The Joe Rogan Experience - #1474 - Dr. Rhonda Patrick

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

Dr. Rhonda Patrick is a Ph.D. in biomedical science and expert on nutritional health. Her podcasts and other videos can be found at FoundMyFitness.com

what were you saying? Damn you. You suck. No. It's not that embarrassing. You just go ahead. Like sometimes

when I get nervous my eye will start watering. Like I don't think that's odd. I think that's probably pretty normal. I mean your system's fired up and

you know your eyes are probably trying to clear themselves. Right? Maybe you know I mean I'm just speculating. Maybe people will message me after this podcast and be like, that happens to me too. And I'll

feel better. I'm sure it doesn't sound that odd. That's not certainly not embarrassing. So I don't know why I'm embarrassed by eyes watering if you're nervous. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. I am super always happy to come. Well, we've been talking and we've been talking about immune systems. And this is one of the main things that I wanted to talk to you about. Like, what are the strictest? All we're hearing is shelter in place, wear a mask, don't touch anybody, don't go outside. But we're not hearing what can you do to strengthen your immune system?

And I think that as a public health, a public service, you know, health thing, this is one of the most important things that I think you can really focus and concentrate on and an actual thing that you could be proactive about during this weird time. Yeah. Well, definitely I think focusing on lifestyle factors that you can possibly modulate your immune system and strengthen it is important. What's interesting is that the immune system, you know, after doing just so much, of course, the past like couple of months, I've been nothing but like reading about the immune system and trying to understand, of course, this new virus, SARS-CoV-2. But I've just learned so much, you know, over the past couple of months. I'm not an immunologist. I'm not an infectious disease expert. So, you know, while I've had some training in immunology, I definitely, you know, didn't know, don't know everything there is to

know. But what just, you know, doing some reading about like, why are people's immune systems so different? Like, that's the big thing. Like when you take like a young population, as you get older, your immune system does decline. I mean, there's lots of changes that occur. But like in general, like people have different immune systems. And what's interesting is that there's been tons of like genetic studies done

on like, you know, identical twins and they're followed over time. And what's found is that genetics is not the major regulator of immune function. It's something in the environment. And this is what surprised me. And it's not totally going to answer your question, but we can totally get to that. But one of the main things besides age that regulates the immune system is like previous exposure to viruses. So I thought that was really interesting. And in particular, one virus, the cytomegalovirus,

CMV. Did you know like between 50 to 80% of the US population has it, at least by the time they're like an adult? Has it permanently or has caught it? Yeah, it's a herpes virus. So it's a lifelong thing. And this is why it basically, so it changes your immune system. What are the symptoms of it? Most people that are healthy don't ever know they have it because there's no symptoms. Whoa. Yeah. Unless you're immunocompromised. But most people that are healthy, they don't know, you know, that they're infected with it.

Say it again. What is it called? The cytomegalovirus. It's CMV. Sounds like something Godzilla fights. There it is. So what's so interesting, but here's the interesting thing about this virus is that it, so this is one of the major things multiple studies have been looking at, like, you know, just immune variability. And it's like CMV has been identified in multiple studies.

And the reason it got me interested is because I was like, almost 80%. I mean, I could have it, right? I could totally have it. And it changes the immune function. It's totally different between young and old. So when you're younger, and if you have it, it actually enhances immune function. So they've done studies where they have given people influenza vaccine. And oftentimes, these vaccine studies are used to kind of test the immune response and how robust your immune response is, because you're given a vaccine and there's all different types of vaccines, you know, pieces of an

antigen or all different types of, you know, ways that you can expose someone to bacteria or virus. But you have a response to it and the response is, you know, involves your adaptive immunity. You make what's called neutralizing antibodies that basically eventually bind to the virus and neutralize it, prevent it from entering the cell. So people that have CMV that are young have a really robust response to the vaccine, much better. But older people have the complete opposite where it's, deleterious. And the reason for that, scientists think, is because basically this virus, it's stuck with you lifelong, and it kind of reactivates every few years. And like every time it reactivates, it kind of trains your T cells, you know, which are part

of your immune system, to become focused on that CMV. And so as you get older, your T cell population becomes more focused on fighting that virus and less so on other viruses that you're exposed to. But this virus doesn't have any symptoms? Most healthy people don't have any symptoms with it. I know. It's really weird. So what I'm wondering, and the reason I'm even going here, and it has nothing to do with taking vitamin C or zinc zinc and we can talk about that stuff and vitamin D.

