The Joe Rogan Experience - #1399 - Pavel Tsatsouline

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

Pavel Tsatsouline, is the Chairman of StrongFirst, Inc., a fitness instructor who has introduced SPETSNAZ training techniques from the former Soviet Union to US Navy SEALs, Marines and Army Special Forces, and shortly thereafter to the American public.

All right, here we go. What's up, man? How are you? Joe, great to be on your show. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to meet you and an honor. I've been following your work for a long time, man. I mean, I was first introduced to you and your methods by Steve Maxwell, who was a huge proponent of the kettlebell. And then I started getting into your videos. A very smart coach, yeah. Yeah, very good. And I started getting into your videos and I've read your books. And so for me, it's an honor.

My pleasure. How long have you been teaching and practicing with kettlebells? Since you were little? Something like that. Medium. Since you're a medium sized? It's kind of like baseball, you know. It's a pretty common thing.

In Russia? In this area, yeah, it is. Why didn't it catch on here until you came over here? You know what? I don't think people really tried. I don't think people really understood that it would catch on. And I did not think it would happen either. So I'm sitting with my friend Marty Gallagher, having stakes years back.

Marty is a former coach for Powerlifting Team USA and coach of some top lifters. And we were just trading old war stories, talking about stuff. And I told him about kettlebells. He says, well, you've got to teach Americans how to do that. And I said, Marty, you don't understand. This stuff is too hard. Nobody's going to want to do this. And he said, you don't understand. People want to do this. And I wrote an article based on Marty's suggestion for Milo. So Milo was a publication, niche publication for strange guys who lift rocks and bend things and break things and so on and so forth. And so that was the start of it. And then after that, I told my publisher about it. And he said, well, come on, let's just make kettlebells and teach people.

I told him the same thing. You don't understand that people will not want to do this. This is too hard. But he convinced me, and they convinced me, and the rest is history. Why did you think that it was popular in the Soviet Union but wouldn't be popular in America? You know, this is something that you just see. It's a very common thing, Joe. So you just see this.

You don't think much about this. Who knows? Yeah, but it was popular over there. Yeah. And effective. Since at least 1700s or possibly before that. But this country is so performance oriented and so sports oriented and so competitive why wouldn't you think that that would be sort of a natural training modality

they would they would immediately adopt it you got me there so you just but in the u.s some years back decades before there's some some kettlebells were used by some old-time strongmen like Zig Klein, for example. And there was a company named Milo, no relations to the magazine. Really? Why is this thing obsessing with Milo? It's a different Milo. Oh, Milo is the guy who carried the calf. So if you look, okay, the progressive overload is usually explained as this legend of Milo of Crotona.

So this guy started carrying a little calf on his shoulders. And he would carry the calf every day. So the calf would grow, and eventually the guy became very strong. So that's why that name is present in the strength game. So back then, today, it is just one of the finest publications on strength training, mostly niche things, again, like gripping. I wonder if anyone's actually done that, like carry a calf. It would not work.

Isn't it amazing that something can grow physically faster than you can keep lifting it? Absolutely can, but your typical training plan that people say, I'm going to have five pounds on my bench press today, and I'm going to do this every week. And then by Christmas, I'll be the world champion. And it just doesn't work. So the rate of adaptation is such that your body just cannot do that. And it's cyclical in nature. So you have to, to put it in the Milo terms, you have to, after you carry the calf for a while, it it grows you have to back off to a lighter calf and start you know start building up again why we do not know exactly so for some reason that

unidirectional adaptation just in one you know we're getting stronger at the bench press or what have you or carrying the calf it just cannot proceed indefinitely. There's some fatigue of some endocrine mechanisms, some genetic mechanisms. We do not know that. But tactically, we do have tricks of the trade to beat that, to work around that. And there's a number of ways of doing that. And there's a number of ways of doing that. The oldest way of doing that, and it's very smart, still very smart for a lot of people, they would call this, I think, possibly constant weight training or something like that.

But the Soviets described it as step loading. So let's look at your typical beginner, somebody in the gym. And so the person starts lifting whatever weight for whatever reps. And the next week, let's say next week he has five pounds. And he does it again and he does it again. Well, the Soviets figured out that it's much better for him to stay at the same weight for several weeks and then make a bigger jump. So what you're doing pretty much is you are making the adaptations more stable. And it just happens on the cellular levels. Membranes become stronger and so on.

But old-timers just, they would say that you're solidifying the gains. But old-timers just, they would say that you're solidifying the gains. So the way that many old-timers trained is they would just take the same weight and just stay with the same weight for a long time. In the beginning, it's challenging. Then it becomes kind of comfortable. That becomes almost easy. And then we jump up. So that's just one way of doing it.

And today, it's not unprecedented either. If you look at Chris Sommer, he's a gymnastics it. And today it's not unprecedented either. If you look at Chris Sommer, he's a gymnastics coach. He used that with gymnasts. It's very common. I use that tactic with the latest edition of my kettlebell, Simple and Sinister, because it's much more reliable than just progressive overload. And also because psychologically, and also because psychologically, first of all, it weeds out the impatient people. So you're told to stay with the same load for a while. Some people automatically say, oh, forget it.

I cannot do that. Well, I don't want these people following my stuff anyway. And second, so you're staying with this weight or these reps for some time. In the beginning, they challenge you. And then some time goes by and suddenly they don't anymore. So it just very much is a very clear sense of accomplishment. So this is called step loading or using the old timers terminology, the constant weight training. If you look at the other ways of making progress,

so another approach is called cycling. And cycling, so the one that I just described, that would really be if we could artificially stop the growth of the calf, like, okay, stop growing for a while, which we can't. But the cycling, this is where I mentioned earlier, this is where you go back to a lighter calf. So the classic American powerlifting training template, this is cycling. So the history of cycling is very interesting.

Again, what cycling is? Cycling is, in the simplest possible terms, you take 12 weeks, you start with light weights, you build up until you go really heavy. And that was the predominant strength training system in the 70s, in the 80s, and that was the strength system behind the dominant American powerlifting team. So lifters like Eddie Cohn, Kirk Kowalski, lifters like Don Austin, or Lamar Gant, whose deadlift records still stand decades after they used this classic cycling. So the classic cycling, you start with the moderately challenging load, then you keep proceeding, go heavier and heavier and heavier.

Then you compete, then you start over. And to give you a very simple tactic, that's something that your listeners can use in their training, whether they follow the cycling format or they do something else, is that Russian scientists' discovery that your endocrine system pretty much can take two weeks out of four of heavy loading. That's just the way it is. There are some exceptions if you, but forget exceptions.

Generally, just two weeks of heavy loading. And if you look at the classic powerlifting cycles by, let's say, Marty Gallagher, so for four weeks you do sets of eight, four weeks sets of five, four weeks sets of three. And in week one, you start out with a weight that's comfortable. In week two, moderately challenging. In week three, you repeat your previous PR for these reps. And in week four, you set your new PR. And then you jump to the next rep count.

So as you see in this particular template, you have two weeks, two hard weeks of training out of the month. And that's just one of the many ways of doing that. Pardon me, I got distracted. So I wanted to talk about the history of cycling. So Bill Starr, who is a huge name in the game, he was a former top weightlifter in the United States back in the 60s. Later on very successful coach, strength coach, and author. The Strongest Shall Survive, his book on strength training for football, remains one of the best strength training books. And Bill Starr recalls that American lifters started getting a whiff of some Russian periodized programs.

So what's periodization? Periodization, in the simplest terms, is planning your training according to certain principles to end at peak performance. So that's just the really kind of a 50,000-foot definition. And they did not have their full information about how it was done, so they just decided to do exactly that. And that was a very successful approach to strength training. It does not necessarily work for everybody.

There are some reasons for that, mostly because of your sport competition if you're an athlete. But it's extremely effective, as was shown on the platform. And finally, so first we discussed step cycling, step loading, which is constant training. Second, we discussed wave cycling, which is just cycling, right? Wave loading. And the third one would be the variable loading. And variable loading is extremely unique. It's unlike something else. So here's how variable

loading works. In variable loading, you have certain load parameters. Like, for example, you will know that your average training weights will be 75% of your maximum. You will know that you will perform, for example, 300 squats per month or whatever. So these numbers are arrived at experimentally over decades. And what variable loading does, as opposed to the traditional methods, traditional progressive overload, is that the jump in volume, for example, from one training unit to another, one day, one week, one month, and so on, it's at least 20%. So the jumps are really high, really high. It's at least 20%. So the jumps are really high, really high. The variable loading was developed by Professor Arkady Vorobyov, who was an Olympic weightlifting champion,

and he was the premier sports scientist. So he argued that in nature, most changes are discrete. They're not gradual. They're discrete. So whatever adaptation take place in your body, the same thing, whatever happens with many physical process, chemical processes, and so on. So he concluded that training has to be highly variable. So you understand what I mean that it's a 20% minimal change. We call that Delta 20 principle. It doesn't mean it's a 20% minimal change, we call that delta 20 principle. It doesn't mean it's constantly going up.

That's just not possible. It goes up and down. It just keeps whiplashing. So if we use, if we go back to the traditional cycling as an example, the traditional cycling, so it's a linear buildup, back up a little, linear buildup, back up a little, linear buildup, back up a little. In contrast, variable overload, it's going crazy. It's completely insane.

