The Joe Rogan Experience - #1031 - Jamie Kilstein

Episode Date: October 30, 2017

Jamie Kilstein is a writer, radio host, and stand up comic.

Welcome back to civilization Jamie Kilstein. Hi So a lot has changed since the last time we spoke Yeah And for people who don't know you used to be the host of or one of the co-hosts of citizen radio like super progressive lefty podcast and You were a vegan, but now you ate a steak with Stan Hope. All hell's broken loose. I don't know what's happening.

I don't know where I am. I remember I was thinking about like being back in the studio and I never met Jamie before. And I was like, all right, everyone's being really nice to me. I'm like, literally feel like I'm like, this isn't, this isn't a trick. Joe sent me very nice emails and I'm like, but I, everyone's being really nice to me. I'm like, literally feel like I'm like, this isn't a trick. Joe sent me very nice emails and I'm like, but I'm a very trickable guy. And I came in and yeah, everyone's just lovely and nice. Yeah, man, a lot of change. I went into hiding.

I went into hiding. What happened? Because I only got like a peripheral story of like what went sideways. All right. But like some people, girls accused you of- Well, yeah. Look, this is the fucking worst time for me to be like, you know what? Now that everyone's talking about Weinstein, it's time for Kilstein to make his return.

Weinstein, Kilstein. It's too similar. I like Rhodes. Yeah, it's very Jew-y and predatory. When I wrote Stan Hope, when the Weinstein thing happened, I was like, hey, man, you want to like push off this return? He's like, you're fine. Yeah, so here's what happened. So it kind of started where I was a comic for years. And, you know, as it got more progressive, it got more into that judgmental territory, I guess, where I feel like I definitely became one of those people

who would just be on Twitter all day. And instead of sort of talking about real issues, it just becomes like, who are we mad at that day? Like, who used the wrong word that day? Who can we get fired that day? And it's Twitter mob stuff. And it happens on the right and it happens on the left. And it's just like kind of just people who are sad

who just live like in their box, which I was like one of them, right? That's why I think this is such an important conversation because you've kind of stepped away from it and you see it for what it is. I think people don't realize it when they're caught up in the swirl of it, the momentum of it,

that it's almost like a natural human behavior pattern. It's very tribal. Yeah, well, it's tribal and it's physically addictive. You know, like I've like gone back and forth with like drinking and not drinking a pot and not smoking pot. And I can tell you that the thing I was addicted to some fucking stranger in my living room on Twitter. And I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm gonna go take a walk. I don't need I don't need to be involved in this guy's life.

I closed it. And before I even knew it, I'm like walking in the park, fighting with some other guy on my fucking phone. And I'm like, it follows you. Like if someone's calling you a cunt, they're calling you a cunt at dinner with your girlfriend. They're calling you a cunt when you go to like, uh, your brother's graduation and you're just like refreshing it, waiting for someone to tell you that you're good.

and sort of, so that I got addicted to that, um, more than anything. And especially when I finally got an audience, um, with like the left of left. I mean, just to be very clear, it's not like I'm going to come on this show and suddenly like do a fucking Shawn Michaels heel turn and be like, I'm Johnny Rape Joke.

Those fucking bitches all had it coming. You're just being a person. Well, and that's what I like wasn't doing for a very long time is I feel like I don't want to speak for people, but I feel like with me, I always needed something to like define me. Right. Where it's like, I'm a progressive or I'm a, I'm a vegan or I'm just jujitsu and whatever I, whatever I would become kind of currently obsessed with, I would sort of like throw the other shit away and kind of like shit all over that. Um, because you know, a lot of times I would feel like a failure. Like that's really where the progressive, um, I mean, I still hold a lot of progressive ideas, but that's when I went from comic to, um, political.

It wasn't that I like wanted to make comedy my, my like nemesis, right? It was that, well, I felt, I feel like I've, I failed. my like nemesis, right? It was that, Oh, I felt, I feel like I've, I failed. Um, you know, I dropped out of school to start a comedy at like 17 and I did the things you're supposed to do. Um, and yeah, I did Montreal a couple of times and, uh, Conan once. Uh, and I had this year where it seemed like things were going to happen. And then, you know, I was kind of that guy that people were like, Oh, we like you. We can't do anything with you, but we like you. And so I started to kind of make my own audience. And the audience was fucking great.

It was like a bunch of, you know, when that show started, it was a bunch of just weird, sweet, nerdy comedy fans. And then everything just started getting pushed to crazy. Like when I knew shit, I said this on Doug's podcast, when I knew shit got nuts is when I was defending a trans person. So already like a left issue, like I'm doing the right thing. Right. And I called this transphobic guy

an idiot. And we had an email that said, while we appreciate you using defending trans people, the word idiot is ableist. And I wanted to be like, you're retarded. You're a people, the word idiot is ableist. And I want it to be like,

you're retarded. You're a retarded cunt. Explain ableist for people. Ableist is making fun of people who- I don't know. I don't know what it means anymore. I thought ableist was just like, that guy's in a wheelchair.

Fuck him. But I guess like all these different terms, these everyday terms, like I guess idiot is ableist because fucking, I don't know, there was an idiot in a wheelchair. No, no, no, no. It's ableist because if you're not an idiot, if your brain works well, you're mocking someone whose brain doesn't work well.

They are not able to think correct. Oh, okay. So you're an ableist. Joe, you just out-progressived me. Well, I'm pretty progressive, believe it or not. I mean, I look like a meathead and I espouse some right-wing ideas. But when it comes to like social issues, I'm very progressive. That's why we became friends.

You saw a gay rights thing I did on Twitter. Yeah. Like you weren't, that's why. But what I saw happening, I don't mean to interrupt you, but what I saw happening with you and what I see happening just in general online, you know, I mean, I was on citizens radio when you guys first started. Yeah. You were on our poster. Yeah. But I think there's something that happened where people around the time of occupy wall

street, things got really heated up and people started moving way left. And then some folks started moving way right. And I really truly believe to this day the way left is what started the whole trump movement it's in response to the way left i think all these shitheads got together and they didn't like being accused of being assholes or ableists or rapists or whatever it is by the ultra progressives so they went far right and alt-right i mean the the alt-right essentially was people who didn't identify with these old men who were bankers but they also didn't want to have anything to do with these ultra lefty progressives that were calling everyone a racist

everyone a rapist every man's a piece of shit oh i i did all of that. I straight up did all of that. And I think one of the things with the ultra left, and maybe this is me like, you know, maybe this is me desperately trying to defend myself. But I think in a weird way, it was harder for me and it's harder for a lot of people to see themselves slipping into the extreme left. And so like what I mean by that is I never thought when I heard people say the extreme right is as bad as the extreme left. And so like, what I mean by that is I never thought when I heard people say the extreme right is as, is as bad as the extreme left. I was always like, fuck you. Because like the extreme left, isn't like, you know, bombing Palestine being like, give us free healthcare or like let trans people piss in the right bathroom. Like, you know, uh, even that, like, uh, the shooter, not in Vegas, but that DC shooter, like he was like a fucking crazy guy. He wasn't able to, I'm sorry. He wasn't like shooting the politician screaming, like, you know, I mean,

he liked the Bernie Sanders page, but it wasn't like we are launching wars against Islam for Christianity. It wasn't, you know, what we're doing this for, for free market capitalism. It was to me, the extreme left, when I heard people say it, and the reason I would scoff when someone like you would say it is because I'm like, dude, the left should just stand for equality.

Everyone has the right to an education. Everyone has the right to not go fucking hungry, to have health insurance. Gay people can do whatever they want with their dicks. The end, bye-bye. And vaginas bye and vaginas it really should be essentially like that on both sides the right what

being a conservative used to be was small government and people having the government stay out of your lives and somehow or another it's morphing totally where it's like we will stay out of your lives but we'll be like in your pussy if you want a fucking abortion we'll tell like in your pussy if you want to fuck an abortion.

We'll tell you like whose dick you can suck. The abortion thing is where it gets real squirrely, right? Because the abortion thing is essentially, it's a religious thing. And it's a religious thing. It's a moral thing. And it's also, what is an abortion? I mean, you are ending a life, but you're ending a life inside a woman's body. Well, when is it okay to do that?

Is it okay to do that one day? And does the grown woman's life matter more than the cells or more than? Well, yeah, that gets to a point. But initially, it's like, when is it defined as a life? I mean, if the moment of conception, if that moment, if 30 seconds later, it's an abortion. Like, if you could hold your 30 seconds later it's an abortion, like if you could hold your breath and then the baby's dead, you know, like if we found out that the moment a guy comes in a woman, if she could just hold her breath for a minute,

the baby will die. Yeah. I mean, is that, why does that sound worse? Baby murder? But, but it is, look, abortion is fucking weird. Right. And I'm pro choice, but abortion is weird because like when you when it gets older when you're four weeks in six weeks in it's still legal And it's a fucking little baby. I mean it is a little baby look man. Look at it

It's it looks like a little baby sometimes. They have a heartbeat if it gets to a certain age Yeah, what's going on like I'm not saying that it should be my choice to define whether or not someone should do it or not do it, but it's very disingenuous when people frame this argument as it's a woman's right to choose, period, and that's what it is. It's not just that. It's also killing a baby. I don't know, man.

Feminists don't like me anymore, so I'm like, coat hanger up. I'm out of this debate. I don't give a shit. Well, it should be an honest debate because it is a very controversial and a very nuanced issue. So it's not as simple as, you know, the right doesn't want a woman to choose and stay out of my body. It's not just stay out of your body.

It's like, what are we doing? We're killing a baby that's in a woman's body. At what age should that be legal well and i think that's the whole thing that we were talking about before with these like echo chambers where you know for the first time ever i've been listening to sort of like both sides of issues um first time ever i mean first time since recently yeah yeah well because like you just again you the majority of people like yeah i'll totally fess up sure like i didn't ask a lot of follow-up questions because your Facebook feed is curated and your, your Twitter is all of your friends. And for the most part, people you agree with and, you know, comedy was actually comedy now. Like I've been listening to like a ton of like backlogs of your shows. Cause once I was just like, oh, he doesn't

hate me. I can listen to the show again. Great. I never hated. No, I know. I never hated you. And so, uh, but I started listening to the show and like hearing pretty equal, um, you know, progressive to conservative ideals and comedy was always kind of this cool place where you could explore ideas because comedy and jokes and laughter would sort of take the, um, take the edge off a little bit, you know what I mean? And you could actually talk about issues. And once I kind of became part of that crew that would even shit on comedy, then it was like, well, I can watch Democracy Now!

And I guess that's it. And I have my, and I would feel fucking stupid. I hung out with journalists. I didn't hang out with comics. I hung out with people where I was sort of like, felt like the joke monkey. And like the high school dropout part of me would get really like you felt like the joke monkey did you feel like you had to be funny when you're around those people yeah because because when i tried to say something like political or that i

thought was smart it would just be kind of like uh uh hushed because i'm not that smart i'm not i'm good at like telling stories um i'm i'm good at like i i think listening and asking like decent questions uh but i was never like a fucking intellectual um and a lot of that crowd is um and that's good we need those people right um but i would i i it was really easy for me to be like just shut up you know what i mean is this all in your mind i mean you're a human being right i mean if you're just talking to these people you're not an unintelligent person no i think is this just an insecurity that you carried around with you when you were around them holy um yeah a lot of you were venturing the reason why i ask you this your show was sort of in a lot of ways venturing into the world of journalism oh so that's where i was going uh

that's right that's where i was going like sort of way back which was um you know the the show the show started as a comedy show right um it was called drunken politics before it was called citizen radio um i think we changed it maybe around like occupy um but it was comedy and like we had progressive ideas so that's sort of what we talked about but it wasn't that we had to talk about it became this thing where any progressive issue in the news that day or on twitter we had to um we had to talk about that day right and um it sort of lost i don't know did you did it also no please interrupting here but did it also you you guys went to a sort of lost. I don't know. Did you, did it also, sorry to keep interrupting you here, but did it also,

you, you guys went to a sort of a subscription service. No, we actually, uh, no, the thing I'm really proud of, uh,

about that show and, and, and why I'm definitely bummed out. I lost, um, a lot of those fans or, or whatever was we, we started ages ago.

We, uh, we were pretty early on with podcasts and we never had commercials and we never had you didn't really get anything if you paid it was voluntary it was like a shitty version of npr where it was like everybody gets to show for free right it was like us trying to be socialist everyone gets to show for free if you can't afford five dollars a month ten dollars a month fifty dollars a lot of people do that way yeah sam harris does that totally yeah yeah we just didn't really have like we couldn't afford to send a month, $10 a month, $50. Right, but a lot of people do that way. I mean, Sam Harris does that. Totally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just didn't really have, like, we couldn't afford to send you, like, a tote bag or whatever. But, yeah, so it wasn't a pay model. Everything we said, anybody could hear. Right. We occasionally did, like, little, like, goofy bonus shows for, like, subscribers. But that was it.

That was the question. So there was some shows that only people who subscribed could do. Yeah, not a lot. But most of it was. Not a lot, though. Yeah, and it was five days a week, too. Right. So it was a lot. That's another thing. though. Yeah, and it was five days a week, too. Right. So it was a lot.

That's another thing. When you're doing a fucking show five days a week, you got to dig for things to be, like, pissed off about, to not be redundant. Yeah, I've done five day a week shows, and I don't think I'm at my best five days a week. I think four days a week is where I, like, start to break down. Yeah. Like, anything after four days a week. Unless I'm doing, like, fight companions, which are just a goof.

That's just hanging out and watching fights. That's easy. Yeah. You don't want to get stale or bored. You don't want to force it into being a job. No. I think what I got out of you was that you were getting a lot of praise, and you were being hailed. I saw Jezebel wrote something where they called you a great example of an

ally. Well, that was pre this year, Jezebel. Yeah. But I mean, but that expression is a very odd expression. I mean, I hate to sound like this disingenuous egalitarian, but I really do believe this. I mean, we should be allies to each other. We all should be. This idea that like there's a goddamn team war going on and that Jamie Kilstein is out there

bucking for the females. Right. But that's what it's like. It's like that's what they... Yeah. But they reward that. Yeah. See, this is the thing.

It's like... And this is not to single out Jezebel because I think they've got some great writers. Sure, yeah. There's something that happens with people when you write a lot of mean, very critical stuff. And you become this attack machine. And this is how you promote your ideas. This is how you push your agenda. By attacking people that some of them fucking deserve it for sure.

Some of them are definitely assholes. But it becomes almost like the currency that you deal in. Yeah, and that goes back to the insecurity, right? By the way, my dad. But let me finish what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. Is that when you're an attack machine like that, and I'm not saying that Jezebel is,

but there's a lot of the blogs that are attack machines. When you're an attack machine, and if you can be an ally on the other side, or not even on the other side, but an ally to the attack machine, and then they single you out as that, it gives you this feeling like, oh, I'm not going to get attacked by them. This is good. And you reinforce that behavior by ramping up the types of things that you say that they like, that they appreciate.

And it becomes a sort of weird exchange where, you know, it's like implied. Like, I think this is what a lot of what goes on in political circles as well. Like, there's not as much bribery as there is an understanding that if you do what we want you to do and you say what we want you to do, then you're in. Then you're on the good side. Yeah. And that goes back to that insecurity. And I think a lot of people are insecure.

I think we're all insecure. Everyone is. And when you do find that tribe and you do find people who are going, yeah. And the more you attack on Twitter, because not just blogs, like remember like individuals on Twitter, like me, like when I would see like who's getting piled on today. Right. Okay, cool. This writer wrote something about mans like who's getting piled on today. Right. OK, cool. This writer wrote something about mansplaining.

Don't need to read the article. What's the hashtag? That's the hashtag. I'm going to say the fucking meanest funny thing because I'm a comic and I'm funnier than journalists. And then famous people are going to retweet me or fave me. And then I get to feel like a fucking civil rights hero because that's what would happen where like I would literally tweet even if I not even a joke, even if I tweeted something sincere.

And this like sucks to admit. But even if I tweeted like hashtag Black Lives Matter, I'm refreshing that shit to be like, do Questlove favored it? You know what I mean? Like, I'm not doing it to be, you know, and then you can feel good about yourself. Then you can go not saying I did this, but you can go on the street and you can fucking ignore the homeless person. And you can cross the street when you see like the scary black guy because you're just like well i'm technically the rosa parks of twitter because i fucking tweeted that joke at that writer who said that fucking thing that no one's going to remember tomorrow

but we were all angry about um today jesus christ this is the first time i've had caveman coffee oh these nitros are no joke you're basically drinking adderall. Yeah, I Think I've never done Adderall, but Stan. Oh, I got Adderall offered to me before the Stan Hope podcast and He came up to me afterwards and was like Man, you fucking talked a lot that Adderall fucked you up and I was like I didn't take it like I had it in my pocket I was like that was just me being spazzy So I think what happens is so yeah, so you get that validation right? Yeah, the validation and it's essentially it's an exchange and I was an exchange Yeah, we're talking about with Twitter being like this you get this dopamine rush every time you tweet and refresh

And it's one of the main reasons why I don't interact with people online very much Yeah, very rare that I do and And when I do, I'm almost always civil. Yeah. Because I just don't think that, unless it's one of my friends, like I call Bert a fucking dork because he called himself the machine yesterday. The machine, I saw that. Like, come on, dude. I'm the machine.

