The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Erin McGoff: How to be Instantly More Confident at Work

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

If you’ve ever found yourself wondering how to answer “What’s your greatest weakness?” in a job interview—or how to ask for a raise without it getting awkward—this episode is for you. Jefferson sits down with workplace communication expert and viral career content creator Erin McGoff to break down the exact words to use in the trickiest on-the-job conversations. From handling passive-aggressive coworkers to quitting your job with grace (and keeping that door open), Erin shares practical advice and real scripts you can start using today. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is one place that is probably more important in your life than any other place and it's the place that you spend the most time the workplace Today I've brought you somebody who knows the workplace like nobody else. She's the most followed content creator and Specifically career in workplace strategies and I want to talk to her today Erin McGough Erin Thank you so much for coming. Jefferson, thank you so much for having me. It's so great to get to talk in person after exchanging so many DMs. Yeah, I know. We were like encouraging each other along the way as we were

each growing. I know you have like over 6 million followers across all your platforms, which is incredible and it's been really fun to cheer each other on along the way. So congratulations with everything. Oh my gosh, congratulations to you. Your book is fantastic. It's on my bookshelf. And I have to say real quick, my mom is your biggest fan ever and she loves your content so much.

So shout out to mom. Shout out to mom. What's mom's name? Claire. She's the one from Texas from the Pan Shout out to mom, what's mom's name? Claire, she's the one from Texas from the Panhandle. Oh, that's right, that's right. Claire, love that you're from Texas, thanks for following me, that's awesome.

This is one of my favorite kind of conversations when I can talk to other creators who are similar in space because it could be a very lonely space when you're getting into it. And this is a question that I ask just about every one of my guests that I have and this is the first question. Specifically with communication, Erin,

how does Erin McGough talk to herself? I want you to share with people, how do you encourage yourself? What's the self- talk like before we start talking about how to engage with everybody else? Oh, so important. The way that you communicate with yourself is the most important person you will ever communicate with

is yourself. I always say like my key to confidence is just being your own best friend. You know, talking to yourself the way that you would talk to a best friend. So, you know, if I look in the mirror and I hear that thought of, Oh, I don't look very good today. I imagine if my friend was saying that and what I would say to her and I'd be

like, you're ridiculous. Like it's okay. Just go take a shower. You know? So I like to keep it real with myself, but also give myself so much empathy and compassion because we're oftentimes our worst critic. So be your own best friend. I'm my own best friend. Be your own best friend. Do you hear that everybody? I love that. I think that's wonderful. And do you, you say it like in the mirror or when you're driving to yourself or do you imagine a duplicate of yourself and you're thinking this? Yeah, I probably sound a little bit crazy, but yeah, I mean, after a while it just became a habit. Like you look in the mirror or you know, you hear those critical thoughts of yourself or oh I sounded bad in that meeting.

Oh those people didn't like me. And then you just respond to yourself and you're like those people probably liked you. Like there's no indicator that they didn't like you. And then after a while that just becomes one singular voice. I know it sounds kind of split personality-ish, but I truly, I noticed it the other day. I'm like, wow, I'm actually really kind to myself. I know it sounds kind of split personality-ish, but I truly, I noticed it the other day. I'm like, wow, I'm actually really kind to myself. I keep it real. You know, you can't just be worshiping yourself all the time. You have to keep it real with yourself, but you like, you would keep it real with a best friend. You know, you don't just worship a best friend and constantly, you know, boost them up and up and up, but you need to be real with them sometimes.

So that's why I like that kind of saying, be your own best friend. I like that and I think it's a healthy balance too. You can hype them up, at the same time you have to be like, hey listen, I know you think you're great. I need to give you the truth. So I think that's a very- Get your butt to the gym, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