In fact, this is a little entertaining. Experienced strength coaches and especially people with some sort of a background in mathematics, they're able to dissect and analyze training plans from other coaches. You can look at a plan. You can take an experienced powerlifting coach, show him a program from another coach, and the coach will be able to tell whether this will work or not, who this will work for and so on and kind of figure out what's under the hood right there. So there's a very clear pattern.

Variable overload. So it's like a photograph. It's very clear. Variable overload, if you start analyzing the pattern, looking at the program. So, for example, Barysh Sheiko, he's a former coach of Russian national powerlifting team. So he took the Soviet Olympic weightlifting methodology and directly applied it

to powerlifting. So his plans have made their way to the West and some lifters use them very successfully. But whenever you try to read this plan and try to make any sense of that it just drives you crazy because you see like okay here's a string here's a pattern is going right here and suddenly it's gone so if traditional cycling it's like clear photograph the variable overload makes me think of remember in Ferris Bueller's Day Off where the kid is looking at Seurat's painting

you know all these dots right there so when you step away you see something you start getting closer just a whole bunch of dots it just disappears so what's the story behind that so the story is this? So the story is this. This method, the Soviet Olympic weightlifting method,

was developed over several decades by a number of coaches, by a number of scientists. So it's a very much collaborative effort. So Vorobyov was one for sure, Medvedev, Chernyak, a number of others. So Vorobyov was one for sure, Medvedev, Chernyak, a number of others. And it was a very – before even dissecting this method, let me tell you how successful this method was. You can look up the world weightlifting records in Olympic weightlifting. And you hear about all these different records set by this lifter, that lifter, and so on and so forth.

If you, few people realize that the International Weightlifting Federation has changed the weight classes two or three times since the 80s. And the reason they did that is to erase the drug, the record set by the drug-taking athletes back then. Of course, Joe, I'm very happy that as soon as they changed the weight classes, lifters stopped taking drugs like that.

So if you look at these records, kilo per kilo, pound per pound, and if you chart them, compare them to what they did then, to what they do today, you will find that while they did catch up in a few weight classes, in about half of these classes, the records from the 80s still stand. So, for example, what Yurik Vardanyan did in 1980 at 82 kilos, he totaled 400 kilos in the snatch and the clean and jerk. That's never been done before. And Yurik Varbanian was a wiry guy. He wouldn't have been taken for a lifter.

Just amazing. So, first of all, the system still remains. If we're just taking a very large, big picture, 50,000 foot look at strength, there are a great many ways of getting strong. Some of them very good, some of them mediocre, some of them very bad. But historically in lifting sports, the two systems that have been predominant are the Soviet weightlifting system and the American classic powerlifting system from the 70s and 80s. Okay? and the American classic powerlifting system from the 70s and 80s.

Okay? So that was kind of a long detour to before I tell you why this stuff that they figured out back in 1960s, why it matters just to say it still is the best. It still rules. So what they did was very empirical. For example, when you're studying endurance, going into the cell, studying the biochemistry of the cell and the body, taking it apart, figuring out how this works is very helpful, very. On the other hand, when you're dealing with strength, that approach has been not really effective.

So if we talk about muscle training, for example, hypertrophy, we still have no idea what the hell is going on. So we know which buttons to push, but that's just empirical knowledge. That's not the understanding of the cell. So we really don't understand hypertrophy? Really? No, we do not. Wow.

No. And I'll be happy to talk about this, but if you don't mind, let me just finish on this variable overload in the Soviet weightlifting system. So what they did, even though they also – you know, they cut the muscle, look at that as well, just didn't learn as much. But the coaches programmed particular loads for athletes and watched what happened. And then they watched how the athletes performed, and they watched how the top athletes performed, and they looked for patterns. And they were very open-minded, so they were not thinking like,

well, it's got to be just the heaviest weights will do that, or it's got to be the training to failure is going to do that. It's not the case. So just to give you an example of how enormous that undertaking was. So typical strength training study is what? Six weeks for some untrained college subjects. You know, guys are just on their phones. Professor Medvedev, who is also a world champion, he studied the training loads of top weightlifters

only when they were successful in competition for four Olympic cycles. Four. So we're talking about 16 years, and then somebody else will do it for another cycle. And there are just some amazing patterns just emerged. So for instance, I'm going to give you a rundown of what the patterns are. There are certain optimal volumes, how much exercise you do. There are certain optimal intensities. So if you follow the variable overload method, the optimal intensity, so the average intensity would be about 75% of your max, which for most people would be probably somewhere like eight reps or something you could do, maybe 10, maybe eight.

And you will see that about half of all the lifts that you do are about 75%, 80%. Now, where do all the other lifts come in? So there's a normal distribution. So you'll find that 75%, 80% are on the top, 80%, 85% a little bit lower. So the lighter weights, like 60%, are on the bottom. And the heavy weights, like 90% and higher, are on the bottom as well. So to figure it out, you just have to do most of your work with these average weights. They're not so light, so you're going to respect

them, but they're not so heavy that you have any question about performing lifting them correctly. So, and then there's another aspect of intensity is just doing some heavier lifts, very, very carefully measured number of heavy lifts in addition, like 90% or whatever, occasionally. Then they figured out the proper volumes. Just to give you an idea, if you're looking at, let's say, you know, you might be doing 30 reps of given exercise per session, what have you, although there's variability. But then there's also something else that's very interesting,

is the optimal number of repetitions with a given weight. And this is what hurts people's heads. If you look at the weights from 70% to 90%, the optimal number of repetitions are one-third to two-thirds of your maximum. So let me give an example to the reader, to the listener. Let's say that you're lifting a 10-rep max weight. So you go all out as hard as possible. You can do 10 reps. In training, you should be doing three to six reps.

That's it. That's the window. And why is that? We have no idea. But the scientists, like in this case, I think it was Matveev who was involved in that, the father of periodization. I think it was one of the scientists.

They experimented with all sorts of rep ranges. And they figured out that if the reps are too low, they're giving a weight, you don't get stronger that if the reps are too low, they're giving a weight, you don't get stronger. If the reps get too high, either the athlete gets hurt, or his technique is compromised, or he's just unable to perform the optimal volume. So pretty much roughly, you're looking at doing about half of the reps you're capable of. That's it. And people can argue with this all they want. Like, what's the science behind this? There's no science.

We don't know. The science is purely empirical. This particular method is purely empirical. It worked for decades. It still does. And that's one of the ways you can get strong. So in summary, we have step loading, which is where you stay with the same weight for a while or the same reps, whatever, and then make a sudden jump. That's the best way to train for beginners usually.

We have wave loading or cycling, which is we build up, jump back and build up again. And we have variable loading, which is almost chaotic. We're just constantly surprised the body with what we're throwing at it, but we do that within very narrow parameters. So this method was purely developed by studying winners. And winners is where they finally took that. But the studies were done at every level. was purely developed by studying winners. And winners is where they finally took that. But the studies were done at every level.

So, for example, coaches in the field would conduct something called pedagogical experiments, which is a study that's not quite as scientifically solid, but it's still good enough. So the first would test things out to lower-level athletes, and then we'll finally take it to higher-level athletes. So the things that I'm telling you about, they have been universally effective for athletes above the beginner level. And, of course, there are some subtle changes as you progress. There are some subtleties. Like, for instance, notice that I said that you have to

use some heavy lifts, like 90%, 95%. But it has to be very surgical about how many. So for instance, beginners do none. Advanced lifters need to do just some, but not many. Intermediate lifters can do the most. Or heavyweight lifters can do not as many, lighter ones can do more. So there are some differences at different levels, but the principles fundamentally are the same. And do these principles apply whether people are taking drugs or not? Yes, they do. The difference is, in fact, the Sverkosanskoye Medvedev made a very strong case, a very strong case of that. They used the Soviet euphemism for that was restoratives. And they said this is universal even with restoratives or not.

The difference for the drugs would be just that the volumes will be higher. You'll be able to train more. That's pretty much the difference. But the body will still work the same way. Now, these principles, have they caught on in the United States? I mean, they've caught on with Strong First. I know you implement these and people teach these. But is this something that's universally sort of accepted,

or is it still something that people are cautiously curious about? It's definitely not universal, in part because people don't know about it. In part, you have to implement this correctly. So right now, there's several areas where you would see that is, well, one, obviously, the Baryshevko's powerlifting programs that have been imported here, but they're used by powerlifters. The other is we have the program called Plan Strong, which is, and again, this is a very faithful representation of the Soviet weightlifting system, but applied to general strength exercises like, you know, squats, deadlifts, and so on. And the other thing what we also do, and this is what we do with the military and so on and so forth. We have some simple programs, very simple programs that are designed using this Delta

20 principle and using this optimal loads that they could just go out and use. The nice thing is, unlike progressive overload cycling, if something happens, you got a problem. Here, there is some variability. So in summary, to say no, it's got a problem. Here, there's some variability. So in summary, just say no. It's not widely known. It's not. Now, in the United States, yeah, let's fix it. It makes sense.

And one of the things that I really like what you're saying about is completing the adaptation with your tendons and your ligaments and all these different things that oftentimes are injured when you're ramping up your weightlifting and you're trying to increase the amount of weight you carry. So this principle of maintaining at a similar weight for a long time, allowing your body to complete that adaptation, that makes a lot of sense. Adaptations need to be stable and it does, it's not true just for strength training. If you're looking at endurance as well, the adaptations in the mitochondria as well, you can get some acute adaptations, so very short term, like, oh, you know, bigger,

whatever, guns in six weeks or faster 400 meters in six weeks. Yes, you can do that. But these adaptations are transient. So it takes time for things to really get solidified. And also, if you're more patient with your progression, as well, you're going to find that your gains are much more stable if you take some time off, which is important for anybody. You travel, you get sick, some other thing happens. So if you've been training in a manner where you're not forcing yourself, in fact, this is one of the very important points that Soviet coaches would make that do not force adaptation. David Riggard.

