The Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan - Slut shaming and secret fantasies with Charlotte Fox Weber

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

Who are you when no one else is watching? Ruby and Meg have a raw and candid discussion with their first ever guest: author and psychotherapist Charlotte Fox Weber. From painful stories of being slut shamed to laughing at the shame you can feel for f*cked up TV crushes, Ruby, Meg and Charlotte get shame out in the open. This is a complex and tender discussion. Sexual violence is discussed in this episode so please listen with care. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. Email the podcast: [e-mail] Ruby on socials: @rubyrare Follow Megan on socials @meganbartonhanson_Links and resources: Charlotte Fox Weber: @charlottefoxweberpsychotherapy Sacred Monsters (Forthcoming) by Charlotte Fox WeberWhat We Want by Charlotte Fox WeberCharlotte recommendations:Paula Rego (Artist)Anaïs Nin (Author)The Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan is a Mags Creative and Dear Media production Producer and Content Editor for Mags Creative: Christy Callaway-GaleEditor and Engineer: Beautiful Strangers, Podcast HouseExecutive Producers for Mags Creative: Faith Russell and Kit MilsomThis podcast contains adult themes that are not suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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One of my like most formative crushes was Supernanny. Interesting. And actually looking back and feeling a level of shame of that of like being a kid and going like why am I drawn to this? Like I'm kind of into you stomping around in your sexy little suit and your little glasses and like telling people what to do. Hi lovelies, you are listening to The Ins and Outs with me Ruby Bear. And me, Megan Barton-Hanson. It's Ruby and Megan from the future here. The conversation that we just recorded got pretty heavy.

So we want to give you a heads up that we discuss abusive relationships and sexual violence in this episode. So please listen with care. And if this episode isn't for you, no worries. Come and join us next week. We're about to dive into a very juicy topic that we both have a lot of experience with. I think slut shaming is something that we've just got to chat about more, but I was being a little historical nerd weirdo and looking this up and there were like in the 18th century, there were published like newspaper

articles shaming women's outfits and like sexual conduct and stuff. And I was just reading this piece about it and it was so weird going like that is ye olde trolling. Like that is the same behaviour as what happens on social media now. All of this is just the equivalent of slut shaming but in ye olden times. It's literally like Bridgerton. Yeah. I mean the actual real ones is a bit more savage than Bridgerton. I can imagine. Or like you know the OK magazines and stuff when they used to like circle things in red and be like, this woman, she's on holiday and like, oh my god, she's not got like an absolute six pack that circle her like cellulite. It's giving that. Yeah. But for slut shaming, evil.

And being like, how dare you show your ankles, you slag. And let me guess, there's no men that was ever mentioned in this. They can just shag who they want. I highly doubt it, yeah. Why does no one ever say this about the man? It's like, oh, he's champion because he's like sleeping with everyone. There's so many women in the media that you can think of that, to me, they're so much more than their sexual history

or what they're doing in their sex life. They're talented, amazing singers, actresses, whatever. But all the media you want to focus on is who they're fucked. It's such a double standard. That's why in today's episode, we are going to be getting into the ins and outs of... Sex and Shame. And I'm very delighted that we've got our first guest on the

pod. Hello Charlotte. Hello. I think it's a very exciting topic. Would you like to share a little bit about your work and who you are and what you do? Sure. I'm always terrible at giving my own introductions but I am a writer and a psychotherapist and I've written a book about desire and I'm writing a book at the moment about hurtful relationships and why we seek overwhelming connections. Oh my god. Can we get a copy? Certainly.

I think we're both going to really need to read that. A lot of your work has been centered around shame and understanding shame a bit better. So I'd love to start off with that, the language, how do we land into this topic? It's something that varies culture to culture, but it's always a kind of negotiating space for what you show and what you hide. And shame will kind of be double dealing. So at one point you might be shamed for being a slut and being too sexual, and then a few years later you'll be shamed for not having enough sex and being the kind of wizened witch who's dried up and cast aside in another way. So, I mean, shame is merciless for just kind of switching sides and going any direction.

It's almost like whatever you do, there is a narrative where you could be shamed for it. It will find something. Shame will find something. And if you're in a kind of shame mindset, you can spin yourself out no matter what. The way that you're describing that feels like two separate things almost, like the shame that we feel ourselves and the internal world, and then the way that shame exists externally in social scenes

and the way that people like shame others. KS Yes. MS Right. KS I think there are social norms and kind of cultural rules, but then we have our own myths in a way, like our own story of shame that's personal for each one of us. And when you explore your story with shame, it can be so specific and kind of based on humiliating moments and fleeting impressions. And I think it's worth thinking about what you tell yourself about shame in general.

