The Joe Rogan Experience - #1361 - Cmdr. David Fravor & Jeremy Corbell

Episode Date: October 5, 2019

Commander David Fravor is a retired US Navy pilot, who has a close encounter in 2004 with the so-called Tic Tac UFO, and Jeremy Corbell is a contemporary artist and documentary filmmaker.

and here we go uh first of all gentlemen thanks for being here jeremy thanks for coming back again thanks joe and uh thanks to you sir it's very excited to be here very exciting for me to be here to be able to talk to you about your story uh thank you i'm glad to be here uh david tell everybody who you are and tell everybody your background, please. Okay. My name is David Fravor. I served 24 years in the military, enlisted Marine for a couple years. They sent me to the Naval Academy. Then I flew for 18 years for the Navy. Literally flew A6s, Hornets, and then Super Hornets.

Had every qualification you could get in the airplane, everything, even the stuff they're not doing anymore. So I had NVG high, low, went to Top Gun. And at the time of the incident that we're going to talk about, I was a commanding officer of VFA-41, the Black Aces. I've gone through a journey with this whole UFO stuff from being a full-on true believer to being incredibly skeptical to trying to be open-minded to being more of a believer now than i think i've ever been before and one of the things that i've always said is the people that i believe that there's a lot of loony people out there but the people that i put my trust in are high-level military people like yourself so when i hear someone like you who has a story that defies

logic or defies conventional understanding of how aircrafts work that's when that's when i sit back and i go okay this this is a different thing because you know you know there's always people that are telling you they're psychic or they can you know they sense things or they're in communication with bigfoot there's always loony people out there but when someone is in the military someone is trained to fly these incredible i mean how expensive are those jets uh when we had them they're about 70 million dollars a piece yeah they don't give those to morons typically not some people in my family would probably argue that point but uh hey better lucky than good it just seems to me that this is for rational people uh that want to look at this whole ufo phenomenon objectively you're the type of person that i want to talk to so i was very excited to

have you in here so what year was your incident and you you have a very, very famous incident that's corroborated by actual evidence, which is one of the rare ones. What year was it and where did it take place? So it was 2004, November 14th. It's really, if you draw San Diego to Ensenada, Mexico, we're about 60 miles off the coast in between the two. We're doing workups. So when we get ready to deploy, this was for the 2005 deployment. We were going at sea for November and December of 2004. So we had been out. I had just taken over the squadron mid-October. So I'd been the CO for a month. So we go out and we're putting the battle group pieces together. So it's

not just the air wing, but we're on the carrier, we've got the cruiser, we've got all the support ships out there, and we're going to integrate all the defenses and train as one unit. So the exercise that we're going to do is an air defense exercise where there's good guys, bad guys. They're all from internal from the air wing. So the bad guys today are going to be the Marines, VMFA 232, the Red Devils. So they're going to launch, and they're going to go about 100 miles south of the ship, and we're the good guys. And we call it a 2v2, so it's two of us against two of them. And we're going to work with the USS Princeton, which is going to be the controller, and they're going to control the blue forces, and then the red guys are going to give us a presentation that they're going to try and intercept so we can stop

them from getting up towards the carrier. So that's kind of the training set that we're all good. They're going to try and intercept so we can stop them from getting up towards the carrier. So that's kind of the training set that we're all good. So the Marines take off first, and they start heading to the south. Now, we have no idea that for two weeks, the two weeks we've been at sea, they've been tracking these things coming out of the sky. And when I talk to the Princeton controller, he's like up to about a dozen of them. They would come down from above 80,000 feet.

They'd drop down to about 20,000 feet. They'd hang out, and then they'd go straight back up after about three or four hours now when you say they've been tracking who specifically this is the uss the princeton is tracking them they saw them on the nimitz radar and the e2 could see them um so because they're out there you know that radar is on all the time and the spy one system on an aegis cruiser is you know the state is probably one of the most sophisticated systems in the world so typically when something like this happens and there is some unexplained phenomenon, what do they do? In this case, you know, if we were in a threat environment, they would tell us. But if we were off the coast of San Diego, it doesn't come to the airwings. So we have no idea that these things are out there at all.

So they observe these things and they never bother telling any of you guys. That's correct. So they just knew that these things had been visiting this area, but they just allowed this training exercise to take place anyway. Yeah. Talking to them, the previous, for the two weeks, they would show up, but it was when we weren't flying. So the typical carrier schedule is, you know, for us, it was about noon to midnight. It's a 12-hour day. There's reasons for that.

It can go a lot longer. But for training, we just do the 12-hour day thing. And it's cyclic ops, so you got guys taking off and landing periodically. So we were on one of the first goes. It's noon, 1 o'clock, somewhere around there, and we take off. The Marines take off first. And my buddy Cheeks, who's the CO of the Marine Squadron, he was leading the Red Air. When he launched off the carrier first, they called him up and said, hey, what have you got on board? Well, the small, the original Legacy F-18s don't have as much gas as the Super Hornets. The Super Hornet's about 30% bigger.

So they start talking to him about fuel, and based on how long we're going to be airborne and everything else, they go, hey, why don't you just go ahead and proceed to your cap point, because we had just taken off. And that's when the controller had come up and said, hey, I forget our cost. It's probably like dealer is usually what we went. So it'd be like dealer one, one. This is a Princeton control. What do you got?

You know, say your load out. And I kind of chuckled. He said, I said, well, I got a Catom nine, which is a, it's a basically just a blue metal tube with a seeker head for an AIM nine IR missile. It's a training. It doesn't come off the airplane. You can beat it with a sledgehammer. That's the only way you're going to get it off,

or you got to unlock the lugs with a key. So I'm like kind of chuckling. He goes, well, hey, we're going to cancel the training. So we're like, okay. He says, we got real world vector, and they're going to send us out to the west. So picture if it's, you know, if you've got a clock, the Nimitz is in the middle. We're a little bit south of that, about 40 miles south, and then the Marines are about 100 miles south of the ship, about 60 miles between the two of us. So as this is all happening, my wingman is joining up, and these are F-18Fs, so there's two people in each jet.

So it's me and my WIZO, which is weapons systems operator, and I've got the other pilot and the weapons systems operator in the other jet. So they tell us all this. Hey, we're going to real-world vector, and they send us out 270, about 60 miles away from where we're going. So now we're going out even further out to sea. We have no idea what we're intercepting, and this is when the controller starts talking to us. He says, hey, sir, we've seen these objects. They've been – for two weeks they've been coming down, and he's given us the whole story.

He says, we need you to go investigate. We want to know what these are. But they're asking you to investigate in a jet that's unarmed. That's correct. Okay. Yeah, we have no – and there's reasons for that, that we don't fly – we typically don't fly with live ordnance unless we're actually going into like a combat zone or we're on a training range and we're going to shoot something. And the reason is you can go through history of the Navy or Air Force. If you put live missiles on airplanes and then you start doing training where you're squeezing the trigger, someone always messes the switchology up and someone gets shot down. It's happened multiple times.

So we don't do it. There's times that we do, but it's rare. So we start flying out to the west. Now, I want you to think because the other pilot has a – when you talk to – it's out there. It was a female. It has a – when you talk to – it's out there. It was a female. When you talk to her, it's – here's the – kind of goes through the mindset of, hey, we're off the coast of Mexico, real-world vector.

We have no idea what we're going to look at. Probably a drug runner because you get the drug runners coming up the coast. So we're like, okay. So we drive out and they're calling down ranges. So they're telling us, hey, it's 270 at 30 miles at 20,000 feet. And it's, you know, and then you just count down the ranges. And we're talking back and forth the whole time. So they got to a point where they say, hey, merge plot, which means radars have resolution cells, you know, range and azimuth of what the radar can actually see. Once you're inside that box, you can't tell the difference between me and the object I'm going at.

We'll just become one big blob. So they call merge plot. And so the other jet is on my left-hand side. And I'm going to go to a clock code to make it simple. So the object we're going to end up looking for is right in the middle of the clock. And we are at the 6 o'clock position. And my wingman is off to my left side. So she's further down with her widow so as we're looking around we we look to the right and there's

a it was yesterday was a perfect example out here the water is perfectly calm no white caps i mean it's literally a perfect san diego california day and we see white water something like if you see a seamount you know rock underwater when you're standing on the shore and the waves are breaking over and you're like what is that it's usually because there's a rock under the water so it looks like that but it's about the size of a 737 it actually kind of has a shape of like a cross and it's pointing to the east so you've got the long part going east west and you got a couple of things going north and south so as we're looking at it because that kind of draws our eyes,

we're like, oh, that's kind of odd. We look down and the WIZO and the other airplane comes up and says, hey, skipper, do you? And that's about what he gets out of his mouth. And I'm kind of looking at the same thing. I go, dude, do you see that? What is that thing? And what we see is this white tic-tac looking object

just above the surface of the water pointing north-south and it's going north-south, east-west. It's just radically moving forward, back, left, right at will. And it's moving around the disturbance, the whitewater that we see. How big is this thing? Over time, it's about 40 feet long. And the way I estimate that is, I mean, I got a lot of time fighting other airplanes. So it's about the size of a Hornet, a few slides. So that's why I say 40 feet. And this thing's just going left. So the first thing you see when you look down, you go, and this is with our eyes, it's not sensors, right? So we're looking down at this thing. And

first thing you think is helicopter, right? The helicopters typically stay below 200 feet when we're out there and they're just driving around. We're pretty far away from the ship for a helicopter for one of ours. So what is it? So the first thing you look for is rotor wash. You know, if you've watched any TV show that starts kicking the water up and you can see that it's really easy to see from the air. So we're like, no, no rotor wash. Matter of fact, don't see any rotors. Don't see any tail rotor. Don't see any, you know, the main rotors are like, that's kind of weird. So as we're driving around, we're looking at this thing. We get to about the nine o'clock position. How far away are you from this thing?

I'm at 20,000 feet and it's right down on the surface, right off our right side. So I'm probably maybe a couple miles lateral and 20,000 feet and we're just watching it move around. And so it's very small in your eyes. Not overly small. I mean, an airplane down that low, it's 40 feet. You can see pretty well with, it was pretty clear. So I'm like, okay. So I said, I'm gonna go check it out that's what we're trained to do the other pilot says hey i'm gonna stay up here and i'm like that's perfect so now we'll get some separation we'll get it from different views and the other airplane will kind of have a god's eye view everything that's going on as i go down and

check this thing out so i start driving around and it's still doing its forward back left right it's still pointing north south we get to about the 12 o'clock position. I'm just in a nice, easy descent. The reason, because I've been asked, could you go more aggressive? You can, but when you're out over water, the water looks the same at 20,000 feet as it does at 2,000 feet. So you can easily put yourself in a non-recoverable position if you're not paying attention and you go into the water. So I got this nice, easy descent. I get to about 12 o'clock, and as I'm coming down, I know, I could guess probably about, you know, 18,000 feet now, a couple thousand feet below the other airplane. The tic-tac just kind of rapidly goes boop and

turns. So now it's kind of pointing east-west and now it mirrors us. So it's above the surface. We're up high. We're coming down. It starts coming up. I'm like, well, this is getting interesting. So we kind of drive all the way around a circle. I'm descending. It starts coming up. Well, this is getting interesting. So we kind of drive all the way around a circle. I'm descending. It's coming up. And I get over to about the 8 o'clock position on the clock. And it's over at about the 2 o'clock position.

Well, the quickest way, as we know as kids, to get someone, you know, you can keep going around the circle. Nothing's going to happen. You cut across the circle. So I'm about, I don't know, probably 2,000 to 3,000 feet above it. And I just kind of drop my nose aggressively, and I cut across the circle, and it's coming this way. It's because I'm trying to fly to where it's going to be because I want to join on it. I want to see how close I can get to it.

And as I'm pulling up, it's kind of starting to cross my nose, and it starts to accelerate, and within about less than a second, as I start to pull nose onto it and it crosses right in front of me, it just goes poofof and it's gone. So I call the other airplane. I said, hey, do you guys see that thing? And they're like, sir, it's gone. We don't see it at all. So I'm like, okay, that's kind of weird.

So we don't see it. We're looking. At the same time, I say, hey, let's turn around and let's go back to see what was in the water. Was there something there? So we turn around. We're right there. We haven't gone anywhere. It's gone.

Water's perfectly. There's no white water, nothing. It's just blue. We're like, okay. So we turn back around. Now we're heading back out towards the east. And I tell the controller, I said, well, I said, you know, I first said, I'm kind of weirded out. And I told my backseater that.

