The James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan - Hayley Leake - Full Interview - Australian Survivor

Episode Date: March 26, 2023

Hayley Leake is Australian Survivor royalty, and we are enormously grateful for her joining us on the James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan.In this interview, we discuss Hayley’s Survivor journeys, getting James on Survivor, pain management, and much more.Created by Sam Clarke Studios Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Hello listeners and welcome to this very special episode of the James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan, the show where I try to raise $500,000 to buy a boat. And today we have a very special guest who knows a thing or two about winning five hundred thousand dollars it's Hayley Leake winner of Australian Survivor and

then return contestant on Australian Survivor where she didn't win but did very well I love Australian Survivor Hayley is one of my favorite ever players one of the best to do it and I'm so honored and blessed that she's decided to come on. Please enjoy this interview with Hayley, where we talk about me going on Survivor, her Survivor journey, pain management, and a whole lot of other stuff. You've got to be able to smooth talk it after. Like, you can do something pretty bad and then come back.

Like, last time I played, in the second half of the game, I would promise Black and Blue 100% I'm with you, go and vote and not do it and stay with my original tribe. And they would keep... Like, a good player will smooth it over and just be like, oh, I'm so sorry I didn't do that, but I absolutely intend to next time.

This wasn't the right timing. So you keep the lie going. OK, but you didn't... So George thought Nina originally had flipped. Yep. And you'd flipped. Did you think you were going to get away with that? I didn't intend to do that until I got to Tribal.

Like, I wasn't planning to do that. And then I get to Tribal and I just decide... I've already won, so I'm just there to have a good time and try to do stuff. And I don't want to do nothing, but I hadn't been able to do anything really by this point. It had been like winning challenges, not power in an alliance. And so I decided like in tribal to do that.

Didn't really have a sorted out plan about what to do next. Was planning to take the blame and go back and tell George, that was me, I did that, but this is why. I'm still with you. Let's keep going forward. But the minute it happened and the votes came out George was like that was Nina I knew that was Nina and my brain's just like do I let how soon do you take credit for it and let it spin out well because then you get back and Nina takes

your side and go and you go listen I'm not I'm not taking the fall for that one this is you this is where my game fell apart is that I didn't put the effort in at this point so if I'd not taking the fall for that one. This is where my game fell apart, is that I didn't put the effort in at this point. So if I'd have put the effort in with Nina, and I checked this with her, that night to say, look, George is losing his marbles. He is going to mess up. Let's let him. You'll need to kind of let that heat come on you,

but I'm not going to let you hold it for long because the next vote we will do something. Then she wouldn't have given me up that night. But she was furious. She's like, I didn't smooth it over, so I didn't play well at that point. That's where you smooth it over and you put in the work. I went to bed. I was tired.

And I didn't have the motivation to work hard at it. So I think that's where my game fell apart. We gave you more credit. When we were watching it, Kay, my wife, said, Hayley has watched enough survivor and she goes there must have been a time where once someone lied about who they voted for a tribal council and made it you can do it oh you can lie about who you voted for they were like and got away with it oh yeah yeah yes you can lie about who you voted for and get away with it yes um yeah and i've

never seen it in australian survivor yeah it was so close to working. It worked for, like, six hours and then it fell apart. It was so... But you were only there... I'm going to go back to the start of you this season. I want to also talk about the last season. Oh, man, I'm just going to... Look, I've got the notes. I'm going to start.

Give me a moment, Jimmy. All right. Can we just move you forward? I think I should take off the hat. This is Will. For one moment and I'll move this to exactly... The light gets to hit my hair in a nice way. Like, that's how finicky I am.

Great. All right. Tell me where that goes. There we go. The closer you are to the mic, the better. The better. It really doesn't matter. I've got it set up.

That's what Jimmy always tells me. He's like, you've got to hold it on your mouth. Really? Yeah. Thanks, Jimmy. Yeah. All right. Jimmy number two.

I think I've done, I've got your big moments in order. So if I can do it in order, that'll make it easier for me. All right. You've got a big target on your back when you arrive on the island. Everybody wants you out. This is this season. And if it strays into territory you can't talk about, I understand. You seem like you're definitely the first person to go home.

Then you throw a challenge when you decide that there's enough anti-rogue energy to throw the challenge. How much of that is an edit and how much of that is like you're like, no, 100%, she's gone? Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, I see. Like, did you, because you're wagering there that there's enough ill will that they'll get her out of the way first and then it's broken and you're fine. So my name did come up. Yeah.

It always came up. Yes. They always had to consider, should we do this now? But there was, I did not feel nervous throwing that challenge. Okay. If that was on day two, day four, day six, yeah, I wouldn't have done it. Yeah. But there was a lot of ill will around Rogue and it did not feel like a big risk to do that.

We were at the point where the other tribe was begging us to vote her out. The other tribe was begging you to vote her out? There was a challenge where they had to fight against, we were like tackling each other, I suppose. And she was really rough with some of the women on the other tribe. And like Shani and Liz were telling us from the other side,

like vote her out. Like, that is how widely that sentiment had spread from her. Okay, so you were in a more secure... Because the way you fell in that challenge is a little performative. It was great. Also, what's probably not clear in that edit as well is that the tribe was in on it. I wasn't alone in deciding to do that.

Did not know that. Yeah, I know. So you're playing to them in a nice way. So I'd suggested the idea to Sean and to Ben and they were okay on board with that idea. But you don't want to throw a challenge and be seen like, you know, it looks like I'm dropping out

and everyone's like, that's so obvious. Everyone's going to know. But my whole tribe, tribe except for rogue knew that we were throwing that challenge okay to vote her out it oh a lot of this is going to be because in the edit they've got to build up a suspense of like it might be hayley we were sure we were sure you were gone i was devastated early on but she was then i assume also the edit of her was polite in some ways yes yeah i think so okay i want to move on i don't want to i've she gets very active on social media when she's upset with people so i don't want to talk about it but um i what great work she does with those animals and uh that was done all right when you when geordie comes over

to your tribe and they've got the idols they take you who is it is it geordie and liz is geordie and liz and they took you and nina aside yes and they are pitching it like this is a fun thing we're going to build an alliance and then very quickly it's like a hostage situation right but why how did they play it wrong because if they'd taken just you i thought maybe you would have been interested. Nina, I don't think they knew that she was very close with David, who has my favourite AFL Brian Taylor calling moment. I don't know if you've ever...

All I know is his hands act anything. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's amazing. It's pissing down at the G. I watched it after. It is... It's a delight. He's a really he's a he's

a really nice guy he's glad to know that i'm glad i've always suspected he was a nice guy and such a nice guy that nina liked him a lot yeah the good friends yeah so there was like a weird there's a weird energy when they are pitching that at you so if you're pitching a thing like that if i'm on survivor and i'm pitching a thing like that do you just because there are too many personal relationships on the other tribe you don't know about do you just peel people off one at a time do you like how could they have gotten you with that pitch was there any way to do it they could have gotten me i would i would have they were aggressive like in that pitch yeah and you kind of have to know your audience and if it's a

really all I need is a really good plan that's going to get me forward and a commitment that there's people we can work with here and once we get to merge we will have a majority like just give me logic and I'll work with you but but um it was a really aggressive pitch in that they added this part where and if you don't do it or if we see you talking to anybody else, then we're going to screw you over and never, ever work, like, with you. Yeah. Well, this went from, like, a cool, fun offer to, like, blackmail pretty quick. So is that, like, if you're trying to insert yourself

and make a deal with someone who's against you and they are taking a chance. You don't want to put yourself... You want to, like, slide in underneath them, right? You want to be like, and I'm supporting you and we're moving forward together. Well, it depends how you want to play. Like, someone like George can play quite forcefully. He blackmails people all the time and it kind of works for him.

Look... You've got to win at the end, though. You've got to get the vote. I've got to... He seems shell-shocked from when you made him vote for Cara. In the confessionals this week where he's like, it changed me. I'm not going to get the exact quote, right? But he's saying something like, I'm a different man now.

You don't know what it did to my soul to vote for her. That was one of the most... How did you get them to turn on each other at the time? That was logic. Like, George, that was always logic. Soorge cara me flick yeah george's crutch let's find out this season's not over but his crutch before has been an inability to win challenges yes so how do you get to the end if you can't win a challenge someone has to take you to the end um so yeah i think he knew at that point that if he didn't vote cara out then if it's a challenge with three and one of the other ones wins who's not them you take cara to the to the end you want

to yes in that situation you would want to sit next to cara yeah um the trouble with when we were at four though was that um if he couldn't vote for flick because she had immunity yes and so it had to be me or cara you don't want to vote for your friend cara but if you vote me out of this game flick's never going to take you through you're never going to win against flick in the final challenge you won't wait flick at the final challenge because you haven't before and flick will take cara yeah you're not gonna take george okay cara so he won't get there but so he's in a totally different position this is the weird thing of the two. So he's in a totally different position. This is the weird thing

of the two seasons. So he's making a logical choice there and is devastated by it or says he's devastated by it. Who knows? He's got a lot going on. But then in this season

he's saying he's devastated by it and he seems not to make the logical choice here. Like you don't want two challenge beasts going through to the final round. And who are you saying are the Challenge Beasts right now?

I'm saying Liz. It looks like it's Liz and David. And so you get a chance. No? Liz and who? David. No? Am I getting his name wrong?

Why am I saying David? Who's the other guy? The guy's left. Matt, Jerry. Matt! I don't know what I'm saying. David was in a different season of Survivor. Matt.

We have David, yeah. Matt. Matt's winning a lot of challenges Survivor. We have David, yeah. Matt, Matt's winning a lot of challenges and Liz is winning a lot of challenges. And Jerry was good on the endurance one for the KFC, but eventually came down. Jerry's impressive. But then George was also good at that one. George has been working out.

George has been, since we finished the last season, he has been in a gym with a PT almost every every day he has been working out now but you did six days this is what i heard on another podcast you did six days a week at the gym for a year in this is pre-covid this was kind of in the covid okay around when the gyms were open yeah yeah so you knew your first season was coming up and you just worked out every day i was lucky in a little bit of a way in that um we were preparing to fly to fiji before covert hit so we were getting ready to go and then fiji and then covert hit and then maybe survivor would never happen again maybe they wouldn't want me i never knew what was going to happen but i just knew they were unprecedented

times it was right um but then i just figured it's there's nothing else to do and maybe i will get on and if i do get on then i want to be prepped so i just hit the gym i wish i'd taken that attitude during the lockdown rather than well you have time now because the next season it's a little while away and man all right well listen i don't know that i'll we went out and did the challenge where you hold the rope and it's 40 of your body weight on the other side of it. I didn't know how. You just created it. We went to a playground where a swing was broken, so there was a surface to go over.

And then there was a shopping trolley, which was 20 kilos. Oh, perfect. That's great. And then we filled it with bricks and wine. Whoa, have you got footage of this? This will be great for your audition team. Yes, we do have the footage. But I last.

