The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Stop Overthinking Important Decisions ft. Hunter Hayes

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

Every conversation starts with the one you're having with yourself. Hunter Hayes joins me to talk about how self-trust changes the way you communicate, why feeling stuck often starts with the stories you tell yourself, and how finding your own voice makes every relationship stronger. If you've ever struggled to speak up, trust your instincts, or communicate with confidence, this conversation is for you. Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Our Place. Visit https://fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The person who's trying to figure out right now, whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now, what would you say to that person? You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now. To take the opportunity. Yeah, take the opportunity. Hunter, what if I have. If you're going to play the game of what if, if you're going to list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that can go right. The practical takeaways that I love to talk about is you said, hey, I'm going to make some decisions for me right here, where I'm going to make some decisions for me right here, where I'm. than this committee thing, I'm gonna do something independent.

Rather than feeling like life is happening to me, I'm gonna make some course corrections here. And there had to be some point in your life where you say, I need others at my table. So I love the metaphor. And this is something I apply for me of filling the seats at my table. Everybody in life has a table.

And I start with empty chairs. And really, it could be your parents, your grandparents, whoever your guardians are, those are the people who are really the only ones at your table. And as you get older, you go to a different table and then you kind of have to fill them again in kind of your 20s and then you fill them again in your 30s. And I find who are the people,

because I'm very selective with who's mentally at my table. And I feel like you have found this full circle moment or clarity of who are the people, you want at your table. That's, well, going back to the chapter of going away. Yeah. That was that. And God in the universe kind of did it for me.

There were a lot of things that needed to happen. There were a lot of changes that needed to happen. Very scary. Like, I'm going to leave an entire institution behind. And, like, as an artist, there's so many pieces. I've heard a few of the people that I look up to describe it as like, you're the hub. And there's so many pieces that keep the wheel together. And at the time, I needed to let go of a lot of things,

and I wasn't ready to let go of any of those things. And so certain things just started kind of falling off naturally. Yeah, I remember. For you. Yeah, I remember having a conversation with my, I think my agent at the time. And I was like, you know, spending more time in California. And I was kind of having a hard time telling them, like, I think I'm going to go there and be there. Because what I was trying to say was, does that scare you?

And of course, it didn't. But he was like, dude, you need to. He's like, you should. He's like, I mean, it would be great to get some new energy. And he was excited about the idea. And I think that kind of like let me sit in a little bit more. And then everyone else, you know, I talked to another member of my team. I was like trying to like, you know, apologize for like this shift that I wanted to make.

And he was like, well, it's funny because I've noticed in life you tend to find what you're looking for. And he's like, you were clearly looking for new energy and change and all those things. So I say that to say yes. but also like touching back on something else. I mean, the like, yes, picking the people at your table, this was my chance. I think there was one big shift that happened. And I made one phone call to somebody in this room. And I was like, okay, here's what I'm doing.

I was like, I have played by everyone else's rules. Because I think another downfall, if I can touch back on that. Yeah, please. We can bullet point all these things so that people can follow along the way my brain works. But another downfall is. I was surrounded by people who have been doing this for longer than I have, and my tendency is to assume everyone knows more than me. And in a lot of ways, yes, absolutely for the rest of my life,

everyone will know more than me. I have so much to learn from everybody. And I am constantly learning how to hold the truth of, yeah, but so do I. And like the most important thing I think that I realized in like 2018-19 was, you know, I was having a hard time talking the label into a certain song or this, that, whatever. And it kind of started happening when I recorded Invisible and put a song called Invisible Out, because it was not like the big uptempo radio song. But it was something that I felt very called to. And luckily, like my team around me knew how important this was not only for people to understand me, but for me to create more of what I wanted.

So far as space for people to come and for me to play to and sing to. space for the audience that I want to sing with. The realization was I am fighting with people in a room who are all brilliant, but none of them have done any of the meet and greet that I've done. None of them have shaken the hands of the people that I've shaken hands with.

Yes. You know, hugged, talked to, heard what everyone had. Like our meeting and greets, like we're constantly trying to figure out how to make more time. Yeah. Because we have conversations in these lines. And people share their story because of the way that they connect with music.

And so I think that learning, that tipping point, I would say right around 2019, was a big one for me in learning to trust the gifts that I have or the experience that I have or the practice that I've put in, trust myself. Not in a I know everything, but in a, I have to create a threshold where I, know how to say, guys, you have to trust me on this. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like to be in a room with a bunch of brilliant people who have been in the business for 30 years, be the youngest guy in the room and say, guys, I totally hear everything that you're saying. I'm going to just try this. And if it fails, it's on me. Yeah. But like if everyone can just rally around. But you also have

