The Ins & Outs - Roses, kitchen islands and fussy eaters

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

In this episode we talk unfurling from winter, covering wildflower meadows, the best driveway materials for rural properties and the rules of symmetry in kitchen island design.Jojo seeks advice on managing fussy eaters and shares her guide to stone flooring for entryways, while Polly advocates for high-quality garden furniture and reveals her latest home-waxing adventures.This week’s episode is sponsored by our wonderful friends at Oka, who have just launched their new garden collection. Listeners can use the code okagarden15 for 15% off their purchase. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Green, the colour of you see, I've been waiting for you, waiting for you, waiting for... Hello, Innes and Outies, and welcome back to the Inns and Outs with myself, Jojo Bar. And myself, Polly Wilkinson. On today's episode, we are talking unfurling. Polly and I have a punch up over wildflowers. We're talking symmetry and proportion with kitchen islands, driveway materials, digging up roses, naked swinging, and garden furniture. And speaking of garden furniture, this week, we are sponsored by

are wonderful friends at Oka. And they have just launched their new garden collection. And Jojo, let me tell you it is a site for sore eyes. So if you have been mentally planning the furniture for your garden for the summer, and we're going to talk a little bit about that in this episode, then go and have a look at the new collection by Oka because, if I may, the Rometto collection, which is this beautiful, it's kind of a bronzy, ebony brown.

and it's actually very similar in colour to my greenhouse, which I'm obsessed with, is stunning, super elegant metal, but here's the trick. Really lightweight. I've got the little coffee side table, and it looks really sturdy and heavy, but actually super lightweight, so you can move it around because there's something about garden furniture where sometimes you do actually want to move it and just have like a spontaneous moment in the sun in the evening. It is so beautiful and playful and elegant and robust.

I'm an enormous fan. Please go and have a look. You can use the code Oka Garden 15 for 15% off and prepare to drool because my goodness is one's sexy little garden collection. I want the Shawwell Garden loungers. Just two of those, please. I knew you would.

I love a lounger. I love a little garden lounger I do. They're just so, oh, it's class. They're just class. Well done, Oka. Beautiful collection. Bravo. Bravo.

10 out of 10. Right, let's get into it. Good morning to you. How are you on this fine day? I tell you what, it is a beauty out there, isn't it? Isn't it, Gorge? Suddenly life feels worth living again, doesn't it? It does.

People care about their gardens. Well, people just care about general life. I mean, it's like, it's just been so depressing. It has. I'm sorry, it's just really dragged. This first quarter of the year has been a real bitch, doesn't you? We're in it now, though. We're in it.

Actually, you know what? There's, I follow this amazing Scottish witch on TikTok. She's amazing. And she talks about this time as a time of unfurling. So the winter has been a time of kind of sleep and rest and listening. We're unfurling, baby. We are unfurling. I mean, that's just, you don't need a witch to tell you that.

That is just, that's pure fact. That's just nature, isn't it? We as humans just busy, busy ourselves from like, you know, the first of Jan, when, in fact, we should be hibernating. I mean, I told you, if I was Prime Minister, I would give us all an extra hour in bed every morning. Work would start a tent. Would you? Yeah, I would. I don't think people should be getting up in the dark and then coming home in the dark.

It's not healthy for us. I'd do away with the clock change. I'd just keep it on summertime the whole time. Silly question, what would happen if you just didn't keep flipping the clocks back and forth? You just have dark. It would be darker in the mornings, wouldn't they put lighter in the evenings. We've almost tried to cheat that to try and get people out of bed and thinking, it's okay that you're actually out when it's not.

We're not following nature's rhythm, are we? I mean... Do you know who does follow nature's rhythm? Go on. My chickens. Do they really? Yeah, they're laying eggs again. I've got like one a day.

I've got eight chickens. So you'd think, wow, that's a lot of eggs. Through the winter, just one solo egg per day was gathered out of eight of them. Pathetic. Pathetic. Pathetic. I think it was actually just Miss Wilmot and I think the rest have given up. But now, five or six a day.

Can't move for an egg, Jojo. Oh, they can't move for an egg, Jojo. good. So you're having scramble every day. Bit of scramble. What I made this weekend, oh my God, absolutely banging. I made rhubarb and custard panacotta. Oh, yeah. Absolutely love it. Post last week's episode, did you see that I did a little... Because you were like anti-the gravel around veg beds.

I mean, all my... I'm not anti-gravel. It was a bit of... You were like, you don't need to do that. I said I'm anti-lawn around veg beds. Oh yeah, no. But I mean, it just looks... No, I've just got this whole...

