The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - The Fear That’s Secretly Hurting Your Relationship with Dr. John Delony

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

I flew to Nashville, sat in Dr. John Delony’s studio, and we had the kind of friend-to-friend talk I wish everyone could hear. We got honest about anxiety—how I’ve felt it in my own body—and why our “imaginary fights” leave us overheated before a real conversation even starts. John shared the two moves that changed my playbook: bring calm (it spreads) and tell the truth (facts are kind). We dug into abandonment fears, childhood stuff that sneaks into marriage, and that gut-punch line: “You marry your unfinished business.” If you’ve ever felt anxious mid-conversation, or avoided a hard talk because you were scared of losing someone, this episode gives you practical steps to reset, reconnect, and talk like you actually want to be heard. Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Pique. Head to https://PiqueLife.com/jefferson for 20% off. Momentous. Visit https://www.livemomentous.com/ and use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first order. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation, the one that changes everything. If you feel like this looks a little bit different, because it is a little bit different. My family's up here around Nashville, checking out the area saying hi to some friends. And while I was up here, I contacted one of my very best friends and said, hey, why don't I just come and talk to you in your own studio? It is the one, the only, Dr. John Deloney. What's going on? Have you ever been on this side of the chair? I've never been on the side of the chair.

This is fantastic. Yeah, this is awesome. So we're recording in the Dr. John Deloney show studio, which is way cooler than mine. I got to say, I really, really like it. Your team's incredible. So it's been great to sit here and be with everybody. In case you're not familiar with Dr. John Deloney, not only is he a very good friend. He is somebody with two, not just one PhDs, two PhDs.

He is a best-selling author. He is a mental health expert. It's kind of a stretch. Well, I'd say expertise in crisis response and all things related to. the navigating anxiety. How'd I do there? Yeah, man. Awesome.

Yeah. You riddle that off better than I do. Yeah. Well, man, thank you so much for just sitting down with me for a little bit and having a conversation. So biggest thing that you know in my podcast and my whole area is communication. So one of the things I'm most curious about, or what are some of the things that we do in communication that make our anxiety worse or better? Who?

Good question. probably we don't communicate at all we hold it and then we imagine a thing happens I get inside your head and decide why you did what you just did

or why you didn't do what you should have done what I think you should have done and I have an imaginary interaction with you and then I have a physiological response to that fight or that discussion we just had that we didn't have right and so

as I've traveled across the country I hear this the most that people have that imaginary conversation in the shower it's the only time there's no phone there's no nothing and they're in there and the hot water's shooting down their back and they think to themselves I mean Jefferson didn't even call

he's like I do never a call and then I'm off to the races and so I had this imaginary communication that I never have and then you're just out there having coffee and I walk out and I am halfway through a fight that we did not even know we were in. Yeah.

You were like, hey, man. And I'm like, don't, hey, me. And it's off to the race. Right. I definitely, I have those conversations in the car. Mine are in the car. If it's quiet in the car, you kind of just have that argument out in your head and you're like, oh, and all of a sudden you kind of get worked out about how you're going to respond.

That's the thing I didn't know is your body doesn't know the difference, whether we're having a real fight or an imaginary one. It just starts to respond. And so you get to work and you're fired up. And then maybe your wife will text you and be like, have a great day. And you're like, oh, have a great, right? You're already off to the, off to it. Yeah. Do you find that when people are having anxiety, like in that moment, when they're coming to you and like, I just feel, I mean, your book building a non-anxious life, you wrote all about this. It's a wonderful book for anybody who has not listened to that I grabbed it. You need to get it. When I first had my, I've shared, when I first had my panic attack, you were one of the first people that I reached out to of like, what is this? What is this feeling? I don't know what's going on.

of that in communication especially what I have found that builds a lot of anxiety is when we not only like you said have these assumptions of we're doing the thinking for them we're already assuming but also it's the fear of the unknown of I don't know what's going to happen I'm doing everything wrong what do you find in your expertise and the people that've come to you that when they're in that state of anxiety what's the number one thing that's on their mind. Like, what did they need fixed? Hmm.

So I think, I'll answer it this way. I don't think outside of a bell curve, right? There's way over here and way over here. But I think most people assume that if I'm anxious, there's something wrong with me. And I don't operate that way. I think usually your body's right. To answer that question at the deepest level,

whenever we do a marriage retreat, one of the things I always do, halfway through the thing is to have everybody, look directly at their spouse and say the words. I say, only say this if you mean it. I will never leave. And beneath the how to fight and how to repair relationships and sex and money, all those things, I'll never leave without fail.

It's just a room of sobbing people because I think beneath that, that layer is my boss is going to fire me. My son is going to turn his head and walk away. My wife is, if she knew, she's going to leave. And so all this theater and all this buildup is there's going to be a breaking of a relationship that we can't come back from. And so there's something powerful about having a stake in the ground, I'm never going to leave. And when you're tethered that way, when your boss is like, I'm never going to fire you. When you're tethered in, now we can actually do that thing, right, which is have that interaction.

Because the stake in the ground, that's where their mind goes in the engagement. That's where your body is solving for. If you say what you really need, if you say what you want, if you say what you're really frustrated about, they're going to go. Because maybe dad did when you were a kid. Or maybe mom did. Or maybe mom was there, but she just scrolled the day away. Yeah.

