The James Donald Forbes McCann Catamaran Plan - S2 Ep19: Eve's Dad, Milton J. Ellenbogen in Conversation

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

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This one must have been an issue. You already said? Yeah. I must have been an issue. We've started now. Okay. I'll do an indrily. I am, I have, I need to look good for the camera.

We had a long train ride to get here where this could have happened. That's true about I was talking. Well, I'm glad you finally made it because, you know, sometimes you get on a train. You fall asleep and get lost. I thought you're going to make a Jewish joke. I was going to a Jewish joke. Wow, you're rather me. I'll tell you, I give you a Jewish

joke. I wouldn't believe. Dad is prone to a Yiddish accent. That's what he's doing. Well, that was a time. There was a time. I mean, now it's disappeared. The young people, they don't remember. Yes. And, um... Where's my water? Where's my water?

Somebody stole my water? We almost got to see Fiddler on the roof. That's true. Very strange. Well, that's my father's fault. Really? I've never seen Filder on the roof. Oh my God. But that's your fault. No offense.

How? How's so? You're going to blame me. You're a big girl. How dare you? I had a whole childhood. You're an adult. I'm missing out on the Jewish canon. I don't know if it's written by Jewish people, is it?

Dad? Fiddler on the roof? Oh, yes. Okay. Oh, yes. Could have just been by a fan. It's certainly... What?

It's based on the tales of Shalom al-a-le-le-le-ahm. Shalom? Yeah. Who's that? Malikam Salam. Fancyful, right. and it's part of the idiom and it's really caught on so everybody uses it whether they realize it or not there's so many things like you know how's business don't ask don't ask but anyway you never ask me

how's business but how is business well don't ask it depends on the business you know there's a Seinfeld joke give you the business yeah monkey business yeah okay all right Gentiles meet in the street and one says to the other, how's business and the other Gentiles says, good. Did you hear that? Sorry. What? He said, two Gentiles meet in the street.

And one Gentiles says to the other, how's business? And then he says, good. The Gentiles. The Gentiles. They're Goyim. But he's also never seen Yentel. I've never seen Yentel. Which I, Yentel is one of my favorite.

It's a truly insane, if we're going to go through all the Jewish musicals, which there are four. Is it a musical? Yentel is a musical. Dad, I'm beginning to feel a bit resentful here that you never... Well, I got some stories about Eve. You're feeling resentful. She was born resentful.

I'm like, Dad, we should have gone over... We're listening to your father. We should have gone over rules. Okay, go ahead. So when did you insist that Eve move to Korea? Well, the only thing... thing I can recall there is, you know, I was in Korea during the war. Okay. And so

the Korean War. Korean War. I know. Okay, but couldn't have one. Okay. She knew that. I don't know how she picked Korea. I think she went with the wind at the time. So, and the whole thing baffled me that she was into comedy. Because I was figuring, you know, she'd get a good education, you know, maybe she'd go with one of these hoity-to-to-y schools, you know, really first class.

But she got a degree and after that, nothing pleased her except comedy. It's odd. It is odd. Yeah, a similar thing happened to me, a lot of people. It's a curse. You were going to law school, right? I was at law school. Oh, really?

Yeah. But I knew I would get in comedy at some point. But, I mean, what year were you in Korea? When were you fighting and deployed in Korea? I was in 1952 or 53. Okay. The treaty was signed in 53. Were you part then of the

I'm going to get this right But is MacArthur had a surge That he wasn't meant to have Am I getting this right? Where he went further than the parallel And he said we can keep going Yeah McCarthur disobeyed The High Command as what it was

That must have been the last time There was That happened in an American army Well you know They gave him a tremendous reception here in New York Yeah And I was in the crowd I mean

And he came by in a car and waved to everybody And the throngs of people, they love MacArthur Maybe it was rebelliousness, maybe it's just because we knew he was an experienced soldier, you know? And I think he said, old soldiers never die. They just fade away. I think that's true. Patton was hit by a car. Oh, really?

Am I getting that right? I don't know. Patton had a very abrupt death. Really? Well, but then maybe But not at war. No. Matter of fact, in the movie, it shows that he was in a car at the end.

He was speeding. Am I getting that right? Yeah, I think you're right. Which movie did? Patton. That's right. It's called Patton. It was written by Francis Ford Coppola, and then they

butchered it. Right. But still. But there must have been, there must have been a vibe for some of the, like, so Eisenhower gets to become president after the war, but these men must have been so, They bloomed so large in the imagination. I mean, I didn't realize until we went to, I don't know if you ever came with us to the War,

the Museum of the War and the Pacific. Where was that? It's in Fredericksburg, just outside of Austin, in the German hill country. No. But they have all the presidents afterwards. They, you know, and they go, up until Reagan,

up until George Bush Sr., they're all involved in World War II. That World War II is like the defining, you know, not until, yeah, so Bill Clinton is the first. first president who did not serve in the Second World War. Oh, that's what you mean. Okay. Yeah. Right. But just how how odd that must have mean to have these people.

And the military is not as groovy now. No one, you know, there was a brief, Petraeus people thought could lead. But it's all different. It is. It is. But you know, you asked me before about Korea and Eve. She has a mind of her own. I'm going to go back here with a couple of stories about Eve. Okay. We can set there. Okay. When my wife Linda passed away,

it was very sad. She was young and he was perhaps hurt by it tremendously. And she was very jealous of the women that I was dating. Oh, dad. That's a good story. She said,

where are you going tonight? And I said, we're going to go to, probably go to a bar and really were going to shack up. Oh, Dad. I like this story. Eve might have to leave the room for the podcast. We're having a great time. So anyway, she said to me, she said, call me.

I said, all right, I'll call you. So anyway, I was with Sandra and I said, my wife now. My wife. I said, I got to call my daughter. I got to call my daughter. So I called Eve and she said, I want you to come home immediately. And I said, Eve, I can.

I'm here and a date. And you've got Sandra there. My babysitter's name was Sandra. Yeah. My dad has. a thing for women in his life. And she said to me, you either come home or I'm going to

sue you. I said, what? Oh, seven. She's going to take you to court. Or eight, yes. Yeah, right? Seven or eight years old. Yes. I meant it, and I still might. I'm sure we could have very similar. You have similar stories.

