The Joe Rogan Experience - #1423 - Andrew Doyle

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

Andrew Doyle is a British comedian, playwright, journalist, political satirist and is creator of the fictitious character Titania McGrath. The new book "Woke: A Guide to Social Justice" by Titania McGrath is now available: https://amzn.to/36X2GoG

three two one this is your unveiling okay people know that people know yeah that's it first of all titiana so this is i should have chosen an easier name like no one can get it's titania titania because she's named after the queen of the fairies in midsummer night's dream tell everybody your real name my real name is andrew doyle do you have an issue with people now knowing that Tatiana or Titania? Titania. Yeah, she totally eclipsed me. I don't like I don't have. I'm basically not alive anymore.

It's all about her. You know? Well, I can't remember how I found out about you on Twitter, but just laughing really hard at something that you wrote that was so close. You do such a good job of like blurring the line between outrageously woke and satire yeah it's that thing of trying to there you are try who's the girl trying to oh there okay yeah so the girl is a composite of four different women well that's good put together because i was worried about you know i don't want to get sued oh for sure yeah so it's not a real human but you know radical intersectionalist that's it selfless and brave by my book activist healer but also i love

that she's dead pound because it means that she's sort of look every time i post something it's like there's this po-faced woman staring at you daring you yes don't you dare sort of challenge me she could be mean in a way that i'm not so that's kind of funny you end up inhabiting this character who just isn't like you and I do end up thinking like her and I've even dreamt as her and that sounds like a lie but I have so that's pretty scary I have you know

she'll have to go eventually because I can't like I can't deal with that kind of there's a psychosis isn't it well she's so big now you have 420,000 followers it's weird because it happened really quickly I guess it's because It's a psychosis, isn't it? Well, she's so big now. You have 420,000 followers. It's weird because it happened really quickly. I guess it's because there's a whole cohort of people out there who are just sick of this stuff. Oh, yes.

Well, it's partly that, but also partly because people still fall for her all the time. People constantly think it's real. Oh, all the time. When I retweet you, one of my favorite things to do is read people getting upset at you. Like, that is ridiculous. You think that that's why Trump was winning. Right. Never ceases to amaze me how angry people get on Twitter with, you know, even with legitimate causes. It's like, but I watch that and I think it's fun because I can satirize the left and the more liberal side of things through her.

But then I can argue with the right-wing Trump supporters and stuff, and I can mock them as well. So you get to have a go at the extremes. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm so shocked that people still think she's real, though, even after all this time. It's not shocking. You're close enough.

There's plenty of people, and I'll point you to a few of them that I follow. I follow some people where I just bookmark them so they don't know that I follow them. Yeah. And just some of them are so goddamn fucking crazy. And yet, I keep getting told, this is like a straw man. These people don't really exist. Oh, they exist. They do.

I even once did a, do you remember there was a tweet by, is it Rosanna Arquette who's really, really woke? Rosanna Arquette, the actor. I think so. So she did a tweet about how ashamed she was a tweet by, is it Rosanna Arquette? Who's really, really woke. Rosanna Arquette, the actor. I think so. So she did a tweet about how ashamed she was of being white. Is that her? That was her. I think it was her. And then I just cut and paste that tweet and put it out.

Is it Patricia Arquette? Might have been. It's one of the Arquettes. Yeah. But I did the same tweet. I literally cut and paste it as Tatani because I thought like, and some people got it that I'd just taken this other viral tweet and some people got the point i was making um but it yeah it's close to some of them are nuts yes like like frighteningly so

to to a point that it's it's a cult-like behavior it's like it's it's it's like i think that the basic principles of you know standing up against racism sexism homophobia all that stuff is great yes i think the the woke movement isn't that it's a kind of weird cultish uh pseudo-religious thing that is beyond that so that you're no longer allowed to make mistakes you can't be redeemed there's no there's no it's it's it's got all those hallmarks yes you know it's like when they are early christians used to burn people out of love you know it's that it's that thing and that's why we get this kind of council culture stuff and i guess that's why i want to maybe that's why it's popular because people are sick of treading around on eggshells worried about being misinterpreted or even worried about fucking up and making a

mistake i mean what's wrong with saying something that's every now and then maybe you do say the wrong thing well it should be fine if you're a human being but part of it is also that things are written down right right and then when things are written down you can see them over and over again if you made a mistake it just said something in normal human conversation which is how we're supposed to communicate how we normally communicate yeah it just comes and goes yeah you know but when it's written down then it becomes something different but it's more than that isn't it because it's i'll, then it becomes something different. But it's more than that, isn't it? Because it's, I'll give you an example. So there was a guy who was the editor of a cookery magazine in the UK.

And a vegan freelance journalist emailed him saying, I'd love to do a thing about vegans. And he replied and made some joke about, yeah, you can do something about how we'll force feed the meat and we'll make them eat each other and all. Stupid flippant thing. Rather than saying, I was really offended by that. Can we talk about about it i don't think that's appropriate for you to email a freelance journalist she screenshot the thing put it on twitter made a thing of it and he had to step down so i think that's the difference is whereas like saying to someone look calling out a mistake or calling someone out for something they've done that you perceive to be bad that's that's all well and good but when you're using it to advertise how virtuous you are and how you're able to take someone down for the mistake that

they made, that troubles me because then it's no longer really about the issue. Well, I think what we're dealing with when you're talking about woke culture, and I love that you made this comparison to radical religion because I think they're the same patterns. i think human beings have patterns that they follow and you could say that you're not religious but you follow these extremely rigid ideologies that don't allow for any variation whatsoever you they they force 100 compliance and if you're not 100 in compliant they will attack you and you can't be woke enough. One of the things you find in religion is

people will, especially in the more radical, dangerous and scary religions, they'll turn on each other. They'll turn on each other for not being pious enough. Yeah, all the time. Yeah, that happens in woke culture. One of the scariest things that happens to these woke people is when the woke people attack them.

Oh, yeah. And when it happened with J.K. Rowling yeah. And what happened with J.K. Rowling? Yes. What happened with J.K. Rowling because she defended it was a British case. It was the woman who was fired from her job because she posted some tweets saying that she didn't believe that sex was a mutable characteristic. She said there are men and women and you can't change it. Now, that's her opinion and she's entitled to have it. But the judge in the UK ruled that, no, that's not a legitimate opinion to hold

and you can be fired for that. So J.K. Rowling simply said, no, that's not fair. It's her opinion. And they went for her. Even though she's so woke because she keeps retrospectively deciding that her characters are gay

and all sorts of stuff like that. Dumbledore's gay. And she got... they got after her they went after her before that as well because in the Fantastic Beasts sequel with Dumbledore

as a young man there's not much overt homosexuality and so the LGBTQ community was saying why isn't it more I mean what do they want

like double penetration what do they want with that like they want a full on wizard gay sex scene and she got she got the brunt of that you know it's like this doesn't and i hate that so i don't think you don't need validation by seeing wizards making out well unless that's your vision i mean if her

vision was i mean if she wanted some radical sexual aspect to her story i don't think it was but if she wanted it no it wasn't yeah if she wants to write wizard porn that's fine i mean if that's look i mean it doesn't even necessarily have to be porn but i'm i don't think you should ever try to alter someone's artistic vision yeah when someone is a genius like jk rowling i mean think about the stuff that she's created yeah harry potter look the harry potter series speaks for itself just in the sheer popularity of it for someone someone to step in and say, you're doing it wrong when it comes to gay sex, everything else is great. Or any.

Or any, yeah. You're a fucking genius with everything but gay sex. Also, I don't, like, it's not her responsibility to be the ambassador for gay sex. And also, you know, I think it's really patronizing to gay people to say that they need to see this. Yeah. But that is now like a standard thing

in art and movies and stuff so like you saw that with tarantino with once upon a time in hollywood and he someone asked him a journalist was saying you know like why why doesn't the female character why doesn't margot robbie's character talk more well he's made an artistic decision yeah he hasn't thought let's just the female character i don't care about that character so let's let's have a silent most of the time. She's making a point about sort of restoring Sharon Tate to an iconic kind of status

that she was denied by the Manson family. It's a very interesting artistic decision. And if you watch a film like that and you go away and all you can think is, oh, the women didn't speak enough, there wasn't enough diversity, then you're not engaging with the artwork, you know? Right.

Like we had it in the BBC, did a review of Game of Thrones by series by series where they judged each episode as good or bad on the percentage points of how much female characters speak. So don't do reviews anymore. They just have a pie chart.

It's weird to me. It's almost a complete misunderstanding of what the creative endeavor is all about. Sure. I mean, look, did Thelma and Louise do a disservice by not having Brad Pitt talk more?

Well, exactly. That's a good example. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. It's crazy. No,

it was a great movie because it was a great movie. It's just an artistic vision doesn't have to adhere to these ideas of, of inclusiveness and diversity. It just doesn't. An artistic vision is supposed to... If you write about a bunch of Asian kids that want to be hip-hop artists, you have no obligation to have white people in it.

You have no obligation to have anyone else in it. You could have... Look, you could have a movie with one character through the whole movie. You have no obligation. Of course. It's an artistic vision. But I've been thinking about this a lot because i think this gets to the heart of what is the problem with the woke culture and what their the the foundation of their belief system is

and it's to do with this idea of what do you hear it all the time power structures in society you know that there's that there's this kind of yeah uh and that's why they think there needs to be more representation and things like that in these films because they think that influences culture and influences people and maintains and sustains power and everything like that yeah so that's why they're that's why they're doing it and i think it's just a false premise ultimately it is a false premise and the people that are doing it and the people that are perpetuating this false premise are not doing good work that's another part of the problem if you want to be a woke artist good fucking luck good fucking luck yeah because your

stuff's probably gonna suck because you're thinking about that more than you're thinking about the singular artistic vision that you might have you're trying to put it through the filter of intersectionality and all these different variables that you have to take into consideration of how you're going to be criticized and what you're going to like as soon as you compromise yourself yeah in any end you you you open up the door for mediocrity and it doesn't sell well like people and i think that's simply because people hate being patronized you know yeah it's like the was that expression go get woke go broke yeah yeah yeah sure exactly i mean when i saw that last star wars film and you got the lesbian kiss, like a two second of lesbian kiss. And I know what they do.

And I don't care about that sort of stuff. You know, by all means, make a full lesbian Star Wars film. Like, I don't care about that. But you feel hectic. Like, you feel like someone standing over your shoulder saying, you see that? That is what you're supposed to support. You're all homophobes. But that's good.

That's what they're basically saying. They're saying you're all bad people. You're all homophobes. But that's good. That's what they're basically saying. They're saying you're all bad people. They don't trust human beings. They don't trust society. And they're rabid. They're rabid about their need for compliance. Everyone must comply. There's a crazy one that I'll send it to you, Jamie,

because I was sending it to a bunch of people about them calling for Captain Marvel to to step down right okay why because uh let me find it for you hold on a second because it's it's so fucking ridiculous they want captain marvel to step down and be replaced by a gay woman of color right yeah because i don't i mean is that how the comic book was originally was the original comic book a gay woman? Well, so, no, I'm not a comic book fan, but I know that this is something that's particularly affected comic books in terms of Thor and Iron Man. Okay, yeah.

We need Brie Larson to step down from her role to prove she's an ally of social justice and ensure a gay woman of color plays the role. Let Monica, the original female and all caps black captain marvel instead of whitewashing characters for the benefit of the straight white men running disney first of all disney is run by a woman this should be clarified i'm almost positive the ceo of entertainment at disney is a woman is that right pretty sure that's true yeah they've still got walt on ice though haven't they he's still yeah they got his head right okay is that no but the the entertainment the ceo of uh there's someone who runs the film division whitney cummings is explaining it to me

about how ridiculous it is but isn't brie larson whoever makes the decision isn't brie larson super woke like she's got a reputation for being incredibly woke. Not woke enough if you're white. But she was the one who said that she wanted to ban male journalists from her press junkets. Maybe it's Fox. Either way, I don't think you can that reminds me of when

you know Camille Paglia, the academic Go back to that. She tries to ban male writers from press conferences Brie Larson made a speech about how she felt that there were too many male critics assessing her work and she wanted to actually implement some kind of strategy to prevent

that from happening, yeah, it was all over the press so she's about as woke as it gets That's not woke enough she needs to step down, because if you're really woke you'll step down and show that you're an ally for social justice and give up those millions of dollars to some other person but by the way you know tell the studio that you're gonna do that like they're not gonna fucking just decide oh you want us to cast a black gay woman let's do that and does it matter which black gay woman you know does it have to

be someone who can act maybe the gayest blackest woman you can find because if you have like a half black and kind of gay like pansexual woman yeah that's not that's a part of the patriarchy right that's okay that's a problem isn't it it's like when obama fucks up people blame it on his white side you know it's like you know because he's 50 white he's 50 problematic yeah you can never have the kind of purity the example i was giving with camille pilot because she's an academic who was asked to step down by her own students and they said you need to reply to the faculty you need to replace her with a queer woman of color like who but why does a woman have to be queer why if you want a woman of color like you see this is the thing it never ends you can't be woke enough and once it gets to queer woman of color and they've got one of those ago you know what you should make room for a transgender.

And what if the queer woman of color is really bad at her job too bad it doesn't matter to adapt you need to help her right understand the society is fucked her over and that's why she's not as good as Camille Pagli was. So, again, it gets back to one of their fundamental premises that they don't believe in objective truth. They think objective truth. This is a postmodern thing, right? They don't believe in it. It's also these people that you're talking about, they haven't built these structures that they want to tear down. Right. They're not a part of the construction of these enormous film studios, enormous entertainment empires. Yeah.

Enormous film studios, enormous entertainment empires. Yeah. So they want to step in to something that not only have they not built, but they're not capable of building. Right. Because they're wrapped up in this fucking wacky ideology that doesn't allow you to be creative. So how do we get out of it? That's a good question. That's why I brought you in here.

I was hoping you'd know. Well, I've got ideas. Yeah? I've got a few ideas, right? Okay. Because I think we're reaching a kind of tipping point. Like I say, there's so many people who are really sick of it, you know? And you can't argue with a social justice activist. You can't because they don't believe. They think that any knowledge that you think you have is based on your background and the power structures and all that sort of stuff, right?

The impression Olympics. Exactly. So none of it is authentic enough and um it really foxes them though when they end up like talking to a queer woman of color say who agrees with me and then it fucks up their entire position you know it really annoys them um it's uh but then yeah so you can't argue with them i thought maybe satire would be a good approach that you know because if they're not prepared to listen to reason you can mock them. But it just makes them really angry. I've had so much venom for mocking this.

But of course when you mock the priests they get angry. That's the point. And they don't feel like you have any right to make fun. Which is for me as a comedian one of the most offensive things a person can say it also makes you want to do it more right yeah it's that's what it's about yeah we're

we're the the mockery police yeah we come in and mock when things are fucked up but then because they believe in the power structures what they're saying is you're punching down down yeah right you're punching down but well arguably with woke people you're not punching down you're not no that's always been my argument because for one thing i think you can punch down if you want sure you know who gets to say but i think the the the woke people have incredible power and they're bullies and they're bullies they they pile up together they go after you they'll do it for days on end and attack your twitter and attack you and write articles about you.

I've experienced it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, you just treat preaching to the choir. Yeah. You're preaching to them. And this whole idea that you can't punch down in comedy is the dumbest shit I've ever heard in my life.

Look, Sam Kinison, who's one of the greatest comics of all time, one of his best bits was about starving babies in Africa. You can't punch any lower. No. Did you ever see that bit? I didn't. I remember Kinison talking about how comedy attacks. That was something he, you know. That's his style for sure.

I mean, everybody's comedy is different. Comedy does whatever it is that is funny, whether you are Stephen Wright, who's an absurdist yeah or whether you're sam kinnison who attacks yeah both brilliant but kinnison had a bit about those commercials where you would see sally fields on tv like save the children yeah these children survive on just a dollar a day if you could just send money and he goes you're sitting there eating your food you cooked yourself and this starving kids on tv and you get all bummed out and you're like hey why don't you feed them you're standing right next to him and he has this whole bit it just occurred to us we just drove 5 000 miles with the food we realized it wouldn't be world hunger a few people would

move where the food is you live in a fucking desert and he has this whole crazy bit and it's like one of those bits that he did in 1986 and i mean at the time there was nothing like it yeah you know like in this fucking rabid former preacher genius comedian is punching down as far as you can yeah except you know like he's he obviously doesn't think it's funny that babies starve to death right it's comedy but this is that literal minded thing that means that that sort of stuff can't work anymore. Yes. Well, it can work. Actually, it does work.

