The Joe Rogan Experience - #1442 - Shannon O'Loughlin

Episode Date: March 17, 2020

Shannon O'Loughlin is the Executive Director and attorney for the Association on American Indian Affairs, and she is also a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.

All right, here we go. Hello, Shannon. What's happening? I'm doing well. How are you? Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. This is an incredible opportunity. I'm glad you're interested in the subject of American Indian history, and I'm glad to be here to talk about it. Yeah, I'm glad you were willing to come here. Yeah, I became fascinated when I – well, I've always been sort of peripherally interested, but never really delved into it until I read Empire of the Summer Moon. And then, you know, have you read that? S.G.

Gwen's book about the Comanches and about the Texas Rangers. And it's such a crazy story that I just became obsessed. And then I read Son of the Morning Star. And then I read Son of the Morning Star and then I read Black Elk. The Black Elk one was particularly fascinating to me because it details life before they killed Custer to living on reservations to the desperation. Before we get started, tell people who you are and what you do. So my name is Shannon O'Loughlin. I'm a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. I've been a practicing attorney since about 2001.

And I'm currently the executive director and attorney for the Association on American Indian Affairs. We're the oldest non-profit serving Indian country. We've been around since 1922. All right. And we should tell people, if you ever listen to this in the future, this is all going on right now when the United States is going through one of the craziest times ever in terms of dealing with a virus. We're on sort of on lockdown. All gyms are closed. All comedy shows are closed. All concerts are closed. Clubs, bars, everything's closed.

And some places are restricting travel. And it's interesting to me that this is all going on, and we've never had to experience this before, but it makes me think of what happened when the Europeans first came to North America and encountered the Native Americans, and they didn't have any immunity to all these diseases that the Europeans were bringing over, and in some cases wiped out as much as 90% of the people that were living here. But we're still here. Yeah, if we would have only shut the borders about 550 years ago. Yeah.

If you had a Trump, a Trump Indian back then wanting to build walls around everywhere. Oh, God. Let's not get there. Yeah, let's not. It's one of the biggest times in human history where if you talk about the Europeans coming to North America and what happened to the Native Americans just from diseases. I mean it's one of the biggest genocides in history. Now when you talk about 90 percent of a population wiped out by disease. I mean, that's almost impossible to understand. But the genocide didn't happen because of the disease. The disease did what the diseases did. But the genocide happened through colonization. The genocide happened through U.S. Indian policy

that continues today. The genocide is ongoing. So this is not something from the past. This is something that continues today that we still are working to fight against. That's why my organization is here. Right. That's absolutely true. I just was getting into the whole disease part of it, how crazy it is. No, it's fine. I want you to talk about everything you want to talk about. But so let's go to that then, since this is – the United States has a very strange situation with Native Americans where Native Americans have reservations. And on those reservations, they have sovereignty. They can – they have different rules. They can do what they want.

It's very strange. It's like there's nations inside of our nation. Like how do you feel about that? It's like there's nations inside of our nation. Like, how do you feel about that? So it's a system that's been imposed by maybe the best way to start is kind of start with the beginning. Like, how did we get to where we are today? And there's a lot of information. And so you got to stop me if I start getting too carried away. All right. No, we have lot of information.

And so you've got to stop me if I start getting too carried away, all right? No, we have plenty of time and a lot of interest, so don't worry about that. So there are three Supreme Court cases that happened in the 1800s. And there was a justice named John Marshall who was actually buying India land from the U.S. government through U.S. grants. And so he was an interested party. But he was making decisions that set forward the kind of watershed principles that continue to affect who Native Americans and Indian nation governments are today. And so those three cases, the first one was called Johnson v. McIntosh, and it was in 1823. And it didn't involve any Indians. It was

non-Indians coming to court to try to determine who owned a piece of land in Indiana. And there was one guy, Johnson, who was a plaintiff, who had purchased the land directly from the Pianca Shaw Indians who are related to the Miami tribe today. And then the defendant was McIntosh, and he purchased land from the U.S. government. And so the case, of course, was who had the proper rights. And through that case, through the narrative that John, that Justice Marshall created, he brought forward a piece of international law that affects us today, and that's the Doctrine of Discovery. Have you ever heard of the Doctrine of Discovery? of discovery. Have you ever heard of the doctrine of discovery? So that's any Christian civilized European nation has the right to conquer indigenous heathen peoples. So this was the

principle that this case was based on. And it set forward this weird relationship that tribes in the U.S. government have today. So if the U.S., if the Christian European peoples had the rights to take land away from tribes because they were an inferior race, which is – this is language from the case. They're an inferior race. They're savages. They're unable to govern themselves, and they only have a right of occupancy. So that was the first of three cases that Justice Marshall decided, and of course he was an interested party in the whole thing because he had purchased land from the United States and he wanted to make sure his land was secure. The second case was Cherokee Nation v. Georgia.

And this was the time during the Indian Removal Act that Andrew Jackson had gotten through Congress to remove the eastern Indians west of the Mississippi River into Indian Territory, which is, of course, now Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas area. which is, of course, now Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas area. And again, this was a case that actually the Cherokee Nation tried to bring before the Supreme Court. And before the Supreme Court could even make a decision on the – and I just realized I didn't even tell you the facts of the case. So there was – I'm getting ahead of myself.

I apologize. No worries. This is an incredible experience to be here, so I'm a little bit nervous. So in Cherokee Nation versus Georgia, Georgia was trying to assert its laws over the Cherokee Nation. And so the Cherokee Nation brought this case before the Supreme Court to say, you know, the state does not have any right to assert any of its laws against us. And what Justice Marshall did is said, well, you're not a foreign nation, so you can't bring a case before the Supreme Court and determine that tribes were a pseudo-sovereign nation. That they were still under tutelage and they needed to be civilized. Again, the same kind of inferior savage language in this case, and held that

the federal government had plenary power over tribal affairs and that the Cherokee Nation couldn't bring this case to court. So what ended up happening is some missionaries who were serving the Cherokee Nation couldn't bring this case to court. So what ended up happening is some missionaries who were serving the Cherokee Nation actually developed a case and violated Georgia laws so they could bring a case before the Supreme Court. And that case was called Worcester v. Georgia, and I think that was about 1832, 1831. And I think that was about 1832, 1831. And in that case, it was ruled that the United States had a guardian and ward type relationship with tribes. And so we were the wards. They were our guardian. And that set up this weird dynamic that still exists today.

The Supreme Court and other courts cite indecisions today to basically take away more and more rights. So that's the watershed basis for this weird relationship that we have. And it's based on racism. It's based on tribes being an inferior peoples. They not be civilized. And so here we are. So help direct me into another question here. The idea that the United States government is – they're like the big daddy to look over the tribes. And the only way the tribes can exist is if they exist the European way. Right. The great white father. Yeah. And so all this was happening while they were trying to conquer the West. So all this was happening around the gold rush time.

This was happening before then. So this was happening in the 1830s. The gold rush was 1850s? 1849, 1850s? So it was a little bit before that. And they're basically trying to take over land, right? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

So Georgia wanted that land for themselves. They wanted to remove the Cherokee and, of course, the other, quote unquote, civilized tribes that were in the southeast at that time. And that's what's so interesting is because you see throughout time, and this is a little bit why I have a problem with some of the books that you've read, is because they've taken small pictures of what was going on and kind of removed the context of what was really happening. or assimilate so that they could maintain their way of life, maintain their lands, and continue to prosper as they had been. But the United States was obviously a formidable opponent. And regardless of, for example, the five civilized tribes and their tactic was to assimilate, was to go to school and educate themselves and learn English. And even though they did that and they did everything that the United States wanted them to do, they were forced off their land to the West into Indian territory. The Comanche, who you've learned about through the book, those events happened during a point in time and that was their effort at resistance.

They saw how disease wiped out their brethren from other nations. They knew that folks were coming to get them. And so that was their way of resisting being assimilated and having everything taken away from them. In the defense of the authors of those books, they did cover a lot of that. These books are in no way taking the side of the United States government. You know, most of, I mean, the most amazing thing about Empire of the Summer Moon was just how special the relationship that the Comanches had to the land and about how when Jessica Ann Parker – no, Cynthia Ann Parker, who is – she's the photo out there of the woman that's breastfeeding her child. She was kidnapped when she was nine and assimilated with the Comanches and then was re-kidnapped by the United States government when she was in her 30s and didn't want to go back. She missed the Comanche life and through her and through her depictions and her descriptions of the way they lived and the understanding of it, they got a better sense of like what she missed

about that life and that they had an incredible relationship with the land. They lived basically just in teepees. They were very nomadic. They just followed around the Buffalo and they had, you know, in, in her way of looking at it, almost a magical existence in comparison to this really boring life that these settlers had. really boring life that these settlers had and when you know she looked at it it was interesting because she was a girl who was born um you know a how would you describe it a white settler

and then from the age of nine on lived as a comanche so she had like sort of a view of both worlds and you know, she very much took the side of the Comanches. And she wanted to go back. Like, she had spoken Comanche. In the book, there's an encounter where they bring in someone who was a Comanche to speak to her. And she

grabs him. She's like, take me back. We're gonna leave. Let's get out of here now. Like, her thought was like, we gotta get out of here. Like, this way of life is bullshit. Like, I want to go back to the comanches but she just didn't understand that that way of life was slowly going away and her son quana parker who is that photograph over there that's on bullets that somebody made for me i don't even know where that came from somebody sent me that but that he was the last Comanche chief. And during her lifetime and her son's lifetime was the last of it.

And it's a very sad story. But you know the Comanches still live today, right? Sure. In Oklahoma. Yes. There's quite a few of them. I've actually been in contact with some of those guys. Oh, that's awesome.

Yes. It's very cool. But they do, but they don't live the way they did, right? I mean, their way of life was removed. I mean, they were wiped out in that sense. But cultures aren't static. Right. And we're not static.

And I think one of the major issues that American Indians have is that we are often stereotyped into this picture. And if we don't fit that, then we're not legitimately Indian. When you first met me, what did you think? Do you think, well, where's her brown skin? Where's the feathers? I mean, this is... No, I did not think that. No, I don't think you did. And I guess it's a rhetorical question. Oh, hell yes. Well, are you 100% Native American? No, I don't think you did. And I guess it's a rhetorical question. Oh, hell yes. Well, are you 100 percent Native American? No, absolutely not.

What percentage are you? And that's – let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. What other – so blood quantum is an imposition from the federal government that has been used to weed out Native Americans. So the whole idea of U.S. federal policy has been to assimilate Indians, to rid themselves of the Indian problem so that land and resources could be obtained, right? And so blood quantum was one way that the U.S. government could do that. So if you didn't meet what they thought was some kind of purity test, then they could write you off, right? But that is not how many Indian nations view tribal citizenship or membership.

It's through other types of cultural continuity, family relationships. And it's not about race. That's been an imposition on us. So I'm Polish and Choctaw. So half and half? Something like that. Something like that. Something like that. Cynthia Ann Parker is probably a good example of that, right? Because she was 0% Native American but was purely Comanche.

Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Italians are very similar. I'm Italian but I have a last name that's Irish because I'm one quarter Irish. So growing up around Italians, it was always like a way they made fun of me. You know, it was like, it was always a funny thing. Like, are you sure you're Italian? You know, like this, this, it's a, you know, it's like, it's a purity test. Like Italians,

like a nice last name with a lot of vowels, you know, it's a, that's what they like. And it's really interesting. So as executive director of the Association on American Indian Affairs, we get tons of inquiries. Probably the top inquiry we get are people wanting to do DNA tests to determine what tribe they belong to. So everyone seems to want to be Indian. And even some people are emboldened enough to say, you know, hey, I did my DNA test. It says I'm Native American. Where's my Indian check? So there's so many misconceptions about what it means to be Native American.

