The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - The Lawyer’s Method to Shut Down Narcissism

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

If you’ve ever walked away from a conversation feeling spun, rattled, or subtly controlled, this episode is for you. Drawing directly from my experience as a trial lawyer, I break down the exact strategy I use in court to disarm manipulative and narcissistic behavior—without escalating, over-explaining, or losing your footing. You’ll learn how to stop their momentum, respond in a way that gives them nothing to grab onto, and use one powerful phrase that instantly puts you back in control of the conversation. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Monarch Money. 50% off your first year at https://monarchmoney.com/jefferson  BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a trial attorney, I have to disarm manipulative people. And in this episode, I'm going to share with you the number one strategy that works every single time. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast, where I'm on a mission to make a next conversation, the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tips to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to please subscribe wherever you are listening. Wherever you see it, click subscribe, a like, a heart, whatever. It really helps me. It helps my family. and it helps me continue this mission to improve everybody's communication.

This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I am a big fan of Cozy Earth long before they sponsor me because, as the name suggests, it's very cozy stuff. I first got the product from a bed sheet that was, admittedly, I have no shame in saying it was new bedsheets. And I was like, these are some of the best I've ever had because I'm a, I sleep very hot. And these bamboo sheets were fantastic. Then that was just kind of the gateway. Then it's towels. Then it was hoodies and sweatshirts and

sweatpants and regular pants and T-shirts. I'm a big fan of it. If you like premium products that feel good, that feel comfortable this holiday season, you need to go try Cozy Earth. Go tocozyEarth.com slash Jefferson and get up to 40% off. That's cozyEarth.com slash Jefferson and use the Gogeerson to get 40% off. Understand that when you're in a courtroom, the dynamics are very different. Everything is pressured. It's like a vacuum. You have a judge that's right in front of you. You have a bailiff, a court reporter, you have a jury, you have opposing counsel, you have the other party, you have your client, there's people in the back watching you. Everything is pressured in that moment. And when witnesses are on the stand, it's like a switch gets flipped. Like they almost forget

that there are people watching and that the words really matter. And they become almost like they're in a corner where they don't want to say the truth without making it a fight. Like they just don't want to. They could give you the truth, but they don't want to because they would rather try to manipulate the system. Have you ever watched a trial on TV? Like a real trial. I'm not talking about one on the movies or anything. I'm talking a real trial. And you might think, they're kind of boring. Or maybe you've been on a jury and you thought, oh, this is kind of cool. In real life, the witnesses know that if they tell the truth, you know that if they tell the truth, there is a major consequence either way. If they tell the truth, there's a consequence.

If they don't tell the truth, they may or may not get out of it. Like they don't even, for some reason, it blows my mind. So many people that I've caught lying on the stand. It's not even in the deposition where you're not in the courtroom, but actually in the courtroom, just a lie. It's just a lie. And once they do, they think they're going to get away with it. And it doesn't happen, it backfires. And it could only take one case, one lie that ruins an entire matter for somebody. It ruins the entire case for someone. So how do you disarm the manipulator? Here's some things I want you to keep in mind. Number one, manipulators need momentum. Disclaimer, everybody manipulates. Whether you know that you're doing it on purpose intentionally, not intentionally,

everybody has been that person. I'm not saying it's become their whole identity. and you can put a label over that person as they are the manipulator. Hi, nice to meet you. Yes, there are some people like that, but for the vast majority, it is a word that indicates a change in somebody's behavior to try and get somebody to do something different, to control their perception, to control the facade in some way. And I guarantee you, because I've done it, right? I've been the manipulator.

You've been the manipulator. Everybody has, to some extent, that's like saying nobody lies. Everybody lies, all right? Manipulation is not itself the root cause. It is a symptom of something much deeper. All right. All right. So box over. Number one, manipulators need momentum. The more they can get you in rhythm, the more they can find that grasp of control. Then they kind of get their claws into you. When I am deposing a witness, across examining, If I keep up with their momentum, meaning if I'm tracking along and we're just talking out of fast pace, I'm much more likely that I'm going to miss something because that's what they want you to do. They want you to miss the details. But if I slow it down, everything changes. Manipulators need momentum. So what I do? I slow that moment. I bring it to a halt. That's where I might say, I'd like to stop right there. I want to slow down right here. I like for us to walk through this, not run. Or the way I say it is, I like for us to stop running for a second and just walk.

I'm setting the tone of, oh, hold up, put on the brakes. And watch what happens. Those that are trying to manipulate do not like to slow in down. They don't like the specifics. They have much rather stay in the abstract. Don't give them the detail. They don't want that. They can't do much with that. They need the vague. They need the general. They need fast. They need momentum. So what do you need to do? First thing I need you to do to disarm a manipulator is to slow it down.

