The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Clinical Psychologist on Setting Clear Boundaries ft. Dr. Henry Cloud

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

Most people think boundaries are about telling someone else what they can or can't do. They're not. Boundaries are about deciding what you'll do when someone crosses the line—and that changes everything. In this conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Henry Cloud, whose work on boundaries has helped millions of people navigate relationships, leadership, and life. We talk about the difference between hope and wishful thinking, the signs someone is genuinely willing to change, why so many difficult conversations fail before they even begin, and how to know when a relationship deserves another chance—or when it's time for a necessary ending. Check out all of Dr. Cloud’s books here - https://www.drcloud.com/books-index  Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Monarch Money. 50% off your first year at https://monarchmoney.com/jefferson David. Subscribe and save 10% on every order’ at https://davidprotein.com/jefferson  BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When does somebody know that they should say, you know what, this needs, this needs a boundary? You're wide with a system that from your spinal cord all the way through your gut, in your neurophysiology, the neurochemistry, all of that system, like a security alarm system, it's running 24-7 asking one question. Am I safe? That's what the human organism has got to know. all the time. I mean, you've been breathing for last. I didn't even know. Careless. You can trust it. You know, you don't have to watch your back. Yeah. But if you smelled a feeling, that system would kick in and say hit pause. So when is it time for a boundary? Your system is going to tell you this something doesn't feel

good here. They're violating your property, either your head, your heart, your mind, or your soul is getting a little bit, something doesn't feel right. Now, you may be crazy. Just because you're not paranoid, you know, sometimes we get scared when we shouldn't be. But a lot of times, we, all the times, we need to stop, pause, you're very good at this in helping people, you don't have to answer right now. Yeah. Boundaries are about differentiating yourself from the other, their self and other. And so people that are trying to control your manipulating,

they're trying to get to the steering wheel of your car. Somehow. Roll up the window, stay in your lane, take a minute. If you're hearing something from, it could be your feelings, it could be your gut, it could be what you think about what they said. There are a lot of different darnies.

But that's when to do it. Well, first, become self-aware. Oh. that would help yeah that would hope that would help and I love that you use your property like I think that well you're a lawyer yeah what where's the boundary or the property right to determine when the tree falls who's responsible for that exactly yeah you know what's what's the perimeter what's your what's your border and not only for land but also in terms of what they they call chattel like your your actual Those are my phone is my, your stuff, my clothes, my food, my family, my friends.

Okay, that's a good, that's perfect. You said, you know, when do you, well, your boundaries, your property line does two things. It keeps the good stuff in and so, and it keeps the bad stuff out. So I have a fence. Yeah. So what's the chattel, the good stuff? Your feelings, your attitudes, your behaviors, your choices, your limits, your values, your desire. your thoughts and the things you love.

So your boundaries are there to protect, and those can be your signals. If something feels right, or if somebody gets me behaving away or make a choice, or this really is not something my desire, or now that I'm screwing my thinking. Yeah. Which gas-lying does, among other things,

or guilt, manipulation. Yeah, or shame. I mean, like, I think makes me think of when you see your friend being nice to somebody else, you're like, hold it, that's my friend. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's easy because it's not just within your body. It also expands to those whom you love. They're now in my circle.

And so when you have that, it goes, okay, that's the push. But I love that you used the word. Well, who do you want to move into your neighborhood? Exactly. I'm like, what's your heart, mine, your gut, your center? I just feel something. And that's when your body goes. something is off and just the way that we breathe on our heartbeats that system of i need to feel safe

operates 24 27 even when you're asleep whatever is it you're hearing exactly you like perk up you know what what was that how did that and what's crazy is i didn't even think about this like you know when that's that creaky you know that one stare that always creaks or that that fan or that refrigerator noise? You've learned that's safe. But after that, you can go, no,

this is something, something's off here. And I mean, that's so good because take two different people. One of them, you know, you know,

they're kind of quirky. Sometimes they say stuff that, but you trust them and you know they're good. Sure. Somebody else can say the same thing. And your sense is no, when that person says that they're out to get something right when that person says that they're just not screwed up for him exactly you know who to you know when to open the door when you close it for

sure oh yeah I think there's there's a there's a lot there and we talked about in the timing when do you know you should do a boundary second I want to kind of move towards when you I know I frame boundaries and people frame it. In other words, the words to use because... Well, that's where, you know, I got to say, guys, I mean, you're really good in giving people need, I tell people all the time before a difficult conversation. If you're not good at this, other than watch Jefferson.