Pinterest mood board of these just totally idyllic veg beds like, you know, just did you see the one I posted yesterday with all the little chickens running around. With the chicken run, yes I did. Funnily enough, I've actually, have you got a pinned. I've actually just been looking into a chicken run. I think I'm going to fashion some kind of like polytunnel-esque. You know, when you had toddlers, you had one of those, maybe you did pop-up tubes. Yeah, I love them. They love them. I'm going to look for something like that, but for the chickens. Yeah, exactly like that. I mean, it's just absolute goals that. Absolutely goals. I've really excitingly had a couple of, I definitely didn't cover this last week. We've briefly touched on it, but I've had two experts around to talk to me about the bees and the wildflower meadow. I feel like you're cheating on me. Tell me more. Oh, Polly, I'm going to know so much more than you know. You're going to hate me for it. You think I don't know about wildflower me and bees. I'm about to come at you with a lot more than you know because I'm about to own them, bitch. You can sit there and just be little jelly pants that you don't have your wildflower meadow. Just, rain-it-in. Might specify them in nearly every project, but go ahead, pal.

Tell me more. Do you specify them in every project? We put wildflower meadows in so many of our projects. Even smallest urban gardens have wildflowers sections in them now. I'm going to go up and visit Knights Bees, with the lovely Martin, who we've picked out a spot for our bees. We're going to have two hives. And it's just been such a joy to learn about, just to learn about them and about where they go, what they do, how they live, what goes on in the winter, the fact that you can lose a colony, which is just devastating.

Apparently it's really, it's like losing, literally like losing children, it's really hard. But I'm very, very excited. We are literally buzzing about this. Hey, a bit of a bit of a bit. And then the wildflower, I just, so I've been sent my little list, which I thought you'd like to nerd out. one actually of what's going to go in there. Go on then. So oxy daisies, what have I gotten here? Red clover, meadow buttercup, common napweed, devil's scabia, self-heel, greater birdsfoot treel. Oh, there's lots in here. Ragged Robin, that's a nice one. Meadow, Crainsbill. Yeah.

And then there's all the lovely grasses, which you'd so good. I mean, it's, just watch out, because the oxide daisy does take over. It's annoying. They do look lovely, don't they? They're banging, but they are a thug, so they are one of the ones which often, a thug. Without intervention, they can take over a wild flamidae, so there's a bit of that. Do you know what's a bit of fun, though? You might not do this because I appreciate yours is in a field, but what we'll often do is exactly the mix you've done,

but then we'll put in a few perennials, like plug plants and some sort of more curated things, some scabious and things like, oh, yum, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be fun. But because it's obviously not a small field, he's come up with this brilliant idea to sort of lay this turf around the edge and then scatter the seeds sort of in the layer two and then you sort of let it just spread over the... I mean, otherwise it would be a massive job.

There's so many different ways to do it. You could literally obviously scarify the entire field and chuck a load of seeds down, but that's just going to be... It's obviously nothing's going to really happen. Bird food. But it's also nothing's hugely going to happen this year. But with this turf, which is amazing,

it's literally a role of turf with all the wildflower in it. Oh, like meadow mat. It's absolutely brilliant stuff, but it's obviously that much more expensive. It's 50p versus 15%. That costs a lot more. So in smaller urban spaces where it's like maybe we're just doing a circle or a square or whatever, we'll often just do the meadow map because it's down and it's in. I actually did it in my old house briefly in that circle where I laid the mat. It's really fun

because that way you do get a Wafla Meadow year one. Yeah, you can do. The seed is obviously on larger spaces or big fields. Yeah. I mean I'm actually, I'm going to have to give them a shout up because they've just been so utterly incredible. They're called Jubilee Seeds that we're working with who have done some incredible jobs and he's been just, oh, he's such good fun as well, like really, really good fun. So what have you been up to, my love? I've been working, Jojo. I've just worked like a little, little Trojan horse, and then I go to bed.

And then I do some more work. Sorry, guys, that's super exciting, isn't it? But that's where we are in, like, it's spring is the busy season. I have watched an excellent TV show. Oh, go on then. The other Bennett's sister. Okay. Tell me.

It's so good. It's, um. I feel like you're very good at picking out these sort of these TV things. Although I don't think we've shared the same taste in TV. It's one of my passions. Yeah. It's so good. You know, the sisters in Pride and Prejudice.

Yes. It's based on the fifth sister who is sort of described as the ugly duckling or the one that's sort of on the shelf. And it's so far there's going to be five episodes. I'm desperate for more half an hour episodes about her life. But it's like a warm, if you like pride and prejudice and sensibility and all of those sort of like lovely period, And Bridgeton, you're going to love it.

It's like a warm, cosy blanket of period drama deliciousness. Right. Yummy. It's on the BBC. Not for me then. No, not for you. No, I don't like, I love the old stuff. Like I love sense and sensibility, love pride and prejudice.

But I find the new remakes. I know like people are probably like, oh my God, Bridgeton's amazing. But I'm not going to say what I actually think. I just, it's just not for me. I know. Try this. I will. It's not, it's not Bridgetton because it's not a modern twist.

It's just a period drama. great. Okay, I'll give it a go on your reco. Bloody watch it. Can I have a quick moan please about my kids' sec? I'd love it if you would. So why are kids so fucking fussy? One minute, it's like, Mommy, I love chicken curry, so you give them chicken curry, it's the best thing I've ever

tasted in their entire life. Oh wow. Your kids eat moist food. And then they want it every single day, every day, they want chicken and curry every day. And then you give it to them a few times and then it's suddenly, I hate chicken curry. You put it in front of them. I hate it. exactly the same chicken car I've ever fed them.

