The Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan - Speedy sperm, awkward sex-ed and Meg asks: why are we learning about triangles but not sex?

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Was your sex ed growing up giving Mean Girls vibes? Ruby and Meg give you the sex ed you wish you’d had…. Including a fun fact about the speed of sperm! As a sex educator on the ground, Ruby shares some of the most popular questions kids ask in sex ed classes and Meg shares her mortifying 1970s-style sex ed experience at school. They chat about the things they wish they’d been told and why a more open dialogue would help cut the shame and stigma for teens figuring out their sexuality. Email the podcast: [e-mail] Ruby on socials: @rubyrare Follow Megan on socials @meganbartonhanson_Links and resources: History of the dildo - e.g. https://umsu.unimelb.edu.au/news/article/7797/2019-08-11-the-history-of-the-dildo/ Alabama and sex toys - e.g. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/high-court-lets-alabama-sex-toy-ban-stand/ Sex ed guidance (May 2024) - https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2024/05/16/new-rshe-guidance-what-it-means-for-sex-education-lessons-in-schools/ Ruby and Meg recommendations:Sex Ed: A Guide for Adults by Ruby RareThe Ins and Outs with Ruby and Megan is a Mags Creative and Dear Media production Producer and Content Editor for Mags Creative: Christy Callaway-GaleEditor and Engineer: Beautiful Strangers, Podcast HouseExecutive Producers for Mags Creative: Faith Russell and Kit MilsomThis podcast contains adult themes that are not suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm Lauren and I'm Ashley and this guys is Nip Tuck Pod. We are your girl chat. We say the things you want to hear, the things that you're thinking but you don't want to say out loud and we're all about being strong aspirational women who basically don't give a... Lauren anyway if you want unfiltered chat, amazing beauty and product recommendations then look no further guys. This is the podcast where you will get all of the girly chat. The following podcast is a Dear Media production. So if you do get a class and they're feeling particularly chatty, what are some of the

like most random or common questions that come up. Oh my gosh, okay. How fast does sperm shoot out of a penis? Stop, can I tell you what I heard when I was at school? Apparently it's like so many miles an hour and it can actually blind you. Hello and welcome to the Inns and Outs podcast with me, Ruby Rare. And me, Megan Barton-Hansen. It was National Sex Toy Day this week and

obviously I love to celebrate any weird sex related holiday. So I'd love to share a couple of strange sex toy facts with you if you're down. The oldest sex toy that has been found was a dildo found in a German cave and it is 30,000 years old. 30,000 years old? Ancient, an ancient dildo. No, I thought everyone was so virginal and pure back then. Why do you think that? Until I saw a wooden dildo in a museum and I thought, girl, you're going to get splintered in the puss. Yeah, wooden's not a great vibe. I guess if it's finished properly that could work but like a DIY wooden dildo is not making my body feel great right now. And like there's lots

of different examples of this like people used to make dildos out of like bread essentially like dough flour and water. Get out. Not great for a yeast infection. No. I feel for... Brush is gonna thrive in that environment. Yeah, not great. But I love that people have just been like inventive and making weird sex toys throughout time. Nowadays I would recommend not using bread products as sex toys but back in the day we'll give them a pass. But also there's weird legality stuff around sex toys. So it's still ongoing that in Alabama, in the States, it's technically illegal to buy sex toys. And there's been a long history of that in so many places, but in the States, like up until

like the 90s, early noughties, loads of states like forbid the selling of like sex products and they had to be sold as like entertainment, like novelty items. What? But yeah, a few years ago there was this like big controversy in Alabama of like, hang on a minute. So like that is a state that has some of the most lenient gun control laws and yet the obscenity laws like ban products around sex. Above guns that can kill people. Like the worst case scenario, someone's going to have cardiac arrest because they've come too many times. Like, can we please get it into perspective?

Although actually, I've got sex toy that's like stainless steel, and it is brilliant. It's beautiful. But I once took it on my-on when I was flying and it's heavy. Like I think actually that could be classified as a weapon. If I wanted to do damage, that's probably the object in my house where I could do the most damage. Realizing as I was going through security that I was going to have to explain that. Thankfully the guy was really understanding and he like got to the like little pouch and I was like, that's a sex toy.