I was like, you know what? I'll see how long I can do it first, and then I'll ask you about pain management, and then I'll go and see how much better I do. I like it. But also there was like a guy in the park who had to come and help us get the – it was much easier to stop it coming down than to send it up to begin with. Oh, that's okay. The challenge was setting it up.

Yeah, and then he was also just there in the Jonathan LaPaglia role. Like it was just some guy from an office standing. It was really nice, but it was strange. And so I actually really, I did phenomenally badly. And it made me really think about the biophysics of it, that being heavy is proportionate to your arms. Not good. Nightmarish.

So yeah, those kinds of challenges, like, yeah, Survivor, it looks like it's a game where if you're, like, a big, strong person like Sean is, then that's a positive thing. And it is in the first half with the group-based challenges. Once you get to individual challenges, many of them are proportional to your body weight. So the small women or small men or whoever, but tend to do really well at those so it's like then yeah you're not that it's not advantageous in the second half being like muscly i mean

occasionally there'll be like a the closest they get to a non it is always a foot torture thing at the end in australian survivor i feel like that's the only thing you should try to get good at is torturing your feet yeah because you don't need to be good at challenges you just not need to not be a liability at the start because if you're a liability the tribe doesn't want you but as long as you can get through that bit then so if you can do relative cardio and upper body a couple of knots yeah but you're at a puzzle maybe instead throwing things i've heard about this is this is gonna be a very south australian um victorian thing but so you grew up in mildura yes and didn't play netball.

No. And there's like a brief moment on the Survivor podcast where you almost wax lyrical about the pain of not being a netball girl. I have like, not regrets, but like it was, I had a complex about it. Yeah. You were in country Australia. I know. And you weren't playing, you were doing ballet instead of netball.

Yeah. And everyone casually is just always like, oh, could you just please help? Like we need a wing defence or something. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means. Like, I can't do it. My wife sometimes gets asked to play. Can you play? No, she gets too negative.

She gets very, she throws elbows. Oh, competitive, great. You went with your cousin in New Zealand and she came back shell-shocked from what you did to the other team. That was because I pretended that I didn't know how to play. Yeah, and then you really... Oh, but you do know how to play. You're mad.

You got it. I know that you were invited back. I think you did well. I never did. I never did netball. I did dancing, which ultimately probably helped more because I attacked my feet for most of my youth. This is the...

Man, there's two bits of this that I want to use. I want to do a video of just talking about Survivor stuff and then do the challenge thing and learning about it. So we'll figure it out and we'll edit it back and forward. So I can jump around. Do whatever, yeah. Yeah, we've got the editing abilities. You talk about what the... I've read some of your work and I saw your boss's TED Talk

and I read some of that. Also it reminded me how much of academia is like just having meetings with people and agreeing with your colleagues. There's one footnote on one of the articles that's sort of like a more woke point about pain management. Like everyone's pain management is real. At the end of the Delphi system. And it doesn't make the cut.

But there still has to be a note there going like, and we thought this was a good note. And we wanted to use this. Maybe this was your note. That is really important. I think this is with chronic pain. Yes. And I work a lot with adolescents with chronic pain. Young people.

And they're just not believed. They spend years trying to convince doctors and parents and teachers that I'm not making this up. Because people think that young people can't get chronic pain. You think it's an old person's problem. Yes. So then you don't believe a young person. You're like, you just don't want to go to school. But it's a common thing for young people.

That sucks. But then this is a weird thing that the answer to the chronic pain is some version of it has to mean less to you like pain is not damage and pain is in your brain do you know what i mean this is like this is a weird this is two ideas that in an in an unsophisticated way seem to contradict each other because your pain it's very close saying pain is not damage. It's similar, but not the same as saying pain is not real. Like, don't worry about the pain. I think that's the important difference because this is the trouble. Pain is something that because you feel it in your body,

you think you need something to that part of the body to fix it. Like maybe I need to cut something out or massage something or do something to that bit which hurts but that's the treatments that we know that work don't always relate to that because the problem isn't always say the muscle it's the system it's the nervous system it's the sensitization not necessarily like something that's happened or broken there yes which means that the treatments sometimes that can be really good are things like psych dealing with stress helps like it has effects on the nervous system which which is good and fine but then if you say to someone oh okay you've got chronic pain um psych is really good they're gonna hear oh you think i'm making this up you think i'm crazy no no so you have to match match that with

okay no we believe that you have pain. This is why we think that therapy will be good. This is what was then very nice about it. Because when I saw that what you did was communicate the theory of pain to adolescents, the original gut reaction to seeing that is, oh, science communication. That's sort of it, yeah. Where you go, oh, it's nice to teach people about concepts and Bill Nye the Science Guy,

but this is not serious scientific work. Then reading about it, it's not that at all. It's that the cognitive side is genuinely helpful and you need to, like for the treatment of the pain, not just like a nice thing so that people can know about it.

It's part of getting over it. Getting over it is not a term that people are going to like in the game but uh for managing the pain effectively having a cognitive framework to approach it is vital so then finding a way to communicate that effectively i enjoyed it i really enjoyed reading about it it seems like and i want to use that and steal that from you and how you've used that in like specific techniques that can be employed to get ahead in my personal survivor journey so for example when you're doing the rope challenge there's a bit where you sort of disassociate and you start talking to your hand

and you go you go like you're fine and you're like you're just like putting the hand in its place yes do you we consciously doing that is that a technique yeah because um pain is a feeling we get that is telling us stop whatever you are doing because it's potentially dangerous or it has caused you damage or it could cause you damage right that's like the messages we're getting from pain. And that's really helpful. Like if I've got my hand on a stove, I want to feel some pain. So I take it away and I don't burn my hand. Like that's great. Um, but when I have pain from holding a bit of rope and that is telling me, Ooh, if you like keep holding this rope, maybe you'll get like some friction on your finger and

maybe you'll tear a bit of skin or get a blister. Right um i don't care okay i don't care i i don't think that that is i can i feel like that pain is there to warn me of danger damage potential damage to my hand that i'm not concerned about and so i'm trying to like reduce the threat of that pain to my system by just telling myself like it doesn't, that the warning it's giving me, I don't need that warning. I'm aware, but I don't think that this damage is going to be an issue. Part of that is knowing that the damage is not going to be an issue. Yeah, which helps because I've got a physio background, so I understand the body. So when you're standing on those peg at the end you're going okay like what's the worst thing that this will do to my body genuinely and i as as is what happened like

you see george step off at some point and i'm sure he's in so much pain by the point he steps off but he steps off walks over sits down and then he's chatting like he's fine he looks you look at his feet yeah they'll be red they'll be sore there is no long-term damage. There's no issue to like, I don't know. I just kept going through this like levels of the body. I'm like, okay, bones, nothing's going to happen to your bone. Muscle, like nerves, like biologically, what the heck could even happen? The issue is that like you're getting some buildup of some like acids in there, some like chemicals, nothing's moving.

Your blood flow is not moving. This is so good to know. Hold on. If you can just move a little. Now, yeah yeah you're often saying that because when people lock in and i do quiz nights sometimes and i'll get people to do the hold your arms out for as long as you can and people in that one go never move your arms a little bit because that'll make it harder and worse but then some things like if you're on things you do want to move so is it so is movement always good i think that when you're standing on some of those challenges

like survive like the kfc one that i did with george and we won that one yeah um and the tiny pegs you put your feet on them if you just lock your foot in and don't move my understanding is that that's gonna hurt more because you're gonna have more of a build-up of kind of like the some byproducts that will create sensitization of your nerves like it's going to hurt your nerves so is this like bile building up what is not bile it's like kind of like lactic acid almost like the stuff that builds up i'm not fully a neuroscience person right like i don't fully understand but you're going there's not a long term i'm not going to be crippled oh god no no unless i fall funnily and then i fracture well that's what scared me and the one where they were

doing the foot pegs and they said let's go to one leg and then they're like that over the pegs going up because if you did fall there was this the kfc one no it was they were holding an idol oh yeah and had one foot and i thought like you could get impaled on the so some of the challenges could hurt there are balance risks yeah there are yep and people get hurt and survivor all the time they do we just watched the survivor season where a man has to be helicoptered out in a boat accident. Yes. That's not quite a challenge. But who else? What were you going to say? Sorry. George's face. You've seen his forehead. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Jackie's shoulder. Yep. Was that not absurd? That first challenge? A lady did her collarbone, right? Yeah. Fractured badly. Yeah. Yep. That was absurd. Did you feel when you were doing it that there

was any chance you would get hurt doing it or did they do it in a weird way? It looked scary on television. Don't say anything that will make Channel 10 feel like they've got a lawsuit coming. Yeah, I think they'll be. The one that upsets me is when there's, there are always like some that you go physically, like Tay when we were watching the crucifixion ones of the, you know,

like you're on your feet and you're held up, it's like we had a big chat about like you feel like you're good at those ones and you could do it. And like when you're in labour, you were sitting there for a long time and you find it really uncomfortable to watch that challenge. But also the drowning one where you're underwater and you go, someone could drown here. The one for me is when there's wrestling underwater

and I just feel like I personally would snap and just really kill someone. You know, who knows? We'll cut that one out before. Wouldn't it be great TV? I think they'd cut that episode. No, they'd keep that in. A man has died on Australian Survivor. Oh, what's dying?

But that is weird to watch someone just hold someone underwater on television. Yeah, there's rules. You shouldn't do some of that stuff. There's rules. You're always trying to play with the rules that they give you. Like, yeah, like wiggle around them. Like, yes, you do have to cheat. Like, not drown each other, but like you're not meant to drown each other.

Or like if you've got the peg or whatever it is and they're drowning you just like throw it away or something like how loose are the rules different to the challenges to what they present them as on television they're more in depth like they'll tell us more like you can't are you gonna do you get questions yeah oh yeah okay yeah we get plenty of time like, check that we understand fully the rules of the game and that we walk through heaps of safety. There's, like, a big, like, YouTube compilation video. It's, like, people hacking challenges, which doesn't seem to happen as much in the Australian one. So I don't know if they're more specific with the rules.

But, like, that rope holding one, I was thinking, like, if you could get your foot on it. Oh, yeah, no, no, no. There'd be heaps. Yeah, you can't use foot. Like, there'll be heaps of stuff like that. Damn. My first idea was use foot. Even that rope one that rope one there was like you couldn't face forward fully you had to stay sideways and if you were too forward they would call you out and you'd have to

something like that i can't fully remember but there's quite specific rules okay that they can call you up on what about that there's one where you're chasing like a ring in the water and george like tosses it far away yeah but could you toss that but he it's also tossed in like a gentlemanly distance like if you really wanted to do it you could you could yes you can't throw it outside the boundary but you could throw it away i didn't know you couldn't throw outside the boundary i was thinking of getting on the beach like where are they going to zoom those cameras outside that's annoying i'd never thought of the way that it filmed has to be part of it so that you can hack the challenge a bit but not but they are more specific with the rules there's yeah there's quite the rules are really around safety and trying to keep it not fair but

yeah i'm trying to keep it relatively have you ever been in a challenge where your physio brain went if i do this a certain way or i do this too long i could have long-term if I do this a certain way or I do this too long, I could have long-term something. Because I'm not going to have the physio brain, right? If I get to do it, that's outside my reach of things I can understand. But if I have some level of faith, they're never going to do something that could hobble me for life.

