The Joe Rogan Experience - #1147 - Dr. Debra Soh

Episode Date: July 26, 2018

Dr. Debra Soh is a former sex researcher, neuroscientist, columnist, and podcast host. She is the co-host with Jonathan Kay of "Wrongspeak."

Five, four, three, two, one. Hello, Dr. So. Hi. What's happening? Pull this sucker fist from your face. Is that good? Yeah, perfect. Thanks for doing this.

Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I've watched a bunch of your videos. I've listened to a bunch of your talks, read a bunch of your work. Very interesting person. Thank you. And this is a good time for a person like you. Things seem to be kind of scrambled.

A little bit, yeah. It's a little topsy-turvy out there these days. Yeah, a little bit crazy. So you're a sex neuroscientist? Is that an accurate description? Yeah, I'm a former academic sex researcher. My PhD is in sexual neuroscience research, and now I work as a science journalist and a columnist.

And why former? Because the climate in academia has changed so much. Like you mentioned how things are topsy-turvy, but that's pretty much how you can describe academia nowadays, even in the hard sciences. Yeah, it's getting a little weird. What do you attribute it to? I think it's a combination of things. I think it's particular ideologies coming in and taking over, but they've been there for a while, but I think it's that they've reached the mainstream. I see it as political correctness running amok, and I see it as legitimate researchers not being able to speak out because they've got enough on their plate with

their research, their teaching, they've got their students their plate with their research, their teaching, they've got their students, you know, they're super busy. And then on top of it, they don't want to deal with the mobbing that will inevitably happen if they do speak out. So things are kind of in favor right now of the craziness. But it's fascinating, though, as an outsider to watch the craziness. I bet. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad I don't have to be in school right now and deal with it. But to watch it from the outside it's just so interesting interesting in what way though well because it's almost like there's a sort of a delusional aspect to it like a an agreed upon delusional aspect it's like like the gender one in particular the Gender is very strange right now.

First of all, the LBGTQIA, what else? Et cetera. Oh, my God. Are there more? There are tons, yeah. They're adding more to it. They keep adding more, yeah, to be more inclusive. You okay, Jamie? Something going on?

The focus is fucked up. Oh. What's going on? It's all right. I got it. All right. I thought maybe we were down again um yeah it's just but gender in particular one of the things that i said about one of the more bizarre things about today's political climate is that people selectively agree with science it's like when

it comes to client climate change like everybody is pro-science, like science all the way. Look at the studies. Even when they don't even understand the studies, there's a famous, and you get in trouble when you bring up Tucker Carlson because people go,

oh, you're a Tucker Carlson fan. I'm just, as a human being, I'm not going to get mad. He made some very good points with Bill Nye. He had Bill Nye on. They were talking about science. And he said, okay, if human beings are responsible for climate change, what percentage?

What are the numbers? And Bill Nye really isn't a scientist. He's a science, you know, what would you call it? Personality. There's a media personality. He's a guy who's, you know, he's a promoter of science, but not really necessarily a scientist. So he doesn't have long-term study

and research to climate change. He's just sort of on there in a slightly arrogant way saying things that I agree with. Like what I agree with is that human beings are responsible, at least in part, with climate change. This is what all the research points to. But when tucker carlson was pressing him on

it he really didn't have any answers for it so it's one of those things where like people on the left will blindly support science in one way is that you or me dang it if it's me i'm gonna be very upset with myself don't think it's me um but then when it comes to gender you watch his show he's got this wacky show on netflix where they're they're singing songs about gender can be fluid and gender could be this and there's more than two yeah there's more than two genders which he didn't used to say yeah if you go back to one of his i did see that there was an older episode where they clearly say that gender is binary. Yeah, this is like way back before all this nuttiness stuff. So it's influencing people who are in the like people are deciding instead of supporting science and supporting the research on actual human beings as a biological organism. Instead, we're going with this bizarre politically correct climate,

which inclines people to this weird delusional thinking. And as an outsider, that's what's interesting to me to watch all this. Like, look at this scrambling. Look at this weirdness. You know, it's hypocritical. It definitely is. And it's it's interesting to see. I mean, say the March for Science. I attended that not this past year, but the year before. So people are there. They're super excited about science, pro-science. I think science is great. All this money should go to science. And you ask them, OK, so you're down for climate change being real, but what about science now by the left?

And I asked so many people this while I was there because I was reporting on it for Playboy.com. And it's amazing. People get very uncomfortable. They don't want to say anything about, I would consider myself to be a liberal, but definitely liberals don't want to think about themselves being science deniers. And when you look at how people talk about gender now and biological sex differences in the brain, even biology more generally, people get very defensive. They get angry almost. And they find it threatening for some reason, which I don't understand. And that's a big part of my work is to say, I think we can acknowledge that these facts exist and that biological science is legitimate.

That doesn't mean that sexism is OK. We're not saying that women are inferior or anything like that. Exactly. That's the big point about all this, right, is that we're not saying that anyone's inferior. We're just not the same thing. that anyone's inferior. We're just not the same thing. This is what the big problem is.

They try to say, I mean, I certainly think we should all have equal rights, but we're not equal in terms of what we are. We're a different, and it's not that we're not equal like one's better. It's just like saying a wolf is not equal to a cheetah. They're fucking different things. And males and females are different things. And this is clear when you study us as an organism. I had a really bizarre conversation

once with a guy who's a professor or a former professor, and he was trying to deny that there's a difference between men and women. It's crazy. And one of the things I said, I said, okay, you get a dog. Do you ask, is this a boy dog or a girl dog? And then he got like real weird. This is really no answer to that. Yeah.

Like it's, it's a fucking boy dog. You want a boy dog, right? Is it a non-binary dog? Like what is your dog? Or it might change its mind tomorrow. Is your dog gender fluid?

Yeah. Like what is gender fluid? Well, it's this idea that you can be one gender one day, another gender the other day, or it might cycle through the day or your mix of both. That seems like if it was anything else, you would have to be fucking crazy, right? It was anything else. Yeah.

If like, if you decided, well, today I'm African. Yeah. Tomorrow I'm Chinese. Yeah. You know, oh, today I'm tall. Tomorrow I'm short. Today I'm a pixie. Tomorrow I'm Chinese. Yeah. You know, oh, today I'm tall. Tomorrow I'm short. Today I'm a pixie. Tomorrow I'm a wood elf.

But I think everybody is. We don't have to call it something like gender fluid. Everyone is a mix of male and female, right? Sure. You have people that are maybe more typically masculine or more typically feminine. But even still, I don't think there are many people that are 100% one way or the other. No. Well, what does that even mean?

I mean, people are clearly more Masculine than other people, but does that mean that the people like, you know, let's pick a person Bill Nye Mm-hmm. Does that mean he's not a man? He's clearly a man. Exactly. Yeah, he's clearly a man. He's not a LeBron James But he's a man. Yeah, you know, there's there's there's obviously a spectrum Yeah, but I almost feel like that way of thinking is more more old fashioned because this is all about being progressive and open-minded. But I think if someone is a man, but is maybe more female typical to say that this person is a different category of gender or that they're, I don't know, not male to me, that's more stereotypical. You know what I mean? I think it's, it's not progressive to say if you're a mix of both, you must be something different.

Well, you're not necessarily a mix of both, right? You just have a different hormonal profile and a different body type. I mean, people vary so much that, I mean, I think having some sort of categories to say, oh, this is a male and this is a female, it seems like it's pretty beneficial. I mean, although we vary so widely inside those categories, to pretend that those categories don't exist just seems so weird. We would never do that with any other organism. And it's a lot of work, too. You see these companies going and they're trying to be more with the times, I guess.

Everything is gender neutral now. And I'm thinking all of that money and time is being wasted when I don't think that does anything for women or sexism. If you change, instead of addressing someone by ladies and gentlemen, you say people, is that really going to stop sexism? It just makes people mad because then they have to change the way they talk. I put up a story on Twitter the other day about people that are raising their kids with they and them.

I saw that, yeah. They're calling them babies instead of babies. Fun times. What the fuck is that? Like, I just... I think it's coming from, for some parents, it's coming from a good place. Like, they obviously want the best for their kids and they don't want to limit the kid in terms

of what they might be interested in. And I think because the media is telling them, if you let girls play with dolls, that's terrible. And they're going to end up, you know, not having any sort of prospects when they grow up in terms of their jobs or, I don't know, it's such a terrible thing to be female typical nowadays. But I mean, like you mentioned, it's biology that's going to dictate what your kids play with. And then in other cases, I think it's parents that want to be special. Well, it's also weird because if your son is trans, it's totally fine for him to be female typical.

Yeah. Like it's celebrated. Like if you have a trans son and he likes wearing lipstick and short skirts and prancing around, then he's fabulous. Like there was a boy in New York and there was this whole thing about he's the youngest ever drag queen and everybody's going crazy and people were angry about it you know exploited yeah some people were angry and saying he's being exploited by his parents and some people thought it was wonderful that this kid

was so expressive when he's so young and then other people said i had a good point they said well it's very sexualized like how is this any different than someone who's in a beauty pageant like a john benet Ramsey type situation? Well, if it was really young, if it was a little girl, people would be up in arms, sexist.

And that it's the patriarchy, but that little boy. So I don't know that he's trans. I believe that he just likes to like, like a man who's a drag queen. It's just a man. It's usually a gay man who likes to dress, you know,

like an extreme form of femininity. I love drag queens, but I think that little boy is likely going to grow up to usually a gay man who likes to dress you know like an extreme form of femininity i love drag queens but i think that little boy is likely going to grow up to be a gay boy if you have a little boy who says he's a girl and you see a lot of these trans girls if they were left alone and they didn't transition they would likely research shows they would grow up to be gay men is that you know i mean i'm a 100% for freedom, right? So I'm 100% for you being able to do whatever you want to do. The real question becomes when people are trans and young, it's how much of this is going to pass? And how much of this are you going to stop from ever passing because you're going to inject your body full with hormones like are you giving yourself the opportunity just to decide to become a gay man

versus become a woman and would you be happier either or yeah you know i mean it's very very tricky but you can't even have that conversation now that's considered transphobic right what it is is homophobic though that you can't consider that some of these kids just might be gay children yeah yeah but then the the gender fluid one i was reading this article about this guy who varies by the day he in like in the day like he'll have periods of stress so he'll switch over to a woman there was actually um a radio lab podcast okay where they interviewed a person that has the same issue and um the person was clearly abnormal in the way they communicated and the way they thought it wasn't like you were dealing with some guy that you would trust with your taxes you know what i mean it was like the dude was wacky and then now

he's a chick and now he's back to being a guy again and so he actually transitioned in mid conversation like physically no I don't know. I didn't see it because you're just listening. Okay, okay. But he's like, well, now I'm Peter again. Oh, I see what you mean. Now I'm Wendy, you know? Like, what the fuck?

Hi, Wendy. Well, I don't know how much of that is indulgent. I mean, I don't want to say I know how you feel. But I do want to say, hey, are you fucking crazy? Are we just indulging crazy people? I do believe there are people that are trans. I absolutely believe that there are women that really are wired the wrong way and they should be men.

And there's men that are wired the wrong way. It only makes sense. It only makes sense. But I do also think there's people that are crazy there's people that have legit mental illness they're delusional and they're also very susceptible to influence and very susceptible to you know someone persuading them that they are one thing or another thing look it's those like Heaven's Gate cult people who cut their balls off and wore the Nikes

and decided to kill themselves when the comet was near. Remember that? That's not normal, right? It's not normal for someone to be able to talk you into cutting your balls off or putting on the purple sneakers or killing yourself when the comet's close because there's a spaceship waiting that's going to take you to Xenu or wherever the fuck you're going. Right.

That's not normal either. So we know that people are subject to very irrational behavior under the influence of other people's suggestions or other people's persuasion. Yeah, definitely. And this is a thing today where you have to wonder like how many of these people are legitimately trans? How many of these people are legitimately trans? How many of these people are legitimately dealing with a real mental issue that's causing them to shift from male to female and back again?

And why is it that we can't ask these questions? Because why is it that even this question right now, I could be accused of being transphobic for asking how many of these people are ill? Yeah. Well, both of us are going to be accused of transphobia after this. Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that. I do think that gender dysphoria is a legitimate phenomenon, and I do have a lot of empathy for people who are suffering.

And I think for adults, they should be allowed to transition if that's what they decide to do, if that's something that will help them feel better. My issue is with the kids. I don't think it's appropriate for children to be transitioning, and I can talk a bit more about why. But I think in terms of the pathology aspect, I think for because gender is so trendy right now. And in the past, you might have seen this kind of pathology manifest in a different way. But now because everyone is saying gender is the

way to express, you know, I think people also see if you have a problem in your life, they think it's gender related. So say with someone with a personality disorder and people like a lot of attention, they like to, it's always about them and their identity and their identity shifts a lot. So this could very well be what it is. And now they're being basically rewarded for that. That's the issue, right? That you're dealing with incredibly indulgent people, which do exist. And then they find this pathway to massive amounts of attention. Yeah. You know, I mean, this is, I had to construct a bit to mock Caitlyn Jenner. I saw it. But it was a very complicated bit. Like I had to figure out how to do this. Yeah.

I was like, obviously this is nonsense and foolish, but I don't want to appear cruel. So what is the way to do this? I was like, obviously this is nonsense and foolish, but I don't want to appear cruel. So what is the way to do this? So my way was to mock myself mercilessly, which is kind of true. Like I really do have three daughters and I really do get brutalized in my house. Like I really do think they chip away at my manhood. It's kind of a joke.

But, I mean, it really is. It's all girly in my house. My fucking house is so girly. Everyone's girly. They're always talking about girly shit. It's kind of hilarious. But the joke was that if my manhood was a mountain of marbles, every day they take

two marbles. They just take one and they're like, you don't even need these. He's like, what do you care? God. And then that I'm not going to go out like Bruce Jenner. And that one day that they so I had to concoct this whole thing that they were demons,

which is how they conjured up all that money. Like how else would they have hundreds of millions of dollars through no discernible reason? There's no way you could explain to someone how they made so much money if they didn't understand our culture. It would be totally irrational, right?

So the idea was that they did this. But why I did it was, I wanted to sort of mock this thing that was happening where you got a male kardashian that's what he is i mean this and who doesn't believe in gay marriage who decides he's a woman which i firmly believe he's trans i'm not not denying that at all but our obsession with it and rewarding him with ungodly amounts of attention this motherfucker won the gold medal okay in the decathlon was it decathlon was right yeah i mean he was on the cover of weedies yeah yeah i mean he was a fucking u.s superstar athlete and then

no attention after that he was the whipping boy of the kardashians on their tv show they mocked him it's like here's this one person with fucking talent well rob too don't they mock rob a bit yeah he's fat but then they go right to that he becomes a woman and now he is the toast of the town yeah he wins woman of the fucking year he's a woman for six months and he wins woman of the year he wins espn athlete of the year he hasn't been an athlete in fucking decades since nixon was president right or carter who was it either way this is madness yeah like this is we're not treating this in a balanced way where we are rewarding people that instead of like because people are so they're they're they're so ready to proclaim their progressiveness and so excited about it

that they instead of like instead of treating them like as an equal they they go completely the other way so they're definitely not prejudiced they're definitely not discriminating against them but they're absolutely inflating what this person is yeah and and they're making it a big giant deal that they're trans like it's great to support people i would like to live in a world where there's no racism at all. So you could mock everyone equally. This is my big problem with real racism. There's a lot of dummies in every race.

But you've got to be real careful picking on some dummies. Especially if you're a white male. Straight white male. Oppressor. You guys are the devil nowadays. The devil! Especially if you look like me. I mean, I look are the devil nowadays the devil especially if you look like me i mean i look like the devil so this is a this is a real problem with like looking at things in a balanced

perspective because you're not allowed to you're not allowed to like even what you said earlier you said gender dysphoria you know that's considered transphobic yeah you can't even say that anymore even though that is a legitimate medical condition. It's because some people see it as you pathologizing being the way someone feels, I guess. But in my mind, I don't think the issue is the pathology. I think it's fine to acknowledge there are certain things. Like any medical condition that causes you distress and impairment, that's the definition of a psychiatric diagnosis. So you should be able to recognize that it's not a bad thing. I think the bad thing is the stigma that comes along with having a mental disorder.

So that's what should be fought. It's the stigma aspect, not calling something a mental disorder. If someone's really suffering, that's not a good thing. No, no, it's not a good thing. And also the denial of these conditions and the denial of the science behind these conditions. This is the issue with progressive people today, is that there's certain things where they embrace science and certain things where they deny it. And in gender, gender in particular, seems to be so hotly contested.

And I don't know when this happened. It seems to have happened right in front of our face, like it just came out of the ground, like a plant that was growing in the cracks and now it's too late you try to stomp it out and it won't go away i'm wondering i'm wondering where the the shit like i didn't see this coming and uh it's it's fascinating to see yeah i think feminism is part of it the mainstream aspect of this really far left feminism i used to call myself a feminist i don't anymore just because the things that people used to say feminism stood for like hating men

being i don't know just they don't say that well no one says some of them do they say they say they hate men oh yeah i have friends who say my male friends who say to me you know my female friends said that men are trash is that normal well there's a woman that i know that's a feminist that has on her uh her twitter account it says trust no man like just openly proclaiming that yeah well if you're straight good luck good luck with your life yeah saying trust no man but imagine if you said about women that would be a terrible thing yeah that would be that'd be awful as well but yeah you'd be a misogynist it's acceptable to hate on men now well nobody criticizes misandry you know it's just it's not something that is that gets brought up yeah i've never even said that word before i've only written it and said it or written it and heard it i mean i get it i do i think

feminism at the core had some good aspects in the beginning, but it's just gone off the rails more recently. Well, equality has great aspects. But I think the problem with any, like, white power is obviously awful. You say white power. Well, what you mean is you're racist against other races. You're into white people. But brown power is okay. Brown pride is okay.

Right? Nowadays they see it that way yeah male pride is not okay not okay but girl pride is fine yeah girl power is okay yeah it's fucking weird yeah because you're you're you're generalizing you're lumping yourself into a group of people just because you all have vaginas and the thing is women we don't all think the same but the minute you as a woman say something that goes against girl power they will descend on you yes i've seen that too well it's like you're threatening the collective agreed upon narrative yeah and you are it's like like the way girls treat sluts girls get very mad if a girl just decides to have sex with as many people

as she wants because then you're fucking up this whole economy of controlling the narrative of when women decide to or not decide to. What's the value of sex goes down that way too.

