The Jefferson Fisher Podcast - Why Honesty Earns More Respect Than Agreement ft. Ben Bruno

Episode Date: August 14, 2026

What if being more direct actually made people trust you more? My friend Ben Bruno has spent years training some of the most recognizable people in the world, and one of the things I appreciate most about him is that you always know where he stands. In this episode, we talk about how to give an honest opinion without being a jerk, why people respect you more when you stop telling them what you think they want to hear, and how to adjust the way you communicate depending on who’s in front of you. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson  Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: David. Subscribe and save 10% on every order’ at https://davidprotein.com/jefferson  Our Place. Visit https://fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show!  Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter.  Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube  Follow me on Instagram  Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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People trust you more when you tell them no. I would say people trust you more when you tell the truth. When people are coming to you for your opinion, it's very important. important to give a clear opinion. Dude, it's so good to see you. This is awesome. Yeah, the fact that you're here, um, I have to tell people how you and I even met because this is, I guess to me, the epitome of social media.

Well, the actual social part. Yeah, the social part. I see you on Instagram and like, oh, this guy's cool. I like fitness. I want to see what he's about. And then. I started following you and I was like, he gets really great fitness advice.

And then you followed me back. And then it was like, hey, bro, hey bro. It's like, I like your stuff. And then we've known it. We've been friends. I'm just listening because I want to hear your story. Then I'll share my version of your story. Right.

Well, that's my version. And it was like, hey, I like your stuff. Hey, I like your stuff too. And then the next time I was going shortly after, I was going to LA to do a bunch of podcast tours for the first time. And I thought, well, I could hit him up and just say what's up to hang out. Your version of a hangout is let's go work out.

Just lift. Yeah. And so I was I was I was pumped and then we've been we've been friends ever since. Well, you're one of the my only friends I've met through social media. Nice. I actually feel as somebody who participates in social media but kind of lives my life in the real world and then just does social media, I feel like it should be called anti- social media because I feel like most of it's just negative and all that type of stuff. But I remember

it that because you have a lot of followers, whenever you followed me, it like popped up, you know, Jefferson Fisher follows you. So I click. And then I'm like, oh, that's the guy that talks in his car that pops up all the time. Yeah. I tend to gravitate towards people that aren't highly produced. And then you wrote to me about the workouts. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, by the way, like nice car videos. I like that. You give some good, good tips. And then when we lifted, do your podcast listeners know you're Jack?

Do you ever podcasters your shirt off? We keep that secret. I'm actually, if I were, you should just like, always podcast with your shirt up. But you came over one time and started benching the hundreds. And I was like, actually, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but from the neck up with like the side part, you kind of don't. strike me at a workout guy, no offense.

Oh my God. Because you're like, you're like, you're like a nerdy lawyer. Yeah, he just is nice. And then you just start benching the hundreds. And then I remember

things got real about halfway in because you're like, oh, I can't sweat through my shirt because I have a podcast. Yeah. You take your shirt off and I'm like, you definitely did that on purpose because I have 10 pack abs. Yeah.

But cool, cool. Yeah. Like, because I'm somebody, I have like work. I have friends and I have workout friends that I don't even like them that much, but they can lift my weights. So I'm like, we'll be friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh, he's cool and he lifts my kind of weights.

Right. Like, now it's like that stepbrothers. Right. Let's go do karate in the garage. We just become best friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no, we don't. We don't. I do not share my fitness. You should. Yeah. If I were you on this podcast, you should just be like ripping curls. We should. Just a shirtless podcast.

Talk about communication. Yeah. Yeah, no. We, uh... And then I also want to give your wife flowers because she came to lift. The next time we came to visit. You're like a beast and also like probably the second strongest in your own household. So that was cool. Yeah.

So... Sierra, Sierra surprised you. Yeah. So, uh, anyways made a beer. Yeah, dude. Little no fact. Yeah, we definitely, um, like to exercise around the Fisher House. but I always find that so hilarious because the time that I went, you were so surprised.

You're like, oh, you could try this little weight. And then as it went up, you're like, geez. And so then we begin, you're like, okay, now we can really be friends. I mean, dude, I bet you hearing this, your podcast listeners will 100% be surprised. Yeah. Because I'm telling you, if you see the video where you're like, hey guys, like here's three ways to communicate better, like that guy usually doesn't bench the hundreds. Right. Yeah, yeah. The dumbbells, the dumbbells. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a good time. And then for Sierra to come and surprise you because she's militant with her strength. So that's awesome. The fact that I get to have you here, man, was just a blessing. Not just because you're a personal friend, Ben. And congratulations on to you and Nicole on your beautiful baby. Beautiful baby, healthy. baby boy. Shout out the bow. That's shout out to Bo.

Hopefully when he's, he hears this when he's older, he'll appreciate that. Is to me, man, you are not only one of the most genuine guys, the most direct communicators I've ever come across in my life. Also third, I find you to be, which the listeners will get into more as we go, the hidden gym of how people can think in improving their health and fitness in a way that's not over glamorized. That's not, you know, something that is genuine to both your personality and to the goals of what most people have. So I want to, I want to hit first this idea. By the way, thanks.

Yeah, of course. Super nice. I, I, where I want to take us first. You train some of the most well-known people in the world, and you often have to also be willing to tell them no. How do you tell somebody no when they either have high ego or have a very high feeling of there's somebody who feels like they know everything? I truly believe that training is one of,

life's greatest and only equalizers in the sense that if you're super rich, if you're super famous, a lot of rules don't apply to you. You can cut the line. You can get tickets to something that's sold out. You can fly privately and avoid that. You can take helicopters to avoid traffic. You can do whatever. But if you eat bad, you're going to gain weight. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get stronger. And truthfully, most of my strongest, fittest friends don't come from much. And because you don't have to be good in the gym. And so when I moved to L.A. and started training the people that I do, I come from New Hampshire, by the way. I come from a town of less than a thousand people. So people frequently tell me that I seem unfazed by celebrity. And that's actually

not true. I'm very phased by it. It's kind of a crazy to me. And my, average day is kind of wild to me, the people that I see. But and I'm very appreciative of talent. So I, you know, you'll hear people say like, celebrities are just like everyone else. And I'm like, not really. They're way more talented than most people in at least one way. And that's why they're where they're at.

