The Interview - Marlon Wayans Lost Nearly 60 Loved Ones. Comedy Saved Him.

Episode Date: May 4, 2024

The comedian talks to David Marchese on becoming a different person after unimaginable loss.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. It's not easy to make what some people might call dumb comedy. Because if it were, more people would have a career as successful as Marlon Wayans. Wayans broke out in the early 2000s when he co-wrote and co-starred in slapsticky parody comedy movie hits like Scary Movie 1 and 2, White Chicks, and my personal favorite, Little Man, which for those of you who don't remember is one in which he plays an adult masquerading as a baby. He spends most of the movie in a diaper.

Marlon is the youngest of 10 children, and he's a member of the Wayans family comedy dynasty, which also includes his successful siblings Damon, Sean, Kim, and Keenan Ivory Wayans. They all had a hand in the groundbreaking 90s sketch comedy show In Living Color. Marlon went from there to later starring on five seasons of the WB sitcom The Wayans Brothers. He made all those hit movies I mentioned, and then on top of all that, he's also built a nice career for himself as a supporting player in dramatic movies. But recently, Wayans, who's now 51, has been using his comedy to work through some much heavier topics. His upcoming stand-up special called Good Grief is all about the death of his parents, as well as the nearly 60 other loved ones he's lost in just the last few years.

When I talked to Marlon, he was in Albuquerque, where he was filming a psychological horror movie with Jordan Peele's production company, and he was getting ready to host a party for the film's cast and crew, where everyone was expected to show up in cowboy gear. Here's my conversation with Marlon Wayans. Hi, Marlon. What's up, David? How are you? I'm good. Tired. Tired from filming? Yeah, man. This one is a lot on the 50-year-old body. 51. But it's great. You said you're tired, but you're having a party tonight? Is that what I just heard?

Yeah. When I do movies, I like to form community and family. And so I'm having a party for my cast and my crew at my house that I'm renting. And just kind of gathering. The fights are going to be on. And just so people could mingle and roll some cigars and have some tacos. Well, you know, since you're having a party tonight. Shindig. A shindig.

A knees up. You want to pull up? It seems like a perfectly natural thing to talk about the subject of your new special which is the death of your parents gang gang isn't that crazy i that people like what's your next special i'm like oh it's a really funny hilarious journey about the death of my parents. But it wasn't just the death of my parents. I lost 57, 58 people that I loved in a matter of three years.

And it felt like biblical. You know, you read things in the Bible and you go, man, that's some real traumatic stuff that person went through. And then they find this light at the end, we get the lessons. And it's always through like tragedy. How do you find the funny thing in the sad thing? Or when did you realize that you could make comedy out of these traumatic events? It's been a gift since I was a kid. I mean, all of us, Wayanses, we're crazy people. Like, the worst thing happens, and the first thing we think is what's funny about it.

There's funny absolutely everywhere. I remember my cousin said he died, and my auntie buried him on jeans, and he had a T-shirt, and Air Force Ones and a baseball cap. And me and Damon sitting over his casket. And Damon looks at me and goes, you know, if there's a dress code in heaven, I don't think city's getting in. And people thought we were crying, but we were crying and laughing. We always look for laughs. Are there elements of the new special that you can point to and say,

you know, this is a kind of joke or the kind of material that I couldn't have done five years ago or ten years ago? What in it is evidence of your growth as a comedian? I think as a comedian, I'm getting to the good stuff. This was the hardest thing for me to do, to work on this material about my mom passing. And I'm still dealing with the grief as my dad is on his way to transitioning. I had two shows the night my father passed.

I had two shows. And I pulled up to the comedy club and I get a call and my dad died. I was like, okay. All right. Cried in the car real fast. Boom. I had a show.

I didn't cancel the show. I did my show. And then right there on the stage, I told the audience my dad passed. And I broke down. I cried. And then I got ready for the next show. And I think in order to grow as a comedian,

for me, it's like talking about the hard stuff. When you talk about real life pain, like parents passing, something everybody may go through, and you can get through that set and you can find these nuances of funny and you can still be irreverent, edgy, crazy, silly, thought-provoking, and vulnerable all at the same time. I think that's growth. And I miss my parents dearly, but I'm a different human with my parents gone than I was when they were here because I think now I'm a man. I don't have parents anymore. So I live differently and I understand the quality of life. I want a vacation more.

I don't look at my phone as much. I walk. I never went outside and walked. I was never a walker. I thought people was crazy. Why are you walking? Like, bro, get on the train. Every morning, I get up, and for one half hour, I go for a walk.

