The Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan - Meg and Ruby get vulnerable about consent

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Consent is the bedrock of sexual interactions but so many of us have had experiences that we have not consented to. This is a vulnerable episode where Ruby and Meg share some of their personal experiences with consent and talk about damaging narratives around consent - something that isn’t spoken about openly enough. Please listen with care. Ruby and Meg spend significant time talking about rape and sexual assault.If you have experienced rape or sexual assault, the NHS has guidance around how to find help and support. (https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault/)    Email the podcast: [e-mail] Ruby on socials: @rubyrare Follow Megan on socials @meganbartonhanson_  The Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan is a Mags Creative and Dear Media productionProducer and Content Editor for Mags Creative: Christy Callaway-GaleEditor and Engineer: Beautiful Strangers, Podcast HouseExecutive Producers for Mags Creative: Faith Russell and Kit MilsomThis podcast contains adult themes that are not suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm Lauren and I'm Ashley and this guys is Nip Tuck Pod. We are your girl chat. We say the things you want to hear, the things that you're thinking but you don't want to say out loud and we're all about being strong aspirational women who basically don't give a... Lauren anyway if you want unfiltered chat, amazing beauty and product recommendations then look no further guys. This is the podcast where you will get all of the girly chat. The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hey loves, it is Ruby and Meg from the future. We've just recorded this episode and we talk

about lots of bits of consent, but we do spend quite a lot of time talking about rape and sexual assault. It gets pretty heavy, so please look after yourselves while you are listening. There's links to different organisations in the show notes as well. You are listening to The Inns and Outs with me, Ruby Ware. And me, Megan Barton-Hanson. We're talking about consent today and I always feel really like conflicted and kind of worried about broaching this topic, I guess. It's a sticky subject, I guess.

It's like kind of intense to discuss, but I feel like the more we speak about it, the more it's going to be like normalized, which it should be. Yeah. With this topic, probably more than any other, I feel like a real level of responsibility whenever I talk about this. But also I feel very split in two because there's the professional side of me that's like, these are the beats of things that I want to say and I've gone into schools and taught about this loads.

And then there's the personal side of me that like has had really varied experiences like with consent and understanding it and myself and how like wrong things can go and I think it is Yeah, we were just talking before of like this is important and we are like ready to do it. It's so important. I feel like Just because that's your job and you're great at doing what you do being an educator going to schools and teaching people You're still human. So before you got into this like realm of your career, you would have human experiences. So you shouldn't feel like one way or the other. Like, you've got both sides. And that's more to like give you knowledge to then go out and teach like why is so important and what should be spoken about because I can't remember growing up at school. No one ever even said the word consent, ever. I've thought about this a lot with my work. I

don't think I heard the word consent in a sexual context until I was 19. No one had said that, no one had like mentioned that you should want to do what you're doing. It was just this expectation of like, well, you're having sex, it's mostly for the man that you're want to do what you're doing. It was just this expectation of like, well, you're having sex. It's mostly for the man that you're having sex with because it was so like heteronormative. And that makes me feel incredibly sad and incredibly angry that that was like the introduction

I had to what sex was like. But did you have that as well with like going up? I feel like I've only heard the word consent around sex, I won't lie, in the last like two, three years. For real? Honestly, like obviously I knew. Wow Megan, that's a lot.

I knew but like people didn't speak about it like they do now. Yeah. But obviously I knew like if I wasn't comfortable with something I would shut it down and not do it but it wasn't like a, like just an open conversation of like you need to think of consent when you're getting involved with things because there would be things that back in the day people used to say things like oh you're a prick tease, oh you're just like teasing guys. It's like because I wear a short skirt and because I act a bit slutty and because I'm comfortable with my sexuality, that then is like fine and permission for you to treat me in whichever way you want. And even if I came back with you and laid down with you, had a cuddle and a kiss, if I'm like, that's enough for me, I want to leave. The narrative

was when I was growing up, especially in my, I lived in a really small, secluded town, and that would just, it was very old school and that was the narrative. It's like, well, what do you expect if you dress up? And obviously I was a stripper at 19, so people just assumed, oh, well, if she's going back with you, of course she's going to fuck you. And I would get myself in very hot water and very sticky situations because I was just lonely and wanted to have that human connection with someone, have a cuddle, have a kiss, and as soon as it got any further I'd try and take myself out and then I, why would you leave me on?