But I just thought it was so damn interesting because we hear all these stories in the news where, you know, some people are asymptomatic. Some people are, you know, and some people are just really getting, you know, hard hit. And these people, let's say they're more age matched, right? We know that elderly people are more prone to severe form. But it just made me think, what if this, you know, previous viral exposure to something like CMV is kind of like also kind of shaping people's immune responses in some way? Surely people are going to be looking at that. But I just thought that was a really interesting thing to come across, you know, and then the other sort of on the same, on the same law, along the same lines as previous, you know, previous virus exposure is like something that really seems to be something that is

a main regulator of how people like what, how your immune, you know, what your immune response is, you know? And so. So you mean by how many times you've caught the flu, how many times you've had, whether you respond to it, how you respond to it, you know? Yeah. I mean, like if you kept the flu, is it going to not, is it like a three day kind of thing or is it going to knock you out for two weeks kind of thing? That's what I mean. Right. So, um, I mean, if you, if you get a sample, like there's been these zero surveys where they basically, um, that just means they, they'll get, get a sample of plasma and look for different antibodies, viral antibodies.

And they'll find at any given point a person has like antibodies against 10 different viruses just randomly. You know, so you're constantly being exposed to viruses. You're not always. You just don't succumb to them. Right. You're not always getting sick. And so, you know, like another really interesting kind of thing is like, you know, there's, so the SARS-CoV-2 virus is part of a family of coronaviruses called the beta coronaviruses.

So SARS-CoV-1, the virus that was responsible for the original SARS outbreak in 2002 or something, the MERS one in the Middle East, and then there's two different ones that are responsible for the common cold. Now, coronaviruses are only responsible for between like 15 to 30% of common cold cases. So it's not like the common cold is the illness you get, but there's lots of different viruses that can cause it. But what's interesting is that there's been studies showing that these two beta coronaviruses that are responsible for some of the common cold cross-react with, so there's one that cross-reacts with the SARS-CoV-1, which has a very, it's very, the sequence is very homologous to SARS-CoV-2 virus. And it's also been shown that the SARS-CoV-1 antibodies against the SARS-CoV-1 can neutralize the common cold one. So there's like cross immunity happening between these other viruses.

Right. And so there's been some studies by the CDC on SARS-CoV-2 where they found basically that people that are infected with SARS-CoV-2 also boost their antibodies against the common cold one. So, you know, there's certainly, I think, a good hypothesis to be made that potentially, you know, one or two of these common cold viruses could, the antibodies you make against them could also somehow maybe, maybe, you know, interact with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, potentially neutralize it. I mean, that's a big open question that seems possible. We don't have an answer to that. I think we will. There's large-scale serosurveys being done. I know at least three that, I think his name is Dr. Michael Bush. He's at UCSF. He's doing really large he's doing like really large surveys where they're they're they're going to be analyzing CRF and people from like, you know, blood donors and stuff and like following them over the course of several years to see, you know, just basically understand more.

So now what is the speculation if there's any sort of uniform speculation as to why when you hear about prisons where a lot of these prisoners. as to why when you hear about prisons where a lot of these prisoners i don't know if you've seen that there's a video going around where one prisoner had uh sars sars cove to covid 19 whatever and spitting into a cup and then passing it around to all these other inmates so they could all get it so that they get released so these because they're releasing people especially california which is so wacky they're releasing sex offenders especially California, which is so wacky. They're releasing sex offenders. And there's been some really high-profile releases of these horrible people that should be in jail probably forever, and they're releasing them. It's really disturbing.

But what would cause, other than something like that, what would cause all of these prisoners to not just be positive, that makes sense, but to all be asymptomatic. Is there any speculation as to why these large groups, there was another one that was a meat packing plant where most of the people were asymptomatic as well? I wasn't aware of the meat packing one being asymptomatic, but I did read about the one in prison and it was like blowing my mind. 98%.