It goes from like, I love it. It's my favourite thing in the whole world. I hate it. Using the actual word. Like, for a start, you don't hate anything. We don't hate stuff. But why do that, how can they go from loving something to hating it so quickly? Is that just a child's thing?

And then they literally won't touch it. And suddenly they've just both gone so fussy about the most obscure things. Like, like... Are we talking food? Plymintines. Food. Just food. Oh, okay.

I've really. struggle with kids food. I don't know what to. It's like, don't like chicken nuggets. Don't like, I just want, they want like tomato ketchup on pasta. I mean, I even struggle to force them to eat pesto on pasta. And I'm only doing that because it's green. I don't even know it's good. Do you, are you still in the two dinner realm where you cook their food and then your food? Yes. Well, sometimes we don't. But the problem is that if we cook what we want to eat and we're sitting with them, then they don't want to eat it. Rocky's decided she doesn't like chicken. She doesn't want chicken. So, I, I,

I just, I don't, I'm really struggling. So if anyone's got any tips on, I don't know, good cookbooks for fussy-ass kids, then I'd really appreciate any advice because it's exhausting. I cannot stand throwing food away. It's like, I find it heartbreaking. I hate it. And the amount of food that just gets scraped into the bin, obviously after I've had my good go on it and then I don't feel like my end in it

because I've eaten like 12 chicken nuggets. Not quite like a leftover fish finger is there. I find when you do fish fingers for the kids, you always go to do a bonus one for yourself, I think that's important. No, don't do fish. No, no, fish fingers. No, fish fingers. I'm sorry.

No, I don't know what's happened. They've just suddenly turned super fussy. And I don't know if that's a thing, but it's not good. Of course it's a thing. It's definitely a thing. They just take it in turns to like throw tricky things at you. Yeah. And then it's like, no, I'm not hungry.

I'm not hungry. I'm finished. But can I have a dessert and a chocolate and a bag of grisps and a yogurt? Can I have 12 yoguets? 12 yoguets? Literally. They're getting through actamal at a moment. They really love actamal.

I'm like, oh, I'm sure there's some goodness and then actamel isn't there? But then someone will probably tell you. Actimal is probably really bad for kids. Any advice there would be much appreciated. We've got nothing for you, pal. No, okay. Well, should we make ourselves useful?

Let's. Do you know what I might just ask that's useful, Paul? Doesn't it feel like because we've suddenly had this amazing shift in weather we've just had this glorious week of sunshine? I feel like you kind of need to tell us what we should be doing in the garden. Should we be mowing our lawns now? Mm, we'll get into it more next week when we turn into April. Okay.

But there are a few bits, which I think are really important to do now. Okay. And actually I was talking about this on my substack the other day. Number one, order some furniture. If you want garden furniture, for God's sake, order it now. I can't stand it when everyone goes in May, they start buying it. And they're like, I couldn't get what I wanted because it's not going to be here until October. So we just bought this tap from X, Y or Z.

And you're like, garden furniture. needs to be bought with the same intention as an interior furniture, which is sort of deliberately. I am so happy that I didn't jump and buy garden furniture because obviously the whole garden's going to be covered in skips and lorries. But I'm glad I waited because I don't know what it's, I can't envisage what the furniture is going to look like yet. I think I'm going to go metal. For you, don't go buying your furniture until the garden is done. The only thing I bought was two of those lovely fan back chairs that are really hard to get out of. You know, the really low ones that once you're in, you're not coming out any time.

time soon. Arandack chairs. I love those. They're so nice, aren't they? With a little fire pits. I think we'll probably just stick those down in the paddock when the work's being done. And that will become like the garden. Those are the sort of thing we'd put in by sort of a lake or a pond, a swimming pond sort of thing.

You know, that's just leaning back because you can have a glass of wine on the arm. That's it. We have our morning coffee on them. But that's one of the number one things I think at the moment, actually, having a bit of a whinge about this because I think there is often. And Juju, it must be really interesting because it's sort of the opposite of yours, I think. I think people agonize over buying, for example, it's a lot of sofa or a dining table inside.

Whereas outside there is this approach of kind of like, oh, that would do. We just grabbed it in the sale on X, Y, Z. And you're just like, your garden furniture is the make or break. It is the make or break for us of our photo shoots, whether it's nice furniture or bad furniture. Because bad furniture in a beautiful garden does not make for a good photo. Also, I have to say, having bought shit cheap furniture before for the garden, it literally lasts two, three years. And then it looks like shit. So I wasn't going to make this, it rots.

It literally rots. The back, you know, with this sort of stickbacks on those dining chairs, they've all just like fallen off. They just look, it looks like an absolute dog's dinner. So I'm going to wait. Buy twice with garden furniture. That's the thing. Same with foot savers. And it's an investment, but so is interior furniture.