Yes, which is why prostitution's illegal. Yeah, I see both sides. I see some women, which I find interesting because I think it's confusing for young women now who are starting to date and they think, I don't really want to have casual sex, but I'm being told that's what I should do. Is that what they're being told?

I think so. By whom? By the media. More like it's empowering to go out and sleep with as many people as you want and to be like a man. Like if you look at college campuses and how there's quite a bit of casual sex going on. And I don't think that's for everyone. I think from an evolutionary perspective, too, women don't like that as much. I was talking to a friend of mine today about this who was in the military, and he was saying what's crazy about certain branches of the military is you have like 100 men to one woman. And this one woman, especially if they're deployed,

they have the pick of the litter, and they'll just fuck a gang of dudes. At the same time? I've never thought about it that way before, but he's like, well, everybody just sort of agrees that nobody has this one girl, that nobody is going to own her, and that she can have sex with as many guys as she wants so like the what he was saying is like at least in

his experience that the whole dynamic of male female relationships shift yeah and these girls can basically date as many of these guys as she wants it's kind of interesting and they don't shame her for that well they can't because there's only one yeah it interesting and they don't shame her for that well they can't because there's only one yeah it's like they don't want her to get angry at them true it's like i didn't talk to him about it a lot we only spoke about it for like 10 minutes but i was like this that's kind of crazy i never even thought about that dynamic like that that's sort of a scenario where there's a hundred men and one chick that's a lot of men that's a lot of men good luck with all that you get sore and you'd be like

annoyed like you'd be like can you leave me alone you go to sleep how much time does she have you know how much time does she have yeah especially if you're in the military you've got tasks yeah things you need to do you'd be tired yeah but it's the dynamics shift according to what is available and who's there and what kind of a culture you live in. People adapt. They're very malleable to different climates that is different than the way they're doing things. Because this would possibly indicate that there's another way or maybe their way is wrong. And especially when it comes to sex, people get very strange. Yeah, they do.

When people find out that people are in open relationships. I have a good friend of mine who's in an open relationship. And it's so fascinating to watch all the people like, you let guys fuck your girlfriend, bro? And he has to sort of discuss it. Yes, it's not comfortable for me. I wish I enjoyed it. I don't enjoy

it. So why do they have an open relationship? I don't know. I mean, you have to talk to him about it. I mean, he's got a bunch of different answers. I think the main answer is he wants to fuck other people and she wants to fuck other people. And so they just decided to do it that way. And they were together in a monogamous relationship for a while. But I think I'm correct. I think they've been in an open relationship longer than they were in a monogamous relationship. How long were they monogamous for? I would have to ask him. I think more than a year,

you know, maybe two years or something like that. And then it's been like four years of open. Okay. Wow. Yeah. I mean, open relationships are actually pretty common, uh, consensual non-monogamy. There's one study that showed one in five Americans have actually tried it. So it's pretty common. Me personally, I'm monogamous, but I think, you know, people should do what they want to do if it's consensual. I think, you know, obviously having been a sex researcher and now someone who writes about sex research for a living, I'm very sex positive. And I think a lot of the problems that we see and a lot of the suffering and distress and issues that people have in their lives could be solved if our world was more sex positive. We could just talk about sex like anything else. Right. Like the shame of it is the real problem.

like anything else. Right. Like the shame of it is the real problem. And this is what I'm saying, that people, when you're living a life that's different than the way they're living their life, people get very aggressive about it. Same way, I mean,

sober people tend to get aggressive about people who enjoy drinking or people who enjoy smoking pot or taking mushrooms or something. They get very shitty about it sometimes. And it's because it's very polar, very opposite of the way they're living their life. And they don't want to see anybody living their life in a very different way but also being happy. They think, well, this is not how I do it.

And this is contrary to my values. So you must be doing something wrong. Oh, you need alcohol to get by? Is that what you need? Like, oh, you don't need that drink. But I want it. Yeah. Can I just have it?

If I have a glass of wine, I get happy. Yeah. Who's getting hurt here? Yeah. And like, you're going to start doing heroin, then you're going to wind up in the gutter. I never have. Yeah. Never been on heroin, never been in the gutter.

Yeah. Been alive for a while. Nothing's happened. It could be a bit of projection, too, you know. For sure. For someone who's dealt with substance issues, the fear that, you know, it's easy for someone else to fall down the same hole. Right. But it's this thing that people living a different way is somehow or another unacceptable, unacceptable and threatening to their perceptions of what what you should be doing with your life. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean,

this is very unrelated to the whole, I mean, but it's not, it's when it comes to gender. Um, I think there's just this thing that people, people want things to be more easily explained than they are. Yeah,

that's true. I could see that because it takes a lot of work to actually go. So people who say that gender is a social construct. That's a good one. Sounds very nice. I love saying that. It's not. You can start saying that for no reason at all.

It's not true. But it's infuriating because it's everywhere now. Like this is what children are being taught in school up in Canada. That's what they're being taught in their curriculum. And there's absolutely no truth to it at all. But I mean, if you read the scientific studies, you cannot come away from them saying gender is a social construct. What's the argument for it? If you were arguing for it.

That I guess the idea is that women should be equal. And obviously, as a woman, I believe that. And so any sort of subjugation of women must somehow be imposed by society. Because if we acknowledge that women are different biologically in any way, that's going to be used as justification why they don't deserve to be treated the same as men or they're not as capable as men. But why is different subjugation and why is different incapable? Why is different inferior? Well, I guess because there has been a history of there being sexism. And say, so with the whole Google memo thing and this idea that women are biologically, we are different. Not to say we're not as capable, but if there are any sort of biological correlates to what women find interesting, could that be extrapolated to capability, extrapolated to women should go back to the kitchen, women aren't good at math, things like that. I mean, I get why people don't like biological explanations for things.

I think, like you said, I think it's just a lot easier. It's a lazy way to just dismiss the whole thing and say, you know, we don't need to think about it. Nothing to see here. Yeah, nothing to see here. But it's just, it's clearly not true in terms of the scientific research. not true in terms of the scientific research. So there has to be some cognitive dissonance in order to accept that and to preach it and to say it. And everybody has to agree upon it, which is one of the reasons why I think any, uh, any statements contrary to that get aggressively attacked. And this is part of the reason why these ideas are so supercharged.

It's that there's an understanding that it's horseshit. And so when someone challenges it and says it's horseshit, you've been living your whole life with this horseshit. It's almost like a religious thing. Yeah. Well, okay. I think some people know what the truth is and they actively lie because they think they're doing something good for women. So they'll say gender is a social construct even though they know it's biological and i i think people who are younger maybe going through school now we're being taught this actually don't know

the difference and actually believe it but why would they aggressively attack the scientific research that's contrary to that claim then you mean the people who don't know any better yeah they actually believe that gender is a social construct and these scientists are just sexist and misogynistic and want to keep women down. But I can get that if you didn't research it, if you didn't look into it. But once you start looking into it,

you go, oh, well, this is weird. Like there's clearly, I mean- Do you think people actually look into it though? I don't think they do. The sense I get is they find someone or some journalist who has some sort of decent sounding criticism of the literature and they just parrot that. I don't think they actually go and look at the studies. where they have an idea and that idea becomes a part of their identity. Yeah. And then they start arguing for that idea

and any argument against that idea is an argument against them as a person. Yeah. Because they're trying to win. Yeah. They're not necessarily looking at things in an objective way where they're detached from the idea

and studying it as a thing. Instead, they're arguing to try to win. And I think that is a giant problem with ideas. Yeah, because they're invested in it. Yes. And it becomes even more of a problem when it gets tribal, when these ideas are attached, like climate change, clearly attached in denial to the right in support to the left it's this very strange tribal thing and that also happens with gender and it also like if you are in support of of women's rights and you are in support of trans rights and lbgtq and all that jazz you're almost 100 going to be on the left it's just one of those tribal things if you're pro-choice you're almost always going to be on the left. It's just one of those tribal things. If you're pro-choice, you're almost always going to be on the left. If you're not, you find yourself in that. Which one was it? Was it

Tammy Lauren? I get her confused with that Lauren Southern girl. Oh, Tommy Lahren. Those girls are interchangeable in some strange way. The hot Republicans. Tommy Lahren, yeah. Tommy Lahren. She's pro-choice. Right. She got attacked. can't be yeah can't be you want to be on this team you want to be on the the mean white girl team you can't be pro-choice you gotta you gotta be pro-life yeah what about life what about the babies yeah support the baby you know what i'm saying it's like some ideas get locked into ideologies they get locked into these tribal ideologies and uh gender is most certainly one of those well because people don't want to be without a political home right that's a very

good way of putting it because if you do say say someone like Tommy Tommy who's why do I call her Tammy cuz I'm an asshole there she was she in trouble Tommy Lauren will star in pro-life film after the Blaze fired her for being pro-choice. What? So if you're a pro-choice conservative or if you're a pro-biology liberal, you know, you kind of find yourself in a weird in-between. So she's just fucking going the other

way? She's going the other way? She's going to star in a film? What's a pro-life film? It's like an ABC after-school special? Don't have an abortion, have your baby. Yeah. It's like an ABC after school special Don't have an abortion Have your baby Yeah It's weird Well she's got to get her ground back

She got kicked off the team a little bit It's a biopic on the Rovers Wade case starring Stacey Dash Oh So maybe she's playing a bad person In that movie That just made it even more interesting Strange in that movie that just made it even more interesting strange i wonder how many of those things are just distractions you know it's so weird people are so weird with their their their tribal identities you know i i just and i love when

they go back and forth and shift from one side to the other. I love it when like, well, I'm a former conservative, seen the light. Or, you know, I used to be a liberal till the party lost me. I love that. And then they go hardcore on the other side. It's weird because then everything shifts. It's not just a couple of views. It's everything to be in alignment with the other side.

Yeah, they join a church. Stop doing drugs. Yeah, it's fascinating it's fascinating um as a neuroscientist when something like the google memo comes out um you are also a woman and you are also a woman who i'm also a person of color sort of are you how's that work you're lighter than me am i well you're a different color. I mean, am I a person of color? I think you've seen more sun maybe than I have. Well, I don't know. You can be an honorary person of color.

I'll give you that badge. But I'm Sicilian. So, yeah. So, yeah, you are kind of. Yeah, somebody in my background got fucked by somebody who was darker, for sure. But I don't know how that works. Because if I was Cuban, I would look exactly the same and I definitely could be a person of color yeah I mean I just I think it's ridiculous I can't stand that

term for the record person of color because those of us who are not white we don't all think the same but we all get lumped in as you know having some sort of uh well I had a conversation with a friend of mine about that who's Mexican he was was talking about latinos and i go well you do know that italian was one of the original latin languages like i am latino if you look at it that way like what is latino yeah like you're just thinking it was only spanish that's not really the technical definition of it yeah isn't latino i mean am i correct about that i mean doesn't it emanate from a latin language i think so i think so Yeah. But it's just like Italians have been so ingrained in our culture. They came over so long ago that my grandparents came here in the 20s. So that's 100 years ago almost.

So it doesn't count anymore. It doesn't count anymore. You're not really discriminated against anymore. It's like Jews used to be. What's interesting is if you follow boxing boxing history and i know you're a martial artist you follow boxing history the oppressed early immigrants are almost always the best boxers at the time and for a while it was a lot of jewish boxers yeah a lot of italian boxers of course you know rocky graziano and rocky marciano and all these italian and then it became uh cubans

and puerto ricans and then it became wellans and Puerto Ricans. And then it became, well, there was always blacks as well. But this like the immigrants in particular, Irish, like a lot of the Irish immigrants that early on, they were thought of as like being some of the lowliest of the low. And now Irish people are a hundred percent white. Like no one even thinks about it. Yeah. Of course they're white, but I mean, they're, they're just American.

That's going to be Asian soon. We're going to be a hundred be 100 white basically well not if harvard has anything to do with it no true they're trying to kick you guys out what is it about not trying to kick you guys out but that is one of the weirder discriminations that is somehow or another slipped under the radar that they're making it more difficult for asians to into Ivy League universities because you guys do so well? Yeah. I mean, it's racism. That's all it is. It's fucking 100% racism. It's racism. And I think some of these people who are getting pats on the back for being progressive about being diverse, I think they just don't like us. And now they have a politically acceptable way to do it. But why is that? Why would they not like Asians? Well, some people just don't. Some people are racist. But is it that or is it that you guys do too well?

Well, that's the thing. I mean, we throw that whole narrative into question, this idea that if you're not white, you can't be doing well in life. You can't pull yourself up and get on with things. Yeah, well, that was the argument against the Charles Murray book. What was that book? The Bell Curve. What was the argument against the Charles Murray book? What was that book? The Bell Curve. Yes.

Yeah. One of the problems with that book is people were showing the differences in IQ by, you know, as it varies across different geographical segments and across races. And if anything, that book is really like a testament to the master race of Asians. But for real, right? like asians we do okay but genetically like asian people seem to be superior when it comes to iq according to that book i think we just work really hard and we our culture puts a lot of emphasis on education did you read the talent Talent Code? No, I haven't. It's a really interesting book. I'm finishing it up right now.

But one of the things about it is it sort of dismisses the idea of talent. And it goes into depth about all the – not dismisses it, but shows that it's not some magic gift that's bestowed upon people. But what it is is it shows all the pathways that lead to the skill developments that we consider talent. And discipline and hard work, in particular, discipline being a culturally enforced thing, which it is with many Asians. I often talk about my friend Junk Sick, who when I was doing Taekwondo, he was on the US team while he was also in his residency in medical school wow this guy was a fucking animal i i never met anybody in my life who worked as hard as him he always looked exhausted this is his face all the time he just was always tired but then would go to work like a fucking savage yeah was in between studying for his you know in the middle of medical school and he

would put his backpack on filled with books and run the stairs at the University he's fucking crazy yeah but it's this is and I would I would talk to him about it you know because my parents were not like that and his parents were like my parents were hippies and they were like do whatever the fuck you want we don't care and his parents are like you must be aies and they were like, do whatever the fuck you want. We don't care. And his parents are like, you must be a doctor. And he was like telling me about the kind of discipline that he grew up with. And that culturally enforced discipline leads many, many, many, many, many people to succeed. Whereas, you know, the sort of latchkey kids that I grew up with, there was no, there was

no culturally enforced discipline. You either developed it on your own, you pursued something that you enjoyed and figured out how to become disciplined, or you just weren't. But this thing that's in Asian cultures is what's propelling them forward. If you subscribe to all the different things that are being brought up in this book, The Talent Code, The Talent Code. And it makes sense. It only makes sense. But I think it should be seen as a positive thing that everyone is capable. It's not just a particular race or a particular group of people that can be

successful. I mean, my issue with the whole thing with the Harvard lawsuit is that why are Asians being punished for doing well? Will you explain the lawsuit for people that don't know what we're talking about? So it turns out that for decades now, Harvard has been discriminating against Asians and requiring them to have higher SAT scores than people of other ethnic backgrounds in order to get the same chance of admission. And then more recently, it's been shown that, okay, so Asians do well with SAT scores. They do well with extracurricular activities.

So the only way that admissions committees can actually penalize them is through rating So Asians do well with SAT scores. They do well with extracurricular activities. So the only way that admissions committees can actually penalize them is through rating their personality. So seeing them as, you know, less likable, things like that, because they're subjective. And, you know, I find it amazing that very few liberal outlets have covered this. The New York Times has been one. But outside of that, it's been very few. And it's really disappointing. No one has. I mean, I wrote about this for the Globe and Mail. And I was amazed no one had heard about this story at all. Well, not only that, even when it was covered in the New York Times, everybody was like, okay.

Yeah, let's go on with our day. It's gone. Like in and out. Yeah. Whereas if it was about any other subject or any other race or gender that's being discriminated against, I mean, if it was discrimination against black people in the same systematic way or systemic way, it would be outrageous. People would go crazy.

And even more insane that you're doing it to the most successful people. Yeah. The most successful in terms of academics because that's the problem right yeah the problem is not helping society either i mean if i were not asian i would be saying the same thing i don't think it makes sense to take people who are doing well and hold them back if you if you want your society to do well i think the solution would be to help people who are not doing as well don't penalize the people who are doing well well i think there's a fear of asians in this in this and i'm not bullshitting and one of the i've been obsessed with uh this company huawei recently

and what i got obsessed with them for two reasons one because i read an article about um the superiority of the cell phones that they're producing that are not being accepted in America. And so then I started doing, I'm kind of a dork when it comes to like cell phones and technology. I'm very fascinated by them. So I read a lot of articles about Huawei phones. And they have these fucking insane Leica cameras with 40 megapixel lenses and three lenses on the front and 20 plus megapixel selfie cameras and like really intense technology, much more, much higher gigabytes.

Like I think they have 500 gigabyte storage capacity, 4,000 milliamp batteries. Like they're, they're a superior battery. It's a superior phone. And I'm looking, I'm like, wow, this is kind of crazy. And then it turns out you can't sell them in the united states and they the the federal government's blocked these carriers from having them and they're saying it's because the chinese government is involved in uh stealing information and and hacking and all this different stuff i'm like okay all right maybe but but it's kind of fucking weird that you can't figure out whether or not a phone is being used to like, how are these hackers, how are these like super genius people who program phones?

You can't like look at one of those phones and figure out what it's doing. Is it like doing some magic or somehow or another it's stealing people's information and there's no mechanism that you can detect? Well, do you think there's another reason why they're not letting them in then? What I'm worried about is that they're scared that these companies, which are fanatical, maniacal in their aggressive pursuit of dominance in the cell phone markets and technology in general, are going to take over. And they're going to squash all these American companies. And I was like, how much – I mean, this is my own personal speculation, but I'm looking

at this, I'm like, how much legitimacy is in that? Because they're right now worldwide, I believe they're the number three cell phone manufacturer. I think it's Samsung, Apple, and then Huawei. But you can't buy Huawei phones in America. And I'm wondering. Yeah. Yeah. We're scared of the Chinese taking over.

Are you going to try and get one of these phones anyway? I did try to get one. But what I found out is they're not set up for the U.S. market. They're GSM phones, and I'm on a CDMA network. But the GSM phones, they're using different bands. They're not using all the same bands. phones they're using different bands they're not using all the same bands like when you buy a phone from china even if it's for the uk they don't use so if you there's some places where you would sacrifice coverage say if you bought a uh and if you're a cell phone genius out there and you

listen to me butcher this i'm so sorry but this is all i got what's up could you just use it with wi-fi only and not connect it to the network? Why the fuck would you do that? Because you're in Wi-Fi almost everywhere you are. But I'm talking about as a phone. I know, but... Where's Wi-Fi? You drive on your phone. Everywhere.

