The Joe Rogan Experience - #1172 - Morgan Fallon

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Morgan Fallon is a DP, director, and producer on the CNN documentary series "Parts Unknown"with Anthony Bourdain.

four three two one what's up mo what's up how are you buddy good to see you man it's good to see you um i'm glad we decided to get together and do this you know and and talk and um you know it's a crazy subject right i mean uh you and i've known each other since 2012 when I did Meat Eater. You were there filming when I shot my first deer, which is a very important part of my life, man. And then you went on to direct and produce Parts Unknown with our late friend Anthony Bourdain. And we just thought it would probably be a good thing to come in here and just talk about him. Yeah, man, and I'm really grateful for it. It's actually a lot of people have been saying to me,

like, oh, it must be really hard to talk about that. I actually find it kind of the opposite. Like, I want to talk about him. I want to talk about who he was and what that experience was, you know. So thanks, man. My pleasure, brother. Did you know? So, um, thanks man. My pleasure, brother. Did you, did you know him before you guys started working together? No, no. I met Tony, uh, 10 years ago and I was called in. Uh,

he had a DP on a show who at the last minute canceled, couldn't go to Egypt. So, uh, I got a call like a week before you know it's like do you want to go to egypt with anthony bourdain i was like yeah absolutely right you know um and uh and so i met him in cairo man like you know it was kind of like perfect yeah holy shit that's like indiana jones exactly is that the episode when you guys ate a camel? No, no, we didn't eat a camel. But, you know, I met him there. You know, we started filming. We were on the streets of Cairo.

And like, you know, it's like all of a sudden it's thrown into these kitchens. We're just like, we're eating pigeon. You know, it's like go and cover them cooking pigeon. And, you know, I had seen the show like maybe once before, but I knew who he was and I knew what that adventure was. Right. You know, and I was so amped for it. And then there was like this seminal moment on that show where we go out and we go ripping across the desert with the Bedouin and go out and cook a goat in the ground, you know. And so as we're driving out over the desert, we're like,

well, we need some shots from car to car, right? And I was like, oh, I'll get on the roof, you know. And there's like this four, for some reason, there's a four-post bed tied to the roof of this Land Rover. And so I get up there and kind of like, you know, latch my arm around it. And these guys take off at, I swear, 80 miles an hour across the desert. I mean. And you're on a bed? Absolutely.

Absolutely no regard for the fact that like I'm on the roof, you know, shooting. And when we got there, we got to camp. I survived it. I had this big black and blue where I was holding on to the four-post bed. And I go over and I show Tony. And that was it, man. From that moment on, he was like, I like this guy. And I started going out with him.

I started getting invited to do more shows. Wow. So that was it, man. How many years? Ten years. Wow. Ten years, yeah yeah that's crazy I didn't realize that Parts Unknown was even

were you doing No Reservations first? yeah so that was a No Reservation show and then we went to Parts Unknown 5 years ago so Parts Unknown has been on for 5 years yeah and that transition No Reservation was great and it really laid the foundation for what we do, what Tony did. I think it really built an audience and a following for him.

That's what I found out about him. Like that transition going on to CNN and going into Parts Unknown, that really changed things. That really opened up a lot of locations and stuff that we didn't have access to before. It opened up, you know, kind of CNN's logistics Rolodex and, you know, things that we didn't have at the other network, you know. And so that's, you know, No Reservations was awesome. We did some incredible shows. Parts Unknowns got really fun. Yeah, it was on another level. I remember watching the chains.

I was like, okay, this is more him, you know, everything from the opening music to the tone of it and the narration. Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, you've got to hand it to CNN too. It's like all of a sudden we had these creative partners who were like willing to let him be him. You know, like willing to let him do a show like the Tokyo show where we're like, you know, really climbing into Japanese subcultures, rope bondage, tentacle porn, you know, all this stuff that most network executives are probably a little bit leery of, you know, CNN was kind of like, you know, go for it, man, be yourself, you know, and let's figure out what this is together.

You know, that's amazing. That really is amazing. And one of the things that really made that show was Tony's narration, because the narration gave you a sense of the way his, his sort of passion and enthusiasm for the world and for various aspects of cooking and travel and food and culture. Like you got it through his own words, you know? Yeah, I think that's, I mean, maybe in some ways the most important aspect of the show. You know, I mean, he is after all a writer, right? Yeah.

You know, and that is how he experienced the world. But actually making the shows and the technical part of actually making the shows, you know, once you go through and kind of edit the show, you know, none of that voiceover was in at the rough cut phase. And you send it out to him and get his writing back and record that vo and i keep describing it as like that kind of dr frankenstein lightning bolt to the temple's kind of moment where like the monster rises it would really just bring the show to life so this kind of carcass that was laid out in rough cut form on the table all of a sudden just gasped and jumped up and you know it was really beautiful like to see that and to have you know as a director as a producer as a creative you know at any level you know to have that kind of power yeah um to have his voice and his writing and his

introspection and thoughts and you know um, that would have, like, powerful, you know, powerful force to work with. Well, it was a brilliant design, the way the show was put together. That narration really did make it something special and different from all those other kinds of shows because just his articulate and insightful and poetic and artistic view of these things, that he had this infectious passion for things he completely changed the way i thought about cooking i'd always thought about cooking as oh this guy knows how to make delicious food oh this place has good ribs and then when i saw

his show when i saw parts unknown i went oh it's an art. It's just an art form that you eat. Absolutely. It's just a temporary art form. Yeah. And even beyond that, it's an art form that's taking and incorporating all of these greater kind of macro social elements of, you know, where you are, the history of where you are, you know, what people did for a living, what people's ancestors did for a living. You know, it's rooted in so much more. And what I think, you know, ultimately it was like we kind of joke around a lot and say like, yeah, it's a food show. It's not a food show, you know. But the reason that worked, I think, is because of what you're saying.

And, you know, the food is an art form that incorporates all of these other aspects. And so it can be a jumping point off for exploration into anything you want to talk about. We talked about the history of a place, the politics of a place, the religion of a place, all of these things that inform who people are. Well, that's all writ into the cuisine of a place or an area, you know? Yeah. And he was into stuff that wasn't necessarily even like high, you know, high dollar items. He was into like street food. Definitely.

Yeah. It wasn't just the finest French, you know, bistros where these celebrated world famous chefs were cooking these bizarre small plate sort of masterpieces no he would love street tacos yeah absolutely i mean and again i think that was kind of like a whole new kind of fresh take on looking at food you know yeah it's like it's easy to you know to look at these kind of high-end French preparations, these highly talented, highly trained French chefs. And there's tremendous beauty in that and all of those other things we talked about. But to look at the woman on the corner that's making the lingua tacos, like that was revolutionary. And then the realization that all of that, all of that greatness, all of that nuance,

all of that flavor, you know, contained right within there. That was an access point to it as well. It's just an access point that everyone can afford, that everyone can go in. And, you know i mean right place at the right time i think that people like it seems like the culture at large was ready for that ready for that like experience in food and ready to kind of chase that because now i mean that's that's all anyone wants now well i think it's because of him i really do i really do because i mean i'm sure that he changed the way i look at things

in terms of food and i think he had that effect on many people i mean you think about how many years was parts unknown for five and then no reservations for nine new reservations yeah for about 10 and then there was cook's tour before that right so original all, a decade and a half of his influence on people's food choices and just appreciation for food. I mean, I know personally I've had some great meals in restaurants, but some of my favorite meals have been like stepping outside of a bar. You know, it's 1.30, you got a little buzz on, and some dude's got a taco truck. You're like, oh, baby, what do you got over there, my friend? Or in New York, you know, it's late at night and there's a falafel cart and some guy's got incredible kebabs. Like, oh, something about street food, man.

Absolutely, man. And, yeah, I kind of keep like a loose running list of my favorite meals, you know. And some of them are on the show and some of them are not on the show. And I'd say most of them are on the show and some of them are not on the show. And I'd say most of them are that. You know, most of them are accidentally stumbling into some place where someone's doing something completely awesome that isn't, you know, some massive 26 course tasting menu, you know. And I think it's also about, you know, it's about place, you know. Yeah. It's about where you are, the context of where you're eating, what it smells like, what it sounds like, what it looks like, you know, who you're with, you know.

Yeah. And so, you know, that's kind of I think another reason the show kind of worked is we had an opportunity to articulate all of those elements, you know? We were able to choose an incredibly interesting guest to sit down with at a really interesting restaurant with, you know, people cooking of a really interesting backstory in a beautiful place and then use the power of kind of the magic of TV to, you know, to polish it up

and present this version of travel and food in the world that, you know. Yeah, and really everywhere, too. I mean, you guys covered Asia. You covered Europe. You covered some weird places in the south where people are cooking pigs in their backyard. Yeah. I mean, it was just, it gave people an understanding of the preparation of food and a view to chefs and this view of chefs as artists. I mean, these chefs look like tattoo artists. They look like, you know, guys who are

painters or something or women who are sculptors. I mean, they're real similar in the way they appear to what we consider artists. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, I mean, you know, what I kind of love about like, this point, spent a good amount of time in kitchens and a good amount of time around kitchen staff is there's kind of two elements coming together. There's the artistic element that you're talking about, right? But there's also this very earnest working class kind of element to the way a kitchen works. It's tough, hard, sweaty work. It's a rough environment. And I think that's kind of part of what makes it so appealing to us.

He kind of pulled back the curtain on that. Let's say these guys are, you know, these guys are not these inaccessible icons, the Paul Bocuse of the world, you know. They are, as much as Paul Bocuse is awesome, you know, they are these kind of rough and tumble, you know, guys that are back there making something really awesome, you know.

Tony also had this sort of punk rock sensibility to it all too. I mean, that was part of the thing about him that people found appealing is that they had seen cooking shows before, but they never saw cooking shows where the host gets fucked up. You know? Dude, the first time I partied with him, I'm like, this guy goes so hard. That was amazing. Yeah, tell me about it it was

amazing I was like I can't believe he can do this all the time like I think one of the first times we ever got hung out together was in um Montreal we were there for uh UFC fights and we went out afterwards and got uh we had some steaks and it was just amazing walking into this restaurant people freaking out one guy actually had a copy of Kitchen Confidential in the actual kitchen itself and had Tony sign it. It was pretty fucking badass. Where'd you go? I do not remember. Was it Joe Beef?