Then I can just always think, you'll get over it. You're not going to lose a toe. You're not going to develop sciatica. The ones that I've done before, yeah, that's hard because then I don't want to give you this advice and then you're like, I held it for 10 hours and now I'm... I waive your responsibility for me personally, but have you ever gone, my life's in danger on this challenge, I better not do it?

You got in a cage and they pushed you down a slide. That looks like... That was so much fun. All right. That was really fun. And I had, like, two AFL players carrying me and, like, who else? Like, a body... It was, like, amazing.

I mean, I probably don't have to worry. They're not going to put me in the cage. They're not going to put you in the cage? I'm not the pig for the cage. No. It was so hot out. No. We'll get back to playing stuff.

But I want to do this one. We're back on Survivor stuff. Is Kieran in here? No, he's not in here. But he might. All right, get him in. Are you having fun? I'm having so much fun.

I'm trying to think of how you're going to succeed in this. And I don't think. Oh, no, hold on. You hold on to that. You hold on to that. I just don't want to embarrass myself on. Are we still going, Sam? Hello, Kieran. How are still going Sam? hello Kieran

how are you going? this is Kieran how are you going Kieran? yeah yeah sorry can I keep talking? Sam? he's like

don't make me stop no alright I don't I know I'm not going to win all the challenges and there are things on I tried holding

I managed at like 40 kilograms like two minutes and george made it to 13 minutes so i was like when i go back to it it's like if i can beat the george time that's my goal he was the first day of the challenge i reckon yeah you just you want to lean into the things that you're good at yeah and if it's challenges it's challenges but like being good at challenges rarely you rarely win like i like the whatever model i had in the season i won i wouldn't ever use that as a model to win okay because i got voted out like i only got back in through the grace of the game and i i was playing big yeah like i was doing big moves and winning

challenges and typically that kind of person doesn't get to the end like really not really that person gets to the end the big move person someone like david when he won yeah he was not do if you ask people on the beach they would say he wasn't really playing big he was playing big to the camera yeah but not on the beach i think i heard that in an interview with someone where he would come back from the beach and go i I'm giving them incredible stuff on the camera. And he's amazing in the camera. But if you play that big in the game, it's very difficult to get to the end.

But then when you watch like Boston Rob doing it, and he's an American survivor, he'll be doing things like, everybody get your bag, turn your bags over show you don't have and people love it there the cult of personality doesn't always work and it doesn't always get you to the end and it depends it really depends on what your goal is because he it took a really long time for him to win the game he played like five times or something he played so many times before he won yeah um yeah like his first season he did and his second season he's got to be his wife.

But if you marry the person who wins, you also get the money. If you propose to them five seconds before they win, yeah, you get the money. Yeah, that's true. It's a, you know, because you have to talk about you would split the money, right? You're not allowed to, no. But if you marry them. Proposing them is the secret. It is the secret.

Although I don't think your wife's going to let you do that. Honey? She's like, let you do that. Honey? She's like, no. I understand. Is it legal? Yeah. For now, we live in a bigoted country where pygmy is temporarily frozen out. So I just don't think challenges will be the thing you have to really worry too much about. It's, you know, the game is the thing that...

Yeah. Focus on the game. You know what? I can edit a lot of this out if I feel like it'll hurt me in the long run. But first... Because if you get on and then someone, it leaks. I'm just picturing now that you're cast for the next season because they always leak the cast.

If I get on the shortlist, immediate unlisted. Unlisted. Listed later, but you'd have to. Yeah, I think. But it later, but, like, you'd have to. Yeah, I think... But even then, the chances of... Look, the likelihood of getting through is better now that I have an Instagram because they love that. Did you just get an Instagram?

No, but I've just gotten better at Instagram. Got it. And it's not even... I'm on, like, 4,000 soon. Yeah. But that seems to be enough. I've checked out the other people who are influencers and that seems to be about the...

You know, there's a pathway to audience here. yeah i can give you yeah but like the fact that they've opened auditions like the act that pathway where people who are not influencers get in yeah that's really positive because they didn't do that for the last few seasons right i'd wondered why they were only telling me to audition for whatever the fucking one with the bars of silver is or something how far have you gotten in the process no sorry there was some other show they're always like trying to go like we can have our own channel 10 show that's just as good as uh survivor that's our intellectual property and it'll be like the magical mole and it's a game of deception and lies and border and like it's terrible ratings and no one wants to watch it anymore but survive there's something very human

and weird about survivor a very smart woman who is now dead told me that's a weird way to introduce it but she she was like so intellectual and i wasn't watching any tv and i just always i'd watch like some of the early seasons of australian survivor and that was it and it's like this is people with broad aussie accents trying not to say anything and if you're just getting a little glimpse of a tribal when people are actively trying not to give anything away I think tonight's vote is about sitting with is it do they call it pork barrel what do they call it oh no I just said boring it's so boring but it's like if you think they're being earnest you go not only is it boring I think these people might be very stupid you don't

know any of the subtext of what's going on and they're trying to play, they're literally playing it as dumb as they can. Yes. So if all you're seeing is someone playing it dumb

and you buy into it, you go, this is boring. I think this is dumb. This is not a good show. Well, I do think the editing this season is much better

because they're letting the audience in on the game. So like, you know everything and you're like, yeah, that person better do this otherwise it's the editing getting so they've hired a new editing team for this new season

artistic element of the editing where simon cry with silence crying in the forest i've never seen this on another reality tv show but like no there's a bit where george is thinking about voting off shawnee and he's just walking up and down the beach at night alone. They never did any of this stuff before. Not even American Survivor does this stuff because it's so pacey

to get to the end. Those heartfelt, Liz, when people cry, you didn't have any big crying moments this year. You're pragmatic. You're going to get done.

Did you cry? They had the content. They had the content. There were teary moments? It was a tough season. It was so tough. Like, there was definitely down times for me. But unless it's feeding, unless it matters for the narrative of the night,

it doesn't matter. Yes. Like, if you're sad, but then your tribe isn't a tribal council, like, who cares? What are they going to do? Just be like, meanwhile. Yeah, there's not a lot of screen time when you're all winning. Eli's crying back over there.

Sorry, I've got to talk about the Simon stuff. Yeah, I love Simon. I love Simon. Because he – I came on side over the season. Yes, it's hard not to. Well, the first episode, first you go, he burns the hat, right? And he's like, I'm a villain. I'm out to get George.

And everything is like very – when he – because he's swole. He's a big guy and he's playing from the top. And that's not appealing. See? He's Troy at the start. He's acting like he's playing from the top. That's how they're depicting it. They're depicting it like he's the big man on campus.

He's got, he's at the top of his alliance. And he's also huge. And he's picking on the little guy. Okay. It doesn't look like you know it's hard to be sympathetic for that man yes then when he's on the bottom and he's so sad and everything he tries fails and he's talking to himself in the mirror have you watched the jury villas at all there's a bit at the end where he looks himself in the mirror and he says simon i'm

proud of you and it's like what is happening this is a you. And it's like, what is happening? This is a French film. And it's so genuinely him too. Like you can't pretend to be that. I don't think you would. No, and he came in. What I love about Simon is that he's just so optimistic. And when you're winning, that's not fun for people because it looks like it's cocky.

Yeah. And it might be cocky, right? Like maybe that's what it is sometimes if you're like doing amazing and you turn to everyone and you're like, how amazing am I? And everyone's like, yeah. Well, that's when it grates is when he wins a challenge and he goes, I've believed in myself and I'm where I should be. I know.

But like there's also something really healthy about that. Yeah. You know, but Australians hate it because we're like tall poppy. We're like, I don't want to see someone succeed when they're like a big strong guy. Like you just don't want to see someone succeed when they're like a big, strong guy. You just don't want to see it. You want to see the person who's losing do better. And so to see a big, strong guy succeed and then to say,

I believed in myself, we hate that. But to see the big, strong guy fail and pick himself up day after day, it's magical. And when someone is low, we think what they should do is talk positive to themselves. Act no believing in yourself, pick yourself up. So we're okay with it when you is low, we think what they should do is talk positive to themselves. Act no believing yourself. Pick yourself up. So, like, we're okay with it when you're failing but not when you're succeeding.

Yeah. It's weird because we should be okay with it all the time. Ah, we've got... It's weird how the culture of that feeds into the show and how different it is to the American one and how hard it is for the players who love survivor to recognize that they're not playing the game that they think they're playing they should be playing and how frustrated they are i want to be that sounds vague to break it down

when you're i'm gonna okay you play really hard and you get voted out on the first season. And then you come back and you go, you could, when Geordie comes back after his redemption, no, he doesn't get a redemption arc. His brother goes and he's embittered by it. He does get a redemption. He gets a redemption? Season seven, yeah. Okay, but he comes back and goes, I'm a supervillain.

I'm turning it up. I'm playing. I'm a literal crazy person. And you come back and you go full blown obsequious. There's a bit, I think, where you talk about body language and you're like, I'm going to be lower than people. Oh yeah. I'm going to be, and you're, you have a,

you start a conversation with someone and like lie on the ground and just so that they feel bigger than you. And it's like, but also the pride that you don't have in that you're like this is what's required this is so impressive you seem to understand what is required in the game the game theory of it and then you just do it flawlessly regard you've you're really good at figuring out what the game is supposed to be for you and forcing yourself to be that person. Does that resonate? Most people can't do that.

So I think when I got voted out, I was really embarrassed because I'm a big fan and I was really proud of getting on in the first place, proud of making moves, okay with getting voted off. Like at some point I assumed I might not win, but not the way it happened. Every single person wrote my name down when I got voted off. And that turned out to be a good thing

because it meant that when I came back, there wasn't like a contingent of people who were like, oh no, we have to vote her out again because she's going to come for us. I was coming for everyone. Like I didn't have anyone specifically to be upset about, upset towards. And so that, I think I was coming for everyone. Like I didn't have anyone specifically to be upset about, upset towards. And so that, I think I was actually humbled by what happened.

Like I had to think that I'm doing so well and then have everyone write your name down and go out and to think like that was embarrassing. I don't want it to end like that. It can end, but I don't want it to end like that. Meant that when I came back in, I could play with humility because I was humbled already by that experience.