I see comics do that sort of stuff all the time, but they're not going to get very far televisually or that kind of thing. Well, for now, but you can if you go on YouTube. There's a lot of comics that are bypassing the... Well, Netflix gives you a lot of leeway, but only if you're famous. Yeah, exactly. You can get away with a lot of shit if you're famous you're famous yeah you can get away with a lot of shit if you're famous like chappelle can basically get away with a lot of shit they've

never told never netflix has never told me what to do right um but i know they do if you're not a name you know i know i've had friends that they've they've told to cut bits out like joey diaz had a hilarious me too bit about terry cruz yeah about you know terry cruz who's a fucking super athlete you know and some guy grabbed his dick and he me too this guy for grabbing his dick some drunken agent yeah whatever it was you know in a joke way i don't know what happened i have no idea what happened yeah but joey had this hilarious bit about it and they wouldn't let him do it right and they're like that's you're you're making fun of sexual assault victims like but do you think in any world that terry cruz who is a

fucking tank of a man was actually scared of this guy like this is come on this is not a victim in the sense of like a helpless person right i get the fact that this guy was an agent maybe had some power over his career but the way joey said it was a positive it was talking about all the positive attributes of terry crew it was putting a spin on yes and what was this for this was for a tv show for netflix and they actually stepped in and said they were they didn't want the backlash they didn't want to deal with the bullshit so i wondered about that because i like when i was watching the comedy at the store the other day here and i just thought it feels different here like it feels like live comedy here people do go for whatever targets they want we go for it because we realize this

is the last stand right this is like the ghost dance for wild comedy because we don't i get the impression in the uk it's not you know the gigs i've been playing there isn't that quality about it there's you need ricky gervais to be there all the time right there's only one of him yeah but that's the problem like he's more of those so rich and and he he doesn't have a boss and he can do whatever he wants exactly you know it's those insulated it's those younger comics right who who are coming up and they self-censor because they're worried about what they're going to say you know that's that's basically what it is i mean i had an argument with a young comic and uh and she said to me you know you don't understand because I go up to comics.

I have to go up to comics every night after they're set and explain to them why they shouldn't tell these jokes and why they, you know. This was a serious conversation. I thought, this isn't for you. And she was a comic? Yeah. Stand-up, yeah. This was a comic in a group. So I used to run this, like, workshop for young stand-ups, and I can't do it anymore because one of them complained.

This is serious, right? So one of them complained to the boss. It's a very famous theater in London. And one of them complained and said that one of the jokes I tweeted as Titania made her feel unsafe. And then, therefore, I was told I couldn't do this course anymore because i developed an unsafe environment oh you made them feel unsafe yeah by a joke dangerous that wasn't even my it was to tell it was a character must have been a great joke you really a fucking great joke yeah so good you made someone feel unsafe yeah like they were laughing so hard yeah they're like i could die yeah i could die from laughter but that's that conflation of words

and violence isn't it? This idea that... That is a problem. And I think... What really scares me about that is I think they believe it. It's disingenuous. Do you think it's disingenuous? Yes, it's clearly disingenuous. But it's the orthodoxy, right?

This is what they're pushing. They're pushing that words are violence and that you can be violent with words. So that's interesting because i i think you're probably right in a lot of cases you know when they say like uh if they see a certain image or something it makes them feel like they've been physically attacked or they hear a certain phrase or whatever and they support each other in this nonsense but then i see some of them by bawling their eyes out crying and shaking and i think that's an authentic emotion right so

maybe it's disingenuous in some cases but maybe some people have actually, and this would scare me more, that some people have actually convinced themselves that it is a kind of form of violence. I'm sure that's true as well. I'm sure that's true as well and I think there's, this is, again, parallels really crazy religious people. Right. Right?

Yeah. I mean, there's people that will cut off fingers for you know slights and against their religion they'll flog themselves i mean people do horrendous things to themselves as punishment right so then it comes if we are going to go with the the religious motif it comes about sort of de-radicalizing people from this belief system it seems like this is a part of being a human, that there are pathways that people go down. Like, just to get away from that, here's one. The dictator, right?

The horrific dictator. When someone gets into a position of power over someone, whether it's a CEO of a company, before the Me Too movement, it's out of control, and he's trying to fuck all of his employees and treats people like shit and sexually harasses everybody. God damn it. That seems like an archetype, right?

It's like this archetype seems to almost be unavoidable with certain types of human beings. Sure. Well, I think you get that with the woke thing and that the structure of wokeness is just a scaffolding for this sort of antiquated, not antiquated, excuse me, this ancient system of behavior, this religious system. And it slides right into that. And I don't think it's a coincidence that most woke people are atheists because this is their alternative for radical religion. I think that's probably right that uh tom holland wrote as a historian he wrote a book recently called dominion he makes this case that with the absence of christianity in comes wokeness that it one sort of just just follows

from the other in a kind of because they have the similar need to proselytize to convert yes the similar intolerance of anyone who who might not perceive the world in the way that you do, you know. So it has all the same hallmarks. But also that makes me nervous about it because it's not then about persuading someone out of it because you can't persuade someone that God doesn't exist. Right. It's based on faith. It's based on something that's intangible. Yes.

And particularly when those same people have such power in the major institutions, right? I've always said the woke people are the minority. Most people are sick of it. Most people are fucked off with it. Yeah. But they seem to occupy all these major roles in television, in the arts, in media, in journalism, in the law. And therefore they have disproportionate clout. Yes.

Academia is a big one. Academia is, that's where the problem started. Right. And then you convert children to think that way. Yeah. You get an impressionable 17-year-old who's a freshman in college and they find this and it resonates with them. And also they can develop social clout by adhering to this religion the same way a radical you know fill in the blank with whatever christian whatever whatever sect of religion you'd like to

compare it to it's very similar you the more pious you are the more adherent you are to the dogma to this rigid ideology the more clout you get and and and worse than that in universities because you won't pass the course if you you know you and what's interesting is it's not a kind of um underhand thing on the part of the scholars who are now activists right they are open about this they say quite explicitly you know we we are activists as well as scholars which means they're pushing a political agenda which of course it didn't used to be that the academia used to be about objectivity and presenting different ideas and and getting to the truth but they already know the truth yes and they're gonna they're gonna ensure that you

wouldn't even get on the course if you didn't sort of basically subscribe it's the same sort of pattern that you see in dictators they're a dictator in terms of intellectual pursuits right they're dictating to these children how you must think and behave. And because of their position of power, because of their education, their grasp of the English language, the fact that they speak so eloquently and passionately about this, they're incredibly convincing and charismatic, a lot of them. And it's effective. Yes. And that's why so many people come from that and so overwhelmingly left-leaning yeah oh hugely exactly it's a real problem on the left yeah

it's really weird to me that i've suddenly most of my friends now are right-leaning that's come out of nowhere i wouldn't have expected that at all but it's a shift over the last few years and it's the reason why trump is in office yeah 100 it is this is this is why when people tell me you the culture war is like a sideshow it doesn't matter i'm like it wins and loses elections this stuff you know like it's not a sideshow it really isn't like you know when what was it the other day was elizabeth warren saying that she's going to get a trans student pupil like a 15 year old to veto her one of her um appointees right secretary of education something like that something like that but it was a nine-year-old i was a nine-year-old i thought to veto her, one of her appointees, right? Was it Secretary of Education? Yeah, something like that.

Something like that. But it was a nine-year-old. Oh, was it a nine-year-old? I thought it was like 15-year-old. Pull that up. I mean, either way, that's not good, right? No, either way, it's not good. It's madness. And most people think that's madness,

and most people think it's weird. Like, in the UK, Jeremy Corbyn started announcing his pronouns. Yes, I saw. Let me tell you, I don't know if you know what Jeremy Corbyn looks like. No one's confused about his pronouns. I know. No one has ever been confused. He's got a fucking beard.

Women can have beards, what are you saying? Oh, I didn't know. They also can have penises and men can have their periods. Yeah, but Jeremy Corbyn's never identified as a woman as far as I'm aware. It's so dumb. You know, it doesn't fit with also that old school socialist because he's proper old school lefty socialist. The woke stuff doesn't fit well with those people it doesn't work it feels weird you know well the old school lefty socialist is more about compassion and spread and income equality it's money yes all

about money you see this is it what what this this is actually one of the reasons why i wanted to tell you to be oh here we go oh no so this was the the round of applause that the nine-year-old transgender child got so the child stood up and said i that the nine-year-old transgender child got. So the child stood up and said, I'm a nine-year-old. And Elizabeth Warren sort of instigated this big round of applause for that. Right. There was something else this week, though. It was a 15-year-old.

It was someone that she decided she'd choose. Yes, she'd choose. I think it was the Secretary of Education, but I might be wrong. What is it? It's the Secretary of Education. It's a quote from this. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah. Which I, be wrong. What is it? It's the Secretary of Education. It's a quote from this. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah. Which I, you know.

What is it? Do you find the quote? Well, yeah. Here it goes. Oh, it's the wrong story, though, so. Oh, it is the wrong story? This is the one from October. The Secretary of Education who both believes in public education and believes in.

Yeah, but no, she was going to veto. She was going to give the transgender student veto power. Yeah. See if you can find that. No, she was going to veto. She was going to give the transgender student veto power. Yeah. And help. See if you can find that. I mean, for one thing, I wouldn't give a 15-year-old, trans or otherwise, any kind of political input. No, and definitely not a 9-year-old. Any kid, god damn it.

When you're 15, you don't know what the fuck is going on. You've only been alive for a few months. Exactly. You really have no idea what's happening. I mean, your frontal lobes aren't developed, are they? No. Until you're like 25 or something. In fact, let's raise

the voting age. Don't let them make it 30. Well, then the real problem would be war. Bill Maher talked about this story on his most recent episode of his show. Yeah.

And so it got up in the news again. No, but there was a legitimate news story about Elizabeth Warren talking about... In that quote, it says that Warren indicated she wants Jacob to help her pick her –

Oh, I see. So it's a repeat of the same story. Okay, okay. So they just sort of repeated it and got a headline out of it. I mean I get why that advertises her commitment to inclusivity and diversity. But 99% of people are thinking, I don't care about that. Why don't you talk about the fact that I can't afford anything? And that's why if you are truly left-leaning and if you truly care about getting a left-leaning government in power, you need to make it about

class again. Because this is one of the reasons why, like Titania, I wanted her to be posh and rich, you know, because they're so rich, these people, predominantly. They've got so much money. Because if you have real problems, this is not what you concentrate on. You're not worried about manspreading. Who worries about that stuff? Someone on the poverty line doesn't care about this stuff. They don't care about being represented by the skin color of...

Some poor working class mother who can't afford anything isn't going to care that Hillary Clinton's in the White House. She's not going to think, oh, well, that's okay. Then I'm represented. That's great. Well, some of them would. Some of them would like it because it will make them feel like a woman can get by. I get that.

And get through. That's the aspirational message that it sends. I think that's fine. But you're still stuck on the poverty line with nothing. You know, it's like poor blackicans didn't do very well under obama it's it this stuff is tokenism when what you should be doing sort of directing at inequality and it's a it's a it's a big problem both here and in the uk you know we we've got a left movement i mean we saw it with brexit you know like the reason why so many working class people voted for brexit and indeed voted against labor in the last election

is because they're not being, no one's looking out for their interests anymore. They're worried about other things, like you say, mansplaining, like toxic masculinity. Mansplaining is hilarious. Explaining, if you're a man, if you correct someone and they're incorrect

and you're a man, you're mansplaining. Well, then you're still mansplaining. Well, that's not how, we can't live like that i can't i can't live like that i can't where does it go does it become a religious war are we in a holy war for wokeness i know but i don't have to i don't want to have to check the contents of someone's underwear every time i have a discussion with them you know i don't like i don't want to make those judgments on that well you need to understand and check yourself because the contents of someone's underwear

does not mean that that's the gender in which they identify with. You piece of shit. I know. You already fucked it up. That's it. I don't know. I don't know.

You're going to cancel yourself now? You should. Well, I've already been cancelled probably. I don't know. That might be a good idea. Maybe Titania gets cancelled. Maybe I should find a way to have her. Yes.

Because she probably messes up sometimes. Well, once people find out that Titania is actually a man. Yeah. Well, you know what? I'll do it. Because I just, it's funny you mentioned the transgender child. Because I've just written a book as her, aimed at children. Right?

Because of that, have you seen this? Well, you've seen the woke children's books, right? Yes, I made a joke about one. Feminist baby. She's got a bullhorn. Feminist baby. Bullhorn. Does a feminist need a bullhorn? Oh, yeah. Jesus Christ. She's screaming about issues. She's a

baby. Yeah, but she needs to be heard. Don't silence her truth. Look at that. Feminist baby. Silence her voice. Her voice is in a bullhorn? Right, there we go. Meanwhile, if she's a feminist, why is she wearing fucking makeup when she's a baby? That's just rude. Yeah.

That's rude. Because that's the goddamn patriarchy. That's socializing young babies to be sex objects. Oh, that's a boy. He's a feminist too. Christ. How does he even know what a boy or a girl is? How many of these are there?

He's a baby. These look like they're aimed very much at very young kids as well. Yeah. Well, it's aimed at the mothers and fathers of very young kids who want to let everybody know they're woke. And they probably only pull them out when people come over the house. Oh, yeah. Just put them on the coffee table. So everyone knows.

I mean, but this is, you're scraping the surface here so one of the big selling books was good night stories for rebel girls which is like each chapter is about a major feminist icon that's aimed at young kids there's one called c is for consent that's aimed at very young kids there's one called the little girl who gave zero fucks right there's this sort of you know what it's funny i look at this stuff i think this is such flagrant indoctrination you're not even hiding it anymore right there's nothing's nothing subtle about this, you know? Yeah. So I've written a book as Titania, and it's called My First Little Book of Intersectional Activism.

Right? Because she can't get it right. She talks to kids like they're just sociologists or something. She can't get it right, which is fun. And she says to them, you know, your parents hate you. You know, you should ditch them. I think that's the way to do it. Well, that's what every cult does. Yeah, yeah exactly one of the things that cults do one of

the hallmarks of cults is they try to separate you from your parents yeah or if you get the kids young then you can you can get their minds eventually so maybe that's is that the solution trying to trying to make sure it doesn't get i don't know young maybe i don't know. Getting young, maybe? I don't know if there is a solution. I think there are patterns that always exist, and religions pop up. Like, why Christianity? Why Mormonism? Why Islam? Why, you know, what causes these patterns, these ideological patterns? What causes them?

What causes them to take hold? What causes their followers to become? What causes them to, their followers to become rabid? I don't know what it is, but they exist and they exist, they have existed throughout history. There's literally hundreds of them. Is it a need for purpose? Is it a need to feel that you are the one pursuing the truth? It's certainly, there's instincts that we all have to be a part of a group and to be accepted as a part of a group. And one of the ways that you show that you're a part of that group is by rigidly adhering to the doctrine. Well, here's one way that we might legitimately tackle this.

I'm going to say something very optimistic now. If more people on the left can turn against wokeness, I think this will really help. I think once they realize that it is undermining all the things they stand for. Yeah. Right. It's getting Trump into power. It's getting it's getting the Tories into power in the UK. You know, it's it isn't it's dividing us up racially in terms of our sexual demographics.

It's pushing for further segregation. It actually does all the things that the social justice movement claims that they they don't want to do and that they want to fight and if more people on the left sort of turn and the other thing here's the other thing they all think we live in this world full of nazis and fascists and and these evil crypto fascists around every corner right and by making that claim you are really helping the genuine neo-nazis out there because you're saying look you're mainstream you're it's giving them much more power and attention than they deserve i think it's a really i think it's a really bad idea it's almost like you're acting as their pr you know yeah you're almost making it more acceptable to be a nazi because you're

calling everyone a nazi and you're also crying wolf right so because you're crying wolf when when someone sees an act like charlottesville was a big wake-up call for a lot of people because like holy fuck those are real nazis yeah like nazis are real like they're still nazi nazis like with the swastika tattoos and everything the tiki torches those fucking guys yeah that was a wake-up call for a lot of folks because they there's many people that never encounter people like that of course because there's not many of them right but they hear but they hear everybody's a Nazi. They hear this is a Nazi, that's a Nazi.

I mean, Christina Hoff Summers gives speeches places and they pull the fire alarm on her. They call her a Nazi. She's a feminist. Even remotely? It's insane, but she criticizes other feminists

for being preposterous. And when she does that, people decide that she has not towed the line. She's not rigidly adhering to the ideology. She's not woke enough. So they attack her. She's what you would think of as maybe a centrist feminist. But that's historically illiterate.