We start heading back and the controller on the Princeton comes up and he says, sir, you're not going to believe this, but that thing is back at your cap point. That was our original point where we were going to hold 40 miles south of the ship. So this thing has went from wherever we were at to about 60 miles in maybe 30, 40 seconds. It's already over there. And it just, and they didn't track it. It just appeared. He just shows back up on their radar and they go, it's here. So we're like, okay. So we fly back. We don't see it. We don't see it on our radar. We don't see it on any of our sensors. We do like two runs and we come back to the ship and land. So as we're in our, it's, we call it the PR shop. We're taking off our flight gear. One of my crews is getting ready to go out and I think

they were going to be on a tanker mission, but they had a targeting pod on board. So they launch off and we're telling them about this before. And the backseater, Chad says, he's really determined, he's going to find this thing. So he tells the pilot, hey, we're going to find this thing. So they're just out driving around, and in the back seat of a Super Hornet, there's no stick, but there's side stick controllers, and they're to control the sensors because that's what the weapons systems guys do. And they can change displays really fast by just hitting a button, and it will flip from the radar to the targeting pod. And the way the system actually works is when you see something on the radar and you designate it as your primary target, all the other sensors will look at that point. So it's everything is kind of synced together. So he picks up a hit on his radar and he goes to lock it up because I've watched all the tapes. He goes to lock it up and immediately the radar can tell,

it gets signals back that it's being jammed. And technically jamming is an act of war. It starts jamming the radar. It goes into a jam extrapolate. A bunch of stuff happens on the scope. Well, he's smart enough to castle to his targeting pod, and he takes a passive track. And that's the video that you see of the Tic Tac where it's just sitting in the middle of the screen real quiet.

So he does that, and he goes through it. If you watched the video, if we had it, I'd go through it with you. But they go through all the different modes. So he goes, it's an IR and an EO. EO is TV. It's a black-and-white TV camera. We can get the video, right, online? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Let's get the video, Jamie. Where would you – you can't show it to anybody. We can't show it on YouTube, but you can see it, and people will be able to go to it. You know what we'll do? can see it and people will be able to go to it you know what we'll do go to the video and we'll tell people when we're starting and we'll tell people what the title of the video that you get to is and they can sync it up themselves if they're watching it it's publicly owned sir yeah it's it's publicly owned it's you know american government right so it is actually something in

the public domain so you think we could play it on youtube and not get pulled yeah a hundred percent you think so jamie it's a government those get pulled? Yeah. A hundred percent. You think so, Jamie? It's a government. I would say yes, we should be able to, but sometimes those things get messy. Let's take a chance. Let's take a chance with this one. I know if you go on a New York Times article, there's a link to it. It's a Pentagon release. YouTube is crazy with copyright stuff, and we've always been like two steps away from getting pulled off of YouTube completely.

It's a real disaster. I understand from their perspective there's a lot of legal issues they have to deal with, but... I have it on a private server. I could maybe send Jamie...

The issue I believe, though, is the actual copyright of the video itself. Oh, it's just it's a Pentagon release video. Pentagon release. Okay. And the Pentagon's

going to come after us. I don't think so. I don't think so either. Did you find it? I want to find a good version of the video that doesn't have somebody else's copy. Jeremy, do you know? Yeah, I've got an un-watermarked version. Let me just look it up and send it to you.

Jeremy will get it to us. I have to figure out how to send it to you right here. Give me a second. Do you have AirDrop? Could you AirDrop it? Yeah, but I got it on a page, a private page that can send a private page I can send Jamie oh yeah okay okay do you have Jamie's uh info no okay I'll figure it out what you said to me and I'll send it to him okay that's pretty easy sorry to disrupt the momentum no but I think this it's

probably important to be able to have the video itself so you can just talk about it. And we're about to yank it up here. Okay, Jamie wrote it down for you. There you go. Give me a second to get it out. Okay. And for people who don't know, Jeremy also produced Bob Lazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers. And he was in here when we had Bob Lazar in, talk about Bob's experience.

And, Jesus, if that wasn't a game changer for me and for a lot of other people. This is a subject that it's so easy to mock. You know, this is why I think it's so important that we talk to people like you. Because, like I said, just your average everyday ufo crack pot they believe everything and anything have you did you had you ever had any ufo experiences before this no the irony and i i tell this story my mother-in-law she'll be listening she she literally every time i would go home she would ask me, did you see UFO? Did you see a UFO? And I'd be like, no.

When I first started dating my wife, she was a big like national inquirer. She had all the supermarket tabloids and I would always just feed her crap for it. So this happens and I never say a word. So my friends all knew it was a great story over beers because they'd go, hey, what's the coolest thing you ever saw flying? I'd go, I chased a UFO. And they'd go, get out of here. I'd go, no, seriously. And I'd tell them the story and they're like, dude because they'd go, hey, what's the coolest thing you ever saw flying? I go, I chased a UFO. And they go, get out of here. I go, no, seriously. And I tell them the story and they're like, dude.

I go, yeah. So I go home and I got asked by Lou Elizondo to do the New York Times article, which as like anything else, I always say no. Like it took a bunch of times to get me on your show. Jeremy kept asking, asking, asking. And it was – Thank you, Jeremy. You got to thank my contractor's wife, Angel, who – we were at a party drinking, and she goes, you've got to do Rogan. I go, what?

She goes, it's the biggest podcast on the planet. She goes, you've got to do it. And I go, all right, I'm going to do it. Just for you, I'm going to do this show. Shout out to Angel. Yeah, from New Hampshire. So my mother-in-law, we're sitting there, and I know the New York Times article is going to come out. And so it was at Thanksgiving in – – when the article came out, 17.

So it was Thanksgiving in 2017. And everyone had kind of left the house. So it's just my wife and my in-laws, a couple of us sitting in the kitchen. And I said, hey, I got to tell you guys this. They said, what? I said, there's going to be this article comes out in the New York Times, and I'm in it. And they're like, yeah. I go, well, I chased a UFO.

My mother-in-law is like, ha-ha. She looks at my father-in-law. He's rolling his eyes looking at me like, are you serious? And I go, like, yeah. I go, well, I chased a UFO. My mother-in-law is like, ha-ha. She looks at my father-in-law. He's rolling his eyes looking at me like, are you serious? And I go, yeah, yeah. And she's like, you never told us. I go, I never really told anyone. I mean, my wife and kids knew the event happened, but they didn't have all the details because it was just one of those things I just didn't get into. Is it classified?

No. Was it at any point in time? No, there's a lot of rumors out there that I was classified and the ship got locked down. No, it wasn't. It was, we were never, men in suits did not show up. No one told us not to talk about it. And this is because there's a lot of other people saying other things. And I said, let's look at it.

Here's the context. So in the battle group, you've got the Admiral, you got the captain of the ship, the captain of the Princeton, and then you've got the other COs. So position-wise, I'm probably, as a CO of a squadron, in the top 20 out of 6,000. And no one came to talk to me. No one came to take my tapes. No one showed up in a suit. No one told me not to talk. No one talked to any of my air crew that were involved in this.

There were six people total involved, the two that shot the video and the four of us that looked at it for five minutes with our eyes. No one, nothing. It just, and I can get into how, you know, there's a report that George Knapp got released. It's a, I call it the unofficial official report. And I had met someone and I'm like, hey, can you find anything out? I had this incident. And normally you tell people this, they look at you like, dude, what are you smoking? I'm like, no, no, I'm good. I'm tested. And they go, and they said, well, let me see what I can do. And I had got a call. I was working, I was doing some aerospace work and I had gotten a call on my cell phone from a guy. And he said, hey, I want to investigate your incident. And I go, okay.

So he did. He investigated the incident and it was very, very thorough. I mean, if you've read that, it's about 10 pages long. And he, I mean, he tracked down everybody. He tracked down all the people that were, the air crew that were involved. He talked to, he tracked down the Admiral. He talked to, I mean, he, it was a pretty thorough report and I didn't think anything of it,

you know, because, you know, you know, the people were worried that it's out there, so they want to do FOIA, but it was never released in a FOIA request. I actually had the Navy call me.

I'd been out of the Navy for like six years. And let's explain to people that means freedom of information. So I got called by a public affairs person from the navy and said hey is this commander favorite i said yeah they said hey do you know of any documentation on your ufo incident off the nimitz and i said official and she said yeah i said no because i knew the report existed but to me it was an unofficial because i didn't know who where it went And I had a copy of it, but because it wasn't official. Well, then years later, I find out that the guy who actually did the report was part of the AATIP team.

And I was talking to Lou Elizondo, who runs that program. And Lou showed me the documentation of the original. I think it's like 13 people that were part of AATIP and they were fully exempt. And I'm like, well, that's kind of, well, hey, I know that guy. He's the guy that did the report, which is why it never ever came out until George got his hands on it. How is something Freedom of Information Act exempt? Obviously, DOD has the ability, because I'm not a conspiracy theory person at all. I mean, I'll just tell you that. And I think there's reasons that the government doesn't tell the

public everything. And I don't speak for the government, but I think there's a good reason for that, that not everything needs to go out to the public. But most of it does. And they just, what they do is they put a clause on, hey, for this program or whatever we're doing, which would have been an ATEP program, the work that they do and what they find is not, it's not releasable through Freedom Information Act. There's probably other avenues to get that. You know, and then you go, well, what really is freedom information? Because I got into this on a, I was talking to someone who's a conspiracy theorist and they said, well, so-and-so wrote and they're not getting any information on your event. I said, so what are they going to do? They're going to call up,

you're going to put in your request for freedom of information. You go, here's what I want. It goes to some poor guy at the Pentagon who's like, I have no idea what this is. And he searches around. He doesn't find anything. He looks at his bud and I go, you know, for you, I go, hey, Joe, you got anything on the Nimitz incident? And you go, nope. And I go, okay, well, I didn't find anything. I looked. I did my due diligence.

But I'm not going to spend the next six months of my life doing your research project for you. So you get nothing and then you assume the government's covering up when the government really isn't. They just, you know, the guys doing the research doesn't know where it's at or doesn't have access to it. Makes sense. Jamie, we have the video? Okay. Here we go. Now, explain what are we seeing and why are we seeing it in this particular shade?

Okay, so we'll just kind of go around. So if you look at the OPRs operate on the top left corner, NAR is narrow field of view, which is zoomed in. IR at the top middle, it means it's an infrared mode so instead of seeing color you're seeing temperature variations and these things are extremely sensitive to in like tenths of degrees they will tell you the difference to color so it'll go from black to white so in this case white is hot so if you look down on the bottom left corner it says wht um that's white it means white is hot so the object that you're looking at is

hotter than the sky around it but what you also notice is there's no plumes now if you're looking at an airplane when you get closer you'll actually see the exhaust coming out and there will be a really glowing plume that's important as we look at the video and then the most of the stuff on here you really don't need to know what you can look at is uh the bottom right corner says 19,990 and a b that's the altitude and uh if you look up in the little words where it says HDG and then BALT, it's autopilot. So it's on altitude hold. It's just flying for that. So you can go ahead and play the video.

And so those two bars next to the white object, that's a passive track. So what he's done is he's commanded the FLIR to track that. So what the system does is it uses, it's actually tracking, it can track pixels, and it's just basically blocked those hot pixels, those white pixels from the black ones. And then you're going to see now, pause it real quick. So over the top, see it went to white screen with the black object. This is a black and white TV mode. And if you look at the top, it says TV. So narrow in TV mode is actually, you can get closer than narrow in IR. It's literally narrow in IR is about medium in

TV mode. So you can get closer with the TV mode. So as you look at it now, in this case, you would actually start to see stuff going on. And even in TV mode, because you get exhaust, you know, the black exhaust that comes out, you'll usually be able to see kind of some of that coming out of the back and you don't see anything. This thing's just sitting there. And if you look at the top where it says three, right, that's the pod is looking three degrees right at the nose of the airplane, right? So he's just flying along the bottom numbers. Don't worry, those are time. So it's 4156. So go ahead and hit play. And what he's doing is he's going, Chad's going through all the different modes because he's like, oh, I got it. And he's doing is he's going chad's going through all the different modes because

he's like oh i got it and he's going to try and see the best video that you can get now there's rumors that this video is like 10 minutes long no what you're looking at is the entire video now notice where it says 99.9 so hit pause real quick what that means is the why he's got the pod the targeting pod because that's his primary sensor right now the radar is still trying to look at this object and trying to range it and the radar can't get ranging on it. So the object is doing something to say, I'm not giving you back, because it's just a Doppler radar, just like a police radar is a Doppler. It's trying to get a ranging on you, and it can't do it.

