The Interview - Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense. [Re-Run]

Episode Date: December 27, 2025

With Christmas just past, we are re-sharing an episode that we originally aired on Dec. 21, 2024. In it, the star of "The Chosen" discusses his early struggles in Hollywood, fans who conflate him with his character and how his own faith informs his work.

Hi, it's David. We're off for the holidays, but we'll be back with a new episode in two weeks. In the meantime, we're bringing you a conversation I had around Christmas time last year with the actor Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus on the popular TV series The Chosen. Since we talked, the show aired its fifth season. He and I talked about what it's like to play Jesus on TV and to try to live up to his fans' expectations. Enjoy the conversation and happy holidays. From the New York Times, this is the interview. I'm David Marquesi. It's common, maybe even natural, for audiences to blur the lines between actors and their famous roles, to assume that a beloved on-screen doctor might know something about medicine, or that an action hero is a tough guy off-screen too.

But Jonathan Rumi is dealing with an unusually charged version of this dynamic in his role as Jesus Christ. And yes, this is our version of Chris. Christmas season programming. Since 2017, Rumi has been the star of the global hit series The Chosen. The series takes a prestige TV approach to the story of Jesus, full of sharp dialogue, interpersonal drama, unexpected humor, and high production values. That slickly appealing modern style, centered on Rumi's warm and relatable portrayal, has helped the show to become a massive success.

It's been watched by more than 250 million people, and will return for its fifth season under Creator Dallas Jenkins next year. That success has also helped turn Rumi, a devout Catholic, into a kind of public faith leader. At public events for the Chosen, he swamped by fans looking to, as it were, touch the hem of his garment. He gets asked to speak at faith-based events, and in the online world,

he has a partnership with the prayer app Hallow, where listeners can hear him read scripture and lead meditative reflections. As Rumi is well aware, his is a complicated and just plainly. an unlikely situation for an actor to be in, but it's also, he believes, part of a greater plan. And for me, as someone who is sincerely curious about faith, and even if I'm being honest, a little envious of those who have it, his belief is something I wanted to understand.

Here's my conversation with Jonathan Rumi. So you've been playing Jesus on The Chosen for five seasons. now what sort of conversations did you and dallas have about the kind of jesus that you wanted to show because your jesus it's a very different portrayal than jim kivisel's jesus in the passion of the christ or willem defoe's in the last temptation of christ or or you know what else is a good one but also very different than yours is um max von sidel oh yeah the greatest story i'm told um but all those Jesus is or G-Zi, I don't know what they're. There's a solemnity to them. And your Jesus is a much more, in some ways, contemporary feeling, Jesus. I think what makes it feel like that, that we have

that all those other portrayals didn't have access to was the format of time to build characters and build relationships over episodes. You're seeing the nuances of the nuances of, of his character, his quirks, the humanity of these characters, the day-to-day of these characters. And so if you believe they existed, and I do, they were human beings. So theology aside, nobody's ever explored that humanity. Nobody's ever wondered, well, what would it be like

to crack a joke with Jesus, to have a glass of wine with Jesus, to see him dancing at a wedding? Because if you're human, laughing and joking, and frustration and the entire spectrum, of emotions are part of the human process, part of the human journey, part of the struggle. He went through all of these things that we do so that we would have somebody to relate to as we're going through these trials ourselves. Did you have any apprehension about showing a version of Jesus that isn't one that's

typically shown? I didn't because I think he has to feel human. If he doesn't feel human, most people won't relate to him. I mean, granted, there might be scenarios from time to time where, and I've shared this with Dallas, where he and I may not have exactly alignment on like, well, I feel like if he says it like this, it's just a little too casual, you know? And he then may come back to me and say, yeah, but here's why. And then he goes through it.

I'm like, okay, I get that. I'm just saying in my head I was thinking of the sort of cliche of, an actor saying, oh, what's my motivation? In your case, they answer, well, you've got to bring about the salvation of the world. Play it like that. Saving souls. I've got to save more souls. And so the decision was made that you were going to do The Chosen.

