasons why you've decided maybe not to get married at this point? Yeah, I'm sure if I was in Des Moines, Iowa, my chance of being married would be higher. I don't think it would be sky high, but it'd be higher than being in West Hollywood. Yeah. There's no place I could probably be that would lower my chances of marriage more than West Hollywood.

Yeah. There was a divorce lawyer who's making his rounds right now on podcasts. I think James Sexton, who's incredible, but he was saying something that I think it was fewer than 20% of marriages last and are actually happy. 50% ended in divorce and then about 30% stay together for the kids, but they're not happy. I was in at tracks with my interactions. I would have guessed maybe 10 to 15%. And we're analytical. So you know, you look at those statistics.

I'm not, you know, everyone thinks are not a statistic, but by definition you are a statistic. I would imagine marriage would be considered anachronistic as a societal expectation within 80 years. I really do. I think, oh, yeah, remember when everyone's getting married? I think it's going to be like that in a few generations. What do you think the replacement is going to be?

Or is there going to be a replacement? Do you think it's a long-term partnership? Whatever it is. It could be something akin to what you guys have. You just have like your boy or whatever and you guys are homies. And then just like trust in other. Open relationship. Multiple solutions.

Everyone's going to figure out their own solution. But do you think that that would be productive? Do you think that that is a good way to lose? Well, given what Graham just said, do you think that's productive? With the statistics, Graham just said 20% of people happy? I would say. I mean, the baseline is pretty shit. But how can you get that number just strictly off of the relationships and stuff like that?

Sorry? The 20% of people are happy in marriage. Well, you're saying productive. I'm saying like that's the baseline. You think it's good for society that people are not taking a traditional marriage? I guess it's better for society. I think more people that are happy that, I mean, I'm a utilitarian. So I think overall happiness is the moral goal.

And if you have a lot, and I think this is true, a lot of marriages that are unhappy, that cannot be good. I mean, as a vast majority. How is that sustainable? But what about back in the day? I mean, they also weren't happy back in the day. Yeah, but they did. It likes to ingrandize like the olden days, you know.

We're all different cultures. Go back to the 30s. 40s, 50s, you got married and you never got divorced, but 80% of them were unhappy. That's not a good life. Marriage, I think, started for financial reasons. It didn't start from love. Religion and farming. I think you kind of do need some sort of like lifelong partnership to, like, foster a good, productive society with family units and stuff.

I think that's a good thing. What if it's happy? What if 80% of them are unhappy? Then I think it's more of a personal thing than it is probably a familial thing. Maybe people are getting together for the wrong reasons. We've tried marriage for. over 100 of years. I don't think people get together for their wrong reasons.

I think people stay together for the wrong reasons and that's why they're unhappy. I might be able to get by it. I mean, if you have a system that's been failing for generations whether it's like public schools or the institution of marriage, what's the solution?

I just don't know if it has been failing. Maybe I could be living in like a little bubble and I'm not referencing the truth. Let's assume those statistics are true though just for the purpose of argument. Sure. That 80% of people in marriages are not happy. 50% end in divorce.

I think it's hard in that. and 30% of the remaining 50% are unhappy. So 20% of people are pretty sustainably happy. When you get married, you have a one in five chance, I would say statistically. Of being happy and last thing. I'm actually living with that, yeah, that being your one soul or an argumentist mate that you're happy with. For purpose of this argument, let's just assume that's true. So we don't fight the...

Right. What other institution would survive with 20% success rate? It's difficult, though, because I went through and I looked up all of these statistics about, like, you know, what couples are least likely to get divorced. and it does go down to about 25% if you're over the age of 25, college educated, and make a certain amount of money. Well, I think that waiting,

I think waiting to get married is probably the public... Because I think that marriage is a great institution. But I think that it's just, it's rushed into. I think that people should get... My dad got married last week at 75. I saw that, yeah. I think people should be getting married later, you know? Well, maybe I could survive with different, like, I mean, I have no stake in this game.

All things being equal, I kind of hope it survives. but if I had to bet on it, I don't know. But maybe you do, I don't know, maybe there's a solution where you try to encourage people to do it later. But what are you going to do? Say be wealthier and be educated and be older. I mean, you can't force that on it. Make more money. What kind of, how would the kids be raised in this sort of like thing that we're describing that?