If you think that that's fascism, then you don't know what fascism is. And also that's really offensive to the people who have had to live through fascistic regimes to say that Christina Hoff Summers is a fucking fascist. It is, but I don't think they care what the previous definition of fascism is. I think we've got to stand by that definition. We've got to root it in the actual definition. If you want to say that Jordan Peterson is a fascist, as some people do, even though there isn't someone who is more on on record whose opposition to tyranny is more on record it's more studied in it 40 years of this stuff and it's all

online yes should you wish to check it out but that involves a degree of research and actual knowing what you're talking about it's pointed out as one of the more problematic guests that i have on really when people point to the fact that i'm some sort of an alt-right gateway they point to jordan peterson it's so ridiculous what is this gateway business as well like nonsense did you see the uh alternative influence network thing yes yes were you on that yeah i was on you were on that sure i said to her i tweeted to her i said hey um what did i say i said barbara walters interviewed castro does that make her a communist? Right. And she said, and she screenshot it and said, he's favorably comparing himself to Barbara Walters. Oh, Jesus.

You can't win. It doesn't make any sense. That 60 degrees of separation, that flowchart nonsense. It's all nonsense. It's conspiratorial. But that was a mainstream publication, wasn't it? That wasn't some rogue. I mean, sure.

was a mainstream publication wasn't it that wasn't some rogue i mean it's sure but look the only people that are taking it seriously are the people that are woke i mean it's regular people are not going to take that seriously it's ridiculous that six degrees of separation shit is not guilt by association is nuts it's crazy especially talking to people that like me that interview literally hundreds and hundreds of people yeah it's crazy but does it bother you when people throw those smears at you or do you just completely ignore it it bothers me less every day right it's interesting it's like i've developed this sort of anti-venom to it because i've experienced it so many times i used to get really upset but when people call me a a Nazi because I thought that's like the opposite of what I stand for. Genuinely.

Yeah. But now it's that thing of you see someone be called a Nazi or a racist even or a homophobe and you think, that probably isn't right. Yes. Right. And that means if you do actually ever have to use those words like those awful people in Charlottesville where you should reserve that word so that we can identify those people in our midst because they do exist they are dangerous but there's not many of them but if the word has become

so it doesn't mean that anymore it's this thing called concept creep the idea of the word just spreads and spreads so that anyone with the slightest point of political disagreement can suddenly be branded as neo-fascist that's what the McCarthyism era was all about. Yeah.

I mean, find all the demons in your neighborhood. Yeah. Everyone's bad. Everyone's evil. Everyone turns on each other. I mean, this is what North Korea does. What North Korea has that's so brilliant is everyone tattles on everyone else. Yeah, of course.

And they're all running around scared. Yeah. And this is what the woke people are doing every no one can be woke enough i mean martina navatorlova yeah i went after her yeah she's a lesbian no but she's not woke enough because she doesn't want trans women to compete in sports and dominate and win world records so she shouldn't be part of that community anymore you see i've got a real problem with the whole acronym thing the lgbtqia plus or whatever it is at the moment because it keeps getting going it's it's but i love it i want it to get longer what is it now it's lesbian gay bisexual transgender queer intersexual

asexual yeah and what's the plus the plus is whatever fucker we've forgotten basically aliens whatever whatever isn't there yeah um who the fuck knows i mean i i see that as for a start there's massive internal contradictions within that yeah like we're seeing this at the moment with the moment with lesbians versus trans people and gay rights versus trans rights, women's rights versus, you know, it's not a coherent, it's not like those people are all the same. It's a weird gang. It's a gang that doesn't get on with itself. Right, exactly. That's why Dave Chappelle's bit about that was really good, with the T's in the back and the L's in the front and stuff. They don't get on with each other.

And then if you're not ideologically pure they'll cast you out they'll even say you're not gay like with peter teal yeah you know when he said at the republican convention that he was supporting the trump yes and and the advocate the gay magazine the advocate was saying well he may sleep with men but he's not gay he doesn't get to be gay anymore oh god that's the gay press for you I mean there's yes the advocate the out magazine

there's a really funny article in out magazine which was criticising the new it film you know the clown the killer clown right the second chapter

starts with a gay bashing at the start and he eats a gay man's heart in the opening scene of that film oh spoiler alert sorry about that I was going to watch it

and out magazine said, oh, Pennywise the clown isn't the gay ally we thought he was. And this was an authentic I'm like, he's a psychopathic clown, isn't he? He eats kids' arms and drags them into the sewer. He was your ally? I love the gay press. The gay press made me laugh so much. There's one in the UK

called Pink News, right? And if you want to laugh at something, just look at their they did a thing recently. I'm not making this up this was like two weeks ago uh the pakistani government have announced that they're going to pay for people to transition they're going to pay for their surgery right you know why yes because they fucking hate gay people and they're right so they're going to pay for it and they only will allow men to have sex with men if the men transition right okay so this is not a pro-gay stunt the pink news did a video saying yeah pakistan said yes to trans rights this is a really empowering thing i'm like they

they hate you like this is it's it's it's genuinely nuts so i wonder whether we should just get rid of the letters just scrap it like i think they should keep adding more really and to make up a bunch of different names get it so it's so preposterous that even woke people like jesus christ 30 letters yeah we have letters that aren't even real symbols they'll have to go to different alphabets like prince's symbol oh yeah that could be they could do that couldn't they yeah i mean look it's it's in unknown territory right now yeah it really is we're we're completely the deep end. And with this incredible ability to communicate that we have today because of social media, we can spread these ideas. We can, you know, and people can hop on board and other mentally ill people can, you know, decide that you are absolutely correct. And we do need to add some Zs and Xs and other shit to that.

The thing is you say it as a joke and then one day it's not a joke it'll happen i think everything's a joke but it's not a joke i mean it's it can happen it does have i mean i've the number of times i've tweeted something to take the piss and then it's happened a few months later i'm not like it's it's pretty much all the time now oh yeah the one i often mention because i i just i i still can't get over it was when Titania tweeted about Mary Poppins. There's a scene in Mary Poppins where she has chimney soot on her face. And so Titania tweets saying this is blackface. This is so racist, blackface.

I remember that. Six months later, the New York Times published an article saying Mary Poppins is racist because of blackface. Because she had soot on her face? Really? Legitimately? You can find it. It's New York Times and it's Mary Poppins and nannies shameful flirting with blackface.

That's the headline of that article, right? I'm not making it up. And they used a screenshot of her with chimney soot on. Pretty much similar to the screenshot I'd taken six months before. It's not racist. But it's changed so much in six months like things have shifted so bizarrely look at this mary paulinson and shaneful flirting with blackface this is a major publication that is god damned hilarious but this

isn't even like some like blog full flirting with blackface that's the new york times who wrote that who's that person who's the i don't know who that person is but oh i don't even want to say his name fucking voldemort right is that the one you're not supposed to say the name or what's the other you can't say voldemort you just did right jesus christ that is so goddamn crazy this happens we had it um in the uk i don't know if this story got broke over here you know the new musical cats the film of cats the andrew lloyd weber thing right yes see that no i didn't see one of the mixed race actors plays a white cat and there were articles about how they've whitewashed this black actor but they've also turned her into a cat it's not a you know

what i mean it's not a racist i can't remember her name but it's yeah i know what you're saying yeah you know it's like stop trying to right this is it like if you're going to why not just this is why i say get the left on board why not just reserve the accusation of racism for actual racist well i think just do that thinks of the woke left the same way they think of antifa that they are on the fringe but they're doing good work like they're not me i don't think that way but at least they're attacking those right-wing pieces of shit that i hate i say even though they're crazy and ridiculous enough they're crazy and ridiculous but they're not coming after me okay they're coming after people that i disagree with so they don't find it a problem.

But it'd be one thing if, I mean, I don't support violence anyway, but it'd be one thing if Antifa were going after actual fascists. But when they're just pepper spraying someone with a MAGA hat or, you know, or going after Andy Ngo, you know, sort of gay Vietnamese person. Or Christina Hoff Sommers. Or Christina Hoff Sommers, then it's difficult to take them seriously. And they're wearing masks and

hitting people with bike locks and all the craziness and you know, it's. And they're wearing masks and hitting people with bike locks and all their craziness. You know, it's... And they're the compassionate ones, right? This is the incoherence of that. If you set yourself as this kind of moral arbiter and you're doing everything in virtue but you're hitting someone with a bike lock rather than engaging them in conversation

then how do you even talk to that? How do you even address that? Yeah, you really can't. What they're willing to do is they're willing to attack people that they disagree with they're willing to shut down discussion they're willing to like if someone wants to come and speak and that person happens to be right wing yeah they feel completely 100 justified and shutting down the speech hitting fire fire alarms, telling people they don't feel safe, attacking people that are trying to come into the venue, screaming at old people.

I mean, we've seen all this stuff that happens with Antifa. This is a serious problem that I think is going to get worse here very quickly, right? Because up until now, I've always thought you guys are in a really great position. You've got your First Amendment, you know, so people will always be able to say whatever they want in this country, you know. But you're seeing the cracks in that ideal very, very clearly. And some people are calling for hate speech laws so that the First Amendment doesn't apply to what they call hate speech. And that would be the rather than just I mean, yeah, you've got people setting off fire alarms, literally stopping people from speaking that way. But I think there are people who are moving towards legislating against certain forms of speech well it's very important that this be taught

and that people understand that the answer to bad speech is good speech yeah just more of it always been the answer to get two people that have opposing ideas and have them talk and have one person who has the better ideas who's more articulate and understands it and understands the consequences of these evil ideas and lays it out so that everybody watching can go, oh, okay, I see. Now I learned. But as soon as you stop it, you know, if they say we want Ben Shapiro to debate our person and let's all go together that's great yeah do that do that that's how to do it so why would you want if you claim to be opposed to all these horrible ideas why would you want those ideas to be left unchallenged that doesn't make sense to me right what you what you should you should be celebrating the idea that these people are going to get a

platform and be debated and be and and be repudiated they're worried that that person's going to indoctrinate someone and they think that they're absolutely right and that person's absolutely wrong and this is the the argument for deplatforming people from twitter and youtube and all these different social media platforms but people aren't as stupid as that they're not of them are but do you think like i don't believe that someone's going to hear someone making a fascist speech and they suddenly become fascist by osmosis let me pause you there okay how do how does someone join the nazi party well i mean do you mean the historical nazi no the ones that are around today i mean who the hell knows but i mean there's more okay fine who get indoctrinated and that's what we're doing we're protecting morons we're nerfing the world

but the fact is there are so few of those people there are so few people who are that stupid that's why there aren't many neo-Nazis. I don't think that's true. Really? I have more faith in humanity. I think most people are pretty keyed up. You are a smart man. Yeah.

And I understand why you would think that. But I think there are a lot of extremely gullible people. You know how many people believe the earth is flat? You aware of that? I wonder whether those people are joking when I hear that. I really do. No, I've had arguments with them. Really? Yeah, I've had those people are joking when I hear that. I really do. No, I've had arguments with them. Really?

Yeah, I've had conversations with them in real life. Okay, so let's take that point that there are an awful lot of stupid people out there. Uninformed, gullible. Let's call them uninformed, gullible, and unprepared in terms of they don't have the skills to handle any sort of weird argument. Let's say I'm wrong, and my optimism about humanity is wrong-headed, and I'm willing to accept that, right? So let's say I'm wrong about that. What is better?

What's the best way to deal with those people? Is it to say, we're going to no-platform all the people who are going to indoctrinate them, so they never get to hear that? But we live in a world with the internet, where people can go on their various chat rooms, and there, they can go into those areas,

and they can hear those ideas unchallenged. They don't hear the opposing view. So surely, if there are all these swathes of gormless people out there, that's the environment which is going to radicalize them. Not a stage at some university where something… I agree with you. But they want to deplatform people that would bring those people over to those websites where they would get indoctrinated. Right. So they want to de-platform people off of social media so that those people who have these problematic ideas can't drag someone over to Stormfront or whatever radical website or message board.

But we know from the history of censorship that it never works. Right. It never works. It always drives people towards something. But that doesn't matter. People are stupid. Just because you say you know it and we do know it, it doesn't mean people are going to think that way and operate that way.

That requires restraint. It requires foresight. It requires some sort of an objective understanding of history. Well, I'll give you give an example so in the uk there was a far-right party called the british national party which does technically still exist but no you know there's like 10 people in it and um the leader of that party there was a moment where they were winning millions of votes right because there were a lot of people who were disenfranchised particularly in working class areas and they were desperate for some kind of

and the head of that party nick griff, went on to our main political discussion programme, it's called Question Time, BBC One, Prime Time, and he was humiliated. And as soon as that happened, the BNP were over, within a matter of months. It exposed to those normal people the ludicrous and absurd nature of his viewpoint. And that, I think, is a really heartening idea,

that actually if you hear more from these people, they are self-discrediting, right? But if you ban them, you're almost giving them a kind of glamour, a kind of martyrdom status that they don't deserve. And that, I think, attracts a lot of people to their worldview. There's definitely something to be said for that. Yeah, there's definitely something to be said. that yeah there's definitely something to be said

I mean like I'm not in favor of banning these people but I'm also not in favor of these people being able to espouse hate speech everywhere they go and to be able to indoctrinate people as well it's like I don't know what the actual well do you trust well I'll put it as my view

I do not trust the state to decide what constitutes hate speech. I don't either. I don't believe that. I mean, in the UK, they've proven that they're not capable of doing that. Same as Canada. Right. Exactly.

Absolutely. Clearly. So in that case, I'm for abolishing the idea of hate speech as a practice. We have, I don't know how much you know about the UK with this, right? We have a thing where the police will investigate you for non-crime if it's offensive right non-crime so there's a website the government's website and hate crime has a paragraph on non-crime hate incidents okay and what they specifically say is if you've heard some if someone said something and it's offensive to you and you believe that

that person said something because of you you were one of the protected characteristics because of race gender sexuality disability whatever then you report that to the police and it gets logged in the hate crime statistics as a hate crime even though there's no crime okay i'll give you a very specific example this is a famous case in the uk at the moment a man called harry miller he was a docker from humberside and uh the police he retweeted a poem that was perceived to be transphobic and people were upset about it. He didn't even write the poem. He just retweeted the poem. The police investigated his retweet and he said to them, have I broken the law? They said, this isn't a crime. This is

a non-crime hate incident. And the actual phrase the police officer used, I'm not joking, was, we have to check your thinking, right? Whoa! Now that's sinister. And then when the police, the Humberside police were challenged on this in the media, it turns out this is standard practice in the police. It isn't just one rogue police officer going a bit mad. This is standard practice.

The commissioning guidelines from the College of Policing actually stipulate that this is what you're meant to do. This is now finally being challenged in the courts, but no one stood up to this stuff, you know? Just a phrase, check your thinking. Check your thinking. By a police officer, no less. Yeah, well, the police... Who's qualified to check your thinking?

I mean, you should be... It's crazy. It should be difficult. Well, yeah, quite. I mean, the College of Policing who teach the police what... What the police officer actually said is he said, well, we've had a workshop. And what you don't understand is that babies are sometimes born with a with a male brain when they've got a female.

But I mean, literally, he was trying to lecture him on this stuff. And well, that might be true. But that doesn't mean that the police should be able to tell you that you can't retweet something that you agree with. Right. And we have you know, we have people in our country who have been. Do you know how many people are arrested in the UK? I'll just ask, how many people do you think are arrested every year in the UK for offensive comments they've posted online? What would you guess?

It's not a trick. I'm just interested to know what you would assume. Arrested for offensive comments online? Yeah. Let me say 300 3 000 every year right now wow and that's not including all the many thousands of non-crime non-crime hate incidents that are logged wow right so 3 000 people arrested and what is it some of them will be horrible by the way i'm i've been clear about some of those comments will be horrible nasty racist awful right uh a lot of them are between like rival by the way. I've been clear about it. Some of those comments will be horrible, nasty, racist, awful.

Right. A lot of them are between like rival football gangs and stuff like that. But some of them are jokes. One guy served three months in prison for a joke about Madeleine McCann. And it was a joke that he cut and paste from some website and put it on his own Facebook page. Three months in prison for that. Jesus Christ. What was the joke?

I don't know. I hope it was good. I hope he was laughing for three months while he was eating terrible food. Better be worth it, right? Now he's a felon, right? Yeah. He's a record. The famous one in the UK at the moment is the Count Dankula case.

Yes. The Nazi pug case. I do know that one, yeah. And because I stood up for it. Explain it to people that don't know that story. So there's a guy called Count Dankula. His real name is Marcus Meakin, and he's a YouTuber. And he created his dog.