Before that, you know, maybe scuffling is too strong of word, but you were just sort of a jobbing actor. Struggle busing. Struggle busing. How does it happen that a struggle busing actor makes it big playing G. Jesus. I think that the path to that is absolute and uncompromising, surrendering to a higher power, things that are beyond my control. Because that's what it took, I believe, for me to get to the place where I was ready for an opportunity like this. I had moved to L.A. and then I struggled for eight years in Los Angeles, only to realize that I was trying so hard to control my life, to control

my destiny, to do the things that I thought needed to be done to have a successful career as an actor. And they weren't working. I was on government assistance. That ran out. I woke up, completely broke one morning six and a half years ago. And I was literally in, it was just, I didn't see any way out that I could figure out how to make work. And so I literally said, God, you take this from me. It's in your hands now. It's not up to me. And I'm not going to worry about it. And I was relieved because I really felt now it wasn't my choice. And then three months later, the chosen comes along. And I thought, okay, I just needed to submit. I know that you're a Practicing Catholic.

Yeah. What does your faith allow you to give to the role that a non-believer or a non-Catholic might not be able to give? I feel that it lends an authenticity to the role that allows me to understand more of why Jesus did the things he did and said the things he did than somebody who is completely unfamiliar. And I think I struggle to follow Jesus like anybody else who considers themselves a Christian. But the struggle is part of it. And I think God knows what we struggle with, but we're still challenged to do what he would do in those situations. And I think because I actually believe that, that seems to have lent me a kind of credibility and an authenticity in approaching the character that maybe people haven't seen.

You know, it's interesting, because you're saying that who you are allows you to play the role of Jesus with a particular authenticity. Do you feel that someone who is a non-believer could credibly and authentically play that part? I think they could. I think if they had a real understanding of what he represented and why he was so much of a revolutionary to his time and even today, I think they could. But they would have to, I mean, in layman's terms, you'd have to do your research and drop into the character and, you know, go Daniel Day Lewis on it. And for three months, you know, go live as a rabbi in a kibbutz or something

like that. I don't know. But I think with a character like Jesus, I think a lot of people do sort of reduce him to a really great teacher, really cool guy, you know, shared a lot. He becomes a sandaled hippie in a lot of, you know, people's minds that are like, oh, you know, he said some cool stuff and he did some cool things. And it's like, I think he's, I think he was a little more than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. When I watch videos of you giving talks for crowds, you know, you come out and very often, it seems, a wave of applause, like really an overwhelming response. And the idea that you're getting that sort of attention

combined with the fact that you're getting it for playing Jesus strikes me as a potentially psychologically and spiritually combustible situation. Does it feel that way to you? No, because I recognize that none of his is about me, I don't matter in the grand scheme of things. And so I recognize that when I come out to those speeches and people react the way they do and people yell out, Jesus, you know, that they're seeing me as the face of the guy

that they've had this response to, this reaction to while experiencing the show, and I'm the closest thing to the real Jesus that they probably will ever see in person. And so I think, psychologically, they know I'm not Jesus, but they feel they want me to be the next best thing. I, of course, I cannot go anywhere near that reality, but that said, if I believe everything I believe about my faith, I'm in this position for a reason. I was cast as Jesus and somebody else wasn't. Why?

God only knows why. You're saying essentially that you become a human icon for people. The thing that I don't quite understand is how you separate the idea that, as you said, like, sort of you're nothing here. You don't matter. Dust in the wind. But then also feeling like you've been put here for a reason. You're saying there is something special about you. Those seem to me like somewhat contradictory ideas.

How do you reconcile them? And then also, there was never some small part of you that's like, oh, I am special. None of that little sort of ego gratification temptation ever creeps into your head? I think if I said there wasn't anything at all, I'd be lying. Do I allow it to become my reason for doing what I do? No. So the paradox that you're describing, I guess it is kind of hard to make that distinction. Yes, there's for me a sense of mission.

But the mission is about Jesus, in this case with the Chosen, it's about God. That's what this experience is in playing this role when I meet fans who come out. And I was just in the Philippines. And it was nuts, man. Like, I've never seen anything like it. They were tremendous. They're just so intense. And everywhere I go, they're like giving me stuff and little articles and notes and things like that.

