The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Stop Letting Emotions Make Decisions with Emma Grede

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ There’s a version of you that keeps waiting—for permission, for clarity, for someone to hand you the opportunity. In this conversation, I sit down with Emma Grede to challenge that thinking head-on. She breaks down what it actually takes to lead, build, and succeed at the highest level—without hiding behind politeness, fear, or overthinking. If you want more confidence, more clarity, and more control over your life and career, this is where it starts: with yourself. Buy Emma’s new book: Start with Yourself: A New Vision for Work & Life https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Start-With-Yourself/Emma-Grede/9781668085486  Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. LMNT. Head to https://drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try risk free. Timeline. Their clinically proven formula is now available at a new, lower price. Mitopure now starts at $79, when you go to https://timeline.com/jefferson  BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Before we get into it, quick note, I just launched a premium version of the podcast on Supercast. If you want ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs where I answer your questions directly, it's all there. If you like to support the show and get access to all of that, I want you to go to jefferson.com or you can check the link in the description below to join. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast. Today, my guest is my friend Emma Greed. She is the founding partner of Skims, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Good American, and has a roster of businesses and foundation boards and shows that she is a part of. This woman is incredible. Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma, and that is the first time I met her at her

podcast, Aspire, which is in the Skim's office there in L.A. I was actually intimidated. Before I even met her, all of her team showed up, and let me tell you what, she has a very very very, very important. She has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing a business. And so this was my very first interaction with her, so we get to have fun with that. Also, she has a book coming out called Start With Yourself, A New Vision for Work and Life, which is out today. The links down there in the show notes. We also took a deep dive on being direct. What does it mean, how to do it without apology, and with confidence. We talk family, we talk career, we talk business, and we also talked about that other B word, balance, if there even is such a thing. I hope you enjoy.

I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that a few months ago, almost a year ago? It was, what was it? It was almost, you were literally like the first, one of the first interviews I ever did. And I was like, I cannot believe I'm speaking to Jefferson as like day two. No, it was true. Well, I get up there and I, you know, I don't wear skims. I don't wear, you know, the jeans. So I get up there and this is, I think it was, it might have been at skims, like one of the places,

obviously I need to update on the brain names. I was going to say, clearly you need to update the underwear closet. That's what I was thinking of. Yeah, yeah, I need to upgrade my shapewear. Why don't wear skims? I don't understand. Hey, the new collab. Okay, so anyway, I get up there, get off the elevator.

And everybody was just buzzing, all right? And it felt like the movie Devil Worse Prada, which I've only seen once. But it was like, I was saying, I was like, okay, who is this woman? I was coming in. I was like, I know. I was like, oh my gosh, should I be worried of like, because everybody in your office was like had it down to a T look serious and was moving and going and eight different things happened at once. and all I know it was like she's almost here and I was like what is happening. And I remember I remember being in the little podcast like beautiful little waiting room

and they're like she's miscreate's about to be here with you. And I was like, oh my, okay, everybody was like, you better be ready. And you come in, okay? And you were the most like charming, laughing, just spurting out just the most casual, easygoing. that being said also the one that I could tell oh if she wanted to she could crank the temperature on everybody even more like I knew in the background I was like she's she's one of the most charming people I've ever met but I know deep down this is not somebody that you you mess around with so I can say I feel like you've got me in one yeah yeah I am living proof that the stuff the book that you

have start with yourself works so it's so listen it's so true my podcast is in a cupboard in my office and it's the only way it would work for me right like it has to be right there and when I interviewed you it was right in the like the super super early days I'd interviewed Jay Shelly and then you and I was like oh my god like this is so crazy but again of course because of who you are then Cardi B yeah it's that the three of you yeah me to Cardi B is a very easy a very natural same same set just lovely people with the with the with the with the with voice that just puts you at ease. It's the same thing. Exactly. You go see. There we go. Same same. That's why. I'll tell Cardi. Yeah, please. Your book. All right,