Like what's going on? Like that's insane. It's kind of like you read these stories. So, so this is like, there's one thing that it's important to keep in mind when we say asymptomatic, like, you know, there's asymptomatic in like a person that never actually gets symptoms. Right. And then there's asymptomatic. So there was a study done at the CDC, I don't know, a month ago, maybe a little more, where they measured like they did this nasopharyngeal swab test in a nursing home, 70 something people, and 13 of them tested asymptomatic, like they had no symptoms, but they tested positive.

But then they went back a week later and 10 of those people had symptoms and three were asymptomatic. So unless like there's another, like if you test someone and they're asymptomatic at that time of testing, they could be pre-symptomatic, right? In other words, like you have to go back a week later and see if they have symptoms because that, that's really important. So, so let's say even, you know, you know, 60% were asymptomatic. Like, I don't know if they went back and tested a week later, if it was just like a single time, but that's what, that's what, this is what got me thinking about this whole thing was,

you know, in the prisons and jails, I mean, they're in close quarters, and they're you got one virus that someone's exposed to, and they all get it, right? So like, what if there's, I don't know, the CMV, you know, percentage there, but what if the coronaviruses are going around there? What if, what if, you know, some some common cold coronavirus has gone around and that, you know, those antibodies that they've made to neutralize that coronavirus beta coronavirus are somehow helping with the SARS-CoV-2? Like, I would love to see that tested. Do you know if they immunize people, vaccinate people when they go into jail? I was trying to figure that out as well, because the tuberculosis, one of the types of vaccines they do for TB, I think they do it in Japan and some other countries where they've got a really low death rate. And so that's a test.

That's a clinical trial that's now going on where they're trying to test. But I was trying to figure out, is there a vaccination? Is there something like- So I would imagine it would be simple for them to do that. You're entering into prison, they just vaccinate you just to... I couldn't come to an answer. I was searching for that the other day. I was trying to figure that out.

But I think that's also a really good... I mean, there's a ton of theories, right? Right. I mean, it's just, you could go on and on and on. But the whole... The thing that... I just think that I would like to see more research, and I'm just hoping, you know, that that CDC and other people are investigating these, these other,

the cross immunity, right? Like, if there's, if there's antibodies that you're making against another coronavirus, beta coronavirus is in the same family as this SARS one, no one's had SARS one in the United States, you know, so like that one doesn't, that's not as relevant as, but the common cold, that's very common, right? So if 15 to 30% of the common cold is composed of coronaviruses, we know at least two of those coronaviruses are in the same family that have been identified to make, at least in one case, there's been neutralizing antibodies. So there has been cross-immunity. Then you'd think, why not test that like let's get some animal studies started on that you know speaking of animal studies there was an article that i was reading yesterday that was saying that

they're they're hoping that they've found some antibodies in llamas that they're hoping they're going to be able to because let's see if we can find this um because of these antibodies in llamas they they're hoping they can either transfer them to people or learn something about how these antibodies are created but llamas seem to be here it is llamas could be the key to fighting new coronaviruses research says we'll make that larger it says uh it may sound bizarre most, but llamas can be the key to fighting new coronavirus. Researchers from Belgium. Oh, remember, that's the big lady that I was showing you earlier. She's the health lady.

And the United States published an article this week in the journal Cell that highlights the potential use of llama antibodies to prevent COVID-19 infections. Antibodies from a four-year-old Belgian llama named Winter show promise in blocking coronavirus from infecting cells, according to research from the University of Texas, Austin, the National Institutes of Health, and the Ghent, how do you say that? Ghent? G-H-E-N-T University. Studying earlier forms of the coronavirus, researchers have found an antibody in Winter that effectively attached itself and neutralized spike protein in SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV. Researchers believe the particular antibody, which has been found in other llamas as well, can be injected into an

uninfected individual to protect them from getting infected with the new coronavirus. That's very interesting. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's lots of avenues for, you know, therapeutics and, you know, in addition to like repurposing drugs, monoclonal antibodies, you know, being able to basically identify antibodies that do neutralize SARS-CoV-2 virus, whether they come from llamas or humans, you know, and basically identify the specific antibody that can bind to that spike protein that you just mentioned, which is that region. It's known that the antibodies bind there and neutralize it. It's also the region that is used to get inside of the cell. So monoclonal antibodies, I think, are a really big, you know, possibility for a promising therapeutic because

you can then, I mean, the problem is growing like large scale manufacturing them, right? So like if you can identify these antibodies and then manufacture them, you can inject them in people and then potentially get some protection. The problem is, is that that's not like it's going to be a short lived protection. Like it's going to be, it's not like you can, it's not like a vaccine where your body's making its own antibodies and they're, and they're more longer lived, you know, but. So in areas where people are getting exposed, perhaps you could give it to them and it would stop them from getting, but how long would you say short lived?