So I'm playing this character that people, for the most part, they already love him. They have a relationship with him. And then I come in and I sort of fulfill their idea of who that person is to them in their life. And I'm also one of them in that I have a relationship. And a lot of them know that. And a lot of fans know how I feel about Jesus and God and faith and all of those things. things. And so I think all of that combined, I think it's the reason for my career. So, you know, you go to these events and like you described, thousands of people are

cheering and are coming up to you. And you also are asked to come and speak at things like the National Eucharistic Congress or you gave a commencement address at the Catholic University of America. You spoke at the March for Life in Washington last year. these sort of demands on your time and on your being, do you feel like you're being asked to give more than you have to give? It can be draining. If I'm meeting you at one of these events and something has moved you to want to come and have this individual moment

that oftentimes happens at some of these things where they'll have like VIP groups that there are certain people that get to have like some one-on-one time, but there's 700 of them. that takes time and it takes energy, and a lot of the times it's emotionally charged and, you know, better or worse, that catches up with you after 700 encounters.

Was there a particularly difficult encounter that comes to mind? I was at a conference in a stadium of about 40,000 people. And I came off the stage, and shortly thereafter, I got to the little green room where they had us hanging out, and security comes into the room and says, hey, there's a lady outside who's got a child in a wheelchair. Is it okay? She wants to know if she can say hello.

And I came outside, and I met the lady and her son, and she was already overwhelmed. And she then went on to tell me, she said, you know, our favorite episode is the episode where Tamar, one of the characters, lets her friend down on a stretcher in through the roof of Zebedee's house, and Jesus heals him, and he can walk again.

And she says, so I just thought, wouldn't it be great if the same thing happened to my son? And I said, yeah, that would be amazing, but I got to be honest with you, as far as I know, I don't have that gift. But I would look to pray with you if that's okay. So I just stood with them, and I prayed with them for a minute, and they were so gracious and thanked me, and I walked away, and then I just burst into tears. Because I thought to myself, man, on some level, I must have let them down. But they know, they know what I do.

They know I'm not a healer. I'm not a preacher. So once I got through that line of thought, I recognized that. I said, okay, I can't be what she maybe wanted me to be. I can only be who I've been made to be. There's a way in which experiences like that call to mind for me a kind of, you could almost call it like a category error about the position that you find yourself in where you're an actor.

And because you play this role, you are put into positions that probably an actor shouldn't be put into. You know, and it seems like increasingly you are becoming a figure of authority. When you're asked by people to come talk to groups of Catholics, what do you think they want from you in that setting? And is there a part of you that thinks, this is Mesta? I'm an actor. Why ask me? Ask a theologian. Ask a priest. That's a great question. I mean, I think first and foremost, the category, error thing is kind of funny because I think all of us are not the sum total of what we do. You know, I think you by what you do as an interviewer and the questions that you ask people

and the things that you bring out of people shed light on humanity in ways that other people wouldn't know how to do. And so in many ways, you have a gift for humanity that you might not even be considering in that light. You know what I mean? Oh, I have 100% agree with everything you just said. No, but it's true. No, but it's absolutely true because we're not just, I don't think we're just meant to be here to just eke out a living and get a job and maybe have a family, make some money, and then die. Like, we have a conversation and some sort of fruit comes out of that for somebody else hearing this interview. And all of a sudden, the trajectory that they were on all of a sudden changes.

They learned something or they had misconceptions about Christians or Catholics or, you know, non-Christians that they didn't before. And now they have a better dialogue. It's like, that's part of, I think, what we're all here to do. I don't give my political opinions out publicly. Well, not quite true. I mean, talking at the March for Life. Well, here's what I'll say about that. Which I should explain is a pro-life, also call it anti-abortion rally that happens every year in Washington.

Yeah, it's a pro-life rally. It's, for me, and I was on the fence about speaking there because I recognize that for so many people, it is only political. For me, it is only spiritual. Tease that out for me. so if I come to a conference like the March for Life and they want me to share thoughts well I'm thinking like well what do I believe as a Catholic I believe in the sanctity of life

from the moment of conception that's what we believe as Catholics and Christians and so for me it's a spiritual thing that has been usurped and turned into a political weapon that divides people in such a way where they no longer see the spirituality of the issue. It becomes completely about right or left, conservative or liberal. I don't understand it. So for me, that wasn't politics, that was spirituality.