start with yourself. At first I thought, you know, I got it. And I said, okay, this is, is this, is it almost wrong to have that mentality? And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that made me go, okay, I'm going to keep reading and understanding that, no, it's, it's about making sure that, that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself. And when you say, before I blame this, before I blame that, before I start trying to fix everybody else, how about you start fixing yourself? And so once I had that type of perspective switch, I said, okay, this is really great. And we're going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode. But you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think,

as many people appreciate just the level of things that you have to, you get to, not have to, you get to, manage and be responsible for and balance and juggles. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do. The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find, and maybe in meeting with somebody, what do you think is, and let's put it in the business context first,

what's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships? Oh, you know, first of all, I'm going to, first of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today, and I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this context around the book. You know, there are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on,

what do you do? You know? Oh, yeah, yeah. What? Like, hello? Who are you? How are you? Like, what do you know?

To me, that's always a red flag. And, you know, I think that in business you can understand so much about a person from that initial introduction. Like, you know when someone sees you. You know when someone sees past you. And I'm a real people person. Like, I will not remember your name. But I will remember how your grand.

father came into the country. But that's also because I'd bother to ask you that question. And so to me, I like to figure out in business or otherwise that the essence of a person. Like, who are you? Like, how do you come here in this room? And so when somebody starts, like, trying to figure out, like, what's in it for them? How can I help them? That's like a red flag to me. I'm like, you're already out. It's already over for me and you. When it starts really superficial, when it starts really superficial, I can see that. I think that's something that the older you get that changes, right? Like I am, you know, I'm 40, I keep telling everyone I'm 42.

I'm 43. My husband had to come and stop me the other days. I've heard you say it three times today. You're 43. So I'm 43 now. And I think that part of even this journey that I've just been on writing this book for the last couple of years, like you get close to yourself. You start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in understanding.

other people and what makes them uniquely who they are. And you said in your book, and I've seen some other interviews, because I listen to you too, Emma. It's not just one way. It's not one way. Thanks. It's not just one way. It's a two-way road. Of understanding also the value, or at least not being afraid to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional, where you don't have to, because it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake,

when you know they're going to be asking for something. They're saying is just own that. I would rather you own that than try and be genuine. So do you see that as something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something from me. And it's, how does that process for you? Yeah, I don't want to shy away from that. Because as a woman in business, I think that often we're kind of trained to kind of like have this almost like performative politeness, soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money.

That's the purpose of business. Like that's okay in that context. And so I don't like to, I'm a very straightforward person with a very high moral baseline. You know exactly what I want because I told you, not because I'm trying to. hide behind something and then like sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are, it actually takes all of the all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book, you know, by the way, I wanted people to use, not just to buy it, buy it and to read. I was like,

how do you create something that is useful? And it's about self-leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are going to do. But we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in, right? And so I think that that is really important. And that's important in business and it's important in life more generally. I get such a treasure talking to you. Now, this is the second time we've had the chance to meet. And of course, we've communicated since. But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses and somebody who is a woman and a woman of color and to say,

okay, I know that when somebody asks me a white male, say, how do you say things direct? All right? And I know my perspective is just one. And I will get comments, which are. very well received of that wouldn't work for me. That doesn't work in the in I'm a woman that's not going to work for me. You don't understand what that's like and the answer is I do not know what that's like that's correct. And so here I have to me an expert that I couldn't think it was any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world as a business woman, how do you speak

with directness? Just like a white guy. Oh, let's not do that, please. Here's the thing. You know, it's really funny because I feel like, I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I'm married to a white man. A lot of my investors are white men. And in so many ways, you know, early I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me.

I think I'm a really straight shooter. And I think a lot of that was informed from where I was born. I was born in East London, which is like the hood, you know. And so this idea of having a high moral base sign, I didn't realize, I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from. But you tell the truth, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're going to do something, that you do it. And I carried all of those traits into business.

And I think that so much of business is about how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling? How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about like one individual moment. And so I think that what I've built in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright because people know who I am. They know that I'm going to come good on my word. They know that I am going to do exactly what I say and that I'm not full of it.

