The Jamie Kern Lima Show - Jen Hatmaker: How to embrace your truth, love who you are, realize your power & set yourself free, finally!

Starting point is 00:00:00 At 2.30 a.m. on July 11th, 2020, out of a dead sleep, I hear five whispered words not meant for me. I just can't quit you. My husband of 26 years is voice texting his girlfriend next to me in our bed. It is the end of my life as I know it. I know this is the first time you're talking about. It is. I just haven't. talked about it yet. So I am unpracticed. We start in the ER. It was devastating. I was married for 26 years and I was married to a pastor and together we had sort of built this whole life. This will remain one of the most shocking things that has ever happened to me. What happened in that moment? You wake up, you hear that.

Starting point is 00:01:03 It was chaos. I decided to figure out what the hell was going on. So I spent a couple of hours on his laptop while he's passed out in the middle of the night. And it was becoming immediately clear, oh, he has a whole different life. And I am a fool. And it was so stunning and shocking and disassociated. I almost felt disassociated. In those hours, I couldn't even cry.

Starting point is 00:01:42 I couldn't even, I was just in full shock thinking, this cannot be true. I said, I need the full truth, all of it. I don't, don't, we're not going to waste one second in denial, I need the full truth. And he said, I'm not ready. ready. And I said, okay, pack your shit and get out. And that was the last night he ever spent the night at the house. We have five kids. Four of them were upstairs sleeping that night.

Starting point is 00:02:12 The whole thing burned to the ground in one fell swoop. We'd been in ministry, our whole adult lives. He was the lead pastor. I also preached a lot. We had literally and figuratively put ourselves on a stage. And not just a stage, but a stage of leadership, of spiritual leadership. Everybody knows our kids. They knew our adoption story. To topple from that mountain left us all so injured. Today's episode's your permission slip to embrace your own. truth, love who you are, realize the power inside of you, and set yourself free finally with our incredible guest and friend Jen Hatmaker.

Starting point is 00:03:08 Today is a wake-up call that just might change the way you think of living your best life. So let's get really real for a moment. Right now, are you living your life fully awake? Or would you say you're more disassociated, overly busy, or numb? Are you awake to life's pain? and awake to life's beauty. Awake to the truth about friendships and the relationships in your life

Starting point is 00:03:33 and awake to what's possible when you believe you're worthy of it. Awake to those things you've not dealt with and awake to the power you'll feel when you finally do. Awake to just how often you might bury your truth and awake to the liberation that comes when you face your fears and decide to embrace who you truly are,

Starting point is 00:03:55 how you truly feel and how you have everything you need inside of you to accomplish your biggest hopes and wildest dreams, even if the way they take shape is totally different than you could have imagined. You just have to grief. But there's a moment on the other side of that, not necessarily too far down the road where you go, okay, I can either decide. to be the victim of this shitty story forever. Or I can decide to look at a lot of my co-dependent habits, which helped build a whole house of cards. And then what I do with that is up to me.

Starting point is 00:04:41 What do I want to build in the second half of my life? What do I want to take with me? And what do I want to leave behind? Because I was 46 years old when that happened. That's a different woman than the 19-year-old bride. who walked in aisle and got married as a literal teenager. That's a different woman. So what does she want to do?

Starting point is 00:05:04 What does she want to own? What does she want to work on? And thank God we got to that part of the story too, right? We either get to go through it, eyes wide open, facing it clearly, or we will bury that alive, and it will come out later. It will come out on the rest of our relationships. It will come out on our health. feel it now or feel it later, but if we don't, if we decide to skip the hard work too soon,

Starting point is 00:05:31 we'll end up paying for it. Were you ever tempted to stay in the marriage and, and hide it? That's a great question. This is so hard to say. There were so many parts of our marriage that had left us both lonely, disconnected, functioning as roommates. I remember we were on a phone call. And I essentially asked him, are we going to try?

Starting point is 00:06:11 Are we going to try here? And I was with my sons. And he said, trying, requires certain feelings to be there and they're not. And I went, okay, that was it. You know, you've got to save a marriage, you have to want to. Those were some of the earliest days when I learned to hate my body and to fear it and to wage war against it and to imagine somehow that it is my enemy.

Starting point is 00:06:53 And I carried that sexual shame with me into my marriage, for sure. You're also told, don't be slutty and have sex. But then when you finally get married and have sex, be awesome at it. Be unhindered, right? Be like a vixen. Give it up. Anytime the husband wants it. What's your advice for the person listening who's like,

Starting point is 00:07:19 I don't want to disappoint my parents, but this does not feel right to me. don't want to duplicate the way I was raised. It broke my heart. I could cry right now just thinking about it. Coming up in this incredible episode. Are you ready? I haven't talked about this yet. So I'm glad it's with you.

Starting point is 00:07:37 Get ready to ignite your own knowing and journey to freedom, faith, self-love, and ultimate liberation with our incredible guest and friend, Jen Hatmaker. Jen is an author, podcaster, speaker, advocate, educator, mother, and amazing friend to millions. From the power of her written word across 14 books, including four New York Times bestsellers, to speaking on stages, leading her own courses and book club communities and interviewing countless visionaries on her award-winning for the love podcast. Jen has an undeniable gift for reaching the hearts and minds of her community. She's also a mom to five amazing kids, and her brand new book, Awake, a memoir, is absolutely incredible, and I do not say that lightly.

