The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - The Wrong (and Right) Way to Apologize

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

Cory Asbury joins me for an honest conversation about taking ownership, putting your ego aside, and learning to apologize without making excuses. We talk about why being right isn't always worth it, how to respond when someone tells you that you've hurt them, and why taking responsibility is one of the most powerful things you can do in any relationship. Whether it's with your spouse, your kids, or someone you've hurt, this conversation is a reminder that real growth starts when you're willing to own your mistakes and make things right. Join me this Saturday, October 10th, for a free live class where I'll have some big announcements! start.saidwell.co  Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, everybody. On October 10th, this Saturday at noon, I'm going to be teaching a free live class where I'm announcing my first ever communication course and I'm going to teach my first free class right then and there. I hope to see you there. You can go to start. said well. That's the word said and the word well together.com. I'm going to put the link down below. Hope to see you there. Enjoy the episode. You had a very public conflict between you and another Christian artist, Forrest Frank. that affected a lot of people. Can you tell me what really happened between you and Forrest? What have you had to unlearn about how you and your wife communicate? Yeah. Bro, our first year of marriage was tough. We were sure we were gonna make it kind of thing, man.

It was crazy. And I think I came in, we're so selfish. And I think we don't realize that until we get married. We think, oh, I'm humble. I'm so selfless and then you get married and you're like, wait a sec. I have so much to learn. Yeah. So immediately it was a death to self in the most beautiful way.

You know, you have to kind of lose your ego and your self-preservation, almost your self-preference and go, I need to prefer this person now. I have to put them first every single time. And, you know, when we would get into an argument, which we got into many arguments that first year, I mean, it was pretty much all arguments. Again, because mostly me, I was such a selfish piece of garbage. You know, just so self-centered and self-focused. Yeah. But when we would get into an argument, I was bent on winning.

I wanted to win the argument because that's what you do, right? Right. You were mad and you know. This is what we do. That's what we do. Yeah. And I realized, you know, through the tutelage of a wise leader at that point, it's not about winning an argument. It's about winning their heart every time. And so I set out to go, I don't have to win.

In fact, it's better to admit that I was wrong immediately. Find what I can own, right? Yeah. Go, dude, I screw this up, babe. I'm so sorry. That's my fault and be the first to apologize. That was everything in those in those first really two years. That was huge. But it's just been a a slow progression of death to self for 20 years. Yeah. Just learning to prefer someone else. And we're in year, what, 19? Yeah. Now? Yeah, going on 20. How do you communicate differently now versus? So much more gently. I grew up with a dad who was a screamer and a yeller and a cusser and our family was intense. We would just hash it out. We'd go after it. Like that was normal in our family. Every day battle. Oh, every day. That was so normal. And unhealthy. Don't get me wrong.

Right. Of course. Unhealthy in a lot of ways. But my wife came from the exact opposite. Her parents never fought. Were they unhealthy and toxic? Absolutely 100%, but they didn't show it to the family. Right. So she never saw that. So she just thought, oh, my parents are perfect. They never fight because they were hiding everything. Yeah.

So then all of a sudden we're getting into verbal altercations. And it's like she's freaking out going something's so wrong. And I'm sitting there going, no, this is this is normal. Yeah. You think this is an argument? Yeah. No, this is we're chilling. You think I'm yelling?

This isn't yelling. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I've had to learn gentleness, tenderness, because it's not my nature. That's not normal for me. I'm like, let's fight. How did you get to that mindset of, see, I hear you going, I had to come to her rather than demanding where I think some spouses do say, they got to come to me. In other words, what would it look like if you had said, I need you to start getting more aggressive, you to start yelling more because that's what I want, you know? You had a different mentality. Great question. And I think to be honest with you, the first maybe five, maybe even more years were that. Me asking her to meet me where I was at, again, because I'm selfish. I'm self-centered. Instead of thinking, I need to come to her level, and that's not to condescend to her level.

But that's to bow low, even maybe in humility and meet her where she's at. But the first few years, bro, were intense. And I was trying to get her, hey, let's hash this thing out. Like, let's go. And she's sitting there going, that's not how I operate. Yes. There is a line that I'll never fail to repeat on any podcast because it's something I try to live by every day. And that is one of the best pieces of advice I got on marriage is when you prioritize the other person's comfort over your convenience.

And man, let's fact. Let me tell you what, that has been every time where I have that. impulse to be selfish. Yeah. Because that's, that's human. That's sinful nature. Very. It's instinct, right? To let me do what this is about me. To where you kind of have to let your grip. Yeah. Off of that and go, no, how can I find ways to. Yeah. I'm going to put myself, I'm going to inconvenience myself for her, for her comfort. And I think that's been something that it's certainly be helpful in my life. And also, kids don't make things easy. year. You got five of them.

Five of them, bro. Yeah, I mean, it definitely becomes more complex, right? I'm going to ask you in a question. How does, how has kids, how does five, how has five kids? How has kids affected how you and your wife communicate? Man. That's the answer right there.

Dude. I mean, it has to be so much more intentional, right? Because your time and your margins get thinner. You know, we've got five kids. I got one who's 16 years old. So he's already got practice, games, all these. That sounds terrifying. Oh, brother. School schedule is wild just in and of itself. Yeah. So finding and in and we've all, we've got all the way down to 18 months, which is a constant, um, you know, she's constantly needing mostly my wife, honestly. Yeah. Um, but intentionality and, you know, it sounds really cheesy,

but like carving out time even on like a calendar, like where we need. know, hey, we're having an intentional conversation about everything. This might be, hey, we're sitting down to talk about all things practical school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, all the kids stuff that's going on. But then we're also sitting down, you know, for a date night or for a post kids bedtime to go, hey, how are our hearts? How are we feeling? How are we doing? It sounds cheesy that you would have to do that. But if you don't, it just falls through the cracks. It's a requirement.

Yeah, you find yourself, you know, in 20 years when all the kids are graduated going like, okay, I've lived with this person who we've done life together, but like, do we still connect and love each other, you know? Right. So there's another human in the house. Yeah, exactly. It's like, what the heck. Yeah.