Riggard's probably the greatest weightlifter of all times. So he has over 60 world records in several weight classes and just unbelievable athlete. So he just made a point that do not force the strength development. Do not force mass development. That's another problem. It's possible to build muscle fast, but it's not going to necessarily be a very quality muscle.

So, yes, take your time. And this is interesting enough, Joe. This is what old timers understood. I'm a fan of books by old time strong men. Not all of them, of course, but some of them are just remarkable. Earl Liederman, he was an American strongman and educator. He wrote a book back in 1925 called The Secrets of Strength, and it's an awesome book.

So you read this book, and if you follow the directions in this book from 1925, you will get far superior results than from most pop fitness and strength programs because people who had some sense, some common sense, you will get far superior results than from most pop fitness and strength programs. Because people who had some sense, some common sense, they were able to, again, observe what's going on. They were not driven by some slogan, oh, one more rep, whatever. Yeah. The one more rep thing is very embraced here in America with meatheads, which are my people.

very embraced here in america you know with uh meatheads which are my people the the thing about it is that you think that mental toughness is going to push you past your limits or what your perceived limits are and that that's where the real strength happens that's where the real growth takes place that's a via that's a very valid point for you mentally, not physically. Mentally, but periodically. This is a very important point. You have to push the body to the limit, whether in competition or some other manner, but for a short period of time and not too often. That's very important. You know who Ronnie Coleman is, right?

Yeah. is right yeah yeah ronnie coleman who was mr olympia just uh at one point in time one of the most impressive and spectacular physiques on earth is now so injured from all of his incredible lifts he was known for lifting enormous enormous amounts of weight and uh i mean i think when they asked him about if we do anything different because i think he's had, I hope I'm not wrong, but I think more than 11 back surgeries over the last few years. Yeah. He's essentially herniated every single disc in his back. And a series of back operations has left him walking with crutches. And, you know, it's bad.

But this is the result of this sort of mindset of a champion, you know, that he was— Joe, pardon me. I'm going to interrupt you for a second. The champion has that mindset on the platform. The champion, whenever the champion is in the gym, he or she is going to approach this as a working man, pretty much. This is the plan. This is what I do. So you will find that absolutely in sports, you have to be extremely tough.

And you have to model some of that in training as well, but in a very, very careful, timed manner. Yeah. So, for instance, top lifters, top power lifters, they max twice a year at the nationals and at the worlds meanwhile they train hard they push themselves to do everything right but they do not try to squeeze out one extra rep it just simply will not work it does not work i remember having conversation with andy bolden andy Andy is the first man to deadlift a thousand pounds and just speak tiger athlete. If you watch Andy pull in competition, it's just, just unbelievable. It's a thing of beauty. And I just, Andy was telling me how, how some lifters

he has seen that would just simply try to hang with others, better lifters in the gym, and try to repeat exactly what they do. And that's what happens after that. Nothing good happens from that. You have to be tough when it's time. In the gym, you have to do the plan. And like, for example, let's talk about heavy lifting, just heavy singles, let's say. If I'm sure everybody who listens to your program has at what point of their life decided to up their bench press by going to a maximum once a week. I'm sure everybody has.

I have. You have. Everybody has. So how long did it last? have everybody has so how long did it last typically six weeks for beginner and an advanced lifter might tolerate two or three weeks and that's about it so for whatever reasons after that you know your nervous system starts burning out your endocrine system can't keep up and that's it so for that reason before the competition you might take like a 90% single or double or something like that. And if you look at the longevity of powerlifters, and if you look at longevity of the weightlifters of the Soviet school, it's very impressive.

I'll give you one great example. So, well, David Riggert himself, who was the champion around, you know, in the 70s. So he is probably pushing 70 right now, you know, lives in a farm, works in a farm. But his coach, doing great, very healthy. But his coach, that's an even more interesting story. Rudolf Plückfelder, he was probably the oldest to win the Olympics in weightlifting. He was 36. was probably the oldest to win the Olympics in weightlifting.

He was 36. And he worked in the mines in daytime and then trained hard. So, Blückfeld, ethnically, he's German. So, one of the Germans living in the Soviet Union. And eventually, when the Soviet Union fell apart, Blückfeld immigrated to Germany. And so a journalist

came to visit him. And so here's this really spry-looking guy fooling around in the garden. And the journalist is asking, pardon me, sir, may I speak to your dad? So here's this guy who is almost 90 years old, who still looks about 30 years

younger, who still does jump squats with 90 kilos for sets of 10. And this is an example. So heavyweights don't have the same longevity, but that does not have anything to do with the training system that has to do with the fact, the strain you put in your system by eating so much, just not so good. But these guys have longevity. If you also look at the powerlifters, most successful powerlifters, American powerlifters, Eddie Cohn competed for, if I'm not mistaken, about 30 years at the highest level from a very lightweight class to a much heavier one. And he stayed super healthy throughout.

He maybe had one injury. And Eddie, right now, yours after retirement is very, very healthy. So you will find that the mentality of saving this eye of the tiger for when it matters, as opposed to treating every training day as a competition, that makes a big difference for performance and for longevity. It just battles the mindset of always do more, always push harder, always give your all, leave everything in the gym. This is the mindset that people have been sort of indoctrinated into. Sure. They think that hard work is what really matters.

Hard work does matter, but hard work can come in a lot of different, it can manifest itself differently. Would that approach have worked with a guy like Ronnie Coleman because he's a bodybuilder? So bodybuilders, obviously, you're not talking about competition in the sense of being able to lift a lot of weight. You're talking about just mass, acquiring mass. Well, you know, the bodybuilders from the older era,

like Franco Colombo, very sad that Dr. Colombo passed recently, but he was an exceptionally strong man, a very healthy man. He died swimming. Yeah, but it was a hard issue that has nothing to do with lifting. So he was very healthy and very strong till the end.

And if you look at the guys of that generation, they're doing great. And if you look at other bodybuilders, power lift, let's say bodybuilders who have some kind of a power bodybuilding approach, these guys have been around longer as well. If you look at the old-timers, again, Dave Draper, these guys, oh, Clarence Bass. Do you know Clarence Bass? Sure. Okay. Super shredded.

Clarence is a friend of mine, and Clarence is, well, let's put it this way. He's not a spring chicken, but he's got an absolutely spectacular physique. He's still staying very strong. Are there recent pictures of him? Yeah. How old is he now? He's got to be in his 70s, right? Pushing 80 possibly. Yeah. Yeah. There old is he now? He's got to be in his 70s, right? Pushing 80 possibly.

Yeah. Yeah. There he is. Yep, that's Clarence. He's awesome. That guy is awesome. That is crazy. That picture of him lifting his shirt up with this complete grandpa face and just super jacked body.

That guy's incredible. He knows how to push himself when you need to push himself. Yeah. Well, he's very, very intelligent, that guy. But all top athletes and lifters are very intelligent. There are some flukes, but they don't last long. Right. I see what you're saying.

Yeah. For longevity, you sort of have to have that sort of intelligent approach. So do you think a guy like Ronnie Coleman would be able to achieve the mass and the size and the way he was built with a different strategy? I can speculate. I don't know, but I can speculate. But if you look at the muscle mass that have been achieved by heavyweight powerlifters, like Kurt Kowalski. Look up that guy. Kurt Kowalski. Kurt Kowalski, K-A-R-W-O-S-K-I.

So if you see that type of development achieved by heavyweight powerlifters, then I don't see why not. And bodybuilders have their own additional techniques. They still have to do their stuff for their separation and whatever it is that you do. But I think there's a very good chance that he would have and if you look at the successful power like michael hearn for example that's a very strong guy he's a power bodybuilder there we go here's karwoski right there jesus christ look at the size of that

fucking guy yeah he looks like a body but look at the size of his legs that is that is ridiculous yeah and that guy just would not fool around with uh peck whatever deck and what have you peck deck yeah you say that disdainfully what do you want me to say? A lot of people don't understand what's wrong with it. You know, machines are, this is an interesting point of view. Okay. There is a belief that machines are great for beginners

and because you don't have to control it, it's safer and isolated, so on and so forth. Really, machines have limited use for advanced lifters when they're injured or whenever they have to just really focus on something. So it's possible. It's possible to use a machine.

If you're really messed up, you can find some angle. But a beginner starts doing leg presses, it's going to tell him his hoppers coordination. It's not going to have the back strength. It's not going to have his ab strength. He's not going to have his ab strength. So machines are not necessarily bad. So the pec deck might be okay for a bodybuilder looking for more cuts or for somebody recovering from an injury knowing exactly the angle at which to push. But your typical person going to the gym has no business doing that.

None. One of the things that I love about kettlebells is that it promotes functional strength. It promotes the entire body moving as a unit, and that seems to apply very quickly to athletics. It's one of the reasons why jiu-jitsu people have adopted kettlebell training so almost universally. Absolutely. There are many reasons why, but that's one of them. And non-glamorous moves like Turkish getup, which like one of the very best moves for jiu-jitsu. It's just phenomenal for your stability, your core, and your ability to get out from under the bottom positions.