You're getting Wi-Fi when you're driving your car? How are you doing that? Time Warner has Wi-Fi all over LA. They have Wi-Fi in the air? I'm probably tracking you, but yeah, definitely. 100%. Okay, so if you're driving in your car,

you could be on Wi-Fi and have your cell phone service shut off? Cars also now have them built into their thing, too. Right, but those are cellular. They're cellular Wi-Fi. It's just a question. Couldn't you also? But that's a cellular Wi-Fi.

So you'd have to have a cellular account. So, like, who would be your cellular provider? Then you're just connecting your phone to a Wi-Fi thing in your... Right, that's a different thing, right? ...VMW or Mercedes or wherever. Right, so whatever that is would be a local thing. So you could use the phone. But you'd have to be right next

to your fucking car to use your phone. That's stupid. What I'm saying is like the problem with the, this is an article that I read that's explaining the problem from, I think it was

one of those tech sites. But it was saying that in certain places with limited coverage, you probably would have no coverage with one of these phones. Whereas it would work okay if you were in New York

or in Los Angeles or Chicago or something like that. okay if you were in New York or in Los Angeles or Chicago or something like that. But if you went to the boonies, where you might, if you have Verizon, you probably could be able to text your friends or get a phone call out, but you wouldn't be able to do it. It'd be a lot harder, yeah. It's just not optimized for our networks. Well, hopefully it'll change. Or not.

Or not. That just keeps squashing them. But I wonder. You know, the problem is, I believe they think Huawei is connected with the communist government. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They don't want that.

They're completely integrated. So it's, I mean, the separation of business and government over there is, it's very sketchy, right? Yeah. The fuck do I know? I'm just, I just wonder if there's a fear of Asian success. Yeah, I mean. How could that be though? If there's Samsung, Samsung is everywhere.

I mean, they're going to come for everybody. So they're coming for us right now. It's only a matter of time, you know. Who's they? The people who want equality of outcome for everyone. Oh, who are those people? The people who are really into identity politics. Do you think, well, I didn't really think that's what was holding back Huawei.

No. I thought it was the government. No, I didn't see that. The government was worried about them getting too much money and power. Yeah. But I guess if you're asking me in terms of my view on things and my experience, that's where I would take it. So the equality of outcome people

the reason why they're trying to keep asians or at least limit the number of asians but doesn't that have the opposite effect doesn't that make asians work even harder yeah and i mean if you keep them out of harvard they're just going to go to yale keep them out of yale i think caltech doesn't have numbers like that so at caltech there are a lot of Asians there because they don't they don't discriminate yeah so they just dominate so you use Caltech as a petri dish I could be like yeah hmm but what's wrong with that it's like discrimination but no no the other thing like what's wrong with certain cultures dominating I don't think there's's wrong with certain cultures dominating?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, well, I mean, if you're asking me in terms of what people see as a problem, I think because it looks as though other groups are not getting a fair chance. It doesn't make people feel good. Right. Because it means that you're acknowledging at some level that some people are doing better than other people. And that makes some people uncomfortable. Right.

It's the participation trophy world. Yeah. Yeah. The equality of outcome world. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Right. But it's gone to a place where it becomes indefensible. So instead of trying to raise up people whose scores are lower and give them an equal opportunity or take people from impoverished areas with poor education and give them more of a chance, which is what affirmative action was supposed to be about.

Instead of that, you're doing it from the top down. You're going, oh, no, no, no, no. There's too many of these people that are doing good. We're going to squash it. We're going to limit their ability. But how could they do that in good conscience? That's what's crazy. But doing it from that perspective, doing it like looking at a race that's super successful that is also a minority and saying too many of them.

Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think these people do think they're doing something good. They're doing it for the better of society and for these other groups. I'd like to see it too. Have you ever talked to someone about it that's pro-discrimination against Asians? I have. After I wrote that column for the Globe and Mail, a number of people came out of the woodwork to tell me how wrong I was. Were they white?

Some Asians too. Really? Yeah. What did they say? Well, to say don't let yourself be used by the far right to some white you know some Asians do really yeah yeah well to say don't let yourself be used by the far-right to justify you know taking down other groups oh that's an interesting way of looking at yeah so that I mean that's one way that you could look at it but how is that way

possible to look at it that doesn't even make any sense you how would the far-right so the far- a hold of the superiority of Asians In academics Because there are other racial groups That they don't like Or I guess they dislike more than they dislike Asians So they'll use Asians as a way to justify Discrimination against those other groups

I don't really buy that That's a shit argument That argument sucks I'd like to sit down with someone with that argument That's a stupid argument I've heard that argument sucks I'd like to sit down with someone with that argument that's a stupid argument that argument doesn't work yeah it doesn't work but what I find the most sad is there are Asians who are totally fine and they say I'm willing to give up my spot for someone else because I think diversity is important and I think that's someone who needs friends that's you need friends so bad you're willing to say that but that's a virtue

signaling thing that's one of those I hope. But that's a virtue signaling thing. I hope so. I hope it's virtue signaling. It's not someone who actually thinks that way. They could actually think that way, but the people who cut their balls off and killed themselves because they thought the comet was coming and the spaceship was behind it, they thought that too.

Yeah, people think all kinds of things. They think all kinds of things. Yeah, and that is one of the main reasons why I wanted to talk to you is that people do think all kinds of things they think all kinds of things yeah and that is one of the main reasons why i wanted to talk to you is that people do think all kinds of things and i wanted i want you know i want to talk to neuroscientists to figure out what's happening here what is it yeah let's you were saying something about the google memo earlier though yes yeah that's a i mean i had james on and you know he's kind of fucked now he doesn doesn't really have a home. He doesn't have a place to go. And I mean, in terms of like, like politically, politically, or in terms of

having a job, I mean, he's like almost unhirable. I mean, I don't know if he's employed now, but he's in this lawsuit with Google and scientifically he has every point in the world. I just don't know if it's ever going to hold up in this climate. Yeah. So I actually got a chance to talk to James as part of so there's a podcast wrong speak that I host with Jonathan Kay. And our first episode was actually about James Damore and his saga and basically how what I took away from that whole thing. I mean, it's been almost a year now. It's amazing how the media could not get it right. And I feel that they intentionally smeared him. It wasn't that people didn't understand the science or that they very intentionally said, we don't like this.

We want to get clicks or we want to basically sacrifice this man for our agenda. I agree with you. And I don't think it's just the media. I think it was the CEO of, was it YouTube, that was saying that it was promoting harmful gender stereotypes? I think it was the VP of Google put that statement out. Yes. But one of the women that ran YouTube was talking about it too.

And the way she was describing it was as if he was talking about women being inferior. And that's not what he said at all. That's not what he said. if he was talking about women being inferior. And that's not what he said at all. That's not what he said. And not only that, they neglected to promote the fact that it was at least a page and a half of that memo was about how to encourage women to be more active in tech.

This was not an anti-woman screed. No. And I mean, if you hear what he had to say when I spoke with him, he very much was for equality and very much was for men and women being working together, you know, and it's he's not a misogynist. I think it's crazy that that's the narrative that continues to go on now. cited the studies that showed why people choose different professions, why people gravitate towards different activities and different professions based on gender. And these are actual studies. So in citing those studies, he cited something that's contrary to this promoted narrative. And that's where he was shut down hence the title of your podcast wrong he did wrong speak

he did yeah and the thing is the most important aspect of the podcast is that the things that people are saying there's some truth to it it's not just crazy loopy ideas right there's there's truth to it but for some reason we still can't say it and why is that i don't know why that is but the problem with denial of any facts is that the people that are opposing you now have evidence that you're a loon right like one of the problems with the left and this really radical progressive behavior that's in denial of science is now the right gets to look at the left and go, look, these people are out of their fucking mind. Why do you trust them about abortion? Why do you trust them about this? Why do you trust them about climate change? Clearly they're loons.

And this, this is, I mean, this is just weird, toxic tribal behavior. Yeah. Because I mean, how can you legitimately deny, like you're saying men and women are different when you say that people stop listening, right. They do think you're a crazy person. And they miss the larger point, because there are some people who will look at that and say, okay, men and women are different. That must mean women are not competent. So instead of having this more nuanced argument or discussion about, we can be different, but that doesn't mean women are incompetent. They just simply say, you want to say that men and women are the same? So we're not even speaking at the same level in that case. Well, it's so foolish. And there's clearly differences between men and women, and there's clearly differences inside genders. I mean, there's human beings vary widely and wildly. And it's one of the more interesting things about us. I mean, I think it's a good thing. It's a fascinating thing.

The whole thing has got to go like this. It's got to move around. And the only way it moves around is if everybody's different. If everybody's just a block, the same shape, the same density, the same size, like what is that? That's boring. Well, it's not just boring. You're not going to have a competent society. It's not going to work. Like, you need soft and hard. You need both. You need something in between.

You need far extreme right to polarize and activate the far extreme left. I mean, I really think you need a guy like Trump to get people to be more politically active and more socially active. I think in many ways he does the left a service by providing this like ridiculous figurehead of what's possible with ego and greed and right wing gone amok. You know, the Steve Bannons and the Breitbarts and all that stuff like that stuff empowers the other side. arts and all that stuff like that stuff empowers the other side and the good thing about it is somewhere in the middle is like a balanced healthy society and hopefully we'll be able to achieve that someday but i you i mean this is the argument always is that you cannot have light without dark you have good without evil and the pendulum is going to swing back hopefully just waiting for

that time to happen it always does yeah it seems to always do that. I just would hope that with the amount of information that's available today, that we can look at the actual studies that are being done on gender, on sex, on biology, and don't look at it in terms of, you know, don't quantify it in terms of this side's better or that side's better. Just look at what fascinating differences. This is amazing and it's interesting. And there's a lot of dummies that are men and there's a lot of dummies that are women. There's just dummies. And it doesn't have anything to do with one gender being superior or one gender being inferior. It's just human beings have a lot of variability and there's a

lot of different things that, a lot of inputs in you developing and becoming a 30 year old person that happens to be talking to this other 30 year old person, your path to get to wherever you are. There's so much going on. There's influences in terms of your environment, your education, your your life experiences, your family, your loved ones. You're there's so much that leads to you being who you are today. your life experiences, your family, your loved ones. There's so much that leads to you being who you are today. And it's really fascinating to study that. But only if you're allowed to actually look at it. And be honest with it. Yeah.

Because there's no point otherwise. If you're just going to keep pumping out, like from a research perspective, if you go in, the only scientists who are going to look at this stuff now are the people who know what they're going to find in advance. They're not going to publish anything that's going to upset the public. So in my mind, there's no point to even do that kind of research because that's not actually science, what you're doing. Yeah, that's really crazy, right? That's where it gets really crazy, where you're not even allowed to do certain kinds of research. Or if you are doing it, you're going to be categorized oh he's all right yeah or you're

you know you're a conservative or you're a you know a whatever whatever you're a bad person you're bad person you're wrong speak yeah yeah exactly why did you decide to call your podcast that um i mean it's it's a throwback to or obviously, in 1984 and this idea that by controlling language, we can control, the government can control how people think and what reality is. And what I find interesting is with the topics we covered. So first episode, we talked to James Damore. Second episode, we talked to Lindsay Shepard and looked at the whole what happened at Wilfrid Laurier University. And then the third one is rapid onset gender dysphoria. So looking at this trend in adolescent girls who come out as transgender,

even though they've had no previous signs of gender dysphoria. And so with all of them, these issues are all super taboo, and all these people have been mobbed. And in the case of rapid onset gender dysphoria, you see the parents who are being called transphobic for questioning, is my daughter really trans? You know, we're just trying to get at the truth, really. We're trying to understand, you know, why is it we can't talk about these things? Why is it we're in such a situation now that the response to any sort of unpopular idea is to be mobbed and to

attack people and intimidate them and shut the conversation down? Like, how do we stop that from happening? Explain rapid onset gender dysphoria, because I'm not really aware of that. So it's this phenomenon that's been growing more recently. How recently? I'd probably say in the last 10 years. There's been a switch. So before referrals to gender clinics of kids who are feeling that they were born the opposite sex as predominantly boys, and then suddenly there's been this explosion of girls.

And so when you talk to the parents, and it's interesting, when you listen to the episode that we did, sex is predominantly boys and then suddenly there's been this explosion of girls and so when you talk to the parents um and it's interesting when you listen to the episode that we did their stories are so similar they're literally identical they their daughters have always been gender typical so they're always very girly girls they've never been gender dysphoric they go through puberty they develop you know there's no problem there and then usually what happens is there's some sort of I don't know educational session at school or one of these girls their friends come out as trans and then the daughter says oh I want to be a boy and so if you take that child to a professional

like a therapist the therapist has to affirm the therapist can't question that and so you have these girls a lot of them have autism, or they have other mental health issues. They're not getting treated for those issues. Instead, they're being told, okay, if you want to transition, we'll help you. And like I said, I'm not against adults transitioning. I don't think it's anyone's place to tell an adult what to do, and I think transitioning can be beneficial.

But if someone transitions, you want it to actually help them feel better. And for these girls, if the issue is not even about gender, it doesn't make sense for them to transition. Now this rapid onset gender dysphoria, is this typically females? Yeah, almost all females. What is the cause of that? I think it's social contagion. I think part of it is for some of these girls, they are a bit socially awkward. And so when they come out as transgender, suddenly everybody loves them and wants to support them.

And I think as people should for trans people because obviously it's a difficult thing to go through. But I think there's an aspect of it that people aren't talking about, that kids are coming out as transgender just because it gives them acceptance. An extra reward. Yeah. There's a reward in terms of the attention they get. Yeah.

And also i think for girls i mean puberty is not a fun time puberty is not a fun time for anybody but for well i wouldn't know um you didn't go through puberty i did okay i did but i mean you know for like i love when people say well it's harder for guys what the fuck would you know you've never been a girl i think it's hard for everybody everyone is kind of awkward and lanky, you know? Life is hard. Life is weird. Being a person, being a finite organism clinging to a ball that's spinning a thousand miles an hour, hurling through infinity, that's weird. Life's weird.

Yeah. And then the fact that your biology changes and you get inundated with hormones. It's just the life that we live and then adapting the culture and trying to figure out how to be accepted. Yeah. I think that that certainly plays a part. This rapid onset gender dysphoria. How is this being treated? Like in terms of like how is this being accepted in academia?

How is it being discussed in the literature? And what are the recommendations for what to do about it or the descriptions of what it is? Well, there's only been one study so far that's been published because it is such a new phenomenon. And because it is so hard to do this work, because I mean, people call it a myth. Pretty much anything that counters the transgender narrative is considered hate speech. So as a researcher, if you try to do any research on this issue that goes against what trans activists say is acceptable, you know you're going to get into trouble.

So no one wants to touch it. So there's been one study that did show, you know, with girls especially, it's very much about being influenced by friends within a peer group. I think there's some crazy high number in terms of the number of girls that will come out as transgender one after the other. So it's real. But I mean, I i get why people find it some people find it threatening because it suggests that maybe trans people aren't really transgender you know maybe the way they feel isn't legitimate but in terms of the way to treat it there are these parents are at a loss i

mean these girls are not getting treated for the underlying condition there was one parent we spoke to he saw nine mental health professionals. Every single one said that your daughter's not transgender, but they couldn't go on the record as saying so. I think only one went on the record as saying so, because they're terrified. They're terrified of losing their job. They're terrified of being attacked. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

It's so interesting when you watch the similarities It's so interesting when you watch the similarities between any group that feels that they're being maligned or that are being very defensive about their position and trying to hold strong and aggressively attacking people that are against it. In many ways, this sort of behavior is mirrored in the Second amendment people, like the people that are pro gun. Like if you tried any gun restrictions or any gun legislation or any changes in the laws of gun control, they aggressively go after it. They, they, they do whatever they can to keep things the way they are now and show how

much positive benefits guns have and how many people are saved by guns. But it's this thing, besides the gun, take the gun out of it. And it's the defense of the idea. Yeah. It's like they're committed. Yeah. They identify with being a person who's a gun nut.

Yeah. Or a gun supporter or second amendment, you know, freedom loving. I got a fucking eagle on my back. You know, that kind of shit. Yeah. It's like, and it amendment, you know, freedom loving. I got a fucking eagle on my back. You know, that kind of shit. It's like, and this is the same thing with trans people. Like anything against anything, what you're saying, this is impossible. Yeah. This thing that you're talking about, this rapid onset gender dysphoria, being autistic

people, that is transphobic. And they get super hyper aggressive about it instead of saying, oh, well, whoever this person is, if they're a trans person, instead of saying oh well whoever this person is well if they're a trans person instead of saying well i am legitimately trans but it's entire entirely possible that there's a broad spectrum yeah of of human behavior and human thought and that some of these people have a real issue and i could see the reward especially in today's climate when you look at today's climate well that's that would be an interesting study right if you look at today's climate, that would be an interesting study, right? If you look at the climate of today and the support of trans people and the attacking of people that are transphobic and the overwhelming social benefit of supporting trans people. And then you look at the rapid onset gender dysphoria and see if they match up.

And then you look at the rapid onset gender dysphoria and see if they match up. What you were saying, actually, I think the majority of trans people are not on board with this whole across the board. Everyone should just transition. But I think it's another case of the vocal minority saying, you know, shutting down anyone who dares to disagree. Well, some trans people get very upset if non-trans people talk about trans people. yeah which is hilarious yeah like what are we supposed to do supposed to just shut our mouths and let you just run things like what i don't know what to do like this scarlett johansson thing was fascinating yeah she was gonna play a trans woman in a movie and people freaked out a trans man sorry a trans man in a movie and people freaked out that she is not

trans and she has this part. You know, that was the same thing that happened with Jeffrey Tambor. Jeffrey Tambor was accused of sexual harassment by people on the set who were trans, who were also very upset that he was the star of a television show that was about trans people and he's not trans. And they were trans. I get where people are coming from. I do because, you know, they, I think representation is important to some extent. And so I can understand if you are of a group that isn't being represented in the media, how you would want that to change. Yeah. But you are also looking at an A-list actress who would bring an incredible amount of attention to your progressive project. Yeah.