I've had experiences around that where I'm very lucky that I've had loads of really lovely special amazing sexual experiences and they like make me feel very human and connected to myself and alive. But the dark side of that is I've also had some really shit sexual experiences and have like experienced like sexual harassment from like such a young age as like have most people especially people who are like women and have grown up as women. But also like sexual assault and experience like I was, I think it was about eight years ago, I was raped. But it took me a really long time to feel to like recognize how ridiculous it was that I was feeling guilty about it. Because it was casual sex. Because everything around it was like, oh yeah, but you knew what you were getting yourself into and like, and yeah, like you probably shouldn't

have been drinking so much or like all of these. And like some people did say versions of that to me. I had a therapist at the time who were like, was really off, like kind of ended up like putting blame on the situation for me of being like well if you're sexually liberated and you like go and have casual sex she didn't say it like this but the assumption was like what do you expect that like yes sometimes that goes wrong stop that makes my blood I've actually got goose bumps it was really because at any stage and this is what I think is so important at any stage you could be having sex I think is so important at any stage, you could be

having sex five times with someone and on round six you're like, do you know what? I'm tapping out now, I'm done. Goodbye. And that doesn't need to be questioned or challenged as well. The idea of rape feels like a particular thing in our minds. It feels overtly violent and like a scene that we watch on telly. And so actually trying to explain to people and trying to like validate in yourself all of the like really subtle but very intense ways that you feel threats and unsafety and the ways that you signal and say no, and that gets pushed over or like disregarded.

I have other experiences to call on with this as well, sadly, but I'm thinking of this one in particular that like, I think if there was a fly on the wall watching that, my discomfort and my unwillingness to have sex would have been very apparent. But it also wouldn't have looked like the kind of idea that we have of rape. It was someone who wanted to do something, had made a decision that that was happening with me, and I didn't have a say in that happening. And I did say no, and it wasn't listened to. And so then, and like that just, I guess how fucked up it is when you've experienced having sex and your reluctance or your no has not been listened to. What that does for you in like believing that consent is essential and something that you were absolutely entitled to in your future sexual experiences, like it completely fucks you

up and as much as I can be like sex positive and slutty, like that is still like such a massive part of my sexual history and impacts the way that I relate to myself and even now like I've done a lot of work with it and it's been weirdly like when it was the five-year mark I've done a lot of work with it. And it's been weirdly like, when it was the five year mark, I had like a complete breakdown about it again, I like thought I'd been over it and like was okay. And then when it came to that time of the year, and I realized it had been five years, I like it took me like months, I like couldn't have experienced like any sexual touch. And I was very like, very easily triggered and having panic

attack-y things and weird flashbacks and all of this kind of shit. And that now was a few years ago and it doesn't impact me day to day in the way that it used to then, but it's like, I don't know. But babe, you're saying that you, thank you so much for sharing, honestly, and being so vulnerable, but I feel like even in the way you're saying that you, thank you so much for sharing honestly and being so vulnerable. But I feel like even in the way you're saying that like, oh, I had like kind of flashbacks like five years after you're saying it, like, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be having that. Yeah. The guy who put you in this position and coerced you or forced you to do these things, he's living his life happy as Larry and you're having this guilt and

trauma from stuff he's made you endure and you're still feeling shame and guilt around that five years later. It's him. He's the absolute animal of a human. And like what the fuck? And also you know what when it was only like maybe three years after it happened that I properly like started to realize it was literally around like me too that I heard on the radio someone describing an experience that they had and that being classified as rape and like before they said that word I was listening to it being like oh that happened to me to kind of pretty much step by step what you're describing is what has happened to me and then hearing someone say like oh oh, that's rape, completely flawed me. And then I had, and then I was like fucking brushing my teeth or having breakfast and had to go to work.

And like being on the bus being like, oh, fuck, that's what that was. And then feeling weird because I worked in sexual health and being like, well, I can recognize that in other people. And I know all the correct stuff to say, but I don't recognize that in my own experiences because I'm so hardwired to like, not believe myself and downplay experiences and be like, oh, it wasn't like that bad. You honestly need to give yourself grace. Like even just hearing that on the radio and your heart must have burnt when you heard that and you're like, correlate like, that's me, that's me. And then they say, oh, that was right. You, you, your heart must have sank.

And then you've just got a whole day ahead of you, which is all centered around sex positivity and liberation and stuff. But again, why does society put women in a box? You can be liberated and sexual and still have your voice. All of this shit. Yeah. Yeah. To say no.