And so she was present, but she was gone. And there's this sense of they're going to leave. And I think anxiety at its root is a fear of you're all, you're going to be all by yourself. And if they're gone, they're gone. And so we create all this stuff, man. all this theater around that to protect that to protect that to really stop from being alone to be alone right i find that in conversation a lot of the times when people um especially in relationships it could be a surface level little conversation a little argument but it's very

deeply rooted in a trigger and an insecurity that has to do with abandonment that has to do with i'm not enough it has to do with they're going to leave in their mind even though their body's saying the very worst possible outcome, which is being alone. But that's not what their mind is saying in that moment. Their mind is saying, this is all your fault, this is all that's happening to you. Do you find, I mean, does that resonate with what you see? Well, and yeah, if you're a kid and mom is scrolling, the biology is, your body's trying to solve.

What's more, why is that thing more beautiful than me? Why does that thing have more value than me? That's a great. I remember when Hank, my son, when I moved in Nashville, the one gift I bought me, myself was a major league ticket to watch the Astros, lifelong Houston Astros fan, obsessive. That's the one thing I bought myself. And I would get home from my new job and it was too much and it was just, I'd never been the chief officer at a place like that big. I was get home and I would collapse. And so we went from being in Texas, we played baseball all the time. Him and I were always

playing catch, whatever, too, watching it. Yeah. And one day, he's five or six. There's no manipulation here at all he just said dad do you love me as much as the astros and i just went turned it off like that's it because he was just asking we used to do these things together we're not yes i wonder what is this awesome why is this awesome and his body's asking why is that more important to your father than to me because exorcist it a thousand years ago that meant you're on your own and kids can't be on their own and i have i have taken that with me all the way until i'm 40 years old 50 years old, 60 years old, is that if there's a fracturing relationship, it's because I'm unlovable. I did a thing or I'm not as good as. And man, I will fight you for that. I will

cuddle up next to you. I will squash myself for 30 years. Any of wants and desires, whatever, I'll squash all that just to be in a relationship with you. And eventually it explodes. And counseling, we call that leakage. It will find a way out. And usually it's... Can you define that for the listeners, what leakage is? Yeah, it's this sense, it's your body will have to exhale all that stuff you shove down. And so if you're scared about finances, it will come out yelling at somebody for leaving the cereal bowl out. Pick up your stuff. Like it's nothing to do with it. Or it will build and build. I'm going to overgeneralize it here, but it's often the wife of 35 years who worked a full-time job and took care of 100% of the

housework. And every time husband came home from eight hours at the golf course and was like, Hey, I'm going to move all of our money out of this 401k into this investment. My buddy's got to like all that comes out in this. Yeah. And then he's like, what are you so mad about? The shoes are by the door. And it's like, you're never. And it all comes out.

Yeah. And so if you will be diligent about checking in once a week, if you do those things to have exit. I mean, I think of like a steam engine like, if you have those check-in points, if you have those connection points, it doesn't build and build and build, but it will come out. right yeah it'll come out an addiction it will come out some way i can definitely see that like my my own mom she was a type that her mother didn't give her anything she's a type that if her mother lent her a dollar 92 she better come back with a dollar 92 you know wear my pennies right uh and so she would have two to three jobs she paid for her own wedding her own wedding dress i mean she did everything

and so i can see that now as an adult like that comes out in so many different ways of of managing, I'm always having to be very, I would say she would, she would agree, sometimes it would be overbearing. It was always very tied to keep that. So that resonates with me on this, this element of leakage of never feeling like she was getting support. And it comes out in weird ways. Yeah, in very weird ways of that. I didn't appreciate back then, but now I do. I'm curious with, I want to talk about parents now, like adults, like our parents, to where, how do you feel that we communicate, let me rephrases,

how does our relationship with our parents impact how we communicate now, for better or for worse? And let's take it in the worst category. If you don't have a good relationship with your father, for example, there might be somebody listening who didn't have a good relationship

or didn't really have a father or a bad relationship with their mother, really didn't have a mother. How do you find that that now, when you're talking to them and they come to you and they have those kind of, what would it say the mom issues or the dad issues how do you find that that resonates in their life i mean it ricochets through every square inch of their life um you go looking for a maternal

figure or a father figure in all kinds of ways and really underneath that you try to find people to plug that gap that you can anchor into and so now um i say this flippantly but it's it's i say it because i have to because it's it's devastating we've created the loneliest generation in human history we all connect like that's a big like it's what i'll call you or like let's see each other in person because otherwise it can get real quick that we just text that's it and that's just our life and so your body will anchor into a political party now your body will anchor into a sports team your body will anchor into anything desperately seeking that one that one call um hey john just want to let you know i'm really proud of you yeah i had uh there's a psychiatrist i was at a business

event and she was she had managed to stay open during COVID and she basically gobble up all the other business and so when COVID lifted she had at like her practice was crushing and she had hired several new people and she was well then a few years later she said hey we're making more money than we know what to do with and um we've got this I've hired this many new psychiatrists we're crushing this way and I just interrupted her and I'm gonna be honest with you I was throwing spaghetti at the wall just to guess right it's not like i'm a savant but i said he hadn't called yet has he she looked at me and i said your dad has not called and said hey i'm really proud of you and she just started sobbing and it was this this engine chasing this thing right and the thing that

we don't do well as a culture is grief like put a period at the end of that relationship we don't do that well and so we will chase it and chase it and chase it in all kind of ways or we'll stay angry about it and frustrated about it how many times i want to ask you you you that this I'll tell you how many times have I shown up to Thanksgiving thinking this is going to be the different one right this one will be different right every year it's the same right it's the same exact the dynamic is the same the same the exchanges are the same my mom ending up in tears is the same me and my sister making inappropriate jokes and my brother trying to it always ends the same and so 25 to 30 percent of every call that comes into my show is about fractured adult relationship we