You can't cherry pick the aspects of your faith you like and dispense the things you don't like. Like, you said it yourself, I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword. You know, fathers will divide themselves against their sons, mothers and daughters. Because of things like this, these kinds of issues that I think for Jesus, it's like, if you're going to follow me, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be really hard, and people will hate you. Get used to it. Why is abortion the issue where you chose to make your voice public and not other things that are central to Jesus' teachings like in treatment of the poor, for example?

I mean, I do do that. In fact, I was just in Tanzania and Rwanda visiting these children that I support and their families, which I had been doing even before the chosen. A year before The Chosen, I found this charity called Unbound. And I saw the work that they were doing, and they were changing not just the children's lives through sponsorship, but entire family. So I'm doing as much as I can. And I weigh every opportunity that comes to me to speak on these things very carefully. And I also, I also know that there's only, there's only so much that I can give of myself. Do you know what I mean? It's a lot.

Like, it's a lot for me physically and, and emotionally, it's just, it can get really, really taxing at times. And so I'm trying to do things like just take better care of myself and try to go on more vacations. But it's hard to find time these days. but, you know, sleep when you're in the ground, right? I realize you just made a comment about trying to find relaxations, peace of mind. But I have another question about the March for Life. Well, let's see how this goes. There's one moment in the speech you gave there where you sort of pivot and say, you know,

you know about the world of entertainment. And I'm paraphrasing all of this. So if I'm misremembering, just correct. I'll help you. It's super dark. Yes. And you're sort of. of diagnosing the cultural landscape and you say, you know, there's just sort of an increase

in, you know, occult imagery, depictions of witchcraft. And you say some of this is even subliminal and you know it when you see it. And I don't know exactly what you mean. Can you give me examples of the kind of stuff you're talking about? I think we've reached a point now in culture where seeing depictions and images and symbolism of Satan and

Satanism and demons and witchcraft and the symbols that's related to all of the occult are so frequent and regular that it's so easy to become desensitized I think your mind just filters it

like oh I've seen that so many times now it doesn't even register and if you go back a couple of decades ago you would never see anything like that and i've seen it more i think in in the music industry demonic imagery in music videos and and immodesty and all of these things that the youngest of our society are subjected to and and shouldn't be i i don't believe you know like i think for me remembering that speech my heart was for the kids that see certain things like on music videos and then they reenact them themselves or they wear what they're what they're seeing because it's it's what's popular and fashionable and they don't have any idea that

some of the imagery or the symbols or the words or that are being used are from a spiritual standpoint, really, really damaging and really dangerous on a level that we've never seen before. You know, it's funny because I said, you know, I don't see it. And of course, you know, it's like, I enjoy the music of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest, you know what I mean. Oh, I'm a huge Iron Maiden fan. Iron Maiden. A number of the beasts. I'm like, well, you know, I can't really wear that T-shirt so much anymore. But to me, you know, that kind of imagery, it feels benign to me like it's on the same level

as like science fiction movies or horror films you know it's like this is entertainment so my question for you is but you're also referencing like that like black like rock and and the imagery

from those bands in that time are different than some of the more modern I like if certain I think it's much more graphic and sexualized like sexuality is so much more prevalent in the media, like with, especially in music,

like the display of sexuality and the dark images connected to sexuality are so much more blatant than they ever were 30, 40 years ago. But do you think the kind of iconography you're talking about is the natural outcome of corroded culture, or do you think it's the intentional result of darker forms? I mean, I think it could be a combination of a number of things. I think it could be how society at large has framed faith and religion and banished it from visible culture, you know?

From areas in the culture where you used to see more people, I think, frame it. framing their faith within the context of what they do or like even presidents and people would invoke just in their speech would invoke God in the way that they don't do that anymore and I think it doesn't seem like there's a shortage of politicians talking about but not without a negative connotation to it put it this way I'll speak for myself I had a conversation several years ago about the discussion of faith in the workplace. They were a non-actor. It was sort of a production member.

