The James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan - S2 Ep10: Street Talk #2

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

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Start your free trial today. I've been thinking a lot about the Manosphere, because that's in the news lately and I guess that there is a sense in which I am in the manosphere, although more specifically today I'm in a tree. But there's all these men who are trying to be like men for men, manly men, content men. And then there's this other kind of man who's trying to be an alternative to the manosphere for young men.

Do you know what I'm talking about, Sam? There are these men who will say, well, I am a non-toxic man. and I am setting myself up so young men can follow me and not especially toxic man and these guys who are trying to tap into men and lead them away from the manosphere I don't want to name any names I don't want to cast any aspersions

but they do to the last seem like guys who've raped so I think obviously also the guys who some of the guys in the manosphere they'll just come out and literally say I love raping but the guys who are trying to lure guys away from the manorses. Do you know what I mean, Sam? Anyway, thank you for joining us for me here

on the James Donald Ford's McCann, Catamaran plant. I don't know, this, I mean, to be a toxic man is one thing, but then to posture as a non-toxic man is another, for to be a man is to be toxic. And I was thinking about this with the specific topic of throwing your hand through a wall. Sam, are you ever throw your hand through a wall? you never throw a hand at a wall, you never flung a fist at a wall? Because I'll hear women sometimes talk about men who do that,

you know, an abusive ex-partner or something, and they'll go, oh, he was a wall puncher. You know, if he punches wolves, he wants to be punching you, and that's the sort of, that's the message he's sending. And sometimes, maybe, maybe that is sometimes, certainly I think it's wrong to punch a wall while a woman's in the room. That's my rule for wall punching Sammy. if a lady is present

you can't be punching a wall you've got to take yourself because I'm not going to say people shouldn't men I'm not going to say men should never punch a wall that would be crazy sometimes and I've had big times I mean I've got full kids I got foul kids

and a podcast to make and a trip coming up to the United States some tickets are still on sale and sometimes you know sometimes you want to punch a wall man and you should be allowed to It should be a firm wall that's only going to hurt your hand, and you should be alone. But I think punching a wall, you know, boys punch walls, girls cut themselves.

That's the sphere that it's in. I think sometimes a wall punch for a fella, it's not about the other person. It's about the feeling, it's about wanting to recalibrate. I'm not a big wall puncher. I don't think I've punched a wall in years, but I'll feel the urge sometimes. I go, ha! Ah! Ah! You know?

And I think people have to be allowed. Men, specifically, have to be allowed, in private. I was watching Alistair Clarkson this week. There's an old clip of Alistair Clarkson at the end of quarter time. He's a coach. He was coaching Hawthorne at the time, I believe. And he puts his hand through a wall because someone missed a free kick or something. You know, that's a three-time, four-time.

I forget how many times. That's a premiership coach. That's a man who redefined the game. I bet there's a lot of guys out there who coached. AFL teams who don't put their hand through a wall. How many premierships have they got? I wonder. You've got to be allowed to put your hand through a wall sometime. Not that, again, I can remember doing it recently. Certainly as a teenager, but I, you know, it's about the self. It's about the feeling and girls, should we take cutting away from girls? I don't know that we're going to retain all

of our mental health sponsorships if I continue talking this way. I just wanted to say, let's have a more open, you know? I don't know. What I was saying, I think I was trying to say that I really wanted a punch of a wall this way. It was a really bad week and I was really unhappy. And so I've dragged Sam to the Botanic Gardens to make me to the podcast up here in this fig tree because that always made me happy when I was a child. And I guess everything else that I was saying was just sort of preamble and getting ready to in some vague way, not have to talk about being in a tree, but really all I wanted to do was climb a tree. And I wish I'd gotten higher in the tree. I feel sad for only having got. I thought I'd at least make it to there.

you know I think I could make it that's actually lower but it's further out so it would be more impressive but they've cut out a lot of the things on this tree that would make it easier to climb you know as they do because they don't understand that climbing a tree is important for a man just as putting a hand through a wall is important for a man

so too is climbing a tree but that's it's not advice anyone gives a young man they go well you know what you need to do to feel a little better Put your hand through a wall. Alone. It's important to say this. And by put your hand, I mean, obviously, if you're damaging a wall, is very bad.

You should find something that could only cause you nerve damage, and you should punch that alone if you have to punch something. And you should not let anybody know about it or ever talk about it. So there's all these people have engraved things into this tree. People have made it up this far. There's J plus M. Someone's done that. And someone's gone M and C.

and that's in a heart. And there's P and M. And there's a third one in here that's an M as well. And I wonder if it's the same M every time. And I wonder if M, you know, every new relationship, M goes, all right, back to the tree.

This time, it's going to work. You know, J or C or P is with them and goes, who are all these other M's? And presumably Madeline says, don't worry about that. It could be anybody. I don't know why. it has to be Madeline. What's an M? I couldn't think of another M name. I love the Morton Bay

fig. Maybe, I mean, because this is a Morton Bay fig, I believe, is the name of this tree. Maybe the M stands for Morton Bay fig. And maybe these are people who come up here and they're in love with the tree. Maybe I'd like to come down because there's probably some dirty things going on. Although I will note, Sam, if you catch the bottom, one of the great things about the Morton Bay fig tree in Australia is it has these like little walls either side of it and little crevice down the bottom. So I did a little wee before climbing up here because they're sort of nature's urinal is how I like to think of them. They're very private. They're good when you've had a night out and you're stumbling home. You come through, pissing in public is important for men. That's another thing

I'd say, you know, pissing in public, putting your hands through a wall, alone. Pissing in public, alone. A lot of these things involve being alone. How long have we been going for? Well, I'll come down and we'll go to a street talk, but I think that's as strong a beginning as any. You've got weight loss goals, but hitting them is another story. Enter Weight Loss by Hymns. It's designed to support you in losing the weight and keeping it off, and Hymns now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including Wiggyvee Pills and the Wigee-G-V pen.