Okay, but here's no leniency with this one. A real, give an inch. Take every pound of flesh. So when my wife, died and she lingered for almost two years it was terrible you needed to have therapy I could see that immediately but it wasn't so easy I don't know how many therapists we went to Eve didn't like for this and like that didn't like it looks I mean it was I've gone crazy yeah I found therapists for Eve finally I found someone but what happened is I

didn't have therapy for all this period and because I was going to all these therapists I said you know maybe I could use some therapy So I inquired some friends and I recommended this guy who was previously a rabbi and now he was a therapist. So I went to see him and he said, I know about your history. He says, I understand what's going on. He says, but tell me, how are you coping? What do you do to cope? And I said, well, I try in different ways to interest myself in things.

But the main thing is that there's a kind of sadness I really can't quite get over. But I dream. He said, oh, you dream, and now he got interested. Tell me about your dreams. I said, well, I'll tell you, you know, one dream, maybe it recurs a few times. James, you love this. I was a window washer at the Empire State Building, and it was up on the 30th floor. And I was washing the window, but I wasn't really washing the window.

I was gyrating because there was a nice gal opposite me. We were strapped together on 30th floor, the Empire's state building and I was having one grand old time he said well really that's that's really very very strange tell me what else I had him going now you know the rabbi you know part of them so what else I said well I had a tremendous ejaculation he said what I said yeah I said I looked down and there were actually people on the street were drowning in my sperm I could see their feet kicking up in the air they were drowning my sperm and I would tell you

he had the most disgusting look on his face. He said, well, all right, look, next time, you know, well, I only had one more time, but he didn't want to mess with me after that. But because it was a rabbi, I was titillated by how far I could go. Yeah. Well, now I knew how far I could go. This is, I think, a fear of certain people with therapy is that you start performing for the therapy. They're really meant to be there to help you.

Right. And there's a sickness that a certain kind of person has with. suddenly it all becomes, can I win the sympathy of the therapist? Can I make the therapist disgusted? Could I get to the point where the therapist doesn't want to see me anymore? That would make me feel very powerful. Right. You relate to this.

Oh, I 100% relate to that. They sent me to therapists when I was a kid. Yeah. And anyway, I don't go to them anymore. That story I had as a joke about you. Yeah? Oh, no kidding. Yeah, because, you know, so the joke was basically like my dad being like, that you

You confide too much in me and that you're like, I had this dream because also you used to talk about... I had no choice. I was just there. I know. It's called a child.

And as I said... Not all children are like that either. So I said that... Because you also mentioned in the past that it was over Brooklyn. You were flying over Brooklyn and that you saw people drowning in your sperm. No, now I understand it.

Right. And so I said... I would never make the people in the financial district. Right. Right. Just the Brooklyn. But in Brooklyn,

let them drown. So I think you said I had this dream I was flying over Brooklyn And I was ejaculating And as I looked down All these people are drowning in my sperm And then I said to my dad

Dad I'm nine Get a therapist But you know Because in the joke I don't say that I was a child When you were telling this to me But you did tell me when I was a child I think I would have been 10, 12

The first time I heard that story I'd like to have that dream I've been on the right for a series She gave me so much trouble Oh, my God. Is this what this is about that? Let, Mill's speak. Because, you know, she liked my stories. I told her story every night before going to bed.

It's true. And she kept asking me about, you know, I told her about this former Brown. No, Mr. Squire. A squire. See, she remembers. Who are these people? Figments. My dad is a fictional story.

I was making these up. Yeah. But what I did know is that she remembers what I was saying. Two daughters. Next week she asked me, what have happened to Squire? I said, who? She said, you know, the fellow who was taking the land away from Farmer Brown? I said, oh, my God.

So she listened to all my story. On the other hand, Michael, my son, he said, tell me about the atomic bomb. He said, I want to know all about the atomic bomb. So between the two of them, between the atomic bomb and former. Is this the one who grew up to be the chess player? Yes. Yes. He's a chess teacher now.

Yeah. Which at some point, I have to. He's a master. He's a master. Yeah. I'm very bad. I'm an enthusiast. Oh, it's too bad.

You guys could play a game. I bet you my dad would beat you. I bet you would. We can do it. I'm happy to do it. We'll do it at the end. I'm going to wear you out. We'll see that or go for a drive.

Up to you. But now you were going to become, am I correct in that you were thinking of becoming a rabbi? When you were very young? When you were. Before your dad died. My father was from Budapest. And so he made me go to synagogue regularly.

He was very religious. So 34 did you say you were born? 34? 35. 35. So when did they come out from Budapest? Well, my father, my father died when I was 12 years old. But when did he come from Budapest?

When did he leave Budapest? Oh, he left as a young man. He left the 20s? I looked it up. No, before that. Yeah. I looked it up. I think it was in late 1800s because I looked up the Ellis Island records.

I know it was late. I think it was 1890. He came out with his brother. Interesting story about that Because they had a walk all the way From a little town In a Buddhist press to Bremerhaven, Germany Yeah

To get a ship. They walked, they walked. So anyway, stopped at this farmhouse. People were tougher then. Yeah, people were tougher then, yeah. They were and they knocked on a door And the lady looked at she said, come around the back. So they went around the back And the lady made them two sandwiches.

She covered everything up nicely, put her in a bag. They were delighted, so they found a shady tree. they sat down to eat their sandwiches. And my father looked and he took one bite and he said, ham. He says, Trafer. And he threw it on the ground. And his brother said something like, Schmach, what's starving? What are you doing?

So the brother grabbed the sandwich and he ate them both. Now, that story is significant because when they got to this country, my father opened a dry goods business. And his brother went into the steel, iron and steel business and did a lot of fabrication for the two. Happency Bridge here in Westchester. It was a bridge that was very famous. So he was making it.

My father was a, you know, like, you know, he threw that ham sandwich on the ground. It was indicative of, you know, his business acumen, which was below zero. He was not a very good businessman. Oh, I'm told that he would take bribe. Oh, no, it's my mom's father. Also owned a meat as the small goods. He was a meat inspector. He was the inspector.

