The Joe Rogan Experience - #1049 - Chris Stapleton

Episode Date: December 6, 2017

Chris Stapleton is a Grammy Award winning singer-songwriter and guitarist. His new album "From A Room: Volume 2" is available now on Spotify.

Ready? Boom! And we're live. What's up, man? How's it going? Pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to meet you. Yeah, man. I'm a fucking huge fan of yours. Oh, well, thank you very much.

I listened to your last album. I've listened to that fucking thing hundreds of times. I listen to it all the time when I'm headed to the comedy store. Puts me in a good mood. Well, that's good. That's what music's supposed to do. I'm just stunned by the fact that for the longest time, you were basically doing the songwriting thing.

You were doing a lot of that. You were making your own music, but you were known more as a songwriter. Yeah, well, you know, you walk through the doors that are open. Yeah. So you do the things that come up, and somewhere in the middle of all that, you find out what your thing is. But God damn, your voice is so good, man. Thank you.

I mean, I don't want to fanboy out on you, but it's just such a classic, like, male voice, you know, like singing those kind of songs. It's like, I'm glad someone's still doing it right. Oh, well, I don't know. You know, thank you. I'll just say thank you. I don't want to say I'm doing it right and somebody else is doing it wrong. Well, for me, I'm doing what I do, you know.

But what you do, I like. So I'm just happy there's someone out there doing what you're doing. Thank you. And what is going on with you right now? You got a new album that's about to come out. We got a new album that's, yeah, came out December 1st, and yeah, we're proud of it and hope people like it.

Is it on iTunes and all that jazz? It's on iTunes. Yeah, you can get it everywhere that music is available, as far as I know. That's what they tell me. Have the doors opened up for you now? Does everything feel like, oh? Yeah, we're sitting here talking, aren't we? Everything's good.

No, yeah. I mean, beyond good. No, yeah. I mean, beyond good. Good would be the understatement of the century for, you know, just so many things that sound like fake, you know, like fake life. Yeah. You know, things that happen, phone calls you get, people you meet, people you get to talk to. Like what? Shoot, man, just any of it. Just, you know, getting to go play. This past year we played three shows with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Oh, man.

You know? That must have been amazing. It was amazing. We played Wrigley Field with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Holy shit. Wrigley Field. God, how many people was that? I don't know. It was a bunch, but it felt just as cool as it sounds like it should. Wow. Wow.

Man, Wrigley Field with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. It doesn't get any cooler than that. Not to me it doesn't, but maybe there's something else. So how long has success been happening? Like two years now? To the degree that it's happening right now, probably since 2015, a couple years of Good Strong. We're going on three of playing shows

to more people than we knew ever came to live shows. So, yeah, it's been a strange, life-altering thing. When you hear, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Chris Stapleton What does that like I freak out well, we don't usually do in money announcements like that We just kind of walk out there and play that's the move. Yeah, we don't we don't hype them up You know too much. We just kind of walk out there and Fire up. Oh, that might be the way to do it

Well, I mean everybody has their own thing, but I don't have like a hype guy doing that you need like the kiss guy the hottest band in the world i remember that when i was a kid i went to see kiss live a bunch of times you'd get so fucking pumped up at the beginning because he would go the hottest band in the world i've never seen kiss live but jane simmons did show up to a show of ours once did he really it was the weirdest thing ever he's we were in new york somewhere and he just happened to be in town, and he played the night before wherever we were playing. And he showed up just to say hi, and here's Gene Simmons on the side of the stage before we go play our gig.

And I'm just like, you know. Really? Yeah. It's one of those moments we're talking about. You ask about people. That was one of them. It was like, hi, Gene Simmons. Gene Simmons came to see me one time a few years back at new year's eve at the improv him and his family came to see me new year's eve i was fucking legitimately nervous so

the whole time you're looking at jane simmons going yeah or not looking at him you know one way or the other you know it was so odd yeah it's like you know who I am? How the fuck is that possible? It's strange stuff, man. But I love talking to people that are like a year, two years into the situation you're in right now, where you're just kind of getting settled into it, where it still seems like fantasy land. I'm not sure that it would ever not seem like fantasy land, because I spent enough years not in fantasy land to realize that it's in fantasy land. You could be like 71 day on cocaine, 15 ex-wives. God, I hope not.

That sounds horrible. But it seems like it happens to a lot of folks, right? Well, maybe. I'm going to hope not me. Yeah, I hope not you too. I mean, you seem like you could avoid it. Seems like a horrid existence. Well, there's a balancing act, I think, with any great musician or any great artist, really,

is like doing the art and then now you're in the fame Olympics. Like you're in this weird thing where, you know, you're going to win Grammys and you're going to have platinum albums if they still have those anymore. And you're going to be on these talk shows and people are going to it's it's a different animal now well yeah yes no no for me i mean i i still whatever we have is because we concentrated on the music and let music lead and so trying to do anything other than that you know i'll have fun with some of the stuff. You know, if somebody wants me to do a bit on a show or something, I'm fine with that. That's cool.

But it still all just comes from music, you know. And it's all – the focus is always going to be the music. And anything other than that, you know, there's never, in my mind, any focus on trying to stay famous. Does that make sense? Yes, and I knew you were going to think like that. Yeah. I'm very happy you said it that way.

I don't make music for that reason or to win awards or anything like that. I make it because I like it and hope that it's good. Well, it's very clear in your music itself that that's what you're doing. Very clear. It's very clear that that's pure, that it's just, this is what you do, and you're concentrating on that. And it's not, there's nothing disingenuous about it. There's nothing pumped up or fake or...

Well, yeah, I hope not, you know. I know, right? That's the... But, I mean, it's got to be a weird world. I mean, the world of the music business is a very, very strange world. I've talked to a lot of musicians, and, you know, navigating the world of commerce and music.

There again, I always, if you just simplify it down to let the music lead and let that kind of be always the focus, for me, that makes it real easy to not make decisions you would regret or feel like weren't you. So as long as that's the focus, that's okay. All that other stuff just kind of becomes external noise that will all – it doesn't matter.

It's not a hard thing to navigate in that realm to me. To you? To me, no. But you must see it being a difficult thing for navigate in that realm to me. To you? To me, no. But you must see it being a difficult thing for some folks that you know, right? Sometimes, you know, some people, but some people, you know, care very much about, this is a dangerous. You're the first person to ever get me in dangerous waters like I'm talking about people oh we don't have to name names i'm sorry well i and i don't want to sound judgmental and and what i'm saying uh my wife calls this pulling back the curtain too much

she's like don't pull it back that curtain too much but you know if you want to pull it back i know that you like you're the guy that likes to pull back the curtain. I think it's good to look back there sometimes. Yeah, okay. See what the fuck the monsters are up to. Well, yeah, I mean, I think if you roll up into the music business or, you know, this is my experience. If you roll up into wanting to make records and wanting to be in the music business and wanting to live and play music, having absolutely no opinion of what you want to do or who you are or how you do it, records and wanting to be in the music business and wanting to live and play music, having absolutely no opinion of what you want to do or who you are or how you do it, and you

want everybody else to tell you how to do it and what to do and when and where and why, then yeah, it can be a confusing thing because there will be a lot of external opinions that aren't yours that will create someone that is not you that you will have to play for the rest of your life so was that a lot of information no that's right so uh you know but as long as you're doing things that that are you and and do come you know from you and and from who you are and what you'd like to do that's never a wrong decision. And sometimes that doesn't add up to – most times it doesn't add up to some kind of commercial success. But, you know, at least you can look at yourself in the mirror on it and not hate whatever it is you have to go out and play every night. Right.

So it can become like the artistic equivalent of like a soulless corporate job where you just kind of get sucked into something. You wind up doing it for a living. Maybe it makes you money, but you never really get to be yourself because you're sort of programmed into this thing that they've sort of manufactured. Yes. Yeah. passion or talent that you have um under the guise of it seeming risky or irresponsible and try to go do this thing that seems like in your mind is the normal thing to do like when garth brooks put on that wig and pretended to be that other dude remember that part well i remember that thing i do remember that i love that but i love when someone goes like whoa whoa way off the reservation well i think i think the story wasn't that and i don't know if this is true or not that I love that. I love when someone goes like, whoa, whoa, way off the reservation.

Well, I think the story was that, and I don't know if this is true or not, that there was supposed to be like a movie. Yeah, they did a documentary. They did a behind the music. Is that what it was? About this fake guy. But I think the idea was that it was supposed to be a movie. There it is, Chris Gaines. And then like this was supposed to be like the soundtrack. there it is Chris Gaines

and then and then like this was supposed to be like the soundtrack but I think they the mistake if there was a mistake and I'm not gonna

try to discuss you're such a nice guy Chris career in the realm of making mistakes well you know who am I to judge anybody on what they do

particularly somebody as successful as he is but I love I got friends in low places yeah me too I love a lot of Garth's music. I'm not a Garth Brooks hater.

I think that was a colossal fuck up that I think is hilarious. And if Garth was here, I'd pull that up. And I would tell him I loved him. All right. And I would say, come on, dude. What the fuck were you smoking back then? Like, who talked you into this? Well, you know, I will say, I think at the time that he did that, he had to be into what in the world else can I do?