to go into that room knowing that. You can't just like say it because you've got to bring the right energy, I feel like I've got to bring the right energy into the room. I have to know it before I walk in. And so that when I say it, everyone can feel what I'm feeling. Yeah. Whether I communicate well or not. Right. And they can feel the trust. They can all kind of put their shoulders back and go, you know what? Okay. Fine. I'll go on this. Where is the line for you of knowing do I say, you know what? Okay, guys. Yep. Everybody else knows better than me. versus no I'm going to put my flag in the ground and say no this is something I really believe in is it that trust yourself like what's the phrase that that Hunter Hayes tells himself in that moment

that's a great question um I think it's different based on each case yeah you know because like the first thing that comes up is we were trying to figure out how how to do a gig literally less than a week ago and I was like I don't I'm not feeling flow here like I really I would love to make this happen but I'm not feeling the flow yeah and I'm here and I'm here and I'm here everybody tells me, well, this is why you should do it. This is probably why we should consider it. And I was just like, I'm just, I'm not feeling it. And I got, I got, there was sort of two times where I was like, I hear it, I get it, and I'm just not feeling the flow. Yeah. You know? And the third time, a new detail kind of emerged. And I was like, there it is. There's the purpose.

Okay. I see the purpose now. And I'm, I'm just going to sit in the backseat. Because now, now this is there's something outside of what I know and I can I I see that and I'm going to trust everyone around me to help me pull this off. Is there a phrase that you kind of like even a word that kind of comes to mind where you think is it just a gut feeling? Well I'd love to say it's a gut feeling and in that cases I use that as an example because I'm so convinced you know the first two times we had this conversation I was like I'm I everyone is telling me why this should happen and I'm feeling like this maybe shouldn't. You need to feel like you can see it, right?

That sense of safety of like, well, you keep bringing the word flow. Yeah, that's a word. I love that word. Is that a word you've always used or a new word that you've integrated into yourself? Well, I'm learning what it means outside of the stage because when I'm on stage, I can tell you when I'm in flow. Yeah. There's something that has, because you have no choice. That's true.

There's no walking away, you know, whether it be 50 people watching or 50,000 people watching, everyone can feel it. Right. That's the ultimate test of, am I here? Yeah. Or am I here? Yeah. You know what I mean? Everyone can tell.

I can smile. I can say all the things. I know the difference between when an audience knows, an audience knows when an audience knows when I'm in it and an audience knows when I'm not. When you're not. And so it's the ultimate, like, exercise, and you're either checking in or you're checking out, you know? So that is where I go back to with flow state. When the band and I, even if it's something that's like really super well arranged, I can tell when we're all just in it.

You know, and I can tell when we're all kind of figuring it out, you know. Yeah. And so I think that's my guide. That's a good one. You know what I mean? Because it feels like it's very, it's not improv per se because there's a lot of structure in what we do. Yeah. But there's something to the like, I feel like I'm being carried.

Yeah. versus I feel like I'm carrying. Maybe that's it. Yeah. Those moments of life where you feel like it's bringing you and fighting you into it versus you having to drag it. Yeah. You know, I think that's a great way to like picture that.

For me, I was at a meeting once and a friend of mine, his name is Diego, the way he described this kind of flow state and it was when he knows that there's creativity in the body is how he described it. What a beautiful one. And I was like, that's the best way I've heard it describe. And it doesn't matter if you are an artist. Because I think we're all artists in some ways. Agree.

And or you're at the office or you're in a cubicle or you're a stay-at-home parent or whatever. There's always this flow state of knowing when you feel like, I think I'm good. Like I feel like right now I like this energy that I'm feeling and yes, life is good. And that doesn't mean it's going to happen. but understanding it's always going to, there's a down and up, but that's why I really love the word flow. Have you, how long has it been? And again, anytime you're like, I'd rather not, Jefferson,

you just tell me, which I'm sure you will, that you have, because you seem to be somebody who is very self-aware. Have you always? Yeah. Yeah. So whatever work you're doing. Yeah, whatever work you're doing is working. How many years has it been of, we're going to say, this kind of self-work, which believe me, I'm in it every day too.

I saw my first therapist, which I don't know if it's considered a, like looking back, I have a lot of questions. Because it was set up, it was someone who worked at, it was giving credit, there was a company that I worked with that handled finances. And for somebody like me, that's a very scary, still a very scary, like, topic. Sure. Because when something doesn't go well, it's on your shoulders to figure out, like, you know, it's your name. For sure. And so, and I have a lot of stuff around that. That's a different conversation.

But there was somebody that they had in-house to sort of help, I think, help artists slash help the people working on it, slash help both sometimes. but that person was actually like present in a lot of my meetings with them but also I had time to work with him separately and so it started with just like how do I calm down on the road because I was so high strong still am but like you can imagine being 18 19 and like all of your dreams are sitting right in front of you and you're walking into one opportunity after another that's just like you're flowing right but at the time there was a lot of fear around well, how many ways can I screw this up?