Yeah, Al Lettich. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of people working in the meat business. No, those dry goods. So he's my grandfather, my dad's side. I thought dry goods. I thought that was...

No, that was quilt pillows. Oh, I take it back. That's not a term that I was familiar with. But I thought the dry goods can also be like... I thought the dry goods can also be like rice and... No. No. Oh, I'm sorry.

But no, my grandfather, my mom's side, took bribes. He was a meat inspector who took bribes in deli meat. Let me say this about the business acumen, though. People still need pillows today. The steel built business. America. I mean, you'd want to be in pillows, wouldn't you? Well, the steel side of the family.

Bethlehem Steel doing nothing. There's like Ellen Bogan streets in the US. There's plastic surgeons. Those people made it. My dad's dad did not make it. He died poor, right? It's better to be poor. The meek inheriting the earth, you know.

But in that era, we're talking late 19th century. Yes. Manhattan is like 45% Jewish. at that time? This is my understanding. It was hugely Jewish, right, when you were a kid? Very heavy. But still really anti-Semitic. Crazy, isn't it?

Yeah. Right? Because you remember that. Tell them about the song. I don't know if you've hung out with the Jews in Brooklyn. They're very anti-Semitic as well. They're anti-Israel. Some of them are just anti-Semitic. That's true. Like me. Wait, tell them about the song that they used to sing, the kids. Me and my friend, Tony, we come from Italy. We drink our booze and kill all the Jews.

me and my friend Tony I was sitting on a stupid friend singing that song you were singing that song yeah my father came out and said get in the house get in the house I mean but like hot it's like a huge when did that that was the high water mark

maybe of Manhattan of Jews of Jewish people in Manhattan and then it just they all move to the suburbs people move to the suburbs and who comes in next who's the next big way after the Second World War is when the big immigration began yes

And they came, and they came, and they came. And from where? Well, most are from Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania. Ireland, right, Italy? Was that later? Well, that was later. Okay. But the Jewish wave, actually, it started even before the war, but after the war, because

of Europe and they were. Oh, you're talking about the Jews. He's saying, who replaced the Jews when the Jews left New York? Oh, I see. Well, the Irish was a big category. Bring a little closer here. The Irish is a big category. Yeah.

was after the war. You laughing at me that I... No, it just feels with great pride that we came here. Oh, because you were Irish. Yeah, we also, we were here before. St. Pats, when did that get thrown out? That must have been.

St. Patrick's Day? St. Patrick's Cathedral. Oh, I don't know. Do you remember? But there's also this wonderful, there's this pub that I went to. I don't know what it's called. I wish I knew what it was called.

Did we go there? It's the oldest Irish, it's the oldest continuing pub in America. No. I don't know. In Manhattan. In Manhattan. Yeah.

What's it called? It's not, Max Sworleys. Mixorlis, Mixorley's. Oh, I know Mixorley's. I know Mixorley. It was really the rudest people I've ever met in my life. It was the very big tourist attraction.

Well, you go there so that they can be rude to you. Yeah, yeah. You've got to buy two drinks at a time. Right. And the food is just disgrace. It's a white onion that's been chopped and a bad cracker and just cheese from a supermarket. But it was wonderful. It awoke an Irish consciousness within me.

Do they have peanuts on the floor or no? No. Do they used to, dad? Sawdust. Sawdust. Sawdust. But I keep seeing that and I don't understand it. Because dad used to work in Manhattan too.

Like you stayed for a long time. And then you guys used to go out after work to all the different pubs and stuff. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Sure. But, you know, it was interesting. The life of Manhattan was so easy. And you don't remember, I mean, we remember now, but during the period we didn't realize how good it was.

Yeah. You know, I mean, a loaf of bread was 11 cents, you know, things like that. But there were six kids in our family, and my mother and father, it's eight of us. So they were thinking because they got to be, became superintendents, because we got this sprawling railroad flat for all of the kids and all the beds in the right. And we got that. And our duty was to furnish the linen, to clean the building. Because you had other floors, you had the whole building.

We had the whole building, yeah, yeah. And that's where I met, you know, a whole bunch of, bunch of cross people. Midgets. There's a midget or two. Here we go. Dad loves a midget. I love the midgets.

We don't have many of the midgets in Australia. Well, I think that they don't really exist much anymore. Because probably because of genetic, whatever, testing. But you still have people who will have their midgets here. Right. In Australia, the midgets are just aborted. Right. Okay.

But here. Really? Oh, I mean, one of the first things I thought walking around America was, my goodness. there's a lot of midgets here. I don't know. But you go, I go, where are our midgets?

And then I realized, I know, we've been killing the midgets in the womb. That's where the midgets have all gone. Down syndrome people as well. I got to America. I said,

my goodness, there's a lot of down syndrome people here. Right. And it's not as though there's a higher rate of down syndrome. Right. It's just that there are evangelicals.

Right. Who have the kids. Yeah. They'll have the down syndrome. Well, dad's uncle was a midget. Uncle Irving. I did not know there was midgetary in the family.

He was a, say, Say again. He was a slum landlord midget? Say the whole thing. Cab driver. But hunchback, hunchback, he's hunchback, midget, slum lord cab driver. Jewish.

And racist. Let me tell you, this guy's good with the ladies. Yeah. I mean, and racist. Oh, a terrible racist. Yeah. Yeah, we were working on Broadway, you know, and so I said hello to somebody. And he said hello back.

And Irving said to me, he's Irish, isn't he? And Irving, his wife. Margaret, she was a... She said, what do we, how do we feel about the Irish? He says, they're all right, as long as they don't throw bottles off the window and piss on the holes. Yeah, we've got a problem with that.

We've continued that issue of his day. Don't forget to join the Zah, James Donald, Forbes, MacChan, Catamaran, Pran, Patonion. For beautiful extra content. Well, when did the homosexuals move into the village? That can't have always been like that. I can tell you, I was just,

kid I was just a kid I was a kid once you know yeah yeah and so we went down to the village it was an experience for me and there are a lot of gay people down there just checking the camera yeah who knew from gay you know sure right but some were sitting outside playing your guitar singing having a really good time and I figured these people they call them at that time they called queer they weren't called gay I said, but these people know how to have a good time. And so my uncle Irving said, I was telling this to my uncle Irving to hunchback slum ward cab driver. And he said, well, they're not Jewish, are they?