The only way I can become more successful is if I become someone else and make them successful. He was so successful and still is in that space that he can't be any bigger than he is. Like Stephen King when he used to write as Richard Bachman. Do you remember that? No, I'm not aware of this. Yeah. He wrote a bunch of books under a pseudonym because he was so gigantic that he decided to write some books under a different name so that people would sort of appreciate the work for what it was instead of as a Stephen King book, I think, or just maybe even as an exercise. Right. Well, I think very much that's what it is. Yeah. You know, I would look at it very much the same way. Of course, it's kind of hard when it's

your face up there. You should have put a mask on. Yeah, something. Should have got Rick Baker to do them up with a fake nose. Completely, you know. Yeah. Make him like an ugly, weathered-looking, saddle-worn dude. Put a SEAL wig on. Yeah.

Just go. Yeah. But they had a behind-the-music story on his life story and the drugs and all the problems and the moodiness. But the music was always there. It's a hilarious behind-the-music. You could watch it on YouTube. I highly recommend it. Okay.

Well, I will watch it on YouTube. I haven't seen that particular thing. But he's pulled himself out of that. He had a giant long hiatus. And here's an interesting thing about Garth Brooks. You can't get his shit on iTunes. Oh, no, you have to get it on whatever his... CD or whatever. There's also his personally...

He had something called Ghost Tunes for a minute, I think. Was that the name of it? It was like his own curated streaming service where you stream only Garth Brooks tunes or something like that. I don't know. I remember something about that. Well, I think his idea is

that he wants his albums played from there it is, Ghost Tunes. He wants his albums played from the first song to the last. He doesn't want little bits and chunks. He doesn't want to sell his songs individually. This is what I believe I've read. That he thinks of his albums as

one continuous work and well you know as much as anybody can understand that and want you know very much people to listen to things as bodies of work but in the world we're living in you know sometimes you gotta let people you know skip over a song

let people do whatever they want right I don't want to control I don't want to control people's thing. Yeah, and sometimes it's just a song that gets them, and if you sell that song individually, that'll get them, and then maybe they'll check, all right, I'm listening to this 100 times. What else has Chris got to say? Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

So how did you get, quote unquote, discovered as a singer? You started off as a songwriter, but you were always singing. I was always singing. I was in bluegrass bands. I was in rock bands. Always kind of touring in a pickup truck or something like that. How old are you? I'm 39.

And how many years did you do that for? Well, I moved to Nashville when I was 23. And probably the first three years i was in town i only wrote i'm three times a day living eating sleeping breathing songwriting trying to learn how to do that uh you know in a way that kept me a job at a publishing company so so how does that work when you get signed by a publishing company or you get a job at a publishing company writing well you have you know it, you're a contract labor deal, basically. It's like you sign a deal with, you know,

like you get a year and they get an option or two to pick you back up for another couple of years. And what if one of those songs hits? You know, those terms are worked out, whether you have what percentage of publishing they have and what percentage you have, and they pay you a salary in exchange for, you know. Is it lucrative? It can be, yeah.

It can be if you have a bunch of songs on the radio. And so for you, you were getting by doing this? Well, no, I made a very comfortable living up to the point, you know, and I'm for about, and that allowed me to go out and play bluegrass for next to no money or, you know, play rock and roll and have fun doing it and not worry about that being how I'm making a living, you know, but I got to do it for the right reasons. And so in a lot of ways, you know, the songwriting thing, the commerce paid for the art, I guess, which I'm a firm believer in.

And some people will argue, this is a conversation that Sergio and I will have, the commerce paying for the art, I guess, in that, which I'm a firm believer in. And some people will argue this is a conversation that Surgil and I will have, the commerce paying for the art. Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, it's a great thing. It still is. You know, I still write songs for people. I still write with people when they ask me to do that because it's cool to get in somebody else's head, you know, or kind of sit down with them and try to help them realize some vision of what it is they want to do. And that's still one of my favorite things to do.

And I'm just as interested in that as I am in doing my own thing a lot. Wow. So when you learn how to write music, when you would write, do you sit down with an idea in mind with a guitar? Do you sit down with a pen and pad? Like, how do you write songs? Well, if I'm writing by myself or with somebody? By yourself. Because there's a lot of different processes.

It can be, you know, whatever comes up that day. For me, generally, if I was just going to say, hey, I'm going to sit down and go over in that corner and write a song, I'd have a guitar, I'd probably have a legal pad and a pen, much like we have sitting right here. And I'd start strumming until that felt like something. And how does that make me feel? I don't know. I'd start humming a melody maybe. And hopefully somewhere in humming the melody, a word would pop out or a noise I would make would turn into a word.

And from there, you can kind of grow this thing into whatever it is supposed to be. Now that's how I would do it if I was sitting around by myself. Now there's other times you and I could be having a conversation and you could say a phrase or a line or I could read a sign going down the road. If you're a songwriter, you're always writing songs. Right. It's not like a choice that you have. It's like an affliction that you have in some way.

So you're just kind of walking around unconsciously. Things will hit you, you know, or moments will hit you or a visual will hit you. And that will spark something. So that's really, it can come from anywhere. And that's the truth. It sounds a lot like writing comedy. I'm sure – I personally cannot write comedy, but I would think the creative process is very much the same. You're trying to kind of take life and distill it into something that evokes an emotional response.

Do you sometimes sit down with a blank slate? Like you have no idea what you want to talk about or write about? Absolutely. And that's, you know, back to the publishing deal thing, that was my job. Like we would set appointments. We'd come in at noon and I have an appointment with writer ABC, you know, and we sit down and try to come up with something. Wow. That's got to be weird when you first work with someone for the first time it's a lot of first dates it's a lot of first

dates but you know you you find out pretty quickly uh how you can just kind of uh particularly when you're right with writers who do that a lot uh you can very much walk into a room and kind of throw all the you know, how's you doing? All that kind of is to say, you just get down to it. You just be like, dive into it and start working on something. Hey, this is on my mind. What do you think of this? No, that sucks.

You know, and you have to be not nice a little bit to each other. You have to. And even if you don't know each other well, you have to act like you do in order to get to a spot where a song can be something. And do you ever write with no guitar or no music? I have, absolutely. There's a song that I wrote on the Traveler record that we had a couple records back. Traveler, I wrote driving down the road, you know,

driving down through the desert on Interstate 40, you know. Wrote the whole thing driving and then I had to go figure out how to play it. Wow. So as you were driving,

did you record it? Yeah, I had a phone. This is, you know, I just turned the voice recorder on. Right. You know,

I'm on the phone and trying to, you know, my wife was asleep in the seat next to me so i'm trying not to wake my wife up i'm being real quiet oh wow but yeah and then you get it done and you put it away and you go listen to it later and see what happens wow so in all these years how many songs do you think you've written uh in excess of a thousand probably somewhere like that do you have stacks of them like laying around somewhere i mean they're all cataloged you know at the

publishing company i write for you know and they're all you know uh you know accounted for for the most part and i can kind of go back through them and dig in them if i need to would you do that like for an album do you think that's what i've been doing yeah yeah all the you know this record we're putting out and the last record that we have out, save for a few covers, they're all songs that are, you know, a decade old or something.

Wow, no kidding. Yeah. So Might As Well Get Stoned, how long is that one? Oh, God, that song is, it's probably one of the first songs I wrote when I moved to town, so I was probably 25 when I wrote that. So, yeah, it's 13 years old, something like that.

Dude, love that song. I love all your songs, man. I'm a big fan. Thank you. So when you are touring now, are you bringing your own opening acts with you? Are you deciding who comes out with you? Yeah, well, we try to pick people that we know and love and we think fit musically or we just want to support. And we have a lot of great people out on the road with us.

We have Brent Cobb and Margo Price and Anderson East and Marty Stewart. Just, you know, there's a lot of people that we love. Have you listened to any of Brent Cobb or Anderson East? No, no, I'm going to write this down afterwards. Yeah. Give me some suggestions. Yeah, you'll dig it. It's good stuff.

Well, birds of a feather flock together. And I know you type of dudes probably only like other legit type of people. So I probably get some good data. Well, I guess, yeah. No, we love music, and we like to support that. There's something about the art form of music that has always been very inspirational to me, and I've always drawn upon it for, like, do you know that Hunter S. Thompson quote about music being fuel? You ever seen that quote?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. See if you can pull it. It's on my Instagram page from pretty recently. When I was listening to Gary Clark Jr. just a couple of days ago. Dude, that guy can play. Fuck. Dude. That guy's a freak.

He was with Honey Honey. In the best way. Yeah. And they did a version of Midnight Rider. Yeah, here. Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I've always needed fuel.

I'm a serious consumer. On some nights, I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. I like it. I like music in the car myself yeah it's so it's it's uniquely inspirational like very few things and the art of music and music creation is such a I think when it's done correctly I should say is it's a very pure art form in the sense that the people that are doing it are really like digging into their

creative engines and, you know, just getting the gears turning and pulling these things out. And it represents like however much burden you have, uh, in your personality, in your life, and you're like, that can either help you or hurt you in this process. And some people's music sort of represents the torment of their life. And some people's music sort of represents the torment of their life. And some people's music represents the purity of their vision. But it all has different effects on people in some sort of strange and bizarre way. Yeah, I like to say that, you know, the songs – I was talking about this. I forget what I was talking about this.

I like songs that allow you to take ownership of them and make them personal to you. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I like listening. And I think that's probably what we all like about songs eventually is our ability to relate to them. But also they become like I can write a song and I can play a song on a stage, but it doesn't really mean anything until somebody listens to it. And then their, you know, perception of what that song is about in relation to them comes back at us, you know, on a stage or it comes or it lives in the world that way. And that's so cool to me.