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They'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Oh, we're good to go? Fantastic. Welcome on back to the James Donald Forbes-Macon, Katamaran Plan. We're here at the University, where I spent many years, the University of Adelaide.

It used to be... No, it's now called Adelaide University. Used to be the University of Adelaide. They've merged it with a second university, which I found to be very upsetting. I like to thought of a smaller, more elite, you know, like at college or Oxford. They're all individual colleges.

It's about being small. It's about being nimble. It's about being independent. Not about a huge thinking machine. Anyway, that's my personal grievance. And I won't go on and on about it. There are some pro-Palestine students here, and we thought we'd come and do a street talk at the university,

and I do wonder if any of the pro-Palestinian students would like to come and do the podcast. I don't know how to get their attention and ask them. I feel very embarrassed. I don't want to go over them and say, you know, hey, we're doing it. Because people, I mean, you're young people doing some sort of protest, doing some sort of raising funds and money to help, you know, a cause that you believe in. And there'd be so many dickheads. you know what I mean we all have seen the dickhead content that people go

oh actually did you know so I don't want to do that hey if any of you would like to be on the podcast you're very welcome I just don't want to harass you sorry how do you know Darcy how do you know Darcy come and talk about Darcy how do you know Darcy they know Darcy come on who will come and

who will come and talk to us I didn't know Darcy had become a celebrity will no one come and talk about Darcy? Because I've only met Darcy on the street and they met him at Gladys Simchune and Darcy's now the co-host of the show. We're doing a show with him tomorrow at Earned Malley, a little literary bar in Adelaide's inner east. Will you come and, how do you know who Darcy is?

You've got... Please, please, please, come and speak with us. Please, I beg you. I'm not trying to confuse it. You can bring a flag. You can, you know, whatever you like. I'm not trying to do a gotcha or anything. we just have to do the podcast every week

now with this can this get you sent to prison having river to the sea in Australia only in Queensland what was your name my name's raff from students for palestine this is raff from students for Palestine he's got his sign what do we have there on the sign this is a rally to stand with palestine and against Israel's assault on Lebanon and Iran and Palestine in all the Middle East it's happening on Sunday at 2 p.m. at parliament house and I will say you know I I'm conflicted about the whole thing.

I didn't think I'd come down and have a Palestine conversation, but I'm so proud. Young people believing in something always fills me with hope. That's good. I'm glad to hear it. And how do you know, Darcy? Darcy has been part of the students for Palestine. Darcy's not a student.

He was, I believe. Was Darcy a student? He's hidden that from us. I don't know. I can't tell you everything about him. Oh, we've never, this is, Darcy's kept this a secret. Darcy is. infiltrating my operation with his pro-Palestine views.

I'm fascinated. How did you come to join students for Palestine? Well, I just suppose a genocide that's happened. Yeah, I've supported Palestine for a long time. Do we oppose all genocide? Yes. Really? Yes.

Because in Turkey, when some people put on death marches, I don't know if you've had a lot to do with... Have you seen the Kardashian family? I know the Kardashians, yeah. They're part of that. What are they called? What are they? Okay, I'm going to go.

Armenian. No, I'm joking. I'm being silly. No, seriously, I'm so excited that you know Darcy. Yeah, I am. That's really huge. If any of you would like to, I'm happy with you promoting whatever. I've taken great.

I'm on a US visa. So I don't, I'm not in the US at the moment. But you know, if you have a US visa and you criticize the state of Israel, they can terminate your visa. That's horrible. It's not ideal. So my official position is I don't take a stuff. Just purely, you know, I have no solidarity.

I'm a very selfish person. But I'm happy to have you say whatever you'd like to people. I don't have any intention to do a gotcha mom. Okay, great. Well, free Palestine. From the river to the sea. Is there a pro-Israel student group? You'd have to go looking.

I don't know. They're not publicly... Not here to my knowledge, but yeah. And where's the pushback? Does the university, like, does the university, like, fuck heavy with you guys? They're for you? against you? Like, what's the vibe in the, what's the vibe? Are people like supportive? Do you ever get,

is there ever a guy with like ropes in his pockets and big curly hair who comes and shakes a finger? I better go. No, no, I understand. I understand. I understand. God bless you. God keep you. I didn't know, Darcy had a political side. You know, they only knew me because of Darcy. Isn't that wonderful? Darcy's a man about town. We've never really gone into hard-hitting political questions with Darcy. Next time we see him, we simply must. You see, I think he didn't want to get caught out. He didn't want to say the wrong thing that man. I thought he was a nice young man. I think it was a mistake for me to start talking about the Armenian genocide being a plus. But I hope everyone can tell that I was doing that in good humor. I mean, I was acknowledging

that it was a genocide, and that's more than the Turkish government will do. Well, how long's that? Gosh, is that it? I was only five minutes. Mercy me, we need more people to talk to. It's pretty hard to do street talk when people don't want to talk to. How did Charlie Kirk do it? How did Charlie Kirk do it?

I mean, I guess I don't have any signage. I guess if you're going to be at the university and argue with people, you need that sort of set up that they've got over there. Well, you're really ready to, like, throw down and get nasty with it. abortion hey you know that sort of thing I could have on a sign and then people would come over and they'd want to talk about abortion or something

but I don't really I'm not interested in doing those big I mean obviously I have a strong view on abortion um does anybody want to talk about you know I just I wouldn't know the right way to go about it but it doesn't feel very natural when they're going I think people should be allowed

to chainsaw their wives talk to me about it, you know? Because they've got a sign saying changed my mind, but really they want to change other people's minds. I guess we've come here at the end of the... I didn't know this was on. This was just the most happening thing on campus.