I said, Irving, look, there are Jews, they're good and they're bad. Look, on the east side, Delancey Street, they're Jewish and they're poor. And they hold their kids up to the window and some of them urinate right onto the ground. he said nah I can't be Jewish I said they are some friends on there they're Jewish

I rubbed it in I said they're Jewish Jewish Jewish Jewish Jewish He said He said Swiftie you amazed me

He says you know He says I don't If they're bad people You don't hang out with them I said But Irving What are the Jewish

How do you do What are you saying He says look He said I run a business He says I have a I have a rooming house I have tenants in there. He says, and these people are like animals.

I said, well, but they pay your rent, right? He said, well, yeah, they pay my rent. He says, sometimes I spit on them. He says, I put the money in my pocket. He says, so Irving, you've got to deal with people no matter who they are, don't you? He said, well, my business, you have to when you're running over a roominghouse business. But that's not the same as friendship of hanging out with him. This guy's not beating the allegations.

No, no. I said, Irving, I can't explain to you all of this stuff. I said, you know, he says, you're going to so angry. He says, who's angry? I'm not angry? He said, I just wish that we could exterminate all those goddamn black people. Oh, my God. Wow.

It's good to know you were a liberal at the time. Yeah, yeah. And you were hoping to not doing that. Oh, I was liberal. I said, yeah. He said, I don't know. But this is what we're talking now the 50s. This is early 50s?

Yeah, exactly. And he ended up in the newspaper. Why? Remember? He what? ended up in the newspaper. Well, yeah. Why did he do?

This is a good story. It was 2 o'clock in the morning. My phone rings. I was a bachelor living in the city. It's Irving. He says, Swifty, you got to come up here right away. I'll have that he called you Swifty. I said, what do you mean?

Why? It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Why are you calling me? He says, my tenants are all passing out like flies. He's sick. And they're vomiting. They're vomiting. So I get in my car in those days.

I parked outside. I drove up to 95th Street in Columbus Avenue. And sure enough, They were out there. Oh, you know, blowing up and miserable. So I said, what's the problem here? So one guy says to me, he says, gas, gas, gas, gosh, gosh. I said, was something with the gas?

Do you have a gas line? Yeah, we've got a gas line of a sort of building. Apparently there's a leak, and they were sucking on this gas, and they all got sick. This guy gassed his tenants? Accidentally, but he was talking about trying to exterminate them, and then all of a sudden gas is going through? Right.

So I said, you know. It's like the end of it. So why did you call the police and gets an ambulance? He says, I can't. I said, why not? He said, do you know how many violations I have in the basement? Oh, my goodness. So what happened is, so someone finally did call the police and they came.

And it was maybe two days later, I read in the paper, Irving Hirschfield, well, first of the superintendent, hit with fines. illegal illegal people living in the rooming house etc it was Irving my uncle and apparently he got hit with a fine which was somewhere around $2,000 for when they came they saw all the violations the ceiling was falling apart plaster I mean violations all over the place so that was Irving and and he had to eventually I got it. He had eventually sell the place. I mean, I romanticise slums.

Yeah, you really do. It's an ongoing problem that I have. Because I never really think about how bad it must have been. Right. And you can assure me it was bad. It sounds like it. But also, I mean, this is partly why real estate costs have gone up so much. It's so much more expensive to build a place and you have to keep it maintained and

then we have to have sprawl. I mean, there was a time where you would just say, sort it out amongst yourselves. And if people die, they die. But that overall the rent will be lower. Right. That's right. Right. That's right.

So you missed that time. Well, I think there's a mid-put, like, clearly we can't afford the standard of housing that we have now. Right. The economy is out of step with, uh, the reality. We deserve something a little. People would, if you could halve people's rent and it was a little closer to a slum, they would take it happily, I think. If it wasn't like a new building with all the amenities. Yeah, I think, you mean, like, if it was a little bit shitty,

but still habitable. I think we would happily have faster, shittier housing. Right. If it was cheap. So what you're talking about is really timing. Yes. So after the Second World War, everybody came back from the factories and New York was rents when sky high.

They formed the OPA, the Office of Price Administration. Yes. And that's where we made our money. You and your rooming house. In the rooming house. And we brought the place just before that in late 44. How much you pay for it, do you remember? The total price for the Brownstone was a whole building.

We put $500 down. On a building in Manhattan. I know, it's crazy. I still have the receipt. You got to hold this close to you. Is this what you do? But is this when rent control comes in there? After the war.

And so with rent control, the government is paying the gap? Or they're just not allowed to change? No, no, no. The government, the government. So they just punish landlords. If you want to raise the rent, you've got to let the government know. Or the tenant has a right to go to the old. office of Price Administration.

But then family to family, people just hand down secret rent control deal through the years. This is not. Well, not secret. It's allowed. I know, but, I mean. I mean, think about this way, though. It's like, if it's hinky. If your family moves into an apartment, it's rent controlled.

And the landlords do get certain benefits. Even if they don't get money, they get certain tax incentives to have a rent controlled property, right? They do? Yeah. And so then if you grow up in this apartment and you're renting it, you don't buy it. And then, but your parents pass it down. to you. That's like your family home and yeah it's rental. I'm not opposed. I mean, part

of me is a free market person. Right. It's scandalized. But then part of me is proud for the people of New York. Right. The old New Yorkers that they have so many like nowhere else in the country these scandalous deals to help each other. But very few now. There's so many of them. There's not that many. You should look into it.

If you're going to move in, you've got to have one of these accredited moving companies and they're going to charge you this amount of money. I don't think that's true. I think that is true. Depends on who you are, where you are. Dad, do me a favor? You really have to move that closer. Okay.

You can rub it all over your lips. You can literally put your beard. It should be touching your beard. I know, but I'm so tempted. It's red like an eye. I want to take a bite out of it. Go for it. You should do that.

