The Interview - 'Popcast': Gracie Abrams on ‘Daughter From Hell,’ Internet Cruelty, Writing With Paul Mescal, & Audrey Hobert

Episode Date: July 4, 2026

'The Interview' is taking the 4th of July weekend off, so we're sharing an episode of 'Popcast' that features Gracie Abrams. She discusses the inspiration behind her new album, "Daughter From Hell," out July 17, her new single "Look At My Life," collaborating with boyfriend Paul Mescal and longtime friend Audrey Hobert, opening for Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo, navigating the internet as a young star, and more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, it's Lulu. We're taking the 4th of July weekend off, but we will be back next weekend, and it's going to be a great one. David's interview with Mick Jagger. In the meantime, I wanted to share a conversation from another great New York Times podcast, Popcast. If you don't subscribe, you really should. The show covers all aspects of pop music and hosts John Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli have had so many great guests on lately. I'm jealous, including MIA, Jack Harlow, and Lerner, and Ler. I'm jealous, including MIA, Jack Harlow, and Ler. Luke comes. Today we're sharing their recent conversation with singer-songwriter Gracie Abrams, which I think you'll really love. Have a great holiday and enjoy. There are a lot of verses about being high. Yeah.

Daughter from hell. Dot.com. Welcome to the New York Times popcast. I've actually done that more than once or twice, if we're being honest. Of weekly culture chat, John Caramonica, I'm the critic. I'm Joe Coscarly. I'm the reporter.

I'm Gracie Abrams and I am on podcast. That's right. Gracie Abrams here with us today. That's right. That's right. Thank you guys for bringing me. She said it with her chest too. She meant it.

I'm going to do a quick rundown of your CV. Of your life. Of your life and TV and then we'll get rolling. Gracie Abrams is a Grammy nominated singer-songwriter, getting ready to release her third full-length album, Daughter from Hell on July 17th. beginning with the pandemic era minor EP. Gracie has become known for quote unquote sad girl, confessional bedroom pop.

Wow. Is that fair? A tackle from the crowd. Is a sad girl? Do you consider that a genre? I've seen, you know, people, I am a girl. And there have been sad song. And you've been sad.

I'm just a girl. That's people amongst us, really. Yeah, let them say it. On songs like, that's so true. Looking in a big blue eyes. Did it just to hurt me and make me cries? Risk. God, I'm actually invested.

Think I really want that. And I love you. I'm sorry. I love you. I'm sorry. A proud acolyte of Taylor Swift. Gracie has opened for her idol on the Ares tour. Hey, Gracie, you got to come out and see this.

The pair were nominated together for their duet. Us for a Grammy. From Gracie's previous album, The Secret of Us. in 2024. You never read up on it. It's shade good. A verse of the year before that,

you were nominated for Best New Artist at the Grammys. You've been selling out arenas all by yourself. This new album written and produced with your longtime collaborator, Aaron Destner,

has collaborations with Boni Vair, Marcus Mumford, a very special co-writer, who I think we'll talk about later. Yes.

The first single Hit the Wall is out now. But I wanted to start with the title of this album, Daughter From Hell. We just met, but you seem like a very polite, well-mannered. Are you on unusually good behavior? Successful. Yes, I decided to be decent for you all. You've made a name for yourself.

You've been nominated for some awards. You seem to be winning at life. Like, where does this version of you? as a daughter from hell, like, where does that stem from? Because I don't, I don't see it. Well, that's a good thing to hear. Thank you. Wow.

Thanks, guys. I feel, well, the song, the title track was written toward the end of the process of making the album. It felt like the first time I was able to write a song, but really like write anything other than a text apologizing to my mom for being so brutal. Growing up and obviously, Adoles. Since is tough for the child and for the parent. I think my mom and I had like, we earned our relationship we have now for sure. She is like my favorite person.

And we FaceTime like I call her like six times a day. It's one of those things. Again, everything you're saying makes it sound like a great daughter. Well, listen, it just took so long to get to this point. And I feel I feel like as I have. have grown up. I have luckily had more time to reflect on change and I owed her a big fat. Sorry and thank you. And yeah, I was just, I don't know, it was not all. It wasn't always lovely. Like when I look back on my difficulties when I was younger, I think the things that I was

often pointing at my parents and being frustrated about were actually just things that I was going through, it wasn't necessarily directly connected to parenting. Yes. Does that resonate for you? I think because they knew me very well, and so their radar for when things were off, or if I was, yeah, being like a total bitch, they're like, you're being one. I feel lucky to have grown up in the house that I did with the parents that I did for a million reasons, but specifically the way that they chose to deal with friction and conflict in our

house was very much unlike how I would see it happen in other families, which I think there can be some sweeping under the rug of hard conversations that take longer in the moment, but that you ultimately, if you're lucky and stick with each other, can break through to the other side. And I think my whole family, we are all so, so close. And it's such a privilege to be, you know, entering my adulthood and to have that be true. And I know it's because of all of the... Disinfecting, as it were. That's a great word for it.

Yeah. No, that's interesting. Yeah. I think we should say for our listeners of yours who don't know, your father, J.J. Abrams, for many people associated with Star Wars, I guess. Alias? For me, that's what I was going to say. The creator of aliens.

Is it an alias spot? Yeah, respectful. I'll tell him you said that. No, but we're telling them right now. A classic show. Salute. Lost, et cetera. We don't have to list his whole resume.

Your mother also works in entertainment alongside him. Did you play them in this song, specifically your mom and what was her reaction when she got to hear it? I did play it for her. The night that we made the song, I was in the bath and she was on, we were face-diving. I was like propped up and I played it for her over the phone like phone into laptop and she was just like

I hate the distortion on the guitar I can't hear anything it is they are the crunchiest guitars it's a beautiful baritone on this album yeah on this album like by far they're crunchy for sure but she in fairness couldn't hear anything I was trying to get her to hear

so I then sent it and she did cry which meant a lot to me. I know. Anytime there's any reaction in that capacity, I feel like, you know. But she did. And I think, you know, I've, we've communicated prior to that song being written,

but, you know, my apologies, like laundry list of just probably taking years off her life. And I think she received it in the way I hoped she might. There's nothing in the song, that specific song, that you haven't expressed to her in other format or were there certain things that you feel

could only come out in this format? I had never, I wasn't going into that song, that session that day, thinking of, this wasn't like a song, I was like, I need to write the song. But when Aaron started ripping on the guitar, it just did that thing. I was listening to David Byrne talk about this with Louis Thruh, that he was saying that,

that sometimes, it's the music that you hear in the room that makes you recognize a feeling that you have not been looking at that just kind of burles up. It unerfs it. Yeah, so that was the experience writing that

song and I was really hardcore weeping in a way that I haven't writing a song in a long time and there are, you know, some descriptors and like I think there's a softness and like that song in particular while it

is a love letter and a thank you note. It also is, I think, presents personal anxieties about never achieving kind of the quality of person that I know my mother to be. And I don't think I've ever said that to her directly before. And it was nice to, you know, vomit that up. Were you a real hellion as a teenager? That's what I feel like, you're like, what did she do? No, just like, were you a real alien?

