The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - How to Speak Up with Confidence ft. Tori Kelly

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Have you ever talked yourself out of speaking before you even opened your mouth? I think a lot of us have. We convince ourselves that everyone else is smarter, more experienced, or has something more valuable to say. So we stay quiet. The problem is, the more you do that, the easier it becomes to believe the lie that your voice doesn't matter. In this conversation, Tori Kelly shares how she spent years believing people only wanted to hear her sing—not hear what she thought. We talk about where that belief came from, how she learned to challenge it, and what it takes to find the confidence to speak up when your mind is telling you to stay silent. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. LMNT. Head to https://drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try risk free.  Upwork. Visit https://Upwork.com right now to post your job for free and connect with expert freelancers who can help you grow faster without adding full-time overhead. Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/JEFFERSON, and get three months free when you run your first payroll.  BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Thanks, Beth 365. Must be 19 or older Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to connectsuntario.c.c.com. I'm at the table and I know I have something to say. Yeah. But I'm dealing with that mental block.

Now, they know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just going to be quiet. How, Torrey, how did you get over that? Remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is you don't have anything to offer the conversation. People just know you as a singer. So just sing your little songs. I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter.

I think I've had to unlearn that you do have something to say. You can offer something. to the conversation. When it comes to self-worth, what have you learned now about your self-worth that you didn't know before? I think I've definitely struggled with self-worth, I would say. I've been an artist for most of my life and a singer most of my life. And I think me as a person and me as an artist,

a lot of times it was hard to separate that, especially growing up because, you know, if I'm singing for people and I'm getting applause and, you know, getting a reaction, I'm like, oh, cool, I'm worth something to that. And you were signed really early. I was signed when I was 12. Yeah.

Yeah, technically 11, actually. Like 11, 12. I was in the industry. Before you really know who you are as a person. Yeah, like at all, literal child. So, yeah, looking back, it's insane. But I did feel really protected. I mean, I had my parents right there with me.

So, you know, I was, I felt, yeah, I feel like I didn't have any crazy experiences as a kid in the industry. I just always felt like I was kind of one foot in, one foot out. Like I'd get signed, it didn't work out, you know, go back to the drawing board, go in my room, be sad, write some songs, which was, I mean, that's how I discovered songwriting. It's like, oh, I have stuff to say now. An outlet. Yeah, an outlet.

So, yeah, I think when it comes to self-worth, it was, yeah, it was hard for me to separate the approval and applause. and like the praise from that I would get from people from this gift that I have you know I I would that was my self-worth and then I think as I got older and you know started to have more doors closed like things just wouldn't work out labels just didn't really know what to do with me that really sucked because then I'm like oh, now I don't have self-worth, you know, or what am, you know, who even am I if I don't have this praise from other people or if I'm not singing, you know, who am I? So I definitely

struggled with that. I think that's where my faith really came into play because, you know, I grew up going to church, grew up learning about Jesus. And I think it was somewhere around high school where, I would say before high school, I would say before high school, high school, I still had a very real, pure relationship with God, but then it became, you know, way more personal around high school. And I think that's where that's really the only other place I knew to turn to get any sort of worth, you know, and reading like, oh, I'm, even if I don't have music and all of the stuff goes away, I'm still a child of God. I'm still, like, this is where I get my identity from so I think that was that started to shape really like the

foundation of who I was and I've always just kept coming back to that so when something you know doesn't go the way that I want or it's it's just so freeing to be like okay I don't actually have to rely on other people you know to get any sort of worth because I already know where that comes from and then anything on top of that is just bonus. Yeah, it's like, okay, cool. I'm glad you like my art, but that's, I'm not going to. Time myself.

Exactly. I'm not, I'm not going to like rely on that to, you know, make myself feel better. Or nowadays, it's, you know, social media too. It's like, I'm not going to, I don't need these comments and whether bad or good. I'm not going to let that affect, you know, who I am at my core. It's definitely hard still. Sure. I wrestle with it for sure.

But I think having that as my. real foundation has been like an absolute game changer. I want us to imagine that there's a 11 or 12 year old girl who's listening. What would you tell her that you want her to know about her self-worth? I think I would want to say if I'm picturing, I'm picturing myself at that age. I think I'd want to say you don't have to figure out who you are right now. Like there's, you have time, there's no rush.

I remember feeling like, I don't know who I am, I need to, you know, and then you start grabbing for things. I would say just, yeah, take a breath, slow down. You don't have to have all the answers. You won't, you will never have all the answers. And then, and then, yeah, kind of what I was saying, you know, just, just a second ago of speaking from experience, like don't, don't put your self-worth in the hands of other people, you know, make sure that comes from from within, have some kind of, some kind of, some, some, something you can really hold on to, you know, and for me, that's always been Jesus. It's always been my faith. But yeah, I think, I think ultimately not letting other people determine that for

you, I think is, is important. I like that. Don't, don't loan out yourself for us. Yeah. Don't, don't put it in somebody else's hands. Yeah. But at the same time, you don't, because I think when I, when I hear that, I'm like, okay, well, if it's not coming from other people, I got to figure out, you know, who I am, what's my, even personality. personality-wise. Like, I just, I didn't know, you know, I was comparing myself to other people so much, too, as a kid. You know, that artist over there, there's these, like, you know, giggly, Disney kids with these big personalities. I'm like, I got to somehow be that because I was so shy and reserved. And, you know, instead of just owning that and being okay with that, I thought

that there was something wrong with me. So I tried to change myself and then it's not authentic. And yeah, so it's, it took me some time to, you know, be okay with just who I am. Would you say that you're still a little bit shy and reserved? For sure. Yeah. But the difference now is that I've just, I've just leaned into it. I'm like, okay, this is, this is who I am. So that's what people need to know. Tori Kelly is a very shy person. Yes, I am. I feel like a lot of people who are on these big stages, they actually are are more reserves behind the scenes. How do you do that? How do you switch that from because we'll be

at the show tonight? I mean, going from thousands of people to maybe just having a harder time when it's just you and 12 people in the room. Yeah, I don't know what it is. I think maybe when I'm up there and so I just, I kind of, I kind of zone out. I just, I feel like my, you know, my voice takes over. The words that I'm singing take over and I'm kind of transported. into this other place, I think. And then, you know, being on stage all the time and touring all the time, it is, it can be very overstimulating. Yeah.