And you can watch Jefferson to do this. Sit down and get a script. Write it out. Because that's, you know, your language centers in your brain actually map a lot of behavior. And you should get a few of these lines like you get people and get a script. Secondly, if it's going to be tough, go roleplay it with someone. Get a friend to play that difficult, you know what. And so you can practice.

Yeah. And then you're going to be more equipped. And then I tell them to, you know, get a difficult conversation sandwich. before you talk to that person, meet with your shrink or your support friend or whatever, talk about what you said, know what you got to go out of there having said and what you don't want to say, go in there and do it and promise from your own column afterwards. It's amazing what that will do. I, when I think of, when somebody goes, how do I, you know, put a boundary in with their boss,

It always goes to, what do you asking? What are you wanting to do? Because a lot of the times they don't know that. Imagine asking that. It's the first question. What do you want? I didn't really think about that. You know, let me think.

Let's start there. Remember an Alice in Wonderland? Yeah. She comes to the fore in the road, Cheshire Katz sitting there. She goes, which way do I go? He goes, where are you trying to get to? She goes, I don't know. He says, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And then she says, well, I want to go somewhere. He said, oh, you will. Right. That's right. I want to go somewhere. And in a conversation, especially in significant relationships,

especially with a difficult person, it's so important to know what you want on your property, in your life. If you know what you want and you don't want deception, you don't want control, you don't want abandonment, when that shows up, it's a lot easier when you know what you want. And you've hit on a key point. You know, this attorney thing, you should have been a shrink. You know what? My dad was practically one because he taught me in what they call the Socratic Method. That was how they do that in law school teaching. The professor asked questions. That was the way I got taught lessons.

You know, I'd be upset with mom about something. He'd go, what do you think? She's thinking about this. Come on, that's not what I want to talk about. You know, I need to be angry. And that was never kind of his. Thankfully, that was never his lane. I want to give you my framework of I like, and I want you to poke holes in it of something you think I should add. There's a law school training. There we go. Tell me what I'm missing here. You know, it's just, it's just frightening to be in a room with an attorney.

You know, you know. You know. You know. You're right. I got to tell you a funny, a funny attorney story about boundaries with your kids. Oh, perfect. How old are your kids? Eight and six.

Okay. Perfect age. My girls are about that age. And they're coming to you and go, and Lucy, the little orange, say, Dad, Olivia didn't. You know, and then Olivia runs, no, she. And so they're getting this thing. And so one day I said, hey, girls, just stop. Let me explain this to you.

What you have here is called the dispute. Now, dispute is when you have an argument over something. And what people do with disputes is they take it to the judge and that's what you've done. So you brought this dispute. into daddy court. Daddy court. And I'm going to be the judge, all right? And what that means?

I'm going to listen to what you say. I'm going to listen to what you say. And I'm going to say, one of you's right and the other one's wrong. And I'll decide. They go, okay. I said, well, hang on. Daddy court's not free. There's court fees.

And they go, what do you mean? court fees. I said, well, I mean, court, you know, the judge has got to get paid. You're renting this courtroom. I mean, they said, how much of the court fees? I said, it depends on how long the trial goes, how complicated it is. And they said, well, what are I? I said, I don't know.

I mean, it could cost you your bike or your American girl doll. Yeah. And they literally looked at each other and said, that's okay. We'll figure it out. So that's good. A boundary will offload the responsibility to the only person who can control it. and then they have to own it. And there you go.

All of a sudden, they found something called self-control. All of a sudden, they said, you know what? I think we can figure this out. I think we can figure this out. Why am I taking responsibility for your argument? Yeah, no joke. All right, here's my, my method. That's what I like.

So, one, I tell people what I don't, what I don't accept or reject, or I don't permit into my border, right, my fence perimeter. Perfect. Two, as I tell them the condition, if this continues, if trespass continues, then three, is the consequence. Violators will be prosecuted. Exactly.

Exactly. And it is my, and that's where it comes down to it. You have to be willing to do it. Because we know what it's like when somebody goes, if you say that one more time, I swear, I'm going to. and they don't do it. And then the other person goes, well, I got you then. It's not a boundary.

It's a nagging. Oh, yeah. That's exactly right. So it could be, I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to speak to me disrespectfully. Yeah. This is the end of the conversation of like putting that in a box. Perfect.

Okay. It has now been Henry Cloud, Dr. Cloud approved. So this is what I'm going to put right underneath it. Let me dissect something really important here that you're doing. What you did was, and this is where a lot of people, a lot of people say, well, I'm going to put a boundary on that person. There's no such thing. Oh, on that person. And they say it all the time.