I just was, it wasn't like the craziest shit you've ever heard, but there was lots of sneaking out and lots of, I think the oxygen in our house was being taken up in different places where like also as the middle child. I don't know, do you guys have siblings? I have a younger sister. John's an only child. Duh. Classic.

I could have told you that. Okay, yeah, okay. But you're a middle child. So that's, that's a specific. thing. And the only girl, and I feel like the like speed at which I was, you know, I felt like socially ambitious, but also weirdly like, there were just like lots of these contradictions and I think I would sometimes put myself in positions that were actually unsafe that I think I probably thought I was hiding more successfully than I was. And therefore, if you're a young kid,

I think especially growing up in L.A., there's like, I don't know, there's like maybe more access to things earlier on where like if I put myself in my parents' position, I would also be like scared shitless at times, you know? So, so, you know, it was just, it was just lots of lying. And you were pushing back sort of, it sounds like, against the safeness of the home that you had where it sounds like. Like you guys were communicating and loving. Yeah. And also all like, you know, other frictions that are not my business to like talk about. But just the kind of like just how it is in any household, I think there's like so much going down all the time. You're sometimes fighting to find your own lane.

And for me that that included like a total rejection of being around my family. You know what I mean? And I think if you're a pre-year. teen into your like teenage years. That's probably a frightening. It's like frightening for parents. Totally. This album and the last one seem to be about working on what it means to bloom into your full adult self.

There's another song on this album, Look at My Life, that also has this sort of disaffection, some angst, some insecurity that I think tracks through a lot of your music. and you have this closing line, like, got what I wanted. It doesn't sit right. At the same time, it's, you know, you've achieved so much already. And I wonder when you're still reaching for something in these songs, when you're still feeling that sort of teenage angst that a lot of us never grow out of, like, what is it that you're still wanting and reaching for that makes it so all that you've done doesn't feel like enough?

Um, I weirdly would say that it doesn't feel like teenage angst went with a place that I wrote that song from. Like I was in college for one year at Barnard and took a leave of absence and I sometimes, like there's so much life and so much beyond my wildest dreams has gone down in the past handful of years that I, or it's hard for me to wrap my head around. I also think that sometimes I think about what learning did I miss out on that might be integral to my development as a person on this planet, not just like as a musician, but like as a friend and a family member and like a, you know, like corny, but like global citizen. I'm like not that college is the place you get everything you need to know, but there was something about that that I feel like part of. that songwriting process I know is coming from that place. And then at the same time, if we're like looking at just that song, I know it probably sounds like I'm like down about the whole thing. It does.

It's really not the case. If no one's told you. That's not the reality. I think like for all of us, we probably find ourselves to an ex-ex, especially doing, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but there's like something fishbowl-esque about perception with a platform. form and I think it's also like...

Joe can't leave the house. I literally can't. I know. I just need way more therapy. Exactly. No, but totally. I think there is something about the perception piece that also feel strange as I do grow up and learn that there are like I was a bedroom dwelling teenager in many ways.

I was I was introverted and there's something that about the amount of energy that it takes which I love giving, but that there's like a, my social battery or something, I feel like it drains quicker than other people's sometimes and I will find myself being like, fuck. Sure. I agree. Yeah, like it's just a, it's a strange thing. And then I'm like, ooh, like. A hard job for an introvert that you've chosen.

Yeah. Are you that way? You seem very socially able. I'm fine to yell at whoever's in front of me. You know, I'm a passionate guy. I guess it would be hard to do the job you guys have if you were like, I can't look at you in the face. Yeah, we've gotten acclimated over the years. I didn't, like, set out in my career to be whatever this is.

But also, yeah, being a writer is very different from being in front of a microphone. I mean, no, that I did set out to me. But I just, I never had to associate it with the optics of it. Yeah, yeah. And there was a freedom in that. And then the change in the last two or three years, at least for me, has been striking. But I think I'm now coming back around. I think I'm like, no, no, no, I'm fully liberated.

But now I'm just like, oh, is this my superpower actually? Like now I'm just like, oh, like. You grew out of this very vibrant emerging cultural scene in Los Angeles. And then a bit in New York, as you're alluding to your year at Barnard. You know, your co-writer, a longtime friend, Audrey Hobert. Yes. Has been a friend since you guys were kids. Yeah.

your teenage boyfriend was working for Benny Blanco, became a hit writer on his own. That's Blake Slacken. You know, you guys were around Kid Leroy and Omar Fetti, Addison Ray, Tate McCrae, like this whole. Emerging class. Yeah. What was it like to be part of this like very hungry, very driven ecosystem at such a young age and then watching everybody come into their power? Yeah. It was so cool.

in real time. He knew it was cool. Like you could feel the intent of the... Like, oh, my friends aren't popping. Well, I think it was really just that like when Blake and I met, I was 15. And he was my first collaborator. And he was always as amazing as he is. Like, he was just so committed and so passionate and was Benny's intern at the time.

So it would be like my introduction. to, you know, Benny's world was like, we'd be, I'd tag along while Blake is like running an errand and we'd drop stuff off at Benny's house. And there was this eclectic mix of artists from all different lanes, you know, not just musicians, but like amazing chefs and sculptors. And like, it was such a crazy thing to see, like, despite having come from the household that I did, I think, like, nothing when you're a kid is less cool than what your parents are doing no matter what. Like even if like now I can appreciate like that that was what a gift to have grown up with like learning that vocabulary and all that. This was like the thing I cared about the most and it was like having this magical like door into Narnia and you're like hell. Like and everyone was there because they loved each other and everyone just wanted to make things. And then you know like a couple years go by and it is everyone you just listed like.

everyone our age, really working hard. And that's what I learned from Blake, just the discipline of the whole thing. And he learned it from obviously the best. And so I feel like I was just so lucky to absorb their kind of grit for it. And I also always felt like a bit of an observer because even the kind of music that I was writing was like not as heavy. you know, necessarily, and I really did just feel like, I'll be here, you know what I mean? It's me strumming in the corner while they're making like pop smashes. Well, while they're making stay.