You gotta get going, get out of bed, get going. Yeah. Erin is the most followed career advice content creator out there. Before we talk about some strategies, I understand you're the youngest of six kids. I am. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, uh, so what's like the age difference between them all and I'm the oldest of four. So hearing this perspective is really cool for me. Oh, that's so funny. Um,

yeah, I'm the youngest of six. We're all about two and a half years apart. So there's like a 12 year gap between me and the oldest sibling. That's incredible. That's awesome. And growing up, you know, what did you find? How did you think that shaped your communication

and your drive growing up now? It's a great question. I think I'm a typical youngest child. You have to learn how to get a word in. And that's why I think I speak so quickly is because, and have a sense of humor. A lot of youngest children have a sense of humor because we're just trying to get our word in

and trying to get attention. So I definitely learned how to like think really quick on my feet, be pithy and concise because you're're trying to you know, just get a word in and and to be fair My parents were really good about giving everybody equal attention and time and being very fair about things But yeah, you definitely learn how to be very quick on your feet. I can I can definitely see that I think that's why your career advice content does so well is your career advice content does so well is because you have as you know, we have a very short window of time to give a whole lot of information to people and

Like with my followers we get a lot of value out of what you could say were scripts Like how I would I tell people instead of this word I want you to flip it and use this word or maybe the structure of a sentence I want them to flip it and use this word or maybe the structure of a sentence, I want them to reverse it or replace a certain phrase. And so I could see how as the youngest getting that word in, being really quick on your feet is very strategic when it comes to communicating in the workplace. Yeah, oh definitely. And yeah, being the youngest you're always talked down to as well, especially of six, you know, as the bottom of eight people. And so everybody's always talking down to you.

So you really learn how to kind of like manage up from a young age and like talk up to people. And I was definitely always treated older than I was, I think. So people always told me I was mature from my age. So yeah, I would say very, very much affected me in a positive way, growing up in that big, big tribe. But yeah, I definitely don it very, very much affected me in a positive way growing up in that big, big tribe. But yeah, I definitely don't want to have six kids. I don't know how anybody can manage that this day and age, but they do.

All right. So as the most followed career advice content creator, where do you draw your experience from, Erin? So, so many different places. I mean, every morning I listen to business podcasts, I read studies and research, but I also just talk to people. Every single day in my DMs, I'm conversing with recruiters, business owners, and especially job seekers. And I just like to be like kind of a boots on the ground person listening. And then when it comes to all the advice that I share, it's truly just wisdom that I've stolen from so many people in my life.

You know, I listen to Ted Talks, but I also just will like give advice that I heard from my dad or from, you know, my aunt or something like that. So it's truly just a mosaic. And I basically just look to some of the wisest minds in the world. I listen to what I hear repeated over and over again. And then the cherry on top is kind of what I hear repeated over and over again. And then the cherry on top is kind of what I've experienced in my own life. I don't really give advice from personal experience. I'd more like to research a variety of sources and then kind of boil it down and

then put my personal experience kind of as a cherry on top. So I run a lot of my content like through friends who work in different industries and stuff like that. So yeah, it's really, um, my content's a lot more researched I think than people realize. Oh, that's awesome. Very cool. So mine, I'm like the opposite. Uh, mine is 0% researched, um, and all, you know, from, from my world and the communication and litigation courtroom world, whereas you are more of a encyclopedia, like library resource of all the tools that people can use

and go to when it comes to the workplace and career, right? Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like we're both giving subjective advice, you know? So you might say one thing, another career expert might say another thing. So yeah, like as much as I like to pretend it's objective and research-based, like at the end of the day, it really is just subjective.

Oh yeah, it all is. I mean, that's why I end with, so try that. Yeah. It's not, you must do this. It's just, you can try it if you like it. I love it. If you don't like it, you don't have to. I wanna get into a topic, Erin,

that I know that anybody in the workplace has dealt with before and continues to deal topic, Erin, that I know that anybody in the workplace has dealt with before and continues to deal with, and that's specific to interviews. Or I know you're very, very versed in interviews. This is the question I wanna ask. How do you handle the what's your greatest weakness interview question? Yeah, man, can you believe they're still asking that question?

I can't believe it. I can't. Yeah. Well, there's a there's a couple of things. So the first thing is to understand the question behind the question is what I say. So when they're asking, what is your greatest weakness? They're not actually asking like about what your greatest weakness is. Like mine is Ben and Jerry's half baked iceaked ice cream like they're not really curious about that what they're really asking is what are your red flags are you going to reveal something to me that I might need to know also it's kind of a signal of how professional you are

because if you're caught off guard by this question or if you answer it quote unquote wrong it kind of signals to them that you don't know that that was an interview question that people ask and you didn't know how to answer it. So it's kind of part of this hidden curriculum and secret language of work. So there's that. So they're really asking how well can you professionally