But you have to remember that I deal with people in an arena where it's not their specialty, but it's my specialty. it's inverted a little bit. You know, I've trained a lot of people that I'll tell you I was a huge fan of before. And I was a huge fan of their movies, for example. I was a huge fan of their music, or I'm a big sports fan. The people that I watched on TV. But, you know, the guy who's famous for movies is not an expert at training. And, you know, and so they're actually coming to me for the help. And I very much struggle with confidence in my. most areas in my life, but I'm very confident in the confines of the gym. And so that has really

helped me. And then I've also learned that people at the highest level still want, they come to me to improve their health and fitness. So when you say, is it hard to say no, it is in some ways? And it's, you know, it's a different conversation than you asked. It's quite hard for me sometimes to draw personal boundaries and stuff with my clients. But in terms of training, It's very simple. You know, to many people, these are people that they look up to idolize. And sometimes I do too. But in the confines of fitness, I'm just giving them tips.

And, you know, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't tell them they're doing it wrong. You know, I'll never forget. I've trained Justin Timberlake for like 12 years. And about a year into training, I went to some social thing that he was at. usually i don't really hang out with my clients socially and he introduced me to somebody and he was really complimentary and he goes oh dude ben's my guy he's the best trainer like he like really corrects your form and i was waiting for him to say something else and then that was it was like he corrects my form and i remember in the gym the next day saying like dude not for nothing but like

it's a pretty low bar if all i had to do is correct your form and he's like oh yeah dude like a lot of People just kind of like want to be my friends who they don't really correct my form or tell me I'm doing it wrong. Yeah. Just thinking, how stupid. Like, you're coming to me. Yeah. You want to know if you're doing it wrong. You know?

Right, right. I trained a really famous pitcher once. And his previous trainer was like, this guy will never go all the way down on squats. Like, he'll never go all the way down. The first time I trained him, I sent the coach a video of him going all the way down on squats. And he called me back. And he's like, how the hell did you get him to go all the way down on squats? I was like, well, I told him you're not going all the way down.

You know, and it's just very, you know, like you just weren't. Yeah. So he did. Like he wanted to do it well. But nobody's going to very few people, unless you're like a gym head, want to take like the path of most resistance. They want to take the path to least resistance. But unfortunately, you know, I always say the hard exercises you hate doing are the ones that work.

And truthfully, in the gym, it's like, you know, if you take the path of least resistance, probably not getting very far. What I hear when how you have found to tell people no or have that confidence to tell people no is one, you have a very high confidence in your particular thing. And you know that area to the better than anybody else. One, two is these are people that are coming to you who want you in some ways to tell them no. Like there is, I think, and this would be the third point of that people trust you more when you tell them no. So I guess I would, I would, I would pose it that way. I would trust you more

when you tell the truth. Tell me about that. Because I don't think, when you say no, I just want to kind of not push back, but clarify, I guess, that. I'm not this militant guy that's yelling at people because I am a very voluntary service. I always say that I've made a living selling a service that people don't like very much. Yeah. And so I actually do my best to make something that people don't really enjoy be at least somewhat palatable. So I don't try to be a hard ass intentionally because I don't, first off, I don't think anybody would want to work out. consistently if you were so it's it's not know so much as telling them if they're doing it incorrectly

or as just saying you know what you're doing isn't the best for you yeah pushing back but one thing about me is i'm a trainer that really i very much believe in meeting people where they're at and so i have some clients that eat a lot better than me and track their food and live and die by their workout schedule And I have some clients that party and eat bad. And I believe regardless of how you live the other 23 hours of your life, it's still healthier to exercise. So not, you know, I'm not the type of person that you have to be a gym head or I'm going to confront you. Right.

To be honest. So there's not a lot of no in the sense of I actually try to work with people's likes and dislikes because I think for long term, sustainability you have to like it to some degree but where i say no is a lot of times clients will want to do an exercise that i know will piss off their injuries and then that's a hard no or they'll want to do some stupid workout they saw on social media and i'll have to say sorry that's stupid you know that type of thing right and i that's pretty easy for me to say no because that's why they're there right i think I learn a lot about being a communicator and being a trainer from seemingly unrelated fields. Like I remember one time I had to replace the ACEVAC system at my house.

And I got the first guy that came in for a quote came in with his binder. And he gave me five different units I could get. And it was like they were priced all over the map from like five grand to like 50 grand. and he was just telling me the pros and cons of every HVAC system. And as somebody who doesn't know anything about HVAC systems, he gave this whole talk and I was just sort of like, and then at the end I was like, so like which one should I get? And he was like, well, it really depends on your likes and dislikes and goals.

And I'm like, dude, I don't know anything about this. He left and I'm like, all right, we got to call someone else. The next guy came in and he was like, hey, there's this model that's like cheap. It might do the job. but like then there's this one that's a little more expensive and but it'll last you longer and I'm like cool done and then I just thought that's how I should train because I'm training I train people that don't live for the gym they have the level of care that I have for my age fact system they just want to be told what to do and I'm somebody that eats and breathes training I

am a closet nerd I read research reviews about emerging strength and conditioning research but I learned train people that don't give a shit about that and just want to be fit feel good. And so if you were a fly on the wall and in my gym, trainers would think that I don't really understand training that well because I speak in a very simple way. I kind of talk like a bro and it's intentional because I don't think people want to train with a science nerd the same way I didn't want that guy's PowerPoint on HVAC systems without a clear recommendation. Most of my clients, that I've had for a long time, we never even talk about training at this point.

We just come in, I show them something, tell them how many reps to do, and we just talk about life. This episode is sponsored by David. I don't know about you, but I am trying throughout my day to find pockets of the day that I can eat more protein. And it's not that easy, but what has made it so much easier