You should do it. It's really disgusting. In the 50s, I want to talk about the village in the 50s because that's what you talk about, you know, the Jews not want to go there and hang out. But Lenny Bruce starts up around that time. Oh, yeah. And stand-up comedy begins for the first time in these dinky little venues. So how old are you in that?

starts happening. Well, I was a teenager then. I guess it was 14, you know. Did you ever see him? Lenny Bruce? No, I couldn't. Couldn't get in. You got to get 18, 21. They were sold out all the time. Really? When did he

die? Oh, God, I forget Oh, lickety split. He's not around for a little. Yeah. But something starts, something that wasn't happening starts happening. You know, no one was telling jokes in a coffee house basement before that. I know I'm talking to the right person.

I'm like up to you because I was attracted in the beginning to Charlie Chaplin. I couldn't get enough of Charlie Chaplin. Of course. Still obsessed. And then it was W.C. Fields. Hello, W.C. Fields. Yeah, boy, I came out of all bad. And then it was the Marx Brothers.

Yeah. Groucho, Chico, Harpoff. They were up in Amsterdam Avenue, 95th Street. I grew up in 82nd. It was off Amsterdam. Wow. So they were practically neighbors. But then came Woody Allen.

I knew that was coming. Yeah. He loves what he all. I mean, you know, and so I... I think he was innocent. Okay. I started doing papers. I was an English major.

And I did a paper on this. I did a paper on this on comedy. And I compared the comedy of W.C. Fields with Sir John Falstaff in Shakespeare. Yeah. And I got an A. And I'm still friends with the professor. and he said, you never did that. And I went and I dug it up and I came down to the village.

I said, here it is. Yeah. And there it was. And he gave me the A and he wrote it, great idea, great. Yeah. So I'm really into that. But it occurred to me. Well, there's a dignity at W.C.

What's that? What's that? What's that? There's a dignity. There's a, that allows him to fall and be frustrated. It's a double comedic effect. Yes. To look at him with the bulbous nose and the way he walked and when he had,

is funny. And when he opens his mouth, if you listen to what he's saying, that's funny. It's called a double comedic effect. Now, Groucho was witty, but he also had that crazy walk. He was walking silly,

and he had a silly look. And Harpo with his curls and his crazy face. But then Woody Allen is trying to be and is successfully being a sex symbol. And only, I think, because women have started taking the pill. But it's undeniable. It's undeniable that he becomes

that women fan him. sexy at the time. You know, he's going on the Dick Cabot show and having a push-up competition and all these these beautiful women, all always interested in him in picture after picture. And that doesn't seem to do. I mean, you know, you go, well, of course, she's going to bed with the 14-year-old in Manhattan. How old is she, is she 14 in Manhattan? Is she, Hemingway's granddaughter?

Oh, I don't know. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's... Oh, Merrill Hemingway? Yes. In Manhattan? Oh, she's 17 in the movie. Five.

Yeah, but I think she was younger in her life. She's very young. Yeah. She's very young. But it's also a very happy ending. in the movie where she decides to stay. What does she say at the end of Manhattan? You got to trust people.

You got to believe in people? Well, gee, I don't know. She turns around and she's like, you know, blah, blah, blah, but you got to trust. You got to have a little faith in people or something like that. I mean, there's also, I think about how Woody Allen is kind of like a Joe Rogan. This would be a strange parallel.

He doesn't know too much about Joe Rogan. We've talked about it. Joe Rogan would be the most famous man. There's a kind of man that exists after Joe Rogan. After? After. Like that Joe Rogan is a guy. Yeah.

And now there are men who do all these jujitsu men, bow hunting men, comedy men. And they want to be Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan has shown them a new way it's possible to be a man. Right. And I think with Woody Allen, I don't know who he's necessarily tapping into it. But there are, it's, you know, Hugh Grant is a Woody Allen. All these men are just doing Woody Allen. That's kind of nebushy.

You know nebush means? How would you describe nebish? There's like a new archetype. Like an intellectual kind of anxious man? Yeah, who has no strong manly features. Right. Yeah, so Hugh Grant would be that guy. Like I meant who else?

But of course, Woody Allen does. I mean, you think so? Oh, everything I read about him as a man is not him as a clown. He couldn't. He couldn't be that neurotic. He'd fall apart. He makes a movie every year. Well, yeah, yeah, it's true.

The tyranny of the will you have to get people out of your way. And he writes his own material. He writes his own stuff. And as a stand-up, fantastic. Like, really, that stand-up, first record is as good as anybody. He just walks on stage and he's a small, skinny guy, you know, and he looks up hearingly.

He's funny immediately. Yeah. He didn't open his mouth. Yeah. And he's funny. My wife was violated. But it was not a moving violation. Is that what he says?

Yeah. He does terrible. Horrible things, yeah. He was very nice. as well, but it's so affable. Yeah. When, I mean, when does Woody Allen, that's the late 50, early 60s? They have the same age, same year.

No. No, we're exactly the same age. Well, not the same birthday. Same year. Oh, not the same birthday, right. Right. Oh, here comes a hanky. Both with the younger lady.

Dad and I fight about the hankies all the time. When you were sick recovering from the hospital last year and I was staying here, there was a point, because his nose was running, because a couple years ago you had an accident, you broke your nose. Yeah. So, he was running more. So at one point, he said, he said, he was running more. At one point, he's just recovering right here. You know, there's seven hankies, like little piles around him.

And he was sleeping. And I started to pick up a couple of them because they were used. And he was like, don't do that. I was like, Dad, you have seven. And he was like, I need them all. I wish I. Except bygone, people don't do it anymore. What's that?

The embroidered hanky. It's not embroider, but he loves a hanky. It's something about, and no one in our generation is a hanky person. It's true. But, yeah, that's. I should be. I get very. Yeah, you should have hanky.

But I'll tell you. I've learned a lot of compromise in just those moments. I'm like, do I want to... Wait a minute, wait a minute. You don't have a hankie? You're not leaving here without a hanky. I have tissues around me. He meant to make you coffee, but instead you can give him a hanky.

I've had coffee. I think of it. Okay, there's a yanky. I never met him. But this one is trouble. This one, I love Eve. He's like, dear friend, I go around with Eve. But when you begin these stories about the stubbornness, I think.