But definitely being intentional, I think, will keep you in that place of like, no, no, no, this is the person that I love, who I'm married, who I am passionate about, not just a, like, partner. Yeah. Does that's so good. How do you, this is a personal question for me is how do you maintain with the level of creative space that you have to have for songwriting for maybe it's touring or whatever. There has to be some amount of space. You go, I need to be able to have a creative outlet of what you do, especially with music. How do you balance the what you need professionally with how you live personally yeah because kids faith spouse they all take priority yeah how have you managed what's been your secret dude that has been an ongoing

i won't say struggle or even battle that's been an ongoing thing in our lives it can be a struggle and be a good one yeah that's that's true i'm fine with that i like that that. It's been an ongoing struggle and a good one to figure out, you know, she's been a quote unquote stay at home mom for so many years, right? And so the power struggle between is what you do more important or is what I do more important? And there's always this like, well, you get to go out type of language from her. And I'm kind of going, I wish that I didn't have to go out sometimes. I wish I could just be home with the kids. And I'd gladly, you know, daddy daycare thing. this. Like, I would gladly do that and switch and let you go do art or music or whatever.

But we've kind of constantly wrestled and found the tension between, okay, you know, I'm home a lot because I'm writing or I'm in a creative space. And I do that a lot from home. So when I co-write with people, a lot of times they come to the house. Right. You know, and so, or I'm like, I'm writing, I'm journaling, or I'm getting thoughts out creatively to, like, kind of farm for songs, right? Right. But I'm home and I'm in the house. And so it's like, we'll have this battle like, well, you're home, but are you home? Yeah.

Just because you're here. It doesn't mean you're present. Exactly. Are you on with the kids? Are you not? And that's been a wrestle as well, you know, trying to figure out how sacred is that, you know, home time when you're supposedly working. It's just it's a really tough tension to I think to navigate really and I'm not saying that we're doing it perfectly but we've had to go okay

babe let's just say practically that Monday through Thursday 10 to 3 or 10 to 4 I might be home but I am working, even though it doesn't look like I'm working. I'm upstairs writing like a script for a movie or I'm, you know, upstairs, I'm working on a song, whatever it is. And the kids might think I'm home, but I need you to help me protect that space and know that I'm not home even though I'm home. But that's, it's so weird.

Because you want to be home. I want to. Yeah. Yeah. And I even want to be present for the kids in that time, but I find if I'm not focused in the, creative moments, I'm not productive. So that's been an ongoing struggle for sure. Okay, like, how do we navigate this? Do I need to find a space and go rent it? So when I'm gone, I'm gone.

Right, right. That would be more clear and that would be easier, you know. But we're still trying to work through that for sure after 20 years, bro, which is crazy. Yeah. Sounds like, and I've certainly found it to be true is there's a there's no right path to figuring out that balance, the only right path is to talk about it. Yeah. And if you're not naming it, if you're not saying, hey, let's have a conversation about it, even if it's to, even the conversation to say, hey, I know we don't have this figured out, but voicing it rather than just assuming that, well, you're just doing your role and I'm doing

my role and this is what happens, that's going to breed resentment. But if we're at least talking about the fact that this is not, I know this is not what I want to do all the time. and letting her hear that and for her to be able to voice whatever she needs to voice. I find that that makes a big difference rather than just thinking that everyone gets it. Yeah. Not like let's let's communicate about it right. I think that's great. Let's let's say it out loud. Yeah. How of you as a as a dad,

if five kids, you now have a 16 year old boy? Yeah, my only boy. Only boy. Gosh man it's crazy. That's wild. It's crazy. Yeah, I'm my name, my name, my name, my is mine are eight and six yeah and i'm in no rush for him to be uh 16 that that terrifies me how have you learned to not just communicate with your kids i want to i want to specifically hone in on something and that is how important is it for your kids to see you model repair with both your your spouse and for them incredibly important something i never saw in my home growing

growing up and that was really difficult for me. What I've seen bear the most fruit, and I really do think I believe that, the most fruit in our family is my kids seeing me repent to either my wife or to them for ways that I've missed it. I never saw that modeled. You know, with my dad, there was a real air of arrogance. I'm never wrong. I got it right.

may have just screamed and yelled and cussed you into the ground, but you deserved that. Did he apologize? No. Not until much later in my life, probably, you know, I'm 40 years old now, probably early 30s before we really, and I had to bring it up, you know, hey, dad, these moments, they really, really hurt. Right. And he wept and repented.

But never in those moments. Yeah. As a kid, did it happen? But man, when, you know, my son's 16, when I go too hard on him, because that tends to be my thing, that's my tendency. You know, don't cry ever spilled milk. I'm the guy who's getting pissed off when he accidentally spills the milk. Yeah. And I find myself going, oh, my gosh, this is exactly like my dad.

Like, what the heck. Yeah, that hurts. And I have to come back, humble myself after looking like an idiot. he knows that I went way too far. Shouldn't have said the things that I've said. And I could just be like, you know what, buddy? You deserve that. Quit screwing up and I'll quit yelling at you kind of thing.

But coming back and going, buddy, I'm so sorry. That was not right. That was not cool. I don't want to act like that. That's not a representation of who I want to be and who God's called me to be. And I'm really sorry. And he, you know, he might reciprocate or he might. Meaning he might receive that as a 16-year-old and be like, oh, you know, or he might be like, you know what, dad, thank you.

Like, I forgive you. Yeah. That kind of thing. But to go low in humility before your family as a dad, I think speaks so, so loudly and just shows, I don't always have it right. And it's okay. You guys aren't always going to have it right. And that's okay. Yeah.

That's beautiful. When you miss it, just own it. repent, apologize, and move on. God forgives us. We forgive each other. And there's no junk left there where in 30 years you're going to need therapy. Yeah. You know, like, or maybe there is, but hopefully not, right?

Like, that's the goal. Like, that's been the most fruitful thing in our family is honestly me. Anna, too, my wife too. Yeah. But when they see the dad who's supposed to be the big dog, you know, with tears in his eyes go, buddy, I'm sorry, man. I was so harsh on you earlier. I shouldn't have done that.

Like that, that's moved them more than anything, really. Dude, that's awesome. Yeah. I hope that every dad in the world hears that. Because I have to imagine that your life would have looked different. Your childhood would have looked different had your dad model the very things that, Like you're breaking some generational trauma. Yeah.