And so I really have kind of spent my career not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do. And that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm on this kind of book tour, you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me. Three. No way. That's awesome. And thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me because, you know, it's like how you treat. people and how you leave people feeling.

That has the biggest impact than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I, I don't know, I try to be very just who I am and I make no apologies for it. I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious. And I have been, I think, working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women because it isn't used in the same way for women. as it's used for men. And I'd kind of like to change that a little bit.

I think you are. She's ambitious in like a... That is such a quote. Did you come up with that? I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do. Like that is... No, I didn't, but I'm taking it.

Did you just come up with that right now? I just came up with that now. Okay. Okay, Emma, that is such a killer line. Like, you need your social team. All right, listen. to me? I know they're listening right now. I'm going to tell them a little bit. Guys, Jefferson said. They need to put this in a quote. I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do.

Like that is, that is t-shirt mugworthy. You need to get on it. We're doing it. We're doing it because you said so. Yeah. No, okay, I think that's that's a great point of ambition seems to be, have certain connotations with it when it comes to men. Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women. And I hear you saying, I want to change, I want to change that. And I think you're a living example of that. When I hear you say, okay, to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not just what I say, it's what they can see me do and see me follow up on. I want to know, this is me, this is where I'm loving this. I get to kind of tease out how Emma thinks about things. So when you're saying, okay, you're walking into the office, you have a

room full, you know it's crazy, your schedule's packed. When you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of moment, I just got out of the car, I'm about to go into the room. Where is your mind in that place? Is it, how do you, how do you balance the, the performative of I have to look the part and balance the personal of embodying the part? That is such a good question because all of us, we can't. with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mum of four, like, my mornings are so intense, you know, by 8am, I have trained, I've probably done one kid's hair, I've had half a breakfast, I've got, you know, like, so much going on around me. And I get in the car, I'm on a call,

and I walk in the office, and it's like, you know, the first, like, meeting. I think the thing that I've really learned to do is to bring myself, like, into any situation, Like, I'm not a multitasker. Like, I do the thing that's in front of me and I give it everything. Like, I am big on eye contact. If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like, it's over. It's just over. I need, like, undivided attention.

But in return, I give undivided attention. I'm a real, like, in the room person. And that is, by the way, a superpower in business, because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly. Like, I'm not going to have 27 emails. They don't, like, everybody knows. As soon as an email is past two paragraphs,

I'm like, I'm dyslexic, I'm not reading that. So it's like, I want the speed, I want the connection and I want the concentration of like the whole thing. But I'm really somebody who's very mindful. Like, I know I have a very commanding presence. And so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everywhere. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your office. I walk in and I'm like, morning, everyone.

And I'm also like, I'm a chatty cafe. So I'm like, what did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg? You know, it's like, I do that because I am, I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where are we. And then we can get into it. And then we can be like really all about the business.

But I think it's important to just have that level of, presence and that is a gift when we live how we live right now. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love having Cozy Earth as a sponsor because I love wearing their stuff long before they were ever part of this show. The thing I like most about Cozy Earth is just how soft everything they have is. I'm a big sweatshirt guy. I'm a big hoodie guy. I like that balance where you can wear like a hoodie and then some shorts. I'm one of those crazy. weird people, I love cozy earth for that exact reason. So anytime I can gift something to a friend, it's usually some kind of hoodie or sweatshirt because I want them to feel just as cozy as I do. So

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for up to 20% off. You will not regret it. And now back to the episode. Do you think presence is a learned skill? Or is it something that you think you were born with in East London? You know, if I didn't have my wits about me, that was problematic. You needed to be present.

You can't be away with the fairies there. That's for sure. I think that it's become more attuned since I had kids. Because kids don't need that much. But what they do need is that all of you. You can't be like half having an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work.

