The Joe Rogan Experience - #1064 - Eddie Huang & Jessica Rosenworcel

Episode Date: January 15, 2018

Eddie Huang is a restaurateur, food personality, sandwich hack, former lawyer, and the host of “Huang’s World” on VICELAND. Jessica Rosenworcel is an American lawyer who currently serves as a member of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission.

five four three two one and we're live welcome aboard Jessica Rosen Wurzel did I do it you did I was so nervous about that and Eddie Wong of course he's been on the podcast many times number one podcast in the world oh thank you JRE what's up brother how are you I'm chilling man I'm good I just you know I wanted to introduce you to the homie, the commissioner from the FCC, Jessica Rosenworcel, because things are bad for the internet right now. Well, you are very concerned, and a lot of people are, about net neutrality. And we all have some questions about it, and we're excited to talk to you about it. So maybe we could illuminate some of the issues and give us an understanding or try to help us understand what's at stake here and why are people so concerned?

Well, I think people are concerned because the future of the Internet is the future of everything. I mean, every aspect of our lives is now touched by that connectivity. of our lives is now touched by that connectivity. And it's a funny thing, but the agency where I work in Washington, the Federal Communications Commission, has enormous power and control over our internet experience. And for decades, we've had these policies that have been all about internet openness. And what that means is you can go where you want, do what you want online, and your broadband provider can't get in the way or prevent you from looking at some websites or looking at some videos or setting up some businesses. But that changed last month in Washington when the FCC, over my objections, voted to end net neutrality. to end net neutrality. And as a result, all of our broadband providers now have the legal right to block websites, to throttle content, and to set up sweetheart paid for prioritization deals.

And over the long haul, that could really change the internet and the web as we know it. Change the Internet and the Web as we know it. Now, one of the arguments pro-net neutrality, one of the arguments for people that were excited about this being signed, they were saying that net neutrality was really only over the last couple of years. And before the last couple of years, net neutrality as we know it, the last couple of years, everything was fine. And that it will continue to be fine and that people are just panicked. And there was that really bizarre video that that one dude made where he was saying, these are all the things you're going to be able to do. You work with that cat? I do.

Ajit. Ajit Pai. Yeah. He seems like an odd fellow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's a he's a smart guy. He's a seasoned lawyer. I think it's fair to say he and I see the world a little differently. Yeah, so he sees this through the eyes of big business, right? He thinks that this is the free market. Let the market decide.

And that's what the argument – I mean, Mark Cuban was arguing against it. So I was like, wow, this is stunning. Yeah, you know, for me, the net neutrality thing is huge because when I was in law school, I read this one book called Fighting for Air and it documented like the Telecommunications Act of 97. It's like boring stuff, right? Don't go read the Telecommunications Act of 97. But like radio mattered to me. Remember like growing up with the radio, like I remember they would actually break records on the radio back in the day. Like, Funk Flex still does it on Hot 97. He'll break records. He broke my boy Old Drew's record the other day. But, like, recently, it's, like, Clear Channel,

iHeartRadio, they own all the radio stations. And it really sterilized content. And they play the same songs every hour in every city almost around the world. And when I read that book and I went to law school, I realized I was like, yo, it was because of the deregulation of radio that allowed for all these local independent radio stations in every city that were repping local culture and state culture that kind of eroded that means of communication. And I was like, this happens to every single industry we have, whether it's radio, television, but now it's coming for the internet. And by deregulating it, you're going to gut it again. And, you know, like when technology started popping and podcasts came around, I mean, that's what enabled JRE.

And that's why my first place to go is like, I'm going to come see Joe. Because you were one of the innovators with this new technology. Well, thanks. But I think what people are super concerned about is things getting blocked, right? Right. That's like one of the first ones. Yes. Is that something that we legitimately have to worry about?

This is a good question. Here's what I know. Right now, your broadband provider has the technical ability to block content and websites. It's got the business incentive to block or slow access to some websites if they don't have a special commercial relationship with them. And now the FCC just gave them the legal green right. Just go ahead. And so I feel over time, this is something we need to be concerned about. And so this open platform that was full of independent voices,

now you've got this new gatekeeper, your broadband provider. They've got a lot more power than what they used to. How close was the vote? It was 3-2. And what's the argument for this? Well, that's fair. I think there's an argument that you want government out of the way. Deregulation is going to lead to more competition, and we'll have a flourishing of new ideas and content if we

just move government out of the way. And even if you're sympathetic to that argument, here's where I think it breaks down. According to the FCC's own data, half of the households in this country don't have a choice of broadband provider. I'm familiar with this. I'm one of them. I only have one provider that serves my house. So the thing is, if your broadband provider started blocking your content or throttling your access to some video,

in a competitive market, you'd pick up, you'd take your business somewhere else. But about half of our households don't even have that opportunity. So to me, the idea that the competitive market will prevent this behavior just doesn't fly. Yeah, that doesn't seem to make sense. And that's an issue in my neighborhood as well. And a lot of other people I know as well. I mean, I think they make deals where only one company, whether it's Verizon or whatever, has an area. Yeah, they monopolize the areas, they limit the opportunities and choices. And when they say deregulation, it just, anytime they deregulate things and say, hey, we're going to leave it to the market and choices. And when they say deregulation, it just, anytime they deregulate

things and say, hey, we're going to leave it to the market and have competition. I think it's impossible to have that when you have a country with such an income inequality gap, right? That's the problem is that, all right, let's all go compete. Joe, you're not going to start a Verizon. I'm not going to start a Verizon. You know what I mean? Like we can't compete with these dudes. And even Comcast can't even compete with Verizon. Like, you know, these dudes are all getting smashed. So there is not actual competition. I think deregulation works when you have multiple players and options, and that the market actually can come into play. But with the economy so top heavy right now, I don't think there is a possibility of competition.

I mean, listen, competition is the best regulator we know, right? We want there to be these markets where consumers have lots and lots of choices. But if competition isn't existing, you need a little oversight to make sure that every consumer gets a fair shot. Well, it seems like that's where the real argument lies, that if there are monopolies, and there seem to be in areas with in regards to what kind of internet access you can get that if you don't have regulation then then what is going to protect the consumer what is going to protect free speech what's going to protect say if you are on verizon and your system is on verizon what if you decide to make a podcast that criticizes verizon and everybody says you know hey eddie wong's got a podcast criticizing us. I want to shut that down. And they can just. I would have been shut down a long time ago.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not saying that they would do that, but they could. Yeah. And that's what's scary. That's that's not good. So much of our speech these days, it doesn't take place in public places. It takes place on these private platforms. Right. So they have a lot of power. And we have to think about that as a country and a democracy. How much openness do we want? And then how do we create a framework in Washington that supports that openness? And that's really, to me, what net neutrality was about. The other question, you know, let's say a service provider buys Hulu. Right. Or or they buy or they create their own streaming platform called like Zulu.

Right. So they start Zulu. They could start to charge Netflix more money for using their service. They could charge Hulu more money. They could charge, you know, Beats more money, whatever, so that they have an advantage for their own streaming services. And in that way, they can culturally control content. And you're so right. And what happens is you as a consumer, you just get online and you might not even notice, right? You might not even notice they're taking you to the video content that they have a special pay for relationship with.

I think, though, the biggest harm is to entrepreneurship. Because right now, look, you have a good idea. You got a business, a service. You can go online and you can almost instantly have global reach. That's amazing. But now you're going to have to figure out, is your broadband provider instead going to shuffle off all your traffic to someone else who's paying them on the side? Are you going to have a fair shot to show your wares and your ideas to the world? It's harder. Because I start thinking like a bad one percenter dude.

And I'm like, all right, if there's no net neutrality and I'm the only person that can service Calabasas, California, Woodland Hills, California, well, I'm going to charge all the other streaming providers more money to use this. And I'm going to create a competitor in every single one of these sectors. So you can have an advantage if you have your show with me. And if you're on the other one, I'm going to disadvantage you. I'm going to tax you basically. So right now these are concerns and there's nothing that's actually happening yet. This ruling was just passed. That's right.

Are there any plans in place for things that we should be concerned with? And is there anything that we can do about this current ruling? Yes. There's loads because I'm not giving up in the fight for net neutrality. And I don't want you to either. We got a few different pathways ahead. First, in Congress right now, they are trying to get rid of what just happened at the FCC. They're trying to use this law called the Congressional Review Act that in effect just undone everything

that the FCC just did. So it's a way to wipe out what just happened. And while the odds are long, there's more than 40 United States senators who have sponsored that law. And in the House side, there's more than 80 members of the House of Representatives.