I mean, I could... Hello. You a guitar player? Yes. Would you like to play... Are you a musician? To an extent. I don't want to hold you up.

You might be going somewhere. where you might have busy but it's quite a popular show would you like to play music for people I don't think I would be able to right now couldn't like open the guitar up and like but I'll hold the microphone up to it it would be meaningful for some I don't know they'll love it if you want I'd love to is that would that be all right you have as much time as you need to set up and I'll hold the mic up to it I mean we're just at the university are you I'm about to go so we're trying to bank some episodes. This seems, they seem passionate young people

and one of them came and spoke. He doesn't really want to talk to me. But if you want to play guitar, what was your name? Oh, yo, you do a podcast. I do a podcast. It's called the James Donald, Forbes, McCann, Catamaran plan. Oh, no, I have, no, I have nothing, uh, I just thought

it would be nice if they wanted to come and chat about it. They actually know a guy called Darcy. You know Darcy? You want to come and tell me an anecdote about Darcy? I know so little about Darcy. Would you play for us? What was your name? Arth, my name's Arth. Your name was Arth.

Please, please, get it out. Play a little something. I'll play a little song, go to a few minutes. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. And no one of the, no one will speak about Darcy or Palestine. All right, let's do it. Oh, beautiful. How would I, do you sing or just, or play?

Well, I'm going to sing. Okay, hold on. Will you? There's a house in New Orleans. They call. the rising sun and it's been the ruin of many a poor boy and God I know I'm one I'll give you a verse there all right that's great whoo give a round of applause give a round give on everyone hath half I'm James good to meet you James nice to meet you too I think

we can get away with that I think you're allowed to play a cover It's on YouTube, yeah, yeah. James Donald, Forbes, McCann, Catamaran plan. Hey, have a beautiful day. Thank you for that. That was really something. No, do what you've got to do. Is there anything you'd like to shout out, or any strong opinions?

You got any strong opinions about anything? I'm looking for people with strong opinions. Your own opinions are a mystery to you, you said. I understand what you mean. It's so hard to have a simplicity, and to know oneself is really, I mean, to know what's in the world, to know one's self. These are, I think, to me, unattainable, but I'm always impressed when other people,

you know, it would be easy to go, oh, these simple-minded people, they think it's an easy thing to do, they think they know the right. I'm always really impressed when people can winnow down reality into something that they can action, you know? It's true.

It is true. It's hard to know what is worth action. You've got to come on. Come on, get back on the pot. Say that. Just say that to the people. It's hard to know what is worth actioning. You're a star.

Thank you very much, James. God bless you. You two have a very much. Very nice day. You're trying to go. You're trying to get out of here. You got a prank? Enjoy.

Good luck. Break a leg. I don't really know how that works. Lovely people. Hello. Do you want to be on the podcast? I just talk to, I'm trying to buy a boat. You got any strong opinions?

Um, I mean, like, not really. I'm just very woke, I guess. Oh, cool. Yeah. It's good that someone's holding the torch for that. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't know. How old are you? Can I ask?

22. 22. So, like, peak woke I think of as being, like, culturally, maybe, like, before that last Trump election, I don't know, like, four years ago? You feel like the world is, like, like, on Pride Day, Target used to be like, check out the flags. And now they're like, shh, flags up the, you know, like, corporate work is definitely on a wane. Definitely.

I feel like corporate work has definitely gotten work. worse recently. Like it used to be all like, can I swear on this? Absolutely. A lot of the, um, old kind of merch used to be real cunty and stuff like that. But like now it's just boring and discreet. And it's like, well, look, it's a cute little flag. You know what? And this is a constant tension within the, um, I guess the queer movement. I don't know what we want to call it. But there's, there's, there's, you know, people throughout the 70s, it's like, let's weird out. Let's go wild. These people, these people, of breeders, that's disgusting, and then moving into the gay marriage thing. It was

what, you know, two men living together, that's basically the same as a straight couple. So there's nothing weird to see here, just we want equality. But then, you know, it's different. People get high camp and low camp, a higher, wild and out and straight and narrow at different times. And you think we're entering into a straight and narrow time? I feel like, yeah, definitely. I feel like that there was a rise of like modern, like, conservatism, which kind of indicates the recession. and stuff like that. But it's like,

the rise of it is really concerning, especially with modern day politics. Go on. Well, there's so many, like, it's all like, oh, do you like, really... Sorry, trying to find my words. No, that's all right. I mean, it's interesting.

Australia had its right wing, like, Pauline's having a big moment right now. Right? But that happened way later than the rest. Everyone else had the reactionary right thing happened like 10 years ago. And I don't know what happened recently. I was away for a bit.

We're talking about Pauline. But why now? You thought because the economy's gone down the shit? I think the economy and just, I feel like Trump being in power really pushed a lot of it because he was such, he got into power pretty easily because he was a celebrity before he was a politician. Like he was like on, what is it, the...

Celebrity apprentice? Yeah, that... Do you ever watch it? No, I think I was too young. It's a hell. It's actually a great, the original apprentice was a great. You sit down, if you want. What was your name?

Gypsy. This is Gypsy. I didn't think you were allowed to say that anymore, but I love it. Yeah, unfortunately, it's my legal name. It's great. Do you move around? I won't, I won't go there. What are you studying?

Ecology. Science. And where is, and what year are you in? It's my first year, second semester. Wow. They're all packing up. Are you a part of this? Yes.

Do you know Darcy? I have no idea who Darcy is. All right. Dasi's a guy that they know and that I know. But I found that very weird. I'm still new to the group. I wish I had two microphones. Yeah, fair, fair. You should invest in that. He's going to compress this later. That's Sam, by the way. Say hi, Sam. Hi, Sam. Gypsy. It's a great name.