That's the thing that makes a song complete i don't feel like they're even done until somebody listens to it and attaches to it right that's that's the thing that i love so much about songs yeah and everybody's thing is different too right it's like you could have two songs that are the exact same song but they're sung by different people and they have a completely different feeling. Like certain covers, you listen to certain covers, you're just like, whoa. It just hits you in a totally different way. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other side of that is two different people can listen to the same version of a song and it means totally different things to them.

Yeah. Because they attach the pieces of their life to it in a way that is unique to them. And that's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah, it's interactive in some sort of a weird way, right? Yeah, absolutely. And if it's not, it's nothing exists. What I mean by sometimes people's music represents sort of the torment that's going on in their own personal...

What I was thinking specifically of was Amy Winehouse. I was a big Amy Winehouse fan. And there's something about that. She was great. Fucking phenomenal. And something about that rehab song. Because she put that rehab song out when everyone knew she was a mess. Right.

And then she still, you know, try to make me go to rehab. I said no. She made it sound happy. Yeah. She's like, fuck it it i'm riding this thing right into the beach right i'm not stopping for the rocks right i'm hitting the throttle i'm gonna see where this goes it was tragic but it produced some some phenomenal music no doubt yeah there

was something to it there was like almost a fatalistic acceptance of her own fate or something like well and we can listen to it in that perspective now that she's not with us anymore but you know at the time it's you know it was a lot of teenage angst yeah almost celebratory yeah it felt celebratory at the time on the other side of of the tragedy of it uh it has a little more weight, I think. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But, I mean, man, if you stop and think about how many tortured souls put out unbelievable music. Oh, I think it's, you know, to some degree, some of the greats, you know, it's almost

like a requirement that they are a little bit out there. Yeah. You know, and so, which is, it's a horrible thing for them, but it's a beautiful thing for the rest of us who get to listen to it. Yeah. Right. Man, it's just the just to be an artist in any form. Right. Requires all this vulnerability and just trying to trying to find whatever it is. When you're trying to create something, where is that coming from? The ether, the muse, just trying to find that thing. And then when you're dealing with your own personal demons, especially the deep drug demons,

seem to produce some of the most insane music ever. You think of Hendrix and Kurt Cobain. Absolutely. And you keep going down that list forever, really. Yeah, and I have a songwriter friend who is convinced Hendrix and Kurt Cobain. Absolutely. And you keep going down that list forever, really. Yeah. And I have a songwriter friend who is convinced that you can't really produce something that is, you know, really noteworthy unless you have some kind of an addiction issue. Really? Yeah.

But I don't know if that's true, but you're saying that very thing. You look back at history of rock and roll and music in general, there's a lot of heavy drugs and a lot of getting out there on the edge that has, in fact, produced some of the greatest music that we've ever heard. You also can hear it in the music. Stevie Ray Vaughan's a great example. You hear the getting out there on the edge in the music. Like Stevie Ray Vaughan's a great example. You like hear the getting out there on the edge in the music. Absolutely. You hear it with every ounce of everything in it.

Yeah, it's like there's no safety net in that kind of music. It's just all raw. Yep. Absolutely. You've got a crazy life, man. It's a crazy way to make a living. It is a crazy way to make a living. You must be super happy.

I don't have any of those issues. I don't know what you're talking about. I know, but you don't have to have any of those issues. I don't think that you have to have an addiction issue to be great. I just think you just have to pursue it. Yeah. You know? Well, maybe the addiction.

I mean, there can be healthy addictions. Mm-hmm. That's true. I think everybody. That's a good way to look at it. Most people that I meet that are successful in one way or another, they have at the very least kind of obsessive tendencies about something. Right. And generally it's some part of the work.

But, yeah, it's – and focus. I see a lot of focus, like this kind of super-focused thing that when you see certain people, you're like, oh, that's why he can do that. Yeah. Or she can do that. They have this ability to focus. Yeah. I've always been amazed, too, when someone can take an instrument and make that instrument sound very specific to them. Like Gary Clark Jr. is another good example of that.

Like, um, see if you can find that video that I've put up on my Instagram way back when with Honey Honey, uh, Honey Honey and Gary Clark Jr. performed this really tiny place in downtown LA about maybe a year ago. And, uh, they did a midnight set on like a wednesday night or some shit and uh gary clark is up there doing the allman brothers midnight rider like listen to this and it's that's that's him you know what i'm saying like that sound that's him. You know what I'm saying? That sound? That's him. I mean, come on. He's mean, man. That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Like, that is him.

Well, that is him, but it's also everybody that's before him. Oh, yeah. And he's probably the one guy that we have in modern times that really can carry that torch for the blues and all those great, you know, great guitar players that we don't have a lot of them left, you know. I mean, he can do that, and that's real kind of, you know, B.B. King approach, you know, just playing some real straight line stuff.

But then he can do Hendrix and be crazy and psychedelic too. He can do any of that. Yeah. And that's, you know, that guy shines when you step on a stage with him. You know, we played, he and I and Bonnie Raitt played a B.B. King tribute on the Grammys a few years back. And that was intimidating because, you know, and, you know, Bonnie Raitt's excellent in her own way. And, you know, Bonnie Raitt's excellent in her own way. You know, like she has that thing just like he has where it's just like those people are special people.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And there's something about them that, like what Hunter was saying, that they're fuel. Like I saw that and I ran home and I wrote. I wrote for like three hours. Yeah. So I just was pumped up.

I just felt like I'd seen something. You know, like, I just touched some new dimension. You listen to a lot of Freddie King? You ever listen to any Freddie King? No. Oh, no. Man, you've got to write this down, too. I'm going to start writing down.

You've got to get on Freddie King. Freddie King. What kind of shit is he? He's blues. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? He's blues. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? He's not with us anymore, but there's B.B. King, Albert King, and Freddie King.

I've never heard of Freddie. Oh. Well, you've probably seen that show Eastbound and Down. Yeah. You know the theme song at the front of that? Yeah. That's Freddie King. Oh.

Okay. When I love Freddie King. Yeah. Oh, okay. But I love Freddie King. Yeah, there's a wealth of fuel if you want some in Freddie King. That's a pretty standard staple of listening for me. If I want to turn something on and let it make me feel right, Freddie King. Freddie King. I got a John Lee Hooker problem. When I start thinking about blues

i just listen to johnny hooker i have so much john lee hooker on my phone i have no room for other people oh you got you got to get you got to get some freddie king in there all right i'll get some freddie king in there but when i when i'm tired i don't feel like working out i put boom boom boom on all right and whoa here we go we're off to the races. It's just something about those types of songs, that deep blues. It's just got this extra special soul to it. You're sort of immersed in the feeling of those people. Yeah, it's heavy-duty stuff, man. Music is heavy-duty stuff, man.

How fortunate do you feel? Oh, I'm the luckiest man in the world. I say that all the time. And it's true. I am absolutely the luckiest dude in the world. I would imagine you feel that way. Yeah, I mean, you found your thing. No, it's actually true.

I think I'm the luckiest guy in the world, but I'll let you slide. All right. Because you're here. Well, I'm top five. I'm top five. I think we're all the luckiest person in the world if you actually found your thing that you like to do. Yeah.

And you don't really, you work, but you don't really work work. Well, yeah. I mean, listen, I do a lot. We do a lot. Yeah. It's work. It's work in the sense of it's time consuming.

Yes. It requires effort and focus. But yes. But listen, there's nothing else I would rather do for a living, and I'm grateful and thankful every day for it because I love it. Well, you could tell. I mean, it really comes out in your music. You really could tell.

It's pure. Do you listen to any classical? Any classical music? Yeah. You know, when I was a kid, I used to listen to more classical music than I do now. But, you know, I enjoy occasionally going to the symphony, you know, but I haven't gone in years. But I do like that music. It moves me in a different kind of way than listening to Freddie King would.

All right. Here's the big question. Jazz. Jazz. I do like jazz music. jazz jazz i do like jazz music not necessarily like super experimental jazz music that gets way way out there like acid jazz you like the coltrane yeah you know well i just yeah and once again i am not a uh in no way am i an authority on jazz but i if it's on i will enjoy it because i enjoy as a musician i enjoy just like I hear enjoy great blues players.

There's so many great musicians in jazz. Like I had an opportunity to write some songs. Dan Wilson called me up one time to go write some songs with the Preservation Hall Jazz Band. And so we wrote some songs. I knew nothing about New Orleans jazz whatsoever. I knew nothing about New Orleans jazz whatsoever. But I went down to New Orleans and I participated in this and wrote these songs that now live in the jazz world. So that really is thrilling to me to get to that thing I was telling you about

where I get to go hop into somebody else's space and see if I'm helpful. You know, that's cool to me, you know. see if I'm helpful. You know, that's cool to me, you know. And so now I have, you know, I have that. It feels like, to me, like that's a feather in my cap. I got to go participate with those guys, and they're so great, every one of them. I have some friends that love that sort of collaboration thing, too,

whether it's in music. I have a good buddy of mine who writes a lot for my friend Tony Hinchcliffe, writes a lot for people for roasts, and he does punch-up on shows and things along those lines. But he relishes that opportunity. He likes collaborating, likes helping people out on stuff. Yeah. Well, this gives you the opportunity to flex your mind in a way that maybe you wouldn't in your own space. Right. What do you do when you're not doing music?

That's all I do, pretty much. Really? What do you do when you're not doing music? That's all I do, pretty much. Really? Yeah. I play music and I, you know, I like to, I have things I like to do. You know, I like to fish.

