The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - How To Have Hard Conversations With Friends ft. Bobby Bones

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

What can one of the world's best interviewers teach you about communication? In this conversation, I sit down with Bobby Bones to break down the habits that have helped him interview thousands of people, build lasting relationships, and lead a team that's worked together for more than 20 years. We talk about asking better questions, building trust, handling difficult conversations, and the simple shifts that make every conversation stronger. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Square. Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at https://square.com/go/JEFFERSON Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. https://cozyearth.com/pages/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I need to say the boss thing, but you also don't want to damage that relationship. The boundaries have to be discussed many times over, just to be even reinstated. I remember, I think, I don't think I'd win a day in high school where I didn't listen to Bobby Bones, Amy and Lunchbox, by the way. What town in Beaumont? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Our pop days.

94.1, top 40. That was like, that was the first time I was ever introduced, but I don't think I ever had a morning that it wasn't Bobby, Amy, and Lunchbox. What is it like to be able to even now have like really close, I would imagine, very close friends of people you've done a lot of life with and Eddie and best friend and you have, you do the music and everything that you're still to this day, are able to have really awesome conversations with and just do it for a living. I think one of the coolest things that I've been able to do is hire all my friends, just generally speaking. Yeah. I've been with the whole show

now for over 20 years, which is crazy, but also I do the math. It means I'm getting older too. Like my mortality comes out whenever I start thinking about how long we've been together. Yeah. But it's awesome. because my goal was to always just like work alongside people I liked. Yeah. Because I saw it like my stepdad. He worked in a mill. He did not really like the job that he had.

He really did not like the people. He didn't have a close bond with them. So I always wanted to have something that I like enjoyed with people I enjoyed. But it was kind of a weird way that it all happened because it was never my strategically, you know, grandiose plan to have all my friends come into the show. We had no money. And so you just call the people that you know to come in and jump in with you. And so when I started that show and I was by myself and I had no co-host, it was,

who can I hire for cheap? And who do you hire for cheap? Well, you're friends. They'll come do it for free even. And so it was such an odd way to build that show. And at the time, I resented it a bit because the company wouldn't give me money to hire professional co-hosts. Right.

Because they didn't know if they believed in the product. So I described all the people that I liked and that made me better. And now we've been together for a long time. Made a long time. It's crazy to think about when you think about, like thinking of the numbers. It's been over 20 years with pretty much all of them. Even Eddie and I, he's my best friend. And we've done the radio show together for 13, 14 years.

But we did television for another three or four before that. So we've been together, you know, 17, 18 years. Yeah. Now, not only do you have that close relationship, but, I mean, they're also really professionals like at a craft. No, I think that that's that can be really easily overlooked of I think just any radio or television for that matter of there's a certain craft to making sure that you keep kind of the ball in the air or do you find that it's just pure friendship that you're able to keep things rolling? Oh, I think they've gotten really good at what they do. I also think it's a couple of

hats like I have to wear the hat of being the boss sometimes. Then I have to wear the hat of being the friends sometimes, but I think over the years, there's been a great understanding of when I have to switch those hats. Right. Because, number one, I got to make sure the ship is taking care of. Right. And there's some difficult decisions that have to be made at times. So they are great at doing their job, but they're also great at knowing when they have to do their job at a higher level because it needs to be done that way. So I think that's been the hardest part about working with your friends is you got to be their boss too. And that ain't comfortable sometimes. But at this point we've done it for so long it's a well-oiled machine it works and nobody's left you know

sometimes people will message in and be like man sometimes you guys sound like you hate each other because we're for literally arguing about something yeah man do you think we'd all be here 21 22 years later together if anyone really hated each other yeah i mean to have the freedom to actually communicate openly and honestly with millions of people listening through radio or podcast um that that is something that I don't really take for granted, because we've worked hard to be able to do that. And the relationship is what really allows that to happen because I've worked on other projects with other people,

and you can't really do that unless there is a complete trust and comfortability. And that has to do, like it reminds me of, hear my grandparents argue, you know? And like, you go, God, I think they hate each other. It's like, no, they just, it's a morning thing. They have the freedom to say how they feel and not worry that the other ones are going to run away or leave.

Or, my grandmother will look at me and just insult my grandfather about something. You know, he doesn't take his medicine, you know, he never. And he's just, he's in a different world, you know, because there's just been such that bond. But I, my audience, Bobby is somebody who really cares a lot about how they show up in communication. And what really just inspires me so much about what you've built and where you've come from is you get to have, and you've cultivated a show that does my, model real conversation. And I find that can be lacking sometimes in the way we model relationships. I wonder if you're not all the details of your childhood, but simply a smaller town, right, in Arkansas.