articulate yourself? So the question's about articulation. And then the second half of it is how to answer. And I always teach something called the 10-90 rule. So you should spend only 10% of your answer naming the weakness and then the remaining 90% talking about how you're working on it. So you're really talking about self-awareness. I'm aware of this weakness within myself. Here's why it's important and here's what I'm doing to address it and you know what it's really working out so far. And you don't want to name something like you

know a lot of people will say, oh, well, I'm a perfectionist, and you'll get an immediate eye roll. You don't want to name something that's a character trait. Like, you don't want to say, like, I'm a perfectionist, or this is just the way that I am. You know, you want to name something kind of tangible that you're working on.

And something else that's really important is that it needs to be real, but don't have it be directly hindering. Like, it shouldn't hinder your ability to do the job. So delegation is safe for a lot of people. Not if you're a manager. Don't say delegation. But something that I'm currently working to improve

are my delegation skills. So each week, I try to delegate one task and I keep a sticky note next to my laptop and it's really helping me remember that. So I think that brings up such a good point when anybody, a supervisor, somebody interviewing you is asking that greatest weakness question. What I hear you saying is you need to see

the issue behind the issue. They don't really care about your weakness. They're wondering where are the problems with you? Where are those? Can you talk about those red flags? And I love how it's, you need to talk about something that's concrete and preferably something you're working on. So it's not like the, my weakness is I'm just too honest

or I'm too much of a hard worker sometimes like you try and use as a compliment I think that can definitely go wrong I'm a perfectionist yeah I just do everything perfectly that's that's all you're saying but if you can put it in terms of like you said the I have a hard time delegating sometimes, or I occasionally try to work too fast, and that might cause me to miss a few things. I think that what I also take away from this Aaron is,

when you can have that moment of honesty, to say it's not necessarily my weakness, but this is a thing I'm working on. As I think that shows a lot of self-awareness that that's what really employers are looking for. Mm-hmm, yeah, they're really looking, because I'll post an example and people will say, well, you shouldn't tell an employer that you don't have

a sense of humor or that you're too blunt. And I'm like, well, that's kind of the point is that you tell them how you're working on it and how you're self-aware and how you understand. And also, you're not telling and I'm like, well that's kind of the point is that you tell them how you're working on it and how you're self aware and how you understand and also you're not telling them a deal breaker, you know. Don't tell them you're working on your sense of humor if you're planning to be a comedy writer, you know.

Read the room. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And see, I, so I have a law firm and they have about 15 people. And then I also, most people don't know this, but I also have a restaurant and a coffee shop. No, no way.

And so, yeah, I've had it for, I think, six years now. Oh my gosh, how do you do this? I don't know, Larian, don't ask me. And you have kids. And I got kids and a wife and a family and everybody. And so, yeah, I've hired a lot of people, that being said, and I've also had to let go many people. And often what I find so valuable for people

that are wanting to get hired is when they admit kind of the rougher edges of their personality. Because I'd much rather than be honest with me upfront, and then later on, then later on finding out, oh they're not really who they said that they were. So if somebody can admit upfront, the thing that they're working on, so if it's working on slowing down my pace,

I'm working on paying more attention to detail, I'm paying attention to how sometimes, maybe I'm a little bit too blunt, maybe I'm working on paying more attention to detail. I'm paying attention to how sometimes, maybe I'm a little bit too blunt, maybe I'm too direct. I think those are all things that are natural and normal. I go, oh, okay, very cool. Well, now it also informs me how to interact with you and how you, some people like to be, need to be kind of coddled in a way,

like to have the, you need to kind of hold their hand. And some people, they need the, they need the tough love. Totally. Yeah, that's something else that I teach is just whenever you go into a job interview, you want to think of the desired, the desired results. So you want to think of what you want the recruiter to think after you're done answering and you just named it.

You want the recruiter to think, oh yeah, I struggle with that too. That's fine. Like that's what you want the recruiter to think after you're done answering and you just named it. You want the recruiter to think, oh yeah, I struggle with that too. That's fine. Like that's what you want them to think. So you need to craft your answer in a way where, like it's just something that they can say, oh yeah, like that's not a jailbreaker. That's fine.