Because that couple of hours, that dinner time, bedtime, bedtime, story time, that needs to be like un- encumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually like a disaster. I only get the problems now. You know, my whole day is a series of problems. So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself. It's a gift that you give the people around you, but it's probably like, it's just so important. And it's an underrated thing to just be like single-minded and thoughtful and like in the moment.

but it is a super power. If we could poll your team, because I know you have a lot of people, you know, the eye of your hurricane, that is Emma, if we were to poll some of them. How many polling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds? Yeah, let's say you're top 20. Let's say your top 20, you know, what would they say in terms of communication that you excel at and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better. I mean that they would say I am clear.

Like, nobody is ever wondering, what's Emma thinking? I already told you. Like, we're not waiting for an assessment. I already told you. And I think that that is really important. Like, I'm in constant communication. And when you run businesses, having clarity about the goals. And I think that this has to go beyond the top 20, right?

It's like I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something and when I have a set of priorities for any given business, I need everybody working towards us. And so having that clarity is really important. So I think that people think I'm clear. They think I'm firm, right? I don't really suffer fools. But I think that they would say I'm fair. I think the majority of people would say, wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot and she was really fair.

On the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time, because that's about clarity of the vision, right? And I'm going to double, double, treble down. So somebody comes to me and then, I don't know what thing to work on. I'm like, wait a minute, we have the dirt and the dirt and the dirt. So drop everything else and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas. and a repeater just in the sense of like, I think it's really important for clarity.

I like that you said, I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair. I find that that's a characteristic. You know, I come from a family of teachers. You know, my mom's a teacher, my sister's a teacher.

And that was one thing my mom would always say. Like, she was known as kind of the scary teacher at school. But she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was, they realized it was for their good, it was for their benefit, that firmness. And I think you hit on something true

is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. How do you, like you said, you don't suffer fools. What's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the rooms that you're walking into in business to know like what's what's the secret to being firm in communication? I think the secret is I would say that it is consistency, right? I don't think that you can be flip floppy and firm like that.

That's not going to work. You have to be really super consistent. An element of fairness. So I think that you, you know, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand because people need to understand where am I in all of this? Like what bit is my responsibility? What part is? What part?

And when I say fairness, because, you know, again, like so little in the world is fair. But when you have consistency and when you're fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion PR, I packed the box. I packed the samples, I wrote the notes, then I got onto a desk, then you know, you're kind of like running around back show at fashion shows and like laying flooring. I worked in production. It's like I did every single thing on the way up, which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a right now, you know, it's like the clothing organisations. I understand the junior merchants job because I was there. It's like I know that stuff. And I think that. that when you are a firm person coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place where people feel seen. And oftentimes the work isn't fair, right? It never feels that way. But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything, that I worked for it and I appreciate them and I have an understanding of them.

And in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically. I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about specifically. on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a woman, again, because these are things that I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can. And so, you know, my question is like when you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank, when you've seen all these men, okay, saying this is how to do business, this is how to do it. And you come in here going, yeah, can do it just as well and and be able to spend five plates at the same time. You know, what, what do you want to say to those men in the moment?

What are they, what are we, you know, missing when it comes to, is there like an unlock to say this is a special way or is, let me ask, I'm going to, I'm talking right now because I find the subject, I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women, speak with more directness. And there's sometimes, I feel like I miss the point. And it's because I haven't been where they've been and I haven't stood where they stood. And that sometimes makes me feel helpless. And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them? What am I missing? No, well, first of all, the idea that you even think about it like that, I think is such an excellent starting point. And what I wrote about in the book, in Start with Yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making.

And I think for a lot of women, that is like a default, right? We are people places. We have a lot of fear connected to how we might. be perceived or valued, we have a lot of guilt, right? Like mum guilt is an actual real thing. And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making. And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women

have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviours. that create wealth, that create disability, that create leadership opportunities. And men don't have quite the same kind of difficulties in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way. And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book

that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff. This is supposed to be like a wake-up call for ambitious women because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want a family and you want all of those things, you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition. We have to have audacity.