You know what I mean? And it's, but it's the, it is the, it is one of the most amazing feelings ever to like all these years later, like Bieber and Leroy at Coachella are playing that song. And it's like that, like, I don't know. You're like, that's my youth. Yeah, it's just. But just as Blake's youth. Yeah.

Like I think it's an amazing. I went to run into Tate last week here. Like people, I'm very, and obviously Addison, like, your guys' conversation was amazing. Thank you. One of her, one of our favor. She's the greatest. So anyway, in short, yeah, very bizarre and lucky to grow up around that. Given that you say, I'm in the corner, you know, watching this kind of like explosion of pop.

And you're sort of finding your songwriting voice and exploring a different path. But on the other hand, did it at least make the whole thing seem plausible? You weren't strumming your guitar in the back of a, you know, two-bedroom apartment in Oklahoma City. Yes, a million percent. I also think, like, that growing up in L.A. period, it's like not a radical concept to pursue the arts as an adult. Like that alone being kind of normalized. and also L.A. being a hub for culture in the way that it was, as in like every tour comes through L.A.

or like there's amazing, like, even, you know, like street performances or like the museums are incredible. So you get these great exhibits. Like it was just rich with inspiration ultimately. Top five L.A. Buskers go. Well. That's the hard question. That's why they pay us.

And what was your New York time? Like you and Audrey were roommates in New York. Yes. What was your college experience? And what did you take back with you to L.A. from New York? Well, I was just really excited to get, I think, in the way that my, like, mildly, like, rebellious, for lack of a better word, instincts as a kid. Like, when it came time to potentially go to college, it was like...

Far away as possible. And Audrey's the year above me. She was year above me in school. So she went to NYU. She had an apartment. I moved into the dorms at Barnard. Audrey, I had a key to her apartment. And I was basically kind of like every other night sleeping in Audrey's.

We would share a full bed. And it was like the total, it was just the total dream. Like it was full of music. Our relationship has always been sort of centered around music before we ever. decided to, or yeah, started writing anything together. And I think it was just deliberating to actually have independence in that capacity in this city, where, you know, having come from L.A., it's also spread out. This just felt like everything was immediately right there.

And there was just lots of running around. It was like we were smoking a lot of weed and like listening to music kind of in a new way where you're then like walking down the street completely alone and your family's. nowhere near and it just felt that it felt like that cliche thing yeah it was that cliche thing it happened to me too yeah where did you move from i grew up in florida so it was sort of the opposite which is i came here because i had been totally deprived of culture in central florida yeah and i knew i needed to be in new york as soon as possible to have those same experiences but not just away from my family and everything i'd grown up with but because it was like a promised land of all those things

you were describing in LA of music scenes and museums and and then plus blogs yeah blog yeah they didn't have blogs in Florida so yeah they didn't have them were you taking school seriously or was it yeah yeah I loved it I wanted to make it just a pretense no no no I'm still on my leave of absence so I'm returning to my head I'm on my leave of absence for my PhD too are you yeah from where it's Goldsmiths that's one of the University of London campuses cool so I'm on 25 years of Eve of absence. That might be me, but when I went to like file the paperwork,

they were like, we had someone come back when she was 80. Shut. So I'm. Oh, so you can still, you can like hold that spot. I'm holding out. I really am holding out. But I wanted to major in international relations. And I took a ton of classes because freshman year you're kind of free to explore.

And I loved it. I loved it so much that it was, it was. I was very, it was bittersweet to leave. I was so hard to like once the music started to leave. But also, you know, I think when I had started posting like snippets of songs that I was writing like in real time, very kind of reactively in high school, there were all of these people reaching out, you know, that when I'm like, mom, look, she's like, that's a creep. Like you're not going to visit that label. You're like, okay. You're like, Mom, that's Lord.

Not a great. It's like, it's literally Lord. Correct. That happened, right? Yeah, that did happen. That did happen. That did happen. And, but anyway, so then eventually, when I was in, when I was in college and I was, I went back to meet with Interscope again.

And they, they, I was just, I figured it was a good time to see, to see if, if it would. But I want to talk a little bit more about. your partnership with Audrey, you guys write a lot of songs together. She's a co-writer across most of your previous album. And then you got to watch her career take off in the way that it has, her solo career, which has, I assume, meant that she didn't write with you on this album. All but one. Right. And I want to talk about mini bar, a great one.

A throwback, Gracie Audrey, classic. But what was it like to sort of launch at different. speeds and in different directions and then take this step apart as things are going so well for each of you. Weirdly, it's felt super in line with the way that our friendship has kind of always operated. Like, when we met, we didn't go to the same school. Then we did and we'd hang out. Then she went to college. Whenever we're in the same place, we're like entirely inseparable.

Locked in. And then when we are not in the same place, it's like that family thing where you can just, you just pick up immediately when you're back. And it's the like three hour facetime, like once a month, you know what I mean? And the various kind of manic texts for the important shit. But it's been remarkable because we were also then roommates. Sorry, I should mention. Back in L.A.

Back in L.A. when I was touring for two years, we lived together. And that's when we made. the music. And so in this moment, it actually feels like very normal, except I'm so selfishly selfishly happy that she has just blown up in the way she has and that she's on tour because I get to like seek content of my best friend, like crushing. And it feels like home when I see pictures of her and on stage and when I hear her music out in the world. And so it's, it doesn't feel like a radical shift for us, I would say. And you feel like you could come back together for subsequent projects, either on hers or

yours. A million, I mean, forever, like that. She's like, shrewly like family. No, geez. I'm like, don't see that. This isn't just like kind of like two highways weaving in and out. It's just like family. I don't know.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. You described yourself in the injury magazine conversation with Kaya Gerber. Yeah. By the way, I think your best interview that you've done. Good conversation. Shout out Kaya Gerber. Shout out Kaya Gerber.

Really good. Like, good. John just kept being like, I can't believe how good of an interview of Ky Kierber. He's so great. Yeah, no. Do you know her at all? Not personally, but friends are friends of friends. Yeah.

She's brilliant. She, you can tell she reads all the time. Yeah, she's on it. And you don't always get that. Shout out Mel. You know, but like you don't always get that. Shout out Mel. But you described yourself as a scathing writer.

And I wonder if you can talk about what has, what feels to me, especially comparing the last album to this album, two different modes of scathingness. There is the mode on this album, which to me feels maybe a tiny bit more self-lacerating. Whereas on the last album, there is the mode. There is a little bit more, it's a little more playful, it's a little bouncier. Yeah. What's different in you in those two modes? I think just a couple more years of living. Okay.