That's a real issue? Yes. That doesn't exist, but there's some kind of fantasy or myth that many people in the U.S. kind of believe about Indians because we don't know. It's not like it's taught well in school. It's not like this is part of a normal dialogue. And can you correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that it can really clearly identify what nation you're from. No, DNA tests can't. It cannot. It can identify whether you have certain genetic traits that might be from North America, like Canada, or might be from South America as well, right? Right. Yeah. So if you really want to learn about your history and

heritage, you have to do that genealogical research. And if you weren't aware, there's 574 federally recognized tribes and about 300 other tribal groups in the United States and Alaska. On top of the 500. Yeah, that aren't recognized by the United States for many reasons. And so each one of those tribes have their own laws, they have their own systems of governance, their own – whether it's more a traditional form of government or a written constitutional government. And each one of them have their own eligibility requirements for citizenship. So you have to do your own genealogy. And then if you do find who you may be affiliated with, then you go to that nation and you talk to them about what their eligibility requirements are.

Some of them are residency. Some of them are familial relations. And some of them are blood quantum. The term Indian, is that OK to use? That's actually a legal term of art. So Indian is a defined legal term in federal law. Of art? It's a legal term of art. What does is a defined legal term in federal law. Of art? It's a legal term of art.

What does that mean? Sorry, I'm a lawyer. That just means that it's a defined federal term that has a specific definition in U.S. Code. We tend to like to be called the nation that we belong to. Who our people are. So for you, it would be Choctaw. Choctaw, right. And for others, whatever, Cherokee, what have you. A lot of people use Native American, and that's a broad term because that really can define

folks from south of the invisible border, north of the invisible border, and in the western hemisphere. So it's a much broader term. Indigenous peoples is a great, great term. Yeah. A lot of people in Canada, they use First Nation. First Nation. Yeah. And they have a very interesting relationship with First Nation people up there.

It's similar but different. They have very different rules in terms of like hunting and fishing. They basically can do whatever they want. Whereas the people that live – I have friends that live in Alberta. And First Nation people can – they don't have hunting seasons. They just do whatever they want. They basically say, look, let's just pretend like we never invaded and you just live how you would normally. But with modern equipment.

So it's it's a little odd, but there's no way getting around it being odd. One of the things that I got out of this recent obsession with American Indian culture and these stories was realizing how little I knew about the history of this country. You might have a basic understanding of what happened that you learned in school. It's real peripheral. It's very surface. And then upon reading these books, it made me realize like, what happened here? What happened here over the course of a couple hundred years is almost unprecedented in history. Like that this nation was conquered by all these invaders that just kept coming in, kept changing the rules, kept breaking treaties, making treaties, breaking treaties,

wiping people out, calling things battles when they were really just massacres of women and children. I mean, there's some horrendous, horrendous stories of the justification of these massacres that were no different than any other horrific barbarian slaughter that you might have heard about in history that's looked down upon. But for years in this country, they were taught as if they were actual battles. I mean, the history of this country with – in regards to the tribes and the American settlers and the soldiers is terrifying. It's terrifying that this just happened a couple of hundred years ago and that people are capable of these things and that the ancestors of these people are just roaming around today. And that's what this country was founded on.

This country was founded on massacres. Right. And that policy has been studied by folks like Adolf Hitler and was even included. He talked about studying how the U.S. treated American Indians in his book, Mein Kampf. Really? Yes. But it wasn't just the battles. There have been many different types of battles that we consider warfare, though it hasn't been done with, you know, guns and – Right. Legal battles. Exactly. 1800s, Europeans have been trying to educate us and assimilate us and civilize us and have passed laws once the United States became a new country in the 1800s, passed laws to take our children and move them far away and punish them if they spoke their language, punish them if they spoke their language, cut their hair, put them in these schools that were military-based. And they studied academics in the morning, and then they did trade in the afternoon.

And those trades were to help pay for the schools. So they were basically indentured servants, slave labor, making sure that the school could have enough funds to pay for their own education. And the boarding school history in the United States and Canada has horrendous, horrendous stories. And these schools were funded by the U.S. federal government. And the association and other groups are trying to get the United States to release records of who were the children in these schools. We think there were about 500 boarding schools across the United States and about at least 20,000 children that we can figure out were killed, were died in these schools. Jesus. Yeah.

So there's the Carlisle. Some of this work has been done at the Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania, which is now owned by the Army Corps, Army Corps of Engineers. And there are some tribes that are trying to repatriate their children that are in graves there and bring them back home. So this has been a process all over the country trying to figure out who these children were, where they belong, and to bring them home. And it's been a really difficult process for the organizations involved. How did so many of them die? Disease, not being fed, working too much, all those things that could kill a child. And all these things, there's records of all these different children and the places they stayed? No, we haven't been able to, folks that are doing this work have not been able to find all the records.

And like I said, the federal government probably doesn't have the records, probably has mismanaged a lot of the records regarding these boarding schools. And there were different times, there have been different eras of Indian policy where the federal government was like, oh, wait, this isn't working. Let's get out of this business of teaching Indians. Let's give it to the churches and let them do it for a while. And then it would come back into the federal government. But the churches would have it. And, of course, we've heard all of the horrible things that different churches have done to children.

And there are still many boarding school survivors today that can tell those stories of abuse, sexual and physical, and who still live with that today. There's an organization called the Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition that is really working on these kind of issues and are pulling together the stories and are also working with survivors to try to heal from that trauma that's not just theirs, but it's this intergenerational historic trauma that has been with our communities for a couple hundred years now. So there are a lot of stories like that. And this, again, this is U.S. federal policy. lot of stories like that. And this, again, this is U.S. federal policy. You know, they would, while they were, while the U.S. was building the reservation system and putting tribes kind of in these blockades, if you did not send your child to school, you weren't given rations.

If you did not send your child to school, you weren't given rations. You weren't given your food. If you practiced your culture, you could be killed for practicing your culture using your language because this was the assimilation policy of the day and this happened, I would say, 1850, 1870s through the 1920s, there was this horrific period of federal Indian policy of trying to do away with language, communal type living, cultural practices and religion. So this isn't just, you't just gun warfare. This has been a continuing policy that even affects us today. So it was gun warfare until they got the Indians to move into the reservation, and then it was basically an annihilation of the culture. Right. And it meets all the definitions of genocide from international law. One of the things that they talked about in Black Elk was the practice of the ghost dance.

This idea that they were going to somehow or another bring back the old ways. And it's a sad, sad story when you hear them talk about it, especially because it's coming from the words of Black Elk, who was a guy that was there with the Battle of Little Bighorn. And then from then, now is an older man talking about what his experiences have been like, having had seen his people move to reservations and seen basically every single treaty broken. I mean, was there a single treaty the United States had with the Indians that it didn't break? That's insane. I mean, every single one. And most treaties had some similar language. A lot of them talked about they had bad man provisions. So bad man provisions were basically if our men, the U.S., if our men come in and to your jurisdiction and do something bad, we'll take care of it for you. You know, just some simple provisions like that, but

that never was enforced. The U.S. let their people come in and take over what were supposed to be protective areas of land. And that was just constant. That happened everywhere. So there were bad man provisions. There were a lot of provisions, a lot of beautiful provisions that tribes still talk about today. As long as the grass grows and, you know, we'll have our lands. And none of these provisions were ever upheld. And a lot of the East Coast tribes, their boundaries were changed and new treaties were made and accepted, and removal happened, and then there were new treaties,

and nothing was ever maintained. Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Oklahoma? In Oklahoma, yeah. Did you grow up on a reservation? So Oklahoma is an interesting case. So Oklahoma did have set-aside land, so Choctaw had their area, Chickasaw, and the other tribes that were removed to Oklahoma. And by the way, because of that removal there, tribes that were already there were removed.

So there were already tribes there, the Caddo and Comanche and other tribes that this was already their land. and other tribes that this was already their land. So new tribes moved in and land during the – I'm forgetting my dates now, but there was a Dawes Commission around 1906 or so where there was a census and individual Indians were allotted about 160 acres apiece. And this was an effort to decrease the amount of land base that tribes held in common, right? And this happened all across the country, not just in Oklahoma, where there were allotment policies. And I believe there were about, heck, I'm not good with numbers. I think there were like 19 million acres that were removed removed this way of land. But what happened today, there is a criminal case before the Supreme Court that is actually addressing these issues because even though our lands were allotted,

the exterior boundaries of our reservations, the area that we had agreed to live in, they've never been extinguished. They've never been diminished. And so the Supreme Court is actually looking at this issue now as to whether we still have jurisdiction within the exterior boundaries of our reservations in Oklahoma. What would that extend to? Cities? Are there cities in Oklahoma that are in those areas now? Oh, yeah. So if you think of – Like Tulsa? Yeah. So that's Creek Nation.

So Tulsa would be owned? Well, so not necessarily. So it's raised a lot of fear with non-Indians about – I wonder why. Yeah. The Indians are taking back the land. Yeah. Oh, my God. But what would actually happen, there's a lot of places in Indian country where there's allotment and there's non-Indian individuals who have fee land within the exterior boundaries of reservations and then individual Indians owning fee land within the exterior boundaries of the reservation. You're saying fee land? Fee land.

So just how you would – So you pay a fee? No, no. So how you own land. It's called – it's not restricted. It's in fee. You own the title to that land, right? A lot of land held by tribes is in trust or in restricted fee.

is in trust or in restricted fee. So a common area land, like let's look at the Onondaga Nation in New York State. They have the exterior boundaries of the reservation. They own restricted fee land. So they own it, but they can't sell it without U.S. permission, right? Trust land is similar and it's treated the same as restricted fee, but it's held in trust. So the U.S. has more control of what happens on that land or has been seen to have a little more control than it would in just restricted fee. But within the exterior boundaries of the reservation, you can have this checkerboarded ownership of land of non-Indians and Indians and – but that doesn't necessarily mean

that the tribe has jurisdiction over the non-Indian fee land. And the civil and criminal jurisdiction issues on an area of land like that is extremely complex and continues to be argued in the courts. And most of the time, our jurisdiction, most of the time we lose those cases especially since the 80s and 90s and up until today we've there was really a change in kind of how the Supreme Court decided Indian law cases. So if we go back into the history of federal Indian policy, you see this kind of weird schizophrenic, you know, those Marshall cases that I talked about, they really set forward kind of schizophrenic principles that Indians are sovereign, but they're just a ward and they're uncivilized. So we have to take care of them, but they're sovereign.

And so you have different areas of time, policymakers who support tribal sovereignty but that use those cases against us and degrade policy and degrade any kind of rights that we may have gained in other eras. So it's really been, you know, Indians today live in this, live in such an insecure world. You know, our statistics are horrible. You know, the suicide rate for our youth, our high school graduates, everything that you could possibly think of that there's a statistic on, we're usually the lowest. We're the worst. And it's because we live in a society that is constantly changing. We can never depend on whether or not our rights are secured,

whether or not we're going to have land, jobs, be able to practice our culture. We're still trying to, you know, there were periods of time in our history where people would steal our religious objects and our sacred items. They still do and loot our graves. Act that was meant to repatriate those stolen items and those stolen ancestors back to tribes so that we could help with our cultural revitalization as well as put our ancestors back to rest. There are still at least 200,000 ancestors in boxes in museums. That's just in the U.S. 200,000 in museums in the U. That's just in the U.S.