So there's momentum growing in Congress to take a look at this issue and maybe fix what the FCC did. And if you're sitting out there and thinking they're not listening to you, what you should do is something totally old fashioned. You should pick up the phone, call your members of Congress and your representatives and let them know you care about this issue. Because that still today is one of the most powerful ways of conveying your opinion to those who represent you. When is the vote happening on that? It is not yet scheduled. I think it's going to happen first in the United States Senate

and later in the House. I also think we are going to have litigation. We've already got a few states attorneys general who want to sue to overturn this. We've got some big companies, some public interest groups. So I think it's fair to say we're going to court. And then we're also seeing activity in state houses and that we've seen net neutrality legislation introduced in Nebraska, Nevada, Washington State, Massachusetts, California, lots of places. Washington State, Massachusetts, California, lots of places. And I'm not sure how that all comes together legally, but what you see is this momentum growing that people are not happy with what Washington just did. The thing that I'm worried about with the state's laws, right? So just to lay it out for the listeners, right? The government will pass the federal law, but then states have their own rights to regulate certain things. Let's say we use marijuana

laws as an example, because recently a lot of states passed legal marijuana laws, right? But then Trump gave people the power to enforce federal laws about marijuana more stringently, right? He was telling the federal government, hey, enforce our federal marijuana laws. Well, it's really Jeff Sessions, right? Yeah, his goon is doing that. But so how would federalism work if states started to pass their own net neutrality laws versus the FCC commission ruling? Yeah, those are hard questions. I mean, they go right to the Constitution, what's interstate, what's within the state's authority. But I'm just standing back and seeing really just a lot of energy on this issue. There's nothing else that I've worked on in Washington, where this immediately state houses

decided to put pen to paper and introduce legislation. And I think that that momentum is what's really exciting here. Well, I think everyone understands the insane power of the internet and what a cultural shift that we've experienced over the last 20 years. I mean, it's unprecedented in human history. There's never been anything like it in terms of access to information, in terms of the rate of change, the way people look at things, the way the issues get discussed, the cycle of news, which is like, what, 10 hours now? Stories come in and out. I mean, Hawaii just had a fake missile attack, and everybody already forgot.

It's already on to the next. Like, what's the next thing? Keep me posted. Check my phone. Because I think we have to fix that. Yes, we certainly should. But what happened in Hawaii? Someone went crazy.

We're still learning. It looks like it was a state-level issue, but you can't have things like that happen. We've got to figure out a way in this digital world that we get accurate information to people faster. And we've got to come up with better systems than the one we just saw. Somebody pressed a button and sent out a text that said that there's an incoming ballistic missile, a possibility, a threat of an incoming ballistic missile, and this is not a drill. And then I have friends in Hawaii, and everyone went crazy. People were crying in the streets.

No one knew what to do. And of course, this is a state that was attacked less than 100 years ago during World War II. So it's not an unusual thing for them. Yeah. I had the privilege of working for Senator Inouye from Hawaii years ago. And I think Hawaiians are, you know, they're graceful, they're resilient, but they live with the knowledge that they are susceptible to some attack. So this gave them 40 minutes, the worst 40 minutes of their life. And the amazing thing to me is it took like 10 minutes or so for this to be corrected on Twitter. It took another half hour for our official systems to update and say, in fact, this was a mistake.

Yeah, once we found out. We got to figure that out. You can't let that happen. Yeah. But then once I figured out it was a mistake, I was like, whoa, maybe I should ask Jessica if we could send like a national message on my birthday, 12 a.m. March 1st and be like, you up? Just a nationwide booty call. I'm going to officially say the FCC will not be helping in that regard. I had to ask.

That's a big question. But what Joe was saying about the internet and how it opened things up, personally for me, today's Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Like today's Martin Luther King Jr. Day, right? And I remember reading Letter from Birmingham Jail as a kid, Jonathan Swift Modest Proposal as a kid, and Tupac Me Against the World. Those were like the three works that made me want to write. And I started writing since I was 15 years old, never gave up. But no one would buy my writing, right? The only place I would buy my writing was Roto-Wire, and I would write fantasy sports updates for them I covered the magic and I covered the knicks but all the way until I was like 28 years old no one wanted to buy my writing it was blogspot that allowed me to write in my own

voice and find my own audience and then people started to see whoa there are like weird children on the internet that like Eddie's writing, like he's creating a lane. And I talked to my publisher at Random House and they're like, yeah, you created a lane selling books to people who don't buy books, non-traditional readers. And so without the Internet, without Blogspot, without that ability to just project my voice and hope someone connects, like I never would have happened. I know we're living through it in real time, but it is totally radical as a matter of human history that you can reach out, reach around the world and build community with total disregard for geography and find people who like fantasy sports or something like that and build community around it. That's an extraordinary thing.

And it has no precedent in human culture. And with translation software, now language is no longer even a barrier. I mean, it's changing and shifting as we speak. New technologies are being developed. I mean, Samsung has a phone now that Note 8, where you could just highlight something, it'll instantly translate it. I mean, they have earbuds where you could put that on the pixel where if you talk to me in Spanish, I'll hear it in English. And this is crazy stuff. Yeah.

This is all changing. Think about what that does for commerce or diplomacy or your ability to talk to me across the table without having a translator in some clunky way try to describe what I just said. Yeah. These things are amazing and And you want all of our collective genius to drive them and not have big gatekeepers like our broadband providers in the way. Yeah, it seems to be a real issue. And I think that we should look at the internet as something different than almost all other services. Because it is our ability. It directly affects our ability to evolve as a culture, our ability to exchange information.

It's so critical and it's so unprecedented. And this is a very powerful thing. And, you know, people would love to have it go back the old way and have you get your news on ABC and NBC and CBS and that's it. People would love that. Because they control you. Sure. I mean, it would be way easier to keep the world, you know, informed in the way that

they would like. Yeah. It would be easier for regulators in Washington, too. I mean, there's disorderly chaos on the Internet, but it creates, listen, it has challenges, but it's unearthed communities and created economic possibility for people like nothing in our history. Yeah, I think it's changing who humans are. I think there's more of an understanding of each other. There's more compassion.

I mean there's also a lot of hate and there's a lot of anger and there's a lot of – but I think with the bad, there's more good. Yeah. Undoubtedly, there's much more good. And to me, it feels like a freedom of speech issue. Yeah. You know, like it's – if this internet kind of superhighway is controlled and there's toll booths everywhere and it gets privatized, like – I mean I lived in Florida. We didn't have money for roads. I saw when things got privatized. You just pay more. You don't have the same service. It's one of those

things like it has to be regulated. It has to be protected and it has to be guaranteed as a thing for all human beings, not even just Americans. Well, it's just, it's stunning to me how many people are against the idea of having an open internet. Well, you know, most of the polling, I think polls are always you've got to be careful, right, because they can ask a question one way and get an answer. But the best one done was right before our vote by the University of Maryland. It found 83 percent of the public supported net neutrality, opposed what we were doing. But who are those 17 percent dummies? That's what I want to know.

I think anything you can get the American public to agree to at 83% is a pretty high market. I think it's wonderful, but I'm stunned. I want to meet the 17%. Yeah, seriously. But isn't there a bunch of people, I feel like there's some, and I wrote about this on Twitter recently, that without judgment, I said that net neutrality seems to me to be one of those ideological issues where if you're on the right, you support it. Or if you're on the left, rather, you support it. Where you're on the right, you would like it to go away. So I'm going to totally disagree with that. Because I think if you are a Democrat or a Republican, you benefit from net neutrality and

internet openness. If you're conservative or liberal, if you're a big business or a small business, you benefit from Internet openness. And the history of net neutrality is something that doesn't get discussed enough, which is that it began the first time the FCC put net neutrality policy on paper. It was 2005. And I'm old enough to remember that that was when President George W. Bush was in the White House. In other words, this country's first net neutrality policies were put on paper when a Republican was running the FCC. It is only in recent days we have characterized this as a left-right issue. And I think that's fundamentally a mistake. How did it happen? When Ajit Pai proposed this legislation and passed it, it baffled me. I thought net neutrality was a thing we had all agreed on. It was like,

we're never touching this. How did this happen? Well, through a whole bunch of boring Washington procedures whereby they circulate out a proposed rulemaking. Oh, no, no, no. But I mean, like, how did he get the power and leverage to pass this? I think that he was supported by people in Washington, including some broadband providers, and was led to believe that with deregulation, we would all be better off. situation we would all be better off. And then what I find interesting is Google, Amazon, Facebook, these big power players used to be very vocal, net neutrality, keep the internet free, things like that. They're not as loud as they used to be. They seem to just be quiet on it.