Skepticism, earned skepticism. Or like just kind of, I feel like this is something that has been embarrassing for me. I think like having music exist out in the world forever after you've kind of personally moved on from the point of view from what you were writing it, where I was in the past, I think, quite careless about the impact of songs. Like being on the receiving end of a song, being written about you can suck. And I think if you're not being sensitive or gentle with the people you're writing about and with, you know, that relationship, it can make someone feel terrible. And I have learned that.

You might want that, though. Like, I'm all for being, like, direct and coloring with as much detail as possible and being honest and, like, let your experience be your experience and put it everywhere. But I do think there's a way to be kind about it. I think you can be honest and I think you can be kind. And I did not believe that maybe in the past. the last album, you don't say. Yeah, and on Good Riddance as well. I think there was just some carelessness.

And I think with this album, and I think it's really fun and it's like an amazing release to write without considering anyone else's feelings. But I also want to be a decent person. And I think that on this album, generally it feels a little bit less like diaristic to me and like mildly more existential, I suppose, as I, am coming into myself, I suppose, I feel like all judgment is a bit of like self-projection a little. And I, on this album, was careful to try to really just write from having been both the protagonist and the antagonist in the songs. You know what I mean? Sort of like, I think it's exciting to me, even.

if it hurts when I see my behavior reflected back to me and other people. And I wanted to explore that and maybe even just having that level of consideration in my brain, which is like maybe even only 10% more than previous years of being alive. Like maybe that seeped into this album. I hope it did. You've done a lot of therapy, maybe? I've done some. Yeah.

You're speaking. You're speaking like a person who has done done some of the work. I've done like emergency therapy. Also who amongst us. Is there a line in particular that you regret when you think back of the way you wrote when you weren't thinking that far ahead? There's a song called Best on Goodridden. I on one hand love that song and on the other hand I feel like such an asshole.

And I really like don't like that I painted things that way, even if I believe them in the moment. You still lie to your face 20 times in a day. I think that there's like, I feel very lucky that writing music for me that kind of outside, whoever's outside the studio, whether it's who I'm writing about or my audience or, or strangers or people who hate me. I'm like, they aren't making their way in yet. And I, and I, so I think it's okay to like, there shouldn't be a filter when you're making anything.

I just do think I am okay keeping some things from coming out if it means you're not harming someone. What this is bringing up for me is if I think about Taylor's mid to late career turned towards fictionalization and abstraction, right? And you do that partly

as songwriting exercise, but you also do it because, or she also does it because after X amount of years of being relentlessly scrutinized and Wikipedia and footnoted and so and so forth, at a certain point it's like,

what if I made a son that was not that. Yeah. How I can create some distance between myself and the sort of commentariat. That's the way you're talking about this sounds similar to me. You want to create a little bit of space between you and the maybe analysis. And some of that analysis might come from the target of the song or the object of the song. And some of it might come from your very, some songs.

Say it. Yeah, yeah. But also for the people who you have millions of people who care about you. and who wish to unearth every detail and truth. Does that resonate for you as a touch point? But like I always was struck by how she described that turn to abstraction as part art, part defense. Yeah, I can't begin to imagine that impulse

because there's like no one on the planet who has kind of like a larger microscope on their life. life, you know, and I'm, I feel very lucky that that's not my reality. Like, I think I'm less so coming from a place of not wanting people to wonder who I might be writing about, but just I, and I think, like, I've always turned to writing as a form, as my form of processing, and typically that's when stuff feels like impossible to put into language in any other way, like where it's easier to write a song than it is to just speak something out loud. And I guess it's less about songwriting actually

And more about the way that I hope I navigate relationships with people Which is like having like taking things less personally And I think it's really fun to write a bitter song And I think it can be really funny to write a better song I think I learned that with Audrey Whose sense of humor is like top tier and whose wit, like, is a part of everything she does. Very biting.

Very biting. And it also, you know, that's my best friend. We have this shorthand in our humor, or we have all of this information about one another that it's really easy, ultimately, to quickly be like, this verse, we're going to talk about how whoever he's sitting across from now is, like, laughing at everything, but thinks he's like the dumbest

to ever walk. You know, that's easy. I don't think that actually in my quiet moments by myself I would so quickly go there. I think I more so in the past have turned to like, it's bad that you loved me.

And I'm like, what the hell? Like I just, I think there's, I think I'm just trying to grow into my music being reflective of where I'm at outside of my music. You're being quite humble about the size of your

audience and the way that people want to put the microscope on your life as well. But I think your audience has only grown. You started already from a place of notoriety just because of how you grew up and who your friends were, et cetera. And I think that's only intensified. And you've been, I think, very pointed about trying to keep some things to yourself, whether that's your relationship with your parents or your love life. Yeah.

And on this album, you're sort of letting both of those things a little bit more into the forefront. We spoke about the title track and singing about your mom. You co-wrote a song on Here with Paul Meskow, your boyfriend, amazing actor. And that's imaginary friend on this album. And that, of course, is going to invite scrutiny into a part of your life that you've tried to keep very separate from your music and your career. Was it difficult for you to go there and say, we're going to collaborate in this very public way? And you're going to use your real men. Right.

Yeah, no. No, pseudonym. No. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. I think it's like, no. I think there's, there's, I don't like the feeling of hiding. I also love privacy where it feels like the right thing.

But no, it's like, you know, that was so fun to write together. It's like, that wasn't some groundbreaking event for us. Like, we have a very creative, you know, home with friends who are, like, so good at what they do. And everyone feels happy to share that with one another. And so, no, I think, I think the scrutiny, it's like I always, like, try to assume the absolute worst case scenario of everything. And then anything else is, like, pleasant. Sure. And I also think it's, it's, if you know how happy your experience was making something or how much you learned about yourself or your partner or whatever the thing is, it's like no amount of hate or trolling or whatever could take that away.

And I think that's like, that is a part of my life that brings me so much peace and joy. And I'm not going to like pretend like that's not true. but I also think it's not like an open door policy, you know. But no. It's not an invitation for. No, but of course I understand. Speculation. Yeah, but also like.

It is what it is. Sure. What does that collaboration look like? Like, what was a, how did that song come to be? Um, just home, just as it sounds. Like, it's such a simple short, you know, song. And it was really just, just us fucking around and trading lines and singing along. Your classic process.

And it was it sort of like midflow in the making of the out? as a whole. Like, because one of the things I was struck by, obviously, most of the songs here, they're written and produced you and Aaron. Right. There's a couple of extra writers here and there, but it's like, it's not disharmonious.

You know, the song, it's not like it didn't come from left field. Yeah, it was in the, it was in the middle of the album making process. So it was, it just did feel natural. And also I was like, I was thinking out loud that day, sort of like, there are so few kind of actual, like, strummers on this album.

