The Joe Rogan Experience - #1391 - Tulsi Gabbard & Jocko Willink

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

Tulsi Gabbard is a 2020 Presidential Candidate of the Democratic Party and is currently serving as the U.S. Representative for Hawaii’s 2nd congressional district since 2013. https://www.tulsi2020.com/  Jocko Willink is a decorated retired Navy SEAL officer, author of the book "Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win", and co-founder of Echelon Front, where he is a leadership instructor, speaker, and executive coach. His new book "Leadership Strategies and Tactics" will be available in January 2020.

All right, here we go. How did this get started? How did we decide to do this? I was trying to think about that, because it's something you and I started interacting on. It was somebody on Twitter. Somebody, I don't know exactly how it started, but I saw you replied to a tweet from somebody saying, hey, great idea, why doesn't Jocko and Tulsi go on the Rogan show?

And he's like, yeah. Cool. Yeah, you're like i'm in yep i'm in but jaco he'll say that to anything yeah you want to go to the moon i'm in i believe that roger but it escalated quickly from there because i didn't know how to get a hold of you yeah and then next thing i know you're texting me with jaco like yeah so are you serious? Are we doing this or what? Well it just seemed like Such a good idea I agree

It's like Whoever it was Salute Yes To whoever you are out there Thank you Good job Just seemed like a wise thing

To get together Because both of you are veterans And both of you I'm sure Have things you agree on And disagree on But you're in a really Unique position here

You know And since you've been On the podcast A lot of things have happened Big The big one is agree on and disagree on but you're you're in a really unique position here you know and and since you've been on the podcast a lot of things have happened big the big one is when you rightly called out kamala harris on her her past and what she's done and and then it seemed like everybody's attacking you it's like that opened up the floodgates and then there's all these hit pieces on and as me as a an observer watching from the outside i was like wow opened up the floodgates and then there was all these hit pieces on it. And me as an observer watching from the outside, I was like, wow, look at the machine work. Look at the attack dogs go. Like, look at this. It's very transparent.

Ah. So if you're paying attention. If you're paying attention. The thing is, if you're on the outside and you watch it all happen, then you go, oh, I see what's going on. But if you just happen upon one of those articles yeah you go oh she's an asad supporter oh she's a terrible person oh she's a this and a that and it was amazing it was amazing to watch like i don't i've never met anybody like like you that's run for president like i knew you when people didn't know you that well and then all of a sudden people know you way more and now you're

kind of a household name so to watch this process and to watch all the machinery sort of move in your direction and it's very interesting yeah what's it been like i mean that that literally is is our challenge here is is we are up against the most powerful overall political machine um when you when you look at this this at this machine that's revved up their engines to try to, you know, define me as something that casts suspicion or doubts or whatever in people's minds, you know, pushing information that isn't true, or all of these different things. And I think there's a few reasons for it. Our challenge is like, yeah, we are battling the political establishment in Washington. And it's because I'm telling the truth. people. And they are outspending us by many, many multiples, where we need help to challenge their narrative with the truth, telling me, hey, this is who I am. This is why I'm running for president. This is the experience and the background that I bring to this job. We've got to be able to bypass that mainstream corporate media and just go directly to voters. And what is the experience of being attacked feel like?

God, I feel like I'm used to it. So it's, I mean, it's just like, Um, God, I feel like I'm used to it. So it's, I mean, it's just like, it's, it's, it's nothing that I've ever really taken personally. Because I understand the situation, you know, I understand that, you know, whatever the smears are, however radical they are, you know, it shows me that they feel threatened and they are concerned about both the unifying message that I'm bringing because we have Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents who are joining this coalition that is fueling our campaign. And it's a campaign of by and for the people and one that's actually speaking the truth, that's calling for an end to these regime change wars, calling for a de-escalation of tensions between the United States and other nuclear-armed countries, an end to this new Cold War, nuclear arms race. Actually, hey, let's focus our limited taxpayer dollars on actually serving the needs of our people. That's really the message that we're bringing, and it scares the hell out of them.

What's interesting is, for me, again, as an outsider, it's a clear recognition that what they want versus what they say they want are two very different things. Exactly. The Democratic Party has always been like, we want a woman, okay, got you a woman. How about a woman that's a veteran? Check. How about a woman that's a congressman? How about that? Congresswoman, veteran. Minority. Minority from Hawaii. a woman how about a woman that's a veteran check how about a woman that's a congressman how about that congresswoman veteran minority minority from hawaii all these positives they're trying to dig up dirt in you they don't have anything that should be behind you they should have wind in

your sails but the other thing they're saying is that you know in order for democrat to beat donald trump in 2020 you're going to have to be able to take Trump voters away from him. You're going to have to win over those independents who stayed home in 2016, or even some of those Democrats who voted for Trump because they feel like our party has left them behind. Guess what? Check, check, check, check. We're doing all those things. And instead of saying, hey, this is really something that maybe we should get behind. Instead, they're saying, oh, my gosh, there's something very suspicious and weird about her because she's actually stealing voters from Trump. That's yeah, that's the big one, right?

Has there ever been someone in your position that's gotten caught in such a crossfire? Like to be taking this much heat from the party that you're trying to represent is, it seems, I don't remember this happening. Well, they thought Harris had a real shot and she sunk Harris's ship. That's exactly what happened. I mean, if you look at that, there's a direct correlation between where Harris was standing and where she's at now in that debate. It just, you put holes in her boat. boat. Which was, you know, I was raising some very important issues related to criminal justice reform, you know, ending the federal marijuana prohibition, and essentially pointing to leadership, because we're all asking to lead this country and bring the experience that each of us has

that's very distinct and different. And her whole campaign was based on the premise of being a prosecutor for the people being the attorney general here in california and i you know i i okay you you've said you're proud of your record this is what you have done when you were in a position to make a positive change for the people instead you chose to do otherwise and i think that speaks louder louder than words when you had more bullets in the chamber too because there was other things you didn't even touch it like you didn't really touch upon her uh saying to single mothers that she was going to prosecute them and lock them up if they didn't get their kids in school laughing as she did so yeah i mean that's i've seen her talk about that as if it's a good idea yeah that this was a good solution yeah and i mean

single moms into with with a fear of jail if their kid didn't go to school yeah that's that's the challenge of this this debate format that's that's so frustrating is you know you've got 60 to 75 seconds to get your point across to be able to talk about hey here's my position here's what i would do with you know north kore position here's what i would do with you know north korea here's how i would deal with you know immigration reform uh in 60 seconds or less jaco i don't even know how you stand politically which is hilarious because you're one of the few guys that's just not defined politically online because people think of you as such a savage they leave all the politics out of it they just go i don I don't know what. He just gets up at 4 o'clock in the morning, leaves a puddle of sweat.

He's America. He's Team America. That's what I'm saying. It seems like you don't have this thing with left or right. You don't have this right or left distinction. Yeah, and what's really interesting, if you look at the demographics of the people I meet when I go and speak, it's everyone. It's everyone from every different spectrum. And I'm just talking, my political beliefs are like, hey, I believe in individual freedom.

Well, that seems to me, it's kind of hard to argue against that, right? I believe in individual freedom. And with that goes some level of individual responsibility. Yep. Okay. I don't think the government is a great solution to a lot of our problems, you know? So for me,

it's like a smaller government, probably a better thing. And I think probably why you get this impression from me is I actually have a balanced, I believe that the solutions are somewhere balanced. And in America right now, that, that doesn't really get a lot of traction because everything is broken down into such little tiny sound bites of you're either pro this or you're against it. And there's no gray area.

And by the way, if you believe this, if you believe yes and I believe no, I actually hate you. And I'm going to attack you. And that's why when I started going back and forth with Tulsi, like I, you know, I kind of get a gist of what she thinks and I'm like, oh, cool. Guess what? I think she surfs, she trains martial arts. She plays, uh, she plays ukulele. Oh, I can hang out with her. And even if our, our political beliefs aren't 100% aligned, which my political beliefs aren't a hundred percent aligned with anybody. Does that mean that I hate her and I'm never going to talk to her i'm going to call her out no

actually it's like oh cool oh that's an interesting perspective because one thing that gets tied into all these things nowadays is our ego right our ego we we pin ourselves into a corner where it's like i believe this and now the last thing we can do is is say oh actually you know what i that's a good point joe you you know what i never thought of it from that perspective before. And also just thinking of what other people's perspectives are, because, you know, you just talked about single moms. Well, you've got to take that into perspective because it might be easy for me to say, because I've got kids, but I got a wife and we can make things happen.

But all those single moms over here working two, three jobs, you know, you always talk about me getting up at 430 in the morning. And I always say, look, there's single moms out there that are getting up at three 30 in the morning to go work their first shift at the diner so they can get to their second shift at the grade school or wherever they're working. So they can do their third shift at some other restaurant at night. Like, okay, that's going on. I got to understand that perspective. And we all have to understand that perspective. And the last thing, when you talk about this 60 second answers, which, which is insane. you know i've been

interviewed on tv before a bunch as well and it's actually crazy it's when you compare it to a podcast it's completely crazy that you have to fit your thoughts into one sentence maybe two sentences and the 24-hour news cycle that we're on every news story that comes out is the end of the world, right? It's like the end of the world. Everything that happens is, hey, Trump did this or Pelosi did that. This is the end of the world. Just like when, if Hillary got elected, it's the end of the world. If Trump gets elected, it's the end of the world.

I had early on, right after Trump got elected, somebody, I was doing a Reddit AMA. And as soon as I signed on for my reddit ama up pops this question and it's clearly the guy had spent a lot of time writing it and it was this this sort of breakdown of the russians and trump and all this negativity and and you know i basically took his whole paragraph and i answered it in one sentence i said amer America is stronger than one man. And that's the truth. Like, Hey, America is stronger than one man. One man is not going to take down this country. That's, that's the way it is, right? It's hardship to turn. Look at what Trump's got accomplished. You know, he, he, he's working as hard as he can to get stuff done and he could barely move the

needle, right? That's the way it is. And on top of that, look at what happens with our political system. You know, we had Carter. Oh, there's a backlash against carter we have reagan right oh you know you know these things go back and forth we end up with clinton then we end up with bush you know the and then we end up with obama and then we end up with trump so there's a balance that happens out so when i think of my political beliefs or where i stand politically, it's like, oh, I stand. You're not going to be able to place me very well because I'm going to listen to what different people have to say. I'm going to try and understand what their perspectives are. And then I'm going to say, oh, not what's best for me or what satisfies my ego, but what's good for America.

Well, it actually makes sense for America. And that's what I would move forward on. Tulsi, have you thought at all about doing a podcast of your own i have i just it's it's been uh it's been a just a function of time and capacity almost like you could just have someone record some of your thoughts while you're on tour and just do it you know like it doesn't have to be overproduced yeah just real simple release it but that ability to get those thoughts out there in a way where you you can form full sentences explore ideas express your concerns talk about it without the pressure of this buzzer when when when you're in the middle of something congresswoman congresswoman

congresswoman we gotta cut the commercial yeah the tide is waiting yeah congresswoman we gotta sell a toyota truck it It's so goddamn crazy. This is how we decide our leaders. And the idea that, isn't it possible? Can't someone step up? Can't Apple or fucking Samsung or something step up and say, all right, we are going to advertise at the beginning of this show, and then we're going to promote the whole show.

So the whole show, we're going to just let it run with no commercial interruptions. Let's do a few hours. That's what should happen. Why are we doing an hour? Why is it two hours? It should be as long as it takes. Didn't Lincoln do speeches that were hours long? Yelling, right?

No microphone? It's so strange that we have decided that this commercial-oriented, meaning it has to be sandwiched in between commercials, that this is the way we are going to let our potential future leaders discuss the most important thing on earth. And it's going to be interrupted by, what, gum? No, it's true. Like, what are you selling in between? It's so dumb. And people are getting really turned off by it because they have alternatives they have alternatives and they're not getting anything

of value from the conversation um that's happening on these these debates that are really like political reality tv they are completely set up for conflict and confrontation uh to drive up ratings so that they can make more money, the corporate media can make more money. The first debate had something like 22 million viewers. The one that we just did, I think, had 6.6 million viewers. And I meet people almost every single day. They're like, man, I don't got time for that.

I don't get anything from it anyway. And rather than it being this money-driven, ratings-driven venture, which, you know, the media is doing across the board, both the debates and kind of what issues they're choosing to cover. who used to actually host presidential forums that would have real questions about real issues that people care about in a way that's not broken up by commercial breaks and advertisements so that people can make money. Yeah, and this is not hard to do. I mean, YouTube is available for virtually anyone who wants to set up an account. This all could be done, and it could be done very easily. I mean, what we're showing is the fragility, this antiquity, this ancient system that doesn't make any sense. And we're seeing it evaporate before our eyes.

And with a guy like Trump. And then people are using these debates knowing that they're going to get these sound bites. And you could see some of them work, like yours with Kamala Harris. And some of them don't. Like when she was attacking Elizabeth Warren for not wanting Trump to get kicked off of Twitter. Like, do you read his Twitter? It's fantastic. Keep him on.

That's the best way we understand who he really is. I mean, you can get some of that out of speeches. But when he posts a picture of Greenland with a giant Trump tower in it and says, I promise not to do this. Listen, if you're on Team America, you want that guy to keep tweeting. You know what's going on. It's hilarious, too. You called it a while ago when you say, hey, no one, there's no comedians that have run, that have that skill, which Trump has, of cracking jokes, making fun of people, letting

the other jokes roll off his back because he doesn't care what people say about him, basically. And no one's really had to contend with that until now. Yeah. It's really interesting. Like, no one knows how to handle it. It's really fun. I mean, when you watch the original Republican debates, when he was running for president and he starts attacking these guys, you see them. Mark or Ruby.

All the nicknames. You see them lock up. Crazy Ted. Like, oh, he's going after me he's ruining my thing it's just yeah it's it's a it's a nutty place to to watch what was it do you get to hang out with kamal harris backstage no no i mean there's everybody no there's there's like a just like a little holding area kind of space like a lot smaller than this room this room. So all you're all hanging out in there together during the commercial breaks.

Yeah. But do you say anything to you have eye contact with her? No, maybe every now and then, but I, I honestly like, yeah, I I'm,

I'm probably not on the top of her friend list. Yeah. You sank a battleship. And then, I mean, Hillary Clinton. Yeah, that was another one. What's up with that war? Because again, she's the matriarch of the Clinton family,

and there she is, the hero to many people of the Democratic Party. And you two are scrapping. Did that start when you, did that start, did you support Bernie in 2016? Is that where it started? Yeah. Okay. And that was something, yeah, back in 2016,

I was the vice chair of the Democratic National Committee. Therefore, as an officer of the DNC, had to remain neutral in the presidential election, which was my plan to do so. I really made the decision to resign from that seat so that I could endorse Bernie Sanders largely because of his difference with Hillary Clinton in foreign policy. You know, Hillary Clinton had, you know, very much of an interventionist, in my opinion, kind of the war hawk regime change war policy that she had shown throughout her time,

both in the administration as well as as a US Senator and Bernie Sanders, you know, lean the other way. He's more of a non interventionist. And I saw that in those debates at that time, the conversations that were in the media was not bringing up this difference between the two of them. So the voters could make an informed choice of who they want their commander in chief to be, which to me, just as a soldier, as a veteran, as an American, I'm like, how can you not be putting this issue at the forefront? So I resigned from that position, endorsed Bernie Sanders, started going out and just talking about and raising these issues on the campaign trail.