And I know we shared a similar faith, and we hadn't really talked about it, but there was a spark of a conversation that made me think, oh, let me ask them about this. And they went on to carefully admonish me like, hey, you know, just be careful. You really shouldn't talk about,

these kinds of things because a lot of people are biased against, you know, Christians in this industry. So you might want to just kind of keep a lid on that. And I thought, but it's just us talking. Do you know what I mean? And I think what I recognized is that there was such a deep fear of being, quote, unquote, found out that they had a sense of faith, that it was just, it was not okay to possess that. And for me, that's not okay. It's not okay to be told I can't practice my faith or express it, especially if I'm not going around saying,

here's the Bible, do me favor, just read that. I'm not asking anybody to convert. I'm not. I've never once said, do me favor, you should convert. I just live out my mission here. I be who I am, and if people want to ask me questions or invite me to come talk to, you know, 200,000 people and share my thoughts about certain things, I'll pray on it first. Like with the march, I didn't even, the weeks leading right up to it.

I didn't want to do it. I thought, this can't be good for an actor. but then I got to this moment that I had when I first completely surrendered everything to God before I booked the chosen and it was the same feeling of you know what

I'm asking you to do this and not worry about it and it was like this wave of peace just kind of swept over me and they said, just speak from the heart. If you think about the work you're doing in terms of mission, how much of that mission feels to you evangelical in nature? Like if somebody watches the show and is merely entertained and nothing more,

do you feel that something has been left on the table? No, no, I think one of the reasons that we're successful and it's one of the priorities for both Dallas and myself and I think everybody involved is that we recognize first and foremost this is a TV show it's based on scriptures based on the Gospels but there's stuff that for we've had to take creative license in certain situations to be able to tell a more well-rounded story but if the vehicle of this story is anything less than top quality if it's not a great TV show first

than anything else that any of us might want to have people take away from the show from a personal perspective or a faith perspective, none of that's going to matter. You know what I mean? Like if you take a piece of gold

and you wad it up in a ball of trash and you throw it on the sidewalk and say, you should pick that up. You know, get lost. You know, nobody's going to want to even touch it. They just walk by it. So it's the same thing. Like if the message behind the show

is a little piece of gold wrapped up in a lot of garbage, forget it. You're done next, move on. So, yeah, it still has to be a great TV show first and then everything else from that can flow. You know, actors who have been on successful TV shows, I think it's not uncommon for them to have been typecast

because of the familiarity that people had with the characters that they played. Sure. And that's not even taking into account playing Jesus. Do you have any concern about the industry typecasting you in that role? Are you getting any clues out there in the world about that? Yeah, no, I'm not. And it's really true, David.

Like, whatever happens, man, whatever's meant for me will be mine. Do you know what I mean? and if I did nothing else for the rest of my life as an actor on camera, but Jesus in the Chosen, and that's all people remembered me for. Well, the fact that they remember me at all, that's amazing. Like, I'm good because the show is just a vehicle for this point of human contact and this encounter that we're all meant to have with each other and with the divine beyond us.

After the break, I call Jonathan Rumi back, and he tells me why he thinks that Chosen should make Hollywood less wary of religion. To get to the point now where globally, it's one of the most watched TV shows in the entire world, and 30% of that audience is non-religious, I think that's pretty significant. And so I don't really know why Hollywood would be afraid of that.

Thank you for taking the time to do this again. Of course, it's my pleasure. So let me just ask a seasonally appropriate question. At this point in American culture, Christmas is sort of like a secular holiday. Do you have feelings about how secular Christmas has become? Yeah, it's been almost 100% secularized in terms of media and culture. I think it's hard to sort of see it being hijacked, but it's been like that for, I remember as a kid seeing these signs around churches, around Christmas time,

it says, keep Christ in Christmas. And especially now, any movie that comes out during the season that's about Christmas, there's no trace of Jesus in it at all. So it's unfortunate, but that's why guys like Dallas Jenkins are around to kind of give people the alternatives, like, oh, yeah, this is what this is about. And then, however, I can contribute in my own way, like, to remember, like, yes, Christmas is supposed to be joyful, but at the end of the day, you know, the birth of Christ is meant to ultimately lead us to the cross of Christ to bring the world, hope, and salvation, and everything that comes with that. And you told this interesting anecdote about discussion with a crew member about how discussing, Faith at work was sort of a no-go.