We have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be some discomfort that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you. And Jefferson, what is important right now and what I want to be clear about, and men can agree with this, as well as women. But I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business,

but in our economies, in our governments politically. It's really clear to me. And I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that women feel and they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right? Like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist. And so what I wanted to do was be, you know,

a model for what is possible because I really believe, like, you can't be what you don't see. And if we're constantly put in this kind of idea of like to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do, that's really going to hold women back. So what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order. to kind of shift the mentality, like really forward. Like, that's what I really care about right now.

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Smart hydration for people going places. And now back to the episode. Now let me tell you, Emma, you did it, okay? All that you wanted to do with this book, all right, you did it. What I really appreciate that you do in your book, and I have my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts and the new thoughts,

which I thought was great. It is so good. Not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, from what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything is really how you see things. And what you do, what I think is so well done,

is you will lay out these old thoughts. And we all know what that is, these old scripts in our head of, I'm not going to be enough, I have to do this. The only way to achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y. And then you come up with these new thoughts. and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kind of give the lesson.

And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head. You say, you don't have to do that, and you know what? I'm a living example of that. And so many of your lessons when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are excellent. Can I share with you one of my favorite?

Yeah, tell me. Yeah, okay. So this is one of the ones you have in career. And this is one that hit me is the old thought is your owed mentorship and opportunity. And so I thought like, okay, that's, boy, that's true in my life of times where, at least in the legal profession. You know, it's a sense of you're owed certain things. and that can feel that way. Like people go, oh, I'm not going to, I'm not going to chase this because nobody's doing

it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me and I'm not going to waste the time. And the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is you are the creator of your own career and the responsibility for it is yours too. And I thought, okay, Emma, all right, Emma, that was good. Like, it was so good of like, hey, you, nobody else is going to do. do that and I think a lot of that, and I want to go into this real quick, so is you are the oldest,

I believe, of four. Yeah. Okay. And you had a single mother. Okay. And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work is, was the, I'm the oldest of four, right? You are? Yeah, I'm a little older support. I love that. This is why we're kindred souls. This is it.

That's right. These old souls, right, that you didn't really have, like me, like we, we didn't really have it, you didn't really have a childhood. You know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the little parent, the little spouse. You had to take on opportunity. You had to take on things. You had to forego other enjoyment for the, for the, for the, you know, for the little, you.

or the work that was ahead. I find a lot of these principles that you teach are lessons that are straight out of your life and how you do things now. I think that you're completely right about that. And, you know, it's so interesting because so many people have asked me that question, oh my God, what was it like?

You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid. Like I never imagined like that this thing was put upon. me because where I come from like you just helped your mom like what are you going to do you know it's like yeah I could make you know a dinner for six people when I was 12 but that's been a really useful skill I could clean the house I could you know do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old you know I was raised in a way where there was no other choice and so there's a maturity level that comes with that there's a lot of you know less I guess I guess I less forgiving and less kind of great things that come out of that.

But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again was very young because I dropped out of high school, I had such a bar. Like I knew how to get things done. I was such a self-starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody else up and make pack lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah. I wouldn't even bother. But, you know, for me, it was not an imposition. It was like, I got a head start in life because this was my reality. And when I got into the workplace, I was like, wow, I am so

capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four and nobody, they have everything done for And somehow it kind of robs you from like, like who you're going to be, you know, and I'm like trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids that sometimes I think I should do. You know, like they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was there was no one, there was no one out there coming to get me. I took full responsibility for myself. And at the end of the day, this book is about self-leadership. It's about self-leadership. It's about self- self-responsibility and this really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization like there was no guy coming to rescue me there was no boss there was no mentor I learned from Oprah I learned from people in the magazines I learned from like the bosses at my work experience and when I say learned like I would just copy those people that's what I did like Oprah would say something good I would write it down and I would copy it

For years, I sat with my boss, like, behind me so she could see my screen. And that was the early days of online shopping. And everyone in the office was like, how annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman? Because you can't do your online shopping. And I was like, it's amazing. I write down everything this woman says. And when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls. And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me.