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workout goals like me, look no further than David. Right now, you can go to Davidprotein.com slash Jefferson. And when you buy four cartons, you get the fifth one free. And you can go to Davidprotein.com and find a retailer near you. Davidprotein.com slash Jefferson. You said, go Jefferson, get your fifth carton free. And now let's keep going. I was really pleasantly surprised when I went over to your gym the first time,

which, by the way, the garage gym is not big. You know, it's incredibly tiny, smaller than this living room. And I wouldn't say it even has that many pieces of equipment. But I will say it's been one of the best workouts I've ever gotten. But I think that has a lot to do with what you just said, comparing that to the HVAC system. We all know what that's like when you go into a store and maybe you want to get, I don't know, I went and got a new pair of running shoes and went to one of those that were they like, check out your feet and like take a scan or whatever and they brought me all kinds of recommendations and i just need you to tell me what's for this kind of mileage this kind of shoe and i couldn't get

that answer and so that was really frustrating i think the overarching lesson here because i like to frame things to use your knowledge to help somebody in everyday situations and so it's if you can be really really direct about the recommendation for whatever it is, whatever your answer is, because people like the minimizing choices. And I also think they like firm responses. I think they like firm responses. I think you did that because you were really good at little tweaks to form, being consistent. You were very good at reading the body of what seems to be straining, what doesn't seem be straining and it's this kind of very big contrast of people think in if we use fitness for example you you have to do all this stuff because there's just it can be incredibly overwhelming if you

google how do i lose five pounds right you'll just see the just huge stuff well but in here what i know your methods to be is actually there's some pretty simple things that you can it doesn't have to be that complex like we're very good at over-complicating things and i feel like that's the same way in communication we can over-complicate over-explain over-justify when the answer is usually something very simple that can make a big meaningful adjustment i think social media has significantly over-complicated fitness Because I think that the people that disseminate the info continually try to reinvent and reinvent and reinvent the wheel to have stuff to talk about. And as a lifelong trainer who now the last couple of years has participated in the online world, I really struggle because I feel like the prescription is pretty simple. but I sit there and think how many times can I say this and you know I might you feel stressed to put a little

something on the basics to make it sound better and you know I believe at the same time you know if I get a high level athlete that only has two months to get in shape I'm not going to do any of that I do all the basic stuff so then I've kind of made a business off saying that but then I feel it's not always built for social media because how many times can you just say do the basics and consistency and stuff but that's truly it i know that on top of all of your clients you also train the trainers you coach the coaches yeah what would you say are your top three things that you tell these other fitness coaches or other trainers are some of the most important things to to do when you're kind of passing on that information first i always remember that the person

part of personal training refers to them not you second almost everyone that gets into training does so because they're obsessed with fitness but trainers have to realize the people that hire trainers aren't obsessed with fitness so you got to keep it simple right three because those people aren't obsessed with fitness uh simple always wins complex solution look better in social media, they might make you sound smarter, but for people to actually stick to it, simple always wins. And I think that fitness people that like to work out try to do as much as they possibly can. So, you know, I'll see online people that work out five, six, seven days a week, and they have these really complicated workout splits. And they're always going to be fit. But

they could look and they could look the exact same and be just as shrunk if they did have that and probably have a little bit better life way better life and so the people that i train are the type that are interested in doing the least work for the most result is that your intention with how you communicate with your clients too that simple always wins so so i i always say practicality trumps perfection and i don't train a single client that works out with me on a that schedule. So a lot of my training philosophy is based on the logistics of my situation. And that, you know, I might see someone on a Monday and say, what's the rest of our week like? And it's like, well, I don't know yet. So for example, we do almost exclusively full body workouts,

which I do for both practical and results driven reasons. I think, you know, for the physique and goals that most regular people have, which is to look lean, but not crazy, lean, muscular-ish, but not jacked. You know, people hate the word tone, but we all know what it means. And to be fit, but they're not great, like fitness people too often great results based on how much weight can you lift on certain exercises where most people that go to the gym don't care. They just want to be strong and have it and be able.

able to be active and participate in life at a high level. So to do that, you don't have to give your life over to the gym. Yeah. But I think that fitness people just like to. So they, you know, they try to cram as much into it, which I actually think I've become a, I've been a trainer for 20 years now. And when I first started, I was obsessed with working out. And I've got gradually less and less obsessed to the point that a lot of times I don't even like it. And I feel like that has made me an infinitely better trainer to most normal people because my goal is to kind of do the bare minimum and still get the result now, whereas it used to be to do as much as I could because I liked it and it was kind of my

mental outlet. And I've experienced my own burnout from fitness. And I think that's made me much more relatable to my clients because I think that we share the same goals, which is wanting to look pretty good, feel pretty good, perform pretty good, don't really care to do things at a crazy high level. And I don't want to have to do this more than two to three days a week. To be honest. This might be one to chew on for a little bit, but I am curious of what you'd think. If there was one word that you'd have to describe your communication, and how you speak to your clients.

Where do you think they would say? Honest. And the only reason I'll say that, you said direct, I say honest. JT is one of my longest clients. He also was part of my best man speech at my wedding. And he said verbatim, Ben is the most honest guy I know. And so I can live with that. And by the way, that's not a total compliment.

It's kind, you know what I mean? That's why when you said, you know, Ben's direct. I said, is that a backhanded? No. Because I think honesty is obviously a good quality. Right. But I think that I struggle sometimes to, like, you know, there's times that brutal honesty is not the best policy. Yeah.

You know? Right. For sure. So I, but I would say that people would say I'm honest, which I can live with, you know, like, but I do want to clarify that that's not a way. 100% positive. Right. Well, that was said sort of as a joke, too. Just the way you said direct, like, yeah. You know, like when you say direct in the context of a podcast, it makes me look good. Well, because I do think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm saying like, you know, we go to dinner later with my other friends and you guys make fun of me for being direct. It's kind of like, you know,

sometimes you can be too direct. Well, uh, and so that's the nuance of communication. Yeah. Yeah. I would say at least how I relate to it, you know, being direct and being honest are not the same thing. And that you can say something, you can say a lie very directly and that's not, and that's not honest. Yeah, yeah, totally. Though I will say people who are direct and how they communicate tend to earn the reputation of honesty because, it might be to where it's hey look you always know where this person stands yeah and there are other people who might sugarcoat who might always give the politically correct answer and you know there's there's a spectrum of how direct you can be you're somebody who communicates i'd say on that

far end of very direct and that earns that that idea of well it could hurt but at least i know it's he's being honest with it and I think that has to work towards your favor in an area like fitness when you're training the high level type of you know very high profile clients that you have because they need that level of honesty because my guess is there are people in their lives that are not being that honest with them yeah and uh I think So I used to train a woman who very famous actress, and I'm still a fan of her, but I haven't trained her for like 10 years. And she sent me a message on Instagram a couple weeks ago. My wife knows her too, and she's a fan.

We love her stuff. And she goes, hey, I got a question for you. What do you think of the vibration plate? I'm thinking about getting one, but is it bull-shund? I know you'll shoot me straight. And I was just like, yeah, it's bullshit. But if you like it, go for it. And my wife was like, I can't believe that you said that.