Yeah. You know? So that was my first person that I worked with, and then I worked with a therapist separately. And we started to understand different things. I started to understand a little bit more of the OCD tendencies, which that was a whole thing. And then, you know, like she was the first person that said,

okay, what if it all goes away tomorrow? Yeah. Because that was the thing I was so afraid of, you know? And like, okay, what if the thing you're most afraid of happens. Yeah, and she kind of did that work with me and I was like, because, you know, her sentence was like, you've done it before. Can't you do it again? You know? And I think that kind of like opened a new box. It's been 50, I say all that to say that it's been 15 years of just like this experience and this experience and like slowly starting to sort of unwrap everything.

Really, honestly, probably getting into the like the serious work around. around 2018 and 19. I remember like one of the most profound days of my life was the year. We had the solar eclipse passed through Nashville. Oh, yeah. And we did like a, there was a, yeah. You can't just stop it there. Well, it was like a whole experience of,

it was my first time getting to really dive into some work and some scary questions that I had myself. Yeah. And so I think that was, I say that to say that the work that happened that day really started the flow for me working with good questions bad questions both depends on what time is they ask you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah it was all a lot of it was around and I've talked about this a little bit but a lot of it was around like what happens if I'm not like hunter the artist right do I lose all my friends yeah because I work with

all of them yeah you know what I mean that was when a lot of that kind of came to the service that's a huge, that's a huge question. And I think a lot of people battle it. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about tiny health. We know what it's like when something just doesn't feel right. You just feel off. If you're getting plenty of sleep, you're eating all the right stuff, but something is just not right where you want it to be. And typically, that means something else is going on deeper within you. And one thing that you always need to make sure and check is your gut, because if your guts off, then everything. is off. Tiny health fixes all of that. One reason why our family likes it is because you're able to

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slash Jefferson and get up to $50 off your first order. That's tinyhealth.com slash Jefferson. And now let's keep going. There is what they say in like therapy circles is, you know, we all come in thinking we're terminally unique, right? Nobody can relate to anything that's happening. This is my own special one, I'm a one case wonder right here. And then you really get to learn, hold up, it's all just the same fear in different flavors,

you know, of what am I if I'm not this? Who am I if I'm not this? will they still stick around? Will they leave? If they know the worst things about me, will they turn around and run? And I think that is a deeply rooted fear in a lot of people, myself included, of what happens.

And what artists like yourself get to do is you turn conversations into songs, right? And what you said at the very beginning of this, which I thought was beautiful, is how do I create a song and then make sure that you can find yourself in it? Like see yourself, make enough room for you. Where my mind goes, well, that's conversations. How do I make sure that I have a conversation that I can say,

I want you to see yourself in this conversation with me, where we're going to have this moment and create something that we can really walk away with. In every conversation, in my short time with you, I'm going to walk away with something. And I think if everybody takes that moment to ask themselves, What am I walking away from or what am I letting go off? Maybe I'm not walking away with anything. Maybe I'm leaving something where it needs to be in a conversation. I think that helps round people out so much better.

So having that, here you say, you know what, I had to ask some of these big questions. Who am I if I'm not? The Hunter Haysa here on the radio has to be a question where you've got to go to some pretty deep places. It sounds like you've come from. a lot of that. Hmm. I do wanna ask some questions for us to kind of think of another person

in the conversation. And this is a chance that I would love if we take some of the things that you've learned over the last two years and say how can we give that person advice? And with all self, you know, deprecating a, side. Because we know we don't know. We know. We all have probably some level of OCD or ADHD or something. I got moan things. The person who's trying to figure out right now

whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now. What would you say to that person? You kind of always need to, you always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now. To take the opportunity. Yeah. Take the opportunity. Yeah. And for the person who's saying the same thing of that fear of, well, yeah, but what if?

Hunter, what if I have. If you're going to play the game of what if and you, then you have to play for both sides of the team. You have to, if you're going to list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things and go right. Give the cons the same weight as the pros. Yeah. For everything that you say that scares the shit.

Can I say this? Sure. scares the shit out of you. Yeah. Also, name the things that you would be absolutely blown away if just everything went right. Right. You know, what if, what if I lose my job? What if that's what, what if that freedom is what allows me to accept an opportunity that I otherwise wouldn't have taken?

What if not having a job means that I don't have to, like, that I'm just open to way more than I, than I am right now. Right. Tomorrow, 24 hours from now. My entire brain shifts. What if I lose all my friends? What if I don't have any friends? Yeah, yeah. Great, you have more space.

You have more space and you will connect with someone so much easier because you have the space for them to take up. Right. You know what I mean? No, I do. I think, I forgot where I heard it. I was saying this to a friend the other day. I saw some interview, I couldn't tell you who,

where as humans we are horrible projectors of future things. of like how we're going to feel about it. So if you, you're, and it works for positive and negative. So it's like that fear of what if I get fired and you do get fired, you realize, oh, it's not that bad. Like life's still happening.