What do you think is going on there? Well, first I I want to point out that those big companies, through their association, are going to be intervening in the lawsuits in favor of net neutrality. Yeah. So that's true. Yeah. But to me, net neutrality has never really been about big companies. It's about who's going to be the next digital platform, who's going to be the next startup and the next player.

The big companies can always find ways to build relationships and manage this kind of lack of neutrality online with their leverage that come from size. It's the question of who's going to start something up that you and I may not see because they didn't pay off their broadband provider. It's the entrepreneurship that has me most concerned. Like new small business. Yeah. So when I was saying that there's, it seems like an ideological rift, there's certain people that are not very well versed in this issue that automatically side one way or another. This is a thing that we do in this country culturally,

a right-left thing. You see it a lot with global warming. When you have a conversation with people, they say that global warming's, it's a natural process, natural cycle, the earth goes through it. And then you actually talk to them about how much research they've really done on it. It's almost none. They fall into these ideological groups. And those pull yourself up by your bootstraps,

right wing, there's this sort of conservative way of thinking that let the market decide. And this is that conversation. I don't think that's an honest conversation if you're dealing with monopolies in regards to Internet access, which I think a lot of, and I am and you are, a lot of people are. It's a giant part of living in America. Yeah, and that tribalism that you're describing right now, it's really deteriorating the quality of our dialogue in Washington. We've got to find a way to fix it because we're not going to move ahead without actually having some back and forth on these things. But this is like the one issue where I'm like, it actually brings people together. 83% of people support it. Yeah. It's undeniable. But that's what's scary about this country now is that even when so many of us agree about something, when one very powerful group,

a lobby, the broadband companies get behind somebody with some control, they can push the needle. You know, it's funny if my email inbox, which was an explosive thing leading up to this vote, was full of people writing and telling me their stories. But a whole bunch of them were like, you know, I'm a registered Republican, but I want you to know, or I supported the president, but I believe net neutrality is really important. It was striking to me, like once you get out of the talking head types, what she found is that there was really broad based support for net neutrality.

Well, what's stunning about this administration is how Trump's administration is just going ham for business. They are going ham for offshore drilling. They're going ham for diminishing state parks and starting to tap into resources, whether it's mining or fracking. It's like he knows the world's going to end in 25 years or something. He's like, just go. Just take it all. Well, here's the thing. He doesn't have 25 years.

Yeah. And so the world is going to end in 25 years. I mean, if you're a 72-year-old guy, how much time do you have left? If you have 25 years, those last 25 years, you're barely there. Yeah. It's insane. There's nothing going to be left after this administration. Well, it's real weird.

Yeah. Because it lets you know. Like, people used to think, well, the president doesn't have much power. Look at what's happening. There's a giant shift in environmental policies, environmental protection agencies have been gutted. That's the scary stuff. The scary stuff is how much emphasis is placed on business and how little on the world in which we live.

I mean, we have to balance that out. It's also how we got to focus on the future right now. It is not a given that we're going to succeed in everything if we don't start planning. And when I think about the world my kids are going to inherit, it's going to be digital. There are going to be environmental consequences. Why don't we start doing something about that right now? There's not a lot of urgency. It's one of the weirdest parts of being a person is people look so short term and they

always feel like someone's going to fix it. Yeah. You know? I mean, isn't that the attitude? Someone's going to fix it. But look at right now. The economy's booming. Joblessness is at an all-time low.

And they'll just start throwing all the good stuff your way. But yeah, when you just start raping the environment and the businesses go, hey, there's a lot of profit to be made here. Let's get going. Let's start hiring some people. Yeah, it's like all the money goes to the fence. Department of Education has got it. Department of Energy has got it.

Department of Environments. All these things are gutted. Everything that has to do with our even present and future, it's gutted. Department of Energy is gutted. Department of Environments. All these things are gutted. Everything that has to do with our even present and future, it's gutted. The only thing that's going is business and defense. And what's the argument for that? The argument for that is that as business booms, as the economy booms, there'll be trickle down and there'll be more opportunities for businesses to clean up the environment and profit off of it. Yeah, but it's never worked. Commissioner, trickle-down economics has never worked in the history of history.

I have my doubts about it. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard pro and con for it. I think at the very least the Trump administration, and I'm trying to look at it through rose-colored glasses, is a fascinating experiment in so many different ways. But it's also, I think, made us all more conscious of our role as citizens. Yes.

People have to talk back to Washington. They have to speak up. We need our representatives to hear what people think. And I think we got a little comfortable there. Believing the system just runs by itself. But it does better when people participate. And I think that there's a lot more demanded of us now as citizens. No matter where you fall on the political spectrum, I think it woke us all up to that fact.

Besides just calling state reps, senators, what else can people do? Participate in letter writing campaigns. Get things in your editorial page. I don't mean the big papers. I wrote something for the LA Times about this a while ago. But I mean in your local papers. Tell them why it's important. Tell them how you built a business using online activities and how maybe going forward that's going to be a little harder. I think making efforts to make sure that people understand this at a local level is really powerful. Well, it's very disturbing to people that 320 million people can be affected by five people yeah it's crazy right it's insane five unelected bureaucrats because look that's who we are have this extraordinary power over what we can watch see hear and learn i think that um there's something in that that strikes me as not right.

And the idea that in the end, just three of them voted to roll back this openness. So three people changed it for 320 million people. That's crazy. That doesn't seem like the end. Three people, by the way, who were not voted in. So they're unelected, which is bananas. I mean, there's no question about it. That's a terrible idea.

Like if you gave people the option, you said, hey, do you think that five people should be able to decide whether or not 320 million plus, plus the rest of the world, really? Yeah. Because if your podcast gets cut off, you're not going to be able to reach Canada either. Do you think that they should be able to stop access to information? I mean, three people defied 83% of the American public. It's insane. And that's the type of shit that makes me feel trapped in this country sometimes because we didn't elect these people.

Right. You know? Yeah. I think you got to make a choice, which is you've got to choose to be optimistic because it's the only force multiplier we have, which is you're going to decide that if something's not right, you're going to call. You're going to write letters. You're going to write editorials. You're going to build campaigns around things because in the end, that's the only way to change things. And if all of us felt a little of that spirit, gosh, today, if not every day, I think that that would make extraordinary difference. And we're already

seeing its impact in Washington. There are more people showing up in the capital city for votes, for marches. There are more people reaching out to their members of Congress than ever before. And I just think we're going to have to sustain that energy if we want to create some real change. I think it's about more people who have an opinion, values that are trustworthy in the community running. I think more people need to run because for a while, I've actually looked at government as something like I maybe could never be part of. This is a totally different thing. I research the candidates and I go vote and that's, that's my interaction with it. But I'm starting to realize that even if you don't want to run, or even if you want to run, it's a possibility. And, and you, number one, you can like encourage

your other friends to go run and you can look at who is trying to start campaigns. Like I'm 35 now and there are friends from law school that they're like, hey, I'm thinking about running, you know, like I want to throw a fundraiser. Who should I speak to? And then, you know, there's a guy that I played basketball with in a basketball league. He's like, I'm going to try to run for governor of California. I'm like, good luck. But like, I'm going to follow what you're doing. And I think more people need to run. But if you're not running, hold the people that are running responsible. Ask difficult questions like be a part of the kind of vetting of that candidate and be hands-on in the process of that person's candidacy are you running for president with oprah

no no that's what i'm hearing here no i'm not running but my thing is is that you know i think we all need to have a stake in the cats that are running and ask the questions that need to be asked because I've been one of the people that just shows up maybe two weeks before the election, two weeks before the deadline of the absentee ballot. And I go research for two weeks and I go check out all the pros and cons of each candidate. And after two weeks, I decide. But I should be involved more than that as citizens. Well, you can announce your congressional run right here right now. I'm too busy. I'm too busy.

Isn't that the problem, though? The people that would want to run for president or whatever, elected official, oftentimes are too busy. I mean, I think if you ran, I mean, you could really clean up. You could really do it. I'm not running. You've got a bigger platform than I do. I'm not interested.

It's important, though. You could really clean up. You could really do it. I'm not running. You got a bigger platform than I do. I'm not interested. I just, I don't. It's important though. You know, find a way to participate in public life and give back. And whether you run or support someone or encourage your friends, and they don't have to be the person who was the student council president in high school. Just get some people out there. My thing with candidates, like, right. So, Joe, we've had disagreements on the show.