Well, we don't, I don't know. I mean, how, so it's, you know, it's probably enough to, like if you're a healthcare worker, your first line, you know, health, you know, first responder, people that are definitely like being exposed to large doses of the virus that that could be a promising area. But also, I think even just treating patients like that have already been infected, you know, so that's that's also another. That's also another. So like in combination with some of this other stuff like remdesivir, which is, you know, it's not like a silver bullet, but it seems like it's also promising probably with a combination of other factors as well. But yeah, the monoclonal antibodies is a really, I know there's like Regeneron's a big company. They're growing some large scale ones. I think they isolated from humanized mice or something.

But there's other companies that have isolated them from humans that have been affected. So, you know, that's definitely a promising area for sure. And a good thing about that is that, have you heard of antibody dependent enhancement? Do you know? So that's a big concern. All right. enhancement? Do you know? So that's a big concern. All right. So basically, when your body is exposed to a pathogen like a virus, your innate immune system, you know, the first line of defense like neutrophils, things like that are making hydrogen peroxide, trying to kill the virus. But then in the background, your adaptive immune system, and I'm just totally generalizing,

is also working in the background. And part of that adaptive immune response is to produce antibodies. So you have memory B cells that are making antibodies that are specific to bind to different regions, epitopes on the virus, and neutralize them, prevent them from getting inside of the cell. And so that adaptive immune system usually takes about seven days after you're exposed to the virus, right? The problem is antibody-dependent enhancement. So sometimes a neutralizing antibody is an antibody that can bind to the virus and neutralize it, stop it from entering your cell, right? So it's doing its job. But you sometimes make antibodies that are non-neutralizing or don't do as good of a job.

They don't bind as tight or something. And then you can have what's called antibody-dependent enhancement. And this was like a big problem for the RSV vaccine. Back in the – you know, like most kids get RSV. It's a respiratory tract infection. Most kids get it by the time they're two. Like there's no vaccine that's given. Back in the 60s, there was this antibody-dependent enhancement happening in some clinical studies

with toddlers. And some toddlers got really, really sick and a couple died. But what happens is basically the antibody binds to the virus and can basically change its confirmation and allow the virus to get into the cell better. So then you become like, you know, you get like a higher viral load and then you don't have antibodies to neutralize it. And it just, you know, it could be more, it could be, it could lead to death. The other thing that happens is the antibody binds to the virus, doesn't neutralize it, but it like makes this crazy immune complex that like activates your immune system to just go haywire. And it causes all sorts of pathology. And that's what happened with the RSV toddlers. So there's a few viruses that this happens with. And unfortunately, coronavirus is one like this has been identified with the SARS-CoV-1 virus and I think marriage as well, where so this is also a problem with

vaccines. So like people like giving the vaccine people's immune response, some people can have that antibody-dependent enhancement. And that's what was shown to happen with these – with the SARS-CoV-1. There were some non-human primate studies that did that and also animal studies as well. So the thing with monoclonal antibodies is they're a little more specific because you know they neutralize and you're like growing them up like you've done all that test as opposed to just letting your immune system do its thing. And then potentially, you know, you may have this like non-neutralizing antibody that could cause problems. But that's kind of the concern. And I know that the vaccine people that are working on vaccines are working on them. It's like they're concerned about that and completely trying to figure that all out.

It's such a strange virus. It almost seems like there's multiple viruses. There are. Yeah. And it's funny because it's kind of connected to this antibody-dependent enhancement. There's been quite a few different forms, like mutations that have been identified. But two particular in that spike protein region, that's like an important region because antibodies bind there. And because that's

the region like that, you know, the virus uses to get into the cell. And so there's been two major like strains that have been identified. And one of them, so it's in the spike region, and it's an aspartate to glycine mutation. And basically, in Asia, in China, the predominant form is the aspartate, the original quote unquote form. And then in Europe, and also in North America, this other form, the glycine mutant, is prominent. And there's been studies that have shown looking at like, okay, looking in parts of Europe, different countries in Europe that have this predominant form, that basically there's a higher mortality rate. But they didn't actually measure infected patients. So, you know, it's kind of like correlation. But what's interesting is that there's actually been a genetic link to this mutant.