And then he opened it and was like, yep, it is, that's cool. I'm not gonna do that again. Let's not fly with dangerous objects. And what a nice guy not to get it out and wave it around. I never forget, I once went to a football match and I've never been to a football match but the girl I was dating played football and I was there with her mom and all her aunts

and I had a little travel suitcase and they said can you open that and I had a whole strap on in there and they waved it everywhere and I was so mortified. Not the strap as well, that's like a special object. Mum and the aunts! Who knew to go to football they're gonna search your case? How were they? I just blanked it, I can't really remember. I just went very red, my whole body was burning, I was sweating profusely. You went into fight or flight, you're just like,

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna acknowledge this is happening. She was in hysterics, I was like, it's not funny, do you tell me to get this? I don't even want to wear it. Well, okay, good PSA for football games and airports. Just be mindful of what you're taking in your carry on. Travel light. And don't bring them to Alabama. I can't believe that that's crazy. It's wild. Shall we crack on with today's topic?

Yeah, let's get into it. So this week we're tackling the ins and outs of... Sex Eds! Woo! One of my favorite topics, although maybe I'm going to say that about every single thing we talk about on this show, but sex ed is very close to my heart because I spent five years going into schools and teaching sex education and have a lot of stories to tell from that. Mad fact though, it only became mandatory, like compulsory to teach sex education in schools in 2020. What?

Yeah. So what do people think was doing before? It's been optional, like depending on the school, if and how they want to. There's some things in like biology that you have to cover, like there's not really been a curriculum, it's been very like pick and choose and choose your own adventure. And I think for lots of people it's meant they've had really bad experiences. This episode we're going to really get into that a little bit more. To begin with though, I want to hear about your experiences of sex ed in schools. Oh dear, mine was very basic like honestly we didn't really

get taught a lot. They were wheeling a tv, play some video tape from the 70s, and that was it. No explaining, no like, saying what's going to be on this video, what's our... It was just literally the main facts, which I'm sure you've heard all the time. Like, don't get pregnant, this is what periods are, use a condom, you might get syphilis and die, basically. It was just very abrupt, like very... use a condom, you might get syphilis and die, basically. Which is very abrupt, like very, they just done the least. Yeah, I think so often people's experiences,

if there is any sex education in school, it's like almost a tick box exercise. And I find that hard when, if we're thinking about relationships and sex, and I always make sure to like bring relationships into this as well, because it's not just them like mechanics of sex. It's also like the emotional stuff. How do we relate to one another? When you're a teenager, how are you thinking about sex and relationships as like potential future parts of your life,

even current parts of your life. Like I remember my sex education was not great. It was my like religious studies teacher who did it. And she, the main piece of advice she gave us, I was at an all girls school, main thing she said was like, girls, you have to remember, while I can find sex incredibly pleasuring and rewarding, it can also be physically exhausting. And I'm, it's like, what a Debbie Downer. I'm 13 years old. I don't want to think about you having sex right now and you having sex so vigorously that you're exhausted. That's like not, why are we, that's so wildly inappropriate as like sage wisdom to pass onto a classroom of like

teenagers. It's fucking nuts. Yeah, what it should be about your own experiences. Yeah. How you're like lacking stamina and then just telling all your students that like sorry. Or going at it so hard that she's like I need a break now. Was it just one sex ed class we had? Because I swear I just had the one for the whole entirety of my whole school life. Would they have it like monthly or a couple times? I think we had it a couple times. It was not great, but I think maybe mine was a bit better than the average. There were a couple classes, but, just so much of it was about fear. Don't get pregnant, don't get an STI, sex can be this thing that goes wrong.

