The Interview - John Fetterman Fears Trump Is Stronger Than Ever

Episode Date: October 26, 2024

The senator discusses the “astonishing” support for the former president in Pennsylvania, his rift with progressives over Israel and his own position in the Democratic Party.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Whatever happens this election, Democrats are going to be in a moment of transformation. The party has been united in defeating former President Donald Trump. But that focus has masked real fissures on the left. And at the intersection of many of them sits John Fetterman. Pennsylvania's junior Democratic senator gained early political fame

as the towering and tattooed mayor of the working class town of Braddock before he was elected Lieutenant Governor of the state in 2018. Four years later, he defeated the Trump-endorsed celebrity doctor Mehmet Oz in a tight Senate race. That despite suffering a stroke

just months before the election. But Fetterman's time in the Senate has been bumpy. On the personal front, his stroke has caused him difficulties with auditory processing, which you might hear a bit in our conversation. He uses an iPad and transcription software to help with his listening comprehension.

He's also been very public about seeking inpatient treatment for depression early in his term. And on the political front, his position in the party has become complicated too. Early on, he branded himself as a progressive champion. He was an advocate of the $15 minimum wage and criminal justice reform. He was endorsed by Bernie Sanders. But over the past two years, he's clashed with both mainstream and progressive members of his party.

He was one of the staunchest advocates of President Biden staying in the race, speaking out against Democratic leaders who were trying to get him to drop out. At the same time, he's been one of the most vocal supporters of Israel's war against Hamas, which has pitted him against progressives, some of whom now feel betrayed by him. We talked about all that and the

dynamics of his crucial state in advance of this election, where he says Trump is now stronger than ever. Here's my conversation with Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman. Senator Fetterman, before we get started, can you explain a little bit of the technology that you use in order to have these kinds of conversations? Well, I mean, it's just like your glasses. If somebody needs those glasses to read something on a page. It doesn't mean you're illiterate. It just means that you need a tool to do that. Or if you need glasses to drive, that doesn't mean you don't know how to drive. It just means that's a tool to allow you to facilitate the process. And this captioning is the same thing.

It just allows me to fully absorb what's being said and allows me to provide a response to make sure that I absolutely know what's been what. You've been very open about your stroke and also about getting treatment for depression early last year. How are you doing with both those things? Well, fantastic. Yeah, honestly, the only lingering issue after that was just about using this captioning. Otherwise, everything else has been back to even better. One of the things that you've hoped for when you had talked about, especially your grappling with mental health, was that you were wanting to de-stigmatize it. Yeah, I do. Because at that point, I thought that it's an important conversation to have that. And if it's not necessarily for yourself, or it's probably someone that you know, somebody that you love, someone that you work with, or whatever. You know, they have those kinds of issues. And at that time, I didn't think

that it was going to reach so many people or penetrate. And I was actually surprised that on a near daily times, people reach out and say, thank you. Actually, I was just at an event last night, and people said, hey, you know, thank you for talking about this. It really was helpful for me. And even times some people reach out and saying, hey, I got help, or that may have saved their lives. And I don't take credit for that, but I will say that that's why I'm continuing to have that conversation. You've gotten a lot of attention recently for some of your positions since joining the Senate last year. Not only your story of personal struggle,

but also your positions politically and your place in the Democratic Party, which has shifted. Why do you no longer define yourself as a progressive? Well, I haven't done that for years and years. And I wanted to take this opportunity to say that that was never new news. You know, even before my election, even earlier than that, I've been, it's like, hey, the label leaved me. I didn't leave it. And

what was originally progressive eight years ago, that was $15 an hour. That is now pro-union and legalizing marijuana and just taking very common sense things. And that actually had been

co-opted by the mainstream. But now, and then it continued to adopt really extreme kinds of views. And that's why I was like, hey, I'm just a Democrat. And then there was a lot of like, well, is that going to be the next mansion or cinema or anything? It's like, no, that's ridiculous. I'm not leaving my party. I just happen to have reasonable views. And I don't know why that's controversial, whether what I've decided to platform about my views on Israel or the border or those kinds of issues. To me, that's just reasonable. And I don't, I'm not offended if somebody else disagrees with me in the party, but I'm incredibly, I guess, disappointed that progressives now are making it more and more about things that are

incredibly hurtful to particularly like the Jewish communities and things. You said just now that progressives have adopted extreme positions which you don't agree with anymore. What would you say those are? You know, like defund the police, those kinds of things like that. That was a gift, a huge gift to the Republicans, and they've weaponized that into in fact, we, you know, Democrats are still getting stick with those kinds of things. And now, you know, just some of these protesting right now. I mean, Colombia, you know, we're all in New York right now and a lot of these views. And now they're openly being supportive of Hamas or they're now calling for the Infitada and these kinds of extreme absurd things. And they are supporting the kinds of regimes that live and imposes the kind of values that are antithetical to the progressive kinds of way that they would live.