And I was like, why? Like, that you literally asked me. And then the woman replied and was like, ha, ha, I love that. I can always count on you to shoot straight. I think I'm still going to get it, but it might end up just collecting my laundry. Yeah. I was like, cool. Like, and I say that to say, you're asking my opinion.

I also don't care if you disagree. And we'll still be great friends. Yeah. You know, I don't judge any. one for not listening to me. But if you asked for my opinion, it was essentially a yes or no question. She was asking me. She said, is this bullshit? That's like there's only two answers to that. Right. And so like I'll give my, but I think the question was, do you think this is bull. So it's not objective fact. It's just asking me for my opinion, which is no different than, you know,

like on social media, trainers argue to the death about which exercise is better. this or that. Right. And I sit there and I'm like, I'll tell you what exercise I think is better, but it's said with the same level of care, if you said to me, do you like the barbell bench press or the dumbbell bench press? I would say I like the dumbbell bench press, but it's said with the same level of care as if we go to dinner tonight and you say,

do you like the chicken or the steak? Right. It's still going on my stomach. But if you fully disagree with me, I also don't care. Right. just going to keep talking. Right. So I want to teach, I want us to think for a moment that we're teaching somebody who's listening. And this person is somebody who struggles with concept of speaking directly, struggles with the idea of pushing back on somebody's ideas. And there's somebody

who really does care. They wish they could be like, I don't, I don't care of other people's opinion. But deep down, they really do. For you, What's your mindset and how to speak directly to people who have perhaps a higher ego or a very, you know, inflated high sense of self? It's very important to be direct. I also think it's important to know that being direct doesn't mean you have to be a jerk. And it actually, it's better to not be a jerk. So it's better to be politely direct. but I do think that when people are coming to you for your opinion, it's very important to give a clear

opinion and not waiver. And I think that too often people, when they're asked for their opinion, particularly from people like the people I train, quickly think what do they want me to say? And I think that I try to just say what I think. and realized that they're coming to me for this. And that is really important. I had a very, this is probably like 12 years ago, shortly into my time in L.A.

I trained this guy who was a really successful movie producer. And he became kind of like a dad figure to me. And I was telling him my struggles with drawing boundaries with my big shot clients. and he said to me, you just have to make them realize that you're the them of training. And that really helped me. Why so?

Because one, it really improved my confidence almost immediately because I thought, I mean, they're calling me for this. And then two, it almost instantly, there's something freeing. about just like saying the thing and it's always gone well. I think a lot of times people hem and haul over what to say because they're nervous about how it's going to be taken. And not always, but most of the time that I've given an honest direct reply to somebody, it's received with thanks rather than pushback.

Why do you think that is? what like the the hidden power of when you are you give the direct honest answer here's where it's interesting i i i've talked to you about this but i read a book called the platinum rule and the platinum rule it's a long book people could read it but i'll sum it up for them in two seconds the golden rule is doing on to others as you'd want done on to you the platinum rule is treat others how they want to be treated and so when you think about that it really helps your communication because think about if somebody were if you asked somebody for their advice and they gave a roundabout answer and didn't give you a clear direct response that would be annoying so just

do the same but i think that people worry if i am direct or if i disagree they're going to think less of me or they're going to not like me or they're going to judge me and most of the time that's just in your head they're not going to judge you they're going to appreciate that you're going to appreciate that you you shot straight with them and they'll continue to go to you because I think that some people like a yes man but I think more people like that friend or that person that's going to tell what they really think. And it's a feel like the people that I know in my life and you're one of them that I can go to and know that I'm going to get a straight answer about anything.

And it's nice to know that versus is somebody, are they giving me the response that they think I just, I want to hear? Because sometimes that's, oh, it looks like somebody. Some kind of worker. Okay, this is fun. So while we're recording, we just had somebody knock on the door and say they have pest control.

I got to say, he had really good techniques. He was a nice guy. And I had to tell him that we were recording. And I feel like I didn't tell them that we were recording. I just said, hey, man, I respect the grind. Now it's not a good time for us. I know. Yeah.

That was one of those like, go away, but also give me your number because I'll hire you for something. Exactly. It's like I honestly respect the way he handled it. Yeah. But the people who, like I know people who, when they have a door-to-door salesman, they typically won't answer the door. Just the people just don't answer doors really very much, I think nowadays. Or if anybody rings a door. they're like, who could that be coming to my actual door?

But also, the people who do open it or the people who get on the phone with somebody, they feel really uncomfortable, like saying no. They'd stand there and listen to him talk, given his pitch for 10 minutes, you know, and then be like, oh, yeah, here's, I don't know, I guess, I'm not just to listen to it. I know we're on air, but down, down my street, uh, there's these two eight-year-old girls that always knock on everyone's door and sell stuff. Yeah. And Nicole and I buy all of it. It's like they sell me my own rocks.

Right. I'll give you a dollar from the rock for my driveway. Right. Yeah. I just can't say no. Yeah. Oh, he was, he was great. Shout out to the bug man.

Not a great time. But I loved to. He said, when's a good time for me to be back? That was awesome. That was great. Anyway, that goes into the feeling of there's something about when you're direct and when you're honest with people, they trust you more. And here, I think the proofs in the pudding, I don't think I've ever used that phrase before, but it works. What for you is the reason why all these high profile names come to you consistently and some for years and years is because

you know you're going to be direct. They know you're going to be honest. And I think anytime you're coaching people or training people in particular, you have to have that skill set or there's never going to be that level of trust. For sure. But again, I think that it's important to realize that honesty, directness are not synonymous with being a jerk. Right.

You can do that and be, I would say I'm very honest. I'm direct and I'm also pretty chill. And, you know, those all work. Yeah, except once, yeah, if somebody's being too direct, someone's so and it's, you know, do you like my shoes? No, I hate them. You know what I mean? You're like, okay, you could just say, I'm glad you like them. Yeah, totally.