A guy choosing to, to, and I like that you even use the word repent because in many ways that's, that is what the word means is to, yeah, and I'll even ask, what does that word repent mean to you? Yeah, to turn around to 180 that sucker, you know, to go, I see that this is wrong and I'm turning from that. And I don't want to walk like that. You know, for me, obviously, the blood of Jesus, all those things, right? Like, that's the tradition of faith that I come from. And he models that, you know, for us. And so for me, it's just like completely turned from that thing. And am I probably going to do it again? Yeah, I probably am because I'm human, I'm weak, I'm frail. But it's the

intention of the heart to turn and go, no, no, I don't, I don't want to do that thing again. What I, what I'm hearing from you is, if I could boil that down as first, there's an awareness of, I see where, I first see the path I'm on right now. I see my heading. Yeah. Second is a inner desire to say, that's not the goal that I want, that there has to be some type of choice to say, this is no longer the destiny. where I want to be. And three, the action words to be able to turn, go the other way, or turn and go to a different position. And that to me is also just the foundation of apology. When we come to not only apologize to your kids, but also apologizing to friends,

apologizing to your spouse. It's not just the, hey, sorry I did that. Yeah. It's also the next time. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. Do you find that in your, I'm going to say in your profession of singer-songwriter, your albums are awesome. I was listening the other day. It was like the problem still the same. You know. The promise is the same. Yes, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The promises, yeah. The problems are still the same too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's prophetic. New song. New song coming out.

The problem's still the same. Yeah, I mean, stuff's awesome. Yeah, thank you, bro. Here is, I want to move kind of into this area of how do you as somebody who has looked to, who has a public image, public profile, also a very personal at home, marry 19 years, five kids. You have a lot. You have a lot of on you at home.

You have a lot on you publicly professionally. When you wrote in the song, Reckless Love came out, and you had so much controversy, I would say, and you can tell me if that's not the right word, of just the word reckless. Yeah. How do you defend your position without getting defensive? Yeah.

Or may ask it differently, how How can you defend your position without compromising? Sure, sure. I think conviction and identity are everything. Conviction is knowing what you believe fully. And for me, specifically with that song, I lived that song. I was the piece of garbage that deserved nothing that was out doing A, B, and C since I was a kid,

saying I was following God. And he found me in that place. While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me. Amen. Like that was my position. And so I knew and I had lived the reality of that song. Therefore, the conviction of it was inside of me. It was birthed from that place.

And then identity, knowing who I am in God, you're unoffendable at that point. And I think maintaining that position in your heart and your mind, making those two line is the difficult part sometimes. I know in my heart, in my spirit, who I am. I'm a child of God. I'm a son of God. You can't touch me, you know? I'm unoffendable because of that. Say what you need to say. Say what you want to say. It does not hurt me. I know who I am. But getting your head to align with that when you're seeing comments about, you know, you fill in, you name the thing, you fill in the blank,

is like, okay, help me reconcile these two realities. Help me stay in the place locked in. I'm a son of God. I'm untouchable. He loves me, therefore nothing else matters. Well, I got so many thoughts on that. Yeah, well, I don't want to rabbit trail. But identity is just staying locked in to who you know you are for me in Christ.

So I would see those comments. And honestly, most of the time I was unbothered. I was unbothered, most of the time. I think the times that it pissed me off was when it was Joe Blow, Baptist pastor from Florida, with that in his bio, you know, talking about saved by grace and then in the comments, what a queer, or how gay is this, or how soft.

That type of language from a professed pastor, a leader of a flock, you know, for, case and point, like from South Florida, and you're just like, what? Like, how is that happening? And so the flesh would come in and say, what a piece of garbage that guy is. He's not saved. Screw that guy. Destroy him on the internet.

Make an example of him. Call him out. You know, go to town. And I'm super like litigatory as well. I know that you're a lawyer. Litigious, yeah. Like, I just want to, I just want to tear someone apart. part via logic. Yeah. Just make them look so stupid. And I would have to go, wait a sec.

Well, what is that going to do for me? Especially on the internet, you're not winning anybody on the internet. You're just stooping to their level. Yeah. Condescending to that level and trying to operate in the same spirit. Spirit, you're not going to get anywhere with that. So the only thing that I wanted to do in that time when there was controversy over that specific lyric was explained. pastorally my position where I was coming from and go, this is why I said what I said. And then leave it there. I purposely never got into arguments in the comment section or via DMs or anything. People would, people still send me like hundreds of messages a day.

God's love is not reckless. And they're dead serious. I want to make sure it for anybody who does not know is it, was it just the title or was there a certain lyric within it or is it just? Yeah, yeah, that title, Reckless Love. And they would say you're calling God unthinking, basically. You know, reckless meaning, because most people's connotation, yeah, yeah, unintentional, careless, those types of things.

Because the connotation of the word is negative. Yeah, but that misses the point. It's completely, it's poetry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's low IQ, honestly, to miss the point. And I think I would love to be able to say things like that. Yeah, but I'm not going to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can think it. I can think it. That's 70 IQ behavior, bro. Like, but the truth is, again, I just wanted to explain it from my heart. Hey, this is where I'm coming from. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you probably haven't experienced it, to be honest with you. Yeah.

If you're going to freak out about a word, that to me is very religious. It's very form driven. It's rules driven. It's checking boxes. but there's no experience there. Paul talks about in Ephesians 3 that you would know the width, length, depth, and height of the knowledge of the love of God that passes knowledge.

Yeah, understanding. And when he says, understanding, sorry, yeah. When he says, no, he means experientially, that you would experience it, that you would feel it, that it would change you from the inside. And I think, if you've experienced that, you know where he found you, even if you're like, oh, I didn't sin that much.

I wasn't that bad. he didn't really have to do much, you're pretty bad. Yeah, you know, like, and he saved you in that place. And I think when you, when you feel that, when you experience that, all of a sudden you're like, dagum, I didn't deserve that. That was a pretty reckless use of whatever words you want to use there, time, energy, resources, like what he did, what we deserved and what he did are not commensurate. They're not lining up.