That big fear I had in life, oh, I'm actually, I'm actually okay. Or if you really want that promotion and you finally get that promotion, you're like, oh, this is it? Like I thought this was going to be pretty awesome, but it wasn't. So I,

I think what you're saying is make sure that if you're going to go the what if everything's wrong, you have to pair it with the, but what if everything's right? You owe it to yourself. Yeah. You owe it to yourself to, yeah. That's one of my theories. Something I've put into practice a lot lately. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about our place.

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our place. Go to from our place.com slash jefferson and use coach Jefferson for 10% off site-wide. Plus, you get a 100-day risk-free trial with free shipping and returns. That sounds like, check check from our place dot com slash jefferson and use coach epherson and now let's keep going i know we talked about it but i do i want to put it in a different show like a different package how did you know like what was the gut instinct you felt that said hey i need to interrupt this cycle and just give us some space for a bit it was just one too many things where i felt like i was climbing up the hill. Well, there was so much flow in the creative.

There was so much like I was in my, you know, at the time I had a house with a basement and I was working in my basement a lot with no sunlight, with all the things that nature gives you, I was working against the grain. I was in a dark room in the basement of my house and I was more creative than I'd ever been. I was feeling a lot and I was putting it in to the work. I was making songs. There was no rules. Nothing had to be anything.

I was working in secret. Yeah. You know, on an album that no one had to hear. And that was another thing like Wild Blue was an album to, And I made, and it was my rebellious way of being brave by myself. And I was like, if I love this when it's done, it'll see the light of day. It'll happen if it's supposed to happen. And I was turning in a lot of songs.

I mean, hundreds of songs a year. I was experiencing a lot of feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood. I think looking back, I think I might have had a lot of opportunities to say, trust me, but I didn't know how to do that yet. Is it trust me, me? Me. Yeah. Yeah. I trust myself.

I believe in this. Yeah. And I don't think I knew how to do that. I think this was, I think it was exactly what it was supposed to be and that it was a time that was designed to teach me that. Right. And I learned it very slowly. But I just noticed and I felt a lot of resistance. where I yeah that's the best way I can say it I had a beautiful opportunity to say guys I get it I get it everybody's afraid there's a lot happening I know that this probably doesn't sink in just yet let's just try it and like by the grace of God there's something beautiful that happened during that time is I turned in dear God yeah dear God's a song that breaks all the rules that is I talk about that song I'll

lot and I've said it a lot but I still want to hear it it was everything I wasn't supposed to write about it was all the like the kind of production that I didn't feel like was ever going to work it's still a top 25 like it was a top it's one of my top streaming songs yeah that's crazy it was everything I wasn't supposed to do and my and our person at the label was like oh my God and I was like what and he was like no dude he was like this this mean I don't know what we do with this but this means something and it started circling around the label and the label was like everyone was talking to me about this song and I was like you're not supposed to hear that right you know what I mean like

um and it was it was it definitely felt like God just kind of ripping it out of my hands and going this is taking you too long we're just going to do this yeah um and we you know we didn't follow traditional promotion playbook it did break all the rules and it broke all the rules man it's like still one of my top streaming songs from that album for all of all of my discography wow of the songs that went to let's say like the number ones that I've had or the you know the songs that in placement, whatever. Like, this song holds its own in that, in those numbers. And I only reference the numbers just because, like, it shows that it broke its own rules.

And still to this day, like, people come to meet and greet with tattoos from lyrics of the song or, like, ask me to sing it. Like, so many times, we'll play a show, and I'll kind of feel the room, and I'll be like, I don't think we should do dear God tonight. And we do, dear God. And I watch, like, the two people that. I've been feeling like they're not connecting with what I'm doing at all. Yeah.

I'll watch two people just totally drop in. And I'm like, I am wrong about everything. I love it. So I don't know if that answers your question. Oh, yeah. The one person who looks like, I'm kind of bored, just immediately starts bawling. They look really bored. And I'm like, man, what do I need to do to like connect with them?

Yeah. In a nutshell, tell anybody listening, tell them briefly what dear God is about. I love that song. I sat down with, I'm a big fan of Andy Grammer. We sat down for his podcast. the good parts. There's a lot of conversation about faith and religion. And we sort of unpacked a lot of things that I was trying to figure out at the time. And I had it just so happened, had a title. The deal was, Andy was coming, it was late at night.