You know what I mean? Totally. What are those? Yeah, exactly. Before we keep going, I want to talk to you about cozy earth. It's common that we want to show up for other people in our life. It's also very important that you find little ways, little moments to show up for yourself. One way that I have done that with my family and my kids is what we do when we have these little moments between right after dinner and right for bed. And we when we try and watch usually like a 90s movie, what we've been using, right, is cozy earth's. It's called the cuddle blanket. it's probably, it feels like a bear, very friendly bear, is laying on top of you. It's weighted, it's warm, and we're able to pretty much put my whole entire family. So me, Sierra, and the two kids, all right there, and we get to watch America's some videos

or something that means a whole lot to us. And in that little moment, it feels like everything you're doing is in the right place. I'm glad that I have Cozy Earth as a sponsor because everything they do is awesome. They have a 100-night sleep trial, and if you don't like it in 100 nights, you can get it back. So that's incredible. I can tell you the blanket is where it's at. Right now, you can go to cozyearth.com slash Jefferson, use the coach Jefferson, for 20% off. Listen to me, if I'm talking to you about a blanket, it's a really good blanket.

CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson used to go Jefferson for 20% off. And now, let's keep going. Okay, so the golden rule is treat others how you would want to be treated. Correct, which I think is great. Yes. for leading life morally. And just overall good life. Yeah, I'm with you. And then the platinum rule is treat others how they want to be treated. So it's more into the intention of who they are as a person, how they would appreciate the approach. In other words, I can see it in the aspect of like gift giving. You're not a great gift giver if you're giving somebody a gift that you would want. Yeah. You know, if I, like, we had Mother's Day recently, and if I gave my mom a gift that, you know, that was a grill or something that I would want or like a pocket knife or, you know, something, a cool, you know, a nice new cooler, my mom would be like, this is, I think that's a platinum rule at work of showing, treat others how they would want to be treated.

Yeah. So the book, the book, the. platinum rule is mainly talking about romantic relationships, but I think that it can be expanded out to any friendship, any working relationship. But I definitely would communicate by the platinum rule, not the golden rule. If I communicated with other people how I prefer, I'd have no friends because I just like someone shooting straight with me. I don't really care. how it comes off. I'm pretty thick-skinned. I spend my day, I see five, six, seven, eight people a day, and I have five, six, seven, eight different communication styles throughout the day, disseminating the same information, just saying it differently. Because I think that certain people

respond better to tough love and brutal honesty. Some people respond better to true love and a little softer approach and I can say the same message eight different ways to eight different people but it's important to know how people respond best because it's not always what you say it's how you say it and what you say and so that mess and no I love all of this because I the one thing I want to say is there's that whole communication thing of it's not what you say it's how you say it yeah I do disagree to an extent because I always believe it is what you say too, but it's what you say and how you say. Right.

It can be both. Yeah. Do, so I want to focus in on what you just said. You could have five to seven high profile clients coming through your door, through the, and in your garage there in the gym and working out. And you have to give the same message, you know, five to seven different ways. How, how, what's your process? If you had to put in some type of formula of how you know first of the style of that person and how you adjust your message every time to make sure that there's, you know, an optimized level of trust.

Well, there's a feel-out process to any relationship. So I think in the beginning, I'm always really nice. You ask lots of questions. Yeah, I ask a lot of questions. So anytime a new client comes in, I start with three questions. So to backtrack, anytime a new client comes in, regardless of what they do in their life, I ask three simple questions. What are your goals? What's your injury history and what's your past training history? The goals in injury history help develop the actual tangible plan.

The past training history gives me a quick rundown of their exercise background and allows me to meet them where they're at, both in terms of the actual workout and in terms of how into the gym process. process. So people that are gym heads, we can get right to it and go pretty hard. People that are newer to it, we start pretty slowly and build over time. And so that's important. And then the way they answer those questions also helps me. So the actual info helps me. The way they answer allows me to know their basic vibe and how they approach fitness. Are they somebody that is super hardcore about this? Are they nervous? A lot of people come to the gym with fear. And that's super important to take into account if somebody's fearful especially like insecurities yeah if somebody is insecure

or if they're scared of getting hurt or if they're scared a lot of women are scared initially of bulking up i try to put their minds at ease and i'll be a whole lot more gentle in my approach if somebody is pretty gung-ho about the whole process we will start a little harder and if somebody comes in really as a know-it-all or arrogant, sometimes I like to kind of chop them down at the knees of them and bring them back to life and make them realize sort of this is my dojo. Right, right. Yeah, this is my dojo. I like that. Okay, so I hear that on feeling them out. Is there, I don't know, I'm just curious, is there one question that you ask not for the answer but to see how they really respond to it?

Every single day. Yeah. So every workout, you know, trainers love to get really granular with assessments. My assessment daily is asking you, how are you feeling? And that could be answered in a number of ways. And so I leave it purposely open-ended because how you feeling could be my back hurts, my knee hurts, my shoulder hurts. how you're feeling could be I didn't sleep well last night I got in a fight with my partner and my kid didn't sleep it could be I have a crazy day today and I only have 30 minutes

just just very open-ended question and I don't really care how you answer it but how you answer it dictates how I'm going to proceed in the workout the goal here if how we're going to teach everybody listening to gain that level of true honesty no matter how difficult the other person is as I hear you saying one there's this feeling out process and it starts with open any questions and the one that you have found above all others is a simple it's not complicated it's simple and it's how are you feeling correct and it's that question that's going to allow you're not nearly concerned about the answer i've thought the substance of it but the way in which they answer yeah so the way in which they answer that question of how you feel

dictates one, what we're going to do for the workout and two, how I'm going to treat you today. Yeah. You know, if you say, how am I feeling? I'm feeling great. Then maybe we work out really hard and we laugh and we joke. If you say to me, I'm really sad today, I might talk about it. If you say I'm just really pissed off today, but I don't want to talk about it. I've had workouts with some of the people that I train that I'm friends with.

I've deemed it to be the best thing I can do to barely talk. Sometimes I just listen. I just listen or not even, I'm very comfortable with silence, to be honest. I think silence can be great sometimes. I think sometimes people just want to work out, take it out on the weights, and they don't want to talk, and that's fine. Well, I think that's a wonderful point of... Just to piggyback on that, I think, as you always talk about communication,

I think in general being comfortable with silence in a working relationship, a romantic relationship, or a friend relationship is very important. I think sometimes people just talk to fill the void and you don't need to. A lot of my best friends will just sit on the same couch and just text and barely talk. And I'll go home and Nicole will say, how's he doing? But I'm like, I don't know. You know, and that was a fine hang. You know, right. Well, I wanna, I wanna continue on,

until you and I later go to the couch and text other people and hang out. Is this idea of creating this trust formula? It's one that open into question, how are you feeling? That's really looking for getting the information that, if I got a piece of paper and says circle, you know, where your pain points or it doesn't get to that. You need that kind of, yeah, you need that level that's actually going to create that

vibe feeling of what's going on with somebody. So it's that open into question of how are you, how are you feeling? Next, you're going to be looking at using that to communicate differently with each person. Yes. And so this is where you implement the Platinum rule of talk to somebody how they want to be, how they want to be talked to or spoken to. do you think there's anything else in that formula of like what you're either your mindset is when you're progressing? Because I can tell you as somebody, I don't think I'm not an official client, but I've trained with you what, two or three times?