You can't put a boundary on someone. You put boundaries on yourself. Yeah. Self-control. You cannot control another person. They can continue to be an idiot or scream or take heroin or whatever it is. And what you did was you said, basically without saying it, you said, you said, you can not control another person. said you can continue to disrespect me. I don't allow myself to engage with that. And if you do,

I will take control of myself and remove myself from this conversation. Now, you can stay here for three weeks talking to air. Yeah. I just won't be here. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, your, your mouth is really. Well, I think that's where, and I know you talk about this, of the you versus I, And where it's, you can't yell at me, which gives them all the power and, in fact, will only guarantee that they will continue. Oh, yes, I can't. Watch this. Watch this.

You think, you think this is yelling? You think, yeah, you know what I had to grow up with? You think this is yelling? I love these. Just keep going on. That kind of stuff, right? Shut up and I'll give you something to whine about it. Exactly.

Exactly. Versus the I don't respond to that volume. You know, that's, that to me, wants somebody. engages that kind of shift is exactly what you said it's a it's controlling what I'm gonna do and you're the only one you can control oh yeah this has got you've got to transfer the need to change the behavior see right now I'm telling the need for you to stop yelling mm-hmm but I can't control it so what I'm gonna do I'm gonna transfer the need to stop yelling to the only person who can stop yelling that's the magic

formula and then they can choose do they need their relationship or the time with you more than they need yelling or do they choose yelling it's up to them i feel like i am a luke skywalker talking to obi one of communication is what it feels like yeah i'm telling you no i feel like there's a term unconscious competent i mean you have been doing this so well you just know all the farmy list but you're not a clinical psychologist yeah but you're an attorney and attorney are the whole law is boundaries. You know, we're talking about it. Yeah, for good or for bad.

Yeah. And it can. Exactly. That's true. And in contract law, right. It's looking ahead at the relationship. Yes. Saying, this is what I want to happen.

Right. We had mutually agreed upon expectations. This is what I'm going to do. This is what you're going to do. Yep. And if one of us doesn't, here's what's going to happen. Yep. And I mean, every insurance contract is,

here's this and here's what we exclude and then they have exceptions to the exclusions and there's all it's all boundaries in some way or another i want to make sure that i people that are in relationships they don't even know what their own expectations are that's true until they're violated and what you said so important to in your life you've got to define these are the kind of people I want in my life. These are the kind of people I won't allow because it doesn't go well. And it's my job to enforce that. It's nobody else's. It's right. It's mine. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about David. There is no use and convenience if it does not make your life better. Well, when I am traveling a lot, or our families on the go, we want to make sure,

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that you feel as healthy, you know it's good, you know that it's top quality tier, look no farther than David. So head on over to davidprotein.com slash Jefferson. When you buy four cartons, you get the fifth free, and you can also use their store locator to find David protein at a store near you. And now let's keep going. Does one know when the end of a friendship relationship is not only advisable, but also necessary? I think the first sentence of the book, I put, your today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow, meaning what's going on right now may be incompatible. with the tomorrow you want to have, be that tomorrow or next week or six months from now or 20 years from now?

And what's going on right now? It is necessary for that to end. If you are going to have the tomorrow you want and not want to have this same conversation six months from now a year from. So back to you got to know what you want. And then these things happen. It happens all the time. One of the greatest human virtues is hope. Things aren't where they ought to be, but we hope they'll be different.

And what I talked about in the book is you've got to learn the difference between a wish and hope. A wish means I want them to be different. Hope is objective. Hope has grounding in sense. some reason to hope. And so what you've got to diagnose is when we come to this juncture where this is going on and do I need to end this or should I keep going?

You've got to, the worst thing you can do when you're down the wrong road is hope that it's going to turn into the right road. You are down the wrong road. Right. It is necessary to end that turnaround and go back to the beginning. But there is time to have hope. And what you've got to ask is, is there an objective reason why if I continue in this, it's going to be different?

And there are objective factors that you can look for that can tell you that. And if you don't see them, proceed at your own risk, which is what you guys put on signs on people's properties. There's alligators proceed at your own death. That's right. Exactly. And you've got to figure that out. I mean, just a few of them. I've got an actual list in there. But the first one is, is there an awareness and an ownership by the other person, an ownership of what they are doing is not okay?

That's key. First is ownership element. Ownership. If they are still excusing it, blaming you for it, blaming external factors, minimizing it, all the things that the classic narcissist does. you know, the denial, the minimizing, the excusing, the blaming. If you see that, you are not at the point to have hope. Because they're the only ones that can change. You can't change a problem if you don't have one.

