The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Money Conversations Everyone Should Be Having Ft. Vivian Tu

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

Money might be one of the hardest conversations we avoid having. In this episode, I sit down with money expert Vivian Tu to talk about why money feels so uncomfortable, how the way we grew up shapes our financial habits, and how to have better conversations about money with your partner, your kids, and even your boss. Vivian also shares when to bring up money while dating, who should pay on the first date, and how to ask for the raise you deserve. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money? People who are at the bottom will say we can't afford that. People at the top will say it's not currently in the budget. It's the exact same thing. And unfortunately, for a very long time, we have equated your value as a human being with your net worth. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. So I get this job at J.P. Morgan.

I was very literally only sitting next to rich people. And I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us. Because when they talk about money, they have more to compare. They're trading secrets. At what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money? As soon as possible, baby. It's like first date. Yeah.

Easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it. How do you ease into it? Yeah, you and I are on a dinner date and I say, if a million dollars dropped into your lap, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney? Yes. That tells me you likely aren't motivated by the money you're making as an attorney and that you actually really enjoy your job.

I've seen a lot of things in the news about good, hardworking employees being laid off. At this point in time, should we be asking for raises? or should we just be thankful that we have jobs? Loyalty to your company. Let me be very clear. Why is it that talking about money seems to be harder than talking about everything else? Yeah.

Because we've been conditioned that way, right? So here's the story. We're sitting around the family table. Little Johnny goes, Mom, Dad, like, how much is our house worth? You're like, Johnny, please, don't ask that. That's so rude. Okay? flash forward a couple years.

Little Johnny's like, hey dad, how much do you make? The kids at school were talking about how much their dad's make. And dad's like, little Johnny, don't ask that. That's so rude. Okay. Then suddenly, little Johnny is 18, signs a six-figure student loan contract. Little Johnny is now 21, needs a credit score to rent his first apartment, doesn't know how to fill out his tax return,

at the end of the year or in April, little Johnny has no idea how to negotiate for his salary at his job. Little Johnny has no idea how to budget. Little Johnny has no idea that he should be saving. Doesn't really understand how a credit card works, but they'll give him one. They'll give him one for sure.

And little Johnny's not investing because he's never even heard his parents talking about a vest day. If we talked about money, the same way we talk about literally anything else at the dinner table, we would be able to talk about money. Think about it. Your parents talked about

their political affiliations, which is typically a taboo topic at the dinner table. I remember because kids were coming to school and parroting what their parents were saying. Your parents talk about pop culture. Like, I have 1,000% sat down and talked to my mom and dad

about movies coming out or music that I'm listening to, things like that. Great. You've talked about sports. You've talked about religion. Like, my husband grew up a Catholic family. He went to a Catholic high school. They talked about religion, certainly.

And, you know, we talk about all of these quote-unquote hot button taboo topics. Think of the last time your parents sat down and said, hey, we need to talk about how much you're probably going to inherit. Right. Never. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. I definitely agree with it. There's some aspect of it that is conditioned because it is the one thing we don't talk about. Truly, Vivian, I mean, I've never really talked to my own parents about, you know, what they make and my whole life. I just wasn't, it wasn't a thing. And I don't know also if it's a cultural thing. I don't know if it's the same in the U.S. as it as, or even within, let's say, northern states, southern states,

West Coast, East Coast, or in different cultures. But I do feel like absolutely correct that there's a part of it that's conditioned. And then I also am very curious over why is it that even within like dating relationships, friendships, it becomes a very awkward, hesitant part of the discussion? I think in part one, because of how media has made us think about money, for a very long time, we have equated your value as a human being with your network. Think about you're going to a cocktail party. I meet you for the first time.

What's the first question out of our mouths? So what do you do? Right. Like, why does the first question that I ask you as a stranger have anything to do with what you do for a job? Like, why am I not like, hey, what's your favorite hobby? Yeah. Like, hey, like, what is your favorite restaurant to try around here? That's never the first question.