I love him so much. That was years ago. Let that go, Bert. You got to move on. But I mean, that's just fake. No, no. Yeah. Yeah.

And I, um, I wasn't going to say off that with man, just a sort of sidebar with Twitter when all that shit happened to me and I got off all of social media. Well, you didn't explain what happened. Oh, right, right, right. Um, okay. So you're this super vegan feminist. Yeah. And again, like the ideas at their core right sexism's bad rape's bad like

these shouldn't be fucking controversial issues but when you take it to that extreme um that you were talking about where you're looking to sort of like who can i call a sexist today who can i call a racist today that's the thing it's like it's it becomes an attack machine yeah and uh yeah my my dad said that uh yesterday he's like if you go on the show you should say you're not going to be an attack machine i'm like what a dorky thing to say i swear to god i i emailed it to myself and now i can be like yeah all right rogan agreed you uh you and my pops uh yeah he's gonna be very excited um so yeah so happened. And what you were saying with the, the ally title, I was never comfortable with a lot of the, the, the stuff I got thrown into.

Um, you know, I was constantly saying either the wrong or offensive things on the show that we would have to, cause you're trying to be funny because I'm trying to be funny and we would have to stop and edit it out. I would feel like a fucking idiot. Because I'm trying to be funny and we would have to stop and edit it out. I would feel like a fucking idiot. And I remember I did a college once and it was the first time it's ever happened. Usually they introduce you by my measly credits. They would be like, he did Conan once.

And this time the woman at the college introduced me. She didn't give any comedy credits she just goes uh our headliner tonight is a male feminist and i remember going into the mic and being like that makes me sound like a rapist like it sounds so fucking creepy and that's what i was like labeling myself that was a label that was thrown at me and in my head i'm like well i don't hate women so i guess sure um but male feminist sounds like you're cruising around in a fucking male feminist van, being like, who wants equal pay? It sounds so creepy. But I took it because there is so much sexism on the other side that you're like, I guess, man, I guess being an ally is good, right?

That's like you're defending people, but then it gets to this level where you're like i gotta renew my ally dues and call somebody a fucking rapist um and that's where i got stuck so and then this so this is where it bit me in the ass so i come on this show we have the argument um about uh sexism uh went great well we had we had a discussion about daniel tosh about the rape jokes when when daniel tosh made a rape joke and and also there was this this weird definition that people like to use and i'm sure you're probably aware of the actual definition now of like how many rapes actually occur right which is it all came from a study that god i want to i want to say it was out of the university of ari But I forget where the study was. But they essentially looked at almost any uncomfortable interaction between a man and a woman.

Unwanted or remorseful sex was rape. A lot of different things. Sex while intoxicated was rape. There's a lot of different things that they used to define sex where they got to this one in five. Well, and this is another reason we need to have the conversation, right? Because, like, remorseful, I don't know what that definition is, but that doesn't sound like. I mean, many people have had sex.

I'm sure you have. And afterwards, like, what the fuck was I doing? Yeah. Well, some people want to call that rape. Yeah. But like if you're fucking blackout drunk and like the dude's not like, okay, that is. But if we can't have the conversations.

But if you're blackout drunk and the girl's not, did you get you get raped right because that's happened to me right that's happened to me too yeah um straight up uh has a girl ever hit you hit me physically i've had girls swing at me i i got uh they telegraph it they do they wind up and and they're and they're yelling which i'm told that's what they tell you to do in krav maga uh but they yell while they do. And I'm like, you can't yell before you throw a punch. I'm going to know the punch is coming. But these are stories that I couldn't even tell. I had a girlfriend try to beat the shit out of me when I was 20 years old. But it happened at the same time.

So I swear to God, I'm just dodging what happened. But I will get to it after this. I was breaking up with her. But it was at the same time that um do you remember dyphus it was like child services um dyphus that's what that was the acronym like i don't know maybe it was just like a jersey thing but it was child services essentially was at our house to do like an inspection essentially to be like is it fit to have kids here um because like my house was a disaster back in the day

why did they do it in spite were you guys thinking about having a baby no no no no we had like uh alcoholism in the family and like neighbors were complaining and screaming and like i was a fucking train wreck and how old were you um oh i was like oh no i guess i was like 19 but i was still living at home okay um and i'm one five. So I'm the oldest of five. So this guy, so I'm breaking up with my girlfriend, not knowing that this like Dyfus random inspection is going to happen. And this guy comes over

and he's this like older African guy. And he's sitting with my dad on the couch. African American or African African? African African. And... So the accent and everything. That's the one. I'm allowed to laugh at that now

you couldn't move yeah i can there's oh there's so many words i can say now it's a good time to be alive uh the word oh my god i was with my friend the first time i hung out with a comic uh this guy uh luis gomez do you know yeah so i was with luis and uh we were hanging out in la uh and i was telling him i think i want to do comedy again And he he made a joke with the word fingering in it And I started laughing like a fucking kid and I'm like I forgot how fucking funny the word fingering is It's a funny word. I felt like I came out of like a comedy coma I was like off fingering and midget and cut like there's so many good anyway, so So my girlfriend so I'm breaking up with her. Right. And she starts like swinging at me.

Okay. And she's like, you can't fucking break up with me. Like, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, I was like, hey, we can talk about this later. But like, there is a guy downstairs who is going to, with a hilarious accent, who's going to take, like, take my brother. She would have to like stop. And she's fucking swinging at me and swinging at me.

She didn't want to listen. Nope. And she's screaming. She was like, are you? So I beat the shit out of her. And then Jezebel wrote about it. And that's what happened. So I'm just like, kind of like covering up. And I'm like, you have to beat the shit out of her and then jezebel wrote about it and that's what happened um so i'm just like kind of like covering up and i'm like you have to stop they're gonna take my baby brother she storms off and i go downstairs and this guy from child

services is there and i look at him and i i'm like tears in my eyes i'm like please don't take my brothers like she doesn't live here she's just my girlfriend i broke up with her she's never gonna be here again like i'm so sorry about that and he just looks at me and he goes, and my dad, and he just goes, women are crazy, aren't they? And I was just like, all right. And that was it. He didn't give a fuck. Did not.

He was like, I've seen that before. And like, she got to leave. Wow. Yeah. You got lucky. I got lucky. Could have been an angry woman. Could have been an angry woman.

And we all would have been in jail. Okay. have been in jail um okay so i um am known as this male feminist um which again um and it kind of becomes my thing so i go on your show we argue about it because i'm like i don't have comic friends anymore uh so uh i i take this side um and i didn't hear all about the rape joke like i just heard all the whole daniel tosh story i I heard at the Stanhope show for the first time. Because the articles I read don't have the nuanced parts, right? Let's explain what actually happened. Sure.

Daniel Tosh was not supposed to be on stage that night. Daniel Tosh was just hanging out at the Laugh Factory. And his good friend Dom Herrera asked him to go up. And he said, I'll go. Okay, I don't have anything to talk about. He goes on stage. Everybody goes crazy. Oh, my God, Daniel Tosh is here.

This is amazing. And he goes, look, I don't have any material. I'm not even supposed to be up here. So what do you guys want to talk about? And some guy yells out, rape. And he goes, yeah. He goes, yeah, that's real funny, sir. What's funny about rape?

The humiliation, the violence. And this woman yells out, actually, nothing's funny about rape. Likeiliation the violence and this woman yells out actually nothing's funny about rape like very self aggrandizing and he goes wouldn't it be funny if five guys raped her right now like that that's the funny part that's like what a comedian does so that line was the line that

was circulating but even that first part not that that part was ignored conveniently the whole part where he's just like what's funny about it and like that's a good technically that's an anti-rape joke right um which if you know daniel that's how he thinks right he's not he's not a bad guy no and that's a great way but that has to do with these echo chambers where i'm like why didn't fucking hear that part of it um i just hear the part you just hear the part um that you're supposed to attack and then you, you know, ironically, I went to one of Bert's podcasts at the same festival, the All Things Comedy Festival.

And fucking Doug and Bert, like this whole rape thing happened in the audience. I don't know if you heard about it, but like all hell broke loose. A rape thing in the audience? Yeah. So like I don't want to be the one to blow up the spot. I don't know if Bert's going to air it. If he airs the Take Off From Work podcast or whatever, it's one be the one to blow up the spot. I don't know if Bert's going to air it. If he's going to, if he, if he airs the, the takeoff from work podcast or whatever, it's one of the best things I've ever heard.

But this. We can call him right now. Yeah. Cause I don't want to blow up his spot. But essentially what happened was they, Stan Hope. It'll just get people to listen. Good. Stan Hope started talking about rape and child rape and the whole show became very rape themed.

Right. And there was a girl next to me and there's a woman next to me and my girlfriend who just started screaming like, don't talk about it. And like, so they ignored her the whole time. And my girlfriend and I would look over and then she would like have another sip of her drink and watch the show and giggle and then rape will come up. And she was like, stop. And she would just scream. But like, she didn't, she didn't, didn't she didn't leave like she didn't get up and leave and that was like it was so interesting to be on like sort of the opposite end of that

where you know nothing offensive was really happening and i'm like fuck man i'm next to that lady from the toss show this is this is like my karmic fate uh and i'm just like she should go she should leave but anyway so i was on the not comic side of that. And by then I wasn't doing comedy clubs. I was never really accepted into comedy clubs. I'm just playing for my progressive audience at like a vegan coffee house. Like that's I'm just playing random like little rock gigs for like my audience. So again, echo chamber, right?

And I'm not hanging out with comics. So when people are like, why aren't you defending a comic? I'm like, I don't know, man, because I don't think I am one like I didn't really consider myself one. And so yeah, so me and you, me and you went at it, I believe it was very divisive. I think half your audience thought I was a whiny bitch and the other half thought I was a whiny bitch who should get raped uh it was very one-sided nobody liked me I was uh I did not come off well um I'm told and but I was like I guess I did the right thing right I guess I sided with women over over uh jokes and so from then on any comic that did like me didn't. Well, let me stop you right there. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm not trying to sound fake to me, by the way. For the sake of honesty, the real issue came not just because of that, but because of your characterization. The next day. Yeah. Totally. So the next day. There's a video out about it that someone put together called the Kilstein Delusion. Yeah, and some of that shit was taken out of context.

Some of that shit I will completely like own up to i watched it like once i mean at that point that point uh just all hell broke loose like i lost my uh i lost my managers i was having like a someone hacked my twitter and just wrote rape all over it and i was kind of like why'd you lose your manager uh they said it was because i i i don't uh cooperate with the comedy community uh to be fair to them i was like a pain in the ass client it was hard enough for me to fucking book and then every comic hates me and they're like i don't know man i think they just like threw their hands up um and so the next day was one of those things where i'm like i either doubled down um and like and I was like, it wasn't

like I'm like, I'm going to lie. It was, I'm going to try to defend myself and give like, you know, my side to it. And then I don't. Let me stop you here real quick because you're, we're going way, way, way back. The, the real issue, this is like a a year before more than a year before everything went sideways oh yeah yeah yeah so what what went sideways and why okay so you're this super progressive vegan guy but what went sideways so um an ex of mine um an ex of mine, I'm trying to think about how much I can say, started, it was weird. Girls I was dating, she would kind of pop up and be following them on social media.

And I kind of was like, all right, it's a little weird. Girls you were dating, but you were married at the time. So what was also not talked about in these articles is that for the last however many years before I was I got separated. We were in an open relationship We just didn't we talked about it on the show eventually, but for a while. We didn't talk about it and Which to anyone in a fucking open relationship like it's a nightmare when you're not talking about it because you feel like a lecherous cheating creep

Because you're in an open relationship relationship but you don't talk about it so then when girls meet you and you tell them yeah you go i'm like yeah right yeah totally when you go i'm in a secret open relationship they're like you're full of shit right um and so you know i like kind of did the road thing but like felt like a fucking creep and the road thing meaning hook up with girls yeah yeah and uh and then uh you know i was finally just like we have to talk about it and at this point and i don't want to shit on anybody uh you know at this point um you know my co-host and i we were like we were pretty much just like really good friends right who lived together and did a show together. And so years later, years after

me and this girl broke up years after all this shit, I'm living in LA. I have a girlfriend for a year. It's like a very healthy, wonderful relationship. Years after all this, I guess what happened was one of these girls essentially started to try to find any girl who has been pissed off by me before. And they found enough for an article that I think like two articles came out. I left Citizen Radio because the show was getting a ton of complaints because our inner circle started to find out that there were quote-unquote accusations, which the word accusation makes it sound Weinstein-y. Accusations of? So that's what, so this is.

They were saying, but it was very unspecific what I read. They said predatory behavior. And I was like, oh, meaning he's trying to get laid. That's what a man does. Like not predatory in the sense of you're victimizing someone or raping someone or doing something horrible to someone or even. And this is when my own words kind of bit me in the ass because you I spent an entire year or years being like, you know, hashtag believe women. And then you read that and you go, I hashtag don't believe women like you don't know what to do.

And like I was always like, if you call a girl who accuses you, you know, crazy, you're just projecting and like you don't know what to do and like i i was always like if you call a girl who accuses you uh uh you know crazy you're just projecting and like you're trying to and then suddenly i'm reading this article i'm like this is fucking crazy and i didn't uh all of my stuff on one article are you talking about the so there's a jezebel yeah there's a jezebel article and hell hath no fury like a woman's corn oh man i uh it was really bad and i read it for the first time and i don't want to go into details because i don't want to shit on people who like feel like they were, you know, hurt or whatever. But a good majority of the article isn't even fucking true. There was one part where Jezebel even wrote it. Like if we can make it about journalism.

It's not even say Jezebel because it's one woman who wrote it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. So this so the author, it's not even say Jezebel. Cause it's one woman who wrote it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Totally. So this, so the author, there's one moment in it and I'll try to make this, uh, about journalism and not about the,

the woman. But one of the complaints about me was I had a consensual night, um, with a lady in Nashville, um, who I guess because she like listened to the show, maybe they're like, that's predatory because you're like famous.

And I was like, well, no one else thinks I'm fucking famous. Uh, but wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. They were defining it as predatory because you're famous.

That's part of it. Every time Mick Jagger gets laid, it's predatory. That's part of it. That's what I don't, that's the thing. And by the way, fucking call me.

If I'm Mick Jagger famous, you can call me a fucking predator. If I'm I can barely get a plus one to a vegan festival famous. Like, don't please do not call me a predator. Well, I mean, look, it's there's levels to fame. Right. And I know you're being self deprecating and everything like that. But you did have a nice following and you did. I've seen I saw some of your videos online where you did big crowds.

Yeah. No, it's not like you didn't have fans. No. So you did have fans. But the idea that you liking some woman who's a fan and her liking you, like that somehow or another you're a predator because she enjoys your work is crazy. Is that how they were defining it? Because I don't know.

Yes. And then – That seems like being very convenient in their definition. Well, and that was part of it. There was like, there was another one where it was like, yeah, the predatory stuff specifically was that. And then what was even more fucked up about the article was it said, and I'm not going to quote exactly. She also wrote into another podcast and I heard this, but essentially what the woman said,

we did not sleep together. It alluded that we slept together. It didn't say that I was in an open relationship, but we didn't sleep together. She told me she didn't want to sleep together. And I was like, great, no problem. She's like, I don't want, I don't want it to go further than that, you know?

Okay. So I was like, cool. Even if you change your mind, we're not going to do it. Got it. And then in the article, in the article about me being a predator, it's like, I felt so safe and it was a great night. And I was like, this sounds like an article about me being a good dude.

And then it said, but then weeks later she heard on the podcast that she was just a quote road fuck. And then Jezebel in parentheses, this one author from Jezebel in parentheses said Jezebel could not find the clip. Right. Because it doesn't fucking exist because I'm not going to call someone a road fuck next to my wife on my feminist podcast. Not only that, you're not going to say it if you didn't even have sex with them.

And we didn't have sex. Right. So this is just they just decided to take this characterization by this one woman and that's it and flavor the article yes it's very unfair no and dude like so is this punishment you think for you because you somehow or another so that's why it becomes easy and and just to be like incredibly clear like if this woman was like hurt by that like that sucks man i've been burnt by girls hold on a second you didn't do anything if she didn't if she was hurt because you didn't eventually become her girlfriend right her boyfriend rather that's just on her sure um unless you're mischaracterized no no no no i'm just i'm

trying to be you're trying to be nice yeah well i assume she is probably you know i mean she's probably taken out of context as well. There's a real problem with writing things about people. And one of the real problems with writing things about people is they don't get a chance to respond in real time to the things you're saying. So you establish a narrative and then you keep going with it. You write paragraph after paragraph with no one responding to that. Months later, I saw the woman who wrote the article. There was a request in my other inbox in Facebook that you don't even see for a comment. So, I mean, she did reach out.

But at that point, I was literally Googling ways to kill myself. So, I'm like, I did not get back to her. So, you were Googling ways to kill yourself for real? Yeah, for real. Why? Because it's one article? So here's what happened. And this goes to your question before.