So when it says 99.9, the radar cannot see this object right now. It's not allowing it to get ranging. And I think that's super important, Dave, the way he explained it to me. Active jamming compared to passive jamming. This is a technology that is actively jamming this system. Rather than something like stealth aircraft, which is the shape and the texture of the – Yeah, it's – because everyone thinks stealth is invisible. It's not.

It's just – it's a technology to basically make it harder for radars to see you. You know, and that's the whole thing. You know, if you look at, you know, airplanes that are nose on are harder to see than airplanes at the side. It's kind of like, think of a barn door. If you're looking at the whole barn door, it's really easy to see. If I turn the barn door sideways where it's really thin, it's going to be a lot harder for you to see it. So that's the easiest, most basic way to look at this. So keep going. You can play again and you can look, the airplane is still sitting at 20,000 feet. It's doing 250 knots. He's going to go through different modes and try and lock it. And it's just kind of sitting in all of a sudden as the video goes on, I think it's a minute and

a half long. See, it's going to try and reacquire, it recenters the pod. So it's slowly drifting to the left. The Hornet slowly drifting to the left. The Hornet is still going the same heading, just kind of hanging out, and they're just filming this thing. And then when they get close, it's going to zing off the left-hand side. When you see it on a full – because you think digital, you'd be able to get a one-for-one copy, unlike when you copy your album to a cassette, you lose a little quality.

Well, you still do in digital world. And off it goes to the left. And that's pretty fast to leave that field of view. We have big monitors that we look at these when they come back. So we're looking at the original tapes. Play the end of that again, please, Jamie. So when it's taking off, when it just sort of like leaves the field of view and takes off to the left, how fast is that going? I would say pretty fast.

It's an estimate. If we had ranging, you know, you could obviously do the triangle and go, hey, because we know how big the field of view is. But for something to leave the field of view that fast with the pod just staring is pretty fast. I mean, it just – it's like out of here. Like nothing that we have? No, because we can't – I don't care what airplane it is. So let's just use the F-22 Raptor. That's probably one of the – it's probably the best airplane in the world right now performance-wise. It can't take off like that, especially if it's a hover.

I mean you're talking something that's just sitting in space in the wind, and then it just all of a sudden accelerates. Airplanes don't work that way. And it's not leaving any exhaust plume. No. Notice there's none. And when you go back to the IR – But again, the IR at the end? Even in the IR, you don't see – Yeah, so there's IR zoomed in, and there's no – you would you go back to the IR. Late again, jamming at the end? Even in the IR, you don't see.

Yeah, so there's IR zoomed in, and there's no – you would see a plume if that was an airplane. It's creepy how it takes off. Yeah. With active jamming, it's intelligently controlled. There's no rotors. There's no plumes. There's no exhaust. There's no tail fin.

There's no tail number. This thing goes from a standstill, takes off. It's a propulsion system we don't have in our inventory and no other nation does. That's how it's understood by the government. Now, if the fastest plane on earth was trying to do that same maneuver, this system would be able to track it? Yeah, it would stay with it until it got to the limits of the pod you know as far as looking to the left but all right and you know the radar would see it i mean we get you get close enough you're gonna you know everything becomes visible because you get burned through with radar

and how how radars actually work this one is you know you me, but this was performance beyond. I mean, it's like when we saw it disappear when it flew in front of my nose. I'm talking something, I'm within a half mile of it looking at it. And it gets in front of me and just disappears. So we'll just go to something that everyone knows as fast. Let's just say SR-71 that's doing Mach 3. You know, the visibility is 50 miles. one that's doing Mach 3.

You know, the visibility is 50 miles. So even at 35 miles a minute, I'm going to be able to see this thing turn into a little dot as it goes off into the horizon for probably a minute. The thing that we saw disappeared in a second. Just gone. And that's from two different angles. Remember, the other airplane is 8,000 feet above me because we get close to it at about 12,000 feet. So the other airplane is above me looking down. And when it disappeared, I said, do you guys

see it? And they said, no, it's gone. It just literally was poof. Now, when you came back and what do you do with this information? Do you report it? Do you talk to people about it? So the typical process, anytime we fly, everything gets debriefed. So because it was a two seat airplane, usually the junior person in the jet goes down.

So I was the boss, so I wasn't going down there. So we have a thing called Civic, C-V-I-C, which is the Carrier Intel Center. So they go down. We always take our tapes because we record stuff when we're fighting. They take it down, and it's really to exercise the system when we're in training so that when we actually get over to, in this case, we were going over to the Persian Gulf, anything that we do comes in and gets debriefed, and then it all gets sent off. That's how you get the CNN video and all that. So they go down, and they debrief, and they have to tell, hey, we chased this object. We don't know what it is.

And, of course, everyone now is going to make jokes because we know we're going to catch shit because that's how the Navy works. And I told him, I said, I remember telling the guy in my backseat, I said, dude, you know, we're going to catch maximum shit for this. And he goes, yes, sir. I'll show you the comics. I have them on my phone. We do. The airplane comes out. So we know it's going to come down. So he goes in.

They debrief this. Both crews go in. And, of course, everyone at Intel thinks this is hilarious. So the flight, you know, Chad comes in with his tapes, you know, when he lands. And here's the thing. Oh, VFA-41. Ha-ha. You guys see any UFOs out there?

And he pulls out that tape and drops it on the counter. He goes, yeah, it's on here. So they're like, oh, shit. So they copy it. They play it. And there's a big – it looks like oh shit so they copy it they play it and there's a big it looks like a rack system they put the eight mil in it gets copied to a hard drive and then they they archive it so you go okay so they got this video and then you know the ship this spreads you know if you have a rumor on the ship 5 000 people are going to know about it within

probably 30 minutes i mean it spreads. It's like a virus. So the whole ship now knows that we chased this. I guarantee the whole Princeton knew this stuff was going on. And it goes all the way up. The Admiral knows about it. The captain of the ship knew about it. And then all the movies, because we have – they play movies for us on the ship, and they run like a 12-hour loop. So, of course, the movie selection is Men in Black, Men in Black 2, Signs, Independence Day.

And we know we're going to be on the airplane comic because there's always a comic. So you do something stupid or like this, then you're going to be on the comic. I'll show you the comics here in a little bit. They're pretty funny. But, you know, so that went on for two days. But, you know, we're in the middle of workups. I got a squadron to run. So it's like, you know, there was after about the first day and a half, it really died down. And then it was the,

there's always that closet people that you don't think that are really like UFO buffs. And, you know, like we had one of the, one of the Marines would always come and he'd sit down. Hey, hey, Skipper, can I sit with you? I go, you want to talk about the UFO? He goes, yeah, I just, I can't get it out of my mind. And then we would just sit there and talk about it, you know? And to me, it was like, you know. We were just saying, you know, my entire now flying career is defined by five minutes of chasing this white Tic Tac, vice almost 4,000 hours, you know, flying. Now, did you encounter anyone else that had a similar experience?

I've talked to the guys, a couple of guys from the East Coast event, the gimbal video. One of them I talk to daily. He's a pretty good friend of mine. Totally different now. Keep in mind, ours is 2004. The gimbal video is 2015. The funny part about the gimbal video and the East Coast stuff that was going on, because that's off the vacate. So off the coast of the United states are they're called warning areas and all they are is they're if you look on a aviation map they're these big

areas that are blocked off by blue and they say like whiskey 291 or whiskey 243 and is the gimbal video available in the same way that that video is available yes yeah government okay find that jamie so and i was talking to him about it because I actually have a buddy of mine who just retired. He was the – he led the fighter wing on the East Coast and I had called him up because we start finding out that these things were so prevalent out off the East Coast of the United States. And there's a couple of them. So there's the – we're going to talk. What they started seeing originally was these things and one of them almost hit – an airplane almost hit one of these things. But it looks like a cube inside of a clear beach ball.

So they don't know if it's actually like a surrounding or you don't know if it's a force field. And you see kind of in the gimbal video, it's got like an aura around it where ours didn't. I always laugh. I go, ours was a tic-tac. These are not. That means there's different stuff out there

that we don't know. But they had two airplanes flying and we fly when we go out to train, we usually have a distance, we'll fly when we go out to train. Usually we have a distance. We'll just say we're a mile apart. As we're flying out, so they're flying out, and the airplanes are deployed. We call it combat spread. And one of the airplanes almost hits one of these, goes close down like 50 feet down the side,

and almost hits one of these floating cubes inside of the beach ball. And someone goes, wow, it's a balloon. It's not a balloon. I mean, these things are literally sitting still. They're no effect from the wind. So if you've got 90 knots of wind and they talk about it, these things are just sitting there. So 60 or 70 people had seen it because the radars,

the newer radar in the Super Hornets is extremely, extremely capable. And at first when they started seeing stuff they were like ah it's just like maybe it's the radar just give me a false target and that radar really doesn't give false targets and then someone did exactly what chad did is they threw their targeting flare out there and all of a sudden when you see a heat signature there's a return there's obviously something out where that blip is at what is a targeting flare uh that's a the we call it the AT flare. It's an advanced targeting flare.

It sits on the left side of the airplane and it's – So you launch it like a flare? No, no. It's a flare, forward-looking infrared receiver. Oh. So it's – when you see the bombs blowing up on TV and it looks like a black and white and you see it fly, that's the targeting pod. Okay. It's got a laser in it.

It's got an IR marker in it. It's a very capable system that syncs up to the Hornet, so everything kind of marries up. So this is the GoFast. No, this is GoFast. That's not it? No, it's the other one. It's the one that looks like the... What is that one? That's called the GoFast. That looks like a Tic Tac, and that was another one taken

off the East Coast, but they grab it and it's... Bookmark that one. It's going... It's screaming across the ocean at a very high rate of speed. And there's been some debunkers that say, well, really not going that fast it's just the way the airplane is and how the mechanics of the pot are working when you talk to the crew because it's actually i could ask my bud i'm pretty sure it's the same backseater took both of these videos took the go fast video and took the gimbal video and my buddy was on the flight with the gimbal video but they these things i so i called my bud because i'm like hey how many people are seeing video and took the gimbal video. And my buddy was on the flight with the gimbal video. But they,

these things, so I called my bud because I'm like, hey, how many people are seeing these things? They're like, I got like 60 or 70. 60 or 70. 60 or 70 people had seen these things on radar. And I said, well, what do you do? And they said, well, we put out a NOTAM, which is a notice to airmen that just says, hey, these things are out there. So just be careful because we don't want you to hit one. Yeah. Whoa. And it's kind of like ours. You go, because we don't want you to hit one yeah whoa and uh it's kind of like ours you go because you would ask you know who do you tell well everyone knows well what do you do and i said well because it was all white and it didn't have any markings on it and it didn't have any wings and it didn't have any rotors and it was just outperformed anything

that we have yeah i think if i would have painted china or Russia on the side. Is this the gimbal video? Yes. Okay. So it's the same pod. Starting from the beginning, Jeremy? What we're looking at. And when the crew finds it, now what you're not seeing, you're seeing the targeting. When you hear them start talking, when you listen to the video, you'll hear the guy go, dude, look, they're all over.

Look at the SA page. So we have a situational awareness page. And whatever the radar is getting returns on, it will show up. It's kind of like our God's eye view in the airplane. So the pod can only look at one thing. So he designates that as his primary target. So that's where the pod is staring. The radar is still seeing everything else.

So what they're actually seeing in this video is when you see the object that he's tracking, when I was talking to one of the other pilots, he said there's actually, when you see the radar video, there's like a – it almost looks like a formation in front of them, like five smaller ones that are moving in front of it. And then they turn. So like a formation, these things turns and starts going the other way while they're filming the gimbal video. And that's kind of the comms when you hear, dude, holy cow, look, they're all over. This is unreported new information that he's actually saying right now. Everybody knows this video. This is the one that they say turns like the Lazar craft, like belly first.

However, what he's telling you right now is something that is not public yet. He's telling you that there was a V formation of other objects that the public has yet to see. You're not going to. You're not going to. You're not going to. It's just a radar tape. But there were more objects surrounding this is what he's telling you right now, which is fascinating because the world doesn't know that yet.

Just so you know. I mean, that's brand new. That's never been reported by New York Times, anybody. Okay. So you can go ahead and play. So the cool thing with this is You know when he goes into So he's in IR mode right now

You're still seeing no plume He's looking 47 So they're actually turning into it So it's starting to pull it back towards the nose See how the number at the top is decreasing And it's against the wind Now he's in TV mode And this thing's gonna just start to roll

And you can kind of see it's got that aura around it He said they were saying that the the ones with the squares inside that look like the beach ball are the same and this thing is just hanging out so it's on the airplanes in a left-hand turn and it's so now it's right in front yeah it's it's just rotating now this is how Lazar described. Yes. Put that up. Right. Lazar described that, that these things would lay flat, and then when they would travel, they would turn up on their side. And that's how they maneuvered. So this is very similar.