Just to clear my mind, just to think. And it has me thinking in ways that I never thought before. I pray more because when I pray, I feel like I'm speaking to my parents and that they're listening. And I let them know what's going on. I report back to them. Like Mork, when he used to talk to Ork. Good reference.

Into the show, very 1980s, 70s. But my identity has been concreted in the departure of my legendary parents. So the key to self-improvement, it's simple. You just have to have your parents die. That's a way. Sometimes they'll break you down. You know what's crazy?

My mother's death broke me. It shattered me into a million pieces because that was my girl. I never got married because I never wanted my mother to be jealous of got married because i never wanted my mother to be jealous of a woman i never wanted my mother to feel second to any woman is that true you know that's the reason why you never got absolutely i was i was one of one of the five reasons but that's i'll say that was like number two number one is i was gonna fuck that up

it's gonna happen everybody that knows that I haven't been married, they say, all you did was skip two divorces. And my mom was very needy. And I told my mother on her deathbed, I said, I never got married because I always wanted you to be my number one girl. Those were my last words. I said, take that to heaven with you. So I realize as we're talking about this, talking about your parents, you know, not really making the case that this is a particularly funny special. No, it's hilarious. Let me tell you, it's about an hour and seven minutes.

It's hilarious for about an hour and five. And then you have spread throughout the special two to maybe three minutes of heart. I'm proud of this special because I think it's going to make you feel because I'm crazy and I know it and I can be inappropriate and I know it

and I'm always going to be obnoxious in that way. I think in order for me to hit the different levels of comedy you got to be somewhat offensive. And I'm okay with that. But when you hit the frequency, it speaks to heart. And it's so relatable. You don't think that these things that you're going through, you think that it's just happening to you, but you do these sets and you're like, wow, this is happening to a lot of people. You said, you know, to reach certain levels of comedy, you got to be offensive.

And there is the material in the special. I'm thinking in particular of the, like the Magic Johnson AIDS material. Oh, you saw the special. I saw it. Yeah. Which by the way, he has HIV, not AIDS. You should go in and redub that. You know what the other mistake you make is? You call Louis Armstrong sax player. I know. Trumpet player. But it was still funny, right?

Here's the thing. You can't be super on point with the facts. When you're telling jokes, sometimes you just tell the jokes, man. And what's crazy is I've had friends and relatives that died from AIDS. And so part of even that joke is finding humor and things that happen. It's a different way to look at something tragic. And I think the world has forgot how to laugh. And part of it is we're grooming people to be sensitive. But I find when I'm in a comedy club, people like to laugh. They like to laugh at those dark things, the magic jokes. People want to laugh again. And I'm thinking about in particular, where I understand what you're saying, that you sort of have this series of jokes where you're framing it like,

Maddox's life got better after he got sick, you know? That's kind of the hypothesis of the jokes. But then, you know, you like throw in a line about there, about like sex with monkeys or whatever. And that was the one really where I cringed. I was like, oof, that's rough. Well, I said, show me the monkey I got next. I didn't say he had sex with monkeys. I said, I don't know how he got this good version

of this disease. But however he got that, I want it that way. To me, that was escapism because it's not real of course he didn't have sex with a monkey though if you read into every joke if you get literal everybody's gonna be offended by there's about i'll play 72 things in that special to be offended by. I think great humor is take whoever you send up, those people are laughing the loudest. And I hope that Magic

laughs the loudest at that joke, which he will. Magic has a great sense of humor. I hope Shaq laughs at his joke. I hope all of them laugh. Do your Shaq impression right now. Do your Shaq impression. What was it? What was it? What was it?

What was it? Kobe. You know, these are friends of mine, right? When Kevin Hart does a LeBron hairline joke, I don't think LeBron gets mad. I think, you know, part of it is it's all out there, right? I'm not telling no secrets. This is all out there.

I'm just going, here's a different way to look at it. I rescued myself from depression by learning to laugh in my worst circumstances. Losing my parents broke me. And I'm telling the audience, here's how you can survive this. Find humor in everything. You know, the idea of the culture getting too sensitive or overly sensitive, it's something that people have been talking about and have identified for a while now. And I'm just interested in digging into that a little bit more. Because on one hand, what we might say is too sensitive could also be understood as the culture being made safe for people who didn't feel safe

in the culture before. The example that comes to mind for me is it's one that has to do with your life. You have a trans son, right? Mm-hmm. And so the sensitivity around how people talk about transgender people and, you know, what they say and how we think about transgender people, that is directly related to a change in the culture that allows your son to live the life that he wants to live. Absolutely. These things are connected. So how do you see that connection? Like on the one hand, what you're calling the sensitivity, on the other hand, how a culture actually changes. I'm working on a beautiful hour about that, about the transition. And as a parent that went through it, I think I have something to say that forwards the agenda of that kind of unconditional love and acceptance for your child and for others.

