The Joe Rogan Experience - #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

Episode Date: June 20, 2019

Bob Lazar is a physicist who worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and also on reverse engineering extraterrestrial technology at a site called S-4 near the Area 51 Groom Lake operating location. Jeremy Corbell is a contemporary artist and documentary filmmaker. Watch the documentary "Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers" now streaming on Netflix.

Two, one, boom. And we're live. First of all, cheers, gentlemen. Let's have a little toast. Relax. Bob, thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I understand that you've told the story many, many times. You've been grilled many, many times, and it's very stressful for you, so I really, really appreciate your time. For people who don't know the story, there is a documentary. Jeremy Corbell has a documentary out right now. It's called Bob Lazar, Area 51 and UFOs. And Flying Saucers. And Flying Saucers.

Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers. I first heard your story decades ago. I told you last night when we went out to dinner. I've seen pretty much every interview you've ever given. I've followed the story incredibly closely. But for people who don't know the story, let's give them the bullet points. You used to work at Area 51. And Area 51, go ahead.

You went like, huh? Well, you know, we want to be accurate. Area S4. S4, okay. It's about 15 miles south of Area 51. Okay. You worked in, what would you, how would you describe it? I guess within the Area 51 compound.

You can call that a subset of Area 51. And you got that job. Before that, you were working. Before that, I had worked at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico. And you were involved in what kind of work? Nuclear weapon development, physics. I mean, they do everything there. So how do they approach you to say, hey, Bob, why don't you come on out to the Nevada desert?

Well, the way this went down was um at that time it was 1982 i um i put uh a jet engine in my my honda and los alamos put it on the front page of the paper said you know, Los Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this 200-mile-an-hour Honda jet car that I drove to work every day. So I was known in Los Alamos, the guy with the weird car, and, you know, you could hear it from, you know, a mile away. Anyway, the day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day edward teller the father of the hydrogen bomb was giving a lecture down there at the lab and we didn't have much going on that day in our group and i asked if i could go down there and um i went down there early and ed teller was outside leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper. Now, this is a guy out of history, so I introduced myself.

Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there. And we talked for a little while, and it was cool. You know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas. And had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things. And I wanted to get back into the scientific community. I left to start other businesses and that sort of thing. So I sent resumes out, and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting back in the day. Anyway, he remembered me and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG&G.

That's pretty much how it started. So you get a phone call or a letter? What do you get? Well, I got a letter initially and went down for an interview probably a couple times. initially and went down for an interview probably a couple times and it was down at EG&G Special Projects which was at McCarran Airport at that time out in Las Vegas. And did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for? They said it was for I can't remember exactly what they did this was a long time ago but I think it was advanced propulsion or

something like that, something relatively generic. And they said, it's in a remote area. You know, it's going to be some days on, some days off. And, you know, it was kind of a, it was kind of not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off. So it was kind of a, the work schedule would be kind of broken up. And did this seem attractive to you or did it seem weird? No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, you know, working at the nuclear test site

or at the Tonopah test range north of there. That's typically how things go. So you had known about it from the scientific community? Because Area 51 at that time was still classified. No, they didn't say anything about Area 51. Okay. They just said it was in a remote location, and you just know it was up at the test site. Right.

But there was no mention of Area 51 at that time. So they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in Nevada. Nevada, that whole area was, there's been, there's giant chunks of Nevada that people Yeah, there's a big piece of Nevada and it's split up into different areas. There's a nuclear test site. There's Area 51. There's the Tonopah test range north of that. There's little sub areas.

There's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that. So it's all broken up as a, you know, gigantic test area. So take me back to first day on the job. You accept a job. They take you out there. Yeah. It's, um, the first day really, I didn't really get to see a whole lot. The first day was essentially just paperwork.

That's when I flew into area 51 proper and I left uh McCarran airport and flew what they call the Janet flights just um you know a passenger plane from Las Vegas to area 51 and it was really just going through a mountain of paperwork that day uh from security clearances to, God, it was like two or three hours of just solid paperwork. And that was really an uneventful first day. When did things get weird? When did you realize, at what point in time did you say, hey, this is not normal work? Like, this doesn't even seem like it's from this planet. I can't tell you what day that occurred on

because so much time has gone by. The days have kind of fused into one, and I can't separate the days. Was it a slow burn, or was there a moment of recognition? I can't separate the days. Was it a slow burn or was there a moment of recognition? Well, the first inkling I had was when I came in. There's this facility that is at S4.

It's in the side of a mountain. And normally we had pulled in with the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door. This time that I went in, there were hangar doors open. I went into the hangar door and in the hangar door was the disc, the flying saucer that I worked on. I saw it sitting there and we walked by it. It had a little American flag stuck on the side. And I thought, oh my God, this finally explains all the flying saucer stories. This is just an advanced fighter, and this is fucking hilarious. Right. So I went by.

I slid my hand alongside it. I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing. And there was a guy, an armed guard, that followed us in and just said, keep your eyes forward and your hands at your side and just walk in the door. So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird. It was sometime later that I was introduced to my lab partner, Barry, and we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab, and Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner.

So he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things. And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist. So, I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different. What was it? is really something different. What was it? What was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist technologically?

Well, I actually have to back up because there were some briefings that I read before that that certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job, but this was the first be a weird job. But this was the first hands-on thing. This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere, about the size of a basketball on a metal plate. And when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own. Now, this is something that we can't do. We can't produce

any gravity. The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass. But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field. We can't make a gravitational field. Anyway, this device was producing that. And Barry said, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere. And I couldn't. It pushed my hands away, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere. And I couldn't. It pushed my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet. So that was –

So like when you take two magnets and you're trying to press them together and they push against each other? Yeah, kind of cushion feeling. But you can't get them together. The closer you put them, the more they push. And you felt that physically with your hand? Yeah, now there's nothing that does that. And that immediately caught my attention going, wow, this is something else. What was your thought?

Like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce this? Then that connected me to the briefings that I read on the first day at S4 was that, you know, everything that I had read was apparently accurate. What were you reading? It was kind of an overview. This project was to back-engineer the alien craft. And specifically, it was to try and back-engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials. engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials. Now, to do this, they split the project into many different pieces for several reasons. They do this on all classified projects, so nobody has the complete story, but they

compartmentalize everything. Now, we had the power and propulsion system. So what briefings they gave me were like a one- or two-page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft. The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects. You have to know their existence. existence. So, you know, again, everything from metallurgy to, you know, weapon potential, the craft, and these were all, you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just power and propulsion. And it made it very clear that what I read was accurate. So when you're reading that, before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on

what they were describing? If you knew that something like that didn't exist, and they're describing it in the briefings, what did you think you were going to see? I really, I didn't know at the time. I mean, I was reading, I thought, is this some kind of test? To see if you're crazy? Well, not to see if I'm crazy. You know, a lot of times they'll take in real high security jobs.

I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them. Whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone was to leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from. So I read through the documents, but I didn't know if this was part of some kind of test or what, or was it potentially realistic? I mean, I really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being the actual thing that I was going to work on at the time.

How did they turn it on? The reactor? Yeah. The reactor can be turned on or turned off in a lot of different ways. The way Barry showed me, the hemisphere is removed. There's a small tower in the middle. When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates. The reactor shuts down.

It's load sensing. So if there's no load on the reactor at all, it shuts down. When there's a load present on it, it starts up again. Load meaning? You can consider it an electrical load. So although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically, there's no wiring that connects any of the subcomponents together whatsoever. They just have to be in the immediate vicinity. The stuff is borderline magic. And that's essentially where we left it when I left the

project. So there was no progress made? There was some progress. I mean, we did it, you know, when I left the project. So there was no progress made? There was some progress. I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and had a rough idea, we think, of what was going on. But I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time. And, you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me. And I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on. But, you know, Barry alluded to that. A horrific accident like where someone died? Yeah, where somebody died. Because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked?

Yeah, the reactor in particular. But yet he let you touch it. Yeah, I think what they were trying to do was cut into one. Now, they had more than one there. Supposedly, there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was. At the time, remember, they were still doing underground nuclear tests at the test site.

But from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made. Now, this must have been a pretty desperate attempt because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know, analyze something that way. But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something I got to cut into an operating reactor. How many of these things did they have? They had nine craft altogether. i only got hands on with one of them so i can't really say what the how the others operated did you see the other ones yeah at one time and only one time the bay doors that between the hangers were all open and i could see all the way through and were they all exactly the same? No, they were all different. Different shapes? Yeah.

But they were all from somewhere else? Yeah, absolutely. Now, did anyone make any attempt to explain or to tell you where they came from? No, no. No one is the least bit interested in letting everybody know all the facts. They want to give you the minimum information that's necessary to complete your task. So you're not getting the story of where they came from. You're not getting the story of how much progress other people are making. You just focus on the small component.

But they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while? Yeah. When do you think they acquired these? I really couldn't say. I think they've been around for a while. So they bring you into this room. You see this reactor working. You realize this is nothing that, as far as the scientific community at current time, has the ability to create.

We still don't. What is your life like from that moment on is that where everything changes because you do you i mean i would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial whether it's an object or a being something where you can actually absolutely be certain it's not from here. Your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in, is now a different place. Well, this is the only time it became exciting. You know, the rest of the time, it was really an ominous feeling being at work. But at that time, it was exciting. I mean, this was, now I knew we were on the absolute, actually beyond the cutting edge of science, and I was so absolutely excited to be there every single time I was. This was a fantastic opportunity.

However, in short order, it began to concern me. We really have no idea what we're talking about. And the excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical. I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power. And I've given the example before of, you know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time,

and just dropping it in a room, and they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works so they start taking it apart and as soon as they get some of the shielding off the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside now the people have no idea that radiation even exists back then but anybody that comes in to check on them will also drop dead. And, you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with. We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing. The power levels are, like I said, astronomical. It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that. And, you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs. Just try to find out how to make this thing.