It's just in one workout. It's also so effective time-wise because you can get a spectacular workout in a very short amount of time. You're correct, Joe. Because you can get a spectacular workout in a very short amount of time. You're correct, Joe. Maybe this is a good time to discuss the benefits of kettlebells versus, let's say, barbells or bodyweight. Sure. That's a very good conversation. That's a question people ask often.

Right. So I would name these as three top modalities for people. Yeah, there are some other additional things, dumbbells and whatever, but usually they're secondary. So what are the respective benefits of these different modalities? The body weight is obviously it's accessible. It's with you no matter where you go. But interestingly enough, the body weight requires the most coaching. So you have to, it's very subtle. Like for example, if you look at developing something, the gym is called the hollow position, takes a lot of coaching. To perform a correct even pull-up or push-up, it's a lot of work,

one-legged squats, so on and so forth. So it's great, but it just takes more time, more investment. Also, the downside of the body weight would be you can't really train your lower back effectively, and you have to train your lower back to see young. You just have to. And whatever you do, back extensions, other stuff, neck bridges, it's not going to do it for your back.

It just won't. So body weight, great modality, but with these limitations. The barbell, if you just love heavy stuff, it's awesome. And it's just psychologically, it's extremely satisfying, a heavy deadlift, let's say, for some people, not for all. Then if you're looking for for to maximize your muscle mass, nobody has come up yet with anything other than the barbell. So, you know, you start doing, you know, some repetition, deadlift, squat, so on. So that's another reason. But let's say you're playing football, right?

The problem with the barbell, first of all, is is the learning curve it takes some time to learn it correctly it's not easy to master it and it takes a lot of instruction in addition the barbell is not forgiving so let's say that one of your shoulders is jacked up it's just not very forgiving because you can't, you just have to adjust yourself to the bar as opposed to make the implement adjust to yourself. So this is where the kettlebell comes in. First of all, the kettlebell, because it moves freely, it adjusts to your body, to your physiology, to your anatomy, I should say. So it works, it worked quite well. For example, Mark Rifkin,

he's one of my top instructors. He was a highly successful gymnast in the past. And later on, he was a coach for women's powerlifting national team and great powerlifter too. So he cannot do bilateral exercises well because of the mileage he sustained. He took a very bad landing as a gymnast, ruined his knee, and then from there other things went bad, back, whatever. But he can do one-arms. He cannot do two-arm swings because it just messes him up. But he can do one-arm swing,

so the body compensates a little differently, and he can handle it. So with the proper medical clearance, it's much easier to work around problems. Then the offset center of gravity, that's just a tremendous thing for your back. I'm sorry, for your shoulder. So the positions you put your shoulder in, you cannot do with anything else. And obviously you have the get-up, which is an amazing exercise. You cannot do it as well with other implements. But the ballistics, that's another unique benefit of the kettlebell,

swings and snatches, exercises like that. The benefits of these exercises are many. So first of all, ballistic loading obviously is part of sports, and it's a part of life. And oftentimes it's hard to do it safely. Go ahead, start jumping. Before somebody starts jumping correctly, jumping off boxes and so on and so forth, just even hopping across the floor, it requires some coaching.

It requires getting some strength. It requires addressing some dysfunction and so on and so forth. The kettlebell swing, for example, it's so many hard men with high mileage who are really banged up in so many different ways. Their backs, their knees, their hips, they're able to do swings safely. That's just remarkable. And the ballistic contraction is very important. So you have to run, you have to jump, you have to do things like that. But it goes beyond that for your health, for your longevity. So as we grow older, there's a loss of type 2 muscle fibers, so the strong ones, the fast-reach fibers. And there are several problems with that.

First of all, they're metabolically needed for the body to be healthy, to process sugar, so on, so on, so forth. Second is to deal with real-life situations. You know, like it's very unfortunate. Some old person trips and breaks a hip. It's terrible. And oftentimes the reason is just weakness. And we need these fast fibers because whenever you trip and you have this reflexive contraction,

these fibers go online first. So if you don't have them anymore, you've got massive problems, right? So another reason is in type 2 fibers, there is mitochondrial degeneration takes place as you grow older, much faster than others. And if you don't take care of that, it's also that's aging. So you've got to train this type 2 fibers. And there are only two ways to train type 2 fibers. It's heavy or fast. So there's no third way.

So whenever people try to do some sort of a super slow this or Pilates that, whatever, it's not going to do it. So you have to train heavy or you have to train fast if you want to stay young. So are you completely against that kind of super slow training? Not at all, but for totally different reasons. There is, well, obviously one reason is possibly somebody's injured, right? Another reason is to develop your type 1 endurance fibers, hypertrophy for these fibers. Why would you want to do that? Well, first of all, type 1 fibers, the downside of these fibers is they contract slower.

So obviously that's a downside for some sports, for some activities. But they're also more efficient, which means it's plus for other sports, right? So another positive here, they already come pre-equipped with mitochondria. So mitochondria, that's where aerobic metabolism takes place. And by building your type 1 fibers, you automatically get more endurance in addition to muscle mass and strength too. So super slow work is good for that, but it has to be done correctly. The proper methods were developed by Russian professor Viktor Siluanov. And so he developed this method. I'm going to summarize it for you right now for your listeners.

That's something you can easily do yourself. Easily is not the word. Simply. So the duration of a set is 30 to 60 seconds. You have to select the range of motion where there's no stacking. There's no support from your bones at all. So, for example, if you were to do a squat, you go down below parallel, but not to the point where you're sitting on your calves,

and come up just a little above parallel and below again. So just that most unpleasant, the most painful area. If you're doing, let's say, push-ups for your chest, for example, you would almost brush the deck with your chest, come up about halfway, and come back down. And the speed is very slow, so there's no momentum at all. Now, it doesn't sound like anything new, but here's what's new. Sulianov optimized the rest periods, and that's a big game changer. Normally, when people train in this manner, bodybuilders and others,

they just want to get the most burn possible. And by the way, the burn is awful. And in this particular case, you want to train close to failure. In this particular case, that's just a muscular training. That's not strength training per se. So they try to run from one set to the next. So they'll do that, let's say, that 30-second set, then they will just, you know, rest for 30 seconds, do it again, completely hammer themselves. The problem with that is, even though we do not know the exact mechanisms of muscle growth, we do know that some lactic acid is needed, but too much lactic acid is destructive. lactic acid is needed, but too much lactic acid is destructive. So what Silyanov did is he figured out is after this kind of set,

you have to rest for 5 to 10 minutes. And it sounds for people, it's a very hard mental thing to do. So here I am going for this massive burn, and I have to wait for 5 to 10 minutes. But it's very simple. You introduce another exercise in between so train twice a week five to five to ten sets on the heavy day eventually once you build up to it and about one to three sets in a light day that's it now this is incorporating super slow techniques oh yeah and who would this be good for?

Wrestlers. For wrestlers, it's spectacular. Yeah. Because even though there are explosive elements there as well, but it's also very much there's that static element, static endurance. And one of my strong first certified instructors, Roger from the UK, I had him follow this protocol before he and his crew rode across the Atlantic. And he did much better off than most people and was much happier, if you can be happier, rolling across the Atlantic.

So for rowing, for wrestling, for bodybuilding, for some people who cannot do anything else. So that's a good protocol. So this is essentially a muscular endurance protocol. You know what? It's both. Because the muscle's getting bigger, and it will get stronger as well. But it won't be faster.

It's not something you would incorporate with a boxer. No, absolutely not. No, definitely not. Wrestler, yes. MMA, you just have to use your judgment there. Right, depending upon your style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. MMA, you just have to use your judgment there.

Right. Depending upon your style. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, it's so interesting hearing this big, long break in between exercises because it makes sense. It makes sense you would want the muscles to be fully recovered because then they'd be able to do more work.

But that's so counterintuitive to what everybody promotes. You go to a coach, you get a personal trainer or something like that. They just want to burn everybody out. That's all, come on, let's go, let's go, next exercise. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. Well, that's about feeling. Yeah. That's not, that's about feeling and that's about time management possibly.

And not about results. No. And there are other ways to save time. There are other ways of doing that. Depending on your circumstances, you can definitely find ways of doing that. But you can fill in the time with other things. Let's say you're doing this hypertrophy protocol. And by the way, that's been used extensively by Russian National Judo Ensemble teams.

So you're doing some rows on the belt, you know, the guy's holding you up. Then you walk around for a minute, you do the push-ups. Then you walk around, you do something else. So you're making good use of the time. You're just not revisiting the same exercise. So instead of taking 10 minutes

in between any workout at all, you would take just a couple minutes in between and then do like push-ups and then do something that's Non-related to that so think of it as A slow circuit yeah Okay slow circuit but then you Go back to whatever it was that you

Were initially doing 10 minutes Later correct yeah so those Muscles are recovered but physiologically You're still getting this constant state Of exercise or at least fairly Constant with some you what's The lowest amount of break in Between an exercise you recommend that you're still getting this constant state of exercise, or at least fairly constant. What's the lowest amount of break in between an exercise you recommend? That would be, that's the guidelines,

Silyanov's guidelines, about five minutes of rest is active for the same exercise I'm talking about. So active rest means you're moving. You're not just sitting. Jump rope, maybe. Not necessarily. This would be probably just walking around. Maybe you could do some super easy shadow boxing or something or like footwork or something. But I mean extremely, extremely easy.