We disagree about certain things. What do we disagree about? Well, it was the minimum universal... Oh, you changed my mind. Yeah. By the way, I changed... There was a knee-jerk reaction to you when we talked about this. I was talking about universal basic income. Okay, and you told me net neutrality

was sort of nerdy. Yeah, that's pretty nerdy. If you were talking about UBI, I think you cleared out. I nerd out on this show. I automatically knee jerk goes, ah, don't do that. It's bad for human nature. You give people money, they get lazy. But then I thought about it. I said, no, you're just giving them food and shelter.

You give people food and shelter, you're still leaving open ambition, and you're also freeing them up for the possibility of perhaps exploring things that they would really truly truly love to do. And I think when we start dealing with automated vehicles, automated trucks, and trucking and shipping and driving is a giant business. It's a huge part of what people have. There's some extraordinary percentage of men who drive for a living. And if you eliminate that, you're going to have a lot of people out of work. We have automation that's coming to factories and all these different places.

It's going to eliminate the need for humans, cut out all the human error. Well, what are we going to do with all those people? And what are we going to do with all those jobs? And how do you give these people this newfound possibility, this avenue for exploring new potential career paths. Well, the best way is have their money taken care of in terms of like food and shelter. Give them the freedom to explore ideas. Yeah, because it's a benefit a lot of people have and then they do great work and you take that stress off their plate. But I talked about the conversation because we had a good discussion about it.

And then it went on for weeks on Twitter. We kept talking. And then we both kind of came around on things. And I was like, yo, this is great. And when I think about candidates, I think about I would vote for somebody who they're going to stick to their guns and they're going to do what they said they would

and their values aren't going to change once they go to DC. That's all you can ask for from a person. Be honest about who you are and be who you are when you go to DC. Well, I'm looking at the future of civilization, right? Like where are we now? And this insane change that we've experienced over the last 20 years because of the internet, what is it going to be like in 20 years from now? And what happens to the average person, the average human being? We have this idea that you're supposed to show up 9 to 5 for a job, and that's what you do, and then you work until you're retired. But that's all something that people invented.

I mean, all of this is a new thing in terms of human history. This is not the only way human beings can live. history. This is not the only way human beings can live. And the idea that this is the only way to use our tax money or resources is the way we're doing it currently, that doesn't seem to be that logical. And I would like people to have more opportunity to innovate and create and more freedom where they don't feel shackled down. Like there's a lot of people out there that just feel shackled down by just the need to feed themselves and survive yeah and also just even school like i started reading and listening to these podcasts about sleep right and it's a it's a scientific thing some people are not morning people she's laughing at you yeah but like that's like reading or listening to podcasts

about sleep yeah well you could get information anyway now insomnia listening to podcasts about sleep. Yeah, well, you could get information anyway now. I have this image of you with insomnia listening to podcasts about sleep. No, but I listened to this dude and he was talking about like, it's a scientific thing. Some people are on a different body rhythm. They just don't do well in the morning.

And he looked at schools and the school schedule. And the school schedule is based on mom and dads. They have a nine to five based on traffic. And let's try to get these kids into school for high school the earliest, then middle school later, then elementary school after that. And some people, because they're morning people,

they're just at such a disadvantage. And high school, college, this is like kind of an educational industrial complex. If you don't fit in, if you're not cookie cutter in the way your body and your mind works, you're not gonna be successful. And speaking to what Joe's talking about is, I think I genuinely believe, like even some of the silliest people I've met, everybody has some sort of genius. We're just not

like fostering the unearthing of that. And like, look, there's some hilarious stuff that happens at Bauhaus at the restaurant. But I tell myself every time, I'm like, all right, this guy totally messed up making this bao. This guy totally messed up butchering this chicken. But find a place where he can succeed. Put him in a position to win. That's a lot of responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility. It doesn't always work out, but usually it does.

Usually you find out, you know what? That guy's really good at making the sauce. know like put them on the sauce like you have to find a place for people to be successful but our society have to find their own fine yeah the problem is if you do have a nine-to-five job and you're trying to feed yourself and get along you're gonna have less chances to innovate you're gonna left left chances to take risky decisions and just try things out. That is why internet openness is so important

though. Yes. Because this was a platform and a space for you to go experiment, build community, find communities, figure out what your genius might involve, which may not be what you're doing at work every day. And I think the idea that Washington

is mucking around with that is just crazy. Well, I definitely don't think they like the fact that people have this ability. I definitely think if you could, if the people who created the internet knew what they were doing when they released this on the general public, they probably wouldn't have like to give people the kind of access to information and the ability to change things, what we've seen through Arab Spring, we've seen through so many different cultures that are using this to change the way they interact with each other. You know, it was interesting during our net neutrality proceeding, Tim Berners-Lee, who invented the web, and Vint Cerf, who invented the internet,

along with some real icons from early days like Mitchell Baker from Mozilla, all wrote us and said, do not change these rules. And it seems like when you've got that incredible genius of these people who created this connected world for you and told you that this agency in Washington is going to really mess around with it, it strikes me that we should have listened. Well, we definitely should have listened. But we also shouldn't have this place where five people get to make this decision. It's insane.

Yeah. Going to what you just said, Joe, it's like even like, let's say my role, just to explain for you, my role as the owner or manager at the restaurant, it's not necessarily always my job to create a role for somebody and find a way for them to be successful in my restaurant. I'm hiring a cook. I'm hiring a manager. Like this is the job description. Hopefully if you're coming for this job, you can do this. Right. And I think what you said really opened something in my mind, which is the government should not be always prescriptive about like, all right, we're all

going to go to school at 7 o'clock. You're going to study hard and you're going to get these grades and you're going to go to college. That's not a path to success for everybody. But what it should do is enable people to be creative and find out what works for them. We need to give people the freedom to contribute to society. Well, I think we're trying to manage the masses without looking at the needs and the ideas of the individual. And everybody has their own likes and dislikes and creative kinks and things that, I mean,

how many people could have lived a life of misery, but got lucky somewhere along the line and found something that they love and pursued that. And I think that there's not a whole lot of guidance in that regard. But what there is on the Internet is examples of other people who've done this. And you can connect with those people. And there's so many communities when it comes to – I'm weird about stuff. I like knife making. I don't make knives.

That feels kind of ominous. No, no, no, no, no. The craft of it. I love the idea of forging things. I just think – I find that fascinating. And I follow like dozens of these guys on Instagram that make knives and hatchets and metal work and tools and furniture and shit. I'm not making furniture.

I have no desire to make furniture. I'm not even thinking about it. But I like watching this. And I like watching these people communicate with each other and explain the methods and the techniques they use. And this is a you know, an avenue where a young kid could see something like that and go, I want to make furniture. Like that seems like a cool thing.

Like look at this amazing desk. How accessible that is to you now. Like when you were growing up, you wanted to do that? You were going to go to some library and go to that card catalog. You probably wouldn't be exposed to it. And look things up. You would never see the video content, the number of people doing that. I mean, at all.

It so casually and quickly legitimizes it for you as something to think about, do, or pursue. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I had a knife made out of meteor. It's made out of meteor. How hard is meteor? It's steel.

It's metal. It's iron. Oh, wow. They make it with the iron that came made out of meteor. How hard is meteor? It's steel. It's metal. It's iron. Oh, wow. So they make it with the iron that came out of a meteor. Mousy Fire Arts made it for me. How did you cop meteor? I contacted him. I contacted him.

Well, I knew there's a guy named Steve Kramer that makes them, and he made one for Anthony Bourdain. Yeah. And I went, what? I want one of those. I'm like, I want one of those. He's got a fucking meteor knife. How do I get a meteor knife? So my kitchen knife is made from a meteor.

Damn. Yeah, that's Cleopatra's knife. That's really one-upping the rest of us. It's a two-ton commons knife. I really got to step my knife game up because I still just use the cleaver, man. I'm so ancient Chinese with my chopping. It's just a cleaver.

Well, there's nothing wrong with a cleaver. It just looks cool because I know it came from a meteor. I could expand the arsenal, add a meteor chef's knife to it. Do you tell everyone it came from a meteor when they come into your kitchen? No. So you just sort of impress them a little? No, I've only showed it to a couple people. I just got it recently.

But I think that this new world of the internet in terms of like the ability to explore these communities and like you said, video. Like see the video of someone – like this clock. This – Russell built – made this clock for us, that grandfather clock. I mean that dude made that all out of metal. He welded it all, put it all together. I mean this kind of stuff to me is so fascinating. And I don't just like it because I'm interested in the craft of it all. I like it because I see it as an opportunity for people to get out of the grind.