So what do you do? Mm-hmm. And the fact that the answer to, so what do you do is your job says, a lot about what we're trying to signal because when you are a high-powered attorney, that's a social status symbol. Right. That's a good job. That's a fancy job. In some sectors. For sure. And it quickly gets into a stereotype and like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like you're a lawyer. So my assumption is you're smarter than the average person. My assumption is you make more money than the average person. My assumption is you live a certain type of lifestyle, right? You're

responsible, you're dependable. Good job. Whereas we have now made it so that like your amount of money in your bank account is a representation of you as a moral win or a moral failure. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. Oh, like, you're a bad mom. You had to put those groceries on a credit card and you couldn't afford them. Or if their mom's working. Or if their mom's working. There's so much perspective around money because it is a an indicator of so many other behavioral characteristics, even though that may not necessarily be true, and it certainly leads to a lot of bias. What I will say is that we are getting better. You're seeing young people now on social media saying things, like, I can't believe my rent costs this much. Or, so I was on this date, and this guy made me split the, like, we're talking about money in a way that was not seen decades ago or a couple decades.

ago, even in our generation, I would say. Gen Alpha is much more comfortable talking about money than Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Boehlers. Which one's Gen Alpha? Gen Alpha is like, they're fresh. They're really fresh. They're like 15 right now. Fresh eggs. Okay, got it. And so I think we're moving in a better direction, but we have been conditioned by the media to think that the amount of money we have is a representation of us as a person, and we are always worried of being judged by other people based on the number we say. I think media is an element of it, but I think you could certainly be somebody who never watch TV in your life. Yeah.

Never watch social media in your life. And even if I'm going to talk about money to my grandparents or dating or you're married for five years and you're still talking about money problems, There's something about talking about money that seems to be very, it can be a catalyst and also create ruptures. Yeah. I hear lots of people who have very difficult conversations or they become estranged with siblings or parents. And a lot of that is because of money. Money. Yeah.

And I don't, I think conditioning is one element. I certainly think, and we talk about media. I do think it is cultural, by the way. I agree. And I think that stems from some of it. And I do agree with you that it comes from a deeply rooted sense of comparison. Mm-hmm. Of where am I?

Never feeling like you have enough. Yeah, where am I in the hierarchy? I either never get enough of it. And whether it brings you happiness, doesn't bring you happiness with success and all that stuff. I think the folks at the bottom or the folks, who don't feel like they have enough, it's an insecurity. And then the folks at the top are afraid of being judged, being told that they're tone deaf or out of touch or, frankly,

that, you know, very real-life cases, that people are going to burgle them. Is burgle the verb? I don't know, but let's make it. Yeah. Somebody's going to come to their house and steal what they have and take what they have. And so I think there's a level of not talking about money as a defense. I never thought about that.

I think that's a great point because we, I'm from a very, very small town. I'm talking like, we were so pumped when we got a waffle house. And that was last year. We had a Walmart and a Chili's. That triple dipper is getting you right now. I'm telling you. Yeah, all the time. And chicken crisper is, get with me.

So, but we were, my wife and I were talking about getting a new vehicle. We had a used car. It was on its last leg. about what we were going to get. And so much of the discussion was not the, certainly what's going to be reliable, safe. It was, are we going to get a vehicle that everybody's going to go, oh, they got, they must have money. Or, you know, it's like, if we were in that town, we, you buy a Mercedes or drive a Mercedes, it's like, I'm smashing your windows. Well, it's not, it's, maybe that's in New York way. I don't know.

But it's very much a judgment of you think you're better than everybody else. You think you're better than me. If you have any kind of foreign car, if you buy it off the lot, there's something about the perception that, of course, there's nothing to do with us. But there are vehicles we did not buy, brands we did not buy, purely because it was like, no, that would just call attention. Also, we were in a community where you knew everybody by their car. So you could see them from like, oh, I see Henry or whatever. I don't know Henry, but you know what his cars looks like. And so I think that's exactly right.

You have that kind of struggle. You think that's something that's always happened that's always been there? Or is it more popular now than ever? I think it's gotten worse in terms of like that insecurity and that comparison game. And by the way, this is like statistically shown and proven. You've probably heard the term the K-shaped economy, which is just a fancy way. saying the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. I would say probably about 50 years ago, there was a much more robust middle class.

And because of that, things didn't feel that like comparison-y because you could only compare to the people you could see. And so, you know, your parents are looking out their front window and they're like, ooh, the Davis has got a new flat screen TV. It's like, I see the box in the recycling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they couldn't see into the super fancy, you know, Beverly Hills gated neighborhood. Right.