So they had had a series, as far as you surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was. And they would bring in new people and like, let's throw Bob at it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how many, but I knew there was certainly one before me. And I knew he died during the analysis of the reactor itself. And you don't know how many have worked on it, and no one gave any indication? This could have been there for 50 years.

It could have been there for five years. When they're giving you instructions, what are they saying? When they're giving you direction, they're showing you all this stuff, what are they saying? Specifically, what are they saying like when they're giving you direction they're showing you all this stuff like what what what are they saying what specifically what are they asking of you well essentially what they ask is is what i said we are just to gather as much information as possible find out how it operates and see if we can duplicate it so but they never told you where it was from they never let you ask questions about where it's from well if the information i read in the briefings was accurate now what i do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate what i read did i mean did jive with reality um in terms of how in terms of

how it was made how what we saw how it operated the materials how it you know turned on and what was discovered uh uh discovered about it i'm sorry the migraine is really making it hard for me to think sorry no we we talked that before the podcast you tell everybody bob was getting a migraine i know you're very stressed out by this which is one of the reasons why i appreciate you doing this. Where was I already? We were talking about the way you explained it. And so there was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

Now, yeah. Now, how they obtained that, I haven't the slightest idea. But it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli star system. It was what they called ZR3. So it was a third planet in that star system. So there was no other information about it other than that's supposedly where the craft came from. Now, is that true? I don't know. I have no way of verifying that. But that was printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor. Now, I looked that stuff up when I went home. And Zeta Reticuli is a binary star, two stars that orbit one another. And it's only visible in the southern hemisphere, and it's about 30 some odd light years away. So that's literally all the information I have about that. I don't know how they found out it came from there and you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation like you were talking about before whether they would yeah yeah to i mean if you ever decided to talk about this they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous right or be able to trace it down. Like, hey, this fax came out and this Lazar guy said it came from Zeta Reticuli, so they knew it would be me.

When you read Zeta Reticuli, were you like, what in the fuck is this? Well, reading all of the stuff, it was what in the fuck is this? You're like, why did I sign up for this? No, no. To me, this was cool. This was interesting. I was just excited to be out in a secure area You know, in the middle of the desert

I said, this is awesome How old were you at the time? I was in my 20s Yeah, so you probably totally geeked out Oh yeah, this was great I mean, I was excited So I didn't care I was reading through everything

So you read through all the Zeta Reticuli thing But then when you see the actual starship with the little American flag sticker on it. Well, that was. Was that later or before? That was before. So before. So you see the thing before and you say, oh, this is American. Wait, what's that before?

Hard, so many years. Yeah, I can't. Either way, it doesn't matter. The days have fused together. It's so hard to separate what happened in each visit to the place. Do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from Zeta Reticuli? Yeah, it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything. It was just like, yeah, okay.

You think it was bullshit? I don't know. You just were like, oh. Now I don't. I mean, because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything. And this was just a bunch of stuff I was reading. And I thought maybe after this, they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember in crazy information. But like I said, when I finally went in with Barry and had hands-on experience with what they were talking about,

it's on a completely different meaning. So there's a plate, there's this thing that looks like half a basketball, and when it's on, you can't come anywhere near it. You can't touch it. Right. What is gravity about that? Like the concept of gravity to most people is gravity is bringing something towards it. Right.

Well, I guess you would say it's anti-gravity. It's gravity shifted 180 degrees it's uh you know anti-gravity and did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into? No, they, well, they knew there was a fuel source in it and they were proficient at making it work. And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place. Everybody will come around it, and they'll poke and prod, and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start, and become proficient at riding it.

But they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on. They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else. And I think that's exactly the state we were at. We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out and know that it makes it work. How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time. I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything.

They could just watch what was going on and make note of it. How long were you there? I'd say about six months or so. And what progress was made while you were there? Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked. And one of them was the base, the square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator, a circular one.

Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators, are just a, you know, long tube essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltage and, you know, radio frequencies till they reach high speeds. But a cyclotron does that in a small circular area. And there's this very heavy element fuel, element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time. But it is now. It is now, yeah.

When did it become on the periodic table now, the way the charts now? You know, I don't remember. Do you remember when they? 2004, Dermstadt, Germany, I think is where they first fabricated four atoms. It lasted 220 milliseconds. The atoms, it's nothing, right? And then it later was discovered a couple more times they could fabricate it. Then they gave it a place then on the periodic chart.

After that, called it Moscovian. So they told you about this stuff in 1982? Yeah. Well, we kind of – What year was this? It was 88 and 89 when I was there. 82 is when I was at Los Alamos. I'm sorry.

Yeah. So 88, 89, they told you about this stuff. So this was not like – No, they didn't tell me about it. That's one of the things that this group came up with. The, God, I keep losing my train of thought with this thing. So, this one area, this element 115 was the fuel. Yeah, it was the fuel um the the world will forgive you for having a migraine i can i it's really hard to think

through this just give me a minute we'll just give you more i just want to say one yeah definitely i just want to say one thing you know but for the last 30 years people have just been on the attack on bob you know getting to know, the personal effects on his life. It's really hard to understand unless you meet his family and his wife. I mean, this is the last thing he wanted to fucking do was have to talk. Yeah, we should explain that, Jeremy, that you and I had this conversation. I watched your documentary. We had this conversation, and I said, I have to talk to him.

The document, there's been detractors. There's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said. But over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the 80s, have proven to be true. Things that people said were not true were proven to be true. Element 115 was one of them. Right? Right. Right. Element 115, the fuel they had, was stable. not true were proven to be true element 115 was one of them right right right uh element 115 the fuel they had was stable in other words it didn't decay it wasn't emitting radioactivity um when

they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115 uh it did decay and it was not a stable element so they're they're kind of two different things. But this is kind of typical. Elements always have, or pretty much always have, stable isotopes and unstable isotopes. Like I think cesium has like 30 unstable isotopes to it. Well, hydrogen, for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas. It's stable. It's not radioactive. But there's also two other types of hydrogen,

deuterium and tritium. And deuterium isn't radioactive. It's another stable isotope of hydrogen. But tritium is radioactive. Now, they're all hydrogen, but they just have different amounts of neutrons. So it's the same thing with other elements and element 115. Depending on the amount of neutrons it has, it designates the isotope, but it's 115. They will continue to take or experiment and try and make 115 at different isotopes, and I'm sure eventually they'll come up with a stable version, but it's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about. So they somehow or another had acquired a stable version. Did they say that the stable version had come with this craft?

It absolutely came with the craft, yeah. So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist? Well, everything was impossible. Right. I mean, down to the metal, I did get a chance to look inside the craft on only one occasion,

and this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates without any interconnection, so the placement of components might be critical. So they allowed me to go inside and look at it. Again, I forgot where the hell I am. So you're going into this craft, and what are you thinking when you're inside of it? What are you seeing? And what are you thinking when you're inside of it?

Like, what are you seeing? It's a very ominous feeling because it's, there are no, first of all, everything is one color. It's like a dark pewter color. And there are no right angles anywhere. It's as if somebody took, I've said this before, somebody took a model out of, and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted. Everything looks like it's fused together. Everything has a radius of curvature where two items meet. It's a really weird-looking thing. there was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that looked recognizable.

Everything was really unworldly, to pick a way to describe it. So you get inside this thing, and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being. Yeah, you can't really stand up until you get to the very center of it. And how tall are you? I'm 5'10". And what do you think this was designed for? I'd say something close to half my height. Wow. So these little three-foot tall-ish creatures.

Yeah, and the seats were small, too. I mean, obviously it was made for something, something small. But there's nothing else in there. There's just seats, the reactor, and some of the subcomponents. There's no control panels. There's no bathroom. There's no decorative components or artwork or anything that you would recognize or trim.

I mean, it's just a very bare-bones thing. You're not seeing any screens? Well, there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure, and one of the archways can become transparent. When I was in there, there was another group working on one of the archways, and you could call that a screen, more or less.

So through that archway it would be it would maintain the solidity the the solid whatever metal it was yeah but you could yeah it just became transparent yeah i saw that happen once or twice before i left did you ask any questions about what the fuck no there's no asking there's no asking questions no but when you watch something become transparent and you realize it's still there but you can now see through it yeah i mean now that's not that impressive we do have some liquid crystal materials that are like that you know they have seen that in smart glass yeah they call it smart glass so this is just uh and i don't know if the craft is made of an advanced metal or a ceramic.

It was cold to the touch, so I would lean more towards a metal. And again, you're not allowed to ask questions. No. They work on the buddy system, so I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry. Now, this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion. really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion. And ideally, you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward. But they're so over-the-top concerned about security,

they split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant. It just destroys any of the progress you can make or at least makes it go so slow. I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot. Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a jet-powered Honda to come in and see what he could do. I think that was an act of desperation. I think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and let's just give this guy a try here. I think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and let's just give this guy a try here because they weren't and they might have done this four more times since, you know, up to the point in time today, assuming they're still working on this thing.

And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it, to pilot? Was there a pilot seat? There were three seats. They sat around. The reactor was in the dead center of it, and then equidistant around there were three seats. And that's all. There was a large.

They're not consoles. They're large rectangular objects, also spaced, equidistant around the center. There's nothing on them. There's no buttons. There's no lights. There's no controls. And they look the same color, the same thing. Everything is the same color. It's just a different shape.

Right. And directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft. The main level is what we're talking about. Directly under that, those are the gravity amplifiers, the big rectangular objects. Underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack of a better word, a trash can hanging on a pipe, three of those. I think that has to do with a navigation or their version of a computer with some planar panels, sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, but they're not portholes. They're just black areas. And I think that just determines its position in space.

But I physically was in the center section, and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned. What is roughly the size of this thing? I don't remember from being there, but after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation. John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw and known sizes of things, and we came up with 52 feet in diameter. So it's fairly small. Yeah. So I think that's a fair, a reasonable guess. Now, you said there's nine of them, and you got a brief glimpse at the other ones.