And I think coming from Secret of Us, that was like solely, like, we're acoustic guitar girls, you know, like it was very, very much based there. And I kind of wanted the show to have one or two more moments where it could be super small in that way. And so that's what we were talking about. And that's... This album, it's more fingerpicking than strumming. It's like Gothic folk fingerpillar. Aaron Central. Aaron is the mayor of Gothic folk.

That's well put. The other outlier, or more of an outlier, I would say, is the song you did with Audrey Obert, which we alluded to earlier, Minibar, which has a bit more ecstatic. Audrey and Gracie together. Zipier. Energy. Did that come from somewhere else? Got 50 bucks in a brain cell. Yeah.

A great verse about being high, although there are a lot of verses about being high on the song. Yeah. I really like. Top. The lot. But, you know, there's a line about thinking about the hard thing. I was listening to your Young Lean interview. And I not quite.

Say hi to Young Lee. Hello, gorgeous. I just sometimes your nervous system like gets really overstimulated or overwhelmed in any way. That for me has been up and down like a coping mechanism sometimes. Smooth it out. Yeah. Or like, or a panic attack. Or overwhelming.

I've been thinking through the. hard things over light drugs is one of the great things. Turns a phrase on this album. A different song. Thank you. A good drug line. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

Thank you. Light drugs. More people have heard light drugs. Light drugs. Well, you've heard of hard drugs. I've heard it. Yes. No, I know.

So listen. That's good. It's just crazy. No one's done it before. Congratulations. And thank you so much. Mini Bar. I think we wrote that the same week we did that so true in my memory.

Okay. So it is from those sessions. From back in the day. Sessions. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like we were just on the couch. But yes, we had so much fun writing that song.

And there was another song that I think might be on a deluxe edition or something of this that we also did in that same period that is one of my favorite songs I've ever been a part of. And I just like need to get it kind of right. So it's not on this edition. Stay tuned. Yeah, yeah. But it is zippier. That's a good way to put it.

And it's like I do think kind of in the way that I was describing how easy it is to make fun of anything. Like Audrey and I just laugh when we are together in a way that like that doesn't happen to me elsewhere. It's like such a specific alchemy of having known each other for 16 years and our, you know, collaborative relationship. now layered into that, there's just such an intimate knowing of one another. And I think writing songs like Minibar or like That's So True, for example, it's like, just happens so quick and it's such a joy. And she is brilliant beyond measure. I really believe, like, you know, she's just got her special sauce that I admire. I've, I've no, like, it's not news to me. You know what I mean?

And she's been a brilliant writer outside of music since I've known her. She's like her screenwriting is so fucking funny. And like anytime she would write any kind of story, it just, or like in college we would go line for line writing stories out at a bar. Like that was like our joy. And so I grew up with her personal voice kind of soundtracking all these different chapters of my life. And I'm just happy that the rest of the world gets to have some of that. The last thing you said makes me think of something else, which is we alluded to Lord, being internet friends with you early on.

You've been in such direct contact with so many of your pop idols and contemporaries, whether it's Taylor and the heiress tour, as we talked about, opening for Olivia, you know, coming up alongside the other people we named, you know, Phoebe Bridgers, all these people who have been in your. your periphery and also, and also like closely associated with you in your career, do you ever feel like that's been hard to differentiate yourselves from these sort of towering shadows? Obviously, it's good from a attention and business perspective to have a duet with Taylor Swift, et cetera. But is there any part of you that feels like it's made it harder to separate yourself from your contemporaries and your influences? My immediate answer is no and that to me this has been

like the opportunities that I have been granted by artists who have had significantly larger platforms than me, sharing their stage, you know, Taylor and Olivia both in like such meaningful ways. That, to every stage of the,

like, And Lord, for example, you know, being so supportive early on, Phoebe being like such a, I mean, she is just like the writer of our generation in my mind. Like having grown up, you know, with her music in my life and learning from each of these women as really like mentors in many ways. being associated with them in any capacity and with their careers is just a compliment. And I think like my hope and dream, you know, I'll be writing music like if the people will no longer have me forever. But I, but for as long as they will have me, like my hope is to be around for decades. I want longevity. And every chapter thus far I have learned.

I've learned so much more than I ever thought I'd have the opportunity to, and I can credit most of that learning to all the women that you just listed, you know. And so. It feels like a really, it's interesting because it's, on the one hand, it's a very fortuitous time to emerge as a young singer-songwriter, especially a young woman. We talk about this a lot in hip-hop with Drake. It's like for a young rapper who,

never knew life before, you know, if you started, you were seven years old in 2012, you know, it's like just been Drake in the water since you were thinking about what music is. And also, I think that's how we feel about Taylor. It's like Taylor is just in the water at this point. And on the one hand, it's so generative because you're just like, every day you wake up and you're like, well, there's a brilliant person. Like there's a, like, on the other hand, there's the tension of like, I want to do something more indifferent. And I wonder, as you've navigated, it doesn't even have to be in this specific moment,

but when you think back over the course of the last two or three albums, were there tendencies that you had to unlearn? Do you mean like literally, like melodically and things like this? Melodically or songwriting turns, like are there things that you, in your mind, were water and then you step back and said actually their influence, how can I filter them out?

Probably. I wouldn't say consciously, honestly. I think it's like you are what you attend to. And like so much of my life has been, you know, soundtracked by Taylor's albums. And I think like, you know, she's 10 years older than I am. That's like, I think music when you're a kid and film and art of all sorts. Like that before you've experienced things yourself is what allows you to year. You're like, I want that. And so Taylor's music, you know, has always been there for me in that capacity. like um and and and i don't truthfully i can't remember a time where i was ever like ooh that sounds like exactly what's too close no so far so far no but i get what you're saying i think it's also like i think there's two things one like the way that um artists get like put together on like a shelf is like, you know, I understand that. That's like the internet for you. It's a shorthand. It helps people understand like your catalog.

Exactly. Totally. Yeah. And so that doesn't, you know, irk me. And frankly, it's like such an honor, you know, to be on any shelf. You're on the shelf. I'm just happy to be here, guys. I'll just crawl right up.

Yeah. So that's real. It's a good gag. We should do that. Yeah. It's a good gag. Yeah, like figurines. Yeah.

That would be good. A shelving process. You're giving us ideas for the set refresh. Wow. Thank God. And then the other thing is I, like, grew up in a time where, like, Stan culture was normal. And I think, like, unfortunately. It's nuts, but I also understand it because it's, like, before we had this, everyone was like, they're in my head, they're in my head.