I went through it. And the transition wasn't was my transition, going from opposing what they wanted to do to complete acceptance. And it was the five stages of grief. I felt like I was losing my daughter. My daughter was dying in my eyes. And so I speak about this from a true perspective, and I take you through the five stages of grief

and midway through the act after denial, after anger. And when I get to bargaining, that's when the whole set flips because the people that are angry and in denial, they're all on my side as the parent at first. And I'm talking in complete ignorance, because that's what a lot of people are. And then the whole set takes a complete 180, because it's about me getting to acceptance. And I become a cautionary tale for the people that may be going through this

of how you can get through this. Try to get to acceptance as quickly as possible. It took me all of a week. That's all. It sounds like a busy week. It was. It was. Well, I was like,

no, you can't do this. You can't do that. I'm not supporting it. I was that guy. I was that guy. And I'm ashamed to say it. Because in my eyes, I was protecting my child. Now understanding that all I was doing was creating distance.

And that's not fair to them. Who the F am I to stand in this person's way and tell them what's right for their life? I'm a parent. And the only thing I can do as a parent is be an example to love my child and hope that other parents do the same. So did your experience with your son and understanding what your thought process was, the five stages, you know, and how you reacted to... What pronouns does your son use? He and they. Right, so reacting to what they were going through. Did that change or affect your thinking at all about comedy and who gets made fun of when and how and when to push buttons?

Yes and no. I think a comedian has the right to have their point of view, just as people have their right to have their point of view. I don't get offended by anybody's humor. I think, look, Don Rickles did a lot of racist jokes, but man, he was really funny. That was a really funny racist. I'm part comedian, right?

So before I'm even like black or a man, I'm a comedian. I'm all for comedians developing their point of view, no matter how ignorant, small, inconsiderate, dark. They have to do this. Because if nobody tries to find the funny, then society's missing out on humor. There are certain comedians, I'm thinking of, you know,

Ricky Gervais, Dave Chappelle, where it seems like to them, material about transgender people, it's the taboo that they need to keep pushing at to show that they're willing to push at a taboo. I don't think it's the taboo that they're pushing at. They just want to say what the hell they want to say. And who are you to tell me what I can say and not say? Dave is a friend of mine. I have a trans child. I'm not going to not be Dave's friend because of his point of view. I went to see his shows. We've had several conversations about things. He knows I have a trans son, but that doesn't change the fact that, hey, he got an

hour on this that he wants to do from his point of view and he has every right to do it. Me and my child had this conversation and they understood. You know,

they may feel that way, but I said, as a comedian, he has every right to say what he wants to say and try to find the humor in what he's saying. I don't think his intention is to make you feel bad.

I think he's just trying to protect his right to say what he feels. We don't have to think alike. You're still my friend. I learned from you. There's things I learned from you. And hopefully through conversations, we could come to the fence and disagree on some things, but we affect change in each other. And that's life. And I think we have to learn to laugh again. We're heading to a very sad place

when we can't laugh anymore. But you know, I really think the idea that we don't laugh anymore is just fundamentally wrong. Like, I think, you know, if you take social media as an example, social media is just joke after joke after joke, like funny meme after funny meme. To me, the question is really, like, what are those jokes saying? And are they... Who's telling the joke?

Who's telling the joke, and what are they trying to convey with the joke? I think that feels to me like the more germane question. People don't tell the same jokes they used to at work. There's no water cooler talk anymore. You know what I mean? When's the last time you were at a water cooler? I got one in my house. Was your assistant laughing at your jokes?

Oh, good for you. No, but I think even now when you walk on sets it's like everybody's tight nobody wants to offend nobody wants to say anything nobody was what we're a bunch of robots just walking around where there's no joy that's why i love performing on a stage because it's a reminder to me that people still want to laugh. There's nothing like that elation that you get. It's a high that you get when you don't know if this joke that I'm about to say is going to offend everybody or they're going to walk out or they're going to boo me or they're going to hate this.

And you tell it and everybody cracks up and you're like, whew, it's just when you get into the corporate setting or you go sometimes when you go home, it's just when you get into the corporate setting or, or you go, sometimes when you, when you go home, it's safety again. But now, even then, you can't say that.

You can't say that you got your kids telling you, dad, that's inappropriate. That's inappropriate to you, you little fucker. To me, it's perfect. I pay the rent here.