And if they still think they don't have a problem, get ready for tomorrow or look like today. Exactly. So if they own it and they understand empathically, you know, trust is in part based on the other person understanding the effect of what they do has on us, what we need, what hurts us. And if they understand it and can get out of their self-centeredness into an awareness of, I can see this really hurt you. The acknowledgement, the affirmation. And see it and empathize with it and truly be remorseful that I don't want to treat you like that.

I care about you. What hurts you, hurts me. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That's good start. Love it. That's the start.

Now we can talk. Okay. Now if they own it, do they really understand what the behavior is? And then if they say, okay, I know that hurt you. I'm so sorry. I won't do it anymore. That's not enough. What is new and different that's going to ensure that won't happen again?

If I got a bent axle in my car and it's going like this, and I pull over and say, you're rallying my car and it says, okay, I'm sorry I won't do it anymore. That ain't enough, buddy. That ain't going to do it. So then we've got to see what is going to be involved in some sort of process to enable them to change? Do they say, I'm going to get a coach, I'm going to get a therapist, I've got an accountability group, I'm going to treatment, whatever we got to see something new and different it's going to build the capacity for them to be able to do what they're promising us they're going to do and then we got to see them having some sort of a verifiable you know adherence to that they're actually showing up so oh i'm going to go to a a or something where you're going you know right some way to verify that which gives you security yeah yes and another one the motivation to change

this got to come from them if you're having to push them you didn't go to there and you know you said you and you come on let's go you can trust people who want to be the person you need

for them to be but they want it on their own even if you walked away yeah they're going to get sober for themselves right they're going to turn into a trustworthy person because that's the person they want be if you're having to drive it what happens when you stop pushing yeah so you know I mean you've seen this in court sure somebody goes to court you go before the judge

and they want you know some sort of leniency or some sort of and the judge is going to go well show me what you plan to do right you know and well we'll see you in a month and six months we'll see if you're sticking to that and there you go Do you find that, by the way, I love all this stuff. I feel like I'm like breathing straight oxygen right now. I love this kind of stuff. So because all of those things that you talked about are so critical, not only to, not only to business in many ways, they're also incredibly important to relationships.

They're important to trauma or shame or addiction or, I mean, any kind of repair that you're having to go. through and say okay is this something that we can is it repairable or not and so what I hear you saying is some factors that tell you are they is it worth repairing or not is there an ownership by them is there an actual acknowledgement affirmation of saying I can see that what I've done has caused you pain and that hurts me and I don't like that and I don't want that I love what you said what hurts you hurts me yeah what hurts you hurts me and three this aspect of can you see the inner desire for change separate and apart me that that desire for change lives apart from you yeah to be able to continue to go do you find that when we come to this necessary

ending if i if i'm going to communicate if you're going to talk to somebody across from you and they go dr. god how do i know if i need to cut if i need to end this relationship now you could have some of those three factors is there one overlying principle that you would share with that person. If you could just have two sentences. With the person? Yes. Well, you start with, you know, we talked about earlier kind of what the boundary is

of what you will accept and can accept and desire and what you don't. Now, a lot of times, even in business or somebody's dating or whatever or marriage, it's important to tell somebody, you know, let's say they work for you. So, you know, you have an important seat that you sit in. That position that you sit in is really important to the success of this team and this company and our customers. And whoever sits in that seat, this is what I'll need to see from them. I hope that's you. But this is what I'll need to see from whoever occupies that seat.

I hope it's you. and you're the one that gets to choose. If you want to be in that seat, then we can talk about a path to get there. That will start a great conversation. That's so good. Oh my gosh. I mean, when if you're...

I hope that's you. Oh. Well, think of... That's so good. I mean, even, you know, let's say a spouse, somebody had an affair or something. Yeah. I love you.

But whoever I'm married to is not going to be doing that. No, they can't keep doing that. Yeah. Whoever sits in that chair as my spouse will not be sleeping room. Mm-hmm. Okay. Whoever it is, I want that to be you. So, but you're going to have to figure out if you can sit in that chair or not.

That's up to you. And if you decide you want to, then we can talk about a path how to possibly get back. Yeah. And that goes back to the first off for that other person, the boundaries that have to be adhered to and knowing the consequence if they're not. And then that goes back to the ownership, the affirmation, the willingness to change. Structured path, proven path. The proven path. Somebody to validate that.

And when you got all that, that's just like I signed up for college. Well, what kind of grades are you making? I mean, there's got to be a track record of them showing up. And incremental invitation back, not all or nothing. They're doing all this. Oh, we're back to where we were. No. And I just saw a couple turn around the worst scenario.

I mean, nobody had any hope. Everybody was telling to divorce. And they turned it around. It took a minute. But they turned it around. And what was, what was, what was so key to that is that when, and in this case, she was the one that change had to come from. And he had to change something, but she was the big valet.