Eerily similar to the propulsion system that Lazar talked about. eerily similar to the propulsion system that Lazar talked about. And that's why this video, we're seeing it very differently now, especially with what we know about Lazar. But the idea is that it would fly belly first in high speed mode. So if they have, these are gravity propelled. This is something that's known within the government. They're trying to back engineer it. They're trying to understand it.

We know there's a program currently that they said is gone. However, it is currently active to study this. These things will turn belly first, the saucer type looking ones. And then that's the high speed mode because they focus allegedly, you know, these gravity wave amplifiers. Look, this thing turns mechanically. There again, no typical form of propulsion, as an expert is telling you. This is not a glitch. This is seen by multiple radars, multiple people. Commander Fravor was so close to it.

This is something that is not aerodynamic, and it could move in ways and fashions. When he's underplaying it, when we first talked, the idea of this thing going, it's instantaneous acceleration back and forth there's no slowing down no turning like a ping pong ball he said me our first talk ping pong ball in a in a glass nothing moves like that with traditional reactionary propulsion somebody has technology that we don't have in our inventory at all so this is counterintuitive the way it goes from being aerodynamic to being un-aerodynamic when it goes sideways and then flies belly forward. That's correct. Well, if you talk, because I was just talking to a guy the other day, and he said the irony with this is these things would be out there for hours.

We don't have – a high-performance airplane does not have hours worth of gas. I mean, Hornets, if we don't have aerial refueling and we're actually out doing a mission and fighting and going fast, you're talking hour and a half and you're coming back to land. Some airplanes are even less based on their size. So like an F-16 doesn't have external fuel tanks. It doesn't have a lot of gas. And the Soviet airplanes are the same way. The MiG-29 does not have a lot of gas. The Su-27, Su-30s have a lot of gas. And the Soviet airplanes are the same way. The MiG-29 does not have a lot of gas. The Su-27, Su-30s have a lot of gas. Because of weight?

It's weight, performance, size of the airplane. So, you know, even our intercontinental bombers like B-2, they still take off and they air or fuel. They keep topped off so they can get to range. That's how we extend things. You got something like this that's coming down. You know, just think of the physics. So just, I'll got something like this that's coming down, you know, just think of the physics. So just the, I'll use my incident because that's the one I really know

the best is you've got an object coming from above 80,000 feet. So I'll just tell you that 80,000, it's somewhere around 70, 80,000 feet is where you can actually start to see the curvature of the earth, you know, so that's considered space. So they're coming from above that. They're coming straight down. They stop at around 20,000 feet. They hang out for three hours and then they go straight back up. So, and I know you had Elon on the show. So SpaceX is really excited because they can launch a rocket and then they can have the booster come back to earth and actually land on a pad. Very impressive engineering feat. land on a pad. Very impressive engineering feat. Next to this technology, that's like a Model T next to a Porsche. I mean, it's like, wow, really? That's it? You know, and you got something that

can just at will move around. Now take it to the next level. And I know there's a lot of talk about this, so Dave's going to go into speculation mode. But when you take a shape like that, so just take the tic-tac shape, which is shaped like a submarine. If you're using a propulsion that's non-reactive where you're just manipulating the median that you're in, air, whatever, you can go into the water. So when you hear all the reports of, hey, we've seen these things since World War II that would come out of the water and fly, if you have a technology like this, as long as the object is sealed where you're not going to get water inside of it, there's nothing that says you can't do that. Because all you're doing is you're not, you know, where a jet engine sucks in air and blows it out the back or a propeller actually pushes the water.

It's a force. Now you've got something that's actually manipulating the gravity field and it's just moving through a void. Then it doesn't, then air, you could literally literally in theory, fly, go into the ocean, cruise around, pop back up, fly around, go to space. Nothing, you remove the barriers of the normal propulsion that we have today. There's been many instances of sightings off the coast of California of things that plunge into the water or escape from the water and take off into space. So yeah, with the field propulsion system,

as Commander Fravor is describing, as Lazar described, it doesn't matter the medium of space, air, or water. There's no resistance, no splash. And this goes back to, you know, when Christopher Columbus reported a UFO sighting. He did? Oh, yeah.

This idea, so this has been around, anyway, this idea, boom, that you can go through These different mediums Hold, pause for a second, Christopher Columbus had a UFO sighting? Yeah, it's a written account So it's like, no video It's not video No video

I'm shocked But that's what's so cool So Commander Fravor's encounter It's not the most documented it's not the most documented. It's not the most dramatic. However, it has had the most impact out of any sighting because of his credibility and the mere fact that the New York Times picked it up with video footage, radar evidence, and somebody who is as credible as Commander Fravor. It has changed the dynamic of the way people, the government responds. New Navy protocols,

because of Commander Fravor coming forward. There are closed-door congressional and Senate briefings. He's been part of them. He's admitted that before. There's a new study about UFOs because of this encounter. It's so much evidence, has so much power to it compared to other ones so christopher columbus great cool story somebody wrote it down who knows who knows if he even

wrote it down we have highly documented cases this one has changed our culture and that's what's so cool people are talking about it differently so here's this is a good story this is true so i was sitting at home and usually when people try and find me they get my wife's cell phone because it's the first one on the cell phone bill, and it's all in my name. So I see this call from California, and I'm like, and normally I don't answer them. And it's her phone. I'm like, who's calling my wife? Because that is me.

So I answer it, and this lady says, hey, is Commander Fravor there? And I go, who's calling? And she goes, well, I'd like to talk to Commander Fravor. I go, who's calling? And she says, hi, I'm a 79-year-old woman, and I would just like to tell him my story. I go, well, you're talking to him. And she goes, I've never in my life told anyone this.

She goes, I grew up, my dad was in the Navy. She goes, he was stationed in Rhode Island at first when she was a child. She said we were walking, her and her mom were walking on the beach, and they saw these weird lights. So that kind of got her into that, ooh, UFOs. She goes, a few years later, they had moved to San Francisco. So I imagine Treasure Island. She was at her age.

That would have been probably in the 50s. She said her dad was working as a Navy liaison to the agency. And he came home one day, and he had a telegram in his hand. And she goes, for some reason, he let me read it. She's telling me this story. And I well what did it say she says it was it basically said hey unidentified objects going in and out of the water and it had a latitude and longitude in it and he looked at her she goes and i'm a child i always remember this she says he looked at me and said we get these all the time and it's always in the same area

and i go of course i go, you got the telegram? She goes, of course not. He had to take it back to work. I said, you don't have to remember that latitude, longitude. She said, no. She goes, but you seem to be so credible and believable. She goes, I wanted to tell someone the story that I've never told anyone in my life.

So that's what you're starting to see is people that, you know, very credible. They're not, you know, they're not, they're not crazy. They're not making stuff up, but they're coming out and going, Hey, I've had these experiences. And I've got a lot of that from over the last two years where people just find my email and send me stuff saying, Hey, this happened to me, or I saw this. And there's some things that are explainable because I got asked to tell this. So, because we're kind of, I have a sick sense of humor at times. So like I said, I had all these qualls.

So we used to fly – they don't do it right now because it's a little bit dangerous. But we used to fly night vision goggles low altitude in Hornets. So when you put on night vision goggles, they amplify light like a lot. So you can see a campfire like 50 miles away. So we used to do it at the good spots. We're down in Lake El Centro, California. There's a range that there's some bombing ranges, but people go camping in the Superstition Mountains,

which is kind of north and west of Imperial by, I forget what it is, the Springs. It's real pristine, the desert. It'll come to me in a minute. So we would go out at night flying around on goggles, and you'd see a campfire. And you'd go, oh, UFO time. And then you get the airplane going about 600 knots, and then you pull the power back to idle so you can't hear it. And you get zinging towards the fire.

Well, you turn the lights around now because we're in restricted areas, so we can do that. And there's lights on it that you can only see if you're on night vision goggles. So the other airplanes can see us, but no one else can see us. Then you go zinging at it. And then right when you get to the campfire, you pull the airplane into the vertical. You stroke the afterburners. You let them light off. You count to three.

You pull them off, and then you just go away. Instant UFO reporting. I'm sitting out in the desert. It's all quiet. And then all of a sudden, there's a lure. there's lights in the sky and they go away and it's gone. They can't fire that. You would do that just to fuck with campers?

Yes. How rude. Yes. Yes, I did. I know I'm not the only one that did it, but like I said, we have a sixth sense of humor. Yes, I'm sure. So some things are explainable because I guarantee there were phone calls made on some of the stuff that we did.

And I guarantee you're not the only one who's ever done that. Oh, I know I'm not. Yeah, I'm not that creative, but it's just, you know, you think about it and you go, because people go, I saw this or I saw that because I've got stuff like that. And I go, yeah, I used to create stuff like that, just not tell it. Do you, are you, Jeremy, I'm sure you're aware of this, the footage from the Mexican Air Force? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very aware of that. What do you think about that?

Well, again, it's IR footage, which is really interesting. They actually got the cameras for drug runners, right? So you can see in the infrared. So it's beyond the observable eye. I myself have not detailed looked at the footage. However, FLIR experts and people that work with NSA have looked at it for me. And these are not lights in the distance. These are craft.

Very similar to what Commander Fravor talks about without plumes, without heat signatures. You know, non-traditional field propulsion systems. We don't have that. I thought they tried to – is this it right here? Is this some Mexican Air Force footage? Yeah. So they tried to say these were lights on like an oil rig out in the water that's been debombed. Yeah, they tried to say these were lights on like an oil rig out in the water

that's been debombed. Yeah, they tried to say it was a fire in an oil rig, right? No. The 2004 Comcast video of the year was the Mexican Air Force

tracking like six. So literally, right after our incident, we come back and I think we were getting ready to go to Fallon and I had Comcast and the homepage comes up

and there's this video and I go, holy cow, that looks like what we chased. And it was like six of these things and they were tracking them and the homepage comes up, and there's this video. And I go, holy cow, that looks like what we chased. And it was like six of these things, and they were tracking them in the same area too, right off the coast of Ensenada. And it's not as rare. There's now admitted an increased frequency. A Pentagon spokeswoman finally went off script.

I was tracking the scripts for the last two years of what Pentagon spokespeople say about Commander Fravor's experience. Someone went off script last week in the New York Times and she admitted there's an increased frequency of near misses because of these AAVs, anomalous aerospace vehicles. So it's pretty astounding. We're getting all these kind of revelatory moments in these little seeds that these are not ours.

We don't have this. Even Elon doesn't have this. I mean, this is a propulsion system unlike anything we have. It's amazing. It's gravity propelled. Now, that gimbal footage, when it said that there's a fleet of them, how far away are those guys where you don't see the individual objects? You only see a singular spot.

Well, the pod is, you know, when you get pretty narrow, it would be like, you know, if I put three people around you, I can look at you and not see the other people. So that's what the pod is doing. But the radar is seeing everything because it has an ESA radar in it, which is an active electronically scanned array. So instead of like the radars we had, which did the mechanical, you know, doing this, like old school, this thing is just a panel that sits in the front of the airplane. And through beam shaping, it can move and it can look all over. So we used to have what was called track while scan, so we would be able to track a target while we're still scanning. This thing has scan while – it scans while tracked.

So it literally – if it sees you, if the radar sees you, it has basically a weapons quality solution, and it can do that on multiple targets. That's the same way the SPY radar, the Aegis system works on the cruisers. It can track multiple targets and have weapons quality on all these different targets while it's still scanning a volume. So in that image, you're seeing one individual object, but there's other objects? Yes. The radar is seeing the object that the pod is looking at where they're talking. And when you hear the video, you hear the pilot say, dude, look at the SA page.

There's a whole fleet of them. So what they're seeing is the pod is hear the the pilot say dude look at the sa page there's there's a whole fleet of them so what they're seeing is the the pod is looking at the main that's the bigger object that the gimbal the thing that's rotating on the screen and there's five smaller things in front so this thing's just sitting there and then they kind of he said they turn around on this on the radar and start going the other way while the pod's looking at this guy just kind of rotating so like a mothership and smaller aircraft. Could be. Something along those lines.

Is there video of those smaller aircrafts or just the video of the one large one? No, the only thing they have is the targeting pod. I would highly doubt, even if they had the video, that they're going to release the radar video because of classification levels. Are you able to tell the story you told me about what was underwater with your other buddy because – is that okay? Yeah, yeah. So it's amazing. People come out of the woodwork when they figure out you've had this because now they don't feel alone. So I was working. I still do it, but I was doing oil and gas at the time on a contract.