Because I had called so many people sexist, because I had sort of made my almost career by that, it was fucking fun, man. When people heard about this, like, and you see the headlines headlines and this is another like problem with like clickbait journalism the headlines look like i was fucking accused of rape there was a uh one article that used the word sexual harassment sexual misconduct was in all the headlines what is that i have no fucking idea i've seen that one about people connected to

harvey weinstein yeah like about ben affleck they call it sexual misconduct what does that mean like doing something that you don't think they should do what's really creepy legal and and i almost lost a job i did just lose a gig um because when you google me it's like sexual misconduct stuff and like that's really uh scary and again i don't want to be like you know who the real victim of harvey weinstein is jamie kilstein Kilstein. Let me just stop you right here. If you say like one more time, my fucking head's going to explode. Dude, I get comments like that. It's brutal.

Is it brutal? Is it as bad as, all right, I'm going to. I just want you to slow it down. I'm going to. Use it every now and then. Slip this coffee over here. You're breaking the like meter. I'm going to.

I do it too, man. A lot of people do it. It's an easy one to do. I'm going to switch to water. But, man. A lot of people do it. It's an easy one to do. I'm going to switch to water. But that word is a, it's an um. It's a, people use it as um. I know. I know.

It's okay. I do it too. Yeah. We all do it, but it's just, it's nice to know. Yeah. No. It's also a very progressive thing. Like there's a way like that people talk like when they're really progressive that like

you don't hear like left wing people talk. I keep getting fucked over by the progressives It's a way of appearing What's the word submissive or Passive yeah, it's not a it's not an aggressive way of communicating All right What if I said like but like I kept like punching the table like as I did it like I'm gonna fucking like let you know like.

Go to like step to me. Just smash up Paps. Can. So you got a bunch of people that were upset at you because you had embodied the quintessential allies. So it was there. Nobody had a reason to like me or to defend me on one half of the twitter sphere you had progressives who thought i was a sexual creep and then on the other half you have comedy fans who are like fuck this dude he's the one who called everyone a sexist you don't need to read the article if you see a headline i mean god i attacked so many people without fucking reading the articles right of

course there are people to this day that would come up on citizen radio that i don't know why i was mad at i would just figure out the story as we were covering it and be like yep fuck that guy i guess of course and so nobody there was no reason to root for me there wasn't a strong enough fan base it wasn't like if, you know, a bigger comic gets accused of something. Well, he has thousands or millions of fans and then this small community who are accusing him of something. I had sort of nobody. And when I burnt all the bridges in comedy and, you know, I never just showed up at clubs to do sets and stuff like that. I just had this audience and sort of thought I could never get fired, you know,

just had this audience and sort of thought I could never get fired, you know? Um, like when, when Allie and I sort of became more platonic before the open relationship, I mean, there were days it was, it was so, uh, you know, I mean, I would sleep on the couch, but there were days I would go on the road and I would not cheat. And I would go back to the hotel and jerk off. And like my orgasm was better. Cause I'm like saved citizen radio like i was trying so hard not to not to do anything like that and so anyway i lost yeah there was no one to root for me i just had this small audience the small audience either thinks i'm a predator or they're too nervous to say anything well you fit the quintessence you you there's a classic view of what a male feminist is and that classic view is a sneaky guy that is like getting in tight with women and saying all the things they really want to hear and the the classic story is that those women are never attracted to that guy anyway

and wind up and go and fuck some jock somehow okay i mean that's literally what happens like yeah you don't say like do you but it's just this thing that people There's it's just well. It's a cliche and I totally and I also think it was the Homophobic politician who sucks a dick right right where they're like ha right the super religious Guy who turns out to actually be gay like Ted? What is that guy's name Ted the guy from Colorado can we just say Cruz and start a bro? Ted Cruz right? It was definitely Ted Cruz Yeah, and so Ted Haggard Ted Haggard. Yes, and I used to have a bit about him and

Who didn't? Yeah, right and so this is what happens Yeah, this is sort of the the problem with acting like you don't have flaws. And I, I always did. I thought on the show, my favorite parts of my show were when I talked about, uh, depression or alcoholism and,

and we would get emails in from people who, you know, it said it really helped them. And I wanted to talk so much more about that stuff because I, I do think it's important to examine your flaws, but on a political level, I held myself up as like an untouchable. Well, I think you were doing essentially the same thing

that you were talking about doing on Twitter, where you're addicted to this positive response and you're addicted to saying these things about people and attacking people. It's a real problem on the left where there are people that essentially a giant majority of what they do is attacking people. Yeah. And you also get scared about what you can talk about. So one of the things that would come up a lot was like fat shaming stories on the show.

But what also came up was like, I fucking love jujitsu. And so we would get emails from people who were like, yo, my doctor just said like, I have to lose weight or I'm fucked or whatever. And the first thing I would recommend, like I would give diet advice and I would be like jujitsu, go fucking do jujitsu. And then we got countless emails from people who were like,

yo, I lost a hundred pounds because I did jujitsu. Yo, I just got my blue belt. Like I feel confident for the first time or whatever. And then we would get emails, counter emails being like, yo, I lost a hundred pounds because I did jujitsu. Yo, I just got my blue belt. Like I feel confident for the first time or whatever. And then we would get emails, uh, counter emails being like, I don't want you to talk about that because that's fat shaming to me. And I couldn't say that's fucking crazy. I couldn't say, why couldn't you say that? Because it would be fat shame in the box that I had put myself in.

I couldn't say that I was capable of saying it. I thought it, I said it off the air. But why wouldn't you see? This is where it gets real problematic when it comes to expressing your ideologies. Like if you can't be honest about your actual thoughts, then what you're doing is bullshit. It was bullshit. Yeah. And there is a the other side to the validation of once you find yourself in a box is the is the policing of it.

Yeah. So there's validation on one side, and then there's, oh, I can get kicked out on the other side, right? Like if I say this word, I can get kicked out. If I say that you should not fucking come down on someone for doing jujitsu and getting into better shape than you, if you don't want to do it, I'm not saying this guy's doing jujitsu,

so fuck you for being fat. I'm saying this guy's doing jujitsu. We should be proud of this guy who saved his life. That's not fat shaming. And there's so much of that projection from the left where, and on Twitter in general, where it's like, but why is that though? Like, well, I mean, it really is the ideology thing. It's like you are unable to criticize anyone that's in your team because this is essentially

what's going on. They're using the phrase fat shaming, which is obviously a progressive ideology. It fits right into it. But for someone to say that you're fat shaming by discussing people successfully managing their health, that's fucking insane.

That's where it gets crazy. But if you wanted to, you wanted to talk about yeah of course i did did allison want it as well um i mean i can't speak for her right but like you guys have conversations off the air about like this is crazy i would have conversations about that yeah and uh you know because you don't because fat shaming sucks right like if someone gets fired for being fat like that's the thing i feel like there's a middle ground i know it's a slippery road when you can't honestly communicate and this is what the debate

gets silenced it's done and that's what happens with you know i was listening to uh i think it was sam's podcast with the guy who got screamed off of that campus um sam harris yeah yeah yeah jordan peterson maybe oh no no the the guy that was a Halloween costume one yeah the from Yale it was him and his wife yes and he was just like he sounded like the sweetest guy and I just knew I was like I fucking I don't remember when but I can

guarantee there's an episode about that guy who was just like I was defending my wife I've given to progressive causes my whole life I just tried to talk to them and yeah he would raise his hand and they would call it like a fucking some kind of like microaggression or I don't I don't even remember. You know what happened at Evergreen, like Evergreen State College. I heard it on your show.

It was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I did hear that episode. Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a very extreme example where they were telling the president to put his hands down.

That's what I said, because you're making this you're being aggressive with your hands so he did put his hands down they started laughing right because that's what's really going on it's a game well and the thing is too it's like we have such legit racism and sexism in this country and i feel like we should be going after those issues right well? Well, that's why I think you are, this conversation is very important. Because you're an example of someone who got caught up in the ideology of things where your intentions were good in the beginning. But you got caught up in this whole left wing spiral. Yeah, that's the thing is if you go extreme right, I feel like, you know, if I had like a big like Nazi kill the Jews like closing prop bit I feel

like I would know I was selling out you know but on the left it's a creep man because you really feel like again the baseline of homophobia is bad sexism is bad racism is bad those are good things right so when it starts to to creep into the language

policing and stuff like that, at least for me, I didn't really notice it. I would notice it sometimes and be like, man, I wish I could say this. And I wouldn't, because I wouldn't want to get in trouble. And it bit me in the ass anyway. And, you know,

so the suicide stuff was like, yeah. Like I had nothing. Um, people on Twitter, you stopped doing shows. Oh, I got, I got a day job for the first time in like 15.

What are you doing for 11 years? Uh, jujitsu stuff. Um, and, uh, you know, but if even,

even this stuff, like I don't want to put that fucking job in jeopardy. Right. Like, at least it's something I love. And but, yeah, I couldn't perform. I didn't. Because, again, remember, like. So you felt like your audience was gone.

Audience gone. Oh, straight up. I mean, there was a Facebook comment. I had to stop going online. But there was a Facebook comment from the day before that was like, just so you know, you saved me from killing myself. There was a Facebook comment from the day before that was like, just so you know, you saved me from killing myself. And then the next day when all that shit broke loose, like, you know how you can like add a comment to your comment. It was like, fuck you.

I hope you whatever. Same person. Same dude. Like literally added it to his comment. But you need to think about some of the things that you said and realize that you didn't really mean them. But you were saying them because you want you're trading in the currency currency of political correct left-wing progressive ideology thinking right and you were you were getting from that but you got to realize these other people are doing the same thing like they don't really mean what they're saying they feel like they have to say fuck you i hope you die jamie kilstein yeah they

don't even know you well i think we have real problem, both left and right in this country with attacking people. And I hate to say this, but I think we have a problem with doing that with Trump because although he has done some reprehensible things and he said some really foolish things and his ego is ridiculous, there's a lot of things wrong with him, right? But the, Right, but the the attacks on him and all this attacking instead of sort of laying out a Better way instead of explaining what's wrong with it It's all insulting and attacking that doesn't fix anything and it's not going to and it also is gonna make his people double down Exactly, and they're not gonna want to listen either and that's what I that's what I noticed That's why you can never win a Twitter argument, right? You have like extreme one side and extreme other sides.

Like, cool, you're going to solve this in 140 characters? That's why. The problem is also people start insulting each other. It just doesn't work. No. It doesn't. It becomes a contest. It's like you try to do that and I go check and then you go check and then we move in

back and forth and you're trying to fucking get my king. Yeah. And then like people's Twitter bios or like their whole bios are like here's a list of people who blocked me it's like yo man if that's your fucking that's your resume that's your life accolades like that's such a bummer and i would have people blocked me and i never even communicated with them because i somehow or another i got on some sort of a list where someone decided i was a bad guy i use that app and I don't know how to reverse it because now I'm friends with the Legion of Skag guys

and I was like, oh, I think I blocked everyone. It's called like Twitter blockchain or something. Yeah. And so I would go to your profile. If like all of your fans are attacking me and I'm like, fuck this, I go to your profile and then I click it and it blocks everyone who follows you. Well, it's not just that.

Like people, there's groups that people have decided are problematic. Oh, I've seen that. They decide you're right wing or you decide you're anti-progressive or whatever. I'm like a hate list. I've been blocked by people that I'm like, I never even communicated with this person. I saw a screenshot of someone saying something absolutely ridiculous. And I'll go go oh my god i gotta go to this guy's page yeah and then i go there well i'm blocked yeah which by the way you

fucking dummies all you have to do is sign out of twitter and then i go to your page and i read it all uh-huh yeah you can't really block someone and like what i found no when i found myself like looking through all those i was like i need to fuck out of this so dude i i will say you're a cautionary tale oh my god yeah i will that's gonna be what my edinburgh show is called uh cautionary beta male tale are you gonna do an edinburgh show now dude i think so i all i want to do is be a comic i did stand up at burr's festival and it was so fucking fun i did it the night after stan hopes yeah podcast did you have like material written down? Yeah.

I had stuff about like this and I had been the first time you didn't stand up and how long? Well, if you're not counting like the weird, like slam poety music shows, I did like five, six years. And then it was the first time I've been on stage in a year. I mean, so first time you've been on stage in a year and the first time outside of doing, cause I saw something that you did, uh, where uh where you you you were doing like what you're saying like sort of slam poetry where you take these big deep breaths in between each line yeah you're it's almost a performance art piece

yeah this is doing actual stand if you don't pause you can't hear that they're not laughing my friend it's just you know you had a thing going on. It was a cadence. It was like, I'm a drummer. And also when I wasn't getting booked, like after 9-11, my stuff was really political and I wasn't getting booked in New York. So I would just go to slam poetry places. And I just made, if I had a gay rights joke, I'm like, oh, well, let's just do a three minute gay rights chunk. Right. And so I started to get booked.

But some of it was like really well written. I saw this one thing that you did in front of some big giant group of people about the Trump boys. Oh, that was at the Talib Kweli show. Yeah. All this shit happened like right after. Yeah, it was a real bummer. Right after I'm in L.A. Because I was suicidal in New York, which I've never talked about publicly.

Before. Before. I was very, very, very suicidal. Why? I was just in, I don't want to say, I don't want to be mean, but I was in a failed relationship. Right. And I didn't have friends and I wasn't doing comedy. Why didn't you have friends in New York

I had friends when I would do jiu-jitsu I had friends in Marcellos like those guys were absolutely like the best friends I had right but I didn't have I didn't feel like I had like a career and I had a couple friends I mean all of our friends were pretty much linked to that same sort of progressive circle right when I went home to see my brothers and I could talk how I wanted to and I could shoot the shit and I could like not police my own language. It was amazing. I would, I would go walk around blocks just to talk to my brother, Nick, like for hours. And we would just laugh and tell jokes and shit like that. And then I had depression forever and I've been self-hating forever. And you know, this is not, I can't by any means blame it on other people, but I remember, and this kind of ties in, this is really fucked up. This kind of ties

into what you were talking about with like microaggressions and, and, and stuff like that. I remember I tried to open up to somebody very close to me about being suicidal and they told me that, um, I, I forgot the progressive word word for it but they said it was like manipulative essentially that you being depressed was manipulative of me being suicidal by telling them i was suicidal because i was telling them like looking for help and now with that said the the people who are like if you break up with me i'm going to kill myself that's fucked up right right that's like holding them hostage or making them feel like they would be responsible that i guess i would consider that's manipulative right well it's certainly not good it's fucked up it's not healthy yeah totally and

but when you reach out for help like this fucked up and so i didn't i didn't feel like i had a lot of people i had my family and stuff like that and that's why one of the reasons I moved to L.A. is I came out to here and I did a big show. And it was great. And I love L.A. And I've always wanted to live here. So once my relationship ended, I was like, I've always wanted to go to L.A. I'm going to go to L.A.

So I go to L.A. And then. Fuck the winter, right? Dude, every New Yorker who's like, oh, fuck L.A. They're all like fake happy. I'm like, no, bro. They're happy, happy because it's gorgeous. And like we're eating avocados by the pool and it's sunny and everyone's really nice.

Duncan Trussell was like, I want to be a New Yorker, man. And now he's like, fuck that, dude. I did one winter. I'm moving back. It's the worst. He's moving back before this winter. He's like, I can't do it anymore, man. Dude, it's just cold and everyone's mean to you.

That's what I don't like, the mean part. Everyone's so mean. And jujitsu in New York, when like in the winter where you'd be so fucking cold and then you leave the gym and you're so hot, but you have your dumb jacket on. And then you have the subway and you have to rip your jacket off and you get off the subway and you're freezing again. It's like, fuck that. You know what the solution to that, by the way, it's non-vegan. Is that what it is? Merino wool.

What? Merino wool. What? Merino wool. Oh. Yeah, because merino wool, when you're wet, it retains heat. It also keeps you cool when your hunters use it. Oh, no shit. Yeah, there's a company called First Light, L-I-T-E, and they make really good merino wool clothing for hunting,

and they're one of the first guys to figure it out that's cool what it is is it's a natural fiber yeah wool and wool it's a weird thing like if you have a cotton shirt on okay yeah and you get wet from sweat like say if you hike up a hill but it's cold out then you sit down you will freeze your fucking ass off and it's really bad like you can get hypothermia that way but if you have wool on it retains the heat the body heat even if it's wet it's really weird so if you just wear a um a base layer yeah of merino wool like when you go out like in cold weather yeah you will get wet from the sweat but your body will retain heat oh man stay warm well now in la i got to pull up to

fucking henzo's my little prius and it's sunny i walk in i go train say bye to everybody and get back in my car yeah it's a different thing yeah you have to lay a towel down so you don't sweat through your seats yeah yeah yeah totally so uh so yeah so i moved to la and i met my girlfriend and it's like the most healthy wonderful relationship my poor girl my girlfriend was a comedy fan when she met me and not a feminist. And she saw me at Cobbs. I was one of the clubs that would still like play me. And I,

uh, and when we first met, I think she got excited that she was going to date a comic. Cause she's like a huge comedy fan, dude. Right. And you know, we moved in together and she would be like,

you know, this is exaggerated, but it would be like, do you listen to Bill Burr's podcast? Not be like, um, let me tell you why he's problematic and upholds the patriarchy. And she must've been like fucking shit. Did you really say that? No, but she's like, I'm dating the, but kind of, yeah.