And when he agreed to open himself up to that process, he didn't say, okay, great, move back in. They were separated. He said, we're going to start with having one date per week. and I'm going to see if you're different or not because she was pretty abusive yeah if something triggered her I mean she could he wants to see if she could have a conversation and talk about stuff without going then when she passed that thing and then they gradually and now they are and it's been a while now together oh say a while how many years since that yeah They're about two years now, and they say they are in love more and having the greatest marriage they've ever had. And it was everybody telling him he should divorce him. Wow. But that's the path that they worked.

I think that shows a lot of the two sides of the necessary ending. And you used that phrase, what was it, the day and the tomorrow? Say it again, if you don't mind? Today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow. That's so good. I feel like I'm just getting constant, just bombs. These are so good. I love this guy.

This is the kind of stuff. I keep a collection, like phrases that I love. That's one of them. I'm definitely adding that to one of them. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Monarch. As the summer is heating up, you want to be focused on summer plans, having fun with your family and friends and doing things and not concerned about your money. Well, Monarch makes it that much easier to stay focused on the sunshine outdoors.

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And now let's keep going. I heard you speak church and you did an awesome job so well that I thought you were the, there was our first time visiting there and I thought you were the pastor, as I said. You know, pastors get paid to be good. I'm good for nothing. I can't be that holy all the time. All the time. Well, you made a point that has stuck with me,

and I mentioned this to you when I saw you over the weekend, was this element of seasons. Now, as a dad, as a parent of an 8-year-old and a 6-year-old, I look at other couples sometimes. And you're like, looking, it's almost. Almost half time. Yeah, don't say that to me, please. The clock's running and you got to figure out how long do we still have to win?

How are we doing? You're in the halftime huddle? This is a crucial season. This is a super crucial season. I agree. I agree. We're making the right place right now. That's great.

That's great. And you said, sometimes you have to know what season of life that you're in. That's right. And how that spoke to me was I see these other dads who, who play golf all the time. Or I see these dads who go hunting and fishing all the time. And a golf tournament or a fishing tournament. Or they're going to this show or that show.

And I think, sometimes, truly, I think that would be nice. I'd like to go do that. Of course. And then something happens when I look at my kids and I go, I can't do that. And I know of moms who, they're at brunch, and they see some girls having mimosis,

and instead they're with their kids opening up yogurt pouches, you know, with all that. And I found your words such a piece to me of knowing that's not my season. Like I can, maybe it'll be there again. But right now, that's not my season. And I would love if you would just give a little bit of insight on that concept for the listeners.

I think you put it well I I don't want that I don't want to be disconnected from my kids right and back to it's it's not true but there's truth to the phrase and it's not true so don't get injured by this if the places it doesn't apply but a lot of times we get what we want you know you get what we desire the most And if I desire my own interests and hobbies and fun over my desire for my kids, that's what I'm going to get. But you started with the right place. What do I want?

You look at that tomorrow. And what kind of tomorrow do I want to have? Well, I want to have, in your case, I want to have the high school years where they're learning to go out of all this stuff. but they're still want to come home. Yeah. And where that becomes a hub, where their friends want to come. I mean, that's the key to teenage parents. Right, yeah.

When you become the place. And then after they're gone, I want them to be independent, but I want them to still stay connected to us too without controlling. I look at that future. Well, me being gone and showing them that everything else in life is more important to me than them, you will get that in the future. And it's so important, you know, in the book I talk about different seasons, have different activities.

And in the spring, you sew. Which book is this? Necessary endings. Okay. In the spring, you've got, you can't demand harvest. Yeah. How many late nights have you taken an airplane to get home from speaking somewhere, so you'd be there the next morning when your kids woke up?

Yeah. You're sewing. Don't expect a big reward today for that. Yeah. So we got to realize to build a good marriage, to build a good business. Talk to any entrepreneur starting a company. When I started my hospital company, I didn't get a paycheck for the first four years. There's a period of sewing, and you've got to accept that.

And then there's summer comes after you sew, this plant's starting to emerge. You're going to have to be devoted to managing the growth to where it turns into what you want it to turn into. And the harvest is going to come later. And then at some point what you're engaged in, that may come to an end. Yeah. And there's a winter. And the activity of the winter, you see this in empty nusters, that season of parenting is over. You've got to take the time.