I mean, it's like a high. It can be like a drug. People get addicted to it, right? And so the, the, the, the, after what you do afterwards, I think is important. I think I actually crave the quiet now because I'm constantly, you know, in front of people and like, just in performer mode. So I think having, you know, even immediately after the show, I'll tell my team like, hey, I just need like 10 minutes, decompress. I do my cool down, my vocal cool downs, and kind of like come back to Earth.

And then I'm ready to, you know, be back in real life. Well, first, I went on, I can't let this go. I've never heard of a vocal cool down. Oh, yeah. It's just as important as the warm-ups. Tell me what that is. Yeah. So do you know warming up your voice? I'm sure you've heard of, right? No. I know like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. So I don't want to spit on the mic, but it's like a popular one is like, like, like that kind of like loosens up.

Your voice. Yeah, so warm up before the show. It's hard to do. Yeah. If you go like this, actually, it helps. And you can't smile. Now I'm smiling, Tori, I can't. You have to like really relax. Yeah, there you go. It's probably good for... I'm able to perform.

You can probably warm up before your podcast. I feel like talking actually tires me out more than singing funny. Oh, we'll say less words then. Okay. Yeah, I'm done now. Yeah, this is a wrap. Yeah. Okay, so what's cooled down?

Yeah, so cooling down. So when I'm doing the show, my voice is kind of like, I mean, I'm hitting high notes. It's sort of, it stays up here for pretty much the whole show. and then, you know, everything's elevated. And so if I were to get off stage and just keep talking, and I'm like, you know, talking louder without realizing it because I'm still in that heightened place. So if I just continue my night like that and I'm like, hey, thank you so much.

I'm talking everybody backstage, then my voice is, that actually does more harm to my voice than even being on stage. It's like what you do after is so important. So I'll kind of hide in my green room for a second. and I'll, it's literally the opposite of, you know, if I'm warming up and I'm going, ooh, the cool down would be, ooh, and I'm kind of getting my voice back to. That's awesome. Back to like speaking level, you know.

And so it'd be like, like, hmm, or like just everything is down and getting it, you know, back to just relax, don't overdo it. A lot of it's mental too. So if they're listening like to the green room door, it's just, You're probably all, yeah, they're all used to it by now. Like, oh, Tori's doing here. Doing her cool. How long do you do it?

It doesn't take, I mean, I'll actually continue to do it throughout the night even. If I'm, if I'm feeling a little funky. But, I mean, just a couple minutes even sometimes is all I need. That's wild. Yeah. And then I end up, I have like my tour talking voice. So even right now, I feel like I'm subconsciously kind of talking lighter. Light and airy.

Yeah, light and airy, you know. So this is not, is this year like, this is conversational interview. Yeah. Tori. Okay, got it. But it's also on tour, Tori, on tour. Then what's like? Version.

I feel like my normal, yeah, at home if I'm not thinking about singing, it's like a little more like this. It's a little, you know, thicker, lower, more annoying. Ready to go. Yeah. Gotcha. Ready to go. I might beat you up. I think you have a lower speaking voice than I realize and then I have to like remember you're trying to protect your vocals.

Okay, well yeah, for sure. That's a big part of it. Also, the way you just described, the shyness makes me think, and this question is really for my kids. Oh yeah, I know where this is going. Yeah. Is it, yes, from Singh, the movie Singh. Is that really your like character to relate to? It's literally me.

So shy. Yeah. And then she starts singing, the voice comes out and everything gets lost. Literally me to a T as a kid. I mean, I never got that shy where I like knocked over a microphone or anything. But I relate so, so hard to me. When they, when they approached me to do that role, I auditioned and everything. And I just couldn't get over how perfect.

It was just a dream role. Yeah. It's like, this is literally my life. So, yeah, I still, I still can't. get over just the other fact that I'm Mina, the elephant. That was cool. Like little Tori would be freaking out. Oh, no.

Because I was, I had never done voice acting before, so I was inevitably a little nervous going into it. I could do all the songs. That was just a different part. I mean, but you're an artist, you know, so it's just, it's like painting on a different canvas. Exactly, exactly. But I still was like, I don't know what to expect.

You know, the director's in the room with me. So it's, you know, it's a big movie production. So I get in there. but then I quickly realize any nervous energy that I have, I could just channel into this character who's already, she's supposed to be shy and nervous. So it really was pretty funny how that all worked out. This episode is brought to you by Element.

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somebody who's shy yeah and reserved because the the people I get to help Tori all the time are people who struggle or want to improve in the way they communicate with people. And what I find so beautiful about it is everybody has a different style of voice. Yeah. But the message is always something that could just blow you away. And I find that people who are very shy, very introverted, like don't count them out on having some of the most deepest thought-provoking, work.

