The Jamie Kern Lima Show - How to Argue with a Narcissist! How to Identify a Narcissist + Key Secrets & Rules You Don’t want to Break w/Jefferson Fisher

Starting point is 00:00:00 How do you argue with a narcissist? How do you talk to a narcissist? How do you most effectively communicate with a narcissist? I am so excited for today's episode and back by popular demand, communication phenom and trial attorney Jefferson Fisher is here to talk with you and me today about the key secrets and rules you don't want to break for arguing with a narcissist, whether at home, in friendships or in the workplace, and how it impacts all areas of our lives.

Starting point is 00:00:34 Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a fifth generation award-winning attorney, writer, and speaker. His work has gained him millions of followers all over the world through short, simple, practical social media videos teaching people how to argue less and talk more. Whether it's handling a heated conversation, dealing with a difficult personality, or standing your ground with confidence,

Starting point is 00:00:59 confidence. Jefferson helps you communicate during life's everyday arguments and conversations and his brand new book called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More, is out now. Jefferson says, we can change everything about your life by what you say next. And you and I are in for a treat because Jefferson has stepped away from his busy legal practice. He got on an airplane. He flew here to be with you and me today. Whether you're listening for your yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern-Lima Show podcast family. Remember, this episode is not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life, too.

Starting point is 00:01:48 Before we jump into this episode, I'd be so grateful if you take two seconds to click on the follow or subscribe button on the app you're listening or watching the podcast on. It'll help you because you're going to be the very first to get the episodes and it's going to help the show because by you following it, it's more likely to be promoted to others to discover. And if you leave a five-star review, that would be even more amazing. And just thank you so much. This is our show together and it truly means so much to me. Jamie Kernelima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern, Lima in their life.

Starting point is 00:02:21 Jamie Kern, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima. Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the Jamie Kern-Lima show. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. I'm honored to be here. I'm so excited you're here. Wow. What has happened with you, with your advice, with your videos, it has become a phenomenon.

Starting point is 00:02:48 Thank you. Very sweet. Thank you. Yeah, it's truly been a blessing. And right now I'm just holding on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm excited so much to dive into.

Starting point is 00:02:58 today, narcissists. Okay. Narcissist. Jefferson Fisher, some of your most viewed videos are about how to handle narcissists in our life. So many people have a narcissist who's a parent. Right. Or, and they didn't even know what that meant until a year ago.

Starting point is 00:03:17 And now they're like, whoa, I was raised with that. And I'm, or perhaps it's a partner or it's friends. In your new book, The Next Conversation, right? which is argue less, talk more, so many great tools. You know, I read it cover to cover and am already applying some of the tools to my life right now, which I'm so grateful for. I'm so excited for everyone to pick up their copy. And we get so many questions.

Starting point is 00:03:42 Oh my gosh, I get emails. I get DMs, right, about, you know, how does being with a narcissist impact my self-worth? How do I, you know, how do I know if I'm a narcissist? I get that question a lot. So, you know, just to ask you, you know, off the top, what is, how do you define a narcissist? And how does somebody know if there's one in their life or if they're one? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:11 Well, let me get this out of the gate. If you're asking the question, if you're a narcissist, here's a clue. That tells you you're not the narcissist. And you actually have the emotional awareness to ask that question or even care to ask that question. ones that are true narcissists, not just people who have narcissistic tendencies. They are somebody who just exhibits maybe toxic behaviors every now and then. We're talking about the people that are tried and truth. They are a narcissistic person.

Starting point is 00:04:41 They don't have empathy. They don't do empathy. They only do themselves. They have to be the best out of everything. They can't take the idea that they are not better. than who they're sitting across from. Who has the better ideas? Who said the better thing?

Starting point is 00:05:00 You compliment somebody, they need to put them down to make themselves feel better. It is a continuous loop with these type of personalities that they want praise and control from you at all times. When we find ourselves in an argument with a narcissist, Yeah. What do we do and what don't we do? Right.

Starting point is 00:05:26 Number one is you need to acknowledge what you're in. What you're in is a game. It's a game I call praise or provoke. And when you're in a conversation with a narcissist, an argument doesn't matter. You're playing a game. And it looks beatable. It looks like you could convince them.

Starting point is 00:05:42 If you could only get them to understand how it affects you. If you could only get them to acknowledge what they did was wrong, then everything would be okay. Then you could fix them. but the game is rigged. It's like a carnival game. It was built against you. You're not going to win. So it's a game of praise or provoke, meaning if you're not giving them praise, if you're not saying how great they are, then they will turn to provoke you to cause an argument.