And I decided that I was okay to be out of control. I didn't need to be like the one driving the vote, which I felt like I wanted to do before. And I just felt like I'm willing to go down with the ship. I'm going to decide this is my crew and I'll go down with them and if we lose, that's fine, but I want to know I tried. Yeah. Because I think this is my best path to the end

and not because I was like, yeah, you're my friends, like whatever, we're all, who cares, a survivor, but more so that I just was willing to like plant my feet in and go down if it didn't work. Whereas that's my downfall in this game like even in this season i just did when i voted got voted out like i wasn't willing to lose control and i just wanted to like put a vote somewhere and like that's my downfall in this game well that's it you have to know your own yourself like the the only way to win this game

is to know yourself well and why you succeed and fail in. Yeah. And just why your weaknesses are bad and how to use them. Well, one, where it looks like your game unravels on this season is a couple of turns before it does when you're trying to get George out because you don't want to come second. Yeah, I probably didn't need to do that. Well, I don't know because it's increasingly clear in these episodes now how useful you would have been how like how good it would be to have someone outside of this there's an alliance on my left and on my right yeah you really want one person there

to so that if that if that does start falling apart they can come for them i probably could have just trusted that i could move further in this game and get him out at another point. Like, you could always try to get him out at another point. There might be a point. But I just was fearful that the people with him were just blinded and weren't ever going to do it. And I just was scared that they would never do it. But when you did that as well, there hadn't been that.

I think a turning point in that is Simon running around telling everybody, you're a pawn, which he wouldn't necessarily have done if he was still in the game like he has to have tried that seems like a weird last resort thing that he's doing and then only then that's i mean that's also a great i don't want to he's so good for tv it's so good for tv and then when jerry is like looks like he's going to vote george out and then he's so offended by what Simon has said. I'm not. And then it's like the game theory gives way to ego again

and this is unpredictable. Yeah. So you just have fun. But you start having a shot at George by going to, who is it? Nina, Sean and Sam. Yep. And they have two idols. You don't know that they have two idols?

You don't know they have any idols, right? Yeah. I don't even know they have any idols, no. On the show? No, I don't. You don't know any? They've got? You don't know they have any idols, right? Yeah. I don't even know they have any idols, no. On the show? You might suspect. You don't know any. They've got two. I say if you have one, this is what I would do with it.

You give them the right information. Yes. They use two wrongly. They do. And George would have gone home if they used one of them the right way. And then it would all look very different. And it would have been. And maybe I would have gone next.

Who knows? I mean, it's hard to say. You never know. Would have cracked the game open. Is the problem there that they didn't trust you yes enough yeah so is the problem there that like to do that move you have to have kept the relationship going with them better because you've been on a tribe with them since early on and then once you make the there's some footage on the show of like sean going can we work together and you're like maybe at some point but you're you don't I don't

give him much no yeah yeah I think what I did well the first time I played I didn't do as well this time which is you like always making sure you've got options everywhere and so like the first time I played I'd have an alliance I'd be in a majority and I would still talk to the other side and say what do you guys want to do yeah or you want to get George out okay let's we could do that like you know always be the option for them so that they always come to you and think at some point she'll work with us yeah um I didn't do that this time and I think that was it was much harder for me to be this kind of like flexible person because there was a lot of I have I perceived that there was a lot of i i perceived that there was a lot of eyes on me and just that i wasn't just this no one that could float around i was like the only winner out

there yeah and that already put this target on me and so i think i i was fearful to have too many conversations with people because if i was talking to sean a lot and sam a lot and nina a lot then it's hayley's having a lot of conversations well yeah she's the last one who joined this alliance maybe like she's actually not with us like we've seen her do this before like maybe so I just wanted the alliance I was in to just fully trust me and having all these side conversations I felt like that wouldn't be good um but then it means that they when you want to do something with them they're not as keen on doing it. And I didn't drive it home.

Like, that was a lot of the time I didn't drive home my plans. I was just like, maybe do this. Anyway, and run away. And I think that's a combination of, yeah, feeling fearful that, like, if I talked to everyone that people wouldn't trust me, they'd just vote me out, I was already a target. And, like, just a little bit less motivation the second time around well that's i mean in like a football dynasty even when the list is good it's hard to keep

winning premierships yeah did you feel like 100 like you didn't get voted off the first round and that was a win and after that was everything i remember on like day five being like i so they called me to play again and for a while i I was like, nah, like, I just want, like, I'm, it's too, what, I'm not going to last. Like, what's the point? And then I don't know, like a few things. It's a little window of my life where I still am free and able to play. I'm not tied up with other things that would mean I had to say no. Like I could say yes.

Like work would allow me. I haven't got a baby right now or anything. Like I could do it. And then going to Samoa, it's going to be on an island. I grew up on American Survivor. Like this is what I've always imagined. Let's just, I was just going to do it. I went, I had to go in knowing that the outcome

probably wouldn't be as good as last time. Like that's okay. But that's okay. You don't have to win to enjoy the journey. But I just thought I want to, we have a palm fr to enjoy the journey um but on i just thought i want to weave a palm frond i want to be on an island i want to drink a coconut it's like on i remember day five being like okay so i've done those things now what am i playing for what am i playing for am i playing to you know i actually playing to win like i will play to win but why am i gonna win

well also five hundred thousand dollars is not what $500,000 was at an earlier time in our lives. Yeah, but still like... Hey, it's great. It's a one in 24 shot. It felt like the odds might not have been as good as that for me, but still like that's a pretty good odds at that money. But then coming second is not... Having won and then come second, right?

And having won and then coming fifth or sixth or something, is not material. If it's a 50-50, I come sixth or I win. This is something that it seems like coming second is not as difficult as coming a good fifth. I'm not interested in second. I would rather go out earlier than come second. I'm really not interested in getting to the end and losing. Yeah.

Like, that's not... It's not a game where, like, the first player's the best, the second player's the second best. I don't think so. No. Like, no. Like, there are people who get taken towards the end because everyone's like, I would love to sit next to you.

Like, when people say to you in the game, I'd love to go to the end with you, like, that's not a compliment. It's insulting, right? Yeah. It's not a compliment. I try not to say that to people. I'd love to go to the end with you. Like, that's not a compliment. It's insulting, right? Yeah. It's not a compliment. I try not to say that to people. I'd like to, yeah. There was, I mean, it's only because I listened to it earlier on,

but on the first game that there was someone who came to you on, like, the second day. Oh, I'm good friends with him, yeah. He's great. All right. But that's, like, a weird, I should never say that. And I've had long chats to him about that, and he really meant it genuinely, like,

I don't really love all the people here, and people here and I'd go to the end with you. And I think he tells me he meant it more like, I think we'd play this game well together, but I immediately took it as, like, as if you can promise someone that this early on. I don't like the idea that you would try to promise that. And it's not a compliment to say, oh, I think that I could, like, carry you under my wing and be here at the end.

But he was trying to express how much he did not like the others are the other people how much is personal antipathy to people are motivating early on early on a lot right later you just suck it up you suck it up yeah if someone's annoying are we talking like post merge or post yeah yeah i think by merge i would keep people you'd have to be really annoying to want to be voted out at that point like if you're if you're making social faux pas like you're maybe a really useful person to take to the end like well we yeah in that um david versus goliath season there's like there's just couple, there's a weird pivot moment. Okay, like your body's hype shifts. We spoke about that.

Like if you have a useful body for challenges at the start, that's not the same as a useful body for challenges at the end. Similarly, like your threat level for your body changes. Like that big guy is not a threat on the, so it's like nice to have that he's helpful on those ones and then at the end it doesn't get in the way i feel like the threat doesn't always change in line with where it probably should like people still see a big strong guy and think i want him to get voted out at the second half of the game when it's individual

when maybe they shouldn't really care. Yeah. When they come to torture his feet, there's a lot more force on them. Yeah. Like if you want to win against someone at a final challenge, like you should probably take Sean. Like that would be good. He'll be too big.

He might be too big. Like it doesn't matter if he's an athlete. Why is it always a foot torture challenge in Australia? I don't know. I've written it. I saw you. I haven't got it on me, but I wrote an essay about it and how beautiful it is. Just the – and I'm going to put it in a book at some point.

But it's like this strange Christ thing of like what is at the end of the gospel? His feet are being tortured and his family and friends are there watching it happen until he gives up. And it's like, you know, his mother's there crying. And on the show, like, everyone's family is there weeping next to him. Yeah, I remember George's mum when we were doing it. George's mum was like, honey, if it hurts, you just get off. It's fine.

Maybe the worst thing that someone could possibly tell you. Like, you don't want your mum there who, like, wants to care for you and doesn't want to see you in pain. You want someone who's like, you want your sister there who's like, OK, to see you in pain. Like, hold on. I don't doubt that you briefed Jimmy on what he was and wasn't allowed to, the useful things to say at that point.

No, he knew well enough what to do. Like, he was not... You'd had the lockdown, you'd watched it and you'd spoken about it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And he, yeah, he was not,

I don't know. He just said he wasn't cheering on anyone else and was just cheering on me. Were other people cheering on other people? Yeah. Like the mum, the mum was like, good job everybody. But I don't think that's.

Hey, if you get to come along, you ought to say horrible things to the other people. You should say to the other person's mother, ideally, that's there, like, oh, this is really dangerous. I really don't think they should be doing this for very long. You should encourage them to come off. There's, like, it's, the thing that fascinated me about it was, like,

when the flick goes into this, I'm going to conquer the pain. Like, I can climb the pain. The pain will not defeat me. And then you, and then the other, there's like every season, you can't tell until a couple of episodes in, but who was Emmett was maybe his name, where they're like loading him up and you go like, you go, I don't know how to describe it.

It's like some other plane of existence where it's like people aren't really there or they're so there that it's not an issue where it's like if you're fighting the pain then it's a matter of time until you lose that fight but if you're like this has to go on all day like yeah like you distract yourself from it you don't focus on the pain because that's not going to help Like that's going to make the pain more threatening. And the goal, I think, is to make the pain less threatening. Because pain is threat. It's a measure of threat and it's trying to tell you something. So you don't want more threat, you want less.

Tell yourself this can't hurt me. So if you can cognitively make things less threat, great. If you can distract yourself by not focusing, great. If you focus on it. It can't damage me. It is hurting me, excuse me. Yes, yeah, hurting, but not damaging you. Yeah, I think that any threats at all aren't good.

So I spent the time in those kind of painful challenges focusing on like positive things, distracting things that could really distract me. Like some of the challenges I'd try to play games with the people sitting on the bench who'd already gone out. Okay. You know, name a country starting from A, B, whatever any just distracting things um if you have the person next to you still

in the challenge you want to talk to them and stay distracted with them like even though it helps them um yeah i think that stuff is good i know that the like jlp the host is trying to get sound bites so the people at home can know how it feels so he's asking you like how does it feel and probably the good tv players will give you nice descriptive things like i remember um some of the other players saying in challenges like it feels like my arm is getting pulled out of its socket it feels like i'm standing on a thousand tiny knives yeah and like that's i don't think that's helpful like as a visual to be hearing to think about and to be visualizing fragility in your body in that kind of way or threat to your body so like i'm not going to give you a soundbite that makes everyone else

like understand the feeling i'm just going to be like no i'm great this feels i'm fine like i don't i can do that yeah i can do that. You said a thing in an interview about the body gives you, like the brain gives you pain. Like you're managing, it's something like, if you think of a thousand knives going into the foot, how much pain is your brain going to give you? Well, the brain, like, I guess, so in the same way that like hunger, thirst, any feeling you have at all is essentially created by the brain like it's not created by the foot foot can't make pain like it's pain it's a feeling so it's if your brain makes it in the same way it makes everything does that make sense yes yeah so like you feel hunger in your tummy but like hunger is not just stomach related like it might have something to do

with messages being sent to your brain about what is in the stomach or not or the distention of it. But then there'll be, what can you see? What can you smell? Can you see food? Or now suddenly I'm hungry. Is knowing this enough to do it though? I don't think you can. And just like your sheer brute will, no, it's fine.

