The Iced Coffee Hour - “This Keeps 99% Of People Poor!” (From Broke To Millionaire)

Episode Date: April 23, 2023

Register your free Bitrix24 account - https://www.bitrix24.com/~5e0c8 Check out Bitrix24 - https://www.bitrix24.com/~dYd0v Go to our sponsor https://betterhelp.com/icedcoffeehour for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help. NEW: Join us at http://www.icedcoffeehour.club for premium content - Enjoy! Add us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan https://www.instagram.com/alex_nava_p... Official Clips Channel: / @theicedcoffeehou... TIMESTAMPS: 02:24: How George Became A Ramsey 04:23: How George Overcame His Debt 05:19: The 7 Baby Steps Broken Down 14:00: Debt Without A Credit Score 25:42: Are Credit "Rewards" Worth It 32:21: George's Net Worth Over Time 40:59: How To Feel Financially Secure 48:57: Budgeting The Right Expenses 57:17: What It Means To "Deserve" Something 01:08:07: The Importance Of Giving 01:14:12: Final Thoughts And Disagreements For sponsorships or business inquiries reach out to: [e-mail] GET YOUR FREE STOCK WORTH UP TO $1000 WITH OUR SPONSOR PUBLIC - USE CODE GRAHAM: http://www.public.com/graham MY NEW COFFEE IS NOW FOR SALE: http://www.bankrollcoffee.com/ The Equipment used: https://tinyurl.com/y78py5g2 Audio Equipment Used In Podcast: Shure SM7B mics, cloud lifters, rodecaster pro audio interface The YouTube Creator Academy: Learn EXACTLY how to get your first 1000 subscribers on YouTube, rank videos on the front page of searches, grow your following, and turn that into another income source: https://bit.ly/2STxofv $100 OFF WITH CODE 100OFF For Podcast Inquiries, please contact [e-mail] *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I love credit cards. He hates credit cards. I love leveraging debt. He hates leveraging debt. I like subscribing for the YouTube algorithm. All right, Graham, we get it. Anyways, today we're sitting down with this protege, George Camel, and discussing the secrets behind why Dave Ramsey's methods have been so successful at helping people become millionaires.

On average, it takes people 18 to 24 months to get of all consumer debt. Surprisingly, it's pretty simple. So it's just the introduction to the new philosophy. Exactly. Keep watching because this is one of the best debt arguments that we've ever had in the podcast, and you're really going to enjoy it, I promise. But first, we got to thank our sponsor. Optimizing my workflow is seeming like a never-ending task. I honestly feel like I need software now to start optimizing how I'm optimizing my workflow. But of course, Graham. Of course, that was before I started using today's sponsor, Bitrix 24. Bitrix 24 is an all-in-one platform that can replace multiple software tools and streamline your business. With over 12 million users worldwide, Bitrix 24 is currently the most popular CRM and project management tool. And the best part is that it's completely free to use. You could manage your projects, tasks, team communications, and more all in one place with one of their over 35 free tools.

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Again, the link is down below in the description to get started today. And now with that said, let's get back to the podcast. Welcome back to the iced coffee hour. I'm George Campbell. Great intro. Thank you so much, George, for making this happen. I gave it my all. It was incredible.

This is amazing, by the way. We have this full crew right here. Every time we come to the Ramsey headquarters, we are just treated. You guys are VIP. We treat everyone like this, but you guys are extra special. And the iced coffee, too, is lovely here. We really appreciate it. Well, we love having you guys.

Thanks for coming back. We didn't scare you away the first time. No, apparently not. I loved everything you did with Dave was awesome. If anyone hasn't watched all of that, they need to go back. It was some of my favorite Dave Graham content ever. Wow. I'm glad we could bring you on because we had an interesting

discussion the other night at dinner, I thought you would have had one credit card, like something. You were like, I'm going to get this guy. He's surely just like, he's got to tell people not to use them, but he's got to have at least one. Right. Because we were paying for dinner and I thought, okay, you could get like two to five percent cash back here. It was when we were paying for dinner. I was like looking through his wallet. He's like, oh, you got any credit cards in here? And no, surprisingly you did not. So you reflect the mantra of the company, which is really interesting. I live out all the principles and it's not like a, what if Dave checks my wallet? No, there's none of that. We're not doing credit checks here. No one checks your wallet when you apply. It's just

kind of the honor system that if you work here, you actually believe in this stuff. And so I just celebrated today 10 years. We did a fun staff meeting announcement and I got a little box of my little coins for one year, five year, 10 year. And part of that announcement and celebration was like, this guy has faithfully walked out the principals for a decade. Now what does that mean you celebrate 10 years? Like 10 years debt free? That's as a credit card. Really? Really? Yeah. So I've been on. Dave's team. I started as a temp and an intern, worked in marketing, social media, email marketing. I didn't have any kind of on-camera role until 2017. I had no idea because I think I found

you maybe two years ago when I started seeing you appear on The Ramsey Show, but I had no idea you were here for that long. Yeah, I feel like I grew up here. I mean, it's crazy. I know you've been, you know, when you start your career young, it just feels like you kind of mature, like when you get married young. Definitely for you. You grow up with your spouse. And so I feel like this place raised me in a sense. I met my wife here. She still works here. Really? So this place runs through my veins. And so I'm very passionate about it. And I love the principles and I love getting to help people. It's funny. Even the lady at the front desk, she said she just celebrated 18 years at the company. Wow. It seems like when people start working here, they just stay here.

I mean, once you find a good thing, I mean, why go anywhere? Yeah. You know? So that was my story. So what drew you to Ramsey? Did you start off with debt? Like, what was your story behind that? So when I started at Ramsey as a temp and intern, I was $36,000 in student loan debt. I had $4,000 in credit card debt. And I'd heard about Financial Peace University. I'd moved from Boston, Massachusetts to Mobile, Alabama. And of course, Dave has a heavier presence in the South, you know, in the Bible Belt, evangelical churches and all that. And so I had heard about FPU, but I didn't really know much more than like, oh, he's a finance guy.

So what drew me actually was a personality we had at the time. And I wanted to kind of work with him and help him with social media. stuff. I was a marketing guy. I was a musician. And so I just loved helping other people reach folks in a creative way. And that to me was what marketing is. And so that's kind of how I got my start here was really through that personality. And then I was like, oh, I'm going to go through Financial Peace University as a new team member. And it changed everything. Like my whole paradigm changed. And I realized everything I know about money was wrong. Like I was lied to. Like the system is designed to keep you broke. What do you spend the money on? On what? You said you were $4,000

in credit card. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. What was that about? So I was a musician, and so it was a lot of just gear and camera gear. I love video editing. I was going to go to film school. So, you know, you're like, I got to have a DSLR because, like, what if I want to start a YouTube channel? And I need, the amp is a little old. Let's upgrade the amp. And so it was just stupid stuff in gear. And again, I opened a Discover card because it had, like, rotating 5% cashback. And I was like, that's a no brainer, right? And they had the American Express Delta Sky Miles card. So like, well, you know, I want to travel and see my family. I can do. Right. And all of a sudden I'm carrying a balance of $4,000 and I'm broke,

going like, but they told me this is the path. Like, this is what's going to get me the free stuff and the cash back. And so at some point, I was just like, it's not worth it. And so I cut up the cards. Now, when you spent that money, though, I assume you just didn't have the cash to pay it off. So what was your plan with that? Just you're going to put it on a card. Did you expect to make enough money to pay off? I guess so. Are we not thinking that far? It's always the plan that you're going to have the money later to pay it all off. At the time? At the card, just you're going to make it on the card. I the end of the month. Like when the bill comes due, I'm going to have the money. But as I now know, taking calls on the Ramsey show every day, it just doesn't always work out like that. Life hits

you. There's an emergency. And most of the people who are using the credit cards, they don't have a pile of cash in the bank to cover those expenses. And that was me. I was 23 years old, just getting started with an entry-level salary. Like, I didn't have much. But you would spend some time in college, correct? Yes, I graduated. You graduated? What did you study? I studied communication because I wanted to go into marketing and media and film and that was about as close as I could get. And how did you get your initial job at the Ramsey solution? It was actually through some Twitter DMs. I was very persistent, tenacious, much like you guys, a lot of hustle. And I was just like, I want to work there. I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do whatever you want. I'm here to just serve. I want to be there.

And what drew you exactly to it? You said it was a personality, but what was it specifically? I think it was me coming out of, I grew up Arabic Baptist, which is very strange. If you you know anything about the Middle East and religion. You know, people were like, you weren't Muslim. But growing up in this Arabic Baptist bubble of Boston, I came from this evangelical background, and I love the way this personality brought kind of faith and humor and heart altogether. And it's a lot of what we do here, you know, a lot of faith, a lot of humor, a lot of heart. And that's, that's Dave in a nutshell, and so entertaining. So that's what really drew me to this place, is just kind of seeing someone with a really inspiring message present it in a creative way.