How are they different? Oh, they looked completely different. One looked like I called a jello mold, and it looked like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it. One was a very flat disc, you know, like a straw hat or something like that. oh, I don't know, like a straw hat or something like that. That was sitting up on its edge, and the thin part of it had, it looked like a projectile had been fired through the edge of it. So I don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated or if that's where the thing came from. Maybe it was shot down.

But that was the only one where I saw there was you know actual physical damage to it and that one was roughly the same size they're all they were kind of too far away to tell and did there was several teams that were working on the propulsion system so there was different teams that were working on these different aircrafts i i don't know i could only assume right now when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft your your goal is to try to figure out how this thing functions your goal is to try to figure out how this reactor i mean but it would imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out. Oh, it wasn't one day. Right.

Yeah, I mean, this is – Barry was there. I think Barry was sleeping there. I'm sure they had – now, that isn't weird. I mean, up at the Tonopah Test Range where they work on stealth fighters, you go, I think, three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there too. So it's not weird to stay up at the test site. So, yeah, I think he pretty much acted like he's been up there for a long time. Yeah.

But— He's still there. Yeah. Who knows? Do you have contact with this guy? No. Oh, no. I wish I did.

I kind of thought he was going to come out after I did. Right. And I think I took so much flack and it's so much shit for what went on. I think I actually, I wound up helping security there and everybody became afraid of, you know, doing or saying anything after that. So what kind of reports did you have to give? Like, so you're not making much progress, right? You're just trying to figure out what this thing is and it seems impossible so well we didn't personally make them i mean we were always there was never a lot of information that we gained um the guy you would call him our supervisor his name

was dennis mariani and kind of a military looking guy and he would routinely pop in during the day and, you know, hey, what's going on, guys? And he would essentially relay any information, anything new we came up with. I mean, he was our go-between. We presented him the information, and then he took it to wherever they were, you know, assembling all the data from everybody. Now, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight-hour day? No.

No? No, it was really weird that I would be only called in on certain times and certain days, and they would be weird hours, too. Most of the time was later in the evening. I mean, I can get a call at 11 o'clock at night, and they'll say, you know, it's now 11 o'clock. And they'll say, you know, it's now 11 o'clock. By 1145, you need to be at McCarran Terminal. And, you know, we'll let you know when we have more information.

But what did you do while you were there? If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about. Sure. I mean, the thing was that what you do with anything, if you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is perform tests. And all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could. I mean, we tested, you know, it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate. I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics, I mean, essentially any machine, any device that operates always makes extra heat.

Nothing works at 100% efficient. Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat and it's just wasted. This didn't. I mean, we looked at, back then we had infrared cameras. They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen. But it never got, no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature, which is impossible. I mean, you're pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm. We tried measuring magnetic fields and there was nothing there. So

we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused. So we really spent all our time just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control. So you were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it? You were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it. No, not really. I mean, we really could only come up with a best guess. Now, I can't say that I could absolutely state for certainty how anything actually worked. Now, did you know at all how they were piloting it?

Because some they were doing some tests where they're having these things fly around in the sky. And this is what gets us deeper into your story. Right. I was out there for one test. Right. So I was out there for one test. In fact, I was with Barry in the lab, and Dennis came in and said, we're about to run a test. Why don't you guys come out? Or I think he said, Barry, why don't you come out here and bring Bob with you?

We went out there, and the craft was already outside the hangar and was just preparing to lift off. Now, they were in communication with somebody in the craft. So there was a person in the craft. Yeah, there was certainly a person in there. Now, it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small. So the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle, my best guess. And this is the same specific craft that you worked on

because you were the that was the only craft that you were the only one that i i touched and worked on um and it it quietly lifted off the ground which was incredibly impressive to see uh quietly or silently what's well quietly because it did it produce it produced um a little corona discharge from the bottom. Corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge. As it was lifting off the ground, you can hear a slight hiss sound. Now, as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped and the blue glow disappeared. So it lifted off quietly and then

it hovered silently if you want to be specific wow so then what kind of maneuvers was it doing it took uh for that particular time it took off moved a little round around to the left and right and then sat back down the um the craft itself um they communicated with it because I saw the guy talking in a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft. And I even saw the frequency that was on the frequency counter of the communication, the transceiver there. the frequency counter, the communication, the transceiver there. But what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft with a radio. The radio wave should bend around the craft. I mean, it shouldn't be possible. Every single thing about the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us.

I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after. Why should the frequency bend around the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us. I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after. Why should the frequency bend around the craft? Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft. The reactor's in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top. There's actually a small appendage that sticks out of the top of the craft, and it produces a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft. Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft. The light bends around it.

You're bending gravity. It bends light. It bends radio waves. It shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it that's distorting all forms of energy. But they were apparently in contact with it. Somehow or another, through some unexplained way that they didn't bother explaining to you. So this thing gets up. It just does some very simple maneuvers left right left right goes down

um and did they discuss this with you i mean they said they wanted you to see it no they just wanted no they didn't discuss anything with me it set it sat down we looked around for a bit and barry said let's go back we went back in the lab all we got to do was see it. Fast forward to some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft. Now, they had times they had designated high-performance tests. This obviously wasn't one that was a high-performance test. The high-performance test goes above the mountain range, and they do much more radical moves with the thing look this is a prized item and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that this they just play with this thing right over

the test site um but they were doing some radical moves with it and since i had the test flight schedule, statistically, the amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays. And that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on. would see what's going on. And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden territory around Area 51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right? Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out. Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back. But, yeah, I think all that occurred long after I was great that I came out. So you're working there. And while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule. Forgive me for explaining your story.

But you would get these phone calls. You would have to go to the airport at 11 p.m., and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair. Yeah, apparently so. Now, I did give my permission to have as part of the security clearance process, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff. They, you know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian

top secret clearance or military top secret clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries. But, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual. However, countries, but, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual. However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever, about what's going on. So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored. Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too. Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor. Now, they were monitoring this on the phone, and they knew it, and I didn't.

So they stopped me coming in, and their attitude at the time was um we need to see how this is going to play out and if lazar is going to get a little weird or anything so let's just you know hold him off from coming in and uh you know see what happens and they explain this to you what was happening well after the fact yeah because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around. And I started getting a little concerned going, well, are they booting me out of the project? And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what I know. So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned. And I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, hey, remember that job I told you about? This is what's

going on. And like, you don't need to take my word for it. Wednesday night, we need to all go out here. I want to show you what's going on. So I took everybody, and we went out to, remember, since I had the test flight schedule, and went outside the base, out into the desert, and so everybody could see one of the high-performance tests. And it left quite an imprint on everybody, so they knew I wasn't crazy. And there's videos of these tests, right? Yeah, but remember, this is in the dark in the 80s with a big monster sized camcorder and you got

a bright light jumping around. Yeah, I mean we did video of it, but there's no, by today's standards. But is your video specifically available? The video that you took? Yeah, well George Knapp has it. Is it online? I have no idea jeremy yeah i

show clips of it in my film it's it's online and someone did a deep analysis of it uh it was interesting uh to take a look at how this microphone up to your face give me about a fist from your face all right um you know to see how his video looks now but as far as video evidence i mean we are talking 80s campers the most important thing is the human story here. Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other. They don't all talk. They all agree on one thing. They saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Bob Lazar said.

And remember, this is 17, 15, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose lake and they all agree they saw something that night they had never seen before and they've never seen since right when he said it so that's one of like the six things where i'm like how did he know you can dismiss him i i tried to dismiss it but some things we can't get around and and there's about five or six of them how did he know about those? If Jamie wants to find that video right now, what would he look under? Bob Lazar, UFO, S4, Area 51,

just kind of like that. So it's like the S4 UFO video, Bob Lazar. And the guy does an analysis, but you're analyzing these 80s videos. Right. From the very beginning, Bob never said, I have proof of my story and I'm going to tell the world. He said at the very beginning, I cannot prove my story. That's not why I'm telling this. George Knapp convinced him to tell people and he lived through it. And I didn't believe it either

until I talked with George. Okay. So you filmed this test flight, one test flight, and then you get caught. Actually, it was, I think, the third time because we went out there the first time. Everybody saw it. Everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers, and everybody had a lot to say about it. The maneuvers that I've seen, I've seen the video. I don't think there's something we have now that does that. No. In terms of like a human piloted craft.

I mean, I don't know, obviously, what the government. No, it's impossible. Nothing can move like that. And remember, we didn't start filming from the very beginning. You know, we were waiting for something, you know, to happen. The craft took off and then came flying at us, stopped know turned at a right angle flew back and then you know after it did some you know amazing stuff to get the camera and then we started filming so it doesn't have all of it on there it just has some the way i describe it to my friends and they said what does it look like i said take a laser pointer

and then have a wall and then move it around the wall like you know how it moves around the wall it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any way by the atmosphere yeah that's what it looks like you're essentially separated from reality as crazy as that sounds with being in in case its own gravitational envelope inertia is not going to affect it and you know this is uh this is how some of those recent sightings with Commander David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO. I mean, he describes exactly, the thing operates exactly the way I was describing. That's why he was interested to talk to me. But we saw this, and, you know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it.

We should try it again the next test flight day. So this became a thing to do. And I think it was on the third time that we got caught. I mean, we started becoming a little careless. I think we took a motor home out there. I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly imagine. Started tailgating. Yeah, it was ridiculous. um again you're in your 20s yeah and you know what was funny was um we went out there and my friend gene huff and i were leaning on the front of a vehicle

and just for some reason we just started talking shit. Like, well, I hope they realize that I don't remember what we were saying, but something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that. It was crazy. And then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light fall on the ground and roll to us. And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black. You can't see your hand in front of your face.

There were a bunch of guards standing right out there. And they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall looking at us, listening to us. And the guy dropped it. And the scope rolled over to us. And you could see the green screen. We turned the lights on. and all these guys are there. So it was – Whoa.

Yeah, yeah. So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught, as we should have, because it was stupid. So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens? Well, I went in for debriefing. The following day, I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site. And this is when they brought out the transcript of the phone call with my wife. And, you know, they sat me down and we said, you know, when we meant to keep this secret, we meant you can't tell your friends, right? You know, and it just being sarcastic and trying to.