I mean, I have. Hold on a real quick. We've already said that 50% of kids are being raised by a single parent. in this in this structure that it is right now and 30 but I don't an additional 30% are being raised by a couple that's not happy on on these kids that are being raised up in single parent households when probably not as good as that is a I'm just giving you this stuff because you're asked because you're the way you phrase that question made it sound like everybody's being raised by married couples 50% of kids are being raised by

single parents according to this if we if we're agreeing with this stat another 30% of kids are being raised by a couple that aren't happy with each other So the question itself, you know, kind of cheats the issues. 80% of kids are already in a bad spot. Well, one, I think people probably have, there'll be less kids, which I think is probably a good thing. It's not like we need population. So I think people are being more careful about the decision to have kids and the decision to get married. I think those are both healthy.

I think that there's not a mandate anymore that you have to have a kid to be like a successful person. That used to be a man, you know, basically a mandate for those hundred years. Fertility rates are plummeting in developed countries. They are. But I think I was they should. The main risk to society is not global warming. It's fertility rates. And it's a guarantee that we're going to die out,

essentially guarantee, unless we change something dramatically, that we're just going to die out as a population. If you look at China and Japan and South Korea and the United States, every single country in the world has fertility rate below two, except for some of the countries in Africa, the entire world. What is two? Two is sustainable. Because there's a man and a woman having a two kids to replace.

Every couple, the average is 1.8 kids. 6.1.7. Yeah, 120 kids. And the wealthier the country, the more developed a country, the lower the fertility rate. It's a direct relationship with that. So if it wasn't for Africa, who will eventually get developed enough

to have less than two fertility rate? If you really want to talk about existential threats to society, that's number one, two, three, four, five, and six is right there. And nobody talks about it. And nobody talks about it. Is it just because they have more options available? They don't need to have more kids.

It's almost mandated that you have a kid or you were weird. Now it's, it's become normalized. to not have a kid. The wealthier and more intelligent you are. I don't exactly know why, but this is a fact. The wealthier,

more intelligent, more developed society you live in, the less kids you have. I mean, that is a fact throughout the world. I don't exactly know why. You know, 50 years ago, you would have a kid already.

You would have a kid. You'd have six. But now you don't. But now you don't have a chance. You can be 40 and not have a kid and it's normalized. But we're pivoting. That is an interesting thing to talk about,

but we're pivoting from marriage. So let me ask you. Well, that's also been normalized too. Open relationships, fluid relationships, you know, whatever type of non-monogamous situations, those are normalized now. And my guess is in 50 to 100 years, it will be probably even the dominant relationship status. Do you think that that's moving in the right direction for society? Or do you feel like it's better to have more of a constrained?

Well, I don't think constraint is a good thing in and of itself. I don't think, you know, defined constraints are good. I think happiness is good. Sure. So if the, I don't know if there's enough studies on these relationships, but if, we look in 50 years and people are happier and in happier relationships, then I think by definition, those structures are better than the current system. It's a good choice and being open-minded. I don't know the solution. I just know that I don't see a

solution right now. Unhappy marriages can not be the answer. And there are too many people in unhappied marriages. I mean, if I might as well try. Need another guy who tells me not to get married. I mean. That's the whole concept of federalism is try to have the states be the laboratories of, I forget the exact term, of experimentation. Try a different things in different states as opposed to forcing one thing on all of the United States. And that's kind of the beauty of our federalist system. So with marriage, we tried tons of different types of relationships, see what works for some people, some works for other people.

There's no way there's going to be one solution for everybody because people are so different. And I don't know the answer. I just, I know that I don't see an answer right now. And you think that you're going to be the 20 percent, as does everybody else who gets married. But you have an 80 percent chance, although I guess you're wealthy and educated and over 25, so maybe you have a 50 percent chance, whatever it is. The institution's already changed, too.

It used to be you couldn't have interracial marriages, you couldn't have gay marriages. So we've already finally normalizing different types of relationships. And that's obviously a positive, you know what I mean? So I think it's just going to continue. Yeah. I mean, what was interesting is that we spoke with someone recently was talking about arranged marriages and how those were actually the happiest overall. They had the most fulfillment.