So you were a casual viewer turned hardcore fan, turned, I want to work with this guy, so you DM them a bunch on Twitter, and then you made it work. Yeah, and that turned into, well, let me get in touch with another person, and that became, let's get a call with HR, and it was like, let's try to find a way to make this work, because, you know, you can't be an intern if you already graduated from college. So it became, how do we get an intern? Well, let's make him a temp. So they found a temp role for me in social media.

And so that all sort of percolated into a full-time role months later. Interesting. and you were in poor financial standing when you first started working here. Do they take that into consideration at the time? Do you tell them like, hey, I got student loans, like a 4K of credit card debt? There's not like a money confessional during the interview process, but they do ask you to do a budget, which I know you guys are not the biggest budgeters, as I heard from Caleb.

This guy's a big budgeter. I was a big budgeter, not so much anymore. So, yeah, part of the budget is just to go like, hey, we want to make sure that what you need to make it is enough and that our salary that we can on. offer you is going to cover that. Because what you don't want is someone to start working here, and all of a sudden they're like, I can't even make this work. And with people coming in with a whole bunch of debt, it can be tough.

And so I think it's a really cool part of the process to just go like do a budget. And for some people, they may be doing it for the first time. So they look at the income that they're about to pay and say, can you live off this income? Essentially. I mean, it's a very basic math equation. I actually really like that. That is insane. I like that a lot.

And it's not to like pry into your finances and it's all about your income. It's just going, what are your expenses and we want to make sure that this makes sense for you financially? This would be interesting. There's this clip that's gone viral lately. You probably have seen it. The CEO, Jamie Diamond from J.P. Morgan Chase was speaking with an employee who's making, or she was talking about someone making $16.25 an hour. Going in debt, I think she was in the red $4 or $500 a month working this job at J.E. P. Morgan Chase and they wanted her to be making more money. And there was a really interesting

clip. You should react to this. But I think had they done a budget on that, it would have been very apparent right from the very beginning that this is not the right job for her to be able to pay her expenses. Well, you guys know this. I mean, a lot of people are out there. They're hurting from inflation and the housing market and interest rates and like life feels impossible. But when I dig into people's finances, generally it's not the egg prices that are actually keeping us broke. It's the debt payments. And I did a man on the street the other day in downtown Nashville, and this girl's like, I have to live with my parents. I'm like, how much do you make? She's like, I make $80,000. I was like, and you can't move out? She's like, no. I was like, well, what's

happening in your finances? How much debt do you have? What does it add up to a month? She said, I have $2,000 in payments a month on just consumer debt. And so I was like, well, if you didn't have $2,000 in debt, you would have $2,000 more to budget. and use to live your life and afford rent. And so it's very clear to me that debt is a huge problem with this generation especially. We'll get on to the debt debate right at the end. That's a retention hack, everyone. So stay till the end.

Exactly. And you're going to review some of the jack spending hat. Yeah. We can't wait for the... Maybe Grant too, if he's open to it. It's going to be four things on that list. Here's what Graham spent in the last month. Exactly.

But let's get on to your start here at Ramsey. So you started out, what did you say you were doing, marketing? Yes, so it was a social media. marketer, email marketing coordinator. So I was in marketing for my first four years here. And FPU is not mandatory to go through as a new employee here, but it is, it's suggested or it's it's a part of the culture. If you haven't gone through it, it's part of the onboarding process. So there's a few books that we want you to read. Some of them are books. Some of them just books that Dave loves, leadership books. And then part of that is if you haven't gone through

financial peace university, you've got to go through it. Because this is our flagship money course. This is our principles in a nutshell. And so if you haven't gone through that, you've got to know what we're about. And Financial Peace University is just the best way to do that. It's nine lessons over nine weeks, and you can go through it locally. I went through it with a local class at a church here, which was really cool. How did that change your views on money? Well, I grew up, the way a lot of people grew up thinking like, you know, watching my parents who were immigrants, immigrated from the Middle East, and they just conformed to this American money culture, which was, well, you've got to have a good car, and, you know, it's probably going to take a loan to do that. You've got to have a house,

so you've got to get a big mortgage, and, you know, you've got to get the credit score. So you've got to open up the credit cards and get all your lines of credit going. And that is how you make it financially. What's funny is no other country lives like this with the obsession of debt, the obsession of the credit score. And so I fell for those same traps growing up. And so what changed for me going through Financial Peace University was, number one, realizing that debt is like a new concept.

This has not been around. Our grandma didn't play with debt the way we do in today's society. And so realizing debt is not my friend, the system is designed to keep you broke, and even better, there's a way to rise above it all, and you don't have to live with this kind of stress playing this wild game. Before we go into that, we talk a lot about financial success here on the channel, but what's even more important is the mental aspect and health along the way. And today's sponsor BetterHelp is here to help you out with both. BetterHelp isn't a crisis line, nor is it self-help. It's the world's largest therapy service, and it's 100% online. With over 30,000 licensed and experienced therapists in their network, they offer help for a wide range of issues.

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So if you're interested in getting started with BetterHelp, visit the link down below in the description or go to BetterHelp.com slash iced coffee hour to get 10% off your first month of therapy. Thanks again to BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode and back to the podcast. Can we talk about the nine steps really quickly? Because I'm familiar, I think, with a couple of them,

but can you go through them? Yeah, so are you talking about the seven baby steps? You just said there was nine steps. Oh, there's nine courses in financial business. Let's do the seven baby steps. So here's the Ramsey Baby Steps in a nutshell. Baby Step number one, $1,000 starter emergency fund. So this is just a little buffer between you and life.

And we found that four in ten people have $0 in savings. And so this is a huge milestone, just to have $1,000 in the bank for most Americans. Once you have that $1,000, you move on to Baby Step 2. And you do these in focused, with a focus intensity in order. Could I raise a point of contention right there? Because I was on Caleb Hammer's thing Where he has a financial audit, yes And he said that Dave claims,

or he's proud that he hasn't changed his philosophy In like 30-some years or something like that And Caleb said, if I hadn't changed my philosophy in 30-some years, that's not something I would necessarily be proud of And this was directly related to that step A $1,000 emergency fund, which over time, especially with inflation, has became a lot less value. No.

Was it $1,000 30 years ago? Yeah. Really? It's always been a thousand. So what, like how long? Yes, that would be about two to three thousand. Yeah, so how long until that one thousand gets changed to something else? 2048.

No, I'm just kidding. Because I'm wondering, like, here's the funny thing. It's going to be diluted to basically like a lollipop. Yeah, we're thinking about this in terms of math, right? Of like, well, $1,000 30 years ago. It's $3,000 now, but it was never about math. Because truthfully, a thousand bucks even back then, with a true emergency, still wouldn't cover it. And so the idea of Baby Step 1 is not to have

a mathematical number that covers your emergencies. It's to light a fire under you to actually attack the deck. Because if we said, hey, it's $5,000 for Baby Step 1, most people are going to fall off the wagon. Now, you guys are sharp guys. You would knock that out. For most people that we talk to, that's a big struggle. They need a quick win. And the second thing it does is it actually does cover all the ankle biter emergencies. Like when you think about a lot of the emergencies in your life. It's not necessarily the HVAC and the $5,000 car repair. It's the $200 you to pay to the plumber, or in your case, maybe the locksmith, you know. You know, it's those kinds of things. And so a lot of it is mental fear of like, you know, and you guys, you're willing to take a

lot more risk financially than I am. And so the $1,000, the fact that scares you, but you're so willing to take risks in other places, there's just a mental hurdle to get past where you go, I'm going to get $1,000 and I'm going to follow this proven plan because it works. And that's the wild part is it feels like it's not enough. And yet millions of people do it. And they go, oh, I survived. I made it. That's actually really interesting.

And it's not a long-term thing. Because remember, baby step two, when we tell people to get out of debt, on average, it takes people 18 to 24 months to get out of all consumer debt. Huh. And so then you fully fund that emergency fund to three to six months of expenses, which is, you know, widely regarded as the right number. So it's just the introduction to the new philosophy. Exactly.

Okay. This is not meant to be your long-term savings. It's just a buffer the next couple steps. So this one, I'm sure you'll have contention here too. Oh, no. Baby step two, pay off all consumer debt using the debt snowball method. Okay. What's the snowball method?

So the snowball method means we are looking at all the balances and ignoring the interest rate. I know, Graham, just go with me. Go with me. Defy logic. I'm really trying here. Delete the interest rates out of your head. Look at the balances. Pay off, pay all minimum payments on all of those balances except for the smallest one. And with that smallest one, we are attacking it with a vengeance.