And then they got real serious. But this is where they, you know, took the transcript out and were reading me what my wife and, you know, our friend were talking about. And I don't know. It was a hard time. So what happens from there what do they do with you why don't they arrest you i don't i don't know i don't know why i'm not sure they exactly they knew what to do but they did let me go that night and i went home

and that this is kind of when the most stressful part started. Because you're realizing that you're being monitored 24-7. Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble. And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point. So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, tells it, puts it online,

and makes everybody aware of it, and that's how I found out about it. Yeah, to make a long story short. What happens from there on i mean do they contact you and say hey bob it's probably a good idea if you shut up how they try to label you as crazy was there there were boy there were a lot of things that happened at you know between that point. I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story. We'd have to go back to Los Alamos

and, well, I really don't want to talk about that. Top secret weapons stuff that you were working on. No, I'm talking about the 115. Well, I don't know. I have to think about how i'd what is the problem with this i don't i don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting something so um i just have to dance around a couple he was rated just during the filming of the movie people thought the movie's great by the way. Thanks, Joe. And it's on Netflix right now if anybody wants to check it out. And if you're one of those people like me who, you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs. I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of shit.

And not just full of shit. They're childishly delirious. Like the way they talk about things. I mean, there's so many people that I'm in contact, they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong. And like, you know, like, okay. This is one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show.

I'm sure. Well, no, it's no, yeah, well, it's, I mean, it's no joke. We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn I'm not full of shit, so I got to talk to him. And so most of the correspondence I get are people trying to get a hold of me going, Bob, you got to listen to me. I'm coming to talk to you. I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever. But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy, and they're frightening. There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world. There's a lot of people that have real issues.

Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that we have to look at what's going on now and understand. I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now. And to not really understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years. And at some point, we should just touch upon that. The biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case that came out, I've heard people even on the show say, oh, there's a glitch in the radar. That's a data poor perspective. You just don't know yet what's really going on. Commander Fravor, I was able to get the interview with him to talk with him way before it became public.

I got that from him. He saw it. Other pilots saw it. This is a big thing that's going on right now. They had more sightings on the East Coast recently, cubes with spherical oars. These are not aerodynamic, and these are the people we trust to defend us on 9-11. Commander Favor protected Los Angeles on 9-11.

So we trust them, but they're not trained observers. Radar, individuals see these things. And the big one, just to throw it down so we can consider a story a little differently, there's more depth to it. The big one is the United States government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon. That program was called AATIP, Advanced Aerospace, or sorry, was called OSAP. That's the mother program. George Knapp got that out. They announced through the New York Times about AATIP, but OSAP, these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program. Who cares?

That was the mother program. So they've admitted, we didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book. We don't think it's crazy. We actually want to reverse engineer the technology. That's why on your other show, you said, what's this AAV thing?

It's like, they're making up another UFO name. Well, hold on, there's a reason. Because in the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released that everybody said was fake till now they know is real, they call them AAVs, which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles. People are getting the acronyms wrong. So the reason for the terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're reading in the DIA documents. People can look for that now. So they changed the names to get people away from ufo or uap even like hillary clinton said on air right so what are you talking about hillary clinton hillary clinton informed the public on jimmy kimmel oh jimmy we don't call them ufos anymore we call them uaps unidentified aerial phenomenon right so she kind of was giving there the clintons are very into

the UFO topic. Senator Reed, you know, he's done a lot for the subject, the study of it, right? So she informed the public so they could look for the right term. So these terms are important because the DIA in those documents, they've been calling them AAVs for quite some time now. And they changed the name to anomalous. No, that's kind of a misnomer. So they always mess around with things, but it's actually advanced. Right, but when they're describing it in the news, they were calling it anomalous aerospace vehicles.

Totally, and that's cool. They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats, AAT, right? Because they want the sense of a threat. So my point is, if people don't know this now and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar. That's why we know it's aerospace. They dropped from 80,000 feet.

But guess what? That's the top scope of the SPY-1 radar is 80,000 feet. So the radar system they were using, it was coming from above that. So my point is this. If you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information. Because of the stigma that you're talking about, I saw you get totally upset with UFO topic. I met you first when you were totally upset with UFO topic. It's the people. When you're doing your… Pull this microphone out. I met you first when you were totally upset with the UFO topic. It's the people.

When? When you're doing your. Hold this microphone. I'm sorry, man. When you're doing your show, you know, the Joe Rogan questions everything. I could see how frustrating it is. Trust me. I have been frustrated to hell.

Luckily, my mentor is George Knapp, and he's taught me the pitfalls as I went through it. taught me the pitfalls as I went through it. My whole point in this rant right here is just that we have to now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts, not someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch. They're not. And so if you don't know that,

you just don't have the information yet. We're not just that, knowing the facts as we know them in 2019, not in 1988. Absolutely. And so what has he said that has come true? He's totally unimpressed with it, right? what has he said that has come true? He's totally unimpressed with it, right? What has he said that's come true?

So I was like, Bob, they've announced gravity as a wave. You were right, man. You're vindicated. And he looks at me and he's like, well, if you think about it, Jeremy, I had like a 50-50 chance. He was not very impressed, right? When did they announce gravity as a wave? So they detected, in a sense, they detected gravity waves. Who is they?

You might know more. There's two black holes that were colliding, and that's how they were able to detect. Yeah, somebody built, I don't know which group it was or what part of the government. That's what Google's for. Yeah. But they built a gigantic gravity wave detector and pretty much detected. That there are such things as gravity waves. First observation of gravitational waves.

It says it was in 2016. Okay, the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th of September 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11th of February 2016, previously gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems. Dun, dun, dun! The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched to predictions of general relativity for a gravitational wave emanating from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36

and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole. Well, I mean, in the 80s, the predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons, you know, theoretical particles. But they're not. They're waves. They're not particles. And that's what- So the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why

the moon, which is roughly one quarter the size of the Earth, has one sixth of the Earth's gravity. So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass. Right. And remember, we can observe the effects of gravity, but we have no idea what it is. All we can do is observe it, and we can't make it. The only way you can make gravity is just put more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity. But if you have a machine that makes gravity,

you can pretty much do anything. You can affect time. You can have force fields. All that stuff that's in science fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can make gravity. And what we worked on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity. I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era. I love that analogy because back then that was impossible. That was magic. because back then that was impossible. That was magic.

What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave. As much as we know and as impressed as we are, as we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet, we're still in many ways in the adolescence of technological innovation. Absolutely. Absolutely. If even adolescence. And when you're talking about this binary star system and zeta reticuli, and who knows how much

longer these things have been around than us? Who knows what their evolutionary cycle's been? Who knows what, I mean, we might be talking about something that's a million years more advanced than us. Yeah. Yeah, it could easily be. Now, I'm not in, believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs. I don't follow stories or, you know. Even after your experiences?

No, I'm fascinated with the technology. And it really, it irks me like every night I go to sleep that it was my own doing, essentially, that prevented me from continuing on in the project. I mean, to be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me. Right. But by the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from. I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by. So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing. But George Knapp is, I mean, he's the guy that has the context and tries to thread everything together.

And what he recently told me is he found, I don't know, it was either documentation or people that he spoke to, it's that the existence of this project, the project that I was on, it's something that they seem to take out every eight or 10 years. So that's a very specific memo. And this is actually, this is the first time I'll be very clear with people about it. It's a big topic of conversation right now. It's called the Wilson Memo. You can look it up. Admiral Wilson met with a scientist who's actually was featured in one of my films. Everybody has been debating whether or not this document of a conversation with a, with a sitting Admiral at the time is a real document. It's an actual conversation that happened. And this document is where everybody wants to know the world is going crazy right now in the ufo world i'll tell you straight up right

now i'm in the position to know and it is a real document that it is real so the conversation you read in that that conversation was had i can't attest to every i don't you're not being very clear sure please no problem so there was a document that is circulating right now that is really big. It's going around everywhere. People are asking and wondering. What is this document? It's called the Wilson Memo is how you can find it online. Or the Wilson Leak.

There it is. Jimmy's got it. The Wilson Memorandum. Use of human volunteers. No, no, no, no. I'm not sure that was it. No, that's not it. Okay, okay.

So Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist, and they have this discussion, oddly enough, at special projects at EG&G. And if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling everybody right now it's real, and we'll see. My history is pretty good with saying if something is real or not, right? So here we go. The document comes out. They meet at EG&G special projects. In 1989, they stumble into a problem.

This happens. They put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress. So this document kind of talks about this process. The big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob, and one of the things it's vindicating besides the EG&G thing, is that private industry. So this guy's an admiral, and he says, I found out about your SAP, your special access program. I need to know about it.

And he's going to a private part of industry, and he is denied access. And he says, I should be running this program. And they were able to deny denied access. And he says, you know, I should be running this program. And they were able to deny him access. So I think the takeaway here is check it out. I'm telling you that that is an actual correct, that is a leak. Now, everything said in that document, I don't know. What are you talking about? What is said in that document specifically?

It's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the search for the UFO subject, the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs. So in this document, they talk about it. I believe that this document, the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow, one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff. He's the guy who owns Skinwalker Ranch. No, he's not. He was the guy that owns Skinwalker. Okay.

Yeah, he used to own it. There's a new owner, and I interviewed him for my other film, but there's a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon. But there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner. Anyway, the whole point of this, you know, insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea Bob just said that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere. They tuck it away and then they bring it back out, you know, later and start working on it what is the limiting factor i think bob should speak on this but it's the material science yeah it's really where physics is so i i can i can see them doing that i mean i didn't have any uh information on that but i think what you know george uncovered is probably accurate that

uh you know we try and do what we can and once we reach a roadblock on we really can't figure it out it's just friggin wait put the thing away wait for science to catch up and you know a decade later let's take the project out again and see all right now where can we go but there's got to be someone who remains informed right oh yeah you've got your scientists like you and Barry. You've got your people that you compartmentalize. You've got these people working on this project. Yeah, there has to be some people that know everything.