No, it wasn't. But he turned me on to Joe Beef. And I've eaten there several times since then. Those guys are coming on the podcast, too. I love those guys. Fred and Dave. Yeah, no, they're fucking amazing. That restaurant is one of my favorite restaurants on the planet.

No doubt, man. But they'll hurt you. Yeah, they keep it coming. Yeah, no, they're fucking amazing. That restaurant is one of my favorite restaurants on the planet. No doubt, man. But they'll hurt you. Yeah, they keep it coming. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, give you an inch thick slab of foie gras, you know. Yes. Well, their show, one of the ones that I really loved was the one where they did ice fishing. They were on the water.

And they had this ice fishing shack. But inside the ice fishing shack, they had fine silverware and fine china, and they had bottles of really excellent wine, and they were cooking on a wood stove. They had a wood stove, and they were cooking foie gras right there on the stove.

And then they were laying out what they think makes you a good dinner companion. And Dave was like, I shut my phone off. I turn it off. I put it away. He goes, I don't check it. He goes, I don't put my elbows on the table.

And he's like, and I come prepared with stories. And Tony was like, you prepare? You prepare stories? He goes, I have stories to tell. I come prepared. To him, it's like not really a performance, but it's an agreement that you're going to, you're going to go there and you're going to share this enthusiasm for this experience together.

And you're going to try to enhance it with your own anecdotes and personality and your own appreciation for the food and the wine. And, and then afterwards they're smoking Cuban cigars. It's like the whole thing is, it made you want to go eat at a really good place. Yeah. Or in a shack. In a shack. On a frozen lake.

With people who understand that there's an elegance to all of these things. You know? That you can create an environment that has an elegance. And that's, you know, I'd say that's like a hallmark of a lot of the chefs that I've met through the show is like, you will see that, you know, no matter how big they get, no matter how successful, there is an inherent kind of desire to please on multiple levels. You know, you'll have like, I remember we were in Daniel Balloud's house in France, like at his parents' house. Right. And so here's Daniel Balloud, like the mega chef, you know?

But like running around to all of the crew members, like, do you have something to eat? Are you good? Do you want another glass of wine? Do you want to like, you know? And it just inherent to his nature is exactly what you're talking about. that they have this just ongoing desire to please their guests, to entertain, to make sure that everyone's taken care of. They're curators of an experience.

Absolutely, yeah. And so to be able to run around the world for 10 years and explore that, it was nice, man. God, man, i could only imagine yeah i could only how many shows did you guys film together i don't you know i'm i don't know 57 or 60 something like that somewhere in that area yeah wow so i mean and listen there are people uh you know at 10 years on the show i was on the show for a long time there's people a lot longer it's people who did the whole 17 years. People have done well over a hundred episodes, you know, no one left

that show. You don't leave that show if you get a spot on it. Were you with him when, when it ended? No, uh, no, I was with him, um, about a week and a half before. Uh, no, I had good friends that were there. I was in Chicago, and I woke up, and I checked my phone, and I got a text from my friend Maynard, Maynard Keenan, from Tool. And Maynard is a jiu-jitsu brown belt and really loves jujitsu, and he texted me and said, so much for the Maynard versus Anthony Bourdain celebrity jujitsu match, and that's the whole text,

and I just sunk a pit in my stomach. And I just picked up my phone. I went into Google, and I looked it up, and I saw it. I'm just like, oh, fuck. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. You know, I started crying. I think I called my wife.

I think I called Maynard. I texted him. I called my wife. Called a few friends. You know, just like, you know, just couldn't believe you know when someone's just not there anymore I didn't get to see him a lot but I was just a

just appreciated the fuck out of that dude you know like I don't want to do anybody's TV show but when I got a call from him I was like fuck yeah what are we gonna do we're gonna shoot pheasants and hunt and camp? And we're going to cook by the campfire?

Fuck, I'm in, dude. You know, I'm in. I just really appreciated him as a genuine, unique person. Like, he's a genuine, rare person. And, you know, that's what I got out of being able to spend some time with him and being able to talk to him and pick his brain. And he did my podcast once, and we always planned on doing it again. We never got around to it because we both have ridiculous schedules.

But I would think about things differently because of him. Like I would sometimes, like like hold things to his standards and he, he like legitimately his appreciation for things and his enthusiasm for things changed the way I look at a lot of, a lot of aspects of food and culture and, and, and even travel, you know?

Yeah. I mean, um, I'm sorry, man. And I, you know, and I know he thought very highly of you and that was that experience in Montana was fantastic, man. So fun. Um, you know, I, it's been, I, and it's been a rough three months and it's still hard for me to really contextualize it and, and put it together.

It feels like, you know, upside down world. Like there's no, and he was such a, I mean, it was a friend and a collaborator and a, you know,

but also just such an icon to me, you know? And, um, and, uh, that it's almost like, you know, it's almost like the sun disappears, you know yeah and um and uh that it's almost like you know it's almost like the sun disappears you know or something it's something that is so just inherently part of life there and and dependable and you know um so yeah i mean it's been it's hard to describe how how um profound that's been um i remember when

he got into jiu-jitsu i got psyched because i'm like we got more to talk about now like i can actually i can actually show him some shit you know and he was always asking about things you know he's really good at things remember when we were in montana we were rolling around on the dirt i know showing our stuff him and josh i was like remember when we were in Montana, we were rolling around on the dirt. I know, I remember. I was showing our stuff, him and Josh. I was like, when you're in here, here's what you can do. And he's like, oh, yeah. He was so wide-eyed, you know.

I think it was before he even got his blue belt, or maybe it was like a round blue belt. So he was super, super jacked about it, and he was doing it every day. I remember when we were filming, we were outside of Billings. Is that where we were? Where were we? Yeah. Well, where the hunt was. Yeah. The hunt, we were in like, uh, up in central Montana, you know? So, um, we kind of started in Billings, but we headed up towards central Montana. He was training so often in, even on the road that he traveled to a club. There was just a jujitsu club in bozeman yeah and he found some guys and he's rolling with these guys in bozeman yeah yeah definitely like damn you're doing it

every day well that was every day for a long time on the show that was a mandate we find the local you know the local clubs and yeah make sure that he had a place to roll he texted me from some european block country said he was shitting bone bone chips because uh he worked out with some old school carlson Gracie guys. They don't believe in rolling light. It's all top game and smashing you. And he said, I'm shitting bone chips. But I admired that a guy could be 58 years old and decide I'm going to learn jujitsu and I'm going to be obsessed with it.

And then he became addicted to it, which jujitsu is a very beneficial thing to be addicted to, but it is absolutely an addiction. I've come back from injuries where I definitely shouldn't have been training yet, and I just wrap my arm up and just fucking get in there. People get super, super addicted to it, and he got addicted to it, just like he's been addicted to many things. He jumped right into the jujitsu experience. Yeah, man. I'm glad he did. It was clearly really good for him to us. I mean, I know very little about jiu-jitsu.

I know what I know from Tony. He got so slim. Yeah. He lost all that weight. All of a sudden, he had a six-pack. Stopped smoking. Yeah. Those were big things, man.

And he looked great. Got off statins. Yeah. You know, those were big things, man. And he looked great. Got off statins. Yeah. He's no longer on any sort of medication. Yeah. He lost all that weight. Yeah. Cut all the carbs out.

Yeah. He was just eating like, you know. Yeah, just protein. Crazy, man. Yeah. He looked so good. He did look good. He did look good.

And also just, you know, the whole thing was kind of indicative of the way he was. I mean, he did things so passionately. Yeah. You know, whether it was travel and the world and soaking up all these experiences or jujitsu or whatever. If he was into something, if something caught his attention, he was just so aggressive about knowledge. Yeah. Learning what he could, pulling everything out of it that he could.

It's just crazy to see someone do something that's that physically demanding at 58 with no background in athletics at all. You could see when he was like, even when he was doing things, like when he went to Kurt Osiander's place and was rolling around, he doesn't have a background in that, but he's just pushing himself to it. Yeah, and again, I pushing himself to it. Yeah. And again, I think that was true with everything. If it was something that was interesting to him, he just went.

He loved it, man. It was crazy. And I remember texting him going, how deep are you getting into it? He goes, real fucking deep. And he goes, I'm getting tapped out every day but he goes i'm giving guys half my age a real struggle and he goes uh and i'm loving it yeah and he talked about that a lot i mean i think he talked about like the the failure as much as

anything else and he loved that yeah going in and you know getting smashed yeah but you know again to his credit you know we'd show up in these places you know bozeman montana man or butte you know i mean i think he rolled in butte you know butte's a hard hit in town man and listen i love butte i love you too much respect to anyone from butte but man that's a hard hit in town you know he'd roll into these real cowboys places yeah you know and uh and get the shit kicked out of him and show up on set all you know sore and bruised and oh man oh you know and then just jump into that you know it's just different for a guy who's 58 i mean you got a guy who does it at 20 i admire anybody who does jiu-jitsu because it's a real humbling ego

dissolving experience in a lot of ways because it makes you realize all your illusions of how well you can defend yourself, they go out the window and someone just chokes you easily. And you're like, oh, great. I'm just a bitch running around this life thinking I'm a man. But the fact that he did it at 58 just showed what kind of an unusual duty he was. Yeah, but what you just talked about there, I mean, what you're talking about with the ego-diminishing aspect of it, again, I think that that was something that he took great pleasure in.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, if you look at the way he went through the world, one of the things that, you know, I appreciated right off the bat and one of the things that kept me around as long as I stayed around, you know. The fact that, you know, for Tony, I think that he was constantly trying to dismantle that persona, you know, to say, like, I'm not the focal point of this scene. What we're interested in here, what I'm interested in talking about is out there. The camera's pointed away from me. You know, he was kind of a clearinghouse for all that information.

And he was the root of the show and it was his journey. But, you know, ultimately, you know, what was refreshing is he wasn't like working with some celebrity or host that was completely consumed by their own ego and their own, you know, brand and, and how they were presented to the world. That's so disgusting, right? You know? Yeah, dude,

but it's, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. Yeah. He was very self deprecating and, and he had reverence for real artists and real masters and that total reverence. Yeah. It came across,

it came across. I texted him about some guy, there was a photo of a restaurant and uh i'm sure it's still on my phone some dude who's like a real famous guy who's like some big time chef character and i was eating in this restaurant and so i'm like who the fuck is this guy i guess it seems like it's a big deal and so uh i uh I texted him the photo of this cat right here. Yeah. Do you know who that guy is?