What do farmers do in the winter? They get their equipment. They clean it up. They get it in working order. And they figure out what do I want to plant next spring. So you've got to figure out what season you're in and define the activity. that are appropriate for that season to get what you want at Harvest Time. You had made the comment of your own realization of I couldn't be a good,

I couldn't be a golfer and a good dad at the same time. Yeah, I grew up playing competitive golf, and time my kids were born, I was back playing, I had an injury in college and had to quit. But by then I was playing again, and I was playing a lot of pretty high-level amateur tournaments. and for golfers out there is a plus three handicap.

Yeah, that's really good. But to maintain that, I really had to work on it. And I got married later. I was in my 30s when I got married. And at that point, I mean, it's time to have kids, I realized I can't be a plus three handicap

and a good dad. There's just no way. So I'm not telling everybody you got to do this, but the level I wanted to play at. So I quit for 17 years. Just quit golf. For 17 years. Yeah.

Now, I could have played then. People play golf to have kids, but I couldn't play at the level that I would love it. And I don't like it when I'm out there hacking it. Mm-hmm. And I really want, I just wanted, I wanted me a dad. I think that it spoke to me.

I wanted to make sure that you knew that really spoke to me and gave me a lot of comfort because it is very easy to get jaded and jealous. Even I love my kids. I can stare at my kids and weep, you know, just tears in your eyes looking at them. At the same time, I can look at other friends that, you know, they were out in another state hunting and I can get jealous. Of course. What is it just something wrong with it?

that. Exactly. After you got married, you still noticed attractive women, right? Yeah. And so it's like, how do you, how do you, but you got kids, right? And so I, that just gave me a lot of piece of, this, the mantra. I've said to myself several times over the last two months since I first saw you speak, and it was that this, that's not my season. This is not my season. And every time, it just makes my shoulders drop of like, nope. That's not my season. And I think that applies so much to also business and where you are in life, even as a couple of what, as a couple, what season are you in?

Are you planting? Are you growing? Are you harvesting? And what are you doing? I want to make sure that I talk about your new book, Your Desire Future, five essential steps that take you where you want to go. I know this is, you say like your 50th something book. I mean, I feel like you just spit out wisdom.

And like you just drop it out of your pocket constantly. So I'm all for it. We're going to make sure that we put the links down in the show notes. But I know from this book, you bring out these five essential steps that talk about having like a very defined future of where you want to do. And not just defined, but you said compelling. I mean, you used the word compelling of like what that means. Is it enough to get you out of bed?

That's a great one. Is it enough to get you up and excited out of bed? I mean, it said rocket signs either. I mean, I'm kind of hungry, but I'm watching the Masters on TV. Am I hungry enough to go actually make a sandwich? No, I'm going to wait until the next. But sometimes you got to eat, you know. Yeah, sometimes you got to eat.

What do you want? That's right. But here's the thing, motivation won't get you there. Right. And you'll hear a lot of people say, well, if he wanted bad enough, he would do it. That's not true. Motivation can be, research inversely correlated to achieving a goal. because sometimes we want it so bad,

but we're not getting it. It's not working. All right. And then you get so depressed over that. It takes away everything. So we need motivation. But if we don't have the path by which things get accomplished in place, it's not going to happen.

This episode is sponsored by You Know It, cozy earth. In fact, I'm wearing cozy earth right now, this navy, wonderful, snugly, cozy sweatshirt that I have multiple colors in because they feel that good. There's one thing I love about cozy earth is that everything I put on with them just feels awesome and I can dress it up. I can dress it down. It usually has like if I'm wearing, it depends what pants I have on, admittedly, and if I'm just wearing, well, if I'm wearing sneakers or what I'm doing, but the top is always solid. So if you're like me and you like,

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And now let's keep going. I want to make sure that I give the listeners these steps, these five steps on your desired future, because I want to see if we can apply it to some stuff I got going on. So one is your vision, two, engaging talent, three strategy, for the plan, five accountability. I know you have. Well, actually, strategy and a plan is three. Part of. And then there's measurement accountability or the fourth and then fixing adapt.

Fix and adapt is number five. Okay, let's take, let me, let's, I feel like I'm at a place in life where I'm still just trying to figure it out. And I go, okay, I want to know my desired future, Dr. Cloud. So, you know, how, how. Yeah, exactly. I want to know my desired future. So the first thing you would tell me is Jefferson, you want to make sure that you have a compelling plan or vision for your future. Now, I can tell you, I sometimes don't do that great.

goal setting or vision casting my wife and I seer now we were at a speaking engagement and we stayed an extra day and we're like we're going to do some gold vision casting we weren't very good at it we tried we tried asking questions but we found we were like we kept being really vague with things it was really hard to have something concrete so when you go a vision how specific do you need to be with your vision the brain the human brain hates ambiguity and it loves clarity. All right. Now, say that for a reason, because where I got the model of the book was, you know,

there's all this performance literature out there, but it's so much, where do you start? I thought, wouldn't it be helpful to have a little GPS where somebody wake up every day and just ask the question, am I doing these things? Okay. Yeah. And I decided to use as the model the most incredible performance. machine that's ever been created and it's the human body. There's nothing like it.