They were the happiest and they stayed together the longest. Yeah. Maybe it's the exact opposite of us being at West Hampton. Yeah. That also brings something interesting studies as well, because people are happier with their decision when they don't have a choice. Yes.

That's been proven in studies, right? Which is why people are less, like you give somebody 20 options at a restaurant, let's say, or 30 options at a restaurant or whatever it is, they'll generally be less happy with their choice of food than if you give them four options. I think three is somebody. So if you give somebody one option

and you tell them like, this is your wife. and you don't think that you have any other option you probably actually psychologically will be happier with that person because you don't have any other options and you know you don't. If you're looking around you're like, oh, I could have married that person

I couldn't marry that person you're probably going to be less happy. That's why all weddings give you three choices on the end. But I have heard that the study show that three options is... That's why marriages probably don't last as well in LA. That's why Baskin Robbins is not doing that...

But I want to get back to you dating so you think that this is... I mean, maybe it will work for you. I know. will work for me. And I know by definition I am part of a statistic or whatever, but I'm very confident. In the same way that you have confidence in every way, every decision you walk through life with, I have

a lot of confidence in this one. So you're looking for that now or you just know you want? Like I said, I don't, I mean, I'm looking for anything. I like, I've opened this to experience, right? Are you not out there dating? I'm dating. Yeah, I'm dating. Yeah, I'm dating. Okay. Yeah. Don't get defensive. Come down, bro.

Forget it. No, no, it's cool. Settle that. Yeah, no. I'm totally dating. A ton of people, too. Okay, so why would you need advice? Like, what's wrong with? Well, I don't think I do. The thing is, like, I've received a lot of advice over the course of the past couple of years, specifically from Graham, from other people, select people as well.

It's funny. And it's good. It's been very productive for me, and I think that I'm finally at the point, obviously, I'll continue learning. I'll continue getting experience and stuff like that. But I think I'm pretty, I think I've kind of... Good. Then I don't want to have any advice for you. Thank you.

Keep being you, bro. All right. It's got to be something you could ask. Of course, there are things I can work on. The main thing I suppose that I have, but I don't think that there's anything that you could necessarily say, hopefully you can, to solve this, would be the fear of rejection. And then there's also one other thing. When you talk to somebody in a friendly manner, but you have romantic interest in them, for me, it's very hard to break through that barrier of platonic to non-platonic. I don't know how to necessarily navigate that transition.

That is the one thing that's always been very tricky for me. The other thing is the fear of rejection. If I could solve those two, I would be totally. And if you got rid of fear of rejection, you'd be a simple. Those two things are related. Right, but people conquer it, right? So, of course, it's normal. I think you can minimize it.

But again, those two things are related. Other people's actions and reflection of them, not you. Like, if you don't internalize rejection as there's something wrong with you, then I won't bother you as much. You know, there's a million reasons. So that is one of the supporting frameworks that you have that. Yeah. If you take things personally, you know, or internalize other people's actions and you're

going to be sensitive to rejection. That's not an easy thing to get over. But there does have to be a certain thing where you need a reality check of like, okay, well, I've asked out 100 girls in a certain manner and they've all rejecting me. There's no guy that I think gets rejected and like it doesn't stay in a little bit. But it can sometimes be a reflection of you, right? Sometimes. Like we got to be ignorant towards. Yeah, you're right. You know, if there's a pattern.

Generally, a reflection of circumstance. Women are far more open than men are, I think, physically. You know, women I think find personality, you know, safety, security. Like, yeah. So many things is more important. men, I think, are much more superficial. I think men take it as a reflection of their looks and or their lack of money when it's really a reflection of lack of confidence. Or just a bad personality.

Just a bad personality. Yeah, it could be. You know what? But I think that... It's a bad person. I always say, I didn't get that girl because she wants a guy with more money and she wants a six-foot dark hair or whatever.

No, dude, you're either a douche or you're insecure. You know, it's a personality. And then it leads guys to, like, front. You know, and that's the worst thing you could do. It's not be yourself, not be authentic. People see right through that. That's the thing. Eventually they do.

Eventually they will. No, I think that's good. So you would say to somehow eclipse that platonic to non-platonic. Oh, that's a very... It's like a friend you've had... Nuox. No, this is just like you're talking to somebody and I always say gauging interest. Maybe not even platonic to non-platonic, but like gauging interest, you're talking to someone casually in a bar, right?