Everything you can sell, side jobs, any margin you can create by slashing expenses, we throw onto that smallest debt. And what does that do? Well, it speeds up the process. And so that debt's knocked out. We free up a payment. So now we can apply all the margin we had plus that payment they got freed up towards the next debt. And so you can see the snowball gets more snow as it rolls down the hill. So it sounds like the baby steps aren't attacking like financial instability from the most advantageous angle,

but it's more so doing it from like fixing the psychology of financially broken people. Oh yeah, we say all the time that personal finances 80% behavior. It's only 20% head knowledge. We all know what to do, right? We all know not to go into credit card debt and not to overspend and to live on less than we make. But it's so hard to do. And so when it comes to getting out of debt, we can't go in the same way to get out. And so it's got to take behavior change and sacrifice. And Graham, you said this in one of your past clips where we reacted to that living on less than you made is one of the best financial decisions you've ever made. Dave Ramsey is really a therapist is what I've realized. That is a hard pill for me to swallow because I'm like,

I just feel like you've got to do like the financially smart thing if you're just looking at the numbers. But it actually makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of emotion. I know it's a lot of logic, but there's so much emotion tied up with money that's subconscious that we don't really think about, talk about. But think about every purchase you've made, there was some emotion tied to it. Some of it was necessity, right?

You have to pay the light bill. But some of it is just like, I saw it, I want it, I'm going to get it. That's most of our consumer culture today. I feel like too, for Dave, if you're speaking to a room of 1,000 people, probably 900 of them have a behavior problem. And maybe 100 people would do better with the avalanche method, you know? Which is, let's attack the highest interest rate. But for 900 of those people, they'd be better off to starting with the bottom and working their way up. That's what I brought up to Dave on the first time.

And I'll ask you that question at the end of the episode. another retention hack. But let's go on to the third baby step. Okay, so baby step three, once we have all of our debt paid off, all consumer debt, we have a thousand bucks in the bank saved. Now we go back and fully fund that emergency fund with three to six months of expenses. Okay. Not income, but expenses. So bare bones expenses, what would it take if you guys lost all of your income and you had to survive for three to six months? And so that part, on average, takes our folks about six months to do. Okay, I like that. So all in on this plan from having a pile of debt

to being debt free with money in the bank to cover emergencies, we're talking two and a half years, which for most people sounds like a long time. It does, yeah. Like if you're 24 years old, you're going to, I'm going to be a grown adult by then. It's 27. But two and a half years is going to be here whether you like it or not. So the question is, do you want to remain broke because you thought

you were a financial genius, or do you want to have no payments in the world with a pile of money to cover you? And so it's a freeing thing when you get to that point. Sure. I like that. Yeah. And then what's after that? So then we can start talking about investing. And so here's the problem.

When we talk about Baby Step 2, this is going to grind your gears. We say to pause all investing, including your employer match, when you're getting out of debt. I did not know it was including employer match. Everything. Down to zero. We've got to think most likely that employer match is not going to be that big in the big picture compared to paying off debt right now. I mean, yes, it's going to be better. You're pausing your 3% match for two years.

but when you come back, here's the thing. I found most people are only investing up to the match because it's all they can afford. They're broke. So we go, hey, what if two and a half years from now, instead of investing 3%, you can invest 15%. So we've 5xed our investment contributions at that point. You're going to make up for lost time.

The problem is most people stay doing 17 things at once and 20 years later, they're still doing 17 things at once and haven't made the progress they wanted. Yeah. It's probably better to focus on fewer things. get really good at like, just, I've got to do these three things and that's it. That's the plan. So baby steps one through three, focus intensity, one at a time.

Baby steps four, five, and six. You actually do it at the same time, but they're still in that order. So there's still priority. Four comes before five, but it's a plate that you get spinning and then you move on to the next one. So baby step four is 15% of your household income into retirement accounts. Have you found that 15 is like the magic number? Why not 20? Because I feel like 15, I think.

If you say 15% of your income, I think the average retirement is like 45 years, is how much it takes you to be able to replace your income. Yeah, we found, you know, there's been different numbers. Some people say, like, hey, if you're not doing 20%, at least with inflation, everything going on, like, you're not going to be able to retire. But what we found is the reason 15% is a sweet spot is because it allows you to have some margin to do baby steps five and six, which is college and early mortgage payoff. Because if you do 20%, there's not a lot of room left to help your kid go to. college debt-free if they choose to do so. Not a lot of room left to pay off the mortgage early, which then frees you up later in life. Sure.

Okay. So that's where we go, hey, 15% into, we say match beats Roth beats traditional. So that's the investing strategy in a nutshell. No secrets here. You want to get that match first because that's 100% return on your investment. Then move on to Roth because we love the tax-free growth for most people. You know, if you're younger, Roth is going to be a better option for the long term. And then you can move on to traditional.

Got it. Okay, so that's five and six. And then the final one? So five would be saving for college. And that one's, that varies again because some people don't go to college. Some people might be late for them, but put money away in a 529 plane, for example, because college is getting more expensive. And so if your kid does choose to go to college, and that's the right path for them, it's hard for a kid at 18 to have $100,000 saved. And so to have a parent get ahead of that. And we've done a whole documentary on this called Borrowed Future that's free on YouTube. and I hosted a podcast series with the same name, and we dug into this crisis about, like, how did we get here? The entire student loan industry is a giant scam, and they decided they can just raise prices because people are willing to take out debt to pay for it. And so the whole thing got real muddy real quick, and here we are $1.7 trillion in student loan debt

with $45 million dollars. What was the conclusion on that? Why is college so expensive, and why are the costs going up so much? It started with a lot of good intentions from the government to kind of get in bed with the student loan companies and go, like, we should make this federally backed, And all of a sudden it became like, this is a money pumping machine for Sally May.

And so if they raise the prices, people go, well, okay, we'll just take out more student loan debt. And the government's backing this. Yeah. This is a good idea. And so that became a cycle where the student loan companies are making record profits every year. The students, as you guys know, like the wages didn't go up 500 percent. And so they're leaving, still making 40, 50 grand, but now they have $200,000 of student loan debt. And what did we tell our kids growing up, get good?

grades, get good SAT score so you can go to the college of your dreams, regardless of what it costs. And so all of a sudden, you have 45 million people fall into this trap of student loan debt, which I think we could all argue is not the greatest form of debt as far as ROI. Some people, it's great. If you're going to be a doctor and you're going to go make $300,000, there's some pretty clear math you could do to say, like, there's ROI on this. But going and getting like a liberal studies degree and going like, well, I was told the degrees the path. I mean, you guys know that degrees do not equal success. And as we go further in time, that is more and more true.

And so that's a huge part of saving for college. And then baby step six is paying off the mortgage early. Again, there's no parameters on this. We found that people who follow our plan end up paying off their mortgage in about seven years. And the average millionaire from our study pays it off in about 10 years. It's tough for me, like a 2.875% 30-year fixed. I remember the last time we were- 875? What are you? 2.874? Oh, yeah, yeah, well, it's the same thing. I just round out.

That's a win. That's a win for our boy, Jack. Yeah, it's the point, like, 9-9, basically. It's round it up. So we're arguing over, like, an extra $2 a month. It's something like that. Well, mine's the same. I just, I round it up. Yeah. So here's a question, because I know you bought your first rental property in cash. I did. Why not take out a mortgage to do that? I tried. Oh, and they didn't love you. I got denied because I didn't have a credit card. And that, and believe it or not, You have a credit score. This is an interesting discussion here. Yeah, yeah. So that was one of my biggest regret.

That's what actually really got me into credit cards to begin with. You were like, well, I'm not going to fall for this again. I had no debt. I paid everything with cash and I saved. So at the time, I think I was 20 years old, give or take. I had like 120 grand saved up in cash. I bought everything with cash. I bought my car cash.

I used a debit card on everything. I was so proud. It's like I had no debt and I've never needed to borrow money for anything. It was so proud of that. So when I wanted to go and buy a property, I spoke with several mortgage brokers. All of them were like, if you don't have a credit card, you need a co-signer. I couldn't get a cosigner because my parents did not have a good credit score at the time. Who wants to co-sign for a 20-year-old's mortgage?

And that's scary. Oh, yeah, totally. So I couldn't get any sort of co-signer. My grandma offered, but she was Canadian. And there was a big issue having a Canadian co-sign on my mortgage as an American. So couldn't do that. And so I had to buy the property cash, but I went several routes. I think one lender offered me, it was like an eight or nine percentage.

Like it was so high. It just didn't make sense for me to take so I bought a cash. And after that, I vowed I'm going to get a credit card. I'm going to build up my credit score. I'm going to make a huge change here. And so now that's why I'm like such an advocate. It's like, hey, get a credit card, build your credit score. You could do it for free.

It's really easy. And now I've got like an 805 credit score. Anywhere I want to get money from, I get it. the lowest interest, right? But to have money, like, you have enough money that you never need to borrow money, in a sense. In a sense, but it makes sense in my tax bracket, though, because I could use everything as a deduction. This is like the Kiyosaki, like, well, debt's not taxed.