What's that guy's name? So I said, who is that guy? He says, Marco Pierre White. Made Ramsey cry like a bitch. All-time original rock star chef. Genius. Mad man. The original punk.

But that kind of text, like, that's a Tony Bourdain text. Oh, man. That text shows that reverence for the masters. Oh, man. That's what, that text shows that reverence for the masters. Oh, yeah. You know? I mean, even the way he phrases it, you know? Made him cry like a bitch. All-time original rock star chef.

Genius. Mad man. You know, and that's the way, I mean, what worked about that is he had a, like, an instant ability to sniff through the bullshit, you know. So, you know, listen, there's all kinds of famous people, celebrities, you know, well-accomplished people that he met that he didn't feel that way about, you know. He would cut through that shit instantly. But if you were on his radar in that way you know it's like total commitment to what you do you were in or you're out yeah the anthony bourdain club exactly dude you want to be in man that list of people is like yeah that's a cool list to be on yeah well i just remember hanging

out with him you know like i just it was one of those guys he was one of the ones that i met that i was like pretty starstruck like right away. Yeah. I said something really stupid. Like my wife says you're my boyfriend. Cause I watch his show all the time. She would just joke around. Oh, you watch your boyfriend on TV?

I'm like, he's great. This guy's great. Stop. Leave him alone. But, um, like, uh, when we were in Montana, that's when I realized, well, I always knew how hard he went, but when I was blasted out of my mind and he was like, where's that bottle? Where's those joints? And I was like, Jesus, man.

Yeah. Like I can't even. I'm hanging on to the earth here. Yeah. Well, that was a late night, man. Yeah. That one, I mean, listen, like in all fairness, not every night was quite like that. Yeah.

We had a lot of fun that night for sure. It was real fun. In fairness, not every night was quite like that. Yeah. We had a lot of fun that night for sure. It was real fun. And a really interesting, thoughtful dialogue around the campfire with Land Townie from Backwoods Country Hunters and Anglers and all the other guys that were with us. You know, these guys who it was good to get a different perspective on what going out and getting your own wild food is like. Yeah.

You know, and then having him cook it there and it was delicious yeah it was awesome and but also being able to put those ideas on like a major network and print pretty rare man you know yeah kudos to CNN for having the cojones to put together that kind of a show and have it on you know big? Big time, man. Again, what can I say? Best creative partners you could ask for in terms of that, you know? You really enjoyed it that much. They took big risks. Yeah. That was the dream job.

You do what I do. You are interested in making documentary television, you know? That's it, man. How did it wind up at CNN? Were there some other options? Because I know he had a giant problem with the Travel Channel because I know he had told me that they fucked him over and did some Cadillac ad. Yeah. Yeah.

I know he was really pissed about the Cadillac ad. What was that about? Honestly, I don't really know a lot of the details of the whole story. I don't know what other deals were on the table besides CNN. But it's safe to say that I think the relationship with Travel Channel was toxic before that. Well, Travel Channel is a religious-owned place. At least was. I don't know if still is.

I think the original people that owned it, because my friend Bert Kreischer has a show over there, or had a show over there, a couple shows. Bert the Conqueror. And what was his other show? Hurt Bert. Yeah, she's a crazy asshole. But, you know, Burt had issues with that too. Like when he would be on the show, if we'd all be hanging out together, if he wanted to smoke

pot, he had to make sure that Jamie turned the camera away from him. Oh, yeah. Because they couldn't see him smoke pot. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, and listen, I don't have any inside information, so this is purely my outside perspective. I don't do the deals and i don't you know deal in that stuff and make the shows you know but uh you know i saw a network

that was more interested in making like you know shows about sandcastles you know yeah and uh and ghosts you know then that's why they had a bunch of ghost shows a lot of ghost shows yeah the ghost shows are fucking popular yeah they're really popular man so stupid you know the dumbest fucking shows on television and there's like a hundred of them but the thing is if you're watching everybody's scared of ghosts so if you're watching and it's like people and they're in the basement and they have night vision on and they pretend they see something like what are they seeing is there a fucking real ghost cuts to commercial and then all of a sudden you're hooked and you watch a tied commercial.

It's a hook after hook after hook. Yeah. It is the craziest, weirdest thing. It's one of the weirder things on television. I just can't imagine having to shoot those shows. Oh, could you imagine trying to make them interesting like you? Stumbling around some fucking old house like night vision, you know, trying to. Is that a fear now?

I mean, look, you went from Meat Eater, which is an amazing show, and Parts Unknown, and No Reservations. So you got these three amazing shows, and they put you on a ghost show. No, that's not a fear of mine. Listen, that might be a nightmare. That might be something I dream about and wake up sweating through my sheets. No, man. Listen, I still work for 0.0. Hi, Morgan, Morgan Fallon.

It's Mike from Finding Bigfoot. Listen, we're coming back for season 1,000. Yeah, exactly right. We're going to find him this year. Please, please come aboard we love what you did with tony bourdain and we think you could do that with bobo you know but here's the thing they don't they don't want that they don't want they don't want cinematography and art you know they want listen man they want some kid producer director slash cinematographer that

they can you know they don't want they don't want what we do. They want fake Bigfoot noises. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I'm still, like I said, I'm still with 0.0, Tony's long-term, you know, long-time production company. We do awesome work. We got a ton of awesome stuff lined up. You know, we'll be okay, man.

Are you going to do more stuff with Steve at Meat Eater? I'll go out with Steve anytime he calls. I just need a little more advanced warning these days. I think they called me last week to see if I wanted to do an elk hunt. Now, if you do that, would you try to get in shape first, like heavy duty? Yeah, absolutely. It's the last time I went out with him, I got my ass kicked. It's fucking rough.

Are you kidding, man? you kidding man dude he's got he has i mean talk about a guy with like you know he has no empathy whatsoever for um for the people he's with who maybe can't keep up with him man when you're in the it's like if you can't make that hike you're just not making that hike you know yeah and you know he weighs 110 pounds and he can walk for days yeah yeah And he's been doing this since he was a baby. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, man. The last time I went out with him was, I guess, two years ago. I went up to Alaska and did the blacktail hunt. But we actually had nice weather, which was kind of unbelievable. Because I know you've been up there when it's like 10 days of rain coming in sideways.

Yeah. We had to leave early last time I was there because a storm was coming. And we had to make a decision. It's a storm coming every time we were up there. But we weren't going to be able to get out. It was a possibility. Right. Yeah. We had to leave early last time I was there because a storm was coming and we had to make a decision. There's a storm coming every time we're up there. We weren't going to be able to get out. It was a possibility. Right. Exactly.

But part of me was like, even though we're rain soaked, I want to hunt the last six hours. Yeah. Because if I stay the last day, never know. That might be the... And that's so many times. That's when you hook up with an animal. Absolutely. I mean, in my experience up there... Hook up with an animal sounds like the wrong thing to say like really really wrong

you can hook up with an animal and catch a can um no man but you know like it was that's exactly the way it was you go up there and you'd be in you know six days of rain but all of a sudden you know the fog would clear and there's some you know black tails standing right there looking at you you know a lot of bear up there too yeah tons of bear no but he you know i got my ass whipped last time i went up there first time i went up there i was still in shape you know i was younger yeah i did pretty well well you were doing it all the time you have to do it all the time you have the hiking thing is something i mean you're you're basically building up this endurance in your legs that you only get from hiking absolutely yeah hiking endurance

is no joke it seems like it's a joke because if you hike for like five feet it seems like nothing you climb a small hill you're like i could do this all day you think you could do it all day you do that for 20 minutes you start heaving you'd be drenched in sweat you'd want to take your jacket off and then you realize like oh my, I have to do this for eight more hours? Eight more days. Fuck, yeah. And then in the morning, and if your immune system is at all taxed, it's going to crash hard. You might get sick.

Yeah, man. No, like you said, you can't train for it. You can't train for that kind of backcountry stuff. You can go out and run up and down the Stairmaster or whatever, but it doesn't train all those little muscles that you use to constantly stabilize yourself. Stairmaster will help a little. Stairmaster will help a little.

The major muscle groups, right? Running hills helped me a lot. Just because it's so much harder than hiking. You just run them, you can do it easier. It makes hiking easier. Hiking with weighted packs on too. Did you ever do that easier it makes hiking easier hiking with weighted packs on too did you ever do that oh yeah yeah and that's what we did but i mean not just like for training oh just for training yeah i would um on the stairmaster actually i'm sure i am dissing

the stairmaster with that exactly yeah yeah no i'd put weights in my pack and go in the stairmaster yeah yeah and boots you know weird boots on the the master did they let you do that at the gym or they look at you weird well everyone looks at you weird oh my god if you if you even talk about hunting in los angeles they look weird man true you know like what's wrong with you what the fuck that guy got camo on for me yeah jesus christ dude did you wear camo at the gym? I feel like I may have had some camo aspect to my pack. Of course. Bloodstains. You know, it's interesting, though, because I think back on those times and like, you know, like while we're talking about like all the shitty weather and all that stuff.

And I just think back to that. The first time I went out with Steve, him saying like, yeah, dude, but you won't, you know, you never tell stories about the good days, you know? And I got to say to his credit, that's been absolutely true. It's like those, those shitty days, freezing cold, you know, getting out of your, getting out of your sleeping bag in the morning and putting on wet clothes, cold, wet clothes to go, you know, to go out and hunt all day. You know, I look back on that with like a great degree of fondness and I also have to say it made me a lot more of a person than I was before you know toughens you up it it toughened me up it opened me up to the idea of it opening me up to accepting

you know possibilities for myself that I had never thought of before. You know, like... Your capabilities. Your capabilities. You know, that we, like, we all have that somewhere back down in the brainstem, this idea, this ability to just go out in the woods and, you know, hunt something and eat it. Right. You know, and up until that point, I had never done that.

I'd done some hiking and some camping. It was always on trails and they're all nicely marked and stuff like that. The idea of stepping out of the back door of Steve's cabin and just into the woods at that time for me when I first did it, that was completely new. I was like, well, you can just walk into the woods? What do you mean, man? Where are you going? Where do we go?