Starting point is 00:06:13 because they delight in your praise just as much they delight in your anger, in your emotion, and your response. It's the same thing. They're getting that sense of control that I can control and manipulate your emotions. So if you ever feel like you're in this circle with somebody, a circular argument with somebody who's a narcissist, they are trying to take a hold of your emotions. And they're feeding off.

Starting point is 00:06:41 They feed off of you getting angry. at what they said. They like that. When they can jab you and you get mad at that, they, they, they like that kind of thing. So it is, it is something that you need to first acknowledge your and praise are provoked. Number two, like we talked about with gas sliders, you need to use as few of words as possible, meaning you just acknowledge what they said, but you don't have to engage in what they said. You're adding that stiff form of distance. As simple as I hear you, noted, that's good to know. Like just short, concise, indifferent response. is that you're just not feeding into what they're saying.

Starting point is 00:07:16 It's not going to get you there. And when that happens, they just don't have anywhere to go with it. Three is you just need to know when to walk away. That no response is very much a response. If you think that somebody didn't answer your text for five minutes, that this might say something. They didn't answer it for five days. And that says something else.

Starting point is 00:07:39 So the power of the pause and the silence by not responding to it at all is often the most powerful move you can make. What do you do if you realize somebody really close to you? Yeah. And you're like, whoa, you just started realizing all the signs and it's like exactly them to a T. Yeah. What do you do?

Starting point is 00:08:02 Well, it depends on that relationship. If it's one that you need to nurture and you really care about it, you've been dealing with these symptoms. Now you just have a way to take. define it. It doesn't change what you do. It doesn't change how you approach it. It's just now you have a label to put on that behavior because the term I think narcissists was really even used until here lately of now it's we see these kind of tendencies everywhere and in the way they show up and go, oh my gosh, yes, this person's a total narcissist. Well, what words are also used sometimes as just a put down for

Starting point is 00:08:40 somebody says something you don't like? Oh, they're a total narcissist. They just disagreed with you. So it's very easy to throw around. But you say somebody's in your life and you're starting to see these signs that they're exhibiting. I think it is worth the conversation at least once of what you're seeing and what you're worried about. Most likely they're going, if they are a narcissist, they're going to totally disagree. And they are going to make it even worse. That conversation is probably not going to go well.

Starting point is 00:09:10 But the point is you at least said what you need. needed to say to get it out to them. Next would be just the understanding of, okay, how do I go back to it? You're going to see the praise and provoke. You're going to see that you need to just use very short words and you need to walk away from conversations anytime then it comes up. This is, to your point, it's such a, I mean, it's such a word that in a concept and narcissistic tendencies is something that people, so many people are just starting to hear about or learn about or research. And I think a lot of people have realized they were maybe raised by a parent who was one.

Starting point is 00:09:49 Some people are worried they have a child that's exhibiting those kind of tendencies. And I think what you're saying is, okay, once you realize all that, well, you've already been dealing with it for a long time. Yeah, yeah. Right? So then, you know, one thing that we can do is go, okay, well, how do I have to be? respond, right? So when an argument starts, now how do I stay in my power to not get taken down the path? There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it,

Starting point is 00:10:21 but first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back.

Starting point is 00:11:04 Build unshakable self-love. Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step in to the person you are born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of worthy plus some amazing thank you. bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy.

Starting point is 00:11:56 Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you. My weekly free inspirational newsletter is packed with tips and tools to help you find out. It's called What? one-on-one with Jamie, and it's delivered right to your inbox each Tuesday morning. It's a love letter from me to you, from my soul, to yours, and I hope it brings you the words and messages you need at just the right moment. Plus, when you're part of my free inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first to get behind-the-scenes content, inspirational messages, and be the first to learn about upcoming events and more. It's the place to be, and I sure hope you'll join me there. So if you're not on

Starting point is 00:12:44 the list yet, you can sign it for free at jamiekernlima.com or click the link in the show notes below. And here's to becoming unstoppable together. And now more of this incredible conversation together. I think what you're saying is, okay, once you realize all that, well, you've already been dealing with it for a long time. Yeah, yeah. Right? So you're So then, you know, one thing that we can do is go, okay, well, how do I respond? Right? So when an argument starts, now how do I stay in my power to not get taken down the path? Because, you know, whenever I've gotten in, you know, discussions or disagreements with people who have narcissistic tendencies, you don't ever feel like you don't ever feel like you reach a point where there's, where they get it or where they get it or where.