That is the incongruence of grace. Right. It just doesn't make sense. Which is why we need Jesus. Exactly. So, I mean, that's a long way of answering your question, but it was trying to stay rooted in conviction and identity, even when the flesh and the mind is telling me, destroy that idiot. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, right, right.

No, I think some people get kind of stuck in Pharisee thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, it's not the, and I feel like multiple times. every parable Jesus is saying, well, hey, that's, you've heard it this, that's not really, yeah, that's not really the point. Totally. Here. It's all about that right there. Exactly. It's

about, it's about the heart. How do you become unoffendable? I mean, I still get offended. The goal is undefendable, right? And I've been walking with God for a lot of years. What am I, I'm on 40 and I was 19, really, when I got saved. So a little over 20 years. Um, part of it for me truly is my personality. I just don't, I don't have a high regard for what most people think. And I think that's a gift. Um, you know, I don't know if you do like the whole anagram thing, but like eight on the anagram just want to rip things apart.

You're an eight. Just want to just crush every three. I'm a three. Three is achiever. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. Probably. Probably.

Probably. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think part of it is a, is a, is a, superpower that God created me with ever since I was a kid. Like I just wanted to break the molds. I don't care what people say. I don't care what people think. And I care what people I love.

If my wife came to me and said, I think you're an idiot, I'd be like, what? Yeah. Who you? What? That hurts. That hurts. With some random guy on the internet saying, I think you're dumb or you look stupid or I don't like your haircut, I'm like, I just can care less. But again, the unoffendable thing is, is always rooted in identity. I think of Jesus when he's coming off this 40-day fast, right? And he's in the wilderness. And all of a sudden the devil comes to tempt him. It's like, yo, come up here. I'll show you all these kingdoms. Just like jump off and let God take care of you and all this is yours. Yeah. And he goes, no, no, no. I know who I am. This is already mine. I don't need to listen to the voice of the accuser. And that's it is often it's the voice of the accuser through people yeah um through the internet through social

media whatever but jesus had full identity why because he had just had you know he has this encounter with the father where he comes up uh from is it being baptized i think and and the dove like alights upon his head and the voice from heaven the father goes this is my son in whom i'm well pleased yeah he's like i know exactly who i am you can't tempt me the kingdoms i don't need them you know like I don't need any of that garbage. Worship, I don't need it, I'm going to have it. You can't tempt me. You can't affect me.

I'm so locked in to who I am and what I'm created to do. I like the piece of what I hear you saying is it's knowing who has the right to have an opinion of you. That's exactly right. It's beautifully said. Perfectly said way better than me. No, no, no, it's great. No, no. I'm saying like, that's what I'm hearing.

I talk for 10 minutes and he's like, what I hear you saying is this. That's, that's my, that's good. That's your good, bro. Do you have, or I only know on anyogram, do you have a wing? They said like it's. So I don't. Like, when I take the test, it says eight. And everyone's always like, well, what's your wing?

I'm like, I don't know. I'm wingless. It's just like all there. Oh, gas. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what it is. Yeah.

All anger and passion. Exactly. They say I'm a three with a two wing. Yeah, yeah. My wife is a two. Yeah, mine says if a three with a two wing, it says I'm a charmer. Bro.

That sounds off. That sounds way off to me. That's facts. That doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound right. No, that's really. I think that is, I think that's right there in alignment of who do I say has a right to have an opinion of me.

That's sure they could have one, but that doesn't mean I've given you permission to. That's so good. Bro, if we could have that boundary. Yeah. Like if everyone on the internet could have that boundary, bro, it would be so much healthier. So much healthier. One of many.

It's a tough boundary to have. Yeah, one of many. I got a whole list. I got a whole list for the internet. But no, I can see how just the here you are having something that is, which you feel is spirit-led, God-breathed. Yeah. You're able to put something out and that kind of level of controversy come out of it. You were like, what? Yeah. I had to have been, that had to been really hard to not get really defensive.

Yeah. And by you just saying, hey, look, I'm just going to explain where my heart is. One time. Take what you like and leave the rest. That's that kind of mentality. But that also has to like, that has some mess with your head, too. It's weird. Like I didn't realize how ubiquitous the conversation was. Is God reckless? Is he not? Like, I didn't realize how intense of a quote unquote controversy it was.

I think mostly because I wasn't paying attention to it. Like my focus was just like do what I'm supposed to do. It wasn't literally till years later. Like maybe a year ago that I went, oh, people actually. have really strong polarizing opinions on this. And a lot of people still, to this day, think that I am heretical or a messenger from Satan or, you know, like these silly, silly things.

I didn't take them seriously at that time. And it wasn't until very recently that I kind of realized, oh, this is still hotly debated. Like, people still have, passion and sometimes aggression over this. And it almost like, it almost sullied the experience and the song for me for a moment where I went, wait a sec, like, this is crazy, like this is intense.

And what's wild is the whole time, it's still like, you know, for a long time, for a number of years, it was the most sung song in the global church, which is, is wild. Wild. That's wild. I think for like two or three years. Yeah. And that's incredible. Since then, you know, maybe now it's like the top 15 or something, most sung song. But I think I look at that and I go, how is it possible? Is it the vocal minority? Yeah. That's out there kind of still having these arguments that people will show me and bring to me? Or is it, it doesn't

make sense to me because it's still so sung. Like it's still so used and utilized. And the stories that I hear are so positive. And, you know, I thought about taking my life then I heard this song and I realized I was worth something. And I wanted to give my life to Jesus. Those types of stories, like those are a lot. I hear that a lot.