Right. into the woods like what do you mean man where are you going where do we go right you know and uh and then to to do it and to have it be successful and to bring that animal back and to sit around and eat it and all this stuff that was a real huge aha moment for me you know personally and professionally like oh we can do shit that we used to do you know 10 000 years ago what was big for me too i remember saying that on the show like when steve was asking me and brian uh on the first hunt which just by sheer luck we were both successful on the on the first hunt yeah and steve was like uh do you think you're gonna do it again i said fuck yeah i'm doing this forever like i knew it yeah he goes when did you know i said the moment that deer dropped yeah the moment the deer dropped i Yeah. The moment the deer dropped, I'm like, okay, I'm doing this forever. Yeah. This is how I'm getting my meat now.

I'm going to do this. Yeah, man. It's the, it's, I don't know. There's so many just like really glib interpretations of like the motivation behind hunting, you know, cruelty and bloodlust. And it's like, because in its worst cases, that's the, that's true. Yeah. And because I, I, i do think that hunting shows for

years that's a lot of what they put forward was like kind of machismo and guys shooting you know black bears over you know donut barrels you know um for all the wrong reasons you know at least we think of that as something that people or at least i do think of that as something that people eat for food when you think about cecil like Cecil the lion, that kind of shit really sours people on the idea of hunting because there's no justification for the average person for shooting a lion. I mean, you would have to do decades of education about conservation and the importance of the money that goes for the hunt, and then they still don't get it because they're like, why

would you want to shoot a lion? And that's the good question. The good question like, why would you want to shoot a lion? And that's the good question. The good question is, why would you want to shoot a lion? You know, and I would say it's a good question for me, too. Like, I definitely have limits. You know, as much as I went around with Steve, I have limits on what I would personally choose to do. And I got to say the Africa stuff, for me, man, I just, it's not interesting to me. The only thing that's interesting to me in Africa would be to hunt something that I would eat.

So if they have antelope in Africa, I would love to hunt an antelope. They've got a lot of those. Yeah, hunt an antelope and cook it and eat it. That to me makes sense. There's no way I want to shoot a hippo or anything else. Even if people do eat hippos, and I understand they do, okay, good luck.

Yeah. I don't want to have nothing to do I understand they do, okay, good luck. Yeah. I don't want to have nothing to do with any of that. No, me neither. But game animals that are delicious, Neil Guy, things like that, that people have eaten forever, and that they hunt just like they hunt elk or deer here, that to me makes sense. It would be just an adventure to go to Africa. But Africa's so fucking scary. It's so sketchy.

I love, I mean, see I I love Africa and I became like I kind of took all the Africa shows I could on parts unknown really that's what you most like wonderful place I well um first of all I think there's like a I think it's a there's a lot of misperception when it comes I've never had a negative experience there. I've had maybe one experience that was kind of quasi-threatening. Quasi? Yeah. We had a crowd kind of turn on us and throw rocks at us as we were driving away.

That's the one experience. It was like hundreds of experiences. What was that about? Well, we were in Goma in the drc you know and it's just uh it's just a really really chaotic place the place has been run over by civil wars for decades um people are in serious desperation but i think worse than any of that there's a huge culture of um of non-profit organizations and stuff there so i think they're used to kind of

white folks coming in with this very patronizing kind of view. Um, and then we're down there with cameras filming them. And then all of a sudden they realize that we're not paying anyone for this, you know? And, uh, and I think, you know, there's a tendency from people to feel like, well, you're here taking something from us. You're clearly making more money than any of us will ever be able to make. And what the fuck did we get for it? And I can understand that point of view. And how did it turn into them throwing rocks at you guys?

No, again, they realized that we weren't going to be paying for any of this. Our security team was like, hey, hey guys time to get in the car as soon as you get in the car and you're leaving it's like oh these fucking assholes man they just came down here got not all their footage and they're gonna pack up and go back to their nice hotel you know um but that's the one experience and like a lot of experiences there you know for the most part i found people that are like incredibly gracious you know i find it You know, for the most part, I found people there like incredibly gracious. You know, I find it to be one of the most hopeful places, honestly. My day-to-day experiences in Africa, I saw people who were working their asses off on a grassroots level. Like some of the most, you know, some of the most like dynamic grassroots capitalism that I've ever seen.

And people who will literally find any way to scrape out an existence and a living, you know, this is not like, this is not a lazy culture. This is a culture that will fight through anything, you know, go to Lagos and Lagos is one of the most dynamic cities I've ever been in. There's constantly moving, constantly people trying to make money, constantly people trying to find a niche, you know, in a city of 20 million people, you know, so I find a lot of beauty in just like raw human endeavor there. And I think that, you know, if they can clear some of the like obvious stumbling blocks that they have in terms of corruption, in terms of, you know, foreign

pressure, um, in terms of, you know, manipulation of markets, um, there's, there's tremendous promise there. I mean, like just, just in terms of the, just, um, the internet and technology sector in Africa is absolutely booming. You have kids that come in from the villages on the streets of Lagos who can take your computer apart and rebuild it by hand. Self-taught. And all of that potential is there to be tapped, you know, and they're starting to, you know, so I guess I just find it a hopeful place. That's amazing that you only had one bad experience. Only one, only one. But I can say that about traveling the world kind of in general. I mean, we've been in a number of, you know, relatively hot zones. I mean, we never did active conflict because

we don't, you know, make that kind of show. But, you know, being in places like Gaza or the DRC or, you know, I can count on one hand and, you know, in many, many years of doing this, you know, the number of times that I actually felt threatened by someone, you know, I've found that the most likely scenario is you're going to get like accosted by a sandwich, you know, the number of times that I actually felt threatened by someone, you know, I've found that the most likely scenario is you're going to get like accosted by a sandwich, you know, or someone trying to, you know, introduce you to their kids, you know, or take a selfie with you. And that's, that's the world that I know. I don't really understand the world that we see, you know, on TV here, man. Cause that's not, that's not my experience, you know, you know, a lot of good people. And again, getting back to Tony, on TV here, man, because that's not my experience, you know. Right. You know, a lot of good people.

And, again, getting back to Tony, I think that, you know, that's the legacy, right? I think that he really showed people that. That is a problem with our view of the world is that if it doesn't look scary, they're not going to show it to you. No. Because if it's not dangerous, I mean, other than his show, what else are you seeing on CNN where they're in Africa where it's a good thing? What else are you seeing where people are in Egypt where it's a good thing?

What else are you seeing where people are interacting with people on the street and there's not some sort of a murder story or rape story or something awful? Yeah. or something awful. Yeah. I mean, I think you're starting to see it a little bit, but mostly you're seeing it on CNN's Africa network. There you're starting to see them covering stories about entrepreneurs and positive aspects, building economies. But it's a real problem in our view of the world for people that don't travel.

Well, listen, Africa just simply doesn't make news in the United States. I mean, it takes a genocide. Well, all I've been hearing about Africa lately is what's going on with white farmers in South Africa, which is very scary stuff where people are encouraging people to attack white farmers. There's a whole lot of sociopolitical and economic shit that goes on with that

that I'm not even going to pretend I understand, but that's what you hear about. You don't hear about good things. You hear about how many farmers have been murdered in their homes. Well, that's a shame, man, because you go there and most of what I find going on there is positive. You know, listen, there's a lot of pain. There's a lot of suffering.

There's a lot of bad shit that happens there too, obviously. I'm not going to deny that, you know, but, you know, we don't hear the good stuff. Did you have a good, did you have like a place where you enjoyed traveling to the most? You know, I don't think really because, you know, to me, this is another kind of like real lesson of the show. You know, I think we got to a place where we're finding something kind of everywhere.

You know, there's some places that I didn't enjoy as much. But I think most places we found something that was like, oh, this is awesome. What was the one place where you're like, eh, I'm not going back here again? I don't want to say. Okay. Keep it positive, people. Keep it positive. Let's just say it's a highly militarized state with deep problems and deep divides on both sides. Yeah.

Okay. And a lot of beautiful people on both sides. But I think this was something we would encounter a lot as we kind of progressed in the show. I mean, my dad would say it to me all the time he's like well where where are you guys gonna go now you know i've been everywhere it's just like yeah but i think we started to learn that you could like really point the camera kind of anywhere i think a big one for me was like doing this west virginia show last year which is a place that had always been like really close to my heart. Like I grew up there when I was a kid, um, you know, it's a place that has been, I think like deeply misrepresented again,

and other places have been deeply misrepresented in the media, you know? Um, and, uh, but you know, we got like, I got into town on the scout there and it's like, there's no restaurant, you know, it's not just that there's no restaurant, like in the town. There's like two restaurants in the county, you know, and I remember having this moment of like, can we do this? Does this work? Like, will Tony respond to this and we make a show here? And within two days, he was like big, you know, very deeply heartfelt statements about the place. Really loved it, you know, and it was kind of another aha moment where you're like, oh, yeah, of course. Because there's something everywhere. The human story is everywhere.

And you can dig into it wherever you go. The fundamentals of that don't change. And I think that, you know, what he did was so cleanly and clearly and so free of bullshit cut to the core of those very fundamental kind of human stories you know and um anyways it worked well we won an emmy two nights ago for it so yeah posthumous emmys are always odd right yeah that was a that was a rough night are always odd right yeah that was a that was a rough night yeah um when he would get the rough cut would it be length of the actual show and then he would add narration to it did he have any say in the editing process huge i mean so i think that's something important too about who he was you know um i mean like everyone calls him a chef. He wasn't a chef. Like he was a producer.

He was a television producer. He would pick the locations. He would pick the subject matter for the most part. There were a couple. How did you guys work it out? Like say if you were going to go to Puerto Rico or something like that, how would you make the decisions? How would you decide where to go and why?

Okay. Well, I'll take you through the whole process. So Tony would come up with a list of places that he was interested in going. And maybe we would throw a couple in, like I mentioned the West Virginia show, you know, be like, but this is my list. Right. And then he'd write like a brief on each one. I'm interested in X, you know, like I'm interested in Singapore.

