The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Stop Arguing With Narcissists — Do This Instead

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

In this episode, I break down the one sentence a narcissist can’t argue with — and why most conversations with manipulative people turn into exhausting endurance tests. You’ll learn why logic never works, how narcissists weaponize your emotions, and the simple shift that helps you regain control instead of getting drained. If you’ve ever walked away from a conversation feeling frustrated, confused, or completely worn out, this episode will change how you handle it. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Mill. Try risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at https://www.mill.com/jefferson  and use code JEFFERSON at checkout. ZocDoc. https://zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Or... The score bet. Trusted sports content, seamless sports betting. Download today. 19 plus, Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to conicsonterio.ca. There is one sentence that a narcissist can never argue with.

Today on the Jefferson Fisher podcast, there are so many people that tell you what not to say to a narcissist. Here on this podcast, I'm going to tell you what to say when this happens. And I want to make sure you know there are lots of people who exhibit narcissistic traits, tendencies, behaviors, you name it. In this episode today, I want to speak to you to give you something that you can use because you and I both know narcissists, they don't lose. arguments. That's just not a thing. They don't win them either. They just exhaust them. And in exchange, they exhaust you. So here's how to handle it. Let's go. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast, for I'm an mission to make your next conversation, the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tips and tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask that wherever you're

listening, press subscribe or a like or a heart or a follow or a comment. It really really makes a difference, not only to me, but also to my family. In exchange, my promises that I'm going to It's the best of my ability, make you a better communicator if you subscribe and listen to these episodes. If you're watching right now, you know that I am in the car. Why? Because there's something called snow days in the world, and our town is not equipped for snowy roads, icy roads. And they have continued to cancel school. What was thought going to be just two days ended up being a whole week.

And now we've had the weekend, Saturday, Sunday, and we think, okay, great, school's going to be back in session. We're going to get back to normal. Psych. They canceled it Monday. So I'm here in the car because the kids are doing their thing. It's been great. And also for parents, you know, it's cabin fever. It's, it's Lord of the flies. It's crazy. It's may am. But to that end, I'm excited. Today's podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. One of the main reasons I love Cozy Earth so much is that their products are just quality. For those who just listen to the past episode, you know that I actually use my own code to buy some house slippers.

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I have a narcissistic brother or family member or somebody that I work with. And I don't really know what to say to them. I don't know how to deal with. it and I know and you know that the best piece of advice is if you have the chance of choice don't right don't talk to them don't argue with them don't have a conflict with them but to me that advice always falls short because there's just times where you're going to have to talk to them you have to have an interaction with them it's it's impossible if not impractical to be able to converse with somebody that's in your life whether at home or at work. Here is three things that I want you to, with precision, focus on. And I want you to use what I'm

about to tell you to bring the lights and things the next time that you are in a conversation with this person. I want you to remember this. These are three things that are very important that you need to know. Number one, logic does not work on people who are trying to manipulate you. It doesn't work. How many times have you said, no, no, no, no, let me lay this out for you and you go one plus one equals two, remember? And then two plus two equals four, right? And then we got to four, then we counted four, five, six, seven. You see, and you start explaining your reasoning. And they go, no, no, no, this is a math class. I thought we were in social studies. This is physics. What are you talking about? And they change the whole dynamic on you. Reason does not work. Logic does not work.

where you think if I can only just explain it in a way that makes sense and that's the trap that we fall into you think if I can just explain it in a way that makes sense maybe it's me maybe I'm not explaining it in a way that's computing with them so let me go back and start from the beginning and start counting the one plus one and start showing my work you remember some of you may have to go back where in class in math class it wasn't enough for you just to have the right answer. You had to what? Show your work.

What does that mean? You had to show right down how you got to the answer. And so many times with people who have narcissistic tendencies and narcissists, they act like they want to see the homework. They want to see the work, but they don't look at it. They don't care. They really don't. They just want you to go through the hoops. Why?

Because they want the whole experience to exhaust. you. That's really what they're not in it for the actual reason. They're in it for longevity. So what's going to happen is the next time you need to talk to somebody who's a narcissist, somebody that makes things so much more difficult than it needs to be. You're going to start to fall into the temptation or trap to all of a sudden explain your reasoning in the most simple way that you can. I know listening, there's got to be some of you nodding your head of, I've been this. I've been there or I said, no, no, don't you remember we did this? You said this and you try and almost, if you could, write it out to say, here's, I'm trying to make sense to you. This is not reasonable