If you were to talk to somebody who's super shy, what kind of advice would you give them to say this is something worth valuing? Like being shy is something worth valuing? Yeah. Not to be anything different than who you are. I would say, I do think it's important to have some kind of outlet. I think songwriting for me has been that. Because like you said, I think, I think. think people who are more shy and more reserved, I think we might have a harder time in the moment saying the deep thing that we're trying to think of. I still, I don't think I'm the best at, you know, on the spot, like just having the best words all the time. Yeah. But I think my superpower is in my songwriting. I feel like I can really get an emotion across. I can I can make people feel things that maybe they haven't felt before. I can help people put, you know, yeah, describe a feeling that they've been trying to

describe, but they can't. So, and sometimes I can't even put into words, but I can sing it for you. You know, I can sing it in a song. So I feel like lately, too, I've been writing things out helps me a lot too, because I'm a very slow processor. And I don't know if that goes hand in hand with, I don't know if all reserved shy people are also slow processed. I'm a very slow processor. Okay. Would you say you're shy slash reserved? No. Okay. So that's a different thing. Yeah. When I am a slower processor, that's for sure. Yeah. So I have, so I have all, all three then, yeah, shy reserved slow processing. Yeah. Amazing voice.

Got it. Yeah. It bounces. It really does. It bounces out. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, but yeah, writing things out has really helped me even honestly like even before i don't know if this is even advice anymore i'm just more speaking that doesn't matter experience but we're just talking my uh even when i'm about to have some kind of phone call or i know i'm gonna you know or i need to talk to somebody about something i'll write it out in like letter form and that already just helps me i'll just write it out and then i don't have to look at it again and it just kind of you know gets my wheels turning and makes me feel a little more confident. So you write out what you're going to say ahead of time?

Yeah, even if I don't end up saying it, it just, it helps me streamline my thoughts. Because I think I just have so much going on up here at all times. And the, you know, the overthinker in me wants to be like, okay, well, you can't say that because then, you know, that'll lead to this or someone will think this. It's just, it's all nonsense, but I. I share this belief like you. Yeah. That if you're able to write it out ahead of time,

Mm-hmm. There's something about it that can click the light bulb in a way you didn't expect. Yeah. To approach a conversation from a different advantage. Yeah. Honestly, sometimes I've even, I've even written out a long paragraph and then by doing so, I've realized, oh, I don't even need to have this conversation anymore.

I just needed to write out and process whatever this is. Yeah. And I actually think it would be better if I don't have this conversation. This is so good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It has helped me a lot to just get out my thoughts.

I think it goes with songwriting too of just kind of having an outlet, having a place to just let all of that out, I think is important. You got to flush it out. Yeah. Because I know that what I find is when you're able to, no filter, just write or type, get it all out, then you're able to look at, do I even need to have this conversation? Yeah. I probably don't need to say this. Now that I've looked at it, like in front of me and it's not in my head.

It's like, yeah. Yeah, that's not. Comes out wrong. That's just for me. It's not for them. Yeah. And I think that's a really smart way of family conversation. So does that, has that helped you as a shy person?

It has, yeah. And when it comes to, yeah, communicating with people or if something is burdening me, I have to, you know, let it out or consider talking to someone about it. Yeah, that's definitely helped me, just writing it all out. And I should probably, this is making me want to, like, journal again. I do so much on my phone these days. That's what we got in our hands. I know. But it makes me miss.

You know, I used to journal all the time growing up. But it's, yeah, it's that same concept, I guess. Yeah, I think that it can easily turn into writing or songwriting or anything else. So that's wild. I would have never pegged you for somebody who was super shy. Really? Yeah, that makes sense. Because, yeah, you see me on stage.

It's funny, my husband even said before we started dating, he he had this you know idea of me because he saw that I had kind of a following at that point when we met he yeah he just assumed I was you know kind of outgoing on the stage on stage cared about you know whatever like whatever artists care about and somewhere not in reality you know and maybe a little bit of a diva or something and then he obviously got to know me and he was like, okay, yeah, you're obviously not like that. But yeah, he just assumed that I was more outgoing because I guess I, I guess I kind of turn into the more confident version of myself on stage. I don't know why that is. I mean, I guess. I know a

of artists though that, that happens. They're very shy and then they turn into something else. Like, in other words, some inspired comes out of them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a little time I've known you. Yeah. You know, one is you know when you have your voice can, an incredible range. So your voice can get big. Right.

Yeah, big hair. You know, like, and so it's easy to be like, okay, this is just by instinct of, oh, I think I know who this is. And then you actually get to know them and they go, right. Hey, I'm touring. Hey, Pam, Mina. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Would you say you're somebody who throughout your life. has been like a people pleaser type? I mean, yeah, I think in the past, yes, I mean, when I was talking about, you know,

craving that approval from other people or even like approval from my parents or, because I'm the oldest. Of how many? Of just two. There's one younger brother. What about you? I'm the oldest of four.

Oh, wow. But I feel like if it was just, too I would always be like oh you know I'm the oldest yeah I guess as old as a four I don't have to say it yeah yeah I think yeah I definitely used to care more about what what people thought and therefore you know wanted to please them and and yeah gain approval whatever whatever that meant especially I think when it came to my music um but now it's kind of a new thing for me stepping into motherhood and really not caring about what people think. It's like right when I had him.

So really, yes, seven months of not caring what people think. Right. Yeah. But no, I think the first wave of it was when I turned 30 or something about stepping into my 30s. I felt more sure of who I was. It goes back to even like owning the shyness and just be like, whatever I'm, you know, this is my personality. take it or leave it. I'm not going to try to fit in this box for for anybody. And then that was the first wave of it. And then now, you know, becoming a mom, I'm like, oh, okay, now there's.