It's Disneyland with the death penalty. Right. And you're like, okay, so there's like, there's kind of a basic operating thesis. Right. Like, I'm interested in Singapore. It's Disneyland with the death penalty, right? And you're like, okay, so there's kind of a basic operating thesis, right? We can kind of go in and look at this place from this perspective. And some of them didn't. The Lagos episode, for example, you'd just be like, we haven't been to Nigeria. Let's go to Nigeria, you know. And then so we would start doing research on what that was just big kind of, you know, 30,000 foot macro,

you know, what is this environment like? What are the interesting things? What are the stories that have been told about this place? And how can we look at it from a different angle? So like the Nigeria one, we kind of focused in on, like I said, you know, grassroots capitalism, DIY entrepreneurship, you know, street level, you know, the street level kind of dynamics of the economy, you know, and that became like, we could see ways to kind of make a beautiful, like human story out of those elements so i'd end up putting down to him probably in like a two or three page thing like here are my ideas you know here's what i found based on what you were interested in here's some other things i found this is the way we'd kind of like to go about it and he'd either be like yeah or no you know and from that point um we just get

heavy into research write a treatment you know um and break that story into like six acts right and then look for scenes to kind of fill and articulate that story so it seems like you know i have this great economist i know we're going to need an economist at some point, but we got to put, you know, economists are kind of boring by nature. So we got to put him somewhere more dynamic, or there's this really interesting computer market that has a lot of energy. So let's put the economist there, they can walk around, there's a great restaurant in the corner there. So like, here's some elements we can put together. That's a scene in a act of the show so you put all that stuff together in treatment form send it to tony usually minimal notes from

him you know um and then uh and then we'd go out scout shoot the show you know how weird is it shooting in a restaurant with camera people standing over the table? I think we got really good at not taking over the environment, you know. So I don't, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that because. How do you do it? How do we do it? Say if you and I are having a conversation

at dinner and we're being filmed. Right. Would they be as close as Jamie is right there? The cameras? Yeah. Closer than that. Right on top of you. Yeah, they're pretty close. Butie is right there the cameras yeah closer than that right on top of you yeah they're pretty close but you know they're standing yeah but we wouldn't use like there were there were rules to that right because like we're a documentary show we can't just go in and just like completely take over some place or take over some village or scare the shit out of local people or you know what i mean like we, we got to go in with some deftness, you know?

So we would go in early and we would light so that the characters, Tony, aren't really seeing us screw around with lighting, stuff like that. That's all kind of in place. Put the cameras in there. No sound guy, no big booms. Sit the rest of the crew down.

Are they wearing wireless mics? Yeah, exactly. booms sit the rest of the crew down are they wearing wireless mics yeah exactly and then and then uh and then fill in local people in the rest of the restaurant make sure that there are people who actually go to that restaurant in the restaurant make sure that feels like alive not like full of you know extras like right mim dialogue. And are they carrying large cameras? Like, how big are the cameras they're carrying? They're big cameras. Like, regular, big old production cameras, heavy on the shoulders?

Yeah. Like you guys would use a mediator? Yeah. Not so, yeah. You know, but, again, you know, it's two guys standing there with cameras that have been traveling, at least from Tony's perspective, have been traveling with Tony for a long time, you know? This is like having two more, you know, friends at the meal.

Right. In terms of with the sidekicks, you know, I think we learned early on that, like, you gotta, like, you gotta go up, you gotta introduce yourself, you gotta smile, you gotta laugh, you gotta be able to be self-deprecating, make them feel comfortable, like, you're there to ask them questions, not to tell them who they are, you know? And, um, I don't know, man. I have to say, we traveled all over the place. A lot of people had never been on camera before.

It largely worked, you know. So we must have been doing something right. Was there ever a time you were in a restaurant and people were pissed off that there was people standing there with cameras filming a table? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, that's pretty easy. You know, someone gets pissed off and they wave you off.

Okay, cool. Sorry. You know, no worries. You know, it never really escalated. You know, at least for me, it never escalated. You had a view of the world by doing that show and traveling the way you did that is less than 1% of the population is ever going to experience. Probably less than 1% of 1%. is ever going to experience probably less than one percent of one percent yeah i would say for sure yeah yeah i mean it's got to be an incredibly

enriching journey for you yeah hugely i mean usually there's i mean it's i don't know it's very simple there's before and there's after and it's two different people really because just all the data you had to take in the view of the world changes it gets bigger it becomes a much bigger place it does that's what you know that's exactly right and that's what's really interesting i tell people this too they'd be like oh well you know you've been all these places you know like yeah but the the world doesn't work like that it doesn't it's not like the more places you go the smaller the world feels feels. The more places you go, the bigger the world feels. It just feels bigger and bigger and bigger because you realize

there's this country, there's this county in this country, there's this town in this county, there's this street, there's all these other streets, there's all these other people. Our shows were just a sliver of a place, a tiny little sliver.

You can go into Lagos. We'd go back to Lagos and make 10 more shows, each one of them completely unique and individual. The world's a big place, a lot of shit going on. Yeah. Now, they're going to keep airing these shows, right? I mean, how long are they going to do this for? How many did they have, all told? How many did they have all told?

How many they did? Five seasons? Five seasons, 18. I guess we're getting near 100 shows. I've never counted. I don't really know. A lot of shows, though. Yeah, they'll keep airing them.

I have it on my DVR. So they'll occasionally run these marathons. And I'll go to my DVR and there's like 20 new shows. Yeah. I watched a few of them the other night. The first time I watched it in a while, I posted a thing on Instagram too about it because I was real reluctant to watch it after he died, but then I went on a bender. I watched like – I binged. I watched like three of them in a night.

I was like, God damn, what a good show it was. Yeah. Yeah, it was good, man. You guys nailed it. Yeah. And you really, you should be really proud. Thanks, man. Yeah.

And I'm, you know, I'm actually still working on one right now, which is maybe the weirdest experience, you know. You were asking about process before, you know. After we'd shoot it, that's when Tony really came in, you know. What do you process before you know after we'd shoot it that's when tony really came in what do you do if he's not there for narration well that's the that's the thing who narrates it you know i'm just not i'm not gonna replace tony so no narration no yeah oh i mean we have our sidekicks uh talking to him we have his dialogue in the field you know but who's gonna step in and do that voice and how offensive would it be if we did that it would have to be someone who is so close to him

that it didn't didn't freak everybody out it had to be someone who was on the show a thousand times was just there with them always yeah that person doesn't really exist it doesn't yeah there's no you know there's no voice there. When you would give him a rough cut, say, like I said, a show on Puerto Rico or what have you, so he would take that, he would watch it, and then he would start writing? Exactly.

So, yeah, getting back to process, you'd like, I'd send him an act, right, once it was in rough cut form, and then you get his notes back. That was always kind of a terrifying moment, too, because you're like, dude, you've worked on this thing a lot. You send it off to him. He can go one way or another, man.

I got gutted a few times, man. But I got a couple that were like out fucking standing, and that's all the notes he had. But you'd send him basically scratch writing. So you'd say like, here's what we're thinking. This kind of idea goes here, this kind of idea goes here. And then he would actually write it. You know, and you get that writing back.

How long would it take for him to do something like that? Oh, he ripped that shit out, man. Yeah. He was fast. And that's the thing too. I never, you know, there was never an email or a text that he didn't get back to you. He was no slouch, man. He like, he was sharp. He was on it. He'd get back to you he was no slouch man he like he was sharp he was on

it he'd get back to you he'd do the work you know it um well he took pride in that yeah he would talk about a lot of doing doing the work yeah yeah yeah and he did i mean there's another that's another another thing that was so delightful about it you? It's not like you're having to drag some, you know, carcass along and, you know, prop him up in front of the camera and, you know, he was into it, man. And, like, he had total ownership, total control. Awesome, incredible creative ideas,

incredible creative power. Like, he was in, you know? And no show was like, nah, fuck it, you know, we no show was like, nah, fuck it. You know, we can just like kind of slip by on this one. You know, every show is important. And when they, you know, when they weren't working, he was pissed, you know, and great. You know, I think the biggest thing that I miss in this process of cutting this Texas show that I'm doing now is not having the pressure of him looking at it and being like, dude, you know, no, man, this ain't working. You know, that was a real benefit to us.

When did he start smoking again? You know, it's the weirdest thing, man. I didn't know, I didn't really know he was smoking again. And then the Puglia show came out and I just saw him light up on camera. I was like, oh, shit. I guess we're doing this again. And then a couple of my shows at the end, he'd start just lighting up on camera. And that was always no-go territory.

In the past, when he was smoking we would like stop shooting you know um all of a sudden he was just lighting up right on camera and i don't know shocked the shit out of me you know i kind of looked around the crew like what do we do like well i was shocked because he said that when his daughter was born is when he decided to stop smoking because he realized that you know he had something else to live for and that he you know he didn't want to be on some cancer bed yeah fucking iron lung having his daughter visit him yeah so he quit yeah it was a bummer when he started again. That's, you know. Did he stop going to jiu-jitsu? I don't know.

I guess it wasn't as frequent during the end, you know, during the last few episodes. You know, we stopped kind of having to find gyms when we'd offer, you know, and be like, no, I'm, you know, cool. So I think the last couple of shows are probably like that for me. I was like, you want us to find a local gym and be like,

nah, you know, I'm good, man. So was it within the last year or so or less, less than a year? I'd say last year or so. Yeah.

So that's when the smoking started? I guess maybe a little earlier than that, yeah. It's a bummer when you see someone quit and then go back on. That is one of the weirder things of our culture. Because he got through, I mean, he got through the really hard part, you know. He had a couple years under his belt, and he looked great he was you know really uh he was doing really well yeah with that yeah where do you go from here mo where do i go from here oh shit i'm you know um i you know tony gate i think gave us like tremendous tools to, you know, for how we look at the world and like how we will continue to go on looking at

the world. And, um, I don't know exactly what show I'll do, but I know it will continue that kind of ethos, you know? And, um, I get, you know, I feel like I have this very powerful kind of, um, I don't know, like I said, set of tools now that he kind of handed us to go on and keep doing, I guess, this work. Isn't the problem with this work that you need someone like him? You kind of need either a Rinella,

who's a very unique person, and in many ways similar. Not self-destructive at all, but really meticulous about his work, and a very good writer as well, and his narration. One of the things that separates Meteater from any other show

is that Steve has this eloquent narration. Yeah, exactly. That goes through it. And it makes you realize like our perception of what it means to be a hunter is based on stereotypes, negative stereotypes. This is the best example. This is a really well-read, brilliant man who has a great passion for the outdoors and for public lands and for wildlife and for consuming wildlife and this adventure of pursuing it and eating it and cooking it and showing you the art of cooking it.