And now they're like in the palm of your hand and there's this kind of like access. And I think that I wonder if it's actually more like critics or if it's like fans that drive the grouping. You guys would know. I think it's both. And I think they feed off of each other. And as much as you've benefited from the passionate stand communities of pop internet, you've been on the receiving end of some brutal stuff from them also, whether that's the Nepo baby stuff or just cruel memes that don't account for the idea that there's a human on the other side. Like they can be funny jokes, but also you have to read them.

And probably the way these algorithms work, anytime you're near a phone, they get sent towards you. I know you've probably tried to distance yourself from that. Discipline is a beautiful thing. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what that feels like just as a young woman to be. pilloried in that way in addition to supported. Well, I mean, the NEPO stuff is obviously in the discourse, like, appropriately. So, like, when I sing... You didn't bring your parent to Popcast.

We had to... We have done that. Well, Tujallis was here, brought his dad, was a musician. Yes, yes, yes. Different kind of. Okay, yeah. If my dad were a musician, maybe I'd be right. Come on.

Sorry, guys. Sorry, guys. No, but of course that's been a part of the conversation. And I, like, think about the privilege there. And it's like I had a safety net. And that allowed me the ability to experiment and concentrate. And I had, like, the gift of time to dedicate to doing this thing I loved. I wasn't growing up afraid financially.

And that's, like, the biggest deal. And then the specific household that I was born into with my parents, both having worked in the entertainment industry for as long as I've been alive. Like the way that you overhear your family talking about anything, like at the dinner table or in the car on the way to school, like there is just this vocabulary that I was so lucky to grow up with. So like when I see people pointing that out, it's like I get it hardcore.

The like jokes and things, I also understand the, you know, like, blocking Gracie Abram. I'm like, go crazy. Like, I understand the tone of the internet, you know, I'm on it too sometimes. But I also have like, it is funny when it overwhelms the things you actually want to see. And where you're like, you know, because my name is my name, your algorithm is just naturally being like, you're being like force fed. And I, there are some days where I'm laughing just as hard as the person posting it. And there's other times where like we're all people.

It's like that can't feel good. And I think I'm fascinated these days. There's just like abject cruelty floating. And I think I think when people decide to kind of cash in on that, I worry. for their hearts. Well, and also just the overall tenor of the discourse, you know, when there is consequence-free cruelty, that's really the thing, I think.

And also the ability to aggregate support. Yeah, yeah. From other people without consequences. Yes. That has been, obviously, detrimental to the tenor of public discourse. I feel very lucky doing what I'm lucky enough to do today. I feel support when I'm playing a show. Which is where it counts.

When I'm with my friends. Yeah. I have a suspicion that people who either enjoy or just spend their time that way on the internet, the likelihood of them not getting support elsewhere is quite high. And so I really actually back to the attempting to not take things so personally point. All of what's valid I feel and I know. And also lots of criticism like I've had that thought but 10 times worse about myself already. The Lena Dunham, the Lena version.

The M&M or Lina, depending on when you grew up. Or optimally both. Yeah, the duality. Yes. I can't wait to those two collaborate. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The next book.

I, but so, so, you know, for me, it's like there will, that will never stop happening. And if I'm lucky enough to continue gathering new listeners, I will also be gathering more of the other side of it. Sure. And that's inevitable. So it's like the mental discipline of like not being surprised by that is, important and I also think like forget the personal trolling at times I just don't feel better or I don't feel more interesting when I spend time reading anything really on the internet like truthfully with the exception of your program and like my selects podcast I'm not learning more

than I am when I'm phoned down out in the world and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's like I don't think it's London. I think it might be just this time where I think lots of friends of mine are feeling this switch. Yeah. We've reached the tipping point in some regard culturally. And I don't think people like that feeling. And so I am anticipating all of it. And I can't control it. And I watch popcast and touch grass. That's the takeaway from this episode. After listening to the album and then going back and listening to the prior album, I had two related questions. I wonder if there was a specific version of yourself or a tendency, and it could be musical or it could be personal, that you feel like this album is the one where you've left it behind, where you can identify its presence in 2024, but you know it's not there. And then because you've been willing to speak openly about your relationship with your mother, write a song about it, like you're elevating to some new kind of transparency, I wonder if that went hand in hand with some emerging awareness that you are more than just your parents' child now.

Were those awarenesses or changes or developments intersecting in any way? Does one of them speak more to you than the other? That's such a cool question. The first half of the answer is that I think, I think this album had more, there was more patience with this album as a whole. I think that, especially compared to Secret of Us. I wrote that when I was touring.

Some of this album, Dodger from Hell, we started on tour, but we did most of it when that was over, and it was done for the first time in four years. And I think there was a kind of like white knuckling and the deepest joy of my life happening at the same time when I was touring, but I was really reactive in ways that I hear on The Secret of Us, like a kind of more manic voice than on Daughter from Hell,

which I think, you know, a lot of that I think comes from writing by myself or writing with Aaron, but like the way that we write together, I write all the words myself. You know what I mean? It is very much kind of, it does feel like I'm alone. And I say that as a compliment to him. It can feel like I'm alone when I'm writing the content of the songs. It feels like that matched my internal rhythm at this point. And I think that's a more patient person.

So I think I'm slowly growing to be more patient. and carrying more grace, which is what I want and what I was, you know, raised seeing in my mom. So I think in some ways I feel more attached than ever. That's interesting so. It's sort of a reverse in a way of Mexican, I am my parents.

Well, I would love to become the quality of human beings that they are. And I feel comfortable shedding light on our relationship because for whatever subconscious reason, it came up now. So I'm not like putting a wall between me and what is true for me this year. But maybe I'll regret it. I like that we came back around and ended this conversation where it began. But before we do our lightning round and our twisted snacks that you chose, which I can't wait for.

I'm so excited. You're not going to even look at me. I want to talk about the other new chapter of your life and career, which is that you're going to start an 824 movie. You've talked in the past about how music was your own little refuge away from the entertainment industry of your parents and that you grew up in and that you wanted to pursue music and never film or television in part for that reason. But why is that the right thing for you at this stage in your life and career? The reason it felt correct now is because it was Helena Rain and she wrote the script and is directing the film. And that's the director of Baby Girl and the forthcoming Please from A24 starring Gracey Abrams. Bodies, bodies, bodies, of course.

I met her three years ago through a friend who thought we might like each other and we got breakfast. and it was this like, I felt like I knew her forever. There was just this weird kind of undercurrent that felt. It just felt like this electric thing. I was like, what the hell? And then three years goes by, and then she reached out, and asked if I would want to read her script, which I didn't, when she reached out,

I didn't think she was asking me to read it and potentially auditioned for it. I just thought she wanted me to read it, which I was just, it was the best day ever getting to read her work. And it really moved me so hard, so fast. And I called her back immediately kind of raving. And that started the audition process, which I had never had no experience in that realm. So you had to, even though she's your friend, you had to audition.