Look, I think the right is fragmenting at the moment. In Australia, it is fragmented and it's sort of coalescing around a new thing. But I don't know if you've seen that Trump and the Pope seem to fall out beefen at the moment. Yes, but I don't know if the Pope really. counts as riot these days. He's very kind of for a lot of, kind of just more togetherness and like don't be an ass. Well, the Catholic Church is

Catholic Church is in very distinct ways different to people don't know what to do with the Catholics politically. Yeah. Because economically, way to the, you know, if you're, a great document is, oh my goodness, I've got, Humane Vite is their document against

the pill and it goes, no contraceptives. Which I think we can all say is great. Like, not to have contraceptives. Contraceptives evil. Anyway, but to move on, the other part of it is they're going, well, for young families, there's almost no limit to how much money you should give them. Like, to the poor, to the needy, to people who are doing difficult things with their lives like having a family, to the poor, to the destitute, the state should help them.

The state should give them almost limitless aid. And so this is like, this is a weird blend then of like what progressives would say and what evangelical American, you know, Rides would say. is like, you know, maybe the writers would say no abortion, and people on the left would say lots of money for poor people, and the Catholics would say, well, both of those things, actually. And no one really knows what to do with them. So the Pope, in some circumstances, can look like a leftist.

And sometimes, you know, like if you get him on condom, I mean, don't ask him about condoms, you'll be very disappointed with him. I mean, I feel like it's really hard to put a specific political stance on a religion when it's like, yeah, well, a lot of, like, like, I agree. Politics is based on religion and stuff like that, but I think it's evolved beyond it, that it's to a point where it's like you can't really compare the two.

So, like, there's, like, left-end Catholics and right-end Catholics, and they all believe different things. And I know, like, the Catholic Church, the Pope is an overarching thing. But, like, it's just too hard to compare to specifically political alignments. I think, I mean, a good religion, a religion is supposed to take you to God, right? And to take you out of the mundane. Whereas politics is like the art of the possible and the tribe and the ideology. It's material.

So it's like limiting and it's what can get done. And I think religion, if done right, should make you a more strange, complicated, conflicted, nuanced person. A hundred percent. I mean, like, I, my personal religious stance is I'm pagan. So I'm actually not any branch of Christian or anything like that. We've got to talk about that. Yeah, 100%. Why are you?

Now, you can't be a second generation pagan. No, first generation. Yes. How did you get it? I mean, when you say pagan as well, I mean, boy, are they left pagans and right pagans. Holy dolly, I don't know if you've read about those right pagans in Scandinavia. Spooky folks. Yeah, I've seen bits and pieces.

I really got into it through the internet. A lot of research and stuff. It definitely... Pagan influences? Yes, lots of them. I definitely got a lot more into it. it jelled with me a lot more than Christianity. I used to be Christian.

I used to believe in a few different things. I still believe that there are multiple gods. I mean, I worship the Greek ones specifically. I wanted to ask which branch of... Yeah, so I... Is this a larp, or you think Zeus is a real dude? By the way, if it was a larp, that would also be fine and really interesting. Not a larp.

So I also work a bit with, like, spirituality and I do like spell jars and stuff, a bit of witchcraft and stuff. Um, yeah, if, if, look, if it... Hold on, I got, I got to know about this, but you, I mean, you read the classics. You read, like, you know, the Homer and, uh, you, like, Apollo demands sacrifice so that plague will end. So... I don't know if this is offensive.

I don't want to have an offensive line of questioning, but I don't, I don't think I've actually met a self-professed pagan before. No, that's fair. So paganism is really self-driven. Um, like, obviously there's, like, specific things you should offer to specific gods and stuff. and I definitely try to avoid the sacrifice side of things, 100%. You're not cool to sacrifice? No, I don't think sacrifice is a necessary part of it.

I mean, like, why not have a little fun every night? Apollo demands! Apollo demands blood! He's very clear about demanding sacrifice, though. They want the burnt offering. How do you, let me like, but the many God, I mean, that's the ultimate question. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to slam the table. It was potentially excessive. That was a little dramatic.

like Plato writes about problems with the many-godded view of the world, even though he's within a pagan society. I forget where it is. It might be in the Republic, might be in the apology. We might be getting in trouble. Hello, brother. Oh, no, he was just staring off into the distance.

I forget that people do that university. He's quite official. You? Hey. Why do you No, get off that man. Blur that man. He doesn't want to be a part of it.

That's all good, mate. Weird stuff going on there. Do you go on? Sam, you make him uncomfortable. I, what is the appeal of that? Because I've always thought of that God being one, I've never especially found troubling.

But I know that this is not intuitive, that if we go back thousands of years, almost all, you know, native people, almost, just about everybody, except for briefly the Egyptians and the Achanaten and the Jews were pagan, and monotheism was really

rare. So, but I don't, I feel so disconnected from that world that I can't, you know, I am disposed if not, if I was not a Catholic, I think I'd be an atheist. I'd go, well, there's fucking nothing, you know, but you still believe in

a spiritual. Yeah, so it's a lot of it's like Greek stuff but also just the nature of things and stuff like that. Like there's definitely some sort of spirituality with nature and stuff like that. You feel it? Yeah, 100%. It was just in a tree. I loved it. Exactly.

I grew up in the countryside alongside a river and everything and it always felt really powerful and like stuff like that. And like with the polyethism and everything like that, I look at it like, like, sure, one guy could have created everything. But have you seen the state of the world and compare it to a group project? Not everything quite fits together. It's all a bit disconnected and it's a bit of chaos.