Starting point is 00:08:26 I couldn't put it down. A brutally honest, funny, and revealing memoir about the traumatic end of her 26-year-long marriage and the end of life as she knew it. In the months that followed, she went from being a shiny, funny, popular leader to a divorced wreck, as she would say, on antidepressants and anti-examined. meds, parenting five kids alone with no clue about her own bank accounts. Having led millions of women for over a decade, urging them to embrace authenticity, find radical agency, and create healthy relationships, this seemed to Jen like nothing less than total failure. You begin the

Starting point is 00:09:05 book, rooting for Jen, and you end it to finding that passion to root for yourself. Jen speaks to your soul through her own story that somehow feels exactly like your own, awake is truly a permission slip to embrace your own truth, love who you are, ignite your own knowing and journey to freedom, faith, self-love, and ultimate liberation. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kernlema Show podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. And can you take two seconds and please hit the subscribe or follow button on the app that you're listening or watching on. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:09:48 It truly means the world to me. And you can get inspiration right into your inbox from me for free. Just join my newsletter community at jamiekernlima.com. Also, this incredible podcast episode today, it's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person that you know who might need some inspiration today. Or perhaps a boost in their self-belief because what you're about to be. to hear can truly impact mine, yours, and their lives too. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

Starting point is 00:10:20 Oprah, how have you defied the odds? Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation. When you listen, it feels like a hug, but your brain and your spirit and your heart is like, wow. Melinda French, the Gates. When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her. I could see the light around her. She's infused with light.

Starting point is 00:10:47 Imagine overcoming self-doubt, learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern-Lima show. Jamie Kern-Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kurn Lema in their life. Jamie Kearn-Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern-Lima. Jen Hatmaker, welcome to the Jamie Kern-Lean-Lima show. Oh, that was so nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being my friend.

Starting point is 00:11:23 Thank you for having me here. I'm just delighted. I'm so grateful you're here. And I know this is the first time you're talking about awake and your story that you share. Right. I told you like this is, it's early enough that I just haven't. talked about it yet. I've written a whole book sharing things with the community that I have never even set out loud. So I am unpracticed at telling this story with my mouth, which is why I'm really

Starting point is 00:12:00 glad to be here with you. I'm so happy to be sitting with a friend and in a way, in a place that I feel okay we're just two women we've both been through a lot we care about each other this is the perfect place to sort of launch it out here so you know every one of us can relate to someone blindsiding us or someone you know betraying our trust or pulling the rug out from underneath us and those moments can change everything, literally everything in our lives. You open your brand new book awake with these first three sentences. At 2.30 a.m. on July 11th, 2020, out of a.m., I hear five whispered words not meant for me. I just can't quit you. My husband of 26 years is voice texting his girlfriend next to me.

Starting point is 00:13:05 me in our bed. It is the end of my life as I know it. We start in the ER. I, it took me years to write this story. Obviously, it's located primarily in 2020 and 2021, but I needed to live at first. I needed to heal. I wanted to definitely write from a scar, not a wound. And so, So I decided, though, to take my reader right immediately with me to the worst moment of my life. Let's just start there. I'm not going to ease in. Let's not, this is who I am. This is what my marriage has been like.

Starting point is 00:13:51 I'm just, let's just start at just being in critical condition. And then we'll go from there. It was devastating. I was married for 26 years and I was married to a pastor and together we had sort of built this whole life that very much included marriage and family and the shared value of what that meant and what we meant to each other. And so when I tell you, this will remain one of the most shocking things that has ever happened to me. Like it wasn't the kind of thing where I thought, we're creeping up on something that I know. Or we've been having hard conversations, you know, that we're sort of coming to some sort of inevitable conclusion together. It was more like you go to bed with one kind of life and you wake up with another.

Starting point is 00:14:58 And so just like that, everything that I knew to be true about my life was over. What happened in that moment? If you wake up, you hear that. It was chaos. Some of those details of that night, I kind of kept behind the firewall a little bit, but it was four hours of chaos. And he was eventually not engaged with me anymore, passed out, passed out. And I decided to figure out what the hell was going on. So I spent a couple of hours on his laptop while he's passed out in the middle of the night.

Starting point is 00:15:54 and it was becoming immediately clear, oh, he has a whole different life. And I am a fool. And it was so stunning and shocking and disassociated. I almost felt disassociated. In those hours, I couldn't even cry. I couldn't even, I was just in full shock thinking, this cannot be true. And so I woke him up at 6.30 in the morning. I had digested all I could handle by myself.

Starting point is 00:16:36 And I said, I need the full truth, all of it. I don't, don't, we're not going to waste one second in denial. I need the full truth. And he said, I'm not ready. And I said, okay, pack your shit and get out. and that was the last night he ever spent the night at the house. So it was scorched earth. We did not ease into a change.

Starting point is 00:17:03 We did not build some sort of off-ramp to make it all a little bit more palatable. We have five kids. Four of them were upstairs sleeping that night. And it was just the whole thing burned to the ground in one fell swoop. I'll never forget it. And this is so many parts of your life, right? Can you share what you two had built together? God.

Starting point is 00:17:32 Professionally, how public, so many people, you're both public figures in different ways and met when you were a baby. I mean, you're young. A baby. Yeah. Oh, boy. I was a 19-year-old bride, so let that sink in.