Many, many times. Oh, okay. All right. So many times. I'd like to think if Joe wrote a movie, he just, I just think I'd be in it. Well, you guys have a brotherly love. I would like to observe it.

I hope so. It was a whole process, but like every round of audition. Like when she was like, do you want to audition? So scared for my life, but also it was such an amazing opportunity. I felt like the luckiest girl in the world, like coming home that day, going to sleeping. Like, I got to read her words and she was in the room and she's so brilliant. And then when she asked me back, like the same. thing and then the same thing again, the same thing. And I was always just like, how cool that I get

to know what this, this version of the circus feels like. And for some reason, she's letting me try. And it's already very humbling and I'm, I'm thrilled and nervous, of course. It hasn't shot yet. No. Coming soon. Certainly. All right, we're going to hit a couple questions in our Popcast Lightning Round, 52 cards in the podcast deck. You will pick some at random and they correspond to pre-written questions on our computers. So go ahead and we'll pull three, but let's do one at a time. What do you got?

Nine of diamonds. Nine of diamonds. Okay. Okay. How many people's phone numbers do you have memorized? My mom and dad. and the police department. That's good.

That's good. Nobody has ever pulled that third one before. Is that true? In my own. So that's four. Yeah, that's true. Two of those barely count. But you're Gen Z, right?

Do you consider yourself Gen Z? I don't know. Am I? 99? I think you are. Yeah. It's going to go ahead. I'm Gen Z.

All right. Pull another one. Sorry, Audrey. She doesn't know your phone number. Navar. Four of hearts. Four of hearts. War of hearts.

Okay. Oh, shit. What is the song, not by you, that you associate with love? Oh, bless the telephone. Labysifery. Ah, nice. Great. Good pull.

Strange how a phone call can change your day. Take you away, away from the feeling of being alone. Bless the telephone. Have you been listening to that recently, or is that just an all-timer? It's an all-timer for you. For all-timer for you. Since before you ever fell in love? Yes, but I think, like, as you live, everything means more.

But, yes, that's definitely, that's my pick. It's a good one. You're putting the kids on. Tell us in the comments what you think of this stuff. Lab B-L-A-B-I-S-I-M-R-E. That's all right. Six of hearts. Six of hearts.

Okay, sort of the counter, maybe the polar opposite, counterpart to that question. What is the song that you play to blow out your car speakers? Do you have a car? I don't anymore. Okay. Because you blow out speakers. Yes, I broke it. Speechless by Gaga.

Wow. Wow. That's definitely one of my all-time car. Just a rage. It's a har rager. A beast of a song. It's a beast. Should we do five?

Yeah, those are quick. We're speeding through more. Should they be these two that fell? Or is that bad luck? You tell us. Does those feel right for you? I don't know. They kind of, yes, I do.

All right. You want new ones. No, no, no. I want you to follow. I don't. I don't. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

I don't preach. I don't. How about one from the floor and one from the pile? Okay, fine. Fair. Good partnership. Okay. You're kind of like favoring in this side in such an aggressive way.

I don't. Do a money. I don't know, Joe. Ten of heart. Wow. Heart forward. Okay. I mean, I feel like you're pulling, I mean, Candle, I think you're pulling pretty easy questions.

Well, do you want, well, maybe the ones on the floor are like the worst you've ever heard. Ten of heart. Who's a musician? People would be surprised to know that you love. Oh, you got all playlists on it. So whatever, we're building the Gracie Abrams playlist. Surprised to know I love. Yeah.

Something, something real. Do you know who our Sammason is? Okay. Surprised snow I love. We're taking this question out of the... Yeah, this is boring. This is the last ever... You're the last ever person to answer this question.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't find anything so wildly shocking. All right. It's next question. All right. Grace Abrams doesn't like any musicians. You'd be surprised to hear. Sorry. I don't know.

All right. Pick your last card from the floor. Whichever... Yeah, yeah. I have to lean over and change. All right. There's three on the floor. Oh, man.

Middle, why not? All right, let's see. Five of speeds. Whatever, guys. Wow. We really turned Gracie off of the lighting room. Fine. Actually, this is a good one that we have asked before. Okay.

And it's, this is good. What do you do when you can't fall asleep? Oh, oh, God. This is very, very personal for people. This is like a very personal thing. I, I, if I cannot fall asleep, I will eat snacks and I will take a bath. if I have one nearby. At the same time?

Yeah. You eat in the tub? Absolutely. Yeah. Tight. Are you a brain racer like before bed? Uh, or no? Well, I was prescribed beta blockers like a couple years ago.

For on stage? That was the idea. And I find it's helped me off stage too. Like there's, like, it's been helpful. So that's also been good. But I also sort of have a competitive, probably unhealthy thought process where like I know I wouldn't be prescribed them if

the medical professional didn't think I could use them. Well, you could just get them on the internet now. Can't? Yeah, by the way. It's like, there's DTC. Okay. Direct to consumer beta bloggers?

Oh, my God. Pro FDA. Just link. Link down below. We're going to be able to get them at the bodega. At that some point, yeah. That's actually probably real. Is that real?

Oh, wow. Wow. Okay, well, every time I take them, I don't think you can have been competitive with myself. No, no, no, no. I'm not thinking like, oh, God, what's going to? It's not that. It's just I'm like, can I not handle this on my own is where my brain goes. No, but that's part of the reason, like for many years I wouldn't take Ambien because I was like, I'm better than this.

Do you take Ambien often? No, and then I took, no, no, no, then in my mid-30s. Flip the script. No, no, in my mid-30s, I went through a stretch of time where I was like, I was sleeping so badly and up all hours and I was like okay fuck it I give in and then I was literally alphabetizing my CDs at like

530 in the morning like going totally on handian yeah like half I do reverse alphabetize I would I take an ambient on tour it would it would not even

put me to sleep it would just make you loopy possess yeah it like puts you in like the room right before sleep and leaves you there But yeah, so I had to get off and then. The Lord did not want me to be.

I can't believe that exists. It's a lunatic drug. Speaking of lunatic drugs. Oh, geez. Every episode of podcast ends with a snack. Gracie everyone's walked in here and picked two. She couldn't decide whether the sour pickle belts from what I assume was a farm stand in the southwest. Shout out to Amanda Webster, our photo editor.

and these Shalula, Chimoi, rings, watermelon, pineapple, and mango flavored. Canadian. Those are from Sammy in Canada. Shout to Sammy Rice, our couch guy. Wait. These are both snacks, as I told you off camera, that I would buy on my own. And no cameras. And both snacks that I would avoid.