I've like, do you find that that has influenced the way that you approach conversations, handle small talk, or ask questions? Do you find that that's been something that's driven that? I think being from where I'm from, maybe a small town, a rural area, and maybe from the south even, I feel like that is a part of it with like just a warmness because I have friends that are way nicer than me and they're from the northeast and they are not near as warm. Like you understand how, like how genuine they are after a bit of time with them. Yeah, I think, you know, coming from where I come from in rural Arkansas, everybody talked to everybody.

Yes. So if you didn't wave when someone drove by, that was weird. And, you know, when I go back home, if I'm driving through and people are waving at me, I was like, wait, what? Who is that? And I forget, that's just when you drive by a car, you wave at them. Yeah. And if you don't, that's weird.

Even if you don't know who it is. Yeah, I definitely think that in the south, from getting a haircut to ordering at a cafe, like, they're going to learn your life story, one way or another. Haircuts, yep. Yeah. church, whatever it is, you're going to find out

everything about everybody. And for me, I know that is, that has been helpful in terms of being able to keep conversation because a lot of people struggle keeping conversation

in the air kind of passing the ball back and forth. I feel like I'm just genuinely curious though. Like, I think I see someone and kind of wonder, you know,

if you cut a tree and you see all the circles, I kind of just wonder like what their circles are. Like, I genuinely am curious about folks. And so I think that's where a lot of mind comes from. You know, I also sometimes feel like I don't want to bother people.

So there's that because it's kind of a, it's a weird juxtaposition of being like wildly insecure and very confident because I have them both. Yeah. Like I feel like I don't want to bother people yet. I'm very curious. But it's like even with my job, like I don't think I would be good at my job if I was the most secure person ever.

Like I'm wildly insecure. But to do my job, I've got to be really, I got to think I'm really good at doing the job. So it's been, it's like an odd mix or like I got a screw loose, but it's the right screw. Right. It's kind of how I feel about where I'm from as well. But I, sure, I think that helps with communication. Everybody talks to everybody all the time.

If someone talks to me randomly, especially if they like don't know what I do for a living, because that happens a lot. But if it's just somebody random, I'm never annoyed. But I always feel like I'm annoying everybody. Exactly. It's a weird, you know, if someone's like, hey, you know, how's your day going? even in an elevator, I'm like, oh, this is nice. Someone's talking to me. But I would never like randomly, like, bother somebody. But I do like it when someone does it to me.

Yes. So what's a lesson there? The lesson, well, the lesson is, in my comedy act, there was kind of a inspirational talk to, I talk about whenever you want help with something, like ask people for help. And then I say, it was always weird for me to ask people for help because I thought people didn't really want to spend time with me. They didn't want to be bothered. But then when people ask me for help, I'd love to help. Because I would say, hey, tell people your goals. If you tell people your goals, they are more likely to help you. And it's the same thing where I never wanted to ask for help because I thought they were bothered by someone asking for help. But when I would, people ask me for help, I love it. I can't wait to give people help or advice or tips. So,

yeah, we just worry too much about how people look at us and view us, and it's kind of counterproductive. Do you think I find this very interesting? Because I love talking about this. Like, this is my nerdy talk of like, how does this happen? So if somebody in the elevator approaches you and strikes up conversation, you almost get like a boost from it when you leave of like, hey, I've connected with another human in the world. I'm here. But when it's, you have the chance. You have the chance. it's very difficult because it comes a moment of like why would they care. Yeah, I don't want to bother them. So what do you think like the script is that's preventing that of like is it that nobody would care?

I think it's rejection. Yeah, it's rejection. It's whatever. It keeps us from doing anything and everything. Yeah. It's rejection and failure. And if I do try to connect and they don't connect, what does it say about me that I'm not good enough? Right.

But I'm not, you know, strong enough. I'm not good looking enough. I'm not. Yeah. And it's not that at all, actually. But yeah, it's complete fear of rejection, complete fear of failure. But again, when someone does it to us, we love it. Yeah, we're afraid to do it to anybody else because we feel like if they don't react the way we want them to, that's on us.