Starting point is 00:17:52 geez um we met in college i was freshman and so i had really never had a single adult moment without him i didn't have an adult moment when i first met him i was a teenager so we had we grew up together and we had three kids like way that you have them, like out of your body. And then we adopted our youngest two. So we had built our family. We had expanded our family. And then we'd been in ministry, our whole adult lives. Well, him particularly, that was his full-time work, which meant that was my second job. And then I began to build my own career once I was in my 30s. But both of them were centered in faith spaces. And so we started a church. He was the lead pastor. I also preached a lot. And

Starting point is 00:18:59 both of us for a decade or more were pretty involved and invested in sort of the strange subculture of church leadership. It's a thing. It's out there. And so yeah, we had literally and figuratively put ourselves on a stage. And not just a stage, but a stage of leadership, of spiritual leadership. Not that we ever meant to say, here's our family, we're a prototype. But when you're kind of so public, when you're so forward-facing like that, the family is a part of the deal. So everybody knows our kids, they knew our adoption story.

Starting point is 00:19:49 that was also really public. And so to topple from that mountain left us all so injured. And I said in the book, it's so interesting because I think so many of us can look backward after something has collapsed, something precious. something important and go, if I am being honest, there were signs that I ignored. Of course, I ignored. I didn't want them. Like I wrote, I wanted the story of our marriage, not our actual marriage. And so thus began an absolute slog up a whole new mountain that I never thought I was going to have to climb. And that is the story of a wake.

Starting point is 00:20:52 Ooh. Yeah. Wanting the idea of a marriage versus what the marriage actually is. I think so many people can relate in all different ways, right? Some of us want this idea of a friendship. But we really don't want to. I actually have a couple friendships in my life right now. I keep holding on hope because I love the idea of them. I get it. And there's red flags. And I think that it's in so many different ways people have had that experience. And just to kind of put into context, one thing you said to you is, you know, just for anyone maybe not familiar with that world, I think you wrote in a wake that when you're a pastor's wife, most churches or most, that they, it's a two for one. That's right. You're now also, you're now also in ministry and

Starting point is 00:21:46 unpaid. And it's a full-time thing. And so many people I just think realizing it or not look up to their pastors and seek them for guidance. Sure. And you're on a pedestal in many ways. And, you know, having five kids, being 26 years into your marriage, everything on the outside looked so perfect it looks so beautiful it did and oh gosh once i i jumping ahead just of hair there was a there's a moment when your life implodes like that where you did not choose it right somebody else's choices just absolutely impact you and such a way that a thousand things shatter. There's a, there's a, there's a season after that, which it's just, it's just chaos. All it is, all it is, it's not even recovery yet. It's just

Starting point is 00:22:55 reeling. It's grief. It is shock. It is that, that part of the story, I can feel it in my bone still. The panic, the fear, the humiliation of it all. That happens. And there's no way through it, but through it. That's it. Believe me, if there was a rat around, I would have found it. I tried. There isn't. You just have to grieve. But there's a moment on the other side of that, not necessarily too far down the road where you go, okay, I can either decide to be the victim of this shitty story forever. Somebody handed to me and I'm stuck with it and now I'm just going to have half a life, I guess, for the second half and I'll just piecemeal it together and try to just band-aid the rest of the story. I can do that. I can choose that. Or I can decide to

Starting point is 00:24:04 I can decide to look at my own patterns, I can look at my own behaviors, I can look at my own complicity, I can look at the places where I contributed to the weaklings in the marriage. I can look at a lot of my codependent habits, which helped build a whole house of cards. and then that's what i do with that is up to me so i can i can i can do nothing i can do nothing because frankly when i when you have a story like mine i learned really early on everybody virtually everybody was not just willing to but absolutely handing me absolution you are innocent this was done to you you have been wronged um this was a betrayal all true. That's all true. I'm not saying that that's not true. But I could have sunk into that

Starting point is 00:25:08 version of it forever. But there was much more to the story. Thank God, where I went. We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going. to remember that they matter and to feel less alone, more enough, more connected, and more worthy. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams, you stay stuck at the level of your self-worth.

Starting point is 00:25:47 When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back. Build unshakable self-love. Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness.

Starting point is 00:26:27 Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step in to the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at Worthy book.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially

Starting point is 00:27:21 if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:28:08 Do you struggle with negative self-talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life. It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love.

Starting point is 00:28:45 And it's a free how-to guide to overcome that negative self-talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self-love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self-sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life when filled with self-love, resilience, and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamie kurnlema.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together.

Starting point is 00:29:36 When you have a story like mine, I learned really early on, everybody, virtually everybody was not just willing to, but absolutely handing me absolution. You are innocent. This was done to you. You have been wrong. This was in portrayal, all true. That's all true. I'm not saying that that's not true. But I could have sunk into that version of it forever. But there was much more to the story, thank God, where I went, what do I want to build in the second half of my life? What do I want to take with me? And what do I want to leave behind because I was 46 years old when that happened. That's a different woman than the 19 year old bride who walked an aisle and got married as a literal teenager. That's a different

Starting point is 00:30:32 woman. So what does she want to do? What does she want to own? What does she want to work on? And thank God we got to that part of the story too. What you just said is so powerful because a lot of people um it's it's easier in some ways to be like this happened to me and in many ways i'm sure it's easier to also stay in it totally anger and hurt is pretty awesome fuel it has a pretty decent ROI like it feels good it feels good to be pissed it feels good um to be furious it there's something about that that is comforting because it it keeps the focus out i get to still keep looking out here what did you do what was your problem um how did you harm me um how did you let us all down and so there's something fun about that for a while but eventually that that