200,000 in museums in the U.S.? Just in the U.S. So our ancestors and our cultural items and religious objects have also been taken all around the world. Imagine if it was French people. It was 200,000 French people in boxes in museums in the U.S. And France is one of the worst. So there was just a case recently.

French loved to auction our sacred objects for some reason. There was a sacred shield of the Pueblo of Acoma in about 2016 that was being sold at auction in France. And the tribe, the Pueblo fought and even went to court in France to try to stop that auction and get that item back because there was evidence that it had been stolen in contemporary times. And France said, you don't have standing in our courts. So even though they're considered sovereign or a pseudo-sovereign nation here in the United States, we didn't have standing in the French court and couldn't protect that item this way. So we had to use other means of negotiation and arm twisting. That item has finally been

repatriated, but it took about four years for that to happen. So it's finally been brought back. Yeah. But that's just one case. This happens- Where is it now? It's back home at the Acoma Pueblo. And do they have it on display or is it – No. This is a sacred object.

It can't be on display? Right. These are items that are used for religious purposes. They're protected sacred items. protected sacred items. And the association we were fighting with the Metropolitan Museum of Art last year and the year before because they were displaying items from a private collection that were sacred. One item was even a funerary object, was an item that is never supposed to be seen because it's buried with the ancestor. And it was on display. And without any kind of consultation with the tribes affected, it's horrendous the way

we still look at Indian people and our cultures and our practices today. We're still being called heathens. There was an article, I think just last week, there was a religious man saying that we're heathens because we, the sage that I gave you, because we burn sage as one of our medicinal and spiritual practice the reason why they were calling you heathens yeah and this was just in an article last week from a what from a Christian group oh well yeah well I'm even too we're all heathens yes um the it seems like the issue of what we were talking about with youth suicide, high school graduation, drug addiction, all those problems, those are the most massive ones. And what could be done to try to mitigate these problems?

to try to mitigate these problems like if you had a magic wand and i mean it's been i mean if you if you talk about native american reservations in this country you people talk about poverty they talk about drug addiction and alcoholism they talk about despair i mean this is something that was also brought up in the book black elk so this seems to be something that started when they were forced into reservations in the first place and then were ashamed of their heritage because of the fact they were subjugated by these – I mean whatever you want to call them, the soldiers, the military. What could be done? If you had a magic wand and you said – and I said, Shannon, what can be done to give you – you have all the money at your disposal. What would you do? Well, there's no quick fix to issues like that and people have been trying to work with tribes regarding poverty and addiction and schools.

Even if there's no quick fix? There's no quick fix. But I think what there is and what we're working to do – see, my organization is almost 100 years old. And we're looking forward to the next 100 years. What are we going to do? And there is really important work being done regarding healing from historic trauma. And it's community work. It's work that engages the entire community. So it's not just directed at young people. It's not just directed at a segment. It really involves a whole community coming together and healing. is we need to bring people like you along with us. So we need – if we can't clear away the myths that Euro-America or white America, whatever you want to call it,

if we can't clear away those myths that we continually face every day, every time I go into Washington, D.C. Damn it. Every time I go into the Wegmans, there's a big Washington football team, Tostitos potato chips with the Washington football team name on there. The Redskins. Is that an offensive word? That's an offensive word. Me even saying that, like right there, is that offensive? Yes. Yes. Not to everybody. But the majority of Native American groups, tribes, they've all let the team know that that name is offensive. And they still won't change it. They say it's honoring Native Americans. That term is used, and you see it in historic records, to count Indian skins or scalps that have been taken from Indian people.

have been taken from Indian people. It's an offensive, it's not just derogatory or demeaning, but it's... We should be really clear what you're saying, when you're saying skins and scalps, we mean dead people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and sorry. No, no worries. This is the number one reason why I wanted to have you here.

I want it from your perspective because for us, we get, oh, yeah, that's an offensive word. That's offensive. I heard that's offensive. The majority of people are not talking to someone who's deeply ingrained in Native American issues and culture like you are. So you could explain to us that you know i mean it makes sense right if we it was it was you know think about some derogatory term for someone somewhere i mean even if it was like kind of derogatory like if they were called the washington krauts and it was all based on germans like a lot of german people probably be really pissed off at that like hey you know that's kind

of shitty. Why are you calling us that? But it's the chiefs, Kansas City chiefs. What other Native American names? There's been a ton of them, right? Yeah, the Braves. There's a lot of Indians. Are the Braves still around?

Yeah. Yes. They still have that name? So has anybody given in and changed their name? Yes, there has. And there's been really a movement with high school, colleges, and I don't know the status of any, you know, as far as NFL or national teams. Syracuse, Syracuse University had a derogatory mascot that they changed some years back because of the tribes there that are now in the state of New York fought for that. What was that mascot?

I can't remember. But now they're some kind of like orange. It's an orange? All right. Super orange. Yeah. That's not hurting anybody's feelings. of like orange. It's an orange? All right. It's super orange. Yeah. That's not hurting anybody's feelings. Yeah, exactly. Orange.

Exactly. But if we're ever going to fix these issues, I think we really need to start with our public education system. We need to teach people that Indians are still here. We're still alive. that Indians are still here, we're still alive. It's amazing how many people don't even realize that Indian people exist outside of casinos. It is kind of crazy if you think about it. There's not another culture that gets teams named after them.

We have Indians all around us all the time. Just go to the grocery store and buy some butter or some baking soda. Look at different – Beef jerky. Yeah. Pop culture. Tomahawk missile. The Indian motorcycle and the Pontiac had a – I think an Indian head on its car back in the day. I think, yeah, it was an old Pontiac.

One of the Pontiacs? Yeah. It's all over our culture. It's all around us. But yet we don't even realize what that means. And so it really, to many of us, you would think it would open up a dialogue about Indian people and whether we're going to choose to do something different with this history because it is our history. It's our collective history. And we have throughout time changed the narrative and stories of our history.

You know, when we've all realized that Columbus wasn't such a great guy. That took a long time. Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you think about that? You're Italian. Crazy. It's crazy that it took so long to figure out that he was a sociopath and a murderer. I mean, when you read the accounts of the different religious people that were traveling with Columbus that wrote, I forget what they were, what their designation was, but there was one journal that detailed what they did to Native American babies, shattered their heads on rocks and cut people's arms off

if they didn't bring their weight in gold to them. I mean, horrific, horrific tales of torture and murder. And it's like, how is this the guy that we have a day off for? How is this Columbus thing? You realize, well, Columbus was a conqueror. I mean, he was just a symbol of the times. 1492 was a brutal time in human history.

And when they arrived in what I mean, they really didn't even arrive here. But when they arrived wherever they did arrive, it was the worst thing that could have ever possibly happened to the people that were already living there. And that this guy is somehow or another, you know, a part of our folklore, you know, 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and all that nonsense. And meanwhile, he's a fucking murderer. And it's kind of crazy that they knew this, but it took until now. I mean, didn't they change it to Indigenous Peoples Day? Well, there are still cities, counties, states that are still in the process of changing that. I'm not sure.

cities, counties, states that are still in the process of changing that. I'm not sure. I think there are some cities in California that have already done that and celebrate Indigenous People's Day. Columbus, Ohio is not named after Columbus though, right? Is it named after another dude? No? What's it named after?

Columbus? It is? Giant statue in front of City Hall. Change that shit. Talk to your people. It's a little late. You got a Columbus hat on, bro. It's a Cleveland hat. It's the Cleveland Indians, which makes it worse. I'm sorry. Oh, Jamie.

You piece of shit. I'm sorry. I was trying to ignore that over there. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.

I feel really welcome now. Jesus Christ. That's right. The Cleveland Indians. Another one. I forgot about the Atlanta Braves, the Washington Redskins. Right, the Cleveland Indians. Another one.

I forgot about the Atlanta Braves, the Washington Redskins. It is nuts when you stop and think about how many American teams are named after Indians. Animals and Indians. Columbus, man. Fuck you, Columbus. Change your name. What would they change it to? Name it after a lake or something. How about name it after a cool Native American?

Would that be okay? Yeah, that would be great. Who would you choose? I would consult with Native Americans before you do that. They would have to be someone from Ohio? Like what nation is in Ohio? Well, there's not any now. None?

There are indigenous peoples there, but there are no federally recognized tribes in Ohio. Wow. So who are the indigenous people that are not federally recognized? I'm not sure. But I know that there was Indiana, Ohio, that was Miami tribe. They're in Oklahoma. But there are... When you say Miami, you mean Miami the city?

No, they're a tribe of people. Okay, because you were saying that earlier, and I was going to correct you, or I was going to ask you, rather, if you meant the city. No, no, I mean the people. So Miami is, did Miami get named after Native Americans? I don't know. I don't know, but I would think so. There's a lot of place names that are named after indigenous peoples. So Miami is a type of – it's a tribe.

Yes. Yes. And they're in Oklahoma. How confusing. They're in northern Oklahoma. They probably said to Miami people, you can keep it. Crazy assholes. But what's interesting in these states like Indiana and Ohio, where indigenous peoples have just been removed wholeheartedly, is that tons of archaeologists and other people that like to loot, they have taken so many things out of the ground.

There was a case that the FBI actually got a hold of in Indiana, a gentleman by the name of Don Miller, who had a huge ranch house and farm. And it was just full of Native American artifacts, including human remains. And there were even items from other countries that he had looted and taken. And the FBI actually investigated that. And because the man was like 90 years old, they didn't prosecute him. But they were able to take back those items. And through that Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, they've been consulting with tribes to repatriate those items back. But that looting and collecting in areas like Indiana and Ohio and other places. Jamie actually has it up on the screen here.

Oh, yeah, here it is. FBI finds 2,000 human bones among antiquities seized from man's home. So where did this gentleman get all this stuff? His collection was Native American, including the bone. Tim Carpenter of the FBI told media outlets that half of it. Miller reportedly admitted he'd conducted illegal digging expeditions, but he'd never faced criminal charges before his death in 2015. So this guy was just digging stuff up and just showing it around his house.

And there were rules against this? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So if it's on land that – say if he – like what if he owns a ranch? How does that work? So it's dependent. And a lot of the things that he had, it wasn't clear where he had got it from. He didn't even know or remember or keep any records of where he got a lot of the items. So our laws are really screwy with this too. So federal and tribal lands are protected. So public lands, parks, and tribal lands are protected lands. You can't go and dig in federal or tribal lands without a permit, among other things. But just in state private lands, it's really dependent on what the state laws are. And it's really inconsistent whether looting is protected

or not. And so that's where it's interesting, because there's a lot of gigantic ranches in Texas that are privately owned that were originally Native American hunting grounds. There's ones that a friend of mine has hunted on that they have these pictographs. You go inside these caves and this is on private land. Someone owns this. You go inside these caves and there's ancient artwork all over the walls of the cave and signs of fire, like soot on the ceiling of the cave where they lit campfires. Like this should probably be some sort of a historical site. Right.

And it's usually not protected. And people get real angry when Indians try to get involved in where there may be development that will have an effect on a burial site, a sacred site, or other type of site. People really get angry. And so it's really hard for tribes to work to protect these areas, work to learn about what the areas are even about. There's been so much amateur archaeology, and this whole country was founded on amateur archaeology. Let's dig up, oh, look at what we found in this grave. Everyone was looking for gold and other special things. And oftentimes they just took whatever was in

the grave and created the antiquities art market, which still is all over the world today. So the association is constantly looking at auctions and trying to return items that private collectors have obtained improperly. We just got a human vertebra removed from a U.S. auction just a couple of weeks ago. They were selling it because they said it had an arrow point still in, you know, so that has value in some markets. And this, they had done DNA on this to prove that? No, it was, they were selling it as a Native American vertebra. It was from a collector in Massachusetts. Well, how could they prove that it wasn't just a settler that was killed by an arrow?