And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, could you mentor? on me and I do. I look up like so many of my staff and so many women, I do a call every day on the way to the office, eight o'clock, I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour, but you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head, you know, like I have this friend and I quote her in the book, Down Van Furstenberg, and she says, the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself.

I know I can talk myself into or out of anything. And so when it comes to like looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first. Because if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready. And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience. And so it's like I feel like I have gifted myself, myself, my whole life, right? It's like I was the best I had.

So it's like I just have to work with that. because there was nothing else. And I feel like that's not a bad place. There's not a bad thing. No, not a bad thing at all. No. When I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is making sense here.

Yeah, I think anybody who's the oldest child, you can't have that old sort of mentality of, you know, your parents didn't have to, I mean, they didn't have to ask me to do anything. You just did it. You just did it. It's very different from the youngest that we have. So yeah, I relate to that.

And what I find is so instructive to me and everyone is that if you think that opportunities should be just put on your plate, you're just, that's the wrong thinking. It's the wrong thinking. You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food. Like you have to go. And there's a sense of hunger, I think, that you have to have. There's a sense of hunger. Listen, you might need to go out and kill an animal. Like, I don't know where you got, like where you came from.

There might not be any shops open. There might not, you know, it's like you've got to do what you've got to do. But, you know, there's something amazing about doing, like making the best of yourself. You know, there's something incredible when you go, God, like, I came from here and now this is what life looks like like that's incredible but it just takes such a long time and i feel like you know again i speak about this so much in the book because i feel like social media has kind of conditioned us into this idea that you know you can listen your way to success that that somehow you can consume your way to success and i'm like no you can't you got to work you don't have any choice you know

you've got to like do something that you kind of don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity, to do something that you like a little bit more, and then eventually something that you really love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always been a little bit. And I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a moment where someone's gone like, here you go, lucky girl.

You know, here's something that you didn't work for. You've got to put the work in. It's just that simple. Ambition has to find you working. Before we keep going, I'm going to take a moment. moment to tell you about timeline. Now, when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep, and those things matter. They really do. But how you feel as you get older also depends on something deeper. That's right. We're talking about your cellular

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And that's what timeline does. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health and in human clinical studies. people's improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's all about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as, yeah, I get a little bit older and keeping my hair as much as I possibly can right now. Timelines clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Might appear starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com slash Jefferson. That's timeline.com slash Jefferson to learn more. And now back to the episode. Is there a thought that has recurred in your own mind of whether it said you don't deserve

this? It just right place, right time. You didn't do this on your own. You had all the help in the world. Like these, I'm curious of what kind of, what are the negative hardship thoughts that you, or if there are any? You know, what are the thoughts that you have to fight against? because they're always there. Yeah, you know, I'm obsessed with comedy, and I've watched like every Chris Rock special, like, back to front. I could recite them for you. But one that he always talks about is like at some point he gets like this house,

this that beautiful dream house. And he says his house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that like this would be his life, like that this is like his and he owns it. And I kind of like feel like that so much. I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week. And Cardi, like, to me, I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B. I was like, oh, that feeling of like never wanting to be poor again.

Like the first word she said to me, I was like, we are the same. Me and Cardi B, we're the same person. But that is something that I think for so long haunted me, this idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away. and I would be poor again. And not even like just poor, but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do.

And so that is something that I feel like it's always going to be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air and I'm like, that can't be my life. Like it just cannot. There's a little piece of that I don't want to get rid of. There's a piece of that that I am like kind of keeps me hungry. It keeps me like thinking like what's next, what's next?

Don't rest on your laurels. Don't get lazy. There's also a piece of that that goes, there's thousands of hundreds of thousands and millions of kids like me. And so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more because I know that I can pinpoint all the, moments of lift that happened. And it wasn't always because I was out maneuvering everyone,

like some stuff just like, you know, the stars aligned. But I guess that that, the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind. And it somewhat fuels me. I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow. But I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there. Like a scarcity type mindset. Like you, you, you, you You're always, you never know when it's going to stop. So you've got to keep going. Yeah. And there is a, listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisaged that

because I have something more that you're going to get less, right? And I think that is a very female thing. That's not how I think at all. I don't believe in that. But I do have that feeling for me. You know, when I met my husband, I said, Jim, I don't go back in lifestyle. Like, this is where we are now. I'm only going one way.