Starting point is 00:31:46 leaves half of the equation out. And so I'm not even suggesting that there isn't a place for anger and sorrow. There is. That is a normal way to feel. We should feel it. And if we don't feel it now, we'll feel it later. So pick, pick, right? We either get to go through it, eyes wide open, facing it clearly, clear-headed, clear-minded, or we will bury that alive, and it will come out later. It will come out on the rest of our relationships. It will come out on our health. It will come out sideways. And so feel it now or feel it later, but if we don't, if we decide to skip the hard work too soon, we'll end up paying for it. Were you ever tempted, especially given how much you had built together, how many overlapping

Starting point is 00:32:48 circles are in your lives? Some people would say the kids, right? There's all these things where you ever tempted to stay in the marriage and hide it from the kids or decide it never happened or stay anyway? That's a great question. it's interesting because in those earliest days of just mayhem just absolute mayhem and it was COVID it was July of 2020 so we were isolated we were hurting collectively we were cut off from our sources of community and comfort so we were already pretty tender and bruised. And so I can absolutely understand the instinct to go,

Starting point is 00:33:49 what if we just patched this up? What if we patched it up enough so that it could function okay, put in a drawer and shut it? I get the impulse. But it was interesting, it's certainly interesting in hindsight. Because at the time,

Starting point is 00:34:09 I was just so taken out of the portion of my brain that does that emotional maneuvering, that figures out how to shape shift, that is thinking about damage control, that is thinking about what does this mean for our work, those chambers are usually fairly activated in my brain. I was so traumatized and so brokenhearted, I had access to none of that. So it's interesting to look back at what I did and how I responded instinctively. That's all I had. I wasn't being strategic. I could not have located strategy on the side of a barn, right? So instinctively, I knew this marriage is over. And this is so hard to say, and I talk about this in a wake, but I had to get to it.

Starting point is 00:35:19 It took me a while to say it, to admit it, and then it took me a little bit longer to analyze it. But I didn't want to stay married. When your spouse creates such an alternative life for himself, and abandons everything, his own character and will and story and marriage and family and place in the world. There are red flags. Something is wrong. That is not the product of a healthy functioning marriage. And so there were so many parts of our marriage that had left us both lonely, disconnected.

Starting point is 00:36:06 functioning as roommates. And so my instinct said, I didn't want any of this. I don't want this how this went down. This is the most disastrous, catastrophic, painful thing I've ever experienced. And at the same time, I also didn't want to stay. And you knew that. I knew it. I knew it pretty early on. I remember we were on a phone call and I essentially asked him, are we going to try, are we going to try here? And I was with my sons. And he said, some trying requires certain feelings to be there and they're not. And I went, okay. That was it. You know, you've, you've got to save a marriage. You have to want to. And, but again, I can look back with clear eyes at my response, still not being strategic yet, but my response was like, okay, it wasn't,

Starting point is 00:37:24 no, we must. No, I want to. How can I convince you? What can we do? Like, let's go back to marriage counseling. Let's hear each other out. Let's see each other again. That was not my response at all. My response was, okay. And so something in me was leading me to what was the right path. And I didn't know what else to do except follow it. When you talk about that period of not just, of being so aware of, okay, not just this happened to me, which it did, but also thinking about who you are and what you want and all those things. And, you know, in a wake, you share for the first time everything that happened, not only with, you know, with the end of your marriage, with, with, it's really in so many ways

Starting point is 00:38:25 a coming of age story. I think so many women are going to connect with in so many different ways. I know I said this earlier, but it's almost like when you read your book, and this is such a gift you have, Jen. I know you know this, but millions of people agree, you are one of the most gifted writers and communicators hands down. And as a person reading this, whether I knew you or not, I just not only am just instantly like I couldn't put the book down and also I think everyone listening and watching right now is going to feel like it's their story. They're going to see the things they've gone through and the way that you tap into the depths of the experience and the depths of the emotion and the depths of all of it.

Starting point is 00:39:16 I mean, you're just as a reader, you're immersed in it. And I feel like in different ways people will go through. through their own journey with you and have a lot of questions they might ask themselves. And I know, you know, sort of a zoomed-out view also in a wake, there's some themes in there as well that you talk about that I think a lot of people might reflect on in their own life from patriarchy, religious dogma, gender roles, all the ceilings men created for women. Can you talk about that and about, you? your realization and just all of it.

Starting point is 00:39:56 Yeah. Thank you, first of all for saying that. That was really kind. Awake is kind kind of on the micro level. It is the story of the loss of my marriage and the recovery and rebuilding process, but larger. It is an examination of what built that house. that was so easily shaken down to rubble stone by stone what built the house and so

Starting point is 00:40:32 it is a deeper look at all of those things what what compelled a 19 year old girl to get married what sort of religious environment suggested that men had all the authority and our one path as women was to be their helpers, their subordinates, and their followers, essentially. What did it mean to grow up in a culture that, at least for our age, absolutely told us we should hate our bodies, that everything about them was wrong. Absolutely everything about them was wrong. What did it mean for me to grow up in a sub-cold culture that handed us such a such sexual shame at our earliest moment, just as we are coming into adolescence, as we are learning about our own sexuality, about that the story that I got

Starting point is 00:41:39 was sex and sexual desire. Everything is wrong about that. Everything is bad about it. It is dirty. You're dirty for having it. That's all reserved for marriage. And what did that create inside my psyche. And those stories are common. So you don't have to have experienced a divorce to see yourself in these pages. And I, these are conversations that matter to women. And I've written this so differently, God, as we sit here, you know, it's not out yet as we're recording this and I'm just thinking, how is it going to go? Because my history as a writer is that I've taken an idea, whatever the idea is for that particular book. I have spent billions of hours thinking about it, reading about it, parsing it out, processing into my own brain. I write it all