It is. But it's the way it's often treated a bit like an afterthought of like, oh, we just grabbed it. And you're just like, why would you not treat it with the same reverence as inside in terms of it? I presume you want your outside to look nice too. And obviously, you're not going to do a feel. photo shoot in your garden so it's not about that but it's more about like if you care about aesthetics and design then your outside furniture is just as important as your inside yeah i'm i've decided i'd almost rather just like sit on a log until i can actually afford to buy some nice

garden furniture now so i'm doing as i'm told poll i do listen to you occasionally good good and obviously if you're in the market and jojo i know you were talking about metal furniture go and have a look at oka's new range because as i said at the beginning the rometto i think is a really beautiful and timeless piece. I think it would work very well in courtyards, like as a sort of chic courtyard moment, but I also think it would work really well, frankly, everywhere. There's something about the warm bronze that I think will sit really nicely and it's not going to show the dirt. It's giving me sort of Italian, sort of Italian hillside vibes, don't you think? Yeah, it's sort of South of France, Italian, it's Mediterranean but Mediterranean elevated chic.

Oh God, listen to that. Yeah. Does it get better? I'm Pollyanna Wilkinson and I endorse this product. I literally like, could you promote it any harder? Yeah, and that's how good it is. I really like it. You know what I'm like about bronze in the garden? I know.

It's just my fave. It is. And even, well, sorry, I could keep going on, but the collect garden dining table is blah, well, well, like, delicious. We'll actually get into this because one of the questions is about furniture. So we'll get into it. Oh, the other thing, everyone should do jet washing. Sorry, to answer your question.

The other thing, which is just like, it's peak jet wash season. Jetwash, because everything's all slimy, isn't it? It's all slimy. and a bit glula. Yeah, it's not about taking the soul out of anything. So if you've got lovely, oldy, worldly Yorkstone, don't go like spraying the life out of that. And obviously be very careful because different surfaces

can withstand different pressures. But, you know, get rid of the green. Okay. Let's get on inside. Okay. Jojo, might I ask you? You might. You can ask me anything.

We have an iny here who'd like some advice on stone flooring for a small entryway. It's a high traffic area. Oh. And she'd like it to see. buttered toast wood, which if you're not familiar, is Jojo's beautiful flooring with chauncese in a sort of buff tone. You've got buttered toast, haven't you, in your house? I've buttered toast in my bedroom.

It is absolutely beautiful. Isn't it all? So you want to obviously, to go with butter toast, which as Polly so beautifully introduced is our wood flooring range with chauencies. You can contact them for samples and castings. You want something that's going to be a similar tone. But when I say a similar tone, it doesn't necessarily need to be a buff limestone or a buff, you know, porcelain. It can still have a bit of grey, but that grey wants to be warm in tone. So that the two, you've sort of got that lovely transition across your thresholds from one room to the next.

Because you're saying it's a high traffic hallway, you've got a few options to consider. I wouldn't go with anything like marble because it can scratch. It's a bit softer. But limestone is a beautiful choice and works really well in an entryway. It's got a lovely natural warmth to it. I would always suggest a honed rather than a polished finish. So it feels less sort of slippery. And it actually feels softer underfoot, as you will agree with, Paul, I'm sure.

And a tumbled, lovely tumbled edge. So it still feels quite sort of natural. Soft. Obviously, it's got to be sealed. Limestone has to be sealed and don't just, you know, if you want to keep up maintenance on it, especially in high traffic, you will need to seal it every sort of couple of years. If you start to sort of see it wearing out in certain places.

You can then go with tumour. humbled or honed travertine. I don't love it as much, but it's still practical. It's a preference, but I would probably go limestone first. Slate is probably the most practical because it's the most hard wearing. It's really tough. And obviously because it's slate, it's slightly more, that's sort of like more grey. So it will hide more dirt. So obviously limestone can be quite light. If you go to the limestone that's too light buff, you're going to see dirt and mud and muddy footprints and things. If you're tackling the kids to take their boots off as you're running in the door. But obviously it's just got to be, well, exactly. I bet you can see it,

can't you? So, and even actually, even on light, very light, grained. Yeah, and even on very light limestone, if you've got dark hair like me, if a dark hair falls on a light piece of limestone or porcelain, you can literally see it lying on the floor. So you might want to consider going something a bit more like a slate. Have a look. And it might seem like slate, you sort of think of as black. It doesn't necessarily need to be black. It can be a lovely warm grey. And then, of course, you can go, it also depends on the buildup. So if you've got a decent buildup between the floors, then go with something like limestone or slate. But if you don't have the build up and you need to actually go with something quite thin, porcelain, obviously, it can mimic stone.

There's some amazing porcelains around. Obviously, it depends on budget as well, because porcelain can be a lot more affordable than limestone. So a few practical tips to consider. Keep the format large, actually, as well. That's another little tip for you. If it's a very small entry hall, go with a larger format because it will make the space feel larger. Oh, good tip. Oh, and also use a consistent grout color, which poll you know, all of the very small. about because we had a bit of a grout drama, didn't we? Don't get me started on grout. The grout wants to be a pretty close match to the flooring so that it feels very, you know, you don't want to like a zigzag of grout, nothing worse.