Because they weren't in that tax bracket and they didn't live there. Now, I can get into Kim Kay's private plane on my phone. I should have no idea what the inside of a private jet looks like. I'm not in that tax bracket. Like, I have no business knowing what the private islands look like. I have no business knowing what, you know, the people, taking their PJs into Davos are doing. But I can.

And now there's a phrase, like, why did you show it to me if I couldn't have it? People want it. And so it's really the game of a measuring contest. Of like, what do you have? What don't I have? What do I need to get to get there? And like, is my life better than yours?

Because it's not just, is my life better than yours? But it's like, can you see that my life is better than yours? It's a showing off of it. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about tiny health. Sometimes you just don't feel yourself. And maybe it's what you ate. Maybe it's how you slept. You're not really sure.

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what's bad, and have recommendations for what we should do and what's really going on, really helpful, really insightful. And because of that, we have a much happier tummy here at home. Right now, you can go to tiny health.com slash jeverson, used to go jefferson for $50 off your first at home test. That's tinyhealth.com slash jefferson used to go jefferson for $50 off. Now, let's keep going. Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money? Yeah, 100%. The top loves talking about money.

You ever been to a golf course that's like really, really private? I haven't. I felt awkward. Out of water. I felt so awkward. Yeah. It's so funny because I never had this experience until I actually started my job where I was a trader at J.P. Morgan. And I sat shoulder to shoulder.

And I was the youngest person on the desk, definitely the brokest. and to hear the way people were talking about money of deploying capital or we're going to go out east. East of what? Where are we going? Just a totally different language. I was like I feel like I need a, you know, Merriam Webster for what you guys are saying because I literally didn't understand. And it is very much a rules for the, but not for me, rich people talk about money all the time. They love talking about money.

people are talking about their personal portfolios. Because they have it. They have it. There was no sense of like your house is bigger than mine because we all had big houses. They all had big houses. I had a 650 square foot apartment. So I had no idea what was going on. But to hear them have that conversation, I was like, oh, so it is okay to do these things.

And I think a lot of my comfort now stems from the fact that I was very much an outsider, came from only child to two immigrant parents. went to the University of Chicago where I was suddenly exposed to a lot of incredibly wealthy international students, a lot of incredibly wealthy legacy students and then put into a job where I was very literally

only sitting next to rich people. And I got a peek behind the curtain. And I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us. They're doing it better than the regular people because when they talk about money, they have more to compare. And they're trading secrets.

They're saying, oh, I had a really good mortgage broker, get me the best, lowest possible rate. You should use my broker. I scratch your back. Oh, you belong to that one country club that I haven't been able to get an in at. You're going to be my sponsor there. Yeah. Now we've scratched each other's backs. Then it's people would go to this.

They would all go to one guy's dentist. They all shared one dentist. They all shared one. It was crazy the amount of information that was happening. For sure. I feel like I know a good group of what I would call finance bros. They all wear the sweater vest, you know. My husband has one. And so it's like it's a uniform.

And they all have like their whole thing. There's plenty of memes and videos on which are I think all very accurate. They all have their old different lingo, which everybody's looking for their community. And that's how they found theirs. I'm really curious more on how do they talk about money. How does how do the top talk about money versus how the bottom talks about money? In other words, their relationship to it. Maybe are there different words that they use?

Yeah. Everything at the top gets a PR spin in the same way that, you know, what is it, lamb is mutton, you know, beef is cows or whatever. It's very much poor people have debt. rich people use leverage. No, so like poor people will call it debt. Yeah, rich people have leverage. They call it leverage.

Yeah. I have leverage. That's why I was able to purchase that home. Poor people, you took out a loan. You have debt. We talk about money's like, oh, I have cash. I have dry powder. I have capital.

I have something to use. It's a tool. And it seems like the real stark differentiation, for me at least, is the amount of abundance rich people talk about money with. It always seems like there's more common. It never feels like that faucet's going to turn off. Whereas people who are not at the top, it feels very scarce.