And it's really not. It's on them. They could be having 10,000,000 things. It's not a real number that's happening in their day that's keeping them from reacting the way we want them to. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Square. But you didn't know that when I was a young attorney, I also owned a coffee shop. And one of the point of sales systems that we used was Square. And in fact, this morning, I'm out of the country. I know with my family? We hopped into a little Australian cafe, and you know what they used? Square is a nice little full circle moment for me. And

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business better with Square. And now let's keep going. Have you always been somebody who's Excellent at questions. Oh, I don't know if I'm even that now. I just am like genuinely and generally curious. I think it being true about me makes my questions better even if they're not good questions because you know I'm coming from a place

of that's how I really want to know. And so even with like my interviews, I don't, I kind of just ask the things that I want to know. And even if it's at a place with someone where it could be something that's a little personal or it kind of hits a nerve. I feel like for the most part,

they don't take offense to it because they know I'm coming from a place of curiosity or caring and not coming from a place to get a click. Yeah. Both can be true. Right. But I feel like it's not so much my questions, but my intent, because sometimes my questions are bad.

But my intent is good. And, yeah, I just, like, I like, I like connecting with people. I feel like even doing this, I've made so many friends from doing this. And you would think that this is very surface. It's professional. Nothing really matters because cameras are on. You do your thing.

Your cameras are off. And it doesn't happen with most. But I've made some great friends that have started in this environment because you get really intimate doing this. Big time. I mean, it's depending on me. I'm depending on you. Yeah. It's only us doing this dance.

We're doing this together. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I feel like my questions are fine, but I feel like my curiosity is, high, but I think in normal life, I think that counts too. Like, you know, when you talk to people. Well, people, I think more people than you think, at least the people I hear from, really struggle a lot with questions. And you're somebody who does it as a, I mean, a master of the craft. I know you could say, my questions aren't that good. Well, to me, my brain sees that as,

okay, well, there's some element of this that's also a skill because it might be self-deprecating. It might be like, hey, I know I'm going to get a lot of this wrong. And what that's doing is saying, I'm no more important than you are. And I'm lowering myself, or maybe it's a joke or maybe it's humor. It's one way to like break the eyes because every interview that you give, you're looking for that way to kind of remove that polish. I imagine when you're talking to some of the biggest stars, country stars out there, do you find that you have to ask a few questions to kind of get a layer deep?

Like it has to be. Like you're like, that's a canned answer. Yeah, I'm looking for what we have in common that can kind of put the guard down. In like a joky way? Not always. Sometimes it can be like real trauma. Sometimes it can be a television show we both like. Sometimes it can be, and I tell you what's worked for me the last past few years,

is I did the Dancing Mother Stars, the dance show. And if somebody comes in, it's done that show, and I mentioned to you, before we started recording. Like, there's real, like, trauma bonding in that show. I believe it. And so I can kind of find our like-minded entity and focus on it. And also, people when they don't feel like they're trying to get got, they open up. I'm not trying to got anybody.

Yeah. You know, sometimes people will give me great stuff. Sometimes they won't. But my questions, I don't feel like they're good, though. I just feel like, again, I feel like I am genuinely curious. and if something does it hit, I have no problem, one, sitting in silence with someone.

That's the best trick in any sort of communication. If you have no fear of sitting in silence with someone, they will just talk. And so that works. I've done this so many times that I also know what it's like

for things not to go well and I know I can always get it back. But I've done it wrong so many times that I know that even if it's going terribly wrong, I can get it back. I've been through some terrible ones that have turned, out great. So just doing it so many times. But it's also helped in like real life as well,

like human conversations, like just talking to folks. Because a little bit I can just turn on the, hey, I'm curious. I'm just going to ask some questions. And I find the like the thing we have in common, it works like if I'm being, let's say, interviewed for a, not even interview, but like I'm doing a job interview for a TV show. I'm doing it. I'm in auditioning for something. I can just find like a sports team they like, a shoe they're wearing, something with their kid that I understand, man, that is the real key to any sort of relaxed conversation is to find what you have in common with that person. So for finding something separate from the person is actually a key to that commonality. If it's actually maybe separate from, it's like the third person in the

room. For example, dancing with the stars could have been something. Or maybe I had seen something on your shelf that you were, I don't know, a Houston Astros fan or something where you see it and then that's where you're able to kind of create that bond with it. Yeah, especially if I know enough about it. Yeah. You know, if I'm just like, hey, look at that fish, but I'd never fish, right? Yeah, yeah. But if you got a fish and I go, hey, I see you caught that fish, like my stepdad was a striper guide for many years. Very cool. I can find that thing that puts us in the same place that allows us to go to the same place together because I probably didn't come here to talk about fishing. Right. But we can get there much easier if we kind of feel like we're in the same boat.