But I remember one of the first interviews that I did on MSNBC, the host of the show saying, aren't you afraid of what the Clintons will do to you? Said this on live television. And, you know, my answer was no, obviously, but it was amazing. It was interesting to see the reaction the days after, when I first went back to D.C. after I made that announcement of endorsement.

And friends of mine, politicians in Washington, they were like, man, Tulsi, go with God, sister. It's a different animal. See, if you get into some sort of verbal altercation with joe biden there's no concern for your life like i'm not saying it's real or not but but the rumor is always there's a thing called the cleaning body count yeah i don't know if that's real i don't think it is probably some of it most of it let's say it's all made up the fact that that's out there that the thought is out there that they will whack you well there's there's i mean the people who are saying hey look you know there are lists that

are kept and your political career will be over that was really the message that i got from from people who've been around the block a few times and i think the most recent thing that um that came up with what hillary clinton said about me is is not it's not a spat between two people. It really just shows the complete difference and the conflict in our foreign policy views of what I call the Bush-Clinton doctrine of interventionism and regime change wars and warmongering versus what I'm putting forward, which is let's stop the regime change war, world's police policies, work to end this new Cold War and arms race, put the interests of the American people first, always ensuring that we have a strong and capable, ready military to defend our nation and our people, and honoring that service and sacrifice that our troops give

by only sending them on missions worthy of their sacrifice, maximizing diplomacy, engagement with other countries in the world through cooperation rather than conflict and always seeing war as a last resort. seeing so much of the corporate media and the political machine attacking me is because of this difference, is because of this change in foreign policy that I'm bringing about. Because when it comes right down to it, you know, whether you're going back to the Cold War, back to Vietnam War, back to, you know, the Iraq War overthrowing Saddam Hussein, Libya, Gaddafi, the media has always kind of been this cheerleading voice for these wars to happen, sending a very clear narrative out to the American people. And I think it comes down to it's good business for them. It's good ratings. Make some money.

I want to talk to you about that, but I want to talk to you about what she said to you or about you rather. Yeah. That she said that you were a Russian asset. That was the insinuation, right? Yeah. What was the base of that? And how does someone completely baseless that's what's weird right how does someone who was running for president

and is one of the most prominent politicians in our country how do they get away with something saying something that's that's such a huge accusation with no information to back it up? It would be a good question for a normal person. But when you look at the power of the Clinton machine, when you look at the power of the political establishment, which is made up of people who are either part of the Clinton so-called family or who are part of this political establishment that is built on the same foundation that she, Hillary Clinton, laid, when you look at the media establishment who've been pushing a lot of the same narrative and a lot of the same message,

then you can see how somebody gets away with calling a sitting member of Congress, a candidate for president, a soldier actively serving the Army National Guard, veteran of two Middle East deployments, basically a traitor to the country that I love and that I'm willing to lay my life down for and to get away with it without any evidence or base whatsoever. Not just that, but no pushback. No. That was the most bizarre thing

no one said hold on you what are you saying she is you're saying she's a russian asset define that what do you mean by that do you mean an unwitting russian asset are you saying that russia's behind her to try to to do something against bernie or elizabeth warren or whatever the consensus pick is like what are you saying? There was no questions like that. There were no questions like that. And look, even if there were witting or unwitting, so she's basically either saying that I'm a traitor to my nation or that I am an unwitting asset, which means basically you are too stupid and too naive

to know that you're being used to further the interests of a nation other than our own, both of which are deeply, deeply offensive. And again, without any base. And I think that that's the like, this is bigger. This is this is really not about me, the danger here of what she did and how the media responded and how almost every single other candidate for president refused to comment, refused to denounce what she said. I think Bernie is an exception, Marianne Williamson, Andrew Yang, a couple of them had the courage to say, hey, look, this is ridiculous. And a couple of them had the courage to say, hey, look, this is ridiculous. The fact that that was the response is really, it has a chilling effect on our freedom of speech in this country. any other veteran who dares to stand up and challenge the establishment, challenge this foreign policy narrative, call for peace, call for an end to these senseless, unnecessary regime change wars, then you too can be smeared. Your character can be smeared.

Do you ever think you could reach a tipping point where this happens enough, this kind of thing happens where you just say, all right, I'm done with, in this case, the Democratic Party. I mean, even after what they did to Bernie in 2016, right? I'm sure that had to be a tipping point for a lot of people that said, wait a second, this is the guy we wanted and you totally hosed him. And now we got this woman over here, but we didn't want him. How many times can this happen before people go oh you know i'm done with this i i see this as something that's bigger than just the democratic party uh because we see this um we see how this kind of uh foreign policy elite and establishment in washington has crossed both parties uh over different times uh and it's

something that i think goes much deeper than that. I'm working to bring about reforms in the Democratic Party to make it so that it is more democratic, more open, more transparent, more inclusive and welcoming of people who may agree on some issues, disagree on others, but one that is actually serving as a platform for the people, fighting for the people, thinking about what's in the best interest of the people. That's the kind of change and reform that I'm working to bring about in the party. But I think the forces that we're challenging here are actually much bigger than that.

I mean, you got to give a lot of credit to the Republican Party because the establishment Republicans, the last human being in the world that they wanted to run for president on a Republican ticket was Donald J. Trump. Right. And they tried hard to be there. They tried. They tried. But once he was in, they said, that's our president.

Yeah. And that's a very wise thing to do. And, you know, that's where the fear is with a lot of Democrats that someone is going to go independent and that someone who is popular, perhaps you, would go independent and suck a lot of the votes away from the Democratic Party. People disagree with the direction it's going and then that's how the Republicans would win. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I've been asked that a ton of times since, I don't know, months ago. And every single time I've been asked, I've said the answer is no, I'm running to be the Democratic nominee, I will not run as a third party candidate.

And I think that's something else that's been interesting. And again, very transparent, if you're paying attention is, no matter how many times I answer that question from reporters, and no matter how many times my answer is consistently the same, no, that was another thing that Hillary Clinton and others continue to point out. Like, oh, we think she's going to run as a third-party candidate and she's going to be the reason that Donald Trump wins. She's not playing ball. No, and they're clearly trafficking in things that aren't true. So, again, why?

To raise that question in people's minds and to raise that suspicion and to do their best to try to undermine the support that we're getting from people. They did that interview with you on The View. Oh, you saw that? Yeah. And they said something about Richard Spencer, the white supremacist. Because he said, so this is of all the things they bring up. They say, Richard Spencer, a white supremacist Nazi, said he could vote for you.

That's what they decided to bring up. The view is, I mean, we have to really be thankful that it exists because without that level of discourse on television, without being able to watch those geniuses banter around some of the most important ideas of today, I don't know where we would be. I think it elevates us as a society as a civilization and it also shows the rest of the world how it's done if you really want to see how the the baddest country on earth deals with political discourse and social issues watch those gals because they got it down a bunch of damn geniuses you're good

joe thank you you're good it Joe. Thank you. You're good. It doesn't get any better. But they throw that out there. They throw that out there. They throw that out there. And once it's out there, hey, it's out there. And all of a sudden, there's someone else somewhere that heard that clip, Richard Spencey, Tulsi, and that's what they're running with.

That's today, though. Today, there's so much data, right? And there's so much information that all they need is one little smeary thing to toss your way and then people would say oh she's an Assad supporter oh she's a this oh Richard Spencer's favorite candidate that one and then like oh I can't vote for her I don't want to be kicked out of the team this is what we see on Twitter all the time it's a giant issue with the left too the left eats itself way more than any other party and I don't know what that is about liberals in general that seem to really truly enjoy calling each other out for not being liberal enough but it's it's very strange it's it's it's it's such it's so obviously

destructive and it shows that there's no good leadership at the top of the heap because at the top of the heap everybody be like hey we're all in this together okay we can disagree on some stuff but if we start attacking each other, it makes the other side stronger. So let's cut the shit publicly and let's talk this through. And that's pretty much exactly what the Republicans have done for the most part. Yeah. And from a leadership perspective, it is almost always best to look at things in a balanced way and say, Oh, I got this part of my team over here that wants to do this extreme thing. And the other part of the team wants to do the opposite extreme thing.

The answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. Why don't I just find a good kind of solution that's somewhere in the middle? And of course, the fringes are going to be a little bit mad. Okay, I get that. They're the fringes, but the bulk of people and what's good for the bulk of people is to make this kind of balanced decision and move forward with it. But we don't get that kind of logic inside of these leaders, especially when they're running for president. Yeah, which is, you know, they run and then as soon as they get in, they're running for reelection. Yeah. It's just it's so frustrating as a citizen to sit back and watch this going from the debate format to the way things are

handled. It's just, I don't understand why there haven't been radical improvements. There's improvements. And imagine getting a computer from 1990 and trying to do your work on it. Be like this hunk of shit. Like why doesn't somebody do something better? Well,

we have the same exact political system that we had before the internet with the internet. It hasn't been updated at all. And it doesn't make any sense. It's just – it's so bonkers. And we sit around and we wait for this magical day in November where we're going to all fix it. And we all know that it's not going to get fixed. And it's just a weird place to be in where everyone's aware there's an issue and no one's fixing it. When I look at this upcoming election, I have no idea.

Right? Right. And I had a pretty good idea who was going to win in 2016, just like everyone else. I figured, oh, of course, Hillary Clinton's going to win this thing. I didn't. You knew? I talked about it in my comedy special. Wow.

I talked about it in Triggered my Netflix special from 2016 I'm like he's that close you guys I go President Trump could be a real thing because

I was seeing I was going across the country and doing these gigs all over the place and like these people are angry they're angry at liberals they're angry at people

that are you know forcing policies that they don't agree with whether it's social policies or economic policies there's so many people that thought that bernie sanders was gonna steal all their money well it was just i was seeing it i was like he might win every time someone said oh if you believe in if you believe in border security you're a racist yeah right hey if you

believe in border security you're a racist well that makes ob. Hey, if you believe in border security, you're a racist. Well, that makes Obama a racist. Yeah. And, but, but all those people that heard that, like, I'm not a racist. What are you talking about?

I'm voting for Trump. Right. Exactly. And that is what happened. It's still what's happening. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's still playing out right now,

you know, where people are saying exactly that, that if you believe in secure borders, then you must be anti-immigrant and you must be a racist and vice versa. efficient means possible and update our immigration laws so that they are humane and that they actually serve the interests of our country our economy our families education and so on and so forth i mean this is something that yeah republicans and democrats if you just sit down and have the conversation say oh yeah well i i actually agree with that like you're saying like okay that's a really good point we maybe we should do it this way maybe we should do it that way but if we can agree on the objective then we can have the

meaningful conversation about how to get there rather than continuing what we are doing where we're seeing we have not seen an update to our immigration laws for decades i think since reagan actually we have not seen a comprehensive immigration reform which we so desperately need it's because honestly both sides are so busy throwing crap at each other and arrows at each other because it's about partisanship and getting the political win rather than actually solving the problem that's the difference it's easy to cry racism when you look at the difference between the border of mexico and the border of canada because the border of canada is like giant landing strip like come on. It's just woods and then there's a

huge gap in the woods. It's the opposite of a fence. It's like we're going to make it easier for you to cross. We're going to show you where the line is. Have you seen the border? You've seen the border of Canada? It's hilarious. The economy in Canada is not going to force people to try and get to America.

It's pretty nice up there. That's the issue. The real issue is there's parts of the world you know what whatever you want to use third world whatever phrase you want to use there's parts of the world economically where if you're born there you're kind of screwed you know it's really hard to get by it's really hard if you're living in a poor community in mexico that's run by the cartel what a shit roll of the dice you know you just you got a bad hand of cards that's what it is and until that gets balanced out which traditionally takes centuries right for close nearby countries to sort of for everything to even out especially

when the politics are so different between mexico and the United States. And Mexico is just insanely corrupt. Sorry, Mexico. But, I mean, you saw what happened with Chapo's son. He gets arrested by the Mexican military. And then the cartels force them to release him. And they're like, all right, take him back. Sorry. We'll figure this out later.

Yeah. And that's something that, you know, that's the kind of change and the rooting out of corruption reforms that can only happen organically within Mexico. Could you imagine, Jocko, as a military man, a situation like that happening in the United States where some cartel forces the United States military to release a prisoner? No. No. Could you imagine? No. Could you imagine the backlash there are so many rednecks that would just be just spending all day filling cartridges

i mean it would just be the militia will rise up my god yeah you want to find out what the second amendment's really for if if that ever took place in this country if there was ever a situation in this country we felt like we were really overrun by a cartel where they're taking over cities, like what's going on in Mexico, it would be, you would understand how rabidly independent this country really is. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And even, you know, when you talk about people that are living down in Mexico that wanted to come here, it's like, oh, you know, you feel for them because they got a bad deal. You feel for them because they got a bad deal.

But a lot of the people that are trying to come here are MS-13 gangsters looking to come up here and whatever, do what they're going to do in America where there's even more money to be made off of illegal activities. Yeah. If you could throw the Wonder Woman lasso of truth around them and find out what they're really all about, that would be great. That would be awesome. We can't really do that. If you're just poor and you want to make it, hey, come on in. You're a hard worker. Excellent. So are my grandparents.

Come on in. But it's just the idea that we should all have open borders and everybody should be able to go anywhere. Like, eee. Boy, there's a lot of people that you don't want coming here. And it probably should be a good idea to check people for criminal history and violent pasts and, you know, see if you're a member of the cartel before you sneak into Mexico or Arizona. You know, I think there are practical limitations. Even if you said, okay, well, you know, we want to welcome anybody and everybody in the world who is suffering and who is in need of help or a better life to come to the United States. It's just not realistic.