The worst comment. And now once all this shit happened, I get to discover all these great people I wasn't allowed to watch. I'm like, did you know these Woody Allen movies are good? And I watched Manchester by the sea and it was great. When I met you, I met you, you were deep in the throes, or you were beginning your journey of progressivism. Yeah.

And you were on your way. But the first show we did was great. I don't think we even. No, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. I mean, but what I'm saying is, but I knew people that knew you from back in the day, like Stanhope.

Oh, right. I remember when Kirstie was just a comic. He was just a comic. He was just a comic. He was one of us. Yeah. And then you assume this identity. But all of us are susceptible to ideologies. I mean, like Jordan Peterson had a really fascinating take on Nazism

about these people that became Nazis. And what's most terrifying about it is that if you were in their exact same shoes, you are a human being and it is quite possible that you could have been a Nazi too. And that is terrifying to people. But that obviously that's a very evil ideology, but ideologies in general, we're all susceptible to them. I've been susceptible to ideologies my whole life and it's, I have a very addictive personality and I think that's one of the reasons why you and I connect like on jujitsu Yeah things along those lines because you get obsessed with these things and They become a part of your identity and I think for you

Progressivism was in that box. It was in that wheelhouse. Yeah, and we all crave Acceptance and comfort and and support and yeah a tribe right? Yeah And so and again with progressivism, it doesn't sound like an evil thing It's not like I was in a gang like no parents are warning kids like I hear Noam Chomsky Blasting out of his fucking stereo like that doesn't happen So you don't really it does it's really slow anyway it's really really slow big deal he talks like this it's not a problem i tried to ask him a relationship

question just to change it up and he was like i'm not gonna answer that did he say that yeah and i was like i'm sorry wow i was trying to be funny at the end of the interview what was the relationship question i was like what do you consider it was like love or like what's your whatever like oh no i was like i want to do like love advice with noam chomsky and it was essentially like no thank you yeah i'm wearing sweaters that's it that's how it goes yeah he's he's got a very distinct area that he operates yeah howard zinn i interviewed he was funny as shit was it howard was fucking cool he was spry yeah totally he was had one of his last interviews at his house. Spry's a funny thing to say with really old dudes. Dude, but that was the first thing I thought, where he pulled up in his little car, and

he had his Whole Foods bags, and he hopped up the steps. He was like, come in, I'll get you orange juice. And I was like, all right, Howard's in. And then he died a couple weeks later. It was one of the last fucking interviews. And he was like, that's where Matt Damon used to live. And I was like, cool, man. Yeah, he was awesome.

He was super cool. I did not see that coming,. Yeah, he was awesome. He was super cool. Like, I did not see that coming because he just was really high energy. He was self-deprecating in the interview. Dude, it was awesome. It was really fun. I think going back to this, one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you is because I think that this trap of falling into any ideology. I mean, I know a lot of people that get really wrapped up in right-wing ideologies I think it's a trap and I think that also this this tribal thing that we do attacking people that aren't on that tribe

It's a trap to them and you see it with its you get rewarded for like PZ Myers as a whole career from it yeah, attacking people on the other side instead of I Think there's a way to get these ideas across where you're not going to piss people off and I don't think pissing people off is I think there's certain comfort to it but there's also people gravitate

towards you because they don't want you to do that to them you know what I'm saying yeah and I think everyone does that you know like PZ I haven't been on Twitter in forever but he was always really nice to me but the people he's also arguing against are also kind of doing the same thing too. And I had this fucking revelation today coming in the studio when I was kind of like worst case, like battle planning. I'm like, ah, what if, you know, he really hates something I say, and we're going to get into a fight. And for the first time ever, I was like, oh, I could listen to him and ask a follow-up question like i could just because that wasn't an option before because you have your especially when you start going on msnbc and these news roundtables no one asks questions no one goes what do you mean by that right you guys went on once and you were talking now this is this is one time i actually got upset at you. Yeah. Not upset at you, but upset at the idea. Well, time to wrap it up.

I'm kidding. You were going on after Charlie Hebdo, and you were saying that the cartoons that they did were really racist. And my thought was, so fucking what? You know, even if they were racist, these people got gunned down and killed because of ridiculous religious ideology. And this is what this is about It's about not being able to draw Muhammad. Well, and I think that but you got wrapped up in this super progressive like defend but you're also it was so confusing to me because The term Islamophobia is a very interesting one to me because it's always used essentially on the left

It's very rarely essentially on the left. It's very rarely used on the right, right? And Islam promotes violence against women. It's very, in terms of like its suppression of women's rights, I mean, it's very ancient in its ideas. Well, I mean, most religions do, right? But that is a very uniquely suppressive one. I don't know. If you actually took the Bible literally, did you know that? Okay, yeah. If you take the Old religions do, right? But that is a very uniquely suppressive one. I don't know. If you actually took the Bible literally, did you know the...

Okay, yeah. If you take the Old Testament literally, right? Yeah, the Old Testament, I mean, selling your daughter into prostitution. Right, but we're talking about someone who is literally taking that version of it in practice

and killing cartoonists for drawing Muhammad, right? So here's what I think you should be able to... Here's what I've been trying to do, where it's like, I don't understand why you can't go, why you can't go, racist cartoons are bad and hacky. Killing them is worse, right? You shouldn't kill people.

Or if you go, you know, that Islamophobia, racism against Arab people who you're just going to assume are all Muslim and not just all Muslim, but all exactly all like extreme versions of that homophobic. Yeah, that's bad. But being sexist in the name of a religion is also bad. Right. And I think this is what you were talking about where it comes down to, well, you got to pick a side,

dude. It's either everybody's racist or every Muslim is a murderer. And it's like, you don't have to pick a side and, and, and post this fallout when I've been like, I mean, here's the thing.

I've been healthier than I've ever been in my life. My girlfriend is fucking wonderful I wake up at like 5 and I meditate And like Jiu Jitsu saved my fucking life Literally saved my life this year Being off Twitter Being off social media has been Fucking great it's been incredible

And getting to hear Like getting to listen to Sam Harris' podcast Getting to listen to your podcast Hearing both of you guys say like really progressive things. I don't think people know that. I think they do. I think you were just in an echo chamber. Well, I think if you don't listen to it.

What you're saying is pick a side. Here's the thing. No one's running either side. No. This is what's going on. It's not like it's the Dolphins versus the Raiders. Right, right. One team has very clear outfits and they're trying to move the ball across this line.

I don't know what any of those words meant, but I get you. You know what I'm saying. I don't need to really. I barely do. No fighting? But the idea is that these sides, they're very fluid. They're moving around all the time, and they solidify with resistance. Yeah, and I think when people hear

middle or middle ground they always see that as wishy-washy or not taking a side yeah exactly but i but i feel like there is still there's good middle ground like the the the the racism slash jihadism is really good right you can say that both are bad you can say that jihadism is bad you can say the fucking profiling muslims is bad i don't know what's so fucking hard about saying those things but also in in attacking all muslims what you are doing is solidifying their position as well and you're you're making it very hard for them to look all religions at one point in time were extremely rigid and like you said if you go back to the early days of Christianity, go back to the inquisition. I mean, they did some fucking unbelievably horrific things in the name of God and in the name of Christianity. Now, if you

look at where more moderate Muslims are today, you know, I mean, there's people that are reformers that are still, that still consider themselves Muslims. Like, um, I mean, there's people that are reformers that still consider themselves Muslims. They're great, yeah. I mean, there's a ton. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I guess, no longer considers herself a Muslim, but Majid does, Majid Nwaz. There's a lot of them who consider themselves Muslims, but they're moving towards a more progressive ideology. Now, this is possible, but it's only possible if you're not attacking. See, if you attack, then the more radical of that base, they lean to that and they lean to reinforcing their team.

Well, not only the more radical, but even just the younger ones where if you are a 16-year-old Muslim kid in America and you immigrated here because your fucking family got bombed in Iraq or Syria or wherever by us. And now you're being profiled and being called racist names here. It's like, that's how you make extremists. Yes. And so it's not only is the racism racist, but it's also fucking counterproductive in a lot of ways. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. It's like you are all these wars that we say we're doing to defeat Islam. They're also creating a fuckload of extremists who maybe would have been moderate, but now their house is in rubble. They don't have jobs. Right.

A hundred percent. And they're just like, well, I'm going to avenge my family. And this dude says I get to go to heaven. So fuck. Yeah. And this ideology and this, this point of view, it's applicable to this whole team mentality that we do with right versus left as well. Yeah.

And that in attacking, instead of explaining the positive aspects of your positions, instead of attacking the other positions and attacking and ad hominem attacks on these people and attacking their structure, who they are, attacking them as racist, as sexist, as homophobic, instead of reinforcing the very positive aspects of live and let live about being open-minded and yeah like being legitimately progressive yeah progress dude totally and i think that one of the things that i know i did and everyone i followed on twitter did in sort of the progressive world is you would like try to out progressive each other right so it's like somebody has a progressive take on the news how do i make it like dude when same-sex marriage became legal people be like yeah we'll tell that to the the people obama

droned it's like fuck can't we just be happy about like one thing or it's like they're finding ways like everyone likes cory booker what can i find that cory booker did that was like fucked up right or you know like the i feel like you gave another example, but it's, you know, I mean, that just happened with Rose McGowan a little bit. Right. Like she did this really brave thing by coming out against Harvey Weinstein. And then people are calling it like white lady feminism. And it's like the left is never going to win if you can't let the rape survivor come forward without attacking her for not being raped progressively enough. Like that's nuts. And I think that's one of the biggest problems everybody's trying to be the best example right the best example of being progressive and shit on someone who's less

progressive than you yeah or the most depressed right ramp up the radical aspects of your progressivism and the most depressed is that what you're saying the most depressed and like for like a white guy like me it was like well i'm not oppressed i'm not going to start calling myself like senior kilstein like i'm going to be the ally so i'm not oppressed because twitter was a great tool and is a great tool where we wouldn't have had a lot of like really big i think social justice victories without twitter and it became a really good like which ones well i think it became a really good like which ones well I think it became a good watchdog for the police violence, right? And I specifically Twitter and not just all social media in general

Do you think Facebook is more of an echo chamber like what do you yeah? I mean Facebook I kind of just I mean at least for me Facebook goes a little slower, and I mainly follow just friends on Facebook, but I guess you're right I guess Facebook and Twitter, social media. I think the problem with Facebook is that people have the opportunity to be too verbose. They can write these gigantic long screens and no one's going to fucking

read it anyway. You give people too much of an opportunity to be self-indulgent. That's all I did. That's all it is. And then you just see it and you see a word like racism and you go, I guess I like it because i don't want to not like the big racism of course i'm not going to read but then you also become i didn't read fucking articles if the progressive person i knew shared an article and the headline looked good enough i would share the article and then that's the

shit that happened to me how it backfired where i'm like how many people are actually reading these fucking articles reading the articles that say we could not find that quote or we could not find whatever so all this shit went down Jezebel writes an article about you some other people write articles about you and you just dropped off the face of the earth yeah so I figured fuck this I'm deleting my twitter yep so well I assumed I mean nothing I could say part of me didn't say anything part of me didn't say anything because I'm like, I no longer, I have to be a real person now. I can't do shows anymore.

So. Why'd you say that? Just because I felt like the only world I knew completely was crashing down and calling me things that I wasn't. And I already sort of burned comedy. Well, this is what I don't understand. I don't see the big accusation. I see them saying you tried to fuck girls.

Well, that's what, what happens is in my world and, you know, former world. Yeah. Pre, you know,

Weinstein and like, this is what real predators look like. It was just fun to go after him and to go after me. Right. But, and also, as you said, because you had go after him and to go after me. Right. But, and also, as you said, because you had sort of set yourself on it on myself.

Right. And so my girlfriend, when it happened, my girlfriend was out of town. I totally assumed she was breaking up with me. So I'm in LA and like, uh, my little part of my cat,

my girlfriend, I assume is gone. My family's talking to me, which is great, but none of my friends, here's something I'll say this about. This is one of the reasons I came back to comedy. Um, I mean, besides I always loved it and I missed it was the only fucking people that reached out to see if I was okay. We're comics, comics who I hadn't talked to in years. None of the progressive journalists, none of the people who knew about depression or suicide or whatever. I mean, I don't even know if they read the fucking

article like or if they just saw that word and was like, I will get in trouble if I I mean, Jim Norton, who I knew when I was 22. I probably asked him if I could do a guest spot for him at like the stress factory wrote me to see if I was OK. Like you wrote me a really nice email. Stanhope wrote me a couple of times to make sure I was OK. Like, you wrote me a really nice email. Stanhope wrote me a couple times to make sure I was okay. And Provenza, it was comics. Yeah, it was comics. Real comics realize that we're all fucked up. And I didn't go down your road,

but if I was in your shoes, I might have walked down your road. It's very possible. And to say that you couldn't, I would never be in that position. I would never do that. I would never say those things. That's disingenuous. It's not true. Right, right. I didn't grow be in that position. I would never do that. I would never say those things. That's disingenuous. It's not true. Right.

Right. I wasn't, I didn't grow up in your house. I didn't live your life. I don't have your experiences, your genetics, your, your, your environment. I didn't have those things. If I did, I easily could have gone down your road. Yeah. And you know, that definitely months later when I reached out to Stan Hope, I just reached

out to thank him. And I said something that made him laugh and he was like, you could come back to comedy. And I was like to Stan Hope I just reached out to thank him and I said something that made him laugh and he was like you could come back to comedy and I was like no I couldn't you definitely could well yeah and he was the one and man after doing that festival and just hanging out with like hanging out with just fucking Burt and like Ari and like we have fun dude it was so fun it was so

we do man we have fun professionally that's all it is and everyone that's what this fucking podcast is and you know what's crazy my girlfriend. And everyone. That's what this fucking podcast is. And you know what's crazy? My girlfriend said this, where we were talking about this, where those guys will ball bust more than anybody. Right. I walked backstage with my girlfriend, hugged Morgan Murphy.

She said, please don't rape me. Hugged Bert. Hugged Bert, who just said, he's touching my dick. He's touching my dick. And started running around the room. And then they had my back so fucking hard. Of course. Whereas when I was around, progressives were when Diana and started running around the room and then they had my back so fucking hard of whereas When I was around progressives or when Diana and I were around they don't ball bust

But they do not have your back it is icy judgment pretty much around the clock Well, they feel like they have to know when to cut you off if you do anything there you cross the line, right? And it was it was so wonderful where I was like all I wanted so before that yeah i assumed i had nothing was literally uh did you know when you google how to kill yourself the first website that comes up is it's a lie it's they say like easiest way to kill yourself and then you click it and it's like just kidding don't kill yourself and it's like harp music and you're just like being rickrolled essentially by like a suicide like hotline it's nuts and then that would make me kill myself that's what i was saying i was just like i needed someone i could trust in my time of need and

they're lying to you and then i just started looking through ways um where i was like i don't have a gun um get a gun i would now i'm gonna dude when this fucking happened i'm gonna get a gun i'm like i'm gonna kill animals i'm like, I'm going to kill animals. I would fucking ballistic. But how did it go from, how did you stop being a vegan? What happened there? No, I mean, I still am like. Dude, you ate a steak with Stan Hope.

Well, but that doesn't count, right? Fuck, it doesn't. If it's Doug. How many times have you eaten meat since this all happened? Be honest. Not many. I hate that I have to say be honest, but I know I have to say that. Look, let's just go back to me being an accused predator.

I'll give less shit for that. I have meat that I killed personally. No factory farming. You could eat that. Oh, yeah, we could do that. I'll give you some of it. Yeah, I'll do that. Okay, so there you go. Straight up.

Wild animals wandering through the woods. No, he's going to. He's going to? He's going to eat it here. Should we all do it together? We could, you know, but I don. No, he's going to. He's going to? He's going to eat it here. Should we all do it together? We could, you know, but I don't know when that's going to happen. I can give you some meat right now. All right.

Keep me posted. Ian's not here. I will. I have two commercial freezers back here. Do you? Yeah. This place is fucking insane. It's pretty wild, right?

Yeah. It's fucking insane. I needed a fun house. Yeah. I'm so excited for like the mats. Yeah. That comes this weekend. Does it? Yeah. Dude. That comes this weekend. Does it?

Yeah. Dude, that's fucking great. So this, this whole journey that you've been on, and this is again, one of the reasons why I want you to come on. I think we can all learn something from it. Yeah. And I hope both communities learn something from it. I mean, maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I really think like we, this idea

of right versus left is so goddamn crazy and we have more common ground than we don't and i think reasonable people think all these these core tenets that we we were just talking about like we think that we're egalitarian we think that women should be treated exactly the same way as men that you should be judged by your character you shouldn't be judged by the color of your skin or where you from i mean the the people that i know that are cool people we have we have black friends we have asian friends we don't like especially in the world of comedy the the only currency that you carry around is your personality and whether or not you're good yeah whether you're funny whether you work hard and when you're around people that are funny and work hard they those people are fuel dude they're inspirational totally and and i'll say this that

i was not a good person i don't think at least to the standard that i i would like to hold myself when i was just like wrapped up into this world i was very narcissistic well yeah i'm still flawed we all are but you were using a flawed operating system yeah and also like but i was just i was just desperately searching for validation i was very selfish um i was really depressed and ever since this happened i i don't fucking i have not what i barely watch the news when people are like trump called north korea gay i'm like i don't know not to me like i don't i don't watch that shit anymore so you just stepped back i totally stepped back but ever since a full year yep um but i mean it wasn't i'm saying this right now like i'm like you know i'm just like walking the roads like why shang kane i was like in the first i forgot about him

i know he's the best did you ever watch kung fu the legend continues not as popular uh i fucking love it as good quite as good. No. Well, but I was like... It's different times. Yeah, it was like him. Less innocent. It was, he was still, it was modern day, he was still quite chancane, but his son was like a street cop. It was the fucking, it was the best. Oh, that's right. It was so good. He had a son. And so,

yeah, so the first... That guy died with a dildo up his ass. Hanging by his neck. Crudging him? Yeah. David Carradine? That was not on the list of suicide options. He looked a dildo up his ass, hanging by his neck. Crudging him? Yeah. David Carradine? That was not on the list of suicide options. He looked up, dildo in the ass, hanging? They think that he might have done something to piss off Thai gangsters, because he died in Thailand, and he died in what would be considered either a shameful way.