It's in my head. I can get through it. Or are there like skills and tricks you can do? And like what can you pragmatically, do you hurt yourself a little more each day and think about something so it's a toxin i wouldn't think so you could try um no i think that understand i think like i want some kowitz haradak dune have you read dune when he puts his like hand in the box and he's got these mind techniques to like not care about the pain yeah that's what i want no i don't have that no that's fine no now are you super hot in here by the way

oh you've got can i have another one of these please i'm having the best time oh good if you start to get bored and you want to walk out no i'm right i don't know how long we've been going for um 50 all right how long we've been going for yeah you're gonna have some editing to do sam's gonna have a lot of editing all right let me let me get everything that i gotta get i don't want you to like go home and then be like no i'm all, all right, here we go. Are we still going? Oh, yeah.

All right. And some of these might be academic questions that there are no answers, or it's a hypothetical that doesn't make any sense. Shit. But if you had gone up against Flick at the end, say she'd won that challenge and taken you, hypothetically. I would, yep. Could you have said anything, do do you think to get that jury I would have tried my best but I don't think

so okay I do think that the um thank you I think that often the jury has their mind up made up before they go in and I think that the social aspect people it's just so important because you need to sit next to someone they like less than you at the end like that kind of feel like it's the it seems like it's a really complicated formula yeah but ultimately like if you're more likable than the person you're sitting next to you should win like win. Like, you should win. Like, that's how I won, I think. Like, I could argue I had moves and stuff. No, 100%. But I think that's what happened.

Although in season one of Australian Survivor, Kirsty Bennett won against Lee. And I think that the jury were planning to vote Lee when they walked in but changed their mind. So she persuaded well. And I think that her persuasion skills did win out. So it is important. But you're not really persuading the whole jury.

You might be getting like a couple, maybe just a couple of people. Yeah. But like there might be a couple of swing boats of people who dislike both of you. Yeah. Right? Yeah, and people might. Clearly in that first season a lot of people dislike both of you.

Both of me and George? You and George. Yeah. Yeah. And then you just had to make them. Well, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Cara came in very fierce against you. I know that wasn't like an under-orthing. Oh, that wasn't against me. That was for George. No, that was for George. That was for George.

But it was, man, I just watched that back today. I know. That's crazy. That was rough. That was like, what? I interpreted that question she asked me in the jury as... Just for a minute, she asks you, like, you lied and you deceived. Did you mean to do that?

Or did that just come naturally to you? Yeah, did that just come naturally to you? You're just like a bitch. Yeah. No, that was fine. I was never getting her vote because she's like best friends with George because of the social component, like regardless. So George got her and he got...

Laura. He got Laura. And you got everyone else wow i don't wanna but then it's yeah like yeah like why didn't you get laura do you think have you thought have you spent any time on it yeah i've spoken to her about it okay oh it Oh, it's her story though. I feel like. Laura, come on anytime and talk about it. Don't talk about it. It's all right. We got, hold on. It's just, so I mean this year and these people.

Man, it's interesting that you said that. That changes what I wanted to, it's changed my perception of how. It has. Well, I feel like on the American one, there's a more of a sense of like, we should, there's like an we should reward the best player we all love the game and maybe it's just that on a social level they love great gameplay do you know what i mean it's not always the case but it seems like there's a premium put on having played really well whereas in that jury that you and george at, it's being held against you by everybody.

And it's sort of, you're pitching yourself as like, you could have done all your tactical moves and emphasised the start of the game, but instead you emphasise winning challenges and the social game. And you give them like a, what do you call it? Like a rubric out of three to go i should be getting three or two out of three and georgia most can get one out of three and they all buy but you sense also it's because they like you more and they want an excuse like

you're out there for a long time by the point of getting to the jury you should know the people in the jury you have been on a tribe with them at one point. The first person, maybe not for very long. Who knows? But you're just selling your story to them. You don't have to be the best player in the eyes of the viewers or what makes best TV or anything. You just need those people to vote for you. And you should know them by now.

You've had time with them. You've had time to get to know them. So I think the goal of the person at the end is to sell the story the jury wants to hear. That's all you're meant to do. Well, that's what you do in that first season. Because George comes out and he's like,

I am the greatest strategic player in the world, which is not the strategic move at that point, right? It's like a murderer who's like uh who's taken the thing off at the end and gone yes detective it was i who did it at the very moment you want to be concealing it like the strategic move is to keep winning those particular people you have to keep winning them and you open you go like hey jury how's it going and you're so warm and yeah look i see i sometimes feel like when people play this game uh they i can't this kind of spectrum you can play to win it and that could just be your only objective

regardless of anything else you could play to be like a tv person like to play really well for tv and and that might not be at all anything to do with winning or you could be somewhere on the spectrum. And I would suggest that... There are some players who are somewhere on the spectrum. Yeah, yeah. I would suggest that, say, for example, me and George, I play with the intention to win when I play, don't really care about how it comes off on TV.

Like, if I'm, like, a huge part of the edit or not I don't care I've gone to play the game that's what I'm interested in is the game I don't particularly love being on TV some people maybe are more interested in it I'm looking forward to being on TV more I think I would host the project very well but I am passed over for that

opportunity repeatedly no I've said too much shit about the project if it's going to be there still it might not survive look I don't know I think that opportunity repeatedly i know i've said too much about the project um i yeah look i don't know i think can i say that okay if you play for tv yeah it might not always be the thing you need to win like if you want to be like i'm amazing like that's that's hard to win well i don't necessarily want to say that all the time you should you should play to win that catamaran will pay for itself it seems like the closer you get to winning the more of an edit you get for tv anyway because you're more useful to be introduced to people earlier on it's not sure everybody yeah sure but if like when they're getting people to give context early on you could

let the person giving context be steve who's you know i'm just making a name up but there are steves i didn't mean steve steve's my god to um geraldine has there ever been a geraldine random name geraldine's so great at speaking but she goes home third so why do we need her let's build up the guy who doesn't give us a lot of good stuff but come second and then we build a journey so that's that's my tv brains like i think i think they should help each other. Well, there's 24 people playing, and it's a 7.30 time slot. So do you really care about everyone? No, you just want to know who to care about. You might miss a few episodes.

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It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. Acast.com. So it's like you want to be able to catch up and... There's a lot of rehashing things that have already happened. Yeah, yeah. Which I would love to...

That's my dream of being a survivor. That's my checklist, is to get to be someone who goes like, last night at Tribal Council was huge. This happened, and then that happened. And so maybe the recipe for that is to be in there for a significant amount of time and to do it well. Like, you clearly speak well. I think you'll have that on your side.

I'm going to be playing that down. I'm going to pretend to be a deaf mute on that island. No, that won't matter. People in the camp won't care. If I speak well? No, that won't matter to them. So what does games in particular... Oh, here we go.

...spend some time on? Yeah. What do you think in strength, sweetness and... In application? Oh, this... Okay, application and playing. I kind of feel like it's two different things. Okay, application.

Okay, so... And we'll cut this bit. If one of the things doesn't seem like you've thought about it. Okay, so like you're playing... you're playing your game against the producers to apply not you're not playing against players that's a funny way to think about it well you've got to get on yeah yeah yeah nobody is yeah they've got to pick you you've got to win them over and people always say to me they're like oh like i'm in my audition like i've densely edited it to be like like an episode of survivor and like they're not trying to hire an editor like or like they're just hiring a player so like you don't need to edit the

tape just speak to the camera um and i think they want someone who can tell a story in a really engaging way in a way that you'd like to watch on tv like if you can if you can explain what's going on and you've got intonation and you're interesting. I'm a poor, humble, suburban father of three. We've got no money. We're moving into a caravan. I love Survivor and I can't wait to get on there

and save my family from desperate poverty. People tune in to listen to you talk in a podcast. You'd assume that they'd then tune in to watch you on TV. So I feel like you have that on your side. Like, that's a good thing. I've been kicked out of a lot of commercial radio jobs. Why, though? Oh, actually, just arguments with producers.

Oh, one big commercial radio job. Listen, that's not important. I was going to say, like, is that a bad thing for this? Like, you're controversial? Like, that's not bad. I could be controversial. I could ratchet that up. You can give that a go.

Controversiality? Yeah. I could ratchet that up. You can give that a go. Controversiality? Yeah. I'll look into it. Well, Benjamin Law is very, seems controversial in real life sometimes. But then on the show he... They want controversy. They put Paige and Rogue on the same tribe for controversy. I'm having some fun with that.

They want that. And if you can create, if you can position yourself as someone, they might be able to find someone contrary to that. If you're like oh i really don't like x y and z kind of people they'll be like oh i can find an x y and z person put them on the track hold on that's interesting to know because one of the i applied once and i applied in a we had like a newborn i didn't apply very well i think it was blood versus water in the end but like some of the questions are things like are you a religious person do you have strongly held convictions is it better to ratchet that up or play that down like do you

want to be a bigger i think that it's also looking for consistency that you are who you say you are and you can and when they see it written and then they see a video then they do a skype that it all lines up that you are who you say you are and you know yourself well and then you can express that i think that they don't really care too much about like i don't want someone who's into it all lines up that you are who you say you are and you know yourself well. And then you can express that. I think that they don't really care too much about, like, I don't want someone who's into religion or not. Like, they don't care. They just want variety.

This self-knowledge thing is hard. To know yourself well. Well, I find it maybe, yeah, I mean, it's the work of a lifetime, right? To, like, really, you can have a working knowledge of yourself but also you don't okay okay simon i would say maybe not super great with self-awareness also makes great tv yes you know like you also if someone's not self-aware they're the kind of person who should not go on celebrity tv but will yeah good tv no because if i mean self-consciousness is bad uh that robotic like not wanting to come across a certain way. Yeah, if you're not willing to share who you are

then that's not going to be fun for people to watch. But that doesn't seem to be an issue. No, I think that'll be... Okay, so say I get on the show. Yeah, did you put a video in last time? Yeah, but I was just like running around my attic and... Sorry? It was...

We had a newborn and you may have looked like a mental... I think I looked crazy. What were you doing in the video? Uh... Close to camera. Very light eyes. Big, big... I hadn't slept in several days.

Okay. And I think I was saying things like, get me away from my family. Okay. I'm going insane. Put me on an island for a month. But that's good though. I need to sleep through the night.