cut our parents off. They have cut us off. That's, that's, it's, it's, it's wild to me. And also, you, we, we, we talk a lot about the, that boomer generation that's starting to age pretty quickly. They've accumulated all this stuff. They don't want to hang out with us. It'll, right, they don't want to be a part of this life. And to their credit, like, this world doesn't make sense, right? You have to attach this device to your car so that you can get to it. The whole thing's just too much. And so it's easier just to stay. And so it's easier just to stay and to surround yourself and then everything is pumped into their mind is it's all coming down you're going to die you're going to die right so i get that but there's just this wild fracture and so

for me for the people i talk to it's often making peace with this is your parents or lack of and you have to put a period to the end of that and you have to be sad for a while and then you have to go do the hard work and say who is going to fill what person yeah not group that you're trying to anchor into what person what people are going to fill that for you is that a local church is that a local church is that that your neighbor, I live 17 hours away from my parents now. I've got a couple of surrogate older men in my life that serve that for me, right? And surrogate older women in my life, they're never going to be my mom or my dad. I don't want them to be.

But man, I got to have some presence, right, that we'll say you did a good job on that. Yeah, I definitely, in my own life, I have one set of grandparents that they'll never come visit you. If you want to spend time with them, you got to go up to them. and kids can only be around for a little bit. And it's just that's it. That's what it was. And I look at his life and he was sent off to a boarding school and he was like eight and hardly saw his parents and he just never really had that.

And you can see even now, he never really grew up with a lot of that father figure stuff. And so he never, he didn't pass that down and that that's where it went. But what I find in communication, a lot of the questions that I get, that same type of thing where somebody, it's usually a spouse. will put the other spouse on like a pedestal to where they want how they wanted their dad or their mom to be and then when they communicate it's they're almost talking to the parent

always to their parent not really to the spouse it's them they have like this this gold standard that their spouse can never meet could never does it's not real exactly yeah and it's all in their head of what they wanted their dad to be or their mom to be it's in their nervous system it's it's it's called um the old marriage counseling phrase is you marry your unfinished business and say that again you marry your unfinished business and it's not an adult in your head kind of thing it is a nine year old kid saying what was it about me that was less important than your job what was it about me

that was less important than your beauty regimen or whatever um or and it can be as benign as this and it we way over use the word trauma so i don't want to do that but if you were nine years old during the low fat era, right, when the only thing that mattered was that you were skinny. That was it, right? That was it. And Jane Fonda and the leggings and the cardio for 20. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone was on a diet 24-7 and 365. Oh, gosh. There was videos, tapes, the Walkman, right? Everything tab, diet tab, all that stuff. But you're a nine-year-old girl and you walked down the stairs and your mom just looks at you and goes, oh, honey. You're like pudgy in that shirt. Let's go change that shirt.

Right. We want the boys to like us. We want the boys to think you're cute, right? And you're nine. And you're like, yeah. Then boom, at that moment, I learned that my beauty is extrinsic. Somebody else, somebody else gets to judge that and pass it on to me. And that just becomes the thing you chase.

And what you end up doing is you marry somebody who is like, you can wear that, right? And you want that nine-year-old girl to, that's someone to look at her and go, you are the most beautiful person I've ever seen and you'll never find it right because you expect that person and by the way you got to say it in a way that makes me quote unquote feel and nobody will feel that right and so you're chasing this feeling this feeling and nobody like you said nobody can ever match that and so it's about exhaling and saying this is the person i'm this is the person i'm married they can't fill that gap i got to go do that work and let that little nine-year-old girl go play for god's sakes wear whatever shirt she wants to wear yeah yeah um you were at my house last night my daughter has

worn the same sequin shirt for probably 17 straight days. And she wears it backwards. She wears it backwards. I love it. I mean, my daughter does the same thing. My daughter's five. And we were in a restaurant the other night. And the waitress was awesome.

And I go, man, well, you solve something. And me and my daughter were on a date. And I said, is that shirt on backwards? And I saw the, it ticking. And she said, is there a tag? And my daughter looked and she looked up and smiled. There was a tag. Yeah.

And I was like, you know what? You can wear that shirt backwards all you want. And she was like, yeah. And you know, it was like this awesome victory. But that could have been the moment where. like nobody's gonna like you if you wear your shirt backward and said dude you're nine wear your shirt however you want to wear

for my daughter it's her frozen she has these frozen slippers shoes every outfit she wears like hey does it work absolutely it works and that's it and I think the difference between how we're parenting and how we are parented is we will

that's not a hill I'm gonna die on yeah right before we keep going this episode is brought to you by cozy earth one thing that I love about Cozy Earth is their bed sheets and their bath towels. I am officially at the age where I really care about that kind of stuff. I care a lot about what I'm sleeping in and when I'm traveling, there's nothing worse than knowing that that's not your bed. It's not how it feels. The sheets aren't great. I've never had to worry about that with Cozy Earth. Once we put them on