Yeah. For us, it was like, my family, you know. Yeah, for sure. For us, it was definitely, Sierra didn't really care about when anybody thought, like at that point in time, she's like, I have this child and this is all I care about. My hair's going to be in a messy bun. I have nobody. I don't care. I'm going to go to the store. I don't care. And then for me, as soon as our son was more like, I'm just, I just cry, like all the time. It's just dad. I think dad feels are real. I don't know what it does.

Oh, my goodness. But all of a sudden, you can read a book and you just. Just everything hits you different. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a beautiful thing. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about gusto. And I need to be transparent with you.

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Gusto. Try gusto at gusto.com slash Jefferson. Get three, free months when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash Jefferson. One more time, gusto.com slash Jefferson. Now, let's keep going. Well, I'm glad to hear that this transition you've had with people pleasing, because there are people out there who really struggle with that, that idea of doing what somebody else wants them to do and tying their identity to, tying their self-worth to somebody else. And I feel like you're somebody who's an example of, not necessarily that you've changed the whole dynamic, but you've grown into a different, different plays.

What's something that you've had to unlearn about the way you communicate now? Can I ask you the same question and see if it inspires me? Let's do it. Yeah. What's something you've had to unlearn and how you communicate? I've had to unlearn that my opinion's not always the best opinion. Oh. And having to invite more voices.

Yeah. Into not only my decision making, but also into my life. I think it's real easy. And honestly, sometimes more comfortable, Tori, to sit at a table alone, like at the, of your mind. Yeah. Because it's safer. And I learned that you have to fill seats at your table. of like who's going to be who's worth the seat in your life you know who's who's worth that and

that affects how I communicate and the way that I try to keep things very tight before I try to be a friend to everybody and now I'm still friendly yeah but that doesn't mean we always have to be friends yeah because you do the like keeping your friends few yeah in the same way you could tie that to, I mean, how much of even in, and I know with our faith of the New Testament is Jesus going to be public and then what is he doing? He's going to withdraw. He's like, I'm out. They have to go find him. They have to go look for him, right? And so it's a lot of that of almost the more public you become, the greater the need there is to withdraw. You need to do the cool down. There you go. That's exactly right. Yeah. That's what that is.

You need a lot of how to cool down your life by Tori Kelly. Oh, is that my memoir? That's your next memoir. Yeah. That actually, I'm glad I asked you that because that did get me thinking. Good. For what I've had to unlearn, I almost feel like it's kind of the other side of that where I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter.

And I think I've had to unlearn that and realize you. do have something to say. You can offer something to the conversation. Because I think a lot of times I would be in a conversation and just, you know, kind of sit back and be a little intimidated. Like, okay, what I, what I have to say is not as good as what they're saying. So let me just sit back. And I did learn to become a good listener in that way, which I think is very important. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think there's this balance of like being a good listener, but also, yeah, I think. having to remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is, you know, you don't have anything to offer the conversation.

People just know you as a singer. So just sing your little songs. That's when they react, you know. They react when you sing, not when you're just, you know, talking in a normal setting. Yeah. So I think I've had to unlearn that and realize like, oh, I do have something to say, even if it's just something small. I don't have to overpower the conversation, but, you know, just being more confident in the story that I've been given, things I've gone through. Like,

no one can, no one can take away your story like that, or, or, you know, discredit things. Yeah, they can't invalidate your experience. Invalid, yes, exactly. So I think having that, you know, and carrying that with me through different conversations. has helped. All right. This is where my brain's going. You want to come with me? I love to it.

What you just described of here I'm at the table, and I know I have something to say. Yeah. But I'm dealing with that mental block of, now they know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just going to be quiet. Yeah. There is somebody who's listening who feels that. And they go, how, Torrey, how did you get over that?

So I want to break this down. Okay. We're going to get sciencey for a second. Yeah. On kind of a step by step approach that we could tell this person. Okay. So what I heard you, one, say is identify when you are reserving. Like you first acknowledge, like recognizing, becoming self-aware that I have something to say.

I'm holding. And I'm holding it. Yeah. Is to acknowledge that moment. Yeah. Two is how do you get over the, you called it a block? How did you get over that? I think realizing that, one, that everybody is equal.

I feel like realizing that we're all, like nobody is better than another person. So there's a mindset kind of, you deserve to be in the room. Exactly. Yeah, because it's interesting, because as I'm thinking about it now, people would probably look at me as like someone above, you know, which is so funny. Because I, yeah, I'm like, you know, coming in being like, I have nothing to say. But then like, wait, people are looking at me on stage. You know, I'm in very, I'm in a literal sense. I'm like, I'm elevated.

Yeah, I have a lot to say there. And that is kind of a safe space for me. I feel like where I feel comfortable, more comfortable sharing. But yeah, my challenge has always been more in the, you know, the normal conversational place. But yeah, I think that's one aspect of how I got over it was just realizing we all don't, like, no one really knows anything. People might know some things, but it's, I think one of the most powerful phrases we could say is just, I don't know. I think it's really freeing. And even like allowing myself, like one, yes, having something to say and offer the conversation,

but also being okay with not knowing. Like if someone asks me a question, you know, some, yeah, sometimes it's just, I don't know, what do you think about that, you know, and kind of, I think I just did that to you too. I don't have the answer yet. Will you, you know, answer it first? So, yeah, just kind of. being more kind to myself. And, yeah, realizing that we're all kind of in the same boat,

the more I realize that and we're all trying to figure it out and we all have a lot more in common than we, then we, you know, don't have in common. I think that has been like my starting place. And it's a nice exhale moment. Okay. So we have one recognize when you're, holding back to get over this mental block is what I hear you saying it's one there's a mindset of hey

you deserve to be here yeah you wouldn't be here if you didn't yeah and you like how do you practically physically do it my guess is you have to choose to say something even if it's small even if it's small so it just maybe the smallest sentence, comment, like you have to say something out of your mouth. Yeah. And then as a test balloon to see like, did I survive? Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, yeah, the fear that I had that they weren't listening to me. Oh, they actually do care. Yeah. And you can only, you know, make progress by proving it to yourself. Yeah. Have you had to do that? Yeah. Yeah.