I can see where that would be coming from. Like... Not 100% what I need to convey, maybe, as it turned out. Are there any other things that we should discuss before James doesn't start that? Yeah, like if you were to send a letter or something, if there was a gift that was allowed to be sent or a letter, or you were to go out there, you'd want to strategize around what you say and do in those moments like um what's good what's bad yeah like so there was a guy well i ruined the season for you sometimes when you watch some

american seasons if you haven't seen them do you already know who's won i don't know anyone who wins at the moment but um there are enough that if you're real for me that's okay oh yeah there are lots um there is a guy who his wife was pregnant and he didn't want his tribe mates to know that because he thought that could get used against him because which which i think was very smart of him so she came out at one point um maybe there's eight people left and he sees her it's you're the audience and you know that she's pregnant and he's not telling anyone imagine not talking about that when you're out there you're sitting there for hours and days and weeks and he's thinking about it all the time and other people talk about their family and he can't talk about it because he doesn't want to be

it to be threatening and so he doesn't say anything he sees her he hugs her he whispers and asks um you know how is the baby and she says something like great it's a boy or it's a girl i can't remember and like oh you're an audience you're just so in on this and he cries his eyes out and doesn't say anything he makes it to the end and at the very end he's a strong he's a strong big fella at the end he breaks down in his jury like facing the jury and tells them she's pregnant I've and this whole time I couldn't tell you and I wanted to tell you and I wanted to bond about it but I couldn't because I knew that if you knew you wouldn't want to let me get to this point

but now it's ammunition to win because it's like I was so strong that I didn't tell you that the whole time oh my god this happens in another one does he win he wins yeah it's so good what i know i won't keep their kids a secret well the big one is luke in the australian survivor where people find out he has disabled children if they didn't know that yeah great reveal at the end hard to say maybe hard to say but you don't know he's also very charismatic they definitely do get rid of him because he has disabled children man it's a hard sentence to say into a microphone and it's not and and it's also very hard for the person whose decision it was yeah to make that choice and what the person who had to choose to do that like they all had to choose to vote him out and

that's really hard for them to do they don't want to do that but it's a social game so your social capital that helps you but that's also why no one would we wanted to didn't want to do that, but it's a social game. So your social capital that helps you win. But that's also why no one would want to flick at the end of our season. You know, it's tough. So the social game is not on TV as much. That's hard to translate to TV. So who else do you play

with who you win? They had a much better game than they looked like they had on television. In any respect. Flick is always the best example of this for me because her voting record is never amazing you know like her if you look at her the way she it's never always like the person who goes home she's often votes for wrong yeah um but i think every season i play with her if she gets to the end she'll win she's just so like i love her i think she's awesome like yeah it's tricky but it's and like so like i love her i think she's awesome like yeah it's tricky but it's it's and like well and then she gets in with that's just it's such a good bit where she talks her way in with liz and shawnee on

this season and that shows how good she is and they were about to use an idol to save her and she would have run back to the pit tribe as soon as she was with them like did you that really good tribal where they're like that's they didn't say anything that was coming up. They just said, this is the best tribal ever. Were you aware at the time that something weird had happened that night? Yep. The next day we went to a challenge and they looked broken. Like they all looked really broken.

And, you know, the host, JLP, will ask, you know, do you want to talk about it? And they kind of, I think it is shown that they, you know, the host, JLP, will ask, like, you know, do you want to talk about it? And they kind of, I think it is shown that they, like, normally what happens when another tribe comes back is they don't want to give anything away about where the voting lines are. Yeah. Because that's their information that they can use at a swap. And so they're all just like, it was unanimous. They always say it was unanimous.

We all just voted someone out unanimously so no one knows. And it might not have been every time but this time they were like simon was throwing shit at george and he was throwing it back at simon and they weren't like and geordie was saying it was horrendous like it just we could tell something bad had happened yeah did you know the specifics and before like until it came out on telly did someone say before it came on telly i knew yes yeah we all tell each other everything chat it's we so we went over to kieran's girlfriend's boyfriend you know like all this anyway with kieran's girlfriend watched survivor for the first time and on that episode on that episode and it was very weird to watch someone get sucked in to the show on that because first she's watching and going all right it's

people strategizing and then it's like who is this insane and then she sees George for the first time he's like it's just on the beach alone going it's death or glory and she goes who's this man is he an actor have they put an actor on the show and then man i think we were all sweaty by the end of it it's it's the best you have just been in i think the best season of television that's ever been made in this country i know and i yeah it's so good and a lot of that is thanks to george and his commitment to the show i think it's it's everyone in the season that makes it really good yeah it's the editing it's so much about it that makes it really good yeah it's the editing it's so much about it that makes it really good um it's a the when you're gunning for him and the first wave doesn't

work and the second one you get what you want but it's not enough to keep it going and then it's kind of a perfect mix of players though because you've got you've got people simon is like a perfect comic foil. Post-merge, it's heartbreaking. Isn't he amazing? I love Simon. I think All-Stars, Season 5, Australian Survivor, they bring players back who've played before, right? But those players have learnt that actually the way to win is create alliance that's strong and don't do anything.

And it's super boring to watch. I think that second half of that season is not that interesting to watch because it's just a big alliance that maybe they'll break. No, they don't break. They just hold, hold, hold, hold. So sometimes when you bring back returning players, it's not that interesting. But I think that this worked really well because you had, like,

I didn't really care because i won already so like i don't feel like i'm here let's make some good tv let's do the best you can george is super motivated to like be interesting in the game you know to try to win but not at all costs like not at the cost of not making great tv this is the yeah but also that he, they're setting it up like he's gone soft on the last vote, right? Like his love of Jerry means it's wrong, like he can't do the strategic thing. And so like even then you get a beautiful, more general? No, don't you say anything. All right.

Oh, that page was for more like, that wasn't what it meant. I've never watched the episode, but I have heard what's in it. Well, like, Liz is on the beach going, like, can I move this up? I don't know. I don't know what I want to do. It's not necessary to do it now. She's there going, like, George, you know what you have to do.

Which is also, like, a great pivot from him going to her earlier on, you know, like pull your head in. We have to get rid of Shani so that I can go forward. They're doing good. It is. But like, I haven't seen. What's your prediction?

When will this go up? Well, we'll do some version of this before, as soon as we can. Okay. So like you can give me a prediction. But my, like i looked on sports bit oh don't do that i know okay so i have some idea of who probably is that but even then on sports but they can only know the top two because they don't pull the votes out ahead of time but even then i don't see

it's like all right george is not going to win the challenge at the end if george gets to the challenge at the end he doesn't win it why not because physically it's it he he doesn't win a lot of endurance challenges i'm not saying he won't but if it's like if i was if i had george's body and game i'd be going i want to my best bet to get through is to have a chance of winning the physical challenge at the end, because I've played really, really well. And I think I could win. So at that point you want to go,

I think I can, I can maybe beat Jerry in something. I can maybe beat Nina in something. And those are the two people that I want to be with at the last three, even though only Jerry is not going to bring Nina through. I think like Jerry will probably bring me through with him, which is great. But with Liz might be a good enough player not to bring me through to the end.

Matt is not going to want to sit with me at the end. Although we're getting Matt going to camera, going like, I'm not his pawn. I will find a chance to stand on my own two feet. And it's like, it's this beautiful young man crying on a beach, also crying, going oh i have an identity and it's whoever's editing this season they're getting the best time around personally so i think it's like whoever wins that then sherry has a great story at the end

for his fan that's been hinted at but it sounds like he's got a ripper story and also they haven't shown if it's a final two or a final three how do they when do you find out if it's going to be final two or final three as a player yeah at the end so just at some point jlp goes ah it's three so how do you plan for that you just you just get surprised when it's the end well you're trying to count like um my understanding is they need 24 episodes so i assume that means 24 travel councils and so you're trying to count it out and you know if they they my understanding is that the season sits by itself should nothing bad happen and 24 players can play they need two non-eliminations and then that's a full season and there should be a final two yeah that but if something happens they might

need another non-elimination so if jackie goes off on an injury maybe they need another non-elimination so that it can be a final two so you're trying to count the end you know how many days so they can't keep you there past a certain number of days you're you're you're told how many days there are in the game so you're counting towards the end being like all right so like it looks like this will be a two or three i heard about your spreadsheets oh yeah um and also did you end up getting the box of you made your own box of puzzles at the end i made um i got i would watch shows like this previous seasons and pause when they had a puzzle, screenshot, print,

laminate, cut. I love it. Yeah, but also before you play, there is a period of time where you're locked down. So before I went out there, I had a 10 day period in Queensland. This was season 6 where we weren't in the game yet

or even near it. Are you with each other? No, you're definitely not with each other. You're like hidden away from each other. You can't meet each other. In different parts of Queensland? Yep. Like I was in Cairns. Other people were in Townsville. Cairns is great. I love Cairns. But do you know that you're playing for sure at that point?

What's this alternate thing? I heard you say that there was an alternate thing. Yeah, this is what I'm... America does this. So America has a couple of alternates. So they'll take 18 players. 18? Yeah.

They have 18. Let's say it's 18. Yeah, gosh, I think they have 18. 18 players go out there and then they have two extra alternates. So 20 players might do the prep phase. And you don't know who you are yet. Like, they don't go, you're an alternate. I think you know at that point you're an alternate or not.

And if someone has to go out sick before they can actually start, then you can go in. That would be so sad to have that sprung on you, right? I don't think you'd be sprung. I think you'd be like you're going out as an alternate and if something happens then you can go into the game. All right. But I just wasn't sure if they were doing that or not.

They don't do it. They don't do it. So if you're going out, you're going out. Okay. If I'm to watch it, right, I think I can play a relatively good social game. When I was on jury duty, I got those people to love it. I can definitely talk about the trial off camera.

It was ages ago. But it's like, I think that the first couple of days of just not saying anything particularly egregious, which seems to be, unless there's like a mix-up and a challenge. You'll be fine. Okay. So the first couple of days, maybe we get through. Just be useful and not annoying. All right.

We'll keep a note. And then contribute physically through those early challenges as best you can. Don't be a liability. Don't let anyone know if you get injured necessarily. Yeah, I guess. Jerry's foot was a big thing this year. Jerry probably would have been a target regardless of the foot. Okay.

Well, like the oldest dude is often like a target. It's hard. Like, you kind of want to be roughly around the same age as the people out there so that you can, in all of the downtime, bond over stuff. Like, oh, I've got a baby. Oh, I've got a baby. Oh, I've got a baby. Oh, you're doing stuff in the backyard.

Like, I don't know. Whatever, you bond over. Just start, like, AFL. If you play AFL or you love AFL players, whatever. I've spent a lot of time in pubs as a stand-up comedian trying to bond on those easy... You'd be fine. I've got to tell you, the having a child thing

is a key to a door for huge numbers of people. Yeah. It's bizarre. I'm sure it is. This season that we just did, there were two parents out there. Oh. It was very strange that there wasn't many. But plenty of hopeful parents

so you can always talk to them nah it's not the same it doesn't work no but whatever as long as you can get the bond there's just won't be an issue

there are like certain jokes where like there's a joke about Madeleine McCann I do and about how it's okay that they killed their kids and no and like parents love it

parents are like yeah I've had terrible thoughts about killing my children and people that kids like how could you ever i'm that one so it's a weird no it's like it's a hard one so we get through that stage um like tactically i like it i i know they're a big i know where i go bad tactically, which is like I get weird fuzzy thinking. I struggle to – when I play chess and I'm in a high stress – I love chess. I'm a big chess on the phone guy. Do you play chess?