Starting point is 00:42:42 down and then I hand it to the reader and I'm like, this is what we think. Here's our conclusions. I've done all of our work for us. No need for you. you to do just sit there and read it i've got it all sorted out for us here it is on a silver platter very prescriptive this is the opposite of that i prescribe nothing in fact there's no chapters it's all told in vignette everything's a little memory a little moment going back to when i was 12 or younger just told in real time and i don't i don't do anything but lay it on the page and then it's up to the reader to figure out what they want to take from that or what conclusion they want to draw from that or what sort of house they see being formed from all

Starting point is 00:43:28 those little pieces and so I look so forward to finding out how this matters to other people and what they see in it and where they go same I was over here but I had that same experience or I had that same feeling or I had that same loss. And, you know, as you know, too, you write a book and it's the one thing. And then you hand it to your readers and it becomes something entirely new. And so I'm looking forward to see what the readers make of it. You know, you talk about this idea. I would love for you to share because I think when you talk about how did this,

Starting point is 00:44:15 house of cards get built what led me to hear i think every one of us can relate like huh how did i pick this as my this person as my partner how did i end up in this type of a marriage or this type of a friendship circle or this type of a profession whatever it might be and um i love that you really peel back the layers and and you really go there on a lot of things can you share about your youth pastor's analogy of plucking the petals off a rose when you were a little girl. Yeah. We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know

Starting point is 00:44:57 who this could inspire because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going, to remember that they matter and to feel less alone, more enough, more connected, and more worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl.

Starting point is 00:46:05 subscribe at jamie kurnlema.com or in the link in the show notes i am so excited for this book you know why because it's going to save so many people it's going to save you were thee your new beautiful book worthy get this book this book this book i'm telling you it's a book that can change anybody's life who picks it up anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough didn't measure of something's missing in your life, I have to tell you. It's powerful. It's happening. It's worthy.

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Starting point is 00:47:30 It's time to step into all of who you are you are and into the person you were born to be. And it's time to believe that you are worthy of it. Because in life, we don't become what we want. We become what we believe we're worthy of. Join the Worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of Worthy, anywhere books are sold, then head to Worthybook.com now for free gifts, including my five-part course on becoming unstoppable, and my 95-page worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the

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Starting point is 00:48:50 And now more of this incredible conversation together. I love that you really peel back the layers and you really go there on a lot of things. Can you share about your youth pastor's analogy of plucking the petals off a rose when you were a little girl? Yeah. This is the origin story of the cover design.

Starting point is 00:49:20 I guess I was probably, let me do the math, eighth grade, maybe, eighth or ninth grade. And, geez, kids who grow up in sort of evangelical subculture in my age group might remember this. That was the 80s and the 90s were kind of the heart of purity culture, which is sort of the catch-all phrase, which was abstinence only. sex education. I mean, sex education, I've got to put in quotes, because there really was little education. It was really just more like, don't do it. And here's an entire shame-based curriculum to keep you away from it. So there was this really popular curriculum at the time called True Love Waits. And it was in every church I knew. And so we signed up, and it's,

Starting point is 00:50:20 whatever it is, it's an eight or a 12-week course. And we're going to go through it systematically and the deacons and their wives or our teachers or whatever and so it is the beginning of true love waits it's like the opening session before we split out to guys and girls of course and our youth pastor comes up to the front of the room and god I can see it in my brain like it was yesterday and we're all there and we're already nervous we're about to have 12 weeks of sex talks with the deacons like Like, it's all ready. Like, geez, why did my mom sign me up for this?

Starting point is 00:50:58 So we're already just kind of anxious in our little folding chairs. And he comes to the front of the room and he's got like a rose. And it's in full bloom, like really pretty. And he holds up and he's like, isn't this beautiful? And we're like, shh, it is beautiful. Check. And he says, you know, we're all in the room. The boys and the girls.

Starting point is 00:51:21 And he says, girls. this rose is just like you you are like this you are a gift you are pure and pristine when you present yourself clean to your husband on your wedding night and then he goes but when you start giving your bodies away to your little boyfriends you start ruining the gift and he starts going through this litany of things and with every thing he would say he'd pluck a pedal off you take off your clothes pluck you engage in sexual acts pluck um you have intercourse pluck um you let your boyfriend touch your body puck it's so shocking and embarrassing and stunning and he's going through it all still just speaking of the girls until

Starting point is 00:52:23 all the petals are gone. They're just on the filthy floor and he's holding this. And he goes until all you have to offer your husband on your wedding night is this. And he holds out like the dead empty stick. And I remember sitting there going, what did I just hear? And what about the boys? Like, are they also a flower gradually losing their bloom? Because according to the story, Some boys plucked those petals. So is sexual purity just the girls' requirement and responsibility? That was the first time in my life. I had been told by a spiritual authority that I was a real problem, that my body was a problem,

Starting point is 00:53:15 that I was in charge of not just my own sexual purity, but the boys. and any sexual deviance that came into play, if it was mine, it was my fault. And if it was theirs, it was my fault. And that seared into my psyche. I'm 50 years old and I'm still talking about it. The sense that my body is defective. It needs to be policed.