I think that then goes into upbringing where you've been around and how much you just talk to ordinary people. I think that's where I see it. So my background, Bobby, as a trial attorney. And so the best way I can relate to cases to the jury relating to just human elements of every day or the ways that maybe I want to get a person I'm taking their deposition, get them more relaxed, is to use a little bit of humor and know that, yeah, I'm going to get a lot of things wrong. So don't. That kind of lowers the temperature of it. You said something a minute ago I want to make sure and pull back on is, you said, I know I can get it back.

How do somebody correct course and get on back in a conversation? There's no magic. You just keep going. If you don't feel like it's magic. If you don't quit, it's over. Right. If you don't quit, it's not over. And so, yeah, there have been a lot of interviews or, you don't feel.

just situations that don't go well at the very beginning. Yeah. But I know I can get it back. Just stay in. It's just staying in and trying to find, you know, whatever you have in common with that person. It can be in a professional setting. It could even be, you know, when I was dating my wife. You know, I don't think she wanted to go out with me immediately.

I don't know if you've seen us beside each other. It kind of doesn't match. But, you know, I don't think I was super smooth with her when I first met her, but I just kept trying. and so yeah as long as you stay in regardless of the situation i think you can get it back it's just that when it doesn't go well early we tend to go the same going good abort mission um but i think that's the key well i think that's the key to pretty much any success that i've had is just figuring it out as i go having the confidence to go in and know that it may not work at the beginning yeah and then just

staying in when it's uncomfortable so yeah in this situation a lot of times because most people come in it it could be like this, it could be a job interview. People are tight. As soon as I start, everybody's tight. People are like, oh, they're tense. Yeah, I'm about to do a job interview. I'm about to do an interview. But, you know, one of these.

And so people come in and they're tight. So it's how do we get each other to kind of be on the same place so we can actually get the most out of it? And it's finding whatever it is you have in common. Do you think that having, when you're having conversations with like multiple people, if you have Eddie or Amy or lunchbox in there, that helps? No, not really. I mean, it depends

of what we're trying to do. If I'm trying to, like, be super sincere or if I'm sad, or I would rather just do it by myself, certain dynamics. It works wonderfully. Certain, not so much.

But, you know, it's, if you're trying to have a real connection, it's hard to do it with seven people sitting around you. Generally speaking, it's much easier. if it's, you know, one-on-one.

And that one-on-one can be me talking to a microphone to the person listening or even, like, to me talking to Amy. Yeah. You know, whenever you have people chirping your ear from the side, it gets to be a little bit more difficult. I can imagine. I want to pause. I want to bring us back for a moment.

How would, based on your experience in the 20-plus years you've been having this show, how do you have those harder conversations with friends, especially when you're working with them? to make sure you're not damaging. Like you need to make a decision that sometimes you need to be, I need to say the boss thing,

but you also don't want to damage that relationship. The boundaries have to be discussed many times over, just to be even reinstated. Because there are boundaries. The boundaries are, when we're at work, in a work situation,

I'm going to be the boss. They're certain. When we're performing, you can do whatever you want to do. But mostly it comes to, like everybody else's putting in their time and their effort, you just got to match that. I mean, that's really what everybody's job is, match everybody else's effort, don't be late, have a good attitude, those types. Other than that, you're good, right? Show up, do your best.

If for some reason you're not performing, I will tell you. If I feel like someone else having to pick up your slack, I don't like that, and I will tell you. So they understand that I'm going to communicate with them the things that are good and things that are bad, when I'm the boss. Yeah. When I'm the friend, who knows? Like, you know, Eddie and I go a lot of places together and we're able to switch back and forth. But if there's something wrong with some content, it's never weird anymore for me to go in and go,

hey, this isn't good. Also, I want to be super efficient. I'm not going to, you know, kind of dance around it. But I think generally speaking, I just kind of operate that way because we all have things we want to do outside of work. so let's get all the work, things done first, and let's do the best that we can do for each other, so we can go be the best we can for our families.

Not only that, it's, you know, there's an open rule on our show that if anything is affecting you're bothering, you don't come in. Just don't, because if you can't be, you can't be good for me if you're not good for you at home. Yeah. So.