It's the ultimate wealth act. Pretty much. But if I'm looking to buy a property, whatever debt I have against that property is just to write off against the rental income. So already it knocks off, like 40% of what I would be paying. So, like, I say 40% just taking out. debt on that. And I remember your discussion with Dave on this when you showed him all your properties and you was like, hey, what would you change? And he was like, I mean, I'd pay off all the

mortgages. It's like just a reduced risk. It's not mathematically in the picture here. But, yeah, when it comes to the interest rate, and I actually did a no credit score mortgage back in 2019 successfully. So I just want to say that it can be done. And it wasn't, it wasn't that hard, honestly. I was kind of shocked at how easy it was. You know, you just submit a bunch of documents, your tax return, 12 months of rental history, proof of payments like insurance, cell phone bills. Well, they've gotten better about it, I've seen, but this was back in 2010. A lot of those things, they weren't taking into account, cell phone payments, utility bills, things like this. Yeah. And Churchill Mortgage, which has been an advertiser with Dave for decades now,

they're like the number one in the industry. And so they walk you through the whole process. And I did a 15 year. And we actually ran the numbers on this because a lot of people, I posted a video that went viral on TikTok, and it got so much. much hate. But people are like, well, yeah, if you want a 49% interest rate, you can try that guy's method. And I was like, I got the same rate that someone with excellent credit would have gotten. So we ran the numbers on this with some of the mortgage loan officers there. And it turns out if you do a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage, which is the only mortgage we recommend at Ramsey, and you do at least 10% down, which we always recommend 10% down, then you would have the same

exact interest rate as someone with excellent credit. On a what, on a 15-year with 10% down. You have the same rate. And so that argument was just debunked with actual data from the mortgage quotes. But it's an interesting topic because I was, you know, you're kind of worried. Like when you want to be a homeowner and there's one thing in your way and that's the credit score, it's scary. But having the data in front of you to go, okay, I need 12 months rental history. Most people are going to have that. I've paid my insurance and cell phone bills on time. I have my tax return. I can get a mortgage. And so. It could also be just as a easy to get like a secured credit card, a $300 limit. You know, put a few charges on the card

every month that you would spend anyway. Let's put your gas on the card. Like every time you go to the gas station, put it on the card and paid off in full. If even like immediately afterwards when it posts, pay it off. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat. But I found if you're, if you're going through the whole Ramsey plan from start to finish, when we're like, hey, do a placectomy and cut up the credit card and close the accounts, there is a finality to the breakup that is also very freeing to go like, I don't have to keep up with what's the latest credit. I mean, I love your videos. But like the one, you know, here's the five best credit cards to get in 2023. And here's the rotating cash back. And if restaurants this month are 5%, I'm like, but the whole point is we're

trying to limit our expenses and be intentional and be on a budget. So getting 5% back on eating out, which is something that's going to cost you way more than eating at home, it kind of negates the cost, especially when you go, if you carry a balance, you're now at 24% APR. If you don't pay it off in full. But my. thought is that if you're going to a restaurant anyway, you may as well say 5%. So if you're going to do it anyway. Yeah, which again, like very controversial take from Dave is you shouldn't be eating out if you're trying to aggressively pay off consumer debt. Yeah. Like, and as someone who, you know, we're both pretty frugal guys, like,

it is unwise to go out and spend 30, 40 bucks on, you know, we went out and it was like there's a 20% gratuity automatic. There's a 15% liquor tax on top of the tax if you got a cocktail. Or you just don't drink. Exactly. There's another life. And so all of a sudden you go, there's no way this is cheaper than eating at home. And so the whole idea of eating at home. And I get people are like, well, you're time. You know, I saw the Alex Hormozi clip where he's like, you should never eat at home. You're idiot if you eat at home.

You should always be eating out. Your time is worth so much more. I'm like, for most people, their time isn't worth that much more. Like he's talking to the point one percent. Yeah. Right. Most people watching this, they're making $14 an hour going, Hermosey told me I should never eat at home.

I'm losing money. And so there's a lot of debate in that circle as well. But on the credit card side, I just don't miss it. I mean, I legitimately, you've seen my wallet. It's just the Apple wallet and I have one card in your wallet right now. I just have my one, I have my bank card and my license. That is it. You can see here, I'm not going to show you the card number.

Yeah, sure, yeah. But there's my license and my debit card. And you can see it says debit. That's true. Verify. I feel like a magician being like, is this your card? But that's it. And it's been such a freeing life.

because I used to have, you know, multiple cards. Which one should I use? What's going to be the best for cashback? And the mental energy I was spending and then going, am I utilizing the rewards to their full potential? And we talked about this the other night. About, like, what is the actual dollar value you can assign? And for people who are making crazy money

and they've got the fanciest Amex cards, like you're utilizing all the value because you are super intentional. For most people, they're collecting the airline miles. And I don't know how many miles this is, because it's not actual air miles. If you have 40,000 miles, you're like, that feels like a lot. That'll get you to Boise one way if you're lucky from Nashville. So a lot of people aren't doing the math on what these rewards are actually costing them

and if it's actually worth it. Yeah. I think we added up mine. I was guessing about $2,500 a year. Does that include the annual fees? Is that taken out of that? Because the MX ones have some high annual fees. I believe that's including the annual fees.

And so I was like, could I show Graham how to save? $2,000 in a year just by budgeting and being super intentional with expenses. I think I could. It'd be a fun experiment if anyone out there is willing to try it. Also, you have to think for $2,500, if you spent that time that you were studying, like, all the rotating fees and everything.

I don't study. It's just like, hey, he skipped that part. There's nothing to study on this. It's just like, it's automatic. Most people's reward cards, it's a different scenario versus what you're doing. And so for most people, and also their income, when you look at the income ratio to the rewards, they're getting, it's just not worth it. You know, 2% cash back. Let's say that's the number.

And you make $50,000. Well, after taxes and after what you can actually put on the card, most you can spend on that card is what, 20 grand in a year? Depends on the card, yeah. So let's say 2% on 20 grand. Is it worth it for 400 bucks? I mean, it's for a free credit card. Like the city double cash is that example. It's just 2% cash back on anything you spend money on. So from my perspective, everything is 2% cheaper. But you don't spend money. How does this work? Well, I'm going to spend money on something, right?

Sure. So it's like if I could get 2% cash back on everything, then it adds up. I've just seen, on a free card. Obviously, the people that we're talking to, very different audiences. Sure. You are talking to people who are looking to maximize their wealth. I'm talking to people who are, like, really struggling. Yeah.

Like they're hurting, they're not making a lot of money. They're not making $100,000 plus. I would agree. To get from zero to one, I think that makes the most sense. If you're a multi-millionaire, you're going to be okay anyways if you're a multi-millionaire. But for the people we're talking to, they're teachers, they make 40 grand, and they heard from everyone around them that credit cards are the path, the credit scores the path, and we're just trying to help free them so that they can retire one day. Then it just goes, like, what is in my way that could stop me from doing that? And the risk of 24% APR is not worth the reward of 2%.

So I saw a great reaction. I believe it was you and Ken who did this one. The person who was having a wedding, and they said, here's a life hack. You can put all of your expenses on the credit card, and now we got a free trip, and we got our honeymoon paid for it with credit card points. I'm looking at that, and I'm thinking that's fantastic. That's a great choice, because if you're going to say, if the budget is, let's say, $20,000, you can open up three to four credit cards, get the sign-up bonus on all of them.

That's a free trip. Free airfare, free hotel. You know what's more expensive, the marriage counseling, when you start your marriage off with $60,000? in credit card that at 24% at the R. Let's just assume, okay, 60,000. I don't know if that was the exact amount that they were spending. You could probably do that on 10 to $15,000. Get a totally free honeymoon paid for just by opening up the cards getting the sign-up bonus. Let's say 15 grand. If you're going to spend $15,000 anyway and you're intentional about it, that's a free trip. It's a free honeymoon. So it's saving you money at the end of the day. Well, I got a free wedding, so I can't talk.

But most people, when it comes to weddings, they're way overspending. And so if it's your money, If it's Graham's money from his bank account, from his debit card, you're going to look at that wedding very differently. You're going, let's actually like get quotes from multiple flores and see like what, you know, and like you may be entering this space soon where it's like, we got to start planning for this thing. And I'm not trying to spend 80 grand on a wedding to throw a party for other people. And so it changes how you make decisions when you use your own money. Square knows that in hospitality, efficiency is everything. That's why the system lets you take payments, track sales, handle inventory, manage standards, manage standards. Staff send invoices and keep up with finances all in one place.

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well, I'll pay this off at the end of the month in bulk. I think we're getting very nuanced here. I'm just trying to pull up specific examples and numbers and everything exactly why it's better. And you're providing the psychology behind it all. So I think the fundamental difference here is that Graham thinks that if you are someone that's very diligent with their money, you go through your statements and you're intentional about everything, and you can remove your emotions from your finances, then yes, there's a net positive. And you're saying, probably, right?

Probably. Well, most people think through that person is the problem. We all put ourselves in that bucket of like, well, I'm the type of person. I'll never have a balance on my credit card. And we're $987 billion in credit card debt as a nation. Average credit card debt, six grand a person. And so I'm like, everyone started that journey going,

well, yeah, I'm not going to be that guy. And all of a sudden, you're that guy at 24% interest. And you're calling our show and you're like, I'm $130,000 in credit card debt at 22% interest. Well, I feel like a lot of those are people who spent money they didn't have to begin with. Like, if you know. I have $5,000 in my savings.