And one of the guys, the story came out, and he was a Navy helicopter pilot. And he comes and he goes, can I talk to you, man? I go, what about it? He goes, dude, I got, I got to talk to you. And I said, what do you want to talk to me about? He says, dude, do you know your UFO? He said, yeah. He goes, I had a similar experience. I said, what's that? He said, he was flying CH-53s, which is a big lift, heavy lift that the Marine Corps uses and the Navy uses it for certain things. And when they go off of – for the East Coast, they do a lot of shooting off of – at the time, it was off of Puerto Rico. We had Roosevelt Roads that they ended up closing.

But he was flying out of there. And, you know, you got super clear Caribbean water. And they have these things that are called BQMs. They fly around. And then when they're all done, because they'll fly towards the ships and the ship can – sorry about that. They can track with the radar and then they also do in the like the ships or submarines shoot torpedoes they're they're called telemetry rounds so they have they gather all the data on what the torpedo is doing underwater and then they blow ballast and this thing will come to the surface and float and then they go pick them up and then they can extract all the data

out of them so they do it for both so he said the first time they're out and they're going to pick up this bqm and those things when they're he said the first time they're out and they're going to pick up this BQM and those things, when they're flying, they're done, a parachute comes out and they got to go, they hook it up. The helo drops the swimmer in the water. He goes and hooks this whole thing up and then they hoist the whole thing up and fly back. And then they extract the data. So he says he's sitting in the front, you know, in helicopters, there's, you know, CH-53, you can actually see down by your feet, you know, just like typical, like you go to Hawaii and ride because you can see when you're touching down. So you got really good visibility out of those things.

And you can stick your head out the window too because you're just kind of hanging out. He says he's going on there and they're getting this thing hooked up. And as he's looking down, you know, because they're, I don't know what, 50 feet above the water, he sees kind of this dark mass coming up from the depths. And they start to hoist the diver up and they've got the BQM. And as they hoist it up, he says, and he's looking at the thing going, what the hell is that? And then it just goes back down underwater. It's just like once they pull the kid and the BQM out of the water, this object descends back into the depths. So he thinks, well, that was pretty weird.

So he goes out. He says, not too long later, a few months later, he's out and he's picking up a torpedo. So he says they got the – they hooked the diver up on the winch and they're lowering him in. And as he's looking down, he sees this big, massive – he goes, he's out, and he's picking up a torpedo. So he says they hooked the diver up on the winch, and they're lowering him in. And as he's looking down, he sees this big, massive—he goes, it's not a submarine. He's seen submarines before. Once you see a submarine, you can't confuse it with something else. This big object kind of circularly says it's coming up from the depths. And he starts screaming through the intercom system to tell them to pull the diver up.

And the diver's like a few feet from the water. So they reverse the winch, and the diver's thinking, what the hell is going on? And he's getting pulled up, and all of a sudden he said the torpedo just got sucked down underwater, and the object just descended back down into the depths, and they never recovered the torpedo. And this happened in the late 90s, mid to late 90s i think it is i can probably get in touch with him and ask him and he told me this story and i'm like how do you report that you come in and go well where'd the torpedo go it just got sucked down it just went down you know and then you get to people that attribute it as ah something happened when it blew ballast and it

just took on water and sank and he's like it didn't sink he goes it literally looked like it got sucked down the only reason they didn't they. He goes, it literally looked like it got sucked down. The only reason they didn't, they talked to him when they did the New York Times stuff, they talked to him, but because the incident was from the 90s, they didn't want to, they wanted something, you know, newer. So they did not include it, but I know they talked to him about it. Now, what was the other footage that we were looking at? There was the first footage that Jamie pulled up that wasn't the gimbal footage. Oh, the go fast.

The go fast. is that that's uh it actually looks more like a tic tac but it's they saw it uh going across the water and they're they're just grabbing a lock so they're seeing this with their eyes and he gets the fleer to lock on it and that's when you hear the kid go oh i got it because he gets the auto track and it's just something screaming across the surface of the water so and this is in the same area? This is East Coast, yeah. This is the same time frame as the gimbal video. So the idea that these are birds or the idea that this is a radar glitch or somebody said pilot error like on a clear blue day, Commander Fravor has nerves.

I mean, that kind of thing that people have said on your show to you, that, you know, these are explanations that make sense. Who said that? I don't even want to say their names. Mick West? Yeah, sure. Mick believes everything. Like every single thing that's ever happened has a rational explanation for it.

So the probability that all the radars went off at the wrong time, Commander Fravor had nerves, all the other pilots up there with him, that this thing shot off like a gun instantly, that that was somehow perfectly coordinated that's a conspiracy that that's a fabrication probably occam's razors the events happened exactly like we're being told yeah for us it was you know and i'll go back to the beginning of the story of you know the other pilot who was brand new she had been in the squadron for four months, five months. So she's pretty junior. She was still working on her initial quality airplane.

And so she gets the – we get the real-world vector and it's like, okay, real-world vector, cool. I'm going to get to do something real, exciting. Then you see the water and you think, oh, something's sinking because it's kind of that shape of an airplane, you know, that cross type. So now it's, oh, crap, now it's search and rescue. We got to go down and see, you know, because there's people, you know, and we are sympathetic. And to the tic-tac, and as soon as the tic-tac, it's like, you know, holy shit, what is that? You know, and when you get, you know, some people get very emotional when you talk about it You know, some people get very emotional when you talk about it because for me it was like, you know, for her, when you talk to her, she has a disdain for some of the leadership that didn't tell us that these things were out there.

You know, they're here now. We're getting vectored because we were the first time the manned airplanes had been airborne when one of these things showed up. That no one even gave us a brief that, hey, we're seeing these objects out here for the last two weeks. They're just kind of – you might want to know they're out there. And they never told us. No one knew these things existed besides the radar operators. And the radar operators didn't know what they were. They just knew they were seeing blips. So there's a lot of stuff that it flew around and it came around me and it didn't do any of that stuff.

It's – the story that I gave you is just relatively benign. But it was, you know, it's an interesting experience. So these incidents that they reported were taking place before you saw that Tic Tac encounter. Yeah. They were taking place over a period of how many weeks? Two weeks. We went out at the beginning of the month for this two-week at-sea period. We pulled in for Thanksgiving, but other than that, we were out until I think December 21st is when we pulled the ship back in,

besides pulling in for the three days at Thanksgiving. So, yeah, for the two weeks prior, so this was on the 14th, and we went out at the beginning of the month. So about two weeks, they had been watching these things come down, go up, come down, go up. But it was always when we were not flying, which is really probably like the midnight time frame until early in the morning, you know, until noon the next day. And then we just happened to go. And if you think about it, you know, I laugh. You know, if there was some little green man flying around in that Tic Tac, he probably got back to the mothership and got yelled at for being seen. But, you know, like, oh, my God, you let them see you. So have you communicated with anybody that has any thoughts on what these things are doing,

or whether or not there's any consistency to the size of them, or whether or not they think they're coming out of a larger object or anything along these lines? No. You know, you can ask, well, because I was asked, you know, what do you think they were doing? You know, and I said, you can look. Well, they were observing, you know, because they're coming down and watching. Number two is they were communicating because I think, you know, in my heart, I think there

was something under the water. I don't, you know, what it was doing there. But when we went back, it was gone. This is because of when you saw the X, the cross-looking thing. Explain that again. So the disturbance seemed to be in the shape of a cross? Like I describe it as it's about the size of a 737. So just think if you submerge the 737, pointing it to the east underwater by like, you know, 10, 15 feet.

So as these waves are coming across, when they, you know, they hit that object, they're going to break on top just like you would with a submerged, like a seamount. So, and it's, it's, they're breaking and that's where the tic-tac was at. That's the only reason we saw the tic-tac. That's what drew our eyes down there is we see this whitewater when it's a perfectly clear day with no white caps. And you go, whoa, what's that? And then you see the tic-ic Tac and then we, you know, we do all the chasing the Tic Tac and we turn,

we're right there and we turn around and there's no whitewater. It's just blue as far as you can see. So at that point you go, okay, what was it doing? Because there was obviously something there that's not there now. So that's where I say, well, it's, it was observing us. It was could have been communicating with whatever was there. And then someone else looked at me and said – I was talking to Lou and he goes, what about prepping the battlefield? I go, okay.

So if you go, where are these things from? We don't know. Are they from China, Russia, someplace else? I don't know. But it's a capability that we do not possess to my knowledge. And if you ask me in 2004 because there's a lot of guys go, well, maybe it's some secret government program. I go, all right. Well, let's be honest.

One, if you have a propulsion system that made it – gave the capabilities that we observed visually, that's a huge leap for mankind, period. So you would say, yeah, think about it. It's going to be 15 years next month that we saw this. I would like to think that, okay, maybe let's just say in 2004 it was something. Somebody had this. Some government had this. I don't know. Ours, whatever.

If you come to now, you go 15 years later, you don't think that technology would have emerged because it literally would change everything we do. I mean we're happy about hybrid and electric cars and all this other stuff. But if you've got something that works like that, air travel – it would change air travel forever. No visible system of propulsion. No plumes. No, it's just a – we joke. Think of a 40-foot long tic-tac that can move at will through the air at speeds well beyond what we've ever witnessed. I mean even when you watch a rocket go off, one of Elon's or one of the NASA – whatever.

You sit there and – well, I grew up during the Apollo ages where you just just look at the thing, go up, up, up, up, up. I've seen them shot out of Vandenberg where you go, you know, I'd sit in my house in central California and you watch it go up and go, I can watch that thing for a while. This is something that just like poof, in a matter of seconds is gone. Now, are other pilots or other people that have cited these things, have they also reported something larger that's in the water near it? No. No. Not the ones I've talked to. I mean, I think, you know, you can get on History Channel.

There's all kinds of stuff on there about people talking about stuff. But, you know, here's the question is what do you believe, what do you not believe? And, you know, my biggest frustration is, you know, our incident and even the folks on the East Coast, it is what it is to us. There's no reason to embellish there's no reason to make stuff up but yet there's still groups of people that are making stuff up like someone came out on ours was talking about and he's like oh i i saw the whole the whole video is 10 minutes long and it was doing all this it's bullshit what you see is that's literally the entire video it's a minute and a half long i think it's about a minute and a half long

what people haven't seen that i saw i mean i've seen the radar tapes because i had them as my squadron um you know i've heard you know the men in black you know i just i'm for you know maybe the okay i'll give you the credit if they did but why wouldn't they show up and talk to the guys who actually witnessed it chased it and is one of the senior guys in the battle group right it's also possible that that men in black stuff was something that they used to do back in the day and that that program was no longer continued. And, you know, from, Jeremy, you would know this, the older sightings when they go back into the day,

into historical sightings, not Columbus, but, you know, in the 50s and 60s, did they have similar things that they talked about or something moved in this manner? Yeah, it's absolutely incredible, and or something moved in this manner yeah it's absolutely incredible and i want to dumb this down because that's how i had to understand it when i was talking with commander favor years before i kept his secret years before the new york times blew it up i told him it's probably going to happen it wasn't by me we were talking about it this system that we have seen for over 70 years, just documented by our military, this

is so important. This is a non-reactionary field propulsion system. Everything we know is a reactionary propulsion system. We push something out the back, it goes forward. This is not like a mag system. This is a gravitational field propulsion system. And throughout history, our military has documented them and there has been propulsion system. And throughout history, our military has documented them. And there has been ridicule. And I'll tell you exactly why. In 1952, there was a huge flyover of Washington, D.C. Jets were scrambled. All the papers covered it. It's a very famous case everybody can look up. It's an important case because at that time, a policy was started. And that policy started because it crashed our communications. The teletypes went down, the panic of the UFOs that were being seen by people

with fighter pilots trying to capture and trying to engage them. And it crashed the teletypes. So our government was like, oh, that's not happening again because Russia could use that as a scare tactic. So this policy of denial, don't look here, nothing to see, move on, UFOs are fake. That's what Project Blue Book was tasked to do specifically. The guy who ran it admitted that, that it was tasked to debunk this and demystify the UFO thing. That's J. Allen Hynek, correct? Right. I also, yeah, J. Allen Hynek. He was once asked by a friend of mine, do you have the smoking gun? I'll give you this document. It's pretty

amazing. It's an Air Force manual where they explain what they know about UFOs at that time in 1967. But here's the point. Yes, this has been going on since the beginning of recorded human history. These propulsion systems that are captured on footage, you know, that is confirmed now by the Pentagon, like Commander Fravor's experience. This technology is not ours. It was here 70 years ago. You're still about 15 years ago. We would see it now. These exact things at 20,000 miles an hour going on 70 years ago documented. Somebody has a non-reactionary fuel propulsion system. Now, are they aliens or some subsect of humans? You know, somebody has them. And they're flying through our airspace with impunity and pilots like Commander Fravor,

who, by the way, defended Los Angeles after 9-11. I mean, this is a guy we put all of our trust in. He was defending Los Angeles right after 9-11. So mean, this is a guy we put all of our trust in. He was defending Los Angeles right after 9-11. So we got people like him coming forward saying, I saw this. And you get internet warriors being like, it's a bird. It's a glitch. It's Superman. Let's not concentrate on them. What about the Columbus thing?