They're working on it. Today's episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. I like talking about them. I like having them as a sponsor because I wear their stuff. I am wearing Cozy Earth pants right now. It is raining cats and dogs outside and these are athletic type pants that I really really like. So if you know anybody who works in the office and you're always wanting to wear something on the go,

Cozy Earth has clothes. It's really great for any kind of weather. I wear these to the office, I wear these at home, wherever it is. CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 40% off. CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 40% off. My only tip that I have that I like for interviews in my own arsenal is using confident. Instead of saying, I think that I like for interviews in my own arsenal is using

Confident instead of saying I think that I'd be good or I believe I'd be good It's I'm confident that I'd be good because then the interviewer is like, oh well then this person sounds confident And then that's what they write right underneath your name and their notes. It's such a great tip You know instead of saying well, I think I'd be good at this. I'm confident. I'd be good at this Just throwing the word confident in there. Beautiful tip. Perfect tip. Yeah, they're gonna do it's funny how just using words naturally relates that that value item to them. The here's another question that I'm very curious about specific with your expertise in the workplace. How do you handle a passive aggressive person at work? Oh that's really tough. You know I think there's kind of two categories when it comes to

passive aggressive people. There's one category where it's affecting you and your work and your ability to complete your duties and responsibilities and then there's another category where they don't affect your work at all. It's just annoying. And so my overarching advice when dealing with anybody difficult at work is just to not take it personally. I think it's hard when you're at work and somebody's given you a little attitude and to get all festered and flustered and you know get mad at them but you know don't get mad just get curious you know think about how like why are they this way why are

they so miserable and you talk a lot about passive aggressiveness I want to hear your answer as well but when people are passive aggressive, it's because they lack an ability to communicate like an adult and professionally. And I think there are some instances where actually passive aggressive behavior or passive behavior is okay. Sometimes people might be trying to hint to you something. So something that I like to ask if you're not sure if somebody's being passive aggressive is, oh did you mean that genuinely or were you trying to hint at something? Because you actually never know. Somebody might mean something really genuinely, but you're insecure about what's going on

so you're taking it in a passive aggressive way or they might be 100% just being a jerk and just being passive aggressive. So when you ask them, hey, did you mean that genuinely or were you trying to hint at something? Then they either have to confront, no, I meant that genuinely or they have to say, no I was actually hinting at something. I think passive aggressiveness may be one of the most frustrating things in the workplace and we have a bad habit too of reading it in somebody's email or their slack message your team's message or whatever and What you just highlighted is exactly right that these people and

By the way when I say these people it's me included. It's everybody we all have these moments Yeah, we all have these moments where? I'll say something passively and I know it's passive aggressive and in that moment, you know what? I don't really care I'm just's passive aggressive and in that moment, you know what I don't really care I'm just feeling passive aggressive and It is nice to have people that Don't take it personally like as somebody who's been passive aggressive, which we all have I Can see and I appreciate the people who do not take it personally Instead when you're able to ask just like you said, do you mean this genuinely? What I like to give is, should I read into that?

So, should I read into that? Should I read into that comment? Should I read into this? Or even asking them to say something around getting them to explain more of what they meant. Can you tell me more about that? They will find a way to kind of like get over the hump and hopefully be more direct with you.

I find that it's people that naturally, their whole life, Aaron, have been pretty passive aggressive because they've seen that growing up. Most likely it's a family member, a mom, a dad, or somebody who in their life has naturally shown them that to get what you want somehow, you need to be passive aggressive and hint at it and then resent people for not giving it to you because you feel like you deserve it in that moment. The passive aggressive comments certainly don't serve you and they find ways to conflict and constrict communication.

When you need to get something done, when something's on a deadline, we've had these people say, come on, get it out, if you got a problem, spit it out. I find that that makes it worse most of the time. Yeah, because they're defensive and they're insecure and that's why they're communicating in a passive aggressive manner.

So if you fight fire with fire, yeah, typically doesn't work out. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Anytime that somebody's been, if somebody's being passive aggressive and you say something like, hey, if you got something to say, spit it out. It just makes them backpedal even further.

It's not gonna embrace them. It's not going to get them to open up in any way. But when you can say things like Chris Voss, who I've had on and who's a great friend, he has this phrase that I love, and it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Seems like there's a reason you'd say that.