I'm going to say what I want. I'm okay. It's okay for me to be inappropriate. My inappropriateness has paid for your college. You know, you talked earlier about changes in kind of what's considered funny or what we expect of comedians. And I was thinking about that in the context of your hit movies, you know, which come out of the tradition of like Mel Brooks films or, uh, Zucker Abrams, Zucker films. Those were hits. Those were moneymakers, you know, you,

you made them cheap and you made a lot of money on them. But those kinds of films are also really not in vogue anymore. And it seems to me like both in standup and in just in film comedy, generally, there's always the idea that the comedy has to be kind of like about something in addition to being funny. Like, it can't just be a funny movie. It also has to be about a larger theme. And I'm curious to know, like, why you think the kind of comedies that you made your name with fell out of vogue. What's changed? Well, if you look at Hollywood for the past 10 years, there hasn't been a lot of comedies, period. Because Hollywood, everything is cyclical. They were chasing the superhero. They were

chasing the blockbuster. And I'm very patient because they're going to make comedies again. But I think the people that's going to make the comedies are the people that know how to make the comedies. They keep trying to make like these scary movies. The audience is like,

that don't taste like the Wayans i'm not going because they know we know how to tell these jokes there's a family recipe that we've had you can't replicate what we do it's just we know you can have all the seasonings you don't know how much to put on it wait are you are you uh is the new scary movie that they just announced that irritating to you? No, I mean, you know, it's not the first time we've heard it. You know, so if they want to waste $50 million, go for it. Do you get a check from that? No, that's a whole other conversation.

I'd like to say that, you know, those Weinsteins, they... They wasn't just... They raped everybody. Not the same. Business-wise. Not the same. Business-wise. Not the same. Business-wise. Literally and business-wise.

We all got a little taste. They were some terrible people. Good example of an offensive joke. Depends on the audience. Damn, Dave, you're sensitive. I'm going to take you to a Ricky Gervais show and a Dave Chappelle show. I'm just going to sit next to you

and watch what you go, oh, God. Wait, do me being sensitive in a white guy voice. Oh, God, you can't say that. Christ. Jesus, hey, you can't say that. Christ. Jesus, eh? Christ. That's inappropriate. You know what's crazy?

What's crazy, Marlon? Like, no, I think, like, even when you go on stage, right, and you say a certain topic, immediately, sometimes, you feel The audience tighten up Yeah And then your job as a comedian Is To basically

Beat them into submission Until They either lighten up Or they tighten up so much that you leave they tight asses right there and you say goodnight. Just before we go, I know you got to get ready for a party.

Can you tell me a funny party story from your life? A funny party story? Yeah, a party story. I feel like you've been to a few parties. I've been to too many parties. Oh, man. Oh, I saw Tupac 20 minutes before he got shot. And ironically, I saw Biggie 20 minutes before he got shot.

I mean, it's not funny, but what a coincidence. Wait, is that true? In both instances? Yeah. Holy moly. That's not funny. 20 minutes from now, you may get shot. Here's the thing.

And then you laugh. He's a sick man, David. Oh, wait, can I try an offensive joke on you? Go for it. So you had 58... I just thought of this one. Go for it. You had 58 loved ones?

Yes. Diaries? You ever think the problem is you? Are you contagious? They want to get the hell away from me. You had 58 loved ones? Yes. Diaries? You ever think the problem is you? Are you contagious? They want to get the hell away from me. 58 people? Or wait, I can keep going.

60 if you include Tupac and Biggie. There you go. Are you counting anyone that you just admire as a loved one? Like you see a, oh, Tina Turner died. Oh, she's number 55. No, she wasn't one of the people some of those people were like chadwick was a friend that was the hard one yeah you know i i swear like it's it's crazy like when you think about how many people have passed this and that's what made me do the special because i feel like we need to laugh about it. I needed therapy.

It was therapy for me. I still hurt. But man, the last time I cried about my mom and my dad was only on set recently. And that's because my director, he's a sick man. And he wanted to incite some feelings and he said just think about how proud your mom and dad are of you right now and I thought about I thought about how I showed up

in their absence from our family and how I was able to help bury them, help my older siblings get through, help my nephews and my nieces just show up for everybody. Yeah. And I think that's what they raised me to be. And that's what they'd be proud of. Well, I appreciate you showing that emotion now. I can see your tears in your eyes. And, you know, I'm sorry that you're going through that,

but it's really good for me, for this podcast, if you cry maybe a little bit more audibly. I'd really appreciate that. I like you. You're going to be my friend, Dave. You're going to be my friend. But, you know, thank you for that openness. I appreciate it. You just want to leave on a high note. But that was a joyful cry. I do miss them, but I know they would be proud.