I see, you know, I hadn't thought about it in that way that it does appear to be chaotic. I mean, I think the way that the Jews and the Christians, I guess the Muslims get around that to some extent, is having a devil, an original sin. and forces that are in, that we're in a, there is a war on, you know. But you see it as competing goods or competing power centers rather than like a light and darkness, manichaean type.

Like what, how do you, I want to get back to this thing of saying the country though, because there is something wrong with the city in a way that we all know that like the nature is great, you know. I don't necessarily want to, I don't want to worship nature because nature can also be disgusting and cruel. I mean like second life though. Like it's... You won't give sacrifices.

I want to guess most pagans give sacrifices. Because I think that also... This is that thing of like if you're in nature, if you're worshipping nature, nature demands violence. Well, it's not like specifically, I don't give like sacrifice sacrifices. But I have like altars where I put things on and stuff like that that I don't... You put on the altars? All good.

No, it's all good. I have no. counterpoints to paganism? I'm interested. We may never see Gypsy again. I don't know if Gypsy is being removed. Do not turn the camera on them. Do not turn the camera on them. I'm trying to think if I've ever actually met a pagan before. Let me think about that. Maybe play one of my songs here. Well, I think. Thank you for coming back. I didn't know if that person was coming to take you away. I didn't know if I was hurting the pro-Palestine movement. But I'm, I've got to. because I think impulsively I'm against paganism.

Impulsively. Impulsively is maybe not the term. On a theological level, yes, but on a gut level, I associate paganism with a lot of ugliness. I think of human sacrifice, which I think is well historically documented. And I think also if I was starting up as a society, I'd have to bring that in, you know,

if I didn't have an outside force to keep it all together. I think of suspicion. um like the iliad and the odysses it's like full of you know that it's not actually a benign universe it's not a benign spiritual thing that loves you and wants to take it with you it has its own interests and if you get in its way it will crush you i think that's common to a lot of the pagan certainly like the greek pagan things is like these gods must be appeased and i think like a weird pivot that happens in in christianity is like um you know it goes from like you feeding the gods and sacrifice things to them

to like, God comes to you and says, eat me, here's my bread. Like, it's a direct flipping of this, needing to put things on altars for them to feed them. And it's like abundance comes out from that. And I just, on vibe, I mean, there would be ways, like, what's better and what's not, but I guess, like, I feel that the spiritual realm is benign and loving.

Yeah, well, the Greeks built didn't really, like they believed in the gods and stuff like that. But they were more stories, like how the Bible is stories to tell, like, to, like, kind of show things and stuff like that. The Greek gods were used to symbolize certain things, like the different stories and stuff like that. Often wondered this. How seriously did the Greeks take their pay? Like, did they actually believe in nothing, and this is a historical way we can understand things?

Or do they really believe that if you slit that goat's throat, the harvest will be strong? well no they didn't well it did do it like they did kill a lot of the good gods and things yeah i mean it's kind of like the superstition and stuff like that you know everything stems from people wanting to feel in control of everything even like christianity and stuff like that like praying and stuff like that stems from if you pray and like be thankful and stuff like that and follow the ten commandments then you're basically it's kind of like a sacrifice to God. This is how Protestants and evangelicals,

and I think it's one of the more damaging harms that they do to Christianity, is this thing of like, God will bless you, God will take care of you, God will, you know, you'll have all this stuff. You're like, having lots of children as a sign that actually you're in God's favor, having a lot of money as a sign you're in God's favor. Whereas I think the old, the Catholic tradition is, you know, you go in there and there's a, a God has been mangled and killed on our cross. And it's like, actually, if you suffer and bad things happen,

maybe that's the good sign. Do you know what I mean? And if things are going well for you, maybe you've actually sold out. Yeah. See, that feels like off to me, you know? The worship of suffering? Yeah, specifically like the worship of suffering.

Like the same way you felt like the sacrifice and stuff like that on paganism felt off to you, that feels off to me to the suffering. I think especially branches of paganism is kind of like branches of. Christianity and stuff like that. There's so many different ways to worship. And even some people who claim to be Christian do sacrifice and stuff like that.

Oh, look, Catholics took so much stuff from the pagans. Funny hats. Like, there's stuff in the art. There's so much. Oster, Easter. I don't know if I got, but like, certainly like, I mean, why is there a bunny? Why is their eggs? Why is their chocolate?

It's definitely something to do with, and it doesn't make as much sense in Australia. But when you're in the northern hemisphere and Easter's, happening and you're coming out of you know you're seeing flowers for the first time in like five months you're seeing leaves the first time in ages it is like this rebirth life you get it I mean the bunny is a specific um worship to a goddess I can't think of her name it's breathing it's get on it yeah it's like a specific if you want to worship this goddess it's bunnies it's eggs it's stuff like that it's spring um so Easter and especially Easter not being a specific date but being the first full moon the moon the first full moon of um

Is it of April or of spring? Well, it's, it's, I just know that the Greeks are tricky because they try and have theirs after so they can buy their eggs for cheap. Yeah, well, I mean, and even paganism is, there's different holidays. There's yule, there's the solstices, there's, there's, Yul, the Yuletide, yes, and then a lot of that is absorbed into the liturgical calendar, or it's, you know, there are things that echo other things, and there used to be so many more of them, candle mass, who has candle mass, who has St. Michael's Day anymore?

But they're on, they're on things like, it's like, it's like, halfway between the solstice and the, like, if you ever see it, it's crazy. Yeah. And I think we've, none of that makes sense in the southern hemisphere though. There is southern hemisphere solstices and stuff. I'll change to everything for that. It's, it's modern, obviously. Do the pagans down here, though, are you doing, is it like the flip side of, like,

we're not doing, we're not all doing the summer solstice at the same time, we'll do our summer solstice? Do you know what I mean? Like, the midsomer. Like, is there our midsomer, which is on a completely different calendar date to their midsomer? Yeah, so it's basically flipped, but it's, because it's based on more, not the current seasons we know, but more on, like, when certain things happen.