You've got security, and then someone's going to be on the outside saying, hey, we need people to guard this building. Don't let anybody in for 10 years. I think a lot of that is private industry, and I think that's how they keep it. Yeah, I think that's how they literally, because the government is just so leaky. I think that's kind of what they're doing. That's what the document kind of proves. You just articulated that, that it is in control of private industry.

What private industry? Some aerospace company, something? I don't know. Yeah, the Admiral wouldn't name it in the conversation. So they still have these things supposedly i would guess i mean i don't have any information have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they got them no but um something must have been said to me from Barry. But it was just too long ago, and I can't quite remember what was said.

But it just left a seed in my mind. I think at least one of them was part of an archaeological dig. So it's old. At least one of them is old. I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archaeological dig. Whoa. So that means it's not just old, it's ancient. That'd be a great Steven Spielberg movie.

Yeah. Right? As all of it would. Yeah, that showed me out when he said that for the first time. Yeah. That's a freak out right there. Just a couple of dudes with some brushes looking for a tyrannosaurus rex bone they hit metal and when did they find it you know that they have nine of them well and how could we have not heard about that what about the guys with the brushes

how could you uncover something like that and joe's newspaper at home does i mean they said it on that first day oh you mean the roswell yeah yeah the one you told me yeah i have a cover what is this here, Jamie? This is the document, but I had to do some digging to find it. Yeah, it's just kind of, yeah, so this is where they meet at EG&G, and this is Admiral Wilson, and there's a lot more coming out. Now, I want to be clear, George didn't put this out. He didn't leak this out to anybody.

This is, I can tell you how I- Who recorded this conversation? So this was an employee of, at the time, Robert Bigelow. And this is in 2002. Right. Do you remember when he had that government contract called OSAP, the world all knows about now, and he had nids that studied the ranch that 22 million, everybody is saying it was for a tip, um, advanced aerospace threat identification program.

The $22 million was for OSAP that was pushed through through Congress, three congressmen, right, an astronaut. It was pushed through. And that's what that $22 million, by the way, they spend more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs, if it was just this program, which I think is funny. They probably make a lot more money from Viagra than they do from UFOs, too. Well, you never know how it seeds into a population. But anyway, this program, this is what was the mother program. So it got the 22 million. And really, it was to study Skinwalker Ranch.

Oddly enough, that 22 million all was inspired by the phenomenon they were seeing at Skinwalker Ranch. Because the scientists, they're seeing vehicles come through like a space in the sky. Yeah, we went there. I went there with Duncan. We interviewed a bunch of people that seemed full of shit, but a couple that didn't. It was very, very interesting. Totally.

But if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area. I'm not talking about those stories. I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government, right, through Bigelow to study the ranch because they thought it was important. And, you know, whatever, whatever. The point is that $22 million was to study that. Then we have AATIP, which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings, like Commander Fravers and that sort of thing.

This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that, through the Bigelow studies, it was government-funded, and then it was personally funded and then government-funded. It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials that they can't study it. So that's the claim right now. Give it some time, let people dig more into this. It's fascinating, man. So you are essentially you're kicked out, right?

You're out of this program. You can't work with these crafts anymore. And do they give you any threats? Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out? Yeah. Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out? Yeah. I mean, the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this stuff.

And, you know, he said, well, let's just get it on tape. Should something happen, at least we have a record of it. And I don't remember what the impetus was, but at some point George wanted to air it. And he said, you know, you make the call on it. And look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it. And it came down to the day where George wants to put it on the 5 o'clock news. He said, this is important stuff. People have to know about it.

And I thought it was too. I thought it's kind of a crime. I know you got to keep the technology secret. But you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have actual hardware from another civilization. It's a big fucking deal, probably the biggest one there ever was. And George said, today's the day we got to put it on the news or something to that effect. And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said, we're not doing it. And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape. But he won because he was a bigger guy.

So you actually physically wrestled? Well, I think it was more of a pulling match. I don't think we ever hit the ground but uh he got the tape he put it in the player and boom five o'clock news was on and then um i got a call after that and they said it was from dennis he said you have any idea what we're going to do to you now and? After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS. People had, anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had their clearances pulled. One of them, a friend, one of mine that jeremy knows he's

going on camera with me soon he'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there he was working up at the tonal pot test range waiting for his clearance to come through and you know they they pulled that it would it became it's like if they can't get the person that's involved they just create a problem for everybody that surrounds them. And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected to. And that's an effective way of shutting someone up. Did you feel that by coming forward and going public, they couldn't just snuff you out? That was, I mean, that's what I was told.

And George and everybody, you know, said that. You got to, oh, it's public. There public there's you know no one will touch you and i i you know i i fell for it um and i i just wish you didn't yeah sometimes sometimes when it's just overstressed and people are camping on your lawn yeah but it's this is gonna make things worse doing this no this is gonna make things better that's what i was trying to tell him how is this to make things worse doing this. No, this is going to make things better. That's what I was trying to tell him. How is this going to make things better? Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who not only work in the government,

people that are police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to empathize. Firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to empathize. Emphasize and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with one of the most, if not the most, important discovery in the history of human beings. The big question, are we alone? It's the number one question. There's two questions, right? What happens when we die and are we alone?

Those are the two big questions. Right. And if we're not alone and someone knows we're not alone and these some people who know we're not alone are these bungling sort of military folks. Even if they weren't, it's a crime that they're not telling the rest of us. But I mean, I don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent. I mean, they can't be competent. It seems to me, to what you're describing, that no one can be competent with this technology. Like the Victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor.

There's no way. It's beyond us. Why do you think they're not telling us? Let's just make an assumption that this is true right now. Why do you think that they're not telling us, that our government doesn't tell us? What's your best thought? Well, let me put it into what you do.

If I'm the president, okay, and I get this information what do i do with this what do i do with this there's something that we don't know there's something we don't understand there's something that came from another world we got it tucked away in the mountains and uh just wanted you guys to know about it hey sleep tight hey american auto's on tonight who do you think's gonna win yeah who's gonna win america that's not gonna happen so one is uncertainty And the other one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot

Absolutely not knowing what to tell people Because you don't really understand it yourself Right, what do you say? You want to run a government? You want to get people to pay their taxes? But there's something else So you have these objects flying with impunity, right? But you have something else

Well not only that, what can you say? Like how much do you really know? I think it's mainly the technology with impunity right and you but you have something else well not only that what can you say like how much do you really know i think it's mainly the technology they just want to keep the technology secret because if there's yeah whoever gets this wins dude yeah they you you control the where you become you literally become invincible once you master the technology you can't you cannot penetrate a field like that so i imagine that's I know it's all science fiction, but science fiction turns into science fact. If you have real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you win. You win.

You can force your will upon anybody. And like I said, there's so much more to the story. When I was first there, there were Russianussian scientists at s4 that was this was early on in the project so this was before operation paperclip became public as well right i would imagine that was i don't know what the dates were when was that when did that was that 98 i think 98 yeah yeah i don't know the dates on it so it's roughly 10 years later operation paperclip becomes freedom of information act we We're talking about Russia, not Germany. He's talking about Russian scientists.

Yeah. But I mean, Russian scientists, a lot of them came from Germany. A lot of those rocket scientists that work with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists. Got it. So Russians got some of them. I just know at some point there was intense cooperation. With Russia. Even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and EMP tests and stuff like that. Things we would never have discussed with Russia. I mean, even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons

and EMP tests and stuff like that, things we would never have discussed with them. But at the same time, it was in the late 80s, they were involved and actually in the area at S4 with us. So you got to communicate with these guys or you saw them? No, I knew they were there. Barry would talk about the commies that were there. The commies?

Yeah, the commies. That was back when they were the commies, right? the commies yeah the commies and um that was back when they were the commies yeah yeah they were real commies um and um at some point it wasn't our group but at some point there was a big discovery made and this did not happen when i was there it happened in between my trips to there that, apparently, they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody, and the Russians were never allowed back on the base after that. But you don't know what that discovery was? No. No, like I said, it wasn't my group. So one of the other groups really found out something.

But, you know, in typical American fashion, it was, all right, this is ours. You guys get the hell out of here. Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar? No, nothing that I had heard. See, that was the thing that always freaked me out, was why, if something was so superior to human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony. Like, why would you go to the queen? I don't give a fuck who the queen is.

I'm a human. I'm so superior to you ants. I don't care who you have running queen is. I'm a human. I'm so superior to you ants. I don't care who you have running your hive. I'm just going to study it. I think it's who got it. Who got it? Look at the, you know, rocket technology in Germany. But they got nine of them?

Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either. So they were either in the same area or, you know, one had clues to where others were. I mean, I don't know you you have to fill that in there but you're right i mean nine of them that's a that that's a a big dig if it was archaeological well one of the more recent the recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from air force pilots and navy pilots they've been talking about things happening in the ocean and that that something go literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface of the water 2004 tic-tac nimitz case so that's when george knapp and i broke on the radio twice

before the new york times so i know this one really well commander fravor and those pilots there was a disturbance on the surface of the water. Commander Fravor visually saw what looked like similar to a cross, some object. So it's like as if you have some coral under the water and you've got, it's breaking over. The Tic Tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies, it's a gravity propelled system. They saw it in the sky before they saw it in the water, right? Yeah. So there was, there were radar that was picking this, these things coming down from 80,000 000 feet dropping to 50 feet in less than a second this is it jamie what is this this is actually on the news today there was a briefing so a lot of people get this confused not this one

then either no so that is called the gimbal so there's three videos released by the pentagon that are all actually play and keep the volume off okay i. I would really just pay attention to the source videos. So you've got the Tic Tac, which is this object that Commander Fravor saw. Another pilot filmed it with a FLIR pod, and it goes, but this one you see is really important to Bob's story. The gimbal craft.