Yeah. And I can tell you, I want to hear your take on how you do it and communicate with clients. And then I'll tell you from at least my side, what I noticed and communicate. from you. So you want to know my initial intake? No, I want to I want to know your process or mindset of you say I know that when somebody's asking me a question, are they pushing back? How do I nudge them into what I want them to do, knowing that this is what you hired me for? This is what I'm here for. Well, that's where I would say my job as a trainer one thing i want to say or push back on is i feel like you might look at the personal

training this might be like your relationship with the trainer but i think that you're looking at it as these people come in and tell me what they want and i just say like that's wrong you got to do it my way and that's not what it is because i'm a i i think that no matter how great my clientele is i'm forever service worker and I work for them. And so I would say that what I do is ask them what they want to work on and then assess what I think they need to work on and do about 80% of what they want to work on and 20% what I think they need to work on. Yeah, because you're not somebody who believes you should just be maxing out all the time. Well, only if you are somebody that wants to max out all the time. But I think that if your goal is to just, you know, I kind of would say my niche in fitness is like what I call just regular people fitness.

You know, it's not for the gym heads. I think that in online fitness world, it's thought that everyone is training to be jacked and super lean. And most people don't want to be jacked or super lean. they just want to look pretty you know like i don't i don't know how else to say it other than like i just live in the real world like i i i want to look like normal people fit and my clients want to look normal people fit yeah and so that requires a much less aggressive approach than most people would lead you to believe right you know i would say um if i've always called myself captain obvious with all things you know like but uh the people that i if if you just kind of want to look

you know musk you know people hate the word toned but every everyone knows what the word means. I define toned as less muscular than jacked and less lean than shredded. So kind of jacked, kind of shredded. Something in there. That's toned, you know. And for women, it's probably a little less jacked than less lean. Right. Right. And for that, it requires a lot less than what it takes to be like jacked A.F. So to speak. What would you say, you know, For the person right now who they think it's too late, they kind of start on their recovery journey, do you think there's a time where there's ever,

it's too late to start fitness? I've trained three women over 100. No way. Yeah. No way. I've trained three women over 100. And I actually, you know, this kind of day. me i've been a trainer for 20 years now last month i went to the funeral one of my clients no but i

trained her uh she passed away at 90 but i trained her wow up until a year before she passed away while she was on oxy she had an oxygen tube under her nose and we're still working out in a chair so and i trained my grandma until she was 99 wow uh i taught exercise classes at the nursing home And I have seen, I have some clients in their 70s that would bury you, to be honest, like really, like really fit. Nice. And, you know, those type of people, I don't want to like say that you could start training at 70 and get like that. They just train their whole life. Right.

I do believe, you know, there's a lot of cliches with this, but I believe it's never too late to start. You know, my, my mom has a best friend, Pam. She's always kind of been like a mom to me, too. Pam, I posted Pam last year, and she's 80. And Pam started working out at 78 and kicks ass. That's awesome. Yeah. And I say that, I'm not just saying that because she's the, like, Pam is really.

Shout out Pam. Yeah. And, you know, I post my mom all the time. Yeah. who by the way is a fan of you yeah i love mama bruno and my mom is 76 and you know is like a black belt in the gym to be honest so uh you know my grandfather uh he's about to be 85 he's not in great shape um he's not taking great care of himself and i've been trying to get him to do something different and his response is always i mean i'm 80 i'm about to be 85 what do you want me to do it's not going to matter you know it's it's too late can people who are older in life and age really make a big difference in their overall like health to feel better day to day this is where like the nuance matters it kind of depends you know so yeah to be on like when i say because i just like

to be honest all three women that i trained over a hundred we trained in a chair so it's not like you know it's not like we started working out and all of a sudden they they jumped out of their chair and we're sprinting. We, you know, we stayed in the chair and it was predominantly upper body and core. Still, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I, a huge part of my business,

both in person and my app, is women over 50 that are new to the gym. And that is where I believe that strength training is completely life-changing. I had a, I have, I've trained a woman named Sherry. She's 56. I've trained her since she was, 50 she had osteoporosis when we started and over the last six years combined with a medical approach and

taking medicine she's reversed her osteoporosis by consistent strength training she does two to three days a week but doesn't miss and she's not a gym head by any means but she's really consistent and has bumped her weights up from about eight to 10 pound dumbbells to like 25 30 pound dumbbells which is doable but also not crazy and if you met her she know she she doesn't come off like a gym person she isn't she's not like grunting in the gym but she puts in consistent hard work and it's changed her health and there's a lot of women you know there's a new push on social media for women in their 40s 50s 60s to be strength training for bone density and for getting leaner and i love it where i have a little axe to grind with it is the general sentiment on social media is pushing these women into pretty aggressive

training and doing low reps to failure and sprinting and stuff that I just personally think is overly aggressive and not that safe yeah but I do believe that simple safe sustainable strength training done slightly below your threshold but consistently for a long time will change your life health. What is the the people who come to you, I'm talking to all your followers, not just the ones that are at your gym. What's generally the one thing that people get wrong about fitness? I think they take an all or nothing approach. They think that they have to work out and stick to their program and diet perfectly, or I'm not going to start yet, or if they fall off the wagon, they feel like they blew it. And I think that most normal people that don't like training and aren't passionate about healthy eating

would do better with a much more moderate approach and giving themselves a little bit more slack to do things 75, 80% well. because I think some people thrive off that gym mentality and eating well and counting their calories and stuff. And they tend to be trainers. And most regular people don't like that. And I've really been successful as a trainer, I think, amongst regular people because I'm kind of more like that. I'd rather I'd rather be 10 pounds dumpier than count my calories. That's like my worst nightmare. That's like a prison to me. And so, and I would rather, you know, I am a trainer.