Yeah. Like you can make things. If you can make things and sell things, if you have an internet connection and you have an Instagram account, which is free. And you have an iPhone. You take your phone. You film something. Next thing you know, you're selling things. I mean, it's an incredible time for like opportunity to escape. Yeah.

The biggest lie people fall for is that they're bad at something or they're not valuable. It's like you may be bad in this structural definition of a human being that goes to school and gets a nine to five job. Maybe I was terrible. I was terrible at it. Yeah. I got fired from a Boston market. I got fired from a waterworks. Like I couldn't work anywhere.

I got fired as a landscaper. Yeah. Fucked up people's lawns. I couldn't do anything. But then it's like when you become in control of your own shit and you go do what you're passionate about. It's like, well, then I became successful. And I try to tell people all the time, like, if this doesn't work for you, the straight and narrow doesn't work for you, like, think of a way. Think about what you think your strengths are and play to that. Don't let anyone tell you you're a failure, you're unsuccessful because you don't fit the stereotype.

You know, I think it's really important, though though for successful people like yourself to tell their failure stories. We don't do that enough. I lost a restaurant because I sold all you can drink for loco. I went out in flames. All you can drink for loco sounds like a liability. You're good at telling failure stories. But I think that that's true generally.

I feel like I wish I could ask every member of Congress to tell a failure story. They would never do that. Those people are trying to pretend there's something different. What's your failure story? It's so important. Well, I was a terrible law student.

Okay. Anything more explosive? Like did you ever sell Four Loko at a lemonade stand? I can tell you I absolutely never did that and probably never will. Any other failures? Yeah, I got some parenting failures that I'm going to save my children from announcing in public. Good call. Good call.

Yeah, I feel like it's important for people to relate, right? They have to be able to say, oh, Eddie wasn't always a successful guy. Like he was a 19-year-old old kid once too, that was also struggling. That's very important. It's very, it's, I think it's one of the most important things that people can understand that failure is an opportunity to learn. And that horrible feeling of failure is really your friend. Cause that horrible feeling motivates you to change. I mean, I fail all the time. I played basketball yesterday. We had a double header. I was cooking on a grill. I was making lamb skewers for four hours in the morning, went straight from the kitchen to this basketball game in San Gabriel Valley, playing

with, it's like an Asian basketball league. So I'm actually like kind of tall, like I'm like a small forward. And there's like little younger dudes at 25 running around me. I did not, I played well the first game. I was washed the second game. And these kids, probably like 23, 24 years old, running past me, elbowing me. And I got so mad and I acted out. I started like yelling at them. I started like beefing. And I got home and I told my fiance about it.

And she's like, yo, why are you beefing with these kids? They're 25. Like, you're 25. Like, like you're old. Of course they're going to run by you. You playing a doubleheader and you came out of the kitchen. And it was funny. Cause I was like, not willing to let it go. But then I was like, I got to work on myself. Like every single day, like I fail at something. And I failed at like being like the elder Statesman in the basketball league, being composed, being composed. I lost my composure. I started making fun of these kids for no reason. And I was like, that's not me.

You know, like basketball sometimes brings out the worst in me. But I was like, all right, today I'm going to be a better person. I'm going to go back to that league next week. I'm going to be like a nice dude. And if some kid washes me and wets me in the face, it's fine. Well, sometimes you just need to experience it so that you know, okay, I just have to be more composed when that comes up. And when you didn't expect to experience it and then someone hits you with that elbow, you're like, what?

Fuck you, man. And the next thing you know, it's intense. Boxing, basketball, it's the most, like sports is the most humbling thing for me. Of course. I'm not built for it. Like I'm built to fail at sports. But you try anyway. I try because it's the thing I'm the worst at.

So I always want to go to sports. Well, it's great for the mind. The thing about sports is you're forcing your body to do things that are uncomfortable. And in doing that, you're not just exercising your body. You're also exercising your mind. And that's one of the things that I always try to relay to people that are negative about physical exercise and exertion because they think that it's some sort of a frivolous venture that's just vanity. You just want to look good or use your body. There's a mental aspect to having the ability to push through discomfort that is extremely valuable.

And if you don't have that switch where you can be comfortable being uncomfortable because you've done it a million times, you're going to be pan you're gonna be panicky you're gonna be weirded out by it and that is a mental weakness yeah so and that ability to push through discomfort helps you not just in physical exercise and exertion but it also helps you in work like if you have to push through certain work things instead of getting up and getting another cough of coffee figure out what the fuck you're doing figure out what's this problem you're working on concentrate, like focus get after it, be comfortable

being uncomfortable. I don't believe in trickle down economics but I believe in trickle down mental strength you know what I mean? I start in the gym every morning and like whatever happens in the gym it humbles me it gives me like you know some kind of like energy and i i bring that throughout the day like what got you hooked in jujitsu well

i've done martial arts since i was a little kid but i think there's something that is inescapable in my life at least and that is that there is no disconnect between the mind and the body that they're all one thing and that you can work them individually, but not really. Because when you are working your body, you need the mind to do that. The intensity of my workouts is one of the most important aspects of it. And that's fueled 100% by my mind. Yeah.

It's not by my body. And Plato said that since fifth century, he always wrote about like how training the body is just as important as training like the rest of your mind. Especially martial arts. I mean it's just – it's everything because you're high-level problem-solving with bad physical consequences. You're trying to avoid injury and humiliation and all these various things that are a part of martial arts. In the meantime, you're trying to maintain composure under pressure and you're tired and you have to understand the ability to push and push through discomfort and push through exhaustion. But it also fuels the mind. It's very important.

Yeah. Fighting that three-round fight, I was like my first three-round fight, I got so scared. I was shaking the whole time, but I just told myself, dude, there's no backing out. You're in the ring. You have to go forward. Keep going forward. And and like just out of fear I'm a pressure fighter do you know what I mean like just out of fear like I have to be a pressure fighter because I don't think in my first fight I knew I did not have like the calm in me to counter or or do what like the game plan was I was like I just have to pressure like I have to move these hands and move these feet but then I got through it I got lumped up a few times i won the fight but i was like whoa

i feel like i could do anything now and so now i keep sparring and i keep fighting because i if i can be composed in the ring with someone trying to kill me then like i i can be composed on a podcast or in a meeting or like in some negotiation it's it's the best martial arts is a vehicle for developing your human potential. And that those things are all connected. And it's a critical lesson for young people. And if you can push through hard workouts, you can push through whatever career path you're trying to break into.

It teaches me respect too because it's like you can get bodied anytime. You can get dropped at any time. Like, be grateful for when you have both arms and legs and you're standing on your two feet because you could be dropped at any second. So, but, I mean, do you do physical activity, sports? Look at her. She's jacked. Yeah, I know. She's been waiting to jump in this conversation.

Well, I grew up in New England in cold country. Where? In Connecticut. Oh, we're in Connecticut. Outside of Hartford. Okay. You're one of those people. Is there like a Westport?

I think my girl is from Westport. Yeah, that's closer to New York City. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's from Westport. So I grew up skiing all the time. And I still love skiing. I need the thrill of flying off of something that makes me uncomfortable in order to relax in a perverse way. So when I have vacations, that's what I do. I take my kids who right now live in D.C. with me, and it's pretty flat there.

So you've got to go take them to see some mountains, and you've got to go make sure that they go down something that's a little bit too steep every single time. Because I think you build some resilience when you get down something like that and you turn around and say, well, I did that. I can do some other things. Yeah, I think there's some resilience in living in Connecticut too. The cold. It's weird.

And plus it's not really a state. Connecticut's like a highway between New York and Boston. No, I would disagree. Connecticut, yeah. it's not really a state. Connecticut's like a highway between New York and Boston. No, I would disagree. Connecticut, yeah. It's not really a state. Connecticut, Rhode Island. It's like the bridge states. You know, you California people, if you're not-

I grew up in Boston. Oh, I married someone who grew up in Boston. Sorry. You Boston people. Talk about Boston, the hub, the Athens in America. Dude, I had no ideas. I never would have thought you were from Boston. Well, I was born in New Jersey, but I grew up in Boston.

You don't have a New England accent. Got rid of it. Hurt myself on TV when I was 19. I was like, fuck that accent. You got rid of it. Yeah, I was so embarrassed. You worked on it. Yeah, I was embarrassed.

I was embarrassed listening to my own accent. I now go home and I hear people with a New England accent and it feels sweet and comforting. It's great when people are drunk. When everybody's drunk, it seems like it's normal. Come on. Can you do a little bit of one right now? Yeah. Pocky car.