You know, you wouldn't be able to make meat eater with pig man. Dude, I can't even talk about Pigman. He's such a fucking guy. A porkalypse? Yeah. I mean, come on, dude. Well, unfortunately, I enjoyed that. For all the wrong reasons.

You see, there's justification to enjoying a porkalypse. First of all all because you got ted nugent with a machine gun in the helicopter okay and then two you have this real wild pig epidemic it's a legitimate epidemic in texas and they don't know how to eradicate them i get all that and putting it on television on a hunting show it's not really hunting it's assassinating out of a helicopter and they're laughing. It's that part. It's the mentality behind it.

Listen, I'm not saying don't have fun on a hunt. I've had a lot of fun on hunts. I have a great time on a hunt. I don't know. There's something about just firing off a thousand rounds, cackling out of the side of a helicopter. Yeah. Laughing when you see pigs do somersaults because you headshot at them from a sideways helicopter.

You know, I think it's one of the things I really loved about Steve. Or love still. That I still love about Steve. You know, a really poignant episode on that show for me was when we went up to Alaska and we're, uh, hunting black bear and, uh, and he decided not to take a shot. Yeah. You know, I mean, here's a guy that loves animals as much as he loves hunting animals, as much as he loves conservation of animals, as much as he loves the knowledge and the science behind animals in the natural world you know um that to me was appealing like that's something i can sink my teeth into and dedicate my efforts towards you know furthering and working

on yeah it was a crazy show man i mean i talked to him about it and his sort of idea of why he didn't do it was so interesting yeah he. He just kind of went with his feelings. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. To have a hunting show where you have a bear, which is what you're looking for, lined up in your scope. Yeah. And you go, I don't want to do it. I'm not feeling it.

And I loved what he said, too, at the time. So he was like, I'm not saying I'm never going to shoot a bear again. I just don't want to shoot a bear today. And I'm not going to. And that was a big moment, man. Well, that's the words coming out of his mouth. ever going to shoot a bear again. I just don't want to shoot a bear today. And I'm not gonna. And that, that was a big moment, man. Well, that's the words coming out of his mouth. How conflicted must his perception be to realize that, okay, I'm filming a show where I'm actively hunting bears. There's camera people there. There's a budget behind it. Now I have to make a show about my decision to not hunt a bear. And then next week I'm going to go hunt something

else. And then the next week I'm going to go hunt something else. And then the next week I'm going to go hunt something else. Yeah. But I mean that, like his ability to, to like admit and kind of understand that the human being is a complex animal with complex emotions and that, you know, this idea of just kind of uniform direction of the human mind is like a total

fallacy, man. We're all over the fucking place, you know? And like, I don't know. I really bought in at that moment. If I hadn't before, which I completely kind of had, but I really bought in at that moment. I was like, this is a guy I can always stand behind, you know?

One of my favorite episodes. It was brave. It was brave because you realize this is on the Sportsman's Network. Yeah. So the Sportsman's Channel and they have only hunting shows. Oh, man. And then he's on a hunting show with you got all these people that are watching that would kill to be on a hunt like that. Yeah.

And they have a big old bear in their sights, what they want. Yeah. And they're thinking we're going to see Steve shoot this. Then we're going to see him cook up a bear roast. And you're going to see stewed carrots and onions and potatoes. And this is going to see Steve shoot this. Then we're going to see him cook up a bear roast. And we're going to see stewed carrots and onions and potatoes. And this is going to be amazing. And he's going, no, I don't want to do it. Yeah.

And everybody's like, what? Yeah. And we were really nervous, I remember, when the episode came out. And we had done a few things before. We had failed at a hunt. We had taken shots that missed in the hunt failed. We had gone on a mountain lion hunt where we never even saw a hunt like you know we had taken shots that missed in the hunt failed we had gone on a mountain lion hunt where we never even saw a mountain lion those were all kind of moments where like will this work can we put this out in the hunting community will they respond to it

and every one of those had kind of like hit or worked and i think people actually appreciate it because of the the realism of it you know that one was like can you can you put out a show where there's a perfectly legitimate shot at again i mean a very high percentage shot at uh at exactly the animal we're going after and the choice to not take the shot you know how are people going to respond overwhelmingly people were like hey man i know I know exactly how you feel. You know, it was incredible. You know, it was like, it was like this moment and I, and I don't mean to bag on anyone else, man. And I don't know that much about hunting shows before, you know, I know that a lot of what I saw, I'd found to be really, really either uninteresting or just fucking stupid, you know,

really either uninteresting or just fucking stupid, you know, but, um, you know, I think that it was like this moment where like, Oh my God, like all these, you know, this, this industry is like missed a big, big part of who the people, you know, um, that are paying attention here are, you know, um, you don't have to just go like sell arrowheads, you know, and, you know, and, you know, cackle hanging out of a helicopter. Yeah. Well, that's worst case example. But for some hunting people that are like sort of deeply indoctrinated into the world of hunting, they don't mind that show. No. They don't mind any of the shows. Listen, man.

More power to them. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to be or what to like or what to appreciate. There's just not a lot of guys like Steve. I mean, do you know Donnie Vincent? No. Similar guy. Similar guy. Really, really smart guy. Yeah. And just great reverence for the outdoors and for

wildlife. And, you know, he does everything self-filmed and sells the yeah that's cool films online and he's smart you know he knows he knows what he's doing yeah cool man but he um you know steve he's sort of changed the perception of hunting for a lot of people that have become fans of his show the same way that tony sort of changed the perceptions of food and of cooking. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I'm not like Terrence Malick or something, but like, I got a lot to offer and I got a, you know, I got a career. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna dedicate my career to these people unless I really, really believe in what they're doing. And like, that's, those are two cases of people that I, like, really believe in, man.

Because they were willing to look at an industry or look at something that they loved and say, like, well, I have a completely different take on it, you know, and I'm willing to put that out there at whatever cost. And in both cases it worked because they're both super smart, really capable people. I don't think I've ever met really anyone more capable than Steve in a lot of ways. That guy is kind of a force of nature. He's a very unique person. And the amount of stuff that he's able to get done as well, written a bunch of books and constantly doing these shows. And I don't just, the enthusiasm to, I mean, he's not just going to these places and staying in hotels.

He's sleeping on the ground outside in these, you know, really fucked up places. And you know about a fog knack, what happened with the bear attack. I do, yeah. Yeah, which is just, if anybody doesn't know, there's a two-part series on the Meat Eater podcast about a Fognac, which is an island in Alaska where they have enormous brown bears. And they got charged and attacked by a fucking 11-foot bear, which is just so crazy to think of and the description of it and and they made this podcast right after the fact so it's fresh in everyone's mind it is amazing it's amazing it's an amazing story it's also amazing it's not the first time he's been charged and uh you know by a number of different animals he was run over by a moose yeah you know, by a number of different animals. He was run over by a moose. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. But I will say that, I mean, Steve also is like physically one of the toughest people I've ever met. I mean, I watched him set beaver traps one time in, I mean, breaking ice with his bare fist to set beaver traps for hours. You know, put your hand in that water for, put your hand in that water for two minutes, you know, just that's someone who does not have trouble, you know, enduring a lot of physical discomfort, you know, and, and that was what was kind of exciting about the show too, is he was really like willing to integrate that stuff into the experience, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't like we need to go out we need the perfect kill shot

we need to set this up when you set that it was kind of like well we're just gonna go out and we're gonna see what happens we're gonna kind of grit our teeth and bear it no matter what you know the where the journey takes us and we're just gonna document that. That was like super exciting television to make at that time too. I've done five episodes of his show, and we struck out on two of them. It used to be they would never air shows like that. No. I don't know that they aired. I'm sure a lot of people will be like, yeah, dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

But I'm not sure that they aired a lot of failed hunts before we started doing it. I don't think they did. I don't think it was a popular thing. It might have been done before, but not to the extent the way Steve did. One of my favorite episodes, he never shot a deer. It was talking about his dad. Oh, that's brilliant. It's a great episode. Beautiful episode. I think that was Alaska as well. Wasn't it?

I don't think it was. Wasn't it a black tail hunt? Maybe it was in Alaska. No, I feel like it was a coos deer hunt. I think you're right. In Arizona. And most of the show was him using a spotting scope and binoculars looking for deer and talking about his relationship with his father. Yeah.

And there was no music. Yeah. And whoever edited it and put it together was brilliant. Yeah. It was perfect. Yeah. Because it was, you know, some heavy, heavy duty shit. And it sort of makes you realize like, oh, this is where you came from.

You came from a hard man. Yeah. Yeah. Taskmaster. Yeah. You know. That was a brilliant episode. It's also like, I think, you know, one of the things I like so much about that episode too is it feels so much like the process of hunting.

Yeah. You know, it's long hours with people really kind of getting deep into stuff and that you know i did an episode with him too i it hasn't aired yet um but it was a lot of that let it like just talking about life you know yeah i really enjoyed that part of being out with him too spending those long hours just sitting glassing hills like talking about our families and you know plans for the future yeah and uh that was nice man i listen i feel i can't tell you how lucky i feel in my career to like land it with these folks you know yeah that's a great one too right there those two those two guys yeah but like we were saying, it's real hard to find those kind of guys.

There's not a lot of those kind of guys out there. There's not. I think it feels like there's more of what they call premium content now on TV. There's more people looking for things that have more substance to it. But, um, what do you think has happened? What's the shift? I, you know, I got, I guess I don't really know. I think, um, I'm not in development, so I'm not really in a, you know, a place to say, but, um, I get the feeling that outlets like Netflix have really shaken up the paradigm. I think the internet in general has changed people's expectations.

And uncensored content is so prevalent and so much more attractive. It's just changed the way people absorb things. Yeah. I think, you know, listen, think you know listen netflix they've spent a lot of money they've taken a lot of swings not all of those swings have hit but they've been pretty brave in terms of like how much and how what a wide range of content they've been willing to take on yeah and uh and so you know again maybe that's you know part of what's driving it um i know i'm i've been lucky enough to land at like i said before like 0.0 with chris and lydia there and

their ethos of you know making content that like has a purpose you know that that works towards bettering you know the world or showing people something about the world or connecting people. And that's probably been the greatest gift. That's what brought me to Tony. That's what brought me to Steve. There's a connection with them. So there are people out there

that want to use the medium to... Yeah. There are idealistic suckers out there. Well, that's what creates that satisfying art. I mean, the stuff that we're talking about, you're not going to get that any other way.