We don't have the resources as a country to be able to do that when, you know, look, here in L.A. I was on Skid Row about a month or two ago coming and visiting there. The homeless crisis in Hawaii is the worst per capita of any state in the country. It's something that's affecting both urban cities and rural communities across the country. It's something that's affecting both urban cities and rural communities across the country. We have, you know, almost 80 million people who are uninsured and underinsured in this country who can't get the medicine they need and who are literally driving their kid to Mexico to buy insulin because they have diabetes and, we've got to be pragmatic and practical in how we are seeing the situation, looking at what our objective is, and how does that best serve the people of this country, and then figure out, okay, what's the best way for us to get there. And I think that's what's unfortunately lost in this hyper partisan political atmosphere, whether you're talking about what's going on in Washington and the media or what's going on in Twitter, where you have these extremes, you have this rush to judgment,

when people aren't taking the time both to sit down and first try to understand the problem, this goes back to like military decision making process 101. First, you got to understand the problem, right? You're trying to solve, come up with what's the objective, make sure it's achievable, and then build your plan and then execute that just doesn't happen these days because it's more about calling the other guy's names or you know having this race on this happens all the time there's like something happens in the news for the political candidates running for president it's who can get their tweet out the fastest on the issue we saw this recently with uh the situation in syria with the kurds and who can get the tweet out the fastest on the issue we saw this recently with uh the situation in syria with

the kurds and who can get the tweet out the fastest people are asking me like hey what do you have to say what do you have to say i'm like i'm trying to understand the situation first i'm actually trying to understand what happened and why we are in the situation that we're in once i do that i'll let you know what i think and that was another one of those end of the world scenarios that unfolded you know we trump pulled the troops out of out of that area and it was like oh the world's gonna end and and look there was some bad stuff that happened i get it some isis folks folks some isis terrorists murderers escaped i I got that. Some, some Kurds were killed, like some bad stuff happened, but it wasn't the end of the world. And, and one thing, you know, I was at my second deployment to Iraq. We were, we started doing counterinsurgency operations instead of

counter-terrorist operations. So we, we, we changed our strategy. And as we did this, we were, we changed our strategy. And as we did this, we were, we were starting to kill a decent amount of bad guys, a bad of these insurgents. So a few weeks go by and I got a message from up in my chain of command. And they're like, Hey, Jocko, we get that you're doing these missions, but right now we're not seeing any changes in the metrics as far as enemy attacks that are happening, we're not seeing any changes in the metrics as far as enemy attacks that are happening, happening. Right. And luckily I had read the, the counterinsurgency manual that was written by general Petraeus. And, and I, part of that explains that the average counterinsurgency takes seven years to work itself out. Right. And so I said, Hey, you know, boss, the average counterinsurgency takes seven years to flush itself out. It's

only been three weeks. Can I get some more time here to work through this? And he's like, okay, yeah, you know, makes sense. But my point is, it's the same thing here. We think that some news event that we can fully understand a news event within one hour of it happening. We don't have any understanding. You need to let these things develop and see where the actual long-term effects are. We can't be snapping judgments and making radical decisions or split decisions when we have to actually assess what is really going on. decision. And you can see it's comical to flip back and forth between the two, the left-wing media and the right-wing media. And one of them is the greatest decision ever. And the other one's the most horrible thing that's ever happened. And there you go. And you know, no one can even make an assessment of what just happened because it only happened 14 minutes ago. How about we see where it plays out? It's about being first rather than actually being accurate and presenting the

American people with, here's what has gone on. You can form your own opinion. You can form your own conclusion. But here's the course of events that took place, A, B, C, D, and E. And that's exactly what we're missing in most of the time. Well, I think it's what we were talking about earlier. I think we're poisoned by this desire to have our information fed to us very quickly. And the fact that there's so much information coming at us, we don't have enough time to sit back and read a manual on how long it takes counterinsurgency efforts to reach fruition. The fact that that's hitting you in the military, that you would think that the most pragmatic, the most disciplined people

that understand the long game, that are playing 3D chess, those are the people that you would want telling people like you what you can and can't do the fact that that kind of thinking is even filtering down to special ops groups is crazy well what's nice is we do have decentralized command inside the military so when i'm telling my boss this what's going on my boss isn't like shut up and do what i told you to do my boss is like okay makes sense explain it to me okay got it yeah that makes sense cool move forward that's that's a very positive thing in the military everyone thinks that the military is this rigid structured way where you just obey the chain of command you don't you don't veer from that at

all but if my boss tells me to do something that doesn't make any sense i'm gonna say hey boss this actually is a bad plan we should do it a different way and if i have a good boss my boss says oh okay i didn't see that angle and that's another, you know, when Tulsi's talking about how politicians, we come up with a plan and then we start executing the plan, guess what? Once you start executing a plan, some other things are going to come to light, right? And you as a leader have to say, hey, you know what? We started executing this. It's going pretty good, but I didn't foresee this happening. I'm making an adjustment. Here it is. Here's what we're going to do. And I'm going to wait for that feedback to come to me the problem is people are so insecure or slash their ego is so big that they won't they'll just i'm just going to stick with the same plan no matter

everyone else is dumb no you just need to see it through it's like no actually we need to make some changes because they you know they they are afraid of saying hey my initial assessment might have been inaccurate or wrong and and i think that that also just points to the bigger point for the political leadership, the civilian leadership that sets the policy that the military executes is so often lacks that foresight and that planning of actually looking, okay, if we pursue course of action A, you know, we call it here will be the second, third, fourth order of effects, right? Here's how, you know, the enemy or the opponent is likely to react, or here's how other actors are likely to react to our action.

So we can try to anticipate that, and then we can, okay, this is how we would respond. This is how they're likely to respond and actually go through this so that we don't end up in the situation that we too often find ourselves in where you're like, all right, here's the mission, guys, go for it. And then you, whether it's a week or a month or a year later, like, hey, how the hell do we find ourselves here? It's like you failed as leaders, the leaders of our country failed to ask those questions about, you know, what happens, what happens next? You know, after we go in and topple Saddam Hussein and we completely obliterate the entire Iraqi military,

what actually happens next? What will be the consequences to this? What will be the cost to our troops, our military? What will be the cost to the Iraqi people? What will be the cost to American taxpayers? Do we know what the objective is? Is it achievable? What's our end state and exit strategy? When you look back've just i've seen this throughout my seven years in congress sitting on the foreign affairs committee uh sitting on the armed services committee where we're we're questioning and providing oversight over the department of defense and department of state asking leaders these questions and when we're not given answers or given ambiguous answers or things like um you know, I asked Secretary Mattis once in a hearing

about how Al Qaeda has gotten so strong in Syria to where, I mean, right now they control an entire city, the entire city of Idlib is controlled by Al Qaeda. And I asked him at that time, I said, why aren't we going after Al Qaeda in Syria in a very serious and concerted way? And his answer was, well, it's complicated. It's complicated. it's been a very clear window into the lack of foresight and good judgment and just the ability to look at these challenges and situations with that basic understanding in a non-emotional way and understand what's the objective cost and consequences before we launch this action. I want to talk about something you brought up briefly earlier about the media being sort

of cheerleaders for a lot of these wars or a lot of these military actions. Do you think that that happens because this ensures that they get access? Do you think it happens because conflict is good for their business? Do you think it happens because if they don't act as cheerleaders, they don't get access to the leaders and to the important politicians and military leaders? I mean, I think that the underlying driver is that conflict is good for ratings. That's crazy that that is their decision how to cover things and what's been. And it's the war machine that they're a part of and that they're a driving force for. I think that, yeah, there have been reports. I think over time, I think you had Matt Taibbi here recently where you've got journalists who are more or even even, you know, papers who are more interested in

covering for their, you know, CIA relationships, rather than actually bringing forward a story that the truth, you know, that the American people deserve to hear. So, you know, I think there are other factors there that drive the media really playing a heavily influential and dangerous force in continuing to push this warmongering narrative that is, you know, I mean, it's costly in an immeasurable way. Well, the coverage is so influential and that influence, it changes the way people accept or don't accept things that are happening internationally. You know, when there's some, I mean, what was the, do you remember when there was a time when Obama had talked about attacking Syria?

Yes. And doing something. That was in 2013. The entire country was like, fuck you. Like, it was huge. That was my first year in Congress. I mean, it was one of the biggest, like, of an idea global or nationally that i've ever seen and then he kind of backed off it you know it was like oh okay i think i think that was one of the most brave decisions that he made

to back off from it where he actually you know he didn't take that position in that example of just kind of being the obstinate, stubborn, like, nope, here's what I said, and he drew this red line, and I'm not going to go back on it no matter what. No, he did. I think he listened to the American people, and ultimately he chose diplomacy. Well, this is an area where people have been critical of you, is your position on Syria and the fact that you had met with Assad and this is something that gets brought up. And again, it gets brought up in these little soundbite things that are seeking to define you without any nuance or any complexity. Just let this little tiny sentence or two define your position and then they can repeat that to other people without really knowing what they're talking about. What is your position on syria and asad and how did all this conflict and all this weirdness

with you and the subject begin i think i think it it goes back to again um the the opposition uh that comes towards me from the political establishment, the corporate media and the military-industrial complex, because of the leadership and the voice that I've been bringing, calling for an end to regime change wars, whether we're talking about the one in Iraq, Libya, and in Syria. Look, my choice will always be towards diplomacy. Because if we lack the courage to meet with both adversaries and friends in the pursuit of our own national security and peace, the only alternative is war. Period. That's the way it is. So I will always choose to maximize all diplomatic means

and measures and talks and negotiations to further our interests of peace and national security, recognizing that war should always be the last resort, if necessary. Now, it's very difficult for people to understand that these things are insanely messy. And you saying that you would always lean towards diplomacy does not mean you support dictators. But that's exactly the way they frame it. But if you look at the famous Hillary Clinton speech after Gaddafi was killed, we came, we saw, he died, and she was laughing. Libya's a failed state now. They have slaves that they're auctioning off on YouTube.

I mean, you could watch slave auctions that someone filmed with their camera on their phone, and they upload it to YouTube. Libya's gone. I mean, it's a chaotic place right now. It wasn't good when Gaddafi was running Libya, yeah it wasn't good when qaddafi was running libya but it wasn't as bad as it is now so the idea that supporting qaddafi is supporting a dictatorship and you're a monster for supporting him like maybe not because it's kind of worse now because the world is a very messy place and it's not even a matter of of quote-unquote supporting

it's just saying hey we're not going to come in and overthrow you and your government i think that's that's the thing that that's the issue here and the contradiction when people are criticizing me for exercising diplomacy and calling for an end to the regime change uh war that we've been waging in syria since 2011 but then they'll say, oh, well, of course, I was against overthrowing Saddam Hussein in Iraq, right? There's no intellectual, there's no consistency there. And I think the issue with Libya that so often gets overlooked is, again, we look at what will the consequences be of these regime change wars? You said, I mean,

Libya is a completely failed state. There are more terrorist organizations and strongholds in Libya now than there ever were before when Gaddafi was there. The people of Libya are suffering far more now than they were before. We also see this other effect on our own national security where our regime change war policy has undermined our ability to negotiate with Kim Jong-un in North Korea towards denuclearization. You have the leaders of North Korea time and time again have said, hey, look, we're developing nuclear weapons as the only deterrent that'll work against the United States coming in and overthrowing our government, said it over and over and over again. And they've pointed to examples like Libya saying that,

well, you guys are saying you want to come in and negotiate with us to get rid of our nuclear weapons. You told Gaddafi the same thing. You said, hey, Gaddafi, get rid of your nuclear weapons program. We'll leave you alone. And then you went in and overthrew Gaddafi. Why will this be any different with us and then you've got John Bolton as as then the national security director for uh for Trump

going on television or giving speeches saying yeah you know we're going to approach North Korea with the Libya model he said that and so when we wonder like hey why aren't these and I I think I'm I think Trump was right and I've said it publicly trump is right to have direct negotiations with kim jong-un but he hasn't gotten anywhere and you've got to look at why and this is one of the reasons why continuing to say hey no we're not going to overthrow you uh in your government kim jong-un but on the other hand you're you're continuing the policies that directly undermine your ability to make that agreement that'll hold and that'll stay. And as a result now, you know, we have North Korea that's nuclear weapons program is

continuing to escalate. Their capabilities are continuing to grow. And it poses a threat not only to, you know, my folks in Hawaii, the people of Hawaii, given our proximity to North Korea, but their capabilities now they're extending across the West Coast, they're extending across of the Iran nuclear agreement. North Korea says, hey, you guys made an agreement with them. You got a different president elected. He tore up that agreement. Why should we think that's going to be any different with us? So these policy decisions that are being made are very directly connected in having the effect ultimately of undermining our national security and making the American people less safe. having the effect ultimately of undermining our national security and making the American people less safe? I'll tell you, I think a couple things come up from just kind of on what you're saying, and this is kind of my perspective on it. When we talk about, hey, when you go in somewhere,

you've got to know what the end state is. You've got to know where you're going and when you're going to leave. You've got to have an an exit strategy what's really hard about that is we don't necessarily know and war is so impredict unpredictable that you may you know there's there's a chance that you went in killed Gaddafi and then all of a sudden some benevolent person steps up and all of a sudden you've got this flourishing democracy okay what are the chances of that no very small but you don't know that it's going to go into this this completely completely failed state. You have high hopes. Maybe your Intel people are saying you this. It's like when we, you know, when we did the Bay of pigs, all the Cubans in America were like, yep. As soon as you guys hit the beaches, all the Cubans are going to be on our side. It's

going to be good to go. All the Cubans that supported America were in America. We showed up there and they were like, what are you doing? No, this is our country. So we don't necessarily know where we're going to go Which means you've got to have once again like the open mind to say oh this isn't going the way We thought it was going to go how are we going to adjust right now to prevent this from getting worse? Which means what you really have to do Is prior to intervening in other countries you have to assess What sacrifices you are willing to make to to get

the result that is positive and and it's and those those could be massive you know i always talk about if you're going to go to war you've got to have the will and that will comes in two forms number one is the will to kill because when you go to war you are going to be killing people you're going to be killing the enemy and you're going to be killing civilians. And that's not what we're trying to do. And believe me, the US military goes through great lengths to prevent that from happening, but it is going to happen. It's war. So you have to be willing to kill. You have to be willing to have that happen. And you have to be willing to die because when you go to war there's gonna be American kids that are not gonna come home And so you have to have those two wills

That's before you go in so you can't look at it and say well, you know, we can go into Libby We can move this guy and probably it'll turn out Okay, so we don't have to worry about what the sacrifices are gonna be another thing to think about when we went to war When we went to World War two, world war one, those kids, 18 years old, 17 years old, those kids went to war until the war was over. They, they, they went on deployment like now, you know, in the, in the Navy, in the Marine Corps to six, seven month deployment in the army. Sometimes it's a 14 month appointment and then they're going to rotate back to the States in world war two. It was like, Oh cool. Yeah. We're at war.

You'll be home when it's over. So five years, four years. If that was our attitude going into the war, this is so important to us that Johnny is going to get on a ship and he's going to sail to the Pacific. And if he comes home, it's going to be in three years, four years,

five years. That's what we're talking about. That's the level of commitment we have. So when we start looking at going into other countries, we need to start thinking, okay, what level of commitment do we really have to make this successful? And like, even when I look at Iraq, you know, I was in Iraq, I fought in Iraq. From a granular perspective, being on the ground, Battle of Ram ramadi 2006 the citizens of ramadi the normal citizens of ramadi were overjoyed that we were there and it was like we were we were angels to go there and help them get rid of these heinous al-qaeda insurgents which eventually became ISIS. Unfortunately, we did a great job.