But I'm saying, but no, I think a lot of people just put the money in the card expecting like I could make the minimum payment. It's not going to be that bad. Think about it for me, you know, a year from now. I think very few people see I have $5,000 in savings. I'm going to spend $2,000 anyway. I'm going to put it on the card and pay it off immediately. I have a feeling a lot of people say I have $1,000 in cash.

I have a $5,000 thing I'm going to spend money out. Let me just put it on the card and paid off later. I'll say this. I don't think I would be a net worth millionaire today if I still had my credit cards. I think using a debit card changed my mentality and it changed my goals to where it caused me to spend way more intentionally, be on a budget, and win more when it comes to money, and speed up that process. Can you admit if you have technically on paper somebody who can do every single thing right and play the game, they would be better off financially using credit? They can benefit from it. And that's true.

Like, I'm not saying that there's people out there who, you know, people who have become millionaires and they don't have debt and they have emergency funds who they can use credit cards and pay them off every month. And they're going to be fine. And I'm not mad at anyone who uses credit cards. I'll be friends with you all day long. But the data is too clear to me. And not just the data, but the reality of it. Because we take the brunt of people who are struggling that everyone has the mentality that they're not going to be that guy, but then life hits and they become that guy. And so, you know, the credit card, I just looked into Capital One's financial statements for 2022 because another angle on this is who is paying for the rewards. And a lot of people are like, well, the interchange fees, you know, when you go and you spend money, it's, you know, 3% is charged to the business and that gets passed on in rewards. I looked at the numbers. And Capital One's revenue, over 15 billion came from interest, which is people who couldn't pay the balance, interest and fees. only about $6 billion came from the other revenue through interchange fees. And so about two-thirds of the rewards mathematically is paid for by people who are hurting and struggling and paying interest. And so you're not a bad person if you reap the rewards, but for me personally, like,

it just feels icky to me. Like, I don't want to support a system that operates in that way. I think also there's a little level of confirmation bias between you two because just the people you surround yourself by everyone that calls in has basically been demolished by credit and everything. But Graham and I, on the other hand, like the people that we associate with, a lot of the people we discuss, because it's just a part of our circle, you know, like, they've done it extremely well and it's benefited them a ton. So I think there's also just a difference in culture in the people that are around. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you guys are,

you're speaking to this percent of people who are like the Uber finance nerds. We are talking to like every American, all walks of life, you come to us, we're going to help you. And that's the thing is like, our plan works for everyone. It may not be the fastest, as far as like, could you go win the lottery tomorrow and could you get really good at playing stocks? You could, but the chances of you getting burnt on that versus winning in the long term is much higher. And so that's where we just go, I'm not a risk guy and I want to win as stupid as I am, I still want to win financially. And so I love that this plan works for people across the spectrum. Yeah. Could you walk us through your net worth from when you started here to now?

Because you mentioned being a net worth millionaire, but then starting off with debt. Could you walk us through that process and like your net worth by age if that makes sense yeah I'm trying to think I didn't like track it methodically but when I started a Ramsey I had a negative net worth of you know negative 40 grand in the whole between my student loans and my credit cards and I didn't have much to my name you know I had like a little $2,000 401k that I rolled over from when I was at Apple and a few stocks that I ended up selling to get out of debt faster oh really quick you mentioned that you had 13 shares of Apple. I had 13 share. I looked at the splits because I knew you'd you'd ask. Yep. Those 13 shares were worth about seven or eight grand when I sold them. If I had

held on to them to today, they would be worth a little over 50 grand. Yep. So you were asking, does that hurt in hindsight? I was like, I don't look at hindsight of what could have been. Sure. You know, it's like a relationship. Like, what could have been? But honestly, becoming debt-free that much faster, I think it was a wash as far as the result. Okay. To get out of debt faster, get the emergency fund faster, begin investing faster, I feel like it was still worth it. I would do it all over again. Okay. But as far as net worth, I was negative $40,000 in the hole back in 2013 when I started. And 2023, here we are. And I have a net worth of almost $1.1 million. How is that comprised? Is that house, investments, like, what's the breakdown of that? So I am very heavily weighted towards mortgage because me and my wife, who again works here, when we got married, we both started.

it off completely debt free in our marriage. I had already paid off on my debt. We had the emergency fund. We had already both built up savings. And so we were able to put down 45% on our modest townhome in Nashville. Wow. And so that allowed us to have a smaller mortgage of 165, which we then aggressively paid over 26 months. And so 26 months later, we were completely debt-free. As you know, we live in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation here in Williamson County in Tennessee. And so the House of Preachers, we were completely debt-free. As you know, we live in one of As you know in the last few years skyrocketed and so that is a huge part of our net worth So we're weighted about at least two-thirds in house currently and then the other third between my wife and I

It's basically just our 4-1-1 case and you know we have we have our cars which aren't worth that much But aside from that you know you guys were talking at dinner and it was like you really don't have single stocks you really don't have any crypto? I was like I'm so boring I literally We just have a 401k. I have an IRA that was a rollover that has the same diversified mutual funds as my 401k and my wife invests the same exact way through her Roth 401k. And we are as boring as it gets when it comes to that. How confident are you with your own personal finances? Confidence. Like what's your relationship with financial security? Just the feeling of it right now. Oh, I would say on that front, security-wise, I feel better than I've ever felt in my life as far as financial security. And part of that is, you know, just living a debt-free life, it removes that

piece of the brain that's going like, you're not okay, you're not safe. And I know you guys, that part of your brain was removed long ago. Like, you're totally okay. Graham is, what? Well, like, as far as like mortgages in risk, and obviously real estate versus if all of that real estate debt was in crypto, you might be losing sleep in. Oh, yeah. But you're very comfortable with real estate. You're a savant when it comes to real estate. And so you understand what you're invested in. But as far as financial security, you're, you're in. But as far as financial security, I feel great about retirement. And again, I'm not trying to do like the, you know, there's the fire movement.

And I'm not trying to retire at 35. That's not a goal for me, especially as someone who's married, has a family. You know, we just have different goals. And so I'm like, I love what I do. I want to be here for the next 20 years. And so I'm totally okay with my 401K slowly growing in balance over time over the next 20 years versus I need to make a half million dollars in the next five years or else I'm screwed on my plan. And so I have a longer-term horizon, longer-term game plan.

If the folks that are doing fire, they want to retire in the next five years, you've got to be wildly aggressive. And how secure do you feel financially, Graham? Like, what's your relationship with your own? I feel like it sounds stupid. Probably 75% secure. But a lot of it, I think, like, what the worst-case scenario? I think to myself, stocks going down 50%. At the same time, there's, like, some sort of lawsuit.

that happens at the same time as like, you know, I don't know. I think of like if, like, let's say an earthquake hits Los Angeles and it's like the one and insurance payouts aren't like enough. And it all happens at the same time. So your real estate crashes, your investments crash. Yeah. And you still have a cash position. I do.

Which that's a big hedge for you. Right. But I'm like, if everything happens at once, how do I insulate myself from that? Like I have insurances and stuff like that. We get calls like that on the show where people are like, hey, I saw the news and like, should I pull out? all my money out of the stock market. What if it all goes down to zero? I'm like, if you're saying every company goes bankrupt in America, we're not going to be worried about our investment accounts. We're going to be shooting each other for water. You know what I mean? So like that is an

apocalyptic I am legend scenario that I just don't entertain. And I have a lot of faith in the American economy that, you know, capitalism and innovation will always cause us to prosper over the long term. Yeah. And so if you look, you know, you've looked at the stock market dips. In hindsight, it was like, oh, that was a small bump in the road. But when you're in it, it feels like you're being jostled in a roller coaster. I'm just really risk adverse when it comes to like, I like to maintain and conserve wealth didn't necessarily try to maximize or build it.

So I look at like what's the worst possible case scenario that could happen at the same time and how do I prepare myself for that? That makes sense. So like that's kind of how I plan everything. It's like how can I maintain this current lifestyle assuming everything goes to zero and the market crashes and we get an earthquake in L.A.

And my insurance doesn't cover it. At the same time, I get hit with something. Like, that's where I plan for, as stupid as it is, because it makes me sleep at night knowing that, like, no matter what happens, it's okay. You're going to be okay. Yes. The only thing that I see with you saying, what can I do to maintain or preserve this current

lifestyle? Yeah. Is the fact that whatever your current lifestyle is is constantly changing. It's like back when you were in Santa Monica, that was the current lifestyle. You drove the Tesla. That's how you lived. And then you moved to Las Vegas, and then you bought this new Vegas house. And so you're maintaining that mortgage payment as well as the one time.

There's nothing else I want. Well, then you're. Then you bought a 4GT, and then you bought Macquarium, and then you bought this. It's like the lifestyle, the current lifestyle is, it's not. I mean, obviously it will always be current because that's the only thing that exists, but also like it's changing. It's always dynamic. I'd say there's nothing else that I want.

The only thing I would like at some point is have a slightly bigger home for a bigger office and more backyard space. That's it. That's the only thing I could think of. But compared to the average consumer, you are actually like the least flashy as far as, you know, most people with your level of wealth, they are really showy. And most people who even want to aspire to where you want to be, they're going out every weekend.