And, you know, it may very well change the tone of the way people accept trans people. Like if it's portrayed in a positive light, it's entirely possible that it would open up, like, especially if people that are on the fence, it might open up their heart and make them look at things differently and say, oh, okay, I see where this woman wanted, you know, she wanted to transition to be a man because she was wired incorrectly or wired to be a man. I shouldn't even say incorrectly. Like maybe you could see her as a person now instead of just as a subject for debate or as a, you know. Well, the only fear I would have is not, not with your point, but with my point with the tokenization of people.

So to say, okay, if this is a trans role, we need to find a trans person, you know, same as with racial tokenization. Like we need to have a certain quota. So we need to have this number of people that fit this.

That's my only issue because then people look at it and say, you only pick this person because of their identity, not because of what they brought to the table. True, but I could argue against that. If you go back and look at John Wayne when he played Genghis Khan, what in the fuck was that? There's a bunch of those really goofy ones like Charlie Chan. Did you ever see the old school Charlie Chan movies? I think so.

See if you can find Charlie Chan. It's fucking ridiculous. You could even get an Asian guy to play Charlie Chan movies? I think so. I think I know who I'm talking about. See if you can find Charlie Chan. It's fucking ridiculous. I mean, you could even get an Asian guy to play Charlie Chan? Like, the fuck is this? Or they didn't even, they didn't even try to make John Wayne look like he was Chinese. Yeah. You know, I mean, there was a lot of that going on. Did you ever see that ad where you see the Native American?

Yeah, there's the guy who played Charlie Chan. That motherfucker doesn't even look a little Chinese. And he talked in like a real stereotypical, like shitty Chinese accent. Yeah, I mean, that's a bit offensive. Super offensive, right? But that was the sign of the times. And so what trans people would say was like, look, this is the same goddamn thing. This is just, you're looking at it in terms of Chinese people.

We're looking at it in terms of our people. And, you know, we're not being represented. You have someone playing us. Do you remember that Native American ad? There was an ad where someone would throw litter out a car window and the Native American guy had a tear run down his cheek. I do remember that, yeah. The guy was Italian.ian yeah he wasn't even a little bit people know that though well they do now they do now anybody gonna get upset now well some people know because i didn't

like i'm not a researcher yeah i didn't i didn't go deep and investigate i just read it i was like that's hilarious yeah i mean i think for a lot of these issues at the core there's something valuable there i do get the concern and i am empathic for that but it's to the point now where it's like every little thing yeah you know well the people this is the outrage culture people are like super pumped to find something to be outrageous and then point fingers and attack and they love it when people back down oh yeah they're so excited so like like when Scarlett Johansson backed out of that movie, everybody got so excited. We did it, girls. We fucking got her.

But when people don't back down, they just give up or they get confused. They don't know what to do. But that's the thing I find when you don't back down. They go and they find someone else. They'll leave you alone. Did you see what happened to Anthony Jeselnik? No, I didn't. They're attacking Anthony Jeselnik. They're

attacking a bunch of people for tweet jokes after James Gunn got fired. Do you know who James Gunn is? He's the guy who is the director of Guardians of the Galaxies. He had some really questionable tweets that were jokes.

He wrote some jokey joke things but it's like about pedophilia like a lot of them oh i did see that yeah yeah like a lot of them there was like a huge screen of them cut and poppied and pasted yeah yeah they're fucking terrible yeah the problem is they're not funny yeah and they're jokes and they're really gross but should he be fired for that no he's just a shitty joke teller if you find out he's actually a pedophile, that's one thing. But it's Disney and it's today's climate. So then they find that Anthony Jeselnik, the stand-up comedian, has a bunch of also offensive jokes and some of them about pedophiles. And so they go and try to attack him.

And Anthony Jeselnik writes, looking through my Twitter timeline, something along looking is like looking for a needle in a needle store on customer appreciation day yeah yeah it's so true wait his whole fucking thing is his character like anthony jesson i can i'm friends with him his whole thing is being ruthless and super offensive. He had a show called The Jessel Neck Offensive. I mean, that's what he does. I mean, his character is an awful person. That's the character. And so they just gave up. But that's totally lost on people now, right?

You just can't say things, period. Well, they're looking for people to back down, and they're looking for people to get scared. I mean, it's scared. It's fun. It's fun to find a target. Let's get them fired. Get her fired. Take her off that movie.

It's fun for them. As a hashtag, air quotes, activist, what they're doing is they're just attacking. There's probably some good out of it. And there's probably some good out of it. But look, there's got to be some good for sure out of real monsters getting arrested. Right. There's some good out of like the Harvey Weinsteins and the Bill Cosby's of the world getting arrested and getting busted and shutting down. And we would hope that other monsters in waiting would not act out on their instincts because of the fact they're worried about the repercussions that you're clearly seeing. And that we would hope that people that our behavior as a culture shifts one way or another.

And then it's going to move as far away from misogyny as possible. And it's whether it's through the threat of incarceration or shame or whatever it is that causes it to go the other way, it's probably for the best. As long as it doesn't go as far as all men are pigs, all men are creeps, all men are trash. And that's what we were talking about earlier. Like when it gets to that place, you got to go, well, this is not a good place to be. that place you got to go well this is not this is not a good place to be well also if there is an allegation that that's taken at face value right away because we do see unfortunately that some of these allegations are false well it has to be this whole idea of believe women well okay but was okay does that mean don't believe men because some women lie and some men lie what about

individuals what about human beings? So if we're going to, I mean, it's what we were talking about earlier, like white power, black power, brown power, let's fucking human beings. And as soon as we stop looking at human beings as individuals, and we just agree that one group is good and one group is bad, you've got some real discrimination problems there. Yeah. Well, you can't win in that way either, because you can't look, whether you side with believe all victims or I believe, what is it?

I believe women or something like that. Yeah. There's a hashtag. Believe women. I believe survivors or something like that. Right. And then, or if you say you want due process and women lie and you know, that side of the equation, I think either both sides are equally bad because

you're not getting at the truth well we're also in this weird slippery thing when it comes to human beings and truth because it's so hard to tell who's telling the truth if two people see something like see a car accident and uh one person says well this lady ran the red light slammed into the car and then the person right next to says no she didn't this other guy ran the red light and and and she hit him and this there's a lot of subjectivity in terms of like interpersonal relationships well there's also a problem with just describing things and language and reality it's i don't know if you're telling the truth i don't know especially if it's just like you you know, I leave, I go to the bathroom, I come back and Jamie says, she just called me a piece of shit. And you're like, no, I didn't.

Like, okay, well, who's right? I don't know. I literally don't have a mechanism to detect who said what. It is not possible. So am I just going to believe women? Or am I going gonna believe the individual or am i gonna try to like figure this out am i gonna do my detective work fuck it's very tricky so when you're dealing with some certain accusations when it comes to human beings

like this chris hardwick thing is a perfect example of that i mean he was just reinstated yesterday by amc and um yeah that's a weird one because she wrote the it was an ex-girlfriend that wrote something about him yeah i read that well she clearly didn't tell the truth about some aspects of their relationship she cheated on him and that's why he got rid of her or broke up with her and then he she also said he was his terrible boyfriend and he did all but then there's videos of her talking about what an amazing boyfriend he was while they were together. About how he stayed with her in the hospital and slept by her bed. And she had a host of mental illnesses that she described in their video about not being able to drive down the street with the windows open because she was worried that germs were going to get in her car.

And some of those she recovered from and some of them she didn't like it's and there's another problem with people when it comes to when they're talking about things they might not even be lying yeah they just might be they just might have a distorted perception of reality yeah that is another problem with human beings when it comes to any sort of interaction between two people especially after a breakup i think the way that a person can view the time they spent with someone can very much change based on their current situation or how that breakup happened. A hundred percent.

Yeah. On both sides. The real problem though is what we were saying is that human beings, it's very difficult. I can't read minds. You can't read minds. You can't look into memories. So we're relying on a person's description. And then we have to rely on what we know about them.

What we know about their ability to describe things accurately, what we know about their perceptions of reality, their delusions, their clarity. It's fucking super tricky. Yeah. I mean, my rule of thumb, what I would say to people is, unless you know the two people, I don't think you can ever really know what happened. So in that case of, say, you leave and Jamie tells you I said something about you, you're probably going to go with Jamie, right?

Because you know him. So I would say the same thing. Jamie's a little crazy. I might go, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's for sure if I didn't know you and Jamie told me you did something fucked up, I would side with Jamie. But even that's weird.

Like if I'm not there, if I don't know, if you say I didn't do anything, I'm like, well, maybe one day you'll be my best friend. And maybe one day Jamie will turn out to be a fucking psycho. I was like like remember when we used to think jamie was okay he's fucking crazy but that's the thing too i think sometimes with i do empathize with some women who say if this happens to them and and people say well that's a nice guy i know that guy that's my buddy i've known him forever but you didn't date him so how

do you know you don't know right yeah you don't know god damn. Yeah. You don't know. God damn it. It's fucking tricky. Yeah. You know, have you ever seen that episode of Black, do you ever watch Black Mirror? I watched one episode. So everyone tells me how amazing this show is and I think it is amazing, but I saw one episode that really freaked me out. Was it Crocodile? No, it was the one about, it was actually about the boy who was a pedophile and then

he was being watched and blackmailed. Whoa. Creeped me out. I didn't watch that one. But there's one called Crocodile. Okay. And it is easily the most disturbing episode of a television show I've ever watched in my life. And it has to do with technology that allows people to read memories.

Okay. And I'll leave it at that because no spoiler alerts here. But until... It is a fucking dark episode. It stays with you after. This one does. This one's dark. I mean, this I mean, I can't I can't I will give too much away if I talk about it.

But the concept is that you can they have a machine and they set this machine up and through this machine they can literally read your memories. OK. Until that happens, we really don't know and you know there's been things in my life where i looked back on it and i had a perception and then i went to the place where i grew up and i was like i don't remember it looking like this i don't remember this being so close oh the street's right here this is where the house is oh and then you have to kind of like remap your memories. Like, okay, we got to clean these memories up and try to figure out what's accurate and what's not.

But then this, I'm just talking about like the neighborhood where I grew up in. But what about you're adding in emotions? Then you're adding in painful emotions because of breakups and perhaps suicidal thoughts and oh my God. Time going by also. time sure i mean it's been absolutely proven that eyewitness testimony is the least accurate piece of evidence that any investigator can ever use in terms of like trying to figure out what happened at the scene of a crime or anything involving any sort of trauma it It's fucking hard with people's minds.

Yeah. And I mean, when we look at say the issue with me too and the sexual assault and sexual harassment that I think also some people see this and they think I want to help this person. So they might reinterpret their situation in a way to say, you know, I also want to help this person.

Well, I think there's clearly without doubt been a lot of unchecked sexual harassment in the workplace I've always said this and this is not to say that men and women shouldn't work together I'm not saying that in any stretch

I just want to get that out of the way really quick but when men and women do work together they're around each other all day and people are sexually attracted to each other and men are gross and it's just like this guy that i was having this conversation with today we were talking about that i was like could you imagine being a girl and working in an office and guys trying to fuck you all the time and they're always saying stupid shit to you we're trying to get coffee and like we were talking about gay guys and he was saying like do you have

when he was in the military would you have a problem with gay guys and he was saying like do you have when he was in the military would you have a problem with gay people and it was really funny he goes he goes i would want the if i was working with a gay guy i'd want him to like me because that way he'd try to impress me and he'd do his job better and he'd be real nice to me and we were laughing about it but i was like okay that's true but if you were on a gay guy that was always trying to fuck you and like maybe touched your ass when you bent over to pick up some paper or something like that, like that would get real annoying. Yeah.

And if your job relied on this guy liking you and approving you, which a lot of women's jobs rely on creeps liking them and approving you, it gets fucking disgusting. That's the reality that many women have lived with for decades. Yeah. I don't deny that. Yeah. This is, this that many women have lived with for decades. Yeah. I don't deny that. Yeah. This is going to shift. I'm hoping.

I'm hoping that even with the far reaching aspects of it where all men are trash, I'm hoping the tide's going to just sort of settle back in. Instead of being over this way, it's going to come back over this way and just balance out in the middle a little bit. And we'll get a better understanding of each other. Yeah, that's my hope, too. And I mean, I hope that there's not so much damage done that's, you know, fixable at that point. What damage?

Well, you see, I feel men nowadays are terrified to interact with women. Eh. Especially in the workplace. I think you should be careful anyway. Look, I think we're all way too casual about getting intimate with people. And I've been guilty of it myself in my life at many times. But I think you should get to know people a little bit better. The problem is people are horny. And they're like, I get it. I get you. Oh, you get me? Hey, let's do this. You know, and that's a real problem. And then you hook up with crazy people. And then you have to keep

working with them after. Yeah, that's even worse. People that have inter-off real problem. And then you hook up with crazy people. And then you have to keep working with them after. Yeah, that's even worse. People that have inter-office relationships. I know people who work in offices where it's strictly forbidden. Like you're not allowed. And then I'm like, well, okay. But what if you fall in love with someone in the office? What if they're the perfect person for you?

You got to quit your job? Yeah. I don't like businesses imposing that i think people should be able to make those decisions but it's a tricky decision i would never date anybody at work and i you say that well but i don't are you married no i'm not married okay you have a boyfriend uh no okay what if you met a guy that you worked with and he was fucking amazing You met a guy that you worked with and he was fucking amazing. And he was single and you're single and you guys just got along great.

And he was respectful and he's intelligent. He's funny and he's interesting. And you like doing things with him. But there are lots of men in this world who are. Get the fuck out of here. There's not. That's not true. There are so many men in this world. Why is it this one person I work with is the only one who's going to be a match for me he's the only one you've ever met that's like that I don't think so I mean but

the thing is I'm very career oriented so that could be part of why in my mind because you're Asian well that's the grindstone it is racist right it's racist to say that Asians are determined but in that way I guess I'm a little bit more risk averse I'm not going to jeopardize potentially jeopardize my career over a person that I meet that I like. What if he was willing to quit his job? Well. Then you wouldn't like him. But yeah, I'd be like, you're going to quit your job for a woman?

I don't know. You fucking loser. What are you going to do if we have kids? Yeah. Yeah. I see both sides. But then I see. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. I see both sides. But then I see, okay, now imagine being a woman who works in the office with this guy who's in love with this woman. And then they have a relationship. And then all of a sudden her career starts doing a little bit better. That's the thing. And other women like me say, well, wait, we're not sleeping with people to get to the top.

Is that fair? Well, that is the world of the actress. It is. And that is the world of the actress it is and that is the world of the casting couch yeah this is the seat this is the not so secret aspect of the casting couch that many many many people are aware of yeah is that these women fuck some of these men and we're not talking about rape we're talking about women who chose to engage in willing full sex with people who transactional yes transactional is a great great way to put it there's a lot of women who i know who are actresses who were approached for by certain types of men who are producers or executives in certain ways and they said no and then girls that they know said yes and their careers advanced yeah and this was a thing where people were aware of it. There's a power dynamic that exists when there's a boss and then there, or whether it's a CEO and an employee,

when they engage in some sort of a transactional sexual relationship, that makes everyone fucking uncomfortable. Yeah. But how do you stop that? Do you think it's the industry's job, or how do you weed that out? I think corporations pretty much across the board now just fire people when they do that. There was a recent CEO of some some large high-profile company who had to step down because he was involved in a consensual sexual relationship with somebody do you remember who that was it was real big something super recent but it was there was no crime but it was Consensual sexual relationship with someone who worked for him was it Intel yeah

that They're around each other. Yeah, like you think about it if you go home say if you work eight hours a day and It takes you an hour to drive to work takes you an hour drive home That's fucking ten hours and nobody works eight hours a day if you really want to make it right you work nine and ten So it's like half the day is gone. You get home. You're exhausted. Your husband's exhausted.

You're staring at each other. You're together like three or four hours. You have a meal. You go to sleep. You get up in the morning. You go do it again. You're with those people at work more than you're even with the people that you live with. And that's your waking hours. By the time you get home, you're even with the people that you live with. You know, that's really, and that's your waking hours.

By the time you get home, you're fucking tired. And if you go to the gym afterwards, well, there's an hour and a half gone there. You might see each other for an hour a night. Yeah. No, and especially if people are single. I mean, obviously it's a little bit easier for that to happen as well. Yeah. It becomes a big part of your social interaction.

I mean, how many people their their social circle is primarily the people that they work with yeah real common right very common yeah yeah so i mean i think if it's a consensual relationship there shouldn't be anything wrong there but i can see how in this climate there are all these other you know ways of looking at being imposed on it so is that really consensual if it's someone who is your boss? But then imagine, say, if you and Jamie work together, okay? And you guys had a consensual sexual relationship and you both were on the same level.

You both, it's not like anybody has any power, but then you break up, you know? And then Jamie comes over to me. He's like, yeah, I gotta tell you, that doctor's a fucking asshole. He's a bitch. And then you come to me and you're like, you know, Jamie, he looks like a good guy, but when you start dating him, doctor's a fucking asshole. He's a bitch. And then you come to me and you're like, you know, Jamie, he looks like a good guy.

But when you start dating him, he's a fucking selfish prick. Yeah. People need to leave that at home. Yeah. Well, it definitely becomes a problem in the workforce when you're not just friends. Friends is fine. But when you start having sex with each other, that's when things get crazy. You know, very few people are able to separate sex and emotions with friendship.

Very few people. That's probably, that's one of the things that's admirable about these people that are willing to have these open relationships. It's like, whoa, like you can, I know guys like hang out with other guys who fuck their girlfriend yeah I'm like Jesus you're a better man than me

well some of them like that though like if they're masochistic they like the idea of their woman being having sex with another guy well you didn't want to use the word cuck I like how you went with masochistic well I mean I guess that's a technical term too we can call them cucks

cuck is a compromised word though isn't it yeah there's a whole other stuff that comes with that yeah it gets squirrely I thought it always meant that it it always meant like cuck hold like you want to watch men have sex with your wife yeah but then it got

to where what is it what is what is basically like your beta male beta male but there's so many different versions Yeah. But then it got to where, what is it? What is it? It's basically like your beta male now. Beta male. But there's so many different versions of it now. It's become really freely tossed around like a beach ball at a concert. Just throwing cuck around these days. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's fine if that's what you're into. No judgment there. Yeah. Someone's into being cuckolded. Yeah, if that's what you're into. Good luck with that just okay cuck a man who's desperate for acceptance approval and affection from women oh now it's different this desperation has led to the compromise of his beliefs and values the

desecration of his dignity and self-worth, and his inability to stand up for himself. Does 4chan write this? And what he deserves as a human being. Example, loyalty, fidelity, and honesty in a romantic relationship. Okay. Okay, look at the example they gave. Hold on a second.