We were at the airport. I knew this is going to happen. We had, we were going the same way. We had to split up. Oh, you know, my dad, I thought you were talking about when we left the backs. I had to, oh, my back. I could do 100 stories. When we landed.

I kind of told my dad a little bit about it. I didn't really go into the details about the taxi thing. Oh, it doesn't matter. But we apologize afterwards. Yes. No one else has this back and forth with the people who open. It's true. I work for James, but so often, you know, we,

we always go, I think that one was me. I thought about why I, you're smart, good company, so funny. And so you go, I will deal with the rest. Some other things. You know, if we have an argument about whether we're getting an Uber or a taxi,

is I can't believe this argument. We're entering the fifth minute of what really should just be, anyone else would just go, we'll do it your way. And you go, thank you very much. But instead, it's a battle, it's will. It's controlled. and it's the will.

But it's smart and wonderful, and so it's fine. But if you did, through an accident, lose 20 IQ points. You're off the tour. Yeah, I know. I really have to keep it sharp, you know. But that's also,

we also apologize to each other. I think that's a sign of, you know, a certain way of being raised that you're able to have the difficult conversation and get back together. Japanese? No, the Japanese don't apologize. They're bad.

No, but that's not what he means. I kind of do. We have arguments and then we'll come back together. Not immediately, but yeah, we'll figure it out. Well, you and I have had plenty of arguments over the years. You're lucky. Do we ever not have an argument? What the fuck do you mean by that?

We can argue with that. Sometimes my dad's annoying me. This is only, you've only found this funny in like the last 10 years. But I'll go, hey dad, has anyone ever told you to shut the fuck up? And you love it. You get to do that once. No, he likes it. Maybe not right now.

No, that turns into abuse so quickly. Yeah, but he still has his faculties. She says it to me. She hits me. But you remember me saying that to you. Dad, has anyone ever told you to shut the fuck up? I must have blocked it over. But Eve, no, Eve disappears from your, I mean, you were in Korea for seven years. Yeah.

Which also must have been very difficult to lose a daughter to Korea a long time. And then Australia. Yes, for five years. And then only in COVID does Eve come back. It's true. This is correct. I was gone for a long time. I was pretty mad at my family.

She was doing really well in Melbourne. In Australia. Eve was so much more accomplished than me. It's true. Yeah. Eve was on a, before COVID, really on a rocket ship, they're doing very well in Australia. And the business wouldn't touch me.

I was an unpleasant person. I've done a lot of work on myself. Well, then during COVID, I think a lot of people, including me, I don't know about you, but you feel like I've been robbed. Things were going so well. I had to start over. I was so happy that the world should. shut down. I had nothing going for me at all.

Right. And then all of a sudden, actually, this is my life. I mean, only because it's COVID and we've talked about so many Jewish things, but I was in the Hasidic section of Melbourne. Malvin? Um, um, no, hold on. Oh, South by St. Kilda. Yeah, I know what is.

What is it again? Yeah, it might be Mel. It's, um, it's, it's absolutely all gone now. But I was there and everyone was packing up. And it was just happened to be where we were. Yeah. But it was, and we knew we were going into lock. And it was just my family and about a hundred Hasidic family.

Yeah, perfect. Dragging things off the shelves into a, and there was some things, because it was a normal Coles as well that just had a big kosher section. And Coles is a supermarket. So Coles is that big supermarket. But there were a lot of things that I could take that other people went in. Right, that's true. You got all the ham.

Probably did very well on ham that day. All the ham. Because he was living in the religious neighborhood, but it was a normal supermarket. And so they went into lockdown, but they couldn't, they had to keep kosher. But the Hasidic thing. I have a great affinity and love for the Hasidic people. Right, because James thinks that... Eve hates them.

You don't like Hasidic. The Hasidic Judaism. Well, that's short. The more secular mainline Jewish people have such disgust for the Hasidic... Excuse me. I weren't... Even today, I was around a Hasidic man. I went to the doctor this morning.

and a Hasidic man came in and he was older so I was trying to be patient and he stood in there was like a little hallway like it wasn't a hallway but it was like there was no gap and he stood there completely he was talking to his wife and he just was blocking me and he looked at me and he knew he's blocking me and then he turned back to talk to her and I say excuse me sir and he you know and maybe he wasn't fully with it but finally I had to go excuse me sir I get so rude with Hasidic people

Do get very rude with this. But that's because... I see them, I think, that's a cool hat. Right. I see you, see you, ugh. But this is the thing. I get rude with them because I treat them like people, you know? And they are...

I've been accused of this before. What? Of having low expectations. Right, right. Look at these cute little Jews. People get angry at me for not getting angry enough. Right. Black people behaving a certain way.

Because they go, hold them to a higher standard. Right, right. Right. Come on. Well, I think it's like, well, with the Hasidics, I think it's like, they just treat women like shit. You know what it is? I think that being super...

Some of the weeks are beautiful. I think that being super religious is like makes you... It's kind of like a learned autism. That's how I really feel about it. You know what I'm talking about by autism? Where it's like... And they become...

Because you have to become numb to all of your feelings. All you can do and all they do, all day, they daven, they pray. All day. They rock back and forth, right? You can attest to this. Oh, yeah.

And it's like there's... It's not about your will. It's not about what's in your heart. It's not about what you want to do with your life or how you feel about this food or if you're hungry you do what you're told to do you wear the closure and so then you get these people who are just completely blocked out to everything except for i think it's good to have a little of that we've had the 60s revolution we've had the why that it's all now it's time to push it back down again yeah so that a new thing can

break forward says the weird mountain man like just with the crazy hair and the well you know And all of the Jews religion, you've got to face the east. Yes. And I... Well, east from here. From here, you've got to face Jerusalem. My sense direction is terrible. And I say, now you're telling me, you know.

I used to pray. I didn't matter where I would... Actually, I like the rear window because there was a tomato across the street. You know tomatoes, right? You know tomatoes, right? A real tomato. I like to watch her in the morning. I'll be using that on the train.