I can do it. See, I thought you, like listening to you talk, I thought you were from the South for a second. No. No? Yeah, because you don't have a New England accent. No. No.

No, but I've been living in Washington for a little while. Plus she's a politician. That's true. You got but I've been living in Washington for a little while. Plus she's a politician. You gotta get rid of that. Gotta shake it off. Yeah, you have the ill politician, like the metered talking. Yeah.

The metered talking. Yeah, it's like, it's on like a metronome. No. She's smooth. You Americans. It's good. It's not bad.

It's good. It's a good thing. Do you ever do this? Do you ever do this thing with your hands like Clinton used to do? No, I don't think that. The thing where you

hold your thumb like that and do this thing? What we need to do in this country. I never understood the thumb thing. Because people would always tell me when I do voiceover, like, slow down, slow down. And, like, I can't slow down. Like, my voice totally changes if I slow down. I just got to come, like, shot out of a cannon. That is true.

If you go back to Washington, you decide with your congressional campaign, it's all going to happen. You are going to slow down when you speak. Yeah, like you can hear your periods and commas. I just like run through sentences. You know what? With Trump as president, I think all bets are off. I think you do whatever you want now. I don't think there's any rules.

I don't think you can call other countries shitholes. You can get crazy. Joe, I'm telling you, I really think you should run. I'm not running. You can bring other countries shitholes. You can get crazy. Joe, I'm telling you, I really think you should run. I'm not running. Because you can bring mad people together. What does that mean? You bring mad people together and also, like, I think, number one, like, I think you're one of the few dudes who can get the, like, really wild white people to, like, think about

things and, like, consider them. Be like, have some perspective and empathy. Wild white people. Yeah. Like the wildlings. beyond the internet wall yeah i i really believe in joe as the guy that's like all right the crazies trust him and then like he he he can get them to think about things from a different perspective i don't know if that's good no it's a good thing dude like you appeal to you appeal to like all people but like like i meet a lot of people

they run up on me like yo you're on jre you're pretty left you're a little you're a little crazy but i enjoy talking to you i'm like yo thank you man like i i mean i come on the show so i can speak to like a different audience than just like you know hip-hop asian dudes in my dms dudes that like migos and soy sauce like you, you know, I had a great show. How big is that community? It's not that big. Well, that's a... We're very niche.

There's a weird thing about the listeners of this podcast is they don't, they're not left or right. No. There's like a weird mixture of people. But that's good. That's, we need so much more of that in this country right now. I mean, we're not gonna do things

if we don't start listening to each other. Like, i don't usually identify as left as people call me that but it's like your content on the show galvanizes cats from like all around the world well i i i don't identify as left either but i do when it comes to so many issues when it comes to gay rights when it comes to civil rights when it comes to just across the board, things that you would automatically consider liberal, but also the freedom to express yourself. Like that's, that to me is the marketplace of free ideas is one of the most important aspects of developing a civilization. It's one of the most important ways that we understand about each other.

And you got to have an open mind. It's like I was saying, like you bring up that universal basic income. And I was like, get the fuck out of here with that. And then I thought about it afterwards. And I was like, maybe there's some, maybe I always like to explore my reactions to things. And if I have a reaction to something and I automatically dismiss it, I go, okay, was that valid? reaction to something and I automatically dismiss it, I go, okay, was that valid? Or did I just dismiss it because it's easier than to have a nuanced perspective that's formed over time and a lot of critical thinking?

And so I stopped and thought about it all. And I think at the very least, it's something that merits consideration and maybe could be some sort of a project. Let's see. Let's see if that works. Yeah. We have some countries doing experiments with that right now, though they're different than us culturally,

and I think culturally is part of it. That is a problem. Well, America is just so based on competition. Competition is so powerful over here, and I think that's good, and I also think that's bad because ultimately it's like if you could grab Trump and and and get him on mushrooms and let it explain just somehow or another let the universe explain to him this is a temporary experience you're trying to gather up all this money and gather up all

these resources and gather up all this influence when this this all fleeting. It's sand that slips between your fingers. There's no way you can grasp it for real. The real experience is the shared moments that we have with each other. And the more we can enhance that for the people around us, the more you can use your power to enhance people's perspective, change people's way of interfacing with this world that we live in, and recognize that we're all just living together. We're all just a part of this community. This competition thing, most of the competition is with yourself. Most of it.

The vast majority of it. And those other people that you're competing with, you should cherish them because they're fuel. All those people, instead of looking at them as the enemy, those people are your friends. Your most bitter rivals are the greatest motivators you're ever going to experience. Those are the people that are going to push you. But don't be toxic about it. You can be peaceful about it. Yeah, Joe, I love competition because, number one, it's amazing to watch.

Like, you know, Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, I think greatest fighter like the last 20 years. Amazing boxing match. Lived for that boxing match. Lomachenko, Rigondeaux, that's not competition. You know, like that was— Well, that's an experience though. That's an experience. Just total, just snatching of a soul.

Well, he's a different animal. Lomachenko's a different thing. Yeah, the Matrix is crazy. Do you know the story about his dad? What his dad made him do? No. Made him stop boxing and do Ukrainian dance for four years. That's why he's got that ridiculous footwork.

Footwork, wow. Yeah, because his footwork is everything. And I know he does the number association too, which is crazy. But what I was saying about competition is like, you know, politicians are always, we need competition, we need competition. But who is competing with service providers? There is no competition. It's just beating up on a bum. It's like we all live to watch great competition, but you have to foster competitors.

You need actual competitors for there to be competition. Imagine if what we're experiencing with internet was also with food. Imagine if like only a certain people could bring you your food. Yeah. You know, like, oh, you live in Charleston? Yeah, you got to get your food from Mike. Yeah, it's basically like growing up eating food in Orlando. There's like one in a category. Well, food for your mind. Yeah. Food for your mind is real. I mean, the fuel that

you get, the information that you get from the internet, that is fuel for your mind. And whether you get it in the form of actual food or whether you get it in the form of information, these are both very critical things that you need a wide variety of different sources for. But you're bringing up a good point. Even just let's say food delivery, right? It started off you would call the restaurants and it was difficult. You had to save the menu from every restaurant. Then Seamless comes around and they're like, all right, we're putting all the menus on here and we're just helping facilitate you get things from the restaurant.

But it wasn't like for restaurants, we didn't necessarily like Seamless because then you had to have your own delivery workforce. They took a big cut of what you were making. And a lot of restaurants, they didn't even break even using Seamless. So then like places like Caviar came around and Postmates came around and they supply the service, the delivery people, the consumer pays more for the delivery and the restaurant makes their money. And it's like, whoa, now that actually created competition between delivery services. Now you have an evolution and now, you know, everybody gets what they want. You get better service. So much of that all happened over the internet. Yes. It was all in the internet.

Because we had those little folded menus stuck in the kitchen drawer, right? Right. Right, yeah. That's how we used to do it. Yeah. And if you lived in New York, you'd get home and there's just like 20 sushi menus under your door. No. It was like Empire Setsua. Every three days, putting something under my door.

Yeah. A lot of slip and fall in your own apartment cases from those fucking menus, man. Look mean, look at what's happened through the internet in terms of people not drinking and driving because of Uber. That's changed the way people get around. If I went to high school with Uber, bro, I would have been good.

When we were in front of the comedy store, Lyft is blocking the goddamn driveway to the comedy store nine out of ten times when you're allowed to leave. There's a car pulled up there.

Which is, look, it's an inconvenience, but man, it's so nice to see drunk people just getting driven around. Yeah, they need to be. They need to be driven around. It's interesting. We don't talk a lot about the safety element of that, but it's huge. It's amazing. And also young people are not buying cars like they used to.

It used to be that getting a car entailed your freedom. Not anymore. And now it's all like device-centered. And where you go and what you do is virtual. Especially as a kid. It's not the physical car anymore. You were segregated because I went to a school where people were bussed in from different parts. You could be friends with someone at school, but if they don't have a car or they live 45 minutes, you can't be friends. But now you can all meet each other up.

They may not be able to rent a car or have a car, but they can take an Uber and meet you up. Yeah, and that really is another aspect of the internet that a lot of times we don't take into consideration is cellular, mobile, apps. Apps are the internet. I mean it is everything through the internet, but it's in this little device that you keep in your pocket. And Twitter and Facebook and instagram and all these different we live in a mobile first world like anyone who's building a website now it should be built for that device yeah because that's the first place most people um experience that online activity and the only concern that i have about that though is that you know ultimately we want people to

not just be digital consumers but to be digital creators. Some people. Well, I think more of us. Stay offline. No, I think more of us should be. I don't think the only people building things should be a bunch of guys in hoodies in their 20s, I think. Oh, you mean that. No, I agree with that.