So that facilitates the circulation. Okay. Yeah. Just do that. And if it's passive, it's longer. That's – wow. It's, again, so counterintuitive to what most people call it. Particularly something like CrossFit, right?

counterintuitive to what most people call like particularly something like crossfit right crossfit is all about massive reps and doing the most that you possibly can and you know switching from one thing quickly to another thing how do you feel about that joe how about we take one minute i'll get myself another tea and i'll address that sound good yeah sure thanks it's a good question man very good question excellent questions jo. Thanks. It's a good question, man. Very good question. Excellent question, Joe. Thank you. He's going to go get another tea. Do you know how to do it?

No. No idea. All right. Jamie will do it for you. I have a cup here. I think he's going to get you another cup, whether you like it or not. This is not in the shot, is it? It doesn't matter.

Okay. It can be in the shot, is it? It doesn't matter. Okay. It can be in the shot. That this, all this stuff is so interesting because it's so obviously I mean, it makes sense. But it's just

not the method that anyone is accustomed to. I'm surprised that's not necessarily true. If you look at the top coaches, if you look at top athletes who don't necessarily advertise what they're doing, that's not the case. So it's more common now. It's getting there. Yeah.

Oh, sorry. Let me do this. Let me dump this in there. Are you a tea fanatic? No, I'm just a warm liquid fanatic. My favorite warm liquid is Canarino. Italians make it. It's like zest from lemon, and you boil it.

Stuff is good. Yeah? Yeah. Do you drink caffeine? Yeah. Yeah? Occasionally? No, twice a day, but just a very small amount.

Don't want to be running around buzzing. Yeah, that's what I like. You like buzzing? Yeah. That's good, man. Keep buzzing. So tell me about CrossFit. So CrossFit, so what is your question about CrossFit exactly?

The methods that they use, the sort of competition with Olympic-style lifts, doing it to maximum reps, doing it for speed. Do you think that's a recipe for injury, or do you think it's a good modality if pursued correctly? injury or do you think it's a good modality if pursued correctly? I'm going to start by saying that I like the fact that CrossFit gets people out, gets people training. They have a great community. People are very motivated. I like the fact that they understand the concept of general physical preparation, which means you have to train multiple different qualities. I would not go about it the way they do it.

And let me explain to you why. So let's talk about endurance. So there are different aspects to endurance. And so there's cardio and there is the local the peripheral endurance in the muscles muscular endurance so first of all let's discuss how do we develop cardio let's discuss how we develop endurance in the muscle the best the healthiest way to develop your cardio is just steady state exercise like running at a particular particular speed that's not too fast. That's very simple.

That's the best way to develop cardio. For most people it is. For most people it is. And so here's what's happening. What's happening is the heart is stretching. When you increase your heart rate up to a certain point, the heart starts stretching more, and it stretches more and more. So that increases the stroke volume. So pretty much you to a certain point, the heart starts stretching more and it stretches

more and more. So that increases the stroke volume. So pretty much you get a bigger heart and that's good. That works up to not quite 90% of heart rate. When you start redlining your heart rate, when you start getting to 90% and higher, the heart does not have time to relax fully. So it really pretty much is twitching. So you're no longer really stretching that heart. So you want to be training at the metabolic intensity that's much lower, something we can pretty much sustain a conversation. So like say you're running and talking to your body. That's what you want to stay to develop endurance. Well, to develop to stress your heart.

That's the basic method. So that's one method. So the second method is interval training. And the interval training for the heart was developed by Germans decades ago. And these guidelines still stand. So here's what they figured out. decades ago, and these guidelines still stand. So here's what they figured out.

They figured out that your, well, we know that these various systems in your body have inertia. So, for instance, notice that when you're running hard and you stopped, your heart's still beating hard, and then maybe 10 seconds after, there's a sudden drop right there. So there's that inertia. So the Germans figured out if you get your heart rate up to about 85%, 90%, which is hard, but it's still not maximal. And then you switch to walking or jogging, so the heart is still beating, and so this extra volume of blood is moving, and it stretches the heart. So it works really well.

So you can use the interval method as well, but it was found it's used best after a period of steady-state training. It's very demanding on the body, and it's not. It's just too easy to have problems with the heart if you start using it prematurely. Then there's also such a thing as high heart rate under heavy loads. So in this particular case, we're talking about dynamic exercises. So what's dynamic exercise? Running, bicycling, skiing, even light kettlebell swings. That's dynamic exercise.

When you start doing static exercise, let's say you're trying to do squats, heavy squats for, you know, to get your cardio, so to say. That's not the best idea because that interferes with the blood flow. That's something called afterload versus preload. The heart gets thicker instead of the heart gets stretched and bigger. So it's not the optimal way to train the heart. You can, again, the simple way you can use dynamic exercise and interval type training or repeat training in this case, to train your heart, is to do an exercise that's dynamic in nature, to raise your heart rate to about, let's say, 80-90%, which would be 80-90%, it would be where you can say maybe a couple words, you know,

you're not, you're not dying yet, you can still answer a question. And then you just walk around and you do it again. So that's a simple way of doing it. How much time walking around? That depends. That totally depends on who you are. Depends on how fast your heart rate drops back down. And what do you want to, like, is there a number? Do you want to keep it in the 140s, the 150s? Does it depend upon your age? Okay. In this particular case, you would drop it down. The original guidelines were done for young people, those 120, 130 beats. So you're talking about 60, 65%. And pretty much if you're just looking at being able to pass the talk test,

which means you can talk, you know, short sentences. I can speak in short, something like that, right? So, for example, you do a set of 10 swings, really powerful with a kettlebell. Walk around a little bit. When you feel that you can speak again, you do it again, do it again. So that's a simple way of doing that. But the heart is only a very small part of endurance. So we definitely need to do some cardio for our health.

And athletes definitely need to do it for their performance. But what we really need to focus on is you need mitochondria. So mitochondria in the muscle cell. So that's where energy is being converted aerobically, which means efficiently. So if you look at the way your muscle uses energy, so you will get this energy with food converted. It goes down. Eventually, the final currency, so to say, is something called ATP. But you only have it for a few seconds. So it has to be reloaded. So we have three main energy systems.

So we have the creatine phosphate system. It's very powerful, but it's only going to go for just some seconds. And it's clean burning. We have aerobic system that's not powerful at all, but it's longer lasting. And we have the glycolytic system that's kind of in between that dumps a lot of acid and other fatigue metabolites in there. So what we want to do is we want to develop this mitochondria in our muscles. It's easy to do in slow fibers and it's a little more involved in fast fibers. I'll tell you how we can do that, but it can be done. So what we're looking for,

I'll tell you how we can do that, but it can be done. So what we're looking for, instead of trying to trash the muscle with acid, we are trying to train in a way that to produce less acid. And then only before the competition, right before the competition, a couple of weeks out, you do a couple of kind of smokers like that to get yourself used to that thing. So the way we develop mitochondria, which means make your muscle oxidative, make your muscle enduring and not polluting. In slow fiber, it's simply moving right below an aerobic threshold. moving right below an aerobic threshold.

So an aerobic threshold, it's that intensity at which you, you know, acid is accumulating just up to a certain point and stays at that steady state, and you can keep disposing of that for a while, for quite a while. As soon as you go above it, very rapidly, you crash. So running right below the anaerobic threshold is the primary training method for endurance athletes. And how do you know that you ran the threshold? When you fail in the TOC test. That's a simple way to do that. And it's very interesting that endurance athletes, even though who are not necessarily well-educated, they kind of tend to gravitate toward that intensity. And so what

happens is we are producing just small amounts of acid and the body finally is able to, you know, produce less and less. So that's how we train aerobic, I'm sorry, that's how we train mitochondria in slow fibers. For fast fibers, it becomes something more interesting. be able to handle more traffic without producing as much acid is push them just to the edge of acidosis, just to the edge, and do it over and over and over. So Professor Verkhashansky, back in the 80s, that's the guy who invented plyometrics and so on. So he figured out, so here's what we do.

Imagine that you are sprinting. Let's say you're sprinting for five, seven seconds. And then you're just walking. And you're sprinting again. And you're just walking. But you're doing that, you're measuring your blood lactate, and it still keeps below the threshold. And you sustain that for, let's say, 40 minutes.

So think of this for a second. So you're sprinting very intensely, but you stop before you start burning. You get to the point of just light muscular fatigue, and you do it over and over and over. So if we talk about the coaching terminology, So if we talk about the coaching terminology, it's repeat training versus interval training. So what is interval training? Pardon me, Joe, I have to take a step to the side. So there are three types of rest periods between your sets,

whether you're running, lifting, whatever. So there's a stress period. That means that you will have a harder time to do the same thing or you will not be able to repeat it, right? That's interval training. There is the super compensation period, which means if you wait extra long time, you'll perform even better. Like, for example, if you do a set of pull-ups, wait for 15 minutes, you might

be able to do more 15 minutes later. And there is the ordinary period, which is just you'll be able to repeat it over and over. So that's in coaching speak, it's called repeat training, repeat versus interval. So we're trying to sustain that same level of performance for 40 minutes, let's say. sustain that same level of performance for 40 minutes, let's say. So that's an example of how we develop mitochondria and fast-reach fibers. And the same thing we can do with kettlebell swings, the same thing you can do working in a heavy bag and so on and so forth. Now, CrossFit, to circle back around to that, what do they do that you feel, you said there's a lot of good things they do, they get people moving, they introduce people to all these different exercise routines. What do you think they do wrong?