I know John's always wanted a girlfriend, but since him and Mary started dating, he's become a cuck. She spends all of his money and flirts openly with other men. I can tell it bothers him, but he's so afraid of losing her that he doesn't say anything. That's a cuck. Sounds like a male feminist also. I can't believe you went there. I don't.

Yeah, that male feminist thing. I've known a few that were real creeps. That were fake creeps. You know, they're like on the side. they're posturing as an alternative to these men who don't want monogamous relationships or would break the woman's heart or not willing to compromise and bend to the will of the woman. And they put these women on a platform and worship these women, and I am the alternative. And I'm the powerful alternative. And these men are assholes.

And then they try to shit on those men and take those but all it does is make those men appear even more attractive to these women secretly these men these feminist men and these women have these weird relationships where it doesn't work and they're never sexual or if they are sexual the women aren't really sexually attracted to them so so they withhold sex. It gets super weird. Obviously, I just generalize a lot about a giant group of people's relationships, but what I've seen, it's just they don't run fast. They can't pick things up.

They're not attractive. They're little weasels. They're trying to find another way in. Yeah. I mean, I think not all men who call themselves feminists are male feminists so in that i think men who ascribe to women being equal that's a good thing yes i think a lot of guys will say yeah i'm feminist because they think that's the right thing to do that's the socially acceptable thing and that's the way we should be but then the ones who run around and say, you know, really, really push it and make that their identity and really sell themselves as male feminists. Those are the guys I have an issue with.

Because like you said, they're sneaky. Yeah. They know what they're doing. Yeah. They're not being honest. Well, you could almost always tell. You see them. They're a type. You know, they're just they're a type mm-hmm you know they're

just they're an unattractive type they're not attractive to women and so they try to figure out a way mm-hmm like how am I gonna do this what's gonna be the way you gotta figure out a way to stand out this is the way I'm gonna just what what do these women want to hear they want to hear that I'm gonna say that yeah egalitarian is great you, someone who believes in equality is great. But as soon as you, like, you're proclaiming yourself to be more interested in the opposite gender and more supportive of them than males. And even though you are a male.

That should be a red flag. That's a giant red flag. You should be into humans. I like people. I like people. I like them gay. I like them straight. I like people. I like when they're nice. You're nice to me. I'm nice to you. That's what I like. I don't want you to get discriminated against in any way, shape or form. Yeah. But I don't want to pretend that one group is better than other groups, except Asians when it comes to Harvard. The crazy thing is with these guys, though, you see there's been a trend where they actually have a lot to hide. And they usually are misogynistic and they usually do abuse women, which is the scary thing.

I think what happens is there's a certain amount of resentment that from living this sort of like fake life and having these fake beliefs and doing so just to get to the approval of women, you know? And then when it doesn't work out, there's anger, resentment, and this, this just, or I think some guys put it on because it's a way of overcompensating for

their own guilt. Yeah, that's true too. Probably. Yeah. There's probably a lot of different reasons why men become feminist and very few of them are good unless they're just their idea of what it means is different than my idea what it means my idea means look at that little sneaky

fuck that's my idea you know when i because i've just seen so many of them yeah it's like look i'm sure some bank robbers are really romantic interesting poets who just decide this is a great way to make money there's got got to be one, you know? But most of them are fucking criminals, right? And this is like how I feel about male feminists. Like I'm sure there's a bunch of them out there that are really good guys and maybe through the influence of the people that have been around, they've chosen to identify as a male feminist

and this seems to be a good way to show that they support women. And even if they have to support women over men, look, women have been fucked over for so long, I'm more than willing to do that.

And they do it with good intentions. That's entirely possible. But a lot of it are creepy little dudes that are trying to get laid and they're not attractive to women.

So they're trying to figure out a way to become attractive to women. And they don't have the confidence to just go, well, aren't we all all equal aren't we all just all humans aren't we all different or work on yourself to make yourself more attractive to women instead of deceiving them one of my all-time favorite tweets that i read was a guy saying i'm not going to describe myself as a feminist until women tell me that i'm doing feminism correctly i saw that yeah

he's like more feminist than regular feminists he's like so feminist you can't thousand times yeah i can't be a feminist to women tell me i'm a feminist mistress mistress please tell me he's that dude's got a ball gag on right now he's like tightening it down he's putting himself in the shackles but then there's women like that too there's women that pretend to be one of the guys like that girl yeah there's always the one of the guys girl people can sense it though like i think other guys can tell when a male when a guy is not sincere about being a male feminist and the same with girls can tell oh yeah you yeah. You know the big red flag with girls? Girls who don't have girlfriends.

They're just friends with guys. I get along with guys better. Yeah, I bet you do. I had a friend of mine who's dating a girl like that. And all she had was male friends. I was like, dude, I'm like, get out now. Like, this is not going to work. So tell me, what does that mean?

Girls don't like her. Yeah. Girls don't trust her. You can't find any girls. Yeah. That's crazy. That is crazy. I'm not saying you shouldn't have some guy friends, but all your friends are guys.

Yeah. That's a red flag. No, I would agree with that. And any guy, you have a straight guy and all your friends are guys. Yeah. That's a red flag. No, I would agree with that. And any guy, you have a straight guy and all his friends are girls. Yeah. No. What in the fuck is happening here? Right?

I just don't get along with guys. Guys are assholes. I don't like the way they talk about women. Oh, okay. All of them. All of them do. Yeah. Come on.

Where are you hanging out, dude? You don't like any guys? do. Yeah. Come on. Where are you hanging out, dude? You don't like any guys? Okay. Yeah. Seems weird. So what did your friend do? Oh, he got fucked around on. Yeah.

Yeah. She was fucking all those guys. I was going to say, yeah. Of course. I mean, the writing's on the wall. Yeah. It was ugly, too. The way it went down.

It was like, whoa. But that's how it is. You know what I mean, the writing's on the wall. Yeah, it was ugly, too. The way it went down was like, whoa. But that's how it is. People are always trying to find their way in. What's my way to get the most acceptance? My way to get the most happiness? I mean, it's fairly unrelated, but not necessarily to what we were talking about, about gender dysphoria, about some people choosing that as a path to get a lot of attention. I mean, I think there's many things that people do to get a lot of attention.

There's things that people do to stand out as typically unique, right? Like dye their hair pink or purple or blue or wear certain things or do certain piercings. And there's things that people do to get attention and fit in and find their niche and just do something where it makes them feel like they have some clout in this community of humans. Yeah. It helps them find other people, too, who are like them. Yeah.

Yeah. And also, they're signaling to each other that we're all equal. We're all similar. We're all in this kind of clan. We're outsiders. You know, it's fascinating. I'm all for that. I'm all for people finding each other and, you know, self-expression.

It's only when it is having negative implications for other people, that's when it's a problem. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, when it's not just a bunch of people finding each other, but a bunch of people looking at the other people and attacking them for not being similar. Yeah. But that's one of the things people do to sort of affirm their identity, right? You attack the people that oppose that identity or attack the people that are different.

Do people need to do that, though? I wish they didn't. Yeah. But they do so often. They do. You've got to wonder, like, objectively, if you were from another planet and you were watching these patterns take place. You go, wow, look at this creepy little organism. Look at this weird thing that it does.

Yeah. Going back to the transgender bullying, I guess, my issue with all of that intimidation is the fact that these kids are not getting the help that they need. with all of that intimidation is the fact that these kids are not getting the help that they need. And so if we look at something like I was saying earlier about if it's a little boy who says he's a girl, he's likely going to grow up to be a gay man. You can't say that now. And so all of the scientific research suggests that, all the studies ever done suggest that. But you can't say that because it really upsets transgender activists.

And so you have all these children now who are transitioning who I think in five, 10 years are going to regret it. Isn't this sort of similar to what we're talking about earlier is that historically trans people have been so discriminated against that it shifted so hard the other way that it's gone the other way. Like just what we were talking about in terms of sexism and then harassment in the workplace and sexual harassment and rape was so one-sided that now it's pushing the opposite way. Like I read a tweet once by this woman that said, here's an unpopular opinion.

And she was an editor of a magazine. She wrote, here's an unpopular opinion. I'm not even remotely concerned with men being falsely accused of sexual harassment or assault. And she was attacked. Brett Weinstein retweeted it and pointed out how wrong this idea was and how crazy this is to take allies who are falsely accused of sexual harassment or assault and not being concerned about that. Like you're only concerned with your own gender. And this is a perfect example of an intelligent person that's thinking in this really crazy discriminatory way

because in her mind, her team had been fucked over so many times that it's time to fuck over that other team. If we lose a couple of people, hey, we shoot some drones into some apartment buildings and a few civilians die. At least we got the terrorists. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I understand that, like the anger that comes with that, I think for the people who are the most militant, so not to say that of this particular person, but I think of women in particular, who are the most militant about this movement, I think they really just have been hurt badly by men.

And it's a way for them to express that. But you can't say that. No, you can't. If you say that these women that are angry about men, that they've been hurt by men, so now they discriminate against large groups of men because of that pain. If you do that, you're a self-hater. Yeah, internalized misogyny.

Yeah. Yeah, which is sad. I mean, but you can't actually-hater. Yeah, internalized misogyny. Yeah. Yeah, which is sad. I mean, but you can't actually argue with it. Where does this balance out, though? Does it balance out to a point in our children's future, our children's children's future, where this is no longer a concern, like cannibalism is no longer a concern,

or a very, very slight you know where it's an aberration where it's a very very rare thing i mean is that's the the ultimate goal right is that we reach a point in our society where we do not care if someone's gay we do not care if you're a girl we do not care if you're a boy and we're not mad if you're not attracted to us or yeah i mean that would be a wonderful thing right if we get to a point where people are just comfortable in their own skin you mean this craziness like where is it eventually going to lead us i mean culturally across the board whether it's male versus female whether it's trans versus straight all of this gay versus straight whether you whether, you know, progressive versus conservative.

I would love it if we got to this point with all this chaos and calamity and arguing back and forth. It would be fantastic if we can get to a balance point. Yeah, no, I agree. And I do think we're coming up to that point because more and more I see people are saying that they're not okay with this I've in terms of the things I write about people reach out to me and say you know what I'm so glad you said that I agree with you even the

response to wrong speak I really thought that people were gonna lose their minds in terms of the things that we said but you know it's been very positive feedback so I think more people than you might think are actually on board with, you know, wanting to come to a middle ground. And they're not okay with this, the extreme craziness that we're seeing. So I think that's a good sign. It's just a matter of waiting it out. I hope you're right. And I hope that we understand why things get extreme and that as human beings, we can look at it with compassion and say,

like you were saying, like the women that are so angry against men, like, well, then it's not just because for no reason, something had to happen to them. Like I had a friend and, uh, he was not an attractive man. And, uh, over the time that I knew him, he became more and more resentful to women to the point where he would just openly say fucked up, misogynistic things about women. And it was weird to watch, but it was it was one of those things where I was like, oh, I see. He associates women with pain. Yeah. And he associates them with just wanting his money or trying to fuck him over. And this is his perception.

This is how he looks at women. Like, oh, OK, I get it. Yeah. Which is sad, you know. And in that case, women, obviously not all women are like that. Just like not all men are the men that these women have encountered in life. And you can't generalize from one person to everybody. No, you can't.

But when we look at it with compassion i mean the hopefully the healthy people the people that aren't in that state of anger and resentment that they look at it with compassion they go oh okay i see why this woman would write that tweet she's met a bunch of fucked up shitty dudes probably male feminists right yeah and that she doesn't need to be mobbed over her tweet either trust no men yeah or man yeah that kind of shit it's like okay i get i get where that's from i just think there's entirely too much conflict out there yeah but you know i think our society almost thrives on it I would say the media definitely thrives on it. It's fun. Because if you're not angry and upset about something, what are people going to do?

Yeah, I mean, look at Twitter. I was going to say social media, too. Facebook's the best because Facebook, those assholes are allowed to write fucking paragraphs. Paragraphs of bullshit. I swear, do they have jobs, some of these people? They do. Because you click on the more thing you know, you click on the more thing and then there's way more.

Way too much. You think there's just going to be two lines, but no, it's like six pages. Yeah, I think that that is a real problem. And I think one of the more unique things about Twitter is that it limited you to 140 characters. And then people complained, so they gave you 280. I feel that's too much sometimes.

It's too much! 280's too much! I can's too much. $2.80 is too much. I can't read all that. Sorry. As a comic, $1.40 was great because it made you really invest in the economy of words. You really had to make sure that you got your point out as quickly as possible. It's great for joke writing because you can just da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da. It's a good way to like really trim down the fat in your jokes but it's not a good way to express ideas and that's one

of the good things about twitter is they have this thing where you can reply to your your tweet and then reply to that reply to that yeah and they all thread and they all fit in together yeah i like that but i don't like it sometimes because sometimes people just fucking drone on and on and on and this you know there's this is a first draft too yeah edit this shit bitch like there's too much nonsense in there do you get that with your dms too that people just send you a massive block i don't read them i very i barely skim through my DMs. I can't. I follow too many people. One of the good things is I get a lot of interesting things in my feed. One of the bad things, I'll get 500 DMs a day. I can't do that. I saw someone wrote a tweet that said, if you don't write two sentences for the DM, I'm not going to read it. And that was their pin tweet.

Wow, that's aggressive. I read as many as I can. I just can't read them all. There's no way. Yeah. It's like you can't reply to everybody either. People say, well, can you reply to my mentions? I can't.

Yeah, and you can't like all of their stuff either. No. It's too many. It's too many. Plus, I don't want to read people's stuff. It's just I don't have, you don't have the time and also you're running the risk of

encountering too much negativity and then also things that you disagree with that you want to like oh i should say that that's bullshit that's not even true i'm gonna tell this guy this is what actually happened yeah you don't even know history i don't want to do that i don't want to argue with people about random facts or science or anything. I'll look at it and I'm like, okay. But have you been mobbed before? You have. Oh, yeah.

What's been the worst? Oh, one of the big ones was about Trans Fighter. I remember that. Yeah, that was a hilarious one. Yeah. Because I'm like, you guys can kiss my fucking ass. You're out of your mind. You guys are out of your mind if you think that a man who has been a man for 30 years and has taken female hormones for two is the same.

You put Brock Lesnar, chop his dick off and put him in a dress. That guy's going to mall through the women's heavyweight division, like nothing you've ever seen in your life because we're built different. And it's just a fact. And anyone who tries to argue that is crazy. And there are, there's certainly standouts in terms of women who are like much more muscular,

higher bone density, particularly African American women have very high bone density. But there's a different shape to their hips. There's the size of the hands, the size of the shoulders. Things are different. Also, the imprinting of years and years of testosterone. It's just there was a great article by this board-certified endocrinologist who went over all the things that separate men from women, which should exclude them from competing in combat sports

against women and this woman was called a transphobe and she's a fucking endocrinologist she's talking about the science and she's also talking about the science of one of the things they talk about is how women you know or uh trans woman once they transition to being a woman they're basically biologically almost exactly the same as women. She was like, no, not only that, but the bone density is retained by taking estrogen, which is what the problem with women when they have osteoporosis, they're losing estrogen, they lose bone mass. Well, the estrogen actually helps you retain bone mass. So when a man transitions to a woman and then starts taking estrogen, it's actually helping retain the bone mass that he would have lost by not having testosterone.

And then on top of that, reaction times. The reaction times are several tenths of a second faster in general for women than they are for men rather than they are for even professional athlete women. So all these variables that need to be taken into consideration when you're allowing someone to do a sport. And we're not just talking about bike racing. We're not talking about something where someone... Non-contact.

We're talking about the most contact. We're talking about fucking fighting. There's benefits that certain people have. There's physical attributes. There's variables inside the genders right there's some men that have gigantic physical advantages over other men and all of those are taking into you you there's no like even playing field when it comes to even intergender competition or male versus male competition. There's no real level playing field. So the best we can do is say, okay, you guys got to be the same weight.

Let's just make that. Make it the same weight. And that's as close as you can get. But even in that, there's people that are just physically, they're just going to be better. There's no getting around it. There's going to be better athletes. They're going to no getting around it there's going to be better athletes there's they're going to have better genetics you know there's nothing you do about that but one thing we can do is we can keep women from getting beaten up by men and and men who transition to being women and if you think that's fair you're fucking

crazy and it's just not it doesn't it doesn't any sense. And the arguments for it are so shitty and they're so riddled with progressive speak that they're trying to pretend that this is a woman now. This is not a woman. This is a trans woman. This is a male. She has a Y chromosome. She transitioned to being a female. Now she's a trans woman. And if you choose to fight her and you're a woman and you know that she's a

trans woman i'm totally fine with that but that was not what was going on here what was going on here was this woman who used to be a man for 32 years transitioned to being a woman and it didn't tell anybody and fought two different women who thought they were fighting a woman and got fucking smashed badly injured yeah i was watching it it was like watching a were fighting a woman and got fucking smashed. Badly injured, yeah. I was watching it. It was like watching a man fight a woman. That's what I was watching. I was like, this isn't particularly, she wasn't particularly skillful. It wasn't like she had some unbelievable background in judo, like Ronda Rousey or something like

that. It wasn't that. You were just literally watching a former man beat up women who never had the the benefit of 30 years plus of testosterone in their body what do you think the solution should be then i don't know but i was fascinated by watching the the mob come after me for that one yeah i was like you this is this is adorable but what was fascinating about it was here's something that I – I mean I'm not a real expert in physiology or endocrinology, but I'm a martial arts expert. And I've been doing it my whole life. Like I know the difference.

I've trained with women world champions and watched them get mauled by men who are not very good. It's just a fact. especially when it comes to striking. There's more of a gap in jiu-jitsu, or the gap rather closes in jiu-jitsu because skill and technique take precedent over physical strength. But God damn it, when it comes to striking, you could get a man who's been doing it for six months but just happens to have a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber and just knows how to hit things hard. And he'll fuck a woman up.