I want to talk about your positions on Israel, but I do sort of want to stick with first the idea of where you sit in the party. What do you say to progressives who funded your campaigns initially and supported you and now say that they feel burned by you? Well, that's, thank gosh, that wasn't loaded. Well, it's like, I don't know why they decided to support me. And if they can't follow me because I'm very fully supportive of the police or that I'm fully supportive about Israel and now you choose not to vote for me, that's a choice that you have. But I would find any votes that I've made as a senator that offends or is unauthentical to being a good, strong Democrat, and I would remind any one of those saying we are, you know, my seat is the only reason why it's mathematically possible that we could even retain the majority in this cycle, because we were the only ones that flipped in that cycle.

I want to talk a little bit about your own history and your connection to your state. When did you start having political aspirations? When did you want to become a politician? It's still a point I don't consider myself a politician. Is that true? No, I know that may sound, I'm not trying to avoid using the label. I just think I'm an advocate for certain issues or perspectives or things, and that just happens to be the job that you're in. It wasn't a path or traditional sense. But I don't feel differently, behave differently. When I was a mayor, now that I'm a United States senator, I don't dress differently. I still live in Braddock.

I'm a family guy. I remain a family guy. I haven't really changed as a person. It's interesting that you said you don't see yourself as a politician. What does a politician seem to you when you say that in your head? What is that? That it's a track. You know, everybody's constantly looking for the next job. And it's incredibly cynical and transactional and now dysfunctional. And I've been disappointed on the reality of that part of it.

And it's just also astonishing. And I can't understand why there's people that are willing to spend tens of millions of their own money to try to hold that office. Because then you can get there and be like, look at the glamour. You know, I'm sitting in a 500 square feet apartment, you know, and I'm like, I'm on Grubhub. Hey, what do I have? And watching bad TV on Netflix or whatever. And I like to ask all of my colleagues, well, hey, is there like some kind of secret society or like a social life or something glamorous. Like, no. And even, you know, Romney, I mean, he's incredibly wealthy and he has a nice house, but I read that, yeah, he sits on his nice chair and watches Netflix and eats salmon from his friend and actually puts ketchup on it, which,

so I haven't met that one person that's having that quintessential glamorous life. It's been elusive for me, but it's not one that would even appeal to me. And I think people all think life is like the West Wing or something, you know, kind of where it's snappy dialogue and it's like, whatever. But a lot of it comes down to just really bad performance art. You know, one of the things that I think has been very distinctive about you is that you dress differently. You use language differently. Is that important to you, not changing your demeanor to sort of fit into this idea of this politician that you seem to reject? Yeah.

It would be exhausting to be anything other than that. And let's be practical. I dress like a bum because it's terrible to try to find clothes. I can't find a suit. I truly can't afford custom tailor suits. So it's really just, it's just practical. And it's just like most normal people in Pennsylvania dress like that. And definitely in Western Pennsylvania, people wear shorts through the year. And I do that. Your legs never get cold. Well, yeah, I don't. I don't.

But again, a lot of that comes back to practical. It's just easier in that sense. I'm not making a statement. I want to understand a little bit about how you've been navigating some of the currents in the party. And so I'd like to take you back to some of the biggest moments for Democrats in this very insane presidential cycle. After the Biden-Trump debate, at a moment when other Democrats were turning on Biden for his cognitive decline, you went up against them in private and in public, and you tweeted that you weren't going to join the Democratic vultures. Why did you feel so strongly at the time that the party should have stood behind the president? So I actually didn't see that debate. I was actually flying back from Israel. So I just started seeing some messages about that.

But I really thought that what Joe Biden has done for our nation was remarkable. And, you know, I live through my own personal kind of a crucible of having hundreds of millions of dollars just destroying you, tearing you apart. But he held every line throughout all of that. And I just have nothing but have to respect the strength there. And it may not be traditional kinds of strength, but it's kinds of quiet, dignity kind of strength. And a lot of the important things that he's done while he's been a president, he's been an amazing president. And I'm not saying that as a partisan, I think objectively. And people suddenly decided we got to cut him loose and throw him away.