Sorry, his girlfriend's dog is this cute little pug dog, right? And his girlfriend was always going on about how adorable the dog was. So he trained the dog to jump about enthusiastically whenever it heard the phrase, gas the Jews. And he trained it to do a little Nazi salute whenever it heard Sieg Heil, right? Now, those phrases out of that context are unpleasant. You can see why someone would be offended by that, right? But the joke was that this cute little dog

is behaving this vicious... In fact, the joke is predicated on the idea that there's nothing worse than a Nazi. Well, also, the joke is predicated on the fact that we all know the dog has no idea what it's doing. Quite, exactly, yeah. So that's him doing the Sieg Heil there. So that's him doing the Z car there. So that's Buddha the dog.

Now, look, I accept that people can be offended. I might be offended by it. I'm offended by all sorts of things, and that's fine. But no, 3 million people saw that video before YouTube took it down. And 3 million people, not one complained. No one complained. The police actually went to the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities

and said, do you find this offensive? And understandably, they said yes. And the police are great. Now we can prosecute this guy. Two-year investigation. Found guilty in a court of law. Ultimately fined £800. That was what happened.

But he's got a criminal record now for whatever you think about the joke, right? It is clearly meant to be funny but i mean not only that cyber crime intelligence unit investigated all of his tweets emails his entire background to find any remote connection to a fascist group or a far-right group nothing they found nothing so there's no evidence so basically they prosecute in the uk we now have someone who has been prosecuted because the judge believes that he knows what's secretly going on, what his secret intention is. And the actual phrasing of the law under which he was prosecuted is that it is deemed grossly offensive, which is a very subjective idea, something that is grossly offensive. Well, particularly when the fact that you have 3,000 different views or 3 million different views right and no complaints no complaints right

this is that's that's crazy and i know the guy because i i i i i defended him at the time and then of course people saying that i'm a nazi apologist because you know that's which is utterly utterly ludicrous but i know the guy now he's not he's a nice guy he's not at all i've seen him interviewed yeah what's up jam Jamie? While you guys are talking about this, I found a story that happened last week. This is a tweet that I've kind of gone through it to verify it a little bit. I don't want to say it's 100% accurate, but this guy got a job interview, and I guess he signed up, and they found this on their own. He said he did not give them his information.

They sent him 351 pages of every tweet he ever liked that had the word fuck in it. Wow. He said, I had to get a background check for my job, and it turns out the report is a 300-plus page PDF of every single tweet I've ever liked with the word fuck in it. Enjoy your dystopian BS. It's like there's a bunch of tweets showing it, but I looked up the company that does this. Hold on. Go back.

Sorry. What does it say? Update. I came home to a package containing a printout of all 351 pages of it. Obviously, the dystopia cares about wasting paper. Here's like a for instance

of what it looks like. And have they used this to justify not giving him the job? Is that the answer? I don't know. I don't know what happened after that. He liked this tweet.

Merry Christmas to the toddler. I saw running across Trader Joe's with a giant bottle of peppermint vodka and mom running after him like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Only. So flag type bad, flag reason alcohol.

Yeah. Post type liked. Yeah. So they changed what he was saying. Right. changed what he was saying right he's he's making a joke about a toddler that he saw running across trader joe's with a giant bottle of peppermint vodka that it had taken from its mom and the mom was like no no give me that give me that give me that so they flagged it because the there was alcohol in it the baby had a bottle of alcohol there's nothing offensive about that whatsoever

i actually don't understand why that would be an issue. Because they want you to be scared as fuck. They want to be able to control your thinking and they don't want you to ever do anything that could come back to hurt the company in any way and mess with their bottom line. I mean, that is crazy. But even liking a tweet, not just

writing the tweet, but liking it. I like things by mistake sometimes. I just say the wrong thing. Here's another one. To this day, this is still the most, in all caps, big dick energy I've ever seen in a video. I don't know what that is. Here's the guy that called his dad when he was about to win,

who wants to be a millionaire, to celebrate that. I know the answer. I'm going to win. Right. Okay. So he called his dad, told his dad that he's going to win because he knew he was going to win. Now look at this. Flag reason, language, bigotry, sexism. What's the bigotry and the sexism there?

I don't understand it. I don't see any bigotry. Bigotry in particular, sexism, that he's a man and he's showing big dick energy because he's... Big dick energy is an expression and it's an expression for someone who is super confident and the idea that you you say well we must have a big dick that's the joke but that's not sexist no it's a joke it's an internet meme big dick energy is an internet meme and that this is flag type bad language bigotry sexism and here's the best part post type liked he just liked it like you saw I was like ah

because it is a big dick energy move call your dad and say I'm about to win a million dad does that classify as big dick energy it's not a phrase that we commonly use in the UK we're too refined for that that's vulgar it's a new American thing over the last, wait,

four years or so? Two years. It's having a big dick sexist then. I guess that's what they're saying. And bigotry is the hilarious part. You can scour that motherfucker forever and try to find some bigotry there. The gentleman's name, if you want to read this, folks, you want to read along

with his internet name is K-M- F R A N C K M L E Frank F R A N C K M L E F R A N C on Twitter Bruce bruise Almighty hilarious so he's a funny guy by the way they don't know what bigotry means I'm really sick of this word being thrown around right that's a real problem right there I mean he should be able to sue for that one there's what bigotry means. I'm really sick of this word being thrown around, right? That's a real problem right there. I mean, he should be able to sue for that one. There's nothing bigotry about that. Bigotry is, the dictionary definition of bigotry is an intolerance to those with different opinions.

Yes. And more often than not, sorry, I didn't mean to be patronizing, but it's just that whenever I hear the word being used, it's always by bigots who can't tolerate your opinion. It's like, you're a bigot. You don't agree with everything I say and therefore you're a bigot. You just undermine your whole fucking point it's gross but liking tweets i mean it's bad enough that people sort of trawl through everything you ever wrote but liking but liking them and what's crazy about that is this is a company that's doing this so there's a company that they hired that's willing to do this and the company labeled it bigotry. So is the company woke? Is this the company?

Fama, the smartest way to screen toxic workplace behavior. No, they'll be. Fama is a talent screening software. Okay, so it's software. That's part of the problem. To help identify problematic behavior among potential hires and current employees by analyzing publicly available online information wow boy would i have a hard time getting a job i just looked up said that another company used this

company to get that information so it's like a background check yeah a company that was creepy company insane like that's really sinister well it seems like it's just software it's just like yeah it says a talent screening software. So it's basically, they just scan you to make sure that you pass their purity test, which no one will. No one with any sense of humor. I mean, if that guy,

the big dick energy guy that gets you flagged, you're a bad person because you thought that that guy who knew he was going to win a million dollars. So he called his dad. I mean, that's, that's funny. Is there anyone like, I, there is no way

that there's anyone on the planet who couldn't be cancelled if you had unlimited access to their private texts and tweets. No way. But that's part of why

people want to cancel people because they know it could come back at them and there's a certain thrill. Like, one of the things you find about people, like,

here's one, right? Whenever you see a homophobic preacher, almost guarantee that guy's gay. Oh, yeah, always. Almost guarantee. You know, these sinners and their homosexuality

getting together and laying with men, and you could see the boner just developing in their pants. That's what these people are. I love that. And then they always get caught with a rent boy doing crystal meth or something like that. Yeah, and people who just have just a... Even if you're adhering to this woke ideology and you're part of the cult

if you just have a few fucked up sketchy things in your past you know that they could get you and so you just stay on the offensive stay on the offensive but then that's the same with male anyone who identifies as male feminist 100 and the number of times they you know they're a wandering hand predator it sort of comes like Anybody who identifies as a male feminist should be flagged. They should flag them and then just go through their stuff. So you see it as strategic. You see it as like, I've got cover. 100%.

I know guys who are creepers who identify as male feminists so that they could get women to think that they're woke and they're a part of the good squad and good guys. get women to think that they're woke and they're a part of the good squad, good guys. It's just, it's a transparent ploy by sneaky men to try to fuck. That's all it is. It's the most obvious, it's like the dumbest magic trick ever. Like you could see them stuff the handkerchief into their sleeve.

It's so stupid. But you know, feminists used to just mean someone who believes in equality of the sexes, which is pretty much everyone, right? So it's... Yeah, but that's a problem in the word, right? The word has feminine in it. You should be an egalitarian. You should be an overall open-minded person who believes in the individual and you don't want to separate anyone, whether it's by race or gender or sexual orientation or anything, into any groups.

You love people and you want everyone to have equal opportunity. You everybody to have equal treatment so you would get rid of the word feminist do you think no i don't i would never get rid of it because i think it's empowering for some people that have grown up in suppressive environments and to be able to establish yourself as someone who's resisting something that you fought against like if you if you grew up in a horrible environment like maybe your dad beat your mom and you were told you're a piece of shit because you're a woman

and then you finally get in with this group that tells you, no, as a feminist, you're empowered. You're a powerful woman. And I don't want to get rid of any labels.

But I would be on board with that totally if I thought that modern day feminism was anything to do with empowerment. But I don't think it is. Well, I think it's true with women are weak. Women are victims. Women need special protection. I think it's to do with women are weak, women are victims,

women need special protection. I think it's the opposite of empowerment in a lot of feminist views. In a lot of feminist views. I try not to generalize. No, sure. But my issue is with men that call themselves feminists.

Okay, okay. You know, I just don't buy it. I've never met one. Every one I've met is a creeper. Either a creeper or the most ultimate beta male. Well, most women don't even identify as feminists. Most women don't. identify as feminists they most

women don't you know but the men that i have met they're so they're so obviously compromised right okay and you know or it's men that have these really powerful women like it's there's that's a lot of it it's like men who have this like really powerful girlfriend yeah and you know they're kind of weak yeah there's a lot of that you know i always i have a joke show me a man who claims to be a feminist who can pick up heavy shit and run fast like they don't exist right okay i'll try and prove you wrong on that i'll try and try well it's probably a guy who really likes to fuck yeah and so he's he's like he can fuck in a regular way but he's just like he's trying to like cover all the bases says you know what i'm gonna be a fucking feminist too bro get them all this all does make sense to me but again like i try not to imagine what's going on in people's

heads and but you're right so many of them it just happens all the time so many of them like you say with the gay preachers it's just gay preachers why would you care why would you care why would you care why are you so angry about gay people why do you care also some of them are really camp and effeminate yeah and you just think okay i know what's going on clearly i had a bit about it that there's only two types of people that hate gay marriage either you're dumb or you're secretly worried that dicks are delicious right exactly and that's what you get from those people you get this weird thing where you're you're trying to throw people off the trail yeah but the people like huh it's like if you show up at a uh you run car accident And you're like wow who did this

This is crazy I would never do this I can't even believe someone would do this I mean I'll tell you what I would never do it If you're looking for people It wouldn't be me It's like the criminal joining the vigilante gang

It's an old trick Absolutely Well cops always say that when someone's an arsonist They're almost always at the scene of the crime They always show up to watch their handiwork Well I'm going to think about this more then because, I mean, you're sort of putting into my mind now this idea that there's a lot of the woke people

are doing it in order to cover their own tracks and in order to, like, a self-preservation kind of thing. There's definitely that. But I think it's also they don't want any of that smoke. They don't want any of it coming their way. Because they see how vicious it is, right? They see how horrible it is. Yes.

I'm friends with a guy who used to be woke, and now he's not. His name is Jamie Kilstein. So how did he get deprogrammed? He got fucking called out, man. They went after him. That'll do it. Oh, my God. And in a small way, you know, in comparison to the way some people have gotten it.

But he recognized, like, how crazy it is. And he also recognized that his own patterns were so problematic. Like, he was tweeting mean things to people and calling him a sexist pig and a piece of shit and homophobic and he was doing it to get that love and then he would check his twitter like obsessively couldn't even he was walking down the street he kept pulling his phone out of his pocket see how people are responding to his tweet yeah and it becomes an addiction and this crazy oh it does people have that thing where they feel the vibration in their pocket and there is no vibration it's like it's like it's not even vibrating it's like there's a term for this and this crazy... Oh, it does. People have that thing where they feel the vibration in their pocket and there is no vibration.

It's like... It's not even vibrating. I know. There's a term for this. Yeah. I took all of my social media apps and this was hugely beneficial and I put them all on the back page of my phone

and I put them in a folder that says addict. Right. To remind yourself of your sin. So if I want to fuck around i want to go on twitter or facebook or instagram i don't really go on facebook but if i want to go on one of those i have to go into the addict folder yeah and remind yourself yeah so i don't go in there i mean i'm getting better at it but it's great it does bring out the worst in people and it brings out the worst

in me like i find the same thing as well everyone we're human beings you know and you can't i i wonder the extent to which social media has sort of escalated everything in the real world as well you know because because people we haven't got adults discussing stuff anymore we've got children throwing mud you know that's what's basically happening well you and i are discussing things it's just it's harder to find someone who could just sit down and talk to you but there's a bunch of people that are waking up to it yeah there's a lot of people that are getting flip phones too yeah there's a lot of people that are waking up to it yeah there's a lot of people that are getting flip phones too yeah there's a lot of people that are realizing like this is a this is a bad addiction yeah you know no i i can see that i could see that i've considered getting a flip phone or maybe a phone with no apps on it at all you know that's not a bad idea too well i

deleted twitter for a week and then i got so much work done i was so productive it was really great you know but it's just i get trapped in those cycles of stupid conversations where someone's arguing with a figment of their imagination. They've sort of decided that you believe something that you just don't believe. And they're telling you what you believe. Well, you have the luxury of a character as well. Yeah, but I used to before I was outed. When did you get outed? That was when the book came.

That was March last year. And I was gutted. I didn't do it, right? Who outed you? It was the Sunday that was march last year and i was gutted i didn't do it right how did you it was the sunday times in london oh you know what so um the journalist had done this really interesting investigative journalism stuff like rosamund irwin her name was and she'd um she'd read loads of my political articles because i write these articles for spike magazine and she'd read the an advanced copy of the book and she'd seen that some of the quotations match up. And then she emailed me saying, I think you're Titania McGrath.

Can you confirm or deny this? And I fudged it. You know, I emailed back. I didn't lie, but I sort of fudged it. She phoned friends of mine to ask whether it was me. And I hadn't told anyone. Did they rat you out? I hadn't told them.

In fact, what was great is some of my friends were following Titania and they didn't know it was me. What was a bit bad was there were a couple of times when I slagged them off as a joke and they didn't know it was me what was a bit bad was there were a couple of times when i slagged them off as a joke and they didn't know it was me anyway that's hilarious but i preferred that i loved being in the closet you know and well have you thought about creating a new character i've got a couple but i'm not saying who they are they're already looking now i'm not saying who they are and they haven't got many followers but hopefully i can build them up but like uh there was a real it was like i loved like just being a character and then the thing is

because the outing happened the week of the book it looked deliberate it looked like i'd sort of cynically kind of cool done it well it was a big publicity thing right um but it helped book sales yeah i know but i didn't i still didn't want it because now you know what the big difference is now is that everyone who hates it and by the way like the social justice activists their venom for this character is off the fucking scale they they know i don't expect them to find it funny i get that they're not going to find it funny right but the anger is is just unbelievable so now it goes to me right so now whenever she tweets something that they find offensive they they go for me do they call you by name yeah or they reply with my name

you know and i get screenshots sent back at me saying this is homophobic or whatever and i'm like none of it is none of it is i the target is never minorities with her the target is her there's no the the the goal posts have been moved so far away from reality that there's no logic to any of it no you know someone called me homophobic because i said i had an old tweet this from 2012 right yeah they dug up a bunch of tweets about me this week okay okay one of them from 2012 said call me romantic but i love it when i see gay couples that are so comfortable that they can kiss in public i saw this yes because didn't someone said that you were fetishizing gay people by...

Come on. That's hilarious. That was a legitimate tweet. I was probably high. I saw it because that's when I feel like warm and fuzzy. And I saw a gay couple make out. I think that was what it was. I mean, it was eight fucking years ago.

It's hard to remember. That's quite sweet. So you may as well have written fucking fags. You may as well. written fucking fags like you may as well might as well like but i i was legitimately you know you know it's it's weird man it's weird the whole thing is very weird so they could just call you homophobic for that it's just so well that's the other thing we could do is like is well i hate using the phrase call out but how about we start calling out people who misuse those words right Well, I hate using the phrase call out, but how about we start calling out people who misuse those words, right? If you're homophobic, you hate gay people.

Yeah. You think it's nice that they can kiss openly in public. There's no logic to it, but that's the thing. It's like you're arguing with someone who's – it's like the idea that if you leave Islam, you could be killed, right? Right. This is what happens to apostates. An apostate, yeah. Right. Yeah.