If home's not good, the conversation's not going to be good. Nope. It's impossible to not carry you that. Nothing's going to be good. Yeah, so if you're not good at home, you do not need to come in at all. And I think that's, where being a friend kind of, you know, creeps back into play. Because when you come in,

you've got to be great. Right. And it makes you really attuned to the other people if something's off. And I can tell when something's off with them immediately. But I think that's the 20 plus years of working together. Well, but it also, I think, highlights the significance of if something's off in the conversation, that's something to take care of first. Usually when you try and just push through and act like everything's fine, I tend to find that that makes things worse than improve what's about to happen. The only person who can come in sick or affected is me. Everybody else, stay home. If you're affected, you need to unaffect yourself. If you got... Why can't you? Oh, I got a lead thing. You're the captain? I got it, it doesn't move without me.

And that's okay. Like, I know my role. They're all depending on me in that way. So, yeah, we have a rule if you're not feeling good, mental or physical. You got to take care of. at you before you can come in because you're not going to be good for me if you're not good for you. Well, what do you do when you don't feel good? I feel good. Oh, so you just... Yeah.

Is it just a thing? Yeah. Yeah. I got to be the leader. So I will find time to feel bad. Okay. Mm. All right.

Got it. That's harder. Yeah. It's hard. Because then if you're not doing it there, you're the outlet somewhere else. It is, but you know, I do a great job of making sure that I'm taking care of myself. outside of that room. I'm in therapy twice a week.

Yeah. Or my wife, I have a therapist that my wife and I go to a couple of therapists. I have my own therapist. So I'm not going to two different therapists. Preach man, same. I'm a big therapy guy.

So I'm doing the things hopefully to keep myself mentally ready. I'm also doing the things physically. Meaning I know that my diet matters if I don't eat good, I'm not going to perform well. I know that if I'm not exercising, I'm not going to perform well.

I know if I'm not working my brain. and going to therapy and talking about what's bothering me. And if I'm not reading books, I'm not going to perform well. So I'm doing all that work ahead of time. That if something does come up, I think I can get through it until my next break. But they're counting on me. I have a staff of like 15, 16 people that if I don't go, I let down 15 or 16 families. So I don't take that for granted.

And at times it can be extremely difficult. But in that part, I am the leader. Back home, though, in the home dining, my wife is that. my wife is exactly to me and our family that I am to that show she doesn't feel good a lot of days we have a new baby

baby's nine weeks old yeah and I know she doesn't feel good sometimes and I'm there and I try to help but she freaking dials it in and does it so you know in every organization you got to have a couple of those my wife is at home I'm that when we're out I think everybody's that in some some version some part of their life

yeah I would definitely just to like cover you and me, what they do is much harder. I'm just, that's like way harder. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. And for all of you listening, if you are adults, I need to, I need you to lean and have this conversation with me. It is time. Yes, this is the time in your life.

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And now let's keep going. We handled questions. So we talked about the power of silence. Usually you get a whole lot more. about have a genuine curiosity, maybe even sometimes when you don't feel like it. We talked about some ways that you can kind of get below the surface. When it comes to hard conversations as a leader, not just friends that you've been forever with, I'm talking just anything that there's some kind of crisis and you guys say,

I have to be really direct and not apologize for it. Because I know people will go, look, I'm sorry I've got to say this, but I got to, how have you found to be direct in your communication? I've found that the quicker we can get to the problem and get it solved, the better it is for everybody, even if it's wildly uncomfortable at the beginning. Without bringing personality into it. No personality at all.

Yeah. Yeah, none. How I will do it if there is something uncomfortable to talk about is, hey, you're not going to like this, but. Yeah. Because just by me saying that, it almost braces them for a few words. Like this is not going to be fun to talk about But even that

You know, point seven seconds of setup Allows them to go Okay, we're getting into something that is not comfortable I'm ready And sometimes it's not near as bad as they think By me saying that But that's kind of the precursor And then I just try to get to it and say it immediately

Because neither one of us want to dick around We're trying to figure out what I'm trying to talk about So let's figure out the problem Let's address it Let's get through it and get to the other side of it As fast as possible so we can get back to doing the right things. Yes.

It's very uncomfortable, but it's very uncomfortable for a limited time. Right. And I prefer it to be very uncomfortable for a limited time than kind of uncomfortable for a long time.

Because you can do either one. I've had people that I've worked for that love to dance around it. We're going to talk about three things. The first two are going to be positive. And then the whole time I know the third thing's about to be bad. Let's just do it.