AI, they're trying to imitate what we do. Right. So what happens? Your prefrontal cortex, we're the only species that can do this. My dog just runs and does what she's going to bark to protect the, like she's wired, but she never stops and says, I wonder if that was helpful. Is that going to get me where I want to be next Thursday? How well is that part?

It was a little too low. Exactly. We have the capacity to stop and say, Here's where I am. Where do I want to really be next Thursday? And what do I need to do to get there? Okay. So when your brain does that and you get clarity on that, it's unbelievable the neurobiology

that starts and it pulls networks of everything associated that and memories and all of that. And it's really already beginning based on the clarity of what you. want. This is why the research always shows people write down their goals, 70, 80%, more likely to achieve them. But that just starts the process. Now, okay, brain go there. If I'm going over there, brain go there. Your brain ain't going nowhere by itself, it starts to send out emails to engage the talent is going to need to help it get there. I'm going to need a couple the legs, someone needs some eyes to focus on. So it gets the talent around the table. And this, you can hire it. It might be a friend. It might be an uncle. It knows how it's

do it. It might be a support. Who never. But you're not going by yourself for 10,000 reasons. We need to have the right talent around us. Okay. So now I got all my talent. Okay. Well, all right, I'm going to go. Well, wait. How am I going to get there? I'm going to call an Uber. Well, that doesn't really fit the market, right? That's not the best number three strategy. Your brain decides the best way to win, I'm going to walk. In this context, that's my best strategy. Your brain actually at that point begins to write a plan.

You're not even aware of how many steps are going to take every second, three feet, certain heading. While it's doing that, it has come up with a measurement and accountability system that as you start walking, It's looking at it like an autopilot and going, you know, you veered off. You're going to hit the window and it steers you back. Number five, it fixes and adapts. So what are we talking about? You know where we're going. You better get the talent around you.

You better know how you're going to win or you'll be trying every random thing in the world. Oh, I've got an Instagram and see. No, you got a strategy. You listen to Jefferson. That's your strategy. You got to have a plan. You do it every day. And you got to have somebody hold you accountable.

And if you miss a day, you know, whatever. Right. But you got to, if these ingredients aren't there, and here's the problem. None of us are naturally drawn to all fine. Somebody might be great. Imagine in this and strategy. But what if your conflict avoidant? How is accountability going to work in there?

Or go back to vision. What if you come from a background? Let's say you didn't grow up in a household lawyers. Right. They valued education. I work with a group in L.A. called First Star. They take foster kids. Almost 100% of foster kids don't graduate high school, and virtually none go to college.

They get them in the ninth grade, and they start to take them once a month to UCLA for a weekend. And they start to train them in life skills and how to have an interview and how to do a budget and all this kind of stuff. 100% of their kids graduate in high school and 90-something go to secondary education. Why? Because they have a strategy, they have a plan, they have accounting. They're doing this job. But here's what the kids say. When they ask them at the end, what did it for you?

And I think it's 70% I'm putting in the book, 70% of them say it was getting a vision that this was possible for me. A lot of people, Jefferson, they've been so wounded. are lost so many times that even having a vision that a good relationship is possible for them or an education or a career, it just, it dies at the vision thing because of the internal voices that shut it down. And sometimes, this is going to sound funny, sometimes we need all five steps and the vision is to get a vision. So now my vision is to get a vision. Like you said, how do my wife and I? Well, what I would do if your wife and I want to get a vision, I would engage the talent to help you get a vision. Bring in a good facilitator who does this with couples

and helps them come up with the vision for their marriage. What do y'all want to do over 30 years? What do you want your family to accomplish when you look back and you get that vision? And then, okay, if that's it, what talent do we need to bring to help you do that? And then what's the strategy? Well, the strategy might be, okay, we're going to meet weekly with the, and you just, it's just how it happens. Hit those five steps just to get the vision. Maybe.

Right, you might. And I think you made a good point, too, of the, that's why some people might be good at the vision and so I'm much better at the strategy. They call them dreamers. Yeah, right. They just have really good ideas. When my office was in Beverly Hills and clients would fly in, and they'd always say, okay, but while I'm here, I want to see an actor.

I want to see an actor. I go, I can get it to you and see an actor. They said, how? I said, well, where are Beverly Hills? I mean, I promise you, go to lunch, you'll see an actor. Well, what I knew that they didn't was every waiter in Beverly Hills as an actor. Yeah.