Do you know what I was thinking about you, Joje, because I would say about once a week, people ask me how I've kept my grout clean in the kitchen. And I think the answer is like, there's no magic thing there. I just chose quite a beigey grout. I did not put a white grout in, and therefore it doesn't really show the dirt. So the biggest mistake you can make is white grout, right? Yeah, it's just not a good look at all. I really don't like when you have, even when people do white metro tiles,

then they use like a grey grout. Don't like it. Other way around, white tiles with like a grey grout looks terrible. And then sort of grey tiles with white grout. You just don't want it. The grout is meant to sort of pull the stone together. It's meant to create a cohesive look. Yeah.

The grout isn't something you're wanting to like draw attention to. No, otherwise it creates a patchwork. It's like, you don't want to see the VPL. Oh, no, baby. No, baby. No. It's the thong. of the paving world.

Yes. Yes. Okay, right. I'm running out into the garden. Good. Did you enjoy your naked gardening, by the way, naked gardening day?

Did you get out there in your thong? It's not been yet. It's not being yet. You know, it's not warm enough, but I think we've discussed the fact that I'm not going to naked garden. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right then.

So Colin will be out there, then, will he? You're the naked one. Swinging it around. You're the one that likes to, like, wander around naked, don't you? Colin will be swimming. Winging his chopper around the garden? He 100% would never.

Is he not? Brad probably would. Brad would be winking. No way in hell. Winking at it. Chopping his logs out there, topless, swinging his axe. I don't think that you should be naked with an axe.

I think that's asking for trouble. You'll trope the wrong log, Jo-Shay. There's definitely some Instagram accounts out there that we might happen to fall upon occasionally, don't we, Polly and share with each other of certain men doing things in the garden. I appreciated the gyrating, one.

That one was fun. Thank you for that one. Occasionally, Polly, and I find these ridiculous videos, I think half of them are AI, but there's literally like a man doing like a one-handed, like push up and sort of grunting or he's sort of doing some gardening job. With some flowers in the background. It doesn't half please me, I tell you, it doesn't make me smile. So I share it with Polly.

Oh. Raises his smile. It does make a smile. All that sweat and hair. You listen. Just lost our 4% male follower. Right. Now, outies, this one's for you.

Best, low cost, low maintenance, driveway materials for a rural property. Please, Polly. There's been quite a few driveway questions. There was another similar one which was saying natural stone, porcelain or resin for a driveway. And I nearly fell off my chair at the thought of porcelain in a driveway. Right. So to answer this question, number one, to segue,

please don't use porcelain on your drive. way. Oh God, just don't do it. No. Just no. Why would you? I'm going to leave that one there. Why do you pause? Indeed. We've had people ask before and I'm just like, what are you doing? You know that we've, we literally, it's funny that so many people have asked this question because this is a big topic for us because we're having our driveway done. And we don't, we're in this sort of like, our neighbour who we share the drive is like, tarmac. Let's just do tarmac. And we're like, I don't want tarmac. Thanks very much. I shut up my house. No, I don't want tarmac. It's really simple, but people don't like the answer. So for me, my favourite. it's surface for a driveway is gravel. And the reason is, and I don't mean, I hate gravel where you're

driving over Brighton Beach and it moves loads and it's a bloody nightmare. No one wants that. With gravel for a driveway, for one thing you want to get your size right, so it needs to be about 20 mil, so you're not going to track it through your treads of your feet into the house. So if you go with a small one, and this is the mistake a lot of people make getting that kind of like little pea gravel. Nothing worse. It gets stuck in your trainers or your biker boots. Exactly. It's too small. So you need the 20 mill. And also we'll often use the stabilisation grids, which like that honeycomb. You don't have to, but we'll often use that because that keeps the gravel largely in place. But the reason I like it, number one, for suds, so for drainage, it's obviously completely permeable. So you're not creating a hard surface that water needs to run off. So drainage is solved. Number two, it's inexpensive. Number three, it's great as a sort of security device in terms of you can hear cars, you can hear people. So from a sort of burglary and sort of house protection, I think it's nice. And it's sort of, if you can hear people coming. Three, I just think it has the most natural aesthetic,

particularly this question was about a rural one. Why would you do anything else? Okay, yeah, that's fair one. It's sort of particularly for large spaces. Would it actually be cheaper than so doing like a tarmac? It's cheaper than doing say a tarmac. And then would you just border the edges in like a nice cobble or something? Exactly, Jojo.

So that is how you can make it feel elevated and it depends on your budget. So when we are doing it in the countryside for sort of a really beautiful, I don't know, for an estate or for a long driveway, we'll always specify cobbles as the ideal. So maybe like a two border run of a lovely stable yard cobble, like a Yorkstone or a limestone stable yard cobble. Beautiful. That can add up quite quickly if you've got a really long driveway.

So if it's short, what we love to do is that the threshold to the entrance of the drive, we would do as a threshold of cobbles, say like five, seven or nine rows as a threshold that you drive over. And then it moves into the gravel with cobbles down the side. And then maybe we would do another threshold sort of as you arrive, where you're going to park and then surround it there. That's lovely, but that does add up if it's a big one. Or you can edge it with brick.