Yeah. I don't really, I don't need the syrup because I want to figure out what's wrong, fix it, and get back to the good spot. So there's not a lot of buffer. That's how I know you're Southern.

As you said, I don't need the syrup. That's how I know. Yeah, no syrup. And there's no buffer because I don't feel like for me that's healthy to either hear it or give it. So it can be uncomfortable. It should be uncomfortable because whatever it is is an uncomfortable thing that we're talking about. Right. So let's get to the point.

And then let's get off of it because we just fixed it. How awesome is it that we can fix it? And I think now, too, my people know that. They know I'm not going to come in and, hey, how's the dog? And then hit them with some bad news. If I'm really asking about the dog, they know I'm curious about the dog. Right. That I'm not setting them up or something where I'm going to be like, well, your performance has been bad.

We might have to fire you. Yeah. So that's how I do it. It's like, all right, this is not going to be comfortable to talk about. And then I say it immediately because once it's out there, it's easier to fix. More than you know, I love that approach. Because what I preach is the kindness thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. Like the more I string you along, the more painful it's going to be.

For both of you? Oh, for you and them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you mind if I share the version that I use for? I would love to hear it. So it's very similar to yours. It's, I know this isn't going to be fun to talk about, and we're going to do it together. That's what I add.

Whenever I add the and we're going to do it together instead of the butt, it tells them that, hey, you and me, we're going to lock in for a moment. There's going to be an end. There's going to be a beginning. And this is not me leaving you to say, bad you, good me. I'm saying, I'm separating out the problem from both of us. This is going to be uncomfortable to talk about and we're going to do it together. That's what I have found at least. So this is from my two cents. I have found, and I mean it when I say it, is that when I'm done saying what the issue is, because if I were to say this is not going to be fun. Russ Jefferson, but A, B, and C's happening. That is not good. We need to fix it, but I believe in you. Yes. Like, and it may sound hokey, but if I didn't believe in you, we wouldn't even be having

this conversation. We would just move on. I'd move on to somebody else that I think could do a better job, a quicker job, make it easier for me. Yep. But the fact that I'm having that conversation means that I do believe in you. So this wasn't good, but I believe in you, so let's make it good. So good.

That works a lot. Yeah. Because again, everybody, everybody's kind of feeling like they don't want to be there. Oh, no doubt. I like, I'm telling you this because, I believe in you. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it. Oh, that's a good one. I know you can handle it.

Yeah, that type of stuff is like it empowers them to go, oh yeah. Okay, whatever he's about to say, he said I can handle it. So I am. That's a good one. That's a good build up. To be able to kind of like push that a lot. But I think it, what we're talking about hits the very home of, a lot of small businesses, a lot of families, anybody listening, that can apply these kind of

frameworks to very difficult conversation. The other thing I wanted to make sure in push a little bit is when you don't have, you don't feel like there's any chemistry with that person you're asking questions to. Let's say you're having an interviewer. You're having an interview. I'm your phrase that. you're taking an interview, you have somebody crossing you, and there's just no compatibility. Are there certain, like, tethers, you're trying to, like, please let me find something that we can tack along with. Yeah, I just take over and start talking myself. Especially if we're doing, like, one of these and let's say I'm getting nothing from you, or you may not be feeling good. Like, I don't know the reasons that we're not connecting.

I will then just start talking and entertaining myself, and you're just now part of the audience. That's smart. And then, I mean, it's due a lot of... But that's business, too. I mean, you have to, yeah. You know, we got an hour we got a fill, and you're not giving me much. I know the person that's watching, you know, they're not liking it. Right.

So I'm just going to tell stories. And so you're welcome to hop in, but that happens occasionally. If, like, you're watching my podcast ever or listen to a podcast and I'm interviewing somebody. Which is Bobby Cass, by the way. Yeah, thank you. And you hear me just start to just talk and tell stories. It means for whatever reason, we're not connecting right then. A lot of times, though, it does turn into...

It'll pick up. Yep, because the person will then hear me talk about something and find something that they want to talk back about and go into it. So, yeah, that's been a technique that I've learned. I think that's really smart because sometimes you're just not vibing. You go, hey, let me tell you a story. You know, the other day I was doing this and they go, well, I didn't have anything to say back then,

but I do have a story because it's much easier to relay stories a lot of times than it is to give the back and forth kind of small talk. And I think conversation can be really hard for people. But telling stories, I think is kind of timeless. So it's a lot easier to hit that default. Yeah, that's what we do. If we're just sitting around with friends, too, right? We're just telling stories and everybody jumps in.