Starting point is 00:53:49 it is the source of ruined marriages and I alone am responsible for keeping us all out of the bed before we get married and so when you're handed a story like that that early it forms a worldview that is really hard to reverse and those were some of the earliest days when I learned to hate my body and to fear it and to wage war against it and to imagine somehow that it is my enemy and I'm not the only one. That story was handed to so many of us at our age at such a pivotal time and I carried that sexual shame with me into my marriage for sure. And how did it impact that? And how does, and where are you out with that now?

Starting point is 00:54:53 Oh, geez. We were children who got married. And so, and both of us had sort of come in having sullied the story already, right? So we already walked into our relationship full of guilt, full of shame, full of secrets. Because that's not something we were allowed to talk. about or to be honest about. And so you just bury that internally and it's so corrosive. And then that shame is, it becomes the pool that you are swimming in. And so I entered young adulthood ashamed, just period, in general. That was, that was my homeostasis. And so obviously

Starting point is 00:55:41 when you're sort of taught that way, it certainly affected. our marriage. When you are told over and over and over that sexual feelings, desires, behaviors, explorations, all of it are so dirty and that you are dirty for having them, for thinking them or for doing them, you believe it. You just believe it. And so I walked that sense of such conflict into my marriage. Because of course, in that camp, then you're also told, don't be slutty and have sex, but then when you finally get married and have sex, be awesome at it. Be unhindered, right? Be like a vixen. Give it up. Anytime the husband wants it and be kind of wild about it. That whiplash is the source of a lot of misery

Starting point is 00:56:42 for a lot of young marriages that came out of that environment. And it was for us, too. And so having to sort of overcome what we'd been handed and try to find a different story of like sexual connection and flourishing and joy. God, it was hard. And it took so long and I'm not sure we ever fully reversed it. So I am committed. You know, I have a bunch of kids and they're 19 to 27. So we're in all the young adult years.

Starting point is 00:57:21 And I mean, I said early on, not on my watch. These kids are not going to be handed that story. They are not going to, I am not going to teach them to be at war with their bodies and their normal desires a day in their lives. And so I feel hopeful that this next generation is already being raised in a little bit more of a healthy sexual ethos than a lot of us were. but for me and for a lot of people my age it's been the work of my adult life to change that narrative would you have changed it if you weren't blindsided and everything and the whole house

Starting point is 00:57:59 of cards fell or do you think you'd still be in that same spot right now i've thought about this a lot because the fast forward version is i am so i'm so i'm so so grateful for my life right now. I am stunned at the joy that I have discovered. And so I've thought a lot about this, because I did not know I could have, I didn't know about this. I didn't know I was going to be happy again. I did not know. I could write my own way out. I did not know that I had all this agency to build a life I wanted. I didn't know that back then. I, think Jamie when I think about 2020 gin and that's the one you're asking about I think I would have stayed I think I would have stayed lonely we were not having sex anymore I think I would

Starting point is 00:58:58 have stayed disconnected I think I would have stayed disappointed because going back to what I said earlier I kind of wanted the story of my life not my actual life and the story of my life included a long marriage. It included our kids growing up and getting married and coming home to us, their parents who will always be there. It included us rocking our grandbabies on a porch. I had a whole thing. I'd written it. It was beautiful. It was Hollywood worthy. I saw it. I saw it in my parents. I saw it in my in-laws. Both of them are north of 50 years married both. And so I had written this beautiful script for us all. And I was committed to the bit. even though that wasn't what I was experiencing.

Starting point is 00:59:46 And so I think I would have stayed. You know, it's conjecture at this point. Would I have gotten lonely enough? You know, we still had all the kids in the house back then. And so we had the chaos of busyness and family as a distractor. Maybe they'd have moved out. And I would have figured out, like, what do we have left? Maybe.

Starting point is 01:00:11 I just don't know. But I will tell you, I, back then, I was, I would not have made that choice 100%. You know, you shared how loving and amazing your family and upbringing are. And I think for everyone listening, there's a lot of people who would describe their parents or the way they were raised as like just loving. Like they feel so blessed and all of that. And at the same time are now an adult. now maybe middle age now maybe at some point in their life where they're like i do not align with some of the ways i was raised certainly how have you you know being raised around such love

Starting point is 01:01:00 such great intention how have you navigated that making different decisions for your kids and and also just what's your advice for the person listening who's like i don't want to disappoint my parents, but this does not feel right to me, and I don't want to duplicate the way I was raised. Such a conundrum. I have felt that tension broadly for the last 15 years as an adult and as someone who, particularly back then, was in spiritual leadership. Yeah. And I realized, I don't believe all, there's some things I don't believe. anymore. I have some pretty strong departures from some of the things that I was handed from a faith perspective as a kid, as a young adult that I don't align with anymore and I don't agree

Starting point is 01:01:54 with anymore. And so to some degree, the road has been forking for me for 15 years. And I have felt some anxiety around that because, and then particularly when I was writing awake, and I am literally going after some of those patriarchal religious systems, particularly my exact environment. I'm not even speaking of it theoretically, you know, or from a really wide view. I was like at my church in eighth grade, you know, at my church in 10th grade. So, I mean, I drilled in to my very specific and individual story, which is the one my parents put me in. And so I felt those tremors of, there's one thing that I wrote in there where I was like, just kind of speaking to the reader where I said, it feels important to me to examine these systems that have created such a breeding ground for abuse and loss of personhood and loss of agency. and the subjugation of women and that feels so important for me to turn a critical eye

Starting point is 01:03:16 on what I see as failing systems that certainly fail not just girls but boys without disparaging the individual people inside those systems how tricky what a tricky needle to thread because it's important that we look at the way these are operating and they're operating as designed. By the way, we're not misinterpreting the data. Like systems that are meant to be hierarchical and they work as created. So laying an axe at the root of that tree is important. But what about the people? What about the people? Because there's beautiful people inside horrible systems. And so I have always found that tension. to be one that I have to figure out how to manage.