Joe, I don't want to pick on CrossFit. This so-called metabolic conditioning has been around since 1975, at least, when Arthur Jones coined that term, you know, the guy from Nautilus. That's when he would, people go through a circuit of machines going, you know, the guy from Nautilus. That's when he would people go through a circuit of machines going, you know, going one after the next. And I'm sure it's been around even before that. I would just do things totally different. So there's no point in me trying to criticize a different system. I'm just telling you this is what the science says,

experience says is how you should be doing it. And I think that there are a lot of great people in CrossFit, and I just wish power to them. You would just do it like what you're talking about with longer rest periods, different sort of training approach? Okay, let's say that you're training for the CrossFit Games. Let's say that's your goal, right? Let's say that you're training for the CrossFit Games. Okay. Let's say that's your goal, right? What you would do is name some CrossFit exercise.

Let's say wall ball, okay? Let's say they throw the ball against the wall. Good exercise. You do this thing with this wall ball for 40 minutes like I told you. And you can incorporate a second exercise in between, just in between. Stick it in there. So let's say you do a wall ball. You throw this a few times, walk around.

You do a set of push-ups, let's say 5 to 10 reps, and you do this for 40 minutes. Why 40 minutes? It doesn't always have to be 40 minutes, but pretty much we know if you can sustain it for 40 minutes, it's not going to be overly glycolytic. So we just kind of know that. I'll give you another example. Let's say burpees, right? You can do a burpee, but time it in a way that you can keep doing burpees for 40 minutes.

So you do a rep, walk around, do a rep, walk around, or even break it up so you do these different CrossFit specific competition specific exercises in this particular manner where you're able to sustain it again for 40 minutes then pardon me closer to the competition you start doing what in track is called peaking so when're running, let's say 400 meters or 800 meters, athletes, when they train in the off season, they train largely aerobically. Even though their distances are shorter, they're still not trying to trash themselves. But we do know that even if you develop your mitochondria, if you do it correctly, and suddenly you throw yourself in an

acid bath, your body is going to be unpleasantly surprised. So what you need to do is you need to model that. So what's going to happen is a couple of weeks before the competition, once a week, you would pretty much do something similar to the competition, like a WOD or whatever. And this will accomplish several things. One is it will upregulate your buffers. So your body produces baking soda pretty much to cancel out the acid. And it's a very rapid adaptation. It's very easy to get. Just two weeks, you got it. And in addition, you also upregulate your glycolytic enzymes, which you also want for competition. And again, they're very quick to develop, very quick to lose as well.

So finally, there is such a thing as heart and respiration rate modeling, which pretty much means that you're going to be sucking wind. And if you're not used to sucking wind, it's not going to feel good. Your diaphragm is going to spasm and not so good. So the purpose of peaking is to get yourself in kind of a simulated competition situation where the acid is high enough to make your body adapt to it, which adapts fast, and to make yourself comfortable with high heart rates and breathing. So that's the summary. That's pretty much how track athletes train for middle distance. What do you do now?

First of all, how old are you? 20. You look great. Thanks. Thank you. all, how old are you? 20. You look great. Thanks. Thank you. Great haircut, too. Thank you. Yeah.

I like it. How old are you, really? I'm working on being 20, Joe. Let's stick with that. Working on going back? Yeah. I'm 52. Are you older than me?

I'm working. We're both working on going back. How about we stick with that? I don't want to be judged based on my age. I understand. How often do you train these days? How often do I train? Almost every day.

Almost every day. Yeah. Just doing something differently. Yeah, doing something different. Mostly kettlebells or? Mostly for the last several years with, I suppose, last several months we're kind of experimental doing something else. But for the last several years,, I suppose, last several months, we're kind of experimental doing something else. But for the last several years, pretty much has been nothing but swings and dips, just one of my protocols.

It's a very particular anti-glycolytic protocol. Anti-glycolytic means, well, the kind of thing we just discussed. Just swings and dips? Yep. Why that combination? Just swings and dips. Yep. Why that combination?

Trying to be minimalist, pretty much, and trying to cover as much base as possible. Also trying to do things that my body likes. But the swings are, I would argue that the swing is the most beneficial exercise anybody can do. Because you will, again, you're training power, you're training your fast fibers, you're developing mitochondria in the fast fibers, you are training your conductive tissues, and, you know, you're getting your cardio as well. It's not, you know, it's not focused on that, but you have that side effect. The dip is, you know, kind of covers what's been missing. I like the idea of very minimalist general strength protocols that just have pretty much a hip hinge and a press.

That's a preference. What about chin-ups or things along those lines? Sure, it's great. I'll do them sometime. But you will find, to your surprise, that if you do swings powerfully and if you do dips or push-ups powerfully, chances are you're not going to lose your chin-ups. Really? Chances are, for most people. So here's something to keep in mind. What is general training versus specific training? So

in Russian sports science, there is a concept of general training versus special training. Special means sport-specific, pretty much. So the general training can be something else, gives you foundation for everything else. And it's characterized by high degree of carryover. So for example, if you decide to do barbell squats, you know for a fact that you're going to jump higher, you're going to run faster, you're going to hit harder, and so on and so forth. If you decide to go leg extensions, you can be sure that you're going to get better at leg extensions. That's it. So general exercises are the ones that are fairly simple to perform

and give you the greatest possible carryover. So that's what you do. And then after that, you start adding your more specific stuff. So let's say that, you know, you want to increase the number of chin-ups you want to do, well, you got to do chin-ups. So that's a specific practice. Absolutely.

So chin-ups are great. One of the things that I noticed that I thought was really weird was when I started doing kettlebells, things that I wasn't doing, I got stronger at. Yeah. Like I wasn't doing dips for a long time. Like I didn't do them for months and months.

And I was just doing kettlebells. I was just doing cleans, presses, snatches, swings, a bunch of different squat protocols, overhead squats. My dip went through the roof. Awesome. But it was so strange. It was like. We call this the what the hell effect.

So that type of carryover, some of it we can understand, some of it we can explain, some of it we can't. But, yeah, we've had the kettlebell swing, for example, increase the performance of world champion powerlifters and top marathon runners at the same time. It's a very bizarre thing. And, again, some of it I can decipher. Some of it I can't. But, hey, we'll take it, right? What do you think is going on there, if you had to guess? Okay.

So it's a number of different things. One is the type of breathing patterns that we use, for example, for endurance. That helps strengthen endurance. So we use this pressurized breathing that increases your strength on exhalation. So that pretty much increases your strength at any kind of exertion, whether it's punching or lifting.

And at the same time, we are also training our muscles that, inspiration muscles, inhalation muscles as well. And so developing these muscles is really important for your performance. So that's just one of the aspects. Another aspect is the, well, this is kind of interesting. Mr. Haney was a coach for Donnie Thompson.

Donnie Thompson is, he broke the 3,000-pound total record in powerlifting some years back. So I'd known Donnie for some time, so Donnie kept hurting his back and his deadlift was stuck. So we met. I showed him some kettlebell stuff. He started doing that, invented a couple of cool things of his own as well. So nine months later, he added about 70 pounds to his deadlift, 100 pounds to his bench press, set the total record.

And what his coach said, interesting, he said, kettlebells work the muscles without killing them. So it's kind of interesting. So it appears to be that the particular stimulus that you have, there's always a positive and there's always a negative when you're training, right? So there's something good that's happening. It's also something that's holding you back. You have to recover.

So it seems to be the nature of whatever things that happens within the muscle is positive more than negative. And I think part of it is very well-dosed ballistic loading. The body adapts to it extremely, extremely well. Part of it has to do with the particular training protocols we have because we produce the right amount of acid but not too much acid. A lot of trainees in the kind of pop fitness world, they're just enamored with burn.

Like, oh, go for the burn. Yeah. Fred Hadfield, Dr. Fred Hadfield, Dr. Fred Hadfield had a great line. So Hadfield was the first lifter to squat a thousand pounds in competition. And he was just a brilliant sports scientist, brilliant coach. He said, do you like burn? Light a match. And so people are just enamored with the burn. So again, the loading protocols we have is such that you have the right amount of that stimulation, not excessive. Because what happens, you have too much lactic acid. Right.

Here's what happens. Well, many, many things happen. We don't have the time to discuss this on the show. But most of them are really rather negative. Some positive, most of them rather negative. But for sure, it makes you more sore, for sure. People like to say, well, soreness is just caused by eccentric loading, and that's it. It has nothing to do with lactic acid.

Well, eccentric loading does contribute to that, absolutely, but acid does as well. It doesn't literally burn holes in your muscle, but it does stimulate lysosomes, something kind of eats up defective components of the cell to function. And you also have the spike of free radicals. And so that free radicals damage cell membranes as well. So with what we do, we try to, and plus there's other stuff happens, like body starts producing ammonia, which is toxic, And plus there's other stuff happening, like body starts producing ammonia, which is toxic, and depletes your ATP. So all those things start going, they're really sideways. So I think the nature of what you do with kettlebells, especially if you use the correct protocol, is you just optimize this metabolic environment to get exactly what you want.

But there are some other things too, like in your case for pressing and for dips, I challenge anybody to find a pressing exercise that's biomechanically more perfect for the shoulder than the kettlebell military press. It's perfect. Range of motion is perfect. Great stretch, great contraction, just absolutely perfect. So some of it we get, some we don't, but hey, what the hell effects, we'll take it, right? So what do you spend your time doing these days? Do you spend your time teaching seminars, coaching people, like writing books? What's the... All of the above.