I mean, it was auto-erotic asphyxiation was what they listed. But what I've heard is, by the way, that means nothing. But what I have heard is that there are people that consider the possibility that he was murdered. That's the craziest shit I've ever heard. They hung him and put him in a wetsuit and shoved a dildo up his ass and stuff like that. Well, look, I can't complain about my life anymore.

I didn't have a dildo shoved up my ass by Thai gangsters. Apparently, he wasn't a nice guy. Really? Well, that whole taking the show from Bruce, I don't know how much he had to do with it. Taking it from Bruce Lee? Yeah, that was Bruce Lee's idea. He was probably just an actor. Yeah.

I doubt he had any power. It was probably just his people, right? Yeah, nobody knew who he was. Totally. If no one knew who he was, he had zero power. Yeah, that's very true. Oh, what I was going to say is, yeah, I don't want to act like this fucking hero who just stepped back.

The first six months I walked around like I was accused of actual sexual crime. I had a hoodie and fucking sunglasses. And I felt when I would meet new friends, I would sit them down and be like, just so you know, like there's something I've been accused of. Like I was a fucking Megan's Law pedophile. And it was only till recently when my girlfriend's like you gotta stop dude like you are owning that you're owning that as like a part of your your person when you when you do this and to a certain extent i have to right like if i meet with like an agent like and they google it

and they don't read it it looks fucking shady it's not but it looks shady and all people do is they google and they look at a headline and they go oh oh, fuck that. I don't want to be around that. Right. But for the second six months or whatever, I feel like I have been my family is like this is the most present and communicative you've been. I feel like I've been a better friend. My jujitsu has skyrocketed. I feel like I have a family at my jujitsu school.

Like I've become a really good teacher. I read more. I fucking meditate more. I'm like an awesome boyfriend. Like I have such a really good teacher. I read more. I fucking meditate more. I'm like an awesome boyfriend. Like I have such a good, healthy fucking relationship. And I don't think any of that shit would have happened if I was still in social media world. If I still just woke up every day and was like, what's the hashtag that I have to tweet about? What are we angry about today?

Because that's how every day starts is you check Twitter and you go, oh, there's a popular hashtag. I have to come up with a fucking joke because trump did a thing and it drove me crazy and there's part of me that i i'm like maybe i'm selfish but i i just i would rather be a better person now and try to be a comic i also forgot that like comedy fans just love comedy like when people came up to me after the stanhope show I wasn't political on the Stanhope show but they were like hey man that was really funny and I was like oh that's right like you don't have to be overtly fucking preachy or political to like make someone's day right like it sounds so cheesy the currency that you were trading in I just thought you were trading in progressive currency yeah and I thought dude the

best stand-up I ever did was a story about my dad and I almost didn't tell it. And I was with Janine Garofalo, who's very political in New York. And I was telling her the story that happened. We were just walking on Union Square

and she goes, you have to tell that on stage. And I literally said to her, I go, but it's not political. And she was just like, no, you have to tell it on stage. It's a good story. It's about a relationship.

It's about your flaws. It was totally about me being flawed and fucked up. And was the the most enjoyable time i i had on stage was talking about that and that's what i want to talk about now is just like all the depression and flaws and fuck ups and stuff like that well don't be a human just don't define yourself don't don't box yourself into some weird category and that was the problem um But I felt like I could only talk about that stuff. It would be like if you could only talk about UFC and you're like, I want to talk about other shit. Well, I've been very fortunate that I don't have to just talk about that.

But I think I've been very conscious about avoiding weird boxes. I mean, I've been stuck in some in the past. But I think that you can navigate this world of social media, but it takes diligence. And I think that we're the first generation of human beings that have had to encounter this weird environment. I mean, this is not an environment that our parents grew up in. No.

So it's not like there's like a body of information that we can draw upon. Yeah. You know, it's not like a lot of people have sort of figured it out over the last hundred years and this is how you manage the winter. No. Yeah. You gotta have firewood and you gotta do this and you gotta make sure that you drink a lot of water when you go into the mountains.

Fucking move to LA. There's, there's no, you know, there's no history. Yeah. So. And you become. People make mistakes. You become really dependent on it. It takes discipline, man.

I was like, I like logged onto my Twitter the other day for the first time to like follow you guys and be like, ah, am I going to tweet anything? And I didn't because I just like saw those notifications and I'm like, there's some dark shit behind those notifications that like, I'm like, I'm not clicking. Yeah, you just can't be reading it and definitely don't argue with people online. There's no benefit to that. I've almost essentially totally stopped doing that. Occasionally I'll fuck with someone if i just am in the mood for it but the vast majority of the time my phone is like this no yeah face down i think uh i forget if it was like uh

jocko or tim ferris or one of those guys but talking about like uh putting on airplane mode like an hour or two before you go to bed and then like not turning that shit on until like i'm sort of doing all that and i just feel so much healthier and like i'm telling you that when i was attacking people on twitter every day i was depressed as fuck and straight up suicidal and projecting and i was just miserable um and and that happens it's a rush you have a community you have people who go you tweet i'm having a bad day and you got a hundred people being like, dude, you're awesome. You know what I mean? Like that shit's addictive.

Like it's really addictive. Of course. Yeah, it is. And that's, you know, that whole sympathy mining is something that a lot of people do do. Oh, I did all that. Yeah. Sympathy mining, um, you know, virtue signaling. It's like, there's, there's so many different things that people do.

Virtue signaling again. Uh, I think it's what you've been doing so many different things that people what's virtue signaling again I think it's what you've been doing for like oh cool Okay Yeah, I mean this this it's a really simple Sort of way to get love. Yeah, I mean it's it's and then what sucks is like the important issues Also get pushed aside. Yeah, right like cuz this isn't like whether or not Trump's gonna go to jail You know what the fuck we're talking about that before the body literally is he going to jail?

I'm going to jail. I opened up CNN today for the first time like I guess if I'm going on Joe's I should know what's going on the news. I'm like, I don't know what the fuck is going on I saw Kevin Spacey. I saw like people getting arrested and I was like I'm out. Well that Mueller guy's not playing games No, he's not fucking around yeah and he's i mean that guy was the longest running head of the fbi since j edgar hoover he um and he has like painstakingly broke down this collusion with the the russians situation yeah and what it seems to me as an outside person who doesn't really pay too much attention to politics, if I was going,

I would look at it like the mob. If I was going to attack the mob, I would go after some low level people first. Get them to rat? Yes. That's what he's doing. He's bringing in these dudes that were, you know, Manafort.

And he's bringing in these dudes that were running the campaign. And Trump is unhinged today. Trump is making a bunch of- Is he losing it? Yeah, it's great. But you know what's interesting, too? Then it just came out that Hillary and the DNC funded the dossier on Trump, and they

spent millions and lied about it for the past year, which is, by the way, you're trying to influence the political process as well. And you're doing it by what you know is fiction, a fictional story on Trump with hookers peeing on people and shit like that. So everyone's dirty. And this is, I think, really important. I think the right has to recognize that you're in a situation where you absolutely have people that have colluded with Russia.

situation where you absolutely have people that have colluded with Russia. The left has to recognize you were in a situation where you had a really corrupt career politician who almost got in and don't hold her up as some sort of high standard for womanhood and progressive ideas. This is a woman that didn't even believe in gay marriage until 2013. Oh, dude, I said that on stage when i was like when if you criticized hillary or the people would say you're not a feminist and i was like first rule of feminism like don't kill a bunch of fucking women overseas you know what i mean like you can't that was another problem with like my whole thing is we couldn't if you criticized a woman it would be

one thing if you said i disagree with hillary clinton's foreign policy that's not that should not be called sexist if you were like i disagree with hillary clinton's foreign policy that's not that should not be called sexist if you were like i disagree with hillary clinton's foreign policy what a whore it's like okay well that's that's unnecessary but you couldn't people were afraid to criticize you couldn't say she is a known liar because they would say well that's a dog whistle that's what you call crazy ladies it's like no that's what you call a fucking politician well when they're crazy ladies you should call them crazy crazy lady politics or just crazy person Well, just not be specific to gender. Yeah, and it's also like yeah like the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing where it's like I don't hate her cuz she's trans I hate her cuz she's kind of a cunt like she's A little bit of a fucking well, I can't think about Caitlyn Jenner Caitlyn Jenner doesn't believe in gay marriage right which is fucking

Patently insane right and that's what people need to know. This is a big male Kardashian. That's what it is. Who became a female Kardashian and got what he wanted, which is massive amounts of attention. If you go back and look at Bruce Jenner when he was Bruce Jenner and then look at Caitlyn Jenner,

goal achieved. Massive amounts of attention. People celebrating. You're a hero. You're amazing. Same dumb person. Yeah, and Caitlin's killing it. Massive amounts of attention. People celebrating. You're a hero. You're amazing. Same dumb person. Yeah, and that's the thing is I feel like you should, and it sounds like such a, like it's easy for me to say because I'm like a white dude. But it's like I wish you could just judge people as being people.

Now, we have systematic oppression of certain groups of people, right? And I think a lot of people who say, just judge people as people, they're saying that while there's like a Black Lives Matter rally. And it's like, well, all right, not the best time to like say it, right? But. Well, the only reason why Black Lives Matter works at all is because it's an issue. It's a huge issue, right? See, like White Lives Matter doesn't work. at all is because it's an issue. It's a huge issue. White Lives Matter doesn't work. No.

See? It's very silly. It's real simple. Yeah. Like, the only reason why people go, well, you know, all lives matter. Okay, but no one, see, there's a reason why no one's saying White Lives Matter. Right. Because the white people aren't being oppressed.

Well, and people were like. Even if you disagree with Black Lives Matter as an organization. Yeah. Because it was kind of run by one of them was a really not really a black guy you know the whole sean king thing i don't know i think he followed me on twitter i'm just gonna shut up he's kind of a fake black guy but there's there's a lot of issues there's a lot of issues for sure with racism in this country yeah and when you have a group that addresses those issues and the group gets attacked by people, you got to wonder like, why is that group getting attacked?

Yeah. And I'll even bring this back to like, even with the rape culture stuff, which I did not think I would be saying on the show again, which is that you'd have guys online who every time a woman got raped, they would be they would be like what about men who get raped and you go well that's awful but why do you only say it when we're talking about a woman being raped or why do you only say all lives matter after like a black kid was shot right it's all the yeah buts yes yeah yeah but but but but what about us it's like it cannot be about you for a second and i was just as guilty of that. Like black lives matter when they go,

Oh, well they're racist against white people. It's like the title itself, black lives matter. That's a low bar. They're just saying we exist, right? Like,

look at us, like, look at us being gunned down in the street. Look, it's being killed by cops, right? It's not saying black lives matter. Therefore,

like white people should be killed by cops. Like there's nothing like that. People get so mad when it's not their group well and they always want to concentrate on people that are black that make ridiculous claims like instead of just looking at the idea behind why was black lives matter formed then they start looking at black people that make ridiculous claims like black people can't be racist because racism is power plus influence and prejudice, which is just not real. And that's the same shit that people on the left would do where they would just sort of

like nitpick at these very specific little arguments. And it's like, there are bigger things to fucking worry about. Right. Yeah. And I think that's why an organization like Black Lives Matter gets any heat at all. Because, right, if people just said, yeah, of course, cops are absolutely shooting black people at a disproportionate rate. I mean, if you just look at these incidences that we've been forced to see in the news, there's been so many of them. And these people march.

And what about that one black woman who got pulled over and refused to put out her cigarette? And the cop was telling her to put out a cigarette. And she wound up being dead in her cell a day later. Oh, I think that was Sandra Bland. Yeah a cigarette and she wanted being dead in her cell like a day later i think it was sandra bland yeah yeah she was just like hung in her cell that is a fucking so creepy insane story that woman that cop was a piece of shit i mean the way he was communicating with her he was not communicating with her like she was a woman that just got pulled over for speeding right he was communicating with her like she was under him like it was like he had to he had to force his power on her.

I mean, we've seen that kind of shit before. And if that's not racism, it's absolutely shitty policing. Well, and that's the thing. That's what we should talk about. And that's like what we were talking about with the Islamophobia, where it's like you're also being counterproductive. Right. Like you want to say that the cops want to go with like Blue Lives Matter, too. It's like, cool. Why don't you guys should be the most mad when there's douchebags like that who pulled over Sandra Bland.

Right. You guys should be the most mad to clean up your fucking organization, to clean up your shit. And you should be on the front lines. Right. How powerful would that be? Like them on the front lines with Black Lives Matter. We don't want that shit in our precincts. And by the way, it's not even just about the way they attack black people you saw

that woman in utah that was arrested because she refused to draw blood on someone who was in a coma no i didn't see it you didn't see that no i've been offline my friend someone got taken into custody or someone got taken to the hospital rather uh the cop showed up and demanded blood be drawn without this person's consent which is against the law yeah she rather uh the cop showed up and demanded blood be drawn without this person's consent which is against the law she said no the cop arrested the woman now he's been fired i think most people are unqualified to be police officers it's a big job it's a big job and i think that there it should be much more respected it should be a much more difficult position to attain. And I think that herein lies the problem.

You're asking regular people to deal with insane amounts of power, literally the ability to pull the trigger on a person and end their life. And we've seen time and time again people get away with ending lives in a way, in a matter that we, the citizens, don't agree with. Yeah, and the bar is kind of crept, right? Where now the things that you should be using hand-to-hand combat for, you're using tasers for. The things that you should be tasing for, you're shooting, right? But see, here's the thing. You can't expect the average police officer to be able to use hand-to-hand combat on some person when they have no idea what that person's skill level is.

Yeah, unless the cop is fucking Stipe Miocic. What are the odds you're going to come out ahead? You might get your fucking gun taken away from you. You might get shot. I don't think they should have to use hand-to-hand combat. I mean, look, it's a fucking insane position. Or at least be trained better, right? Like people should not be dying.

You shouldn't be tasing like mentally ill people who are having heart attacks. Well, there's also, there's a lot of like really frail people that are police officers. I've seen them. There was some guy that was the other day, they were pulling this guy over and they had this guy out on the curb. And I looked at this guy, he had a little pot belly, these little skinny arms. Well, that's adorable. Not really.

Oh, okay. I'm looking at him like, I'm like, this guy is a victim. Like, if someone just decided to turn on him and punch him in the head, he would be unconscious. Right. And he's a cop. And he's like this frail cop. Dude, I used to have a friend who did, like, psychological profiles for people who wanted to get in the police academy. And she told me some of the answers for, like, why these guys wanted to be in the police academy and she told me some of the answers for like why these guys wanted to be cops like one guy she said literally wrote like in his essay like

i want to become like a police officer so i can finally get the respect i deserve oh jesus christ well i mean they didn't she didn't like you know he didn't go through but it's like there are those people not all cops hashtag there are those people who are just like they just want fucking power they want sure they got fucking bullied they got and for every guy dumb enough to say that on his application how many guys just internalize? That's what I was saying all that guy had to do was not fucking say that right and like that guy was so nuts enough That he's like you know what they'll understand. They'll see where I'm coming from and he fucking wrote it down There's so many fucking people that they need I mean There's a lot of people that don't want to be police officers. Like, in L.A. for a while, they had these giant billboards where they're advertising how much you get to start.

Oh, they're having trouble, like, recruiting and shit? Yeah, because nobody wants that job. You're essentially the professional enemy. Right. You're pulling people over. Most of them have committed some sort of a crime. They're going to lie to you. You're dealing with liars all day.

Right. Yeah, Jesus. I never thought about that. Dealing with liars all day. Yeah, Jesus. I never thought about that. But that's another thing where if you also can't, just like the cops should be trying super hard to get rid of the bad ones. If we demonize every cop, then those cops who have like a really hard fucking job are going to be like, well, fuck you guys.

You know what I mean? For sure. Again, it's that balance where, and so much of it comes down to just like the economy and people's life sucking, right? Like it's really easy, for example, for people to shit on these like black, like inner city neighborhoods and they go, well, why don't they call the cops? Why is their neighborhood trash? It's like, well, cause they call the cops and then their dog gets shot or whatever. Sure.