It's going forward. So you have to come with me. or that this is not going to work. And thankfully, he was up for that challenge, that romantic challenge that I gave in. But that is really important to me. Like, it's like I have been very purposeful about the life that I built.

And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I never, I will never feel like that. I know that in my own world, You know, I, we all do. And I know you talk about your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women can almost out-talk themselves out of an opportunity.

Is that something that you find often? Yeah, I mean, I see it around me often. You know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome. And it was literally down to my mom. My mom is like such a. a fierce lady, you know, she is like five foot nothing. She's like white and blonde and she has these like daughters that are like, you know, black with like big curly hair and my mum was fierce.

She was like, you are going to need to learn to look after yourself and you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life thinking exactly that. I was like, nobody's better than me. Like literally, you could go to Eaton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me. And I really imagined that. Like I was like, I took it in. And so in my head, I thought, if I work really hard and if I throw everything that I've got at it, I can be as successful as anybody else. But that was my starting point. You know, my mom gave me that. And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book, I got more

confident. I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business to fail, and for that not to be like, there's something wrong with me. I was like, that situation didn't work out. That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake, but I never internalized it and was like, I'm not right through it. So I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing and I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like, that was that, you know, And I want to impart that on as many women as I can because imposter syndrome is fake. It's not real. It's made up.

It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you. Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe listening or reading your book, might think are radical? Are there things that you live by that other people go, well, this is something. that is definitely against the grain of what we've been told. Yeah. Oh, God. Okay, this is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast.

This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson. Okay, I've got it. Okay, well, I think that work-life balance is a myth, and we all know that I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal, right? Like, I have seen in my life, and because I believe that life, and work and it all comes in seasons. There is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the medal

and to go for what it is that you won with no fucks given. Like no, like you're just going to go in. And there is a time when, you know, like right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that. You have to like lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists. And until you've found it, nothing's going to work out for your life.

That's BS. Like, you need, like, to have a great career and a great business, like, you need proximity. You need visibility. You can't, like, you don't get good over a Zoom call. Like, you need to be in the room. If you're not, like, around me, you're not going to see how I move. You're not going to understand, like, the pace of what we're trying to do, what the, like, company is all of. So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just got specifically for women.

Stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand like the timing of your life. I also think the timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about like this idea that, you know, women have been told just like wait and wait and wait to have a child. Like there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right? I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting in a. until you're 39 years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that, you know, it's like you've got to find this, that mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems. I'm like, find someone that you love and have a baby, like maybe slightly earlier than what

you've been told. It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like, it's just, it's okay. And I think that what happened is that, like, people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult. And that's why in this book I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boarding, not manifestation. Like, how is it that I want to live? What is important to me?

What are my principles and the stuff that I care about? Because then you can measure yourself up against that, as opposed to like some chick that you saw on social that, like, cut her kid sandwiches into stars. Like, that's not important. What's important is like, what's important to you? it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is like coming in and around me. I like to say, this is important

to me and these are my goals as a parent and these are my goals as a wife and these are my goals as a businesswoman. And I'm going to go after that without apology. Like, that's what I think is important. And tune out all the noise because you know what's insane? Like nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you. So you can pretty much just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time. They literally don't have time. Absolutely no notes.

I can tell you I have no notes off that, Emma. Start with yourself a new vision for work in life, Emma agreed. This is so, so good. I am honored to be able to support it. I want everybody to read it, and I'll be sending make sure that everybody in my community knows how important this book is. Emma, thank you so much for your time.

Oh, Jefferson, thank you. You're a diamond. This was so lovely. Please tell your family hi for me. And until the next podcast. And the same to yours from me. Take care, my love. Take care.

Thank you. Bye.