And then like, you're kind of waiting for it. I'm not the type to be like, okay, like, am I good? him, I know. Like, I'll just kind of stand there and just be like this. And then like, I was yeah, oh, ha, ha, Jack. And she'll, like, brush my arm. And I'm like, that seems like, I'm like, five percent of way. So let me chime in. Because I could say objectively. Jack's, Jack's in it. He can't see it. He can't see it. Dude, that girl was into you. No. No, she wasn't into me. I'm like, dude, I could see it. She wants. No, no, she wasn't. And then plenty of times, too, where he's like, dude, I'm really into this girl. I'm like, she's not into you at all.

And I can see just by the messages. I mean, this is like a friend. It's not going I don't think you have a great gauge on that. I do. I've been right every time. No, you have not been right every time, Graham. You are so wrong. You cannot say you've been right. Remember the dinner one?

You're going to go. That's one specific one. Yeah, because it was the most recent. It was like two weeks ago. Wait, which dinner one? That was like two weeks ago. There's also some nuance to that, but we can work around that. Yeah, there are some nuances to that.

Anyways, he's not right all the time. And he's been wrong actually a lot of times. Generally, people are better when a step of move. Of course, I agree. I do agree with that. But I will say he's surprisingly wrong. what's the risk of just trying to take it Plasputonic every time what's the risk just denial I mean what's the risk of just asking if you don't know

if she's interesting just ask for her number what what if she sees you as a friend it's like how do you determine we'll do it before you start on your friendship let's go to dinner so what okay but I'm thinking like more straightforward like hey are you into me but you got to do it well that that's desperate that's yeah you winced when I said you're you should why you do it way before you're your friend with this person yeah that takes like a month we're doing it on to date. See what'll happen? Jack will ask for a number. She'll say yes. He'll say let's drive dinner. She'll say yes. And then over dinner she'll be like, oh, so I'm thinking of

starting a YouTube channel and this and it's just it's platonic. There's nothing romantic there. That's not what happened. I'm just getting that information from. That has been there's been a few times you told me. Hypothic that could happen. That happens to me sometimes. Or like I'm looking to do real estate. You know, I'm like, okay, maybe this is not yeah. Yeah, that happens. Okay. I'm sure. I'm sure it does. Never to me though. It doesn't happen to me as often as it happens to you. I'm just saying it happens to you. Probably happens to you a lot.

Right. Oh, all the time. Every single day, basically. Yeah. But no, it's actually, it's not too tough out there. At a given time, it kind of was tricky. It's, it can be fun out there. I mean, people complain, but I think it's fun.

I agree. There's a lot of good people out there. By the way, I do not believe in a Mr. Wright and a Mrs. Wright. There are probably 50,000 or 100,000 Mr. Wrights and Mrs. Wrights for every person. You don't meet your soulmate. You have, there's probably a million soulmates for you out there. So it's not that hard. Well, I do think, obviously, that there is one person out there that you are most compatible with.

But there is a threat. By definition, statistics. If you were to marry. If you were to live 50 years with every single person. You know, Thailand or possibly. Yeah, more densely populated areas, right? No, I'm just saying there's one person. Of course.

Well, it's on a scale. If you line it around up out of 8 billion, the chance of that person being in L.A. and ever come into contact with you. You'd be lucky to get someone in the top 400,000. Right. I agree. But I think, and you're probably nobody on the planet is with their soulmate. statistically nobody is with their so many

there's always one problem there's eight billion people that means four billion potential partners that is if they would to marry every single person no there's eight billion potential partners if you date babies through 80 year olds okay so we that's true I mean but there's probably

you know 300 million potential partners sure okay what I'm trying to say is I think you're probably in agreement with this I've always thought that there's a threshold of compatibility if you exceed this threshold with some other person then you are viable lifelong partners with them But you can obviously go higher and higher and higher and higher on this range of compatibility.

But as long as you're over the threshold, you're okay. Now, I don't want to hold out for someone that's just over the threshold. You know what I'm saying? Like, I want to try to find someone that's not only over the threshold, but like as high as I can possibly get. Says everybody who's ever gotten in a relationship. But I agree there's no Mr. and Mrs. Red. And by the way, so the more confident you are when you're at home alone watching Netflix, you know, doing your thing, the more, the less you're going to settle. And so therefore the better spouse you're going to choose.