It was only then when I started speaking to like a mate of mine. We used to work together and she was like, oh, would you ever go to the police? And like, I don't fucking like the police in my politics. But like, now I can look back at like a younger version of myself and feel so heartbroken that I didn't, I recognized at the time that something had gone wrong, but I was in shock and I couldn't name it

or recognize it. But at no point did I think this is something I could go to authorities about because I did not feel believed and I did not feel like it was bad enough in massive fucking air quotes to qualify like something criminal having happened. Stop. And if that's happened to me, like the number of every time I talk about this, if that's like online or with like my best friends, my friends who are women and who are like queer people and also like men experience sexual violence as well. I don't want this to just be like a men are perpetrators, women are like survivors.

But like it's overwhelmingly a lot of the women and queer people in my life, you say shit like this and they're just like, oh yeah, no, I've had a version of that as well. Like how normal this is and how fucked up that is when we're like not taught that consent is something we're entitled to. It's really, really sad and shocking. But on the flip side, like I've gone through,

like, they're not comparable, but like different things. And it shocks me the amount of straight men that been like, Meg, you know, that's so wrong. Not every man's like that. Not every man would treat you like that. And I'm like, what really? I just thought every straight man was of the same mentality. Like, oh, if you dress slightly, or if we're like sexually liberated in one way, we're just expected to then be this like porn star in the bedroom. And like, it's so wrong. They're like, no, you're just like, yeah, fucking with the wrong people because real men wouldn't treat you like that. And I was like, Oh my God. And I just think everything you've said, you're, you're putting the blame, it feels like you're putting the blame on you and really it's that asshole that's got away with this and you're paying the penance for his ignorant, disgusting behaviour. It's just wrong.

It's so like, yeah, I think there's, I've definitely had like so much, not even anger, like actual rage at how, at like feeling so fucking resentful of why I have to deal with this. Like the emotion of this, how like eight years on, it's still something that I have to like chat to partners about of being like like this doesn't happen as often anymore. But like, if I can react to certain things, like really strongly, because they remind me of like this experience. And also like, in terms of work, this is obviously you can't like be a fucking sex educator without talking about consent. And I want to and I feel it so strongly, but I also have to be quite protective of myself because talking about this can be really hard and like knowing the line and also knowing that like, whenever you talk about consent, there are going to be people in the room who have had

really awful experiences and like how you hold all of that. It's a lot. I remember like years later, you hold all of that, it's a lot. I remember like years later, I was running a day long training for loads of professionals when I used to work at the sexual health charity I worked at. And it was about like loads of different things, but the big section of it was around consent. And so part of the training was like reading out

different scenarios and thinking about like agency. And if someone has the capacity to consent and the freedom to consent and all of that kind of stuff. And getting into this moment with a guy where we were reading out a scenario that was very similar to what I had experienced. That was so hard. And him, and it wasn't only him,

there were other people in the room who shared his feelings about it. He was very much just like, oh, but this person went home, like that's agreeing to this, and really kept pushing back, being like, this isn't a problem. This is like, you've agreed, you've signed up to this, da da da kind of thing. And in professional Ruby, it's like, let's hold all the different feelings in this room, because actually there are ways I can explain this to you and all this stuff. But I, like fully like I could feel myself like, shaking and getting really like, panicky of like having my experience

like mirrored back to me and someone tell me that that wasn't serious enough to be considered sexual assault. That's so tough. And then we broke for lunch and I went to the bathroom and thank fuck I was doing the training with someone else and burst into tears. And then had to go home and my friend ran the rest of the training. It feels so weird when all of this is very, we're dealing with like such human raw experiences and people who don't have an awareness of what that might be like and maybe don't have personal experience of it can talk about it in such a like, rushed over, blasé kind of way. That must have been so heavy. When you're there and you've got to keep your professional

head on and some ignorant guy saying, yeah, but like, no, she said she was going to come home with me so it's just fine. Yeah. Who gives a fuck Brian? Like if she's come back with you and then she changes her mind, that's fine. The entitlement of these people makes me ill. I think our unwillingness to talk about this is like a very complicated issue, gets us to those places where people don't understand this very well. And yet it happens all the time.

So we're almost like immune to this because we just hear it so often that we don't realize the, like all of the deep, deep layers of pain and shame and vulnerability that go into this when you have had experiences where your boundaries have been crossed, where you know what it is like in your body to not be comfortable to do something and either not have the language or the confidence to say that. or the confidence to say that and so enduring tolerating sex rather than having sex that you actually want to have or outright trying to stop something and it not stopping. Just like the prevalence of that is horrendous. It's a really hard topic to talk about but I'm so glad that you've been so open already and like. but I'm so glad that you've been so open already. And like- Thanks.