So I am staying, I'm working on, I teach on special events for Strong First, which is my company, the School of Strength. So I teach seminars like Strong Endurance, Second Wind, and so on. I write books and I do some consulting. But what I really am trying to do is I'm trying to build Strong First, you know, the School of Strength. My vision is that more people want to become stronger and strength will become cool. Strength will become important. And I'd like to see that across decades, really. Do you think strength's cool now? Among a small portion of the population.

Do you think that can actually change? I hope so. I don't know. I hope so. Why would it change? Well, we're working on it. Maybe you'll do something about it. Who knows?

But, you know, a friend of mine said something interesting. A friend, John. He said, today, you have this very small, among young people, very small fraction of the population. This is super tough guys who are just competing in mma and so on these uh daredevils doing extreme sports and so on and you have the huge majority who are just sitting doing this or they go and do their little pilates thing or whatever they do their little interval session and And I just think society at large needs more just regular tough guys,

you know, like the old farmer or somebody like that. And I think that that needs to be more broad. And people need to understand that. I hate this word fitness. I just hate that. Because it kind of draws up images of just all sorts of weird equipment and weird exercises and foam rollers and all that stuff, you know. You don't like foam rollers?

It's not that I don't like foam rollers. It's a tool just like everything else. Right. Here's a problem. A guy comes in. He spends 45 minutes on some fancy, he calls it movement prep. What the hell is movement prep? And he's sitting around, you know, rolling his butt in the foam roller,

and then he does some other weird voodoo. And, you know, if he's injured and if he got a prescription from his physical therapist or doctor, power to you, buddy. But if not, and then finally he's going to spend 10 minutes doing some little nonsense, get his heart rate up, and between sets he's going to be updating his profile or whatever. So the foam roller, it's got a place. I'm even going to tell you, like, even doing any of the corrective work, something that you need to do, you should even separate it from your training.

Like, don't dishonor the lifting platform by throwing a foam roller on it. Just do it somewhere else. Really? Yeah. Don't dishonor? Don't. I thought it was just a natural thing to sort of work the kinks out. Fine.

Go work them out. Just do it somewhere else. Just don't do it by the platform, man. And don't ever step over a barbell. That's the most disrespectful thing you can do. Really? Absolutely. You can't step over a barbell?

No. In Russia, you'd get beaten up and thrown out of the gym. They beat you up. That seems excessive. You got to respect No. In Russia, you'd get beaten up and thrown out of the gym. They beat you up? Absolutely. That seems excessive. You got to respect your man. No, you do. Stepping over a barbell is disrespectful?

Disrespectful. You have to go around it. Of course. Of course. How do I not know this? Well, now you do. I'm trying to think what I do. I'm sure I've stepped over barbells. It will get even.

Nobody ever taught me that barbell will get you? Yeah, it will. Really? It will. Oh, okay okay i didn't know um when you see gyms you know well when you see gyms like mine that have all this equipment all these different things do you look at that as like that's excessive or unnecessary joel that depends that all depends on the circumstances we're talking about crossfit generally like we're talking about crossfit cross Generally, like we talked about CrossFit early, I think CrossFit gyms, I love CrossFit gyms.

I mean, they have a few things I think are not necessary, but not so many, but they have a lot of great stuff. High pull-up bars and platforms and so on and so forth. Those are essentials. But then beyond that is just whatever you add for yourself. And without knowing your training needs, your background, I don't really, I can't evaluate your gym. Right. But I can tell you that most people have too much stuff.

And that becomes a problem of choices. So you come in, you have this and this and that. So what are you going to do? Right. You're just confused. What is it called? The paradox of choice or something like that. Yes.

Yes. Now, what about injuries? How often do you get injured from this kind of exercise? I've had a number of injuries in my life, all their contact injuries, like, you know, fractures and things like that. They're not from lifting. From lifting, things were all tweaks. All of them were tweaks. But, you know, tearing ligaments by falling and things like that.

So, you've never had issues with tendinitis or anything? Yeah, I've had some of that. Some of that. Training pull-ups too heavy and things like that. Things happen. What do you do to combat that? That's exactly what I got mine from. Sure.

Well, first of all, provided in the absence of medical restrictions, you just work around things. So you find things to do that work the area without aggravating it. That's kind of the age old prescription for what you want to do. are allowing a lot of people to get back in the game, people who have been really injured before. And I can tell you that the techniques we use are strong first, kettlebell techniques and some other techniques. We have supporters amongst top healthcare professionals, people like Professor Stuart McGill,

who is a top spine biomechanist in the world and who works with the elite of the elite of athletes and also the most broken down people. Greg Cook, who's a top physical therapist, people like that. So we have a very good track record of keeping people healthy. I like this old expression from George, the Russian lion, Hockenschmidt, strength cannot be divorced from health. I think that's a great line. That's a great line. That's a great line.

Yeah. That's a great line. I specifically have something with my bicep tendon. I think I got it from two things. I got it from training, doing a lot of chin-ups, but also from archery. Because in archery, you're extending as you're drawing back at the same time, and this particular muscle gets overworked. Well, have Dr. Mark Chang.

I know you know Dr. Chang. Yeah, I know Dr. Mark. Help Doc check you out yeah yeah yeah i'll talk to him um what about your diet i'm an enemy of nutrition i don't know anything about it i don't like nutrition i hate it man what do you mean it's such a confusing thing i'm telling you in training it's really kind of funny about training in training like i do my thing you do your thing he does his thing but we kind of it's cool right right in, it's really kind of funny about training. In training, like I do my thing, you do your thing, he does his thing, but it's cool. Right.

In nutrition, it's like it's the only way. Right. And there are so many different variables that it's very hard to keep track of. And so I just feel sorry for people in that field. I really do. It's an awful thing. You have to constantly be reading papers. You have to constantly be studying. And it's still hopeless. Yes. It's just really do. It's an awful thing. You have to constantly be reading papers. You have to constantly be studying.

And it's still hopeless. Yes. It's just really hopeless. It's such a, you know, the body is a complex system, but I think this particular silo is worse than others. It's just so nonlinear, and it's just so difficult to figure this out. Biological variability is so confusing, too. With one person, the diet would be optimal.

The other person, it would be terrible. You know, I think what we should do is focus, whether it's in diet or in training, we should try to focus on things that are more universal. So, for example, in terms of longevity, Dr. Nick Lane, who is a mitochondrial researcher, he made a very interesting point. mitochondrial researcher, he made a very interesting point. He said, right now for longevity, so many efforts are directed at the genetic engineering, manipulation, whatever, fooling around, trying to make this really, really customized. And he said, you know, it's really interesting. Why don't we try to focus on something that's been known to work not just for any individual, it works for pretty much every species, which is

mitochondrial health. And he says that if we find a way of extending the lifespan to 130 years old, he's pretty sure it's going to come from mitochondrial health. And the stimuli for mitochondrial health are pretty much well known. Well, there may be some more down the road, but now we do know. So for example, in terms of nutrition, that's fasting. In terms of exercise, it is both aerobic steady state exercise and that type of work for fast fibers that I told you about, anti-glycolytic training, and there's cold. So those are the stimuli, the primary stimuli for the mitochondria.

So probably for nutrition, the same thing, they should look for more things that work for everybody. And then kind of on the margins, try to fool around with customization. What about you personally? What kind of diet do you follow? Back some years ago, I met a very interesting gent, Ori Hoffmechler, and he introduced me to

his so-called warrior diet. And I was not interested in any kind of a diet, any kind of a body comp changes. I'm just not into that kind of thing. But what attracted me is efficiency. He said, just eat once a day. And I thought, sure, I'll try. And this was long before the current intermittent fasting craze has begun. So I don't think Ori is getting quite the credit he deserves. So I pretty much just eat a large dinner and don't worry about it.

Do you snack at all during the dinner or anything? Nothing. It kills me, man. Really? Yeah. And this has always been the case with you? No. Does it snack?

It kills you? Or as you get older? No. Since I started this way of eating. So your body's acclimated to this one large meal. It did. It did. And I just feel great when I do that.

You got to slam a lot of calories down in one meal though, right? Yeah. What do you eat? Steak. Mostly. Of course. No chicken. Just say no to chicken. Say no to chicken? Just say no. Why? What's wrong with chicken Steak. Mostly. Of course. No chicken. Just say no to chicken.

Say no to chicken? Just say no. Why? What's wrong with chicken? Just lame. I don't like it. What don't you like about it? The taste or what it stands for?

It's a weak bird. It is a weak bird. Yeah. Can't even fly. Just say no to chicken. Really? Yeah. Wow.

What about fish? Well, my wife makes me. I'll eat it. Just say no to chicken. Really? Yeah. Wow. What about fish? Well, my wife makes me all eat it. Not out of choice. But mostly meat. Yeah. Yeah. But you understand what I'm telling you is just personal choices, not professional recommendations. I understand.

Totally out of my wheelhouse. But what about vegetables? Vegetables are just kind of a necessary evil. I do eat them. What's necessary about them? You know, this is an interesting point. Same doc, Nick Lane, did some research and summarized some other research. Like why are fruit and vegetables good for you?

And the party line is the antioxidants. And they almost convincingly concluded that's not the case. Because if you just try to isolate antioxidants, just give it to people, they don't have the same effect. So the current theory, it's quite, you know, and it's very likely it's true, is the plant toxins pretty much promote hormesis. Hormesis is pretty much resistance against stuff. So it's pretty much mild doses of poison that you take to make yourself stronger. So that's most likely what these things are good for. That's most likely what these things are good for. Yeah.