I preach strength training. If a friend invites me to hike that I haven't seen for a while, I'll skip my own workout 10 times out of 10 because to me the weights aren't going anywhere, but there's more to life than, you know, your workout. I'd rather go catch up with a friend and hike or whatever, you know, that type of thing. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Our Place. I got a question. When's the last time that you thought about what you're cooking with your cookware?

A lot of the times, what I have learned is back in the day, I was using pans that had Teflon, PFA, forever chemicals that aren't good for you and your family. And I've had a big switch, and I can tell you that Our Place has made a big impact as part of that. Our Place is a cookware brand. and all of their stuff has no forever chemicals in it. It's great. It looks good. It comes in lots of different colors. They have this product that's called the Always Pan. That's my favorite. And then they have perfect pods. And it's rightfully named. Last night, we did breakfast for dinner. You ever had that? It's awesome. Well, I was able to use, we use them all the time. Ours are very well loved, well seasoned. And I can tell you, I'm not going to cook with anything else. So if you really care about your cook, look no further than Our Place. Right now, you can go to from our place.com slash Jefferson and get 10% off sitewide. From Ourplace.com slash Jefferson.

Use to go Jefferson for 10% off sitewide. And they have 108 risk free trial, free shipping, and returns. Can't beat that. And now, let's keep going. If there are only two exercises that your clients, people wanting to get more fit, could do for the rest of their life, what do you think? think those two exercises would be? A dumbbell row and a Bulgarian split squat. Bulgarian split squat is back feet on the bench. Ben, I hate those.

Bulgarian split squats are without a doubt the most ubiquitously hated exercise in existence, but I would also say that the hard exercises you hate doing are the ones that work the best. Don't tell me that. Those are the ones I actively avoid. Yeah, totally. Which is, yeah. I can tell, look at my legs. I can tell, look at your legs, I was going to say. Why do you think this is only, I hope we're only recording this chest up. You can do a peck dance, but you're going to have to wear a pants the rest of your life.

Exactly. Yeah, I, uh, yeah, but I would say, I would say those two because most people have bad posture. Rose really help with that. And, uh, changing your posture will actually have a very big difference. on how you look visually and then lower body wise I think rear foot elevated split squats Bulgarian split squats just give you the best bang for your buck they work you know your legs individually they work your glutes your quads balance I hate that answer yeah it stretches your hip flexors I mean I would say if

you did nothing else but those two exercises it's a pretty good workout all right I got one out of two yeah I got a I got a up the rows yeah yeah I Yeah, well, I'll do, I'll do occasionally. Your workout is bench, dumbbell bench. I do legs. I did legs yesterday, but I hate, I loathe the Bulgarian squidshots because they're painful. Yeah, totally. But you love legs.

Yeah, but I also picked being a trainer as a job. Yeah, that's true. I'm a little off. Yeah, you are. You are a little off. You know? That's, that's how you know. When I.

I also train 90s. 95% for mental reasons. I find life to be very challenging a lot and unfair. And I find the gym to be the most fair place in the world. And that's what I love about it. And that what you put in is what you get out. And I have developed a lot of my personal confidence from the gym. Because I got into training at a place where I was in a very low point of life

and got pretty proficient in the gym, and it's a huge part of my confidence. So whenever I feel like life is kicking my ass, I feel like I can kind of take it back in the gym. That's the part that I can control. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It helps me just get the stress out for sure. Even if it's just a nice walk outside

that I have a pretty good pace on, just anything, get my body moving. My ideas is always just to, if I can just get my body moving, If I can break a sweat doing something, then I'm doing it right. I have a question. This is my own curiosity. What do you think people assume wrongly about these high-profile celebrities that all come to you for workout? The main thing is that the main thing that I see when I'll share a celebrity's workout video or something is people that are,

hating will say oh if I had all the time in the world to work out I'd look like that too or I'd do that too and I think I don't think these people at all realize how busy my clients are and their travel schedules and stuff they actually don't they're they're way busier so I think to my you know truthfully like all my strongest fittest friends don't have a pot to piss in they just go to the gym all day you know like to be honest with you yeah yeah yeah and uh so it's something that i've never it's like never really made sense to me because i really do believe i interact with some of the richest most famous people in the world but the gym truly is an equalizer in the sense that you still got to put in the work and right you know i have

been with some of my clients that are preparing for something and they're working out extremely hard and running my hill at 9 p.m. at night. Your hill is no joke. Yeah, only to have someone online go, well, fly it all the time in the world, I do that too. Yeah. I promise you, if you would have done it because, you know, go to go to any gym and all the fittest people aren't rich or famous. Right.

To be honest, like they're, you know, they usually, they'd probably be. more rich if they spend less time in the gym and they're not like to be honest right right it's a whole thing yeah i do feel that most people of like friends i know and certainly part of my goals is most guys don't really want to be jacked even though that's what you see in like all the marketing is just it's very niche yeah i would like to just fill out my shirt you know like i want to feel like i feel like a normal person or somebody um who just wants to feel good and what they're wearing. I feel like it's as simple as it's as simple as that is not exactly what all the marketing shows. When I was in my 20s I did want to get a little bigger. I started I was really skinny and then things changed for me about 15 years ago I tore the labor

room in my shoulder but I was starting my own training business and wasn't in a place where I wanted to get surgery so I just basically didn't work out for 10 months and rehabbed it and stuff and I I lost probably 10, 15 pounds of mostly muscle. And as a meathead at the time, it really killed me. I was like, I lost all this muscle. And the amount of compliments I got, wow, man, you look really good. Have you been working out? You're losing weight.

I'm going to, I killed myself to build this muscle. And people just tell me I look better when I lost it. Right. It's like, well, this is a life lesson. I'm going to tone it down a little bit. Yeah, well, and I think that also speaks to what you said earlier about just the life balance because most people they I mean I I love the workout routine that I have here and I pretty much work out at the house yeah and but I know what it's like to drive 30 minutes 15 20

minutes to a gym and then go to a gym and try and figure out what you want to do and that can be really overwhelming and somebody's at the station that you want to have and then you need a oh I got to look back and get back in time and so you only have time during the day especially if you got kids, do you do it early in the morning or late at night? And it gets to where it's, there's so many variables, it can be overwhelming. I think all fitness is great. I understand people that like to go to the gym. For some people, that's their outlet, I work out at home. Most of my clients work out at home with minimal equipment. And all of my app users work out at home with minimal equipment, just dumbbells and a bench. So that's sort of just the playground I'm,

I play in. Yeah. But it's all good. Or even just body weight. Yeah. Totally. You don't have to, you know, I, I, I, I, I, but at the same time, if you like going to the gym.