I'm a little scared right now thinking of Chris Ross saying that to me. Well, he's a scary guy. He's a scary guy. He is scary. Yeah, and he has this accent that's like almost mafia. Like, he sounded like you got a reason for saying that. Like, oh my gosh. Hey, that was good.

Yeah, did you like that? Well, I spent five days in New York, so now I feel like I have a dual citizenship up in New York. But you know, when you're getting, it's the using a question to find something out. I usually will ask, should I read into that? Should I read into that comment?

And I think tone with that is really important because it could be a little, should I read into that? But you wanna ask genuinely. Yeah, I think you're spot on. And even your suggestion of, did you mean that genuinely? Most people don't. They just will kind of start to explain more and more of what they meant.

What do you find, Erin, in your work, you have over six million followers across your platform, what do you find most people come to you with when they say Erin I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z? Two things. 100% of people who come to me, 99% come for two things. The first thing is interpersonal relationship dynamics. So they know what they feel and they know what they want to say. They just don't know how to say it. Hence why both of our accounts have been so popular

is because people don't want to cause conflict and they don't want to say the wrong thing and they just want to be understood. And oftentimes, like you said, our childhood, the way we grew up, the way we saw communication styles, the way we learned how to communicate, it leads to an inability to be able to communicate properly as an adult.

So learning the proper words can help us communicate better. So that's one thing is they just want to learn how do I tell my boss I'm quitting? I get a lot of people who are just really anxious. How do I tell my coworker that they're micromanaging me? How do I tell my boss that they're MIA and that's negatively affecting my work? Or how do I say that I'm burnt out? All of these things. And then the second thing that I see most common

is validation. People know what they wanna do, they think they know what they wanna say, and they just need a little kick in the butt. I just need to scoot them on, and I do a lot of that. I say, you know what? You sound like you know what you're doing, you sound like you know what you want to do,

and I think you should just go do it. So those are pretty much the two things. Oh, those are awesome. One that caught my attention, and one question I've answered in emails from people specifically is the how do I tell my boss that I'm leaving? How do I tell my boss that I'm leaving? So I'm gonna ask, I'll ask you that, Erin.

How do you tell your boss or supervisor that you'm leaving. So I'm gonna ask, I'll ask you that, Erin. How do you tell your boss or supervisor that you're leaving your job? Yeah, how to quit your job. You know, something that's so interesting with quitting your job is that it's both extremely professional and kind of personal. We spend most of our waking hours at work. You know, I always say unless you're a trust fund baby or a sugar baby or I guess a regular baby, you're gonna spend most of your waking hours at work. I always say unless you're a trust fund baby or a sugar baby or I guess a regular baby, you're going to spend most of your waking hours at work. And so work is very personal despite us trying to separate them. It is your life. Life is linear. So I always remind people that when you're quitting a job, it's a transactional relationship. They hired you to do a job, you did a job and they paid you, and now you're moving on to a new job. And that's it.

Now if you liked your boss a lot, or if you liked your boss just a normal amount, they were a normal boss, don't be afraid to tell them that. Like be appreciative, have some gratitude, but you know if maybe you didn't like your boss, you didn't like the work environment, I would still encourage you to leave the job with grace and professionalism. It can feel good in the moment boss, you didn't like the work environment, I would still encourage you to leave the job with grace and professionalism. It can feel good in the moment to stick it to the man and tell him how you feel and get all angry and flustered, but honestly, it's a waste of your energy and a year from now, you're going to feel really regretful that you did that because the world is actually

much smaller than people realize. And you come across people. You think that your boss just stayed at that job and you can curse them out and leave, but you know, unbeknownst to you, they're your new client at your new company. So like you just have no idea. You want to have good karma. You want to leave things in good standing and that's to your benefit. A lot of the times when I tell people and I encourage them to lead with grace and professionalism, uh, they're like, well, you know, they deserve blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, this isn't about them. This is actually just about you and your mental health. I highly encourage you, if you are leaving an environment which stirs up a lot of anger in you or feelings, go get it out. Like write that glass to review, you know, do that exit interview, go to a kickboxing class, get out your feelings.

But that conversation when you're leaving should be done with grace. It should be quick. You should arrange it on the calendar. You know, Friday afternoon is usually when most people do it. And remember it's not personal. It's just professional. Your boss, you are not the first person to quit. You're not the last person that will, they'll have quit on them. But again, if you had a good working relationship with your boss, tell them, you know, I really appreciate you working with you. The only thing I'll accept, you know, is an open door if I ever come crawling back to you.