Starting point is 00:13:37 you're heard or seen or understood or even if you try to hear see and understand them you don't ever feel like that's sufficient and it just is a thing forever and so you know whether it's someone who is in having to navigate um whether it's arguing or communicating with a narcissist at work or somebody in their life um you know what are your best tips for just how okay you can't control them. Of course, you can decide in most cases, if it's a personal relationship, you know, what are you going to do about that? Are you going to change the, you know, the relationship you have with them or not? Sometimes at work, you can't necessarily change that. But that aside and just saying it is what it is, what are some things that we can do to make

Starting point is 00:14:30 sure, you know, we don't go down the rabbit hole. We don't get sucked into it. We don't do the wrong thing. And we also try to protect our peace. Yeah. Number one would be understanding that you don't need an apology to make your feelings valid. Like they did something to hurt you, but they're a narcissist and you keep trying to say, or they have narcissistic. Narcissistic candidacies. And you keep trying to say like, you owe me an apology. Like you don't understand. I'm saying I need you to say this, that, or the other. And so we sit in that space of thinking I need this from them.

Starting point is 00:15:07 Correct. Okay. And you're saying, we say that one more time. Yeah, you don't need an apology to validate your feelings. You don't need an apology from them to validate your feelings. It doesn't, having them apologize is not the condition by which you were going to determine whether what you felt was real or not. And when you sit there and go, I am so hurt, can you please just see how I, if you could only see how this hurt me and you try to re-explain it, it is rigged carnival game.

Starting point is 00:15:36 It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not happening. You're asking to do something that they can't do. Yes.

Starting point is 00:15:42 It looks beatable. It should be beatable. Yeah. But it's not. And so you have to come to the realization that looking for that apology, you don't, it's not going to happen. and you don't need it to convince yourself that your feelings were justified and real. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:16:00 And what about to heal? Mm-hmm. Do you need their acknowledgement or their apology to do that? A lot of people think they do. Yeah. But, yeah, what do you say to that? To me, the apology is always for the other person, not for you. Like it's, you could say something hurtful, and it's totally up to me.

Starting point is 00:16:25 My choice. Do I catch it or do I let it go? The apology is really for you to understand what you did was an error. It was a foul ball. Can you acknowledge to me, that's what you're saying when you apologize. Can you acknowledge to me that was a foul ball? Yeah, that was a foul ball. It has nothing to do with I need that.

Starting point is 00:16:45 I cannot heal. I cannot move one step forward unless I have this apology from you. The apology is not for you. It's for them. When a narcissist is behaving that way, they're not going to. So you're not going to get it. So you just have the power within yourself. It's that power of detachment.

Starting point is 00:17:03 They're going to be who they're going to be. I'm going to be who I'm going to be. And it goes back to whose voice are you listening to and that you don't need an apology. Their aha moment, the light bulb to click. If only you think you could just change them, they'll be everything that you you want and they'll finally see it that's not going to happen the power is all within yours you don't need that to heal remember this episode is not just for you and me

Starting point is 00:17:30 please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too make sure to pick up jefferson's new book the next conversation argue less talk more and check out his brand new Jefferson Fisher School of Communication. We'll link it in the show notes. And if you love today's episode too, well, my only ask is you please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening or watching it on, then give it a five-star review, and then share this episode with everyone you believe it. Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant

Starting point is 00:18:19 to change today by sharing this episode. Just thank you so much for joining me. And before you go, I wanted to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. It's an honor. to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern-Lima show. And here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need. Blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay as long as you like because you belong here.

Starting point is 00:18:58 You are worthy, you are loved. You are love, and I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kernelima show. Do you struggle with negative self-talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing.

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Starting point is 00:20:08 filled with self-love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlema.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below. Who you spend time around is so important as. energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of

Starting point is 00:20:48 inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamie karlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie Weekly News newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. I am so excited for this book. You know what? Because it's going to save so many. It's going to say it. It's going to say,

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Starting point is 00:24:10 It's such an honor to share this podcast together with you. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

The Jamie Kern Lima Show - How to Argue with a Narcissist! How to Identify a Narcissist + Key Secrets & Rules You Don’t want to Break w/Jefferson Fisher

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