So if you really need a girlfriend, you're not, and you're insecure and you're not happy with yourself, you're going to just, as soon as you hit the threshold, you're going to lock it down. But if you're super confident in yourself, so you're not trying to fulfill something with a relationship, then you're going to say, you know what, I'm not going to sell down until I get a nine.

Right. And then guess what? You end up getting a nine. It might take longer. So I think those relationships are happier. Then she ends up being bad shit crazy. I don't mean a nine in terms of looks. I mean a nine in terms of like,

it's overall threshold. Overall nine, yeah. Yeah. So if you found somebody, in like the top one percentile. I have many times. I'd say every girlfriend that I've had is in top one percentile. Doesn't mean that I'm going to get married.

But I don't think there's anything wrong. When do you disqualify people in dates? What does it require? I mean, we could have a dating conversation. I'd say intelligence, you know, I could say, well, there's a scale of your super high. It depends on my needs. It's flexible, right?

Do you have a chart? Yeah, it's got a crazy scale. There's a whole other podcast. There are other YouTube videos on this. You don't need me for that. Someone said, I think it was Ty Lopez actually, we had him on the podcast recently. He asked what I was interested in women. And I said, number one, I said intelligent.

He said, yes, well, there are actually plenty of studies that exist that say that, like, you're most compatible with people that are in one standard deviation of your IQ, which I thought was really interesting. So, like, you can't just say you're attracted to intelligent people because if you're intelligent, you're going to be, by this. Yeah, if you are very intelligent, you're going to need an intelligent woman. And if you're at Elon Musk, I mean, you can't just be, you know, you have to group, like, from a very selective group of people who can satisfy us. intellectual, you know, curiosities.

Yeah. But I don't think that you, I mean, that's one category. Yeah, I think there's a range of intelligence that I would be willing to be with long term from like a six to a ten on intelligence scale. Depending on where she is and every other scale. On everything. We're going to the same thing for overall happiness. Like I like a happy person, a confident person, a beautiful person. It's funny.

You know, they're taking themselves too seriously. Yeah, respectful. You can be better. You can be super smart and shit in conversation and vice versa. So there's so many categories. Everyone has to sacrifice. You're not going to be all those things. Sex life.

I mean, there's like if she's a 10 in bed and a 6 on intelligence, I'd rather that than a 10 in intelligence and a 6 in bed. I don't know. But either way. Maybe not. Everything's a still. That's a tough one.

There's a lot of diagrams. That's a new way. I mean, I have to figure it all that. But you know, everything is. It's got to be a flow chart. Yeah.

And there's so many different categories of characteristics that you've got to consider. So, I mean, you know. It depends. what you want in life too. Are you just looking for sex? Are you looking for marriage? Are you looking for kids? So, you know, parenting skills. Yeah, like maternal instincts. Yeah, I mean, that's huge if you're looking for a mom. You know, so I mean, it depends on what you're looking for. That's interesting that you don't place very much importance on that. Yeah, I don't because he needs to be mothers. So I would definitely look into that. Like I would think,

okay, how was this person raised by their parents? Because realistically, it's probably going to be something akin to that, right? Yeah. Or how they are with their dog. Do they have a dog? Do they have a shit childhood? Yeah. But yeah. But yeah. But, yeah. So your list of characteristics is different than ours. Right. Right, of course. And Graham, yours I'm sure, is different from ours as well. Just trying to loop him into the conversation.

I'm just actively listening. I find it so interesting. He loves to like when in any law in the conversation, he just like directs all conversation towards me and dating. What are you finding today in the real estate market? It was interesting. It was two and a half years ago, by the way. You made a prediction that you said that home prices would remain high

and that inventory would be really low because no one would want to sell when interest rates go up. And you filmed that with us when interest rates, I think were about 3% before they started hiking rates. The one thing you did get wrong was that you said that homes above 5 million would not be affected because a lot of those buyers are cash and they don't care. And you said the hardest hit properties would probably be in the 1 to 3 range because that's where they're very interest rate sensitive. It seems like now the 1 to 3 range is holding up, whereas the over 5 is really taking a hit because there's buyers are pulling back. You mean in terms of volume or prices? prices.