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to your sales plus the funding you need to go even bigger and real-time insights so you know what's working what's not and what's next because when you're doing big things your tools should to visit square.ca to get started go to cozy earth how do you see the fear of abandonment come up in communication or at least manifest i know we talked about leakage now how it spreads throughout everything specifically the fear of abandonment. I see that a lot in emails that I get of people saying, I want to argue, I want to have a conversation, but they're always, that they make this conversation feel like this is the very last one they're ever going to have. And they feel like this is either life or death kind of conversation. And it prevents me from having the difficult talks

with them because they feel like if there's any kind of struggle, any kind of conflict, they want to avoid it. Why? Because if we actually talk about it, he's gone. She's gone. Yeah. Well, and I think one of my core tenets is you have to choose reality if that's true if they're actually going to leave then y'all need to have that conversation because they're already gone yeah they've already left you they're just staying on the couch right most of the time we end up having a lot of proxy wars you don't make enough money I don't like the way you dress you're always on playing video games those are all proxy wars and we fight at that surface level and never get to the actual issue define proxy wars um it's a it's a it's a proxy

in a household is, I mean, they happen at the global level too, right? But it's a battle over here. China in the U.S., if they got in a fight, everybody dies. So they're going to fund this little country to fight that little country. They're going to check out each other's technology. They're going to see what are y'all doing? How do you all respond to this? But we're not going to fight because that fight is too costly. Little battles. That's little battles all over the place about silly things or dumb things or even big things, right? But most of the time those things are fought over here there's a little tiny there's there's peace and then we go on about our life and so if you really think honestly if you're honest with yourself and I suggest people write this stuff down get that

out of your head because most of the time you write down like he's not going to leave she's not going to actually leave if she will then she's already gone and y'all need to have that conversation you don't want to but you'll need to have that conversation and there's a real cost economically there's a real cost um relationally there's a real cost spiritually that's real but you're having it anyway. The other side of it is sit down and actually have the true conversation, and you know this better than me, but almost not 99.9% of time, whatever you're about to enter into, start with eye statements. Yeah. Instead of you. Because the moment you say the word you, we're at war, and I have to defend myself, right? Yep. Every time. Every time. When you hear somebody

say, you ask them how they are, and they say, I'm fine, I'm fine. Now, with your two PhDs, yeah, How do you see that situation when they say I'm fine? Yeah. But they're anything but fine. I have two, well, it depends on if I'm in a close relationship with somebody. Let's say it is. Let's say you're in a, uh, if I, if I saw you, and we were hanging, I was like, you're doing good and you're like, I'm fine.

Yeah. I would know, no, you're not. And so I would have a good enough relationship with you and I would say, do you're not. We don't talk about it, but you're not. Yeah. And if you want to talk about it, we can. Well, that's an important point, though. I've not forcing the conversation.

No. But just knowing. I need you know I see and the door is open. I'm not going to drag you through that door. Yeah. And I think in, especially in romantic relationships, one partner tries to just drag the other person through that door. We're talking right.

And you never want to. It's the worst. Right. So I'm not going to do that. But I need you to know, I see that. If I don't know you, I almost never ask the question, how are you? Because that's such a, you don't want to know, right? That my mom's got cancer.

You don't want to know that I might lose my job. Right. So I try not to put somebody in that. position the same as my dad was a homicide detective right so when I'd get in trouble as a kid come home late it was like so tell me about last night right like it was we were sitting in an interrogation room right and it was on right and now it's me versus my dad if I can beat my dad I'm pretty good right right I don't do that to people like if I have an employee and I know they stole something I'll say hey there's $500 missing and you're the last person that had that

we can't steal at this company so and I'm not going to be like so did you take the I'm not going to do that and so same with those kind of questions like how are you how are things going almost it uh when I ask you how are you doing it puts me in a lifeguard stand above you and I tried not I try to still breathing yeah if if it well it it adds a power hierarchy like how are you you know I mean it yeah it if you don't know the person if I don't know you like you yeah and so I like to and I don't know somebody and this sounds strange I like to get underneath that hierarchy give you the like lift you up you tell me about your day man yeah like you look fantastic i want to elevate you the best i can yeah and let you know i'm with you i'm not

trying to well how are you well how are you right right i think that's right the what we've talked about too is you try to use phrases that instead of our evaluation like how are you it's a very you're using using using more action what's going on what's happening what's happening this weekend what are you excited about things that you don't have to get on the subsurface of tell me all your wants and fears and dreams that's it you know let's just talk about the because that one person there's always that one annoying person that's like do you really want to know yeah yeah i've got raging hemorrhoids right and you're like no no no no no no you do yeah like i don't want to put you in that position if i don't know you yeah i know i think that's i think

that's right with your um experience in crisis response i want to go there for a little bit what have you seen shake out or for our listeners if there's something that they could take away of when you've gone into these crisis situations communication wise what is kind of your first priority when you're dealing with crisis management when you're dealing with this is a bad situation how do you how do you start to break this apart how do you start to break it down what are you really looking for um for me the the most important line i was ever given by the guy who trained me dr young trained me calm contagious if I'm showing up to a scene or to a situation and I go running and I'm like what's going on I've just brought my crazy to this madness right and so one of the rules was if at all possible walk walk to the scene and bring a calm presence and it just has a contagion effect to everybody exhales and then maybe the one person isn't exhaling and that's the person you want to go sit with can you I want to make sure that that my audience understand the significance of the things that you're walking into.

So can you define for them, when I say your crisis management, that kind of crisis? I've walked into an active shooter situation at a college at your school, I mean, that we were both at. I've walked into rooms where somebody has a child who's passed away in the next room, right? I mean, it's bad. I've walked into a room where there is blood and guts and it's been wild stuff. and there may be police officers in there who aren't who aren't breathing or EMS folks who are like got their hands on their knees right so it's not just the victims and it's not just the it's a mess right and if I walk in and I don't bring the temperature that room down as much as possible I just bring more it's everybody just tenses up so you get brought in to solve the the what to help just lower the elevation when you say I go in as I'm part of the crisis management is it's

the goal to get everybody to kind of lower down or are you solving for a particular equation it's falling for my job usually in those and when I was doing that with the police department was I it was my job to make sure a parent did not go into that room where their kid was no it was my job to make sure um because here's what happens you have a six year old who passed away or a 19 year old that just died by suicide in that room and you're going to go in there hug your kid right and you can't it's against a law you can't touch a body and Now the policeman's got to get in between you because it's a crime scene until it's not, right? I don't even know that.