They're spending at the bars. They're buying the nicest clothes. Whereas you've decided I'm going to actually swim upstream against a lot of that. And so the things you buy, they're very rare and they're super intentional. And you've talked about the Ford GT and the cars and the watch. They make money. That's going to be up 30%, Jack. That's impressive.

Better than the stock market. Should have invested in Graham's car. cars. I should have bought a 4GT. Now that could be your new business model. You can invest in Graham's purchases. I would. That's a good idea. Yeah, I would buy. I would love to do that. If I could get a good deal right now in an SLS AMG, that's the car. What's a good deal on something like that? Uh, 150 and below for a low mileage under 18K SLS AMG, preferably silver. There's a, hey, if you're out there and you've got that, Graham's your guy. You got a deal. The thing I'm noticing is that you have this peace of mind kind of with regards to

finances and this confidence and optimism about you that I really like and I'm like okay that piece of mind seems like it's invaluable like I would love to have that financial deep rooted security that you have now of course Graham is killing it financially yes I'm like oh it'd be kind of nice to yeah I'm probably can we just say I'm probably the poorest rich person that's ever been on your show I mean as far as like most people that are that you guys are talking to they're like insanely successful and so I hope on the poster child for anyone who like works a normal They work for a company and they have a 401K. It's possible for them too

without having to be the biggest creators and entrepreneurs of all time. But you're talking directly tied to the financial success. I'm kind of talking about overall fulfillment and like seemingly like, you know what I mean, confidence with regards to the finance. We talk about financial peace a lot. And obviously we have a deep faith background in that.

And Dave talks about this at the end of every show. He mentions this as a part of a big thing. part of what we do and it's a deep why behind it. And, you know, I just feel more financially peaceful knowing the faith background and reading the Bible and seeing the scripture and how it talks about money. There's over 2,300 scriptures that involve wealth and money, which is shocking to me. What do they say? Well, for example, Proverbs 22-7 says the borrower is slave to the lender, the rich rule over the poor. And so that's one of the reasons that I'm just like, yeah, the borrower is slave to the lender. I don't want to be beholden to anyone financial. Like, I don't

want to be in chains. Doesn't it depend on the terms necessarily? Because let's say the lender is lending at 1%. Then it seems like maybe the rules are reversed a little bit. Let's say you're, do you have any siblings? The half sister. Okay, so she loans you $100,000

at 1%. Does that not change the relationship when she sees you going on vacation? It does. And buying a car and, you know. But that's assuming that, you know, but that changes the relationship that's already there. Because we're going from a sibling relationship to now she She has power over what I spend money on.

But with the bank, you don't have that, like, sibling relationship to begin with. It's always... It's very transactional. Right, exactly. But even then, you said, like, what if it all goes down? And so if it all goes down, your best position is to not owe anyone anything in that regard. Right. But I also think that if you put enough money down and you're safe with the property, you fix it up.

Let's just say... That's talking to real estate. From a real estate standpoint, you could always sell it. You could, if it's worth much at that point. Correct. And so we all, you know, Dave shared his story last time. Obviously it was a different time back then, but lender called all the notes. Bank got sold, and all of a sudden he couldn't swing the $2 million, you know, notes that were owed in time, even selling them off faster. And so he got burned by that, obviously, and since then has looked at what the Bible has to say about money.

And even when it comes to investing, I mean, the Bible's chock full. Proverbs 1311 says, wealth gained hastily will dwindle. but whoever gathers little by little will increase it. And I'm like, the Bible was coming after the crypto bros before it even existed. I mean, you talk about wealth gained hastily will dwindle. Money that comes in really fast will leave just as fast. Money that you slowly build up over time ends up staying with you for a longer period of time. So there's just such wisdom in that.

Regardless of if you believe in the Bible or you have a faith background, it's hard to not see the wisdom in that common sense principle. And so it's one of the reasons why I own zero crypto. I just have no interest in the anxiety of it and gaining it fast and losing it faster. I'm okay with my 401k slowly building at the rate of the market over 20 years. And you think that that wisdom is due to like the long term, just like constantly ingraining those philosophies of like, you know, you work, honest work and you just kind of save up a little by little and you're frugal with your money. That is more valuable than making a bunch of money over. Yeah. Well, and I think.

When you work for the money, which, I mean, not that if you research the right single stocks and, like, that is work, right? But when you, like, toil, like, there's, like, labor involved, you show it up and put in the work. It feels different than, like, luck, I picked the right stock at the right time, right? Like, someone who wins the lottery, for example, there's a recent lottery winners, their life implodes generally. And they end up losing all that money, their family comes after them versus someone who earn that money through a business, for example, over time. customers gave them, you know, certificates of appreciation with president's faces on it saying, thank you for providing the service. That's what YouTube does when you put out great content and people watch that content.

When I just chose the winning lottery ticket, I know internally I didn't deserve that. And so it changes the way you view that money and view that wealth. And oftentimes you're tempted to go spend it all. Yeah. I've rarely seen lottery winners were like, I took all the money and I just invested it in an S&P 500 index fund and I haven't touched it. Instead, it's, this changes everything. The greed sets in. Yeah.

And we've seen that in the crypto world. There's so much greed in that world. And I'm not saying everyone who does crypto is evil or anything like that. But we've seen a lot of scammers and frauds and grifters enter that space. And it can be a get rich, quick kind of mentality where they're going, if I just get in the right meme coin, well, three weeks from now or a year from now, that could turn into this much. And so that is just too much anxiety and too much responsibility for me to handle versus going, I'm just going to earn. my pay every day over time and I plan on working until I can't work anymore because I think we were created to work. We were created to contribute. And that's a, you know, with the anti-work

movement, that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. Now what I didn't say was work for a toxic company for 30 years doing something you hate. That's what they hear in their mind when we say working is good. You know, like I want you to work in such a way that you can do the things you want to do and find that balance. And you guys have done that. You're in the content creator space. you own your schedules and time more than most people do. And so you're doing something you love, hopefully. I mean, Jack seems like he's having time. Right, Jack?

Yeah, I absolutely love it. Yeah, we're here in Nashville, man. Look at us here. I'm doing something I love. It's incredible that I get to just show up and do this and help people every day and spread the word. And so, yeah, I mean, all of these discussions, it can get esoteric and philosophical and all these things,

but I've just found my way didn't work, culture's way didn't work, and so I went in a whole other direction and followed someone else's proven plan that was based on biblical principles, and it worked. And so there's no argument. It's just like that. It's my story, and I think it works for anyone

who wants a piece of that. It is available to them. I agree. I think you should review some of the jack spending. Well, I don't know of like the spending per se. Well, how do you know what you spend if you're not doing a budget? Because, okay, because I was born with the,

I don't like expensive things. I don't like expensive taste. I love, I just naturally find the cheapest things just fun. Are you more of an experienced person? Yes, because that could come down to, like stuff. A hundred thousand percent. You'll go on expensive vacation, but you're unwilling to spend that same amount on some nice clothes, for example. That is exactly the case.

Got it. It's funny. Jack brought this up the other day, and it's true. He's more frugal than I am right now. Wow. Why is that? Well, I mean, if we're talking about, like, actual dollar to dollar ratios, yes, I am more frugal than grand, but that's also because he has like a hundred times more wealth than I do.

Sure. The scales are different. Exactly. But, yeah, I would say like, because, you know, we booked an Airbnb here. Oh, gosh, it took me convincing to get Jack this Airbnb. It was a lot of money, man. Dude, I told, he asked me for Airbnb recommendations that I don't do it. I don't fall for those fees. I'm not, I can't stomach the fees.

But here's the thing like that. How much was it $2,000 or something like that? No, oh, gosh, no. Oh, it's $1, $1,000. You guys should have stayed at my house. I could have saved you a lot of money. Seriously, we could stay at your house. Absolutely.

You tell us this now? When I ask you for Airbnb recommendations. And for me, $625 is a lot of money. Right? And for Graham, $625, you know, it's a... I mean, if your dog... You should have said... You should have told us.

Now, you will have to wipe my dog's butts. I don't care. He'll do that. All right. Fair point. I do that for free. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing.

I wipe Bailey's butt. Hey, next time... Next time you guys are in town, you can stay in our guest room. It's rare, by the way, for people to wipe their dog's butt. I have a French bulldog, and so she has an inverted tail. It's a whole situation. As you guys get more successful, at some point, I'm okay, like, enjoying something. You know, I want a nicer hotel.

I'm not staying in a motel six from on the road. I think it could be, like, a financial thing as well as maybe an age thing. Like, I don't really have back issues right now. So for me, it doesn't really matter if I have, like, the humphiest bed. Or, like, me and grammar out here is the old guy's going on my back car. I didn't even know what I did, and I tweak my back. Here's a good example. I wanted to spend the extra $30 to pick our seats at the front of the plane.

And Jack was like, no, we could save the $30 and sit anywhere. That's true. It just doesn't matter to me. The back of the plane is fine, but, you know. I don't do plane upgrades. Most upgrades I find are a scam. I would not worth the price. 30 bucks.