Right. I don't know. And that's the thing about trying to work with auctions and private collectors is they often don't want to work with us because they're trying to make money. religious objects or human remains, they have a story or what's called a provenance associated with them that is often made up to drive the price of the item. So whether that was a legitimate vertebra of a Native American, we don't know because we can't get that collector to talk to us. So the collector is under no obligation by law to talk to you? No, that's why we try to send the FBI and our friend Tim Carpenter to them. So how would they determine? I mean, wouldn't they have to do a DNA analysis of the bones and try to figure out who the person was?

Well, the DNA analysis isn't necessarily going to tell you where it came from. It could tell you that it was Native American. Would they even be able to get that out of bones? I don't know. And I'm not a scientist. But, you know, there was a case really not that long ago called the Kennewick Man case. I don't know if maybe you heard of it. But it was an ancestor was uncovered in the state of Washington. And he was old, old, old, old. And the universities involved in the Army Corps who had possession of it were going to repatriate it to appropriate tribes. And what ended up happening is that, you know, academia stepped up and said, wait, this isn't Native American.

We think he's something else. And for years, Native Americans fought to get that ancestor, the ancient one, back. And finally, after a court case that deemed the item wasn't – that the ancestor wasn't Native American, DNA test was done and it was indeed Native American and the ancestor was finally repatriated. Can I ask you how that works? Yeah. Listen, there's – you said there's 500 recognized tribes, many more that are unrecognized. Who would that go to? Right.

Like say if you won and it's brought back and given to Native Americans, to who and to where? Right. So let's look at the best case scenario. And a lot of museums have maintained records that may have human remains and associated funerary objects and have enough information to know where that came documentation that that area was likely affiliated with, you know, this tribe or that tribe or maybe several tribes. And so consultation occurs under that law about those ancestral remains and funerary objects, and it's determined where those items should go back. In the worst-case scenario, where there's not any information, oftentimes evidence of, well, who were the collectors that were giving to that institution? What has been the history of the institution and where has it obtained different collections? And through that, you know, it's deduced who may be affiliated with

those items or the ancestors. So it can be a pretty long, drawn-out process. But what's interesting about it is museums and other institutions fought this law for a long time. And they said, well, you know, all of our collections will – you know, we won't be able to fulfill our purpose as a museum or an academic institution to study these things. It's like, well, hell, you haven't studied it in 100 years. Trevor Burrus They haven't? Yeah, no. Most of these, when people work to consult with museums, most of these items are in boxes

and often poorly managed and maintained. So they're just sitting somewhere in storage. Right, right. So the museum owns it and they're kind of hoarding it? Yeah. Interesting. Right. So the museum owns it and they're kind of hoarding it. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So this Kennewick Man, can you pull up some information about that, Jim?

I'm reading a story about it right now. Yeah, great, because I'm forgetting my dates when that happened. Yeah, I'm very curious what the dates would be. Now, when we're talking about Native Americans, do you agree with the idea? Okay, let's see here. Kennewick man finally is free. Oh, they did so much study on him. Human skeleton ever found in North America.

He's a handsome fellow. Let me see that picture. Looks normal. Imagine you just ran into that guy at 7-Eleven. You're like, what's up, bro? He's like a modern American, a modern american a modern human i should say um that's the bones ferris bones oh wow his rib bones so what is does it give give us a date on his uh what they have car go to that picture the teething in that's crazy so so just let me tell you that

um looking at human remains for many tribal peoples is difficult. It's like looking at a naked body. I mean, it's the essence of someone that, you know, we shouldn't be seeing. Oh, so you shouldn't be seeing even these images? That should have been in the ground. That should have gone and disappeared. It had a journey. It got interrupted.

And, you know, some tribes and cultures believe that that's harmful to interact or look at or just a little bit humiliating. It's exposed, right? So seeing them on display in a museum is particularly offensive. Oh, God, yeah. And at least in the United States, you won't find that in any kind of public museum. Now, you might in some kind of private institution or private collection. Well, you do with mummies, right? But with Native American people, they've decided that that's offensive to the culture.

So they've removed it. Is that what you're saying? Well, that's also happening. You're finding in other countries who – in Egypt, for example, and other cultures that they're trying to get those back too. Well, imagine if there was a museum where you can go and look at Ronald Reagan's head. Right? Some people would probably enjoy that.

For sure, I'd go. But it is one of those things where it's like, okay, I kind of get it, right? So if you have the bones of Sitting Bull on display in some sort of a plexiglass case in a museum and people are like, oh, wow, that's cool. Okay, would that be cool if that was Ronald Reagan? Would that be cool if that was someone from our lifetime that died? What if they had Janis Joplin's head in a box somewhere and you can go stare at it? Wouldn't that weird you out? Yes.

Or how about Amy Winehouse? How about someone who died? Yeah, see what I'm saying? Yeah. Someone who died really recently. It'd be like, what are you doing? Maybe we need to look at it that way. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that we don't seem to look at Native people in that way. We don't seem to go, oh, that's not okay. Oh, it's not okay to outlaw their religion. How would I feel if someone did that to me, right? Right. It's double standard or I don't know what you call it, but it's just racism.

Yeah, in a way. Yeah, racism is the right word. Can you go to Kennewick Man again and find out what the date is? I'm just curious as to what the date is of his demise, like what they date his skeleton back to? Because this is something that someone actually had brought up to me, that there are many Native American cultures that don't believe the story of people coming across the Bering Land Bridge from Asia. Is that something that— That's just one story.

That's just one story. So that's just one theory about how the Western Hemisphere was populated. There are many of those stories. And what's interesting is that science, a lot of indigenous peoples have stories that go back hundreds and hundreds of years. And there's a great book. So if you really want some good books, we've got to get you into some indigenous authors, one of which is Vine Deloria, who has passed on. But he was an attorney and a scholar and wrote a book in the late 60s, early 70s called Custard Died for Your

Sins. And it's known as the Indian Manifesto, right? But he also wrote Custard Died for Your Sins, and it's known as the Indian Manifesto, right? But he also wrote – Custard Died for Your Sins. Custard Died for Your Sins, Vine Deloria. of creating these theories like the Bering Strait land bridge and never really considering – never going and asking indigenous peoples who lived on the land and whose place was the land how they got there because they do have those stories of how they got there. What is the story that most Native Americans accept? Is it the idea that they came from a bunch of different places? It's their own origin

stories. For example, the Choctaw Nation has a few origin stories. One of it, which includes coming out of the ground at a certain area in the southeast. Coming out of the ground. So being birthed out of the ground at a certain area in the southeast. Coming out of the ground. Coming out of the ground. So being birthed out of the ground in a certain area. And then there's another migration story. So a lot of – I have one elder said, okay, you want to hear an origin story. Do you want the 5,000-year version, the 20,000-year version, the 40,000-year version?

5,000-year version, the 20,000-year version, the 40,000-year version. And he would go into the story about how many people in the southwest and southeast and up into the northeast actually came from the south and were slaves of Aztec and other civilizations down south that had been released and began migrating up through the north. And there are other stories that have us come from other places by boat. I mean, there were also great canoe and waterfarers. And so I think there's a lot to unpack there that science really has ignored. And Vine Delorey is great, though, when he talks about these things in Red Earth, White Lies because he has a sense of humor about it. And he talks about, oh, yeah, here we are in Asia. Wow, there's a big sheet of ice up there.

That looks like a good place to go. Let's go. And he talks about how there's theories of trees and horses at a certain period of time that migrated back and forth among the land bridge and how that could have occurred and how sometimes it doesn't seem quite logical what science has put together there. Do you know the full story about the land bridge though, like the scientific version? The full story. Yeah. I mean it really was a country. I mean it was not just like a thin bridge.

We're trying to look at it. No, it was a big sheet of ice that may have had little areas of – where you could survive. But from what I understand about it, yeah, maybe I probably don't know it well enough. But – There's animals on it. I mean it's the way – they're changing the way they look at it on almost a daily basis. Right. But the way the theory began, it was just a very small group of scientists who made a determination that this was the way that the Western Hemisphere was populated. And what a lot of indigenous scholars contemplated was that was an easy way to basically devalue our place in the Western Hemisphere.

That we came from somewhere else. That's the resistance. The science behind it is that the oceans Hemisphere. That we came from somewhere else. That's the resistance. The science behind it is that the oceans were lower. The oceans were lower during the Ice Age. And they believe that that area between Asia and North America was not just like a land bridge, but was a land mass that was populated with animals. And that it would have been a natural progression for human beings to make their way across that.

In fact, there's a funny story. There was a guy who was a Mormon who was trying to prove that Native Americans were the lost tribe of Israel. Right. And do you know the story behind that? Oh, yes. Yeah. So he did DNA tests on Native Americans and find out that they actually came from Siberia. That's one of the scientific substantiations of the landmass theory.

But there are other migrations that are still left untested. No, I'm 100 percent convinced that people have been traveling the world. I mean, just like the Polynesians landed in Hawaii. I mean, people have done wild shit from the beginning of time. I mean, there's so many confusing artifacts and things in North America and South America, particularly the Olmecs that I believe are somewhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years old that have very African-looking faces in their carvings, or at least, you know, like very thick lips and thick faces.

I mean it's really interesting. And then they don't know where they came from. They don't know much about their culture at all. And there's many myths of people arriving places in boats and traveling around in boats. So there's – more likely to me is that just people have had wanderlust since the beginning of time. We traveled all over the world and some people came to North America and they're like, holy shit, this spot's awesome. Right.

Yeah. But we have a tendency to take a few facts that we understand from science or a few sites that we're able to find. This happens a lot in North America and then base a theory on it without really critical investigation and not getting all the facts. And so that's what indigenous peoples have been left out of. Those stories have been left out of – haven't been at the table to have those discussions about what they understand to be true about certain areas. Where my question is coming from, is it offensive because the insinuation is that Native American people aren't really American anyway?

They came from somewhere else as well, that everybody came from somewhere else? They just were here a little bit earlier, so it's not theirs? Right. Is that the idea? Right. That's one idea. But if – we've always been considered an inferior race, right? been considered an inferior race, right? And the fact that we're still left out of decision-making about our own lands and our own rights and our own sacred spaces, we're still left out of

decision-making. Or our ideas are not even considered in science. They're not considered in journalism. They're not considered in journalism. They're not considered in medicine or they're not considered... In what way? In what way are they not considered in science? There's traditional environmental knowledge that a lot of people who deal in environmental protection have utilized to help protect large areas. And it has to do with how different environments, how different flora and fauna work together as a collective versus oftentimes in our Western way of thinking, we kind of, you know, we kill all the wolves or we kill all the predators. We get rid of all these plants and animals that used to all work together symbiotically

in order to create a healthy environment. And there's really important traditional environmental knowledge by many wisdom keepers across Native America that are trying to re-implement the things that have gone wrong in their environments and trying to replace what has been screwed up. When you hear an origin story like the one where you were talking about people coming out of the earth, how do you decipher that? Well, I've actually been to that origin site. And it looks like a female. It's a place where we were birthed.