It's been recently analyzed. It's FLIR. Not only does it, it's definitive that it's not a conventional anything by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source. So this object, by the way, sat stationary for days, if not weeks, it sat stationary. Yeah, they found it 11 hours later. And they were saying, there's no way this thing using that kind of energy to go that

fast could just hover for an hour. The amount of time. And by the way, you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day. This object was not alone. And so hopefully that information comes out and we can, I mean, I wish we had video of it. I'm sure we'd all want to see it. But that's called the gimbal. That was East Coast, right?

2015. West Coast 2004 was the Tic Tac. The disturbance on the water, Commander Fravor believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac was coming around and doing it. With inside the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac system

was causing the disturbance, but the USO, un unidentified submerged object that he visually saw uh the whole interesting thing about that is i would love bob to describe it is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space air or water why doesn't it matter i love when he talks about this shit well first of all commander fravor was the F-18 pilot off the Nimitz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is. And it wasn't just – I got a chance to talk to him recently. And it wasn't just a radar image. I mean, Commander Fravor had eyes on it for over five minutes watching this thing, as four other pilots did.

So this wasn't a radar blip or anything. I mean, these guys were watching this thing. But, you know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s movie it flies belly first i mean it may set down conventionally but it always rotates it does a roll maneuver puts its belly towards the target and then moves away at high speed like a car flying with the wheels forward right right i mean it may lift land on the wheels but at some point

when it wants to leave it's gonna flips up points the wheels where it wants to go and takes off. And the gimbal video, you can see the craft do the roll maneuver. And it's really interesting. It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on. like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles right but they all have the same power source they all have the same power source and we're also dealing with if you think about the laws of technological progression you know you think of moore's law and you think of how things accelerate you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are if not even years i mean i mean we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms right the way the way we look at the world i mean they mean they might be just superior in terms of their intellect they They've got to be. Maybe.

We don't know, right? Well, the only reason I say that is because, look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we came in. If the stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material, maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with. And the version of their steam engine, their first product was something that operated

like this. And actually, when they came to Earth to look around or you know whatever they were amazed at the stuff we were doing these guys burn stuff and squirted out the back to go forward so right right you know who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that my thought was if you went back to the 1400s and then you went from 1400 to 1500 you're not gonna see that much of a difference technologically. If you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume there's going to be a radical change. Right. Well, yeah, the delta, the rate of change is magnificently higher than it used to be.

Right. So if you think about what they had in 1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019, just logically seems like they would advance. I would think so. The only question is like, are they living? Is that a living thing in terms of like a biological thing? Or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like we are working on right now? I mean, we're in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient beings, artificial intelligence. There's silicon-based life forms

that they're essentially trying to create. Boston Dynamics, was it Boston Dynamics at the company? You can make robots. You can make machines out of flesh, right? So a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, Was it Boss Dynamics at the company? You can make robots. Yeah. You can make machines out of flesh, right? So a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, you know, that's what a lot of people think those like gray things are, you know, that people call the grays. Yeah. It's like they were like, they're machines printed from flesh. So what you're saying is like not so far off.

Well, they could just be synthetic life. They don't even need to be, you know, machines. Well, they seem to have no sex organs, the way they're described by people that have had interactions with them, assuming these people aren't liars or crazy or whatever. Right. They have no sex organs and that they don't seem to have any muscle. They're just almost like a frame. Right. And they have enormous heads. I mean, if you look at Australopithecus or depictions of ancient hominids, and then you go to human beings, one of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies.

Well, you see a clear progression of evolution, too, where something like that, I would lean towards synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task. There's no reproductive organs. So, I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of, you know, physical evolution. Right. Well, that's also our bottleneck, right? Our bottleneck is our biological imperative. The need to breed emotions, fear, anxiety, all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's essentially what it is, human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient artificial life,

some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have. By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing. I always thought of flying saucers what I heard Bob Lazar talk about, flying saucer, right? But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes. Like none of them are alike. You know, there are the saucers, but you got cigar shaped. You got, you know, the top hat shaped. You have orbs.

Why? Maybe they're serving different purposes. They're doing different things like we'd use different tools. And I want to be clear. The reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, six man-man-to-walk-on-the-moon, last guy to film him before he died, right? That's how I know I don't want any journalist thinking I got it from anywhere else. I know because of Dr. Mitchell.

And he said the same thing. Maybe these things are performing different tasks, you know? you know and that's what they seem if you if you think about what an alien is in terms of our our the sort of iconic image of an alien like the steven spielberg closing cows are the third time the third uh kind alien they seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become right and if these things are tiny human beings are smaller than they've ever been before they're weaker than they've ever been before and there seems to be a trend in that direction. And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression, our lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence.

And we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have. If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world. You know, that one day we- Okay, I'll buy this. Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant. And that quote has always been one of my favorites.

Because, okay, what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating? by this yeah mcclune was brilliant and that that quote has always been one of my favorites because okay what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating we're constantly looking for faster cars better computers bigger screens faster more resolution more pixels more this more that higher bandwidth 5g 10g right what are we doing we're moving into this in this if you just follow it objectively stay stand back don't attach yourself or your civilization your culture to it and look at what it is we're moving a hundred percent towards technological innovation if you looked at this species from afar and if you weren't a part of it you would say what does this species do oh they make things they make things better every year

beehives are the same fucking thing that you see 10 years ago. You go by, you see a beehive, it's amazing, it's cool, but they're the same fucking thing. They figured out how to do it, they make a beehive. We don't do that. We make better things.

What would you do? Constantly. And at some point, I think that technology is going to fuse with us. Yes. And we're going to become. It's already happening.

Yeah. Elon Musk talked about it on my podcast that we are cyborgs. You just carry it in your pocket. It's a phone. It answers any question you want. You can talk to it'll give you the answers in the answers instantaneously it navigates you it has all your phone numbers in it has all your contacts you can get a hold

of people people listening to you through it it's connecting us in ways even involuntarily haptics that kind of thing yeah it's also getting on your wrist how many people have i watches apple watches they're right right and that's only because we can't integrate them yet but if you know that point is 100 yeah i didn't joke about it last night but i have a bit about it that i do about the integration between humans and technology that's what would you do if you were a hyper intelligence right would you do the work yourself or would you create some cool things called like humans to do it for you would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you? If you were a hyper intelligence that has kind of changed like you've described, you'd probably create workers, right?

Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory. I'm not talking about conspiracy. But it is a kind of a conspiracy. I'm asking you. Well, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily that. I mean, you could look at it that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it. The way I would look at it is like there's obviously a progression going on, a biological progression. There's some sort of an integration with technology.

There's some sort of imperative, this need for technological innovation. It's inescapable. Everyone has it. And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way because so many people work so hard to get new things and like god that seems so illogical and preposterous and it makes people unhappy and depression's on the rise but nobody seems to be able to stop it like why is that well maybe it's because we are the electronic caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly maybe that's what we're doing that could very well be what our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon and we don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it do you think a caterpillar is well hey caterpillar what are you doing man just i'm doing my thing it's my job i

have to make a cocoon then i'm becoming a butterfly this could be a natural part of evolution it could be that we're just supposed to do this exactly and make the jump to some sort of mechanized, non-biological. Have you ever seen an orangutan that is fishing with a spear? No. They've figured out how to fish with spears. There's primatologists. Wait, without somebody showing them how to fish? No, they've imitated human beings doing it.

And now they do it, but they do it independently. They're not trained orangutans. They're wild orangutans. Look at that. There's a wild orangutan. Oh, yeah, that's impressive. That's impressive. Very impressive.

Well, there's these primatologists. I guess you would call them primatologists. That's the term? That's a great term. Biologists. Biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age, that they've currently entered the stone age like they're not staying what they were a hundred thousand years ago or

five hundred thousand years ago but they're actively using tools and they're experimenting with different different ways to use those tools and then they're making tools out of stone they're making tools out of sticks and they're they're using them well this might just be what happens this might just be what happens i mean why else why are we why the fuck we work so hard i mean i i was i was driving to la this morning um i had a doctor's appointment so i was on the 405 at uh eight in the morning but jesus christ like this is so crazy when you're in the 405 in la at eight o'clock in the morning You see literally a million cars Yeah red light And it's just

Everywhere you go It's people But And also I'm in a Tesla So I have it on autopilot So I'm there sitting I'm listening to a podcast

I barely have my hand on the wheel I'm not touching shit This car's driving me along I'm not even doing anything I'm just I'm just hanging out It's so much less stress By the way

To do it that way. So it encourages you to innovate. It encourages you to embrace this new technology. I've got this giant screen. It's showing me the navigation in front of me. Oh, I'll be there five minutes early. Excellent. And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly.

It's Bluetooth streaming from my phone, and I pulled that podcast, which came out today out of the fucking sky, and I'm listening to it, and I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving on my way to the doctor's office. This is irresistible stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different than your Walkman, you know, back in the day. It is irresistible. It is irresistible. It's frighteningly irresistible.

But is it frightening? I mean, if you were a monkey, right, if you were an Australopithecus, would you go, man, I don't want to fucking be a person. I live in a house. That's bullshit. I like just swinging around on trees. I like running from jaguars. This is life.

Guys, life is running from crocodiles. It's not living in a fucking suburban community. No, there's probably some that are like that. Yeah, I don't think so. I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it. We're going to embrace it the same way you embrace cell phones, the same way you embrace television. There's going to be a few holdouts.

I don't even have an email address, man. There's a few and far between. Good luck with that, fuckface. Go move to the woods, Ted Kaczynski. Yeah, I was just going to throw Ted Kaczynski in there. Ted Kaczynski was right. This is something that I think about sometimes when I get really high, that Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies.

This has been proven. Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking brain when he was at Harvard. And then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to make enough money so that he could implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology. He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way. This is something my friend just called me about. So there's like this private library,

and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university. And he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it. I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe. I want to be very careful with that word, conspiracy theorist. What I was saying to you was, we terraform our earth, right?