the way that we're going about this. They don't care. Listen, they don't care. That's not what they're in there for. Logic does not work on people trying to manipulate you. They're not listening to your reasoning. They're listening for leverage. And there are really two main things that they use as leverage. One is your reasoning. Two is your emotions. When I say they're listening for your reasoning, in other words, they're listening for what they can use to reframe. So when you start over-explaining in an attempt to reach the same, what you thought is the same destination of coming to have a meeting of the minds, to have some clarity, that's not their goal. That's. clarity is not their goal. It is weaponized confusion. It is something to have that control. They're not

looking for clarity. They're looking for control. So when you start laying out your reasoning and saying, if I just show my homework more, the better this is going to go, they're actually just collecting data. They're collecting information, things that they can use as leverage to make things harder on you. Have you ever tried to explain yourself and move a conversation forward? And they go, well, but you didn't say that last time, And, you know, if you think that, then why didn't you just, and they start just digging daggers into what you're saying. You go, hey, I'm trying, I'm trying to move this conversation in a positive place. And you keep just cutting my feet out from under me because they want to pinpoint. They want to poke.

They want to prod. They're not going at the same place you are. Y'all aren't headed in the same destination. You're not going to the same place. You're looking for clarity. they're looking for confusion. They're looking for control. You're not going to get to the same place.

It is a very frustrating feeling. When you go in your head, let me just lay this out for you, step by step, and I'm going to, I want this to be a reasonable conversation. Can we just be reasonable here? And instead,

they use that same feeling, right? So we talked about one, how they use your reasons as leverage, right? we're now going to talk about how they use your emotions. They're going to pick up on where you're headed of, let's say the word is reasonable. They're going to say, well, you know what, are you crazy? Like, they're going to start using the fact that you're wanting to be reasonable and then flip that of how unreasonable you are. I can't believe how unreasonable you're being right now.

Really, are you, whatever value you're trying to give, they're going to twist it. So maybe they're picking up that you're taking it. slow and you decide you know what i'm just going to be kind right now i'm just going to have some kindness they're going to flip it on you use it leverage it and say i i just feel like you're being so unkind right now i you know the way you talk to me do you know how you talk to me right now do you think you talk to anybody else like that you think anybody else would tolerate how you treat me right now and you're thinking i i'm being as nice as i as i possibly can same thing with fairness all of a sudden they'll flip it you're being so unfair they know that you you value these things

things. They leverage them to upset you in order to have control. All right. So I want to, I know we were chomping and chewing on some heavy things right there. I want to refresh that and reframe that and smooth that up. Number one, logic does not work on somebody who's trying to manipulate you. Reason does not work on somebody who's trying to manipulate you. Instead of looking for clarity, like you are, they're looking for control. And they do that really in two ways. They're looking to leverage your reasons, your explanations that you're trying to give to put the conversation into clarity. And two, they're trying to leverage your emotions, things that they know that are important to you, that they're picking up on, that they can flip, that's going to hurt you most.

Because the more they hurt you, the more they frustrates you, the more they got you exactly where they want. And that's their wheelhouse. That's their playground. All right. Number two, I want you to watch out because arguments with a narcissist turn into endurance tests. What does that mean? they will go as long as they need to go to exhaust you. Have you ever been in an argument with

somebody that's such a frustrating, horrible personality, toxic personality, and how do you feel afterwards? You are not just drained mentally, you're also drained physically and you're also drained emotionally, where you just, maybe you just want to stare out the window and sit in silence. Maybe you're driving and you don't even have the radio line because you just need quiet. You just need some kind of rest. Or maybe you just want to curl up on the couch or in bed and you really don't have the energy to do anything enjoyable. Because they've taken it from you. And you've allowed them to take it.

When those moments happen, when you're in that actual conversation, not only do I want you to think logic doesn't work, I want you to think shorter the better. This is not a marathon. This is not something where you're trying to qualify to say, let me go to the Boston, New York Marathon, and the longer I argue, the better this is going to go. That is wrong thinking. Arguments in conversations with people like this are endurance tests,

and here's the thing, you will lose that test. Because you have empathy. They can't do empathy. They could care less about, your emotions, about your logic. Instead, it is how long can I talk until this person gives up? How frustrated can I make them until they just walk away? And most of the time, it doesn't take us all that long. Like, I am somebody who, after a while, it's not that I have a short fuse, it's that I can know quickly if this is going to be a productive conversation or not. And if I,

can pick up that it's not, I'm going to end that conversation right then. I'm not going to test it. I'm not going to try and see a little bit more if they're willing to work with me and kind of not meet me in the middle, but have a productive, can we move this conversation forward? If I know that they're not going to do that and I'm picking that up, then there's no point to continue in the conversation. I want to take a moment to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast and they're called Mill. I get lots of sponsor requests, and this is one that I looked at and thought, this would be cool. Let me try it out. Y'all, it has changed the game in our kitchen.