And I hope that we cross paths again in the future. You know, you never know. I think that's a great technique. So let's, I want to put this in a box for us, for the listener right now. Anybody who's, you're thinking right now that you need to leave your job, you've been thinking about it, you want to go on to something else, let's talk about how to do that. Number one, what I'm hearing from Aaron is you make time for it. It's not a spur of the moment conversation. It's not something that you just want to do

on a whim. You actually want to set aside specific time, meaning you're going to ask that supervisor or whoever, hey, I'd like to have some talk time with you. I'd like to visit with you for about five to 10 minutes or so on X date. Do I got that right Erin? Mm-hmm. Yep. Awesome. So number two, what I'm hearing is when you need to speak with them, you don't want to do it in terms of saying, well, I'm just going to blow this place up. I'm going to flip tables. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to make sure they remember me. Even if they are, it's a horrible toxic environment.

What I pull from you, Aaron, is you never want to give them a reason to say, this is why we let her go, because of this. In other words, you wanna leave with your head high, rather than coming out of it, and let's say you just ran them upside, one side and down the other, you wanna do it from a position

of always maintaining your integrity. Are we good there? Do I have it right so far? Yeah, you wanna end your dignity, yeah. Yeah, I think because at the end of the day, it's yours. I love what you said. It's not about them and what they've done.

It's about you and where you're going. Exactly. Three, what I'm pulling away is that whenever you speak to this person, you wanna make sure that instead of just focusing specifically on I am leaving this job, this position, this very micro moment, you need to discuss it with them in terms of a bigger macro element of

this is where I'm going in my career. So when you can use words like career or journey or my path or this is my trajectory, then they feel less like this is one little moment, but they are now helping you along that path. And then they'll be much more open to saying, hey, great job, they're gonna encourage you, hey, I know you're gonna have a great career,

I have a lot more going on, rather than you just focusing on, hey, I'm quitting this job by, and then they're out. I think that's gonna be really helpful for a lot of people, Erin. Absolutely, yeah, we think that it's just a door that we're shutting, but really it's not. Your career is fluid, you never know where you're gonna go.

A lot of times people go back to their old job a few years later, so yeah, just keep that door open. And like you said, bring them on as an ally so that they can encourage you to move on to the next part of your journey. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I never feel like, even when people have wronged me, if I can leave that relationship or leave that place,

even with just waving at it in the rear view mirror. Like it's gone, onto the next thing, see ya. On the next. It's gonna be much better for you and your own mental health. And that's exactly what Erin's point is here. It's not about what all they've done and you need to have your sense of justice

and you need to get revenge on them and just let it all out. You can let it out, but do it on your own terms. It's not, you releasing it all to them is not gonna do any good. Not gonna do any good, you're already leaving. So instead don't give them a reason for why they go, yeah, you know what, we don't really like Karen.

She's a jerk because you just justified that in how you ended that with them. Instead it's about you and how you're gonna leave that. I think that's a wonderful piece of advice for anybody wanting to get out of where they're going and where they wanna be in the workplace. Erin, thank you very much for that. Yeah, of course.

When you feel like people are specifically supervisors, like you're asking for a raise, or you're asking for something that you want from a supervisor, what's the best way to handle that? Oh, I love this question, especially since a lot of my advice is for people being managed, and I'd love to give more advice for managers,

typically when I post those videos, there's less managers than people being managed. So anyway, the comments always get interesting. Um, but anytime you're going to a supervisor or manager or somebody senior to you, I want you to imagine that you're them. Like we see these people as, Oh, well they're above us. They have it all figured out. Like they have more control than me. This is a weird power dynamic, but at the end of the day, they probably have a boss too who has a boss too who has a boss too.