Me too. But I don't get to do that a whole lot. Bass fish? What do you do? I grew up on a trout stream. Oh, yeah? Where? I'm not a fly fisherman in Kentucky, but I'm not a fly fisherman, but, you know.

Spinning tackle? Yeah, just spinning tackle. I used to use a little ultralight spinning rig. My summers were spent as a kid. I'd be in the creek at 530, you know. My friend Steve Ronell was just talking to a famous writer recently in his last podcast. I don't remember the man's name, but he's famous in the fishing writing world. And he's a fly fisherman. like he had a really interesting question he said why is

so much great great literature attached to fly fishing but not to spin tackle and it's true that's a good question and i i think uh that's the that's the uh i don't know it's kind of like using spin tackles like this workman. It's like a blue-collar way of doing it. That's my perception of it. And then people who are fly fishermen, and I've seen these guys in action, you know, use a fly rod. There's an art to it, but there's an art to using all of it. But the guys who are fly fishermen take a lot more pride in the art of it.

Yeah. And the and the and this and please forgive me fishermen out there if I'm if I'm misrepresenting anybody who likes to do either of these things but my perception of it is you know the guys with a spinner reel and then me I just want to catch the fish. Right. right right i'm not you know if it means i'm flipping it out there if it means i'm tossing it if it means i'm jig fishing with it doesn't matter i i want to figure out the way to catch the fish the fly fishermen they like the process yeah i started out with uh a spinning rod um i actually started out with one of the Zebco push-button spin cast jammies. And then I went to bait casting reel for bass.

And then when I got into trout fishing, I eventually moved on to fly fishing and learned how to tie some flies. So you're serious about it. I'm sitting here talking about your hobby. It's been a long time. Now when I fish, I fish maybe once a year, like on vacation. Yeah, that's basically what happens for me is I charter a guy on a boat somewhere to go. Yeah, it's fun.

Which is easy. It's fun, yeah. I've done it in Hawaii, in Mexico. And the great thing is, like, say if you're staying at a resort, either, like, you could rent a boat, they'll take you out, you catch a tuna or something like that, and then you cook it and eat it for lunch and it's amazing. Yeah, no, that's great.

Yeah. That's about the extent of my fishing these days. My other outdoor activities have sort of overwhelmed my fishing time, but there's something about the people that get into fly fishing that it's not just fishing. One of the weird things about fly fishing is a lot of them let the fish go. There's a lot of catch and release going on with fly fishing. Yeah, I mean, and I like that too.

I mean, I used to let a lot of them go. I get that, but I'm a little tormented on that. You're putting a fucking hook through something's head, and you're going to let it go. Like, how about just not doing that if you really love the fish? How about just fish with no hook at all? And they bite it, you know, you know, you would have had them. That's probably fair. Yeah. It's probably the way to go. It's weird that we, it's this weird thing that we have in our head. We were trying to activate those reward systems that were there in place in order to keep ourselves fed right like if you there's a

thing that happens when you catch a fish you've seen like i've seen with my little kids um i've taken my my daughter's fishing and when they catch a fish they have this look on their face like oh oh i got it i got it i got it oh yeah yeah like is it super exciting when they pull it out of the boat and then the fact that they're going to get to eat it later, there's some weird primal DNA thing that gets activated when you catch something. And I think that's what these fly fishermen that are letting the fish go are trying to do. They're just little junkies for that feeling, that DNA activation, that reward system thing. And obviously it's difficult. And obviously there's a lot of tremendous amount of skill and finesse involved in fly casting and roll casting and trying to place this fly right

in this little pool and drag it with the current and get that nasty trout to bite onto it but you also want to own it you want to have him and let him go like you don't want to like say i could have had you but there's no hook on the dark side of fly fishing yeah you want to have him and let him go. Like, you don't want to, like, say, I could have had you, but there's no hook on that. The dark side of fly fishing. Yeah. You want to know you got it. You don't want to know he bit. You want to know you got it.

So no one goes fly fishing with no hook. They go with a barbless hook, and they'll catch it, and then they'll let it go. And it's, ah, it's fine. It's a barbless hook. Like, okay. How about I put a barbless hook through your fucking face? Like, that shit ain't good. That's not good.

You're trying to ruin fishing for all catch and release fishermen. I am not. And I support it 100% and I've done it. I'm a hypocrite in that regard. I have done some catch and release. But I feel like there is a weirdness to it that it's this why. Yeah. You're not eating it.

Like why? How about you can't just look at them? No. You got to catch them. You got to catch them and have them and then let them go. But how are you going to look at them if you don't catch them? Look at them in the water. Here's the thing.

A good percentage. I don't know what the number is. Especially when you're like salmon fishing and you're using like heavy tackle. A good percentage if you catch and release into those fish are never going to make it. Catch them with a big lure, barbedbed hooks you get them deep in the throat you pull them out their gills are bleeding you let them go i mean that's i mean that's that's a scenario that you don't like yeah and then in that essence most fishermen i think would know that you can't turn that fish back loose but you have to sometimes well you do have to sometimes yeah but you have to turn them loose because it's the law.

It's the regulations. And you turn it loose and you watch it swim away. You're like, this motherfucker's got about a 40% chance. Yeah. Yeah. No, and everybody hates that. Yeah. It's the worst.

But they still want that feeling. That's a weird, catching the fish thing's a weird feeling. Apparently, it's that way with butterfly catchers, too. Because human beings used to be insectivores. Really? Yeah. I was listening to this lecture once by Terrence McKenna and he was talking about that. Terrence McKenna, the great psychedelic author and lecturer, he was talking about how he was really into butterfly catching at one point in time. And the odd thing is that it activates this very primal reward system in your body the same way catching a fish would. That it's like because human beings used to be insectivores.

We used to eat a lot of insects. So when you do find some rare butterfly that you've been after for months and months and you have the opportunity to drop the net on that motherfucker. I got him. I got him. I got him. Get so excited about him. That's a weird sort of trophy hunting, butterfly hunting, too. Because you're allowed to do that.

You can take that little fucker, dry him out, and put him on a wall somewhere. And nobody thinks you're a barbarian. Like, people are real racist when it comes to what animals are allowed to be dead. You know what I mean? Yeah. Pigs and cows are screwed. Yeah. Yeah. yeah pigs and cows are screwed yeah yeah pigs and cows well i mean but more so bugs you know yeah oh no yeah nobody likes bugs like butterflies and sort of i went to an ashram once and this lady who was running the ashram had a can of uh raid and she was

talking to me about the ant problem that they have. And I was like, hold up. So you spray these ants with poison? And she's like, yeah. And I go, so you kill the ants? I go, isn't that contrary to what you're teaching? She's like, sometimes there's just things you have to do because otherwise the ants will get in our food. And I'm like, okay. I was like, huh.

This is odd. You're in an odd crossroads here, lady. Yeah. You're a Buddhist living in an ashram with a can of poison that you use for living beings that you don't like being around you. I have nothing. I don't know. It's fine.

But if she was like, if she had like cats that she was killing with a baseball bat, everybody would be mad. Oh, she'd be in jail. Yeah. Weird, right? Yeah. With weird rules. Sorry to take you down this road. No, no. This is very interesting to me. I didn't know

that human beings used to be insectivores. Yeah, apparently. We have something new every day. Well, that's one of the things that they talk about in terms of the future of protein. That insects provide very complex, complete proteins and they can provide it to large amounts of people fairly inexpensively.

And so cricket protein is very popular today. I don't know if you know this. No. A lot of people eat cricket protein. Yeah, they have cricket bars and shit. Cricket bars? Yeah, they make bars out of crickets. Yeah, cricket protein bars.

And apparently they taste pretty good. Well, you know, my daughter ate, you know, we bought like on vacation somewhere like out of crickets. Yeah, cricket protein bars. And apparently they taste pretty good. Well, you know, my daughter ate, you know, we bought like on vacation somewhere, like this novelty sack of like barbecue crickets or something because the kids wanted to try them. Of course, my son was like, after he actually got it out of the package, he was like, I don't know about that. My daughter was like, I'll try it. And she ate it.

And then she was like, it's pretty good. They're not bad. What is this? It's a cricket milkshake. Hey. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Is that pre-made?

There's the cricket bars. I think it would look more palatable if they didn't have a picture of a cricket crawling out of it. Yeah. Hide that shit. So there's the cricket protein powder. They cook the cricket, grind those little fuckers up, and turn it into protein powder. And it apparently has a complete amino acid profile. It's easy to digest and it doesn't make people feel bad. Like look at that. Look at the, the grams of protein per 100 gallons of water, how much you can get

for a cow. You only get six grams of protein for a hundred grams of water or a hundred gallons of water. But for crickets, you get 71 grams of protein for the same amount water or 100 gallons of water but for crickets you get 71 grams of protein for the same amount of water wow so it's more than 10 times the amount of protein so you could and i don't think it has near the impact on the environment um in terms of like raising them they don't have like a lot of the waste products and the the issues that cows have. Methane. Smells. This is amazing. Sorry, dude. Let's go back to music.

No, it's all good. I'm sitting here thinking about eating crickets. I'm thinking about switching. I've had crickets before, man. I was in Mexico, and they cooked them and left them in the room. We stayed at a hotel. Like it was a little snack. Yeah, like a little snack thing.

It was a little, they were like a, almost like a soy sauce based or some sort of a salt based. Like they're chips or something. Yeah, and they were fried. And you just crunch them. And I was like, okay, these are actually pretty good. They're like, they're essentially related, a lot of bugs are related to shellfish. Whereas like we found on Fear Factor that if you're allergic to shrimp, you're also allergic to roaches. Really?