It looks like a female? It looks like a place where we were birthed out of Mother Earth. were birthed out of Mother Earth. It's a beautiful, amazing, and almost shocking place. Where is this place? This is in Mississippi. So you think that that might be true? That's our origin story, or that's one of our origin stories. Right, but you understand how scientifically that would be a real problem, right?

People coming out of the ground like poppies. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe not. I think there are stories and narratives that we're no longer connected with. And our lives today are so out of context with the natural world that we don't know what's possible anymore. We've been so separated from that. Even to imagine. Yeah, but we have a clear line from ancient hominids to modern human beings that science has been able to piece together.

That's one story. That's a story. Another story is we came out of the ground like roses. You think that's possible, though? That seems one story. That's a story. Another story is we came out of the ground like roses. You think that's possible, though? That seems highly unlikely. Like if I gave you, if you had money to bet, I'd give you a thousand bucks and you could put it on this or that. You could put it on, well, we probably, people got here by all sorts of means the way people got everywhere by all sorts of means. Or they came out of the ground like flowers.

Or Adam and Eve and all that other jazz. Well, yeah, all that other jazz as well. Put all the nuts and stuff. But these stories, whether they're our origin stories, that they create our identity, they create who we are at the center of our being. And they have lessons to teach us. And they also remind us what we're responsible for. And that's what I'm saying, that we've been so separated from that part of us and our connection to the natural world and to the earth.

Right. So we're a part of the earth. We're a part of the earth. We come from the earth. Whether or not we're actually born out of the ground is not really relevant. We're responsible for it. So we were put in certain places to be responsible and caretake for that area.

So a lot of these stories, they're essentially trying to connect people with the idea that they are a part of this great earth. They're a part of this beautiful ecosystem. And maybe this origin story is devised to sort of explain to them in a way that makes a clear connection. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But it's part of who many tribal nations are. This is our place. This is our homeland.

This is what we're responsible for. And we haven't been able to do what we were put here to do. Our purpose has been ripped away from us. is to try to work towards environmental healing and try to bring lands back into our land holding so that extract oil and do things that could be harmful for the environment. And we do what we can with what we got. And nations are sovereign. The tribes are sovereign. So they get to decide what's best for them and whether they're going to be sustainable or not. What do you think would be best case scenario for Native Americans in the United States?

Like I'll sort of give you the magic wand again. Like what would be best case scenario? Because the strange thing that we have in front of us here is that there is one country, the United States, but there's not just United States North American citizens here. There's also Native Americans of various different tribes that have their own reservations. And as you said, they're sovereign and they can kind of make their own decisions. What would be – what's the magic? How do you clear up all these problems associated with the horrific treatment, everything from alcoholism to the problems with schools to self-esteem issues,

alcoholism to the problems with schools to self-esteem issues, all these problems in North America, while also not the Native Americans, the way I'm looking at it, they want to stay a member of their tribe and they don't necessarily want to be just Americans. They want to keep their heritage, right? Universally. How does that, how do those two things work together? How do you, how do we all live together in America and yet have these tribes and do it in a way that works best for everybody? Right. Well, that's a, that's a freaking complicated ass question that you just, That's a freaking complicated-ass question that you just freaking asked.

Even with a magic wand, I'm not quite – but it's a process. And part of it is these myths that we have to correct and that we have to find a new way to be able to tell our stories and not rely on non-Indian authors to tell our stories. But you need to hear our stories from us. We need to be able to tell our stories and to reteach the general public about who Native Americans are, where we've been and where we want to go. Trevor Burrus Where do you want to go? We've had this kind of pretend fantasy world about Indians, you know, Pocahontas, Columbus stories, Custer. Chester, they've all been stories that have fed into the American politic in a certain way at certain periods of time. And what I want is that this is the time now where tribal nations have a lot to lose. And we're in a current administration that is trying to terminate us once again.

What are they doing differently than other administrations? Well, they just – they are taking land out of trust status. land out of trust status. There are groups that are attacking the basis of federal Indian law and the rights that we do have. So there's an act called the Indian Child Welfare Act. It was passed in 1978, and it's an act that the association was heavily involved in to get passed. And it started with some work with the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe. And a woman came to the people back then and said, they took my kids. They stole my children. And after investigation, it was found that it wasn't just happening at Spirit Lake, but it was happening all over Indian country where state welfare workers were taking Indian children in a disproportionate rate.

A quarter of all Indian children during that period of time were taken away from their own families and adopted out to white families. to white families. And so the Indian Child Welfare Act required state courts to do things before a child was taken away from its tribal nation. There are groups now that are working to dismantle that act. And that's being supported because they think it's racist. So it's like they've taken it and are looking through a backwards mirror. Wow. So instead of it being an act that was passed to protect our children and to make sure that children had ties to their culture and their families, they're saying that that's not in the best interest of children. So they're still looking at Indian tribes as we can't take care of our own kids,

that our way of life is not acceptable, and other adoptive families would be better. And what's interesting is that the Indian Child Welfare Act doesn't prevent non-Indian families from adopting children. It just requires a certain process to make sure that the affiliated tribal nation is involved in that placement and adoption process so that the child can maintain those connections or that they try to find a family that's more culturally appropriate for the child. So there's just been – actually it came out of the Goldwater Institute, which is a – Goldwater, when he was a, what was he, a senator? He actually voted for the Indian Child Welfare Act. But today the Goldwater Institute is actually funding cases around the nation to attack the Indian Child Welfare Act.

What is their reason behind it? I mean, what are they trying to achieve? They say it's not in the best interest of Indian children. And even though there are child welfare organizations around the country that say the Indian Child Welfare Act is actually the gold standard in child welfare and that we should be utilizing those principles that are used in the Indian Child Welfare Act to protect all children to maintain familial connections. When I'm asking you this in terms of if you had a magic wand, what do you do? The reason why I'm asking you this is because I've thought about it. I've sat down and tried to go over it myself, and I don't see a solution. What's so strange to me is that we have nations inside of our nation,

and I don't want to end it, and I don't want to continue it. Neither one makes sense to me. Like to end it would be to say you're forced to assimilate. You no longer have sovereignty. We're going to break the last treaty and disband the reservations and make everybody just be a United States citizen. That seems crazy. Well, everyone is a U.S. citizen. So citizenship was forced on us in 1924, I believe.

But I mean a U.S. citizen like I'm a U.S. citizen where I can't start my own casino and I can't just do whatever I want to do. But do you understand why that is? Oh, yes. No, I do. No, the reason why I'm saying it this way is because I'm just trying to look at it from an overhead view. Like if I was an alien and I was trying to sort this out, I had no ties to either culture, I'd be like, what do you do with that? Like, what do you do with that? was perpetrated on their race, that they were wiped out both with disease and by military

actions and soldiers and treaties were broken. I get it. But the state they're in right now, when you look at what we're talking about with these reservations, the horrific conditions and the problems with drug abuse and alcoholism and suicide and despair and self-esteem and alcoholism and suicide and and despair and self-esteem and all these issues like what is the solution what would be i mean if there was an unlimited budget like what what would you do if you were like if it's president shannon if you got elected you could win right you could be president anybody could be president i think so

right so if you won and you became the president and you ran on the part of what your platform was, was fixing this gigantic sore that we have in this country, our relationship with the tribes, what would you do? Unlimited resources. You do whatever you want. Well, I don't know if it has anything to do with the tribes. I think it has more to do with the general public. And it's about changing perspective. I think if we're properly educated about history, I think if we really understand who Native people are and their importance here and their importance to continue as sovereign tribal nations.

And it has to start with public education. We have to recreate what's important to us here. recreate what's important to us here. And I think Indian nations have been here. I think they're a symbol of amazing prosperity that the country could have, and we've just never tapped into it. And I'm talking about just principles and values that we don't seem to hold anymore in this country. Appreciation of nature and our symbiotic relationship with it. I feel like you're kind of being sarcastic. No, not at all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all.

I think that's one of the major problems we have in this country is we don't have an appreciation of nature. We really don't. And it's not just an appreciation of it. I think it's a connection to it. We can't survive without it. And we're so interrelated to everything that happens on this earth. And we don't look seven generations ahead of us to see what our decisions today are going to do to us in the future. We're constantly looking

for the dollar today and how that's going to reward our efforts today. And we're not looking what the lives of our children are going to look like, what the lives of our great-great-grandchildren are going to look like. And I think those are the kind of values that we need in our country now. And I think that's what's being debated in the Democratic campaign right now. You know, where are our values? Are we going to continue to support corporate society and corporate-sponsored everything? Or are we going to start looking at what we want 100 years from now? Well, that's certainly what's going on right now with the Democratic debates. Yeah. And it seems like corporate's winning,

even though their spokesperson could barely talk, which is hilarious. I mean, it just shows you how strong money and media and the influence of the DNC is. What would all this education do though? And explaining to people, to the American citizens that are outside the tribes, how is that going to help the tribes themselves?

What, what could be done to help these problems that we've already detailed? The problems with alcoholism, the problems with suicide and despair and self-esteem, all these horrific conditions that exist on many, many tribes. Well, part of that is not anyone's problem but ours, is not anyone's problem but ours, that we have to deal with as sovereign nations within our own communities and how we choose to fix those issues. But I think looking outside how we can really affect change is there's something called prior and informed consent, and it's contained within the UN Declaration of Indigenous Peoples. And it requires a state or a government to include tribal nations in the decision-making processes that affect them. So this administration has been horrible at it, absolutely horrible at it. The Obama administration was much better. But we need to be part, we need to be the decision

makers in the things that affect us. So if you are going to bulldoze and blow up our sacred sites to build your border wall, it seems like the proper thing to do first would be to have a conversation with us and for us to make a decision about how we may can do that a little bit better to protect those sacred sites and natural springs and other things along the border instead of just blowing up everything. Where was the situation that was happening during the Obama administration where they were trying to put a pipeline through and they were hosing people down and it was on private land and they were going through private land and people were protesting it, but they were forcing it through anyway. Where was that? That was Standing Rock up in North Dakota. And that's still going on today. In fact, I think this week, there's a hearing. Well, the Fort Laramie Treaty, I think, is affected by that. So there are some land right issues there. But we're talking about burials in sacred areas, not to mention water quality.

And the tribes – Obama stopped it, but as soon as Trump got into office, he pushed it forward and did not consult with tribes. And it's been a fight ever since. Same thing happened with – But Obama was going through it initially. Yes. And then they put a stop to it right Same thing happened with – But Obama was going through it initially. Yes. And then they put a stop to it right before he left office. Right. Right.

Right. I mean, I just – I'm so cynical. I wonder how much of that is horseshit. How much of that is, well, put a stop to it. You know, just let – you know, it's going through. Don't worry, boys. Well, you know, the Obama administration was probably one of the more favorable administrations to Indian country. There were many presidents that had never even gone to a reservation like the majority of presidents. And he did. And he did. Actually, he was adopted into the Crow Nation, I think.

So he's an adopted tribal member. That's pretty cool. Do you think he's visited since then? I don't know. But that administration really did a lot of work in Indian country that had never been done before. And they actually were looking to tribes and building a government-to-government relationship that no one had ever really done as well. Every year they would hold a big tribal consultation in D.C. where tribal leaders would come from everywhere and consult with Obama and his administration. It was really unprecedented, and it was a really happy time. And as soon as Trump got into office, the doors closed. The doors closed. Secretary for Indian Affairs, Tara Sweeney, who's Alaska native, that administration in the

Department of Interior and under the president has just been so closed. It's been hard to get anything done or to get heard or even actually have that government to government relationship anymore. We've been left out of a lot of the decision-making process that's going on all over Indian country. Well, that's a very good thing to hear about Obama that he did that. It's sad to hear that the Trump administration has abandoned that, but it's nice to do that. So what I'm getting is that there really is no long-term solution. There's no solution. You're saying that the tribes kind of have to deal with— I think there's a lot of solutions and a lot of moving parts. And I think, you know, Indian nations need to determine for themselves how best to handle the problems within their communities. requires the prior and informed consent of those tribal nations before affecting their rights or at least some diplomacy or negotiation with varying interest before decisions are made.