The digital world should look as diverse as all of us. Yeah, sure. And I hope on a going forward basis, we're going to fix this internet situation with net neutrality. And we're also going to diversify the universe of people who build things for our online world. Well, we really see that in the podcast world. The podcast world is extremely diverse. There's so many different – I mean, whatever you're into, you can find a category and a whole shitload of people that are making podcasts about it. I mean, it's really fascinating.

You can listen to five podcasts on sleeping. You probably can, right? When you have insomnia. I mean, there's a ton on food, right? Yeah. Food. Food is actually, you know, when I was working on this net neutrality show, I worked with the Today Show. And they wanted to find someone who built a business online.

And they spent time with this woman. I think it was Laura's Kitchen. And she had basically started just putting videos on YouTube, showing herself and how she was cooking. And then that morphed over time into a book and a big empire, and she built something from it. And it's amazing if you look at how much cooking has evolved from just hobby online to actual business. It's extraordinary. Yeah, it's undeniable. Like, I mean, for younger people listening, they're, they're probably just like, guys, we know like the internet, like everything, it's, it's undoubted, everything happens on the internet. And so for it to become this thing

that's not regulated is insane. It's like getting our roads taken away. You don't want regulation. What you want is just a little bit of oversight to make sure that it's fair. Yes, I think that's a good way to put it. That's the way to put it. Because I think when we break into regulation or deregulation, we lose the point. The point is you just want a little oversight to make sure it's fair and open to all. Yeah, equal playing ground and that everybody's allowed to come to this thing.

And recognize it as the important resource that it is. The ability to distribute information is critical to changing the culture. The way we interface with each other, the way we talk, the experiences that we share, the way we have access to all these new ideas and information,

it's just shifting things at this radical rate. Like warp speed. Warp speed. Warp speed. It's just shifting things at this radical rate. Like warp speed. Warp speed. Warp speed. It's the weirdest time ever. And so for this to be a monkey wrench thrown into the gears of this by five people and three of them choose three.

Present company accepted. Yes. It's just hard to imagine that that's going to stick. But with this administration, it's not stunning because it seems like net neutrality being dissolved favors these big businesses that would like to maximize their profits. In many ways, net neutrality is the ultimate populist issue, right? Yes. Because it empowers all of us online. Yeah.

So write letters, make calls, be annoying annoying you have to be annoying run run run for president make a ruckus eddie and oprah 2020 eddie and oprah eddie joe i'm telling you eddie joe eddie joe's a good ticket bro i'm not doing it but good luck good luck you and oprah i think you're gonna be living your best life what's that mean what does that mean that's that's oprahism oh my bad boy oprah is that part of the secret you're gonna have to work with your running mate on that so um this this situation that we're in right now do, are you confident that there's real potential for it to be reversed? I am optimistic that the American public are awoke and they're paying attention now and they're making a ruckus.

I mean, we had millions of people write us at the FCC. When I got appointed to the FCC, I didn't think millions of people knew what the FCC was. I think that's extraordinary and I'm not ready to give up. I got appointed to the FCC? I didn't think millions of people knew what the FCC was. I think that's extraordinary. And I'm not ready to give up. Well, the last time the FCC was in the mainstream news is when you guys were fining Howard Stern. That predates my time there. Of course, it does. That was also during the George Bush administration. How'd you get to the FCC? So before I was appointed, I served as counsel to the Senate Commerce Committee.

And I worked there for Senator Rockefeller for a long time and for Senator Inouye before that. And so I got like a front row seat at a whole bunch of digital issues with how we deal with our wireless spectrum, how we change our television technology. So, you know, a real kind of nerdy Washington thing, but also a new way to see how everything is changing in our economy because of digitization. What's your thoughts on cryptocurrencies? You know, so I have no special authority on this, except that a microphone's in front of me.

That being said. That's my whole life. Yeah. I'm less interested in cryptocurrencies than I am in blockchain, which is the ledger that they use to record exchanges in cryptocurrency. It's anonymous and it can be used by anyone. It's extremely low cost. And I think there are open questions about how you can make government and a lot of business services more efficient using blockchain that I think are really interesting and have yet to be explored. That's what I'm excited about. Like what's one way a business could use blockchain?

have yet to be explored. That's what I'm excited about. Like what's one way a business could use blockchain? I'll just make this up. Say there's some kind of a, you export fruit. Someone puts a bag of that fruit on the table and they say, well, we know that there are certain fields that fruit comes from, you know, there might be a disease in it. How can you figure out how that fruit got here from the field? You know, you can go back through your supply chain and call everyone, get them to tell you how long it sat over here and who held it and put it in the truck. The question is, if you can come up with a digital way where everyone as a collective just contributes to that along the way, can that be low cost, more efficient and more effective? I think it will change supply chain economics in a really big way.

And we don't fully understand the consequences for our economy yet, but I think it's coming. Oh, that makes sense. Kind of like a Wikipedia for each thing. Yeah, I did it with food for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. That makes a lot of sense. It does.

Yeah. Look, here's high-level nerd nerd but our airwaves around us right our wireless airwaves that power all of our phones we have to divide them up you don't see it but it's like they're zoned so that your phone works the television works all of these things you know but we also have a whole bunch of airwaves that are only used sometimes but what if we could create like secondary and tertiary rights to use them so that our phones were more powerful? And what if the best way to do that was to use something like blockchain? I mean, there's so many ways I think the recording ledger for cryptocurrencies

could make our economy more efficient and more powerful. And so that's what I'm interested in. And that's probably because I don't own any Bitcoin. I know people also in journalism have been talking about keeping articles on blockchain. So they like Internet articles don't go anywhere, you know, because people can just erase a website like a website goes out of business. Then all the articles on that website are gone. So some people are putting websites on blockchain. Figuring out how we maintain our history in this digital world is actually, it's a real thing. Yeah. Yeah.

We haven't thought about that. It's like cultural preservation. Right. If we have some sort of a solar flare and, you know, it kills the grid and we lose hard drives and, I mean, that's real. That actually could be a real thing. Yeah. And blockchain is kind of an answer for keeping information. My hope is that we're going to eventually shift to voting online.

Doesn't Oregon do that? Do they? I think the state of Oregon has done some experiments with that. We should study that. We should make voting easier. Yes. That's what it comes down to. And make it more convenient for people.

But then the thought is, well, if they're so stupid and lazy they can't make their way to a voting booth, do we really want their opinion to be expressed? Oh, no. I think the busiest people need voting on the internet. You're a politician. When we talk about politics, just let us non-politicians talk mad shit. But you have a job. You have a job. You have a job. You've got kids.

You're trying to work there from 9. And then you find out your polling place is open from 9 to 5. Right. That's a good point. That's insulting. I mean, I know that when I voted in the election, the last election, the presidential election, I think you can guess, the last election in Washington, I had to wait 35 minutes before I got in, in the middle of my day.

That's a commitment. It's a commitment I'm willing to make. It's a commitment I'm privileged enough to take that time and make it. We've got to make it easier for people. I'm absolutely joking around, and I really do think that we should make it much easier to vote. And I think you should be registered to vote the same way you're registered to drive. I mean, if you have a driver's license, I think you should be registered to vote. I think it should be just that easy. And I think you should be able to do

it online. And I think if you have a social security number, you should be able to vote. I think it should be really easy. And I think that's not outside the realm of possibility. I think we're operating on these antiquated systems and we've accepted them as fact and this is the way things are. And I just think that's nonsense. It's not a good system. Totally. Totally. Yeah, I mean, like, if you live in Florida, I remember when I was trying to vote in Florida, like the polling stations were in churches and I'd go and it was an uncomfortable thing to go to a church

where I'm pretty much the only Chinese guy voting. You know, a lot of people say really wild things to you in line, like when you're waiting to vote. And I'm like, I would have loved to vote online. Like what like what were they saying to you well you you probably going for that carry huh you know i mean because this is like the john carry year you're probably going for carry and it's none of your business bro you know but also i'm like why do i have to go vote at a church like i don't go to this church people get so intense when it comes to voting when it comes to tribalism super intense and and you know they they you know people just say things to you in a voting line. And I'm like,

this discourages a lot of people that may have a minority opinion in their neighborhood. I think you should have some sort of an understanding about what you're voting for, too. I mean, I would like voting to be much easier, but I would also like there to be some accountability. You should know what you're actually voting. Maybe there should be some sort of a quick online poll or some sort of a quick online exam. Can you spell this candidate's name?