This is making me get nervous. Why? Tell me why. Because now I want to, it's like, it's actually way deeper. Because suddenly I'm like, wow, where does our shame come from? I feel like as a society though, like everyone makes a joke like, oh, British people, you're so like uptight, you're so prudish. Whereas I think other cultures, they're more, not necessarily saying everything they do in their sex life, but just it's a more open conversation around sex.

I mean, I think religion definitely censors a lot and most cultures have some kind of screwy relationship with sex. But I can't think of any exceptions, like more kind of open minded cultures that are supposedly not shaming still have insidious shame. I feel like culture in general is problematic, but something we have to deal with. But I do think the religion thing is a massive angle with that. I'm just finishing my book that's coming out next year, and like, I had to do quite a lot of history deep dives around monogamy and the rules of forming relationships. And so much of that was formed around religion and especially from our perspective in the UK,

seeing how that then travels across to places that were colonized by Europe. And a lot of places, I'm Sri Lankan and British and Sri Lanka has like, as many like South Asian countries, like a history that is so forgotten and like, social scripts and culture that was so forgotten and like, actively hidden and destroyed through colonisation and so much of that is like, very Christian. I think like the way that religion like carries shame around the world is something I've like known, but all of this is really uncomfortable to

think about and talk about. And I had to kind of professionally look at it and be like, right, what do I want to put into this book? And then step away and go, ah, fuck, how has this like impacted my world and the world so much? I really like the way that you're kind of more encouraging people to become like more comfortable with shame's existence. It's almost like we want to pretend that it doesn't exist at all. And I guess working in the sex work industry, that's a big thing. Like I try and front it and I pretend like, oh, it's fine, I'm like so empowered, it's my body, I do what I want. But equally, as much as I believe that and I stand like for that and behind every single sex worker,

I can't change the whole world and there is an element of shame still. Even this year, I've not been invited to certain red carpet events because of OnlyFans. So I feel like, if I'm honest, I do have shame around being a sex worker as much as I'm an advocate for it. There's like another part of me that's like, damn, maybe if I just stuck at being a legal PA,

then I would have had a much, it definitely would be a more comfortable journey. But I don't regret it. I think it's amazingly brave, but equally I do still have shame. And it's not think it's amazingly brave, but equally, I do still have shame. And it's not only it's brave, absolutely, but also, like sex work is a space for real intimacy and exploration and care. And like, I think there are quite a lot of parallels between therapy and sex work. And when you're thinking about the emotional stuff that goes

into it, someone who's looking at what you do or other sex workers just through a lens of shame are completely disregarding all of that side that goes into it. The emotional side for sure. Yeah. It's a lot though, like you can be proud of what you do and you can also hold the shame that like society's put on you for doing that. I feel like the way I deal with it, I don't know if this is me just trying to deal with it the best way I can, but I think it's not actually my shame, because in my heart, I believe what I'm doing is perfectly fine, and if I live my life again, I'll do it all again. I feel like it's society's shame that I'm feeling, maybe.

Does that make sense or no? Completely. Do you feel like you can kind of push it away from yourself or dissipate it when you understand where it's coming from? Yeah, I feel like if I hadn't gone on like a TV show and had all these unsolicited opinions from people, I'd be 10 times happier. It's only because I'm hearing all this outside noise from people. Whereas before I wouldn't

hear it. If you didn't like what I was doing or my way of life, you wouldn't be my friend, you wouldn't be in my circle. But I think now it's different because I hear all these views and then it makes me second guess myself, I guess. But also, I feel like when you do something brave, like speaking out on this subject, you're not supposed to have any ambivalence, which is so unrealistic. Like there's this expectation that people are supposed to back themselves 100%. When everyone has doubts or criticisms about their work, whatever that is. But when it's something that's so controversial, you're supposed to be 100 percent and it's just an added pressure.