And it depends on, you know, of course, the group of people that you're in. You know, some people are more conversational and more interested, I guess. But even just that, like, I think I've, on one end, it's like, yeah, I've learned to offer something to the conversation. Without forcing it, though, I will say that. I don't think it's helpful for me if I'm just kind of, okay, let me just try to say something to, like, get over the sphere. Yeah, like, I think sometimes you just have to wait for that right moment and you'll know, like, when it feels natural and organic. This episode is brought to you by Upwork.

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Which I really like because I think that's for anything. It's just you have to do something. Yeah. If you always keep it in, you'll never be able to push that out. So it's a, it's, you don't think that you have to come into the meeting or conversation with a beautiful, you know, picture book worth of thoughts. Yeah. It's okay just to have something small. Yes, and that reminds me of the other thing I was going to say.

That is really unlocked a lot for me, which is asking questions, which I'm sure. I mean, you're obviously really good at it because we're here. So one thing I have learned, if I don't, you know, I don't feel like I can offer anything to the conversation. You know, maybe I feel like they're talking about things that are like too smart for me or whatever it is. I can still be a part of the conversation by asking a question. And even like just being a curious person in general has unlocked so much for me because I think a lot of what we're talking about is like, you know, how do I get over this shyness and, you know, say like say things that I feel and be a part of

the convo. But what we haven't really touched on is sometimes it's just being curious. you know and that is your way or that opens the door to you know be a part of it um i think that that actually has really really helped me get over any sort of shyness or feeling unworthy of being a part because it's like oh i'm just you know tell me more about that i'm really curious about you know your your life if someone's like sharing their story i can kind of connect with them by just that's where i think the becoming a good listener too it's like asking questions listening. It's a real skill. Yeah. Yeah, I've, I've tried to work on that over the years. But

yeah, just thinking of different questions that can ask people has helped me. Do you have like a go-to question? Let me tell you mine. Yeah, tell me. Tell me yours. My, my, I guess it's not really a question actually. Oh. If I'm thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all usually, I like to say, tell me more. And I guess that's a shortened version of tell me more. please? Maybe that's, maybe that's a question. Can you tell me more? Yeah, can you tell me more?

I think that's the abbreviated version. But same thing with say more. Yeah. Or tell me more. Just drawing more out of them. Exactly. Do you have one that you typically like to keep in your pocket? I like, oh, this is kind of a funny one.

On tour, we've been asking each other, what's your hot take? Like, do you have any hot takes? Oh, that's a good one. something, I feel like you can kind of learn about a person too if you ask them that, because it can be something that maybe they really love that everyone else hates or they really hate that everyone else loves or something that's really quirky and unique about them. So I've been actually really liking that question lately because I could see people trying to think of it.

You know, do you have? What's yours? I'm going to be thinking of it. So an example, kind of a silly one, my hot take is what I mean. start with, I don't believe that ketchup should be refrigerated, even though it says on the bottom. You look on your face, this is mortified. I can imagine you're like warm ketchup. No, think about it.

Think about it. So when we go to, not restaurants, like fast food, right? Yeah. You get ketchup. In the packets. They're not. Are they cold? No, they're not.

They're not. I didn't think about that. Or if they're like on the table? Yeah. I don't want cold ketchup. it freaks me out. I don't know. I thought ketchup was always refrigerated.

I know. But I don't think the little packets are ever cold. No. And that tastes better to me. So even though it says refrigerate after opening, I think it's a lie because it's vinegar based, so it should be totally fine. Not in the fridge.

Yeah. Mustard too. I'm not as mad at cold mustard. I don't like mustard. Yeah. Mustard and pickles. So that's my hot take. That's a good hot take.

Let me see. Let me think on the fly here. Yeah. My hot take is. is if you keep your window shade down on the plane, you should be kicked off. Like, that's my, like, just. If you keep it down.

Yeah, if you don't open your window on the plane, yeah, just go, good drive. But what if it's not? If I'm trying to sleep. That's fine, but just use a sleep mask. Like, I can't. Wow, okay, that's a good one. Because it's like I. That's like a pet peeve.

Yeah, that's my, I don't know. I don't think I've learned a difference between a pet pee, even a high take. Maybe it's the same, actually. Maybe. Maybe. What's your pet pee? Obviously, don't kick them off, of course. But mine is like, you're flying in the air, thousands of feet.

You don't even want to look like you can't even. That's true. It's a pretty wild experience. How bored do you have to be just to go, you know what? I'm a human with legs, but you know what? I'm flying through the air at hundreds of miles per hour. Yeah. Not even going to lift my finger to look out this window. My pushback on that would be if it's.

an international flight. Oh, fair. The time zones. It's supposed to be nighttime, but we're flying through bright. I think that's, that is totally valid. Then I would be mad at you. Yeah, which if you're trying to sleep, I get that. Absolutely. Or if the sun's like beaming in and it's super hot, go for it. Yeah, but at least look at once. It'd be like, this is what it looks like. And then close it. And that's fine. I just need also. Just something. Just something. Just There's a little something to go, oh, am I appreciative of this modern machine that I'm in? Yeah. No one is grateful for an airplane.

No, it is crazy when you think about we're up in the sky on seats, just floating. And then we end up in another place. You are sitting getting a mostly terrible snack, but you are going through the air. It's wild. That's my pet peeves. Yeah. I mean, honestly, what's your pet peeve? is also kind of a good icebreaker.