While all of that is useful information if it's done in a slightly kinder way, there was nothing in my sex education that said sex can be fun. Yeah. And sex is allowed to be fun. Oh my god, I want you to tell me about how you teach when you go in. Because I feel like it's going to be like polar opposite of what I got taught. I hope so. I mean, there's such, it varies a lot, the standard of sex education now, but there are so many amazing people who go into schools who are trained to do this. Who like, again, I think it's wild that we expect like,

a maths teacher or like a science teacher to be able to do a class about this if that's like not the thing that they've practiced and trained for. Yeah, but I feel like what you said, I just never even thought about that. Like I was so quick to be like, my teachers done such a crappy job of like teach me sex education. But like you said, they're not trying to do that so it makes sense why you would have like an outsider like yourself professional come in and teach kids like that. This is like best case scenario I always wanted to go into a classroom and give people

the opportunity to form their own opinions and share them because it like so much of school in general is like this is right this is do this, don't do that. Yeah, and kind of giving, having a sense of agency in that of like, if someone in the class disagrees with what I'm saying, wanting to ask why and like explore things a little bit. And obviously, if someone's being like, actively really dismissive or chatting about things in a way that is really problematic. I was the teacher. I could be firm with certain things, but I wanted it to feel fun and I wanted to invite laughter and weird questions and it be a bit of an escape from the rest of someone's school day.

Yeah. Because ultimately, if you're going in as the weird sex lady, people are a bit intrigued because it's just different from what they normally do. But yeah, you kind of you want to strike that balance. You've got a lot of information that you want to convey that's like fact based of like how you use a condom and what it's like when you go to an STI clinic and how to navigate consent and what consent is for everyone involved. But you also want it to be a bit silly and a bit fun to engage everyone. And I think the fact that you're young and fun and cool,

people would want to actually listen to you rather than like... I mean, I think older... I don't think you have to be young in order to talk about this in an engaging way, and also it's not instructive. This is not... There's so many misconceptions. Honestly, I feel excited that we're talking about this, but nervous because sex education as a topic is really vilified right now in the media, like especially in the States,

but it's still happening a lot in the UK. The idea that people who go who like teach relationship and sex education are groomers that like people are being like inappropriate in schools and talking like so much stuff gets like really blown out of proportion and intentionally misinterpreted by people who are very like anti-sex, anti-sex education. And it's kind of scary to work in this field. There's something very vulnerable about it when people have those assumptions, because going in and teaching relationship and sex education, especially to teenagers, should not be about saying like, this is how you have sex.

You're never going in and saying like, you should do this. Or like, it's all abstract. And again, that's why like training and being really comfortable in that space, you're able to manage those situations in a really mindful way. Can you give me an example then? One of the examples that I feel very strongly about

is that still in the relationship in sex ed curriculum, pleasure is not mentioned at all. Yeah. And in one way I kind of get it from like the government and schools talking about pleasure feels very scary because it does feel it's so different from like that nuts and bolts sex ed that we got. And it's, and I guess there's that fear

that it's more instructional and it's like telling young people what to do and like encourage like any of that kind of stuff. But to my mind, if you're not teaching consent with a lens of pleasure as well, you're missing out on some really, really fundamental aspects of sex and relationships, like being able to just talk about one of the key reasons why people do this stuff is for pleasure. And there are ways that you can speak about that, that are very appropriate to a younger audience that aren't like crossing like clearly inappropriate lines aren't like my teacher telling, giving information about like your own personal sex life. That's really not what it's about. And I kind of, for everyone who's

skeptical about this, I wish that they could be in a classroom and see how it was handled and spoken about. I can imagine it must feel like walking on eggshells because you don't want to say the wrong thing. And I think if I went in and I just spoke openly, like, from my heart, like if it was my, I don't know, my friend's kids or a cousin of mine, I would just be so like brutally honest, but I feel like the language probably wouldn't. You must have to watch your language is what I'm trying to say, but like equally, I don't think there's anything wrong in speaking about pleasure because for so long, when I was young, the whole narrative was what to get any kind of actual real education from

what other than your teacher said, you'd literally have to go on porn to learn that. And then every single time the woman's being like used basically, there's nothing about her pleasure in there. So I think it's so important to say to especially young girls, you don't have to just do this just to be like, oh, I wanna lose my virginity or I wanna like join this club. Like you wanna like discover your own body, find out what you like before having sex with anyone else. If I could go back in time,

I never would have had sex until I could make myself orgasm, if that makes sense. Like I feel like you need to know your own body before you fuck someone else. Yeah, completely. And that's unlike, that is a really important message. my self orgasm, if that makes sense. Like I feel like you need to know your own body before you fuck someone else. And that's, and like, that is a really important message. So when you ask them about sex, what, how do they explain it? What do they think it is? Often it's going people saying like, oh, it's like a penis going into a vagina.