Ramadi was the model of counterinsurgency for about seven years, and it was less violent than many cities in America. And I had great pride and at least understood the sacrifices. My friends that were killed, my friends that never came home, my friends that won't get to have kids

Right, they did all that they gave all that and I was able to look around and say, you know what these folks in this foreign country They're gonna they have an opportunity for freedom And unfortunately Because of politics and whatever we said, okay, you know what we're we're not staying there We're gonna leave as soon as we left everybody that had been on the ground in iraq was like This is probably not a good idea. This is probably not a good idea to bail out right now We don't need to leave a massive force there But you know if we leave a few, you know, we leave a couple brigades worth of men then oh We'll probably be able to handle any problems that happen. Well, we didn't. We left completely.

And those insurgents that were there, they were like little embers, and they started to get fired up again. And then the next thing you know, you had ISIS. And by the way, ISIS marched back into Ramadi. And the reports we got from people on the ground that we knew was that ISIS came in, and anyone that had worked with coalition forces on any level, they would murder the whole family. There's about 500 families that were completely murdered so when we talk about these things we have to be very sure about what we're gonna do we have to recognize that we can't predict everything because we can't i don't care how good you are and care

how many analysis you put on something when you start throwing human nature into a leadership vacuum, all these things are going to break out and it's going to, it can go very, very bad. It can go well too, but it can go very, very bad. And so what are we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to spend? How many of our brothers and sisters in uniform are we willing to sacrifice to make this happen? And how does it help our national security? I believe right now, had we stayed there, Iraq would be a pretty strong, positive place right now. If we had

kind of completed the mission the way that we should have. Again, when we go back and we say, well, what countries is it worth going into? Where are we going to go? How do we draw that line? How do we make that decision for me? This is this is what we do as leaders what we do as leaders We look at a situation and and sometimes, you know, you gotta ask yourself Do we have a moral obligation to go somewhere if there's a genocide happening? If there's another rwanda happening where eight hundred thousand Tootsies are killed in a hundred days with machetes. If that's going on, do we have

a moral obligation to try and do something to help that? Hey, that's a decision you have to make. That's a hard decision to make as a leader. Cause guess what? You're going to lose 30, 40, a hundred Americans that are going in there and trying to shut this thing down. But that's the, that's the type of thing we need to think about and that's why as a leader You want to have an open mind you want to have your ego completely out of it because it's really easy to say Oh, this is where America this is what we do. This is we're gonna win It's like no actually we made a bad decision and it were actually leaving right now because we think the Expenditure from here on out is gonna be too high. Unfortunately, I think in Iraq we paid the upfront expenditure We had invested lives and treasure to try and get that place stabilized.

We had done a decent job. We were almost there and we left early. And all of a sudden we look around and go, but that's why these things are important to think about thoroughly. As Tulsi said, before you go, we don't know what's going to happen. And if you're going to get in a street fight, Joe, as capable as you go, we don't know what's going to happen. And you know, if you're going to get in a street fight, Joe, like you look as capable as you are as capable as I am at street fighting. That's great. There's that 10% chance that that guy pulls out a knife and sticks it in your neck.

And are you willing to sacrifice that now, if the guy's doing something to an innocent person, and you go, you know what, I got to take that risk right now. I'm going to go in and I'm going to get this thing handled. Those are hard decisions to make. And we have to think through them. If there was, very well said, if there was one thing when I brought you two together that I thought that you might disagree on, it would be this stance on non-interventionalist foreign policy.

I don't know if that's even the right word disagree but i think there's nuances to these decisions and these things you've done i think you would agree with that and rwanda what you talked about is a great example do you have a moral responsibility to go in when you see some atrocities being committed i mean that's one thing that people either pro or con honors is the united states Are we the police force of the world? Are we the moral high ground? Yeah, I don't, just listening to you, Jock, I think that, I don't think that we actually disagree very much.

You can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think there are important distinctions to be made. You know, my opposition to regime change wars should not be mistaken for isolationism, nor should it be mistaken for anything other than what it is. Let's stop fighting regime change wars that are so often waged in the guise of humanitarianism, but they are pushed forward for other reasons, or their political reasons or corporate reasons or whatever. And they try to get the sympathy of the American people and they use the same words. You know, this guy is a monster. This is this.

When you actually peel back the layers, there are ulterior motives in place that set the pretext to use our military to go and overthrow a regime in another country or topple a dictator. military to go and overthrow a regime in another country or topple a dictator, that ultimately ends up more often than not resulting in the lives of the suffering, more suffering for the people in the countries we're supposedly trying to go and help. However, I've been very strong on this. We're talking about Al Qaeda, ISIS, these other jihadist terrorists who are a threat to our national security. We need to stay strong in defeating that threat. That is our function as warriors, as service members in the military, is to go and protect and defend the American people and to take out those who seek to do us harm. do us harm. In the case of a genocide, like Rwanda, where there is a killing of people at a massive scale, we look to see, hey, is there something that we can do to help end this genocide? Can we work with other countries? Can we bring together a coalition that can effectively stop this genocide?

And if the answer to that is yes, then we should do so. But the problem that we've seen a lot more recently is you'll see the word genocide being used very loosely as an excuse to go and say, hey, well, go and topple this dictator who is inflicting a genocide on their own people without it actually meeting the criteria of a genocide when really there's a conflict within the country, whether it be based on politics or power or whatever. That's a very different thing than what we saw in Rwanda, for example. So as you say, I agree.

I think before we go in and make this decision to take military action, we've really got to look very carefully at what is the situation? Where is the information that we're coming from? Is it coming from people who are pushing their own narrative for their own interests where they're not really caring about the interests of the people in these countries, or the interests of the American people and our troops. They got their own thing going on. We've got to be able to know that and understand that and approach this decision not based on a knee-jerk emotional reaction. And Jocko, what you were talking about earlier is so important here that when you are on one side and the other side is doing something, no matter what, you can never say, well, that makes sense.

You hate that other side. This is a perfect example. When Trump wanted to pull people out of Syria, people on the left were saying no. People on the left were supporting military action in Syria. And I was like, this is bonkers. Upside down. It's weird. Yes, and it's because they despise.

They completely hate Trump. Yeah. And I mean, I know you got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world. I got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world. And it doesn't matter what he does. They have such a passionate hatred for him that he could just cure cancer and people would say, well, he did it for his own good. I have friends that hate him and I have friends that like him and I have friends that love him. And that's what's hilarious to me.

Whenever he does something, I love to call the friends who hate him and just have them scream and yell and rant about it and go, why are you so worked up, man? This is like this quid pro quo thing i've never heard that goddamn expression more in my entire life like who the hell ever thought that quid pro quo would be like a gigantic talking point on every single major new news station every newspaper yeah it's it's a it's a weird time conflict wise in terms of just people's inability to just look at things with nuance and look at the complexity of these conversations and just say you're on team trump or you're not you're with us or you're against us you're you're pro this or you're you're anti-democracy i you know you talk about how trump's kind of the the guy for the assholes like the assholes. And at the other end of the spectrum

is people that they just can't believe. It insults their very being that this guy is the president of the United States. It insults their very being and they're so offended by it that it doesn't matter what he does. It's true, but then there's so many people that are like, you know what, at least I'm not getting robbed of my taxes.

At least I'm not getting called a bigot because I don't want six-foot-six men who transitioned to being a woman last week to play against my daughter in a basketball game. You know what I'm saying? This is the world we're living in where people are like, I'm going with Trump. He's talking talking look kanye west is in the white house he's not a racist and this is where we're living now it's this this weird society that we

have today where we're there's so much coming at us and you can't pay attention to all of us in between all the pop culture nonsense and the the fucking ice caps are melting the environment the ocean's on fire everyone's scared of everything yeah and then on top of that there's all this political stuff that's going on you don't have time to pay attention to all of it if you tell me you're abreast of all of it i'll tell you you're a liar there's no way let me say something else as well so i i have a consulting company and i go around the country and i talk to every level in the chain of command including the frontline troops guys that work construction guys that work gas oil guys that are out do linemen that are output you know at manufacturing everything

those people they're they're met most of them they're not out on the fringe somewhere you know what they're thinking about they're not thinking about what trump's and they're actually thinking about you know how they're gonna if they're gonna thinking about what trump's and they're actually thinking about you know how they're gonna if they're gonna get to take a couple days off over their labor day weekend they're getting thinking about have the do they save enough money that they can get a new truck that's what they're concerned about they're not thinking about this they're trying to live their normal lives and you know when i was on ben shapiro's program and you know he he just came at me like it's so all this divisiveness and i said well you live i, that guy lives at ground zero for political just detonation, right?

And I said, that's not normal life. You're not, it's not normal for everyone else, Ben. Like, I get it. That's what it's like for you, but that's not what it's like for everyone else. So even as the country seems so divided, you got to remember the people that we hear that are so divisive are the loud mouths on either end yes and most people aren't getting in twitter fights about who whatever they're not they're out trying to make a living yeah and you know what's something that you and i think can relate to is that a lot of these people don't have anything that brings them together

and i think they should all join a jujitsu gym 100 they all took jujitsu they politics and all that stuff aside the people that as weird as it seems the people that choke you and you choke and you get armbarred by those are your brothers and sisters and you realize like that the way we look at politics the way we look at decisions and you know what you can agree or disagree on the direction of the country there's a lack of community. There's a real lack of understanding that we're supposed to be, as the United States of America, we're supposed to be a giant community. We're supposed to be a family. And this is not how people are viewing it now.

We're viewing it like there's this gigantic battleground that the world is in an uprising right now. And I don't necessarily think that's true. You know what else, too? That the world is in an uprising right now. And I don't necessarily think that's true. You know what else, too? And I hear you say this sometimes, and I get what you're saying. But you'll say, hey, this person's in a cubicle, and they hate their job, and they hate their life. And that's like, of course, most people aren't like that. I get it that there's some people that end up in jobs that they don't want to do.

And I certainly couldn't see Joe Rogan sitting in a cubicle or on a manufacturing line. But I got a factory up in Maine. These people that are up there working they they love it they're americans that love hard work and they're building an american product and it's like oh okay this is what i do they're in they'll stay extra time they'll do whatever they can they love it they're working for you though they're excited yeah but they're still working they're still working nine hours 10 hours 12, you know, working on it in a factory. That's what they're doing. And they love it. And you know what they want?

They want to have a good economy. They don't want the government to mess with them. It's like, okay, that's what they want. So it's weird how the social media that we complain about is just a, it's an amplification of the extremes. That's what it is right and most people aren't sitting there arguing about what trump did or what hillary clinton did it's a gigantic i mean a small giant a hugely small percentage of the population that is doing all the discourse on twitter it's really tiny two percent and if you look there's a few people that i follow that i don't follow i just have them bookmarked just because they're just bananas.

And I'll go to their page and just look. And they're literally arguing with people about politics or whatever, gender studies. And they're doing it 12 hours a day. They're just at it. They're just frothing at the mouth, sweating palms, just phone slipping out of their hand, banging away with their thumb. And they're doing it all day. Do you think that, or I think that that has something to do with the fact

that they're living some kind of a decent life? I mean, as far as they have food, they have an iPhone, right? There's no wolves in the streets. There's no wolves in the streets, and they're not worried about it. And that's why when we talk about worldwide problems, what I think is what you do, the best possible thing that we can do in this country to help all these problems, every single problem that we've talked about, build a strong economy. Yes. Build a strong global economy.

That's the best thing you can do. A hundred percent. Build a business. Make people have a little bit more money. Yes. That's how you get it done. And that's why, you know, like from my perspective, you know, you get involved in a business, you start a business, you move, you help people, you build a product that people want, you build a business, you help the economy. And that is what equalizes the world more than anything else.

Well, that's also argument for Team Trump. I mean, that's Trump's argument is what he's doing is he's boosting a business in the United States and whether or not you love him or hate him. What he's doing is having a positive net effect on the global economy, particularly the United States economy, and that's going to make us stronger. I mean, whether you love him or hate him, you've got to look at that objectively and go, okay, well, is there any merit to what he's saying? Well, I don't understand economics. I just trust people that study it. I don't have the time.

But they're saying, yes, in some ways he's doing things that benefit business i i think that i think that the the trouble with the approach that trump has taken you know he obviously he's got his shtick and he's got the things that he's got at the talking points the things that he says but he is continuing this um mentality uh when we look at like the trade war with china and, you know, the trade conflict that he started with Canada and now with different European countries. It is it's the zero sum mentality that in order for us and our economy and our people to win, then the people or the economies of these other countries have to suffer. And that's where I agree with what you just said,

of these other countries have to suffer. And that's where I agree with what you just said, Jocko, about, you know, building a strong, helping grow a strong global economy. Gosh, shared prosperity. I mean, you look at the opportunity that would provide for peace and less conflict rather than what we're seeing. And this is playing out in real time with China right now,

where you see this trade war that is escalating, a tariff war that's escalating. I have met with farmers in Iowa who are hurting tremendously because of this trade and tariff war, manufacturers, small business owners, and the danger of this continuing to grow and continuing to escalate. and continuing to escalate, an economic war can very easily turn into a hot war. And again, we're talking about a nuclear-armed country where these ever-escalating tensions push us closer and closer to the brink of nuclear catastrophe, something nuclear strategists are saying that we are closer to now than at least in a generation. I think this is where the foreign policy that I'm that I'm putting forward to the American people that I will lead with is one that

is focused on, on engaging with other countries being that force for good, focusing on cooperation, rather than conflict in every respect, being able to work out Yeah, we do have trade differences with China, there's no question about that. But being able to do so in a way that is not further pushing us closer and closer to the brink of a hot war and potentially uh disastrous can you get into that like what is the trade what is the issue with china like what what is trump feels like we don't have a fair deal right that's what he's stated i I think his diagnosis, I think, is correct. I think it's widely accepted. There's the ongoing trade imbalance with China and some of the issues with IP theft. I think those are the top two that come to the forefront. The problem is not with

the diagnosis of the issue. It is how he's going about it in a very um uh you know shoot from the hip kind of way i mean he's he's like almost conducting his negotiations via twitter he's got negotiators who are sitting across from the chinese saying hey okay we're getting closer to a deal we're going to work this out then all of a sudden something goes out on twitter and they're like whoa man like the whole thing just changed, which, you know, it's maybe funny when Trump is putting out something with Trump Tower in Greenland, but when there are such real consequences to the day-to-day lives of the American people, and when we're pushing us closer and closer to the brink of a nuclear catastrophe,

escalating these tensions with countries like China and with Russia this is I mean it's it's serious the stakes are very high and and so this is this is more about how Trump is doing this in such an irresponsible way that's creating destabilization and uncertainty both with our economy and also in our relationships with other countries it's everything that made him famous as a businessman all the brashness all the shooting from the hip he's the idea that everybody thought that he was going to change when he got in the white house is hilarious the guy's 73 oh i actually you can laugh at me then because i thought well he got elected i was like okay well this is going to be interesting to see him you know kind of become

presidential and and then like whatever one day into it he was sending out a tweet about somebody i was like rosie o'donnell's a pig and he's yeah exactly so crazy but but he's but what that means is he's unpredictable right and so he's the guy in the bar that you look at and you're like well i'm just gonna give that guy a little extra clearance because he looks like he's crazy right so i think that might be what he either thinks he's doing yeah or or not but here's the interesting thing about this okay you know i i don't want to quote numbers on these things because i'm not sure what they are right now But I got a factory in maine. We make clothes. We make jeans. We make jujitsu geese All right, all made in america from the cotton. It's grown in america. It's woven. We weave it in our factory

We're doing everything here Now there's things like labor labor is more expensive in america because we pay our workers because they're they're awesome And and so it costs a little bit more to build the product if you have a chinese company that can make a jujitsu gi and they have they're paying their workers a dollar a day literally and then they can ship that gi over here well then they can beat us on the price now their quality is not as good but they can beat us on the price and someone goes okay well i can pay you know 70 bucks for this chinese gi or 100 bucks for this american gi okay i'm gonna buy the chinese one at 70 bucks so and this actually this part happened again

the details i can't quite remember but they said hey we're not going to put a tariff on gis coming into america because they can't be made here because they can't be made here and guess what specific to specific wow it was like okay i can't be made they can't be made here and it was actually pretty true when was this i don't know i don't know again i'm i'm stepping out on a ledge here i'm gonna have my uh buddy pete come on this podcast for you he's been made here forever though no they haven't but they've been made in pakistan and china and there was one company that was making them down in brazil but we said no actually they they can't be made here forever, though. No, they haven't. They've been made in Pakistan and China. And there was one company that was making them down in Brazil. But we said, no, actually, they can be made here and we're making them here.