And so it's like people just need. I think that's why you saw like Trump and Bernie. Right. People need fucking jobs. They want to take care of their family. They're not reading Twitter or the news like I used to or that most of us, most of us who live in this Twitter bubble, all these fucking so many of these progressive journalists I hung out with who were like 99 percent, like so many of them were like fucking just spoiled rich kids who wanted

to feel oppressed. You know what I mean? Dude, you know, uh, I hang out with all my like white journalist friends were like white kids. I'm like, I see more diversity and fucking jujitsu than I ever did with the people who are constantly talking about diversity it was a bunch of white kids trying to feel more progressive or more intelligent i'm very much including myself and then i started going to jujitsu and i was like ah that's what a mexican looks like you know what i mean yeah i well getting back to what we're saying i think that

one of the good things about these groups like Black Lives Matter is regardless of whatever controversy, it's forcing the conversation. You have to have it. You have to have that. I just think they have to be careful with what they do, like when kids get crazy and they want to block off the highway. You know, don't do that kind of shit because that gives people a very bad impression of what your organization stands for. And you're blocking off the highway and that could stop people from saving your mom who fell down and broke her head open. I mean, you're going to block off the ambulance. You're going to block off people that have to make a flight.

Right. And you're saying, well, yeah, that's how you make noise. You cause people inconvenience. No, you disrupt the very systems that we need in order to make civilization run correctly. So you don't have to do that to get attention. So you're saying you still, okay, okay,

got it. Because the, the problem is, and this you can blame on the media where it's like, those are the only protests that get covered. If you have a, a peaceful protest with speakers, you know,

standing out for it is outside of someone's congressional office, then it's like, that shit doesn't get covered. I remember going to protests. Hold on a second. You're right. The media. But I think the media is slowly but surely becoming irrelevant. I do too. The real media is what's...

The only reason why the news, we don't even have to name an organization, but in quotes, the news is the news, is because they have a long history of disseminating information. Right. But people, regular people are doing that now. A lot of people are doing that now through different websites and YouTube channels. And I think that that's the future. And we don't have to be as long as you're honest and you have a real objective point of view. You don't have to be sanctioned by some gigantic corporation to get the fucking truth.

No. In fact, you you're less likely to get the truth out because of your sponsors. Because I mean, MSNBC is owned by GE. MSNBC is the quote unquote liberal network. And they're owned by like a company that like fucking profit off a war. Dave Rubin had a post that he did today to go to Dave Rubin's Twitter page about why people distrust the media and why the media is garbage today in their coverage of this Kevin Spacey thing. Because all of these different outlets were saying that Kevin Spacey came out as gay.

That was the name, the main headline. Wasn't he trying to fuck a kid? Yes. Kevin Spacey came out as gay. Kevin Spacey came out as gay. That was the main headline. Wasn't he trying to fuck a kid? Yes. Kevin Spacey came out as gay. Kevin Spacey came out as gay. This was like, let's have him pull it up. Yeah, that sounds like

we should be applauding. Well, this is, but this is, it just shows you what it is. Like, look at this. Media. Why, scroll up,

why doesn't the public trust us? Because this. Now look at this. Actor Kevin spacey decides declares he lives as a gay man kevin spacey announced sunday night that he will live as a gay man i mean look at all these different the new york daily news reuters the daily beast they're saying that he's gay but they're saying he's gay because a kid came out where a man now came out and said kevin tried to fuck him when he was 14 jesus so this is like saying that he declares he lives life as a gay man god damn

it that's not the story no that sounds like a festive thing we should all be like congratulations to kevin spacey not only that he said this in this statement where he was apologizing for this thing so like this this is so crazy well and also that's how they choose but they choose to frame it that way because someone coming out is going to get a lot of people paying attention right well and also i i don't the the link to link pedophilia always to homosexuality isn't true like there are a lot of of people who consider themselves heterosexual whether it's in the church or or whatever who are are raping kids because it's a power thing and they're sick or pedophilia is just different being attracted to kids is different than being attracted to like like men and this is like also really dangerous for

to equate like uh trying to fuck a 14 year old with just like going down to west hollywood to like yeah do some gay shit. Well I mean he hasn't admitted that he did it and he said he doesn't recall it at all but he did say that he had a problem with drinking and you know if he did do anything he was very sorry and we're

talking about something that happened at least 30 years ago. Right. So here's also a problem and this is this needs to be addressed because we really don't know whether or not this guy's memory is accurate because something 30 years ago the problem with being 14 years old is first of all 14 years old you're so goddamn confused i don't remember shit you don't remember shit you are a wash in hormones and confusion and insecurity and he might have had that was like the last five years of my life too. And he might have had some weird-

That was like the last five years of my life, too. Yeah. He might have had some weird run-in with Kevin Spacey that may or may not have been sexually predatory. I don't know. I don't know what happened. Right. But to decide that he's absolutely telling the truth

and Kevin Spacey is absolutely covering this up by coming out as gay. Using that to sort of diffuse the situation. This is sort of the, this is almost the opposite of when Twitter declares you guilty. This is like the news declaring you almost like innocent, right? Where I don't know what happened to letting courts decide and talk about people being accused and whatnot where Twitter can just like be like if they say you're done Like you had John Ronson on right? Yes. Did he talk? Did you read that publicly shame? Yes, so good Yeah, it's really good. And it's just like man these people's lives are done and I was part of all that shit

I tweeted about fucking Justine Sacco. Yep straight up I did and I read that book and it's like yeah, you don't you don't Think of that, you know what I that book and it's like, yeah, you don't think of that. You know what I mean? Well, because it's a free shot. I mean, that's, look, the worst example of that is people that are completely anonymous, right? You weren't completely anonymous, which is why you faced the blowback. Right, right, right. But there's a lot of people that just have a Twitter egg and they, I mean, they're completely

anonymous. They have a bunch of random letters and numbers as their name, and they fucking attack people left and right. It's a common thing on Twitter. We're seeing a new kind of interaction with human beings. This interaction where there's no social cues involved. There's virtually no repercussions for saying the most evil, vile shit. Then people take it as a badge of honor that they've been blocked. Right.

Right. Right. Yeah. And make it their Twitter bio. Yeah. I mean, so it's, it's weird times. Yeah, man. I just wish, uh, I mean, being off Twitter has, I wish it didn't happen in such a horrific

way, but has definitely made me like, I talk to people more now. I talk to people who disagree with me. I'm like, I look people in the eyes more than I used to people who disagree with me i'm like i look people in the eyes more than i used to i like i'm not checking my phone but don't you think this is a good thing to you ultimately to like because how else would you have escaped i wouldn't have yeah i mean it's almost like you were in a cult because i i had uh uh brett weinstein's brother eric on recently and eric was talking about the the cult of progressive ideology that it literally is a cult Like the one of the things the core things that people keep saying is that biology and gender are not related

You know like there's there's some weird things that people say in order to be supportive of trans people There's a lot of weird, but these these things that they're saying supportive of trans people. There's a lot of weird, but these, these things that they're saying, they're not supported by science and they're very culty and everyone repeats them and they repeat them for the same reason why people in certain religions repeat religious phrases. Yeah. And this goes back to that progressive thing I was talking about where, you know, to me, it, the reason that I wouldn't fully read a lot of those articles is because i was like but i want to support those people right and because i i don't think trans people should be discriminated against i don't give a shit where they want to go to the bathroom unless it's like on somebody

right like i don't care i i i think that everybody should should live and feel free as long as you're not being you know predatory or like when the Republicans were like, well, it's men are going to dress up as women. It's like, that's, that's men. Like this isn't bosom buddies, right? Like that's like, that was that like trans people are different than men who dress up as women and like sneak into bathrooms. There are most certainly going to be men who dress up like women and sneak into bathrooms because they can, because it's a loophole.

I mean, they can just walk into bathrooms now though. Just like there's going to be people that drive into cars, crowds it's a loophole. I mean, they could just walk in the bathroom now, though. Just like there's going to be people that drive into crowds of people with their car. Right. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to drive a car. Right. I mean, you're going to have aberrations. Totally. But it's not like there's a million people right now sneaking into the women's room to try to fuck kids.

Right, right, right. I mean, this is just, you can't use those individual incidences as aberrations of freakiness no and it's an awfulness totally and so to go back to your cult thing um i do feel like you would have never gotten out i mean i i god i wish this wasn't the the fucking way it happened i i wish what happened why because look at you didn't do anything wrong i know not really really bad. No big deal. But that shit still exists. And like, God, fuck, did it affect.

Like the fact that anyone would think that I'm like, that fucks with you. Well, why don't you write a counter article to it? So I think eventually I will. One of the reasons I didn't say anything. Get it published by like the Meninist or something like that. Yeah, exactly. What's that? Or the Red Pill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was going to say. Guys, I'm about to become a fucking 4chan hero like the Meninist or something like that. Yeah, exactly. What's that? Or the Red Pill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was going to say. Guys, I'm about to become a fucking 4chan hero. 4chan's happy with us because we were making fun of the Radiolab thing. I got some tweets from people. Radiolab pulled down this thing where they, Shia LaBeouf, put up some stupid flag and said, he will not divide us and 4chan went and found the flag. It was in the middle of Tennessee

and took it down and walked up to the camera and went fuck Shia LaBeouf. It was on his webcam live and it was a great Radiolab podcast but Radiolab took it down because some people complain that 4chan is awful. Missing the whole point of what they did was

not awful. These are individuals 4chan is awful. Missing the whole point of what they did was not awful. These are individuals. 4chan is comprised of hundreds of thousands of unique individuals. From kids fucking around to like yeah, yeah, yeah. And this incident was amazing. Yeah. And Shia LaBeouf's a fucking dork. So the whole thing was great. We could have come together with 4chan.

We missed our opportunity. Radiolab and 4chan like as one for a day. Radiolab just, you know, they're again, they're on that progressive ideology team. It's scary when you can't hear other voices. Yes. And there, I think there's an app they were talking about in Sam Harris's show where it tells you if you're reading too many, like either left-wing articles or right-wing articles. Like it's like, hey, we're steering a little too left. You want to balance this shit out?

And there's like an app that can do that for you. Oh, so the app aggregates your news through this app? I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that just tells me you're reading too much shit on your phone. On your phone in general. Yeah. That's why I've started reading books, and it's much better.

But fucking, oh, I forgot what I was going to say off of, oh, the cult thing. I mean, I don't know because I still, yeah. So I don't want to walk around a few other way. One of the reasons I didn't respond, one, Google and suicide. And then I should say this for my poor girlfriend. Once she came back and like had my back, like I said this on, Doug actually brought her up on stage for the podcast, but she, I thought she was going to break up with me. And she was like, well, I kind of wish you were more predatory was gonna break up with me and she was like well

i kind of wish you were more predatory towards me and that's when i was like i'm gonna i'm gonna marry you you're great you're a keeper and she totally had my back and that's such a creepy thing to say there's so many girls right now warming up their fingers getting ready to type a horrible article no no he was excited that his girlfriend wants him to be predatory no she was kidding she's just funny she's just a funny person. You can be funny. You can be funny. You can be funny. But fucking when she had my back

and I kind of walked it back and was just like, what am I going to do? There was another part of me that didn't want to write an article. I had people say to me, I had one person who spoke at the fucking Women's March who called me to be like, this makes my job harder. Because when you start to call fighting with your girlfriend abuse, when you start to call

a bad breakup, whatever, when you start to call consensual hookups on the road predatory, it's like, this is what sexists point to when they go, ah, all these girls who talk about being preyed on, it's bullshit. You know what I mean? They point to like these in innocuous, normal situations. And so that's really, really scary.

But I also had people be like, if I defended myself and some people told me this, if I defended myself, I would suddenly look like I'm saying, don't believe women. Or I'm saying that because I'm defending just one person, me. And I'm like, I didn't want to be and I don't want to be.

I just want to be a fucking comic. I don't want to be a voice for like bitches are crazy. And I also don't want to be a voice for, you know, every guy is a fucking evil rapist. Right. I just want to tell jokes. But that's what I'm saying. Move on. This experience in a lot of ways sort of can guide you through it.

That's what's been happening. Yeah. I mean, just, and this, having this example of how it could all go completely sideways. So sideways. And sideways, you know, admittedly, even before it went bad, it was going sideways. Yeah. Because you were attacking people without reading the full story. Well, and I was depressed then, too.

And you were looking to get this sort of response by attacking people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Looking to get people to say, yo, Jamie's on our side. Jamie's positive. Totally. And then being addicted to this response thing and checking your phone all the time and making sure, you know, that people are on your side where you're battling with someone and calling them a sexist, racist piece of shit. See how many followers this person has who just retweeted you. Like, that's all i did and and now

just being able to like like wake up early take care of myself read books hang out with my dope girlfriend go do jujitsu all day and then write jokes and live your life as a human and just be nice to people dude i'm telling you i am nicer to people not being this like fucking progress because I was just judging everybody how can you be nice everyone you're just like look at that guy he's fucking eating meat look at that guy he's you know he's got this fucking bumper sticker or whatever you're just constantly looking to be outraged yeah the attack machine of this I mean not just the progressive ideology but the the right-wing ideology as well it's an attack machine and you can't enjoy things.

Anytime you tweet, I went to this movie and they're like, well, this actor's problematic or this movie is fucking racist because of, and it's just like, I don't know, man.

I just had a good night. I just wanted to go see a fucking movie. I think that people are getting tired of it though. And this is what I'm hoping. I'm hoping that this sort of balances out and that this is a new form of communication that we're engaging in and people are doing it poorly well and i'll say this i was very surprised because i was like when i was taught when i when i told some comic friends that i wanted to go back to stand-up or like improv-y people and i was like i was like no

one wants to hear about my shit no one wants to hear a rant about being a moderate and so many people like hush hush were like yeah they do because they're sick of the extremes on both sides they're sick of all this like just everyone's just like all these trump jokes are just like so fucking just it's white noise all it's white noise also these progressives are trying to out progressive each other so people that consider themselves progressives are also getting attacked like the brett weinstein thing where i where he's getting called a racist. If you know him, he's one of the most deeply progressive guys probably I've ever had a chance to talk to.

Yeah, well, that was the Rose McGowan thing. That was that guy I heard on Sam Harris's, where if something happens to a white person, then someone will be like, well, what if that happened to a black person? It's like, right, that would be bad, too. And it's like, well, what if it happened to someone else? It would be like, what about a black trans person? You're also silencing.

The silencing thing is so fucked up. And this is what people are trying to do. They're trying to silence people. They're trying to get people fired. But the answer to bad speech is not silencing people. It's better speech, right? And isn't that one of the things that Nick, what's his name?

What is his last name? That was on Sam Harris's podcast. I'll pull it up. Well, and I think that's great. That was one of the really important things that he said that I completely agree with. I will say that I do think both sides say that. Like even when I was on not the comedy side of the Tosh thing, right? of the Tosh thing, right?

It's like shouting down at the female journalist or trying to get them fired is still just as bad as complaining about Tosh's joke. You know what I mean? Like it is both sides trying to shut the other person down instead of like a dialogue. Nicholas Christakis, that's his name. Oh, is that the guy I was talking about? Yeah.

Yeah, that's his name. Sam Harris with a gross pop-up. Kill those on your website, dude. Those are gross. Sign up for your newsletter. I'm not going to sign up now, Sam. You fucked yourself with that little pop-up. God, I hate pop-up windows.

This is the new Twitter war. Just Joe versus Sam about pop-ups. I love Sam. He knows I love him. But I hate pop-ups. So he was the co-director of the Yale Institute for Network Science. And he wound up having to step down if this is he is the co-director of the yale institute for network science so he was a um he was a professor of social and natural science was this the guy whose wife also got into trouble that's the guy okay so this episode literally

changed a lot of my views on everything yeah well. Well, it's a very important episode. What was the name of the episode, Jamie? Facing the Crowd. Facing the Crowd. It was. And it was about women. This woman shouted him down. And, you know, this is our home.

You're supposed to be fucking protecting us. About Halloween costumes. And the wife had made a letter that she had sent out. And the letter essentially said, people should be allowed to have, like, we'll play some of this here. I'm looking at the smirk in your face and I'm disgusted. Okay. I am sick. And I'm sick watching them argue with you.

We've been standing outside literally for at least five to six hours between you and Holloway. Standing outside literally for at least five to six hours between you and Holloway, between last night to now, we've been arguing with people who are not willing to be listened to for a long time. And all I see from you is arrogance and ego. I am sick looking at you. I am disgusted watching Alex argue with you. You were not listening. You were disgusting. I don't think you understand that.

Before I was not angry, per se, I was disappointed maybe. I thought maybe there was room for an apology. You've clearly told us that you do not plan to offer an apology for your words. You left the meeting last night to go home and then tweet do not interrupt me, to tweet from your Twitter and then the Silliman's Twitter. You showed no remorse. You tried to let your wife leave

that conversation without having answered for herself. That is disgusting. That is sick. And now, I wasn't angry before. I was not angry before, but now I am actually angry, sir. I really, do not interrupt me. I was not angry. And now I want your job to be taken from you. I don't want you to have this job.

I am disgusted knowing that you work at Yale University where I will get my degree. Where I will look back and think I have to argue with you. No, I missed my turn now. It's my turn now. Sir, sir, don't do it. Don't do it, sir. Do not do it. This is not the day. You do not want to play this game with me. Do you understand what I'm saying? You don't want to play this game with me.