So there's studies, there's been some large-scale genetic studies that have found that Asians, about 20% of Asians have basically a nucleotide change in a gene that encodes for a protease that's involved in this, you know, basically in allowing this virus to get into the cell. But that basically prevents them from having this mutant that's predominant in Europe and also in New York and North America in general. That's interesting because my friend Michael, who got it, his mom who got it, who's in her 70s, is Asian. And she kicked it in a day.

That is interesting. So there's something. So I wonder if she has that SNP. So our genetic report that we have, we've got one that's a new viral report. It's a free one where we're kind of putting some of these interesting SNPs, which don't mean anything. I mean, it's just information that was interesting. There's a lot of researchers out there trying to figure out if genetics is involved in this. to like figure out if genetics is involved in this. But the thing that's so interesting about that mutation is that it's in that spike region and it's where the antibody binds. And there's

like a theory going around because that specific region, it's been shown in SARS-CoV-1 to cause antibody dependent enhancement. So there's a theory that potentially that mutation is causing people's immune system to hyperactivate and basically become more active and it can lead to a more severe COVID-19 illness. That's not been shown. Like it's not been shown at all. But it's interesting, right? It's interesting how in Asia and China particularly, I mean, about 1% of the population, it's like less than 1% has the other mutation. The glycine mutation that's in New York, it's in most of the United States.

But less than 1% of the population in China has that form. So weird. And Japan has a very low mortality rate, correct? Yeah, they do. I know that I was mentioning that TB vaccine. That's one thing that they're investigating. I mean, there's all sorts of differences in handling the whole, you know, from the beginning, just how you how you handle the virus. I mean, like, there's there's too many factors to like, say one thing, but, you know, there's, there's lots of, there's lots of possibilities. And I think that that I

think that eventually, there's going to be therapeutics that are identified, you know, multiple ones maybe. And I think vitamin D is going to potentially play a role there. But I mean, just like things like remdesivir and the monoclonal antibodies. And then you eventually like, you know, a vaccine will, you know, eventually, you know, be available. a vaccine will, you know, eventually, you know, be available. But I think until that point, I do think that things will be identified that just kind of help us, like, deal with this, like, better, you know. What is going on with blood types? One of the things we talked about earlier, you asked my blood type, and I said O positive.

Yeah. Why is O positive better? Why is O positive better? Well, there's been some data, and this was also identified with SARS-CoV-1, that people with type O blood, they make antibodies. They make type A antibodies. Whereas people with type A blood, they make antibodies against the B antigen. And so the type A antibodies were identified. So there's been studies looking at people with type O blood or type A blood and also type B. And type O blood, there's less frequency of getting COVID-19. So as opposed to having a severe form, it's just like you're less likely to contract it even.

And it's thought because the type A antibodies that people with type O blood make neutralize the, they basically bind to that region, that spike region, and neutralize the antibody and prevent it from, the virus from entering the cell.

So that's, at least that was the mechanism that was shown with SARS-CoV-1. So it's thought, oh, well, the same – we're seeing the same pattern where people with type O are protected from SARS-CoV-2. Possibly that's also why. But another really interesting thing is that people with type O blood – we were also talking about these like blood clots and like – I mean, there's all kinds of crazy things you read. I mean, I'm reading all these publications. And then the other thing is all these publications are being uploaded on, you know, before they're peer reviewed. And I mean, some of them are just a mess.

And it's just anyways. But, you know, you kind of just take it with a grain of salt. Where these clots are like, you know, there's clots in people that are healthy and young. Where these clots are like, you know, there's clots in people that are healthy and young, certainly people that have severe cases, people like older people, people that are pre-existing conditions and stuff. And the type O blood, people have lower levels of this von Willebrand factor, which basically is involved in clotting. And it's been shown that that von Willebrand factor also is higher in people with SARS-CoV-2. It was shown to also be that with SARS-CoV-1. And it's involved with clotting.