And they put a 7% tariff on geese from overseas. And so now that kind of equalizes the price. Ours is a little bit more expensive, but it's made in America and it's higher quality. So people say, okay, we'll buy them here. Are you the only company in America that actually makes them? The only company in America that is making geese. So all these companies that are American companies, they're buying them overseas. 100%.

Yep. Wow. I didn't know that. Yep. Yep. And what's your geek company? Just so everybody knows. It's called, it's Origin, OriginMaine.com.

OriginMaine.com. OriginMaine.com. And M-A-I-N-E. Yep. Maine, the state. I was talking to my business partner and I was like, I was in the airport and I go, hey man, how many people do you know that train jujitsu? And he's like, Oh no, you know, like 30. And I go, how many people do you know that, that have a pair of jeans? And he said, everybody. And I said, why don't we make jeans? So we started making jeans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good call because everybody has jeans. Cause I was in the airport and I'm looking around and it was whatever, 98 people out of 100 are wearing jeans because we're Americans.

And is there anything more American to make it an American company than jeans? Do you make jeans with stretch in them? Yep. Yeah? Yeah. That is the important question. Everything. That's everything.

Truly. It's like, otherwise, you're making them out of coal. I didn't know that was your company. I think one of the first podcasts I listened to from your show at the very end, you know, otherwise you're making them out of coal. I didn't know that was your company. I think one of the first podcasts I listened to from your show at the very end, you and Echo Charles were talking about Origin. You're like, I'm wearing Origin jeans and this and that about Origin. I was like, dang, they must be pretty good sponsors. What is that boot company that you're involved with? Origin.

We're making boots as well. Same thing as well. And this is the awesome thing about this is you're from new england well in that part of in maine used to be like the textile and clothing capital of the of america for sure they made boots they made bass they made they made all these things bass boots bass shoes they made all these textiles up in maine and when the trade war started, it all went away. It all went away in the 70s and the 80s. And they literally took those machines and shipped them overseas to India and Pakistan. And there was my buddy Pete, there was one loom. You know what a loom is? It's this big thing

that's got like 8 billion parts to it. He wanted to get a loom because he realized that the only way you could get material for a gi was to weave it yourself otherwise you had to buy it from china or pakistan so he goes up to lewiston maine there's a 500 000 square foot abandoned factory it has one lumen rusty hasn't been used in 30 years and he found he found this old timer that used to work on the looms him and his buddies they went and dragged this thing out of this factory they brought it into this little factory that he had built himself out in the middle of the woods and started taking apart this loom and reassembling it and started weaving weaving material and making geese now that was five years ago we we started working together we merged together three years ago he had whatever

four employees back there we have 60 now we're we're making stuff all the time but this is when i talk about building the economy that's what i'm talking about well and so these areas up in new england up in maine that used to be the the so productive well there's not there wasn't jobs up there and now it's like oh yeah we we got we got jobs and we're going to continue to build that company and just bring manufacturing back to america So these are things that I think help when I talk about the global economy, you know, who's going to want american jeans Made at origin in maine, you know who's going to want those people in china people in japan They're going to want these jeans because they're there's They've got soul Man They've got soul

They're real It's one of the best Commercials I've ever heard Lewiston, Maine That's where Muhammad Ali Knocked out Sonny Liston Yeah there you go

In the rematch Yeah yeah yeah That's a great place To start a company like that That's amazing I think that's Or as we talk about Overall trade policy

And where we've gone wrong You're saying You know what happened Back in the 70s and 80s You saw how You know these These trade these massive trade deals that were put in place, really the people who benefited most from them were the multinational corporations. The corporations, you are 100% right. And it was just those mom and pop, those small business owners and manufacturers who suffered the most. And that's where I think as we look at trade negotiations with China,

as we look at some of these trade deals with countries like India and others, that's where we've got to get back to. Rather than just making sure the largest corporations have a seat at the trade negotiations tables, we've got to have those small business voices, those small manufacturers, and make sure that our policy is actually helping empower and strengthen the backbone of our economy that has been before and that we need to bring it back to that helps improve the quality of life for the people who are working uh you know working in maine manufacturing your jeans and your geese and this is and and having such great pride in doing so knowing like hey man yeah this is made

in i've seen your packaging says we the, like what more powerful words are there? They're the first words of our constitution for a reason. That is what should be at the forefront of, of our, our policies of across, across the board and all these different issues. If the first interest is not we the people, as it has been for so long, then we see what goes wrong. And then the consequence, we the people suffer. So what's going on right now, the consequences of this issue, this trade war with China, where it's really hitting, you were saying, is there's people in America that are selling things to China? Yeah, well, I give you one.

I mean, you've heard a lot from like corn and soybean farmers in Iowa. That's a story that's been in the news a lot. We were at a farmer's market in, I think, yeah, I was in Des Moines recently. And we're kind of walking through and picking up some food and veggies and stuff like that. And we stopped at like an apple orchard that had a whole table with all these different beautiful, amazing apples. We started talking to the guy, him and his wife run this apple orchard. And he said, you know, the trade and tariff war with China has hit us really hard. I said, wow, that's surprising to me. Tell me more. And he talked about how I said, do you sell, do you export your apples to China? And he said, no, not at all. We sell our apples in Iowa and in the Midwest. And that's it, local and regional customers.

What happened was the apple farms in Washington state selling Honeycrisp apples that they do export to China. When this trade and tariff war started, they couldn't anymore. That market was completely blocked off to them. And so what they started doing was shipping their apples to the Midwest at a fraction of the price that the local Iowa apple farmer was able to charge to his clients, whether they're restaurants or supermarkets or whatever. And he lost tens of thousands of dollars just over the last year as a result. And this year, he said, is not looking very good as well. As long as this thing continues, it's going to have a disproportionate negative impact on his family farm, essentially. So, you know, there are the obvious kind of headline-grabbing impacts.

But then you look at the downstream. You look at, you know, a friend of mine has a small business that he does do business with China. He has things that are made in China. And there's a level of uncertainty. He doesn't know, like, how far ahead he can plan to purchase. How much should he plan to purchase? Are things going to get better? So you should just do a little bit now and then wait.

Or just the level of uncertainty and destabilization it's created, I think, has been the most negative impact on people here at home. There's some legitimate concerns, too, though, right? Like Huawei is a weird one. That one, I'm kind of a tech. There are legitimate concerns. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm kind of a tech dork, and I love looking at – one of the things that China does particularly well, particularly Huawei, is innovation with cell phone technology.

I mean, they make the most spectacular cameras. They were way ahead of the curve on a lot of different features. And they continue to do that. And they were selling them in America up to a point, and then that cut off. And it cut off with the first time I've ever heard national security concerns because of a cell phone company and it just makes you go whoa whoa is this real and it's real cloudy like you talk to people on the tech side and they said this doesn't make any sense but then you talk to people on the intelligence side and they said this it makes all the sense in the world like this is a

this is a shifty company that's inexorably tied to the chinese government there's no difference between the government and this company. They are moving. They have a long game. And this long game is provide backdoor access so that data can be stolen, have that built into systems. And they've caught them doing this before. So they're like, you've got a finger in the dam here, and this whole thing can come tumbling down if you don't stop this company. Yeah. you're in the dam here and this whole thing could come tumbling down if you don't stop this company yeah i i mean i i think some of those concerns are are very valid um when you're when you're

talking about huawei but i think also just uh the issue of building these backdoor entries into our technology is something that we are very concerned about both happening here at home this has been an issue that we've been dealing with in Congress, where because of provisions that were passed in the Patriot Act, there were loopholes that have been exploited by some of our tech companies, working with some of our intelligence agencies to build these back doors into their systems, into their programs, or into their hardware, very, in my opinion, concerned and careful of, and actually exercising the kind of oversight and accountability that we should have been doing, frankly, a long time ago. Tech is a really important conversation to have with you right now. You're in the middle of this lawsuit with Google. Yeah. Explain that. So the first debate that we had in this presidential

election, you know, we had hoped that I would do well going into it and that people would go and start their internet search and say, hey, who is Tulsi Gabbard? I've never heard of her before. And so we went and got, you know, the Google ads set up, got them approved. Everything was ready to rock and roll. I was the most googled candidate of the night as i have been for every debate that i've participated in the issue was during that first debate uh you know while that peak period was happening our google ad account was suspended by google with no explanation whatsoever no like hey you guys there was nothing like Hey you guys screwed up Fix this

And then we'll put Your account back in Hey Google dance Bill How are you Good to hear from y'all That is so sketchy It's so sketchy

And so You know our tech guys Are freaking out They're like man This is what we were waiting for And now you guys Took our account down Tell us what we gotta do

To get it back up And A We didn't hear back for a while Once we started hearing back, we heard back from different people with different answers, nothing clear cut to say, you did this wrong, fix this, we'll put your account back. Nothing.

And then all of a sudden, hours and hours had gone by and then our account was reinstated without any explanation about what happened. And this is bigger than just the the loss in opportunity that that my campaign had because this happened on that night during that peak period it's a bigger issue about the power that this corporation has in google in interfering essentially in fair elections and in what kind of information they are willing to put in front of people. Don't they own Boston Dynamics too?

Does Google own Boston Dynamics? I think they did and they sold it. Good move. Back like a year ago or something. Bring it. Jocko's ready for the real world war. I watch Black Mirror. I'm not in.

I'll tell you what, you get extra double bonus credit from me right now, Tulsi, because that right there is so crazy. And for you to be like, yeah, it's bad for me, but it's also bad for the American people. I would have been stuck at bad for me if that were you. That is gnarly. It is. It's so gnarly that they did that. And it's so transparent.

And very few people talked about it and very few people know about it. Exactly. That's what was so stunning about it. It's like there's people pulling strings. Who? Why? Undefined and so stunning about it. It's like there's people pulling strings. Who? Why? Undefined and no investigation into it. Until you put out this lawsuit, there's really no way to find out. Facebook, the inordinate amount of power that they have to, as we sit and type in a Google

search for whatever, or what's popping up on our Facebook feed, they control that. I think that we have a real issue in this country with advertising in those things, in Google and Facebook, a real issue that it's never really been fully discussed, because those things just sort of came up out of nowhere. We had social networks, we had myspace and we had you know we didn't think anything of it and then all of a sudden not only they're here but they have this extraordinary amount of influence yeah they have algorithms so it's not just they're putting out what people put out they have algorithms that figure out what you're into and then show you that so if you're just really in a conflict which most people are they're just showing you conflict all day long.

And it's getting everybody riled up. So it's having a direct effect, whether it's planned and coordinated or not. It's having a direct effect on discourse in this country. And I think it's one of the reasons why what you were talking about before, where you're either with us or you're against us. And it's never been more hard line than it has been right now. And all of this is because of advertising money and advertising what like what are you even selling all you're doing you're just a portal to connect people with each other and through that you're gaining an insane

amount of influence and an extraordinary amount of money is being generated and we never agreed to it right it's just sort of we just look down we saw the ad oh what are they selling oh yeah okay it looks like a nice watch and then we just all of us and then everybody's just getting bought and sold and it's happening to a point now where that is one of the main town halls one of the main places where people discuss ideas in the world right is these social media networks and they're not getting smaller. They're only getting bigger. So they keep growing and they keep stacking up.

And whether it's Google or Facebook or Twitter, any of these, the amount of influence they have is insane. And they're just people. They're just people. These are just regular folks. Like, I know Jack Dorsey. He's a nice guy. He's just a regular fucking person. The fact that this guy has so much power this company has so much power that any of

these companies have so much power we are not ready for this and this is happening right under our noses and it's happening so quickly and then when something like your google situation happens where it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa not only are you profiting but now you're fucking pulling strings you're showing us you're pulling strings yep and everybody's like what's going on nothing whatever they're they're interfering with democracy yep in this weird sort of semi-legal way you know like you could just say they violated policy like what policy what policy did you violate did they just cancel your ad they they still have not told us that. That's insane. The policy you violated was being a viable candidate for president of the United States of America. It has to be.

It has to be. Not only a viable candidate, but one that's saying, hey, you guys are too fucking big. I'm going to break up these monopolies and provide the kinds of oversight and accountability that will protect the consumer, that will protect the American people, protect fair and honest discourse, protect freedom of speech. That's the issue. And frankly, that's a difference between me and somebody like Mayor Pete, for example. Other candidates, and he's not the only one, but other candidates who refuse to take a strong position in recognizing the threat to our public discourse and our democracy that these tech giants have really within the hands of just a few people. You have, I think this is just broke in the news recently, Mark Zuckerberg, who, you know, people were taught he's like wanted to run for president not that long ago and was seriously considering it. And he's trying to start his own cryptocurrency, wants to have his own currency that he controls.