Go on. Kind of like the Indigenous Australian seasons. Yes. Like, oh, you start seeing these kinds of flowers or these animals become active, so it's this new season. It's kind of similar to that. Like, I think a lot of, back in the day, ages ago, solstices were. probably more commonly, they were usually

like a week long kind of celebration. You've got to. It's the middle of fucking winter. Everyone's depressed. And this doesn't make, I think this is sad that we have this in Australia specific. We have football to carry us through. Football is our winter solstice festival, I believe.

It's gloomy. There's nothing on. We've Christmas is in the middle of summer. But from about now to September, it's it's a bleak grey country and we've got nothing we've got nothing to lift the mood yeah I mean

I'm not a big footy person so I wasn't either but thank God I found football because genuinely I want to see rates of seasonal depression among people who follow Aussie rules football in Australia and people who don't because gosh you've got to have something to get you through those long winter

months something to look forward to at the end of it yeah I mean like there's nothing to do in winter here I've just moved to this city like where were you before i was in the riverland well like uh berry smaller town closer to miljura outside of the border their side of the border outside of the border that's we love that we love the river

it's in the wakery area great bakery yeah great bakery we should know my friend amos gillers from there he's um he used to go back every year but now he's in american he doesn't get to but he misses it so much and he would say like he would go back there And all these towns are starting to get like a target and a subway. And this broke his heart. But the people there are like, fuck off, can't we love having a Kmart. It's good.

You can buy a pair of shoes at night. Yeah, I mean like there's definitely, look, getting a Kmart or something in my town would definitely have upped my, like, what I would have been doing. Because especially in winter, summer, you swim in the river. Winter, you drink in your friend's backyard. That's about it. Everyone's alcoholics in small towns. My town had 200 people.

everyone's alcoholics. I think there was kids drinking at 13. And the driving's very dangerous because everyone's young and driving and unpoliced roads. Oh yeah, we don't have it. We, for months, almost a year actually, our town didn't have a police officer. They kept getting... That's so sick. What, they were...

Sexual? You don't have that. One guy did a few too many other people's wives. Yeah. One did drink driving. He was doing the drink driving. Yeah. Much respect.

Much respect. I mean, obviously not good. He shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, no. Yeah, lots of different things going on in that town. 200 people. Yeah, about 200. A lot of the viewers from America, and they'll know people in small towns. But for reference, how far away is the nearest town from there? Well, there's a lot of small towns, like my town. But the nearest like Woolworth and stuff is a half an hour drive, which is...

Half hour drive to the nearest like shop. Yeah, that's wakeery. And you would, and also like, I mean, Adelaide's the nearest city? Yeah, I would say, yeah, the nearest city. How far is that, it's like four or five hour drive? Way less than that. Really? To the Riverland?

Yeah, two, three hour drive. No way. On my way home, with multiple stops, I take a bus and it takes about three hours. Still living out there? No, I go home. I go home to visit the fam. And there's a bus? Yeah, there's a bus.

That is nice. It goes to a different town, but it's like a hour drive. Then they can come pick you up from there. Yeah. That's, this is your first time ever living in the city? Yeah, first time out of home. You came just to study at the university? Yes.

How long have you been here for just this year? I moved here in May. Oh, like last May. So one year coming up. How are you biggest, are you in the city city or are any of the burbs? In the city, city. Whoa. Yeah, student accommodation.

Like, yeah. But it's nice to be able to just. I've never met a white person in student accommodation before. I'm not saying any judgment, but it is... I'm neither happy nor disappointed to hear it, but I only say... I know about three other Australians and two of them are from other states. This was a big thing when I was here because it had just started in a big way was the foreign student.

And they started knocking down really lovely things in the town and like venues that everybody liked, like where bands would play. And they'd knock up these student accommodation flats. And it was like, man, it was terrifying. Well, you didn't know when it would stop, and it hasn't stopped. But are you high up at least? You're like, this is so great. I've never met anyone in student accommodation.

I'm like third floor. It's not that high. Okay. I'd be scared because I did an arts degree. So if I was staying up high, I would have been scared because it's a lot of difficult, you know, sad topics. And then you're the balconies there. Anyway, we won't go on a better.

But, oh, that's crazy. Country girl, gypsy. You come all the way to the city. All right. Best thing about the city? The club. nightclubs Yeah, I like the clubs

I also like just being able to walk somewhere and buy food Instead of And things are open past 8 o'clock And how did a day? Wow I'm still worse here than anywhere Not on a Saturday I mean I'm from a small town where everything was closed by a 738

So I can order I can order Uber Eats here Food being very different Oh yeah 100% So many other options here You have a Chinese restaurant No we had a little food van that was A very very van. Yeah, we had a little van that was in wakeery, so half an hour away every other week.

It's still, it's still there. I don't want to bring it back necessarily always the paganism, but did you come here and become a pagan? Or did you become a pagan and then come to the city? I've been a pagan for years. For years you were a pagan. You finished high school three, four years ago. Is that a gap year? So I graduated 2021. I was doing a diploma for two years. The company I was working with went bankrupt, so I didn't get that. And then I think I took a year to work, and then I moved up here. Now you're like full-blown science.