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No, it takes away all of that stuff. So it's not just your eggshells or coffee grounds or anything, like that you can put just about any food into it and it's just pretty incredible try mill risk free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com slash jefferson and use code jefferson at checkout that's $75 off at mill dot com slash jefferson and use code jefferson mill dot com slash jefferson and use code jefferson and now let's keep going i'm going to say something that is going to step on some people's toes and it's but it's that's my job you need to hear it you're talking too much you're talking too long you're in the conversation much longer than the other person deserves you are giving them too much of

your time your time is the only thing that we got on this earth and you're giving it to them freely at the cost of your frustration at the cost of your frustration at the cost of your peace of mind at the cost of your, not only your mental health, but your physical health, and you're giving it. They don't deserve that. An endurance test, life is too short for that. Even when people who run marathons, they train for it. That is the goal to last, to endure.

It has to do with physical strength. This is something of the mind, or people are trying to trip you up every step of the way. It's not a race you're going to win. In fact, it shouldn't be a race at all. The next time that you find yourself slipping into a mindset of, let me just say this one more thing, because this is the thing that's going to get them. Let me just, if I just put these words out there, this is the phrase that's really going to hit them in the heart. You're kidding yourself. It's not going to happen. I know what that's like thinking if I word the perfect email or I put in the perfect text or I say the perfect thing and I crafted in a way that I think is really going to hit them in the heart

and going to change how they see the scenario. Do you know how often that's happened with somebody who's a narcissist? Never. Never. In turn, me trying to explain and give a little bit more has only turned to multiply onto me in pain tenfold. And I'm guessing that's happening to you two. They're in it for an endurance test,

and it's a test in race that we're not going to. to win. So the shorter, the better. Cool. And number three, there's something I want you to remember and write it down if you can. Firm ends conversations. Reactive extends them. Firm ends. Reactive extends. What does that mean? When you're in these conversations with somebody who's exhibiting narcissistic traits and behaviors, the more reactive you are, the longer that conversation is going to go. The more firm you are, the less reactive, the shorter the conversations go, because you're not giving them anything to go on. They have less that they can use. That's why when you're trying to offer logic, it's prolonging it, right? You're reacting to what they said and they grab it and

twist it. When you talk longer and you want to kind of try and compete with them on this endurance test, they're going to take it and twist it and it's always going to be you that that loses because they they don't they don't do any other way so firm in this conversation here's what i want you to think in your mind periods not ellipses not exclamation points periods if i'm going to say to you i'm not going there period or versus me saying you know what this is just like you

dot dot dot which one's going to prolong the conversation which one is going to be more reactive it's always the dot dot dot dot it's me leaving it open this is just like you you know what I come to expect this for me you are just like your mother

you are just like you know what I shouldn't even this is exactly what I should come to expect from you that kind of stuff is only going to fuel their fire. I am pleading with you. Use more periods. Here's a test. Can you use a sentence in less than 10 words

and that'd be your only response to them? Is that something you can try and do? The long paragraphs, forget it. In a text, maybe you're texting your ex and is over something with the kids and you want to do a big paragraph. Forget it. That's not, you are much better doing short, choppy, less than 10-word sentences back and forth,

rather than having this whole paragraph. It's only going to inflame because they're going to find a way to twist every single thing that you say. Neutral words, the better. I like to teach neutral words, which are something as easy as good to know. Thanks, noted, got it. Can't do anything with those. So I'm going to give you a sentence in my world that has proven to me that a narcissist can't argue with it. And I'm going to give you a story that supports it and how I've used it and why I've used it.

So I had a case with opposing attorney once who he was just the snobiest of the snobs. I mean, he had the fanciest watches, you could think. He had the, I think he had a Lamborghini. Like, it just, everything dripped wealth from him, which, what does that mean? Really, he's lacking a lot of things on the inside, so he's got to show off on the outside. That's kind of my opinion. Anyway, he was making a case extremely difficult for me to get anything done. And here I am.

I'm generally a very even. in Q, I'm going to talk to you about our case and work together because the more I can work together, the better results can be for not only my client, but also their client. And he said something to me of like, and he was an older guy. And he said, you know, Jefferson, this is exactly the kind of thinking, you know, that's just going to make you regret everything in this case. And I'm just going to make you regret everything. That's what he said. Right. Pinpointing on my thinking is going to make me regret the whole case in ever knowing him and dealing with him. I'm going to make you regret this. And this is a sentence that I used. Of course, I took a breath, let him get that out.