It's always something that's running out. It's something that you have to hold so close to your chest, something you have to grip onto and hold on to forever, and it changes how we discuss. So people who are at the bottom will say, we can't afford that. People at the top will say it's not currently in the budget. It's the exact same thing, by the way. Yeah. Because even rich people can't afford certain things, but they would never tell you that. Yeah. It's not currently in my budget. And I'm thinking of

the single mom who has three kids hanging on to her grocery cart while she's pushing it. It's just got off work and the kids bring her a candy or toy and she's, you know, we can't, we can't afford that. We can afford it. We can afford it. And that is what a difference of if I talk a lot about how the power in your words and the word choice makes such a big difference. And I think how we talk about money in this exact way and that difference has such an implication on the mindset of, of, and I talk to, you know, I'm not going to say anything because my father's an attorney. I can't put that in a position of, you know, my best friend. whose dad was a manager at Dollar General.

Yeah. And of how the conversation, you know, went with that. But the different mindset of what gets passed down, I think, is generational of if you find, like, how friends of mine have a scarcity mindset where there's never enough, even though I know that they're doing fine. They're doing great. Yeah. But yet, they still feel like any day could be. the last day. Yeah. I struggled with that for quite some time. Tell me. Because my family came here as immigrants. I feel very lucky I was born in this country. But things were hard for my parents when I was

younger. What country? China. Yeah. How was their thinking of money different from how you are now? Well, it took me a while to kind of unlearn some of those bad habits. Like I heard the phrase, can't afford that all the time from everything to, you know, candy in the grocery store that my mom probably just didn't want me eating, all the way to toys, all the way to jeans that I wanted as a preteen with the rips in them. But, you know, I think one of the most memorable experiences was I was a preteen. I went to the mall with my, you know, best friend at the time, my childhood best friend. And we went and we bought these jeans from Abercrombie and Fitch. came home. By the way, these were the cool girl jeans. You just gave me so many memories just by saying that name. Like, first off, like, the smell of that perfume is, like, burned into my mind.

And then the, like, naked men on the bags. Yeah. Yeah. So you come home, and my mom found the jeans and the receipt in the bag, and she saw how much I had spent on these jeans. And she blew me up. She was like, who do you think you are spending this much money? like you don't understand the value of a dollar. And I, as a young person,

the only thing I could think to say was, well, she got a pair too. And my mom, she looked so defeated and she said, well, her dad's a lawyer and your parents aren't millionaires. And I am angsty, preteen teen. I run up to my room, slam the door, and I am in tears.

And I'm so sad because my mom just told me I was not deserving of those genes because of a circumstance beyond my control. And I made a promise to myself that day. I was like, no one is ever going to deny me ripped jeans ever again. Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to be rich. I don't care what it takes.

And that manifested in a hunger in school because I knew my parents had always told me that, like, in this country, your education is like kind of the one ticket to socioeconomic mobility. And that's what I was told. So I was the valedictorian in my high school class. I go to a school like you Chicago. I think I'm on the up and up. I get good grades. I graduate with honors.

I get this job at J.P. Morgan. I'm there, Jefferson. I am now about to be rich. I am so stoked. But what I found was that when you're a first-year analyst on Wall Street, you're really excited. It's a name-brand place to work. But you don't actually make that much money. And you're working like 80 hours a week.

And it still never felt like enough. And I felt like I was this rabbit chasing a carrot. And I was like, when am I ever going to get there? And you find like it's all that comparison. I can tell you for me, one, I was giggling. I haven't giggled in a while. I haven't even used that word in a while. You made me giggle.

Because my mom would refuse to buy Ameri Crime Beavage in Hollister, which were... Because they were ripped. One, yes, because she was like, why would I buy stuff that has holes in it? Second of all, she was like, those prices are insane. And so I'm not ashamed to say the two pieces of, I had a, or was an Aere Apostle too. I remember that either. I had an Air Apostle shirt and a Hollisle shirt.

I never had an Amor Carmine Fitch. We got them from Goodwill. Okay. That's where we got them. And I can remember the Cologne and like the rave like, like, setting. It was so dark in that store. It was like, I was like, I don't even know what color it is, but I would go with my friends who did buy the stuff. And what was kind of unique was the ones who did buy it,

their parents weren't wealthy, but that's what they put that money towards. Money towards. And that might have been something without me noticing at the time. But I did for me, even though people say, oh, well, his dad was an attorney. There's a lot of attorneys that are barely making ends meet

because just that way when you become an attorney and start out as an associate, you really don't make that much, and there's still lots of lawyers who are having to practice right by the courthouse because they're struggling to get work. But I was, I think that's the reason why my point is Vivian, that I'm the spender of life. You are!