So if someone is not giving me what I feel like is good for both of us, I'm just going to entertain for a while until you like something on my story and you're going to hop in and give me your version of it. Or you're just going to sit there quietly. Or not. And that doesn't happen often where they just want to sit there quietly. Yeah, I can remember. imagine. I think that

when I think of radio hosts, which when I was a kid, that's who I wanted to be actually when I grow because I was like, how awesome they just get to talk all the time. I think that radio hosts have to have a different gear. They have to be able to put conversation

in a different gear because you can keep the ball in the air totally by yourself. If something were to go wrong or you realize nobody's giving you anything to go, okay, I need to lock in and fill 20 minutes or whatever it is and to talk nonstop really with hardly any likes or ums or oz

is that a skill that you've learned over time or you always felt like it's helped with improvisational work improv? Well just it's all improv right so lots of likes and um still but I went to American Idol you know I was over there for four years and I think one of the things that allowed me to stay there for more than a year was the fact that they knew if something broke down, they could just go, hey, throw it over to Bobby. And I think that was developed

through doing long-form content with having to fill 5, 7, 12, 18 minutes at a time. That's hard. It's hard. It's now pretty natural for me. Like if everything crashed around here and you're like, hey, can you kill 12 minutes?

I got like four stories I can go to immediately that I just naturally got saved up to go to. But it has helped me in that way. I mean, there was a time, I think it was my second year on American Idol. And again, that's really why they kept me around. It was the week where everybody comes to Hollywood and you're just like, it's just cutting people left and right like crazy. It's literally called Hollywood Week. And the celebrities then come in and they sing as part of that. And we're like seven minutes from going on in the year. And I'm not the main guy. I'm like fourth. string. I'm on every episode, but I'm just like helping the young people pick songs and mentoring them. And they say, hey, Ryan is sick. He's not going to be able to come and do the show. And I was like, oh, yeah, cool. So we punning till next week? Like, no, we need you to host a show. And from what I've learned is the only people to ever host that show are Ryan and Brian

Knuckleman from the first season. But it was so close to the show starting. They were like, hey, we need you to hop up there and host a show and be able to fill. There was no rehearsal. But like I was, I don't want to say born to do that, but I've trained to do that. I think doing live, long form content on the radio has trained me to be put in those situations and be fine. Even, you know, doing stand-up and I toured pretty, pretty hard for like three years where if things broke down and they did often, I'm fine.

like I've been through it and been put in situations that were really uncomfortable and I've gotten out of them. This is only mildly uncomfortable. So I'm fine. I'll get out of this one. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the improvisational gear is pretty easy to switch into at this point. I find that a lot of anybody's improv or comics that I just have no fear at all of bombing or because they've just done it enough where they can just roll with it. I think there's a lot of fear, but we've learned.

I've learned that it's not good to, it actually affects performance if you're so fearful. So you're deathly afraid at first. But you survive. Yeah. It's like life. Crap happens. Right. You survive, so you feel like when crap happens again, you can probably get through that too.

Right. Like that's a metaphor for life. Yeah, for everything. So, yeah, it's everybody's afraid. I don't know a single person in the creative space that isn't wildly insecure. and completely scared. That's probably true. It's just we've been to the club, yeah.

We've done it for so long, so many times that we're still that, but we've gotten through really hard things. So we're really not scared of those medium hard things anymore because we've gotten through it and then just fine. Yeah, and you're still here. We're still here. You think that when you go, okay, I know that I have to fill this X amount of time, has there been any trick that you've learned?

outside of just doing it forever, that you know, okay, I'm going to keep maybe at all times, I just have stories locked and loaded that should I need to, I got to do it. Because I can only imagine when you're running your show, you're thinking of eight different things. Not only the question you're going to ask, but how this is looking or how they're performing. And because of some level, you're having to think about the output and to know, okay, I have to, it's like you're producing it in your mind. So it's a constant. Constant. Yeah. I feel like to do an I story, if everything goes wrong, helps me all the time. Because that's what I know about I. So if it all breaks down, the first thing I'm going to go to is I see or feel this and here's why. If I'm just describing things generically, that never works. But if I go right to the eye, that's the one thing I do know about. Yeah. Me. So I'm good. I can eye you all day in any situation. It may take me five, seven seconds to get my bearings. But, you know, once I'm on, I think generally, the most comfortable thing is to talk about ourselves. We know it. We know ourselves in any situation.