Or this changed my life. I heard this for the first time when I got saved. I went to youth camp and they played this song and I got saved. I felt the love of God for the first time. So I really don't even know how to reconcile, you know, the quote-unquote controversy with the gift that it is. You know, I don't even, it doesn't make sense to me. I just kind of go, God, you do what you do. And if people want to talk about it, they can talk about it. But yeah, I'm grateful. Well, yeah, to me, it's God saying, hey you just you write what I'm putting through you and then I'll take care of

I'll take care of what I'm supposed to take care of and the good thing about what we teach is arguments are cool if you have a different opinion on something it's about it's about the it's about the it's a chance to at least practice the if you have a different opinion on it cool I want you why don't you tell me I hear it got it yeah comes from we might agree or we might we might we might not I don't know if you never knew Yeah. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. You know that for you and your family, it's important of what you eat, but did you know that it's not just what you eat? It's also how those foods interact with your body. How are they happening and dealing

within your gut? Well, Tiny Health is a at-home gut health test. And so we've done it with our own children. That was incredible. So we were able to take this test, send off the results, and you get back a very custom analysis, really, of what the gut shows, what things were aggravating, or things were inflaming things, what was good for the gut? What happened with our kids of what are they eating, not just at the nutritional level, but also in the micro level of what's happening? So it was very informative, very helpful. If you know, not only for yourself or for your kids or people in your world, that this is something

they need to look at and they're having gut health problems. Look no further than Tiny Health. Right now they're offering their most aggressive offer of $50 off your first at-home kit. If you go to tinyhealth.com slash Jefferson, you'll get up to $50 off your first at-home gut health kit. It was helpful for us. I know it'll be helpful for you. And now let's keep going. I want to switch for a little bit too of public, not even public, but the aspect of thinking one thing and needing to turn and how conversations can create a shift in a total different shift in your life. And specifically the, what I understand it be, a very kind of public disagreement that happened. Yeah.

Between you and another. artist. His name's Forrest Frank. Forrest Frank. I don't know Forrest personally. And I am, I would love for my listeners to hear kind of this story. Yeah. Because it would be a disservice for me to tell it. And then I want to piece apart, you know, a little bit of the, I think, are some really deep, meaningful lessons. Yeah. To be said in ownership and a part. and new direction and allowing hard conversations to turn into something really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, man. So I found myself rather jaded, cynical, a bit disenfranchised from the church. What years is?

Year and a half ago. Yeah. So whatever year that is, I'm bad at that. Yeah, who really knows somewhere in the 20th century. Can we just get out of COVID? Yeah, it's like that. Somewhere around there. Yeah, just seeing everything I saw, yeah, I just found myself frustrated, I think, and my answer to frustration of that sort is to be very public and very vocal about it. I'm not the guy who's going to, like, you know, sit with it quietly because I want to fix

everything. Like, that's my personality. I want to, I want to rend everything to the ground and then try to build it back up properly. And so I found myself, uh, I'm a very like sarcastic, biting type of personality naturally and I'm learning to be more gentle like we talked about earlier. But a lot of like satire because I find the quickest way to make your point is not often to have a two hour podcast. But if you can do, you get what I'm saying. Like, I'll make this podcast wish word you're going. Yeah, okay. Clip it up, clip it up.

Clip farm the sucker. You can do it in 30 seconds by poking fun at something. You can make a really big point, often by implication, just by satirically, or is that the word satire, do satire, poking fun at something. And that was kind of my M-O. Like, I see all the things that are wrong. I can diagnose all the fault lines and all the things that are. kind of screwed up. And I don't necessarily have time to talk about them all long form. But I do have

time to make a funny video kind of poking fun at what I see is wrong. And often with feeling very mean-spirited because I was angry. Like I was very frustrated. So I'm doing a lot of that with regards to the church, with regards to the worship industry, with regards to the business of worship, because all those things were frustrating me. Yeah. And I see Forrest having this kind of thing happening where he breaks his back, the whole deal. He's got cameras everywhere. And I'm like, how does bro have a camera in every freaking room of his house and like outside?

He's got cameras outside. This is a video that he put out. Yeah, it's a video that he put out, breaking his back. And then he writes a song. Forrest also being another Christian artist. Yes, correct. Correct. Very prominent figure in the Christian music world right now.

So he breaks his back on camera and then is able to leverage that into a song, which is like viral. It's going big. And then what happens is a lot of people are kind of piggybacking and making fun. What song was it? God's got my back. God's got my back. Yeah, yeah. Good song. Catchy. Probably be stuck in your head after this.

Yeah, they're all catchy. They're all catchy. They're all catchy. That dirty dog. Yeah. So that song goes nuts. but then everyone's kind of piling on, like, I broke my leg, so I wrote, you know,

Crowder, David Crowder writes the song, I broke my leg, so, like, Todd's got my leg. I don't remember what the song was. This band The Figs is kind of dunking on Forrest and makes this song about lemonade. Yeah. And then Forrest, like... My kid's favorite song.

Oh, dude. Yeah. It's huge. That was like the last song that we'd play on the road, and it just went nuts every night. So that happens, and truly, those guys were kind of poking fun at Forrest. Yeah.

But Forrest goes, hey, let's do something together. Like, let's make lemons out of lemonade through this thing. And all of a sudden, I have the bright idea that I'm going to jump on as well. And I had just got a vasectomy. I got five kids. Yeah. Just got enough of a sex to me like two. Yeah.

Yeah. It is about time. You're exactly right. My wife had to make the appointment. Yeah. I got a good story on that later. But so I get a vasectomy. It's like two or three weeks before.

So I've got like footage for me on the table. you know, like, I'm an idiot. I'm just an idiot. And I have this bright idea, like, my injury to piggyback on Forrest Thing will be, yeah, me getting a vasectomy. That's my injury. And so I make this song. And you know what's funny? Like, I told someone this a couple weeks ago, I had, like, crazy energy on this song.

Like, I was getting bars. Like, I was coming up with lines and lyrics that I just couldn't even fathom. Like, the Holy Spirit was breathing on it. I'm dead serious, like in the funniest way. Like, I really feel like, oh, that's why I had such impetus to write this song because God was going to do so much through it. Yes. Like, it's weird to think in retrospect like that's, but I felt that in the moment. So I'm sitting there writing this vasectomy rap, which I don't rap.

Talking about a subject, most people don't write about it. No, they don't write about. I got so much flack for it in the best way. And I learned so much through it. So I post the song, or actually I have a team, two guys who run my social media for me at that time. I have a different team at this point. But I, my son's game, this is his first football game of the season. It was in like Knoxville or something.

And I actually get on a plane with a couple of buddies who happened to have a plane whose son is the quarterback of the team right now. and I turn my phone on airplane mode because we're flying. There's no Wi-Fi or anything. But they post it right before I leave. And they're like, all right, hey, it's up. And I'm like, okay, sick. And they're like, bro, this is going to do numbers. Like, it's going to go viral.