That is crazy, right? Terrifying. That if you leave, it's so terrifying that someone could kill you. But that is the same kind of religious thinking, religious crazed ideology, adherence to the dogma no matter what that would allow someone to think that i could be homophobic by saying that i think it's great when gay guys are so comfortable they kiss in public well it's because they know you are in your mind they they do this incredible mind reading thing that's what it's all about they're all psychics did you know that they're all psychics

they don't care about reality they don't care about what's true yeah exactly there's no need for reality in their world if they've decided that you're a bigot then they can use anything and everything against you including pro-gay tweets yeah they can use exactly let's think about they can use a pro-gay tweet to prove that you're homophobic it's amazing but it's kind of good because it's so crazy that logical left-leaning people read that and they go what the fuck they do and they go come on man and you know it's been positive for me yeah in a lot of ways that they're so over the top that you know like i've had gay friends go did i know you're homophobic i'm like i didn't know either amazing now i know but they know yeah maybe this is why

they always turn most severely on people from the left who question this stuff. They really do because they expect it from the right. I think too, yeah, especially if you look like you should be on the right and you're on the left, which I definitely do. Right. You know, it's like there's, I mean, you could try to figure it out, but I think it all boils down to adherence. Adherence, strict adherence and compliance to the dogma. And if you don't if you're not willing to comply 100 with the ideology they'll attack you so just like martina navratilova

but that's why i think left and right is no longer helpful i think i i think it's about that's why there are all these weird alliances going on now i mean i did this event recently with peter bogosian who i know you've spoken to and james lindsey and we were giving these talks at this event in london and we were sitting there at lunch, and there was the head of the Atheist Society sitting next to this evangelical Christian pastor from America, and there were people of no faith and all faith and left and right. And it's like, but we all believe in liberty. Ultimately, we all care about freedom and individual freedom,

and that's the new fault line. It's not left against right. It's people who believe in liberty for the individual or people who want more authority to control you. And that's the real conflict. Well, if the right really wanted to bring more people over, what they would do is establish, like, universally across the board, an appreciation for gay people, appreciation for gay marriage, an appreciation for the need to take impoverished communities and bring them up, an appreciation for welfare, an appreciation for raising the minimum wage.

If they just started a few things like that, good Lord, the amount of people that would jump off that fucking ship, that sinking ship of liberal ideas yeah because it's just it's infested with rats it's infested with rats that are chewing a hole in the very hull of the ship that happened in the uk it was the conservative government that pushed through gay marriage because actually because actually it's quite conservative ideas you know get government out of your life yeah yes it should be well maybe that's what they maybe that's what they need to do but i think what definitely if you if you support the left, you need to try and dissuade the Democrats and the Labour Party from going woke

because they alienate all of their major... They do, and they don't even realize they're doing it. But the problem is in this country, there's no room for a third party. People don't appreciate it or believe in it. No, you don't have that option, do you? Maybe they kind of do, like Gary Johnson ran last year, and some people voted for him. But what's really happened in this country previously, historically, is that when someone charismatic came along that's an independent, they really just take votes away from the Democrats.

Yeah, so you split the vote, right? Yeah, so the Republicans are pretty rigid. Well, actually, here's an example against that, though, is Ross Perot. He actually took votes away from the Republican, that's why bill clinton got in office right bill clinton actually won when herbert walker bush was in his first term so he only did one term and then bill clinton won and when herbert walker bush was going for re-election and the reason why he run but he won rather is because ross perot who is this eccentric billionaire do you remember him no i know sorry i remember ross perot yeah yeah he was this eccentric billionaire. Do you remember him? No, sorry, I remember Ross Perot. Yeah, yeah. He was an eccentric billionaire. Independently, did he?

Yes, independent. And he got on TV and bought an entire half hour of primetime television to show people how they're getting fucked by the Federal Reserve and taxes. And he was explaining, I got a patent here, take a look over there, see this is what you're going to do. They take it here and they get it there. And he was doing all this shit and everybody's like, what the fuck? And I remember everybody was all in a war. I voted for him, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. It're going to do. They take it here and they get it there. And he was doing all this shit and everybody's like, what the fuck? And I remember everybody was all in a war.

I voted for him. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. It's hard to remember. Were you worried about splitting the vote though? Nah, I was fucking 18. I don't know what the fuck was going on. I don't know how old I was.

I was older than that. I must have been 21. But am I right in thinking, I mean, there isn't that much between the Democrats and the Republicans, is it?

I mean, you don't have a real sort of left wing, right wing option. They're pretty similar on a lot of things depends on who you're talking to you know if you if there's there's a giant difference between ted cruz and bernie sanders right there's a giant difference there's some a lot of it is people are concerned with uh abortion rights that's a giant one And people are concerned with a Republican putting someone in the Supreme Court

that is going to limit a woman's right to choose. So social issues, that's the way the difference really lies. Those are big ones and those are also big ones. Those pro-life people,

they, you know, they will not vote for someone who's not pro-life. And so if you get to a position where you are a are Republican you pretty much have to be pro-life right if you want want the group so those are the sticking

point yeah because they you know and this is there's no judgment here but this is their their position is that you're killing a baby yeah right and they're like I don't give a fuck about anything else you can't kill a goddamn baby right and so they're like okay okay okay and so many Republicans that maybe even have had abortions themselves. They can't be open about that particular issue. They can't be open about that. Okay, I get it.

They have to hide it. But this is why I think someone like Sanders is a genuine left-wing option and why someone like Elizabeth Warren or someone who's pushing the woke thing will never be, that will be like electoral hemlock. I think it will just absolutely not work. But see, they don't see that. How do they not see it? Because they're full of shit.

But how do they not see it? It happened last, like Hillary Clinton was targeting all the various demographics and she's saying she was splitting the electorate up and so i'll say and it didn't work well how can they not see that this never works have you ever known someone who's just a real liar like a pathological liar they make up a past they make up things they don't know that other people can't tell or that other people can tell rather that they're not normal they normal. They're not acting normal. They don't seem genuine. Okay.

There's certain aspects of people that it's hard to tell. But some people just don't seem genuine. And political people in particular. Like when people are running for political office, that's when that shit really stands out. Yeah. Because over and over and over again, you see them doing these these speeches and over and over and over again you see them talking about things and some people can sense it and some people can't but they can't tell when you're a liar you can't tell other people see you right because you're lying like i know a guy i'm gonna

be nice here not name names names. No, never. He's gay as fuck, but he doesn't think everybody knows it. Flamboyant, right? He's gay. Everyone that I know knows he's gay. And we all wish. But he's got a family.

He's got a wife and kids, and we're all speculating, like, how does this guy get his rocks off? It's kind of crazy. But it's just one of those things. The man is a homosexual, I'm pretty sure pretty sure i mean if i had a bet i'm fucking pushing all my chips right okay yeah right and because of that he acts in this really strange because he's living this kind of lie of a life he acts in this strange way and i don't think he realizes that people know and you think a lot

of these people go into politics a lot of these sorts they're kind of sociopathic a lot yeah there's there's something about them and so they have this fake earnestness to them right and that fake earnestness will work it will work if you're talking to 10 000 people if you're talking to 10 000 people about the way we can come together as a country and we can take America back. Yeah. There's no connection. But I always put that down to them having to follow a party line or they're sloganizing, you know,

they're throwing slogans out there. There's a little of that. There's a little of that. I expect to kind of, this is why I'd never be a politician. I couldn't bear not to just say what I think. You can't be a politician. No, for sure.

The thing is, when someone's trying to be woke, what they're doing is they're just, it has nothing to do with being genuine. If someone's a woke politician, unless that's who they really are. I think a lot of them are, though. Well, AOC, I think she really is. Yeah, AOC, Ilhan Omar, and Rashida Tlaib.

I think they mean what they say. Well, AOC is also, you know, she's not even 30. She's a 29-year-old woman. Right, right. She's idealistic, and she's got these thoughts of the future, and she's, you know, democratic socialist. There was an article in the Spectator this week about this. They're like, there aren't really woke people. They're just sort of acting this out.

I wish that were true, but I don't think it is. I don't think it is. And I think Trump's being very smart whenever he sort of brings people like Ilhan Omar into the limelight and focuses on AOC and focus on that. Because it means that you start thinking Democrat is woke.

It sends that sort of message. And we know it just never... on AOC and focus on that because it means that you start thinking Democrat is woke. Yes. You know, it sends that sort of message. Yes. And we know it just never, it never works. That's why I despair with the Labour Party and the way the Labour Party went. I just, you know, I want to see a proper opposition. I want to see a proper left-wing party that cares about class issues, that cares about money, that cares about the poverty line, social mobility, you know, not, you know,

whether you're fucking whatever yeah microaggressions or whatever you know compassion for people that are trying to get by in this life not social justice issues yeah not nonsense yeah exactly and that's the way most people feel that yeah that really is but i think it's also we this is a symptom of a very simple not not simple, excuse me, a society where it's pretty easy to get by. Yeah. We're not dealing with World War II. Right. Okay?

It would be impossible to be woke if we were being invaded by the Nazis. Of course. These would not be priorities whatsoever. No, exactly. But it would never take hold. It takes hold in this incredibly safe environment. If you know Pinker's work,

which shows the progression of society becoming safer and safer. Do you know the resistance that he gets to these ideas? Yeah, yeah. Where people call him some sort of a piece of shit and an enabler and horrible things they say to him for just talking about science and statistics and showing the trends that we live in probably one of the greatest times to be alive ever. Yeah.

But that's also why people are finding things to complain about, finding things that are issues, finding things to rally for, finding things, these causes. I think the way that people speak at the moment is that the UK and the US at the moment are the most bigoted, racist, homophobic societies they've ever been. And they're the opposite of that.

They're the most tolerant they've ever been. And what's weird about that is the statistics bear it out. So all of the studies show that the UK, Great Britain, The most tolerant they've ever been. And what's weird about that is the statistics bear it out. Yes. So all of the studies show that the UK, Great Britain, is the most tolerant major European country. Even the EU's own research into this shows that tolerance towards immigration, for instance, in the UK, has become so much more improved since the Brexit vote. So we are up there you know and yet and for some reason as things get better and better and better and society gets more progressive and more tolerant um claims of bigotry and racism get more and more escalated and they and that's oh that's that is i think something we could challenge like firstly let's get the left to be left again and and fuck all the woke nonsense but also remind people that

they're not oppressed when they say they are like if someone claims to be oppressed that's a very specific extreme thing yeah right it's not just um well i sense there's some unconscious bias in the world or or maybe that actor should have been a different color or something like oppression is something very different someone's someone's asking you for your papers when you're turning every corner someone's not letting you right not you know a proper oppression oppression is what dictators do is what tyrants do it's what they do in north korea where you fuck up they'll they'll arrest your whole family and put your whole family in prison. And ironically, leaning towards wokeness actually starts to create oppression, like you see that guy who got his fucking Twitter checked for liking funny memes.

So how is it the case that those sort of tactics, I'm not saying that that's an authoritarian company, but those tactics are straight from the authoritarian paper. A hundred percent, A hundred percent. So how is it that they can't see the hypocrisy of that? That they can't see that this is where this is leading? I think they probably had no idea it was going to be that extreme when they first implemented it, and they just wanted to keep problematic people out of their office. If you're a person who is, like, say if you're hiring someone and you find out a few weeks after they're on the job that they have, you know, some really horrific posts on Twitter.

Yeah. And people have found that before. I remember there was a story, there was a man who got outed and he had a Reddit account. Yeah. And his Reddit account was horrific. Okay. But this is, you're talking about genuine sort of nasty kind of neo-Nazi horrible. I don't know if it was neo-Nazi.

I think it was like pedophilia. Okay. Talking about pedophilia. It was a lot of, it was joking around and stuff. But he was just responsible for awful shit. And so the internet people were like, fuck this guy. Let's find out who the fuck he is. So they found out who he is.

And then they let his boss know. And they sent copies of all the shit that he had written on Reddit. And he got fired for it. But that's different. But these sorts of initiatives that are set up, you can't trust them to make those important distinctions between something that is very serious and something that could obviously end up with all sorts of issues. Yeah, but if you're an employer, the last thing you want is one of those guys slipping through your radar where you don't know that this guy's working for you. That's true. Okay, but I still get really uncomfortable with the idea of trolling through everyone's history.

I do as well. Because also, a lot of these people that are saying these things, they do it for sport. Yeah. They don't really mean that. They're not really Nazis. Like there's a lot of people that do that Pepe the Frog meme. Yeah, same thing. They do it because it makes other people feel uncomfortable so they think it's funny so it feels bad man he's a nazi i only realized this properly when i did meet that count dankler

guy because he showed me the discord serve you know the chat room they all go into and it was i was like oh i can't deal with this stuff like some of the stuff that was in there i was like i can't but but what i what i could clearly see is it's like big kids. It's like big teenagers. They're just one-upmanship. They're just trying to outgross each other, right? Exactly. And so it's like, do you know the Kekistan flag?

Yes. So the Kekistan flag, which is a satire of identity policy, a nation of identitarians, you know, and then they modeled it on the Nazi flag to take the piss, right? But of course, if you don't know that world and you're not from that world and you see that you think oh my god that's a nazi flag yes

they're just copying it yes and so if you don't know if you don't immerse yourself in that world like i'm from an i'm an outsider's perspective it took someone to show me for me to sort of get it jordan had to show it to me oh did he jordan had to explain the whole thing to me and you know and jordan has taken so much heat because he posed for a photograph with these guys that had him hold up the flag of kakistan and he thought it was funny because he thinks that these sort of these memes yeah that it's it's he's he's interested in the fact that people interpret them so severely yes and so extremely well they jump to the worst possible interpretation they assume the worst of everyone well it's because of the small percentage are actually nazi frogs

that's what i was going to say is that the counter argument to that is well couldn't genuine fascists use this as cover that's the that's the counter argument that people use so so um one thing that dankler told me is that what happens is they'll spot these new actual neo-nazis coming into the server and they'll they'll get you know they'll deal with them you know they sort them out themselves they've got a way of sort of discerning it but that that's the typical argument yeah that that humor and well that's a great way also if you wanted to break up a group you infiltrate and act like a nazi right with that kekistan flag and then all of a sudden everyone's a Nazi who's associated with that frog. Yeah. I mean, that is a classic government move.

I think it's incumbent on people to try and understand the culture that they're criticizing, you know? Yes. Like my friend Stephen Knight, who does he's an interviewer and he went and interviewed a bunch of people on a march with the Kekistan flag and was asking them about their views and whether they're racist.

And when he spoke to them, it was quite clear that they just don't. They're part of this Internet culture and they think it's funny and they think it's trolling and all of that sort of stuff. And yes. And once you realize that, if you have a generous interpretation of that, then then you understand that this isn't this isn't this horrible. Right. But but but people use this as evidence of this rising fascism. They use they use people joking about fascism as evidence of the rising fascism those two things just don't and why would you why would you want to live in a world where there are fascists why would you want to believe that i don't understand that like the people who proclaim to be anti-racist i've never seen anyone more excited to find racism they're the they love racism they can't wait to find it under every stone in every corner well

that's how they justify their actions right so it So it just goes back to that thing, gives them purpose, gives them something to do. Well, it's also like we were talking about with woke people, that you can't be woke enough, because once they've found all the other people that aren't following the doctrine, then they turn on each other. They will, absolutely. God, no one's gone through my tweets yet, as far as I'm aware. Fuck, I'm putting this out there now.

But no one's done that to me yet. And I i'm like what did i say now i'm doubting myself is there jokes there must be of course i mean i've been on twitter since 2007 i've said so much stupid shit and i used to use it differently too i used to use twitter like i would post things that i thought people would react to in a silly way and I would just retweet things and not even say anything like let's let's see how these people freak out about you get someone to go back over your they can have it really that yeah that's the best attitude yeah good luck good luck exactly go go waste your life going through my tweets some people I know they do this thing where they they self-destruct the tweets after seven days you know so that oh really yeah they do that i did that with titania for a bit when

in the early days she was getting mass reported and i thought like she kept getting banned like she'd had i like how you talk about her like she's a real person i do that's how that's how i inhabit the role because i have to think of her as something other do you think that when you do that when you inhabit her do you think that you understand and appreciate the way these people think and do you think that it's attractive and in some way yeah i i i know about it because i used to study this stuff so i used to i used to teach um and i used to um uh i did a thesis which was about post-structuralism and past about post-modernism a lot about foucault and all the origins of this stuff.

So I'm familiar with it and I'm familiar with the language and I'm familiar with the ideas. And, of course, all of my friends have always been on the left. So I know what this is all about. And it's fun to try to think in the way that they think because that's how I come up with the jokes. I think, what's the most extreme way i could take this this obvious thought how can i push it as far as using their mindset not my mindset right and that's it's it's kind of a fun thing to do it's kind of interesting i would

imagine it'd be very fun i find people that believe what they believe very strongly to be extremely attractive yeah and attractive i don't mean like i'm sexually attracted to them i mean attractive like like this is weak like i uh watch a lot of fundamentalist religious videos yeah because i i i really get fascinated by people that are all in i totally agree i love watching those westbrook baptist church uh music videos they're hilarious they're really funny they're like it's i watch that i think god you you believe this i mean like this is this is crazy to an extreme extent but they again they're sincere they are sincere but i like it with all religions i've watched it with multiple different religions with islam and christianity and mormonism i've watched a lot of videos where people really, really, really believe.