It's like, all right, so that's the main way that we see sex. But like, is that the only type of sex? Like, why do we assume that sex is penetrative? Why do we assume that it involves like a penis and a vagina? And then breaking that down and going like sex can be so many different things between you and another person or other people if we want to get really spicy, probably wouldn't have said that in school. But also sex is something that can be experienced alone. Like masturbation is a very healthy thing that people may want to do if they want to. And it's normalised a bit more for men than it is for women. But that's a real misconception because experiencing pleasure alone is a valid thing.

It must be so hard because is it risky to say that or not? It can be. I mean, I guess it's not thinking like I want to talk about pleasure every time, but it's going in with the idea that like, we're here to learn about sex and relationships. This is a topic that is important, but it can also be fun. And the aim of this is to give you information so you can go off in the world, make your own choices and have a nice time. Do you speak on like pressure? Because I feel like I don't know if you felt the same, but when I was younger, there was almost like this urgency to lose your virginity just to

say, I've done it. And it was the biggest regret of my life. And I was like, why? Why? I weirdly, when you go into schools, teenagers are so obsessed with the law and with age, because at that time, it's really important. And like, the age of consent in the in the UK is 16. So, like, we, I would often have to explain what that means. That isn't like, it's illegal to have sex under the age of 16. But it's, that's there as a protective measure measure. Like if two 15 year olds have consensual sex, the police are not going to be like banging down anyone's door. If like a parent called being like, this is illegal, like that wouldn't be pursued, given that that was a consensual experience. And with like two teenagers who were like of a similar age, 13 and younger, there's like a lot more safeguarding stuff in place. That's my like professional adult ruby hat on. When I was a teenager, I saw 16 as like the age almost like defying the law and that if you didn't have sex before that age, you weren't cool. Yeah.

Which is so fucked up. But like that in my mind, I was like, age, you weren't cool. Yeah. Which is so fucked up. But like that in my mind, I was like, right, I've got a crack on, I have to have sex before I'm 16 because that's like what everyone else is doing. And there really wasn't any conversation about that. Until you've told me in this moment that it wasn't, I thought it was illegal.

If I had sex before. Really? I waited a week off to my 16th birthday because I thought, oh, they won't put me in prison if it's just the week off. Meg, baby. a week off till my 16th birthday because I thought, oh they won't put me in prison if it's just a week off. No baby! I'm just five days away from being 16, it's okay now right? I love that you were very well behaved and you were like, oh well I'll wait till after I was 16 and I was like, rebel I've got to get it done. So if you do get a class and they're feeling particularly chatty, what are some of the

most random or common questions that come up? Oh my gosh, okay. How fast does sperm shoot out of a penis? Stop, can I tell you what I heard when I was at school? Apparently it's like so many miles an hour and it can actually blind you. Blind you? Okay, that's not true. Although if you get come in your. Apparently it's like so many miles an hour and can actually blind you. Blind you? Okay, that's not true. Although if you get cum in your eye, it's not an ideal situation. There is a certain mile per hour and I can't remember now because I've not done this for a while. But yeah, wait, I am annoyed that I forgot this. I'm going to look up how fast

fast come comes out of the body 28 miles per hour that's so speedy girl what on earth told you it's dangerous to rise blinding next time I'm going down there and put my science goggles on I wonder if there. I wonder if there's a similar thing for like squirt. I don't think there's as much science behind this. Yeah, Google's not coming up with this. But yet again, another thing about how under-researched certain parts of sex are, particularly if it's around women's bodies. But yeah, like a fascination with that,

like people putting their hands up and like telling me that there are certain positions where you can't get pregnant, of being like, hun, that's not, I'm actually the teacher here, that's not true. People, a lot of concern around like sex and periods of like does that get you pregnant, does it not? Yes, there is still a chance that that could happen like just because you're on your period, still protection. What else? Oh, I used to because when I was teaching like that was when Game of Thrones was still on telly. And I used to if I was teaching a lesson about porn, and was like, if like defining porn is like sexually explicit content with the kind of intense, like with the intention of arousal,

like creating arousal and desire. Sometimes like especially people in younger classes would get like, and younger class I'm talking like year nine would get really nervous and be like, oh my God, I watch Game of Thrones with my parents. Like, does that mean I'm watching porn with them? And is that illegal? Cause if like an adult's showing me porn, I was like,

oh honey, no, it's different. That's like a different entertainment thing. It's okay. So like, I think a lot of the time teenagers would take things like very literally, and then you have to kind of unpack around those questions that come up. That's so cute.