Yeah. Then awesome. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of depends. I, I, I think I know some of your answers because I've, I know you well enough. What are the workouts that you think?

What are the top two most overrated? workout movements. I'm trying to think of a second one besides burpees. I would say burpees and burpees. But what else besides burpees? I mean... Maybe we just can't get past burpees. Yeah, burpees and burpees.

Tell me why you hate burpees. I love that you hate them. I just, well, by the way, you know, this is, this talks about social media fitness. It's like a controversial that I don't like burpees online. I couldn't possibly care less if people like burpees, but I talk about it through my, so you have to remember, I train like 80% women. So when I talk about stuff, I'm talking about fitness for like average dudes and average women. So burpees now are part of like CrossFit and high rocks competitions. And if you're savage, you can do all the burpees you want.

But I call burpees an advanced exercise masquerading as a beginner exercise. So you'll just see women in a class just told to do 50 burpees, but they can't even do one good burpee. So I'm like, this is just going to go from bad to terrible quick. Yeah, it's a safety issue. Yeah, they don't have the requisite mobility. But I call it like, I just think it's lazy training. People just give people a bunch of burpees to get their heart rate up and make them think they got a good workout. Yeah.

Yeah. And what do you, what is it that you should do instead of burpees? Like literally anything else? Go for a run. We push-ups, do squats, do lunges. Yeah, you told me, you told me once lunges and push-ups. Push-ups, yeah. Just break the burpee down until, like, you know, you could do a squat or a squat jump paired with a push-up. It's that transition that always looks terrible, that I'm like, just eliminate that and you're way better off. Well, it can injure your back, like easily. Yeah. And again, you know, I can't imagine that you have like that many like gym bros that listen to this. But if you like burpees, go do them. And if you're a beast, like, who cares? But I'm talking about the average people that do it to get their heart rate up. I think you can do it a lot more safely.

You know, I see you and you've been told introduced to me by others of you're kind of the trainers trainer of a lot of trainers look up to you. I'll take that. A lot of a lot of. A lot of. gym trainers, fitness people, I think that's really telling. It's not just all consumers and people want to get fit. It's also people who are training and coaching others. And I, if there was kind of this lasting piece of advice that you would give those people, what would it be? Training is part art and part science. And depending on who you're training. training, the science or the art might be more important and you have to figure that out. You have to know who cares more about the actual info and who cares more about coming to the gym for the feeling they get.

And that's the art. And the art part is inextricably tied to the communication and realizing that at the end of the day, I judge a trainer almost entirely off long term client retention. I think the world judges trainers based on who they train, how many social media followers they have, what they look like. I could lean into all three of those things, but I don't think that makes me a good trainer. What I take pride in is that I've kept most of my clients over 10 years, and I think that that is partly from delivering a good workout and not getting them hurt, and mostly from creating a rapport that makes them want to keep coming back continuously. even though they probably don't like fitness that much. What do you think you do differently that others don't when it comes to why you retain clients so long? I think that I'm able to size up what their real motivation for coming is and just kind of keep that at the forefront.

I think some people come to make massive changes to their body and, most come to make minor changes to their body and just feel good, have a mental release, have a fun hour that they don't have to think about the hard parts of their day. The funny part about me is my whole training system is just predicated on the basics. So my long-term clients probably already know what workout we're going to do before they come, but I think they still come maybe partly for accountability. but I think that it might be better to suffer with someone else than just do it on your own. Yeah, for sure.

But I do think that the way to keep people long term has much less to do about the workout and much more to do with how you interact with them during that workout. Well, if it's both science and art, I got to say you do it very well. And to have you here with me, man, is just, it's surreal. I appreciate this too. Yeah. I feel before we end, I want to just say, because I don't think you probably talk about yourself that much on here, I think you talk about concepts. But I want to say that just as your homie, it's been very inspiring to get to know you

because I've met a lot of public-facing people that are. very different behind the scenes than they are in you know in front of the camera and that's pretty disheartening and for myself as somebody i've always been as a trainer to famous people i'm kind of like the guy behind the guy or the guy behind the woman and i'm more comfortable with that but when i started my training app i had to get out of my comfort zone and go behind the camera and And seeing you just be this dude that makes videos in your car and, but you're popular. And then when you meet you, you're like, oh, you're just popular because you're you. And that's pretty not the norm.

You know, that's definitely not the norm. And so you, when I met you, I remember, you know, the door closed. And I said to my wife, this kind of gives me hope that I can do this like internet stuff. and not be a tool at the same time. And so that is really cool. And I hope that your listeners can know that you're the same guy here that you are, like when the camera or the mic or whatever this is goes off. Yeah.

And I appreciate that, Ben. I appreciate that a lot about you. And it's somebody who I can't say that I, enjoy like not that I didn't enjoy this podcast whatever it was cool but like you know I you know if if I hit the lottery tomorrow no offense but I wouldn't have come done this podcast I would have just rather gone to dinner but I probably wouldn't have a podcast either yeah we're all like you know this this internet stuff is not my passion but it's wild to me how I've been able to impact people through it and so I do it and I'm ultimately glad

I do but but you're one of the people that really inspires me to keep going with this stuff and realize that you can just be a regular dude yeah and like to to come here I I had a one of Nicole's friends cover one of my clients she does Pilates and she was gonna train Chelsea Handler today actually and her name's Mary and and Mary said oh you're traveling in Nashville what podcast you you doing and I said Jefferson Fisher and she's like oh I love that guy I follow him he seems like a you just like a normal guy I feel like you guys would be homies and I was like yeah we are that's why we're doing the podcast and it just it's a very rare thing I think to have the the size of the following you do

and do the I don't even know what you do but like the talking and the podcasts and the seminars and stuff all that public stuff and just be the most normal is cool. Like normal. Just know, like normal is the best compliment to me. Yeah. I appreciate that. But it's been actually inspiring to me.

And I don't say inspiring very often because I just don't put. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. That's a cool thing. And my only thing that I would suggest for your followers is you just start doing your podcast with your shirt off from now on. As somebody who's seen. If we won't my views to go up.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you could definitely, you could definitely, you know, just saying. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. Yeah, man. Love you, dude.

Likewise.