And I was like, whatever. They post it. I land. I forget to turn it off airplane mode. We have to go straight to the game. I'm not paying attention to anything. I'm so locked in. So we get back and we land.

It's like 1 a.m. We posted at like maybe 4 p.m. or something. I finally take my phone off airplane mode and it's just going nuts. Like and I don't know like I don't keep Instagram notifications but like all my texts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are like, bro, what have you done? Like this is so insane. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I can't believe you would post that. Good and bad. Some people are like, bro, it's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Yeah. And then some people are like, bro, I don't think you meant for it to do this. What it's doing? It's got like two million views in like four hours. and what I what my team says to me is hey like everyone in the comments thinks you're being like vitriolic like they think you're being really malicious and mean like you're just dunking on for us because you think he's an idiot and like you're you're you're being really mean hearted like that's what everyone thinks yeah and they're all piling on in the comments yeah we can't believe that he would leverage blah blah blah now you're almost responsible for yeah like I'm complicit of more in this whole thing you know

You know, and I'm like, truly being mean. Truly. Yeah. Like, all the angry people came out of the woodwork. You invited the conduit. Calling all mean people. I gave them all the platform, bro. Yeah, yeah.

And they were going off in the comments. And I was like, oh, geez. So I text Forrest on the way home. And I was like, bro, I didn't mean for it to do this. Like, truly, I was poking fun at you, obviously. But I did not mean for this to be like a whack forest kind of. kind of vibe like that's not what I was getting at. I'm really sorry for that. Like say the word and I'm taking it down and so I wake up the next morning it's like 10 a.m. or something I sleep

in and I get a text from him and it's a long text and he's like dude actually that really hurt my feelings like my family and I didn't know if I was ever going to walk again like my kids would cry thinking daddy is like, you know, paralyzed. Traumatic. Yeah, it's super traumatic. And my wife's crying every day going, am I going to have to like, you know, am I raising my kids with my husband in a wheelchair now? Yeah, yeah. This is intense.

I'm having to deal with that. So he's like, it was not a light thing in our family. Like you guys in the world might be taking it with a lot of levity, but it was, there was none of that for us. And he's like, that really hurt. And immediately I was like, man, I respect that. what did your respect the fact that he was honest yeah and said that hurt because as a man those aren't popular words you know that hurt that hurt yeah no one wants to say that hurt because that's vulnerable that's that can be perceived as weak yes or soft or all these things

that we as men don't want to be we want to be hard and impervious and tough and nothing hurts me nothing touches me and man like that took some good guts to say that hurt. That hurt my heart. That hurt my feelings. So I immediately I was like, I'm in. I'm in on this guy. And I knew him before. And we kind of, you know, he was kind of saying, I don't know, Corey. We had talked. He'd come out to a show mine in Waco. Like we hung. We had FaceTime. We talked about the year that I took off because he was considering doing the same. We weren't best friends. Yeah. But we were absolutely, we were but just not super close. So I'm just like I'm all in on this dude like that that took so much guts

I want to make sure that this is like a point so you hear from him of hey actually man this this did hurt me instead of coming after you said yeah this hurts but this is a this is a critical like point for you because you have options to make that is you could double down and say well sorry about you don't be such a pansy yeah exactly yeah look how many of you is done, yeah, or something so, or. Did you imagine? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sorry, man. It's getting a lot of views, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's printing views right now. I'm gonna let it roll. I'll take it down in a few weeks. Yeah, totally. Or what you ended up doing. Yeah, yeah, and the interesting, interesting thing to me is

I had literally had a very, very, very similar circumstance, about a month before, where, where something I said on the internet, because again, I'm very prickly. I'm just, that's how I've been. And I don't want to say, oh, that's who I am, so deal with it. That's not my point. Yeah. But I'm naturally a bit of a ruffler of feathers.

So I had this moment on the internet where I had said something about a different artist who happens to be the most popular Christian artist. There is. And his wife, someone else reposted it. And this artist's wife goes off in this other person. This is a girl that posted my thing, repost. That's so confusing. Oh my God. Yeah, that's good. So his wife responds to this person in their DMs, long DM.

I can't believe Corey would say those things. My husband wakes up every day hurt by him. He looks up to him so much. I can't believe that he would do all this type of thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Long DM. It happens to be. my front of house, his wife's best friend.

So he sent front of house like guy who wants down for me. Sends me the DM. Like, is there history here I need to know about? And I'm like, bro, no. Like this is crazy. What? So I immediately reach out to this person. And I'm like, dog, I am so sorry for any offense that I may have caused.

I truly am not aware of what it was that I have done. I want to apologize. I want to repent. I want to make it right. Please let me know and we can talk through this. Like I'm big on on communication. Like I'm big on getting it all out there. Because that's the only way we get healing. That's the only way we move forward. Also, you're really not afraid to say it. I know. And I think what happened is this other person's personality is a bit more reserved, a bit more passive. They're not a hash or outer. They're not. Not their type. So instead of saying, yeah, man, even via text, yeah, man, I've been a little bothered by some stuff that you've said or posted. And she probably went a little too far, but like, I have felt that. Goes, my wife is crazy.

I don't know why she said those things. She's been a little off lately, but I don't feel that way at all. Love you, love you, bro. And I'm like, what? Yeah. Like, what? This is this long of a DM to a random person. That's how passionately you felt about it to send it, but you're gonna dismiss it like it never, like it's not a thing.

And so I was just like, that's really crappy to me. And so I'm like, I don't really wanna associate with that person. Like I'll mess with that type of behavior. So Forrest does the exact opposite. the exact opposite spirit, the exact opposite heart, goes low in humility, full vulnerability, full transparency, that hurt. That won me immediately. I was just like, dude is real.

Like, bro is a real one. Like, he's not messing around. And so he goes, yes, it hurt. Don't take it down, though. I'll call you in a few minutes. It's all right. He calls and he goes, hey, Thank you for reaching out like I forgive you. I get it. I get what you're doing

Yeah everyone else is doing it does it hurt. Yes. Yeah it does he goes but I think there's an opportunity Number one for healing here mm-hmm, but number two for this to be displayed on a public level that actually brings about the same level of healing that you and I are going to experience through this and I And I was like, what? Like, dang, that's crazy. And he goes, what you don't know is, no, I don't even need to say that. I was just like, dude, that's incredible. Tell me what you got in mind.