And to throw away a man and a 50-year career on a debate. And I always believed that he had a path. And it's probably reasonable to think that there may not have the path that come through Georgia or Arizona, but it is going to be the blue wall. And here we are now that the blue wall remains to be the quickest way to just put Trump out. It sounds like you still perhaps regret the fact that Joe Biden is not the candidate. No, no, no.

I don't regret that he's not that. Harris has run a magnificent campaign through this. Things couldn't have possibly gone any better. Truly, truly. But what I've been saying then is, like, I'd like to remind America that this is the only living person that's beat Trump. And that means a lot. And Harris has run an amazing campaign since then, and everything came together. But I've also warned that it's going to continue being very close. So you're now fully behind Harris. You've been campaigning for her.

She is running almost at a tie in your state. You've said that Trump has a special connection with the people of Pennsylvania. A hundred percent. Why? What is it that you see that he appeals to in your state? There's a difference between not understanding, but also acknowledging that it exists. And anybody spends time driving around

and you can see the intensity, it's astonishing. I was doing an event in Indiana County, very, very red. And there was a superstore of Trump stuff. And it was 100 feet long. And it was dozens of t-shirts and hats and bumper stickers and all kinds. I mean, it's like, where does this all come from? I mean, it was dozens of t-shirts and hats and bumper stickers and all kinds. I mean, it's like, where does this all come from? I mean, it was almost like Taylor Swift kind of swag. It's like of everything. It wasn't just a sign. It's the kinds of thing that has taken on its own life on that. And it's like something very special exists there. And that doesn't mean that I admire it. It's just like, it's real. And now you have Musk is now joining him. I mean, to a lot of people, I mean, that's

like, hey, that's Tony Stark. And that's the world's richest guy. And he's obviously, and undeniably, he's a brilliant guy. And he's saying, hey, that's my guy for president. That's going to really matter. You've alluded to the fact that people see Elon Musk as Iron Man, Tony Stark. What do you see as the union of these two people? What do you think it does? I was alarmed.

But I was truly alarmed about that when he started showing up. I mean, I've been there, not at that rally, but when they were having the AI conference in Washington, he showed up in my building at Russell. And senators were like, oh, they were like, you know, I got to have two minutes, please, whatever. So if senators are all like, hmm, then can you imagine voters in Scranton or all across Pennsylvania be like, in some sense, he's a bigger star than Trump is. And so we're in a business, endorsements, they're really not meaningful often. But this one is, I think, that has me concerned. I mean, Pennsylvania is a place with a lot of union workers. Did it make you nervous that the Teamsters, for example, didn't back a Democrat for president? Well, I think that's finally making the grassroots already more official.

You know, I'll never forget, I live directly across the street from the steel mill, and we were doing an event there for Clinton. And I asked the union president, I'm like, hey, where are we are on Trump? And he's like, yeah, probably half or 60%, two thirds are voting for him. And I was like, oh, that sucks. And then immediately there was a guy getting off and he had a truck and he had truck nuts on it. Do you know what truck nuts are? Do I look like I know what truck nuts are? Yeah, it's balls hung on the hitch of a truck. And he honked and he was like, go Trump, as he drove by.

And it's like, hey, we're in trouble. And it's undeniable. And some unions, like SEIUI, you know, and the government kinds of unions are still very, very democratic. But those others, you know, I think a lot of their membership, for a lot of people, you know, Trump has that kind of a connection. It's the cultural stuff, right? Very visceral in that sense, yeah. I mean, that's real. And I witnessed that. And that's why I'm concerned. And that's why polls were inaccurate. And that's why now I'm

saying we got to fight for every last vote. It's going to matter. Do you think the polls are inaccurate this time? You know, my polls in my race all said I was going to lose by one or two points. And I carried it by five points. And everybody thought that Clinton was going to just kill him. And of course, no. And people thought that in 2020, Biden was going to have like five points. And I'm like, no, this isn't going to be a five-point

race here. And it wasn't, and it was incredibly close. And that same thing has been replicated now. And the only thing that's changed is he's more popular even. And hey, you know, you have Elon Musk standing right next to him too. And so I'm not sure what else has changed, except if anything, Trump has become more capable to withstand whatever, you know, whether it was the trials or the assassination or all of those things. But here he is. You were outspoken during the 2020 election ballot counting and challenges. Election officials in Pennsylvania are warning now that the ballots could take days to count.