The amount of power this guy has and that he wants to continue to grow is so dangerous. He decided not to run for president, but he and his wife started emailing Mayor mayor pete's campaign manager saying hey here's some guys we think you should hire for your campaign and so they hired two of zuckerberg's facebook guys who are now working for mayor pete's campaign and so they're going to have a seat at the table should this guy get elected which means facebook's going to have a seat at the table never mind if he gets elected when he's got two people that are inside track at facebook yep that show up there. I don't know if you've ever done anything with Facebook as far as advertising, but like

people that understand how all that stuff works. I've talked to him before. It's a whole science behind it. So now that they're in there, he should get a big bump across the board. Yeah. I don't know Mark Zuckerberg, but I don't like the way he drinks water. He takes those little sips when he's being grilled have you ever seen that they're the weirdest little sips of water I don't I don't trust a person man woman or non-binary

creature that takes sips of water like that that is just not the way you drink water well you drink water is like I'm thirsty I'm gonna have some water that's how you show me how he did it I'll show you We'll play the video It's like this He's like He puts this glass Up to his mouth

And like touches The lips of the water It's like a robot Here we go Watch this Look at this He's a robot Pretending to drink

Watch this What the fuck Is happening here What is happening here The water didn't move I never noticed this before It barely moved It barely like

slid i love that jamie was able to find that so fast a master master so so tulsi let me ask you this from a strategic perspective all right do you feel like these moves like you coming out strong against google facebook saying that you could break up those types of monopolies strategically are you thinking right now well maybe that wasn't the best call because you could have not been so strong against them and played along with them a little bit. Maybe they look at you and go through the list that Joe went through earlier, which is you're a veteran, you're a woman, you're a woman of color, you're from Hawaii, you've got this experience.

Congresswoman. Yeah, congresswoman. You've got all this stuff. They could look at you and go, wow, yeah, she's good. We can get her on our side. And then maybe, you know, increase your chances of getting elected. Then you get elected. Then you go, okay, you know what?

I've thought about this. And guess what? We're not doing it that way. And I'm going to break you guys up. Do you think strategically or is that just the type of person you are is like, you know what? I'm just going to tell the truth from the get-go. Is that basically what we're doing? I'm going to tell the truth and call it straight no matter what.

And, and, uh, you know, no matter who, who I'm dealing with, because, uh,

a, that's who I am. And B, people are sick and tired of politicians who play this game and do this political dance as they're trying to get people elected and be like, okay, well, if I just say this or if I just kind of cozy up to these people or these interests, they can help me get elected. And then when I win, then I'm going to do the right thing. Well, guess what? When you win, all of you, okay, you've got to win the next reelection.

That means I need more money from Wall Street. I need more money from Google. I need more money from these guys, so I can't say anything to piss them off just yet. I'm going to wait until I get reelected. Then that's when I'm really going to start to do the right thing. And I think people across party lines are sick and tired of the same old politicians who say one thing and do another and instead are looking for real leadership. It just seems like there's a tipping point that we will have to reach before that actually happens. I don't know if we're there yet. It's kind of like, you know, when I was on your podcast for the first time, Joe, and you told me to start a podcast.

At that time, I don't know if you know this or not, it was 2015. The stats were that 17% of America were listening to podcasts. And now it's something like 78 in four years just totally different but when you talk about tulsi having a podcast which you absolutely should and by the way all you need to do is go and do a question and answer town hall with people have somebody record it splice it up to the good stuff and put that out 20 minutes long people start to learn how you are yes but my my point is that that change happened and right now you know joe rogan has like the most powerful voice in media in in a very short period of time but five years ago he didn't you

know five years ago it'd be like oh you want to sell a book you better go on the big network nowadays oh you want to sell a book you try and get on joe rogan and he can peddle some book for you or get your product out there or or your campaign. We're like at that tipping point politically, it seems right now. And yeah, just what is it going to take to push people over the edge? That's the question. I think that what we saw happen in 2016, I think, pointed to that tipping point. And I believe that we are here because these are conversations that we're having in town hall meetings in different parts of the country. Again, we're building this coalition of Americans who are most interested in putting our country first, who are willing to disagree without being disagreeable, but understand we got to treat each other with respect and stand

united around the principles and freedoms that bring us together, focusing on we, the people, putting the interests of the people first and foremost. And I would say that the vast majority of Americans have put up with the same old, same old for so long and are sick and tired of this pay-to-play culture in Washington, of the political corruption that exists, of the, you know, big money, special interests who influence the decisions that leaders are making that benefit them instead of the people that they're looking for a leader that says what they mean and mean what they say, and who will back that up with action. I think that's where we're seeing support growing for my campaign. The more people hear about who I am, the background and experience that I bring to this job,

and that I am willing to take a stand to speak the truth for the people, even against some of the most powerful interests. Honestly, our biggest challenge is getting in front of people, because most people in the country still don't know who I am. Or you have people who maybe have heard about me, but they've gotten the corporate media narrative. But they're Tulsi curious. They're Tulsi curious. And really, that's a good way to put it. So that's really where our effort is focused now. New Hampshire is voting in less than 100 days. And so, you know, we're asking for support from people to make contribution to my campaign.

Tulsi2020.com. Literally getting this support will make the difference for us to be able to bypass this corporate media narrative and actually communicate directly to voters, directly to people. No one better than you knows that these tech companies have this extraordinary amount of power and that it's just no one anticipated it. It came out of nowhere. What do you think could be done to ensure that people have a voice and that this voice is not being manipulated because of financial interests or political interests and this is where we're at today that this these companies like it or not they don't have to abide by the first amendment that's not what they do they can

decide we're going to ban you based on your political leanings based i mean there's a famous case out of canada where a woman was having an she's a you know what a turf is it's a trans exclusionary radical feminist that's never heard that radical feminists who don't believe that transgender women should be involved in women's issues and that they shouldn't be able to vote on women's issues and she was in an argument on twitter her name is megan murphy and she said uh a man is never a woman twitter told her you got to take that down so she's a bit feisty she took it down took a screenshot put it back up with the screenshot she's like okay i took it down there it is again though and then banned her for life wow for life so it's something like that where you can't even have opinions on things that are

controversial without being removed from the discourse. We have a real problem with that. Yeah. That's a giant problem. This is just one social thing. It's a hot button issue right now. And whether or not it'll still, whether it's just a fad or it'll go away or it'll be normalized, we don't know. But the fact that you don't have the First Amendment protecting people from a legitimate opinion that's actually based on, you know, whether

you like it or not, biological science. This is a very, we're in a very strange time that a company, and I just use this as an example because you're talking about something where it's biologically clear that she's correct. Whether or not you socially think that people should be treated

how they want to be treated and use the pronouns they want, I agree with that. Yeah. But you're talking about someone who's saying something that's biologically correct. So we have a problem. We're at a fork in the road and we have to figure out how the hell this gets handled because if just social trends like this can dictate whether or not a person is removed from the conversation forever, we've got a giant-

And there's no other option. Yes. There's no other alternative platform that you can participate in. And that's just one example of the thousands and thousands of examples of people that are removed from conversations based on their political leanings,

their ideologies. And meanwhile, there's just unlimited hardcore pornography on Twitter, which is perfectly okay. But we can't say that about whatever that situation is, which I don't really understand. It's pretty good. And OJ Simpson as well.

OJ Simpson's on Twitter. It's just hilarious as well. And also, I think that kind of thing is the kind of thing that gets a backlash from moderate people. A moderate person sitting in Nebraska is like, well, who am I voting for? Well, these people are, people are against this whole idea. Okay, looks like Trump is on my side. Here we go.

100%. And this idea that you can deplatform people and somehow or another it weakens the position that you don't agree with, it's the opposite. The opposite happens. You pump up the only hope that they have of getting their side of the story out there. Their side of the story out there their side of

the story is going to be represented by trump and trump supporters and i don't know what the president can or can't do to sort of enforce some sort of i mean we obviously have a new situation when it comes to communication in this country with social media and tech companies yes it's very new and it's really it's it's only the last couple of decades it's even been a thing and now it's one of the biggest things when in terms of discourse and how people communicate and how people form opinions about things that's a tremendous influence on our culture yeah and the fact that this isn't protected by the first amendment we have a very strange new force in our country when it comes to discourse and i think laws need to be formed that we need to have some

sort of parameters that you mean there's laws on virtually everything and virtually everything that has massive influence over the way it affects our country and that's one where there isn't really they're they're independent companies and they're they're not they're they can do whatever they want yeah essentially yeah i mean no it's it's limitless i think i i agree with you i think this is i agree with you both with regards to the tech companies but also this bigger um kind of culture war that's happening in our country this cancel culture that exists that um i think it i mean it does it it threatens the kind of of freedom of speech and

and discourse that i think we've celebrated in this country for so long where this is the country yeah where you can stand up and say what you believe no matter how terrible i may think it is or how strongly i may disagree with it you know people like us are willing to lay our life down for your right to do that. I think that's what is at risk here with this cancel culture that's having such a chilling effect where people are maybe afraid to say something that may be seen as controversial or offensive to some because they will get canceled. And in some cases, you've seen how people's, especially if you're a public figure,

your whole career can be just like gone, finished. Cancel culture is real simple. Everyone now has a rock and there's a big window. Someone throws a rock at that window and you're like, well, I'll fucking throw my rock too. And that's what happens. People just, whether or not they have a strong opinion on something or not, they just decide that's the spot we're throwing the rocks. And they just chuck the rocks. And then they feel like they have some sort of a, you know a politician gets taken down they're like look i helped look at my twitter

feed my twitter feed's filled with calling that guy a piece of shit i was the first one yeah first one that did it i think that that um you know you mentioned uh what does it happen the debate uh kamala harris was she she like launched a petition or publicly was calling for uh twitter to delete president trump's account yeah and she really really made a big deal out of this did a whole media tour like all this called out elizabeth warren all this stuff i was asked about it uh by a reporter shortly after she had made this announcement i had i had not even heard of it like oh what do you think about kamala harris calling on twitter to cancel trump's twitter account. I said, well, you know, I disagree with not everything,

but a lot of what Trump says, but freedom of speech. Freedom of speech. So, no, I completely disagree with her. And the response from her campaign spokesperson, no kidding. Tulsi Gabbard echoes Fox News talking points. Freedom of Fox News is saying, oh, well, what about freedom of speech? By the way, Richard Spencer loves her.

But that's like, this is where we're at. Like just saying, hey, freedom of speech. Whether you're the president of the United States or you're the guy sweeping the floor in the White House, I will stand up and fight for your freedom of speech. I may disagree, and I may disagree publicly and strongly, but we've got to draw the line here for freedom of speech and being able to have this dialogue and discourse where we can. And I think that we should debate strongly and maybe passionately about some

of these issues, not seeing that as a bad thing. That's been the strength of our country. It'll be interesting, you know, from a free market perspective, if at some point somebody comes out with a social media platform that is really, truly free speech. Yeah, they have done that. They have done that, but they get taken over by trolls. There's ThinkSpot getting run around right now. Gab.

Gab's one. Yeah, it'll just be, yeah. But people have told me Tech friends of mine That say They say that Immediately turns into What is it

4chan and 8chan It just immediately Goes into the gutter It's an open sewer I mean it's just like Have you ever seen Those pipes that pump Sewage into the ocean

Yeah Like it's just green And disgusting That's I mean and it's not The fault of the Social media companies The companies like Gab They're committed to free speech And what they're trying to do Is let it Just let it all work It's just green and disgusting. And it's not the fault of the social media companies.

The companies like Gab, they're committed to free speech. And what they're trying to do is just let it all work itself out and abide by the Constitution. Don't dox anybody. Don't give up anybody's address. Don't threaten anybody or do any harm. And just talk crazy and do it anonymously. And that's what a lot of people are doing. But it's very difficult for even the people that felt like they were deplatformed or their voice wasn't being able to be heard. They don't want to join in to this crazy shit because of 4chan and all those savages.

They're just trying to post pictures of their dinner, right? Exactly. They can't even get it. It's so nuts. I mean, look, even posting pictures of your dinner, I mean, you do that on Instagram, and if it's a dead deer or something like that, you're risking getting your picture taken down. It's the amount of power that's being exhibited by these social media companies. Again, no one anticipated this.

What could be done? What do you think could be done? Like, say, you become president. What would you do? So I think there's two things here. We've talked about the freedom of speech, the control over information. I think part and parcel to that that we didn't really talk much about is how much of our private information these tech companies have

and what they're doing with it, maybe without us even knowing about it, how that's helping to drive up their profits. So I think it's both of those components we've got to be concerned about. I think number one is we look at our antitrust laws that exist in this country for the protection of the consumer against any giant monopoly from coming in and being in a position to abuse their power and apply those laws to these tech giants. I think the fact that Facebook owns, obviously Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp, I don't think that, I think that is the definition of a monopoly across platforms that many of us

use because there isn't really a legitimate alternative option available to us. So I think that's the first thing and looking at breaking up these monopolies. I think Facebook's co-founder, Chris Hayes, I think is his name. He wrote, I think, a very compelling argument against ensure that our freedom of speech and our freedom to access information is not impeded by these tech giants, whether it's for their own profits or to pursue their own political interests. They face, there's people inside of Twitter that are like Jack Dorsey believes, at least according to what he's told me, that Twitter should be like a town hall where everyone should be able to have access.

But he faces resistance that inside the actual company that he's the CEO of. That there's so many people that don't think that that's the way it should be. And they think that they have a political or a social obligation to limit certain voices because those voices radicalize young people. Like, what do you say to those people? radicalize young people. Like, what do you say to those people? I mean, without knowing examples of what they're citing, here's the thing is, is what they may view as radicalizing young people, because of the ideology that they as individuals may hold on to, may be seen in the opposite way by people who hold a different political ideology.

You know, I think this is something that we're seeing happening offline as well, you know, whether it's in college campuses or in other places where both sides view the other side as indoctrinating young people or indoctrinating people with their ideology. Look at Fox News and MSNBC. their ideology. Look at Fox News and MSNBC. They are both pushing opposing narratives on news happenings of the day or whatever's happening in Washington. You watch the exact same thing happen,

the killing of Baghdadi. You saw a very different bias in the news that was being presented by these stories. Did you see the Washington Post explain, tell people what they said. They, they put a story up that said, I forget what the quote was,

but they called him like a religious scholar. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's what they called him. What's that word? Astute. What is that word?