So police will show up and work at Homicide Back. That's just the training. And so you can't go in there and touch anything. Well, if I walk into a house and my six-year-old's in there, I'm going in that room, right? Yeah, yeah. And so what happens is a police officer has to get in front and then somebody's going to hit a police officer. Yeah. That's my kid.

Correct. And they're doing exactly what all of us would do. Better bring more than two. Right. Yeah. And nobody wants to arrest. Right. Right. So my job was to meet somebody in the front yard or to meet somebody in the living room. Okay. And compassionately say, you don't want to go in that room. And it would be a heavy, right? Or it would be talking to a college student who's like, I want to be dead tonight and say, we're not going to do that. And there's a presence. I'm not going to let you do that. And so you knowing that's not going to happen, even if you think it is, there's a steadiness and a calmness to. That's not, that's a the table. So now what we're solving for is not that we're solving for. What's the best place

you can go get to help and care that you need? And most people in that situation need to want something to anchor into. And so there's a calm and a steadiness. I don't think as many people know about that part of you as I wish there were. I think more people need to hear of your experience there, just as any of the stuff that you put out. Yeah. I think you really need that kind of stuff is huge. Well, I appreciate that. But also, like the, it's now I don't, I don't run around police officers in the middle of night anymore, but now it's, um, hey, we just found out our four-year-old has a terminal brain cancer. She's not going to see five. And in that moment, you have two parents or one parent who are just every tether to the reality just got clipped. Yeah. And so I'm

going to come here and be as present as I can. Right. And give them something to hang on to so that we can get to the reality of here's what's what the next year is going to be like yeah and i'll be here calm is contagious i love that then the next one is facts are your friends facts are your friends and so tell us about that that would be showing up to a door and there's just a car wreck and a husband passed away right and you got to go tell we got to go tell mom we got to go tell his wife and we show up to the door and there'd be some fumbling some ma'am it was raining and right so she opens the door and there's somebody in a full uniform or three guys what's happened It was raining outside.

You open that door. They already know. Man, there's a car wreck and your husband has died. I'm going to say that. And then we will, I'll be here sturdy to catch that jet blast. And usually there's two or three, like somebody collapses, somebody starts screaming. Somebody says, no, no, it didn't, right? And whatever their problem solving is, is separate, right?

But there's that phone call you make. Your son has passed away, right? Or your son's on life support, your daughter's on life support. I need you to get on a plane tonight and get here as soon as you possibly can. What, what, your daughter's on life support. I need you to get here as soon as you possibly can. When you arrive, I'll clue you in.

Or when I would call parents in the middle of night, and I've probably done this, gosh, 100 times, 200 times. Call a parent and say, this is Dr. John Deloney from whatever university, your child is living and they are safe. That's how to start that conversation. Because that's what they want to know.

And now they're in prison. Or they have been in a wreck and they've broken both legs and you all need to make your way here. You can get here tomorrow, but it's always the facts are your friends. I'm going to tell you the truth. And so take that out of that wild situation to a marriage. Yes. Like, I'm considering leaving this marriage.

Not any of this dancing around. And I've reached a point where you've cheated on me for the last time. I've contacted an attorney. I'm planning on leaving this marriage. The music stopped. The lights are on. There's no more dancing. Right.

it's getting to that what's that thing and usually for people in a marriage to get at that level of clarity you either have to spend some significant time journaling and writing the stuff out so you know you filter through all the feelings all the all the all the you're trying to solve it all here's what I want here's what I know to be true or you got to go spend some time with a therapist to help distill that down where are you those are hard man before we keep going I want to take a second to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast called peak P-I-Q-U-E, and they make some of the best teas I've ever had. I'm now a tea guy, and this part of my life. Sparkling water and carbonation does not go well with me, and so I like flavor in my water,

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That's really cool. And a glass beaker. When you grab there, bundle. It's backed by a 90-day guarantees, which is pretty cool. So go to peaklife.com. Remember, that's P-I-Q-U-E-Life.com slash Jefferson and get 20% off for life. Clear gut, clear head, clear conversations. And now, back to the episode. Man, yeah, I don't think enough people know of just the tools that you just talked about right there. A lot of the stuff I know, you know, it's an It's innate, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was that the calm is contagious. Right.

If you can, walk. But that's your master, that's what makes you such an great attorney is the other side's whole job is to get you stirred up. Sure. Yeah, yeah, that's all they ever want. You can't have that. Yeah, no, you can't. And the same thing, the facts are your friends.

When you open that door, be as direct as you can be. Why? If you open that door and go, okay, we need to talk. It's over. It's over. Same thing in a text message. Same thing with a phone call. Right, right.

If you have the hard news to deliver, if you have something sensitive to talk about, the last thing that you want to do is send that we need to talk. I mean, that's just not going to happen. And so that's the same thing in, of course, not near as significant and deep as the things you're having to deal with. But the truth is still the same. When you can get very direct, it's also very kind. It would be unkind of you.

Clear is kind. Yes. It would be unkind of you to open that door and the mother see you. with the two police officers and you're just like, hey, you're doing good? It's right, how's everything? Yeah, how's the day going? This weather's crazy, right?

Yeah, they didn't say it was gonna rain. And that's if you're a boss, and you call somebody at Friday afternoon at 4 o'clock and you're like, hey man, so do I like those shoes? The person you just brought in, their heartbeat is at 175. Like they're not listening to a word you're saying. They wanna know, am I fired, am I fired, am I fired, am I fired?