I'm definitely the spender. Because I think, ingrained in me was this misconception of I was not worth spending the money on. And so I take a lot of value of when I buy something. Like I don't want to buy like off-brain cereal. You know, like I want to buy the on-brain. You know, are people who say like you need to buy the Tylenol versus the knockoff. Yeah, a acetaminopin.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, whatever. And so I think I'm like that. And so you saying all that brought a lot of like, I think there's a lot of how we spend and talk about money now is so much tied to how our parents, how we heard our parents talk about money. But also the scar tissue of like what you learned about money growing up because, you know, they say it's so much harder to learn a language after the age of seven. You also learn a lot of your money habits before the age of seven. Language of money, yeah. Yeah. The language of money, yeah, exactly. I want to switch gears and talk about romantic relationships or dating or anything else. So at what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money?

As soon as possible, baby. It's like first date. Yeah, why not? So is it like how much you? No, no, don't be a weirdo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. What do you want to eat?

You want to do this? You're paying for this, right? Yeah, yeah. No. How much money do you make? Like, what do you do? What I like to say is that like easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it. Like you're not showing up to date one being like show me your pay stub.

Right. How do you ease into it? Yeah. Okay. You and I are on a dinner date and I say, oh, okay. If a million dollars dropped into your lap tomorrow, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney? Yes.

But see, that teaches me something about you, right? It tells me that you likely aren't most. motivated by the money you're making as an attorney and that you actually really enjoy your job. I love how that's you talking about money without talking about money. Right. Like your money. Okay. You want another fun one? Let's go.

Okay. If I gave you $100,000 tomorrow to plan a perfect two-week vacation, what would you do? Hire a travel agent. Probably. No, but like what would you want to go do? Like, what is the thing that the travel agent will plan? Oh, good. good. I was like, I'd have them plan it because it sounds like too much. I don't know what you'd

spend even that on. That's a great one though. Right? Because somebody's going to say, I'm going to go backpack through, you know, Nepal and then I'm going to climb Everest. Climbing Everest is very expensive, by the way. Is it really? Yes, my lash tech actually did it, and he has this sick photo of him at the top of Everest. But like, it's an incredibly expensive endeavor because you have to buy all the gear, you have to hire the shepherds, you have to do all this like training. That stuff scares me. Super scary. Not in a million years. Dude, no. I don't like to go on vacation to places that are less comfortable than my own home. Oh, preach. Like, I'm not sleeping in a tent. I don't want to have to like, you know, hike. I could do like a hunting backpack

a backpack kind of thing. I don't want to have to wear a backpack. Well, that's fair. Right? Like, I'm trying to be horizontal. There definitely needs to be sand. The straight mummy though. Yeah, full time, full time. Like, dacery in hand, full mummy. There's water. Like if I'm going skiing, I'm good for like, half a day at a time and then put me put me in the aprae portion of the day yeah yeah give me next to a fire was for cocoa and I'm happy but imagine we're on the date and you're saying hey my perfect dream is to you know climb

machu Picchu or go to Machu Picchu and mine is like oh really like I'm just trying to like rot yeah I'm with you are we aligned like you want to go hiking you want to climb Kilimanjaro you want to do all of fun outdoorsy exercise stuff. You want to skydive out of a plane. You want to horseback ride. Okay. Crazy. I'm trying to relax. I'm not trying to do anything that could possibly get me killed. I don't have to want to sign a waiver on vacation. That tells me that our values or our hobbies

or our lifestyles may not be the best match for each other. For sure, it tells you the intrinsic motivation between it. Or it's, you know, maybe it's, first off, If you gave me $200,000, I'm paying off my student debt. I'm paying off my parents' house. That's another question you can say. If I gave you $100,000 tomorrow, you can't just put in a bank account. What would you do with it? I love that.