If you're like, I don't really know what to talk about here, talk about I, because you know it, you're comfortable talking about it. You're not guessing. Yeah. Is there something that you find hard to kind of turn off in your brain? Yeah. I mean, all. I have trouble sleeping. Yeah. I have, for a couple of reasons, I think everybody says, you know, my thoughts spin. I go to sleep with podcast in my ear. Because if I just lay in silence, I tend to spiral out. Yeah. So I will listen to a podcast when I go to sleep.

I have trouble sleeping. I also have like some PTSD. You know, when I started to have any success in this job, it was weird. Because I think for me, I've been able to start at the bottom and I worked in a really small in Hot Springs, Arkansas, and nobody knew or cared. But then once I started to have a little more success and people would kind of care, then people were kind of weird,

then there's a couple, then there's a couple weirdos. It's at a nun. And then when I got a little more popular and the show started to branch out nationally, then it wasn't that the percentage of weirdos went up, but there's just more people. Yeah. And so, you know, I got jumped outside of work.

I have my house broken in two while I was on the air. I got held at gunpoint outside of an event once. I've had multiple death threats. So I had some really bad PTSD for a long time. That makes complete sense. And I tried it all. I mean, I don't drink, I've never had alcohol or tried a drug or anything because of my family's addiction problems. So I'm always really nervous about taking anything with, that could trigger any sort of addiction or dependence.

Yeah. And so my doctor knows that. my doctors and I remember I was really struggling with sleeping after I got, the last time I got jumped at work. And we tried everything. We tried all the holistic, didn't work.

I need chemicals, man. Yeah. And we tried, finally he was like, you know, we can finally go, we can do sleeping pills. I'd never try sleeping pill before. And I was like, man, I don't know. He said, you're right, but I was getting so sick because I wasn't sleeping. Yeah. You don't sleep. You don't drink water. You break down.

Yeah. And so I took sleeping pills for a little bit and man they work but there were full nights I would look at my phone I had FaceTime like seven people I don't remember any of it

I drove off with my gas the gas pump in my car once just like in TV so this isn't good yeah yeah it wasn't good so I've tried a lot of things I've tried MDMR you know a lot of therapy

it's hard to shut off at night for a couple of reasons One, safety, but also, like, I just have this constant fear of everything crashing down that I've built. At any moment. At any moment. Yeah. My wife is great because she constantly reminds me that if I'm fired today and I never work again, we're good. But my mind doesn't work like that.

Yeah. My mind is if we're not going as hard right now, I could end up back where I was. That's what I was, like, is it a, what they call kind of a scale? city mindset where it's like I'm I could lose it all and I'm gonna I don't want to go back there for sure what it is like we have a rule in our show you can't be late meaning if you're one minute late you should go home you get set home it's it's happened on our show for 10 years at this point yeah guests too I've sent guests home I have sent guests home I have sent guests home I have sent guests home I give them a little bit more grace yeah there's a little more flexibility

yeah that gets too but I've sent guests home if they're really late yeah um But we have that rule. And I've never been late to my job once in my entire life. Wow. But it's not a bragging thing. I'm so scared to being late. Because if I'm late, the show will struggle. If the show struggles, I will lose my job. If I lose my job, I will have no money. If I have no money, I end up back in the trailer park where I started. Yeah. Like, it's all safety seeking. All rooted in that. Yeah. Yeah. It's not rational. No, but that's, but that doesn't make it any less real.

And I can look at it and identify it as irrational. But again, it doesn't make it any less real. No. And I can go to therapy twice a week. Yeah. But at least I can acknowledge that it exists now where I don't think I could for a long time. Yeah. But that's, I mean, for anybody listening, like, this is, that's what triggers are.

Like, I mean, to bring your nervous system back to back in Arkansas. I have complete fear-based success. Yeah. That's all my success is. It's completely fear-based. It's a superhero. It's a super, super-power. Absolutely.

At the same time. Yeah. So I'm not saying, like, anybody's, should feel sorry for me. Like, I am so grateful that I have been able to develop that superpower instead of any of the others that, like, my family went through. Usually could have been. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely that it's the thing that you got found success is also the thing that saved you, kind of that there's that paradox of it because you wouldn't be the same person without it. Thanks for coming on the show me. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Thank you.