What might account for why faith is tricky for Hollywood? I don't know why, because I think when you look at the numbers with how the Chosen has performed and how other projects like Jesus Revolution have done with audiences, there's an audience that's there. But I think maybe because for so long there has been a rash of media, and content and films made under the guise of being related to faith that have just missed the mark in terms of excellence, or they read is so heavy-handed in their attempts to proselytize that essentially they're made for the choir. And with the chosen, it's like, well, we really see ourselves as a historical drama. And so 30% of our audience now is non-religious. Like,

that's a lot. And for a show that the early adopters were Christians, to get to the point now where globally, it's one of the most watched TV shows in the entire world, and 30% of that audience is non-religious, I think that's pretty significant. And so I don't really know why Hollywood would be afraid of that. You talked about the idea of surrendering to God. And I think that for non-believers, the idea of surrender and what that actually means in practice, I think, you know, it can just sound like a well-meaning cliche, I think, you know, in the way that, you know, when you hear an athlete talk about, you know, we just start taking it one game at a time and giving it 110 percent, you know, it's just not untrue, but it's just not really helping you to understand what's going on. And I wonder if you can try to explain a little bit more concretely about what it actually looked like for you to surrender and sort of let go, because you're still a person walking around with ideas and, you know, you're trying to accomplish things and you have judgments about things. So what does it mean in practice to let go?

I think that's a great question. I think the simplest way to describe it is knowing or arriving at the position of where I recognize that my ability to control my destiny, my fate, my path, whatever you want to call it, ultimately, I believe, is beyond me. Yet I have to participate in the process of moving forward, of achievement, of trying to follow the direction that I believe I'm meant to go. When I came to the conclusion in that moment that we talked about, that moment of surrender, I came to the conclusion that for the previous eight years, up to that point, I think that God had an idea or a plan for me.

And then it's like he said, okay, this is, I've given you these gifts, I've given you these talents, do something with them. And I'm kind of like, oh, okay, let me go do something with them. And sort of leaving him out of the discernment process when it came to certain steps to take to move forward. And so I did that for years and years and years, and I think as a person of faith, you necessarily cannot keep God separate from any part of your life, especially in areas where you're struggling, and for me, it was in a moment of severe stress and anxiety and borderline

fiscal destitution that I basically said, I can't do it on. my own. I recognize I've been trying to do everything that I thought I was supposed to do. But it hasn't worked. And what I realized is that I've never checked in and thought whether or not this particular action was the right move or that was what God might want for my life. So now it was essentially a prayer where I say, I want whatever you want for me because you know better than I do what's good for me. Whatever that is, show me what it is. You're so firmly on your path now, but are there ways in which your faith is still being tested? Constantly. God willing, I'm on the path, but that's part of the mystery of faith. God ultimately is unknowable.

But give me the nitty-gritty. where are you being tested you know they asked st paul about that and he he never really quite answered directly he had a prayer he's like lord take this thorn from my side three times he said i asked the lord to take this thorne from my side and that god said no i'm not going to take that from you because my grace is sufficient in other words he needed paul to have this thing this weakness whatever it was so that Paul would always depend on God for everything that he got. And I feel similarly with my own sort of things. I'm not comparing myself to Paul in any aspect whatsoever.

But we all deal with something, right? We're all suffering and struggling with something. I'm a woefully flawed human being, but I'm trying to do the best that I can with the gifts that I've been given. and by me even just walking my, you know, the walk of faith publicly, it's not something that I ever intended to do. It's something that, you know, during the pandemic, I literally felt pushed to do, and I started doing it.

I started praying live on my social media accounts, and I thought, what am I doing? This is career killer, because it was like, it would first of all out me as a Christian and then in many cases even more stringently out me as a Catholic Christian which people find even harder to take

so you know there's like a billion Catholics in the world there are but you know that I don't know that they're all here in America and most of my audience the current president Catholic but it just wasn't something I'd ever thought to do or wanted to do or felt that I should do.

I'd always kept it separate. And then I just felt this, you know, this thought, this, you know, inclination, like, you should do this because people are struggling really bad right now. And it's going to bring peace to a lot of people. So, you know, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to go where I'm led, man. Jonathan, thank you. And happy holidays. Thank you. My question. David, Godless.

That's Jonathan Rumi. Season 5 of The Chosen comes out next year. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marian Lazzano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priam Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orr. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Afim Shapiro, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick.

If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to n.ytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us any time at the interview at nyatimes.com. I'm David Marquesie, and this is The Intervie. from The New York Times.