Am I fired, am I fired? And honestly, like talking about anxiety, that's why it's such a big deal to me. to take care of on a day-to-day basis all that other stuff right all your other life stuff you can have that conversation which i've had with it with a boss if you swear at me again i walk out that door and i don't come back but i can only say that if i don't owe anybody any money that's true right i can only say that if me and my wife chose to live in a 900 square foot rental house for a long long time and we drove comically hilarious, cheap, ridiculous cars that barely started for years

so that, because it's cool to act all like tough, like bottom line, right? And there's some data on when women just draw the line and they leave. His net worth goes up and hers falls off a cliff for a season, right? And so there's a, there's realities to it that make it cool when I'm like, you just need to, all right, man, there's a cost to that. and your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing that's the cliff right and so anxieties can can be a great um it's just the lights on your dashboard man it's the smoke alarm in your kitchen it is a way to get your attention to say hey i'm recognizing here that you're not stable you're not okay that's a good point to make that the and i remember you telling me this when i was having my you know my introduction to it anxiety is not a inherently bad thing it is It can be very much the signals on the dashboard of letting you know your meters of how it's just a reflection of how your body's doing. Right. So think about this like if we just back up and go a thousand years.

If you are a successful husband, father, and tradesman, professional, right, whether you're making shoes or you're an attorney or you're a roofer. And suddenly two million people are bombing you with all sorts of, you're buying. body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night because that's not normal right and i think our the current ecosystem is let's shut down that body as soon as possible so we can get on to whatever's we want to do and you can do that for a season but eventually your body will say okay you're not getting that message i quit right i'm out and i think for me i want people to go as far as far up river as you can it's why dude i'm past i've been married forever i'm past like trying to look like Brad Pitt. That's not going to happen.

I mean, if I squint. I mean, that's right. That's right. In the dark. I exercise now so that I can hang out with my kids and they're active. And so one day if I have grandkids, I'll be able to roll around with them. And so if the day comes, I have a heart issue or I get cancer, I've given my body the best chance it can to recover. Right. And it's the same as, you know what, I'm going to drive this crummy car. so that I'm going to I am going to not have a house full of clutter so I can give my space my brain space to breathe so that when my parents are like come get all your crap from high school and they drop it off right we got some closet space right it's it's I'm going to give my life some margin and right now in our culture I think margin is seen as insanity yeah just you're it's insane if you have margin when you are in conversation with somebody I'm just curious of your take on what are some ways that that we can inherently hurt the trust

that somebody puts in us. Is it really the words that can drive it sometimes? You find it's the actions. There are people who say actions speak louder than words kind of thing. I'm just curious of your take on, are there certain things that we might say in conversation that have the tendency to break someone's trust? Is it promises that you've kept and didn't keep?

man that's a great question um just curious on your your take on trust trust in a relationship when you when you have the people who call into your show yeah dr john daloney show it's great it's great the way you handle people off the hours and the professional people like the brilliant minds that the months we spent in a room to come up with that was the title of the show right it was good it's good um yeah i think a core tenant for me is behaviors a language And that's a good one. Like, I, it doesn't matter what you say. If you can make, I love you, though.

And every time I walk in a room, you flip your phone over. Yeah. And we've been married for 15 years and we have three kids together. And I don't know the password on your phone. Right. It's clear. Yeah. What are you doing?

Like, yeah, right? And so, um, I'm a big advocate. And I know this will make everybody, this is like the ultimate trigger. If we're married and we have created humans together. Yeah. and we don't share a checking account, there's trust issues that we need to talk about. Like, no, this is my money.

That's my money. For good or for bad. There are trust issues. Let's have a conversation, right? And it may be, yeah, that your dad took money out of your account when you're a kid or you were in a previous relationship and it was very financially abusive

and the only that I can breathe is knowing that I've got this safety. They can have good motives and good reasons. Always. That doesn't mean it's not a trust issue. That's it, that's it. And I think what I have to wrestle with and this has been my demon for years is,

Um, I have an older sister who's a savant, like comically smart. Yeah. My little brother missed two questions on the ACT, too. And I played Texas high school football, right? And so for my whole childhood, I've been desperate for people. I don't have two PhDs because I'm smart. I was a desperate attempt. Seriously.

Like, am I smart now, mom, right? And she's like, I was Dr. Delani before you. That's cute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's been a desperate attempt. well how does that play out every time I would for years when I was on a new diet I was the guy that ruined every party like somebody would be like oh let's get some let's get some bread for the table well you know man and just but it came from a desperation for people to walk away like that guy's really smart and it came away it came off as I don't hang out with that dude he's so annoying he won't shut up right it was a desperate attempt to but to be liked to be loved to connect And it wasn't until I learned to begin to unhook that from, I don't need that.

I've got a core crew that's like, if you blow your life up, you can come stay at our house. We're going to laugh at you. But like, we'll sit with you in court if you blow it up. But once I unhooked from all that, then it's this freeing thing. Yeah. It's a spirit of freedom.

Now I can sit here when you're like having whatever you're eating at dinner. And I can be glad that you enjoy it. And I could know, it's probably killing you. And I can also know, I'm probably wrong because I've been wrong every time. I've come up with the diet or the workout plan or the whatever. It's a humility. They're good, the better.

I don't know. That's right, man, what I'm doing? I don't know. Yeah. And so there's a humility to it. And I think when you meet somebody for the first time, last night, I ran over to the local comedy club, did 10 minutes on a showcase night.