I'm trying to hear someone say, I'm paying off my student loans. I'm making sure that I am, you know, investing. I am going to treat myself to something nice and maybe I'd consider a down payment on a home. Yeah. If someone says immediately, like, you know. Buy a car. Lambo. Yeah.

huge red flag. I don't want that at all. Yeah, but imagine the person you're, you know, on that date with goes, you know, I'd set up college funds for my nieces and nephews. I'd be like, when can you get married? Exactly. Yeah. I'd be like, perfect. Right. You want to schedule what date? Can you get married again? When is it? Let's go. When's your schedule free up? Like, we can go sign the licenses now. Right, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So that's how we ease into conversation. I think there's a beautiful ways of talking about money without talking about money. Money. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. Why? Because

everything they make is premium. It's high quality product. Most recently, what I have enjoyed from Cozy Earth, are there bed sheets? Didn't think I'd be saying that. But you know what? There comes a time when you travel a lot, you go, I miss my bed and I want my bed sheets. Right now, Cozy Earth has these really nice, cool bamboo sheets that just feel like everything is wonderful when you lay down. I'm somebody, I run hot at night and they help cool me off so much. They've been on our bed. Of course, we have multiple, so we change them out. But they've made a huge difference and certainly made it to where I look forward to my bed whenever I am not sleeping in it. So right now you can go to cozy earth.com slash Jefferson, use the coach Jefferson for up to 20% off. If you enjoy cool,

nice sheets that feel awesome and cozy on your bed, go to cozy earth.com slash Jefferson, use the coach Jefferson for 20% off. And now let's keep going. At what point in time do you say, okay, I kind of see a future with this person. We need to now escalate the seriousness of the conversation about what are we doing who's bringing what? Yeah. So I would say this happens when you have decided that you are going to go on multiple dates with this person and you really only want to see this person. Like we are like you're not in the dating phase of like dating all the different fish. There's my person. You have chosen your fish.

You don't have to necessarily have fully defined the relationship yet. But like even if like you are going on multiple dates together, when I was chatting with my husband about this, we were, he's a year and a half older than me. So I, and he worked in finance when we first started dating, as did I. So he knew roughly what I was making. And I knew roughly what he was making because those were kind of consistent at the different banks at that time. And so I was like, hmm, well, we've now been on four dates and he's paid for all of them. Like, I actually care about this person. I don't want to put them out.

So I asked him, I was like, hey, you've like paid for the last four dates. Like, you know, you're a banker. You're doing great. But like, should we talk about like how we should split dinners and stuff going forward? And he was like, wow, that's like really thoughtful that you. that you brought that up and even like cared to ask. I think it's about like seeing the load that is being held by any one person in a partnership in a relationship. And what we decided was that he was still making more than me.

So he was going to pay for dinner more. But like I would be picking up a certain number of our meals together. Ultimately, that became an even bigger conversation because do not do this. Irresponsibly, I decided to go on vacation with a strange man that I had met. you know, probably 45 days prior ended up working out for me. But, you know, I could have been taken, but he was fine.

He wasn't a killer. Oh, got it. This is my husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. So it worked out great for me. Yeah. But when we were planning this vacation,

the cost got real, right? It's no longer a $150 dinner. It's, you're spending thousands of dollars for flights, hotels, activities, meals in, you know, wherever you're traveling.

We took our first trip together and we were like, okay, like, how are we going to split this? And it has always been such a good conversation because we had our hard money conversations earlier, 30 days into our relationship, I had to straight up be like, this is how much I make, this is what's going on,

because I had moved into an apartment with a cockroach infestation. Blah. I know. Yuck. But I started sleeping at his place and would just have an overnight bag. Like I wanted to be in that apartment for negative four seconds every time just to swap out my wardrobe or clean clothes.

And I had to sit him down. I was like, hey, just so you know, my base salary is $80,000. My bonus last year was, I can't remember what it was at the time, probably like $15,000. I don't have the money to be paying rent on this place on an apartment that, like, my property manager is not trying to let me out of. Like, I don't have money to give you for staying at your apartment. And he was like, I never expected you to chip in on rent here. But you're bringing it up. But I brought it up and I had to tell him what I was making because I was so embarrassed and I was so ashamed that, like, one, I had moved into this disgusting Roach Hotel, but two, that I couldn't afford it.

But at that moment, he saw that and he was like, okay, well, don't worry about it just so you know, I make this much. I actually just got a really big bonus. I was top bucket, aka the top performer in his team. So I got it like that. I was go. Yeah. And because we knew that, we were so able, like, we were so easily able to budget for that vacation for dinners going forward. And I think a couple months after that we moved in together.

Let's say for the average people, community, on average, on average. That's a good way to put it. You're dating and you're on the dating scene. Yeah. And do you, well, I think I know what you would say. If you're on a date, at what point do you talk about how we're handling the bill? Well, I just think whoever invites should pay. I like that rule.