He was coming in and do the podcast. And I was like, if you're down to stay for like an hour, I'd love to write. And he was like, deal, I'm in. Because we've been talking about it for years. We do the podcast, which is beautiful because in every writing room, I feel like we talk for 45 minutes. about the topic and then the song finds its way into the room once we've opened our doors yeah you know say that again for me more time every room that I get into with co-writers I always bring ideas in sometimes they land sometimes we can all we all know what we're talking about yeah sometimes I haven't communicated it or I'm not clear it or or everybody else might be on a different page sometimes the title will change the idea will totally shift but the I would call it 30 to 45 minutes of

conversation that happened for all of us to sort of like land. Yeah. You know, we pull the parachutes and we start floating down to the earth. And then when we land around it, the song is all, it's just there. And it happens quickly. It happens within 30 minutes to 90 minutes max. That's right. So the beautiful part about this song, Dear God, is the 45 minutes of conversation is in

the world. Like you can go listen to the whole thing. It's on a podcast, right? So we had this conversation. I had this idea that I wanted to write with Andy. because of the music that he makes and his messages and the way that he represents so many thoughts and feelings. And it was called Dear God. And I was like, I kind of need to write an angry prayer.

Because on every album, I've had a song about faith. And on this album, I'm wrestling with a lot of things. And so I want to honor that and do that. And at the end of the song, at the end of the album, there's another prayer. But he just started pacing around the room and just singing like, you know, I was noodling with all these like burst things, you know. it's three in the morning just me and my demons at war again so I'm calling in or you listening you know and Andy starts pacing the room

and he just starts singing why does my life have to hurt so much you know and we just start going with all these questions and it's just a song about questions and the end of the chorus is dear God are you sure that you don't mess up meaning me right? And at the end of the song we circle around to like I know you've tried to

teach me this and I'm sorry but I'm just having a hard time teaching learning this right now and the end just finishes with you know dear God just remind me you don't mess up At the end of the day, asking these questions, knowing that there is an answer and hoping for that reminder. So, yeah, that song just like totally changed the rules in so many ways. And like, yeah, that's awesome. I'm trying to figure out how to put a period on this sentence, but it was a lot of things that I really was afraid for people to hear.

And the more people heard it, the more people were like, that needs to be the lead single. And I was like, what? Yeah. Yeah. By all the rule books that you've given me, this doesn't work. And it works. And that is one way that has helped you kind of break out of knowing what version of myself can I be. And that is you've taken these what ifs and you're proving to yourself that what I am afraid of turns out to be even better than I ever could have imagined.

Consistently. Yeah. I wouldn't say 100% of the time. Sure. And also the things that I'm most afraid of after they happen. I end up in a place that's still better. Yeah. There's more learning.

There's more growing. Yeah. Either way it's good kind of mentality. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. And I like Cozy Earth so much that I'm going to make this entire spot about their house shoes. I ordered some of their house shoes probably about two months ago. And maybe some of you listening remember when I said I was going to order these house shoes. update for you, they're fantastic.

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That's Cozyearth.com slash Jefferson. Use the code for 20% off. And now let's keep going. So we've talked about, you know, the version of your, How do you know when you should outgrow something? We talked about people kind of being around your table. Are there things that you think because, because you've said this with me, and I know you've talked about it,

of as somebody who has ADHD, like, do you find that that affects your ability to like, there are people out there who I know, and I'm related to many, of have ADHD and they go, but yeah, I have ADHD and they go, And they go, but yeah, I have a really hard time with either conversation or, but I've never met anybody who songwrites as an artist. And do you find that that's help or a hindrance or how have you found a way to? I'd be willing to bet you have. I'm sure I have.

I have the wild part. You know what I mean? Like, so I learned a lot about my brain this year. I'm in the process of learning more and the way that it works. And I think it was, it gave me permission to. to start seeing ways that I frustrate myself as, I relate a lot of things to general aviation because I wanna get my pilot's license

and there's a lot of lessons in that. And you know, some planes are capable of reaching a certain, let's say like a certain speed. Yeah. But they really operate just somewhere else. Right. So your expectation could be, well, I'll get from this point to this point in this time.

And it's like, well, there's also wind. Yeah. Even if you're doing everything right. It's also something called weather. Yeah. There's so much out of your control and you're just part of it. Yeah. Like you've got a machine and if you know how to operate it.

Great. You know, awesome. And every time you go up, you are working with the wind. And I think that like understanding a little bit more and again, very much in the middle of the process of understanding more about how my brain works, I've gone from being frustrated with certain ways that it works to, I wouldn't say loving all of it, but like certainly trying to honor it and recognize, okay, I'm not crazy. It really, it doesn't work that way. So what do I have to do? What do I have to change? What systems do I have to put in place? Yeah. What things do I have to just kind of honor long enough for me to go, no, I like the way that this works now. And I think some of the shifts that I've made this year, it's changes that I've made this year, have allowed me to, experience more flow so that I can trust myself and saying, I totally hear you.