I'm celebrating. When I make fun of you when you're going, oh, that woman, look at that. Please, I don't talk in that way. But I'm doing my father, an impression of my father. There was one lady at five guys. At the burger place. At the burger place who had a big bum.

Last night. That's all. I mentioned I said, wow, big. He said to me last night, we got a burger. And he goes, look at her. Wow. that's a big butt. I didn't say look at her.

But that I was like, oh, there she is. Now, hold on. I was pretending to be you. The context is, the other guys,

at five guys, the other people working at this burger place were also looking at this coworker. And one of them got her to clean stuff and was taking photos of her. She was going,

get in there. Clean that wall. Yeah, yeah. Turn around. Let me get it. We need you to clean over there now. Oh my God. And I couldn't believe it as it was happening.

Right, because of her butt. Yeah. But James, right. So fine. It wasn't exclusively me making a sexual point. Right, but my impression of you in those moments, when you go, when you said to me, you were like, I don't have that.

I don't sound like a creepy man. You're doing an impression of your father. A tomato. It was a real tomato. I'm going to start going to. We were in the back of our father. We were necking. You know what necking is?

We were heavy petting. And I go, please, stop telling me. Did you ever, did you ever see the Andy Warhol thing come through? I realized you would have been here at the time. I saw the movies. You saw the movies? I didn't know. never want to go and see the movies.

Oh, this is the worst? It's, um, who's the guy who lost his jaw? Who's the guy who's, Roger Ebert? Roger Ebert. Is he the film critic? Oh, he goes, but he goes, this man has nothing, he goes, about Andy Warhol. He goes, this man has nothing to say. He just wants to make movies and he does, and we have to put up with them.

But I've never seen an Andy Warhol movie, but you saw them all. Oh, yeah. With a friend, we went there, and they were terrible, just terrible. Why did you keep going? I don't know. Oh, hey. We wanted to say they were any. We wanted to grade them.

Was this a PJ? No, it was another friend. PJ was my cousin. Were they just in cinemas around town, by the way? Like, where would you? Yeah, this movie theater was showing all warhol stuff. Wow. But I mean, let me tell you, it was a scene in bed with a guy and a gal.

You say, wow, something could happen here. But whenever they said anything and whispered in each other, it was muted. It was deliberately distorted. And we sit there. there and I do that for hours. Time goes by. And he turns over. I mean, what the hell?

You know? I mean, we couldn't believe it. Yeah. But there was another one where his couple was in bed. I need you to do this. Okay, couples in bed. Move your elbow. Move your elbow.

There you go. Rest it right there. It's controlling. I mean, but you should be able to hear him. And this woman's mother comes in. Yeah. and finds them in bed. So what does she do?

She gets in bed with them and she gives them a lecture. You shouldn't be having sex. Pointing on them. And you can't hear anything. Well, but you saw her face. Right. You know, that sort of thing. But this goes for hours.

No plot. Oh, it goes on. It goes on and on. Now, I read somewhere where he used a lot of people from his factory. Yeah. The Art Factory? He called it. No, they called The Factory.

Oh. Yeah. But Eddie Sedgwick. Is that right? Edie Sedgwick, right? Edy? Eiddy or Eddie Sedgwick? I don't know.

I'm even getting wrong. But all these are the superstars. That's where the superstars come from. And then also the Velvet Underground to come through. I mean, there must have really... I mean, that, I guess I'm until 1980. Lennon is shot in 1980. And then maybe there's a shift after that.

Well, one of these people stabbed him, you know. Lennon? Oh, Warhol. The feminist woman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But don't forget that...

She became harmless later. shocking. But in 80, my dad was already 45 years old. So a lot of that, you were kind of, at some point, you weren't as interested in that scene. So Lennon was 40 when he got shot this.

You were only a little bit older than John Lennon. But you must have, I mean, when the Beatles came through, and the girls start going insane. Yeah. And you'd be, you must, you were a little older than that cohort.

But, I mean, what, what the heck was going on there? I mean, what is happening to the, were people very repressed before and then they're not? That's always the point in the movie where it goes from black and white to technicolor. Which movie? In every movie, there's like a black and white section and then it's... But that's what happened in that. People see James Brown dancing and all of a sudden.

But that's what happened in that exhibit we saw, too, the Paul McCartney one. When they're in Miami. So we just saw an exhibit in Toronto this weekend. And so it was like the Beatles from Paul McCartney's perspective. He had a camera. Yeah. And everything was in black and white. And then they came to the U.S. and did the Ed Sullivan show, which was their big moment.

And then all the photos switched to color. But that's like the culture as well. Did it feel like that at all? It seems like it was fairly debauched beforehand in certain places, but not maybe in the media. Do you know what we're asking? You know what we're asking? That cultural shift. Yeah, the culture shift of the 60s.

When they came over from Liverpool, it was like exotic. Yeah. Who are these? You never, Liverpool, where was that? That was the first thing. But when they started to sing

after a while, you saw that these guys are really talented. Right. But some of the people like my cousin Selma, Irving's daughter. She goes crazy.

Oh, I couldn't know. It's like she's having sex and her head with them. Right. So this is what, it seems odd. That reaction seems a. Yeah.

strange to you strange to me and this people were maybe repressed beforehand so that's the point is like did you feel that the culture before the Beatles or before the 60s was very kind of buttoned well look we had we had the what the hell's the name ain't nothing but a hound though Elvis oh yeah yeah someone was crazy about Elvis when he sang someone when she when when when he did his thing with the legs and all that she was so happy she almost cried or like tears Isn't that crazy? Yeah. It's like a cult.

But it's like imagine now. Some people do that. People, the only other person I know that people will do that for is Michael Jackson. People would faint, you know, and cry, right? Well, yeah, but he had to take it to such a strange level. Yes. He had to hold his. Costumes and dancing.

Yes. And weird triumph of the will iconography. He's also wearing a Nazi jacket. Yes. You know, like he's doing everything. He can't. He's a statue. Right.

And he starts a ranch for children. A child ranch. A child rancher he can... It is nice being back in America where people agree with me that he did nothing wrong. Yeah, right. Not everybody, but some people agree. Yes, yeah. But now it seems like there's nothing...