I think that's the heart of what needs to happen outward facing. And also we need to take a new look at our curriculum in schools. We really need to, most of our curriculum, all of our curriculum in public schools is about looking at Native American pre-1900. So, and not carrying that into today, and who contemporary Native American tribes are and what they're doing to help their people. And what's so wonderful about Indian country today is that though there are some places that are still, there are some anti-Indian hate groups out there that fight tooth and nail against anything a tribe in their area tries to do to develop economically. There are other communities where tribes have been able to bring in economic development, whether that's through gaming or otherwise. And by the way, Indian gaming

is like no other type of corporate gaming. And I think a lot of people don't understand this. So if you're a gambler, go to Indian casinos because that money goes towards Indian nation governance. It's not like a private business. from those casinos go back into Indian nation governance and are used for jobs and employment and social services. And all of that relieves the state and other government agencies from having that responsibility. So are those the success stories of modern Indian life? Those are the success stories of modern Indian life? Those are the success stories. I mean if you look at – so Oklahoma, the state of Oklahoma is fighting Indian nations in Oklahoma about gaming, trying to get more money out of gaming. But Oklahoma tribes have brought in tons of money.

A hundred thousand jobs have been created in casino and other economic development. Trevor Burrus So who's fighting it and why? And he's trying to renegotiate gaming compacts in order to bring more money into the state. So essentially trying to tax that for state purposes. Even though it's on native land. Right. Right. Interesting. So it's almost in a way another attempt at violating a treaty.

Absolutely. So denying the sovereign nation. Right. Well, in the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which was passed, there's so much federal legislation. It's insane. Federal Indian law, I mean, it has its own 25 USC, this huge code of stuff, man. USC, this huge code of stuff, man. But the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was passed because Indians were finding success doing gaming and states were getting pissed off because they were doing it without any interference, which is their inherent sovereignty to do so. That's hilarious. to do so. So this act came, which was kind of a compromise where tribes can do what's called class two gaming, which is based on bingo. And there's electronic bingo games that are kind of like slot machines. So tribes can do class two gaming without any interference with the state. But if they do Class III gaming, that's card games and other types, then the state – they have to work with the state in order to develop some kind of compact and revenue sharing for Class III gaming.

So the state – the federal government, again, allowed state to interfere with that inherent tribal sovereignty to regulate their own economic development. Yeah, that's an issue with all of these Native American casinos, isn't it? They don't get the full Vegas treatment. They can't have all the games that Vegas can have. They can. That's the class three gaming. But they have to do it through the state versus through their sovereign government.

It's so strange, right? It's like under one hand, they get no help at all. And then when something comes along that allows them to economically thrive, then the government is like, hold on. Where's our peace? So why do you think this is? Because they can. And so much of legislation looks at tribes as if they're inferior. So back again to those watershed cases of Justice Marshall.

Yeah. They're inferior. Even being able to assert jurisdiction over non-Indians who come into our territory and do something wrong. We can't. Right. So if someone breaks the law in a Native American reservation, they're under the federal government's guidelines or the state government's laws. The tribe does not have criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians. So if someone comes in and robs a casino, then the state has to take care of it.

Right. State or the federal government, depending on what type of crime. Ideally, would it be that the Native Americans would take care of it? Yeah. Why not? Yeah. It'd be funny if they brought back like hanging capital punishment. Let's just hang people in the streets.

See how that works. Look, no more robberies. Do you think that's what we did? No. Back in the day? No, no. I'm just saying. Imagine if they just came up with their own rules arbitrarily, completely outside of the state's laws and the federal government's laws.

I don't think that's what they did. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying wouldn't it be crazy if they just went like, let's pretend this is our own country. We do whatever we want. We're going to hang people. I don't think it's a good idea. I'm just saying it would be pretty nuts. i don't think it's a good idea i'm just saying it would be pretty pretty nuts i i don't think it is strange that there's this um there's this uh push and pull here right there's they're sovereign they can do what they want they have these casinos but hold on

hold on hold on with this doing what you want now you're under the guidelines of the federal government and the state government and now we want a piece. We want a little bit of this and regulations and this and that. It is, it's essentially not accepting the fact that they're sovereign. It's a fake acceptance. It's like, hey, you're on your own until you start doing really well. And then it's like, hold on there. Now you're not on your own. Yeah, it's this really weird triangle of power, state, federal and tribal jurisdiction. And it's completely confusing. When I was a student, I was a fellow with a program called Udall Fellowship that was named after Stuart Udall. Who was he?

He was a very strong environmentalist who did a lot of work to protect Indian lands and the environment. And so in his name, there was a fellowship created and it's funded through congressional appropriations every year. And so now you're making me forget my story here. I'm sorry. So when I was an intern back in the day, and I was in the Clinton White House, that's a whole another story. I completely lost my story. I'm sorry.

No worries. I need more turmeric coffee. We can build it back. So what we were talking about was the federal government not allowing the Native Americans to have real sovereignty over their land. And then we went from there to you having a story that I interrupted by trying to ask what that guy's name was. Damn. Or what he did. What was his name again?

Stuart Udall. And what did he do again? He was a senator, a congressman, and he did a lot of good things for Indians. But that's it? Yeah. I don't remember. It's gone. It's gone.

It's forever gone. No worries. Sucked into my brain somewhere. So what – when you look at that situation, the casino situation where now all of a sudden economically these tribes can thrive and the reservation that owns that casino can thrive. And as you're saying, the money goes straight back to the reservation and to the people that run it, and it legitimately helps the people that live on that reservation, correct? Absolutely.

What other things like that can be done to also take advantage of the fact that they're a sovereign nation and allow them to economically thrive without things like fracking and shit that's bad for the environment? Are there other things that are being implemented that could also help? Oh yeah, absolutely.

There are all different types of economic development going on in Indian country that can be very successful for external businesses too because there are certain benefits that an outside business would get if they did, for example, manufacturing within Indian country. they could benefit from certain tax exemptions and rebates that they wouldn't get in a state. So if corporations would go into Indian country instead of going across the border or going somewhere else, going across the border or going somewhere else, there would be great opportunities. And some tribes are taking advantage of those business opportunities, not just gaming. But out of gaming has grown a lot of investment, a lot of the money has gone back to help educate and teach language and bring items back that are religious items and ancestors and the things that are important for that tribal nations look at. And it's not necessarily economic, but it's about healing their people and helping us survive and live better than we have in the past. So investment takes many forms in Indian country. Are there any good documentaries that can educate people on the reality of what happened to the Native American tribes? Because it seems like it's one of the best ways for people

to absorb information and get people excited about things because it kind of entertains them as well as educates them. Is there anything that you can recommend? So much has been produced. I think PBS has put on some really good – I mean if you look at PBS, even now there are some great stories that are being told. Yeah, no. No. It seems like something that someone should do. Right. But it's got to be done in Indian country and it's got to be done with Indian country because so much has been done without us. Yes.

And without our even input. Right. without our even input. So much research and kind of one-sided storytelling that just doesn't make sense. It doesn't have the cultural competency. It doesn't have the real-life lived experience and the flavor, I guess, for lack of a better word, to tell these stories properly. Ideally, when you look at the future of Native American tribes in the United States,

and again, as you said, Native Americans that are in these reservations are United States citizens. But it's such an unusual situation that really we only have a comparison to Canada with their First Nations. What do you think happens in the future? When you go from 1900, you were talking about the past of 1900 to today, it's an abysmal 120 years other than the economic success of the casinos. What do you anticipate happening in the next 100 years? It's hard to tell. I know a lot of tribes have been diversifying their economic development.

Without our cultures, we won't survive. In fact, many elders, and you may have read it in Black Elk Speaks, that we're no longer who we are without our culture, without our languages, and likely we'll no longer be recognized by the federal government unless we are Indian enough. You know, so those things are really important to who we are in the next hundred years. And I think it's those things that we will be rebuilding over the next hundred years, healing from the last and moving forward with a newfound understanding of who we are and a stronger identity and self. What that actually looks like and what's important,

actually looks like and what's important, I think that we are still so dependent on the great white father and what happens with U.S. politics and whether we have a voice there or not. We've got great organizations that help advocate for Indian country in general. There's the National Congress of American Indians, which has been around for about 75 years, and it helps lobby and educate Congress and keeps tribes informed about what's going on in politics and advocate for many of those interests. There are groups like ours that are advocating for more cultural revitalization and strengthening identity and protecting our youth. So I think part of what we've been building is really a coalition of organizations and tribes to strengthen who we are and kind of correct the misfortunes of our history. We still have tribal nations out there that are living with egregious poverty and issues that still seem so far away from being corrected.

But, you know, like my grandma always said, where there's hope, where there's life, there's hope. So I think we just continue to – I mean we've freaking survived for this long and this coronavirus isn't going to take us out either. I mean we're going to continue to push forward and try to have a better future for our kids we're not on the stage with everyone else. We're not at the table where decisions are being – we're not in the room where it happens. That Native Americans are not being treated with the same respect as other people from other countries. So like the culture of Mexico or the culture of Guatemala or name a country, Japan. They're not being treated well. But we respect them as a culture. Like they're thought of as – I mean we're not invading Mexico.

Do you know what I'm saying? I mean whether or not you agree with walls and border walls. We're not looking at them as something – we're looking at them as another country we don't look at Native Americans the same way we look at any maybe it's because you are also United States citizens they we don't look at them the same way we have the same like the respect for people that live in a sovereign nation another sovereign nation even though this is a sovereign nation inside of our nation, it doesn't, I think you would agree, doesn't get the same respect that other sovereign nations do. Oh, absolutely. Is there a great record, like a written record of all of the origin stories like you were talking to me about

and all of the various languages? I mean, is all this documented to make sure that we don't lose this? Some better than others, and a lot of that is done. There's no big text that I can give you and share with you that here's all what you ever needed to know about Indians. That doesn't exist. I think – Probably should, huh?

No. No? I think that's up to the tribal nation to decide whether they want to share that and how to best educate people about who they are. And that's what so many other people have told our stories and have taken down those histories. And all those people are telling the stories from a Western perspective and not from not having the cultural competency and having lived and implemented that way of life. So it's really dependent on the tribes to determine for themselves how they want to put that forward.

There are many tribes that actually have research protocols. If you want to study, you want to research, you have to get authority from the tribal nation to do that. You have to get authority from the tribal nation to do that. And they have to have a say in whether it was done appropriately. So, again, it's back to us telling our own stories, us being part of our own narratives, us being part of the decision making that affects us. I respect and appreciate that 100%. What I meant was inside the tribe, is there a documented version of all these stories and of the language so that can be passed down?

The real concern seems to be when you're talking about these incredibly impoverished communities, the real concern is that some of these stories may be lost or some of the language may even be lost. I think it varies. Like I said, there's 574 federally recognized tribes and 300 other tribal groups. 300 other tribal groups. Let me tell you the story about the Chitimacha, who are in Louisiana, like just surrounded by marshes right there in the Gulf of Mexico. Their last language speaker died in the 1940s. And even though they had, you know, language speakers around them, none of those languages were related to theirs. Their language was more closely connected with peoples in Mesoamerica.