We're divided. We're going to eat both of them right now. You start with the sour pickle, and I'm going to open these. Chimoy rings. What's your palette like? It's like a seven-year-olds. Okay.

It's like a really mature seven-year-olds. It's fine. No, it's not. All right, John. I mean, I love pickles, but I love pickles a lot. Yeah, can we require

smell test? Yeah, we always smell. Smell first. But like, okay, I these are, Is there a right order to eat these in? I think so.

I go savory, then those are going to be sweeter. Ah, although these are spicy. Oh. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, you're going to be so mad. And sick. I like how this. You don't like this?

Did you like this? I love the smell, yeah. Oh, my God. The problem with the new wave of pickle-flavored candy is that most of it is not pickle enough. It's just green. But this one really smells like pickle. He's going to hit that whole thing. John, some pickles.

You're going to be super sad. No. You guys are wild. This smells so acrid. Do you want to do this one first and this will probably be maybe a little more normal? No. All right. Pickle first.

Are you doing full? I'm going to take a big bite. I don't know. Pickle. It tastes like jerky. Oh, wow. Strong pickle flavor. Mm.

Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Oh, my God. Actually. Oh, my. Do you have to swallow it? You do whatever you want. I'm trying to like it really bad.

It's like one of those survivor challenges where you eat the bug. Now I like it. It tastes good at the end. Oh my God. Okay, it kind of finishes okay. It's nice. The afterteases actually lovely. The beginning was really rough.

I still keep getting like a chilled hum it. Are we going to rate them at the end or we're going to rate one at a time? I think we should rate the pickle. While it's fresh. That is an incredible snack. It's a nine out of ten. Don't believe these liars. Did you say nine?

What did you say? It's so good. I think it's so good. I'm going to be all right. You guys are winning. No, now you like that. No, I didn't give a number. I didn't even go.

But you made a crazy face. Well, initially, it grew on me. I would say it's a seven for me. Because I think it's a seven. It's very original. Yeah, I guess what are the, what are we scoring on? It's just vibes. Yeah.

Just, yeah. It's, look, in the first five seconds. Yeah. It was a two. Absolutely agree. Do you like pickles? No. Oh, you don't eat pickles?

No, this is not, no. I love pickles and I agree in the first few. It started really. Pickley. But it level, it's like a 5.5 to me. Okay. It leveled out. Okay.

It like went up to like a seven and then it's settled at like a five and a half. I think we should all go with the one. You want the light. Okay. So we can match. Yeah. What are we doing? The flavor.

That. Okay. Joe's got one that's a little different. Yeah. Jesus. Perfect. Mm-hmm. Don't lie.

Oh, it's fine. Really? That's so nice. That's fine. Pineapple, yeah? Pineapple. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

A little tang. And then what's going on on the other side? Really good. It's got, I like when gummies have, you guys know the tang fastics. Oh, yeah. That have the marshmallow and then the, that's like kind of what's happening here. Yeah, definitely one is the marshmallow side. Is this coconut, do you think?

All right, we'll try the watermelon. These are good. These aren't, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, lacking spice. Yeah, I was going to say like for a Chilula snack. Everything that is advertised in this is a thing I do not like, but the snack itself does not deliver those things. It's like just a totally fine.

You don't like the watermelon. Not as much at all. And also, this is medium. So maybe they do bump it up. It's two out of three chili peppers. It's two of three chilies. But it's not spice. No spice.

You know, I hate spice. Yeah, no spice. Like I literally visceral. cannot handle spice. Whoa. Cannot at all. I love spicy food. These are tasty.

They're good. I actually, I'm going to have another one of these. The Canadians know what they're doing with their gummies. This advertises as a far more extreme thing that actually is. Yeah, it's not extreme. Far more thing. I'm saying eight.

It's an eight for me. I'd eat the whole bag. Yeah. It's a, it's a, I'm not like thrilled by it. I actually don't even want to finish a second. But it's a really, From a gummy perspective, I find it really sturdy.

It's not too chewy. It's not too stiff. We ate some other Canadian gummies recently that we were really impressed with. Sweet or sour? They're actually on the table. We'll show you. They're on the table. We'll show you the extra pack.

Thanks. I think you're on a roller coaster with these. I actually don't like this anymore. Wow. Wait, what's happening? The watermelon turned her off. I don't know, but I don't think I like anything about the aftertaste here. And I think that was this.

pickles redeemed themselves. You want to do the picklehead again? I did just to swer, even it out. Thought you would never ask. A pickle back is what they call it. Well, God. Well, Todd. That was great.

Even as a non-drinker, I know what that is. I think I taught you that on this show. No, I watched TV. Oh, Jesus Christ. I watch TV. Who makes the pants? The row. Yeah, I was going to say, I was actually going to say the row.

They're not mine. They're not mine. That's okay. I was going to say, don't, no pickle dust on the row. First time nasty gummies have ever been dropped on the row. Definitely. I'm actually startled. I felt like I was candidate number one to test those.

And I'm startled that it's you who's having this reaction. We need your rating on the ring. Four. Okay. Wait, how do you act when it's a two? That's how you act when it's a four. Wow. Okay.

I flip the table. Okay. We'll say next time. I burn the couch. You're welcome. Well, great, because then we'll just take early delivery on the next one. I don't know. No, you can stop by your fourth.

Force for. Now we left you holding all this garbage. It's a bummer is that the aftertaste of the rings are not my favorite. And then I was like, let me palate cleanse with the pickles. Start off with the pickles. It's taste ugly. What would you even call ugliness in taste? What is that even?

Is there a word for that? Is there like a German word for that? There's got to be. There's got to be a German word. Germans in the audience. Please be in the comments. That is foul. Gracie Abrams.

First of all, very gape. Yes. Sorry. Thank you. Mary Kate and Ashley, we're so sorry. We didn't mean to get any pickle dust on your pants. We feel terrible. A sentence that's never been spoken before in the history of the human.

As with many sentences on podcast. That's how we like to roll. Gracie Abrams. Thank you so much. Thanks for being game. Exciting. Very fun to have you. We appreciate it.

Every episode of Popcass is at NYTimes.com slash Popcast. You're watching us on YouTube, as of course you should be. YouTube.com slash Popcast. Like and subscribe. Check us on Instagram. Check us on TikTok. Check us anywhere you would like to be absorbed and focused. And we'll be back next week.

We're going to work on these outro. Sorry. I'm tired. Wherever you want to be absorbed. Check this. Yes. This is. Cheers.

I am. What the hell? I and my grandmother's grandson. That's amazing. What else he got in there? Caffeine, a cup. Are you okay? No.

No. Oh my god, that's why you need the ambient. Yes. The water. The water.