How do you not laugh? They're like, oh, I'm watching Game of Thrones. Is that poor? When I do feel a bit cheeky about this, I did like year seven, which is I'm watching Game of Thrones. When I do feel a bit cheeky about this, I did like year seven, which is like 11, 12 year olds, I would go in and do like lessons about puberty and body changes. Like as people were like start entering hellish puberty land. And they're always so sweet when they're that little, they're like brand new to secondary school. They like look so innocent. Teenagehood hasn't like, like hit them quite yet. And

so there was a like a really sweet boy who put his hand up and was like, if you masturbate a lot, would you ever run out of sperm? Because it was a playful class. I just looked at him and was like, yeah, you can just run out of sperm. And like watched his face go. And then had to be like, oh I'm joking I'm joking and then he was like really it was like oh god okay I was like no baby don't worry I promise you're fine I was like damn my last supply and I'm like so young I've got my whole life to go it's like no it doesn't it really doesn't work like that so how does it work would you teach like the whole class together or do you take like the girls off the guys off? I think it's important that we give young people of all genders the same education. I don't like the boys in here, let's talk about wet dreams,

girls in here, let's talk about periods. But I also think for some topics, it's useful to be able to speak to different genders. a lot of the time boys in classes would just bulldoze and ask questions and for a girl to put her hand up and ask a question was immediately like slut-shamy that she wanted to know something or like it's yeah there's no like ideal way of doing it but I think there are some moments like I would always prefer to teach porn in separate genders because actually allows the girls to talk a bit more freely.

Yeah, and that's what they need. I think that would be like my biggest thing to just go in there with a banner and be like, don't be pressured, explore your own body before you let anyone else come near you. And that's basically it. That's Meg sex ed. Literally. Because I think no one said that to me. There was just this urgency to lose your virginity. It was all about the guy and you're either a slag that's fucked everyone or you're frigid. So I see why like if it was mixed genders and you're speaking about pleasure, sex, anything,

why the girls wouldn't want to put their hand up because I feel like back then it was so obviously they're like kids that they're gonna put you in one bracket or another. Yeah, totally. But yeah, I feel like with my sex education, it was purely just like straight hetero sex. No one would even touch on gay like relationships. What's about it was just not even acknowledged like it was a thing. Was it the same for you? Yeah, mine was completely, when a man and a woman love each other very much, they come

together and that is what sex is like. And I think I would have realized that I was queer earlier if there had been some mention of that in school sex ed, of just an acknowledgement of like, hey, sexuality is a broad thing. And we're much better at talking about it now, but there's still a long way to go. Back when we were at school, there was none of that. Being bisexual and being gay existed, but like out of the classroom, and it was just like used as a dismissive thing to bully people. But like, it wasn't acknowledged by teachers at all.

And I think that does so much damage to queer people of not having any information about our own sex education. Like, well, not having any information about the sex that we might go on to have in our lives. Because like you and I both also sleep with men. So like some of that information was useful. Yeah. But for mates of mine who are gay, none of the like, pregnancy stuff, a lot of the STI stuff wasn't relevant because it was so focused on like a penis being there. There's so much that we miss out on. And I also think it does a disservice to straight people as well of like not learning about sex in this like, broader kind of way. It invites people to be a bit more playful

and a bit more curious because queer sex is great. Yeah and like you know when people are like oh it's because like you're talking about so much people are just going to try out of like curiosity. I think do you think that's the thing that people like okay if you speak about it then you're kind of encouraging it but it's not because I feel like it can't do any harm to just educate. That is the line that lots of people who are fearful of sex education and want to shut it down will use. First of all, the internet exists. Teenagers talk about this shit all the time. They know. But second, there are lots of studies that have shown that giving information to teenagers does not encourage them to have sex earlier.