Because it's like a controversial career, I'm not allowed to complain. It's like you've picked your lane, deal with it. That's crazy. Oh my god, you're amazing. Live therapy people is happening. Hardly, but I feel like you're very open and honest as well, which can also be used against you probably. Yeah, for sure. I've made that mistake. But I mean, it's something to just embrace, but not everyone is kind of deserving of total honesty. I think. Like, I find it a lot as well with partners and people I'm dating. At first, when we're dating, they're fine with the whole sex work thing. They're fine when I'm financing the

holiday or buying their first car for them or paying for this or paying for that. And then the first argument is like thrown in your face like, who would want to be of you anyway? Like you just get your tits out for a living. Like you think anyone's going to respect you. I'm not surprised, but I also am surprised that anyone you're dating feels that they are allowed to throw that out as an insult. But is your response to something like that? I just shut down and get nasty, but obviously,

once that whole argument situation has like ended, I've kicked them out of my house, wherever we are, I've left the situation, it plays on your mind, because it's like, these people are supposed to love me. I was like dating a girl and I thought I don't know where she's a woman she might get it more. So much of what we're talking about here is like massively socialized behavior that everyone has experienced. So if we're looking at like misogyny and sexual violence and slut shaming that is particularly targeting women. We all have grown up in that environment and we've all inherited those messages. I think we all have that voice in us,

even if we don't want to admit it, that we're also used to shaming ourselves and shaming other people, but at the same time, it's the water that we all swim in. And acting like none of us are wet. It's like, is kind of an impossible task. It's trying to look at this with a bit of realism of like, okay, why is that the assumption that I go to? Why does someone, when we're in an argument, jump to that as like a low blow? Because it's what we've learned even before we was conscious that we was hearing this or picking this information up.

The narrative on soap operas, TV, everything as a kid, that is the narrative that women are either an absolute slut and you're not like wifey material and like you're a sex worker or this or you're wifey material, but then you never want to fuck and you're boring. That's the narrative and that's like the boxes women are, either a slut or... Mother Madonna or... Yeah. Let's bring Freud in, guys. Yeah.

Do you want to talk? I feel like you can explain this. We tend to divide women into kind of sacred, divine status or maternal status or just sexual, dirty, kind of uncensored and totally lawless. And it's really hard to integrate. And it's hard to integrate even in our sense of self. So being a mother and being sexual and being a good woman and being a bad woman, like all of these different kind of inner tensions play out for all of us. If we're really kind of honest about those nuances. But I think we're constantly kind of designating ourselves as one thing or another and wanting to be seen as good.

And how fucking exhausting is that? I've really tried over the last couple of years in my personal life, but also my work to allow myself to just show up a lot more messy because I'm just exhausted by trying to meet a standard of some kind of perfection that I've created in my own mind that is impossible to get to and to hide the fact that I am messy and flawed and human. I think especially showing up to work stuff of having to just put on this front that everything's fine, nothing's going, it's really, it just adds more pressure on top of pressure that we're already all experiencing. And even for me, working in sex education, it's quite a strange thing when you're presented

all the time as a relationships and sex expert, because day job wise, yeah, I've got lots of knowledge and sex expert, because like, day job wise, yeah, I've got lots of knowledge and I can talk about this. And I like, know how to facilitate spaces. But I think I feel a lot of shame about the assumptions that that then puts on me in my personal life. And sometimes people probably aren't thinking this, but then it's in my brain.

So I'm like, I'm perpetuating it as well. But the idea that if I'm going on a date with someone, I have to then it's in my brain. So I'm perpetuating it as well. But the idea that if I'm going on a date with someone, I have to be an expert in that arena and amazing at everything and incredible at sex, which I've got some tricks up my sleeve, but I'm definitely not. You have to be Mother Madonna and Tord. Yeah, but I have to do all of this stuff because that's a professional lens that I'm perceived through a lot of the time, which I imagine is pretty similar for you.

I think where I've been working from such young age and put on this kind of sexual character for when I was working in a strip club, I'd done webcam, OnlyFans, all of this. I feel like I've always been a highly sexualized character of myself. It's not the actual me. And then I went on reality TV and then I felt like that was a different version of myself and every job I do I feel like there's different versions. So I was like, it's been so long now. I wonder what I actually feel like. I think I'm very

rigid. I've got ADHD so it might be like very black and white. I think, oh, okay, I'm very rigid. I've got ADHD, so it might be like very black and white. I think, oh, okay, I'm either going to be a sex worker or I'm going to be a nun and a mother. Like, am I this or am I that? Like, we don't have to pick. Who are you when no one else is watching? Like, who do we want to be when, like, there's not the pressure of being perceived by other people? Yes. Such a good question. I think we should all admit a degree of hypocrisy as well. I don't understand why hypocrisy is so unmentionable as a thing. Like, I'm sometimes hypocritical

for what I practice and what I preach. Oh my god. That's really bad to say. No, it's not. I mean, ask my family. Yeah, we're all allowed to behave badly. And hypocrisy isn't always bad, but we're also like just allowed to hold different parts of ourselves and different opinions and feelings.