It's not good. Especially when it comes to kickboxing and kicking and punching. There's so many advantages. And to say that those advantages are immediately cut out of the picture as soon as you transition to being a woman. And within two years you should be able to fight women in a cage and soon as you transition to being a woman and within two years you should be able to fight women in a cage and not tell them that you're a woman i was like this is insanity yeah so that was the that was the big mob that came after me i think it's interesting that in this because it is pitting people who would call themselves feminist against

transgender activists and it's basically women are being lost in the mix so you can't say certain things like on what planet would it be okay for someone who is born male to fight a woman but in this case because this person who's born male identifies as female you can't call that into question it and it also there was a real problem in texas the other way where they're they're what they were doing is being prejudiced against trans people to the point where they wouldn't let a girl transitioning to being a boy wrestle with boys yeah they made her wrestle with girls while she was taking testosterone yeah it's like you guys are out of your fucking mind like you you're not even recognizing that she wants to compete with boys, which is a disadvantage for her or him now. Let him compete with boys because this is a different thing.

But then even then, a lot of boys are saying, well, look, I'm not taking testosterone. I just have testosterone. What if her testosterone is higher than my testosterone because she's taking exogenous testosterone? This is kind of crazy. Yeah. There's a kind of crazy yeah it's there's a lot of new ground that's going on here my concern as a martial arts expert is when you are using ideology to push this this progressive notion that you, a trans woman is exactly the same as a woman and you're getting women beat the fuck up because of it.

And this is what I felt. This is what I saw. And they wouldn't have to be hard for like a year or two, but then it all went away. What's the worst thing they said about you? I don't know. I didn't read it. I didn't read it.

I read a little bit of it and then I was like, I really didn't even hurt my feelings. Yeah. Cause I was like, it's just so stupid. It's like, do you know a woman who's got a hand that looks like that yeah find one find one because if i took estrogen i'd still have these and that's not fair yeah it's just not i don't care i don't care what anybody says it's just not i mean even a woman with big hands they're

not that big they're not like brock lesnar's hands is that there's a difference there's a fucking difference yeah there's a difference in thenar's hands. There's a difference. There's a fucking difference. Yeah. There's a difference in the shape of the jaw. There's a difference in, there's so many differences in men to women. And there's so many women that used to be men that transitioned to being women that are now dominating these sports. And these women feel like they're being fucked over. Like weightlifting. There was this Australian weightlifter who's a trans woman who's competing as a woman

and is fucking breaking records left and right. And everybody's like, this is crazy. She's an inspiration. No, she's a guy. She used to be a guy and now she's breaking

these women's records. Like, what are we doing? This is crazy. Yeah. But to play devil's advocate, Please do. Didn't Fallon Fox get beaten by Ashley Evan Smith? Yeah.

Yeah, because she sucks. That's really what it is. Ashley Evan Smith is good. Okay. She's so good. Listen, there's a lot of women that would beat a lot of men. Yeah. There's a lot of women who are not taking anything who would beat a lot of men.

And it's happened. Jermaine Durandamy, who was a super high-level women's MMA fighter, won the 145-pound world title, beat Holly Holm. She fought a man in a kickboxing bout and knocked him out. It's because she's a fucking beast. She's really good and really technical, super strong, and just much better than a guy who wasn't on her level. But she's just super exceptional.

But there's also women who fought men who were world champions who got knocked out. There was a woman from, god damn it, she was a female boxer from Holland. Her name escapes me right now. She was a woman that they were always trying to match her up with Christy Martin back when Christy Martin, the coal miner's daughter, was a famous, god damn it, why can't I remember her name? But she was an elite female boxer and she got knocked out by a man. It was ugly.

And the guy she knocked out, the guy who knocked her out really wasn't very good. He just clanged her on the jaw and KO'd her. But it was disturbing to watch. But somehow it wasn't disturbing when Jermaine Durand and me knocked out the guy. Then it was like, yeah, go girl. when Jermaine Durand to me knocked out the guy. Then I was like, yeah, go girl. You're always going to have people that are higher level skill.

And Ashley Evans-Smith, who's competed successfully in the UFC, she's very tough. And she beat Fallon Fox. I'm not against Fallon Fox fighting women that want to fight her. I'm not against that. I'm not against women fighting men. I'm not against Fallon Fox fighting women that want to fight her. I'm not against that. I'm not against women fighting men.

I'm not a man. I'm not against people riding bulls. I'm not against people bungee jumping. You should be able to do whatever the fuck you want. But don't pretend that you're exactly the same as a biological woman. Why the fuck do we have tests then? What is a chromosome? What are genetics?

What is it? Is it all, we're just going to give it all away for ideology? And what about women? This idea of being completely progressive and looking at things and promoting equality, that's wonderful. But are you promoting equality for women? What about the women? What about a woman like you? What about a woman who's slight and thin? What are you supposed to

do? Yeah. How much do you weigh? I'm not going to tell you. You're very thin. I'm thin though. Yeah. Let's pretend you're in the 105 pound weight class. Do you feel like you can compete with 105 pound man? No. That seems ridiculous, right? Well, it seems to me that we have to accept the fact that there's some physical differences when the consequences are being gravely injured. And this is what martial arts are all about. I'm trying to hurt you. And I shouldn't have natural physical advantages that come from having a Y chromosome and 30 plus years of testosterone in my body. That just seems to be obvious to me. And I didn't understand why,

but that was a hill that I was ready to die on. I was like, you guys can fuck off. And good for you for that. But you see that they've kind of left you alone now, right? Because I do this. Because I can say things like this about it. Because it makes sense. And because when other people hear about it

that are rational people they go what what's happening wait a minute that's a guy she was a guy for 30 years like that's not right and the vast majority of people who even support trans rights including friends of mine who are trans were with me on this they're like yeah that's crazy have you heard the term turf am i uh surf and turf no turf as in t-e-r-f is trans exclusionary radical feminist so this is a new slur that's being used against women who will say trans women are not women because they were not born women wow trans exclusionary radical feminist so you would kind of be a turf in this situation because you're advocating for women and safety of women and saying that people who are born male but identifies female are not the same as people who are born female yes but that doesn't

mean that i'm discriminatory no but it's it's a word that they use to try and discredit you good luck have fun with that i don't care see this is the problem but the thing about this is i don't care because i really don't have any hate in my heart and i don't have any discrimination in my heart like i don't think most of us do well i can't speak for everybody some do but some do i'm sure i'm sure if you were trying to look if you have a thousand people and a hundred of those people are a fucking asshole to you, it's going to feel like a lot of people. So if you're a trans person and you're – I mean I've seen horrific things written to trans people online. I've seen it.

I've seen it. I understand there's real discrimination. But I understand that you have to understand – you have to appreciate who your actual allies and people who are rational people who actually care about you and who disagree with you on one very particular thing and this is the only place where I disagree it's combat sports and it's because it's my area of expertise yeah I've been doing it since I was a kid like you can't tell me that there's not differences. I've watched men and women fight my whole life. I know there's a difference.

And I know from talking to endocrinologists and people who are experts in the human anatomy that there's just physiological differences that are insurmountable. They just are. I've seen men and women hit the bag. It's a very different thing. Yeah. I mean, I get where people are coming from, the people who are upset by this, because I think by acknowledging someone, that someone was not born the sex that they identify as,

it's almost like saying, pointing out to them that they're different. But they are different. Well, yeah. They are different. But I can see how that can be upsetting for someone who identifies as the opposite sex. Yeah. You know what? I can see how it's upsetting if you're short and you want to identify as being tall.

What if I wanted to pretend that I was seven feet tall? And you'd be like, Joe, you're 5'8". Are you an asshole? Why are you saying I'm a 5'8"? But you are. So if I say you're a trans woman, which means you were born a man, you have a Y chromosome, you're like, well, you're a piece of shit. How of shit how you pointing that out well that's what you are yeah it's not that you're negative are you are people who are dwarves are is that is it evil to say that a dwarf is a dwarf

or a little person or whatever whatever phrase you want to use are we supposed to acknowledge that there's an issue like if someone is born with a handicap Are we supposed to acknowledge that there's an issue? Like if someone is born with a handicap, are you supposed to, is that a fact? Are you allowed to discuss it as a fact? If you have autism, am I allowed to bring up the fact that you are on the spectrum or am I supposed to ignore it? Yeah. Is it discrimination if you talk about reality? If someone has a deformity, are you allowed to discuss it or is it discrimination to discuss reality? Because what are we doing with our language? What are we doing with the way we describe the actual things that exist in the world?

And if we're not describing them in accurate terms because we're trying to somehow or another stop people from getting hurt feelings, what are these feelings based on? These delusional perceptions of reality. And feelings based on? These delusional perceptions of reality? And why are we reinforcing these delusional perceptions of reality? Because it seems to me that this kind of language and this kind of exclusionary, the inability to use certain words and the inability to describe things accurately, correctly, and in many cases, scientifically, it hurts everybody. Yeah, I agree with that. I don't think facts themselves are hateful.

I think people who use facts to justify discrimination, that's where the problem is. And that's where the efforts should be going. Because when you start to deny facts, where does that leave you? Where do you draw the line in that case? Absolutely. But I think there's something that's kind of cool about it, that there are trans people. And what's cool about it is that the world is weird, you know? And I'm not happy that they get a lot of hate, but I'm kind of happy that they exist. I wish they could just be women. I wish you could just like hit a switch and you really wish you were born a woman.

Bam, you're a woman. But I suspect that even if you could do that, some people would rather just be trans. Some people would like, like there's a lot of people that I know that are trans and also have dicks. Yeah. And they want to keep the dick. Yeah. And they're like, okay, like what's going on here? And you know that you're transphobic if you're a straight heterosexual male and you're

not willing to date a trans woman with a dick? But you know what it is. It's actually a sexual preference. For men who will date trans women who is retaining their penis, that's what it's called in the literature, if they decide not to get surgery, it's actually a particular sexual preference. For the people that are attracted to that particular trans woman. It's called gynandromorphophilia whoa someone tell jim norton um nothing wrong with that either no nothing yeah nothing wrong with that either do what you do but this is the thing the difference

between a man and a woman a trans man a trans woman and then someone who could actually be a woman who transitions. I think we're going to get to a point within, you know, whether it's 100 years or 500 years, where we can use things like the future version of CRISPR or whatever comes down the line next, some scientific innovation that's going to allow people to literally transition. Yeah. I think it's going to happen. Yeah. And when that happens, I suspect they're going to say that word again.

What was the word? Gynandromorphophilia. It's going to be a bunch of those. It's going to be a bunch of people like, nah, I'd rather just stay a chick with a dick. I'll take it. Yeah. Well, gynandromorphophilia is the preference for male to female people who have retained their penis.

And this fucking go for it. Yeah. Nothing wrong. It's all good. It's all good. It's all good. It's only when you tell other men that you have to conform to this. I think that's where the problem is.

I think people should be allowed to be into what they're into. Yes. And the idea that you're transphobic and I've seen this. I've seen articles written where they're shitting on men that are not willing to date women

with penises. They call it the... No, sorry, the cotton ceiling is the other way around when it's a male to female person and women don't want to date them. Lesbians don't want to date them because they have a penis. What do they call it? The cotton ceiling. Because it's like the glass ceiling except it has to do with underwear. Whoa. Jesus Christ.

to do with underwear whoa jesus christ so lesbians who don't want to date trans women because they still have penises yeah what a wonderful world we live in i like it i like that this world is weird i do yeah this is where i think I get why people would see what I've said and think that it's transphobic. I get like who I am. I get that it's a problem. I get just looking at me as a problem. I mean, I'm, I'm a cage fighting commentator,

you know, I'm a dirty standup comedian. This, I mean, I seem like I would be your enemy, but people shouldn't assume right like you're your own person so you might look a certain way yeah but that's just what people do it's the same way a guy looks at a chick with a dick and goes yikes what do we got going on here i mean just

i just think as me as an individual as a human, one thing I like about it is I like things that are weird. I like things that defy the standard definitions. I'm the same. I think it's good. I think it's more interesting. It's far more interesting. Yeah. It's far more interesting when you talk to a neuroscientist who wears a Playboy t-shirt, right? You're a weirdo. Yeah. Do you like it? Yeah, it's cool. It's a cool cover. You're a weirdo. I am a weirdo. Yeah, for sure.

Do you find that relates to your sense of humor too though? Because my sense of humor is really dry and I feel that's part of the way I look at the world and why I appreciate the world the way it is.

Oh yeah, for sure. I embrace the weirdness. I really do. I love it. I love that things are strange. I do. I think it's interesting. I really do. I love it. I love that things are strange. I do. I think it's interesting. I really do. I think everything's interesting. I mean, and I try to cultivate that. I really do. I go out of my way to try to look at things with fresh eyes, especially because I smoke a lot of pot. And whenever i do that i kind of

always have a new way of looking at like oh i never even thought about it that way but that's one of the things that i really like about marijuana and i try i've tried to explain that to people that don't smoke pot i got a conversation with ted nugent about that and one of the things because he had this perception that people smoke pot are lazy and they're ne'er-do-wells i'm like dude i can't have enough jobs. I have so many, I do so many fucking things. You're super high functioning. I'm always doing something.

I'm not lazy. But I get, the benefit that I get out of it is a benefit that is not often, it's not often promoted. And that benefit is there's something good about being nervous. There's something good about what people call paranoia. There's something good about heightened perspective that is brought upon by psychedelics or by marijuana, where you are forced to re-examine what you've taken for granted. And that's what I like about it.

And so what I like about one of the things that I like about Smoke and Pot, besides the fact that I believe it makes me more compassionate, it instills a better sense of community, it makes me more friendly and more loving, and it definitely does that. But it also makes me look at things with fresh eyes and appreciate the weirdness the weird like i genuinely love it when i see like some girl like do you know bailey jay is uh yeah trans woman with a giant dick she's got pictures of her dick like i love it is jamie gonna pull one up right now i don don't think he can, we'll get kicked off YouTube But I love it, I like the fact that it's real Doesn't bother me, I'm happy

I think it's fun Are you a Gynangermorphophilic? No, no I'm not, but I like the fact that they exist I do That's acceptance And I like the fact that people like them And I like the fact that it makes certain people happy If it makes them happy

Or people that are attracted to them happy or people that are attracted to them happy i really do like it i don't i don't like definitions i don't like i don't like restrictions you know so where people would get an incorrect assumption is my radical stance against this trans woman fighting other women because I recognize it as being unfair. And not. Well, because there's suppression of the debate as well. Yes. It's one thing if you could talk about it openly. Well, it's also something that I'm an expert in.

So I'm like, stop. Don't don't don't try to compare this to fucking tennis. Yeah. Because even in tennis, it wasn't fair. But this is a different thing. It's a radically different thing. It's interesting because I heard you talk about this. I don't know if it was your interview with Josh Barnett,

but when you first get into the cage, you don't know what the other person is going to be like until you start fighting. And I just imagine if you go in and you don't know that someone was born male, how that's a very big disadvantage I think there's a propensity for violence that exists in the mind of a man that I just don't know if it's the same in most women I just think I don't know how much of that I don't know if you turn me into a woman how much of that like i don't know if you turn me into a woman how much of that you would squeeze

out i don't know but i know there's a switch that men have because i've seen it go off i've seen i've seen i've probably seen more people get fucked up in real life than 99.9 percent of people that have ever lived other than like, you know, people lived in Roman times and shit. Yeah. People get chopped up by swords, but people in modern time, like in terms of like fisticuffs, people getting head kicked and beaten down with elbows. I probably seen more of that than almost anyone that's ever lived.

It's probably a small group of people, Like a thousand people on the planet that have seen as many people get fucked up personally as I have. So I, you date a chunk. You get a sense of what you're seeing. You get a sense of, and you understand there's a, there's a, there's,

there's a technical violence that women are capable of, for sure. I mean, especially like extreme examples like Chris Cyborg, who's like super violent. Yeah. Or when Holly Holm head kicked Ronda Rousey and then hammer fisted her while she was unconscious. Super violent, but also very, a technical violence.

And then there's an extreme over the top masculine violence that I've seen that's even more ferocious. There's something to it that is another level. And this is not saying that men are better than women. This is just I'm saying there's a thing that men do. There's a reason why men cause all wars. Men cause all wars. Men cause all wars. Women aren't fucking suiting up and going into battle and trying to conquer as a giant, you know, million strong group of women soldiers invading a foreign army. No, this is not happening.

This is a male behavior. It's testosterone. It is. And it's also there's something about males, this switch, this violent switch that exists. And it exists in a very dark way. Women are capable of shooting people and stabbing people and doing all these things. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that.

But it does not happen in the same numbers that it happens with men. It just doesn't. And I think that this is something that also has to be taken into consideration when you're talking about men versus women. It's a different thing. And people who don't think it's a different thing have probably never been punched in the face by a guy. Yeah. Or seen guys punch guys in the face or been around it enough where you realize it's a different thing. I've seen some awesome women fights, awesome women fights, amazing, super technical, even very violent. But goddamn,

there's a difference. It's just not the same thing. Yeah, no, I would definitely agree with that. And most people would. But if in today's climate, in certain circles, that would be considered transphobic, or maybe even sexist. Well, there's also this narrative that women, because they need to be like men on some level, women have to be as strong as men. And I've seen this where they will publish pieces saying women are as strong as men. Get out of here with that. Physically strong as men.

But that's not even true. It's not true. Well, it's not only is it not true, you can demonstrate it. Like scientifically it's not true. You look at the data in terms of what men have lifted what what they can do like this is this guy this woman who used to be a man who's now competing in weightlifting in australia like everybody's going crazy over this one it's fucking crazy yeah it doesn't make any sense that they're allowing this like this is so nonsensical. If you want to have the transgender

Olympics, go for it. Do that. But to try to pretend, until we come up with some sort of a way, like with CRISPR or whatever we talked about before, where you can actually turn a man into a woman, turn a woman into a man, until it's like real clean, we look at it, we go, yep, we just did the chromosome test. You've got a Y chromosome now. And you've erased 30 years of testosterone. And, you know, a man now is built like you. Right? Yeah.

Then we're good. Then we're good. Now it's an actual woman. Yeah. Until then, man, you're dealing with some hardcore variables. And to be in denial of those variables is silly and i'm gonna i'm gonna stand against it every time because i think it's i see what it is i mean this is it's like a religious ideology you're you're purposely ignoring facts do you feel like most people in the

industry agree with you or how do they feel about it yeah oh, yeah. Oh, fuck yeah. Oh, yeah. The people who don't is a minor group. And they're all like super progressive, left wing, left leaning. And some of them were scared to talk about it. I was going to say, yeah, because other people aren't as vocal. Well, they just didn't want to get the blowback. That's all it is. But in terms of like fighters, it was like 100%. I mean, Ashley Evan Smith is a fucking beast for taking that fight and even tougher for winning.