I've played this game before at, it's a good one at like restaurants and stuff if you're with, if you're meeting new people maybe. And we've, we've said, I think, I'm trying to think if my husband

heard this somewhere. I might have stolen it from him, but three loves and three hates. Oh, that's also a good one. And everybody goes around and shares theirs. And it can be anything from, like you could, you could share that as a think,

oh, I hate when people do this. It could be lighthearted. but most of the time you'll find people, you know, getting pretty deep. That's funny. And you can learn a lot about a person by what they say. Another one that I heard was to ask everybody to show their last, like, seven items ordered on Amazon. Oh my gosh.

That's so good. To see what everybody's, like, ordered. Mine's all baby things, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, no doubt. No doubt. I think mine was like a gardening tool. Oh, that's so great. Because it feels so personal.

I know. I was like, you don't, like, yeah, mine was like a new tube of toothpaste. Like, you don't need to know what kind of toothpaste I use. We're definitely, yeah, we're doing that on the way back. We're definitely going to add this. Yeah. Close are starting to delete her Amazon or I can already tell. Can you do that?

Can you delete history of Amazon? She's probably trying once she can let us know. I think using icebreakers, what's like the deeper message there? The deeper message is find a way to talk about something lighthearted. Yeah. Something not serious. Yeah. Because I know we're about to finish up the, our sciencey step process.

Yes. Is knowing the, what you're about to share doesn't have to be something huge or heavy. Yeah, yeah. It can be something light and it can be simple as, tell me more. Yeah. Or it could be something that you're wanting to bring up to the conversation more as an icebreaker. Yeah. just for something of gaining a little bit of their personality.

For sure. Yeah. I think I've learned to, just to add kind of on top of that, I've learned to not sort of be a, I guess let me rephrase this. I've learned to sort of read whatever room that I'm in. I think I've gotten a little better at, you know, maybe, okay, when I walk into this room, seems like there's a lot of big personalities, you know, I'm not going to try to like force stuff.

Okay, they're, you know, they got the topics. I'm kind of chiming in whenever. And then if I'm in another room where maybe I am actually the more outgoing one, which is crazy because I feel like I'm very, you crank it up. I'm very shy. Yeah, but then I can, you know, if it seems quiet or maybe a little awkward, that's when I can, you know, bring up one of these questions or just, yeah, I think questions are just so powerful because I think it then gets other people to start talking.

And then, you know, if you can't think of anything to say, I think really just being curious is the best, is the best move. I think you just finished out our process. One, you can tell me how, if this is Tori Kelly approved. One, to recognize when you're holding it in, when you're reserving something that you feel like you need to say. Yeah. Second is when you, when you,

are up against that mental blog, have the mindset of you deserve to be there. Yeah. And choose to do something. It can start small. So start small. What's a three? What's a one way? You can start small. Be curious and ask, ask an easy question. Yeah. And fun little sidebar can be, what's your hot take? There we go. Something yeah. What's your, what's your, what's your heart take? What's your feeling on refrigerating condiments are not something like that. It's so specific. I know, I know. I'm probably, even after our episode, I'm going to be thinking of like eight other

hot takes. I'm like, I really need to have one at the ready. It's fun. Yeah. It's fun. I keep adding. I keep adding to mine. Someone said, because I was, I like went on Instagram and just asked people to get to get some good ones.

One really good one I read was red velvet is just chocolate. but dyed red. And I was like, I don't know if that's more just a fun fact. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like that hurts my feelings. I don't know. Isn't that? Are you a red velvet guy?

I like real velvet. I think I like it for the cheese, cream cheese icing. Oh, yeah, yeah. But next time you try it, I don't think, you won't be able to look at it the same. It's literally just chocolate. Yeah, I definitely have seen some of those on social media where it's, they, they like totally bust your bubble. on something and it's... I think that's one of those things, yeah.

Yeah, it's like actually... Sorry to the red velvet lovers out there. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. I feel like it's worth an apology. Probably. There's somebody eating a red velvet cake. If you say cake right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry again. Just thrown away the albums right now. That's how mad they are. Before we keep going, I have to tell you about cozy earth and the secret that many of you may not know about. And that is there's something in our house that we fight over, all of us, all four of us. And that is our cozy earth blanket. It is a blanket that we keep in the living

room. It's called like their super plush cuddle blanket or something. We just call it the blanket because it is the blanket. One, it's huge. Two, it feels like they are hugging a polar bear, is what I would imagine it is. And three, it's weighted. And so, but not too heavy. And when I say our kids claim it before anybody else. And so when we do like a movie night, we're doing a 90s movie or Disney movie, that is priority number one is who gets the blanket and it creates plenty of opportunities for us to navigate some conflict in arguments. So if you would like to share and in these opportunities to handle arguments and you also are

somebody who likes to have a wonderful blanket at home that nobody else can share. You can go to cozy earth.com slash Jefferson used to go Jefferson for up to 20% off. The blanket is the blanket. The blanket to rule all blankets. Cozy earth.com slash Jefferson for up to 20% off. And now let's keep going. You know, between you and your husband, remember me of your husband's name? Andre. Yeah, Andre. When you all communicate, how have you improved? the way you communicate. Wow.