It's just about empowering and giving information. I used to teach sex ed in loads of different schools, but some of them were faith schools, where either a Catholic school or a school with like a predominantly Muslim student base. And you know, you'd want to make sure that there were lots of conversations with the school beforehand about how that was handled. And there might be certain things that schools didn't want to talk about or wanted to talk about in a certain way. But even when I remember one class I was in, it was like an all girls school and it was like a predominantly

Muslim class and I started talking about some of this stuff and a few of them were like this isn't relevant to us like I'm not going to have sex until I'm married I'm not interested in this and actually me being able to say like that's absolutely okay I'm not I'm not here to tell you what to do but I hope this is a useful information for you in the future. And also you may have friends who might be going through some of this earlier than that and you having a bit of information about contraception or like sexual health in general, and even information about like what your options are if someone finds out they're pregnant and like what abortion care can be like. There's not me saying this is something you're going to do or you should do, but it's giving a bit of

information so that maybe someone who like isn't interested in having sex can support a friend or a loved one while they go through something. In the same way as like sharing information about sexuality and gender identity isn't saying, is not making anyone be queer or be trans, but we all have people in our lives who are queer and trans people exist and we need to support and care for and I think celebrate them. And so having that information is really important. Yeah, it infuriates me so bad.

Like when people like oh no you don't want to tell young people about this because then they're gonna go gonna want to go out and do it. In my experience of anything not even about sex if someone's told no don't do it or it's taboo or it's not spoken about it's like a moth to a flame like oh why is it so? You wanna know more, and then you end up getting yourself in like sticky situations because you're not fully educated. You don't know what the hell you're doing. No one's told me this.

Whereas if everyone just knew from a young age, it's very simple, like this is what people do when they have sex. This is how two men have sex. This is how two women have sex, whatever. Like if it's just spoken about, very matter of factly, you don't have to go in the ins and outs. Everyone is on a level playing field. They know what they're doing. What if they don't want to have sex until they're 40 and they're married? That's up to you.

But it should just be like compulsory. I just think it's so heartbreaking that we're out here teaching people the fucking right angles of a triangle, but we're not teaching them things that we're actually going to need. Really like fundamental human emotional stuff. And like, also love that you have said ins and outs in a very branded way in this chat. Just noting it. Just drop that in there. The thing about the ins and outs of this, I'm like, yes Meg, ins and outs. But I fully agree.

I have some empathy for how scary this can feel if you're someone who has grown up with a lot of shame around sex and maybe has grown up in an environment where sex was really demonized or whatever it is, you've had negative experiences of how these things have been spoken about. But ultimately, this is about wellbeing and healthcare and giving people options and informing people of like, lots of different choices. It really breaks my heart that people are not willing to acknowledge how beneficial this is to individuals and to like a wider society as well. I'm so naive as much as I can sit here and say I'm so passionate about this, this needs to happen.

I haven't once researched like what the protocol is or anything. So what, as it stands right now, every school has to do it, but just up to them what they teach and what they don't teach. So nowadays, there is a curriculum for relationship and sex education. In primary school, it's just relationship education. And there's certain things that are like mandatory to teach at different stages in the education process. There are some opt out options,

if it's like a faith based school, but I think it's quite good to like have it as part of an actual like curriculum in the same way that you'd be like, okay, I don't know, maths or like geography in year nine, these are the beats that we want to hit. Like, what are we wanting like young people to be able to grasp at that stage. I think that's really positive. The danger right now, so it was weird because at the beginning of summer, just before the general election, like the Tory government announced this like guidance to change the relationship and sex ed curriculum that was really, really shocking and horrible. I like went up in arms about it. And then it was weird to be

like, Oh, there's an election now. So how much of this is still carrying on? And now new government and they're still finding their feet. And like, there's, I'm kind of, you know, we'll see what's going to happen with it. This guidance isn't like enforced in any way, but it's really disturbing them basically saying, schools shouldn't teach about gender at all, and they should talk about gender identity as a contested belief, which I'm doing air quotes for people listening, I think that's fucking bullshit. And it's all under the guise of protecting the innocence of childhood. Whereas I would say, what about trans young people in schools? And to deny, to say that their experience is a contested belief, the harm that that does as well.