If you set it up, if you set the dinner up. Well, what if you're the only one who sets up the dinners? I guess you're the one who's going to be paying. What do you mean? Like if you're the one that's like, okay, let's put it this way. And at least the way I was raised, the guy is to be chivalrous. And if he wants to date somebody and go steady with somebody, you say, I would like to go on a date with you. And let's go have a dinner.

And so you're the one that's going to be paying. Picking up the tab. Which has zero problem. I also know people that are like, oh, know, there should be a discussion of, I'll do my half, you do your half, because it's, the guy always doesn't have to pay or whatever. And I was raised very much the guy, which I agree with, the guys pays. I don't think the guy has to pay, but I'm just going to say I've never gone on a second date with someone who made me pay for half the first date. Yeah. That's a good rule.

Like, no one's holding a gun to your head, but if you're trying to see me again, show a little investment. Yes. Because you know what it is? It is so much of a bigger investment for a woman to be in a relationship or even to date than it is for a man. First off, like, let's be really shallow for a second. She had to look nice for the date. She probably spent more money than you spent to get to that date. More time.

More time, certainly. Absolutely. But also, if you actually think of what you're trying to get at, and I always say, like, you better be dating to find your person. Otherwise, you're dating to get your heartbroken. Like, if you are planning on hopefully getting married to this person, maybe starting a family with this person, like building a life with this person, there is very literally something called the fatherhood premium and the motherhood penalty. So in a workplace, there's four people. They're all identical in terms of. of success in terms of smarts, in terms of level. There's a man with a family, man who's married with a family, single man, single woman, and woman with a family. They will be paid in that order in terms of highest to lowest. Because when you have a family, you are a stand-up guy. You have good values.

You can be trusted. And you got something that a single guy doesn't. But when a woman has a family, she's got a family. She's got a burden. She's got 4 p.m. pickup from daycare. She's got extra mental load to carry at home. She's probably not as committed to her job. So men get a benefit for dating, and women actually get a penalty.

How interesting. And so if you and I are on a first date, and I know all of this, yeah, it would be nice if you picked it up. Yeah. That's a given every time. Yeah. You think there is a place where I know, couples that are married and still split finances? Yeah.

Even though they're married. Yeah. Do you see advantages or disadvantages to that? Or is it just like you go, you know what, to each their own? I think it's to each their own. But what I encourage everybody listening to this to do is still make sure you have your own money. I do not care how much you are in love with your spouse. I do not care how good they are to you, how rich they are.

I don't care. You need to have your own money. your own bank account that they are not a joint account holder on that is only yours and you need to have it because 99% of domestic violence cases include financial abuse and unfortunately for many in the majority of women if you can't afford to leave you don't right and so i'll be honest my husband and i use a yours mine and our system. So we each have our own money and that we can use to really, you know, be spending on things. Like he wants to go play a round of golf with his friends. Great. Go do that. Like, I'm not watching your pockets. Yeah. For me, it's a Yetty cooler. That's pretty much fun.

Another Yet I can't have enough. It's bad. What are you cooling? I don't know. I really, most of the time, nothing. I think I think I just like them. Like you have a fridge. I do, but no, I can't take the fridge with me. I think if I did, it would, I would want another one. That would make a three. Okay. You have to have one's a different sizes. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole thing.

It's a process. And for me, if I want to go and buy a beautiful dress or I want to go get, you know, my nails done, like I want to be able to do that. I work very hard. I make my money. You can't tell me not to do that. But we also have an hours account, which pays for a lot of our joint expenses. So housing, utilities, like any sort of big thing. So like our wedding was our joint account paid for that.

Like we share those expenses because we benefit from them equally and we don't necessarily have to put the same amount of money into that joint account. Okay. But it is our, our money. So I want you to speak to, it makes me think of women. Yeah. Who I know, who their husband makes all of the income. Yep. And it makes all of the money decisions.

And there are, but that's the reality. Yeah. And they don't want, if they were to buy anything that would be considered semi-expensive, they have to go get permission. Okay? Yeah. That's a reality. Yeah. No, it is.

And how do you speak to those women who say, I mean, that sounds great. I would love the security of what that's what that is, of just that sense of control over some amount that is just mine. Yeah. But I am not working. Yeah. Because I'm raising these kids. Yeah. And if I were to ever bring up the conversation of I'd like my own money, that's going to bring a lot of hard conversations.