And they have dirty laundry at home, they have to call their grandma, like they're stressed out about paying off their student loans, like they're looking for a new job, they're probably also looking for a raise, like they're just a person at the end of the day. So anytime that somebody comes to me and they're like, hey, I want to go to my manager and talk to them about this, I always tell them imagine that you were that manager and you know somebody that you manage was coming to you and asking you that question. How would you want them to ask you that question when you have a million other things going on? And yes it's their job to supervise or manage you so you

know don't get it twisted that's part of their job but they have a lot going on you know and so how can you present this in a way where it's not a battle, it's not, you know, give me this vacation or I quit, but rather how can we work together, you know, to coordinate schedules? Because at the end of the day, like managers, it is a stressful job, especially middle managers, when you have to report to your boss above you and then cater to people underneath you. It's a very thankless job. So I always encourage people just try to step in their shoes,

think about everything they have going on and how you can make this an easy yes for them. Get to yes, you know, that desired outcome is them saying, yeah, you could take that extra vacation day. That's no problem. How can you get them to say that? So think about it backwards. Mm-hmm. That's so good. I love that. And you know from my world, I preach that the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. And that goes for your managers. Most managers are just employees

that have just been advanced. I mean, and that's all really anybody is unless they're the founder of the company in some way. They're you. And so you go, okay, how do I handle that? It's so funny how all of a sudden, when you become a manager, people's brains kinda get rewired,

where it's now on us against them. Like I remember, I come out to my law firm, the first one I was at, big defense firm, you're an associate as you start, and then you become a partner. And when you're an associate, you're like, oh, the partners never do this, the partners never do this, the partners never do that.

And you just have like this collective, the partners, don't understand me. And then all of a sudden, when you become a partner, you're like, oh, these associates, can they just stop whining? Like you just, like it happens like overnight, you're all of a sudden like, oh, these associates, geez Louise.

And you start, it does this mindset shift that's so easy to do, and the same thing happens wherever you're at. I love this idea of remembering they're just people. And a tip that I like to give people that are dealing with ones that are above them is this idea of when you ask them questions. If you want a raise or whatever it is you become almost the student to them so if you can make them feel like a teacher by asking questions of so how how did you.

Get to your position or what's the best way you think for me to if i'm interested in a a raise, what would you do if you were in my shoes? So when you can try and put them in a position and make them feel good of, you know, I see where you're at and I'd love to be where you're at sooner than later. How did you get to where you are? And you kind of get them to tell their story of what they did and how they did it and when they did it. They'll be much more receptive to having, you'll get more nuggets out of them

instead of just asking them, hey, so I'd like a raise. Can you give me a raise? Give me, give me. Yeah, when am I gonna give a raise? Because all they're hearing is, oh, you just want stuff. You just want stuff. Oh, you're threatening me in a sense of, oh, if you don't get a raise, you're gone.

So I can see, talk about the downside real quick of when somebody comes out of the gate, almost too strong, and they're saying, if they just come right in and say, Erin, I want a raise. Like, what does it go through the employer's mind? Yeah, so, you know, what you're doing when you come out of the gate

strong like you said, is you're putting a lot of work and like load on them because your manager, if you work in a corporate structure, is probably not the one that actually has to green light that raise. They have to go to their boss who has to go to finance, who has to go to HR and it's like a lot of people who have to say yes.

So that's why it's important. Yeah, that's why it's important to not, and it's always, you know, I always talk about how there's a difference when you're negotiating with the person who has the power to say yes and the person you're talking to, and they're oftentimes two different people.

So if you're talking to your manager, like you said, enroll them in the conversation and say, hey, look, I did my market research and, you know, other social media coordinators out there are getting paid $10,000 more than me to do like less than me. So I'm just, you know, being frank with you here. I really like working here, but we need to do something to adjust my compensation because I'd really like to stay here, but this is not sustainable for me.

And so you enroll them because now they're thinking their manager brain clicks on and they're like, must retain good employee. And so they can take that to their boss and they can say, look, Erin's thinking about quitting if we don't give her a 10K bump. And so I want to retain her because she's really productive and she's a great value add to the company. And then they can go to finance and advocate for you.

So you have to give them a case to advocate on your behalf to somebody else. And you can't just say, hey, give me a raise because they're thinking, I can't control that, I gotta go talk to Dave and he's gotta talk to Karen and they gotta talk to all these people, you know? So just working with them and making it a collaboration. Yeah, I think that's spot on.