Astute? No, religious scholar. I forget what word they use to describe him but just try to find out what this i think it's a stir religious scholar i was like what that guy yeah yeah like how can you that's just insanity yeah but how does that offensive man but how does that get through How does I mean how does someone In the Washington Post

Go okay I like what you did there Yeah Print that You can't even fathom Yeah what's that guy Head of ISIS Yeah exactly

Here it is Austere How do you say that word Austere Austere I never say that word I just read it Yeah

That was the first time In my whole life 52 years of age I've said it out loud Religious scholar At helm of Islamic state Dies at 48 What in the fuck it yeah that's the first time in my whole life 52 years of age i've said it out loud religious scholar at helm of its islamic state dies at 48 what in the fuck wow religious scholar well at least when you zoom in on his eyes there you can tell he's completely insane yeah yeah zoom in on that jamie let me get a zoom what yeah whoa jesus christ yeah he got a hold of trump pseudofed look at him

that title yeah it's so bananas yeah it is it's crazy that's as tulsi just pointed out that's someone driving a narrative right yeah that's someone driving a narrative because somebody that doesn't understand this that's their first glimpse of of this reality and their glimpse of this reality is that this guy was an austere religious leader. What is the actual definition of austere? Let's pull that up, because I want to find out how hilarious this really is, because I think it's really hilarious. Which, by the way, as Jamie's doing that, Washington Post owned by, oh, here we go. Severe or strict in manner, attitude, or appearance, an austere man with a rigidly puritanical outlook.

Too nice. This guy was a Puritan as far as they're concerned. Yeah, Puritan piece of shit. Having an extremely plain and simple style or appearance, unadorned. Okay, he's dressed like a genie. He's living in a hole in the ground and he's running isis you you people are out of your mind offensive it's so strange i mean there's real monsters in this world and when you add a bunch of words to a description of a real monster that make that person seem

like they're a contributor to culture. And that's what it seems. Religious scholar. Oh, he's a religious scholar. Must be a good guy. He's helping people out with religion. Just so happened to be a leader of ISIS. Meanwhile, he's sawing people's heads off. That's right.

He's throwing gay people off the top of buildings. Right. Because they don't agree with his quote-unquote religious scholarly beliefs. Such a strange choice, the fact that that's a mainstream publication a huge newspaper and that that somehow or another slipped through the the net like what the headline like that front page that's not slipping through the net you know what i mean it's not that's that's planned but to someone like you who's actually had to go over there and risk your life to fight guys like that, how sick does that make you to just read that? It's awful for a couple reasons.

Obviously, it's awful for the kind of straightforward reason that you realize that people are learning the wrong thing. They're going to understand this in the wrong way. That's one part of it. But the other part of it is that there's someone that wrote that headline yeah there's someone that wrote someone that has a position of influence in the world that wrote that headline and said yeah this guy's an austere religious leader scholar there's a guy i forget his name he's uh he's a famous muslim uh commentator who's online but he attacked that so viciously and talked about what a piece of garbage that guy

actually was and how awful he is and how this goes against everything that a modern Muslim feels and thinks and that this person represent and to say a religious scholar so deeply offensive and that's fantastic i wish i

could remember that guy's name who did it met medhi m-e-d-h-i but this is the washington post i mean this isn't like someone's blog on on tinder or something or whatever wherever you have blogs these days no it's this is a huge mainstream publication and it just the the distorting of narratives is such a strange factor in today's culture that this we don't have a walter cronkite giving us the straightforward news every day on the air with no lean or slant and just give you the facts. We don't have that We don't have what we thought of as you know, a top-level newspaper from 1980 or whatever Whether we're doing real journalism trying to break down the story in a way that you could understand while you're drinking your coffee Trying to hey is the world blowing up? Let me see what's going on here

Yeah, my dad pointed out to me, you know, you were talking about there's nothing that unifies us anymore and you're like hey everyone changed jiu-jitsu i obviously agree with that but what my dad was telling me that in the 60s in the 70s there was one unifying thing that everybody did which is watch walter cronkite on the news and so when you showed up to work the next day everyone had heard the same narrative and they and they could have disagreed on it but they all had kind of the same basic fundamental facts and so now we actually have people going home and i'm going to jump into my bubble over here and watch fox news and you're going to get jumped into your bubble over there and watch msnbc and like how do you even communicate with each other? Yeah. Yeah. We don't, we have so many choices, but so few paths. I was, I was, I was, I caught some, um, Rachel Maddow one time and I'd never watched her before. So I was like, okay, I'm going to watch

her. And I was like, wow, just completely different, completely different than what I would see on Fox news, completely different. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, this is hard to, I would see on Fox News, completely different. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, this is hard to imagine. And you've seen the clips of when Trump won, of all the compilation of everyone's reaction, all the liberal reaction. They were on the news. Yes. I mean, does MSNBC, they don't claim to be nonpartisan at all, do they?

Or news, for that matter? I think they don't have to. It's just they are MSNBC. They don't have to have a directive. They just say, everyone knows. It's like there's an understanding when you're going there. You're either going to hate view, like you're either a Republican who's going there

to see what these silly liberals are up to, or you're one of the converted, and she's preaching to the choir. I think one interesting proof point of this is, I think a poll came out yesterday on where the American people stand on impeachment, and something like 75-80% of Fox viewers oppose impeachment, and 75-80% of MSNBC viewers support impeachment. And they're covering the very same impeachment inquiry and hearings and you know witness testimony and and all of that

i don't think people even understand what that all means and whether or not it even has a chance of happening you know based on i don't think i don't think people do either they don't they just it seems like some fun talking point some gotcha thing where they've got them you know ukraine got them we got them we got them, you know, Ukraine got him. We got him. We got him this time. Stormy Daniels didn't stick, but this one,

this one's going to sink. Yeah. Hey, you know, you think to yourself, if Stormy Daniels didn't stick, I mean, come on,

what else are you going to do? He might as well, he just might as well have backed off and just try and work with the guy at that point. I would've been like, okay, you know what? He's Teflon.

We just need to move on, move forward. There's a hilarious girl. I don't know who she is. Did I send you that video where the girl is getting people to get pumped up about impeachment? And she's got like rainbow colored hair and she looks like a liberal. I think she even has one of those pink kitty cat hats on and she gets them. She's like pro impeachment.

They're like, yeah, impeach him, fucking impeachment. She goes, yay, President Pence. Yay. And they're like, what? Yeah. She's like pro-impeachment. They're like, yeah, impeach him, fucking impeach him. And she goes, yay, President Pence, yay. And they're like, what? And she's like, President Pence. So if he gets impeached, then we get President Pence. And they're like, hmm. And she's like, maybe we should just let this play out. Hold what you've got.

Probably just let him finish his term. But it is hilarious. It's hilarious because it's a sport. It's basically replacing. It's a sport for people who don't like football. It's like their idea of who's winning or losing this game is very personal, and they feel like their team got killed in 2016, and they're going to come back and kick ass in 2020. And that's what's going on.

And everything they can get at them. Well, not only that. I mean, it's that, but then you've got some folks who some some democrat leaders in in washington who are saying well you know we need to get rid of trump through impeachment to protect ourselves from possibly losing the election in 2020 which i think is just like a an open ed you know admittal of well we don't think that we can actually beat him at the ballot box. So we're trying to use this political maneuver in order to get rid of him, even though it's highly unlikely that even if the House does vote to impeach, which isn't fully clear at this point,

but even if that were to happen, the Senate is not going to convince 20. It's highly unlikely the Senate's going to convince 20 Republicans to're done with the leadership and all that Trump brought to office and we're choosing to go in a new direction. Have you thought about what kind of nickname he'll have for you? Because you know he's going to come up with a nickname. Yeah. Did you see how they played you on Saturday Night Live? I did. I went on there because I said, oh, I've got to see what they did to her.

And I was really curious about what they were going to do, how they were going to make you out. And they made you out to be like this super evil person. I got a kick out of it. Why would they do? You didn't see it? No. Oh, it's funny. It's a super short clip.

But basically, they're like, there is a villain amongst all of these candidates. And that villain is Tulsi Gabbard. Oh, God. Who strikes fear into the heart of every other person up here. Something like that. Like a Despicable Me type cartoon villain? They portrayed me as like a Cruella de Vil. Yeah.

The thing is, I was thinking as it was playing out, they don't show you for a while. And I go, they're not even going to put her in here. I was like, they're not even going to put her in here. Clinton got to her and said, I don't want this girl to get any airtime at all. Lock her down. It's just so interesting to me that it's so clear that you're a vibrant candidate, but that they don't want to get behind you. But yet they do want to get behind Joe Biden who can barely get through a sentence.

That poor guy is falling apart. Someone needs to give that guy growth hormones, steroids, kale shakes, fat steaks. Like, bro, you need to take some time off. We need to get you in a hyperbaric chamber. You don't have any energy. Yeah, especially because Donald Trump has energy. And he goes on stage for an hour and a half at a rally with no teleprompter.

With 30,000 people there screaming. No drink. No bathroom break. He's just up there going. He's like an animal up there. And it fuels him. And then meanwhile, you're looking at Biden. And you're like, how is this even going to work out?

His teeth are literally falling out in the middle of the campaign. He's falling asleep. He's getting people's falling asleep. It's horrible. He's getting people's names wrong. Do they want to win or don't they? They do. That is the question. But they don't want to win with someone they can't control.

Exactly. You know, it's like the first UFC. Do you know they had Hoyce fight in the first UFC because they couldn't control Hickson? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Hickson's the family champion. But Hickson was like, Hickson's going to do whatever the fuck Hickson wants to do. And they had no control that they have. So Horian was like, well, if Hoyce loses, then we'll go with Hickson. For hickson's gonna do whatever the fuck hickson wants to do and they had no control that i have so horian was like well if hoist loses then we'll go with hickson for now let's get hoist in there because he couldn't control hickson yeah yeah that's

literally what they're afraid of if you wanted to show what jujitsu could do everyone on earth that knew jujitsu knew hickson gracie was the baddest man on the planet how do you navigate this tulsi it seems like the it seems OK, if you want to get the Democratic nomination, you've got to be pretty far to the left. Right. But if you want to actually win the presidency, then you've got to be more moderate. So that seems like a tough littlecalled wisdom that just isn't true anymore. I think this is what, you know, you hear a lot of the political pundits talking who's far left, who's centrist, moderate, who is anti-establishment. And that, you know, I don't fit into any one of those boxes because I look at every issue based on its merits. I'll look at the substance of the issue, look at the arguments for and against and go with the approach that I think actually… This is a radical idea right here. It is. It is. Exactly.

It's radical to be reasonable. Exactly. And that's the thing. Like these people, they're like, like oh my god we can't figure her out because she doesn't have any of these labels um but but that is where the vast majority of the american people are you have these these extremes on the fringes who are all about these uh you know purity tests where you are either with me on every single issue or you're done you're finished you you're unacceptable. But the vast majority of Americans, again, they're looking at what is real leadership, real leadership,

whether you're talking about the guy who's working in the manufacturing warehouse, you're talking about a blue collar worker, you're looking at, okay, here's the issues that keep most people up at night. You want to make sure that if your kid is sick, they're going to be able to get the healthcare they need. You want to make sure that if your kid is sick, that you're going to be, they're going to be able to get the health care they need. You want to make sure you have a roof over your family's head. There are basic things. Approaching them in a way

that is pragmatical, pragmatic, common sense, and solutions oriented is not only the right thing to do. I think it's the thing that makes it so you don't have to say, well, in the primary, I'm only going to talk to Democrats and the most radical and extreme among them. And then I'm totally going to flip the script and then speak to the whole country after

I win the primary election. That's ridiculous. This is why, you know, I'll go on Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, and I'm delivering the exact same message to people. And we're building and growing support in people who watch those three different channels, who are actually listening like, hey, like she makes sense. Like she's not crazy. She's not spouting some party talking point. She's not, you know, going down a radical path just to appeal to the Twitter wins that are blowing one way or the other. It's just about, hey, let's do what's best. Let's do what's best for the people and for the country. I'm stunned by the blowback too, for you going on Fox News,

that people are actually upset that they do not think that you should grace the Fox News screens, that you're doing a disservice to your party. Yeah. Which is interesting. Well, I get the same stuff because I go on Fox News and why do I go on Fox News? Fox News invites me on to Fox News.

You know who's never invited me on? Never? MSNBC. MSNBC. And again, as you pointed out earlier, like it's pretty hard

to pin me down politically and I'm not one to sit there and try and make radical statements to try and get more, you know, likes on a Twitter thing. You don't do that? Yeah, I don't. It's like, oh, make radical statements to try and get more, you know, likes on a Twitter thing. You don't do that.

Yeah, I don't. It's like, Oh, I'm here to try to make some points about the way, you know, most of what I talk about is, is about leadership.

You know, it's like, Oh, because of what we're doing as human beings is we're leading other people, whether it's just your family or whether it's your business or whatever, or it's troops out in the field. So yeah, it's weird that you would get attacked for going on fox news

when actually anybody that looks at that from a strategic view would think oh she's actually accepted by by this this right wing um news organization maybe she could get some other you know moderate conservative votes maybe we should think about bringing her in as a candidate because she could win well not only that what's wrong with going on stage or going on camera with someone that you oppose someone you disagree with and having a dialogue about what you disagree with right that's the weird thing about this cancel culture this strange time we're living and you're not even supposed to communicate with people about ideas that you disagree on yeah like i saw people criticizing you for being on tucker carlson show in particular yeah and that's i was gonna say you know yeah it's one thing to say okay you're gonna go on fox news and you know tussle with sean hannity about things you disagree on but i think what

they see is more dangerous is finding areas where you actually do agree right and that's you know on tucker carlson um i have a platform to be able to speak to millions of people across the country where you actually do agree. Right, right. And that's, you know, on Tucker Carlson. I have a platform to be able to speak to millions of people across the country about the kind of leadership that I bring in the area of foreign policy, what I would do here in this country, what I would do there in that country if I were president today. And I have the opportunity to deliver that message directly to people's living rooms or offices or wherever they are.

And, you know, I think in some of these areas, Tucker and I will disagree on a whole host of things. But on some of these issues of foreign policy, he'll say, yeah, I agree with you. And I think when you look at this cancel culture, you know, I was attacked on the debate stage for going on Fox News. How do you think you're going to lead this country, all Americans, if you're completely not only shutting out and not willing to talk to half the country that watches Fox News, but you're in fact disrespecting and dismissing them just because they may disagree with you, they watch a different news channel than you do.

I think that's the bigger issue here is, yeah, you know, there's a political consequence. You're never going to be able to have a dialogue with what to speak of win support from people who you treat like garbage, who you disrespect, you call names, who you call deplorables. call names who you call deplorables but how do you expect to lead as the president of every single american in this country when you've thrown half of them away and saying you know what i actually don't care about you i only care about people who i agree with that's that's to me the the um the worst part about all of this i couldn't agree more does uh that deplorable thing yeah was a big hit and then you also remember when mitt romney said hey there's 47 of the country that there's no way of voting for him

so we just need to forget about him yeah exactly those two those two things completely divided and sent people to vote for the opposing candidate like you're gonna call me deplorable oh really watch this i'm voting for or you're gonna ignore me or you're just gonna dismiss me or my vote doesn't matter i think also it speaks to what both people have that it's distasteful that they're calculated and one of the things that i do appreciate you about you is that i think you're not i think the way you view things is you would far rather speak your mind and be truthful and have real legitimate opinions on things rather than have some weird slimy sort of shifty take that's been created by a bunch of people that think that this is going to

be the right thing that you could say that's going to in you know and get you a little closer in the polls and move you this way and move the needle that way that that shifty style of politics i really feel is dead i just i just don't think you can do it that way anymore i think people because of the open access to information that people have today and the the way that people can communicate and and find out information i just don't think we want to buy that shifty politician talk anymore i think we're done with it i think we realize it's antiquated. It's, it's never served us.