I'd say... I'd say... That's right. Everything you just said. Yeah. But I'd say that the lower... I mean, everything is taken probably down about 10 or 15% from the high. But I'd rather be selling a $1.5 million house right now than a $15 million.

I mean, obviously for the commission, I'd rather than $50. Yeah. Yeah, but I think that's always the case. I mean, I don't think there's ever been a time where you rather... Yeah. But I think the high end, ultra high end has gotten hit harder than the low end, which is counterint. The mansion tax, I think, really hurt the high end. That was not predictable.

I'd say outside the mansion tax, we'd be saying a much, healthier and robust transaction volume. Not anywhere near what we were used to, but like nationwide, I think the volume in most cities for luxury has dropped about 25 to 35% and I think in LA we're at about 60%. And I think that has to do with the Mansion Tennis. And what do you think is going to happen over the next two to five years? Just overall. If the Manchin text sticks around in L.A. Then we're never going to see a return to the robust sales. The consequences of the high-end market Or development. Development.

Development is basically shut down. And what about around the country? Not necessarily just L.A., but just in general. For someone watching this, what they want to know, your insights. I think interests are going to come down probably within, you know,

eight to 12 months. I'd say it's a little sooner, maybe 8 to 12. And I think macroeconomically, we're pretty sound. We really are. I think this is really an interest rate-driven issue. That's not true of, like, office space and some retail

because after COVID and cultural shifts are going to remain in effect maybe forever for generations. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that sector. But for residential, I feel like macroeconomic trends are strong. The only issues really is real estate. I mean, part of me, is interest rates. And I think, yeah, I'd say 12 to 18 months.

I mean, look, I don't know a crystal ball, but 12 to 18 months, interest rates will probably come down. And I think that will have... Like a linear, you know, reaction with... I mean, we're not going to go back to 2021, you know, in terms of that. Nor should we. I mean, that was just too... In terms of what interest rates?

In terms of volume and sales. In terms of interest rates, I mean, I hope we don't go back below 3%. That's just not sustainable. It creates too much growth and too much speculation. And I also don't think we're going to see that type of sales volume that we saw in 2021. We're not going to see that type of price increase. I mean, 2021 was an anomaly. I hope that we don't see.

It's not stable. Four to five percent interest rates on a 30-year loan. Under five would be great. Five percent. Sustainable, healthy enough. You know, and I think the market will... I think it was CoreLogic that said 4.5% would be the tipping point that the majority of people who have a rate locked in at 2.5 to 3.5% would consider selling at 4.5%.

Anything above that would cause them to stay. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's any particular... But I'd say about 4.4.5 would be fine. It's all a sliding skill. As interest goes down, you're going to see more volume. And development. You can't develop right now. Because, you know, construction loans are just too expensive. So between, I mean, L.A. specifically is going to have a really hard time with you. Yeah, but I mean, we're talking about nationally.

What's your advice to someone who's thinking about buying a house right now? Is it to wait? No. Well, I would probably, if I were looking to buy, I'd probably wait three to six months and try to pick up a deal. But if you find the right house and you can truly afford it. Yeah. But I would also negotiate. If I was a buyer, I'd be writing a low offer right now.

Try to get next year's pricing today. I mean, I think that if things soften, you want to bake that in. I wouldn't buy right now unless I wouldn't stretch right now If I could really afford something And I had a partner And we needed a place to live And we were whatever

Like depending on your situation You find a great house You negotiate it hard Your finances are reflective Of being able to hold that house For the next 10 years Pretty much no matter what happens There's no reason not to buy

But if you, you know Are stretching and you're like single And you're like I have to get in real estate And I can get this You know, house if I don't If I get a shittier car If I don't eat out for dinners and I can hold this like just chill for a little bit.

Buy and like you know like wait for things that play out. The issue that I see is when you look at the the price to buy versus rent, renting is half the cost right now. Yeah. And so. Renting probably makes more sense than buying. But not in the long term, you know. So I don't know if it makes sense it to rent for one year.

If you really want to buy a house, you might as well to spend it. I think the break-even when I did the math on this was about 10 to 12 years where it becomes break-even between the difference between buying and renting when you account for closing costs, maintenance. Well, that's what it really does. it is right now though with interest rates it. What did you factor for appreciation? Net 1% over the next 10 years because I'm counting for maintenance and random things going

up in price. Like your insurance going up in price, property taxes going out. But what did you account for property appreciation? Before you net it. Two percent. Two percent average annual budget? That's low. Over the next 10 years from today, I don't necessarily think that's low.