Yeah, we found that out because we made a dude eat roaches. And he started having an allergic reaction. We had to, they had to get him a shot of adrenaline and take him to the hospital. That's awful. Yeah. That was a bad day. Yeah, you know, I guess your throat closes up on you and you start, you know, a lot of inflammation. You start wheezing. Yeah, it's not fun. Yeah. That was a bad day. Yeah, you know, I guess your throat closes up on you and you start, you know, a lot of inflammation. You start wheezing.

Yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, but crickets, good and high in protein. You ever eat anything weird? Are you like a straight-laced eater? Yeah, I'm pretty straight. Wild game? My dad was a bird hunter and a rabbit hunter growing up, but I've never, you know, I never loved it.

No, no. It's all about how it's cooked really. Right. Yeah. And I don't know if we ever got that down at my house. So yeah, it's, it's tricky. Like, I think if you're around a real wild game chef, like there's a guy named Hank Shaw, who's been on this podcast before, who is a hunter.

Who's also like a real extraordinary chef. And he makes these amazing dishes with wild game. And he's one of those guys that's like, you know, you think it's bad because you haven't cooked it right. Let me cook it. Yeah, I think there's a lost art to some of it, you know, or a lesser known art maybe. Where are you living right now, man?

I live south of Nashville, Tennessee. So when you flew into hell today and you see, like, literally it's on fire. For people listening at this point in time, this is one of the worst fires in the history of Los Angeles. It's pretty scary. Yeah, because it's what's called a dry hurricane, meaning there's hurricane-force winds, but there's no rain, and the fires are going fucking crazy. 50,000 acres down in a day is nothing right now. Yeah. It's nothing right now.

Yeah. We've been here a few days, and we got in two or three days ago, and we've been doing some other things, TV things and whatever. But waking up to that on the news is not a fun thing to watch, and I'm so heartbroken for everybody losing their homes. It's a pretty tragic, awful thing to have to watch. Yeah, it certainly is. It's the side effect of living in a place that doesn't have any weather.

You know? There you go. Everything dries out. It so rarely rains here. And when you get like these crazy winds, the Santa Ana winds that happen every year, this is extraordinary, the winds here, and just perfect time for fires, obviously. So is somebody kicking these things up, or what's the deal, really? No one knows.

It could be arson. It could be, you know. It feels like that. Could be. Look, there's some sick fucks out there. They know that the wind is a bad thing for fire, and then all of a sudden the fire shows up. It's entirely possible that out of 20 million people, there's one or two people that are out of their fucking mind. Yeah, that's way out there. Is that what you were thinking?

I don't know. I just watch it, and I'm just like like i mean the how does the fire spontaneously start you know that yeah in these yeah i don't know it just seems well you're probably right i mean that's one of the suspicions is that it's arson related or there's several fires one of them that's what i'm saying there's so many yeah going at this point i'm just like somebody running around like thinking, I don't know what they get off on it or whatever. Yeah. They happened simultaneously all during the same crazy conditions and they happened like way far apart from each other. So you talk to firefighters about it and they're like, there's a lot of times we don't know, but there's a lot of times it's some serious suspicions. You know, it's just, it's unfortunate

that you would have to think about that. I mean, think about all these human beings, and there's one or two or whatever the number is that are so tortured and so in pain and so fucked up. Their wires are so crossed. They just want to burn something down. Yeah, I don't get it. Yeah. I don't get it. Of course. And I hope that's not the case.

I watch all these guys on the news up on the roofs trying to save their property or firefighters putting themselves in harm's way or guys flying helicopters dumping water in zero visibility conditions. And it's just like, man, it's just awful. It is awful. You know, around this time of year, you really appreciate firefighters. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think a lot of people take them for granted most of the time until you need them. They're like, there are superheroes that only get credit when they do some shit. Right. You know, and when they do do some shit, you realize like, oh,

without them, like I talked to a firefighter once, it freaked me the fuck out. He was saying, it's just a matter of time till one day with the right winds, there's a fire that burns all the way to the ocean just goes right through la and there's nothing we can do about it and i was like what he's like it's a matter of time he goes everybody thinks it it's just a matter of catching the right fire and then you realize today like oh he's right like oh yeah bel-air is on fire yeah where all the rich people live that's on fire yeah no it's uh like i said it's like live on the news we're watching it in the hotel room you know it's just

pretty hardcore yeah we i mean we changed our route to get over here today just to get it because there's road closures and right like that you know did it take you more time i think we gave ourselves like an hour and uh hour and 20 minutes hour and a half to get around the day. What else you got going on right now? We did a few TV things, and we're kind of winding down for the year, and then we'll kick back up into January, get the Grammys in January, I guess, and then kind of slowly get back into it. But my wife's pregnant with twins, so we're trying to be. Oh, wow. Congratulations.

Thank you. back into it but my wife's pregnant with twins so we're trying to oh wow congratulations thank you uh you know have and she toured with and sings with me pretty much all the time and so we're trying to figure out the new reality of that you know right we have two kids out with us but now we're going to four so it's how old are your kids they're eight and seven so do you bring a tutor on the road with you how do you do that My mother-in-law is a retired second-grade school teacher. Convenient. Yeah. So we homeschool our children on the road.

But when they study the Boston Tea Party, they get to go look at all the stuff in Boston. Oh, wow. It's a different kind of education, but things like that kind of live and breathe for them a little bit more than what I got growing up. And hopefully someday they'll appreciate that. Oh, I'm sure they will. I mean, it's got to be interesting to them, too, to see their dad go from being a singer songwriter to all of a sudden being a celebrity singer. Have they realized that? I don't know.

I think to them, they're young enough that it just seems like, yeah, mom and dad have to go sing a show. It's just what they do. Yeah. When are your mom and dad going to go sing? My mom makes houses. She doesn't sing. Yeah.

They don't have real – they don't have anything else to compare it to. Right. Point of reference. Right, point of reference. Yeah, point of reference is what I was looking for. So it's just kind of what life is to them. When you tour, how long do you go? How much of a stretch? Well, we very rarely try to, I mean, we try to be weekend warriors as much as we can and do Thursday, Friday, Saturday runs.

But some things logistically that doesn't make any sense. If you're going to run across Canada or we're, you know, based in Nashville. So if we want to run the West Coast, we're out here for a couple weeks or something like that. But never longer than that. You know, we never try to stay out. We're not very rock and roll about it. We don't live out there and don't want to, you know.

So I love to play shows. There's a limit on how many I can sing in a week. Three is the limit. So we stick with that and try to make that have as much kind of home time. So all the guys in the band, the crew, and everybody's got kids and families and things. It's a hard way to make a living if you're always gone, like months and months and months gone. That's the rock and roll way of doing things a lot. Yeah.

I know Sturgill had to do that like that for a while. He didn't have to. He chose to. Chose to. Yeah. I had to convince him of that. You had to convince him of that, that he didn't have to? Yeah.

Only he convinces himself of anything. I'm not going to say that I convinced him. I know what you're saying, but you influenced him. Well, I'm not even going to say I influenced him, but I would tell him. Suggested. I would tell him, hey, man, you don't have to. Why are you influenced him. Well, I'm not even going to say I influenced him, but I would tell him. Suggested. I would tell him, hey, man, you don't have to. Why are you doing this? Oh, okay.

So he felt like what – I think all his years of working regular jobs, you know, working on the railroad and doing all the shit that he had to do, when success came, he was like, Jesus Christ, I've got to keep this fire going. Oh, absolutely. Well, and – Get the kindling, you know, chop wood. Absolutely. You have this moment, you know, when you have a little something going on where you're like, well, I've got to, you know, make hay while the sun's shining. I understand that wholeheartedly.

But, you know, we're all human beings and we all have limits. Yeah. Do you have a limit of the amount of days that you could sing in a week? Yeah, three. That's it? That's it. And then your voice starts to get strained? Yeah.

I mean, I sing pretty hard, too. So, yeah, that's the end. And I have conversations with other singers when I run into them. It's like, how many shows can you play in a week? And, you know, some guys it's two. Some guys it's like I can play every day of the week. Wow. But that's not me.

Three shows is kind of the limit. Do you ever have a greedy McMoney Bags agent that's like I can play every day of the week. Wow. But that's not me. Three shows is kind of the limit. Do you ever have a greedy McMoney Bags agent that's like, listen, Chris, four shows a week, 25% more money. Well, just one more show. I wouldn't call anybody I work with greedy McMoney Bags.

Not going to hurt you, Christopher. Two shows a night, not a big deal. Certainly, you know, certainly everybody,. But certainly everybody wants, as you work with, and that's their job, is to try to maximize what you're able to do monetarily. And sometimes you just have to look at them and go, sorry, I can't do that. So ultimately you're the captain. Yeah, not physically possible. And then they have to deal within those parameters and figure out how to maximize that. Does every country music singer have to live around Nashville?