It sucks. And it just, it just gives you the same thing. Every time you get someone who gets into office and they do completely different things than what they said they were going to do before they got in. Yeah. That's even,

you know, I thought about, Oh, the people are, they heard deplorables, they heard 47% and that's bad, but yeah, you're right.

What it really made people think is, Oh, behind people are, they heard deplorables, they heard 47%, and that's bad. But yeah, you're right. What it really made people think is, oh, behind the scenes, you're totally different than you are when you're standing on stage. Yeah, you're shifty. I know what you're like, and I'm not voting for you. Yeah, you're manipulative. You're following this, you know, you're following whether it's polls or you're following these groups that are going out and trying to figure out which way the tide is turning on social media.

I mean, there's so many groups now and so many companies that are just looking at data online and opinions, and then they give this data to people that are trying to influence folks, and they lean one way or another, and they try to manipulate their message in order to have a more favorable rating. And it's so slimy. And it's also the kind of hypocrisy of this whole thing is these are people who are asking to lead the most powerful nation in the world. And yet they are not leaders at all. They're followers. They are not leaders at all.

They're followers. Have you given any consideration to the fact that this is basically an impossible job? That everybody who gets in there ages 150 years, except Trump. He doesn't seem to age at all. He looks great. I mean, he looked like shit when he got in, but he looks exactly the same now. I mean, you would think he looked like a skeleton by now. He'd be a corpse.

But no, looks like it's not even. He eats a lot of fast food, I hear. He's rolling off his back, whatever it is. There's a lesson to be learned. He really should give a class on not giving a fuck and how it affects you personally. He's got a master's degree in that, without a doubt. You could say you don't give a fuck, but that's when the whole world is angry at you. Half the world, maybe more like half the world maybe more than half the world because it's half of america and then who knows what percentage of the rest of

the world is upset at you not a lot of supporters internationally right yeah and that guy's like shakes it off like a duck it just keeps it just keeps moving but have you given any consideration to that this is a job that almost no one really nails? No one gets out after four years or eight years and is like, boom, fucking nailed it. No one. No one nails it. You're just creating all these visual images in my mind. But you know what I mean?

Nobody gets out. They're like, Obama, you did it, bro. There's half the people are going to hate you no matter what. And there's a legit argument that it's a ridiculous position, that to have one alpha chimp dominate the entire Klan in 2019 when there's 320 million of us, it seems insane. It doesn't seem like you really can pay attention to everything, whether it's the economy or the environment or foreign policy or all the social issues. so much going on how can one person really have that job

um so the first thing i'll say is that if if you're going into this um to be popular or to have everybody love you then you should not be president at all that's why i'm never going to be president well there you go you can come over and have dinner with me in the white house when we get there i'm excited um so i think i think that's the most important thing that's the problem that we see in a lot of our politics is and and what we're seeing on twitter is people are are putting stuff out for what they think will get the most likes or will get the most retweets, rather than putting out what they believe in or what's true or what's actually really, really important. So I think that's the first thing about how I would govern and lead as president about continuing what I've always done,

which is actually just focusing on, hey, let's do the best job we can do to deliver the best result for the American people. None of us are perfect and won't always get it perfectly right all the time. I think understanding that we have often forgotten these days, we have three co-equal branches of government. So the president alone in the executive branch does not have absolute or ultimate power over our government or over making decisions that impact the lives of Americans across this country. I think our founders set up our government with this in mind, that we left the monarchy for a reason so that we don't have one person with absolute power, but instead we have a president, a commander-in-chief who is leading our country, working with the United States Congress, the House and the Senate,

which is made up of people who are elected from their communities and from their states to be able to form and shape the policies that do impact the lives of people in this country. So that these decisions are not being made within a vacuum by one single individual, but instead by a representative form of government with the judiciary branches, the check and balance to say, hey, this one does not fall in line with the Constitution of the United States. We're going to throw that one out, making sure that these elected leaders are doing the right thing for the people. So I think the opportunity that's here, and I think what's necessary is having a president who leads with the best interests of the people in mind, takes seriously the principles enshrined

within our constitution, does not abuse that executive power, which is something that we've seen growing in one consecutive administration after another, crossing both party lines, but instead really takes seriously that oath that we all take, that we took as a member of Congress, that we took in the military, that the president takes to uphold and defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Well said. Yeah, and I think, you know, Tulsi's a military person as well. And when you go and you do the best you can and you make the decisions for the right reasons Which aren't necessarily going to turn out right? Sometimes you make decisions and they don't turn out Okay, but you had the right intentions. You tried to do the right thing

It didn't go the way you wanted it to you don't point your fingers or blame anybody else you say, okay Here's here's the mistake. I made here's what we're going to do to fix it And at the end of the day you can walk away and say okay well, I know that I did the best I could with the right intentions and Generally, just like you were talking about people being able to see through when someone's lying behind stage people see you know what? They're trying to do the best job. They had the right intentions in mind and and I think you I think you actually could walk away From the job not saying I did a great job nailed it as joe rogan would say But but to walk away with your head held high

and be able to say, yeah, I did the best I could do. I made some good decisions. I made some bad decisions. I tried to get us on the right path. I tried to support the principles that I believe this country is based on. And you move forward. I think that's completely doable. Yeah. Do you have a long-term idea? If you don't win in 2020, are you going to stick around for 2024? What are your thoughts on that? I'm focused on 2020. And then once that passes, whether you win or not, then you think about the future. Assess.

But you're only 38, right? Yeah. I don't buy that gray hair either. I think it's fake. I think you decided that you look too young.'t buy that gray hair either I think it's fake I think you decided that You look too young What about my gray hair? I believe it you and me are close to the same age

Mine's real too but with you I don't buy it I think you just need a streak Just a cool looking streak Are you going to keep it if the whole thing goes gray? So far I don't want to hold you to that Yeah no no no I started to go gray during my first deployment.

And so I decided to keep it just as a physical reminder of those we lost and the price that so many people paid. If you win, will you be the youngest person ever to be president? Yes. Or were there some weirdos in the 1700s? No. I will be. Actually, I believe I'll be the youngest. Wow.

Yeah. Youngest and a woman. Pretty badass. Yeah. Double first. I agree. You would think that a lot of people would be really excited about that. Yeah.

Instead of just attacking you. Yeah. Well, again, it just shows you how people are so committed to the machine. And you're one of the best examples of that, I think, because there's so much exciting about what you're saying. There's so much that resonates as being honest and straightforward and well thought out and nuanced and balanced, and yet still so much resistance.

But I think the machine is strong, and the machine knows that it doesn't really have a grip on you. Yeah, they don't. And they never will. And I think that's, you mentioned earlier, I think that's creating fear and concern. I just think it's important to point out that the difference when we talk about the people who are concerned about this, it is the people whose power is built off of, you know, they've built this foundation of power based on the status quo,

based on continuing this narrative that benefits the very few, you know, the most rich, the most powerful, the people who can purchase this influence in Washington, as opposed to, you know, the vast majority of people in this country, unfortunately, whose voices are not being heard in Washington, as opposed to, you know, the vast majority of people in this country, unfortunately, whose voices are not being heard in Washington, whose concerns are not being met, by and large, and who exist outside of this, this bubble of corruption within Washington, and who are looking for a leader who's going to hear their voices and amplify them and serve their interests. And I think that's where, again, we've got great opportunity and responsibility to reach those people all across this country and let them know who I am and to hear my message so they know that there is a choice,

that they do have a choice between more of the same old, same old, more of the pay to play corruption that exists in Washington, more of the perpetuation of the same foreign policy of interventionism regime change that's failed us and cost us so much versus fresh leadership with a new approach that puts the interests of our country and peace and security at the forefront of the decisions that are being made. I think this is an interesting time too, because it's one of the first times that I can remember where politicians that are running for president are pushing back against the media machine. Like Andrew Yang recently said, I'm not going to go on MSNBC unless they apologize publicly for a lack of representation.

I mean, they didn't give him a chance to talk. And they treated – meanwhile, there's a giant well of support behind him as well. Yeah. Yeah. People are seeing through the facade that is presented by the corporate media. know, the facade that is presented by the corporate media. And I think finding the power in our voices on, you know, through alternative media, new media, social media, and I think that's what we're seeing with people, hey, if they're given my campaign $5, or, you know, $10 a month, like there's so much power that is, that is, I think people are discovering within their own voices that can, that really is the only thing that can overcome the obstacles that the political and media establishment are placing before us and before the people in having their voices heard.

Who is in the lead now? It's still Biden, right? And behind Biden is Elizabeth Warren. Is that what the idea is? She's in the lead now. It's still Biden, right? And behind Biden is Elizabeth Warren. Is that what the idea is? It seems like it. It seems like it. I think when you look at some of these polls, I think that's the other thing is they most often represent who is most well-known in the country, who's most famous, rather than who actually has the most support. And Elizabeth Warren, wasn't she a Republican for a long time? Yeah. When did she become a Democrat? I may be wrong, but I want to say she was in her 40s, maybe early 50s, something like that. Do you get a chance to talk to these people? Briefly? I mean, it's usually in passing at different campaign events or before the debate or something like that. I know Bernie Sanders best, obviously. Know a few of the others

who I've worked with in the Senate, in Congress on different issues. Andrew Yang, I've enjoyed getting to know. I liked him a lot. Marianne as well. I like Bernie a lot too. I like him a lot more than I thought I would. Like sitting down and talking to him

for three hours on a podcast, it's just like, oh, you're a person. You're not some crazy old dude who screams out at these. I mean, because that's, when you give a man 30 seconds and he's good yeah that's all you can do one minute sound bite 30 second sound bite that's who he is so what's next like where where where you at right now um i think our our initial challenge our the initial goal that we're seeking to meet here is uh to get

I have not qualified yet for the next debate in December What do you have to do to qualify? We need to do two things One is we've got to surpass 200,000 individual donors That's hilarious You need money Where are you at right now? We are at

I think at about 199,000 Oh We're close Joe Rogan's got you covered. We'll take care of that. Help guys. If you're listening, help.

Tulsi2020.com. They'll jump on that like a grenade. And then the second thing is, is I think require a certain number of polls. And I think I need one more poll to meet that requirement, which is again, is directly like, do you look at,

look at a guy like, I think Pete Buttigieg, he spent nine million dollars on social media ads in order to get like a four percent bump in the polls um you look at what some of these other guys have spent some of the billionaires i think steyer spent 37 million dollars in order to qualify in the polls on the debate and so our challenge is we just need to we need to get out and get in front of people um in order to make sure that that we're bypassing the corporate media and we're actually talking directly to folks at home is there a real possibility that sometime in our lifetime

they can take money out of politics like that yes there has to be there has to be the more people learn about how completely lopsided our campaign finance system is. That does two things. It favors those or it helps those who are taking money from corporations and PACs and lobbyists further deepening the divide between the politicians and the people that they are supposed to be serving and representing and instead you know you've got this this insider culture of lobbyists and politicians who are just hanging out and making the decisions um and uh yeah i mean look the second thing is that that you're seeing how um how how corrupting that influence has is on the on the the politicians and the influence that that they have over people

and how much it's disproportionately helping the strength and the power of a two-party system where those parties can literally take, like for me, if you wanted to give me a contribution, you could give me, the limit is $2,800. The primary $2,800. That's it. You can't, no matter how much you want, you can't give me any more money. But if you wanted to write a check to either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party,

doesn't matter. Unlimited amount of money that you can give to the party. So what does that actually mean? It means the party has a hell of a lot of power that they can leverage over individual members of Congress, elected leaders to say, if you don't play ball, if you don't vote the way we want you to vote, we're not going to be there to help you out in your election. We're not going to run TV ads for you. We're not going to help you out when you're getting attacked by the other guy, which just makes the problem that we already have worse,

where instead of leaders voting based on what they believe is right for their constituents or right for the country or based on their, the more they're demanding change and reform so that we are electing leaders who are accountable only to the people. Have you ever had a conversation with someone where they have tried to influence your vote in one way or another in that way that you just described? I have. So, you know, I have met with lobbyists who will say, hey, here's why I want you to vote this way. And oh, by the way, we'll be there at your next fundraising dinner or something like that. Those vampires. You know they hang upside down in closets.

When you asked that question, I was like, Joe, come on, man. That's the deal right there. Yeah. That's the deal right there. And by the way, years ago, when I stopped taking PAC money, I got no calls from any lobbyists. None. When I said no PAC money, no lobbyist money, automatically they're like, well, obviously we can't talk to her if we're not giving her money.

This crazy lady's not playing games. Yeah, exactly. And then I haven't seen it. I established very quickly in Congress that I don't play political games and that I'm not going to be bullied into taking anybody else's position if I don't think it's the right one to take. So I have not experienced that kind of – like the party has never helped me in any of my elections ever for city council, for state legislature, for Congress. So them coming in and saying, well, we're not going to not gonna be like dude you were never there for me ever anyway but i've seen it happen with some of my friends who uh maybe represent uh swing districts or who are democrats who got elected in republican district they're always going to have a really tough race um i i have

seen it happen in real time where that those bully tactics come into play speaking of tactics speaking of tactics speaking of tactics leadership strategy and tactics from jock available right now you're going to need this when you're madam president do i have to call you madam president how's that work is that the word madam president that's what they use it's not mrs president because it's mr president and madam president yeah that's a weird thing right yeah we're about to find out maybe it's maybe well mrs president would be your last name is president yeah which is weird mrs mrs generally means you're Yeah That's a weird thing right Yeah We're about to find out Maybe Mrs. President Would be your last name

As president Yeah Which is weird And Mrs. Mrs. Generally means you're married Yeah Right

Yeah So Yeah Madam President Is what I've seen Yeah it has to be It's just never Been done before

You should always Call me Tulsi No matter what Madam Tulsi Yeah Well whatever That seems like a dominatrix Madam Tulsi Seems like That could be a real issue.

All right. Jocko, your book's available right now. Origin Maine, the website, if you want to get. OriginMaine.com? Yep, OriginMaine.com. MaineTheState.com if you want to get some badass geese and jeans. Straight out of Jocko. Thank you so much for being here.

Tulsi2020.com. We need your help. We do. Tulsi2020.com. Go there. Donate. Let's move the needle. Thank you, guys. Thank you. This is awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for being here Tulsi2020.com We need your help We do Tulsi2020.com Go there Donate Let's move the needle Thank you guys

Thank you This is awesome Thank you for having us here My pleasure Thank you Jaco Bye Thank you Aloha

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