We terraform. We change the environment. We do all this innovation. What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done? I'm not saying it is. I'm saying what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level? You mean like aliens coming down doing that to humans? Well, I'm telling you that there is something here. There's a fact. There's something. a much bigger level on a cosmic level you mean like aliens coming down doing that to humans well

i'm telling you that there is something here that's there's a fact you know there's something they're a craft they're here they're not ours they're here so the question is what is that about and i'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology well it's i think it's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there's steps that happen. I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization and that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach this. A type one civilization. We're going to stay a type zero. Well, we're in this warring, polluting,aging we're awesome civilization humans are it's well we're awesome

in a lot of ways you know but in that way we're not well yeah we're we're children that have immense power that we didn't really the other thing is you're using the immense power that other people have created right i mean even when you're driving a car you're stomping on the gas like whoa you didn't invent the fucking engine you didn't invent tires there's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding but yet you have the ability to use it like a person with a gun i'm just gonna bang bang bang people you don't you didn't invent a gun. So without the intellect to craft and engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have

paper or you have Bitcoin or you have whatever the fuck you're using, using a credit card. Now you have almost no responsibility. You could just flippantly use these things which is why we you know we were very childlike in our actions because we haven't had to earn the responsibility we haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things and then they've all put them together and then what is the what's the reason to put them together to profit well what's the reason to profit well why are you doing this so you can buy more things well what are we doing what are we doing we're making better things that's what we do that's all that's all we do is

make better things yeah why the fuck do we need oil why do we need oil why can't we just burn wood and stay home why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard why can't we do well we fucking can we certainly can people do do it but we decide to make that almost impossible our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed this is what la is la is 20 million people with hard surfaces as many hard surfaces as you can boy if you got an acre backyard in la holy shit look at all that grain this is amazing well no that's the fucking earth coming through this weird sort of creation that we've put on top of the earth but the goal

is that like new york city that's there's none of it right you just got you've got central park and they just got human shit you stacked up no one's growing anything and then constant work everyone's up early go go go innovate progress make that money so you can buy more things and every year hey apple where's this fucking new phone as if your phone isn't good enough like your phone's taking pictures and videos and people are calling you and you got applications that tell you Which way the wind's blowing It's not good enough

A blink of an eye Blink of an eye It's all gone though That you know like 10,000 years And the Hoover Dam goes or whatever You know Mount Rushmore disintegrates So it's amazing Because we have created that

And everything's trying to spring up through that We keep it maintenance down But we're a blink man Something hits But we don't think that way. You think in terms of your own life, right? You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now. We are, in many ways, this combination of this weird, primitive, ape-like thing

with the ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique on top of that with existential angst and and and fear so what do you do with that we fucking water it down with antidepressants give these fucking people some shit that keeps them moving they're worried about the future they're trying to figure out what reality is it's you're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spinning a thousand miles an hour hurling through infinity there's no meaning to this thing just keep making shit. Keep making stuff.

And then one day, they're going to be able to hit that switch and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology. And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are that you're observing. I'm not observing them, but yeah. Someone's observing them. Are you things are that you're you're observing i'm not observing them

but yeah someone's are you implying that they're us i don't think they are us but i think they are what happens when things keep going it's not us just like we're not monkeys right i'm not a chimp oh that'd be cool they're from here is your idea. No, that this is what happens all over the universe. Yeah, totally. That this is what happens. Look, here's the thing. I went to see Brian Cox's, he has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with this high resolution depictions of the cosmos.

And one of the most mind-blowing things was he has this large scale image of the universe and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions and it's fucking incredible but what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it even at You know I mean you're obviously Looking at An incredibly Small depiction Of something That's immensely large Like a galaxy

Of hundreds of billions Of stars You're seeing it As this little dot But this little dot That's flying through Space Surrounded by

Other little darts With very Similarly Spaced distances Between them Yeah homogenous All through yeah So Mike if we see

Uniformity in that form, in terms of the distance between galaxies, so many galaxies, it's so similar. They might vary slightly, and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right? But there's so much uniformity. Why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere and that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar,

you do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems, but there's also some speculation that Earth, that our solar system at one time was a binary star system. That's one of the speculations about that object that they find outside the Kuiper Belt, that the thing is 10 times larger than Earth. They think it might have been at one point in time a star. But this uniformity that you see, the Kuiper belt, that the thing is 10 times larger than Earth. They think it might have been at one point in time a star. But this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that has its same implications biologically, that there's some sort of a biological uniformity and that this happens

given the right sets of circumstances? Yeah, it could be. You should tell him some of the stuff that you've read that you don't know is true. I mean, if the stuff was true about the propulsion stuff, mean anyway he well what have you read what what you saw too i mean you know what are you talking about spill the beans bob i gotta poke the bear here get some more liquor in you the um well i mean the again, the only thing I could verify was what I had my hands on. There were, you know, there was talk of weapon systems. There were different projects.

Project Galileo, Project Sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft. Project Looking Glass had to do with time, any effects of time in the craft now i don't think we're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction but we're talking about you know small distortions intentional distortions of time and how that can be used you know as a not as a well it was part of a weapon program how are you informed in this these again were just the small briefings that I read. But, again, I don't really like to talk about those because I don't have any information on them, and it was just, you know, small briefings. But you told Commander Fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation and not gravity propulsion.

Well, it could be because gravity affects time, you know, space time. I'm sure you've heard of that. Because gravity affects time, you know, space time. I'm sure you've heard of that. And, you know, what Commander Fravor saw as he was in the F-18 approaching it, he described it as a ping pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth. It was moving that fast. Now, obviously, if there's anything inside there, it's going to be battered to hell.

But, you know, my point was was was that well one of two things either there's a gravitational envelope in there which negates any inertia effects or you are seeing through a gravity distortion field so you know just like you're looking at a a hot highway and you see you see an optical distortion going through there. Well, the same thing happens in gravity, and the craft may not actually be moving like that. It may just look like it because you can only see it through the field. So it may be making much more gentle moves. I'm not saying that's it, but it has to be one of the two. And the thing shows up 60 miles away.

They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after it left Commander Fravor, but it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away. And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends up there. So it's going a mile a second. No. I think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds yeah it could have been there instantly but yeah we don't know the cycle nobody knows that that's the whole thing oh so it cycles like radar cycles yeah it doesn't it doesn't sweep but i mean it scans yeah it's a planar array, so it just scans around at random places.

That's a spy one does the really cool. It doesn't do the whole loop anymore. Right. The point is, though, that the craft moved to his next location before he knew where his next location was going to be. Jesus. And that's, I mean, that's well documented. So that's a pretty shocking piece of information. What's fascinating to me, too, is that you were discussing the way this reactor worked

and that these things were not really connected. No, nothing is connected. There's no wiring at all. That freaks me the fuck out. Charge your iPhone. Well, wireless. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a simple electromagnetic.

Yeah, I know, again, but that's just simple electromagnetic induction. Right, but I mean, Tesla, the scientist, had this concept of. Right, that's what I'm talking about. I mean, for other people that don't know what we're saying he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky and westing house was like get the fuck out of here with that like when anybody could just pull electricity out of the sky meter yeah they couldn't they couldn't we had this talk in the car right over trying to chill him out you know we're talking about tesla and how he you know he couldn't be metered and how it all went down so it's funny bring it up yeah yeah that that i mean who knows what would

have happened in terms of innovation had he been allowed to go forward with that well we probably wouldn't have computers you think yeah i'm pretty positive i mean forget about microelectronics well this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air and yeah we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights but there'd be no radio communication the interference would be something we could would be overwhelming it would induce electric currents and anything with a small wire on it so integrated circuits transistors would be disintegrated before they were even you know tested for operation so it it would it would destroy us up yeah it would have stopped us dead

we'd have it'd be great you can turn lighters on and heaters from all over the place with no wires but it would stop modern electronics and if we became dependent on it it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels although it's destructive it's very difficult for us to get off the nipple it would have changed the course of how we developed which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization of the star system didn't even start with fossil fuels they had 115 naturally on their planet and they're like cool anti-gravity is pretty awesome well the fact that i think it's important that that actually happened yeah it might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason whoa and it's just it's i think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological

progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced yeah that's difficult if we imagine what this alien race must have been like and i mean god just just to be able to see something like i mean obviously we've seen it in different life forms, right? Like we see the life of certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain fish. Very, very different existence, very different life cycles. Octopus. Yeah, octopus. I mean, we see all these different variables in terms of biological entities on Earth,

but we don't see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate when we have intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean the only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales and they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment and subsequently because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment we put them in fish tanks and we're like get in the tank do some tricks right you know the only thing he saw in the craft if we were considering bob's story the only thing that you he saw in the craft that he related to that looked like a human could make was this honeycomb hatch and i always loved that

because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize you know the re yeah i i only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked. What was it? And it was the access to the level below. And it was, well, you know, if you take, you have a six-pack of beer, and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top. But if you push it from the sides it collapses flat so it was something

like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal and you could walk on that in the upper layer but if you took the corner stuck your finger finger in and pushed it collapsed and made a an entryway so i thought that was a really unique i'd never seen that before and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me. I said, ah, we can make that, and all that is is a hatchway. Was there any discussion about the materials

that were used to make the craft? I'm sure there was, but that was the metallurgy division. It had nothing to do with us. So you never got a... Not even the slightest briefing. I don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic. I think there's a fine line between the two.

Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past. Yeah. Some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos. In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos was someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it, and you were on that list. So it proved that you worked there even though people were trying to deny it,

and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos. You weren't really a scientist. What was that like to experience? I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when you could get away with something like that. Yeah, obviously there were a lot less records on computers at that time. It was still file cabinets and folders.

But, yeah, that was frightening that was one of the first things i started i think it's i think george knapp was the first one that uncovered that i mean he saw my birth certificate disappear he um it disappeared yeah there was no record of you being yeah there was there was no record of that there was uh his mom tells me his mom tells me about that like it was frightening for her for he's got a real family you know he's a real person it's frightening for her but if the los alamos thing really surprised me and that they were so adamant that no this guy never worked here don't be ridiculous and george went back and forth you know for i got the letters on the wall yeah

months i mean it was ridiculous but fortunately somebody came up with a 1982 phone book directory. I mean, and also, originally, I told you, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the paper. So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives. And, you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos. So there was at least something there. But somehow George came up with the phone directory. And then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in. I'll show you where I worked. We'll go in.