Stop their momentum. All right. Number two, short neutral phrases. I use short neutral phrases in cross-examination. meaning if I'm not having to ask a question and I'm responding to something that they said, I'm not going to give them things that they can continue to build on. When you're talking to somebody who's showing narcissistic tendencies or manipulative tendencies, you don't want to give them tender for the fire. Whenever you use phrases like, well, I guess if you want, I mean, I guess if that's what you think, I mean, sure, I guess, whatever. if you start saying things that are passive aggressive,

if you start saying things like, oh, mm-hmm, okay, that's great, good for you. Things that you know they're not going to like because you're saying it with a tone. Maybe you're being trying to be cute with it, you know, smart with it. You're trying to jab them with it. That's going to just, you're giving tender for a,

you're just throwing it into a fire is what you're doing. You're causing a major buyer. Instead of that, pouring gasoline, short neutral phrases, here's what I mean. You're going to say something like noted. Got it. Appreciate it. Good to know. Thank you.

Or, you know what I also like doing? Non-verbals. That means I give it an old. Hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm not even saying words, but yet I'm communicating. And the biggest thing that I'm doing in that moment is showing them, I'm giving you nothing to grab onto.

There's nothing that you can grab and run with and try and distract me, and try and push me in some way and direction that I'm not going. So short, neutral phrases, they work and they always help. Before we keep going, I want to take a minute to tell you about Monarch. One of the conversations that I hear a lot as I come into 2026 from people around me is around finances, a lot of pressure around the holidays, right after the holidays, into the new years. It's not that they avoid the number. It's really having an actual understanding of the numbers. And they're making a plan. That makes sense. And that's hard for a lot of people. Well, Monarch makes that much easier. Managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle this year. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed. to make your life easier. It brings you entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one single dashboard on your laptop or your phone. And what I like about it is it helps you kind of have a reset after everything from the holidays

and the chaos and now you're trying to do budgets. It makes it just that much more simple. This new year, achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code Jefferson at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code Jefferson. And now back to the episode. And number three, I want to give you a phrase that is going to change the way you think about people trying to manipulate you.

Think of a drain, a swirling drain maybe in your bathtub or your sink. And as that water gets pulled in, what happens? it gets faster and faster and faster and it gets sucked in. Well, we've already discussed in rule number one, we're going to slow it down, meaning we're not going to continue to speed up and go down the vortex. Two, we're going to make sure that we use short neutral phrases that, again, aren't going to speed up the vortex.

The phrase I want you to remember is, I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm going to say it again. I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm going to say it again for you. I'm not getting pulled into that. I want that to see you into your mind for a second.

When I've used this mostly in depositions, I am signaling, making it very clear. I usually save it for a last resort. Anytime I've done it, it is necessary. for me to be able to tell that person where you think I'm going, ain't happening. It's the same way of saying,

I'm not going there. I'm not going there with you. I'm not getting pulled into that. The reason why I like not getting pulled into this is because it creates imagery of you're trying to draw me away from what I know. You're trying to draw me away from what I know. to draw me away from my truth of what the facts show,

what the evidence shows. The same way of saying, I'm not going there with you. If you wanna go, that's fine, I'm not. I'm not getting pulled into that. Has imagery of the drain, has imagery of Smyt trying to pull you with a rope. When I use the bird pull, I am highlighting, I can see what you're trying to do.

You're trying to lead me astray. I'm not doing that. Every time I have used that, I get a reaction that is, be prepared, strong, strong, because they're mad about it. They're frustrated. And if they have a very high overreaction to that phrase, I'm not getting pulled into that. It is very indicative that what they're trying to do is not working, and that's a good sign to me. And that's a good sign to you. It should just be red alarms to you flashing and going off

of, okay, I called it. The trap that they said is not working. And now they're just mad. They're mad that I set it off without stepping into it. It's a point in your life where you realize, no, I'm not going there. I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm not stepping into this. I'm not walking into that. Use words of direction. Anytime you feel like somebody's trying to control you, use words of control, use words of direction. You're walking, pushing, pulling, stepping, moving. These are action words of somebody trying to move you off your place. So when I can use those words, I'm queuing that of saying, I can tell you're trying to move me. control me, push me somewhere that would serve you and not serve me. And it's going to be off

the facts, off my memory, off of my truth. Do you hear the difference? Rather than getting worked up and going wherever they want to go and going off that rabbit trail and getting upset and finding that 10 minutes from now, they have me exactly where they want me talking about something else. But if I were to sit back, there's something that they said and I go, I'm not getting pulled into that. Do you know what that does? It is such a power move to be able to have that sense of confidence of going, I know exactly where I am and I'm not moving. When you come to a place in your life where you have to deal with a manipulator and most likely you already have. And again, understanding, acknowledging, disclaiming that yes, everybody can be the manipulator. I can be the manipulator. Everybody

can't. All right. When it gets to that point in life where that's going to happen, you have options. And when you use these options that I'm teaching you with how to disarm that type of maneuver, what I teach you works based on my legal experience in the courtroom and what I've seen with countless people in some of the worst circumstances, when you can slow it down, stop their momentum, when you can use words that they can't make anything with, can't do anything with. And three, you indicate to them that you are not somebody that's going to be moved off your mark, off your spot, off of what you know to be you as a person, as your character, as your

integrity, as your values, as what you know to be yours. It's a different feeling. And you're going to have a sense of clarity that you did not know. was possible. All right? Whatever it is and whatever you are about to be doing or whatever you're going through, I'm proud of you. All right. This episode's going to help. You can try that and follow me.