Is that something you're worried about? Well, that, well, I'm very hopeful, and I do think that now, four years later, Philadelphia can now process those votes quickly, just like the same thing that Allegheny County has done that. And then now why there is no that huge how many days of wondering, and now that allows people to pound, pound, pound. It. You know, it's rigged, it's rigged, it's rigged. And that was allowed for people to say, you know, set the stage saying, bad things happen in Philadelphia. And it's going to dog whistle about you. And then that's why that allows it to stir the shit storm.

So as long as Philadelphia is able to do the kind of quick around, just like Allegheny, then I think you'll have a lot less opportunity. And then also Trump was the sitting president at that time, and now he's just a private citizen. So he has a less ability to change the weather. After the break, I asked Senator Fetterman about becoming one of his party's most outspoken supporters of Israel. We can both agree that the misery and the deaths in Gaza is terrible. And, you know, some people blame Israel. Well, I do want to ask you about some of what you said in the past year. Because you've become one of the most pro-Israel Democrats in the Senate, where there has been some division within the party over what's been happening in the Middle East. I would love to understand where your affinity with the state of Israel actually comes from.

Can you explain its origin to me? Yes. Well, I mean, I can't say that there is an origin. I think it's really about that's our ally. There's a special relationship. And now if anyone that studies history realize that if you aren't unwilling to stand and protect and support the Jewish community, that can end in incredibly terrible, awful ways. That's what history has taught us. And now to anybody that doesn't follow the history and not even aware of a lot of it, you know, like err on the side of democracy. And that is the only democracy in the middle of that region. And I had the chance to visit there. And that's the kind of society that have the same kinds of values that we live and what we aspire to, especially, ironically, progressives, especially for women and members of the LGBTQ communities. And that's why it's—so for me, it's an easy choice through this.

In January, you were one of two Senate Democrats. The other was Joe Manchin, who didn't sign on to support a measure endorsing the creation of a Palestinian state. This was part of a national security package that included military aid to Israel. Can you explain that vote to me? I really used to believe that it should be a done deal for a two-state solution. I mean, that became part of the boilerplate for Democrats, and I assume that must be true. But the way things have evolved and where we're at now, I mean, that would be ideal. I wish there could be peaceful two states, but the way things continue to evolve, I'm unsure if that's even possible.

I'm hopeful, but now I'm not convinced that's not even viable. But what seems to be true, and one of the enduring truths through this is that Israel continues to confront the kinds of singular evil that really manifests its way in October 7th. And they have the right and strategically to destroy Hamas. And then now Hezbollah, you know, everybody, experts describe Hezbollah as like the ultimate badass and Israel demolished them over within the next week and a half. And there's no leadership left. And those are the kinds of hard things that needed to finally be confronted if they're ever going to have some more enduring peace. I think there's two things going on.

One is the destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah, which are deemed terrorist organizations by the United States. And then there's how you go about doing that and what is the cost. And people would look at the cost of how many people have been killed, civilians in Gaza, and say that the cost is too high and that too many civilians have died. So I guess I'm struggling to understand a little bit of the nuance there from you. Well, there isn't any nuance. There isn't any nuance. You think that the price that's been paid is fair? The price is terrible. It's awful. That's history. And that's war. And Israel was forced to fight an enemy that are cowardly. They hide in tunnels, they hide in schools and in refugee camps, and they're in those kinds of places. And that forces

them to reach them. They have to go through these civilians. That's why they're so evil, and that's why that's designed. The death and destruction and the misery was designed by Hamas. They understood that that's going to happen. They don't care. So we can both agree that the misery and the deaths in Gaza is terrible. And, you know, some people blame Israel. Well, I blame Hamas. As you mentioned, you visited Israel for the first time in June. You met with Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who thanked you for your courage and your support of Israel. How do you see his leadership during this conflict? I thought it was really curious that Democrats felt like they needed to politically to criticize Israel, but that would be difficult.

So they found that, well, we're going to just focus on Netanyahu. And you can think he's a bad leader or a bad person or anything, but that happens to be the democratically leader of Israel. And he's on our side, that's our ally. And if you had to pick who you want to criticize, you should be criticizing Hamas. You should be calling out Iran or you should be calling out Hezbollah, you know, certainly not, you know, our ally. So that's, I think, was incredibly unhelpful. And a bad leader, for some people, can be doing what I think is necessary, and then no one has been able to answer the question. It's like, how can you rebuild Gaza if Hamas is functional and still in charge? How is that even possible? Are you concerned that he's working to get Trump elected?