But then again, she went into the UFC. She's in a UFC level fighter. Yeah. Which is there's a big difference, you know. And what she was – I mean, if you look at like the caliber of competition that she's fought guys like raquel pennington or girls excuse me like raquel pennington sorry raquel and look at who fallon fox was fighting when she was fighting you know lower level competition that's a giant leap between raquel pennington and someone who is on these amateur circuits and raquel Pennington and someone who is on these amateur circuits. And Raquel Pennington beat Ashley Evans-Smith.

Crazy fight. Submitted her with a bulldog choke with like one second to go. We're screaming. It was nuts. Covered in blood. It was fucking chaos, right? But this is like super elite world championship level fighting. That's the difference.

It's different, yeah. Yeah, it's just fucking different. You know? Yeah, so there was a lot of people that supported me. But I knew I was right. You know? You know that other people are secretly agreeing with you. Not even secretly.

They just didn't want to talk about it publicly. It wasn't that it was a secret. You know, there was no people that were coming up to me, disagreeing with me. Trans people were agreeing with me. Trans people that I'm agreeing with me trans people that i'm friends with were like that shit is crazy that bitch is out of her fucking mind it was funny and also in the long run over many many conversations about it people realize okay

i see your perspective like you're not not discriminatory no it's just about combat sports and even about weightlifting it's like come on man imagine if you're a discriminatory. No. It's just about combat sports. And even about weightlifting. It's like, come on, man. Imagine if you're a woman and all your life you've been fucking power cleaning. Through the force of will and determination and your focus and discipline. And then some trans woman comes in and just, this bitch is lifting 100 pounds more than you're ever going to lift. And you're like, well, what the fuck? This isn't fair.

Those poor girls in Texas that had to wrestle that girl because they're discriminatory in the opposite way and they won't recognize that this trans girl is a boy or this trans boy is a boy. And they can get injured too. Fuck yeah. Literally, you're allowing a girl to take steroids. That's what you're doing.

You're saying one girl can take steroids because she thinks she's a boy, and we don't think she's a boy, so we'll let her take steroids. It's like, why are you letting her take steroids? Why are you letting her take testosterone? Do you know how old that girl was? I believe 17. Or that trans boy? Okay.

She won the States two years in a row. Whoa. Shocker. won the states two years in a row wow shocker but you know by taking those by taking testosterone too he's sterilizing himself yeah which is crazy at that age yeah um not to say specifically of that person but just in general well as a neuroscientist in your understanding of the frontal lobe and the development of human yeah. It gets, you realize like your decision-making capability is not fully formed. Not till you're almost 30. So, I mean.

That's when people should vote. That's when they should, that's when they should make any sort of important decision. But it's crazy because do you think a 17-year-old or even like a, I don't know, even 21-year-old can decide if they want to be sterile for life? No. No. If you gave me a chance at 17 to get a vasectomy, I might have done it.

Now I'm happy I have kids. But it's an irreversible decision, which is why it gets weird, right? It's like if you decide to sterilize yourself with testosterone, is there any coming back from that? If you start taking estrogen again, will your cycle kick back in? No. Well, once you start taking cross-sex will your cycle kick back in? No.

Well, once you start taking cross-sex hormones, no. No? No. And it's amazing because parents are saying, well, you know, if that's the decision they want to make, then they should make that decision. And they're okay with it. What's interesting, too, is the language that we use and that people use in the media now. Like there was a story about a woman who just gave birth. Oh.

Tell me more, actually, because I thought I was thinking of something but i think it's something okay she used to be a woman she beat she was transitioning to being a man and she got pregnant okay but became a full man after she gave birth had her breasts removed right the whole deal right and it was celebrated yeah it was celebrated as this man gave birth but it breasts removed right the whole deal right and it was celebrated yeah it was celebrated as this man gave birth but it was well not only that she i don't think she breastfed which shouldn't be celebrated like like there's massive amounts of evidence that um breastfeeding is super positive because that that look at that Full beard holding a baby. So clearly taking the testosterone again, if not taking it while the baby was in the womb. And I'm sure five years after having a child as a woman.

What? Transgender man gives birth to baby five years after having a child as a woman. Okay. So she had a child as a woman, and then she got pregnant again as a man. That's what they're saying. All right. Okay.

What does that mean? What's going on there? Imagine if you were an alien. So I guess it isn't impossible to get pregnant, but if you're straight from pubertal blockers straight onto cross-sex hormones, your body hasn't even really developed. So in that case...

So as a grown-up, it's less likely that you become sterile? Is that the case? I think it depends on how long. I'm not an endocrinologist, but I think it has to do with how long you've been on the hormones and probably how old you were when you started. Right. But in this case, I mean, I've seen cases too and probably how old you were when you started. Right.

But in this case, I mean, I've seen cases too where trans women will breastfeed, but they're, and the doctors say this is an amazing thing, but they're taking hormones. So basically those hormones are going to the baby when they're breastfeeding. Boy. I mean, I even feel bad saying- That seems like child endangerment.ment i know i feel bad saying this

right now but why i feel it feels like i'm placing judgment i guess on you should be placing judgment well you were talking about something that's publicly projected well this is something that's in the news they chose to make this they chose to be there whether cameras were taking pictures of them they're proclaiming this that the other side isn't being presented to i think that's part of the problem what's the other side the things that we're saying yes well this is what so what are the other thought what is the other side well the one side of being that is progressive and if you identify as a woman and you have a child then you should you know raise that child as if no different from any other woman but she

doesn't identify as a woman she identifies as a man so not this person the person i was talking about who was breastfeeding male to female you can breastfeed male to female oh oh wait a minute but that's not his kid or her kid oh boy boy. We need new words. This is why those gender pronouns, Jordan Peterson was wrong. This is why we need all these separate gender pronouns. All 72 of them. Well, here's the other thing.

This male transgender male obviously still likes dudes. The one we just saw? Yeah. Cause he got pregnant by a guy. Yeah. So stay a chick bro i don't know what to tell you do whatever you want to do but you know we should probably take into consideration the idea that maybe this isn't the best thing for that child to be subjected to hormones no that's that's the bottom line I think whether a parent is trans or not doesn't have a bearing on their ability to parent. So while that trans man was pregnant, did he continue his testosterone therapy is the question.

Mm-hmm. Right? That's the question. Woo! This one says no. That's how they got pregnant. Oh, so they backed off to have a baby on purpose. No, they got off the testosterone for health reasons and then got pregnant.

Oh. That's this particular case. Health reasons? Yeah. But I thought it was natural and awesome. It's good for you. That's the other thing too, right? If it is natural, why do you have to have synthetic hormones injected into your body that are not endogenous?

Like they're not even supposed to be in your body. This is so crazy. We live in such a bizarro world. Seeing a guy with a beard who's fully pregnant with a hairy chest is so fucking odd. I'd assume he has a hairy chest. It's also, I mean, it goes against people who say that gender is a social construct. Why do you need to take testosterone then to be the opposite sex? Well, this is one of

the weirder things that the argument that i had um about with one person online where they said um about fallon fox they said she's always been a woman and i said even when she was having sex with a woman and got her pregnant and she said yes even then i'm like we're done we're done here we can't we're in make-believe land now. Well, what does that mean? You were a woman when you were having sex with a woman. So why not just stay that woman who has sex with women? I think it's because people want to have sympathy, right?

And so it's kind of like that's a nice story to tell. Yes. Even if it's not true. But that's the problem is that you're not dealing with reality. But that's the problem, is that you're not dealing with reality. You're into this weird fantasy land that opens you up to massive amounts of criticism from people that might be discriminatory. Instead of saying, yeah, this is problematic and weird and strange, and the whole thing is weird. Instead of saying that, saying, no, she's always been a woman.

Well, the fuck does that mean? Because it's such a blanket statement, too. Right. But it's a wonderful thing to do to shut down all rational critique of the situation. It's a wonderful way to do it. She's always been a woman like, really? Well, that's the only way they can win too though.

Cause if you actually enter into a conversation, you have to actually think about your position and actually think of ways to argue with the other person. And that takes effort. Yes. So it's a lot easier just to simply say they're wrong and you can't argue with someone's lived experience. It doesn't just take effort.

It's also an acknowledgment of the oddity of the situation. You have to take into account, if you're not committed to one side or the other and you're looking at it for what it really is, you really have to go, wow, it's so strange. Be open-minded be accepting be completely embracing of all oddities all strange different variables of the the the broad spectrum of human sexuality be open to all of it yeah but also be aware of how fucking weird it is because it is weird it's not you don't have to have hate in your heart to recognize that it's strange to

see a guy with a beard breastfeeding right yeah you know or fully pregnant it's fucking strange yeah i mean it just is but i think if you're a curious person too you know you want to learn more and you want to ask questions, but like in the climate now You can't even do that. Even if your heart is in a good place Yeah, but it's hard for people to know that your heart is in a good place It's just part of the problem when you know, you don't fall in line with the accepted narrative people think well Oh, it must be because you are Conservative or you're transphobic or homophobic or something wrong

where you're not on board with the way people are thinking today. You're stuck in the past. Yeah. And it's... On the wrong side of history. That's a good one. But it's just, you know, it's hard to fully express your feelings on nuanced issues. Yeah.

Well, it takes effort, right? It takes time and you have to actually think about what is your position and you actually have to look at the facts and then have a nuanced position because I don't think most of these issues, you can't just simply go with one side or the other across the board or simply go with what sounds nice. There's usually a lot of other stuff underlying that that needs to kind of be hashed out. nice. There's usually a lot of other stuff underlying that that needs to kind of be hashed out. What is your transition into academia from academia to the, you know, doing what you do now and being able to write things and do podcasts and be free of that sort of, what has that been like?

The process or what, what led me to do it? Both the process. What you were described, what led you to do it? Okay. So I just finished my PhD last year. In the last two years, I realized that academia changed a lot. In two years? And I would say in the four years I did my PhD, it changed a lot. So when I started, there were certain topics that were a little taboo, but you could still ask questions. And I had planned to stay in academia and continue being a sex researcher. I love sex research. But I realized as time went on that you couldn't ask important questions anymore. And especially when it comes to gender, sex differences and gender dysphoria. Every single mainstream news piece in left-leaning outlets was saying young kids should transition. That's the best thing for them.

And so you'd see all this coverage of young kids who had transitioned to the opposite sex. And their parents were elated. The kids were doing so well, apparently. But from a scientific perspective, that's not what the research shows. As I said, most kids will outgrow their feelings. So it's best to just wait and see. And so I wrote an op-ed about that. And at the time, you know, I wrote it and I sat on it for probably about six months trying to decide whether I should really try and get it published because I knew that people were going to be really upset, even though I was just talking about the scientific

literature. And I asked my colleagues, what do you think? And they said to me, I said, should I wait until I have tenure to publish this? And they said, even if you have tenure, it's not going to protect you nowadays. So, you know, I was lucky. My mentors have always been very supportive of looking at facts and looking at the truth. And don't worry about whether it's politically incorrect or not. Just say when you do a study, just present what you found. Don't worry about how people are going to take it. Just say, when you do a study, just present what you found. Don't worry about how people are going to take it. But not everyone is like that, especially even in the hard sciences now. If you publish, I mean, it won't even get published now if you find things that are controversial because journals don't want to have to deal with that. The institutions don't want to have to deal with that. So I made the decision to publish that op-ed.

And then from there, I said, well, I'm going to see where this journalism thing can take me. And so now I say whatever I want well that sort of behavior and that thought process is such on their their side is such a weakening of the foundation of critical thinking and the it also comes at the same time as these platforms like podcasting and YouTube that allows a person like you or like Jordan Peterson to now disconnect and have a far larger audience. Although it is scary, there is quite a bit of censorship going on with some of those platforms. With YouTube? Yeah. Yeah, YouTube likes to, they have the cute thing they do, they demonetize things. They'll probably demonetize this podcast for sure.

Yeah. Right? Most likely. If they even let you upload it after. Oh, they'll let us upload it. Okay. But the demonetization, especially since you criticize YouTube, as soon as you criticize YouTube, that's like one of the best ways to get demonetized from one of their videos

is to criticize them. Yeah. It's fucking squirrely. They also make people, like if you're subscribed, they don't tell people when videos get posted. Something like that, right? They do some weird shit. I don't pay attention. Just I upload it and keep moving.

But I have friends who are, their main source of income was YouTube and videos and advertising. And for them, them was a disaster. Like people that were making a lot of money. And then all of a sudden that money was cut down to 30% of what it used to be. And with no, no clear guidelines. The problem with the guidelines is even if you like, say, if we have a video and they just decide that they don't like the video, you can't really protest it. You can protest it. it and but then they review it and then they uphold their initial ruling and they don't tell you why yeah there's no they don't say well hey you called someone a queer or you did this or no no they just say yeah this is how it is and it's subjective yeah well it's a problem with being a monopoly and they're not a monopoly in the fact that there's not other video platforms, but they are certainly the largest by far.

In terms of user-uploaded video platforms, it's not even a close second, which is kind of weird. It's amazing that they've done it. There's nothing remotely like it. I know a bunch of people thought about building one, and I've been contacted by people that are starting up a new one. They want me to join that. I'm like, good luck. Good luck. I mean, YouTube's so far ahead.

It's like, how do you catch up to them? And I don't think they're evil by any stretch of the imagination. And I had a conversation with someone about it pretty recently where she was describing that they're using crude tools. And this is part of the problem with what is being deemed as censorship. They're trying to root out hate speech, and they're doing so with crude tools that will eventually, through AI, get better. Is that it, though? Or is it that they're trying to shut down

any sort of dissenting points of view? I don't know. You know, I think they definitely lean hard left. They definitely do. So does Google. They lean hard left. That was proven by the Damore paper and the, you know, how it was received the Damore memo. Actually, you know what? Cause I, I was doing YouTube for a bit and then I stopped just because i unfortunately didn't have time because my writing is like my number one thing but i had one video that the minute it went up i was talking about science on gender dysphoria it got demonetized literally like 20 minutes and i thought you know i know where what my intentions are and it's it's really unsettling when that happens it, it should be because you're not doing anything hateful. No.

And what they're doing is they're trying to make subjects much less attractive to discuss. And who's doing it? I mean, is it doing it through crude tools or is someone looking at it and flagging it and deciding that this is not something that they want to be involved with advertising. And in their defense, a lot of this got started off by people that were really doing fucked up things on YouTube. And they had to respond and they had to figure out a way to eliminate that stuff from their platform. And I think once you start censoring, the tendency is to continue and to expand. The tendency is not to back off of that censorship.

You're like, you know what? We're just going to allow all across deniers and racists and make your videos. Hey, this is YouTube. This is the Wild West, baby. Yeah. They're not going to do that because they have advertisers and there's a significant amount of revenue that they get from that. But they don't actually end the conversation, though, because people just get upset and they take the conversation. They may not be on YouTube, but the people are still talking about these things yeah but they're not on youtube

as long as they're not on youtube they don't give a shit like yeah you're not on youtube good luck with that conversation on vimeo you know or wherever you're gonna go yeah it's um it's it's odd but it's also i i've i love it i love that there's these disguise i love that i love part of me even likes the fact that things are being censored i really do really i find it fascinating i don't i feel like the the argument is fascinating because i think first of all i think censorship clearly causes that i think when you push against something, there's a natural reaction. That reaction is to bolster your defenses and fire back up. And I think there's certainly some of that going on.

You can't really quiet ideas entirely, but you do expose your intentions and you expose these blind spots that are what we've been discussing all day. There's these political ideology blind spots that people have, these ideological holes that they have in the way they look at things. Well, I think the question is, do you want to solve the problem or are you trying to just be successful as a business? If you want to solve the problem, I don't think suppressing speech

and shutting down people who are genuinely just trying to ask questions and have conversations, I don't think that's going to solve things. I don't think they're trying to solve any problems. I think they're trying to make a ton of money, and they're also very liberal, and they think the right thing to do is to suppress certain ideologies they deem harmful or hate speech. You know, I had a conversation with a woman who's a YouTube exec.

She was telling me that Douglas Murray and Sam Harris, they had this podcast that they did online. And some guy put it up in his playlist. And he got a community guideline strike for having it in his playlist. And I said, how is that and she said it's hate speech i said it's not hate speech i heard that podcast yeah and not only is it not hate speech you didn't watch it she didn't listen to it like she had no idea what the fuck it was but she just like like confidently said it to me like i was gonna just shut up like you're out of your fucking mind you don't even know what you're talking about this is hilarious but it was a person out of pretty high level over there yeah so it's interesting to see

that like okay well this is the kind of a lack of critical thinking that we're discussing this is the kind of blind spot that we're discussing that you feel like you could just say that instead of appreciate that this is two intellectuals discussing something that's very complex and that is it was about immigration and about islam and those are two things that people don't want to hear you know they just like go those two things are off limits unless you're pro-islam or pro-immigration you better shut the fuck up or we're going to demonetize you and that that kind of censorship is fascinating to me because it's not effective. It just makes people go, hey. And then it makes the people on the YouTube side get defensive and it makes them double

down and you're seeing that. It makes things worse. Yeah. You see that now. I mean, you see it with many people. It's a weird time for ideas. Yeah. How do you feel about being part of the IDW? The International Dork Web?

I'm the least mentioned, happily the least mentioned person in that group. I'm very happy about that. I don't like being in any groups. What did Groucho Marx once say? I don't want to be a part of any club that would have me. It's just, look, I'm very happy to be able to have a platform where I can have people like you on or any of those people, whether it's Brett Weinstein or Eric Weinstein. Stein, sorry guys brett weinstein eric they got after harvey everybody got real yeah i've spoken to brett he's really sweet he's great yeah and uh his wife heather is amazing as well he'll be on actually the next season of wrong speak oh cool yeah heather hyang his wife is amazing too she is yeah and they were

on together um and sam harris is a good friend and i love that guy he's a fascinating person and as is jordan and uh look i don't agree with a lot of what ben shapiro says but he's a super nice guy and i really like him you know and that's that's you saw that thing that happened with that actor mark was his name mark duplass is that his name got in trouble for tweeting that uh you know oh I saw that yeah very nice and reasonable person yeah yeah it's um it's a fun time Ben is really nice too he's a really nice guy you know I like him a lot this uh internet whatever it is the dark web thing that's all Eric Eric Weinstein's idea was to name this and label it. He loves all that shit.