You have to have those people with that deep reverence for the subject that they're discussing and the subject that's being portrayed. Yeah. Yeah. And now again, more and more we have the outlets to put that on the air. And you think back to the days when it was three networks, you know. Tony's never getting on the air.

Never. You know. We're never going to find out about him. I mean, he'll have to stick with being an author. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know. It's in a lot of ways it's the Wild West now, but in a lot of ways that's a good thing.

Oh, it's a good thing. I mean, it's the Wild West now, but in a lot of ways, that's a good thing. Oh, it's a good thing. I mean, it's a great thing for me. Yeah. Nobody would ever give me a fucking show. It wouldn't have been that crazy. This kind of show where I go, so what do you want to do? I just want to talk to whoever I want to. Who's going to schedule it?

Me. What are you going to do on the show? Whatever. Are you going to have a format of discussion? Nope. But in a lot of ways, that's what meat eater was in the hunting version. It was like, what's the concept of the show? Well, I'm going to hunt the shit that I want to hunt.

We're going to go to places I want to go and then hang out with the people I want to hang out with. Well, are you going to shoot animals? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It's hunting. I can't tell you. We're going to try. And it was, man, again, it was great to be able to do that and like have that freedom.

And I think CNN in a lot of ways, like, you know, and Tony, that, you know, to have the freedom to be like, well, here's a, you know, 60-year-old, you know, ex-heroin addict. We're going to do whatever he wants to do. We're going to go wherever in the world he wants to go, and we're just going to kind of let him talk. Well, the Seattle one, they let him get blasted. I mean, he was smoking weed on camera, smoking weed through the show, going visiting growers, and then going to restaurants high as fuck. You could tell he was high, and he was talking about how he'd been smoking all day.

He's on camera talking about being baked with two people who are growers, the brother and sister, who are hilarious. They're awesome. They were hilarious. And they were laughing with him. And it's like the whole family's involved. That was a great episode, man. And it also, fuck, god damn, that episode got me hungry.

Because you see all the seafood in Seattle and all the delicious food. Insane, man. a great episode man and it also fuck god damn that episode got me hungry because you like you see all the seafood in seattle and all the delicious food man i want to get up to seattle again yeah i haven't been up there no that was a good episode um and those those folks were awesome yeah you know i went out to that place and i filmed that and it's like they were like it was like dream scenario i mean that kid like he he put together their names i'm trying to remember um see if you can find it just to give them a shout out uh seattle episode um growers uh it'll come up african-american family but um they were awesome they were awesome and like you know that was all that kid he had like

put together a pdf like showed his family and they were like cool let's sink everything into and they did and i went out to their place and they were just sitting back laughing you know like counting stacks of money you know and all smoking big joints. Like the grandma's there smoking a huge doobie. And she was like quality control tester. That's hilarious. All these kids working for them and stuff, like rolling joints and making oil. And it was just like, man, good for you guys.

Like way to go. Isn't that the way kind of American entrepreneurship is supposed to work? Yeah. You know? Well, it's just rare that something comes along that's as controversial but yet also lucrative as marijuana sales. And then all of a sudden it's legal in the state. Totally.

And you're like, oh, okay. Well, so we could just do this? Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you what's funny. The controversial part of that episode was not Tony smoking because that's legal and it's perfectly, you know, it's fine for him to smoke. It was when he handed the joint to me over the camera. That one was a little, I think that was a little tough for some folks to swallow.

Why? Well, because I'm working, you know. Oh, but he's working too. Yeah. Well, geez, you know, I never thought of it that way. I guess he was working. Yeah, he's working too. Yeah. Well, geez, you know, I never thought of it that way. I guess he was working. Yeah, he's working too. I guess it's the idea that you're holding machinery.

Yeah, exactly. The Hollingsworths. That's right. Shout out to the Hollingsworths. Hollingsworth Farm. Hollingsworth Farm. There they are. Yeah, why was it, I guess because maybe they're thinking you're holding a machine that's like

real expensive? I guess because maybe they're thinking you're holding a machine that's like real expensive. I guess, man. Or that – I think they didn't want the perception that we were just like out of – Yeah, partying and out of control in the field. And we weren't, man. We were like – we're professionals. So did CNN have a problem with it? I think maybe there were elements at CNN that might have had a problem.

Someone must have chimed in. But in the end, again, to their credit, in the end, you know, they left us alone. That is the only way to make a good show. As soon as those fucking cooks start coming into the kitchen and pointing at the stew and wanting to add ingredients. Yeah, but that's the whole industry, man. I know. That's a problem. It's unbelievable.

Again, that's why this was so refreshing, you know? It's like, how rare is it not to have people just breathing down your neck all the time? And the same thing with Meat Eater. Because Steve Rinella came from The Wild Within, which was a show. That's where I met him. I met him from that show, and I had him on my podcast. But that show was a fucking goat rope. He was telling me that they were trying to let animals loose out of cages and then he would shoot them.

Those were the early days when they were like, there were line items in for like Animal Wrangler. And like, but, you know, to everyone's credit and like very quickly at 0.0 and very quickly with Steve, they were like, dude, we don't do that. Like, we're not doing that. But it's hilarious that a producer actually came up with that idea. They're like, oh, I know how to do this. Producer didn't, you know, it sounds like a producer came up with that idea. That're like, oh, I know how to do this. Producer didn't, you know, it sounds like a producer came up with that idea. That was just a playbook on how you make TV, you know?

They're just pulling from the playbook. For sure. You know, I mean. Reality air quotes TV. Yeah, exactly. You know, that show, I mean, listen, there's a lot of huge mistakes in that show and a lot of bullshit.

Though it was, I thought it was like a pretty revolutionary and like pretty interesting show in a lot of bullshit um though it was i thought it was like a pretty revolutionary and like pretty interesting show in a lot of ways um there's a lot of truth in there too you know we did end up going out and just like going on hunts you know this is a very high pressure situation you know yeah but also like this is very typical of kind of like that i think the way that television works is like still as we're out in the field, there's still at the network a lot of kind of infighting and jostling about what the show actually was. Is this a, you know, is this history? Is this, you know, reality? Is this, you know.

Subsistence. Yeah, you know. I remember at one point someone saying something like, well, it's not a hunting show, you know subsistence yeah you know i i remember at one point someone saying something like well it's not a hunting show you know and we're like i'm like in the field covered in fucking moose blood you know and i'm like it looks like a hunting show from where i'm standing you know like i don't know what to say what does that mean they're saying it's not a hunting show yeah i think that there's you know i don't remember who that was but i i think that they're very leery of this idea of like a hunting show and what a hunting show was.

Well, meanwhile, those subsistence shows that they have, they're all hunting and gathering. I mean, that is like one of the more popular shows on all of these cable channels where these people that live in Alaska and they're trapping. Now it is. Yeah, it's crazy. It wasn't then. I know, it's crazy. I mean't then. I know, it's crazy. I mean, that genre really exploded after that. Yeah.

And I think there's something very different, you know, when you take like, you know, when you take like, I don't know, for some reason, when you take Steve, like New York City intellectual and you put him in that environment, I think there was a different reaction than like, oh, these people live in Alaska. It's like watching pygmies hunt, you know? This is the natural environment. And that's what they do. And so hunting is acceptable under those conditions.

It's like why isn't it acceptable for someone who lives it as like a base philosophy in their life, give them a chance to explain why. But he lives in Brooklyn. Why would you ever hunt if you live in Brooklyn? You know? You just go to the shopping center. Yeah. Yeah. There must be something wrong with you if you enjoy it.

Right. Exactly. And I think that's like, I think that's part of the mentality. Well, Tony addressed that on the show, too. You know, I remember one of the first times Tony shot a deer on the show, and then they cooked it at that same guy's restaurant. Yep. Exactly.

Marco Pierre White. Yeah. Yep. At his restaurant. Yep. on the show and then they cooked it at that same guy's restaurant yep exactly marco yeah at his restaurant yeah and they shot a deer and marco put the blood on tony's head yeah exactly you're supposed to do when you get your first kill yeah and then um they went and cooked it and it was uh there was a lot of that there was there was one time where he shot a pig at point blank range with a pistol yes and i was like wow they put that on tv that was a big that was a big moment for him he talked about that a lot yeah yeah yeah so well i mean uh he um that was cajun country right yeah and um i think that he i think he i think the story goes

that he like he goes they asked him to kill the pig, and he goes up and just very coldly double taps the pig in the head. And I think he says there's just this moment of silence amongst the crowd. Like, oh, geez, man. Why is that? Like, that was cold, dude. What did they expect? I don't know. dude what do they expect I don't know but he but he was like he he would talk about it as if like a gasp came up from the crowd it was like geez wow you know the double tap you know like it's

like a mob hit or something yeah I think one's enough for a pig I don't know man blank range I've seen animals shot in the head though though, that could have used another one. Really? Yeah. Well, I think especially, geez. I've seen a couple pigs go real ugly. Double tap is totally acceptable to me because when a pig goes bad, it's not pleasant for anyone, man. Yeah. Well, it's also, you don't want an animal ever to suffer.

If you see it still alive, put another one in it absolutely that's always yeah bow hunting rifle hunting yeah if it's still standing put another one in it yeah yeah or suffering in any way yeah i mean i think that's you know um you know that's like kind of a responsibility you take on yourself when you decide to hunt. And for me, when I made that decision, I've been on two hunts now with Steve. I've shot two deer. That was a very clear kind of aspect of it. I was like, well, I'm taking responsibility now not only for this animal's life, but for this animal's pain and suffering and the consequences of my actions, you know? So I'm not going to be lobbing off any 750 yard, you know, rifle shots because

I'm not qualified to do that. And it's irresponsible to the animal and the potential suffering that you can cause, you know, um, or losing the animal or you know so um you know and i i don't know i guess that all comes from steve really you know at least he's got such strong ethics yeah exactly yeah i mean it became really clear uh with me just knowing him that this guy's he's got a like a very very powerful moral compass yeah core set of beliefs that are just non-negotiable again both of them tony and steve i mean tony's moral compass is rock solid as well you know um any mistakes that he may have made in his life i can honestly say he made them with his heart. He made them with his moral compass

in mind and making his best attempt to, to follow that, you know? Um, and again, that, you know, that was something that was, it was really nice to be around and refreshing to be around, you know? Brian, especially in this world of people with gimmicks trying to become more popular and more well-known. And he had put zero effort into that. Yeah. I mean, just the base philosophy of the show. We're not going to fake anything. We're not going to do second takes.