I know that that's the expectation that is on me right now. I can't, I won't be able to do that well. But if you trust me, let me guide you through it. And I say this very much as an artist, and I know that that's a very privileged place, and I do not take that for granted because I know that a lot of people are in a position where they're asked for something and they have to deliver. I think, and I'm trying to sort of connect the dots, but, you know, for me, one of the things that I put in place was just like, I totally hear you. I would love to do that. I can't do it that way. If this is a result you want, let me do this. Yeah. And make sure I give you what I know I want to give you, the best version of what I want to give you. And I'm trying to think of like a realistic. Is that one of the shifts you've made of being able to say, I hear that? Yeah. And what I hear you saying is what often always. tell people who are disagreeing in conversation, meaning the goal is the same. We both want the best

product. You have your perspective, I have mine. Yeah. And sometimes it's, I get there another way. Right. I'm getting in the same place you are. I hear you. I just happen to get there a different way. Yeah. And naturally, that creates that curiosity of, okay, what are you saying? Now, ultimately, there might be a position where one of you has a say of, I'm the final voice on what's happening. But when you're able to at least share perspectives, it seems to unlock things a little bit better. Has that been the case for you? Yeah, well, and to be fair, I've used some of your language in some of these conversations. But I think the most applicable part of this that I can share is the trusting of myself, I can say,

Yes. I know that we both want this. I can't do it this way. I'm not going to be able to give you good results this way, but let me try it this way. And let's just see what happens. Because I think often sometimes, too, the thing that I'm learning is like, you know, the person that I'm working with are talking to about this negotiating, let's say. And for me, it's often just about schedules and how I work because I wear so many hats. It's just like, yeah, you can do this, but, you know, but tomorrow, it's like, I could. And, it would just mean that I have to stop doing all these other things that I feel like are potentially more important. And often are. And often are. And so sometimes it's just like I have to trust that not only am I doing what I know will allow me to succeed and accomplish the goal, but I also know that when I do, they'll see it as well.

And maybe they won't. But the hope is they'll see like, oh, okay, the process works better. Okay, trust it. Yeah. And maybe they won't. but I will be happier with the thing that I gave. Does that make sense? Yeah, no.

The whole thing, yeah, I follow you. I follow you. When you are writing music and you're putting out things that you can tell, I mean, Evergreen album is a perfect example of this. I think often you're singing it to yourself, but you're leaving room for the other person to see themselves in it as well. I mean, I can't imagine having a song out and, you know, somebody's tatted with some of the lyrics that you have.

Like, it's just got to be the most unreal thing. That's, that's the, my new metric of success. Right. Yeah. How do you, how do you process the amount of exposure you've had very early on? Like, the question that comes to my mind is, do you think if you had so much exposure as a, as a child, as a teen, how that would have influenced you as an artist now. That's something you can even imagine of like, you know, have I, had the spotlight not been on me at such young age or this

pressure responsibility at such young age, it probably would have had this kind of positive effect or do you think it actually would have taken away from who you are now? I find questions of that nature to be very challenging to answer because I don't answer if you want to. Well, I just like I don't like yeah sure I can I can tell you all the things that have come up in therapy because I started performing at five and I would not have operated the way that I did with the drive that I had at 19 yeah had I not brought those things with me you know but you seem to be the type two that like even if you didn't make another dime do music there's no stopping you making music like you you would just continue to do it because that's it's such an

integral part of you, because I can only imagine when you're listening to songs and you're driving, even driving here, you're constantly thinking of ideas and ways. There are some people who hear words in color, right? And there's some people who hear music in color, and the just brain goes about it a different way. Yeah. I actually watched the whole thing on that. Did you? Yeah, absolutely. Tell me. Well, I like, we were mixing a song at Evergreen, actually. I think it was a, I think it was weight. I was having a hard time communicating. I was like, maybe this will make sense. And I drew out, what is it, synesthesia?

I did some research on that. And then I wrote, is that, am I saying that right? I think so. Yeah, sounds or colors. Yeah. I actually made a really dumb looking drawing. There was a circle. And it was like all of the instruments that were in the song had their own shape and color and place to tell them like where I wanted it in the mix, up or down.

Stereo field left it right and then the color corresponded with part of the frequency spectrum that I wanted it to sit in. I absolutely think that way. The reason that I had such a hard time answering a question of Indigo is because I made my commitment to music before it was a commitment. Before it was a job, before it was a, what are you doing for the rest of your life? Before it was at what next? I was in love with making music when I was 5, 6, 7. And thus, you know, I found the studio world when I was like 11, 12, and all of a sudden,

oh my God, there's a safe little greenhouse for me to make music in. Yeah, you mean I can do this? There's a place where I can grow. Right. And at my own pace, I can follow whatever pulls me along. I can write about anything and figure it out, learn how to write on my own.

And then that gave me more confidence to put shows together, you know. to arrange parts for a band to figure out what the flow of the show needs to be. And so because I fell in love with it before it was a job or before it was a decision, I've never had to make the decision. I make music. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. So that's why it's so challenging to go, like, if you hadn't found it so early, what was you?

Because I don't know that I would have had the confidence to say this is what I'm doing for living. There's a lot of reasons to say, like, this could also not work. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've never believed that. I mean, one of my first, you know, team members was just like, I think that, you know, he, and plenty of people say versions of this, but, like, it was very much one of the reasons I believe you're going to be a success is because you have no backup plan. Oh, yeah.