I heard that he snores. I know that's true. On the drugs he was on? Yeah, sure, yeah. He snorts, it's impossible for me to imagine something getting that sort of reaction now. The Beatles, like the Beatles. Well, like the Beatles, like Michael Jackson or Elvis, that everything is so. The most people can do is maybe get a negative reaction.

Right. I'll tell you when it started. Your microphone. Your microphone. Oh, my microphone. Here, just move your arm up, and that way your hand won't get tired. Yeah. It started with Sinatra.

Okay. You know, oh, he's so dreaming, and he was singing these songs, you know, in his way. And, I mean, the people, and then they, and it was furthered by the media. They have a lot to do with it. Yeah. And especially when I saw that there were girls who were crying and wanted to touch them, some of them were passing out. I mean, it's amazing. But that's kind of like, you know, I would say repressed sexuality.

But I don't know if it's that. I think it's just the, I think a lot of it is also the crowd. It's contagious. Yeah. They're in that crowd and they start something, start swimming. and it's like the whole thing becomes like a movement. Yes.

So I was always fascinated with that and I'm just trying to think if there's an equal if there's a gal that I ever fawned over. I think men have the same reaction to a lady. A lot of those feelings are very private. That's right. One thing is you think of

sort of the Nazis and the youth movement and all of a sudden big crowds are showing up places and young people are getting together in big groups. Right. And that's, there is a parallel there. Yeah. Between that and popular music of this, like, the Volk and some feeling.

It's interesting because, yeah, I guess in Germany at the time, it was based on anger and hatred, whereas then you have the Beatles and Elvis and whatever, and it's based on this excitement. So like punk music, though, is not about, you know, kumbaya and good feeling. Right. And there's a way to vent your feelings or a place to put them. Having a big, having a big collective subconscious. Maybe now it's too fragmented and people don't. feel the same things.

That's really what I'm hung up on. My feeling about now is that people are on all these medications to numb their feelings on antidepressants and tranquilizers and birth control, whatever. But it does change so that you don't find, you don't need catharsis in the same way because you're so numb. Yeah. Or maybe there's no hope of changing. That's true.

I don't. Well, I mean, partially because of the depression. I think antidepressants have stopped us from evolving the. culture. I look at Mamdani. Well, I don't have the same problems with Mom Dani. You like Mum Dani. You like Mum Dani. I don't like him. All right. Okay. This one, you hate Mom Dani.

Yeah, yeah. She was a Sliwa fan. She loved Korn. Oh, good God. You know, who was it was, you know, she was. She loves Cuomo, she would say. I don't love, you like Cuomo. You like Cuomo. Which one? No, Andrew Cuomo, who recently

ran. Yeah. Yeah. Despite, yeah. I mean, look, I don't love Cuomo because of all the allegations against him. It's Italian. You know, remember all these women? I know, but it's not a love, hate kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think I still like him more than Mom Dani.

I'm really, I know people think that Cuomo is such a nod to the past. I think Mom Dami, Mom Dani is a charlatan and I think he doesn't like Jews. Even then what he's offered, no, he definitely. He does not like Jews. He doesn't like Catholics either. He didn't come to the new Archbishop. He's got his people. Right.

Right. He's got his people. But you know why I think that, right? That he doesn't like Jews. No what? Well, he just, I mean, The first thing, anyway, I guess I... Well, I don't know if he likes or dislikes.

I mean, he's trying to stay kind of neutral. It's what he... Politically... That's how he presents himself. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that well. Yeah.

The Brooklynite, Adam Friedland faction is a big fan. Adam Friedland is a Jewish comedian podcaster. He'd be our leading... Yeah. Anti-Zionists. Dad, do you want to...

Up to you. Oh, no. At some point, we'll tell you. We've got two. We got one minute. We got one minute. Well, I was going to say, do you want to tell any jokes? Oh, yes, I was going to ask.

Because we are making, I'm making a movie, and I'm doing a section at the start with jokes over late. So if you have any jokes, you would like to tell. Your favorite jokes. I heard this one about the skinny woman.

Which one? The skinny prostitute. Oh, I told you that. You tell it because it's better. He told you or I told you. You told me, I don't. The one about the guy who gets the thinnest prostitute.

See what happens when they don't eat? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll put my microphone down. Yeah, you tell the joke. even take the audio. What I would like is the start of the movie is people telling jokes laid over. Anyway, it's hard to describe. So you want to do an isolated? You know in Manhattan where he's

doing shots of the city. I'll do that with my small town but it'll be a series of different people telling jokes. So tell us. Would you tell the skinny prostitute joke? Well, I could but there's another one that I'm thinking of. Tell as many as you'd like as long as you go. Okay. Well,

You have to move your mic close your mouth. Yes, ma'am. Well, Mr. Finney was coming home from work and as he was coming home he passed his store and the boy said come over here, come over here

and he looked up and it was this guy who was a salesman. He's one of these spiffy guys so he said get away from me, get away from me I'm not going to buy anything and I said look I know you just got paid I know you just got paid today's a pay day

but I have something for you that's special He says, get out of him with special. I don't want a special. I just want to go home. I want him to get my soup. He said, look, just take a look. It wouldn't hurt. And he opens the door a little bit.

And he looks in, and he sees an elephant. He says, what's the elephant? He says, that's the biggest thing going. He says, you buy this elephant, everybody will say, wow. He's out of an apartment building, a 15th floor. What am I going to do with an elephant? He probably wouldn't fit in the elevator. He says, he will.

I measured. He says, you measured? I measured. He'll fit. Don't worry. Don't worry. He says, look, the one thing I don't want, and I'm not going to buy it, I say, I don't want an elephant. What I do with an elephant? It was ridiculous. He says, I'll tell you what. He says, just give me $100. I'll turn around. It's such a deal you wouldn't believe. And take the elephant, just walk away. I don't care. He says, it's worth a lot more. He's, I'm not going to buy anything for me, you crook. He says, you thief, I'm not going to buy anything from you. So he starts walking away, and he says, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'll tell you what. Instead of $100, I'll give you $2 for $150. And he whirls around and he says, now you're talking. I'll take it. I'll take it.