We'll meet people. And George went with me and, you know, filmed inside there. And you knew how to navigate the place. Oh, yeah. And, you know, met and, you know, filmed inside there. And you knew how to navigate the place. Oh, yeah. And, you know, met people, you know, and so there was no problem. Los Alamos was also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the size of your digits. No, no.

That was S4. That was S4. And explain that. So now this was back in the 80s. And this was back in the 80s where when you discuss this, people are like, this doesn't even exist. Yeah. Okay.

What was it? It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint scanners and, you know, anything of any high-resolution scanner at that time. So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it, so you could jam your hand in there. And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath. And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on, and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shone through your bones. And apparently, the length of the bones in your fingers

are extremely unique and easy to measure and they use that when you put your hands on there the light would turn on and your badge would pop out there's it right oh there it is that's that's it and i tried to describe this um to people and they said that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard and um i said hey that my badge came out of that thing. I put my hand on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could open the doors and get into S4. And everybody discredited that. They said it was bullshit. It was science fiction.

And, Jeremy, you found this. I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler Rogoway, and he had some good sources inside of Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time. So now I've got all these people that worked within who said, only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology. It was kind of shit, actually. They didn't keep it for very long,

beginning of biometrics. So I was able to reveal it in my film. I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to Bob. In the movie, it's the first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary. That's his genuine reaction. I'm getting goosebumps. That was a great idea, the way you did it. Thank you, man,, you know, in the movie. His first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary. That's his genuine reaction. I'm getting goosebumps. That was a great idea, the way you did it.

Thank you, man, because you know what? Guess what? I'm actually trying to see if he's telling the truth. That's how I started. You know, that's how I started. So it was really cool to see that, that you get to see it, his actual reaction. Has that been verified by other people? Yeah.

So, yeah. So to me, it has. Personally, I get emails every day and people are telling me where these are used and how they're used in the semi photos i got a lot of photos of identity mats now how they were used right they're not how they were used but yeah but i don't the most recent one was way more recent than i thought in another country but yeah that technology was used so what's so funny is um this technology, even in the area of 52, where they'd use them for Tonopah, one of the guys who will go on camera with me, he will do an interview

with me. He was a technician for one of these and he hated them because they were really bad. They always broke down and never, and he was a technician for him. Now he won't tell me where, if he worked at area 52, so it was probably Tonopah. It's very separated, even on base, but yeah. So there was that. Yeah. There is your education record. That was also, like, what happened with that?

Well, that disappeared also. You know, that I've never gone anywhere for education. I've never gone, I never attended any classes at Caltech. I never attended anything at MIT. You did attend classes in those places. I did attend classes in those places. Do you know anybody that you went to school with? Yes, I do.

And have they verified that they went to school with you? Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but people, yeah. The reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets in trouble. They don't want to be. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, of course. But what is that experience like, seeing your birth certificate erased, seeing your employment history?

Well, it's frightening. It's absolutely frightening. But it's also the fuel that the debunkers use, the so-called. Well, it's frightening. It's absolutely frightening. But it's also the fuel that the debunkers use, the so-called, air quote, skeptics. I don't like the term skeptics. I'm going to say this publicly because I really have only said this privately. I think it's a sloppy, lazy way to look at things, to just be a skeptic. I want people to be objective. And I think there's a lot of things you should be skeptical of.

I think you should look at things and look at things from a hardline science perspective. You should be objective. But the idea of skeptics, the problem with that is you're always looking for things to be bullshit. Yeah. And I think that's dangerous because I think some things aren't bullshit. It's confirmation bias on the other end. It is. You're just deciding to take a square thing and put it in a round hole no matter what.

And I find a lot of them to be lazy. A lot of them to be lazy thinkers. Sure. Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going, hmm. Instead of just separating their ego, they're playing a game. And the game is calling bullshit. I want to call bullshit. And I'm going to line up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition.

Yeah, that does happen. Every time I'm thinking I'm going to catch him in something, you know, all along this process, I found Dr. Krangel. He came forward and said, I was in security briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Alamos. He went on the record with me. Now, the other people I talked with, why won't they go on the record with me? Because they're still working there. So that's the difference, right?

What can the public have, right? Or even if they're not working there, they want to live their lives. I mean, obviously, people have seen what's happened to you. Mike Thigpen, after 30 years. Yeah, really. I found him. If you look at all the information concerning my know concerning my accounts that's that's verifiable it can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore it's really way past that point yeah i mean that was my big

pen is i mean how could i possibly know uh so mike thig pin was the guy that did the security clearances to go to the bait one of the guys that was this is the guy that did the security clearances to go to the base. One of the guys that was used. And this is the guy that you work with. He said he did. Right. And George Knapp, you know, George didn't believe him. George put him through four polygraph tests, right? He tried to see, man, this is a big risk.

It sounds interesting, but let's see if he's telling the truth. One of the things was Bob said there was a guy named Mike Thigpen. He did security clearances for the base. And that's a weird name. It's very specific. For 30 years, George found this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know. It was Mike Thigpen. The guy wouldn't talk to me.

Ghosted him. Totally ghosted him for 30 years. Used Facebook and Google Image Match through his children. I was able to find him after 30 years. And I talked to him three times on the phone. He lives on the East Coast. he almost went on camera with me confirmed that he did security clearances for the base in 1989 confirmed he remembers bob lazar and what you don't know is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours has from mike what i know i'm gonna give

a tea later i don't but that is real is actual. So handwritten note that says what? You know, this is new to me. So when the, I, when you're, when they do security clients, clearances, they go through all your friends and family. And they go to your friends.

Yeah. So this is to Bob. And I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving and they're doing a security clearance for him. And even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI come and visit my house and make sure that they security clearance for him. And even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend

and they lift a little card. And when my wife told him to get away, because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card. It's super cute now. Back then it was a handwritten note and his friend has it for him that you haven't seen in two decades.

So if you're listening, I don't know why I'm telling come you're telling me this now? I don't know why I'm telling you this. What is this card? It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Thigpen's signature. Oh, a card like a postcard. Like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying when Bob gets back or whatever it says on it. So it's just another little funny thing.

I found the guy. He does the security clearances. He admitted to me he did it. And he admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp because when George said his name on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever. And he's looking at his wife. He was in trouble. His name's never supposed to be out there. It's just a security clearance guy. But you don't want national attention associated with anything Bob has to say.

But anyway, this unique name Bob said for 30 years, and the guy ghosted George Knapp. George could prove he existed. He actually talked to me, man. He talked to me three times. He almost went on camera with me. It's just crazy. What happens after 30 years?

You just get more info. Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important. I really do. I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way. And if you examine all the information that you've said today if you you

look at all the things that the detractors have said if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out and all these really high level people in the military and the government that are discussing this it gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 1980s when this came out fuck yes you can't ignore his story just because you don't like it anymore that's why i thought it was important that you come out and refresh the world's memory and let people know and like i said i've been i mean i want to say i'm a fan of yours but i guess i'm a fan of yours as a human being i'm a fan of yours But I've been following you for decades I've been following the story for decades

No kidding I have VHS tapes at home Bob like a lot of the world has Yeah It's crazy Well anybody that has any sort of A vested interest or Just a

Even a Just a fascination With UFOs Has followed your story Because there's no one else There's no one else That comes forward There's some guy

Who said I worked underground With the aliens And they shot my hand off Like there's a bunch Of like wacky dudes That are underground There's bases

They're shooting lasers Through the earth's crust And they move them At light speed There's a lot of those guys They seem schizophrenic They seem crazy They might even be

Disinformation agents They might be people That are designed To muddy the waters, which for sure has happened. People are coming forward though now. It's amazing. And by doing this, what you're doing, you're providing an opportunity for Bob to tell his story. Believe it or not, he can tell his story. It's amazing because more people will come forward now that are involved with these projects. They'll come forward to you, to me.

They're coming forward. And so what you've done here is provide that opportunity if they need it. And it's amazing. I just want to say, Bob. Just don't come forward to me. No, don't come forward to Bob. Why were you freaking nauseous at the beginning of this? Like so upset?

Why did you have a migraine? Because that started off so hard. My God, I was sitting here like, did this? Why are you asking a migraine Because that started off So hard my god I was sitting here Like did this Well why are you asking him why It's obvious Anxiety

The guy's gone through 30 fucking years Of being persecuted They've erased his birth certificate I just want to hear What do you want to hear from him I want to hear him say I want them to hear

Why do I have to say that You don't Joe just said it We get it I step out Okay Settle down Yeah well I get it

You were It was hard for you To get him here you know and i appreciate for us yeah you well you did what really annoys me are the people that saying you know you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of you know attention and that's a good point so please explain that first of all i don't get any money out of this at all and i may i didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything i mean anytime like when jeremy uh pre previewed i guess the movie up in michigan i mean they it brought in like a couple thousand dollars i made sure that two thousand dollars went to science programs at the local high schools there i don't dirty money

he doesn't want to touch it i don't take any money from this stuff. And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So I got enough hugs when I was a kid, okay? I don't need any attention. So, no, if you think somehow we came up with this thing then you got to tell me why we did it well you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases

covered in that regard that you haven't profited off of this and like you said that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs it's i mean it it doesn't make any sense any other way i mean what you're what i've gotten out of here is what i thought i was going to get out of here when i watched a documentary that you what you're saying makes sense it doesn't make sense that it's bullshit that happened exactly like i said it did joe i believe you um in closing is there anything else you'd like to say no i can't think of anything other than really don't come and try to visit me. Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out.

And, I mean, maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story. But over the past 30 years, it's been immense. It's been great. And I just want to thank you for that and thank you for all all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way oh thanks joe thank you and thank you jeremy and one more time the documentary is available on netflix right now yeah it's called bob lazar area 51 and flying saucers all right That's it, folks.

Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night.

Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night.

Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night.

Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night.