It's so true, you know. And it's, but it just means that, like, to me, like I said, to sum it up, I fell in love with it before I had to figure out what to do with it. Does that make sense? It does. What do you think the result would have been had you not interrupted what you had to two years ago to kind of take a pause and say, you know, hold up, let me look at this differently. You went over to California, took a healthy break. I know you didn't stop working, but you needed to, you needed some distance from something. A break from the patterns.

Exactly. Had you not taken a break from your patterns, the patterns that may have no longer been serving you in that way, what do you think the result would have been had you not? One side of me says I would have taken a break at some point. It was inevitable. I would have hit a breaking point. Yeah, you would have hit a wall. If I hadn't created the space, the space would have created itself. Okay. You know, whether that be through some version of, you know, what do they call it, self-suffer. sabotage or a mental B, yeah, or just like, or just not showing up, you know, getting opportunities and not being able to show up well. It would have been on, it would have been not on your terms. It would have been on somebody else's terms. Yeah, not on my terms. Yeah. Um, which was never going to

happen. Yeah. Um, so or, or I, I would have, I would have, um, another version of it could have been, I just like let go and gave up on a lot of things that I currently, luckily, thankfully, still believe in, I would have, you know, created a version of the future where I was safer feeling what I was feeling. And that would have probably required disconnecting from a lot of the things that I really still care about and love doing. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Well, sometimes that's okay to just say, I don't know, because, I mean, you're here now. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you find that right now you're, that you're content and that you're living that version that you wanted to live a few years ago? In so many ways,

I'm living that version. And in so many ways, I have so many things that I want to grow on. Yeah. There's so many things I want to improve upon. There's so many things that I, I, I want to just, like, dance with a little bit, figure out how to improve. How do you track those, like, Practically. I have no idea. Do you write, are you a big journaler? Do you write stuff out? Yes, and. You're very good at the yes ands, by the way. I do like that. Well, I like, I journal a lot. It's chaotic. That's good. It's supposed to be. Well, a lot of the times I just doodle. Like, I just draw it out. Well, I need structure. Okay. You know? So when I judge my journaling, it's like, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not consistent. And it's like, well, no, you're not. And it's like, well, no, you're not. And that's okay. You know? I could tell you when the first time I started journaling, I would rip out pages because I didn't like my handwriting. Like, that's how bad. I get mad at like, I just, I screwed up this word. And now it looks really gross. And now we have to either write through it or scratch it out. And then it would bother me really bad.

That makes, wow. Yeah. So you're not alone. A clicks in a lot of ways. Totally different, but clicks. I journal, but I also kind of think that a lot of my like expression or like my version of journaling is working on music. That's true. In production, for instance, you know, I think sometimes the image of recording a song as we come into a place like this, we record and, you know, and it happens in a couple of, you know, takes. But for me, I sit with a song for hours, hundreds of hours, trying to learn what it's trying to tell me. So there's a part of it that is kind of accidentally therapeutic in that so much of what I love about production is I'll record a part on an acoustic guitar. And I'll just sit with that.

It'll bother me because it feels too aggressive. It feels too angry. It doesn't feel soft. Or like a great example is there's a song on, well, there's around the sun on Evergreen. Yeah, the last one. That was technically the first song that I finished for the album. And it takes a trip. The riff is played very...

The first version of the riff that you hear is actually heavily manipulated from the day that I wrote the song to show... Sometimes an idea doesn't feel the way that it's supposed to right away. And then as you go through the song, it's like the band starts to learn the riff

and it's played more confidently and all of a sudden it's on a 12-string guitar and it's like, oh, it's the way it's supposed to be heard. And then an electric guitar kicks everybody out and it starts to plays the solo. And for me, that's... communication, that's me communicating, like, this is my process of learning this lesson. I wrote the song, I learned the song, and now I'm learning what the song wants me to know moving forward.

And then towards the end, you know, there's like four different kick samples that come in. There's a real drummer playing, but there's also like a lot of just energy and I wanted it to feel like a dance song by the end of it. It's kind of subtle. That's the goal. And even the bass part is not just like a bass part. It's like it's its own riff because I wanted the song to grow in its own confidence as it goes. There we go. Right. So that was therapy for me.

That was four days. Another thing I really am a big fan of is neural feedback. I don't know how else to refer to it, but I've done a lot of that. And that's actually allowed me to put a lot of the lessons that I've learned from coaching or therapy. Tell me what that is for people. Neural feedback. Neural feedback. It sends, I'm going to destroy my explanation.

It's okay. We're just going to admit that it's going to butcher it. Yeah. But essentially as patterns get formed in the brain, it's a way, it's a, it's a technology that's, that is approved to clear out, kind of like stuck sand, kind of blast through and allow the brain to create its own new neural pathways. Just a sandblast your brain. Yeah, sandblast, the parts that you get stuck in.