It's weird, like I can talk about it, but I can also feel like a wall where even like for years when I was speaking about this in therapy and I think even now, like I can talk about it and I can articulate my feelings quite well, but I actually can't feel those feelings very well. It feels a bit in my brain that there's a brick wall. Those feelings

are still really difficult to access. And I feel quite scared of what it's like to feel them, because then I'm worried about like, being able to manage them. So like, so it's so gonna make me cry. I know. But also that there's that thing where I'm like, this is horrible. I kind of want to cry about it right now. But also I can feel myself there's there's like barriers and layers of protection I've put in place to not quite go there subconsciously because you have to you have to just like switch off and like go and talk about it like you said I hope you realize how strong you are and what an angel you are I don't I do and I don't feel strong about this like it's you are

incredibly strong and I think what you're doing and the education, the knowledge that you're giving, not only to young girls, but just young people in general, it's gonna be so, it's gonna change lives. They don't have to go through the shit that we went through in our generation when it was that phase of, oh, you're being a coxies? Oh yeah, well, what do you think wearing a skirt

like that having your tits out? You're asking for it, like fuck off, that's so 80s and that, like it makes my blood boil and I think the fact you're being such a strong angel for all of us, the kids that are gonna grow up, we're never gonna have seedy men like that, they're gonna be nice, perfect angels like you. That's the utopia, that's Megan's utopia. That's what I'm hoping. Nice men. Just nice straight men.

Yeah, I mean it does happen outside of that as well. I've definitely found it really hard speaking to mates who've experienced non-consensual stuff when it's been like queer sex or two women or when it's been actually a perpetrator who is a woman, like we're not really tuned in to recognizing that in the same way. And like there's, I think survivors, is that the name of it? There's like a really great charity, which is is for male survivors of sexual assault. And again, how the added shame of that, if you're taught that that is incredibly emasculating, it's even harder, I think, for lots of men to speak out about these experiences than it might be for some women. Yeah, I can imagine, because the society, the way they're like, oh yeah, you've just got like, even with mental health, you've got to be a strong man. So can you imagine if they're saying

coming forward to say, I was sexually assaulted or abused, that must be so hard. And I feel like particularly like trans people as well. I think it's like so hard for them. Because that people just sexualize them, I feel. Queer people in general are hypersexualized and then trans people, particularly trans women are sexualized to such an incredible degree. And it is incredibly fucked up and sad how surviving sexual violence becomes very normalized when so many people experience it for loads of groups. But I'd say, yeah, for trans women massively. And all, and like just in terms of all forms of violence, when you look at statistics, like trans people experience that stuff just at like a disproportionate high level compared to any other demographic.

Um, yeah. Oh, how does all of this land with you? Like, and your experiences? It's actually so sad because there's like, I know I'm such an overshare, but I think this is one thing I don't want to cry about, this is like one thing that I want to like, keep to myself, but yeah is like one thing that I wanna like keep to myself. But yeah, it's just been like far, like far too frequent a thing.

So I'm just thinking, oh. But it's not like anyone's fault. It's just society, like it's just mental. That used to be allowed, like even people that I know love me like unconditionally and I'll tell them about experiences and they'll be like, what do you expect when you're like, you're being a stripper, like men aren't really going to hold you in like some sort of like value. Of course you're not going to be treated like a proper woman. Like, so then I don't

know, I just held so much like shame, but I don't know, I think this is why it's important to talk about it. It's just a heavy episode. We knew it would be as well. I'm now sad that I'm not crying with you because I want to be able to cry and I just feel emotionally blocked of being like, oh, my body's just not going to let me do that right now. So you're crying for both of us and it is really helpful to see like your emotion. I'll have a massive cry in about like five hours. You're so much stronger than me.

There's no way you can hold it in. But I think you're strong by being able to let it out right now. And like, sorry, I want to, I want to properly go back to what you're saying. It's important to talk about this, but that does not mean having to disclose any information that either of us are not comfortable with. Like it's not, this shouldn't be having to educate through stories, like, and seeing the like layers of pain that happen, have happened to us and happened to so many people is really important. And I'm so sorry that you also have had to experience that in like throughout your life.