Well, we've been together for 11 years. That helps. Married for eight. Yes, you learn a lot along the way. I think some of it is just knowing him more now, that just naturally I think we've gotten better, but also I got to give him credit, man. Even some of the stuff that I'm saying about asking questions

and things like that, I really feel like I've gotten some of the stuff. of that from him. I think I've watched him in different settings and he's such a, he's a great communicator honestly. I think that's, he's going to love this whole conversation because he really cares. Shout out Andre. Yeah, shout out to Andre. He really cares about connecting with people and

you know, he's great at like he's done speaking and he has been in a lot of different settings and different communities where you know he can get pretty deep pretty quickly um yeah so i think i think i've i think i've gotten some of that from him i think i think we both i'm sure he's gotten some things for me too yeah probably just osmosis you know just being around each other have y'all found um because we've been married 15 years and i can tell you in that amount of time you don't survive that amount of time without being really good at handling conflict between.

So have you all, is there like a method or a system on how y'all specifically handle conflict? I think we both can get, we're both pretty passionate people, so we can get pretty heated quickly we've realized. I think we both kind of, we're pretty fiery, but it's because we care.

and I used to get freaked out by any sort of arguing because in my house that just wasn't a thing. I came from more of like, we don't, you know, we don't argue. It's all behind closed doors. So then when, you know, and his family's actually the opposite. It's like everyone's like loud. Yeah. You know, an argument isn't even the end of the world. And his family, it's like, we're just talking.

Yeah. So that was interesting coming into the marriage with that. But I quickly learned to not be afraid. of conflict because I actually learned to not obviously not love it but see the the good in it and realize I kind of changed my perspective on it because I realized I would rather argue about this and and get through to the other side because it actually shows that we care if you didn't want to if there was something I cared about and you actually just didn't want to argue with me about it or try to understand where I'm coming from, that would actually scare me more because

that's now you're being complacent. And I think that's the scariest thing. Complacent is the word, right? Yeah, I think so because he's not in it with you. Yeah, exactly. I think that's complacency is, I think, scarier than like fighting in some ways. For sure. For us at least. Oh, it's the same for us. I mean, I think, you can, in all kinds of like marriage advice world, the phrase they use is lean in, you know, whenever, if there's conflict. Yeah. And let's say, Andre, I was like, actually, yeah, okay, whatever. And not wanting to, that would. Like you win, whatever.

Yeah, it would probably make you fight even harder because you're wanting that. I just crave understanding on both ends. Like, I want to understand where you're coming from. Why did you say the thing that you just said? Like, what's the heart of the issue here? And, you know, and then on the flip side, I also want to feel understood. I want to be understood by other people. Like, I really crave that.

So I think we've learned to tone down the firiness, though. And there's been times, too, where we have this little thing where, like, you know, maybe there's like an argument kind of bubble. or we can tell we're like annoyed with each other and we'll just be like okay want to rain check this okay cool and then we're able to just like we know because then it's acknowledging like okay we're not just going to sweep this under the rug but we're definitely going to talk about it later but now's not the time yeah like there's other things happening let's let's rain check I care about how you feel yes but let's rain check this I think that's helped a lot well what you just said was

that's not a small thing at all like um um um rain check timeout that is not only important it is necessary yeah and what you added on to that was we're going to be okay like i love you yeah that little component yeah i think is really important because it's easy to go you know what i just time out and you leave and that can create a lot of anxiety and stress it's like wait are we good are we okay yeah and but if you just Like there are times when transparently, Sierra and I, we know that we're in a major discussion. And also, it typically happens in night, right?

And you're tired, you're tired. We've had long to, and yeah, we got kids. And we got, geez, we got kids. We're talking. And we love each other. But yet we're just starting to go in a circle or but being tired is really bad. So it's like at night, you kind of have the midnight madness.

And it's because I think it for a lot of parents, just like kids, it's, it's our witching hour too. You know, we're tired. And so if it's like, hey, look, let's just put this in. We're going to talk about this tomorrow. Yeah. What I've learned is I cannot just roll over and because I could. I could just roll over and be out. Yeah.

There has to be some. hey, we're going to be okay. Yeah, yeah. We're going to get through it. Yeah. It's not, you know, there has to be that little something. It's built up too if it's not talked about. Yeah, and I can't, I mean, I have only one little baby.

You have, you said you have two. How is that, like, how do you guys stay connected and find ways to, like, check in with each other with now your kids are slightly older and they have their own lives? Like, how do you guys? I need all the advice. Yeah, all the advice, yeah. get into this parenting thing. We truly do.

So we have what we call check-ins and checkouts. I love that. So in the mornings, it's every morning. We check in. Even for like, yeah, really, because you got to. Yeah. And so we have a, it might be even five minutes to read. So some portion of that, we're talking about what we have during the day,

because that's what your brain's thinking first. And it's like, get out what your schedule is for both of you. It's like, okay, and go. Team break. But also. of just how are you feeling about the day? Or do you, maybe something we read earlier in that morning that's, you know, been working on us.

And then it could be as easy, simple as two, three, five minutes. Yeah. The bigger ones that checkouts. That's, you know, how did the day go? Yeah. It might be, you know. That's when we talk about the rain check that we had earlier. Exactly.

But what you'll find as your kid gets older, just the more, you know, you will, like now we'll have arguments about things our child did. Like so if I have a different perspective on something he didn't, it's not that big of a deal. And she feels like it's a really big deal or vice versa. And so now the problem is not between us. Interesting. It's how you're raising this kid.

Exactly. And so that's a lot of the conversation of because you both want what's best. You both love. you know, just immensely. So having those checkouts of, I think we typically also try and run it through like just how are we, how did we feel about the day? What did we struggle with about the day? So if there were like any thoughts from moments that we really had.