We're not going to— How about the one where they were throwing frozen octopus in the water? So this is like a really famous story, right? Yeah. The Sicily episode, yeah. He describes that as like maybe the darkest existential moment of his life you know it's like who was throwing the fake the frozen sidekicks so they set up these sidekicks who were like sidekicks of the guy who was running the fishing

operation well i i guess they were the sidekicks in the scene that we're gonna work with tony right so i mean the way you'd set a scene up normally like that is you'd have like a sidekick, someone who's going to talk to Tony and be like, hey, what are we going to do? We're going to go out. And the sidekick would be a local? Yeah, usually like a local or an expert in something or, you know, a fisherman probably in this case.

I wasn't on that show, so I don't know exactly. But, you know, and you'd be like, oh, we're going to go octopus. You know, do you know someone who fishes octopus? Oh, yeah, I know, you I know so-and-so. We'll go out with them, right? But it turned out that they went to this very crowded beach. And I think even in the scene, Tony's like, can we really catch octopus?

There's people swimming. There's kids with snorkel masks. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, everything's going to be fine. Everything's going to be fine. And he got in the water and he starts hearing these plops and looks above him and there's these dead octopus like floating, you know, drifting down to the bottom of the ocean. They're lobbing them in off the boat and then picking them up as if,

I got an octopus. I got one, you know? But I think, again, like most TV shows would do exactly that. Like, where's the octopus wrangler? And for Tony, that was always a completely unacceptable way to make TV. So he had no idea it was going to happen before it started happening? No, no idea. Once it started happening, what did he say?

He left and went to the beach and hit like seven Negronis in a row He was really bummed out about it I saw him two weeks later in Tokyo And he was still talking about it He was like I just had the worst experience of my life Worst thing that ever happened to me Darkest moment of my life

Wow The darkest moment of his life Was someone throwing frozen octopus into the water Yeah because it completely went against The whole ethos of the show you know but he made fun of it on the show listen honestly it's a great scene it's a great it's a great scene largely because sally uh freeman the producer of that is like absolutely brilliant and one of the best directors has ever come through that show so Yeah, it was funny, too. It was funny. Like, his take on realizing that they were throwing frozen octopus into the water.

Yeah, exactly. And, like, how mortified he was by it all. Yeah, totally. But, I mean, again, like, that's the way it was. You know, like, we didn't go in and, like, be like, okay, action, and now cut. Okay, and now we're going to move the cameras and say that again. You know, there's none of that, man. You, I mean, part of the hustle of the show was like.

Being there with the camera. Yeah, you set up the scene and then you press play and you let it go. And what happens, happens. And I'm sorry if you don't get exactly what you hoped out of it. You know, but we're not going to interrupt the world. We're not going to manipulate and control things. That is the difference between really good reality TV. And the word reality TV is so weird.

Like, what does that even mean? Because a lot of these shows, they're scripted. Yeah. They have these loose scenarios, and then they go in, they script them, and they redo things, they reshoot things. It's not reality. It's like shitty acting with people that are not trained. reality it's like shitty acting with people that are not trained and they're edited with people talking in front of the camera like I didn't know what Mo was thinking I thought he was crazy and they cut to you and was like I told Joe what we're gonna do he knew in advance I didn't know shit and then it's like it plays this conflict like the Kardashians I mean they've got it down to a fucking science. A science of moronic television viewing.

I agree. If you could just sit there slack-jawed, they'll keep you locked in. They'll keep you locked in. They'll give you enough edits. They'll show you their tits. And then, boom, you cut to commercial and they're richer. Right. That's reality TV.

What you guys are doing is more documentary television. Yeah, it is. And it's not saying that there's no affect of the convention of television there. Of course there is. But we used to say like, you know, like Vietnam doesn't look like that. But Vietnam doesn't not look like that. You know, there is a refinement in the manipulation in what we're doing because we're choosing these locations. We're choosing to talk to this person. We're choosing to shoot it in a certain way that's

beautiful. We're adding light. You know, it's not exactly the way reality is, but there's a threshold. There's a line which you don't cross. And that line is a morally and ethically established line by Tony and by the crew that says like, there's, there's a place at which it becomes unfair. The manipulation of reality becomes a manipulation that has now become unfair to the people who are viewing this, the people who are there, you know, we're, we're, we've become self-serving, you know, and that's the line that we chose never to cross. You know, we can make it beautiful. line that we chose never to cross. You know, we can make it beautiful. We can refine it down. You know, we can edit it. We can make a compelling show, but it has to, it has to exist within,

under this, you know, within this certain threshold or else what, you know, what the fuck are we doing? You know, it must be a small percentage of people in the business that have that ethic. Incredibly small. And it's incredibly powerful to have people backing you that believe in that. And super rare. I mean, you know, we talk about in like the film industry today, how rare it is to have true auteur final cut directors, you know, left. There's only a handful of them, Largely the studios have taken over that control. Well, equally in the television industry, it's that rare to have people that have the kind of power and control to have the luxury of saying, hey, listen, I have guidelines here and we're not going to cross them. And then have people be like, great, go, go, go it you know and we were able to do that yeah it seems like netflix would be a really good place for something like that it seems like netflix would

be a really good place for a lot of things yeah it seems like that's the that's the best place for like real freedom yeah well i don't know how much is real freedom when they're giving you money anytime someone's giving you money it's always always like you've got to give up. The real way to do it would be to produce it yourself. But in the end, CNN was the best place to do that. And they really did back us up. And they really backed up Tony and that philosophy. And they completely, implicitly understood what we were talking about

when we said we can't do that. Now, was Jeff Zucker, was it his idea? Again, I don't know how the deal came about. I assume so because I think it came in just after that transfer of power. Did he have other places where he was thinking about taking it besides CNN? Again, I don't know, man. I don't know. I mean, you know, it was a really successful show in its own right at that point,

so I'm sure it would have gone somewhere. But that was, I assume it was Jeff Zucker who brought it in, and that was just such a brilliant move. It was like perfect marriage. Perfect marriage, perfect move for Sienna, perfect move for us. Yeah, I thought it was interesting when they were taking a chance on these unscripted television shows, these non-news shows yeah you've seen united shades of america yeah i've had w kamal bell and a couple times he's great guy he's the best man he's a super

super nice guy yeah i did an episode with him in kenya with tony um which will be the premiere of this upcoming season oh okay you know so how many episodes have you guys done that haven't aired yet? Well, I think we'll have seven in this next season. That's the only one of those seven that was actually completed with Tony's narration. The rest of them are incomplete in that respect. And, you know, again, we've been kind of fighting through editing those over the last few months and, and trying to figure out ways to, you know, to do this without completely gutting, you know, right. The method of making this show. Right. So, um,

and then there's a couple of specials in there, like, you know, talking to the crew and stuff like that, you know, so it's going to be a pretty profound season. So once you're done with that, you just start looking at new projects and different things to do? I have a couple, like, assignments already, some projects I'm, like, pretty excited about, you know. I just don't know that they've officially been announced yet. So, uh, you know, but there's good stuff out there and there's, you know, one nice thing in all of this incredibly difficult time is, uh, a lot of people have come to us and said like, listen, we wrote, we always believed in what you guys did, and we'd like you to continue doing it,

and here's a project we have that we think. You know, so hopefully we can continue to make things with the same kind of, you know, it looks like we can. Well, it seems like the success of the show and then the infectious enthusiasm that Tony had and that, you know, so many people who are fans of the show had and that, you know, so many people who are fans of the show had for that style of television. It's just going to lead to more people taking more chances

and doing things like that. I hope so, you know. I think so. I think it's getting better, you know. There will never be another Tony. You won't find that. And I think that's something that people will have to be aware of going forward. You're not going to copy that. He's Tony and that's it. Well, you saw Gordon Ramsay.

They announced some show with him traveling and people immediately just started shitting all over him. Yeah, but he's like, from everything I understand, he's just like a really good guy. Well, the problem is the way he's just like a really good guy. You know? Well, the problem is the way he portrays himself on the show,

the Kitchen Nightmare show. Yeah, sure. He just comes in like an asshole and yells at people that are intimidated by him. That's his shtick. You know, it's his TV shtick.

Yeah. As far as I know, I don't know where Graham's from. I met him. He seemed nice. Yeah. He seemed like a real nice guy.

Yeah, yeah. I met Guy Fieri, too. He was nice. Yeah? He's a nice guy. He's just got crazy hair. I got nothing to give. I don't know He seemed nice. Seemed like a real nice guy. I met Guy Fieri, too. He was nice. He's a nice guy. I got nothing to give. I don't know Guy Fieri. I was told he would relentlessly shit on him. Constantly, man.

Constantly. But he shits on everybody. Did he shit on Martha Ray, too? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I think so. Maybe. He would pull that trigger. All the time. Dude, he'd always make so. Maybe. Yeah. He would pull that trigger all the time. Dude, he'd always make fun of his Lamborghini. And I'm like, I'm kind of like, dude, I want a Lamborghini.

What are you talking about? It's one of those things you're not supposed to have, right? You can have some cool cars. I remember when he did the show with the Queens of the Stone Age and Josh Holm and one of the guys had a 69 Camaro. Yeah, I shot that. That's a badass car. That was a bad car.

But that's an okay to have badass car because it's a classic, because it's got style points. Totally. But I would suggest to Tony that he might want to pick up the Lamborghini because of the traction control. I think Tony would get in big problems. He'd have big problems on the Camaro. Yeah, no, I'm sure.

Yeah, as most people would. Yeah, you got to learn how to drive one of those fucking things. That was a hot rod, man. Yeah. That thing was sick. Yeah. Well, listen, brother, I'm glad we did this. Yeah, me too, man.

I'm glad you reached out. Thank you. I'm glad we decided to get together and talk, you know, give a lot of people insight to what it was like to work with one of my heroes. Yeah, me too. I mean, definitely my hero. All right. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it, man. Thank you. Thanks, dude.