It really would. Choose a seat versus, now if you're going to have a middle seat? No, like, back of the plane, because we were like three rows from the back, or you could pick the front of the plane. Not first class right now. What airline are you guys choosing? Graham likes early boarding, which I don't even likes. He likes early boarding.

And I think that's weird because I don't want to just sit in the plane for his I would way rather sit in the actual airport than go to the plane early. Because he's standing and waiting for the plane. He gets antsy. You know, he's got to, you can't sit still too long. Exactly. You've got to sit down because he needs to get work done on the plane. I don't know.

Point is, I think, I can't explain it. But it really just doesn't mean anything for me to look at a price tag of a jacket and think, I like this jacket more because I see the price tag is bigger. I'm sure you guys feel similarly. But it just, the brands, any of that stuff, I really couldn't care less. That makes sense. I think that's very self-aware, and I've got a smart spender framework that I cover in Financial Peace University, and it's real simple, and we cover how to be a Y spender, how to be a smart

spender, the S is for self-awareness. Will this add value to my life? You're already saying no, you're cutting it off right there. But here's the thing. This is not going to add a lot of utility to my life. It's not worth the purchase. I appreciate you calling it self-awareness, and I would love to credit it to that, but I genuinely just think some people are born that way. And I think I was born that way. Like this jacket right here, I am 10 out of 10 happy to I'm jealous. I mean the iced coffee I sent it to me.

Wow. Do you want one? We'll send you one. I thought you have custom merch. Actually, this would be a perfect plug for a website down below in the description. We bought iced coffee hour. Dot club. We're working on getting iced coffee hour.com.

Working on. So right now you can go to iced coffee hour. Club in the description. We have merch now available. But because I'm so frugal, and I don't want you guys to ship it to me because that costs money. So next time you see me, send me. It's our gift. But it's true. And that's what, honestly, I can know you said you're not a big budgeter,

but budgeting has freed me to spend with intentionality. And so I don't ever see it as restrictive of like, well, why do I need to track it? Like I'm going to spend less than I make. I'm going to have money left over. It's fine. I'm investing. And you guys, again, you're like the 1%. Yes. I find that when I budget for the vacation and I spend that money on the vacation or the car or the clothing, I feel good about it because I did it with intentionality instead of regret, remorse, or impulse. And so I wonder if that might be the ticket. for you. I know it's counterintuitive. I just, I agree. I think the intention is nice and everything, but I also think, like, if you look at it from a, actually, like, on a sheet of paper, like, the

value of my time, if I'm going to go and, like, budget everything and, like, be very, like, proactive about it and intentional, like you mentioned. I just don't think that it would really change anything for me. Like, if you assigned a reasonable budget for someone, I'm far beneath that. So, for me, spending the extra time on something like that wouldn't really matter, and I would have argued the same for Graham. Yeah, what's your views on budgeting these days? I don't anymore. Because my default is always is don't spend money.

It's always the default. So when I do, it's like... Like your bank transaction list is very light, I imagine. No, it wouldn't be necessarily light, but the goal is just always don't spend unless I have to. I would say the biggest splurge at this point

is probably food. That would be it. That's a luxury that's worth it to you. Yeah, yeah. But it's usually at the end of the day, I'll set goals for myself. I'll say I'll be able to get sushi, like DoorDash sushi, which is $70 for like Macy and us.

Oh, that hurts my heart. $70, both of us, so $35 each delivered for sushi at home if I get my whole video planned and filmed. And I'll make that goal. You dangle it. I dangle it. And then once I do that, you're driven. I'm like, okay, now I deserve that.

So, but I don't, if I don't finish it, I don't deserve it. That's interesting. See, I think, which you're doing it right. And I'm the same way. Like, I don't feel like I should get something until I've kind of earned it. So I've switched, I deserve it, or three words that have caused a lot of people

to become broke, obviously not in this context. But this term, like, well, I deserve it. I work so hard, I'm just going to door dash. Because I worked a long day at work. I'm going to spend $70. But I've switched, I deserve it to, I've earned it. And it feels different in that way. Because deserve comes from a place of entitlement.

But I think earning it is different. So when we were paying off our house, I said, I'm driving an 09 Civic. The bumper's hanging off this thing. Dave's making fun of me. I paid six grand for it from an old team member here. And I said, I'm not upgrading that car until we pay off the mortgage. And it was so freeing to do that because I felt like I had earned it. So we paid off the mortgage. I saved up. I paid cash for the Tesla. And so you made the video. Was it you had a Tesla for how much a month?

$78. So I'm still planning on doing the video how I got a Tesla for $0 a month. That's the goal. That's funny. I like that. And that's the kind of countercultural stuff where it's just like, it's weird in today's world to not have a car payment. It's weird to not use a credit card. And 30 years ago, it was totally weird to use debt for everything we do and do buy now, pay later on a freaking pizza. But now we just live in this culture where it becomes normal. It's marketed to us.

And so we just start going, well, now you're the weird one for not doing that, you know? Yeah. But I think there's such value in switching those words from I deserved it to I've earned it and doing it with cash because then there's no rearview mirror going, I'm going to pay for that thing I did four months ago. It's so freeing to just be done with that transaction in that moment. I actually completely agree. I've virtually removed the word deserve from my vocabulary at this point, and I've switched

it to earn because I think not only like obviously there are certain things in life that are deserved, like people deserve certain like obviously things, but I think just the mentality alone, kind of similar to what you were preaching earlier where like it's more so about shifting the underlying psychology than the actual like the net change you know what's funny is Dave Dave's line anytime someone calls into the shows better than I deserve but you guys know what that's about I explain okay so this is interesting a lot of people don't understand the context behind it because it's not always explained when he says better than I deserve it is a statement of grace like he's actually referring to his faith not like better than I deserve because I'm a multi-millionaire

he's saying like like biblically speaking like i deserved yes better than i deserve he's saying biblically speaking he deserved hell he deserved the worst because of his sin nature and instead he has the grace of jesus right and so that's what he's referring to when he says that and it's an interesting point when it comes to money because normally we don't weave that part into it but like when we talk about doing a budget we put giving first we say 10% giving at the top of your budget if you go to a local church your local church is a great spot for that. But it changed the way I handle money personally because I realize like, oh,

if I'm a steward of what I've been given, right, we'd all say like, I'm so blessed, right? Like, you've said that. Like, I'm just really blessed, man. To me, what that means is I didn't deserve this. I now have this pile of money that, you know, God has given me to manage. I want to be a good manager of it.

And that changes the way I make decisions. I'm like, should I spend frivolously over here or should I invest wisely? And there's the parable of the talents in the Bible where the guy went, hey, I'm going to give you some, I'm going to give you some, and he rewarded the one who turned it into more money, versus the one who just buried it in the dirt in the tin can in the backyard. So there's so many interesting principles, biblically speaking, that have changed the way that I just view money personally, coming from my background. But it's really interesting even to study it from a financial perspective to go, like, if Graham is a steward of what he's been given, right? This amazing net worth, this real estate portfolio, this platform that you've been given. it just changes the way you view it, and I think it makes you less selfish. Because you start thinking about things that are deeper. It's not all about views and clicks.

It's about influence and impact and legacy and generational change. And so when people do a debt-free scream on the show, they say, I've changed my family tree. Like, I had a generational curse from my parents and their parents, and there was abuse and there was trauma, and there was addiction, and there was debt, and I'm the first one of my family who's going to turn that all around. And that brings tears to my eyes every time we get to do those screams because it reminds me of the real reason.

Because we love talking about money. We're all a bunch of nerds talking about money. But when you have that level of depth behind it, of kind of this eternal mindset, it just changes the way I make decisions personally now when I see, like, I'm a steward of this. Versus like, this is George's money, and he deserves it, so he's going to do what he wants with it.

No one tells George what to do. It just makes me more open-handed with money. And that's part of the financial piece that I think you feel when you walk into this place and see all of us. I'm just curious. you mentioned sinning nature. What does that mean?

Well, I mean, we talk about, you know, the fall of man. Like, biblically speaking, Adam and Eve, they sinned. That's called the fall of man. And so, you know, we say that God sent Jesus to Earth to save us from our sins. And it was a personal thing. It was for Jack. It was for Graham. And so that's what we say when we say sinful nature.