And then kind of the same thing of what's been, what God's been working on our heart and what we felt like we were going to do and work better and try to be encouraging. And put on the plate if we know something's something. something's brewing like you know we're going to have to have a major thing so that's that's helped us a lot I'm going to steal that I think yeah that's really good buckle up on jute that's all I got a segment yeah I know get ready now I think we kind of do the schedule thing like we wake we don't call it check in and check out but I'm going to steal that because it's great yeah we I think we naturally have been sort of like all right what do you or we've said like what are your hopes for

today. Like what's your what's your ideals because and that's actually helped me because I am I can have crazy ideals of what you know what I want things to look like and it helps me to verbalize them because then it's like it just gets it out of my body and then if it doesn't happen it's fine but if I hold on to you know whatever ideals I have for you then if you don't do that I'm like wait the day's all all scrambled now the unvoiced expectation yeah expectations. Yeah, it's, so we've actually used that word to like, what are your expectations for today? And then it just kind of gets it out there. If it doesn't happen, then it's cool.

So I love the check-in, check-out thing. That's really cool. I do think that if you only talk about schedule, you really talk about nothing. You know, you really don't get to. Yeah. It's not helping you know the person. You got to get to the emotion. Exactly.

How are you feeling? Yeah. Yeah. And one thing my wife said once that I still always love is I was kind of down about a conversation that we'd had. And she said, well, either way, it's good. In other words, every time even with the difficult conversation, she got to know and learn more about how I was thinking. And I got to learn more of like this person that even though we've been together and y'all've been together 11 years, there's still a lot you don't know about each other. Totally. And you don't get to know that person better. Yeah. The person that you say, you know, you love by just talking about the schedule. Totally.

Yeah. And it's crazy how we can forget to check in. It's like you're just kind of, you're doing life with this person. Yeah. You know, and then kids start getting. I mean, I'm so new, so I can't even imagine. But I. It's still hard.

Seven months is still hard. That's like, yeah. Yeah, we have like this new project that we're like pouring into. Oh, yeah. And it never stops. Yeah. It's not like you can. set it aside and be like, well, we'll try again next month.

It's, it's, it's constant. Yeah. It just made me think of something my friend texts me often that I love that she does this. She'll just text, how's your heart? And I love that because it's not how are you doing, which, you know, you could answer that in so many different ways. But if you say, how's your heart, it kind of forces you to get to the emotion, the what's really underneath. And it's just making me think of that

because I feel like it's making me want to like go text my husband. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, how's your heart? Yeah, I think it's just, it feels. That's really sweet. Yeah, it feels good to, on both sides of that. I feel it feels good to be.

I'm going to copy that. I like that. Yeah, I'll take the check and thing. I'll take the house. Shout out to my friend Naomi. She's the one. Yeah, Naomi. That's a wonderful.

How's your heart? Yeah, she's good. We like to also ask what's coming up? Like what's coming up for you instead of what's wrong? What's going on? Oh, yeah. What's it matter with you? What's coming up?

I like that. Yeah, yeah, because there's something coming up. Yeah. You know, for the thing. What's your number one red flag? Ooh. Well, are we talking? Let's talk people, like in terms of, maybe it's personality or, because I don't want to be specific with that.

Like, you know what my red flag is? Yeah. My friend Naomi. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I'm like that. And Naomi. asking you how my heart is doing. Exactly. Yeah, that's a red flag. Because when I think red flag, I think like romantic relationship, but you're saying red flag in general. Yeah, okay, let me, then let me set

the stage. So, okay, let's put it in a more commercial, corporate kind of meeting context. Yes. Where there are lots of other voices in the room, people wanting you to do things, getting asked for you to be pulled in on things. Yeah. Yeah, what's your number one red flag? Yeah, okay, that kind of sets it up. differently. I think, hmm, I probably have a few red flags. I feel like I'm pretty observant. Yeah, because you said you read the room really well. And the way you described it is exactly right. Of like being able to, it's like a soundboard, right? You're starting to. I think I, I never thought of as a red flag, but I think I kind of tense up or have my eye on someone who kind of carries

this kind of know it all energy about them. Yeah, or like if it seems like they always, it's funny, as we were talking about adding to the conversation, I think if there's somebody who's kind of overpowering a conversation or maybe, you know, you ask them something and it seems like they always have like an answer ready or, yeah, just, I guess, yeah, someone who,

isn't willing to say that they don't know, especially in my industry, because what I do, I was just talking about this today, it's like we're not, I'm not curing cancer, you know, I'm a musician. It's like,

this would be fun. This is very, this is very light. And I think so much of, of my industry can feel like, it's so chaotic and we're all stressed. Trying to get more serious than it is. Yeah,

and I'm like, we're making music. I actually stole that quote from Max Martin, incredible, legendary producers. Like if he's saying this, you know, we should take what he's saying seriously. But Rosen lasagna, medium power.

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you know, seems to like act like they know how it works because it's just not true. No one knows how this music thing works. Number one red flag for Tori Kelly is a no-it-all. A no-at-all. I think that's good. That's good. Well, let me just remind you, I don't really know them very much, Tori. Yeah.

I just need to tell you, I don't know very many things. I know a few. When you come around me, just act like you don't know anything. Yeah. And then we'll be friends. There you go. I mean, and I think that's, I think it's also healthy. Yeah.

What we do is all, if I need to kind of get my mind in that space, because I think that's healthy to be like, hey, you said, we're not curing cancer of your minds. Yeah. I may, I may started making videos in my car. Like, that's, that's. It's freeing, right? Yeah, all of a sudden it's like, what are you even doing? Why, I'm taking this so seriously.

I need to take it down a notch. But, Tori, I have thoroughly enjoyed the time and the conversation. I'm so proud of the growing family that you and Andre have. And that cannot be easy being and doing all the things that you were being and doing. And I can promise you that we will be losing our voice probably tonight at the concerts. We're looking forward to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me.

This is so great.