There was 15 comedians crammed in this little bitty room. It's hard not to like kind of size people up and what have you done? who you yeah what are you doing yeah and there's this if i walk in that room and know that those hundred people those 200 people in the audience like they don't get a vote in my life right like i'm not gonna i'm not gonna hand them my identity and self-worth and say do i value do i value and these new folks i have they don't like me this fine like i've got my wife likes me my kids usually like me my friends do like and so that frees me to just say hi my name's john and what i found is it's a

presence that people flock to like a moth to a flame they're so desperate for a sturdy stable person who's not so desperate like grabbing this what do you think what you think man you like my hair you like it's like hey man what's up you know what I mean no I do no I'm right there with you and there I go saying you know what I mean like yeah do you like me still no I'm smart I'm right there and you are smart I've known you long enough to know you very smart I want to take a moment to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast I'm really excited about and that is momentous I'm excited because I use them every single day, and I use them long before this podcast. They are not just a supplement

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a panic attack really about two years ago and since then i wouldn't say at all i've battled with anxiety i'll have these peak moments of It's like alarms in my body of I can feel a lot of tension. I'm not able to release it or all of a sudden I can tell. And I know anybody who's had a panic attack can know this feeling of like, you feel like you're about to go down the roller coaster and it's about to all get loose. I'm curious just between me, no cameras, just between me and you. So I had my panic attack on when I was really starting to get a lot of followers on social media.

I make these in my car. I'm from a small town. I'm not used to all this. And so I'm very curious, this is selfish for me, John, of how do you, when you hear that kind of thing, you've written a book, Building the Non-Axious Life, what caused that for me? For me, I would say it's a place of feeling like I was alone, I guess, is something you said a moment ago that resonated with me of nobody in my small town could relate to what's going on. It happened when my bank attack happened when I was at like 1 a.m. alone at the, for whatever reason, nighttime is worse.

I don't really get them in the day, but at night, they're terrible. And I don't, what do you, just hearing that from me, what kind of comes to mine? Because I'm going to take this in as help from me. Yeah, yeah. This is my unsolicited session. I mean, probably the, yeah, one is your body knows, you're all you got. And when it happens real fast, it feels really. It feels really. good. It feels awesome. And it, it's easy to, and I've had the same experience, man. I had social media five years ago, right? And I had nothing. I had none. And so it feels good. When you say it. People saying, I like you. Oh, yes. Okay. Or you're really good looking. Or you're the husband or the brother I didn't have. You're talking about when you're gaining the attention. When it's happening, it feels so good. Yeah. And if you're like me, I don't know, but like

my wife and I have a routine and that my wife would die for me and she doesn't tell me I'm great and wonderful every day and now I have five million people telling me I'm great wonderful she's also your biggest critic yeah yeah yeah because she also sees

bro she's been gone for five days this is true did you know this morning I I dried my underwear with a blow dryer because I oh my gosh I needed clean clothes

yeah right and we have a very egalitarian marriage. But it's, it just was a thing and a thing. And I don't, can I have a snack? Hey, we're doing for breakfast. Hey, Dad, you don't have any coffee? Yeah. And here I am.

And your wife's incredible. She's amazing. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not a bumbling, like, husband. Like, where's my son? It's not our marriage at all. No, I know that. But here I was, right?

Yeah. And so, A, it feels good. And this is a personal belief of mine. It's divorced from reality. Your body knows those aren't. There's a thing we have right now. Yeah. right you can feel me in this room right on electronically it's divorce from reality and the other

thing that i think is true is there's always this question am i right am i good enough for this yeah like i'm pretty good but i'm not worth five million people right um who am i and there's the assumption that these like other successful people feel a certain way and they don't they're just is insecure. That's a great. Right. And Oprah's talked about this, that everybody from a president to, you know, famous authors to like world leaders, whatever, as soon as their interviews over, they go, is that good? Is that good? Like, last night, there was comedians that are great comedians that walked back and were like, they're just looking like, was that good? You know what I mean? No, yeah. To a room full of, you know what I? Yeah, yeah. It's this innate sense of, am I enough? Yeah. And when you're getting that especially electronically, but. You get that anywhere. I grew up with not very much money. Like money was a huge thing in our house. And the first time I crossed a financial threshold,

I didn't realize this, but growing up, my family culture was those people have that. And I'll suddenly, am I one of those people? I'm not one of those people. You know what I mean? Are you living in the perceptions of what you've always thought? Right. And so now, but it's just loss of identity.

And your body just says, I'm sounding the alarms. let's go back to where it's safe. Yeah. And so anybody that makes a elite professionally, personally, this can be that moment when you're like, oh, I'm falling a love. Mm-hmm. And your body knows, hey, we remember love?

Mom left. Yeah. Sound the alarm. Go back to where it's safe. And we've all broke up with somebody and you go home. You're driving home after the breakup. You're like, why don't I just do that?

Yeah. But it's like, I feel comfortable here. Your body's always solving for homeostasis. And the moment, even if it's great and wonderful and good, When you break home, you lose 30 pounds, you'll put 40 back on. Your body is comfortable where it's comfortable at. And so, man, it's just knowing this is part of the ride. This is the ride I'm on.

And the moment I stopped trying to go to war with my body, the moment some of those panic attacks start to... Yeah. You gave me the recommendation, the body keeps the score. Yeah, it's a great book. That was the recommendation that you're like, you need to go. And I also have given that recommendation a lot. And then I reread it recently, and it's like, this is a really good. dense science book. It's not super helpful.