I can play, but I don't play much. Thick Chess Daddy is 69. Thick Chess – Thick Chess Daddy. Oh, Thick Chess Daddy. Thick Chess Daddy is 69, but I'm thick chest daddy. No. Thick chest daddy 69. And I like, but I'm like 80% worse when I'm under big stress. Oh, okay.

That's fine. But I think I can talk my way through it. And then also very grouchy when hungry. Well, yeah, that's it. But I can start to teach my body not to have it. But you said when you were watching it that you look for people who are like you. Oh, yeah. Yes. And you watch their season and you go, I'm going to do what they do.

I'm going to be aware of the things that they did badly. Oh, yeah. And you watch their season and you go, I'm going to do what they do. I'm going to be aware of the things that they did badly. Yeah, I should get those spreadsheets up. If I could have the spreadsheet, that'd be great. But having met me and spoken to me now for some time, whose season do I have to watch? Oh, gosh. And who are you like? You have time to reflect.

I should have asked you that earlier and come back to it at the end. Let's think about the season that's on right now. Okay. Who do you think you're most like on that season? So I wouldn't think that you're most like Simon. You don't seem to be like Simon. No. No.

I like Simon. Yeah. But I don't see... You're not similar. No. No. Are you... Who are you...

I'm starting to think this is an interesting thing like what were you like at school like what group at school at high school yeah were you probably hanging out with um unpopular early on yeah and then like a very like a nerd i was a debater yeah and so i had a tight-knit group of debating friends for like middle school. And then just something weird happened. I was like unpopular all the way through school. Like not hugely unpopular but could never have been described as popular.

And then like the last two years I was in like a school play in year 10 where I was funny for the school play and then something turned around and it's like no one really knew who I was but I had some weird energy and I got voted. I got a prefect. I got voted for a prefect and I was like there was some girl attention and it's like something pivoted. Okay.

And there was like a mystique. I don't want to sound like an idiot. That's such a good framework for playing this game, I think, because I think that you want to be the kind of person who can get along with all kinds of people, right? You want to, but that includes the kids who are like popular at school. Like, because they might have the power. If there's enough of them there, they could be the power.

And if you don't merge into that, then you're in trouble. You have to be able to be with that. I've since gotten better at that. Yeah, I think it's important just in case that is the power. Certainly the Heroes tribe, that was the power, I felt, was the kids who were the cool kids at school. It was actually the same in Season 6. It was the power, I felt, was the kids who were the cool kids at school. It was actually the same in season six. It was the same.

You just called them, in a podcast I heard, like kids up the back of the bus. Yeah. You called them the cool kids. That was my experience. Where I grew up, I would catch a bus to school and there was the kids at the back of the bus who were the cool ones and not always the nice ones

or anything, but then there were the ones who would sit at the front and not go up there. Yeah. I think that if and not go up there yeah i think that if you can go up there that's great because but ultimately you have to still be able to um understand and have empathy for the other people because they're the ones who will probably be the most useful for you in the game yeah because you don't want to just like play with the cool kids the whole time. No, it'd be... It's boring and it's annoying and the audience wants you to overthrow them. It's All Stars. I'm here to make big moves.

Yeah, but so you need the connections that come from the conversations you have with the other people, but you have to fit with the group. Like, I don't know. So it sounds like you're enough of a chameleon in your experiences that that would work. I should let other people answer that for me because I'm not... I think other people telling you what you're like is a good nick idanza who lives here in adelaide and he's played twice he said that before he went no he was in adelaide because ak is here as well yep all right ak i'm like ak said he would come on the podcast as well

he's a fucking legend they're all legends ak's um i'm getting married next weekend and ak is my photographer oh how good so good i met him when he was a wedding dj he still is he's like sliding into the photography now it's a great double business we should talk to him about getting you anyway yeah sorry so nick lives here as well nick lives here ak lives here henry yeah um a guy called matt tarrant fringe yeah i only know him through the fringe i haven't seen his survival he's played first season he's a g um not someone called page is here as well not a huge people amount of people here but I only know him through the fringe. I haven't seen his Survivor season. He's played first season. He's a OG. Someone called Paige is here as well.

Not a huge amount of people here, but some. Maybe. Not Paige, not Country Town. No. No. Man, I was watching her stories. Do you watch her stories when that was coming up? She's like, I unfollowed her.

I couldn't do it. I could start to do it. It's like, yeah, she is a country girl. And Rogue is wrong to be saying that. could start to do it. It's like, yeah, she is a country girl. Yeah. And Rogue is wrong to be saying that. And then she's coming on there going like, all you fucking dogs coming for me. And I go, oh, it's every day. Every day she drives 80 kilometres to get phone reception and just goes hard on strangers on the internet.

And then pisses off students. Yeah. But that's part of what's awesome about the game is that when would you ever meet that person and have them in a room with Ben Law and, like, with Rogue and you just get to sit there and, like, either you're a part of the drama or you just watch it, like, and it's right there.

Being exposed of, like, what you were saying before about I didn't want to be caught having a side chat with them. I also, like, and very gregarious and I get wrapped up in I really enjoy all the chat I think that's a better way to play that's how I played the first time it was more successful I think you just have to be brave and have all your conversations and not worry and not assume that people are like being so concerned or what are you saying like you just have to do it you have to be I think I think it's more fun to play aggressively it's not always the most successful sure but like ultimately I think it's more fun to play aggressively. It's not always the most successful. Sure.

But, like, ultimately, I think, yeah, you just got to... But every game is very different, right? And you've got to realise what game you're in and who you are. That's what I'm starting to pick up. There's no recipe to win. There really isn't. Like, if you can get in and play... That seems like the hardest thing is to get in. Oh, that is harder.

Like, yeah, because once you win, there's a one in 24 shot of winning. But, like, to get in, there's, like, a one in what? How many thousand chance of getting in? Like, it's harder to get in there's like a 1 in what how many thousand chance of getting in like it's harder to get in than to play we're going to work

on me getting in Sam we're going to work on me getting in you've been so generous with your time I'm so blessed I got please take the shirts

for Jimmy if he wants them and you can have one too so when I came out of this season I get to the jury and I get a phone call to Jimmy

and so I'm like how are you what's happening are you okay it's been two months are you okay by yourself and he's just like yeah wait a minute

let me just grab something and he goes off and grabs your poetry book and comes back no honestly this is like the first conversation I have with him when I get back

I'm like waiting for him to tell me all about like how work's been, how's family. And he's like, no, no, no. I just go, let me just read you this poetry. And he reads the one where it's like, I could have been a dancer. I'm like, he loves that one.

And he just like, I'm like can barely hear him speaking because he's not breathing because he's laughing so much. And I'm like, okay, so you're good. That's great that you're good. All right, that's wonderful. But like, that was the first thing, the conversation I had with him when I came out of the game.

It's very touching. And I'm just like, what is this? What are you reading? I mean, what is this poem? That's, uh... I don't know, it just... What do you think the names I say on the first front call back from survival, what would they be?

What if it doesn't matter? I guess poetry poetry if you like oh if you can get out there and if you get to that 100 jimmy will write a poem and you can read and what included in the letter yeah have the letter be oh that's all the letter will be it would just be like yeah i wanted a message from my wife but it's it's a his husband has written me a poem that's um he was at i met him at a yeah he came to a show with my friend sam yep and that's when we met and it was actually yeah and he deflected so well that you weren't there and i now realize that you must have been that's when i was away yes okay yeah um but he i'm a big fan would have he i don't know if he would have been known that you liked survivoror would he have known that

I didn't talk about it I he'd been saying for me for ages he'd been like let's listen to this podcast and like I like to I like to be quiet

in the car sorry I can't tell you how many wives and girlfriends complain that their male counterpart makes them listen to the podcast on drives yeah but that's great

like I like oh it's great but I have a lot of like I was at a Christmas party this year and women just kept coming up to me going like my fucking husband mate we listened to it we listened to the christmas special three times on the way from rockhampton now the first two was fine but i didn't want to do it again sorry that's great that's so you i didn't know you were a podcast listener i didn't know even he was listening well he is i i have

listened to i like i understand yes and um but for a while like like a couple of not a couple of weeks like at least a week every time we get in the car he'd be like can we please can i put this on i'm like oh just can we just talk like you know like really and then eventually you put it on and then i'm like hey very good and then it gets to the point where you were talking about like ah survivor and how much you love survivor and then like you're like i could play one day and then you're like, I just watched it and I could never play. It's too hard. What? Man, yeah.

Because sometimes you go, well, I can't. I watch it and I go, I can't do, like this interview. I was terrified to do this interview because I'd listened to that interview earlier in the day

in the deep dive and I was like, I can't do that interview, right? No, but don't do that. She does those interviews. Thank you. Don't replace that. That was my breakthrough

where it was like, I don't have to. I get to do my show and I get to have Hayley on it and that's so cool. And I'm very good friends with her and I almost wouldn't want to replicate that. She's amazing. She's amazing at knowing this game and analysing it. And I wouldn't want to take away from her the deep dive, which is like the full analysis of like...

Every round. Yeah. And your retention of what had happened out there is huge. Well, it's because you live and breathe it and then once you come out, you rehash it on the phone to all the players when everyone is like, what could I have done differently?

Because you're going to this existential crisis, like why didn't I win? And then it airs and everyone else has an opinion on it. So you replay it a lot. Can I ask, psychologically, not everyone gets to go to Jury Villa. You didn't get to go to Jury Villa the first time. I didn't need to.

No, because you'd won. But it just meant you were back in your life, right? After the show. It meant you didn't decompress very well. That's what I wanted to ask you. Because Stevie has to go home the day before Jury Villa. He's still been out there for like 20 days and then he's home. How good is Jury Villa for like helping?

It's so good mentally. It's so good. It's really tough for the players who don't get to do that yeah um and because they also don't know what happens at the second half of the game and everyone feels like and they can't tell anyone how far they went so all their friends are like yeah and so people like what's shawnee like and they're like she's great like they didn't meet her they did because they never got to that point yeah so that's tough for them but to yeah jury villa is it's great it's. But, yeah, Druevilla is great.

It's great because then you leave the game, you're like, I don't care. I'm done. I don't care. The men all become like, even the big butch boys become very effeminate on their first thing back. Like Sean, huge, the whole time he's won that. It's beautiful to see. Just the first time he gets a robe and a clean,

and the whole way he sits is different. And it's's like it's fabulous out here on the jury and i love i'd want to get to that point i want to be pampered into a new personality if you can't win or if you're not gonna win yeah like that's why that's another reason you don't want to come second or like third because you don't really get that other experience like Like that experience of like being in a resort for like a week and eating like two breakfasts, two lunch, two dinners and just doing, just reflecting on the game at no technology, which is really nice. Like you still don't have a phone.