And then also they put age limits in of saying that you shouldn't teach loads of things. Talking about sexual violence below a certain age, like younger than year nine, and like contraception and STIs. And I think that's so harmful because there's obviously appropriate age appropriate ways of talking about all these subjects. But by year nine and year 10, a lot of the people in schools are already having lived experience of this. And you're like denying information, you're shutting down conversations rather than acknowledging that these conversations are complicated and need to be done with a lot of care, but that we still need to do them.

Yeah, so they're gonna go on anyway. Yeah. Oh, it's happening anyway. So you just like not telling people how to deal with these situations or handle it, it's just gonna make them feel even more isolated. Yeah. It's so, so sad. It's rough. And there's lots of people on both sides who are really passionate about this. There's lots of people who really believe this shouldn't be going on in schools. And I don't,

I strongly disagree with them, but I'd like to be able to be in the same room as them and talk about this. Because again, when it's just this shouting match of being like, you're terrible, fuck off. And I'm like, you're terrible, fuck off. That's, it's not very helpful in terms of how we move forwards. But I guess the uniting thing is that both sides really care about the wellbeing of teenagers and young people, but we're just going about it in ways that feel so different. I don't know, man, it's, it's

scary. Like there's, there's, there's been a definite shift in the last few years of like this becoming a much more contentious issue. It's so, it's so deep and it's so heavy, but I just feel like if we're all very prudish, if you just took the sex element away from it and was like any other subject in life, the only way you're going to learn and feel powerful and empowered in a situation is by having information on it. So just because it's sex, why does that go out the window? It's just giving the information so people can make their own decisions. In my head, an analogy I see of it is like, okay, we're here in England and we're going to stay here. We're

never going to go abroad, we're never going to travel. Let's just pretend the rest of the world isn't happening. That's literally what I feel like these people are doing by not educating. I would love us to all have more curiosity about life in general, but sex and relationships, where like that's not saying you need to go and do things, but being curious about the world around you completely with your analogy, curious about what the rest of the world might be like. That doesn't mean you need to do anything you don't want to do. It's not a checklist you have to complete, but just be knowledgeable and know. I feel

like we touched on so many different subjects today. I was getting so passionate. It was a bit of a roller coaster. It really picked up momentum and I started getting on my Karen High horse about that, but I think it needed to be spoken about. I agree and there is, I have so many more stories of like actually what it's like being in classrooms doing this, so I'm sure that we will touch on this again. I also would love to hear people's wild school sex ed stories because everyone's got like some real mad ones. So do let us know. I'd be really keen to see, not to see, to hear, to read.

I don't know. I want it in me. And I feel like as you're the expert here, where would we find out more information on like sex ed and stuff like that? If we did have a terrible time at school like I did. Can I do something really cheeky? Do it. I'm just going to plug my book. Oh my god, yes.

It came out a few years ago, but I'm really proud of it. It's called Sex Ed, a guide for adults and I wrote it with like us in mind, people who had shit sex ed at school and then entered adulthood and were like what the fuck I don't know anything about this. So it's kind but gives you all of the 101 stuff that you needed to know but might still not know and that's okay and it's beautifully illustrated. It's really fun so yeah if you would like that it's it's all yours you are welcome to it. I have to say I have a copy and it is gorgeous it's amazing it is beautiful although I showed you that that illustration that actually looks like me and my ex oh my god is it a trigger every time you flick pass no because she's fit it was

lovely the illustrator like accidentally drew me sleeping with someone who really, really looks like an ex of mine. That was fun. And she'd never seen your ex? It was just a coincidence? No. And I had to message her after being like, by the way, it really looks like I've orchestrated it so that this happened. And I just need to let you know that that wasn't the case. Just like yeah yeah you're in love with me. So yeah. We'll have to add the link to your book in the show nights and thank you so much for watching, I've really had fun have you?

I have, I mean I feel a bit riled up now because I care about this a lot and so do you but but it's been really fun talking. And as always, we wanna hear your thoughts. Our email is hello at ins and outs pod.com. So let us know what you think about this episode. Give us some weird little sex ed stories, please. Yeah, sex ed stories, any fun sex stories, because you know I wanna hear those ones. And until next time, this has been the ins and outs.

We will see you soon. Mwah. Bye. Bye. Bye.