Yeah, full-blown science. Second semester. It's hard. And ecology is like rocks and stuff? Nature. Yeah, so geology is rocks, but ecology is... Excuse me. Ecology is how everything kind of, like,

everything interacts. All of nature interacts. It's how animals interact with each other, plants interact with each other. It's the whole system. Impossible not to see the paganism as a dimension. of that? Yeah, I mean, I guess so. Do you find, I mean, like, I guess everyone has a healthy respect for nature in the

ecology department? Yes, I don't know many other people majoring in ecology specifically, but there's a lot of respect towards just nature in general in science degrees. No one's like studying it so they can better undermine it, take it down from the inside. No, I don't think so. I think if you were trying to do that, you'd have a lot of other kind of problems going on. Your life, personally? I think personally, yeah. I mean, like, if you're trying to take down the ecosystem.

People out there are, Gypsy. It's a terrible thing. I think we're not in the light. Wait, he moved over there. But also Palestine. No? Oh, she said, don't talk about it. Hey, it's fine.

It's fine. Sam, cut that bit. Is she a spokesperson for them? Probably. No, she could talk to them. We'll cut all that out. No, I know, I know. We could end the war right now.

That's fine. He looks very beautiful in that speckled white. Look, I don't. Something is under my skin about the paganism, Gypsy. And I don't know what it is. I think it's that. A lot of the light put on paganism is that it's bad because of kind of colonization and stuff like that overtook her

and was like, guess what? Evil pagans eat babies. It's like they don't. I reckon some of them were eating babies But that's not my main complaint I would say that the baby eating Would be a secondary complaint for me If indeed it happened

The first complaint if baby eating's the second complaint I think it's like It seems Too simple to me The worship of I'll be calling it worship of nature That there is a The worship of nature seems to me like

It feels limited It feels like there should be something over and above that, something like bigger and more powerful and more interesting than we can imagine. That's what I want there to be, rather than like, you know, the essence of, I want this to be this to be a creation rather than the top level thing. I mean, there's that belief already there. I mean, with paganism, specifically the Greek side of things, there is a, like, oh, hell and heaven. It's not heaven. It's the underworld. with...

Underworld and an overworld. There's Underworld here and then Olympus where the gods live is the kind of beliefs. Like Athena sort of... You know, she's like becoming visible and invisible. And there's a sense that she exists on a plane that's not exactly our plane.

Like, you know, they're not just like big, strong men and women. There is a divine element to the gods. So there... It is completely divine. They have a bed. Zuz is in his bed I mean like Heaven has gates

There's human aspects we put on these divine things To understand them better Yeah you're right I don't know why a gate I find less offensive than a bed It's something about But like Zeus is always raping See it's like like His dad hates him

His dad ate him I mean it's like His dad his dad yeah his dad ate him But he came out He came back swinging but his dad was eaten other people. Actually, he was never eaten. Pretend?

Sibling. Yeah, his mom replaced him with a rock, swaddled in a cloth, and then was like, here you go, this is your son, he ate him, and then Reus Zeus elsewhere. I love that painting by Goya. Yeah. But like it's, the point of the Greek gods is that they represent certain things. So in the story of Hades-Zar,

and Persephone, to Persephone, which a lot of people are familiar with. It's about a young girl taken from her mother into the underworld and marrying the king of hell, the underworld Hades. And there's multiple aspects of this story. And a lot of it focuses on both Demeter, her mother's grief, and in the way that the death and the underworld, death can just snatch things away. And Persephone being,

she was kind of the goddess of a lot of natuery stuff and innocence of stuff like that. To have the king of like death, the death domain snatched away, it was kind of more symbolic. It's the Greek gods... That's maybe my question, because you're saying then... Because I think there's finding it all really interesting and getting a lot out of it.

which I think a lot of people do. And then there's going, I am a pagan. I'm signed up to this. This is like, this dictates my life. This is who I am. This is my identity. And that seems like a jump. Like, I think, I don't know if the Greeks didn't believe it.

Because it's so hard. You've got to build a whole, you know, you've got to go and talk to a mystic. She's going to, there's all this smoke in the room. You got to do what she said. They believed it. I believe it in like aspects. I think it's difficult to not. I'm always a very logical person, but it's such a hard thing to know about the divine that I think it's easier to be like, well, I feel a vibe, so I'm just going to go with that.

You know? Yeah. It feels like something is there, like kind of that situation. So it's like, yeah. I think one can search. One goes on a journey. You starve yourself for a while. You go for a big walk.

You think and you pray and you hope and you dream and you argue with every. everybody and hopefully you get closer to something that's going to help give life a structure and a purpose. Because if you don't have that, really if you don't have the structure and the purpose, you don't have any narrative, which I think was like very hip for a long time. You know, like the new atheism and all that. I see none of that now doing well. Like I think that it, I don't know if you're around for that. You've come later. Yeah, I've come a bit later, yeah.

I mean, like, I know about... 2008, 2009, very hip. Yeah, I was about four or five then, so. I didn't seek him. Chris Hitchens wasn't... I mean, like, I think a mom and dad put out over a religion on the census down as Jedi,

so like, you know, there was... Is this sort of pagan-y? I mean, I think it was more... Fuck you. I think the Jedi was just a term for agnostic where people didn't want to actually put a label on it. And then some of them tried to get money, I think. They're going like, no, it's a real thing.

And we're the Jedi. And we should get tax exempt states. But there's something, I find that interesting that maybe it's not people being more likely. Maybe it's just you, someone I've met at the university. But I do think it would be more likely that people would have like sort of a vague pagan spirituality over a hardcore empiricist, nothing who are young today. I think the thing about paganism is that paganism isn't a specific religion. Paganism is the umbrella term for anything that isn't under the Christianity or like God banner.

So Hinduism, paganism? No. Actually, I'm not sure because I know. It's always felt to me like they were pagan. I think in the Bible at some point, paganism is worshipping any other god over the one true god or something like that. Yes. Yeah.

So that's kind of the umbrella term that... I wouldn't call a Muslim a pagan because he'd be very upset. I mean, do they not... Polytheism they hate. They get so nasty about it. Do they do Muslims worship one true God in a kind of aspect? I think we think that they do. I think we think it's the same God.