Unfortunately, I think you have to have the hard conversation. And the hard conversation doesn't have to be, hey, I don't trust you. I'm planning on leaving at some point. Like, give me my own money. No, it's, hey, like, we have made a decision as a family that it doesn't make sense for me to be in the workforce. course because child care is too expensive or, you know, we've decided that we need someone at home who's the household CEO. But just because the working spouse is the one going out of the house and making the money, that wouldn't necessarily be possible if the stay-at-home spouse wasn't taking care of everything at home. Right.

Being the kids tutor, chauffeur, chef, literally nanny, all of those things. Everything. And so I would have a conversation of like, is there a way we can set it up so that there is a budget set aside for me every month for discretionary expenses that not only cover things that I might just want to do for our family, but also things that I want to do for myself. And I think the people who are scared to have these conversations, what really breaks my heart is that like that might not necessarily. be as good of a relationship as I want them to be in. Because your partner should want financial stability for you. Like, your partner should want you to be able to stand on your own two feet.

They want to be able to love you as a person, not just because you depend on them. Like, if you only love them because you depend on them, you're not a person, you're a pet. Right. And I think that a lot of women need to have a long, hard look at some of their partners. and ask, does my partner actually want the best for me?

That's good. I like that. I agree with that. I wish it wasn't kind of such a painful answer, but. It's what it is. Yeah. And you care enough about your community and mine as well as they have to hear the answer that it needs. How do you, how should somebody think of talking to their kids about money?

I think having age appropriate conversations is the best thing we can. can do for them. I'm not asking you to share all of your financial details to a fifth grader who's 1,000 percent, by the way, taking it to school and telling all of his friends. All of her friends, they're going to know. What I'm saying is like when you go to the grocery store and you have a budget and the groceries for the week you budgeted $120 for, okay, and you are going through the cart and you can literally do the exercise. So, hey, dad, loves brand name owes brand name owes cost

I love owes $4 a box okay store brand owes cost $2.30 cents what's the difference have them do that math

like you know a fifth grader should certainly be able to do that math pretty easily but also like what is the value of one versus the other I want that kid to be like why don't we just get the store brand owes and then you can give me that 170 for a candy bar. That's budgeting.

That's prioritization. That candy bar has been prioritized over your name Brando's. And listen, like, I'm making a joke about your cereal comment, but like, that is a skill that that kid will one day have to do for themselves.

Of what are the tradeoffs? If I have a finite amount of money, what groceries am I buying, how am I making smart decisions? As they get older, hey, sit down. We ought to have a conversation. Okay, this is how much mom makes.

Mom and I are having, you know, a discussion about her next career move. She is being offered a job that pays more but is further away or a job that pays less and is still closer to home. The tradeoff is if she takes the job that's a little further away, you know, maybe she can't make it to every single cheerleading practice. Maybe she can't make it to every single ballet recital. Like, have that discussion as a family. Obviously, the adults are going to have to make the true end-all-be-all discussion. But, like, include them. Right.

I feel like so many kids also feel like they're being jerked around by their parents and just hammered with big decisions at the last minute. Why not have the discussion? Because at some point, that kid is also going to have to decide, do I opt for a longer commute for higher pay or a shorter one or which apartment is more expensive. And when you prepare them for those life skills during a time when it doesn't, where the stakes are zero, because you're still covering the bills, you're still taking care of them, it doesn't feel so scary when they do it the next time. I think one of the best ways you could start to talk to your kids about money is to start talking to your kids about money.

Yeah. And I want to make sure that my audience hears because I know you've been working on. something that to me has just totally blown the roof off of any kind of money financial tools and it's so much more than that but I want you to tell me and tell our listeners about your app ask dolly because this thing is just incredible and I wish Vivian I wish I had this when I was like starting in college probably even earlier so basically I was getting so many questions about money in my DMs, and because I felt like... Is it your AI?

It's not, actually. It's way better than that. I've built a standalone app that allows you to do a financial wellness assessment of your money. So you know how you go and get a physical every year? And they take your blood and they're like, hey, Jefferson, everything looks great, but you got to watch that cholesterol. Right. Because there are certain things that you're doing really well and certain things that you need to improve on.

We do the exact same thing, but with your money.