But Marlon, I'll talk to you later this week. Yes, sir. After the break, I call Marlon back to revisit that Weinstein joke and talk a little bit more about parenthood. I can't say what I am as a father. They can say what I am as a father. And when I'm gone, I hope I left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. What a flaw.

I wasn't able to show up. I hope they left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. What a flaw. I wasn't able to show up. I hope they forgive that. Hi, Marlon. How are you? I'm good, man. So, you know, I was thinking about a very specific moment from our conversation where I asked you about no longer being involved with the scary movie franchise. And you mentioned Harvey Weinstein, who, you know, I guess you believe kind of strong-armed you out of the series.

And when you brought it up... Actually, it was Bob and Harvey. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. But it was clear you were loading up a joke, and you had this pause where I think you were thinking about then whether to say the joke. And I want to know if you can tell me, like, in your head in that moment, when you have the, like, the potentially offensive joke lined up, what is actually going through your head in that pause?

Who's my audience? And I heard you cringe on the other thing, the monkey joke, and I was like, meh. But I was going to say, you know, he doesn't just rape women. He rapes s**t too. Trust me. We did business with him. Yeah.

Do you see your response? Do you see your response? I call that, we call that, me and my brother, we'd'd be in the writer's room or we'd be in network notes. And, you know, we've always been edgy with our humor. Always. That's just how we do it. Right? And so when people have that reaction, like, oh, God, you know that little thing you do?

Yeah. We used to call that getting on a whitey bike. It was like brothers would crack up at that, but white people were like, I don't know about that, and they'd start pedaling backwards. You know what's funny, though? I'm not... I don't know if the whitey bike

is actually the bike I ride on, because... It's the fact that you said it made me laugh. I'm not offended, you know, but there is the thing where it's like when somebody says the taboo thing, where you go like, oof, I don't know, are you allowed to say that? But that's different than taking offense, you know what I mean? But what is taboo? When you've been in a situation, for me, right, once again, I can talk about things

from a different perspective. And when I talk about Bob and Harvey, and I say that it's because there's damage there, I can go into a whole nother article about the scary movie franchise. And you guys are like, oh, I see why he said what he said, because we have been victims in that way, but in business, not physically, but in business. And, you know, I think a monster is a monster, and those monsters showed up in business as well. Yeah. You know, in the Good Grief special, you talked about how you learned to be a man from your dad. But I'm curious about what you learned about manhood and masculinity from your son. That sometimes you have to work your femininity. It's okay to be in touch with your feminine.

It's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to express yourself. It's okay to unstrap from your masculinity and your ego. And sometimes that takes you not to, you know, to have a different approach. And sometimes it's not about trying to teach them. Maybe God's trying to teach you something. And so it taught me to be a lot more accepting and unconditional and even forgiving of myself.

It's okay to have stupid thoughts. It's okay to forgive yourself for having a point of view that's not completely popular or evolved. It's okay to have those small feelings, those insecure things, those egotistical thoughts that's like, nah, I think I can control everything. And then God breaks you down and life breaks you down. And when you realize that you are, you crumble and you're on your knees, that's when God can just whisper to you. And you're like, oh, that's what you're trying to teach me. And I'm very grateful to my child. I love that baby because that's my first born. And I can't say what I am as a father. They can say what I am as a father. And when I'm gone, I hope I

left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. Whatever flaws I wasn't able to show up, I hope they forget that. You've referred a couple of times to hearing God or God talking to you. Do you remember

the last thing God said to you? Or the last thing that you remember, feeling like it was coming from God? For me, my God speaks to me every day. He's in everything I do, even in my jokes, even in my experience, even in the darkness, God gave me a gift, which is to stay joyful through dark things. He gave me a gift and I'm going to give that gift as much as I can, as long as I can. And that will be my life identity is that in the worst moments, I was able to try and find a smile and hold my hand up through the rubble and go, Hey guys, take this one with you. Well, Marlon, you know, geez, Louise, you got a salty mouth, but I just think you're a heck of a guy. Geez, Louise is my favorite.

I'm going to keep your number, bro, because anytime I need the white guy voice. It's been a darn pleasure talking to you. A darn tootin' time. or that the negotiations were cutthroat. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devin Yelkin. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme.

Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Isaac Jones, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. Next week, my co-host Lulu Garcia Navarro speaks with Charlemagne Tha God.

If me as a black man, if I criticize Democrats, then I'm supporting MAGA. But if I criticize, you know, Donald Trump and Republicans, then I'm a Democratic shill. Why can't I just be a person who deals in nuance? I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.