Okay? Understand that. Look me in my face, first of all, and understand that you are such a disappointment to this university, to your students, to yourself, to the things that you claim to agree with. You want free dialogue? You want free speech?

This is how it works someone speaks you listen you do not cut them off you do not do these these condescending gestures you do not smirk you look them in the face and you wait you wait until it is your turn uh i think the snapping is amazing it's just so fucking characteristic the most upsetting part of that i think what upset me the most is she has my poetry cadence it was just so fucking characteristic the most upsetting part of that characteristic i think what upset me the most is she has my poetry cadence it was like she was doing the same moves and the same delivery well she was just trying to be intelligent and say something and shut him up and silence him but that's the most important thing is that she didn't want a

dialogue she wanted debate he also from what i remember on the podcast he didn't need to be out there he stayed out there for hours to talk to those people that's the thing so when she was saying like you're wasting my time or whatever like he came out to try to kind of like have his wife's back and like calling him he came out to have a dialogue like hear them out but he didn't fucking need to be there like what she was saying

I'm gonna have your job this is where I'm gonna get my degree and guess what fucker I mean I'll tell you this as somebody who lost their job and as someone who has gone after people on twitter those people that we tried to get fired or from a writing job or whatever you don't think about them the next day like the people who tried to get that guy fired on twitter or whatever like they don't think about him anymore like if he got fired those are kids i mean you're looking at an 18 year

old or a 19 year old but the twitter and intoxicated intoxicated by that moment as well you know yeah but the twitter mob behind them it's like a lot of me's it's a lot of adults too you know and like that dude got fired and his wife got fired like i mean that's that's like somebody's life who's done a lot of really good progressive things even if like i mean that's that's like somebody's life who's done a lot of really good progressive things even if he did fuck up legitimately it's like and it's also the consequence of actually being able to be fired that's a problem like say if you were running a the jamie kilstein show you got your own podcast someone can't fire you you know and that's that's really important to be able to fully and completely express yourself. I mean, if you had done something horrible, the marketplace of free ideas should step in and say,

we're not going to watch his show anymore. We're not going to listen to him anymore. That would be normal and real. The problem with being a professor of a university is a twofold problem, right? There's tenure, and tenure makes professors arrogant. It makes professors realize that they can't leave, then they suck at it and they're terrible. I mean, it's really common. It's almost like winning the lottery.

Right. Like they become lazy and weak or they become the idea and the ideal situation is they become completely dedicated to being a professor. Badass. And they don't have to worry anymore about their job. And so now they completely dedicate themselves to being an educator. That's what we would hope. They don't have to worry about being fired. Yeah.

And I really hope that people listening to this, because I wouldn't have listened to that podcast. If I brought up that podcast in my old circle, I would have gotten in trouble. I want to listen to a lot of your shows and I'm sure there are people who completely disagree with me ideologically who wouldn't, you know, read whatever the intercept or democracy now or something on the other side. And it's like my life has gotten so much better and wider and vaster. And I think it's made me a more empathetic person because, again, on the left, you just assume you're empathetic because you're on the left. Yeah. Even though you're trying to get people fired, even though you're going after their jobs. And you're being kind of a cunt.

You're attacking them. And you're insulting them. Yeah. And you're labeling them in the broadest strokes of racism and sexism. And you're calling them terrible. And that's the problem. Yeah. Where it's like.

You're framing them. And then that makes your larger ideals, are can be correct they don't matter as more yeah because you're you're not acting like a human being and then it's also like do you actually even care about those groups you're defending or do you just want to be on sort of the right side and get your like bonus points which is like that's a big part of it right i would like to think i was both you know like when they, I wasn't suddenly just like, fuck gay people. Like, you know. But you did eat a steak right away. Man.

But it was a heterosexual cis cow. Not really. Most cows are actually neutered. Don't say it. Don't. No. Yeah. That's what a steer is.

Is that? Yeah. They cut their balls off. Dude, I got it. But even that, like I was emailing with, I was emailing with Rob Wolf, the big paleo guy. And it's like, you know how much, there's a lot of shit that vegans and paleo people could have in common when it comes down to like hating factory farms or like trying to get like the healthiest, like that, like animal welfare. And like, I mean, eating so many of the, these paleo guys are like the majority of what you're eating should be fucking vegetables. Sure.

You know what I mean? And, and, and, and they're just talking about health and they are talking about animal welfare. And that's so fascinating where it's like, oh, those conversations will never fucking happen. Well, what we've done, it's a real problem, is jam too many people into a small area where there's no one growing any food. And so to solve that problem, they've figured out how to consolidate massive amounts of growing into these areas, both agriculture in terms of like vegetables and grains and animals. I mean, it's all fucking gross. Oh, yeah.

What they do, the way they grow vegetables is totally unnatural. You're not supposed to have a gigantic swath of land. No. It's only dedicated to wheat. Well, and then all the steroids that they give the cow. Dude, I saw a picture of a cow once that it couldn't stand up Cuz like it's utter was so fucking big it was like weighing it down like that shit is that's actually a misconception There's very rare that they put steroids in cows

So what is it what they do do is they put a lot of antibiotics in the cows because the cows are eating things that they're Not supposed to be eating like, and they get really sick. And they're doing that to fatten them up to make them bigger, right? Exactly. And also that grain you could feasibly feed to people. Yeah, you can, sure. Also, the thing, which people don't want to eat grass, but the yield is much higher. If they can get a cow, they come to market quicker, they grow faster, but they're unhealthy.

When you get a marbled steak, what's that Wagyu stuff that people cherish and love, that Wagyu steak? I'm the wrong person to ask, buddy. Well, it's a really obese cow, is what it is. But if you eat grain and you're a cow, that's what happens to your body. You just get fat and gross. Chicken is another one. People always think that chickens are getting pumped up with steroids.

Steroids are expensive. What they do with chickens is it's really a breeding thing. It's just like the way you make a bulldog or how do you breed the biggest mastiff. They take the biggest animals, they breed them with the biggest animals, and they've gotten to this position where these chickens are so Fucked up because they've bred them to be so large. They can't even stand up Oh, yeah, when they're like claws like mold around the cage and stuff and they're jammed into these little areas That's all but then on top of that the real issue is that these animals are on top of each other

They're living in each other's shit. They're sick all the time Yeah, that was that super chicken. That chicken is actually healthy by the way you see it walk around. That's just an enormous, large breed of chicken. That chicken looks like a Sesame Street character. It's a perspective issue, too. I'm sure if you were standing next to it, it wouldn't look as big. But, I mean, you know, there's turkeys.

Turkeys are pretty big. But the real issue is antibiotics. Antibiotics is a huge issue because those antibiotics are, first of all, you get these animals like pigs. The worst is pigs, man, because pigs are fucking smart. At least chickens are reptiles. They're birds. Their brains are fucking tiny. Dude, baby pigs are like puppies.

They're so cute. It's horrific. It's horrific. There was a Glenn Greenwald article recently that he published about these people that got arrested because they adopted these pigs. They actually stole these pigs from a factory farm and nursed them back to health. But in doing so, and them getting arrested, it exposed the horrific conditions. Oh, yeah. FBI's hunt for two missing piglets reveals the federal cover-up of barbaric factory farms. And that is a real cover-up.

Yeah. Because it's money. And that's why they have what they call ag-gag laws. And I'm sure you're aware of these. These ag-gag laws are fucking insane. Where they make it illegal for people to take footage and film what's going on in these factory farms. Because they think it will negatively impact the business of the farm. Yeah, it's like, yes.

Yes, of course. It will. Because you're fucking break here. You're you're you're You're denying people information. Yeah, and that's deny people information like that I feel like that was one of those issues that I think I think will Potter I think I knew a couple of those guys because mercy for animals has done a bunch of those like undercover operations and stuff and That's one of those things that again that that should bring together both sides, right? It's like, we're all eating these animals, right? Or you're vegan and you're trying to stop this, but you don't, no one for the most part is like a fucking monster. No one is like asking for like a tortured animal like this. Who's like rolling around in their own feces where it's like, everybody has the right to know this. This is something that I think

the vegan community could be very mainstream about and should get a lot of support. And Greenwald's always been like a softie for animals too. Like he does all of his like Snowden stuff, but dude has like 15 rescue dogs in Brazil and like he loves animals. And I'm glad this is getting coverage from these guys.

I'm glad it's getting coverage too. And kudos to him for putting that out. You know, he's highlighting something that's a real issue, and that issue is there's a concerted effort to deny people information because that information would change the way they feel about the food they eat. And, you know, the argument is that they have to have these conditions because this is the only way to give people food very cheaply because you have to feed you know 20 million people in los angeles but i don't i don't buy that article i

don't buy that argument no i think this is just how it's convenient to run right now yes and you also look at like what's the shit we actually do subsidized for poor people it's garbage it's like coke and like processed food and it's like subsidized corn as well. But even that is not the best thing for you. No, especially like when it turns into like high fructose corn syrup and shit like that where it's like people need to be educated. Doctors are barely educated about nutrition and health. And if we actually had healthy food, whether it be like meat or vegetables or whatever, in these like food deserts. And so that's why I always got mad when people were like, oh, look at that fucking fat person on food stamps.

It's like, well, it's not because they're like eating a ton of grass fed beef. It's because like their fucking food stamps can buy them chips and cereal and mac and cheese boxes and shit like that. But that's another thing where it's like, well, that's not a conversation we have because we go, you're either on the vegan side

or this side or you're either pro-government or you're anti-government. It's like there are answers. I feel like if people put their heads together and we're just trying to get like, yeah, the guy who used the wrong pejorative fired from the New Yorker or whatever. Right. But I think it's, again, just like everything else, there's more information available now than ever before. And I think more people are aware of this information. It's just so many people are distracted by nonsense all day. Like yesterday, Tony and I, Tony Hinchcliffe and I, we did a gig in San Francisco.

And when we were coming back, we were at the airport. And we were next to this gal at the airport. And she's talking on the phone about the most inane bullshit. She was talking about Amazing Race and Amazing Race. The teams on Amazing Race are just not, they're just, I'm so annoyed with them, so I'm not even watching it anymore. But, oh, my God, I'm so hungry.

And this place has this, you know, amazing churro, and this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm supposed to be getting this thing at work, but, you know, so far my pay increase hasn't come through. And when it comes through, I'm going to save up my money and I'm going to get this thing at work but i'm not you know so far my pay increase hasn't come through and when it comes through i'm gonna save up my money and i'm gonna get this thing i'm so mad right now but this is what you know this is the average person's life it's just they get distracted by nonsense they talk about bullshit they're watching stupidity well it's hard because it's getting it's getting fed to you and a lot of people aren't doing what they actually

want to do and they don't believe they can actually do it. And they go to college because they're told they're supposed to go to college, and then they're riddled in student debt, so they get a job they hate that they'll stick into. My point was, what I was going to get to, was that you, in your obsession with Twitter, and you're being addicted to it and constantly checking in on it and going back to it. That was your distraction. This woman is finding distractions in stupid television shows and bad food to eat and nonsensical raises at work. And because of that, this occupies so much of your time between your job and your family and all this that you don't have time to think about factory farming. Totally and even now i can judge that girl when i was doing the same thing on twitter but i could feel like well mine's for the cause right mine's not for yeah you know mine's not for the the amazing race mine's like for equal whatever and it's like well it's not it's not i'm not making

a difference i'm just doing it for for a little a fave. I didn't even have enough fucking Twitter followers to be addicted to Twitter. Well, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? Having followers is not what makes you addicted. I mean, and anybody can engage with a large group of followers just by saying something mean to someone like Glenn Greenwald or like someone who has a lot of followers. It's not hard to do. I mean, Glenn gets shit from all sides.

Yeah. all sides. Yeah. All sides. You know, once the Edward Snowden thing came out, he became a lightning rod for it. Right. I mean, there's a lot of people like that. There's a lot of people that are doing that. It's a, again, it's, it's a unique time for the distribution of information. It's a unique time because we have to sort out ourselves how we manage this information

and where it's, how it's getting in. Man, I'll just say like once I just sort of started focusing on, in a weird way, being selfish. Like where it's like how can I just be a better person? You end up, like I mean how can I better myself? You end up being a better person. Where I'm like I don't know what's going on. I don't know who's getting arrested right now for the Russia thing. But I'm like, I know that.

Like, I'm picking my girlfriend up from work after I, like, do a bunch of jiu-jitsu at, like, a dope gym, you know? And I'm like, I'm kind of fine with that, you know? I think it's just a healthier way to fucking live. live well you know you're you're talking about yourself and you're talking about your own sort of management of your life where it had gone completely off the rails and now you've got it back on track and you're feeling yourself in a good place and healthy yeah now it's like maybe there is a middle ground right maybe there is a way that like if i start doing shows again i can like be on twitter and not be a douchebag. You definitely can. And I think that having this negative experience and getting through it, that's how you learn and grow.

I mean, these big moments are big opportunities for growth, whereas the same grind day in, day out, you become like the gal at the airport. It's like, well, these teams in the Amazing Rings are really annoying to me, but these churros are the best churros, and their churros are dry, and blah. You know, there's nothing happening. Having a big moment where all

these people attacked you, and things went totally wrong, it gave you this opportunity for self-reflection in a way that you really probably were very unlikely to achieve without this moment. No, I was either going to be off the Brooklyn Bridge or a bigger douchebag. And I don't know which one was worse.

You were at the All Things Comedy Festival. You're hanging out with Burt and Morgan and Doug. Literally the funniest people on the planet. Fucking Ari, like the funniest people on the planet. Didn't Doug pee on Ari? He peed on him, right? That might have been the day after I left. That's so mature.

I definitely saw Ari's dick. That's my friend's. Yeah. Oh, I've seen Ari's dick a hundred times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw Ari's dick. I didn't see Doug's dick. See, now, if I was in the wrong circles,

Ari could have sexually assaulted me with his dick by showing me his dick. Like, it would be considered some sort of a... My girlfriend pointed that out. When he came out on stage naked, it's like, would there be women in there that'd be like, that is sexual assault because I saw his dick. If it was a citizens radio sort of a show, definitely people would be like, their fingers would hurt from typing so much to Jezebel.

It would fill the comments up. Poor Ari wouldn't feel good about himself. Jezebel shows my fascination with Megyn Kelly. I read Jezebel's daily breakdown of uh megan kelly's inane retarded show yeah it's i haven't watched it yet look you know man we all we could all be nicer we could all find uh some sort of a middle ground yeah we could all you know we could all learn from all these experiences you know i can learn from your experience for sure yeah you gotta stop pre praying on women.

Well, I'm not a predator like you. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right. Hashtag you're the problem. Oh no, everyone's doing it now. Yeah, man. I got to say like, uh, listening to like you and Bert and Doug and like, I started listening to Fitzsimmons podcast, all these podcasts about comedy and thinking about how, you know, just because I feel like I failed. I was like, I guess I shit on all comics and forgetting about that.

Like even the comics, you say the most horrific shit on stage for the most part. There's a lot of really cool, broken, sweet guys who like through all of the bullshit had my back. Like I remember I heard Bert. I told Bert this, I think actually on the podcast had my back. Like I remember I heard Bert, I told Bert this, I think actually on the podcast, maybe backstage, but I told Bert that like I was going back and listening to a bunch of his podcasts and I listened to the one he did with Medscare.

Um, cause I wanted that other fucking side to it. Right. Like I wanted the other side. The Medscare situation was fascinating, but in, you know, to,

to, I don't know if Kurt wants us to be known, but he was devastated by that. I mean, like really bad. I've been talking to Kurt a lot. He was super unhealthy. I mean, he felt he felt it. That e-rage, man, when they come after you.

Well, and when I heard him on the podcast and not he gets a little mouthy on Facebook. But when I actually heard him on the podcast articulate what he was talking about, where he was like, no, I think this. So for people who don't know like some fucking dude at ucb was accused of rape i think yeah and and kurt essentially said you know he made it sort of in parody saying that no woman could ever lie and a woman is like my bible it's always true and yeah but he was also saying that UCB said they did an investigation and found this guy guilty. And he was like, you can't do that. I don't know how an improv theater can yes and their way to the clues.

I don't know how that happened. They're not detectives. No, but now this dude can fucking, if he is guilty, he can sue the UCB. And that's what Kurt was saying, too. But he just worded it poorly. And it turns out that they believe the guy is a piece of shit. Yes. And Kurt would be the first to say that.

So anyway, so I listened to this interview. And that has to do with, again, just judging people on the internet without facts, right? So I listened to this interview with Kurt and Bert, and it's really good. And I think that was the first time I heard Bert's show. And at the end I was like, ah, all right. They started talking about me and they weren't really wrong about a lot of the stuff they said. And I had this moment where Bert, who I only met once, we did some weird TV show together in like Amsterdam. And I only met him once.

And he, I thought it was going to be like just being like, this fucking faggot feminist. Because that was the idea I had of all comics and how they thought about me, right? And he was just like, yeah, man. I was just bummed out. Because I remember Jamie was nice. And then it just made me sad that he didn't stick up for comics. And it was just really sweet and sincere and kind of like even like vulnerable. And I remember like turning to my girlfriend and being like, I want to apologize to Bert more than I do these women.