Starting point is 01:04:12 And the best that I could do, God, the best that I could do in this book was just tell the truth. And so I did. I told the truth about the individual moments inside those systems, what it built in me, what it broke in me, what it created in me. And I also tell the truth about my parents and the beautiful, home they built for us and the way that they loved us so completely and the moments where they broke from those systems and wrote a new chapter for me that I did not know existed and and opened up doors for me that I did not know I was allowed to walk through and so two things can be true at

Starting point is 01:04:56 once and I find the tension hard to manage and yet here we are yeah here we are and so I give my parents so much credit for allowing us all, not just me, but my siblings, I'm the oldest before, to deeply evolve as people of faith, as just adults who grow up without constantly feeling triggered and threatened. They've never done it. They've never brought it to my door and said, this is making us feel bad because we're the ones who raised you like this. Or you don't go to the church anymore that we raised you in. Not one time, have they ever said it to a single one of us. And so that's a credit to their goodness and maturity and I think character. With everything leading up to the end of your 26-year marriage, and then also

Starting point is 01:06:01 from that day that was the last day he was in the house forward when it all happened and as it continued to unfold what impact did it have on your sense of worthiness oh my god yeah immediately it sunk me to the bottom of the ocean in that particular kind of betrayal the very first thoughts that just spike the very first feelings are oh I'm not pretty enough I'm not young enough I'm not sexual enough you know when your husband has chosen another person um i am not lovable something about me isn't even valuable valuable enough to be faithful to like i i had no value to him i i meant i'm in nothing and that that's how little i matter that is how little i matter and all of those feelings just it's like a tsunami

Starting point is 01:07:25 like a tidal wave of of humiliation and a breaking of worth. And so that is one of the biggest threads that I had to decide to do my work around. We know that's not true. I know it. I've been saying that. I say that to other women. I've been saying that for 20 years. I know that.

Starting point is 01:07:53 but when you experience that I could not get that knowledge to sink I could not access it I knew it like intellectually I could mean it for you and I could instruct all these women that I lead but I could not access that truth and so I

Starting point is 01:08:15 felt so sad about myself for a while not sorry for myself, sat about myself, that I was so unloved. The unloved part was the worst part for me. It was not the sexual violation. It was, it wasn't even like the deception of it all, which had gone on for a really long time. It was the unloved part. It broke my heart. I could cry right now just thinking about it.

Starting point is 01:08:51 And so, you know, you steer, if you care about recovery, if you care about rebuilding, you steer into the sharpest curve on the road. And for me, that was it. And I went, I'm going to have to deal with this. I'm going to have to face this, figure out what I really believe about myself, figure out what's true, and figure out how to believe it. and that it seems crazy, but that is possible. You can be convinced that you are unloved and unworthy and convinced and you can find your way

Starting point is 01:09:39 out of that story. And so that for me was probably the heaviest lift I had. was going okay because also it forced me to examine where I get all my value you know I get you and I are public so people are real quick to assign value to us one way another negatively or positively but even positively so I got all these dopamine hits from all these from the people and the the readers and the podcast listeners and the whatever and and so I had to go wait a minute I'm going to have to learn how to not, if I'm going to have to learn how to not let all this negative input into my life

Starting point is 01:10:29 that says you are not valuable. If I'm going to believe all the hype, then I'm going to have to believe all the bad stuff too. So I think I'm going to have to take this out of the hands of other people. And this is going to have to be an inside job, one way or another. I'm going to have to figure out my own worth, my own value. Who does God say I am? Why am I precious? Why do I matter? What is true about me? What is always true about me? No matter what, anybody else says or does, period. That has no bearing on what is

Starting point is 01:11:04 true in my core. So even though I'd preach that for a couple of decades, I finally got to figure it out. I finally had to do that work my own self. It's easy to preach that when everybody else loves you. That was a real easy message for me to say for a really long time. I had a husband who loved me, friends who loved me, a community who half loved me at least. And so then that was really easy to say. When I lost the one who was supposed to love me the most, I went, okay, I'm going to rewrite this story. It's possible.

Starting point is 01:11:39 What is true about you? Boy, what's true about me is that. that I matter because I'm a human and I have mattered since I was born and I don't earn any of it and I'm loved and God loves me and I have value and none of that is for what I do. None of it and I am a doer. I am such a doer. I am such a doer. I I'm an enneagram three. I have forever received value from external sources. And so I've hustled for it my whole life.

Starting point is 01:12:28 And it works. That is rewarded. The world loves it. The world loves a doer. Yeah. And I have been rewarded my whole adult life for it. And so, but when I lost so much, I lost marriage, I lost the institution of church. So those were my two best.

Starting point is 01:12:46 institutions and they both collapsed. And so I lost all my gold stars. And then I had to figure out, is this still true? And it's so crazy that we have value intrinsically. We are worthy. Everybody is. Everybody is. Not just me. And so tapping into that has been such a source of strength for me, which put me, it gave me agency back over my own story. And I'll be so, I'm so grateful for that work. I mean, I hated how I had to get to it, but I'm so grateful that I did. How did everything that started that day in bed forward? How did that impact your kids?