Is that like requisite? I don't. It seems like it's a giant collection of you fuckers living in this one spot. Well, I mean, that is the kind of the hub for, you know, like actors living in L.A. or something. Right, right. Or New York, whatever. I something it's like or new york whatever whatever the i think it's la if you want to if you want to be uh in a certain industry it helps you know must win it must be present to win you know yeah uh to some degree you know

do you feel that that place has a certain energy to it as well, though? It does have an energy to it, and it has had an energy to it, and it's a very changing energy at the moment. I don't live in Nashville proper anymore, but I did for years. But it's a different place, you know, and it's not just a music place, but there's so much else going on. There's 19 or 20 cranes building condos downtown you know it's what's going on in nashville that just i don't know there's a everybody wants to buy a condo i guess i don't know i don't understand it but uh yeah it's there's an influx of people who all of

a sudden think it's a good idea to move to nashville yeah well that's what i had heard i'd heard that it's uh it's almost becoming like LA-ified. A little bit. I don't know what that means, but if that means that there's a lot of condo building going on. Do you see a lot of chicks with lips like this? Man, I really, I'll be honest, I don't run around and I go into Nashville when I have to go into Nashville for certain things. For supplies. Yeah, for supplies. And then I park myself out in the country.

So that's where you live. That's nice. Got a spread? Yeah. We have a little bit of land. Wildlife, animals? Oh, yeah. None of those.

Bobcats and turkeys. Oh, that's nice. Deer. You name it. Yeah, what I've heard about Nashville is that Nashville started out as sort of this pure sort of music environment. And then over time, it became a money grab. And people realized that it's a music environment. And they said, how do we capitalize on this?

And then people said, oh, I heard this is a music environment. I'm going to move there. And then it became like a place to be to be seen and that it's it's still got the music there but it's it's also like weirdly compromised does that make sense uh no more than anywhere else i mean i think right is that human nature man i don't know i i don't want to say – it sounds very like anti-any corporate involvement of anything to say that it's been tainted or it's all a money grab or something. I don't think it's all. I'm definitely not saying that. I love Nashville, by the way.

Okay. Well, no, I do too, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the relayed opinion of, or was that your opinion? No, no, it's other people that, I know people that have lived there and then moved back. Gotcha. Yeah, just people that had this romantic notion of, I want to go there, and this is like sort of country-ish city where everybody's soulful, they're all singing songs, and it's just, you go down and see all these amateur bands, or bands that are just starting out and they're amazing.

Yeah, I don't think that that's really – that's some kind of Mayberry version of what Nashville is. I mean, that's – Narnia. Yeah, I think that's some kind of unicorn that you're inventing in your mind if you think that that's – any town that you're going to. In your mind, if you think that that's any town that you're going to, it's like, I don't know. I don't know what the equivalent would be, but feeling like you moved to some island somewhere and everybody walks around and has yachts and just drinks martinis all day or whatever. It's just like, that's not even true. Well, there's places that you're supposed to go to.

When I was in Boston, when I first started out doing stand-up, I had heard about the Comedy Store. That was like the mecca. Right. Like you had to get to the Comedy Store in Hollywood. Right. It was like spoken with harsh tones. And everybody sort of came to that place. It's like it drew everybody in from across the country.

And from my friends like Honey Honey and other people that I know that lived in Nashville for a while, Nashville was kind of that to them. It's like what it was was like this kind of place where you'd seen and heard so much amazing music has come out of that part of the world, and it's so music-centered. I mean, it has a different vibe because it's a very artistic city. Absolutely. Yeah. But there's also a side to it now. And it's been the last five.

Sorry, Nashville, if you feel like I'm talking about you, but it's there's a thing now where you go downtown and it's it's more like you're going to a giant bachelorette party or something. You know, it's just like everybody's, I don't know, just looking to drink their face off and listen to bad covers. You know what I'm saying? I'm sorry. I need to apologize. No, it's okay. You're being honest. And it's great for the city in a lot of ways, tourism-wise and monetarily and all those things.

But it also changes some notions of that romantic thing that you're talking about. Those things still exist, but they have to be like a lot of things that have soul. They need to be sought out. Right. Like the difference between a real old school barbecue joint and TGI Fridays. I have nothing against TGI Fridays, but I know what you mean. I know what you mean, too. I see you laughing at me like backpedaling all the potential. No, no, no, no, no. I'm forcing you into this. I see you laughing at me, like backpedaling all the potential. No, no, no, no, no.

I'm forcing you into this. I didn't mean to. I just, we're just, I'm just talking about, my point about all of it really is the idea of artistic integrity is a fleeting thing and a sacred thing and a critical thing for a guy like you to create the kind of music that you make. And I'm always interested like how someone cultivates that, how someone protects that. Cause I think it's, it's what goes away. It's when, when things go off the rails, it's usually the focus away from the creative aspect of it, the art, the making the thing that you loved in the beginning when you

got into this thing. Right. You know, and sometimes people get, it happens, comedians in a big way. They get movies and they become famous and then they believe their own bullshit and they put out these specials that are terrible. It's, it's real easy to fall into. Sure. And, and I, you know, but there's also, you know, there's a, there's a side of that. I would, I would argue that maybe that is what's in their heart at that moment, and that's just as real as anything else, you know. I would argue that it's they're in the wrong environment.

It's been surrounded by the wrong people with the wrong influences and they have the wrong focus. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'll go with that. But everybody's going to evolve in one way or another. Yeah. For better or worse. Right. And everybody's going to have these high points and low points of where they really were in the zone, so to speak, or not in the zone.

Yeah. Creatively, I think that that's just life. Yeah. But, you know, I don't know. For me, if there's a way to try to preserve some notion of integrity, it's just that thing I was saying earlier. It's just like if you let all the other stuff just put the blinders on and go, all right, here i am here here are the guys that

i play music with and then the girls we're going to sit in the room what are we going to do what will we do if none of this other stuff existed and that's and that's that's the way you keep it where it should be right as you keep it right in the in the moment and right in the room and don't let some of some notion of trying to outdo yourself or out sell yourself or, you know, make more money than the other guy or have a number one over top the other guy or, you know, because all that kind of stuff is manufactured too, like number ones. Right. Those are just numbers. And some of them are so tainted by people just doing things that manufacture that number that they want to have that it's not even a real thing at that point. Right. I don't know. It's not even a real thing at that point. Right.

I don't know. Well, I always felt weird about contests and things that, and any sort of like ranking system that involves art. Okay. So you're way anti any kind of award. Well, I just think that like the Oscars and the Grammys and all that kind of shit like that, like I don't give a fuck who you think is great. I don't think, I don't care who you think is the great at number one. Like the number here's the, and the winner is open the envelope.

Oh my God, is he going to get it? Like the work is the work. The work is done. Like if it's Apocalypse Now is a great fucking movie. It doesn't matter what you give him a gold statue or not. Like what's the work? The work is great. Like for it to win a thing or not win a thing you know and some of the

things that have won you can tell that the win is tainted by the political climate that the people are like leaning towards something that's socially aware and kind so somebody made a movie with lesbians to save the planet from you know i mean it's like that kind of shit becomes like transparent and obvious and you can do that and rig the system and win an award. I think that awards for art are goofy. Awards for comedy are super. Every comedy competition I've ever seen, they're super goofy. It's just missing the whole idea of the thing.

The whole idea of the thing is supposed to be the art. It's not supposed to be trying to win an award. No, it's not. But if you win an award out of that and it allows you to make more art and it makes people pay attention to the art so so be it yeah it's sort of a bastardization it's always felt like about that there was a show called last comic standing and the good thing about it was that it got a lot of comics that people hadn't heard of and they put them on television and helped their career. But the bad thing was they're doing like a contest and like, who's the audience? Clap for more.

Do you want Mike? Yay. What about Debbie? Not too much. That's fucking weird. It's weird. Okay. We have a lot of those shows.

Yes. There's not as many anymore. A lot of them are singing, right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. People like to watch those shows. Yeah. anymore a lot of from the singing right that's what i'm saying people like to watch those shows yeah because people also like the idea that you can be one thing one minute and one moment on television can make you some other totally different person people love that like that's

why susan boyle was so famous right yes we saw this woman everybody was doubting her she goes out there and she's got pipes. And she belts that song out. And you can see Simon, who's just a douchebag, was like, holy shit. She's amazing. Like, you could see it. Like, undeniable. Right.

You know? Those are good moments, though. Yes. Those are good moments. Those are the best moments. The other good moments are like when they have American Idol and they have those people that have no business being there and they play their auditions too. Those are the other good moments for the wrong reasons,

right? Yes. But, you know, if you're watching that show, you're watching it for that too. Right. Is there a good show to introduce people to country music? Like, you know, they used to have, there used to be like shows where people could, you know. Yeah, we used to have shows where people could –

Yeah, we used to have Nashville Now and things like that. I don't think that really exists anymore, like a country music-specific show. Yeah. No, I don't think we really have that anymore, like a variety show, like Johnny Cash Show or Glenn Campbell Show or something like that. No, we don't have that anymore. And I don't know how much people want that anymore. Otherwise, it might exist. Oh, man.

I think someone needs to just make it. Maybe there's not the right person to do it. I don't know. I just think someone needs to make it. I feel like there's so much. You're telling me about all these artists I've got to go look into. And I'm sure there's a bunch that are coming up that are probably equally talented. And maybe they just need an opportunity like that.