Yeah. Let me be honest. I got through the first like few chapters and I went and looked at the summary. Well, that's right. I need to quit doing that. Like it's good though. You read you seven articles. That's so nerdy. But I think there's a it's not going to work with my own body. And then I've got to go back and ask, am I using this as a proxy for how's my marriage? Yeah. How's my relationship with my friends? Do I have any friends? Right. Have I tied all my my self worth to my net worth have I that's another like yeah bro like in our culture we answer that question what are you worth we answer that with a number that's insane right it's madness it's

pretty wild it's insane it's not I don't think that's why we were put on this earth no yeah like the answer to the question what are you worth is who do you love and who loves you not yeah how many vacations did you not take right right so how are you serving that's a much better measure right right who are you helping yeah and so the the the the question if anyone's feeling anxious, if anyone's feeling, starting on that. Man, and panic attack is scary because it feels like you're being betrayed by your own body. I went to the ER that night. That's it.

I mean, I thought I was dying because I was like, when they asked you, like, do you have stress or anxiety? And I was like, no, I don't have anxiety. That's for the weirdos. I just have three million people checking on me every day of my life. Right. Yeah. And commenting on my car, my hair, my clothes, my, everything.

You don't look happy today. You're like, right. All of it all in one minute. And this little phone of like, it's just a pixel on a sky. green of, so I've always had a healthy relationship with it. I've always, I don't feel like I've ever taken what they say is my word. Sure. But in terms of, I think the amount of eyeballs at once, when you never expected this,

you never wanted this, I think that made me feel very, my body was like, nah, something's not right with how you're processing this. Well, and you had people, and we won't put them on the show, but you had very famous people reaching out. Yes. And suddenly, I've had this. this feeling like, I don't belong at that table. Oh, yeah.

I still struggle with that. I don't need to be in this room. I remember I walked into a speaking event and they had speaker gifts for everybody lined out and there were these really insanely nice, like, leather bags. They were awesome. But they had the names on them. And I walk in and it was Coach Sabin was one, Jocko, Jay Leno, Dave Ramsey, John Deloney. And I was like, I'm leaving.

Like, you know what I mean? I was like, I don't, no, no. Best coach ever. right best comedian of all time these I'm out I'm a Navy SEAL for God I'm out like in so there's this sense like I don't belong at this table and what's fun it for me is when you sit down with not all of them but many of them nobody feels like they belong at that table that's the big scam of it all and if you do you're like this is my table you're putting to see somebody right yeah everybody's just a person that's right and that sounds so trite

and silly but but it's it's it's it's very much the truth because you you expect like oh how how's that person doing it how because they look so cool they look so free and easy take it off of real famous people yeah i had that same exact thing when i was assistant dean and yeah my supervisor was like hey we're gonna go have a dean's meeting you can come with the big deans the real ones oh the big and i'm like bro i don't need to be yeah i'm walking into this room or you're the assistant director of the mail room and suddenly you get to go to the leader of the communication meeting and you're like i don't belong you know and every alarm i can remember sitting in my first partners meeting at a law firm like i'm a partner

It couldn't have been any cooler And then you sit in you're like This is not nearly as cool as I thought it was Or if you get together with a mom's group And you've just had your first kid And everyone's on kid two or three It's easy to be like, I don't fit in here I don't belong here

And it goes back to that original Like I don't believe I have a right to sit at this table So let's put it back For our listeners Let's put some takeaways with it One everybody's trying to figure stuff out yeah to very few people believe that they are worth sitting in it's at the in the seat that they're sitting in yeah i think that's almost everybody in a marriage in with your kids with

at church at your job at whatever very few people believe they're worth sitting where they're sitting i think that's yeah that's really well said i'll too i want to end with the calmest contagious that i really liked three is it was his great line that you said it's kind of a principle of therapy of you marry your unfinished business yeah yeah or really you you even get into relationship with your unfinished business almost always you take jobs that solve your unfinished business um you we we we I always want people to go back to and just sit with like and this is an exercise I have people do all the time yeah just close your eyes and sit in a chair and give yourself 30 minutes and if you can't find

30 minutes that in and of itself is an issue but find 30 minutes that in and of itself is an issue but find 30 minutes and close your eyes and imagine your nine year old self or your 16 year old self right in front of you yeah what would you tell her without yeah can you i don't know if anybody can do that without crying i often will tell people write write that kid a letter and your 16 17 18 year old self who is drinking give that kid a high five and a hug because that kid was doing whenever he could to survive if the 16 17 18 year old you that slept around too much that like you're ashamed Give her a hug, because she was trying to find somebody that said, I see you. Even if it's for three minutes, you know what I mean?

Like, I see you. And it's being compassionate with the decisions you made when you're a kid and treating yourself, that form of self with respect and dignity. And then the hard work is, all right, now I've got to go do the next right thing, which is I got to find some people. I got to go get counseling. If I need to, dude, I see a therapist. And I just for living.

I see somebody. And just the last session I was in, I was like, dude, how, how, did I miss that one for my whole life, right? And so you're always uncovering things. And then there's those daily principles of I got to treat my, I got to be a good steward of my body. I've got to be a good steward of my wife. I've got to be a good steward of my kids and my job.

And it just unhooks all this extrinsic stuff. So good. Man, thanks for sitting down with me. No, thanks for in your own studio. Thanks for inviting me to my own house, man. The first time in your other chair. I know. I feel like I'm sitting in like your favorite lounge in the living rooms and go

on the couch. No, I'm just, I'm just glad you texted me and said, hey, let's wear the same shirt, bro. You like that? Yeah, it's good. If you never know what to wear for guys, we always wear blacks. It always works. Because it covers up all of our insecurities. Yeah, all of our problems. So we're going to go get tattoos before you leave? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to get some sleeves. You're in? Yeah, I'll have to ask a few people, but, yeah. A few people.