And like, we're all fluid little humans just trying to get through life. And I think when there's such a heavy lens of criticism on our actions, it becomes really hard to remember that. But if we give ourselves permission to be a little bit hypocritical, it's so liberating because you have loopholes and it's okay if you're not entirely consistent or 100% sure of something. And sexually especially. I think expecting your values to align with your dark fantasies is error number one. You might feel something politically or morally by day, but you're allowed to be obscene and completely inappropriate in what you fantasize about and who you're attracted to. I think Tony Soprano is a great example of that. Actually, TV has a lot of good villainous examples for

our kind of weird attractions to nefarious characters. What's Tony Soprano into? I don't know the Sopranos. The Sopranos? Oh my goodness. I've never watched it. I'm waiting to get like glandular fever or something and then I'll like watch it all. It is. I also hope I don't get clench and fever. It's so incredibly riveting. I find it riveting because I find Tony Soprano so kind of abhorrent and ghastly and sexually

appealing at the same time. Ooh. So bad. I do like a fucked up crush. I think when you're like, I don't know why, but I'm drawn to this. Okay. I mean, now we're getting into somewhere a little bit more silly territory, but I, I, I, one of my like most formative crushes was Supernanny. Interesting. I did not expect

I can see it. I think she's a queer icon and actually looking back and feeling a level of shame of that of like being a kid and going like, why am I drawn to this? Like I'm kind of into you stomping around in your sexy little suit and your little glasses and like telling people what to do. But like being, allowing yourself to sit with that and go like, oh wow, kind of weird crush. There we go.

Like that has been quite helpful for me. Fucked up crushes. I've got them. Charlotte's got them. What about you Meg? I honestly don't think I have any. Maybe I'm more vanilla than I thought. We've not delved deep enough. It can go the other way as well where you might think that you're really sexually liberated and open minded

and then actually you just want to go to sleep or have missionary or whatever it is like in some kind of surprisingly banal way. I make this distinction in my work around the difference between a shameful secret and privacy and like something that you want to just keep for yourself and especially when we're thinking about fantasies, like the number of people who've messaged me or spoken to me about sexual fantasies of theirs that they feel shame for because they've been taught that that is something that should not be shared,

that is like wrong in some kind of way. And trying to allow people to like sift the shame away from that of going like, actually it's okay for you to have parts of your sexual life, part of your sexual fantasies that aren't needing to be shared, even with like an intimate partner of being like, actually this is something that's just for me,

I'm going to like explore this. And for that to not be this like terrible dirty secret, there being like agency and choice keeping that. I wonder like if that kind of distinction comes up in your work at all. So much and I think the difference between fantasy and acting out is also incredibly kind of protective. So a lot of people fantasize about rape. Big taboo to say that. But that is not the same as actually wanting to be raped.

And I think, I mean, that's just one extreme example that is incredibly prevalent, but it's something that comes up at different moments in therapy for different reasons. I mean, not in a kind of standard intake form sort of way, but it's something where it can be illuminating to understand, but that doesn't mean that you want it to be taken literally. Yeah, I guess there's like a distinction to make. This is so important to talk about. I can find it hard to talk about a survivor of sexual assault and like, I think that means that this stuff is

important to discuss, but also can be very, like really conflicting, really complicated. really conflicting, really complicated. From my, from like professional hats, I get where you're coming from. I think I've definitely had chats with people before where it's like you, if you have been socialized to deny yourself sexual pleasure and to not see yourself as someone who is permitted to experience that. An experience where you have less agency and less choice can be a window to permit yourself some of that pleasure. And even, and like that is in a fantasy space because in real life, rape and sexual assault is not that in any way. And it's such a, I tend to use the phrasing ravishment fantasies to distinguish that from like, sexual violence that happens in real life.