And it's partially why I always am like, I'm not going to be the guy who wins. Because I have a sinful nature that's selfish that wants what's best for George. Does everybody have a sinful nature? Everyone. Every human, regardless of your faith background to where you come from, like, we're all sinners, right? That's why we get frustrated seeing the heartbreaking news of all that's broken in the world and we're frustrated by it. And while there's a lot of good things and good news out there, it's hard to ignore all of the bad. And so it changed the way I viewed it when I'm like, we're all sinners, but we have a God with grace who sent his son to come die for us so that we could have eternal salvation. And so I don't

see it as like a, I avoided hell. Like, that's great. And I know, like, I can't take my wealth with me. And so I view it differently. Like, what am I doing this all for? Let's say I have $100 million when I die. What's it all for? Well, Proverbs says, a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. Great. That gives me an awesome goal. The Bible also says, take care of the poor and the widows and the orphans. So a goal for my wife and I is to pay for someone's adoption or pay for them to get an IVF treatment so that they can adopt. And so there's a lot, it just changes your mindset and your goals when it comes to money when you view it through the lens of generosity and legacy and faith. And Baby Step 7, which we didn't cover, which is build wealth

and give. And so that give part is important because you guys have heard Dave say, live like no one else, so later you can live and give like no one else. And he has amazing stories of outrageous generosity and spontaneous generosity. And it's the stuff on TikTok that makes us cry. Right. When we watch these videos of someone giving a stranger or a waitress $1,000, and they're in tears. There's something just beautiful about giving back. It's the reason Mr. Beast is so successful. We're all inspired, by the way, he has taken generosity and created amazing content out of it. And so I think it's just important for anyone watching to have a deeper why. Like, making money is great. Being wise with money is awesome. But without the why behind it, you just get to a point

where you hit a wall and you're like, what is this all for me? There's got to be more than just like the next spread, the next thing, the next stock. And so, So that's partially why it's given me such peace, because I'm not messing with all that stuff. I'm just going, what's right for my family? What can I do for my community? What can I do to leave an impact and leave a legacy? Because on my gravestone, it's not going to be like,

George Campbell, net worth, $24 million. That would be on mine, though. Graham for sure is going to have that. Like, I want it to be about more than that. And so that's just changed the way I handle money. And it's maybe it's freed me from going like, well, I really need to get to this net worth. Instead, it's like, hey,

What's our goal for the next one year when it comes to generosity and spending? Because there's only three things you can do with money. Give it, save it, and spend it. That's it. I mean, on the simplest terms. And so me and my wife, we just set goals in all of those areas. How do we want to give this year? What are the spending goals we have this year?

That might be vacations and upgrading the car or whatever. And they're saving. How do we want to invest for the future? And that has freed me to just not get so in my head about what could be and what's the next thing and what is this person doing. Instead, you just run your own race. and there's such beauty to not caring about what other people think and shutting down the comparison mode to where you go like,

what's that guy doing and how's that creator doing? It has just freed me emotionally because I'm a high anxiety person, naturally. So my goal is just to reduce all of the anxiety I can in my life and part of that is living with no debt. Part of that is giving generously because I find that it's hard to have a lot of anxiety when you are giving. And so those are all components that create this weird puzzle that is Ramsey Solutions.

What would you say are some of the biggest contributors to that philosophy that you've adopted and grew over time? The biggest contributors to that philosophy. Obviously, it takes someone speaking into your life and taking new information. I mean, so many people have been inspired by Graham and what he's done. I was super inspired by Dave Ramsey, of course, as one of the goats in this space of not only just giving us financial information, but also giving us hope and motivation. Like, we underestimate how entertaining Dave is and how motivating he is and how hopeful he is. What's your recommendation for the best bank? As far as online high-ield savings accounts?

I found Ally and Marcus to have the best interface, customer service. I haven't been marketed a lot of debt products from them. And so I have no affiliation with them, but I just found them to be the ones that I'm comfortable recommending to people. It's interesting. Alley's the number one auto lender. Wow. Interesting. They have the most awesome.

auto loans out there. Wild. Yeah. Yeah. But they also have such a great interface and high-yield savings account. Well, I heard this, Jack. You were going to take out, Caleb was telling you to take out a car loan, even though you don't need to, in order to increase your credit score so that you have better access to debt. Yeah. I'm not going to do the auto loan thing just because it's just another headache at this point. Yeah. And my credit score is already fine. It's like $7.60. Oh, you're fine. He's all right. The kid's all right. That's it. But it is a funny, like you have to admit, It's kind of an insane game that has been created. Yeah, like, especially if you already have, like, such a long track record of, like, making credit card payments and, like, I have a mortgage and everything, that it would be weird just like, oh, take out even more to, even when you don't really need to.

But you got to play the game, I feel like. Of course, yeah. But see, I realize, like, the game is kind of like a rat in the maze, and you get to the cheese, which is the 850 credit score, and you realize, I'm a rat in a mace. Like, I'm still not truly free. You're beholden to this system. But like, this is such a 1% example, but if you want to get an exotic car loan, they want you to have... We have five minutes left here today, and this is what you want to talk about. We have five minutes left.

I guarantee people are curious if they want to get a loan to buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini. Let's say you have a $500,000 of your income. It's going to be very difficult to get a loan on that because they want to see you have experience handling other types of exotic car loans. So they want you to get like a Nissan GTR or like a Solution. sub $100,000 car loan to be able to show that you're a puny sub $100,000. Here's what you're saying. You're like, this is stupid is what I'm hearing at the end of the day.

Like, it's insane. If you make $500,000. I'm just saying if at one point you want that car, you have to like get your foot in the door to get a loan like that to work your way up. I think it's stupid, but I also think if that's your goal at some point is to be able to leverage your money and do that, then you have to. That's the thing. Is there just such a, it's a different goal thing.

Like Dave Ramsey's not like, how can I leverage debt? get the next car. He's like, like, if you want to buy that Lamborghini, you've got to get a Nis such. Like, the shortest path is Dave's way, which is, I have cash, I purchase car. End of discussion. And so it's just an easier way to live. It's a more free way to live. Dave has very nice cars and toys and he's got his hobbies that he really enjoys. And I just found like, that's the path that's best for me. And I think it works for everyone. It may not be the path people choose, but it's such a great common denominator to go, like, no matter where you came from, your background, how smart you are, what degree you have, being debt-free and having money

in the bank always works. Investing for the future in things with a great track record that aren't as volatile, like index funds and mutual funds and real estate, you're going to be okay, regardless of if you had an inheritance or if your family, if you got the right degree. And so that's just freeing to me because it goes like, anyone can do it. And if I can do it, anyone for sure can to it because I'm not special. I'm not as smart as you guys. I'm not savants. You are. Yeah, I would completely disagree. I appreciate that. But it's a fun discussion. And I know like we, we're all friends. And so it's fun to have these discussions knowing like, none of us are here to like, I'm going to change Graham's mind and he's going to become debt freedom. It's fine. You're going

to be okay. I'm talking to everyone else out there who thinks they're the next Graham, who's going to get themselves into a really big pickle because they thought debt was going to be their friend. And it turns out it screwed them over. We only have like a minute left, but do you think it would be more responsible for us to be anti-debt? I don't think it's a responsibility issue. I think you're both responsible, upstanding gentleman, and you'll have a great life and a great retirement. Like, I'm truly not worried about you guys. Right, but impact.

Do I think you have a freer life? Do I think you'll have a more peaceful life? Yes. And like Dave mentioned, I've never met people who paid off all their debt, and they're like, man, I really miss having those payments. Like, I could have had, if I had leveraged it, I could have had this. much there is such freedom and just being content and being okay with where you're at and not needing more and so I find that it's not a responsibility issue it's just a freedom final question what's your biggest insecurity oh my gosh biggest

insecurity I mean obviously you're like my looks like that's an obvious thing when you're on camera every day you're constantly like is there is there a hair out of place like you know I'm very pale get a haircut every other week we spoke about right we did every two weeks I get my haircut so I mean obviously like looks are as far as insecurities, you know, I've never been the smartest in the room or the most well-spoken. And so there's always insecurities when you're around amazing communicators like we have here at Ramsey. So I always kind of feel like the dumbest guy in the room. So what I do to overcome that is I just prepare more than them.

I Google more than them. I do more research. I have to work harder at it. But I'm not a super insecure person. I'm definitely an overthinker. But insecurity, I wouldn't say, is my token. Do you have any insecurities? Maybe now I do.

I was like, oh, I don't think I'm very insecure. And then you're like, I'm not the best, you know, or the most well-spoken. But again, like, well, he's better more, better, more well-spoken than I am. To overcome insecurity, I'm insecure about that now. Self-awareness will help you overcome insecurity. Self what? Self-awareness. I'm just having the self-awareness to go, like, I'm not the smartest guy.

So what can I do about it? Yeah. I'm going to go research and get prepared. And so that's freed me in a lot of ways. But honestly, I mean, I had more confidence than I did 10 years ago, you know, and I think growth, maturity, marriage will do that. a fun fact. I mean, marriage brings out all the flaws in a person and helps make you better. And so, for insecurities, you can ask my wife. She'll be way more honest. She'll list them off.

Come on in, Whitney. No, she was not standing outside the door. Thank you. I think we're, are we done? We're good on time. We're good? Cool. Thank you, George. This was absolutely incredible. Shout out to everybody in the crew over here. Thank you all very much. Thank you guys. Thank you guys for coming by. It's truly, like, it is such an honor to be on the ice coffee hour and to be hanging out with you guys. You're doing incredible work, helping so many people, educating people, and helping them avoid some of the awful traps that are out there.

It is an honor to have you on. Really appreciate it. Hey, cheers. Cheers. Cheers. To free ice coffee from Ramsey. There you go. Someone paid for it.

Thanks, guys, for watching.