And then the other people really believe too. And there's something attractive about that. And I think it's, but watch it to try to understand it. Right. Because my parents are, my stepdad and my mom were basically atheists. I was raised by atheists. And before that I was Catholic. So I was Catholic till I was like first grade and then from

then on you know when my mom married my stepdad was all no there was no religion in the household right and so i've always been kind of fascinated by people that have this intense belief in something yeah and particularly something that's really not logical like if you laid the tenants out like wait a minute he came back to life? Okay. And turned water into wine? That's the nature of, I mean, I come from a Catholic family as well, you know, and I think, my mother was a postulant nun,

so it's a very, yeah, Irish as well. Heavy. Pretty heavy, yeah. Yeah, I recently saw pictures of her in The Habit, you know, it's a scary thing to see. Wow. But yeah, I mean, the belief that you have,

the faith that you have, is irrational by its own definition, but that's not a threat, if you have, the faith that you have is irrational by its own definition. But that's not a threat if you have that genuine. Part of the joy of faith, I think, is that you are believing it in spite of rational thought. Right. Yeah. The joy of believing in something that you – and I think there's something about that where you like the fact that other people also aren't questioning it. Right. where you like the fact that other people also aren't questioning it.

Right. Like when you see people at church, one of the things they like, I believe this, is that they like the fact that you're not questioning it either. Good Lord is going to look after us, Sam. Yes, he is, Tom. And they like this sort of simple, really in-the-box kind of thinking from you because if I know that you think like that, I can kind of predict how you're going to at least behave most of the time and don't we all have a it's much more fun isn't it to read someone who agrees with you than someone who's challenging you because because challenging

takes its effort right yeah it's exhausting so i but i think what you've identified there applies to all ideologies whether it's political or religious you know i think you know i've noticed this with with ideologues is that when i talk to someone who say someone says something really woke say someone says like i think um the movie dunkirk should have had more people of color which was a common criticism at the time once they've said something that's that woke i then know every other opinion they have on everything else they never surprise me because because they've got a series of things that they believe and that's the same with the religious person someone says i'm a catholic well i know what you believe about transubstantiation or whatever you know and that means that you're

not thinking for yourself then yeah they have this predetermined pattern of behavior yeah which is why ideology scares me full stop which is why i don't mind saying conservatives are right about some things left-wingers are right about other things and and and having the discussion and accepting that i'm probably wrong about an awful lot of stuff as well like that to me is is better than saying i know all the answers as like a marxist would or a woke person would or a catholic would or whatever what we need to do is create an ideology of open-mindedness but that wouldn't be an ideology right of course it wouldn't be but they always accuse they will say that so the anti-woke thing they'll say is an ideology in of itself to be open that's like saying that

atheism is a religion it's not it's not the same thing well some atheists do act like religious people though which is weird well they absolutely know for sure that nothing happens to you when you die and like well you don't know that but the burden of proof is on those who claim that it does surely like well because they're the ones making yes if you want to say that you know for sure that you go to heaven and you ride around the clouds and saint peter's there with a book and there's a harp and god's there and yes yeah the burden of proof is on you yeah but if you want to say that absolutely nothing happens to you when you die you're sure i say okay have you died yeah you never died so how do you know right you don't okay well you

gotta say you don't know because if you soon as you say you know something that i know you can't know then i know you're bullshitting and you might be bullshitting about something that is logical like atheism right it's logical that there probably isn't a guy in the clouds with a harp because it doesn't seem to make much sense but you don't know what the fuck happens when you die that is a fair point and and richard dawkins addressed that point in his book the god delusion because he says he is actually a de facto atheist insofar as he there's a room for agnosticism there like not 0.001 he will acknowledge the possibility that there might be an afterlife or something like that also never done psychedelic drugs and I talked to him about that has he not no I

don't he's worried about it yeah and I'm like come on bro you're dying you know like he's worried about the impact of it well he's worried about the effect on his body and right okay I'm like the people listen just take a small dose of mushrooms and I guarantee you'll have a very different perspective on reality itself. He'll have visions, and he might be sort of lured into the religious side. Well, I don't think it'll lure you into religion unless you live in thousands of years ago before science, but it would give you the idea that there is perhaps something available.

There's levels of consciousness. There's things available to regular human beings that take in these molecules right and that people have been doing this and this has been the source of religious experiences for thousands and thousands of years there's books written about it i'm sure you know i mean i consider myself quite a spiritual person i'm you know i think that's i think that's fine i think it's a tainted word though why what's wrong with that because people spiritual is like uh like whenever people say that they're – I'm spiritual. That's one of those words that makes me think you're into crystals. No, I'm not into – no, I don't mean it like that.

You know what I mean? But in America, spiritual is like – it's sort of tainted by yoga people. Oh, I see. Yeah, Wiccan and – They say namaste. Okay. You know what I mean? i don't mean that nothing wrong with that either i know it's it's people that they they go with that i mean i mean that

there's something numinous about humanity and about life and about existence and i mean that there's something wondrous about it and there's something that is is beyond the mere animal oh agreed yeah that's all that's all i mean by that yeah i think so too and you know and that's why i'm deeply deeply distrustful of people that are cruel. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Absolutely. But that's one of the reasons I don't like the woke lot.

Yes. Because I think pretty much everything I do is driven by a hatred of bullying. Yeah. I hate bullying. I hated it when I was a kid. I hated it when I was one, right? You know, no, I didn't hate it when I was one, but I hated it subsequently when I got bullied. But, you know, that thing of like bullying people is just the most it's childish it's the

way children behave when they're trying to seek dominance over other people yeah and anyone who claims that anyone who bullies someone so viciously and claims to be the good guy i can't bear that right that to me is the most yes i agree and they feel justified in their bullying which is fascinating well it's that thing that steven weinberg said about you know in order for good people to do bad things it takes a form of religion and that's i think that's i think what we see it's all going back to what we were talking about earlier it is is these patterns of behavior that we have seen since the beginning of time so that means we've we've solved it i think we can work out it's about de-radicalizing yes it's acknowledging that it's an ideology but then you're faced with the criticism that you're setting up a new ideology to combat that ideology so it's about it's about

you probably are unless yeah okay unless you say it's about open-mindedness i think you have to be very strong to exist without a real clear ideology you have to be very strong well you have guiding principles yes and you have and there are i do believe some universal um but to never submit to dogma to never submit you should well guard against it and and and and above all be willing to listen to people you don't agree with above you i think can do that the people that would be coerced by the nazis to join the party because they got into a chat room yeah there's a problem there and i think you know i had a joke about people that were explaining something to my daughter when she was asking me why people certain why people believe things and i say some people have big ears some people have big ears. Some people have small ears, right? Well, some people have brains that are made out of dog shit.

Right. And that's just how it goes. And there's not much you can do about those folks. Unless, is that not just a failure of education, you know? It's a little bit of a failure of education. In some instances, it's definitely that. But in some instances, some people are dull. They're just not very bright but

if we had a society where people were socialized well you know because i think being an autonomous adult absolutely depends on being socialized effectively as a child yeah but you know there's some people have you ever been to a comedy hypnotism show what i didn't know that existed yeah yeah it's really there was a big thing back in Massachusetts. When I started doing stand-up in Boston, there was a guy named Frank Santos, and he was a famous hypnotist. Great guy. Yeah. And Frank was the best.

He was a genius at it. And he would get people on stage like, who wants to be hypnotized? And he did a show that was weekly at Stitch's Comedy Club in Boston. Yeah. Comics, like myself, would all go to watch because it was guaranteed hilarious. So we would go to the comedy club and we would sit in the back and watch Frank Santos bring, he would bring like 10 people on stage and he would hypnotize them in front of everybody. And some people he couldn't hypnotize. And I don't mean hypnotize like sit you down,

because I've been hypnotized before, where they sit you down. Like my friend Vinny Shorman, who's a hypnotist, who works with fighters and or like a mental coach and he basically gets you into a calm state and starts introducing ideas to you this is not like that frank would do this publicly in front of people and he could get a certain percentage of people to just go with suggestion and he'd be like you right now are having sex with madonna you're on top of madonna you can't even believe it oh my god you're so happy you're gonna come in your pants and he would do that and the guy would go oh like they would come in their pants and they would actually ejaculate yes they would ejaculate okay so and they didn't know what happened and then he would go you're gonna go to

sleep now and he would tell him go to sleep and they would just just drop their head and he would know when they were bullshitting and he would know when they were not bullshitting and I had long conversations with him about this. I'm like, how do you do this? And he had been hypnotizing people forever to quit smoking. He was a legitimate hypnotist

but he's like, some people are just really susceptible. Is it partly performative though in those situations? Is it that some of them are thinking, there's an audience there,

I better do what I'm told or even on a subconscious level? I would think that but he knew when they were not under. Okay. Dude, it was crazy. It's crazy to watch and it's not you and it's not him and it's not me there's certain people the people that would join the cult there's certain people so you're talking about suggestible people

who are instinctively suggestible right the like the hail bop comic cult remember that the heaven's gate cult they cut their balls off and wore purple nikes and they waited for the cotton then they all killed themselves right when the comet was coming do you remember that actually this does ring a bell yeah but who the fuck would do that who would do that people with really dull minds there's certain people look some people are tall some people are short some people's brains don't work well all right but even i think i this is a this is something where we don't agree is it like because i think ultimately what do you do even if you do identify that, even if you say in society there are these people who are suggestible and just stupid. Let's call it what it is. Stupid people.

Dull-minded. Low IQ. They still have every right to live in our society and be treated well and all the rest of it. For sure. And I don't think we should just change all our laws and traditions and the way we do things because some people are going to react like idiots and some people are going to... Oh, I know. I'm with you 100%. I'm not saying that we should. I'm just saying it's always going to be a problem.

That's a really good way of approaching it is to acknowledge that it's always going to be a problem. This is often the argument used for censorship, isn't it? If you put out a film that is particularly violent, of course most people aren't going to react to it, but some will. Well, fine. Some will, but those same people could be triggered by absolutely violent of course most people aren't going to react to it but some will yes well fine some will but that but that those same people could be triggered by absolutely anything could be it

could be an angry word that a relative said it could be a news item that they saw we still have to live in the world as it exists and not try and absolutely coddle everyone and try and prevent any possibility of transgression i 100 agree with you and i'm on your side but i'm saying even if you do your best yeah there's going to be a certain amount of people that are just not going the education's not going to sink in the the evaluation of things on an objective level is never going to work that's because you're dealing with human beings and that's that's why when when when the social justice movement think that they can attain this utopia they think they can wipe out prejudice

they think that like i think that what you can do is you can try and limit it as much as possible and confront it where it exists but but it is delusional to think that you're going to get rid of malevolence and human and human fallibility and oftentimes they suffer from their own prejudice right exactly you know did you see the thing with don lemon on cnn with those two guys where they started mocking trump supporters and and pretending they're stupid and using a Southern accent. And I'm like, you guys,

that's going to be a deplorable prejudice. Yeah, exactly. And you're pretending it's funny, which is even more offensive as a comedian. You know, that shit ain't funny. And Don Lemon's like,

and then afterwards, even worse, he says he didn't realize that people were being mocked and he didn't hear all of it yeah he said he he was laughing over them speaking or something so he didn't hear the whole thing realize that they were saying things that were offensive i'm sorry i would never mock anyone because some forms of prejudice are okay and some aren't okay right you know exactly the one i really love about the social justice law maybe this is just a British thing, but they're all really ageist. They've got a real problem with old people, right?

Old white people. Old white people, right? Well, there's that form of prejudice. I think it's because of Brexit, because disproportionately older people voted for Brexit. So they're like, oh, I don't care about old people. In fact, you even have the left-leaning papers, like the Guardian and the Independent, sort of talking like, well, they're all going to die off soon, and then we can have another vote. Yes. Well, that's not how it works. It's not like old to die off soon and then we can have another vote yes but that's not how it works it's like it's not like old people die off

and then there are no more old people like people get older people change their minds it was really but it was also really toxic it was this thing of like uh you know they've fucked up the future for the young and they're they're all you know it was really ugly yeah and for some reason these people who claim that immutable characteristics must be protected doesn't matter if you're old yeah go for you if you're old or if you're like you say straight white male straight white males themselves yeah yeah but i don't know how you can see that as anything is hypocritical well to make that point you're logical and you're intelligent you're objective of course you can't but they're woke you know i mean it's they they might as well be in that Heaven's Gate cult.

It's the same thing. Well, I think, I wonder if a lot of it is coming from the media, is coming from the press, is coming from the, we've got, I don't know what it's like. I mean, we saw that article from the New York Times. We've got stuff like that. We've got this paper, The Guardian and The Independent. They are pushing this stuff. Hardcore itself. Every single day.

And there's a lot of hate clicks too. Yeah. Oh, so if, actually, shall I give you this example? Do you know that I trolled The hate clicks too yeah oh they so if actually shall i give you this example do you know that i trolled the independent the newspaper no right so i um wanted to test as an experiment right whether they would publish something really stupidly woke just because it's woke right so i submit in an article like james lindsey and right yeah like like on a smaller scale you know but i i thought i wrote an article arguing that comedians ought to be prosecuted for hate speech right that mentioning a few comics

mentioned and it was so obviously a hoax and so obviously stupid and i made up a name and i sent it in and they got back to me like this is brilliant we love this this is amazing they were really loving it and they published it it's still online and what's even worse how can someone how can we find right it's called uh the name is liam if you search liam evans is that your name yeah that's my fate liam evans independent and the headline is something uh like it's something to do with comedy if you search that it'll come up hate speech hate speech or um how many of these online fake names so here it is right as a comedy aficionado, I'm appalled at disgusting jokes creeping back into the industry. And look at the tagline.

Comedians crying free speech isn't good enough. Hate crime law should apply to all of us. Now, the thing about this article, if you take the fourth letter of every sentence, it spells out, Titania McGrath wrote this, you gullible hacks. And they published it. and it's still up there and this is a mainstream oh my god that's hilarious it's a mainstream newspaper it's a it's one of our major it's amazing that you were able to encode that well it also shows that they did fuck all editing they just took it because they loved what it was saying and of course the

point isn't to try and fool people or be mean to people or anything. It's exposing this thing that the media, the woke media, if it furthers their agenda, they'll publish anything

by someone who wasn't even known. He had no online presence, this guy. It's just they agreed with the sentiment. So they published it in their paper. You could just be a random,

some random person sends it in and they're like, brilliant. Yeah, they just agree. And they put it in a national. You could just be a random. Some random person sends it in, and they're like, brilliant. Yeah, they just agree. And they put it in a national paper. That was the Independent. You know, it's, I can't believe they haven't taken it down yet. They will now.

Well, I only sort of revealed it a couple of months ago in this speech I gave. It was the one where I was with Peter and James Lindsay. And it went online. But I suppose not many people know about it. about it but yeah they'll probably take it down now yeah but you know fuck them because i actually think raise your standards you know yes like you don't you stop feeding us this this ideological bullshit i think there's an issue too with online journalism that these people are basically fighting for their own survival there's not a lot of money in it it's hard to get clicks you have to have clickbait titles you have to

attack people for things like in order to get like real engagement yeah you have to kind of give into a certain amount of madness it's not depressing that's the same reason why the most extreme ideas on Twitter get more retweets. They get rewarded, don't they, with likes and retweets and everything. It's like the whole, but that shouldn't, I have a real old-fashioned view of the media.

I want to hold them to high standards, and I don't want them to be going for clickbait and saying the most extreme things. I think you're right, and I think they do it for that reason, but I just wish they wouldn't. I mean, save that for for some like the huffington post doing stuff like women are evil that was one headline women are evil and you know stuff like like buzzfeed does it as well and you just think but but when it comes to sort of reputable publications like the new york times

and you know like the washington post why are they pushing this i think they're struggling so you think it's just about money i think that's a viable way to generate clicks. And clicks is what generates income. And I think there's a real issue. I know guys who are journalists, and women as well, who will tell you that if their articles do not get a certain amount of engagement, they're in trouble. They can't just print things. Everything has to be something that is engaging it has to be it has to be attractive but even but look what facebook's

algorithm does right yeah i mean one of the things that facebook's algorithm does is it sort of in some way encourages people to be upset about things because it shows you a lot of things that you engage with and a lot of times people tend to engage with things that they're upset by. Yeah. So whether it's abortion or second amendment or whatever the subject is. Right. If you have an engagement with that and you, you, you respond a lot and you start, and that's what they're going to show you over and over and over again.