You will mean an actor today. Now, sometimes you're going to see some rules, but the boy being, I would, you know, if you talk to these servers and they say, you know, I'm an actor. And then you said, well, what are you, what about seeing that you've been in? And sometimes, you know, well, I just got here. I've been here. You're still working on it. And that's great.

You got to do that in the beginning. But sometimes you were here. I'm a screenwriter. I'm an actor. Yeah. And I said, what have I seen? And, you know, and they said, well, I'm working on it. You know, I got this super.

project and it's always out there something's going to happen and they're like 50 years old and they've been there for 30 years and no it's probably not going to happen and if you had the video you would see it's very different than the ones who actually have the talent around them to help them get better right to get the auditions get the skills a strategy to do that I mean you think some of these guys like you know like Marky Mark and Matt Damon you and people like that you look at their career careers. It has been a strategic process. It's not luck. Yeah, it doesn't just happen. Every now that somebody wins the lottery, but usually it's that path right there. These five ingredients are going to be there. It reminds me of the piano man by Billy Joel of like the people that came into the dive bar and, you know, it could have been a movie star. You know, I could have been this. I could have been that, you know, just the the dreamers. And if only this would have happened,

it would have been. The lyric said, then, you're so good. so good. And so sad. Yeah. You know, the worst thing you can die with is potential. When you talk to somebody, this is a selfish question. Sometimes I don't know what I want. Of course. Like I really, I do, sometimes I struggle with that because here, I'll make it personal. I never saw my life anything like this right here. I had no, no, I had no clue. Where is it, judge and jury? Exactly. Yeah, there was no. This was a. This was a.

in the vision, you know, this wasn't in the vision. I had a very strategic vision of what I thought my legal career was going to be to a T. And now I am in what feels like a dream world. And so, I have a very difficult time when I talk to other friends who seem like they know what they're doing and they have big social followings and they go, well, what do you, what just depends what you want. What do you want? And I go, I didn't know I'd be even in the room. And so. What do you like where you do?

I love what I do. I love. I never thought this is a thing. You want what you're doing. Yeah, I don't want to stop this. I mean, I do love that. I just, when they go, well, where do you want to go with it? Or I think I also talk to people I know in conversations that when I'll say, what do you want them to know?

I guess maybe I'll take my own advice here. Can I interrupt for one second. Yeah. There is an underlying theme here. And this speaks to your heart. Okay. And it speaks to that question. Many times in life, we find ourselves in different contexts doing different things.

But if you look underneath it, there's a theme to it that taps into what you love to do, what you're good at, and there's a need for it in the world. You have those three things. I could love to do it. But if I suck it in it, I'm not going to play for the lake. or yeah yeah I could love something that's a great idea but yeah and the world matchability yeah yeah and the world didn't care you know I'm a sell team like when you are an attorney one of the things you're doing is you're helping people clarify how to protect themselves and have the best property their life that they can

have and you're helping them structure that and you did that in contracts and litigation right now what are you doing you're helping people look at their lives and their hearts and their minds and how to protect that and get the good things for them it's the same thing i never thought about that and what you're going to be doing i don't know you may find a different part of your heart there was but I would guess there's a part of you that you're always going to be seeing what people need, helping them protect what is good and helping them gain the skills to protect themselves from West Bend. It's going to be fun to watch you and see where this emerges. I appreciate that.

I'm going to be in the audience. Well, I'm going to be calling on you. is what I'm going to be doing. Your desired future Dr. Henry Cloud, this is so good. I mean, we already, I feel like I'm already proof. This session right here was proof this book works. I'm about to get somebody to help me get this vision underground. Of course.

This is wonderful. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. This has been one of my favorite conversations. Well, I told you when you met, I go, dude, I've been riding in the car with you for a long time. Yeah, so glad. So glad we'd be able to ride together. And once I found out that you were able to come on, I was just so so excited.

So I look forward to staying in touch. And really, really honored by the value that you share. I think you were really one of, to me, one of like the OG godfathers of this space before it became such a viral thing online, a social media, and took off. I mean, I think your heart was in the right place already of helping so many with bound. boundaries in knowing what's worth repairing and what's not in businesses and how do you know because it all applies the same way and so I think this just incredible work so your body of work is something that I have of the amount of people that ask me often you know who do you look up to who who's the type that you could this is kind of what I would be honored to model myself after you're definitely

one of them and so I really really appreciate that time probably you under rise a bar but that's Yeah, we're great. Thanks. I appreciate you coming on. It's great. Thanks. Great to be here.