But fantasies can also be really offensive. And that is another point. I mean, the fact that you might feel offended by rape fantasies and just the kind of concept of them. Like it can feel galling and I have, I felt very offended in my personal life when I've heard about certain fantasies and I can't believe I'm admitting that because that is another hypocrisy because I'm so pro, kind of open conversation and not being censored, but I've been outraged. Anger is the emotion that I feel like the least confident in, like it takes a lot for me to get angry. And then when I do, that's when I feel like the most out of control because I've not exercised anger very well in my life. Interesting. That's the most overwhelming. More overwhelming than shame. Yeah. Because shame is like an internal, like... It just keeps you frozen.

Yeah. And also, like, I've grown up being taught to feel shame by the world around me. But I haven't been, like, if you're socialized as a woman, or like to become a woman, a big part of that for me was that you shouldn't be angry. That's so true. Yeah. We just don't ever get like, how do you deal with it as a woman if you're like really furious and angry? Like, because then you become crazy. Then you're like, your anger is anger is dismissed and seen as something hot-headed and over-emotional versus if it's a man getting angry, it's like, yeah, that's your right, that's protective. But if we're thinking about it in such binary gendered ways, there's a real distinction. Even within my queer spaces, I think the way that I relate to emotions is still so much as someone

who has been socialized within womanhood and what the confines of that. That is so true, isn't it? Guys, no one bat an eyelid if a guy was like, found out his girlfriend was cheating and he smashed something up and walked out the room and was fuming. If we'd done that, oh my God, she's crazy, she's nuts. Oh my god must be the time of the month. Like what? Mental? I never thought about that. Eww. That's so gross. That is the correct response. Eww. And also like I don't want to condone that as like the correct way to behave. No. Me and one of my best mates, we haven't done to condone that as the correct way to behave. No, of course. Or be like, me and one of my best mates, we haven't done it yet and we keep talking about

it. Both of us looked up those rage rooms where you smash shit up. And that is, it's not a sexual fantasy. That is a deep fantasy of mine. That is an emotional fantasy. I want to smash up an old office printer and let it have all of that energy because I can feel how much of that is in me and there's not really outlets for that to go anywhere because I don't want to hurt someone. I'm not I don't think that's like the aim in terms of how we show our anger but I want to hurt a printer. Oh my god please can we

go let's do it let's do it Charlotte do you want to come? I so much my God, please, can we go? Let's do it. Let's do it. Charlotte, do you want to come? So much, but I'm worried. I don't think I got the memo for being ladylike because I feel much more comfortable being angry than being ashamed. Yeah. I'm going to take a leaf out of your book. Next time I feel like, oh God, I feel like slight hints of shame coming out.

I'm like, hmm, what can I destroy around here? Safely. Put the little goggles on. Make sure no one else is in the firing line. I think it's why art and literature and music can be such a relief as well, because it kind of explores that shadowy part of ourselves that we don't dare deal with, but like, it's all there. Have you got other recommendations that you want to suggest for if people want to like

learn about shame a bit more? I think that we can learn about shame from so many areas of life. I think having a general attitude of curiosity about it can make it more interesting as well, just as something to kind of embrace rather than hide from. And I think the artist Paula Rico is, she's my current soulmate. If you look her up, she just did the most amazing paintings of folklore and different scenes of abortion and motherhood and anger and heartbreak. And it's so kind of shocking and radical. And she was so unselfconscious, but also kind of talented and understated. So I think discovering examples, we need more examples of women

who have been kind of undaunted in those ways. I think Anais Nin is a great writer as well for just inappropriate sexual material. We will put them in the show nights so everyone can go and learn from them. And can you please plug your wonderful book? It's called Sacred Monsters and it's coming out next year. And the book that you

have that is currently out is called What We Want, right? Yes, it's about our hidden desires and wanting things like attention and power. Okay, homework. Thank you so much Charlotte for coming in. I feel like you've really changed my whole perspective on shame. I feel like maybe rather than holding it in, just need to let it out a bit more in a rage room. I'm so delighted. It's so great talking with you both. That's it for today. If you loved hearing our really raw conversation with Charlotte and want to find out more from her, please check the show notes. Her Instagram will be tagged. Yeah, and this has been a really big conversation so we'd love to hear your thoughts and feelings. You can email us at hello at ins and outs pods.com and this has been a heavy topic.

We've bounced around a lot of stuff but like please be very gentle with yourself after listening to this. Give yourself a hug, we're giving one back to you. Barney Arms. Barney Arms! Barney Hugs. Barney Hugs. We'll be back next week with another episode of

The Inns and Outs. Bye loves.