You can edge it just with a steel edge as well, if need be, and then plant the edges. And that can be really soft as well. So question. But that would be my preference. Questions, questions. What if you have a very, very large willow tree that hangs over the driveway, which drops a lot?

It's annoying, but you're just going to have to leaf blow it. And you can leaf blow, silly question, you can leaf blow over gravel, can you? You can. Number one, if you've got a sort of more compacted gravel, number two, if you've got it on a stabilisation grid, I appreciate you're still going to get some gubbins in the gravel. But what's the alternative? You've got block pavers, which I will try and avoid at all costs because I think they're quite unattractive, by and large, they have their place in urban settings sometimes,

and you can, there are block pavers and there are block pavers. You know, the cop, like when you do those sort of lovely cobbles. Look, if you could do a whole driver and cobbles. Is it really expensive? It's beautiful. It's like a stable yard vibe. And in a small garden, you can do that and hopefully it won't cost very much. But it is one of the most premium options.

As you know inside Jojo, small format equals more labour. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So in central London, we might do a cobble. We might do a beautiful Yorkstone. You know, like if you think about the London streets, you'll often see a nice mixed format, lovely old Yorkstone, paving as a drive. It's beautiful.

Again, quite premium. we do on occasion do resin we'll do resin where maybe it's a like there's there's sometimes when you cannot use gravel because you're on a tricky slope undulating driveway for example where gravel is just going to migrate and just sort of fall onto the road and there's just no way you're going to be able to fight it so then you know resin is permeable so but equally it's got plastics in it so it's not the one I'd reach for but it has its place okay so by and large we would do really lovely paving a Yorkstone or similar or a very dark limestone or we would do bricks or we've done clay pavers before so no you've got loads of choices but my favourite is gravel okay wonderful thanks paul

you know yeah sometimes it doesn't have to be clever yeah okay all right my love it's chic i think it's how you edge it okay it's what you do with it that counts jojo isn't it you know oh it's all about what you do with it right joe we can't actually move into the kitchen. And the question is, does an island always have to sit symmetrically in a kitchen? Absolutely not. No, Polly. It doesn't. Tell me more. Well, proportion, and I feel like I'm starting to help on about this quite a lot. Proportion is more important than symmetry. So some of the most interesting functional kitchens break that rule entirely. So the idea that an island must sit perfectly centered is really just a convention rather than a design rule and slavishly following it can actually work

against you in terms of how the kitchen functions for you sort of day to day. So when asymmetry works brilliantly, so if your kitchen runs along, say, one wall more than the other, positioning the island closer to one side can create more of a generous circulation route on the primary traffic side, so between the island and the cooking zone, while a narrower gap on. on the other side still works perfectly for accessing storage or drinks stations. But if you think about it, there's a rule of thumb with how much space you need to migrate around an island. So you have to have a metre is the ideal. Anything sort of less than 90 centimetres is a no way where you are accessing things like your dishwasher or your oven.

So you want really ideally a metre up to sort of at 120's ideal, perfect. But it's okay if you're then transitioning down the side and like, you know, you have just got storage cupboards. It doesn't matter so much that it's down to sort of 90. So rather than symmetry, what you really need to think about is clearance. You want a minimum of about 90 centimetres on any side that people walk past regularly, but ideally a metre to 1.2 on the cooking side where you'll be opening your oven doors, moving around with hot pans, etc. So visually, if you're worried that it's going to look odd,

a strong overhead element like a run of pendants or a ceiling detail could be centred on the island rather than the room, which will anchor it beautifully and makes the symmetry feel entirely intentional rather than accidental. So it's a little bit of, I'd say more trust your layout over convention, I'd say, because when you're planning your layout, I think the mistake that some people make

is they can go too small sometimes on the island. And actually, I think they think an island needs to sit a certain way. And in doing so, you create a weird-shaped square island, and actually, I'd much rather you have a useful, big island that fills the space. So, yeah. It's interesting.

I find symmetry comes up a lot in design. And actually a lot of our clients are like, I would like a symmetrical garden and we spend a lot of time going, yeah, no. Like that symmetry is actually not the solution here. Very rarely do we do symmetrical gardens. Yeah.

And same with houses. Houses are very rarely symmetrical in terms of in their interiors, are they? No, and actually, I don't think necessarily. There's something lovely about walking. into a, when you walk up to say a Georgian manor house and you have complete symmetry and you walk through the door and everything with it, there is something quite grand and lovely about it. But actually when you're living in a home like that, I actually think it's nice to find

little oddities and mismatch, you know, when you have alcoes aren't the same size. I get people really panicking sometimes that their fireplace sits sort of in one third across the room, a wall. And they're like, what do I do? How do I put joinery on either side of that fireplace? if it's sort of two-thirds bigger on one side. And I said, well, just lean into it. Just see, you can still create symmetry on either side of the fireplace and then have something else to the right side to almost then knock the symmetry out and actually creates balance.

Isn't it? Rather than symmetry. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's actually quite, I think it's nice to have asymmetry actually. This is why that three works more than, I think I'm more of the three rule. Go with three things rather than two. Okay.