Did you find that? Yeah, it's just a written. It's listed as like light, 1492 light signature event that they saw light in the distance. Is the actual text available? No, there's not. Just like Wikipedia stuff. It's just one of the oldest accounts I was trying to throw out

that this is something that... Do you know of... There's a very famous painting that shows what appears to be men in crafts flying through the sky in the background of an ancient painting.

Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. I actually have a page. One of the first pages I ever put on my website is like a bunch of these because throughout history, there are these indications of ships, of craft. But you know what I'm talking about? It's like – and it's that – that's the shape of it. It's also like a plate turned on its side and then there's a person inside of it yeah yeah man it's flying through

in that same yeah that's it yeah like look look how it's it's flying but you know the thing is is that everybody can say or the one above that's pretty cool because that was a hidden thing i've studied that one where it says discovery 15th century above the her left shoulder there is an object and if you really zoom in look at the dude staring up at it as a painter my wife is a painter everything is intentional which where's the guy the guy yeah right over there it's pretty cool looking up so i think that's 15th century it said so the problem with this joe is it go to the original one the one that we just looked at jamie the one right before that yeah see get a big picture yeah that is so strange like here you got christ being crucified and then above him ufos like and is that supposed to be

aliens or is that supposed to be angels like what is that supposed to be in these things that they have it's it's real similar to what we Like, what is that supposed to be in these things that they have? It's real, similar to what we're talking about here. That's the argument of Miracle of Fatima, let's say. I mean, again, this is so speculative. We have a witness here, a pilot. But when you see something like the Miracle of Fatima, if you look at that— What is the Miracle of Fatima?

God, that's that one that was considered a real miracle by the church, and the three kids were getting messages. I'll get this all wrong, but for like months that they're going to be visited and to bring people in bigger and bigger groups gathered to where there was over 100,000 people. What year is this? 1917. 1917. 1917. So, you know, dozens of thousands, if not hundreds, but dozens for sure, see an event, a mass sighting of something that happened.

We're talking people that were religious, people that weren't religious, doctors at the time. That's not a real image. Is it, Jamie? That one was doctored a little bit so you could see they're all looking at something. But that's not real. But that's the crowd, right? The crowd is real.

Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So here's the thing. People come out. Something happened that was so intense. Some people thought it was religious, that it was a visitation, but other people saw it as technological, like something descended. Look into it. I'm just saying art pictures, like paintings we're talking about, man, you can interpret them all day. I can't hold on to that.

I can't hold on to an eyewitness with other eyewitnesses with radar systems and with video we're in a different era now we don't have to paint it man we get to see it it's fascinating man it is fascinating but it's way more fascinating when someone like you talks about it versus some fucking random kook you know that's that's what makes me incredibly interested is the just your credibility and the fact that this is not you don't have a history of seeing wacky shit that other people don't see no just this once and but it's on video and that there's other ones as well it's really strange i've seen people try to explain it away and what i don't like about when they explain it away or attempt to explain it away is that

they're trying really hard they're not going who knows what this fucking thing is they're not looking at it like cleanly they're looking at it like a quote-unquote skeptic i don't like the idea of being a skeptic not that i don't think you should be skeptical of certain things i certainly think you should be but there's a lot of people that brand themselves as skeptics. And I think it's a lazy way to look at things. I really do. Because I think you're just looking for the holes in things without looking at it objectively. If you wanted to be a scientist, if you wanted to be someone who is a fan of science, then you have to look at it as a thing. Look at this information and let's study this without any bias any preconceived notions i don't think they're doing that they're looking at it they're trying to find

a way where they can justify that it's fake and they're they're just doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to make it fake that video that you show where that thing slips off to the left and takes off at incredible rates of speed that alone should freak people the fuck out yeah well i think because people confuse all the time like we took the video no it was another crew that took the video we we watched it for five minutes with our eyeballs and there was four of us and we all have the same story we all saw the same stuff we all came back and looked at each other and scratched our head and said, WTF? You know, I mean, serious? What was that? You know, and then what do you do?

You move on. We never saw it again. I imagine they probably saw him on radar after that. They're probably seeing him on radar all the time. They just don't bring it to the attention of the general public. Oh, yeah, because if you don't, you know, for a ship when they see something, you know, what is that? Well, you don't have any way to go out there and look at it. Like when you're talking about how they were informing you that they were seeing these things previous to your mission.

When you're doing this exercise and they let you know that they're seeing these things. Did you say, hey, how frequent is this? Is this something that happens all the time? I didn't get into that. Ours was more of the moment of, you know, when he's telling us, hey, for the last two weeks we've been tracking these things. Right. And we don't know what they are. But you don't know whether or not it was just those two weeks or maybe it was a year ago. There was other similar situations or?

There's other situations that have happened out there. But I would say you know for this i i don't even know one you got to take it serious we have a tendency if we don't know what it is if we just ignore it it'll go away you know and i joke you know there was an incident years it's probably not too far off the same time frame but i think it was like the constellation was doing her workups before she got decommissioned. And an Oscar class, a Soviet Oscar class submarine surfaced behind her. Right? And now it's like, you know, go to battle stations, World War III.

How did this foreign submarine get in our area and has been monitoring our workups? That's a big deal. I said, but now we go out and we have these things that are coming at will. And there's nothing we can do about it. We don't know what they are. We have confirmed sighting by two air crew, four of us, two planes that said, look, this is not an airplane. This is not a weather balloon. This is not a blip. It has performance well beyond. And the airplanes that we were flying at the time were literally brand new Super Hornets right out of the Boeing factory.

I mean these were brand-new first Block II series that came out. And you go, why wasn't something done? It's like, ah, we don't know what it is. I think it's good now, the moves that have happened over the last two years since the original article came out that now there's a new reporting for the pilots. The Navy has acknowledged, hey, these things, we don't know what they were. They're starting to take it serious because I know there are other events that are not out, recent events where people have been called in to go, hey, I've seen this thing. So the investigation process is still going on.

The military doesn't stop. Even if you take funding away, we don't stop. And the military doesn't stop. Even if you take funding away, we don't stop. You know, we don't stop until we're told to stop. So, you know, what's, what's going on? I, you know, you go, well, AATIP ended, you know, they spent four and a half million dollars a year on it. I think it was four and it was 22 million over the five years. So you go, what are they doing since then? Well, I mean, I'm pretty sure there's still people looking at this and there are still people that are taking this serious. I will tell you that – I won't get into specifics, but there are people inside the United States government that are taking this serious. And I've been down to D.C. twice to talk to folks behind closed doors to go – because they want to hear the story.

And I've got a lot of you got to be joking. I mean this seriously happened. And I'm like, yeah, it did happen. And it is real. What are you doing about it? So what kind of people are you talking to? High-level government officials is what I'll say. And most of that is because that conversation is between me and them,

and I don't want people speculating, but you can say high-level government officials I have talked to. want people speculating but you can say um high level government officials i have talked to well that was always the the speculation about like uh what would someone do if they became president well the first thing i would do is i would tell everybody about the ufos i would ask immediately what's going on and i always thought about i said how many people actually know what's going on and how much of the information i mean it's not like if they're dealing with something like this, like your experience, it seems like what you described is what is known. So it's this anomalous event where this thing defies our current understanding of technology and then it's gone yes and so what do you have you don't have anything else other than that like what other information does anybody

have well i would say i would say this because i've talked to bob we were we did a bob lazar yeah we did an event together and i'll leave it to everyone to if it's up to you to believe bob i'll say this bob's a normal guy. Bob's not crazy. He's not crazy at all. Not at all. That was the weirdest thing about talking to him. But when you look at it and go, because I had asked Bob, I said, what he describes in the technology when he talks about his story, I said, well, do you honestly think we could reverse engineer it? I said, how long do you think it would take us?

And his response to me was another hundred years he goes dave it was so far beyond he goes the stuff that he says he worked on he's like you know you he was on your podcast because i watched it you know hey there was no wires and because i had asked him when he said you first described the ship that he got to see he said i used to say you know they built it and then it was like wax and you'd heat it up he goes now i would say it was built with 3d printing because now with 3d printing we can build things literally from the ground up and it's basically built as one not panels no rivets it's just made right and um so when you talk about that and you go well it's still another hundred years so you go well what if you had the technology we still if if if

what bob says is correct we still don't understand it. And how fast would it take us to understand that? I mean if it's driven by something that we don't even have on earth, which is when he talks about that element, we can't create it. We can create it for a microsecond and then it decays. Element 115. Yeah. So I think we're we're still a long ways off you know i'll argue with the people that go you know are we really

alone i was telling jeremy we used to go out on on goggles you know out in the middle pacific there's no light pollution goggles night vision goggles so we can see well you go out at night i'd be on like a tanker hop or something just hanging out not doing anything driving around in circles with the autopilot on. You just turn all the lights down in the cockpit so you have no light pollution and just roll your head back and look up. There's billions and billions and billions of stars out there. And, you know, I always look up because I'm like, you know, are we alone? And I go – I look up and go, well, if we're the only ones around and that's – and I'm around and everything I'm looking at, it's a pretty sad place.

It's a pretty lonely universe. I asked my astrophysics prof that once. I said, do you believe in extraterrestrial life? And she's like, of course not. And I said, well, there's billions and billions of planets. You think we're it? I mean, just the probability of it is you'd go, oh, there's probably something else out there. And I'm not crazy.

I'm just opening up the possibility that we are not the only planet that has life on it i think people don't like to seem silly they don't like to be foolish and i think when people start talking about anything that's not proven or anything that's connected to a bunch of loony people that are making up stories which ufos certainly are yes ufos are connected to so many people that have made up so many stories what was that gentleman's name from what you would know that guy who's from another country billy something or another billy meyer billy meyer yeah seems 100 full of shit yeah yeah he's proven to have done tons of hoaxes with this but here's the deal sometimes i think people have a real experience and they're always like chasing that dragon and they get UFO disease and the brain goes fucking berserk, right?

I know that there are people that have had profound experiences and then they can't ever replicate them. So then they just start going crazy. And I don't blame him for it. But you got someone like Commander Fravor. When he saw that AAV, anomalous aerospace vehicle, his reaction was, I want to fly it. That's a pretty cool reaction., I want to fly it. That's a pretty cool reaction. I'd like to fly it.

Yeah, imagine flying that thing. That's what I told my buddy. He was my ex-o at the time, Del. I got back after all this happened. He looks at me, and we're just standing right here. And he goes, hey, dude. I go, what? He goes, what do you think it is?

I go, I have no idea. But it was pretty freaking impressive, and I'd like to fly it. Of course. And he goes, yeah. I go, I mean, it was. It was, you know, it's's just like any pot you always want to fly the coolest thing of course yeah of course you race car driver you want to drive the fastest car that's it now you look and go well that's something we don't have yeah this idea that you know maybe we're not alone that some of these other stars have planets that are maybe technologically advanced so the next thing people say and you know new eras are going to say, well, they're not coming

here because the distance is so vast. Hold the fuck up. From the very beginning, when Bob Lazar came forward and talked about field propulsion, gravity propulsion, distance becomes completely irrelevant. So if we believe, and the radars are right, and Commander Fravor saw this thing move in like a ping pong ball in a glass of water, it's gravity propelled. That's why you can make those maneuvers without exploding, okay?

Then distance becomes completely irrelevant for travel. You're literally warping time and space. You're falling into place. Well, it's like the idea of showing someone a video on your phone long before video was ever invented. People will be like, what are you talking about?

Like before photography was invented, which is shockingly recent, right? You ought to draw pictures of things you saw, just like those people that drew or painted those images of those men and whatever those things were with Christ in the background. The idea that we could understand what some insanely impressive technology from a planet that is nowhere near us could manifest. It's nuts. Bob Lazar talks a lot about this.