And it's really more of a symptom of what human beings are attracted to. A lot of times we're attracted to things that upset us. But that's going to spiral further and further out of control. I mean, what are you logical? The culture war is being motored is engineered by, by, by all of this stuff out there.

And, and that's the argument against Facebook, right? The culture war has been engineered by algorithms. Yeah. And although I'm really torn on this actually, cause I'm so, I'm so against censorship in all it's,

you know, I really am. But this actually because I'm so against censorship I really am but I want if journalists and commentators had high standards and were just being honest first and foremost and they had integrity and they weren't just after clicks then half of this

stuff would go away I feel some of it would go away, my question is they weren't doing this 15 years ago. No. So what will they be doing 15 years from now? Well. Will this wear out? Will this dry up?

So that's the question, isn't it? Are we going to reach a tipping point? Right. That's the question. Right. Because every time I think we're nearly at the tipping point, they double down and it gets worse. Right. So, you know, after Trump's election, for instance, right, almost immediately you had the Women's March. And I didn't really know what that was about. Like it was it was some people were marching for feminism. Some people marching for environmental issues. Some people much.

It was really incoherent. Yes. A lot of them were dressed in the pink pussy hats and giant vagina costumes and stuff like that. I thought, what what are you protesting here? Are you saying that, you know, and a lot of them had banners saying not my president. Right. So they're protesting against democracy then in that case the same thing in the uk when when we just had our general election there was a big march with loads of people with

banners saying not my prime minister boris johnson not my well he is your prime minister because we had a democratic mandate and that's how this works right so i think what are you but seriously what is the point of that protest like i think they're just showing unity. They're showing that they're all together in their anger about this and that in the future they're going to be a combined force and they're going to make sure that this doesn't happen again. I think there's a better way to do it without generating so much resentment. I think there's a more sophisticated approach, which is to say that democracy sustained on the principle of the loser's consent. Any democracy is going to have a substantial proportion of the population who did not vote on the principle of the loser's consent any democracy is going to have a substantial proportion of the population who did not vote for the leader of that

and you have to have that and the best way is to is through persuasion and sensible discussion and of the issues not dressing up as a vagina that's just my view on that yeah no I agree with you in many ways but i also think for

them it's also fun to get together with a bunch of other like-minded people and you know and then there's the the men who joined in hey girls i'm with you okay the fun thing i can get on board with but the marches after boris johnson's election weren't about fun they were there that was an explosion of rage. I didn't see that. But it is weird to me that he looks like Trump. He looks like your version of Trump. I think he's not the same.

He's not the same, but he's got wacky hair. Yeah. And he's got that reputation of saying what he thinks and all the rest of it. So there's similarities, but I don't think they're comparable. Boris, I don't support Boris, but he's very smart and he's very yeah he's a smart guy and he's um you know i've never voted for his party we're ignorant to your country over here yeah what was his platform well so he's in the conservative party we only pay attention to the queen and the king really the prince and which whatever prince is in trouble because he was banging chicks on fuck island which oh prince andrew and then there was the other prince who's leaving but you pay attention to that you're more

interested in the family that they have no power at all in our country and you know ridiculous i mean you you stole uh harry from us didn't you yes we got him now you got him back um uh and you turned him woke you turned him really woke and then you stole is he woke oh my god prince harry yeah yeah so so megan markle is completely she turned him into a wokester 100 and bear in mind he used to be the one who used to go sort of parties and do drugs and i don't know if he did drugs actually i should qualify that she made him woke but um yeah he's he's he's super woke now well he's gonna move to canada it's a good place to be woke that's why but they're also saying that he can't move to canada because if you're a royal from england

you're not supposed to have a primary residence in Canada. Is that because it's part of the Commonwealth or something? Yes. The idea is like, you can't come in there and take over

because if you did... Yeah, but he's lost his title now. I know. So all of that stuff. He needs to get it back. He calls grandma. That says a lot, doesn't it? She was pissed off.

Oh, my God. And she just said, no, you can't have your title. You've got to pay for your cottage, all that money you took from the taxpayers. You've got to pay for that. It's not a cottage, by the way.

It's a big estate, but they call it Frogmore Cottage. But it's funny to me that you guys over here are more interested in some sort of outmoded, an archaic institution like the royal family. So there isn't really an awareness of our political situation. We know Brexit bad. Brexit bad. But Brexit is not bad. That's all we hear. You hear Brexit bad but why racist right okay it's it bad but that can i say this because i know

brexit probably bores people but the problem with the whole brexit thing is people thought it was about right at race people thought it was like you voted for the eu if you were a good person and voted against if you're a bad person correct it. It wasn't that. No? No. We've been lied to? You've been lied to. Most people voted because they wanted the idea. In fact, the polls straight after the vote said that the number one reason why people voted Brexit is they wanted the laws to govern their country

to be made within their country, which strikes me as a very reasonable proposition, right? If you're a Democrat, you want to be able to vote out the people in power. You can't vote out those bureaucrats in Brussels. You can't do it. That's the principle. It's not because we want to be able to vote out the people in power you can't vote out those bureaucrats in brussels you can't do it that's the principle it's not because we want to go back to some pre-war nostalgic all-white country this is a complete lie and it's just experientially unsound i mean i don't meet anyone like that you know but that's the way it's been spun

you know what and and also by the way if you're left wing and you're supporting the eu which is this neoliberal trading bloc that is really pro-corporate, ruthlessly so, then I don't know how you can even call yourself left wing, to be honest. So what is the anger in the streets in England? It's because of the well, this goes back to what we're saying about the press. So we had six months of debate on the Brexit issue before people voted. So people really knew what they were voting for. They knew what these issues were about but the media was constantly spinning and saying if you vote uh leave you're a racist and if you vote to remain in the eu you're one of the good

guys that was the narrative they were spinning from the start and people would and you know what it did it did that thing of generating resentment did anybody step out that's that's logical and objective and say hey yeah you can you can look at this in a different way? But those voices got drowned out by the utter swill that was being spilt out all the time, right? And I'm not denying that there are some racists in the UK and that some of them might have voted leave. There were probably some racists who voted remain, whatever. But there's such a minority. remain whatever um but there's such a minority and when you've got a media class constantly saying to you you're you all you poor working class people you're scum you're racist you hate

you know whatever then they're going to go in that voting booth and they're going to they're going to say fuck you and they're going to vote out and that's what happened and it was a big backlash against being patronized people hated it you know and it's that i i you know i hate that narrative that we live in a racist country when be absent and that brexit is used as evidence but i see it as comparable i think it's very different to the trump election but i see the one thing that i think is comparable is that the premise right if you've got all these sort of woke activists who say that they believe that we live in this fascist country and that they believe a fascist would vote for trump and then when trump wins they use that as evidence for the premise that they set up

right and that's why they double premise that they set up, right? And that's why they double down because they're saying, well, he won, so therefore we were right all along. We're a country full of fascists. And it's like, yeah, but your premise wasn't right.

So that, and that's how, that's how we need to break that sort of cycle of doubling down on the same bullshit and guaranteeing Trump another term by doing so, by the way, I'm pretty sure. Probably.

It really depends on how many people get behind Bernie. Right. And whether or not Bernie actually gets through. The DNC does not want Bernie. Right. So there's – But they didn't last time, did they? No.

They don't like him. They fudged it. It's really fascinating. I don't know what it is because I'm not that well-versed. Is it because he's a socialist? Is it because – you know? I don't – I think they because I'm not that well-versed. Is it because he's a socialist? I think they have zero control over him. I think that's part of the issue as well. Well, in the UK, the comparable figure is Jeremy Corbyn.

He's full-on socialist left-wing. But he, by the way, hates the EU. That's the other complicated thing. I think it's also corporate money. He won't take anything. Right. But that's a socialist principle. Yes.

Right. Yeah. And I think the resistance is the rest of them want that money is like the word socialist over here just a proper dirty word like a real like because you've had you've had this history of i remember all that stuff about the fear of socialized medicine you always hear that sort of thing like you know we've got an nhs that works pretty well we've got a national health service that works so you know and you also have independent doctors too right so if you have a lot of money you could get yeah you can go private fix your knee yeah you can yeah that's right if you know if you're if you're one of the you know if you're poor though the difference

is you can get treated you can get treated like if you if you get if you're poor here and you haven't got health insurance don't you just die if you get no i mean there's medicaid but is that my prejudice it's yeah i mean there there are some systems that are in place but they're not good they're not they're not ideal and a lot of people get saddled down with horrible medical debt if they do get injured well i think that i've got an american friend who had a very serious illness in england and he uh the nhs were brilliant and it was like these people you know this is You know, didn't have to pay for anything. You know, I think there's something really beautiful about that.

I love our NHS. And I know people criticize it and say, obviously, there's going to be mistakes with such a big institution like that. And there's going to be bureaucrats and all the rest of it. But it's a really wonderful thing that anyone can get treated and they're not going to have a big bill at the end of it. I really love that. get treated and they're not going to have a big bill at the end of it i really love that we're conditioned to think that anything that involves anything socialist or anything free anything that's paid for by the government where someone can't make the ultimate amount of profit right it de-incentivizes them from being very good oh i see right when we think about a doctor we want a doctor

that is pushing really hard to be the best doctor so he can get a Ferrari and a big house because that guy's going to kick ass. That's the American mindset. That's the capitalist mindset, isn't it? Particularly the American mindset. But I'm not. It's not just capitalism. It's exceptionalism.

And it's like wanting to be number one. I want, hey, who'd you get to do your knee? Oh, I got Dr. Gettleman. He's the fucking best. Right. He does the Lakers. That guy does dr gettleman he's the fucking best right he's you know he does the lakers that guy does the patriots he's the fucking man yeah he fixes knees i go to him you know and so everybody wants to go and you recommend him do you know a good shoulder doctor oh yeah dr goldberg he's the man he does the fucking boxers he did floyd mayweather like that

kind of shit it's alien to me like you know a shoulder doctor I would you know you just go to the NHS and they give you the doctor they give it I think I'm not against incentive the idea of incentives and people like striving to make their lives better and everything like that I think that's absolutely fine but but like if Anthony Joshua say if Anthony Joshua needs shoulder surgery you know he's not going to NHS if you if you're rich you'll go to private for For a good reason, right? Because he's probably a better doctor. No. No?

No, I'll tell you why. A shoulder specialist? Look at Anthony Joshua. His shoulders are everything, right? He's a puncher. That's his whole thing. He's not all punches. If he blows his shoulders out, he's fucked.

It isn't the case that the NHS has substandard doctors. It isn't the case. And the reason for that is it's a vocational thing. So most doctors feel obliged, feel an obligation, a moral obligation to work for the nhs and they do so for many years doctors are great people like if you if you go into that profession it's because you want to help people isn't it not because you want the ferrari i think in america it's because you want the ferrari is that right okay no a lot of them want to help people well they're brilliant people it's a very difficult thing to achieve yeah like. Like to be a doctor, a physician, in fact.

It's very hard. Yeah, of course. It's a lot of work and you deserve to be paid well. Yes, I do so. But I also think it comes from a moral place. It comes from a place of good. Ideally, yes. Ideally, you definitely would think that, yeah.

Right. But I think our NHS proves that, I mean, doctors are reasonable. They're not poor. They can have nice things. You know, it's not,'s not i imagine i mean i'm speaking out of ignorance here i don't know how the nhs is portrayed over here how our health service is portrayed over here but do you see it as like this scary communist thing where oh yeah they leave fucking forceps in people's abdomens and shit and they don't forget to stitch people up well i'm sure that happens we're all human right we all make mistakes but look i have friends that have experienced socialized medicine in canada in particular and

had some really bad results okay so that is one of the things that people can't you experience bad results on a private system 100 right and have and i know friends over here that have but our prejudice is aha i told you i told you it's that socialized medicine but meanwhile i also have friends that mock us for having to pay for things when you got to go to the doctor pay for things if you get ill or if you get injured yeah you're so stupid why do you have to pay for that that's crazy yeah well there's a great video where a man in the uk is walking around asking people in england what do you think it costs to do this in England, what do you think it costs to do this in America? What do you think it costs to give birth? It's crazy. Yeah, it's a lot. People like,

oh, $100, like $10,000. 10,000? Yeah. Like people go crazy. But also, don't you think like if there's a cash incentive for doctors and medicine and the pharmaceutical industry, there's something really dangerous about that. And that's why you've got people who you know whenever an insurance claim comes in you've got these lawyers who are hired to try and undermine the claim and to find some pre-existing condition from years ago so and leave you to die because the because the incentive is all about money not about humanity and that's that's the real scary accusations are unnecessary surgeries right and i have been suggested to have unnecessary surgery personally. Right, there we go.

I have avoided it and become very healthy without the surgery. You see, I, yeah. It's because people want to make more money out of you. I think it's also because if they have a hammer,

they want to hit a nail. Right, yeah. You know, like, this is what I do. You need a surgery on your neck. Well, on a small level, I experienced that when I went to a private dentist to say, what do I need a surgery on your neck well on a on a small on a small level i experienced that when i went to a private dentist to say what do i need done and he told me basically that my whole mouth was rotten and was dying and it would cost that it wasn't true i went to an nhs dentist said no you just got a couple of issues there we'll sort it

out it'll be 20 quid or something oh that's a real problem in america as well you know but this other dentist obviously wanted to make as much money out of me as possible it's so dark you know it's so dark that someone would be willing to do that. Some guy got arrested recently because he was pulling teeth that he didn't have to pull. Oh, come on. Yeah, it's so fucked up. It's so fucked up that someone would do that. So that's the downside of the cash incentive.

For bad people. But again, that falls in the face of your narrative that people that get into medicine are good people. They're not always good people. They're not always good people. They're not always good people. Okay, I'm willing to concede that point. Especially, but then maybe they are good people if they do it in a national healthcare system, but if they are compromised

and it becomes an issue of making money, then they might compromise. So I think I've worked out a common thread in our discussion, which is that I tend to think that most people are generally good and i don't think you do am i right i think like i admit they're bad people when people are good i think it's great when people you see that as an aberration from the norm right i don't think it's an aberration but i i take into consideration the fact that some people suck right i'm willing to do that as well but i think humanity on the whole is underrated and that we there are oh yeah for sure there's no way we'd be able to live

yeah think about how often you go to the movie theater or a restaurant or a bar and you're surrounded by people and no one does anything bad yeah look i live in the public eye right and i do everything like i do so many things in front of large groups of people. Yeah. And you trust them. Most people are great. Most people are great. I do comedy, and I'm always in front of live groups of people. 99.99999% of people are awesome. Even hecklers, they're good people. They just get a little drunk. Are they?

They're not in the UK. They're annoying. They're annoying here, too, but they're just drunk. Because you can't live any other way, can you? You can't live any other way but to trust humanity and to trust other people and to trust that people are essentially good. And that's why I think ultimately these things will be subverted and end, you know, like the woke movement. I think we have a problem in America as well with education being so fucking insanely expensive and insurance for doctors being so insanely expensive that you get these doctors in this position where they're really over the barrel.

They have so much debt, and so they are incentivized to try to do these unnecessary surgeries. Okay, that's a very good point, yeah. I mean, I know absolutely nothing about your education system. I should just put that out there. It's so expensive. Right. And you don't, it's not that expensive in England, right?

I think not comparable, really. Like, how much would it cost to do a degree here, say, for instance, if you want to be a lawyer or something? that out there so expensive right and you don't you're it's not that expensive in england i think not not comparable really like how much would it cost to do a degree here say for instance if you want to be a lawyer or something that's a good question let's uh i'm sure we can google that let's say from the first year of your university study to passing the bar yeah what kind of debt jamie are most lawyers in just college college, right? Yeah, just law school, college, law school. Does it matter where? Does it change depending on the universe? Oh, yeah.

So Ivy League, say. Okay, let's go with Harvard. Let's go with the big boys. So if you're in Ivy League, it helps you to get a job, presumably. Yes. He graduated from Harvard. He's the cream of the crop, my boy. Okay.