Come on. Statistically, that's low. I don't think, I don't think it's going to be low. When you look, when you look at over a hundred years. If you look over 100 years, it's average 45%. It depends on the area. But then you also have to take into account inflation. If you're in like after inflation too.

A small town in Texas maybe, but what do we talk? You're telling me that a million dollar house in 10 years is going to be worth 1.218 million? Possibly. In a major city? What are we talking about? No, just overall. I'm talking about like a national average. That's lower than that's too low.

I don't know if there's been a 10-year span where real estate is. I'm sure there has, but statistically that's low. That's all. I think when you adjust for inflation, I think that number might be realistic. That could be below inflate. That could be high if we're addressing for inflation. But that's not fair because rents will go up over 10 years according to inflation. Yeah, that will track the same.

Potentially. But rents are falling right. Rents are falling right now. Rents generally track prices. Because I think everyone who's locked in that 2.5% mortgage is going to want to sell it. And so if interest rates stay high, everyone's going to turn into a renter. Everyone's going to start renting. Yeah, but that's a two-year problem.

That's not a 10-year problem. I could see that being a three to six year problem. A lot of people still be high in three years. Possibly. They remain at five percent. Yeah. Five. Because the other thing is you're not getting a 30 year fixed anymore.

So a seven year like two years ago a three percent was actually three percent because everyone was getting a third year. Now a three, you know, a seven percent is really a six percent because no one's getting a three years. I think we're getting too nuanced. We are. We can agree. Yeah. There shouldn't be any FOMO right now. if you can't truly afford something in the long term,

hold it for at least 10 years, and it's a great property, and you think you're getting a great price, buy it. Other than that, there should be no rush right now. Can we just all agree on that? Yeah.

All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Jason, for coming on the show. I'm so glad to make this happen. And one thing, obviously, I kind of have like this pseudo-relationship with you guys because I know you by proxy via Graham.

So I feel like I know you guys, and I feel like you have been a distant mentor of mine, you know? Yeah, a lot of the advice you and Jason give me, I pass on to Jack. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, that's nice to hear it. So it's actually helped quite a bit. So I appreciate that even though I've never really met you.

But thanks for all the help through the years. Totally my pleasure jumping on this. I love that what you guys are doing. My brother and I both are fans of the podcast and you guys personally. It's fun to jump on here. You should be doing this more often. Yeah. Because you're so good speaking and like maybe you don't have an interest in it.

I don't have an interest in. The only reason I do it is because of my personal relationships. But you're right. Maybe I should do it more often. Maybe this will encourage me. And they give one shout out. You go one shout out for the episode. Two, like, what do you mean?

Whatever you want to say to the audience? You could tell them watch Selling Sunset. You could tell them to, you know, check out soccer. You know I'm going to do that. Tell them check out. Okay. Season 8, no, season 7, shit, there's been so many. Season 7 of Selling Sunset's coming out on November 3rd.

So it's like, what day is that? Monday. No, wait, sorry. Friday. Friday. It's Friday. Friday. Yeah, Friday. It's just coming out before that? After. Just two days after. Okay, fine. So if you haven't already checked out Southern Sonset, do that.

Also, I am a huge, Graham knows I'm going to do this. I'm a huge U.S. soccer fan. So the World Cup is coming to the United States. We're hosting it for the first time in a generation in 2026. So do a little bit of research, figure out what's going on because it's going to be really exciting. You can look into the U.S. men's national team, the soccer team. That's who's representing the United States and the World Cup. It's a phenomenal sport. We got Lionel Messi, the best player in the world now playing in the United States. So just open up your mind to soccer because it's been a lot of fun for me. So I just want to give that little 30 second shout out.

Lionel Messi is not the best. But with that said, you guys, I think Lionel Messi is. With that said, you guys, thank you so much for watching. Until next time. We're really excited to announce today's sponsor, HubSpot. Look, I could say from experience that running a business could often feel like juggling a whole bunch of things at the same time. and one of the most overlooked aspects that most people don't even consider is digital marketing.

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