But anytime you hear about antioxidants this, antioxidants that, unless they're prescribed by a doctor to a particular patient, antioxidant supplementation might even cause cancer. So there's studies in that. Yeah. That's just not something to shotgun or go to the pharmacy, buy all this stuff. No. You should know exactly what you're taking them for and it should be a specific requirement. You should get the recommendation prescription from your doctor.

That is correct. Do you know anybody that follows a carnivore diet? What's a carnivore diet? Carnivore diet is very recent. Within the last few years, people are eating only animal products. Okay. few years people are eating only animal products okay and the the great benefit that some people have had is people with autoimmune issues like skin conditions eczema things along those lines it seems to cure it up people with severe arthritis it's i mean by cutting out all plant foods

completely some people with autoimmune issues have found great results. Some people have found great results with depression, but it's extremely controversial. It's also ideologically troubling for some people. Some people don't want you to eat meat at all,

so if you're eating only meat, this is terrible. You're sending a bad message. You think that's funny? Okay, it sounds like a fun diet, man. It sounds awesome. But I'm completely unqualified to comment on that. Right. But would you be interested in trying it?

Would I be interested in trying it? When I see some more research on that, I might. Not that I'm a fan of vegetables or anything. So I would consider it, yeah. You say vegetables with disdain you say vegetables like you understand it's a necessary evil you understand certain things it's like your foam roller joe but you know you just do it it's not you don't enjoy it that thing next to you the tim tam that's what i use instead of a foam roller that jackhammer right underneath

the tripod okay that's uh that was invented by uh mma coach farasa hobby okay and uh cool more effective so that's better than vegetables quick too better than vegetables i don't know but better than foam rower i think so but but that's what i'm saying like for a guy like you that talks about vegetables with such disdain i would think that it's a necessary evil you understand this is the thing i'm based on the current not well the docs will tell you all this stuff about fiber and this and that. That's supposedly good. And again, that's not my specialty. Right.

But this other point about hormesis, which is, again, building up your resistance. Yes. Resilience to things. So it's very possible vegetables are evil and the small doses of this evil make us stronger. Small doses. Well. Well. Well, tiny, like a quarter of your plate. Yeah, well, it should be more probably.

Probably. I don't know. It's just a funny subject with you. You have an interesting relationship. I told you, I'm an enemy of nutrition. I hate it. I just really hate it. I have a sympathy, deep sympathy for people who are in that line of work.

Now, do you supplement with multivitamins or creatine or anything along those lines? No, I don't. And, you know, creatine is definitely, supplementation is not my specialty either, but I can tell you creatine is one of those supplements that definitely has been tested extensively. And while not for everybody, it does work for a lot of people. It's also been proven as a nootropic, which I think is fascinating. It's very possible. It enhances cognitive performance.

Again, I don't have cognitive performance. You don't have any cognitive performance? I don't have any, so not my thing. What about vitamins? Do you take any vitamins? No. There's no evidence. And again, if you would get a prescription from your doc that you're short on this, then

you should. This is essentially not your wheelhouse. Absolutely not. What about sleep? I'm a big fan. How much do you get? I get a lot more than most people would. I try to get nine hours.

Oh, great. I'm convinced based on the research that I've seen that that is very important. Yeah, I'm convinced of that as well. I find a big difference in my performance, both mental and physical, when I have a lot of sleep. But what disturbs me, we have this guy on, Dr. Matthew Walker, who studies sleep extensively. And he's a sleep expert. There's a direct correlation between a bunch of diseases and people not getting sleep. Heart attacks.

You know, heart attacks jump up some number of worldwide, something in the neighborhood of 20-plus percent when they do daylight savings time and people lose an hour of sleep. Well, that's the most idiotic idea that I hope that goes away. I hope it goes away, too. I was just in Arizona, and one of the first things I said to them on stage, I was like, I'm so happy that you guys don't follow this stupid shit it's so dumb like oh we jump forward we move back we do this we do oh it's very cute yeah the time is the time if it's dark out early then it's dark out early why is that so troubling for people and i think i've read somewhere that

messes up the cows if they start milking the cows at an hour later or earlier, the cows are all unhappy and what have you. Well, it increases heart attacks, something in the neighborhood of 20 plus percent. And then when you gain an hour sleep, there's a subsequent decrease in heart rate, heart attacks rather. That's very similar as well, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 percent. Well, the point I think is this, that we're all very busy. There's a lot of stuff going on. Everybody has limited bandwidth. But trying to save on sleep, that's not the right place.

I completely agree. Now what about do you do anything to recover like cryotherapy or any of those things, ice baths? Right now, no, because it's just not logistically, not very convenient. But yeah, I used to cut a hole in the ice and go dipping in there when I lived in cold places and have done things like that.

Russia has a long history of a practice called tempering. And that goes back, I don't know, centuries, which is pretty much cold exposure. They figured out that does promote your nonspecific resistance to a lot of things, colds and so on and so forth. And more recent studies, they found out that pretty much increases your resistance also, so free radical damage and so on. A way, so cold is really good.

Definitely is really good if you have a chance to do that other things that are very good if they're used correctly is hypoxia hypercapnia and pretty much breathing less but doing in the correct manner but there's something that you need to keep in mind when you start getting really fancy in all these different recovery modalities, all these different supplements and massages and whatever, whatever. That was also, I believe, Professor Vorobyov who made a point of that, that accelerating the recovery, first of all, accelerating the rate of adaptation is just not normal. And again, it's going to be less stable. And second, that just makes your body less able to handle it by itself. So it's like spoiling yourself with it.

I think, so again, not my specialty, but I think it should be used judiciously. And I also think that too many people are starting to get into the fancy cryotherapy this or fancy supplement or machine that before they've just taken care of basics. So what are the basics if you're, let's say that you are, okay, for an athlete or for a normal person. So what are the basics for health for a normal person? Obviously we discussed earlier, you want to have type two fibers and mitochondria in them when you're older. So that means you've got to lift heavier fast. There's no other way. There's older. So that means you've got to lift heavy or fast. There's no other way. There's no third way. And you just have to find exercises that your body

can tolerate. The next thing is obviously you have to do something for your heart. It's not that much. So whatever lame government guidelines are out there, usually that will suffice for that. Usually that will suffice for that. Then today we know about sleep, obviously. And today we also know about other ways of promoting this overall resilience. And again, cold, things like cold. Things like vegetables. But strength for the athlete. vegetables, but strength for the, for the athlete.

So I guess if you get your, if you get your dial, dial your eating, and again, what is the correct eating? I have no clue, but I tell you what, there is probably a couple of things that most experts would agree on. They'll probably tell you lay off the sugar and eat some green vegetables, whatever. Probably everybody, except for those carnivore guys will agree on that. So get your nutrition dialed in, get your sleep dialed in, then get strong. So I named my organization Strong First because that's the primary quality. So Professor Matveev, he made a point that that's the mother of all qualities.

Upon the foundation of strength, you build endurance, you build speed, you build power, you build resilience, everything. So get strong, have your joint mobility in order, have some amounts of endurance. The minimum, if you just do it for health, again, those government guidelines are enough. More if your sport requires that. Then get great coaching. And then when you're almost a contender, then you can start fooling around with all the additional stuff on the periphery. And those things are really, first of all, they're really expensive.

Second of all, some of these modalities. But second of all, you might get a microscopic fraction of a percent of improvement to your performance. And if you're training for the Olympics, it's absolutely worth it. But if you're not, you got to consider the point of diminishing returns. So like, what are you doing with your life? What are you spending your time on? And the point of diminishing returns happens in everything.

So it's again, if you just want to be healthy, you don't want to hammer away in just one thing like, oh, I just want to build up my deadlift to its highest level, or I just want to run the fastest 5k. You train your deadlift, you do some running, you eat healthy, maybe you add some cold exposure, maybe you add some hypoxia, maybe eat your vegetables, you know. So adding each successive thing, you get to the point of diminishing returns. But if you decide to be a specialist, you still have to do this general work. What about sauna? Great.

Use it? Sauna is great for a lot of different reasons. Right now, normally, they just talk about things like microcirculation which is all good heat shock proteins which is all very good but there's also something else there is a very interesting phenomenon that it's called armad what does this stand for something about acute react relaxation reaction to stress. I don't recall the acronym exactly how it goes. But hypothermia, hyperthermia, heat is amongst other stimulus, hypoxia as well, that allows you to develop a reaction in your body that in response to stress,

you're going to be more relaxed. So this is kind of an interesting thing. So it's definitely a healthy thing, definitely. Well, listen, man, we've taken up a lot of your time, and I appreciate you very much, and I appreciate all the work that you've done. And like I said, I've been a big fan for a long time. My pleasure, Joe. If someone wants to find a gym that follows your protocols, where's the best way?

Go to strongfirst.com. First is spelled out. And we do have a director of accredited gyms in the US and elsewhere, and also our certified instructors as well. And your most recent book? My most recent book is The Quick and the Dead, Total Training for the Advanced Minimalist, but that is for the advanced minimalist. So I presume that's not for the majority of listeners. So I also about the same time came out with an updated edition of my Kettlebell Simple and Sinister. And that I believe, firmly believe, is the book for most people to most people, whether it's Grandma, Betty or Ranger Joe, that to train on, to get started on.

All right. Beautiful. Well, thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Thank you. All right.

Bye everybody.