I don't believe that. I don't. And if you think that that might be, I don't know why it's helpful to say that publicly. You know, like, I have to believe all of those college protesting and a lot of those other things, they would give Hamas opportunity to rejoice a lot of those other things, they would give Hamas opportunity to rejoice

a lot of this division. But now there's not much left of them anymore to celebrate. I am curious if on that trip you made to Israel, if you went to the West Bank at all and met any Palestinians there. I didn't go to the West. I didn't. And then, so I didn't go to the West. I didn't. And then, so, I didn't have unlimited time to see all the things that I wish I could. But I would love to go back. I guess what I'm asking is if you've tried to understand the other side of this conflict. Well, I've talked to a lot of people. I would visit and I would discuss members of the Arab and Muslim from Pennsylvania.

I would have open dialogue. I entertain that. I would be happy to, to really understand the other side. And I've been unable to, other than it's like, hey, if we can just stop fighting and attacking Israel, that's going to make the life, the quality of life for anyone in that region to start to get better. I just want to bring it back to your state, though, because you have gotten criticism from both Muslim groups and pro-peace Jewish groups. Last month, the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh chapters of the Council on American Islamic Relations, they issued a joint statement where they condemned you for saying

that you loved Israel's pager attacks targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon. I do. Absolutely. Well, you know, they said, when our elected officials start condoning the civilian loss of life, our collective moral compass is irreparably harmed. That's a quote. And indeed, that attack did hurt and maim civilians. It didn't. It actually, it was targeted for members of Hezbollah. You know, no one uses beepers in that situation other than they were a member of Hezbollah. That was the young child of a... That was a micro-targeting to minimize civilians. It was a young child who was killed, who was taking the pager to their parent. It did, unfortunately, tragically, because daddy was a member of Hezbollah.

That's tragic. You know, he brought that danger and evil into their home. And that's what tragically resulted in that poor child's death. That's what's so terrible. She paid the price because her father was a terrorist for Hezbollah. And I agree for the death of Palestinian children and other innocents there. I don't assign any more value to their lives versus my own children's lives. And that's why we have to destroy Hamas and we have to find and develop a new way forward

where people can live in peace so that this kinds of death and misery has to stop. But it's not being driven by Israel. It's driven by Hamas and Iran and that kinds of commitment to destroy the state of Israel. And now you have idiots in this nation, you know, talking about and chanting about from the river to the sea, and they try to pretend that doesn't exactly what that means. And that is Israel is in the middle of the sea and that river,

and that has to be wiped free. And that's, at least own your anti-Semitism rather than trying to hide behind a turn on words. I do want to ask you at one other place where you've been at odds with your party, which is on immigration. You understood that it was something that was going to affect people in your state and beyond. It is. It's a huge issue. My question is, the party has now embraced enforcement at the border, but comprehensive immigration reform means legalization as well.

What posture do you think the party should be adopting? How can the Democratic Party really deal with what has become a very, very divisive issue within it. Well, we had to address it. I said that it's like, why is it controversial to say that we're going to need a secure border? And when you started looking at the numbers that were showing up, and at some month, it was the population of Pittsburgh showing up at the border in a month. Well, if we want their own American dream, and we would want to provide everyone's American dream, that's the promise of immigrants. But how do you, what happens to all of them? How can they be okay?

And so, I mean, that's a real issue. Democrats can't stop, you know, like trying to tell people, well, don't believe your eyes. Don't believe your eyes. It's going to be okay. It's all working out. It's not. It's like, and I'm the most pro-immigration guy there is, but that has to be compatible with we have a secure border. And I will never listen to anyone's other side until you can explain, like, how? How do we take care of them? Where do those resources come from? And where do they go? Nobody could provide a serious answer to that. Do you think if the Democratic ticket loses this election, it will be off the back of issues like immigration?

I don't. I mean, it's certainly in places like Arizona, and I know it is very meaningful in Pennsylvania as well, too. I don't think it's the defining issue. I think I just described that as the choice, the choice. Two incredibly stark choices. It's not about a certain policy, and it's definitely not going to be about fracking or some of these obscure things. It's not about that. It's about that stark choice. And it's really much more it's visceral.

And that's why the people that are left that haven't made up their decision are going to have this, you know, what do I want for the next four years? And I do believe enough people will choose Harris, but I do think it's going to be much, much closer than anyone would want. That's Senator John Fetterman. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano.

Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orme. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddie Macielo, Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman,

Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations,

you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. And you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at the interview at nytimes.com. Next week, David talks with philosopher Peter Singer about the ethics of eating meat. At some point, you might say, well, if you want me at your Thanksgiving, I don't want to be there with a big bird sitting on the table, who I know has suffered in the ways that the standard American Thanksgiving turkey has suffered.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times. Thank you.