He loves all that cloak and dagger stuff. He gets a kick out of it. But he makes some very good points, and he's a brilliant, brilliant guy. He is. And this idea that we're all joined together. I mean, we all went out and we had a big dinner together like a bunch of dorks, and we all got together, and we're like this little club. And it's dorks, and we all got together and we're like this little club.

And it's kind of fun and we're going to do it again. And we're bringing more people in too. We're bringing more people into the dork web. Good. And some people are resentful that they're not a part of the dork web. I'll tell you some names afterwards, but some people contacted Barry Weiss and were upset that they weren't included in the dork web. I loved Barry's column.

It was interesting. Yeah. But the label of it all. I mean, what's interesting is it starts this conversation, right? As to why is it even necessary to have this dark web and what's the function of this dark web and what is the dark web doing really? And there was an article today where someone was calling it problematic and saying that it's mostly right-leaning people, which is absolutely not true.

Sam Harris, very left. Brett Weinstein, fiercely progressive. Eric, very left. I'm way more left than I am right. The very few right-wing ideas that I hold on to, they're very small. The vast majority of my positions on things side with people on the left. Vast majority. Ben Shapiro is very right. But he's reasonable. And he's also a young guy. Conservative, religious. But he's also extremely intelligent and reasonable

he talked to him and he has himself um disavowed some of the things that he said and he's he's himself criticized his own words that he wrote a whole column here's a list of all the stupid things i've ever said online you know and because he's he's you know he's a whole column. Here's a list of all the stupid things I've ever said online, you know, and because he's, he's, you know, he's a very aware guy, very self-aware. I think, um, I think it's important to have discussions. And I think it's important that when people feel like those discussions are being suppressed, that they talk about that. And I think that's what this whole thing is.

Yeah. And I think you're a part of that as well. I was in the column, yeah. We could use you in the dork web. Okay. We need a woman of color. You do. We do.

To prove that you guys aren't all racist. Yeah, I know. It's so much white people. God damn it. I took a 23andMe and I'm hoping I got some black in me. I'm praying. I'm hoping for you too. Plain.

Just give me some. Give me more than 5%. What is it that you have to have? I think you only have to have like one 16th Native American to catch a check in some places. I'm not sure what it is in Canada, but something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you go fishing in Canada, in your first nation, if you have, I don't know what the number is,

but you could bring as many fish as you want. But like if you, like I was fishing in Canada in a place where I could only get one walleye a day. You could only get one. But there was some dude next to me, it was First Nations, homeboy was just pulling them in left and right and sticking them in a bucket, cleaning up.

So you better be hoping on that test then. I'm hoping. i'm hoping hoping and praying i just want to be discriminated against 116th is one great great grandparent oh that's all you need that's all i need somebody come on didn't you say you have chimp in your family too for sure somebody fucked a chimp this is what i think i think if people evolved from lower hominids, right? If that's what happened, if you believe all that evolution nonsense. Yeah, nonsense. No one believes that anymore. It's pseudoscience.

Yeah, it's a bunch of pseudoscience. But I think that somewhere in my ancestry, somebody went back in for one more shot at a chimp when they probably should have. Somebody said, ah, who's going to know? They probably got drunk. Yeah. No judgment. No judgment. Yeah.

And clearly evolution is not a fucking straight, flat plane. Right? It varies. Yeah. Has to. But you can't deny the influence of it. You know, as some people do. Yeah.

Well, I don't know. What do you think about all this dork web stuff? I felt, I mean, the fact that the New York Times covered it gave me a sense of relief. Because sometimes the things I write, I don't feel like the things I write are that controversial or that offensive. But the response I get sometimes I'm surprised. You say this as a journalist, as a journalist, as an intellectual,

as a person who actually understands what you're talking about. Yeah. Especially someone who has studied, especially these certain topics within research. I think I know what I'm talking about. And so when people get really mad, it makes you question where are we going? So the fact that, you know, Barry covered this and that the response was so positive.

I mean, people got mad too. Oh, people got mad at her. She's taking a lot of heat. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. A lot. Yeah. But I feel a little bit more optimistic because it tells me that people get it, that we have

conversations like this and people don't think that we're bigoted or that we're coming from. We have a nefarious agenda. Right. We just want to have conversations and talk about things that aren't being discussed in the mainstream. Yeah, that's where censorship becomes very dangerous. If you do silence a lot of these conversations and right now they're not being silenced, even though they're, they're being demonetized and to a certain extent that is a problem, but the conversation still exists. And as long as they do still exist in the, the vast majority exist in the audio form anyway, and podcasting is the vast majority of the volume of people that are downloading these

kind of conversations. I think it's an incredibly unique time for the distribution of ideas. I don't think there's ever been anything remotely like this in human history. There's never been a time where someone like me can just do something just on a laptop with a webcam and then nine years later, it's this. It's wild. Fucking nuts. And I don't even, I'm aware of it, but I don't even think about it that much, honestly.

I just do it. I was excited to talk to you today. I was looking forward to it. I was excited too. Yay, we did it. I was excited to talk to you today. I was looking forward to it. I was excited too. Hey, we did it. But I don't give it much consideration as far as the impact. Because I think as soon as you do that, it'll slip through your fingers. Like if you think too much about it.

Yeah. Well, I definitely wouldn't say half the shit I've already said today. Right? That's the appeal, though. The appeal is that you and I, I really believe this. If there was no microphone, we probably would never have this conversation because it's too difficult. It would be too weird. Like, you and I are just going to sit down and just talk to each other.

If I just came in and met you and we sat down. It would be weird. Like, you almost have to have this where people could see it to do it because otherwise you'd check your phone i'd check my phone get up and go to the bathroom it's like it would be a normal thing to do but by putting these headphones on and by having this microphone in front of our face we lock in and know that how many million people are going to be watching it oh fuck love fuck love. And it's more every week. It's growing in a weird way, like a fucking mold.

It's amazing. Strange. But this is the only way we'd have this conversation. And it's made me far better at talking to people and understanding conversations and understanding what they are. And also examining my own speech patterns and the way I communicate and getting better at it. I like how you said you started it just because you wanted to talk to people. I think that's what it should be. It should just be that interest in having a conversation.

Well, I used to like doing radio when I was a guest. On certain radio shows, if I was going to go to, you know, Phoenix or something like that and I would go do stand up there, I would have to promote it on the radio in the old days. And I would get there and I would get there early and, you know, smoke a joint beforehand, drink a cup of coffee, get in and start talking shit and having a good time and laughing. I'd be like, that'd be fun to have a radio show, man. You know, just go in there and just talk and have fun. But the problem was to me it was like always the censorship i was like oh you're like you gotta censor yourself then i started doing the opie and anthony show and opie and anthony had a show on you know it was first it was xm then it became serious and and uh then they split up but when i would do that it was opie and anthony and jim norton i was like this is the best

this is so fun and the way they did it credit to them the way they did it was different than any radio show i'd ever been a part of because it was no structure at all they would just bring comics in it would just be me and ari shafir and bill burr and Joey Diaz and all these guys, they would just come in and hang out and talk shit. There was no structure at all. It was just Anthony is such a smart and funny guy, and Opie would sort of run the thing, and Jim was there, and they would just let everybody talk, and I'd be like, this would be amazing.

You could just come in and hang out and have fun. And then I started doing a podcast after that but it was because of that and then anthony did a thing called live from the compound he calls his house the compound and he did like this thing in his basement where he had a green screen and he did his own show and he did karaoke while he's holding a machine gun he's fucking crazy anthony's like a legit gun nut but he had a studio that he built in his basement like with like legitimate equipment and I went oh and that inspired me and that that is literally what started me off to do a podcast is seeing that he had set this up in his basement

and I was like well just fucking just start doing it yeah wow yeah Wow. Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. I feel the wrong speak. The fact that I can see people being mobbed and I can think, okay, I wonder what they're like and I can just ask them. Yeah. Yeah. Like, is that what it's like for you? You see someone you think, I just want to talk to them.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Especially someone in a controversial position like Jordan. Yeah, especially someone in a controversial position like Jordan. When I first met Jordan, it's like when he was just starting to get some attention online. And I wanted to talk to him. I was like, well, what is going on here? And why is everybody so upset at you? And I've never met anyone in all of my life who is so purposely misrepresented by other people than Jordan.

Yeah. I've never seen it before. It's amazing to see intelligent, articulate people clearly lying about his positions and about how, and not even understanding that by doing that, they're strengthening him. And they're strengthening, you're not going to lie to the point where people are going to really think that your position is correct and all these things that Jordan has said that somehow or another you misheard them or the whole world misheard them. You're misrepresenting his positions.

And that just makes all the people that are siding with him realize he's right. It strengthens him. They literally don't understand that they are his publicists. They are helping. They are proving his point. And to the point where he's selling out. He sold out gigantic 5,000 seat theaters. Yeah.

He's selling them out all over the world. Just talking. It's crazy. He's making millions of dollars. Yeah. Because of them being stupid. It's fucking amazing. Yeah.

It's really amazing. And all of it came out of him putting his foot down in opposition to the very same things that you experienced that forced you to leave academia. This misrepresenting of reality that seems to be going. And I think it's fueling the it's certainly fueling the dork web. But on top of that, because people are seeing that they can't trust what they're being told yeah they are um they can't trust what they're being told and they they understand there's other conversation to be had out there there's an article that i tweeted today that was really interesting i was like wow this is crazy. It was talking about long-form podcasts and the ability that long-form podcasts have to allow people to have rational civil discourse.

Instead of just getting on these fucking CNN shows and yelling at each other for three minutes. Or sometimes you'll get a panel where everyone just agrees with each other. Yes. Or the panels are crazy, too where everyone just agrees with each other. Yes. Or the panels are crazy too. How the fuck are you going to have nine people talking at the same time? That is crazy. It's hard to do when I do podcasts with two other people. It's hard.

Well, it's entertainment. But it's not a good way to discuss topics. Long-form conversations are really the only way where you can get a good sense of where someone stands on a position and how they think you know like i get a chance to see like you like and a lot of people are going to get a chance to see you today how you think about things what what your thought process is and if there's holes in that thought process, they get exposed. Yeah. And that's, I think, also with issues that are more complex, you can talk about all the different nuances to that issue.

Because if you just simply have your talking points and you sort of, if you do like a standard interview that's, say, seven minutes long, it's going to be very, very sparse in terms of what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, there's not a single thing we discussed today that wasn't 15 minutes long, at least. Right? Yeah. And you can't really condense that.

I mean, you could condense it down, but you lose a lot of the information. And also you feel like you didn't do it justice. Like, I can't do those panel shows because I feel like there's no way I'm going to be able to do anything justice. There's no room, especially now. Well, people play it up, too. They know that they're there for the entertainment value. So it's more about being upset at what someone's saying than having some real understanding. Right.

It's also about barking out your talking points in as ferocious a manner as you can so you can appear that you're winning. Yeah. Yeah. It's exhausting yeah but you're a nice guy too though you know you're not going to come and attack somebody i definitely don't want to do that that the when i have people on i even someone that i think i'm going to disagree with i just want to i want to see how they think i want even i want and some people get mad they go oh dude you know you morph your opinions based on whoever's on the show. That's not what I do.

But what I do do is I let people talk. And I try to see their point of view. And I try to expand their point of view. So if they say something, I go, oh, so what it is is that this. And I want them to keep going. I want to see the landscape of their thought process. I don't want to see a tiny garden. I don't want to see a little potted plant. I want to see the whole thing. I want to get a sense of why do I disagree with them? Am I fucked up? Maybe it's me. Maybe it's them.

But that's how it should be too. I don't think people should be stuck in their opinion. No matter how right you think you are, I think you should always be open to changing your mind. I think so too. But I think that's one of the rarest qualities when it comes to discourse is the ability that people have to abandon ideas that they've supported in the past. Because what does that mean then if you're on one side and everyone in your life thinks this way? What does it mean if you don't think that way? Yeah. And everyone in your life thinks this way.

What does it mean if you don't think that way? Yeah. Well, what are the ideas you? Or are you you and the ideas are just things that you're examining? Yeah. That's what it should be. But for most people, including me, most of my life, that was not the case. If I had an idea and if I supported that idea, I'll fucking fight you. Yeah.

I'm right and you're wrong. And that is what changed then doing this, doing this podcast has changed the way I talk to people, change the way I look at life. I've talked to so many smart people. I mean, I've had a thousand, one hundred,

1200, 1200 podcasts plus all the MMA ones. there's so many conversations so and through those conversations I've gotten at least not a formal education but an understanding of things that I never had before across a lot of subjects too yeah yeah and through that i think um i've understand i've come to understand not just how i think about things but why why uh i've had roadblocks and conversations before and speed bumps and and i've learned you know i think if you examine your own yourself and your own thoughts you're you're sure to learn hopefully yeah and i think it also can help if you examine your own yourself and your own thoughts, you're, you're sure to learn hopefully. Yeah. And I think it also can help if you look at the other side, it can help you figure out

why you believe what you believe too. Cause you can look at them and say, okay, I still don't agree with you. And this is why I think if people aren't even willing to look at the other side and consider why they might be wrong how do you really know yeah and then you also run into some people that they don't really have opinions they have these things that they've adopted like slogans yeah they've they've gotten these things they've decided this is what my side supports so i'm gonna just spout this out and this makes me seem like i'm a good team player and and then the thing about podcasts though when you're sitting down for three hours, you go, why do you think that? Like what's going on there? And then they start talking about why they think that.

And then, you know, it all falls apart and then you realize that they don't even know why they think that. Yeah. And they probably never even thought about it before. They just been saying what they've been saying for so long. Right, because it sounds nice. Yeah. People love to do that. They love it. It's a sport.

I mean, there's idea sports. And idea sports are arguments. Arguments are so oftentimes idea sports. Yeah. Politics, too, to some degree, I think. Oh, yeah, for sure. But the politics are just so flavored by money. The problem with that, you know, that version of idea sport is lobbyists and special interest groups and different people that are pushing you to get in the office because you're going

to change laws and force things through. And that's the trickiest of all idea sports and also the most shallow. I mean, just think about presidential debates and speeches. idea sports and also the most shallow. I mean, just think about presidential debates and speeches and those are the most shallow discussions in terms of the actual reality of who that person is. Who is that person? Imagine if you were dating someone and every time you went on a date with them, it was like a presidential speech. You'd be like, who the fuck are you? I don't even know who you are. You don't display any humanity kind of interesting though yeah you could probably write a book about that but that's what we want

in leaders right we want someone who's full of shit who who like makes us feel better like they they're comforting yeah that they're speaking like a leader you know it's weird it's weird that we like these patterns. So, you know, the presidential speaking pattern is a very, very strange one. Yeah. It's soothing, though. Yeah. I guess in a way, right?

Yeah. In a way, it's soothing because we want a big daddy. We want a big daddy to take care of us. You know, tell us everything will be okay. But as you get older, that makes less and less sense. Like, I'm 50 and so if a new president was 45, I'd be like, that bitch don't know shit. What the fuck does he know?

He only been living 45 years? Shit. You know, but like when you're 30 and the president's 70, you're like, well, he makes sense. He's an established person. He's a man of reason. But is it the age difference or is it your own maturity? Well, there's a lot of old dummies for sure. There's a lot of dummies who just survived because we nerfed up the world for them. Yeah, it's your own maturity. It's also the amount of

time that you have to examine ideas. See, if I worked in a coal mine, I probably would not have the time to sit around all day and think shit through. There's a great luxury that you have when you do this for a living. Yeah. That you get a chance to communicate with people over and over and over again. And there'll be another podcast tomorrow. There's another podcast the next day. over again and it'll be another podcast tomorrow's another podcast the next day every day i'm looking at a new person and talking to a new brain and trying to see how it goes on in there what's what's behind the eyes figure it out yeah yeah is that why you like it this length you know what

everybody told me not to do this this was the fun like ari shafir it's famously told me you gotta edit your podcast i go why no one's gonna listen to it for that long so they don't listen i don't give a fuck i'm like i'm just gonna do this yeah it's like you should edit it i'm like why well there's parts in it that are not good i go yeah those parts you're gonna have to either skip over or just not not download it i don't give a shit. The nice thing about long form, though, too, if people know it's not edited, they trust it a bit more. Yes. Yes. Yeah. There's definitely that. Yeah.

Like that. The, the, the, the, the, the, the. That's in there. It's character. That's who you are. That's who you are. There's no way you could freeball an entire three hours and, well, Sam Harris can do it. He's no way you could free ball an entire three hours. Well, Sam Harris can do it.

He's pretty good at it. Yeah. Super articulate guy. With practice. Well, you've been doing this a long time. You're good. Well, thank you. You're good at it too.

Thank you. We just did three hours. Whoa. Is there anything you would like to say or is there anything you don't think we covered? I guess the only thing I'd say, we just launched our first season of wrong speak the second season will be starting in the fall now how are you doing when you're saying seasons so we did three for the first and we're going to do another cluster of three or four for the next but why are you calling them a season because it's one group and one group about particular subjects no so then so uh next season we're going to do

one on political correctness and comedy there's going to be one on academic mobbing and then there's going to be another one that's going to be surprise oh so you plan them out way in advance yeah we do a bit more of uh it's kind of more of a structure like a story it's not a long form thing it's a bit more of uh more production in there i've mostly heard you do other people's stuff yeah probably so you're doing a lot of how did you how did you do a lot well i'm not i'm not even sure how i found out about you i mean i'm sure i found out about you online but i don't know like what it was that that led me to one of your interviews probably the google memo i think when i wrote that column defending James Damore's

memo, because I think that's when we first started being in contact. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I do a lot of stuff. So I have a weekly column for playboy.com, monthly column for the Globe and Mail, which is Canada's national newspaper, co-host on Wrong Speak, the podcast, and I'll be doing hopefully lots and lots more stuff going forward.

And hopefully we'll do this again. I hope so. This has been so much fun. I'm a totally fangirl now until you've been watching you as an MMA color commentator forever. So this has been so cool. Well, I thought it was really cool too. I really enjoyed talking to you. Tell people how they can find your social media and all that jazz.

I'm at DrDebra So on Twitter and Facebook, Dr. Deborah W. So on Instagram, and then you can check out Wrongspeak at Wrongspeak. And all major podcasting platforms, iTunes, Play. We did it, Deborah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye, everybody.