I'm really proud of you for then recognizing and being like, I don't need to air this out. I don't need like people to see this and potentially like put myself up against more judgment. When it happened to me, I was in another country. I was with a friend, but I didn't know where I was. And I could say like I couldn't leave because I didn't know, like my phone, my phone wasn't working. Like I wouldn't, I was like, I actually don't know how. So I had to like appease and fawn. It's one of the like four like ways of responding to like danger or stressful situations. So like fight or flight, which we hear about a lot of like, get out of there or double

down like fight it out. But also two of the other responses are like freeze. So just kind of like numb out and like maybe stay in a situation, but just kind of like, yeah, emotionally shut down and fawn, which is then more appeasing to whatever that sign of danger is and trying to get through a dangerous or an uncertain situation by being more on sides. And I think those two royally fuck us because we don't recognize them as trauma responses. And the amount of times that I've frozen in a situation and then blamed myself for freezing and not doing anything about it, like in the

moment or then having to be in situations where you do kind of have to fawn over like with this guy of being like, oh, they don't like I get out of this by you, you eventually getting me an Uber. Like that's, I can't see a way out of this until that happens because otherwise I'm literally in like a city I don't know, I don't know what the fuck to do. And I think that's again where like the guilt of this comes in because we don't recognize them as ways of navigating moments where we're not feeling safe. But that's just like human instinct. Like what else would you have done?

Like if you really deep it, you can't blame yourself or feel guilty for that. Like what was your left the apartment had no signal on your phone, no clue where you are. That's your only means to survive. Yeah. only means to survive. Yeah. Did our favorite rom-coms we adored growing up totally warp our ideas around love, relationships,

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even though we'll see how successful that is. I don't know, maybe like this is allowed to just be a really sad episode. And not to like gloss over a lot of the really, really heavy stuff that we're talking about, but how we've both experienced shit like this, and yet we are people who have fun, exciting, pleasurable sex lives, where we have a much greater understanding of consent, our own and other people's. How do you think you got to that?

And not in a like, Oh my God, I've completely like overcome those things that happened to me. Like we can, we can tell they're still very present in our lives. Yeah. But how do you, how are you, you now? Everyone has trauma and I just think you've got to take each person as you find them. Not everyone is an asshole. There is people that have got enough self-esteem, enough values about them and morals that they would never treat another human like that. And the experience I've had with

other consenting adults when we're on the same page and then feelings of like Euphoria and love and like when I've gone to sex parties and everyone's there with the right intentions. Everyone's respectful of each other It's like this is what was put on this planet to do like to be around other people to bring each other up to love Each other and have this nice connection If I'm honest, I think because I do live life a bit not conforming to society's norms, I've put myself maybe in more vulnerable positions because it's the places I would go, the people I hang out with, it's a bit more underground. So it's not fully regulated, but saying that you could go to a nightclub and have the same shit happen to you or a pub down the road.

So it's really hard. I just think personally for me, it makes me go out and find my people and my tribe of people who are like amazing and lovely and bring me joy. So what about you? I really like, I resonate with a lot of what you're saying with that. I think it's like having it's like having the resilience to experience shit things but not and not to like have to completely squash them down but not let that be like the thing that defines you and for me as much as there have been moments where I've not been able to have sex or like access pleasure and like feel safe in my body when I after doing a lot of like work and healing, getting to a place where I can do that again of like remembering that my body is like, this sounds really cheesy, but like my body is my home and like pleasure is such an important thing to experience in life. And that finding and building trusting relationships with people where consent is like built into the foundation and fabric of that.

Those experiences like help reinforce the good in the world and like the good in sex and pleasure. Because so often, like when we hear the word consent, it's like big, scary, non-consensual, what happens when you don't consent to stuff. But the aim of consent is to negotiate and navigate everyone involved being on board with what's happening. And when you bring pleasure into that conversation and flip it on its head, so it's less like what do you not want to do and more like what do you really want to do? Like what are you excited for? What makes your body feel good? What are you in the mood for? How like transformative all of these conversations are if we were taught that that's how you go into consent. That's so true. That's just a different way of looking at it. There's things that we do want to do together and connect

with. I really do appreciate you being so honest and open. Thank you. I appreciate you as well. This has been a big one, but I'm glad we've done it together. Same. Thank you, babe. And we're gonna, if this sounds like the end of a episode of Coronation Street, like if you've been affected by any of this, which I think so many people have done, like we'll put different organizations and like charities in the show notes. So you've got like links of where to go if you need to find out more information. We're sending you a hug. Thanks for, thanks for riding this one out with us. We love you. And I'm saying that we love, I'm saying we love you now at the end of podcasts. That's quite a lot.

We just had a therapy session. We do. We love you. Yeah. Until next week, we will see you soon. Bye.