He sounded so like sincere and sad. And I just forgot about that, like that sort of comic camaraderie, you know? It's easy to characterize us and just to lump us into this boorish group of asshole men that are misogynists. And, you know, you, did you ever see that thing where Jim Norton went on W. Kamau's show? Yeah. And like, that was Lindy West. It was Lindy.

Yeah. Her characterization of like that kind of comedy was so caricaturish. It was so ridiculous. Yeah. And, and there, and there are, there are caricatures of like, like I comedy was so caricature-ish. It was so ridiculous. Yeah. And there are caricatures of like, like I know feminists who aren't fucking insane and who like, you know. But it's like she was wanting it to be a certain way. I think a lot of people do

because it's easier to stereotype and demonize. Yeah. Because like, you know, making that decision where I'm like, all right, fucking Rogan hates me. I don't need to listen to that podcast. Like I'll just get the information that's easier to digest that that's cake. Right. It's like, cool. I'm just going to listen to the shows that agree with me and feed me information that says, you're right. You're smart. You're good. As opposed to the stuff

that's like, ah, I got to look that up. I have to like, think about this. I have to maybe change a behavior of mine. Right. And people do that on both sides. And that's why it is so important. It's like no one is the fucking stereotype of anything that that people think. Well, I think we're in a boat that's in rocky water. Right. And I think it's going to rock left and it's going to rock right. And hopefully we're going to write the ship and we're going to figure out what the fuck we're doing.

And I mean, collectively, the human race is probably never communicated clearer ever than we do now and it's because of our access to information there's just definitely going to be these groups of people that so you know they they haul off and they get confirmation bias and they they shore their walls up with this group of like-minded folks in an echo chamber there's always going to be that yeah but i think that is more obvious for what it is today than ever before. Totally. And I think that's a good thing. You know, and I think that your ability to express yourself like this on this podcast, we've been talking now for two and a half hours. Yeah. This is a very unique way to communicate. I think this is a way to communicate where you really get to know somebody versus someone Characterizing you this is why I have a problem with blogs When someone writes a blog entry on you and you don't get a chance to respond

They don't get a chance to see who you really are no and then when someone like me who's in a position to amplify it Just reads that you just read it as fact just like you watch the news as fact cuz you go What's fucking called the news right? That's why it's interesting to see it come back and bite you in the ass yeah right and then see your response and see you realize like oh and then go through this essentially an exile period yeah you know yeah yeah i mean you you went a year without performing i mean that's dude without talking to people like without talking to to comics with you know but it was it was also like working on me because like i it's not like the article was was garbage but it's not like i wasn't like a shitty selfish depressed in a bad spot person right like there were a ton of things

i needed to fucking look at myself and fix. And, and was I being selfish? And was I making this all about me? And was I, but it's not necessarily an accurate characterization of who you are as a person. no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, but it was good for me to fix those other things. I was like, well,

I didn't do that, but I was kind of a douchebag so I can fix this. You know, um, that's why I, you know, I thought comics believe that believe that article and when i was talking to doug and i was like they didn't read it no i

know i they just thought it was funny because i i was talking to doug and i was like yeah man i i i know i i don't really want to apologize because i reread it and i i don't think it's and he's like no no no no none of us think you're a fucking predator you're apologizing for being a douchebag and i was like oh Oh, I get it. It was the, the turning on comedy, the self-righteousness. I saw the article and I looked at,

I'm like, damn, Jezebel is going after Jamie Kennedy. What the fuck? And I laughed, but I didn't think it was real. And I felt like, well,

he's probably trying to get laid. And he said something and someone took it and turned it into some horrific offense against all women. And it turns out that he's actually a predator. And, you know, fuck him. He's cast out from the kingdom. I mean, that's just what people do, man. And one of the reasons why they do it is because they're absolutely terrified that they themselves are going to get cast out from the kingdom.

Dude, I have. Totally. Totally. Because everyone has their shit. totally totally because everyone has their shit and it is i mean it like this although the weinstein stuff and the like there are a lot of dudes who probably would be supporting this more but are just like oh but i i flirted with that one girl at the office like am i like weinstein and it's like you can't compare those things. You can't compare those things. Because you have to go after Weinstein with as much, you know, whatever vigor as you do, like, not go after the people who are fucking flirting. Well, the Weinstein thing, what's unique about the Weinstein thing is it is one of the worst cases you could imagine.

Sort of like the Cosby thing is to drugging and raping yeah it's like when you you read about the number of people that are accusing Cosby and you're like oh my god did he rape people for like this is like your full-time job next to the Cosby show was a rapist somebody characterized him as the worst serial raper in human history. Dude, I heard you say that. That's so fucking... And I'm like, wow. Yeah. That might be real. That might be real.

Yeah. I mean, he really might be... He might have drugged and raped hundreds of women. We don't even know the numbers. By the way, that's another fucking example, now that I think about it, of what you were just saying, where the last however many years,

he went from comic to lecturing, like, black people about how to wear their pants and how to articulate. And he was talking about manners and how to present yourself. And it's like, oh, you're covering up drugging and raping people where it's like you're like, you know what I mean? That is what bit him in the ass because Hannibal Buhr is talking about him on stage. He was being a comic. That's what got him. I still can't believe it was Hannibal. It was Hannibal. Hannibal being a comic saying, you know got him. I still can't believe it was Hannibal. It was Hannibal.

Being a comic saying, you know, hey, you know, you're telling me not to swear. Hey, at least I'm not out there raping women. And people were like, what?

What? What? Like the average person didn't know. No. I mean, I heard about it way back in the day when I was on news radio.

Somebody, who the fuck just told me the other day? Oh, my friend Curtis. My friend Curtis, his mom worked with Bill Cosby in the 1960s. In the 1960s. And she was an extra on something that Bill Cosby was doing.

And someone pulled her aside and said, be careful around him. He's a fucking creep. Whoa. And that he will do something. And I don't know if they specifically said that they would drug him or that he would drug her. Oh, my God. But they said, be careful. So people that worked with him knew he was doing creepy shit like drugging women in the 1960s.

Jesus. So we might be talking literally about 50 years of rape. Of straight up drug and rape. 50 years of drugging and raping. And he did jokes about it that's the other thing curtis was talking about he had bits about about putting spanish fly into women's drinks and about drugging women whoa actual bits about it jesus but he got away with it forever yeah until this distribution of information that we're experiencing now yeah

and this is what would cause harvey weinstein's and that's why it's good and that's why you know i would never be like social media is the problem because you know the the me too campaign and harvey weinstein and cosby like it is good that these people are being exposed it's not good when you also then go on witch hunts right for people who like uh aren't like to get laid fucking rapists or whatever well that's the difference and this is the thing that a lot of men like they see the harvey weinstein thing and they start thinking about themselves and go oh my god what if every girl that i ever tried to fuck came out and said you know john tried to you know he tried to feel me up or john tried to get me to go back to his house one night you know after we had a couple of drinks together and then you know and yeah because

what does that look like is it a guy actually pressing up against you and like violating your physical space? Or was it a guy being like, Hey, do you want to come up for coffee? And they're like, no. And they go, Oh fuck my bed. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then how you characterize that.

I mean, if you write a blog about it and you take all these women that, you know, Bill tried to fuck and you, I don't know, I'm gonna say Bill cause of Cosby. You could say John. John tried to have sex Harvey well the crazy thing about Harvey is how many of them were famous like these were like famous women with a voice yeah and he still did it to him yeah I mean it's just like he just had some crazy addiction to doing that to women yeah it wasn't just simply like he was trying to get laid no it's like you are a bad person cuz you could get laid because you're fucking Harvey Weinstein you are a very rich powerful man he

could have hired prostitutes I mean if he wanted to if he just wanted sex yeah pretty obviously he wanted to fuck the leading lady yeah you know he wanted to stick his dick in the mouth of the woman who was in the movie and know why he's watching the movie I came in her mouth I did that yeah oh boy yeah you don't want to get that rich you don't want to go that also what's this new one cues of raping employee in the 70s oh god as more women come forward it's a goddamn rape fest out there. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's horrible.

Right. And it also reinforces a lot of negative ideas that women have about men too. That's another problem is that they were go, look, we were right. There is a rape culture. Look, we're right.

You know, men do all do this. Well, and I think if people could actually go after these rapists, then again, same thing with all of the middle ground issues we were kind of finding, right? Where it's like, well, let's go after the actual bad guys and then not make, you know, if there's a day where there's not a rapist, instead of like looking, I mean, statistically, I'm probably wrong, but like looking for like, who can we be mad at for being sexist? Like, just go enjoy the day right like um there doesn't always have to be a new bad guy like you can just like go after the legit fucking predators and and and and and rapists and yeah there's plenty of actual real targets bad cop yeah yeah exactly we talked you don't need to invent them

and also like is that the thing to do? Or is the thing to do to try to educate humans as to how to behave with each other? And that this, this, one of the reasons why this was, he got away with it is because he had this extreme amount of power to control the future of these women. It was just that. And so that's how he got away with getting them to do these things and keep their mouth shut because he held this incredible power over them because he could control their future. Yeah.

He had the money and the influence to get them and give them the career that they desire. Yeah. It was that legit casting couch cliche. It's just like, oh, it was real and it was him and it was gross. Whitney Cummings knows people that know like the whole inside story. And what she said is like, what you're hearing is all the women that said no. She's like, do you know how many famous women said yes? Like begrudgingly said yes?

No, no. They did it because it was a deal. They made a deal. This is how I get the leading part. This is how I get, you know, influence over editing. This is how I get more lines. And literally they negotiated this. Yeah.

And she said he literally would negotiate certain aspects of their careers with sex. And these women did it. And you know, some of them probably begrudgingly and some of them willingly. Yeah. Some of them happily. Right. Who knows?

Yeah. But it's just, what you're seeing is just, this is how this guy operated. Right. You saw the, the Harvey Levin, that's his name, who released all the various aspects of the contract that he had where they had worked in sexual harassment claims. No, he would get fined a certain amount, like $100,000 for one, $250,000 for the second one, $500,000 for the third. Naughty boy, fine. Yes, yes, yes. Like $500,000 for the third. Naughty boy. Fine.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Like literally, but negotiated into the contract. Look at this. Here it is. According to the contract, if Weinstein treated someone improperly in violation of the company's code of conduct, which obviously means rape, he must reimburse the Weinstein company for

settlements or judgments. Additionally, you will pay the company liquidated damages of $250,000 for the first such instance, $500,000 for the second, $750,000 for the third, and a million dollars for each additional instance. So the contract is like, look, you're going to get raped. We know. We know you're a piece of shit.

So we want to protect ourselves from your piece of shit ways. It is 100% known. The contract says as long as Weinstein pays, it constitutes a cure for the misconduct and no further action can be taken. Translation, Weinstein could be sued over and over. And as long as he wrote a check, he keeps his job. Oh.

Which is fucking crazy. It's just like they made a deal with the devil. They knew what they were doing. But he just had a pile of like rape checks and could just dole them out. It's just amazing that this went on for so long and that they literally

had negotiated this into a contract. Right, right. I mean, that is fucking, but it takes that to change the culture. It takes the exposure. Like that cartoonish level.

Yes, yes. It takes that to change the culture and then all the people that are terrified of being outed like him now will recognize the consequences of those actions and hopefully they're going to change their ways yeah that's what we're hoping yeah i mean yeah you don't uh but these are fucking you you don't like uh rub your hard dick against your employee right like

unless your employee likes it yeah and how do you know until you do it here lies the problem i was reading some fucking article uh not an article an advertisement from it was like the 1920s and it was an advertisement for a type of like antiseptic gum like a Listerine type gum yeah and it was how to kiss a woman is that you you know you look in her eyes do not ask for permission right you just do it's amazing like that but it just shows you the way what our culture is did from the 1920s to today I mean a hundred years of progress and if people recognize like hey no you can't just stare at a woman and then fucking kiss her and not ask permission. Like, just like be confident

and strong. Like, no, no, no, no. What if you're gross? What if she doesn't want to kiss? You gotta have more information. Sometimes, here's the problem, sometimes that works. If the woman is really attracted to you and you're really attracted to her and you look at each other and you don't have to say anything and you kiss, but you don't know when the fuck that is, how do you know? And you definitely can't put that look at each other and you don't have to say anything. Yeah. But you don't know when the fuck that is.

How do you know? And you definitely can't put that in a gum ad, you piece of shit. But they didn't know that in the 1920s because no one was there to tell them. They were dealing with the information that they got just from communicating with their friends and the people they worked with and the limited amount of media that they had Some dude was like, yeah, there was just some fucking girl and I kissed her and they were like, got it. Good move.

Put it in the ad. Check. How did you meet your wife? Well, I looked her, yeah, there was just some fucking girl and I kissed her. And they were like, got it. Put it in the ad. Check. How did you meet your wife? Well, I looked her in the eye. I didn't ask permission. I kissed her. And now we're married and we have a happy family. And that's how you do it.

Like a fucking man. Chew gum. Yeah. Chew gum. But that was how much information they had to go off back then. Yeah. Whereas today, I mean, if you ask me like, hey, how do you know when to kiss a girl? Well, will he kiss her? No. Teeth whitened. Three shades of day. That's a different one. back then. Whereas today, if you ask me, hey, how do you know when to kiss a girl?

Will he kiss her? No. Teeth whitened. Three shades of day. That's a different one. But it was a yellow ad. Upper left. That's it. That's it. Do you know how to kiss a girl? Then learn. Stand facing her. Do not tell her your intentions.

Do not ask permission to kiss her. Look dreamily into her eyes. Look dreamily into her eyes. Look dreamily into my eyes, Jamie. Look. Let me see dreamy. Dreamily. Am I a predator? No, no, you're dreamily.

You're looking dreamily. I don't know how to do that. I'm not going to. I can't act. You may hold her right hand in your right hand if you wish. Hmm. It is well to sigh a couple times about this stage of the game. What?

What? Whisper softly that her rosebud lips reminds you of Cupid's bow. Holy shit. Wow. She will probably drop her eyes and blush when you say that. Place the fingers of your left hand under her chin and tilt back her head slightly. Draw her attention. By the way, this is all like you could see it in a, like you could see the cartoon of it.

Yeah, this is all one ad? And the guy's dressed like a cop. Draw her gently towards you. Do not hurry. Gaze deeply at the love lights which slumber in her eyes. Sigh once more. Holy shit. The sighing thing.

The editing. You need to edit this thing. This is terrible writing. Incline your head towards her until your lips. But wait, all caps. Do not kiss her until you know that she uses listerated pepsin gum, the only antiseptic gum in the world. The only chewing gum that makes it safe to kiss.

Safe to kiss. Wait, so you're being a creep, but then you're putting the onus on her to use the thing? Exactly. That's some bullshit. That's sexist. If she is a listerated pepsin gum girl, kiss her. Oh, that's not like a really bad penthouse letter. Not a fucking gum ad. Is it 1911? Copyright 1911.

Commonstance Gum Company. So weird. Wow. What is it? Common? Common. C-O-M-M. But it looks like E-N. That's just a- Just a shitty font, old font, blurry font. Sense, Common Sense Gum Company.

Common Sense Gum Company. Jesus, 1911. Well, that's, you know, limited access to information. Just the fact that that would be torn to shred god if somebody tried to write that today and put it in an ad and like say esquire or something like that right yeah yeah but that's it just shows you the evolution of human culture yeah i mean and i think we're experiencing that totally and and i think there's a lot of good i think like yeah that shit shouldn't happen you shouldn't just be creepily sighing into a girl's mouth that That sighing stuff is bizarre. It works.

Here's the thing. If a man and a woman are deeply attracted to each other, and she's a moron, and you're a moron, and you say, moron, thanks, she's like, oh, Cupid's bow. And next thing you know, wait a minute, what kind of gum are you using? What kind of gum should I use? Yeah, I mean, it's, who are we to judge?

Jamie Kilstein? That should be the episode, the name of this episode. Who are we to judge Jamie Kielstein. That's that should be the episode the name of this episode No, not even judge Jamie Kielstein, but you know comma Jamie kills. I love it. We did judge. I support that Yeah, who are we to judge? Listen come back to being a comedian an actual I want you back. Yeah, I think I'm back start showing up Yeah, and subsets call in for spot. I got a figure out how to do that You'll figure it out. I'll just start showing up weird. doing some sets. Call in for spots. I got to figure out how to do that. You'll figure it out. I'll just start showing up.

Weird. You'll get back in. You'll get back in. That's what I'm going to try to do. Beautiful. That show was so fucking fun. And being around comics was so fun. I forgot how much I love comedy.

My girlfriend's much happier. You took a break, bro. Yeah. That's what I'll say. And they'll be like, why'd you take a break? And I'm like, I don't think you don't talk about that. Progressivism. Progressivism.

I got sick. I got sick. I got sick with the left. All right. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for doing this, man. No I got sick. I got sick. I got sick with the left. All right. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for doing this, man. No, thanks.

This was so fun. I'll get back on Twitter. Yes. Well, be careful with that. Yeah. I won't check my mentions. But it worked. Yeah.

Don't for a day, at least. They will come for you, especially if they know you're vulnerable. They're like wolves. Oh, that's true. Okay. Thank you, man. It was fun. Yeah, you're the best.

Glad we did this. Me too. It was great. I'm glad you did it. All right. All right. We will be back tomorrow with Colin Moriarty and

Owen Benjamin on Wednesday. See ya. Dude.