Something along those lines, some sort of a show, a variety show, where really talented people can come on and show their songs. It'd be good. Well, the closest thing to that right now, have you seen this Mike Judge show? Mike Judge, the guy from King of the Hill? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beavis and Butthead? Tales from the Tour Bus Or something like that

No what is that He talks to all these Old school like Texas country acts Or like It's all these All the folklore Of country music

And he does it Like interview style And they're all Telling these stories Play this trailer Oh man I want to hear this It's phenomenal

I love Mike Judge From the hill Building with a hit record George Jones He had 36 brand new cars My favorite trailer. Oh, man. I want to hear this. I love Mike Judge. From the hillbilly with a hit record. George Jones. He had 36 brand new cars. My favorite had a horn sound like a dying bull. Wow. Jerry Lewis. He bought a machine gun

and shot up a demo ad that was next door to $50,000 worth of false teeth. I knew he was fixing to shoot and I didn't want to be in the last time. So they would tell stories and then they'd animate them. Yeah, well, all these guys that you see animated, these are the real guys that lived a lot of these things

and are telling these stories. These are not made-up characters in any way. And I know some of the guys that wind up being animated on these things. And I have for years said you know if even half of the folklore that exists in country music could be told uh it would be the it would be the biggest thing in the world you know and that's what he's doing right now with that show and he's doing an excellent job of it and it's really for me and maybe it's not as entertaining to other people i don't know but for me as a musician knowing knowing some of the folklore

and and and knowing how many great characters and storytellers exist in country music and have existed, it's so refreshing to see these guys get stories told about them. That's awesome. I didn't even know Mike Judge is a country music fan. I didn't either. But I got to tell you, he's knocking it out of the park as far as I'm concerned with this TV show. I hope it does really well. I'm so glad you brought this up. Yeah, it looks hilarious.

It's awesome. And I don't say that about much. I don't really like get super pumped up about a lot. Do you watch other shit? Yeah, you know I like a lot of I like some pretty obvious things like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. I'm into know, I like a lot of, I like, I mean, some pretty obvious things like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. I'm into that.

I like, you know, I like kind of science fiction based things. And, you know, I like, but I like, I like things that are done well, whatever it is. And I think both of those are done well. So do you binge watch TV shows? Absolutely. That's the only way I can watch a TV show, you know, because half the time I'm doing something when it actually comes on. Right, right, right. So when you look at yourself right now and you look at all this cool shit that you're doing, do you hope to just keep doing it this way?

Do you have some grand plans? We far surpass any grand plan that I might have had years ago. So I'm hopeful that we get to continue to do some cool things and have fun doing it. And, you know, I'm at that age where, you know, I'm just old enough not to be stupid with what we're doing. Right. And hopefully young enough to really get to keep doing it for a little while. And, you know, I don't know, man. I'm grateful for anything that we've gotten to do and will get to do in the future.

And hopefully the next few years will just be a continuation of that. That's all you could ask for, man. I mean, what you're doing now is so awesome and so much fun yeah i can't i can't imagine if i if i could like write a script for how you know this is how the the curve of i want my career of putting records out to go i couldn't i couldn't write it any better for me you know I get to do, I have freedom to do basically whatever I want and play however I want and sing about whatever I want. And that's, it's the greatest thing in the world.

Do you get young guys coming up to you, young girls coming up to you that have dreams of being a singer, songwriter? Sure. And ask you for advice? Yeah, and my advice is always just be nice, you know? Be nice? Be nice, yeah. Really?

Yeah, well, I think that's, you know, I think that's always easier than making too many enemies or, you know, you inevitably have people that don't believe in what you do or things. That's just, that's all that subjective thing. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, being nice is important, but also being you.

Be you and be nice, you know. And if you do those two things, I think that's the best recipe to hopefully for you to put yourself in the position to get lucky. Is this something that you had to figure out yourself? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but, you know, when you start and I don't know how it works from your end, what you do when you start and when you get your first little, you know, I get a publishing deal and you get to be around some of what an industry is.

And and then you slowly but surely get to meet people who are successful in different facets of it. And I think what I find is the people that I that I gravitate towards and that I really respect and and look at and go, hey, a career like that would be nice. They're very nice, caring, giving individuals who support younger artists, and they do nice things for their communities, and they do nice things for people out in the world, and they make music that's in their heart. And those are the things that I think are good to aspire to as a musician. And those are the things that I respect. I respect that a whole lot.

Not just talented, but nice. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what about, like, work ethic? Do you have people asking questions about, like, how do do you motivate yourself or how do you sit down and write? How do you like what's your process? You do like what is my advice to them? I say write as much as you can with as many people as you can find who know what they're doing.

And that's how you learn how to write songs. But I'll also say, I used to have a songwriter friend who said, you can't learn how to be a songwriter. You can learn how to write better songs more often. But it's not, you know, it's like, and forgive me if this is a wrong analogy, but I don't think you can really learn how to be funny if you're a comedian. I used to think that. I used to think that. Because I how to be funny if you're a comedian. I used to think that.

I used to think that. Because I used to think, well, you're either funny or not funny. And then I realized, like, oh, some people need to learn how to be comfortable enough to be funny. You think? Yeah. I've met people that sucked. And then they got good. Really?

Like, really good. Well, I'm giving the wrong advice then. Because I don't think you are. I personally think I personally think some of it has to be innate, and then you have to learn how to sharpen that tool a little bit. Well, I think whoever you are can change. And I think if you are in a position where you are incapable of writing songs or incapable of being funny or incapable of writing books or doing paintings or whatever it is, it's because of whoever you are right now.

But that doesn't mean that whoever you are right now is who you're going to be five years from now or whatever. I think if you can go through enough personal growth and enough introspective thinking and objective realization of your environment and then the way you interface with people slowly but surely changes and evolves and matures your art will, your expression will, because you're not who you were. You know, you're not who you were five years ago. You're not who you were 10 years ago. Okay. Okay.

This is my thought. I mean, it doesn't, I don't think it works with everybody. There's some people that just aren't fucking funny. Don't get me wrong. But I used to think that it was just, if you sucked in the beginning, you're going to suck. And then I met some people that sucked. But there has to be some, you know, element spark or drive even. You know, like I think if – would you say that if the person that was trying to be funny

was not funny at first, they at least knew that they weren't funny and had to get better at it? No. No. Sometimes they think they're funny and then they become funny. It's like there's – I used to think that there was much more of a clear, defined pattern than I think now. But I think it's about being clueless. I think cluelessness is the enemy of anything that you're going to make that's going to have a real impact on people. If you're clueless, if you don't see how people perceive you

if you're not aware of how they're taking you in when you're communicating with them your art is gonna suck like you don't have a connection with them you don't have a connection with people you don't have a connection with yourself i think unless there's some sort of a solitary thing that you do like maybe maybe sculpting sculpting or painting, like you could be a mad man is like totally like in your own world and create some crazy art form that someone can come along and look at and go, wow. But anything where you're interacting with people, I think there's a big part of that interaction is the way you look through other people's eyes and the way they take in what you're saying, not just what you want to get out, but also your recognition, whether peripherally or whether it's obviously,

your realization of how they're perceiving your thoughts and ideas and what vehicle you're delivering these ideas in. Is it clunky and too loud, or do you have the same thought and make it smooth and calm and sinking into people with the right words and the right cadence and the right. You can have the same ideas, but they just they need a better vehicle to get through. And I think cluelessness prevents you from objectively analyzing your own work. Gotcha. So self-awareness.

Yeah. Self-awareness is a really important part. And brutal honesty honesty you know with yourself yeah okay i'll go with that yeah i mean you must have that with songs right like do you have songs where you you you write and then you go back and what the fuck is this absolutely absolutely you know but you also have songs where, you know, you're right. Every day you write a song and you get done. You don't get to the end of the day without thinking that you did something good.

Right. But it's only on, you know, you got to get away from it a little bit and then like re-listen to it or re-examine it and go, eh. Or, hey, that was a good one. You know, so I don't think it's easy to feel like you were a genius in the moment. Right. As a songwriter. Especially if you've got a couple of drinks. Yeah, absolutely.

Do you, like, how much of the stuff that you actually write becomes a song that you publish? becomes a song that you publish like like say if you're if you're writing like how many of the the days spent do you does it actually come out to be like a full song oh i can write a song in three hours really but you can also not write a song in three hours right yeah if i don't want to i'm like are you asking if there's like a schedule to write no no no no i mean like how much of it like really really connects with you like i'm sure you must be sitting, sometimes you sit down and on the first draft, you just fucking nail it, right? You got an inspiration. Oh, yeah, me every time. No.

But I'm just trying to see if there's parallels between, because comedy is probably 10 to 1. 10 things I write are bullshit. And one thing, I'm like, hmm, might be something there. Yeah, I think if you're doing 10% of what you do is work that you deem good enough to put out into the world, I think you're probably doing pretty good. I mean, I think that's a pretty good average of things that are worth something. You know, you hope for better, but if you're doing that, I think that's doing your job. But you've got to go – I also believe you've got to go through

some of the ones that aren't there just to kind of flush them out. Right, right. You have to get that out. Otherwise, it's stuck there, and it's going to mess with everything else you're doing. Just, you know, if there's something on your mind to work on, work on it to the end, make it the best you can make it. Then look at it and go, hey, was this really something I should have worked on? Right. Yes or no. And then just then you can push it out and kind of move on. I think that's important to kind of flush out your mind that way creatively.

Do you ever come back to your stuff like like sort of almost like come back to it when you haven't thought about it in forever and look at it with fresh eyes, like almost like you're collaborating with somebody else and redoing their stuff? No, I'm very much the guy who believes like the first instinct is probably the correct one most of the time.

Interesting. I don't like to go back and edit and edit and edit. It's not me. Really? Yeah. So when you write a song, you write and edit. It's not me. Really? Yeah. So when you write a song, you write a song. Pretty much. Wow, that's interesting.

Does everybody do it that way? No, no, not at all. There are guys who will take a whole year to write one song. Really? And I can't write with those guys. I respect them. But I don't have that kind of patience. I don't.