And he's like, you make a video basically saying like, hey, dude, I'm sorry. I'll make a video first that's like, hey, this kind of hurt, bro. but we'll work it out in real time, but for the public and the internet to see. And he's truly like one of the most brilliant social media minds that I've ever met, ever. Like that's fully his superpower. And the level of healing and restoration that I saw through that whole exchange, on the internet was wild. I had people coming up to me everywhere I went. Dude, I saw what happened with you in Forrest. It's so touched my heart. I called my pastor. I called my mom. I called my

cousin who I was offended by. I called my old worship leader who, you know, fired me from the platform. Wow. And told them that it hurt and we worked through it. How that got used? Yes. To bring healing. Yes. Not just to you two. Yeah. But to thousands of people you had, dude you can never ever meet can't quantify it yeah like it was it was crazy everywhere i went random people bro i saw that exchange man that meant so much to me i decided to go and talk to blah blah blah and we worked it out i was just like what that's crazy it was it was really wild um yeah so i i don't know like i don't know if there's more i need to to say on all that but like that's the way it went down it was very real how it happened

He was hurt. I was being a tool. Like, you know, honestly, full transparency. I was being a jerk. And also, like, a tool to get something, like, without you knowing it, actually a tool for a lot of good. God uses even the wildest of donkeys. And then you'll put out a song. Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. I mean, the fruit from it is.

What was the name of the song? It was called Misunderstood. Yeah. And I ended up. up going out there to say he was living in san diego at the time and i went out there for i think like eight or nine days and we just hung out we just surfed in the morning hung out all day and uh the healing that the lord did in my heart in that nine days would be impossible to communicate if i had years, I think. Like, I was so frustrated and so jaded and so pissed off at everything. And

the Lord used forest to soften my heart and to bring me back to what I'm really made and called to do, which is be a worshipper. You know, I was running from all that. And I think of it like, like Hagar in the Bible. And she, you know, she was running. She was halfway back to Egypt, if you know the story. She'd been mistreated. And she goes, I'm not down with this. I'm leaving. And halfway back to Egypt, God finds her and says, I'm the God who sees. I saw all that. I saw that you were mistreated through the reckless love thing. I saw that you were mistreated through this and that. And people had so much to say about, you know, I'm obviously applying it to my own life now. I saw it. But he doesn't go. And here's a pass. Yeah, just keep going to Egypt. Forget all that you're

called to do. Forget your job, forget your calling. You know, just, just run back to your safety and your comfort. He goes, no, I saw it all and guess what? Go back to your abusers. Yeah, yeah. Go back to that family. Birth the child. Do what you're supposed to do because that's what I've called you to do. Were you offended? Were you hurt? Were you wronged? Absolutely a thousand percent. That's real. Everything that you experienced was real. And I saw it. I'm not dismissing it, but I'm also not giving you a pass, go back. And that's what he said to me, go back. You have an inheritance there in that, in that sphere of influence that I created you for.

And put away the offense. Get back to that unoffendable heart and space, you know. And it was because of forest humility, transparency, his purity. The way that he operates in that space is just, it's really beautiful. So I could talk about that for a long time But let's just let that be enough No, that's awesome stuff And so now

To bring that full circle You went from Heading in a direction that Like you said, felt jaded And And through this experience You've now said, hey, I'm going to feel like I'm coming back

Back to the table Where I know this has been my place Yeah for me So to me There's like so many beautiful things through this of not just the reality. I'm waiting for you to give me like the 10 seconds.

Yeah, this is where I go. What I hear you saying is. Yeah, exactly. Before we continue, I want to take a moment to tell you about, you know what, cozy earth. Right now, we are in the season of fall here. You can feel the temperatures come in. Maybe temperatures are dropping where you are. I hope so.

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I wear them all the time, especially in airports when it's freezing or anywhere the doctor's office or wherever you're going. CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson. Used to go Jefferson to get up to 25% off CozyEarth.com slash jeff And now let's keep going. Through this experience, what have you learned about how to respond when you're in the wrong? Humility is always the answer. Every time.

Humility wins your brother or your sister every time. Arrogance puffs up in pride and God says, I resist the proud, but I give grace to the humble. willingness to admit you're wrong takes so much humility you know especially for a guy like me who I just want to win that is so much of my my drive because of the way that I was brought up

I always felt like I was less than my dad was you know you're pathetic you're this you're that a lot of you know that type of talk in the house not a lot of I'm proud of you I love you so I've got this this sort of fleshly insatiable drive

to win, to be able to say, I dominated that. It flies in the face of our flesh to go, hey man, that was really wrong of me to do. To lower yourself, to come under and admit that you are wrong. It takes so much humility, but it is the path forward. It's always the path forward. That's the way of Jesus. Winning is never the point. Yeah.

I mean, if he wanted to win, he'd have called down some angels and he'd have flown off the cross and gave everyone the finger. Yeah. Sorry. He'd have flown off the cross and, you know, told everyone to, this is what's up. Yeah. But he didn't. His way of winning was death. Yeah.

Death on a cross. He conquered death. And that is always the answer, I think, in any conflict, own what you can own. Don't make crap up. Yeah. know, don't be like, oh, well, I'll pretend like I was wrong for this and that. Search your heart. Ask God to search your heart.

Find what you can what you can own and own it. Communicate it. Yeah. You know, that's everything. That wins a brother every time. When you are the person that's in the wrong, how do you go from, I could make an excuse in the balance of, or I could own this fully? Yeah. And what have you learned between those two?

I find that I'm always in the wrong, first of all. It's typically my fault, which I'm fine with. I'm kind of an idiot sometimes. I don't know, man. I don't know how to... Let me ask it differently. What do you say to yourself when you're tempted to make an excuse? So a lot of the time I feel like I want to defend myself?