Popping back out to the garden for another little one. Would you, Polymisch. mix rose shrubs in a long border, thinking two Olivia Rose Austens and one Emily Bronte, 15 metre border. And actually, do you know what? I'm going to tag this one on because they relate to each other. What to do with inherited roses in all different colours? Don't love them, but feel bad.

I bet there are so many people that feel bad about I've got roses outside that. I'm like, ugh, but I just can't bring myself to get rid of them. I find that really unusual in terms of, I go to a lot of advice sessions where we'll talk about that and they'll be like, oh, the lady before love. I love orange roses, so I've got these orange roses and I hate them and I don't want to keep them. I'm just like, we'll get rid of them. Is there somewhere that you can give them? Can you give them to people? Yes, well, this is the thing. I think life is too short to live with plants that you hate of small ones.

I'm talking small ones. I'm not talking about like enormous trees. So if there are roses in your garden that you've inherited that you hate, why on earth would you keep them? They dig them up and give them to someone else, for God's sake. I just, I think there's roses and there's roses and a lot of people hate roses. Roses get a bad rap. And it's because people are thinking about those like Victorian vibe, hideous sort of beds of ugly-ass colours with loads of bare earth and sort of mangy old roses that haven't been pruned nicely

and they just look like these sort of thorny old minging stem. Do you know why I think it is? It's because roses are so hardy and they keep coming back year on year. You know that essentially you're going to dig something up and throw it away that is actually still living. Whereas you don't feel bad about something that's died and it's dead because it's dead. Whereas because it keeps coming back. you almost think, oh my God, it's going to bloom in a minute. And it's like, when you do get any

rose, even if you don't particularly like the colour, there's still something quite beautiful about it, isn't there? I get that. Well, you've got two choices. If you feel guilty of it, either dig it up and give it to someone else, or you could work with it. If you hate it, then maybe it's about your colour's not working with it and you could design a colour scheme around it, but that's doing quite a lot of work for something you don't like. So I would personally gift the rose to someone else. Or, you know, you can graft it. Give it. For God's sake, no, I'm not going to be romantic about this. I think roses can, you need to love them because otherwise it's something that you're like,

every single year, and that seems a great shame. But to answer the first question, which is, would I mix rose shrubs in a long border? Hell yes, I would. And hell, yes, we do all the time. The two that the questioner has asked about, Olivia Rose Austin, one of my favorite roses of all time, Jojo, I suspect you'd love it. It is pale pink, roughly. one of the ones that I would say is most akin to a peony.

Oh, lovely. It's one that I use when people say they want peonies and then I explain that it's better if we use a very similar looking rose that will flower all summer as opposed to for two weeks. Okay. So Olivia Rose. And she also said Emily Bronte, which is a kind of pale blush, like a whitey pale pink.

Well, they sound like heaven together. They are heaven together. 100%. take your gold star and your 10 out of 10 and go to the front of the class because yes, I would mix those. And I love using a mix of roses in a border. I'd probably not do more than two or three different ones. And what am I going to say?

Repeat them. So what I don't want is like a fruit salad of roses. Choose a couple. Repeat them. Okay. Make sure that they turn up more than once. I think where roses look a bit weird is where you've just got one once. And you're like, okay, someone's been to the garden centre.

Right, okay. Whereas, you know, if it's two, three, four, five of them, it sort of looks intentional. Okay. Thank you for you for that. But well done you, gold star. Well done. Well done. You win teachers' pet of the week.

There's a new thing we should do, JoJo. Teach's pet. You should, shouldn't we? And on that, what's in and what's out? These get harder, by the way, guys. I have to tell you, I don't know what it is. We really suddenly hit this every week with a recording. And I'm like, probably not like, shit, I haven't gotten in.

Shit, haven't gotten in. I've gotten in, but it might be an out. It's something I wanted to discuss with you. We can share. I was going out the other night and I wanted to put on some eye shadow. And I don't know about you. I've not had a lesson in makeup in years. Probably not since I went to a Mac counter age 18.

And since then, other than the odd TikTok tutorial, I was just sort of winging it. And I went to put on quite a nice sort of smoky brown eye. And my face has changed so much from when I learned to do makeup. And we've talked about the hooded eyes that I did it. And I ended up looking like I'd been punched in the face on both eyes with these dark brown. And I took it all off and I just ended up whussing out and not wearing any eye shadow. So for me, is it an in, is it an out? I don't know.

It's just something I want to discuss with you. I can't do my eye shadow like my aging eyes. It's so funny. I feel this so much. I feel like a really simple. Actually, this is a fun tip. So Lizzie, my lovely Lizzie, design director at House 9, she always just has a very simple, almost like a sort of brown on her eye shadow when she sort of gets done up, when she's going out, she's going to a nice meeting. And all she uses is her blusher. So say she was using like a hula benefit blusher, she'd rub that on her eyelid. And that is what would just suddenly elevate her eyes and make it look lovely. And I tried it. And it does because it's just essentially you're just blending. It looks really good and a tiny bit of eye eyeliner. I so like you, Paul, I can't wear. I used to love wearing some eyeshadow and I do the shading thing. When I put it on, I feel a bit overdone.