So obviously there was a trade, there was a relationship between who the Chitimacha are and were with people from Meso and South America. Yeah. I mean there's amazing histories and stories out there. But what happened with their language is in the 80s and 90s, the Smithsonian had all these wax cylinders of tribal languages and songs and dances. And they started repatriating those back to different tribal nations. So when the Chittimacha got these wax cylinders, they're like, oh, we have a responsibility here.

We have to do something with this. And so they pulled their community together. And everyone got their grandmas and their aunties and everyone to pull together words that they knew, stories that they knew, different cultural practices and building and crafting and all of those things. Pulled all that together with the wax cylinders. They got some money from Rosetta Stone and recreated their language that had been lost. And today in their schools, in their tribally run schools, they speak their language. Those children are speaking their language from kindergarten up. So an incredible success story.

And they were able to do that because they had gaming revenue to help support that. And when you go to the school and when you hear the story about how that happened, it's incredible. So there are stories like that among all tribes of how they've been able to recover from what was lost. And so it's a long process to correct what has happened. But there are warriors all over Indian country, and that's what they're doing every day is trying to recover what was lost. Well, that's a great success story, and it's beautiful to hear. I just hope that that can continue with all the different stories. Right.

It's just when you read books about Native American culture and you just get sort of like the most surface taste of what it must have been like, it seems like there's this incredibly rich history that could be lost in time. And that would be a horrible, horrible shame. It's right here in front of us. And it's here right now. And the fact that someone like you worked so hard to get this message out here and to

let people know what is actually happening and the plight of these American Indians and the tribes and what they're still going through today. This is not a battle that happened in the 1800s. This is a battle that's happening today. Right. Every day. Every day. Yeah.

What is currently a major focus for you? Well, the repatriation and sacred sites issues, so returning cultural items and ancestors back to their affiliated tribes. And is there a lot of that out there? Oh. So, like I said, there's that law, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, that requires any institution that received federal funding or federal agencies to work towards a repatriation of items that they've received over time back to their tribes. But there are also tons of ancestors and items in international museums.

So we're working on developing strategies to go after those because a lot of those countries, there has been kind of a rethinking about the purpose of museums and public education regarding indigenous peoples and how do we decolonize these institutions. And so we're trying to work – and some countries are easier than others because if you have sacred religious items from American indigenous societies in some museums across the waters, their country considers it their cultural property. So you need an act of their country's government in order to deaccession those items and return them home. So there are some countries that are much more difficult to work with than others, but we're in the process of developing strategy to help with international repatriation. We're also trying to watch private collectors and educate people about the importance of returning cultural patrimony and other sacred items that they've received over time, whether or not there's a legal obligation to do, there's definitely an ethical and moral obligation to

return these items so that cultures can be revitalized and that those items can be put back to use. So that's one area. We have a repatriation conference every year that we work together with tribes and institutions and foreign governments to work on these issues. Sacred Sites, I just was before the Indigenous Peoples Subcommittee in the House a few weeks ago talking about what's going on at the border. And the Tohono O'odham chairman was there as well to talk about those issues. And as he spoke, he was telling the congress representatives that he just found out that they were blowing up another section. It's – and that is happening because there was a law in 2005 that allowed Department of Homeland Security to waive all these environmental laws and if there was an emergency to do so. And so the administration is saying that the border wall is an emergency that allows them to waive all these environmental laws. allows them to waive all these environmental laws. And so it's not just about protecting sacred sites, but all the other environmental concerns, all the animal migrations, birds, plants, and water quality that are being affected

by this border wall because people strongly think we need a 30-foot, you know, tall border. So we're working – we continue to work to protect sacred sites. So along the border where they're doing this and putting in the wall, many of these areas have been designated as sacred sites? And so is that what you're saying? Yeah, our known sacred sites. And there's artifacts there and all sorts of different things that could be destroyed by the constructionists?

They blew up an area and found human remains. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Now, do they stop when they do that? They repatriated those bones and they kept going. Yeah. So this is how... That's it? That's it. That's it. They're just moving forward. They don't identify the bones and then look for the rest of the culture that might have existed there and identify it? during that hearing, it was clearly about how do we protect sacred sites and how do we make sure that tribal consultation and other options can be presented so that environment and other areas are protected. And the Republican congressman that was there, who was really quite – seems like not a nice guy, basically said there is more damage caused by migrant traffic, trash and defecating than there is by blowing up the ground. And so that is the Department of the Interior, Homeland Security, and Republicans in Congress are saying about that border wall. Just stop and think about how that's unchallenged.

Yeah. How ridiculous a thing that is to say. You could pick up trash. You could pick up shit. You can't pick up once you blow up sacred sites and bones. It's forever. And it's irreplaceable. These are irreplaceable resources.

But the fact that nobody challenged him on that, like that's such a ridiculous thing to say. Oh, we challenged them. And Deb Haaland, who is a Native American congresswoman, definitely challenged him about that. But, you know, it's, I think the law is on their side. Is it safe to say that there's many areas that you're talking about along the border that are probably undiscovered because you're dealing with things that are

potentially thousands of years old? So remember, undiscovered has different meanings. So tribes may have understandings about certain areas that other people do not, that they try to protect. And so that's why consultation is so important and working with tribes so you can understand what's going on on the ground. some kind of minor investigation, and supposedly that was done, that is being done, but nothing's being done to protect it. So it's known, but— So even if they consult with the tribes and the tribes say, this area is essentially a burial ground from 1,000 years ago and our ancestors used this, they're like, oh, that's a cool story.

We're going to put a wall here. Yeah, but that happens. That's not just happening at the border. That's happening all over the United States. Yeah. Yeah. And that's nothing new. What's new here is that all of those environmental laws and those opportunities for public comment, so it's not just tribal consultation, but even public comment, have been completely waived.

Those stories always weird me out when someone's building an apartment building and they stop construction because they found some sort of a burial site underneath it. And you're like, what? Right. Like, how many of those are out there? I mean, how many areas where people are digging into the ground, they are going to find some incredible archaeological discovery. And it's getting smashed by a bulldozer. Yeah, it happens all the time.

And so a lot of the context for what was happening here before Europeans came is gone because we've just destroyed all the evidence of it. You know, so that's why often the way archaeological investigations have moved forward is they look at discrete sites without connecting the dots in a more holistic way about what's happened in a certain area. So most of our archaeological context and all that evidence is gone, and it continues to be eluded by amateur archaeologists. And of course, you know, I've worked on many different developments across the country where, you know, the bulldozers come. Oh, they see there's human remains there and they just dump it into the fill. Really?

Yeah. Because they don't want to stop. Because it's inconvenient to report. Yeah. It costs money to stop. Yeah. It costs a shitload of money. Yeah.

All right. It's amazing to me that there's some sites that you could just visit, like Buffalo Jumps, where they ran buffaloes off the cliff. Like a friend of mine was telling me about this site that you could go to. And I'm like, you could just go there? And he's like, yeah, you find Indian points there. I'm like, really? You find arrow points. So you find laying around what should be these priceless archaeological record of Native Americans,

and you can just pick them up? Yeah, just go to any little town across the country, and you'll see a little antique shop somewhere, and you go look on their walls, and there's going to be archaeological evidence there without any context, without any understanding of where it came from, whether it's pieces of funerary object, arrowheads, or what have you. The arrowhead one is unbelievably common. Oh, yeah.

I found one. I found one in Nevada. I was on a hunt, and we were in the mountains, and I found this little tiny chip. You weren't on federal land, were you? I don't know what land we're on. It's public land. It was a public land hunt. You had to draw a tag for it.

But we found this little, and it was crazy to look at. I'm looking at this little tiny piece. It was like a white, I don't know what type of rock it was made out of, but it was stunning. To hold that and to think, this was someone's weapon that they were using to hunt with. Who knows how long ago? Who knows how many hundreds of years ago and i just stumbled upon it and i think that's why we're so fascinated americans are so fascinated with indians is because um they're all around us i mean um uh you know we're

standing um and that's one thing i forgot to do when we started this interview is to recognize the land where we're standing now, which is original land of the Chumash and Tongva people. Right here. Who are still here today. Yes, right here. Yes. Yes. These are indigenous lands. Everywhere where we stand are indigenous lands.

And what's interesting is that we don't recognize that here. There are other countries, like, for example, in Australia, they have any kind of public event or governmental gathering or whatever, and they recognize who were there before them. You know, there's an acknowledgement, there's a recognition. We've forgotten all that history. We've forgotten what was here before, even though the people are down the street. The Chumash is north of here. The Tongva are south. Those people still exist.

Do they have a reservation out here? So Tongva are not federally recognized. So they're one of the 300 that are not? Right, right. And in California, I think there's 104 federally recognized tribes in California. Wow. California history and you're aware of the mission system, right, in California? The mission system mean religious missions? Yeah, the Spanish missions that were built up the coast in California and the effect that those missions had on the indigenous peoples that were here.

I know about the effort to convert them to Catholicism. Right, right. That was a huge issue at the turn of the 20th century, right? Right. And there are mass grave sites at every one of those missions of indigenous peoples. You know, thousands of indigenous peoples died building those missions and from disease and otherwise. I mean, think about it. There are some teachers and professors that do different kind of work with their students, and there's this one kind of exercise of giving everyone in the class a role that you have in your society, you know, so whether you're, you know, tending

agriculture, or you're making clothes, or you're protecting the children, or you're getting food or whatever it is. And then 96% of you are gone. What do you do? I i mean can you i i can't imagine what so many of our our ancestors must have lived through and and i know uh for myself personally um what's driven me in my life is my grandmother telling me those stories of what she and her family had to go through to be here and saying, we did that. We went through all that so you could be here and you could do something better for us. I mean, that's what drives us all is the pain that our ancestors went through in trying to make a life for ourselves that are better. Hey, we want a piece of that manifest destiny too, and we want it back, right? So these issues, we should take you to Indian

country sometime. I would love that. I would love that. Where should I go? Oh, heck, where do you want to go? I want to go wherever you tell me to go. So I think it would be important if you or anyone else would be interested. You know, most tribal nations have websites where you can learn about who they are, what their history is, and different policies and things that are important to them. and different policies and things that are important to them. I think it would be important to go to a more affluent tribe and also to go to a tribe that maybe doesn't have that same level of economic development. And you can find that anywhere. You can find that here in California, in Nevada, in Washington State, in New York.

There are many places we could go. You tell me and I'll tell you where you can go. Well, let's work something out. I would really like to do that. I have my friend Cam Haynes went to an Apache reservation in Arizona, I believe, last year. And he said that there's actually a cave that they wind up putting bars on to keep people from stealing the artifacts. But there's arrows in there and human remains. Yeah.

And they've left them in there. I mean, just something like that is unbelievably fascinating that this exists. And it just exists on this reservation just sitting there there and that most people are not even aware of. This is like an unbelievably sacred part of history that's right there. Right, right. And those places are constantly being looted. There was a time in American history, 50s, 60s, 70s, where you could get these beautiful cross-country maps, right? And many of those maps would have places where there were Indian artifacts and places that you could go and look for stuff and get stuff.