Remember, he's a young guy, right, in 1989. He gets shown something. And all of a sudden, he's trying to interpret it through 1989 technology. So he said it looks like it was injection molded because that's what he had and then right i sent him this thing about nanotechnology and you know working towards an atomic printer he's like dude that makes a lot more sense so he has to view it through where he saw it in 1989 however i will say this it is my knowledge that we understand exactly how these craft work our one limiting factor is our material science. We can't replicate, not the fuel source itself is another- When you say we know exactly how they work.

Yeah, it doesn't break our laws of physics, this concept of amplification of gravity, this concept of gravity propulsion. We understand how things can move from point A to point B almost instantaneously. Our physics doesn't disallow it, but our material science and the fuel to create that machine that we have machines from other places. So we have- What do you mean? Well, Bob Lazar, whether you believe him or not, there was a program. I have other witnesses that I will be bringing forward about S4, where he worked. We have-

You have other witnesses that worked with alongside people that corroborate bob's account in that they saw him get on and off the red and whites the janet flights that come on somebody that went to papoose lake and was stopped by by non-military guards at that time people that were we're aware of, Site 4 and ET exploitation projects. One is an SR-71 pilot that I've been talking with for a couple of years. These people are coming forward now, and it's like, I'm sick and tired of doing it. These little nitpicky things about Bob. Okay, there was a program.

There was a back engineering program. They've admitted there are materials. So this is like the metamaterials you heard about in the New York Times, all that. We have materials associated with UFOs that are interesting. What is that? What are you talking about? So this is something that was launched in the first New York Times article, I believe, in December of 2017, that there is studies being done right now on materials associated with UFOs. So actual metals that have come off of you could

say crashes or who is that that explained that there was something they were with eric weinstein that was explaining that there was someone who reportedly has something along those lines jacques valet has 17 samples 17 samples how does one guy get 17 samples well he's jacques fucking valet right so he's the guy first ever for the united states military created a computer program for you know for the study of ufos for project blue books he's an old school guy they modeled him after in the close encounters movie it's modeled after jacques valet the french guy so he's kind of like been involved with this he's had more access to government databases than any of us. He went around, collected samples from known crashes

or when things will come off. And what's the conclusion? Well, they're studying them right now. There was just something on Fox about it. They're studying some of these materials. And what they will find, because I actually, the ones they're talking about, I actually took to New Mexico and had five scientists study it

about five years ago. I got my hands on it, got to study it, the famous parts they're talking about now. It's layered. And the way it's layered is what they're trying to see if it's anomalous elementally or the way that the elements are bound together and also the atomic level of layering is what's interesting. We'll find out if it's interesting.

Explain what you're talking about. What is this thing that you saw? Okay, well, there are a lot of different samples, but when you get a sample of something and you can see it. How big are these samples? The ones that I looked at, they ranged from about this size. Audio. They ranged from the size of an orange to the size of a quarter.

These are materials, right? The materials from a crash? So that's allegedly, or there's a known crash. This is in the public domain rather than government control. So what I was looking at or having the scientists look at is isotopically and elementally, what are the elements that are in this? Are they engineered?

And what's the conclusion? Well, I'm going to leave it to the people that are in this? Are they engineered? And what's the conclusion? Well, I'm not, I'm going to leave it to the people that are doing it now who have much better machines than I had access to. Do you know any cliff notes? Yeah, they,

from what I understand, there's atomic layering. There are levels of, like we do with graphene. We lay down these layers that are basically oriented at a certain degree. That's how you get a superconductor

or something like that. If you take a piece of graphene and it's highly machined, so it doesn't deviate from that atomic layering, you can push it right through ice like a hot knife through butter. It's the weirdest feeling in the world because you just take this piece of what feels like graphene and it goes right through butter because it's a superconductor and the heat from your hand melts the ice. So that is a metamaterial. It doesn't occur naturally. Humans created it. And it has special properties

because of the way it's atomically layered. So if these materials are from somewhere else, then we suspect that they're going to be highly machined, that they're going to be created for special use. So my whole point is our material science has not caught up with the physics that we understand for these field propulsion systems. I'm just telling you, believe me or not, but you'll hear more about it, that our material science in 1989 and today

is our limiting factor. And as our material science gets better as humans, we know how these things work. Now the fuel source, that's a whole nother conversation. But as far as creating these machines, that's what we're trying to do. That's why there is secrecy. We're trying to exploit the technology because whoever exploits it first wins. It's a game changer. We don't want Russia to do it. We don't want China to do it. If we had a non-reactionary propulsion system, the world would look different instantaneously. What is your perspective after the incident versus before the incident? Like how much did it change the way you view the world and our place in the world?

For me, I mean, I always, I never believed that we were alone. It's just me. I just look up and go, there's way too many stars up there for us to be in the middle of in life. After it, it makes it a little more clear to go, one, my questions are, where'd it come from? That's the biggest one. Where'd it come from? What was it doing? And then I've asked, why me?

I mean, why did I happen to be? cause you can say wrong place, wrong time. Right. Right place. Or right place, right time. Um, for me it was, I think there's more out there and if, if I could get word out to anyone, it's like, you know, especially the, the debunkers of one, quit trying to debunk it. Cause it is what it is. It wasn't a, there wasn't a system glitch.

This I mean, this was a real incident that happened. And number two is let's open our aperture a little bit and start thinking outside of the box. You know, if you go, you know, you look at it and go, hey, it's this nonreactive propulsion. Well, it's because when we came up with propulsion, we we you know, the people long before us came up with a reactionary propulsion system. And that became our standard. The people long before us came up with a reactionary propulsion system, and that became our standard. Had we done something different or we developed non-reaction, we might look at something like a gasoline engine and go, holy cow, how does that thing work? We wouldn't have that idea. So I think there's – if you look at it and go, people thought Einstein was kind of nuts, and we're still proving his theories today.

And what we're learning is that he was right. And he was right. There was a time when the earth was flat, except for some people in California, the earth isn't flat. It's round. It's not just people in California. They're all over the place.

There's not an ice wall. So, so when you look at that and you go, you know, a lot of the stuff that we thought was true, isn't true. It's totally been changed. So for me, i just say i think

let's get outside of the box and go if we can develop a technology that would and i don't look at it from a military standpoint because it would be a game changer from military standpoint technology like that would be a game changer for mankind completely i mean it would literally everything that we do you know and we don't know exactly you know you you could you know do you want that system in a car you know people have trouble driving in two dimensions let alone three right you know they we you know it's kind of like your joke last night i mean i mean you can't even handle the vaping thing let alone driving a car that goes up down works in three dimensions well that was what they originally wanted helicopters

to be they wanted to be flying cars. Yeah. You get out on the road, you see how people drive. And I always laugh because people think, well, we're three-dimensional. Like we know that this table is not the floor, but really humans are two-dimensional people. And you learn that, especially when we would fight. If you can really work in the third dimension, which is up, and you go, well, we are three-dimensional. I go, no, if you look at like a tall building is 1,700 feet high, the big ones.

And you go, no, for an F-18 to do a split S, which is go from up here and just do a vertical 180-degree turn, so you're going this way and you go down here, it's like 2,500 feet. And that's tight. That's a tight turn for a jet. Unless you're running like vectored thrust stuff. But everything has a cost. So if you do some big hi-yaka, you bleed off energy. There's a cost associated with that.

That to a pilot, that's three dimensions. To most people on earth, you go, you know, I look at a hill and go, I don't want to walk up that thing. Right. You know, and in an airplane, it's a totally different thing. It's a totally different thing. So if we just open up that expanse for what we're trying to do for technology and go, is there another way? Because we still build suckers and blowers, which is a jet engine. We just refine the internals, the turbines, to get them to be more efficient. Where I go, why don't you just put your efforts someplace else? Like I was talking to – there's a whole realm of physics that really doesn't get explained.

And it's – I was talking to Steve Justice about it. It's more into the magnetics type side that we don't spend a lot of time on. And I know what he said when he was working at Skunk Works. He did – it's called – I read internal research and development money that he would fund to try and look at some of these other technologies for propulsion. that he would fund to try and look at some of these other technologies for propulsion. And, you know, he's now since retired, but really impressive to talk to him at the level that you can, which is, you know, for us would be an unclassified level. But, you know, the stuff that goes on behind closed doors, there's reasons for it, you know,

because if a technology like that got out where someone could rapidly reproduce it after all you've done, you know, or they got it first, you think of the atomic bomb. Germans almost had it. We got it. Russians were working on it. We got it first. Changed the world. Literally changed the world when we detonated the first one and you go, I'm not going to get into the politics behind it.

But now we had it and now it was the race everyone else because they had to get on equal par because it's a destabilizing thing. And now if you develop a technology like this and you keep it to yourself, you've got something that no one else has and it's a huge leap. I mean it's a quantum leap. Do you share it? Because it's a mankind thing or do you keep it for yourself? and that's, right now it's not for me to decide. I'm just Dave. Well, it's fascinating that some other method of propulsion could have been established in some other place

and that we're experiencing it or that you've experienced it and some other folks have experienced it in action. it and some other folks have experienced it in action and i just think for us as people as human beings in 2019 it's really easy to think that what we have now is so amazing and that what we have now is the pinnacle of discovery and then what we have now is uh you know the with our electricity and with our led screens and that we are experiencing like the height of technology when if you're some creature from some other planet that is got easy access to element 115 and some gravity propulsion system you're looking at us like we're digging holes in the side of a mountain to protect ourselves from the rain. We're cave people.

Yes. Yeah. Well, we do that here on Earth. Yeah. I mean, you look at like a first world, you know, like the United States or, you know, the developed nations. And then you go to Simi's other and go, you know, people are still getting their water out of a hole in the ground with a bucket. Right. Or people in the rainforest are living these indigenous lifestyles. Yeah.

So, you know, take them something. I mean, take one of these flat screens down to one of these tribes that no one's ever seen and go, hey, look, and start showing them pictures of themselves that you're shooting real time or video that's feeding directly into it. They'll freak out. They'll think it's magic. Would you capture my soul? Right.

So it's where are we at and what are we going to do and what can we do? Did it change the way you look at life? I mean, even though you knew that or you had this feeling that we were not alone just from at and what are we going to do and what can we do did it change the way you look at life i mean even though you knew that or you had this feeling that we were not alone just from looking at the stars and but when you actually see the thing like how i mean i would imagine that that has got to really shift your perspective i don't know if it shifted my perspective but it was more of a it's a validation a confirmation to go you go yeah you know i've always like yeah there's a lot of stars and then you see something like this and go well

maybe we're not because that that pushes you to the next point to go you know you know one lands in my front yard then i'll be 100 sure that we are not alone because it's sitting in my front yard but i mean i got within a half mile of this thing, which is, people go, a half mile is pretty far away. Not when you're flying an airplane, a half mile is like really tight. When they bring you in to have these conversations with high-level government officials, how long are these conversations? So I went to the, I've been down,

I've talked to three different groups of people. This is post the New York Times article? So the New York Times article comes out in 2017. Yes. different groups of people this is post the new york times article so the new york time article comes out in 2017 yes and then our our government the other pilot that was involved had been to dc multiple times this is how kind of i got in touch with lou she had called me and said hey i need to talk to you so i called her and i said what's going on she says hey have you been has anyone called you about the Tic Tac? And I said, no.

She goes, I've been to the Pentagon like a half dozen times. And they'll take me in anywhere from Starbucks to inside of a vault. And she goes, and they'll talk to me about the story and then they'll show me a picture. Something goes to look like this. And then she gets pretty frustrated and goes, we call it the Tic Tac because it looked like a Tic Tac. What part don't you get? I mean, go get a thing of Tic-tacs and look at it. When they're saying, did it look like this, are they showing actual crafts that they have?

No, not pictures that they have, but like a video from someone else. Like they'd show the gimbal video. Hey, it looked like this. And it was no. So that's when I told her, I said, well, just tell this guy that you're talking to, just give my name and number. I go, I'll talk to him. It's not a big deal to me. And that started. So when we, I got asked, you know, multiple times to go down and talk to people. One of them was supposed to be 20 minutes. And these, you know,

these are important people. Getting 20 minutes of some of these folks' time is like, that's a huge deal. So we went in thinking, okay, we're going to do the thing in 20 minutes. And then we're in, and an hour and a half later we came out i mean that's the interest of you know and there were some you know you get the group you know the folks that come in and out but there's a few um that just sat there and were enamored by what we were saying like you're you're joking we're like no this is this is all real i mean these are these are pretty senior officials that are taking the time out of their day to take this serious to go, you know, maybe we do need to put a little emphasis on this. I mean, literally, if something can just show up at will and do whatever it wants, I'd probably at least pay attention.