I feel a little bit like I, yeah, it just feels it doesn't work. And I don't know whether it's exactly like you say. I mean, I look at my face and my face has definitely changed shape. And I think even my eyelids. And when I try and even do a flick, it just goes like, I just haven't got the eyes for a flick. It doesn't work for me. Some people look great.

It just looks terrible on me. So I actually realise the older I get, the less is more. Less is more. I'd actually just think a really, really great flick of mascara with a little bit of eyeliner if I need it. But otherwise, I just, I think I look better without it. Where would we sort this out? Because you know how we got our colours done?

And I think that really changed my perspective on things. I want to do the same, but with makeup. I don't really just want to walk into the Benthol's Centre and have some 19-year-old muck around with my face. I want to go and learn from someone who's actually like, this is what you do, you know, with more hooded eyes, with sort of crapeier skin or at this age, not as like a lovely dewy-faced 19-year-old

where you can basically do anything that looks amazing. Is that just a makeup counter? It's just, you know, you're rolling the dice on who's going to do your face on that day. All I know is don't go to Mac because you'll come out looking like a clown. I've done that before and I'm like, well, that's great. Now I have to go shopping looking like this. It's almost like, Oh my God, I've got a tester doll in front of me.

Let's just see what this pink eyeshadow looks like. Well, that's the thing. I don't really want to go to a makeup counter. I'd rather go to someone who does makeup. Agreed. Maybe it's an older. I don't know. I need an older.

In ease and outies, let us know. You guys are a font of knowledge. Also, while I'm at it, thank you so much for all your advice on moving. Everyone said move. Okay. I have gone in. Yeah. After this podcast, I'm driving down to Somerset to see a very good friend of mine, Bella,

from Kramer and Bell and Lottie from Mrs. just written her book and I'm going to stay with those girls and we're having a bit of a night and when I get down there Bella and I are having a microneedling session at her house she's got someone coming around to do microneedling and I was like oh my god can she do mine as well because I would absolutely love what's microneedling it's where they use this like a demi pen where they sort of just almost puncture your face and then it rejuvenates and again it's collagen and all that boosting stuff but I don't have anyone around me around I would much rather somebody come to my, I don't want to walk, I don't want to have to drive somewhere, park my car,

walk into a, into a boot place to get someone puncture my face to, and then have to walk out looking like an extra from Star Trek. I want someone to come to my house, please. That's the goals right there. So they can do it in summer. I want someone, I want someone, if anyone's in the Buckinghamshire area that wants to come and poke me full of stuff to make me look youthful, then, I mean, I'm talking like waxing, tanning, if you can just do it all in my house, that would be really great. because I don't find time. I just don't do it otherwise. I just won't do it.

I just don't do it. I don't go to the shops. I don't go and book myself anything. I'm rubbish. I actually just bought a home waxing kit. Oh, but yeah. God, it's just you buy these things and then they just sit in the cupboard day

and they're collecting dust. No, I've been doing it. It's great. What a game changer. Have you done the old legs of Kimbo? I've done that before. You literally sit there with your, you put your legs up in the air like that

and you just have to put hot wax all over your ninnie and then you just, I haven't done that. Have you not done that? Oh my goodness gracious. Oh my goodness gracious me. It takes some real courage that. You have to literally straddle a mirror to see what you're doing.

Bent over. That's confronting in the best of time. It is. But I have to say there's nothing quite like a hot wax down there to just really get it all out. You know? I've got my laser now. Yeah, but you may be by the laser and I bloody never use it, never find the time. Do you not?

Oh God, I do. I think it's brilliant. So the thought was, do the waxing and then obviously do the laser afterwards when the hair's gone, then get the Trier laser on it. Oh, right, is that what you're meant to do? Smooth as an otter. Right.

Smooth as an otter. It's smooth as an otter's pocket. What about out? What's out for you, Jo? It really is all out now is all your winter bedding. Just pack it all away. Put all your winter. Well, wash it all first.

Wash it all get it dry cleaned. Pack it all away. Put it in bags. And just, it's, now we're going. into the lovely light summer bedding, it's such a joy to put summer bedding on. Even just change up with cushion covers, even take the cushion covers off. Have you got something a little bit heavier? Swat them out for some lighter.

Even if they're lighter in colour, there's just something so nice about walking into your bedroom and everything looking quite, you know, fresh. It's really nice. Love that. Yeah, that's going to move over. I've got my... Out with the winter stuff. Oh, God, I've got the best...

I've got my piglet in bed. I've got it the lovely check. And I've got it in a raspberry and I've got it in a green. Yes, maybe very very... venture into green. But I was thinking actually swapping it to like a nice bright yellow or an oatmeal. Yeah, like an ochre. Yeah, lovely.

Would be nice for spring. All that. It really makes a difference. It makes such a difference climbing into a bed that feels, you know, lovely, fresh white sheets or, you know, gorgeous, lovely. Enough. Enough of this. Yes. Enough.

Right. See you next week, you old tart. Bye, you lovely lot. And please go and like, subscribe and share with All and Sundry. We love you very much. We love you. Goodbye. Bye-bye.

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