And they've written some songs that I think are fantastic, and I really do appreciate them. But I'm completely impatient writing songs. I feel like, you know, my favorite songs are ones that just kind of fall down out of the sky in a bolt of lightning, and you write it in about 10 minutes, and you're like, that's exactly what it was supposed to be. Right. Great. I'm done. I'm going it was supposed to be. Right. Great. I'm done. I'm going to go eat a sandwich.

Right. How much of your shit do you write under the influence of something? I don't like that. Really? Really, to do that. Nothing? Well, I mean, I'm going to have a sip of bourbon or something. But, you know, I don't like that that much because I like the clarity.

There's a, you know, some guys can't do it without it. Some guys, it's like that makes them all of a sudden turn into the Michael Jordan of songwriting. For me, if I'm going to do something like that, it's recreational, and I'm going to go eat a bunch of chips's recreational and I'm going to go, you know, eat a bunch of chips and watch a movie or something. It's just like I'm not going to get any real, not much worthwhile is going to come out of that for me. Yeah. It's an interesting thing that people have this different approach to essentially what's an open-ended creative avenue.

You know, like creating a song, it's like it's a blank sheet of paper. Right. And so many different people have different approaches to how to make that thing come out of their head. Yeah. Well, and I'm not saying that I haven't tried many different ways to make things happen. I'm not saying that I haven't tried many different ways to make things happen. But I find, you know, for me, the process, the clarity works better than trying to alter myself to get to some other plane. Maybe there is another plane I don't know about, but I've never been there.

Right. I would want, like, George Carlin had an interesting way that he wrote comedy. He would write comedy sober, and then he would smoke a joint and punch it up. Huh. Yeah. So he'd write the initial ideas. He'd write it all out, write out the bit, and then he'd, okay, let's look at this thing again. Well, I mean, I think that probably works in comedy. Yeah.

I've started adopting that. Did you? I used that probably works in comedy. Yeah. I've started adopting that. Did you? I used to write almost all high. Yeah. And now I write 50% high, 50% sober, and then I punch up high. Huh. Okay. Yeah.

But not too high. And punch up is a comedic term for editing. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it depends on some styles of writing. Some guys write in bit form, like they say, so the other day I walked and they write it out like that. These numbers around this dial of this it's a minute is this amount of time And you'll just start writing all these different things and out of that you might write a whole essay And that you might have one paragraph that makes sense like one quick one-liner about time You know maybe it's a an answer to a pretentious friend. It's like there is no time man, right? Yeah, well if you fucking show up late you get fired. It's time for you get a new job

well, if you fucking show up late and you get fired, it's time for you to get a new job, bitch. You know what I mean? Like that could be a way where you could take time and just take like this big essay on it and you would extract an idea that could eventually be humor on stage. But everybody's got a different style of that. Yeah.

You know? That's a lot of thinking. Fuck, man. It's all a lot of thinking, right? Dude, that's why I always love talking to people that do something completely different than me, like you. Because I always want to know, like, okay, how does a guy who writes books do this? How does a guy who writes songs do this? How does a guy who makes movies do this?

Right. You know? Because it seems like it's a lot of the same muscles. But then in talking here, I'm not sure that the processes are exactly. I don't know that they always translate. I think the focus is the same thing. It's like you're whatever your your end goal is, whatever you're trying to create. It's all about showing up and doing that work and staring at it and trying to figure it out.

And then for for comedy, it's a lot about getting in front of the crowds. You've got to work a lot. If you don't work a lot, it's not going to work. It just won't. You have to be out there. You can't just create comedy on your own, whereas I think you with a bunch of, like, talented musicians, you could probably develop a fucking jamming record

before anybody ever got a chance to see it. And that's what you do. Yeah, yeah. It's a completely different style of creation. Although, that's what you do yeah yeah it's a completely different style of creation although we do you know we do try things out on the road you know like and you kind of get a feel for them sometimes that way so yeah we do we do some of that absolutely but probably not as much as what you're talking about yeah i think it's a different art form right um do you ever have do you ever do things specifically with the intention of getting material out of it?

Like in life? Yeah, like go do something. Like maybe if I go do this, I'll figure out, I'll get some songs out of this or something. You know, I don't know that I ever specifically do something to get material out of it, but I do do things because something comes up and I go, that sounds so weird. I'm going to go do that. And then from that. And then from that, either good things happen or I have a story that sounds like it's fake.

way to do it right to just live a happy fulfilled life and mind that happy fulfilled life for ideas rather than chase interesting things with a specific intention of turning them into creativity yeah no i don't think i ever do that but i'd definitely i'd go do things that might make me uncomfortable or uh you know put myself in situations where like this sounds like the weirdest thing ever like what um well you know the in point, and that turned out to be, you know, we're now good friends, but, you know, the first time I ever met Timberlake. Justin Timberlake? Yeah, I got a call to basically play at his birthday party. His wife called me.

And this is no lie. Like, he'd seen a YouTube video or something and said, hey, would you come play? I thought I was getting punked or something. And I was just like, and the conversation with his wife, Jessie, she was like, yeah, you know, there's not a lot of things that, he's done a lot of things. It's hard for me to find new experiences for him. And so I was wondering if you would like to come play at his birthday party. So I'm thinking, and so this is what you came up with. You know, this dude he saw a YouTube video on, get him to come play at his birthday party.

And it turned out to be fine. And we hung out, you know, but, you know, on paper to me it was just like, this is really strange. I don't know that this, I don't know what's going to happen. Right. But out of that, we've become friends and, you know, done things together and good things have come out of it. You know, but there was no intent out of it other than I thought it would be interesting to go do. And so I went and hung out and it turned out to be great. And we're good friends now.

That's pretty badass. Yeah. But that's how we met. Look at you two. Yeah, there we are. And I was literally his birthday present one year. That's wild, man. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, I think that might be the formula just if you can just do things that you find interesting and just have those as being like excellent uh side side adventures in your life right and you know nobody else has to understand it but you and that's that's the cool part about it you know people used to get onto me i used to be in a bluegrass band and they they're like, why are you spending time being in a bluegrass band? Well, out of being in that bluegrass band, I got a cut on Adele. Right. So that, who would have thought that that was the A plus B equals C formula for that? Right.

Go be in a bluegrass band and you'll get a pop cut on the biggest pop star in the world. Isn't that funny, though, that someone would say, hey, why do you want to be in a bluegrass band, and you'll get a pop cut on the biggest pop star award. Isn't that funny, though, that someone would say, hey, why do you want to be in a bluegrass band? Well, they wouldn't say, hey, why do you like going fishing? Yeah, I don't know. You like it. Yeah, I like it. Why do you like bowling? Right.

It's interesting to me. So I'm going to follow that road until it ends or takes a curve or runs off a cliff. Do you do anything specifically to try to enrich your mind? Do you read a lot or anything? I'm not a huge reader. I do play a lot of guitar. I think that's my thing that I really kind of internalize on. Like almost like a meditation?

Yes, absolutely. If I'm feeling bad or in a bad headspace, I'm going to pick up a guitar. If I'm, you know, that's, that's what I do. That, that is, that's, if there's a centering thing, I'm going to pick up a guitar to, to get there for me. I, And I don't know. I don't know if that's mind, if that's flexing your mind a little bit. It is. It's something. But I'll, you know,

playing the guitar is one of those things where you never think that you're ever getting any better at it until one day you wake up and you understand something that you didn't understand and hadn't understood for the 10 years you've been trying to understand it and then all of a sudden you have this new

you know new space to live in on it and and then it's and it's the coolest thing in the world to me whoa i know what you're saying but i don't know it's like plateauing working out or something no like you hit a new level like like you're working out and you're working out and you're working out and you work out for 10 years and you never get you hit this point where you're like all right this is the peak of what i have and then someday for some unknown reason your body or something it makes sense and all of a sudden you could do something you could never do before and that's that's what playing guitar is i do i kind of understand the space you're talking about and i think that applies to a lot of different things you know um is this miyamoto musashi quote that i like i use all the time once you understand the way broadly

you see it in all things and that this this place that you're talking about like these new level places like that exists in martial arts it exists in comedy it exists in writing it exists in i'm sure it exists in music although i don't do music right it's just i think this thing of this zen samurai thing you're talking about of just like this constant focus until you reach some new understanding of the thing and you don't even know how you're getting there but you but you're but you're working towards something that you don't know what it is until you get there yeah and then you get it and you have this new piece of knowledge or it's a piece of you know and it's a new all of a sudden you're something new too and and maybe that's the thing you were talking about earlier about people who suck at comedy.

All of a sudden they're funny. You know, like that's, you know, that's what I get off on is finding that, you know. And I don't claim to be, you know, I'm not like, I don't belong in, you know, Gary Clark Jr. world or anything like that. But I do love guitar enough to know that I'm always playing enough to try to find that new space to live. And that's the coolest thing in the world to me because I'll never get to whatever, there's never an end to it. Right, right. Yeah, there's no perfection. There's no perfection. There's no, there's never an end to it. Right, right. Yeah, there's no perfection. There's no perfection.

There's no, there's never an end to it. It's just a constantly trying to get better at doing what you do or being you, trying to make yourself better. Yeah. And that thing seems to manifest itself more with a singular focus, like guitar. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You have to be, like like way obsessed with one thing yeah and that and that's it for me for the most part chris stampeton you're a bad motherfucker thank you for coming on the show man i really appreciate it man it's been a been a real joy it's a real honor man thank you go buy shit folks it's fucking awesome Alright, we'll see you tomorrow. Bye!