Starting point is 01:13:37 Oh, boy. At the time, we had, two in high school one had just graduated from high school one in college and one had just graduated from college so that was our that was this so this is not the same thing

Starting point is 01:13:56 is when you have a first grader that rightly should be shielded from the story and my kids were older and there's no smoothing over a story for teenagers and young adults when a dad goes to bed on a normal night and has gone the next morning. You don't get to polish that up. There's no shiny version of that.

Starting point is 01:14:30 There's no way to soft sell that to a bunch of young adults and teens. They know every, they're smart too. When I tell you, there were signs. I'm not the only one. who saw those, right? Kids are not dumb. And so it's one of the hardest parts of the story for me, for sure, having to watch my kids suffer and grieve. And that loss is, in some ways, I'll never get over for them. So proud of them. They are They are brilliant young adults, and they dug deep, and they have recovered in so many ways that I'm so proud of. But that handed them a new story. And, you know, from a parent who had spent a lifetime saying, this is how we value women.

Starting point is 01:15:39 This is what faithfulness looks like. this is what integrity means, this is what character looks like in a real life. So when you've had a lifetime of instruction like that, and then it all just is like reduced to rubble overnight, that's hard. That's hard to process. And it was hard. It was hard for all of us. And we don't share custody and we never have. And so it was just them and me. And those, that first early year, just trying to keep our little heads above water. And I'm really proud of how hard they worked and how honest and how honest and true they stayed throughout their process.

Starting point is 01:16:24 My instinct is to disassociate. My instinct is to shine it up. My instinct is to hustle it to resolution. That is both my natural impulse and my conditioning. kids are better than us in a lot of ways this next generation they don't do that they they stay in the story in an honest way and they say what they feel and they say what they mean and they say what they think and actually my daughter sidney taught me one of my best lessons i noticed early on in our recovery process everybody's in counseling you know of course i've got everybody just

Starting point is 01:17:10 farming it out to the counselors. And Sydney had come to me and she was in college at the time she was a junior in college with her grief, some version of it, some whatever was happening at the time. And I so, so wanted them not to feel all that. I so wanted us to be further down the road where this was, if not resolved, at least processed and less acute and less painful. And I remember saying something to her, like, this is codependent behavior, by the way. One of my most enormous lessons of this whole process was learning about my own codependency. But me being codependent with her was saying, making excuses for his behavior, trying to fix up the story a little bit.

Starting point is 01:18:03 Let's make this a little bit better. Let's put a little bow on it in a way that is a little bit more palatable for you. And then, of course, projecting. I'm projecting for the future I wanted, which was a mended relationship with the kids and their dad, which was something that wasn't so completely shattered, which is what we had at the time. And so I'm sort of, I'm diverting her this way, that way, hear this, but don't forget about this. And, you know, what will you want in five years? What a mess.

Starting point is 01:18:32 And I remember where I was standing in the living room when she said, mom, when you talk, when I come to you with my pain about this and this is how you respond to me, I feel so lonely. She's like, I feel like I'm the only one left back here in this like suffering. And you are not only ahead of me, you are dragging me through it. And I was like, oh my God. I took that to my counselor that week. And she said to me, Jen, because I'm like, I just don't want my kids to feel this pain. I just, I want to mend the family in such a way that they have something left. And she was like, you don't get to fix their story.

Starting point is 01:19:16 They're human, just like you. They're going to have pain and sorrow, just like you. You don't get to route them around a normal life. And she's like, your job right now particularly while they are in such pain is comfort over coaching. that's it and I was like damn it I love coaching coaching made me feel like I was in control of something it made me feel like I was tidying the thing up enough to get it where I wanted it to go but that's not true that's not even real that's not how life works and so I laid it down that day and said all right I'm not going to do this anymore and I didn't that was the last day

Starting point is 01:19:56 that I told any of my kids how to feel how to think or what to reach for if your kids could only if your kids could only remember one thing about the way that you love them through this what would you hope that it is this conversation with gen hatmaker so incredible we made it into more than one part and if you're ready to ignite your own knowing and journey toward freedom faith self-love and ultimate liberation even if it's for the first time ever or for the first time in a long time you are not going to want to miss this incredible part two of our conversation with Jen Hatmaker coming up in the next episode of the Jamie Kern-Lima Show. Remember this episode's not just for you and me. Please share it with every single person that you know because it can impact and change their life too. And if you love today's episode, please click on the follow or subscribe

Starting point is 01:20:54 button for the show on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value to your life, if you could please give it a rating or five-star review, I'd be so grateful. And again, please share it with everyone that you believe in. Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. You know, maybe someone you know is having a big change in their life or waking up to something new in their career or marriage or health. Please post this episode and share it with others online in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you,

Starting point is 01:21:32 so much for joining me before you go. I want to share some words with you that could it be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world, and it is an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Kernlema show. Here, I hope you'll come as you are. Heal where you need. Blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy. You are loved.

Starting point is 01:22:09 You are love. I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern-Lima Show. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. and that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you.

Starting point is 01:22:38 If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back. build unshakable self-love. Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your

Starting point is 01:23:17 greatness and step in to the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt. out an unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank-you bonus gifts for you at Worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious, and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me.

Starting point is 01:24:12 If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to Jamie Kernlema.com to make sure you're on the list, and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie. weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

The Jamie Kern Lima Show - Jen Hatmaker: How to embrace your truth, love who you are, realize your power & set yourself free, finally!

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