So a lot of things like that have been published throughout time. And so folks that are interested in doing that and make their living doing that, you know, they rely on those old documents and stories of where things are and are still looting and selling those items today. have this idea that if something is historic, we should be able to look at it, you know, that we should be able to go to a place, the Smithsonian or the, this or the, that, or,

and, and go see it. Um, I think what you're saying is we have to kind of relook at that and that it's not ours to look at and that this is a part of the tribes and the part of your culture. And this is not something you the tribes and the part of your culture and this is not something you could just gawk at even i mean i never even thought about looking at bones that looking at bones would be uh disrespectful until i thought about like amy winehouse's head sitting

there at a museum and i'm like yeah that'd be kind of fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that is a it's a it requires a shift in perspective. Right. And I think that's all tribal nations are asking people to do is to think differently about these issues and and recreate a new and more appropriate myth about our collective history. And let us decide for ourselves what we want to share and what we don't want to share. And I think what you'll find is, is that Indian nations have shared a lot. So this work on Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, where those museums thought they were going to lose all their collections and their shelves would be cleaned out and no exhibits anymore. What they found instead was that they actually figured out what the hell they've been holding on to this whole time. Because now they're actually

talking to the people who have experience, expertise, and cultural knowledge about these items that are in their collections. So all of a sudden, information that they never had before. between museums and those institutions and tribal nations has built something completely different than nobody had contemplated before, just from talking to Native people and understanding what those things are and where they come from and what should be shared and what shouldn't be. There's still a lot of museums holding out, and usually those are the big well-funded institutions. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What's their argument? Jennifer Lawless, Jr.: They don't have an argument. What's interesting is I wrote

somewhere once that we're just waiting for a lot of old white people to die. I mean that's really the case that there is just this old perspective, this old philosophy, this hoarding philosophy, not wanting to give things back. Is there also in their defense, could it be that they're really concerned that that stuff would be lost and that it is important historical. Right. And so the mission of many museums is to educate the public. And there is this kind of arrogant, what I would consider an arrogant way of thinking about the world, like everyone should have access to knowledge and tribes don't necessarily feel that same way. So there is that kind of that philosophy. And so those institutions will often use the law to work against the repatriation situation and delay, mostly delay. Most tribes don't want to fight against institutions like that because, for one thing,

they don't have the capacity to fight that because there are so many things on their table already. And another reason, to bring that kind of discord around these sacred items or around ancestral remains is difficult. So you don't want to bring, you know, bad energy around something that you need to care for and respect and put back in the ground. So, you know, there's a lot of reasons why these bigger institutions are getting away with not following the law. And they take advantage of it. And so that's why my organization is important because we try to help bridge that. is important because we try to help bridge that. It seems like some sort of cooperative effort could be reached where the things that the tribes would like people to see and would like to educate people on could be displayed

in maybe some sort of a national museum of Native American history. Really? That is an awesome idea. So there's this – Is there a thing that exists? It's called the National Museum of the American Indian. Where is it? In Washington, D.C.

Is it huge? It's also – yes. It's also in – and it's got a pretty – I'm the best at coming up with ideas that I've already used. It's got a pretty screwed up story, though, of how the National Museum of the American Indian got started. But I also want to mention, before I forget, there's wonderful tribal museums. So there are tribes out there that have their own museum and archives. Can you give us some examples of where people can visit?

Sure. Tulalip in Washington. Washington State? Washington State. And where is that at? That is Tulalip. It's outside of Seattle. Okay. Hibolb Cultural Center. Saginaw Chippewa Tribe in Michigan.

I hope I always get my M states wrong. In Michigan, they have the Zibuwing Center of Anishinaabe Lifeways and Cultures. Amazing museum. I think they're one of my favorite. Choctaw Nation, my nation in Oklahoma, are building a new cultural center and museum. So those are all- And where's that going to be? That's outside of Durant.

Is there a timeline on that when they believe that's going to be done? Very soon. Very soon. Very soon. I'm in Oklahoma in a couple months. Supposedly. Well, yeah, if you can travel. Supposedly the world doesn't end. Yeah, I'll tell you exactly when I'm supposed to be there.

I'm doing gigs in Oklahoma. I'm supposed to be there, I think, sometime in July. Do you know where in Oklahoma? I'll tell you when I know. All right. You know where I'm at? September. September? See, I don't even know. All right. You know where I'm at? September. September?

See, I don't even know what month it is. September 12th. Okay. Tulsa. Right. Yeah. September 11th, I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska, and then September 12th, I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah.

So Tulsa's up north. I know Choctaw, that's southeastern Oklahoma, so it's a bit away. What is the name of that place? The Bach Center? Is that what it is? In Tulsa? Well, do you think it will be done by then? Oh, yeah.

If not, the Chickasaw Nation has an amazing cultural center. So that's in Sulphur, Oklahoma, I believe. They've got a great museum there, and really, that's a great nation to talk to. I often consider defecting to be Chickasaw. Really? Can you do that? I'd have to be adopted in, I think. The Chickasaw are kind of like our little brothers,

but they have... See, our nations were heavily affected by Christianity. And so the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma is very proud of the fact that it's been able to maintain its languages through Christian hymnals and singing Christian music. singing Christian music. So my nation really is Christian. But there are many other nations in Oklahoma that I've spent more time with than my own, and that's Chickasaw and Creek and Seminole nations that are also in Oklahoma that still maintain their stomp dances and other traditional pagan rituals. So I tend to... Favor those.

Yes. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. It really is an amazing story and a sad story, but a fantastic story as well. The story of the Native American culture and life in this country and what it's become. And I don't think it's told enough. I mean, I think I barely scratched the surface of it. You did. I mean, I could keep you here all day. I'm sure.

And it's been a very interesting dialogue because part of this is trying to figure out what is it that you want to know and you think that your listeners want to know about this. Because the last thing I want to do is to offend your listeners because I really want everyone to come away with learning about Native American history and what's going on in Indian country not offended and not with any kind of distaste because I think this is our we're going to change things is if we change the general public and how the general public sees Indian country. Well, I don't think you have to worry at all about offending. I don't think you offended anybody. I've been being nice. Well, listen, my ancestors –

Bring me back and I'll be offensive. I would love you to. My ancestors are – I'm third generation, so my ancestors have nothing to do with any of this. We came over from Europe and we don't know anything. We're like, what the fuck was going on here before we got here? You know, my ancestors are all Italian and Irish for the most part. And they had to give up a lot of their culture when they came into this country. Most of it, yeah.

Yeah. their culture yes when they came into this most of it yeah yeah yeah it's um i remember talking it's it's interesting too because so much has changed um i remember when i was a boy talking to my grandfather my grandfather would talk to me about what it was like to immigrate here from italy and how horribly they were treated and the racism against italians was just so prevalent and common and and horrific the things that he would tell me were terrible. And I've never experienced racism against Italians. It doesn't exist anymore. And in just the three generations between my grandparents, my parents, and me, it's gone.

It's essentially just being an Italian in this country. I mean, there's some people that have prejudice about all sorts of different cultures, but that's just rare. That's weird. You know, whereas Mexican prejudice is super common. that have prejudice about all sorts of different cultures. But that's just rare. That's weird. Right. You know? Whereas Mexican prejudice is super common. Right?

Prejudice against Mexicans dealing with all this wall bullshit and what's going on between. And those are indigenous peoples. Sure. Yeah. Well, not only that, they owned fucking California up until the 1800s. Right? I mean, that's part of Sun in the Morning Star. Part of that book is talking about Mexicans and U.S. troops fighting over California.

That's a big part of it. Does that ignore Native Americans? No. I mean, it kind of does. But, I mean, look, in some ways, Mexicans are Native Americans, right? The Mexicans that were here. They are. They're absolutely.

Yes, they absolutely are. Yeah. Yeah. So, and not only that, I'm sure they share a lot of DNA. I mean, there's a lot of Mexicans that I'm friends with that look like they could be, you know, complete Native American. Where do you think? Yeah. 100%.

Yes. Where do you think? Sure. Well, that's why they speak Spanish, right? American. Where do you think? Yeah. 100%. Yes. Where do you think? Sure. Well, that's why they speak Spanish, right? Spaniards came and met with Mexicans, the original Mexicans, and introduced their language.

Well, they weren't Mexicans. Exactly. They were indigenous peoples. Right. Exactly. And just like what Spain did to everyone. Yes. They sent their – they actually trained dogs to rip people apart.

I mean, maybe I'm getting off the subject now, but, you know, Catholicism came over here, and they had this thing called a papal bull. And it was basically the Catholic law. And so these Spaniards would hammer the papal bull into a tree and speak in Spanish to the indigenous world saying, if you don't convert, we will slaughter you. Right? That's what you're a heathen. You must convert or, you know, we're going to kill you. And of course, nobody knew what the hell they were saying, because they didn't speak Spanish. And they would sick these dogs on them. I mean, there's these horrendous stories that are told by the missionaries that were there with the Spanish, you know, to bring their salvation.

And it's just horrendous, some of the accounts of this. And that's just... And recent. That's what's really spooky. Well, that was 1500s. But that's not that long ago. No, it's not. It seems like it is.

It's five lifetimes. Five human beings living to 100. Five lives ago, people were doing that. But we still carry this with us. I mean, these stories are still a part of the narrative that we told. And I guess we're still telling it because people haven't listened or they're still – these stories haven't been taught. Yeah. They haven't been taught.

haven't been taught. Yeah. It's, they haven't been taught. There's almost too much to teach and it's very convenient since, you know,

we, air quotes, are the victors. So we kind of can rewrite history or at least make that part of history not important.

You know, I had a bit that I did in my act about presidents, about electing presidents and I was like, you just got to realize the United States was founded in 1776 and that people live to be 100. And that's three people ago.

Like we literally just got here. We just got here. And now in the course of three people's lives, we have skyscrapers and planes and pollution and we're sucking all the fish out of the ocean. And we've wiped out most of the history of the indigenous people and it's it's it's crazy i mean it really is a a very strange fact that is so often overlooked if on a day-to-day basis how often do we discuss native american history how often do we discuss the the the battles that, the lives that were lost, the people that died from disease, the Trail of Tears? How often is that discussed in this country?

I think there's five or six million of us that talk about it every day. But that's indigenous people. And thank God you do. Yeah. So we're keeping that alive. And like I said, there's a lot of – there's not many of us comparatively, but we're out there and we're all doing double time to work to push this out into the public narrative. And it's been really, really hard. Well, I really appreciate your efforts, and I really appreciate you humoring me and coming here and teaching us and educating me about how you feel about things and the stories that you came here to tell. And I think what you're doing is very, very important. I'm very happy that you're out there.

I'm happy that you took the time in this calamity and chaos and pandemic to risk your health and come and make this trip. Yeah, I'm going to be isolated when I get home. My family's putting me in the basement for two weeks. Jamie doesn't have the cooties. He told me he's fine. I'm clean as a whistle, so you're good. I eat healthy. Is there anything else we could talk about before you leave?

We can talk about tons of stuff, but I think what I need to tell you is that the Association on American Indian Affairs has been around for a long time. And we are rebuilding our capacity to look into the next hundred years of how we want to move forward. I would love to have input from your listeners about what they think they need or what their questions are about Indian country. Don't give out an email. No, I'm not. It'll be flooded with horrible pictures. We have a website. Oh, God.

Yeah, only good, enlightened people can reach out. Well, that's a wonderful theory. There's so much we can do together and people who are interested in getting to know more about what's going on in Indian country or getting involved in helping out. What's help label where they can go? Indian-affairs.org. Indian-affairs.org. Okay. We will send people to there.

And thank you so much, Shannon. Thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it. Bye, everybody. Stay safe or not. Or stay happy. Do what you got to there. And thank you so much, Shannon. Thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it. Bye, everybody. Stay safe or not or stay happy. Do what you gotta do.