Yeah. So, like, a lot of people find it, like, life-changing, everything from, you know, addiction to PTSD to, I mean, all kinds. The stories are in, it's incredible. It's helped me tremendously. It's one of the, like, the things that if I'm taking a break from every modality, that's still the one thing that I'm pretty confident will help me move forward. So I had done a general feedback session in the middle of writing that song. And then all of a sudden it just started to make sense. And I started to spend more time with it.

So I saw all that to say, I think parts of, parts of the way that I journal are musically. Right. Like when I record an idea, I'm also translating how it feels to feel those lyrics. That's why I said at the very like start. Like you write in a journalistic way. Like very much so that it's like you could have written all that out simply in your journal without any music to it because I think it resonates. that way. Do you find that when you say, I'm listening for what the song wants to tell me? Yeah. Do you think that's true for conversations, too? That like often after conversations

happen, you kind of have to go, okay, what was that conversation telling me between these two humans? Aside from the part that I played in it, aside from the fact that I played a part in it, Now if I separate it out from myself, what was that, what is that conversation trying to tell me? You find that to be true? So true. One of my goals this year was to sit down with mentors more often. Yeah. Because I have the bad habit of saying, oh, well, they have more important things to do, you know?

And I've been challenging myself with, like, reaching out to people and going like, hey, I want breakfast. I want to sit with you. Yeah. And one of the first ones that I did was beautiful because I was like in my car, trying to prepave and, you know, virgo myself into a conversation where I was like, this is, what is my goal? What do I want from this? And I just heard God just yell just like, you need to chill out. Yeah. You need to just listen. You talk to God a lot? Yeah. It's very non, I say it's unconventional. It's quite conversational. I think you'd like that. Yeah, yeah.

Because I, like, I'm strongest in my faith right now than I've ever been, like religion's a different conversation. I talked to a lot in sort of random moments. And I feel like I get spoken to a lot. Yes. And in like learning how to write music, I think I think that's so much of that is tapping into what's happening outside of here. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, it does because that makes me get really excited. It makes me think of just the whole idea of not just what is this conversation trying to tell me, God, what are you trying to tell me? Like, what is exactly when you're talking about flow state? Like, how do I know that I'm in the flow of all things around me? Yeah. How am I, how do I know I'm connected in all things? So I think we kind of answered it

right there of, yeah, conversation can absolutely be that way because it's, you know when you're in the flow of conversation when you're not, when the conversation's going well and when it's not. For sure. And like, I'm still learning how to be conversational. Because like so much of my life is songwriting, right? There's a goal. Yeah. We rally around the goal. And we get to, we finish the lyrics on the page in the most succinct way we can from the experiences that we have. But there is a goal. We're all doing that thing. Yeah. Yeah. We agree on it, right? Like I said earlier, like there's some rooms where the goal that I had is not what's going to. happen and that's fine but we we end up with a thing that we're going for and I'm I'm very much learning how conversations are just follow where it's going you know follow the flow and um my therapist

talks a lot about um white water rafting uh guides and just like the course of learning how to just go study the river and understand the river and like keep everybody safe in the boat but you're at you're you're you're going with the river yeah exactly you're going yeah um and he sent me a whole like a whole like lesson book on that before we started the tour um because being on tour is very much you're in the you're in the whitewater like you're halfway through right now i think right but we just wrapped the first sort of section of it right and uh now we're kind of building out what the rest of it looks like that's that's pretty cool man yeah that that's awesome i um so i grew up playing drums my whole life

And so usually when I'm listening to a novel, yeah, oh yeah. And so usually when I'm listening, I play guitar. I don't play the 30 plus like you. They have no way. Which, well, no, that almost sounds like an unhealthy level. Like, I don't know if I could do that. I'm like, you got it, man. That's crazy.

Yeah. Though I think, like, the Daubro would be pretty sick. Slack? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that would be pretty awesome. I think that's just because I've listened to a lot of Eun Station with Allison

Krauss. Like that would have been that have been it. But I played drums all growing up. And so whenever I listen to a lot of the stuff, of course, like anybody who plays an instrument, you listen for your favorite instrument. And I have to say, I like the drums on the very first that your self-titled album. And then I realized that you also play the drums. That was before afterwards.

So I have to say from one drummer to another, that was pretty rad, dude. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. That was awesome. Thanks for coming on the podcast, when I really appreciate. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Steve. On July 16th, the Hawk lands on Netflix.

From the mind of Will Ferrell. Oh, Mama, I'm back. Come in a new original series. Get ready, get ready. That's it. Did I stutter? When an iconic pro golfer. Lonnie?

Hockey! Takes one last swing at greatness. You were a big shot golfer. I still am a big shot golfer. No one. Dad, I'm the Hawk now. Will stand in his way. That's how it's done.

The Hawk. on Netflix, July 16th.