Yeah, pay attention. But what could be done? I mean, what could they do? If you put yourself in a position of one of these high-level government officials, what do you do? Just spend more money on looking at them? If you look at money, though, I mean I know when the article came out and they talked about the AATIP program that Harry Reid got funded $22 million over five years. So it's $4.4 million a year. And you go – everyone is freaking out.

Oh, it's $22 million. No, it wasn't $22 million a year. It was $4.4 million. That's not even in the rounding error for the United States. We just got approved what? It was $750 billion for a defense budget, $750 billion. If you took $100 million out of that, it's not even going to put a dent. And I go, why can't you – if you're only spending $4.4 million a year and you can actually get some good work done because you don't need a huge team.

You don't need a huge team because you figure if you look at – I think – what's the number? Like 10, 15 percent of all these UFOs, like if you look at Project Blue Book, really remained unexplained. And you go, OK, so you can weed out – you can read out me flying over someone in a campfire and lighting my afterburners. So you can go, no, that was Dave being Dave. So you can weed that stuff out. Now you go, now I'm really kind of concentrating the funds. The most important thing, and I talked to the folks when we were talking, because we talked about funding. And I said, let me leave you with this. And I had got some pretty good stuff.

I was talking to Chris Mellon, who's a former undersecretary and understands how the government works. It was where he gave me some really good feedback. And I said, I talked to him. I said, look, I'm all for you guys funding a program. But what you need to do is fund a program that there's going to be oversight over. When I say oversight, I mean because what happens is you go, here's money, but we're going to distribute it in the government. So we're going to distribute it to these three different agencies across the United States government. I don't just call them agency A, B, and C.

So you give it to them, and I'll go back to like the 9-11 stuff where we really had the answer, but all the agencies weren't talking to each other to put all the pieces together and that's my fear that you go hey we're going to take a hundred million dollars of taxpayer money we're going to fund a program to actually seriously investigate this stuff and look at the technology but there are three different entities working on their own and not talking to each other so there's got to be a joint collaboration to we go we're going to do it but you know joe's going to be in charge and you guys are all going to do it, but Joe's going to be in charge, and you guys are all going to play nice in the sandbox together because we want to get our money's worth because people will raise the fraud, waste, and abuse flag that we're wasting money on something stupid. Now, the gimbal video shows a different kind of thing. Yes. How many different kinds of things are you aware of? Well, those are ours, too.

If you look at the GoFast, it kind of looks like a Tic Tac. So you could say those two are the same. I think there's other stuff out there. And sometimes it's not that the – you got to look at where do you obtain the video. It's just like intelligence. And I'll use – because I know you got that picture of Pablo out there. And there was the guy, Tom Cruise made the movie about him. What's his name? Louisiana dude who was flying the drugs for Pablo in and out.

Barry Seal. Barry Seal, you know, Hey, it was all great until Reagan posted that picture that they had the cameras inside the cargo plane. And then Pablo puts it together. The only place that picture came from is Barry Seal's airplane, you know, and then now Barry Seals is a dead man. So you got to watch when you release because you go, hey, we got this video, but it was taken someplace we probably weren't supposed to be. Or how did they get that video? Like, I'll look. The video of the Tic Tac video, that thing first came out. It's kind of funny.

The guy that was in my backseat had sent me an email, and this is about probably 2008. So I was retired. And he sent me this video. He said, Skippers, does this look familiar? And it was on strangeland.com, but not suitable for work. I'll just say that. But I look, and then next thing you know, it's on YouTube. So when I would tell this story to my friends, I would go, I'd send them a link to the YouTube video. And this is years before the New York Times article. And then when they before the New York Times article. And then when they did the unofficial official report, the video was taken down off of YouTube. And it kind of puzzled me like, why did you take the video down? And I told the guys when they did the unofficial official report.

I said, well, you really need to look at how did this thing come off of a classified drive system on an aircraft carrier and end up on Strangeland.com and YouTube? Because at the time, the videos were classified secret. And that's not because it was a UFO. It's the AT FLIR video. They did not want that released. So you'd see it on CNN. They blocked out all the performance stuff, what the airplane was actually doing. In this case, the one you see, it's 250 knots with the autopilot on,

so it's not that big of a deal. Jeremy, how many different types of vehicles are you aware of that have been reported? Credible reports for decades, hundreds of different shapes. Even Lazar himself said he saw nine different styles all working off the same propulsion system. The tic-tac-shaped vehicle, that goes back in history. Some people say cigar-shaped. Big ships, small ships, they're all different kinds. I think say cigar-shaped, big ships, small ships. They're all different kinds.

I think it's important to state, though, there are other government-funded UFO programs. It's a misnomer, actually, that AATIP was the recipient of the $22 million. It was actually Harry Reid who created a program called OSAP. OSAP was the sole beneficiary of that $22 million. The New York Times got it wrong. OSAP was the sole beneficiary of that 22 million. New York Times got it wrong. And then what happened is AATIP was a different funded program to study military encounters with UFOs.

OSAP was created because of Skinwalker Ranch, a government program to study UFOs and associated phenomenon. AATIP and OSAP communicated and shared information, but they were independently funded. So the $22 million was for OSAP, and then AATIP had its own sources, and then they did collaborate two UFO programs. There are more that I think we're going to learn about. So the different shapes that Bob Lazar saw, there was nine different shapes that he saw inside the hangars. Only one up close, yeah.

And none of them were like the tic-tac. Not specifically. However, that's not an uncommon. If you go back in history of like military sightings of craft going maybe over 20,000 miles an hour, the tic-tac is a shape. They have triangles. They have ones that look like rectangles. The thing that is common with all of them is the non-reactionary propulsion system.

I think even Commander Fravor said the thing noticed him was words he first said to me and kind of went towards him with its nose. But it could move in any direction, right? I mean it could just move at will however it wanted. Yeah, it was – when we first saw it, it was just basically – it never turned. It was just going left, right, kind of doing this. Shape probably doesn't matter. And then it became aware because it turned and it actually mirrored what I was doing. When I was coming down, it came up.

So it was obviously new we were there. And I don't know if it was picking up energy coming off the airplane or what. I do know that when they tried to lock it, it actively jammed a radar. It made it pretty much useless. And Chad was pretty good about kicking it over and grabbing that video. So it's pretty wild it's a big deal to actively jam a radar of ours you know yeah it's um you know whenever someone tells you an awesome story it's great to hear but god i wish i saw it myself you know yeah but you got a? It's like this thing. Yeah. You're telling me and I'm like, wow.

I'm listening. I'm trying to imagine. I'm putting it in my head. I'm visualizing it. But damn, I wish I could see it. Yeah, I said this to a guy. He's pretty prominent. I don't say who it was or what his position was.

He's pretty prominent in the UFO community. I'm not really a UFO guy. And he starts quoting, like Jeremy, can he quote events? Oh so this was this this event that event that event he keeps looking me goes well do you know about this event i go nope and he goes what about this event i go nope he gives like three of them and i look at him and he goes well you're not a ufo guy i go no but i chase one have you and he goes no go, I'm an expert. You're an actual. He kind of got deflated a little bit.

He, cause he looked at me like you suck. Well, it's like people that are into baseball stats, but they've never played. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

you gotta get, you gotta get your hands dirty. Get out in the field. Yeah. I'm with you, Joe. Like I wish I had seen it. I've been so curious about the propulsion system since Lazar. And I wish I could see something too. Oh my God. Yeah. I've been so curious about the propulsion system since Lazar. I wish I could see something, too.

Oh, my God. Yeah. I would give so much. I'd almost think about running for president just to win, just so I could get in and find out about UFOs. Everybody's tried. And then go, I quit, bitch. Everybody tried, though, man. Clinton tried.

He tried to get. Did he? Oh, big time. That was his. He came in. He said, first thing, Webster Hubble, he said, I want to know two things. Who killed JFK?

And I want to know all about UFOs. And he was denied access. And he later said, it's not the first time I've been lied to or denied information after asking for it. Bill Clinton said that. Additionally, Jimmy Carter, he said before he was president, I'm going to find out. Well, Jimmy Carter supposedly saw UFO. He did.

He said, I'm going to find out. I'm going to tell you. Never talked about it again afterwards, after he became president. Wonder what his briefing looked like. So many presidents have tried because they're like us, man. They're curious. However, this information, from my understanding, which is an informed understanding, is so compartmentalized. Yeah.

That makes sense. But listen, is there anything else? Just one thing. I want to make sure to brief you on Storm because I still blame you for it a little bit. Can I do that? It's not my idea. No, no. It's not my idea.

Can I just give you a quick break now? Okay, so check this out. I made a movie, Bob Lazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers. Joe blows it up. I go on a show with Bob Lazar, which was awesome. Thanks for letting Bob tell everybody what happened. My pleasure. And then the world lit on fire.

Now, from a sociological pop culture standpoint, what happened on that day is huge, and I don't want it to be missed on anybody. So a kid watches your podcast, watches the movie, puts up this Facebook page, Storm Air 51. Oh, my God, that's a big problem, right? So I ended up talking to the kid and all this and helping, trying to help him navigate. Kid went left. He should have gone straight. Anyway, vent went down.

Rachel, Nevada, where area 51 is where the access points go up. We all went out there, right? But really, Rachel, nobody wanted people to come. It's a town of 52 people, one business. The residents, I live in Pioneertown, California. It's a town of 52 people, one business. The residents, I live in Pioneertown, California, it's tiny. You don't want your whole town taken over by potentially dangerous millions of people that are signing up for this on Facebook, right? So it's this huge phenomenon that happened because of going on. What happened? So here's what actually happened, because the

media has completely lied to you. They said 150 people showed up. Yeah, it's a total fabrication. I have the footage to prove it. We had an event in, I participated in an event in Heiko, Nevada, which is safely 50 miles away from Rachel where they didn't want us. And on the fly, 3,000 plus,

to me, it's a huge win. 3,000 plus people, even though they were scared to come because they were told to be scared to come out there, that it's going to be a riot. And they peacefully assembled and enjoyed this thing. I had... But what happened?

There's nothing. They just got together. 3,000 people. Yeah, but everybody came with the idea that they're curious about this. It engaged a whole new audience of people. We had Dave Foley talked. We had Paul Oakenfold, some famous – People talked? Do you have a microphone set up? Yeah, we had – I set it up. I brought in speakers. I brought in speakers.

Dave, did you avoid this? Yeah, I'm not – I'm a military guy. I'm not storming a government. That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Nobody was following you. Let's go – let's all jump the White House fence. I'm like, are you wacky? That's the dumbest idea on the planet. Yeah, I didn't understand the benefit of getting all those people together. No, no.

People were going. And so my point was, well, let's at least bring people who can talk about it and have a civilized, fun time and see what people want to do. So my point is, it's amazing anybody came out to begin with and nobody went crazy. So what is the 150 people that were reported where they'd be at the gate itself to go see so that's probably would have happened if someone like you didn't come along and organize something else yeah i didn't organize it but i definitely advocated for safety and and it worked and and it was a success so they just got together and talked 3 000 people got together and well it was spread out all throughout like people

they didn't rachel the community didn't want people there was an event there, though, in Heiko where I was was the event with the stage and the fun stuff we all did. George Knapp was there as well. How did you promote this? Well, they did the event. They promoted it because people were already coming. Did you promote it on social media? Oh, sure. I said, if you're going to go somewhere, that's where I'm going to be and it's

going to be safe and sane. My point is this. You have so many people that are curious now. And don't underestimate what happened when someone watched your podcast and that happened. Boom, you've got all these new people who are interested in it. And I think that's important because this UFO phenomenon is real. You've got fighter pilots that engage them. It represents a non-reactionary propulsion system. And that's a physics that would change the world. So the more people that come together and say, we're interested, the louder the voice we got. I think it's cool, and I had some alien Budweiser.

It's great. Well, I don't know if there's really any benefit to people physically getting together, but I do think that there's a lot of benefit. I'm glad you had a good time. But I do think there's a lot of benefit to this discussion, and I really think there's a lot of benefit to hearing the stories from people like you. Because that's the only thing that matters to me. It's like I need to know the person who's telling me the story isn't full of shit. So when I get it from someone like you, I really, really appreciate it. So that's it.

Thanks for being here. Thanks for telling your story. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being you. Thank you, Jeremy, for setting this up and thanks for your documentary on Bob Bazaar,

which really like fucking turned me around. Thanks, man. That was the one. All right, that's it. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Woo!