Right? And here in this moment, you could have said a lot of things to defend yourself. Yeah. To forest or in any other situation, to other friends. friends saying, well, he's just being, like I compare this. The reason why I like this story, it's because it's a wonderful example of how you do something thinking it's lighthearted, and it's really not going to offend the other person. Well, the other person does get offended. Yeah. And thankfully, they're maybe honest enough to go, hey, that hurt. And then you're left

with that choice of do you say what a lot of people love to say, and that is, well, that's your problem. right totally i love to say well that's deal with it yeah then that's that's that's that's your problem here what through this beautiful lesson an example is the power of being able to stop and say i own my part in this uh i'm going to take accountability for my part in this yeah and though i could make an excuse and there are many available to me. Yeah. I'm going to choose to say, hey, this is my problem too. Yeah.

I think I always ask myself the question, why do I feel the need to make an excuse? And to me, the answer is almost always to save face. Self-preservation to make myself look good. If I don't want to own this, it's because I don't want either that person to see me as wrong or stupid or, you know, inadequate or whatever. Or I don't want an audience.

to see me as wrong inadequate. But I think when you lose ego or you let your ego die, you go, it actually doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It doesn't even matter if that person judges me and thinks, well, they were pretty wrong. Like, that was pretty stupid of them to be wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't matter. But that, I'm always asking myself, like, what's the motive?

Why am I doing this, right? And if I'm trying to, to make excuse me, I'm going, why am I, why do I want to make excuses for this? Why wouldn't I just own the fact that I did something wrong? And typically it's because it's going to make me look dumb. I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to look like I lost. I like that one.

I don't want to look like I lost. I don't want to look like I lost this. But the truth is, losing is not the end. That's not the end of the story. That's not the end of this particular circumstance. Losing led to everything for me. Yeah. And I'm very much like an ascetic, A.S.

ascetic, A-S-C-E-T-I-C. Pain produces. Pain turns us into what we should be. Suffering creates so much beauty. You need resistance. You need resistance. Go out into the woods and live alone and learn to live well. Comfort often stagnates. Comfort keeps us from who we really should be creating character inside of us. Yeah. You know, we're working this, this eternal weight of glory is what the Bible calls it through trials and tribulations. And this admitting that we're wrong is just another one of those circumstances where we can go, that was difficult. That was not easy, but I'm the type of guy who wants to hit it head on. Yeah. Like, that's the way I live. I want to hit it head on.

And I want to deal with it because if I don't, it's just, you know, offense and bitterness has the shelf life of a twinkie. Yeah. Like, they're never going away until you deal with them. Right. So I want to hit it head on, especially when I'm wrong. I don't want that person sitting there dealing with my offense because I was unwilling to, you know, go low in humility and apologize. Yeah. Man, what you said, I really love, and that is I didn't want to look like I lost.

Yeah. I find that to be so true in arguments. that continue to push when somebody's refusing to put it down, refusing to give that point. They don't want to look like they lost. They don't want the perception that they lost. I want to feel like they lost. And if more people, myself included, my goodness,

if when instead of seeing it as, you know, as something to lose as something to learn, then you provide space and opportunity for, I mean, your world would not be where it is right now. Had you hardened your heart and said, no, I'm not going to look like I lost. I took an L on this one. Totally.

I'm going to. But here, you said, instead, you said, I did take a NL on this one. Yeah. Here is the ways that I can do that. And so, you know, the, what would be the, what have you found to be the power

of accepting the losses? Man, self-acceptance. really I think when when your goal or when you're wiring is only to win obviously we don't win every battle right we don't want to yeah yeah yeah like I used to think I would get down on myself I beat myself up if I got like a parking ticket what an idiot like I can't believe I'd park there what I'm so stupid man I lost you know I'm gonna fight this I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna fight this like yeah I'm gonna fight this like There's I shouldn't have gotten this ticket. They should understand that I needed to be in and out, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's that type of thinking, but it's all internal for me. It's always, um, my own critic on the inside because I don't know about you, but I'm my own worst critic for sure.

Yeah. I'm so much harder on myself than anyone else. And obviously I'm so much more well acquainted with my own weakness. Yeah. And, and faults than anybody else. You know, yeah. Where I'm way more, uh, yeah. easy to bite the hand.

Absolutely. So I don't know, man. It's like when I can come to grips and be okay with losing or looking like I lost. Honestly, it's all perception for me. Is that person or that group going to think that I look like I lost, like I look dumb? Then I can just go, you know what, man? I'm living for the first time. Like, this is my first time being alive.

I need to give myself some grace. Yeah. You know, the way that I think about my 16-year-old boy, when I'm in the spirit, meaning when I'm in the good place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not angry. I'm not frustrated. He can't lose.

There's nothing he could do. That would frustrate me so much that I'd be like, you know what, buddy? Like, you're done. You're not my kid anymore. You know what? I don't really love you. I don't love you anymore. Can you imagine?

Yeah, no. Like, that's an insane thought to me. That's so far from reality. But I'm trying to learn to think of myself the same way and extend myself the same kindness and gentleness and grace because I'm going to lose. And I get frustrated and I get anxious about silly things, dumb things, you know, but extending myself grace when I'm scared that I can't find a parking spot in downtown Nashville. Because that's the dumb stuff that I get worried about or feel like. It's also very stressful. It is a little stressful.

Yeah, yeah. Let's put that out there. Okay, it is a little stressful. But it's like, you know, if I don't get the prime spot or if I haven't done the, you know, the thinking ahead to buy the spot or to get the parking or to have the right seat. It's not as easy as I want it to be. Yeah. Then I'll be like, I'm beating myself up. But when I can accept that I'm not perfect, that I don't have it all together, that I don't have all the answers, that I'm often wrong.

Yeah. That I often lose. then that's so much better of a place to live rather than constantly self-flogging. You know, like self-flagellation, like Starlet Letter type vibes. It's like, no, I am an idiot. Yet God shows me grace. Yet God loves me, calls me as kid. I can think of myself that same way.

And I can operate within my own mind and heart, hopefully, that same way. Yeah. Man, Corey, I've really, really enjoyed just hearing your heart, man. Definitely giving me a lot to think of and think on in all areas of fatherhood and beyond. And man, thank you so much for being willing to share that story and have that as an example for all of us and the right way to communicate. Thanks for coming on me. Absolutely.

Appreciate it, bro.