Yeah. You're fucked, though. You're half a million in the hole before you even get going. In the UK, it's standardized. 65K a year. That's a hell of a lot. $65,000. So more than most people make a year, you have to spend on your education while you're not making any money

so 65k a year just think that's stacking up one two three four five six i suppose what they're saying is that's an investment for the future because if you do this you'll get the great job and maybe but you're almost four hundred thousand dollars in the hole by the time you graduate in you're not making any money it's nowhere near like that in the uk it's horrible we and we have a really good student loan system where the the interest is minimal and you don't have to pay it back until you're earning a certain amount and all that and in fact i when i went to university i was the last year to get a full grant i didn't pay for anything the government paid for absolutely everything that's awesome because it was also

means tested back then because my family weren't well off i got just everything got paid for that's awesome i mean that's ideal i would love that i mean and for sure some people get scholarships in america as well right i would just like it if people didn't have to start their life once they're out of education already hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt yeah it's just such a burden but also what do you do if you are from a poorer background how can you possibly you can get scholarships you can get scholarships you definitely can but you have to have very good grades okay and you know i think with a lot of people that they get out of school first of all a lot of people sign up for this debt when they're 17 18 years old they don't even know what the fuck

they're doing yeah and you they're going on, we got a loan for you. Get in there. Go to work. Who the hell knows what they want to do at 17 or 18? No one knows. And if you don't, you get shamed. You feel terrible if you're not going straight to school. I heard this recently at Harvard specifically.

Right. Sorry, I popped it up on there. 20% of Harvard families pay nothing for their students to attend. Well, those are probably just 20% kick-ass fucking super good students who get great... It's like a bar of 65K for your family income. I think it's like a scholarship for low-income families or something like that. But you have to have, obviously, stellar grades, right? You have to be accepted, obviously.

Obviously, just to get into Harvard in the first place. But do you think it's an effective meritocracy, then, in the U.S.? There's aspects of it that are effective, but it's definitely not perfect. And the student loan issue is a gigantic one. I feel like if we spend so much of our tax money on so many different things that people disagree with, and how much would it cost to have, I mean, I'm not talking about for people to don't try. I mean, you should definitely have, there should definitely be requirements for you to get a free education. Right.

But it should be definitely much easier than it is now. Yeah. And how is your, what you'd call in our country, the public school system, as in the... Terrible.

Like, as in if you've got nothing and you go to the local comprehensive school. Well, the real issue is high schools. High schools, okay. High schools and grade schools. Like, if you're poor, God damn it, there okay. High schools and grade schools. If you're poor, God damn it, there's some rough schools in this country

and they don't get paid much and the teachers don't give a shit. And there's some good ones. There's definitely some good ones and there's definitely some people, even in some bad neighborhoods, that get some good educations, but that's few and far between.

And this is the point, is that if you are from one of those backgrounds, the odds are stacked against you. Yes, they are. So it's all very well sort of saying that anyone can succeed if they work hard but not really no not really yeah no not really you definitely don't get as good in advance i mean if you look at the when they show how well kids do in uh private school and for the rest of versus public school pretty staggering differences and you know and i see i

see the argument both ways, that the people that are in the private school, they're there because their parents care more and they pay more attention so the kids study harder. But if those same kids are in public school and they studied just as hard, they would get by. But yeah, but they'd be dealing with crime and violence and all kinds of other shit that the kids in the private schools

aren't dealing with, and much more stress, and even more stress at home. And like, there's a lot of issues. I find it astonishing that people won't acknowledge that some people are more advantaged in certain ways. This is why I think when it comes to social advantageous or the way in which people are prioritized or privileged over other people, it's mostly about money. Ultimately, when we talk about privilege all the time, we hear things about white privilege and heterosexual privilege and stuff like that actually ultimately it's about cash it's about who's the richest that's for sure that's a big part of it for sure and i think that stuff is obscured by all the other the other stuff that

well anybody who thinks white privilege is universal needs to go to kentucky and see the coal miners right because there's some there's some families that live in these insane rural communities in West Virginia. They're so poor. They're so fucked. And everyone around them is on pills. And no one has any money. And there's just crime and just poverty. I mean, I have a friend who's from there.

He's like, man, you've never seen poverty like this. So couldn't they just come up with a different phrase than white privilege? Because I get the point they're trying to make, which is that if you have two people from exactly the same backgrounds the the person of color is going to face more prejudice right i get that point and that's yes that's right but the problem is not white privilege the problem is prejudice right yes exactly the prejudice don't combat white people don't experience the prejudice right and for the white people that do have this advantage that they don't experience prejudice, the only reason why that exists is because of racism. Right.

The actual problem is racism. The problem is racism. Absolutely. Yeah. It's not white privilege. No. And just rhetorically, it's a really bad thing to – because people just hear the word privilege and they think, I'm not privileged. Why are they –

Especially poor white people. Yeah. There's an activist in the UK called Munro Bergdorf. And the phrase she used was, you can still be homeless and have white privilege. Oh, good Lord. And I just think, how is that a helpful thing to say? Even if you could break it down philosophically and sort of prove your point and just think in terms of how you come across when you say that. You know, that's not.

Again, woke. Yeah. It's just the religion. that's not. Again, woke. Yeah. It's just the religion. It's their part of the religion. And we really should start referring to it as a religion. We should, but then there will be some pushback on that. Church of woke. Church of woke.

Hey, they get tax-free status. Just show up at the woke cathedral. Yeah. And give all your money to transgender people or whatever. They've got their high priests, haven't they? Yes, they do. They've got their saints. They canonize certain people. They've got their high priests, haven't they? Yes, they do. They've got their saints. They canonize certain people.

They've got all of the hallmarks. But I just think, I have described it in those terms and I have done today. But is that really an effective way to challenge it? Isn't that just going to get people's backs up? Isn't that going to get people a bit? Everything you say about it will get people's backs up. But I think at least it will make people understand that there are some fundamental patterns in human behavior that have existed from the beginning of time yeah people like structure and they like they like knowing where the rules are because life

in itself is too open-ended there's too much existential angst there's too many confusing questions that can't be answered there's so much going on in life itself that if you have a very rigid ideology whether it is about a holy creator or whether it's about the fundamental aspects of society that are that are unfair yeah and need to be rallied against whether it's woke ideology or whether it's you know fill in the blank whatever other ideology i just wish i could talk to them more but they refuse to talk to me this is well they don't want to be i mean you could talk to some the same way that megan phelps talked to her husband online you could talk to the ones that are thinking maybe this is bullshit and some of them do think it's bullshit

and i know some of them that have broken free yeah i know some former woke people that have woken up i but i also get a lot of messages from people saying i really like the jokes you're telling but i will never retweet them that too yeah they can't say it but they also want to keep their job you know they don't want anybody harassing them okay there's a lot of that right there's a lot of people that just want to keep their job well maybe then when i was talking about the tipping point and when does it end maybe it's when more people are willing to be honest about their skepticism about the whole thing maybe i think that's coming i think i think is even though think people are being very rabid i think more people are going what in the fuck is they are happy they are and it's the language policing that gets so annoying

words are not the problem folks it's actual's actual prejudice. That's the problem. Of course. You know, I mean, whatever it is, whatever it is, we've got this issue with telling other people what to do. We've got this issue with wanting people to comply with the standards of behavior that we are adhering to. Well, that's what terrifies me about it is the sheer certainty of it when you get into a conversation when in the rare occasions where where someone from the woke movement will will talk to me it's like they've it's never crossed their mind that they could be wrong that it's just not in their realm of existence that they would even possibly think for a second

maybe i've got this a bit wrong and that to me is a horrible I don't know how you challenge that even you know but you can't just like you can't challenge someone who's a believer in the

Westboro Baptist Church but really does want to walk around with those God hates fags but they find their way out don't they eventually some of them do

but not many Megan can't even talk to her mom really yeah her mom won't talk to her anymore they even turned on the leader didn't they turned on Fred he died oh okay did they turn on him after he died said he he was

a sinner as well i think they probably that's probably why they think he died oh is that right nuts if he was truly pure yeah god would have kept him alive and he was probably thinking about homos you know who knows right okay okay at least they're consistent i mean they they are hateful hatefully consistent they are hatefully consistent you know but who knows, man. Right, okay, okay. At least they're consistent. I mean, they are. Hateful, hatefully consistent. They are hatefully consistent, you know, but they don't twist. They are literally interpreting the Bible as it's said, like, in a really scary way. Yeah, very scary way. And the fact that it justifies some pretty horrific actions.

I mean, can you imagine if your soldier, if your son was a soldier and your son got shot down and you're at the funeral and these guys are standing in front of the building where you're having a service and they're saying the reason why your son died is because there's a bunch of people out there that are in love with other men and having sex with men. And so this is the reason why they're going to hold up these giant placards. It's horrible. It's fucking crazy. That's one of the examples that really gets me that challenges me insofar as my free speech yeah position because i just i've i there's some it's so appalling and upsetting when you see that sort of thing but then do i can't i can't say that i want to live in a society where people aren't allowed to protest

right it's messy it's like everything else in human nature it's messy and those woke people need to understand that it's messy too yeah life is messy you can't you can't get 100 compliance from people and if you want that you're a bully yeah you know you're being mean you can't they're not going to do it and you're not right you're not right especially you're definitely not right if you're not willing to debate people on these ideas. You don't even know if you're right. That's what Obama was saying, wasn't it? When he said that, you know, people aren't perfect. Don't expect everyone to be perfect.

Yes. It was brilliant that he said that. And then straight after he said it, there was an article in the New York Times that said basically, what a boomer thing to say. That was what the response was. What a boomer. It's a boomer. That's not serious. That's not a serious response to quite a nuanced point, is it?

No, I think every generation thinks they're going to be the ones that change the world. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's an issue as well. I mean, every generation that comes along thinks that they have the answers that their parents didn't have. I see signs, though, that the younger generation, so Generation Z, or Z, you'd say, are reacting against the millennial generation. And that's probably where the hope lies isn't it? because actually the millennials are getting old now and those ideas

are getting a bit out of fashion and the millennials are going to have to pay their bills the bills are coming and when the bills are coming they're like fuck I've got to get my shit together and then they realise other people aren't working as hard and like hey socialism is great but I'd like you to work, Mike. Yeah.

You know? So ultimately, they'll be destroyed by the realities of a capitalist society. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, the realities of life are show me a young man who is not a liberal and I'll show you a man with no heart. Right. Show me an old man who's not conservative and I'll show you a man with no heart right show me an old man who's not conservative and i'll show you a man with no brain yeah or bernie sanders you just get stuck to his

guns a lot of people develop bills and and react and they see that there's a lot of people that don't want to work hard and there's they make excuses for things when the reality is their own behavior that's been holding them back and there's there's so many realities that are uncomfortable that we have to address as we get older in life and we realize how many people have fallen into these classical pitfalls that maybe our parents had told us about but we thought we knew better when you talk about liberal you mean left-wing here that's what the word is yeah oh yeah so when we use it we don't mean that what does liberal mean over there it means sort of like the tradition of liberalism is a belief in freedom, ultimately.

It's a belief in the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, individual autonomy. It's those kinds of principles which aren't necessarily left and right in that way. So I actually think the liberal standpoint is the solution to everything. And I mean that in the classical liberal tradition. Okay, yeah. So let me give an example so if you for take the trans issue right with the which i know is something that just by talking about is a bit is a bit of a risky thing uh although i think the fact that we're not having discussions and debates about that is part of the problem um but if you take

the liberal position on that what you say is anyone has the right to identify however they want call themselves whatever they want have surgery on their own body do whatever they want to do but then other people have the right to choose the language that they use in in terms of addressing them everyone has their own individual rights and that's the liberal position and that strikes me as the sensible way to do it you know yeah i think that's a sensible way to do it i think we should be nice right yeah i don't think you could legislate that right you can't legislate nice behavior um i think if someone doesn't want to call a trans woman a woman yeah i don't think you could legislate that, right? You can't legislate nice behavior. I think if someone doesn't want to call a trans woman a woman, I don't think you should ever go to jail.

That's what I mean. Because that would be an illiberal position. The woke movement is a fundamentally illiberal movement because it believes in compelled speech. Yes. It believes in not just compelling forms of speech, but also censoring you and saying absolutely what you cannot say. And demanding compliance. So I'm just sick of them calling themselves liberals yeah it really

annoys me you guys definitely have a different definition of liberal yeah yeah yeah liberal in america is essentially mostly left-wing like when we hear people calling themselves a classical liberal liberal over here like oh you're just like a sneaky republican oh that's how we look okay that's not what it means yeah i think i think we need to restore that idea of liberalism as in what it actually means yeah our our classical liberals well maybe jordan jordan peterson is a classical liberal but he's not american you know he's from toronto although everyone says he's conservative don't they he's not no i mean he is in certain things but he's just a believer in responsibility and hard work yes he's a sweetheart of a guy yeah he really is he's very open-minded and very intelligent and you know and i don't

disagree i don't agree with him rather on everything but uh i i definitely respect him and i'm definitely uh and and he's on to something with the with the liberal if you come from a liberal background as well you'll be willing to be challenged and you'll be willing to listen to other people and i think he is. Well, over your country, that Kathy Newman interview became huge. Yeah. So what you're trying to say is like, and he's like, I'll tell you what I'm saying. That's incredible.

You're trying to put words in my mouth. You're trying to distort my position. I think 98% of all the arguments that go on on Twitter would disappear overnight if people just actually faithfully represented what their opponents were saying. Well, if they saw each other in person and faithfully represented, that's a big part. Although the Kathy Newman thing shows that even that doesn't necessarily help. I mean, she did help eventually. But she was literally ignoring what he actually said and substituting it for something. So she wasn't even talking to Jordan Peterson. She was talking to a figment of her imagination called Jordan Peterson.

That's not the same thing. Yes, you're dead right. And that's not an interview. Youment of her imagination called Jordan Peterson. That's not the same thing. Yes. You're dead right. And that's not an interview. You're right. You're dead right. That's exactly what it is. And I think she severely underestimated who he is as a human being.

I also think she hadn't read the book. No. How could she? She's so busy. Yeah. She's a busy, she's a busy woman. She's very talented actually.

I think, you know, I think that was just a, uh, it was a misstep. That's yes. I think that's the best way to describe it. A misstep. And she's been talented actually i think you know i think that was just a uh it was a misstep that's yes i think that's the best way to describe it a misstep and she's been tortured online since then which i would i think is horrible as well you know i think it is yeah but it's easy you know it's easy it's easy for people to pick on her but but but it's good now that we've got that lesson because that came like a meme then didn't it like that so what you're saying is and yes that's a

really good example of this mischaracterization stuff, which is just so the norm now. And now that we've got that example, it's a way to point. You know, I used to teach critical thinking in school at an A level, which is sort of like 16, 17 year old kids. And one of the first things I teach them is about firstly ad hominem attacks. If you throw an insult, you've lost the argument. This is a that's it. It's over. You've lost it.

If you don't faithfully represent what the other person saying saying you've lost the argument okay that's called a straw man yeah so you've got all these things and yet not just people on twitter but but people in the mainstream media and and politicians are failing on these basic principles of critical thinking and argumentation so if we can just restore it back in the educational system so people understand once you throw the insult you've lost it i couldn't agree more but again this is not in compliance with woke ideology it's not that's what frustrates you'd have to adjust woke ideology right and i don't think they're willing to do that because i think they think that they're right uh well yes they do yeah and they have a religion and you know if you think

that you shouldn't take the Lord's name in vain and someone's doing that that person's a sinner but if you go if you can go back to the universities

and you can reinstate critical thinking there that will be the solution I think good luck because you got a lot of woke people teaching I know

that's a problem I know I'm trying to come up with a solution here I really am the solution is Generation Z yeah it is that's a solution hope lies with the children yeah and what what I'm getting all these books like feminist baby what you so I think that shit's gonna work I think

that feminist baby stuff is hilarious and that's also Millennials having kids right the generation Z's are not having kids yet and I think they're probably not I think the younger people will laugh at that. I think they should. Yeah. Yeah. I hope they laugh at it. I haven't read Feminist Baby yet. I don't think anybody has.

How about that? No. I think they just buy it. They just buy it and hope the fucking kid comes out good. Listen, man, it's been a pleasure having you on.

I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's been great. Everybody, there is a book. It's called Woke, A Guide to Social Justice by Titania McGrath. You can get it. It's hilarious. My friend Bridget Phetasy was the first person to tell me about it.

She's great. She's great. Yeah. And she's another person who has become hilarious and famous on Twitter just from being logical and funny. Well, being honest. And being herself. But I tell you, it's so liberating when you just realize I can say what I want. Yeah, you can.

It's such a wonderful thing. You can. And many, many, many people gravitate towards it. And that's the beautiful thing. You know, I don't think it's a war. So I wouldn't say we're winning a battle. But I think there's a lot of people that get it. I think there's every reason to be optimistic. There's a lot of fucking people out there, man. That's part of the problem. And a lot of them have a battle. But I think there's a lot of people that get it. I think there's every reason to be optimistic.

There's a lot of fucking people out there, man. That's part of the problem. And a lot of them have a voice. Yeah. Yeah. The noise. I think we'll win. The noise.

Thank you, brother. I appreciate you being here, man. Thanks a lot. Let's do it again next time you're around. That'd be great. Thank you. Bye, everybody.