So they give you the phone call and then they take the phone away? There's just a phone that you share to make one phone call a day. Yeah. Wow. For like a limit, a limited time. You don't have your phone, which is amazing. It's great. Not to have technology.

No, it would be really nice. I can't believe on the Jury Villa episode there's an edited out bonus section, footage somewhere of Jimmy reading my poem. That's not what I thought had happened in between the call for starting and ending. He just laughs so hard. Out loud, so hard.

That's really, he gets two shits. Out loud. So hard. That's really... That's really... He gets two shirts. Yeah, well, so then that's when he... Because when he showed me and he was like, oh, yeah, you like Survivor and you talk about it in your podcast. I love it. I was like, what a weird crossover that you were also part of the journey in some way. It's a very Adelaide experience.

Oh, yeah. Are there any points where you went... Is there anyone you went, like, I'm trying to find an in with you and I just can't do it? Like, you seem super affable. Right? You're able to... You can always find an in with someone.

You can find an in? Then it has to be a strong enough in so that when you need to pull them back in later, you can... Well, the trouble is, you can always find an in, but is it like relatively stronger than someone else's?

Right. Like, as in like, can I find an in with Sam? Yeah, we'll have something we can talk about. Is it as strong as the bond he has with sean no yeah like is it strong as what sean has with david like both no that's stronger i'll find an in but like but then that was a weird moment when people rebel against that like when matt chooses to come away onto the tribe that he's been with for a couple of days rather than being with the big meaty boys even though he's a big you know yeah physical dude well that's a i don't think at that point that's a social decision that's probably a who do i think i can be at the end decision right and like i don't didn't want to

sit next to everyone and like he thinks his shots with the other people is better he's so they're only showing him being funny now he's really funny matt yeah it's hard because i haven't watched the last year okay they showed like none of that early on they showed none of his personality yeah and he's the only one like there are a lot of people who don't i get that i'm on that stats page where it's like plus or minus percent like george 156 percent of like confessionals yeah sorry and then some people get like a confessional or something. Yeah. I mean, you can usually tell the winner, like on the edit. But you could ask us when we come out of the game as players, who do you think, put it in order,

how many confessionals do you think everyone's going to get? And we won't know because it's the editors who decide who gets all that airtime. There was something AK was saying where he was like, he said, the producers told him, you're giving us great stuff, we can use none of it. We can use none of it? Yeah.

Why? Because the things that he was talking about didn't end up being important in the game. That's it. And you just don't know at the time. And you could, for example, the Heroes Tribe were doing everything right at the start of the season.

We were winning all the challenges. We weren't going to tribal council unless we threw it together to someone we didn't want. Like, that is a good recipe to increase the odds that all of us get far in the game. Yes. But you get no airtime because you're like, if you lose a reward and then win an immunity challenge,

you, why, they're not showing you. You're just having a nice time. You don't have the reward and you're not in your tribal. There's, well, this happens when people start throwing your name up later and they go hayley and then someone will go like oh yeah i've been thinking about how we've been talking about hey but they're not showing like the the past five tribals where something has happened to eventually keep your name out of it but like clearly people like they're responding in a way where you go oh that must be well they must constantly be a target on Hayley's back

that we're not seeing. Yeah, well, I think that probably was. But they also want you to get to the end of the episode and be like, ooh, who's going to go? Man, that Rogue episode, I really thought you were going home. Oh, did you? That's a beautifully edited episode. That's great. I should go back and watch it.

I was like, what's she doing throwing it? Because how much better if the which I felt the time and I think most of the players would tell you that it was going to be rogue like it wasn't really going to be me

like that maybe conversation did happen at some point in like prior 12 days how far in did you realise it wasn't going to be you because it was

if she had said nothing you're the obvious target there into the days yeah like hours even. Like what happened where you went, do you remember going, I should be the target? People are talking about me as someone who goes home first

and I'm the winner. But now I think, hey. I think I just knew, I'd had enough conversations with people like Flick and Sean to know that, yeah, they don't want to go to the end with me and they don't really want to get to that individual challenge part with me, but they definitely don't want me to go at the start because they when people if i go yeah who's the next biggest threat right this was weird because in the george because george's name maybe they

were just using that to have drama about road going home because on when it when they're discussing it with george and he's in a similar position on his tribe, they're all going, but I want him as a shield. But no one is having the shield conversation on camera. So they are in real life. Same as what was happening with George. Sean wants George for a shield. Sean, they want me for a shield. Like, we all know there's mutual...

And that's also why, like, the second half of the game, all the new players get voted out and it's all the old players, the returning players are there because they're all kind of realising that if we vote, if they become minorities and it's just new players get voted out and it's all the old players, the returning players are there because they're all kind of realising that if we vote, if they become minorities and it's just new players, then they become big threats.

But if we're all surrounded by each other and then we can just take each other out of the second half of the game, then like we're, like it never really gets said out loud that clearly, like in that way, but we realise what's happened in the second half of the game

is we haven't gone for each other because we knew that this was our best shot at getting to the second half. the game is we haven't gone for each other because we knew that this was our best shot at getting to the yes second half and then but do you i mean you think you shot too early at george you think you should have waited and done that later you expressed yeah i think that like i'm happy with how it went i think that my road to the end was going to be pretty treacherous regardless but because i got so close i'll think back and say well if i just did this differently yeah maybe that would happen but then i don't know what the next step like i assume i know but i don't know that thing with the idols is a insane curveball

it might not have been that good for me long term do you really think you would have been the next person no i could have been yeah i don't know you can't know i think that you can't get stuck with george out it becomes more like what could happen, who then takes the reins, who, you know, but with him in, it's him in charge the whole time. And you see it. And that makes everyone feel safe and secure. And also someone is always willing to go.

It seems like at most tribal, someone's willing to go, and this is my shot, and then they're gone. Like, you don't want to put yourself. Yeah. You don't want to, because we were thinking about, like, at tribal, almost nothing works like is there something say you're in there with like six people left and um you're all sort of aware that you don't want to go to the end with george because of his tactical game and how the jury feel about it say you win immunity that week and you've been

tight with george can you come out of that tribal and just like break the line and go, by the way, everybody tonight, I haven't discussed this with any of you before the tribal tonight. I'm voting for George. I'm not going home, but it's a good chance for everyone to jump in there with me or like you can. Yeah. It'd be a scary thing to do for against George himself though,

because he is very good at tribal and he is really good at having... Somehow having this conversation where you then... Like, unless you're very confident you can do that well, it's not how I would play. No. But for myself, knowing myself, it might work well for you. Well, I'm just struck by it would be great telly.

And that is... And I know that that's something I have to think about internally. What's worth having a cool moment where you go, that was a great effort and pragmatically. So the first time I played, my mentality was 23 people are going to lose. I'm probably going to lose. I'll try, but I'm probably going to lose. So what of these two things is the worst outcome for me?

Besides winning great. But if I get really far, but I don't do anything because I'm scared and I don't want to make the TV moments and I don't want to make any moves and then I get voted out. Or I try to make moves and I get voted out. And I knew that I would hate to do nothing and get voted out. So you try to make moves and i get voted out and i and i knew that i would hate to

do nothing and get voted out so you just did cool shit because the thing with the public idol where you don't play it that's so cool yeah why not like i'm probably not going to win anyway but like i i and from my experience of watching people play this game now people are often more upset for getting no edit at all than they are for getting like maybe a slightly bad edit you know like you know people that you go out there you leave your family you spend all that time and then it's like i was disappeared yeah you sit with your family to watch it and then you're not even shown and they can that sucks like that's if that you know you think you're going out you want to yeah see your experience like so therefore when you're sitting there at

tribal and you're trying to decide do i blow up right now because it would be it would be really fun and i'll never get this chance again i think i think you just do it i mean i'd like to do i just i think like yeah you think of things that would be entertaining and fun and then try and work back is there ever a pragmatic situation where you could do that and it would be the right thing to do like i think of when you say i'm flipping a coin with this idol it's really cool and it's the right thing to do in that moment and like some of that is stockpiling moves that that could be moves yeah well that that was that certainly was just that didn't come really from thinking this is going to be a cool move. That was like, what else am I going to do?

We need to get a majority, we don't have one. And I remember thinking, I don't want to make a big deal of this because I don't want to be like, guess what, everybody, I'm flipping a coin or whatever. I was trying not to talk about it unless I had to talk about it at the time I had to talk about it. But that will still cut like like i remember finishing that season and thinking that's going to be a big

deal in that episode like i think that's gonna but no one else thought that like there wasn't other players being like oh yeah when you do that that's going to be like a big part of the episode they that's the whole jeopardy of the episode yeah but like everyone is their own main character and yeah they're they're not remembering that as a big deal because you're not i don't know you're not grandstanding it i don't know well there another one was like how could you wear how could you wear like if people don't know you had is it would it ever be appropriate if you had a secret idol to put it on and show people beforehand, like before you go into, and it's like, how could you make that work?

Would it be, because it would make people scramble immediately. And like, so maybe if you wanted to break up an alliance, that could be a good thing to do. George has done this. This is a great thing to do. Yeah. If you're, yeah, if you,

if all the votes are on you and everyone's not making another plan, you can just put your idol on and be like, well, it's not me. So you better make another plan. And then you can still play it for yourself, but maybe you've broken up the- Or on you and everyone's not making another plan, you can just put your idol on and be like, well, it's not me, so you better make another plan. And then you can still play it for yourself, but maybe you've broken up the... Or maybe you don't play it because they've already got another plan

and they've already put the votes there and you don't know. Or they're going to bluff you. If they don't have enough numbers to split to put the votes on you just in case you don't play it, then... So it can be worth it. Oh, yeah. There's so much good drama you can do. It's just such a good format.

The game is so good. Is that baby alright? How long has this gone for? Two or eight. Oh shit, I've got to get home to my other kids. You have more children, right? Yeah, we've got three kids. Where are the other ones?

With my dad watching ABC Kids. I think the kids chose a break now. Alright. We spoke about judging risk. Talking to your hand in the rope challenge uh why it's important to teach young people about pain and the nature of your work i think we got i think we got through thank you so i'm so this will not be a two hour oh i'm so on it and so blessed and i'm really uh we're all big big fans and this is very very exciting oh i'm so happy um yeah does anyone else have anything that they wanted to ask i thought you said this season i'm like sorry

oh that's cool you're, that's the one. Who have you picked for this season? Are they still in? Oh, great. This is going to be a deal. But I'm fascinated that you stopped watching. And you're like, you've got a lot on? Oh, because you're getting married next week?

Well, yeah, that. But also I had this big grant that I put in yesterday. So it's done now, thank God. And I couldn't do both. i think i've yeah you try i can't believe you've come here the week of your wedding that's so it's next week jimmy's organized it i'm just gonna rock up okay hey it's mitch from side note podcast and i'm here to tell you about the new google pixel 9 powered by gemini anyone who knows me knows the Pixel has always been my favorite out of all the phones I've ever had. Now, with Gemini built in, it's basically my personal AI assistant.

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