So often they're not the one that can do it but you want them on your side. You want to turn them into an advocate for you. One little tweak that I, because I'm weird, you know I'm weird about communication here and she knows this. So when you say something like, I love working here but I'm not gonna be able to continue on

with the salary that I'm at. What my brain automatically does is, so how I would tweak that is instead of the but, would change it to and I also. And yeah. Because, yeah. Which anybody can use for any of these conversations and I think and Erin already knows this

because you're brilliant with these tips. So if it's, I love working here and I also know that the Radome app is not sustainable. Like that right there is super confident. It's softer, but it's also super confident, I feel like, when you're able to say, and I also know, just I have that knowledge within myself of knowing that doesn't gonna be it.

And I can also know as someone who is an employer and has been on every side of it, whenever you feel like somebody's giving you an ultimatum, like you give a raise or they're leaving, nobody likes that decision. Like it's, it. Yeah, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, for sure. Yeah, have you seen that backfire with anybody?

Yeah, so I'm like you, where I have just played both sides of the coin so much being a business owner. I worked as a director, so I had to hire people all the time, let go of people. And then as a freelancer, I've had to get hired up and hired by over 25 companies. And so I've truly just been on both sides of this equation so many times. And yeah, ultimatums just typically don't work in general. I think anybody listening to this might say,

oh, there's an exception for my cousin who works in tech. It's like, yeah, there's exceptions for everything me and Jefferson say. Everything that comes out of her mouth, there's an exception for it. You gotta give disclaimers for every little thing. But yeah, I think just typically like strong arming people is like a last resort and it should not be you should

always go into things more softly because you you want to help people bring down their defenses whenever you're having a communication that's like literally what Jefferson's entire book is about is how to get people to de-escalate and to get softer and then you can have a real conversation. The way when people try and push which I support and you do too, of stating your needs of what you want, I want a raise. That's wonderful. I love that you're able to voice that.

When you push it on somebody of, I need a raise or I'm gone, they will do either one of two things. They're going to refuse it because of the way you asked right there because then they're gonna start to automatically, they're gonna put you as a, we're us and you're now over there, you're not part of us anymore. You don't wanna be part of the team. Or two, they're gonna do it and agree to it

and acquiesce because you put them in a position that's very difficult and they're gonna resent that they said yes. Because it's funny how, and I know you and I have spoken about this, how when you're the employee, the employer never pays enough money. You can never get enough. Which is not necessarily true, but you get the sentiment.

Versus on the other side, when you're the employer, you feel like you're already paying too much. Because now you're thinking of, I have to afford the business. It's not just the employee. I have all the taxes I have to pay for all the costs of goods sold. I have to pay.

Oh my goodness, yeah, if you offer benefits, if you, I mean, not to mention, you're gonna have all the different sales tax You have your employer to like everything that goes into it and you're thinking I have to think of this whole entire world And this person only is just wanting Another dollar, but they don't understand they think that they're only asking for a dollar raise They only understand the implications on blah blah. They're thinking about a million things Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with either side.

Nothing at all. I absolutely, and I know you believe the same, everybody should be paid a wage that is reasonable to them and an honest wage that reflects the work that they do and the value they bring. That's what good businesses do, and that's what good leaders do. But it's funny how we have such a way of flip-flopping,

depending on what side of the table we're sitting on, especially communicating that. Yeah. And it's funny because I tell people like the second you become a manager, the second you own your own business, it will click. You will understand why you asking for your raise that way didn't work, because now you're on the other side of the table and you've got a million things going on and you understand it it's not just that easy for you to okay I'll go in you know and change your salary right now it's a whole sometimes it's a whole operation and sometimes it's not you know sometimes I see a lot of companies

giving people a really hard time who are very much being underpaid so I really really advocate for people to advocate for themselves. I think that's wonderful. And that's what you do. I mean, that's why you have the following that you have. And that's why we're friends. For anybody listening, she and I kind of came up together at the same time.

You and your workplace world, me and my communication world. And it's just been awesome, Erin, to see what you do and the people that you help. So if you haven't, I want you to go follow Erin McGough. She has incredible content for workplace and career advice. And it's just a pleasure to have you on, Erin. Thank you so much for spending some time with me.

It has been amazing to see your growth and it's so well deserved. You deserve everything that you're getting, the book deal, the TV, podcasts. I'm just so happy for you because your advice is so amazing and I see it impact people who I know. So you're doing great and I'm so glad that you picked up your phone in your car and made that first video. Thanks, Erin.

I appreciate it. Thanks for coming. Thank you so much for having me.