I think that violates the Constitution, so I'm just going to say that. Does it? The Constitution had nothing to do with the internet. They didn't know nothing back then. A constitutional meaning like old assholes. I don't want a test for voting i think we're just expressing the frustration where like a lot of people just get ushered in like like sheep to go vote for for people i think you're expressing that you want there to be accountability yes and you want

people to be aware i would like people to know what they're voting about. But participation. If you could answer what your vote, if you understand it. You know, like maybe there's some sort of an amendment that's being passed or something that's being passed where you don't understand exactly what you're getting into. And maybe there should be a way that we find out if you understand it. I know that you have the good intentions for it, but I read these cases that once you have a test for people to vote, I mean, the powers that be, I mean, look at gerrymandering, you know? Like, it's anytime you introduce that, it always sets, like, the populace back. But I do really connect with Joe's sentiment,

which is, like, a lot of people voting aren't actually participating consciously in the process. Yeah, I mean, listen, which is like a lot of people voting aren't actually participating consciously in the process. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think being a citizen's a job. You actually have to spend some time and think about what you're authorizing for the world, what the future is going to look like and how you're going to participate in shaping it merely by voting.

I think it's a real job and I think more people are aware of that now than they used to be. It's also, there's so much to pay attention to. It is. It's exhausting, right? It is. When the elections come around and you just realize all the different things that are up, and you just go over all the different issues

and all the different possibilities, and you're like, oh, God. Yeah. I voted in California last time. All the propositions are like, whoa, this is interesting. Well, California is interesting with that. Yeah. But the local stuff is really important.

We spend so much time talking about national elections. But the people who are around you who really have power to change your life are often your most local representatives. And sometimes I worry that we pay the least amount of attention to those races. Oh, yeah. When you drive down the street and you see some guy's got a sign on his lawn for some dude running for some shit

you didn't even know was up. It's like, is he a politician or a realtor? I know. I mean, how many people do they even need to win one of those elections? Yeah. That's where you start, Eddie. That's where you start your empire.

San Gabriel Valley. Yeah. Before you're the vice president with Oprah, that's what you start, Eddie. That's where you start your empire. San Gabriel Valley. Yeah, before you're the vice president with Oprah. That's what you got to do. I can't do it, man. I can't do it. Will everyone get a car? Everyone gets a car!

Basic income. The secret is real. Everyone gets 60 Gs. 60. That's what the universal bank... You can't get 60. 30. 30.

30. I think what we settled on was 30 last time. 30. 30 seems like you could get by. Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to get rich. You're going get paid 60. 30. 30. 30. I think what we settled on was 30 last time. 30. 30 seems like you could get by. Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to get rich.

You're going to get by. Which is good. 30 is fine. I think 30 is a good place to start. I think they're trying it out in some place with 12. With someone, 250 a week. 30 is good with some like, all right, if you do get a job and you make some money, you're really paying some taxes. Oh, interesting.

There's a way. Automation's not going to hit the economy at the same time or all sectors of the economy at the same time in the same way. I think it's coming faster than we think. Not that I'm wishing for this. I just think it is because my stocks in robotics keep going up. That's my evidence. Well, Elon Musk is fairly convinced that universal basic income is the way to go. He thinks that in the future that's just going to be inevitable because there's going to be so many things that are automated.

There's going to be so many people that are out of work. Yeah. Although I think it will change our conception of work, what we do to be productive individuals. People work too much, that's for sure. I agree. I think people work way too much. You know, I mean, you live and then you're dead and you have a heart attack when you're 60. Is that really what we're doing?

I mean, isn't there a better way? How about working three days a week, you know, or four days a week? Four. Three off, four on. That seems reasonable. I work seven, but it's things I love, so I don't feel like it's work. But none of my stuff actually feels...

I mean, how many days a week do you do the podcast? I do it a lot, but I have other jobs. Yeah, you have tons of jobs. I do stand-up at night. I do the UFC commentary. I do a... But none of them are jobs. Same.

This is barely a job. Same. I love it. But also, you're your own boss, which makes work way different. Makes a different thing. It's very different than it is for most people. Yes.

Yeah. That's what I want most people to escape. I want them to escape the grind of having to be somewhere because someone tells you you have to. Having to do something because someone tells you you have to do it. Yeah. Getting a small amount of money while other people make more. I just. I think, though, the economy is changing. Because someone tells you you have to do it. Yeah. Getting a small amount of money while other people make more. I just.

I think, though, the economy is changing. I mean, it used to be that you were, there was an employer with many employees. I think increasingly we're all going to be the employee with many employers. And that we're going to have a web of contracts and activities that we use to sustain ourselves economically over time. I think you saw that developing the internet and the new platforms that are coming on board. There's consequences of that for health care and other issues that I don't think we fully tackled. But I think that there is change coming that lifetime employment and preparing for it with a single degree out of high school is, I think, something that is going to look like a historical moment more than the future. You know, there's the Johnny naysayers out there that I always get frustrated by.

They're like, yeah, man, not everybody can do that. Not everybody can work for themselves. Guess what? We're not talking to everybody. If you're not capable, that's okay. But there's a lot of people out there that are capable that just aren't doing it. Yeah. They're scared.

Yeah. And they don't have to be because we were all scared. Everybody was scared. It seemed like comfort and having some sort of security. It's a real need that a lot of people have. That comfort and security and knowing that your bills are going to be paid and everything's going to be taken care of. That's, that's a, that's hard for people to shake off. Yeah. Comfort's also a huge weakness. I think

at times, like a lot of times, you know, if you're too comfortable, you become complacent, like challenges, failures, like that's where I really start to examine myself. And I'm like, how do I be better tomorrow? Well, growth and comfort don't go together. Yeah. For anybody. Yeah. But then people get families. And then when you get families, you don't want to take any risks. That's a problem as well. People have mortgages and children and they don't want to do anything that might put them in the unemployment line. But to be clear, that could be a really smart and responsible choice at some point. Sure. When you have a lot of people relying on you. Yeah.

That's the most rational thing you can do. Yeah, that's a real problem for people. But like a blackjack dealer told me last week, scared money don't make money. Wow, did he say that? Yeah. That guy was trying to get you to spend all your money. Double down, he's like, double down, double down, I'm showing a four. And how did that bet go?

He pulled a seven and I got screwed. But that's why you go to Vegas. I told him, I was like, this is, I'm showing a four. And how did that bet go? He pulled a seven and I got screwed. But that's why you go to Vegas. I told him, I was like, this is why I come to Vegas. To lose money. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. You set a limit and you lose it. The experience of losing money.

Yeah. Okay. And I just tell everyone at the tables, I'm like, professional gambling, that's what we're here for. Like, if you hit on 17, then always hit on 17. If you hit on 16, or if you stay on 16 stay on 16 but i'm like let's practice professional gambling professional gambling is not hit on 17 though right that's if if they're showing if they're showing like if they're showing a face card some people hit i mean no not 17 well i was saying 16 i meant 16 i said the wrong thing

like i always stay on 16 even if they're showing a face card. I'm like, I just stay on 16. Really? Yeah. I'm conservative. But then I'll double down. I always double down. Yeah, the hit on 17, that's those wild white people you were talking about. Those are the people we need you to turn, Joe.

They're listening. Cowboys. Those people listen. They're listening. Yeah. Alright. I guess we probably should wrap this up. Jessica, tell everybody what your they're listening cowboys those people listen they're listening yeah alright I guess we probably should wrap this up Jessica tell everybody what your

your twitter handle is sure it's jrosenworcel spell you might want to spell that yeah I think I am going to spell that it's a long last name so that's

at j-r-o-s-e-n-w-o-r-c-e-l and so your advice is people should do the old-fashioned thing, make those phone calls. My advice is make a ruckus. Make a ruckus. Nothing gets done without a little noise. This is one of those times, and I think being a citizen requires us all to speak up right now.

Make a ruckus online as well. Let people know on your social media, your Facebook, your Twitter, all that jazz. Yep. Get in the Pornhub comments. Hashtag net neutrality. Yeah. That's not what she said. That's what I said.

I can't believe you leave comments. I can't believe I know somebody leaves comments. So Mr. Eddie Wong on Twitter and Instagram as well. Same thing. Same thing, man. All right. Thank you, brother. Thanks for putting this together. I really appreciate it. It's very important. Mr. Eddie Wong on Twitter and Instagram as well same thing same thing man alright thank you brother thanks for putting this together

I really appreciate it it's very important when people talk about this stuff thank you Jessica for being here appreciate it and thank you everybody for listening

alright bye thanks Joe that was fun man