Yeah. See, that's kind of... We go, your God is my God in different ways, separated brethren. So I think that's why it doesn't quite fit under the umbrella of paganism. But paganism isn't necessarily polyethism either. I think Satanism falls under paganism. Absolutely. Which, because Satanism...

So there's two different Satan kind of religions that are major in current society. and it's the Church of Satan and the Temple of Satan. The Temple of Satan is... They've had a beef, they've full out beefing? Oh, well, the Church of Satan is a lot more kind of right-leaning and stuff, whereas, and actually worships the devil. The Temple of Satanism is more of a self-worship. It's actually a...

Milton and pride and like... It's not even like, it's just look after yourself, be nice to others. Like, you wouldn't associate... That's true, evil. But if you actually have a look, they've got a whole website and everything. And they do a lot of, the Temple of Satan, do a lot of activism work. Good community outreach? I mean like, yeah, but also they used to do this thing where if you were a member of the church,

I think, I don't remember what it was. But there was some sort of like protection or something because you're a member of the church or something that certain. They look after you? Like certain things where we. within your right religiously that you had to be allowed to do it. I think it was around the time of abortion and stuff like that. They're pro-an-an-a-prosion. It'd be very strange to find the Satanists who are anti-prilife Satanists.

They out there? I don't know much about the Church of Satan, but if you want to look into that, it could be. The Church of Satan draws the line at 22 weeks. If there is a heartbeat, that heartbeats for Satan. So it's everything. You just, you reject the Christian God. I don't reject him. Interesting.

I believe he's there. I just don't. He's one among a few. I think most, I think there's something going on up there. And I don't know if it's all of them are real or they're all different. Like, they've like, they're all the same kind of God or gods that people have taken different aspects from, but I reckon everyone's beliefs stem from some sort of truth.

So I personally just don't align myself with the kind of, it's more the community at the moment, but even I don't align myself with the way Christianity works and stuff like that, and I just prefer the way, like, paganism works personally. Wow, but the pagans don't have a big institution at the moment. No, and that's... If there's a pagan sex abuse crisis, it's easy to go, well, that's just those pegan. It's not all the paganism. See, the thing about paganism, it's like, it's, again, the umbrella term,

but it's also very, very personal to yourself, which means it's... Institutionalising religion is such an interesting thing to do. Yeah. Because religion is meant to be such a personal thing. To institutionalise something like that is, I think, yeah, very interesting. It's odd because the older I get, I mean, I was a very free-thinking young person. I was really all about it. I loved free-thinkery.

And the older I get, the more I think all my thoughts are horrible, base, and vile. And I need big institutions to help me. Do you know what I mean? I trust myself and my motives far less the older I get. And the more people depend on me, the more I find out how nice money is. I don't know if you've been on a private jet, but they're really fucking great. You know, I personally have not been on a private jet. They're so great.

they're so great and I think wealth and power and I think if I could just shake off all these fucking people trying to hold me back I could have a really good time you know what I'm saying that's how I so it's good that I have the institution to just check me bring me back to ground level where I know that that's better for me I mean at some point institution yeah it's good to have guidelines I'm not a big fan of authority I think institutions telling me what to do makes me want to do the opposite.

Yes. Yes. But I think the fundamental question then is, and by the way, I just check to see if at some point, I've got to get my wife a lift. But is authority bad in the abstract? Or is bad authority bad? Because people have authority and they suck. And you go, I might have to kill you. You know, that's the vibe I have.

I don't know how many churches I went to as a young man where I went, I want to burn this mother down. You know, I'm going to set fire to stuff. but then when I find people who have authority and I think sort of deserve it, it can be very beautiful. Like when there's a lecturer who's really smart, you go, gee, I'm glad she's talking. You know, instead of an idiot, I want the smart person to be talking to me. I think there's a difference between like specifically authority and deserving to be there.

Like there is, but there isn't. I think there can be people who force themselves into a place of authority and like get their way there. And then there's people who earn it. And I think the people who earn it and use their authority to kind of serve the people that help, like they're kind of residing over. It's rare. It's rare. But I think that's a good way to do it.

I think bad authority is bad, but good authority can be good. Absolutely. I mean, if you don't, yes, and beautiful, I would say. The authority can be beautiful. But having a system that finds, you know, rewards the good people, allows the good thing to flourish. It's rare, but really that's the only point in having a system, I think, is for it to make the good flourish, to reward virtue and to punish advice, to lift up greatness and to quash mediocrity. Excuse me. Ice cream before, and I'm meant to be coming off of lactose.

Ah, yes, no, I had an ice coffee this morning before a big presentation, and it was... How did it go? How did it go? Presentation went well. I had a tummy ache, because I'm lactose intolerant. It's about having guidelines. It's about having boundaries and things to hold you back. Yeah, yeah. Important. Gypsy. I have to go.

This has been great. Gypsy. Gypsy, enjoy. Gypsy, I'm going to pray for Gypsy. Pray on it. Pray for me. I'll pray for you. And I think fundamentally we agree about most things here.

I've had a good time. I've had a good time. I've had a good time. I enjoy having conversations. I just like talking. And being on camera. James Donald Fawkes-Bacon, Catamaran plan. Darcy is a big Palestine guy.

apparently I'm interested but I didn't know that he's young everyone you have a young person I don't know Tarsi are there any right way are there any right wing

anti-Semites trying to join up with the pro-Palestine thing all right go go I'm just wondering I just wonder that would be interesting that would be like a good sitcom all right gypsy

have a good one thank you James Donald Forbes McGahn Catamaran plan Catamaran Hall University might be a goer didn't that tie nicely with the pagan thing and I was in a tree before

for?