And I said, you know, I'm comfortable where I'm at. Simple as that. I said, I'm comfortable where I'm at. And he just went, oh, well, I mean, you, I mean, that's fine. That's fine. And he hung up. Right. That's what happened. He hung up. and I've used that phrase so many times. I'm comfortable where I'm at. That's the phrase. Let me tell you why it works. Let me tell you why I think it's going to help you.

All right. People, so many of the people that are in a bad state, narcissistic tendencies, behaviors, narcissists, they're anything but comfortable. They wish they could be comfortable. and they're not. They don't like them. They act like they lock themselves.

Deep down, they really don't like themselves. There are people that have this such grandiosity about them. Deep down, they're really hurting in many ways, but they never know. I'd never admit to it. Why? Because everything is that they touch is gold. They can never admit to anything like that.

But comfort is not something that they're used to. You think of people who are difficult personalities. Comfort is a very odd word to them. They can't imagine actually being comfortable. Comfortable in what, their own skin? Comfortable in what they believe? Comfortable and how they talk to people. Comfortable physically.

Comfortable in their mind. They're always anxious or always having a hard time or always wanting to blame somebody else, always having this victim mentality. When you tell them, I'm comfortable where I'm at, And it doesn't even have to be a narcissist that you're talking. You can be anybody.

Like conflict, an argument, a disagreement, you say, I'm comfortable where I'm at. They really can't do anything with it. All they can do is just wish that they were comfortable, but they're not. To me, there hasn't been a single reply that has been worth anything to that response. I'm not saying they can't say anything. Of course, they're going to say words. It's not like they just going to go quiet. Even the guy that I had, he said, that's fine, and then hung up.

I'm saying they can't use that to prolong. They can't use that in their endurance test. They can't use that to extend. Can't use that to control. I'm telling them I'm comfortable where I'm at. Whatever it is, my opinion, my thinking. So often, when they try to leverage the reasons, like we talked about, when they say, well, if you really thought that, you'd think, well, you know,

what you're not seeing is x, y, and z, or, you know, what about the time you did x? And they're trying to twist you. They're trying to move you off center. And if you just repeat, I'm comfortable where I'm at, some pretty awesome things happen. You realize all of a sudden, it's not just you explaining that you're comfortable, you feel comfortable. I want to take a moment to tell you about Zoc Doc. Of anybody listening right now, who has been putting off a doctor's appointment? I have, that's for sure, whether it's the doctor's.

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to find and instantly book a doctor you'll love today. That is ZOC, doc.com slash Jefferson. Zock-Doc-com slash Jefferson. Thanks Zock-Doc-Doc for sponsoring this message. And now let's keep going. so when you say things there's not just an effect on the other person there's an effect on you so when you say i'm comfortable where i'm at not only are you signaling to them that you're comfortable you're signaling to yourself that i'm comfortable you know what's going to happen all of a sudden

you feel more comfortable and now you're exuding more comfort and all of a sudden you don't feel as much like you have to prove things that you have to push you can just be I'm comfortable where I'm at. I hear you. Yeah, I got it. I'm comfortable where I'm at. Yeah, thank you. I'm comfortable where I'm at.

It's like advice that I've given to a teenager before with peer pressure. Somebody tries to put pressure you into things. Then you use the word pressure. I'm not really feeling any pressure to do that. I'm not feeling any pressure. Whenever you say words, sometimes they act like release valves for us. And in that moment, when you can use the word comfort and apply it to yourself, you will start to feel more comfortable. And that's a really good thing.

All right. What do we learn? Number one, logic does not work with narcissists. Reason does not work. They're trying to leverage your reasons, your explanations, and your emotions. And that only hurts you. Two, they're in it for endurance. How long can they argue?

Shorter is better. And number three, when it all comes down to it, For ends, reactive extends. To the less you say the better, use periods, not ellipses. And if there is one sentence that I can tell you has worked for me, and I know it will work for you, is that when you don't really know what to say, and they're trying to challenge you, move you off center,

trying to change your mind to something or control your mind to something that you know is not true, center yourself with the phrase, I'm comfortable where I'm at. And when you're more comfortable, You speak with more control and more confidence, and that's what the Jefferson Fisher podcast is all about. Also, I want to share some exciting news, and that is that the next conversation workbook is officially out for presale. You can find the links down in the show notes.

This is a workbook that I've spent a lot of hours on, making sure that is packed full of practical exercises. So if you enjoyed the next conversation, my book, or if you're listening to right now and really enjoy the podcast, you're going to love the workbook, something that you can actually put your hands on, write in, and improve your next conversation. So go get it. All right, can try that and follow me.