So having lower levels may somehow even help protect against. That's a theory. It hasn't been shown. But what is known is that people with type O blood are less susceptible to contracting COVID-19. That's definitely known. But I mean, I think there's so many things. There's just so many factors. A lot of data that needs to be parsed out, right?

For sure. I mean, a lot of data that needs to be parsed out, a lot of data that needs to be generated. and, you know, we need higher quality data. We need, you know, you know, people to repeat stuff. I mean, like, look what's happened with this hydroxychloroquine stuff. Right. I mean, I mean, it's just kind of a mess where initially it seemed like could be helpful. And, and then just more and more studies came out where it was not, not only not helpful, it was toxic. It was causing people to have dangerous arrhythmias and stuff. So that's kind of the reason to kind of be cautious when you have something new in a small study.

It just seems like in the beginning, at least, they're trying to figure out what the correct treatment was for these people as they were just showing up in mass in the emergency rooms. And they didn't really know. And doctors, they varied in how they approached it. My friend Michael, his doctor didn't put him on a ventilator. And he said, if I put him on a ventilator, he's probably going to die. Because he said his body's going to stop working because it's going to let the ventilator do the breathing for him and it's going to give up. And what he was talking about after the fact, what Michael was talking about was how that is proven to be correct in New York. And that some monstrous number, like 80 percent of the people that put on ventilators wind up dying. Not just New York. I like I've had friends that are physicians that have like, you know, in New Orleans.

I mean, same thing where it's like, you know, in New Orleans, I mean, same thing, where it's like, you know, I, there was someone on my team, we were looking, we were doing some research on this, and I didn't sort of dive into the whole thing. But he was, he was telling me that ventilators do actually like cause more damage to the lungs. And like, like, he'd been reading some studies to like, confirm that. And he was pretty certain that that ventilators actually cause damage and actually could like induce damage where it's like making it worse so that's so but i don't know i don't know all the specifics of that all i know is that it looking at the statistics like if you go on a ventilator i mean surely it seems like the outcome's not very it

doesn't seem like it's going to be very good right Right, but it's hard to say, is that the cause of it? Right. Or is it just that they're so fucked up, by the time they get on a ventilator, they just wind up dying. Right. Well, there's been some really interesting data looking at, like in the Philippines and Indonesia, where else? I think New Orleans as well.

They've looked at patients that have died and their vitamin D levels. And basically like in the Philippines, you know, people that for like every standard deviation increase in vitamin D levels, serum vitamin D levels, you know, the people had like an 8% or were eightfold, eight times less likely to have a severe form of COVID-19. And if they had, and they were 20 times less likely to have critical, like critical form of COVID-19. So that was the Philippines. In the Indonesia was a really interesting study where like they measured vitamin D and this was measured in the patients. There's been some vitamin D studies also where they're like looking at, you know, countries that have been affected the worst and

they all like have low vitamin D and it's like, okay, well, anyways, that's a correlation, but well, so is this, but a little, it's a little stronger data that in the, in Indonesia, patients that died 90, about almost a hundred percent, it was like 98 point something percent of patients that died with covid 19 were vitamin d deficient four percent of patients that died from covid 19 were vitamin d sufficient or say four percent only four percent uh were vitamin d sufficient so basically they were all vitamin d deficient all the ones that are dying whoa crazy right and like new orleans had some crazy crazy number would all the ones that are dying. Whoa. Crazy, right? And like New Orleans had some crazy number. What would be the mechanism that would cause that?

So I think there's, all right, can we get into vitamin D? Please do. It's a big, I really think. Because of you, I take 5,000 IUs a day. Awesome. Right now I'm taking 5,000 IUs a day. You know, 70% of the U.S. population has insufficient vitamin D levels, which is considered less than blood levels, less than 30 milligrams, nanograms per milliliter.

This is something that your body can generate naturally if you're exposed to the sun on a daily basis. Yes. That's the best way to get it. It is. But the problem is, is that we don't go outside anymore. Especially now. Yeah, especially now. Now more than ever. And what a terrible recipe, right? Vitamin D deficiency is what makes it worse. And then you're staying inside, so you're not getting any vitamin D. Yeah.

You're becoming even more deficient, you know. Like somewhere like 28% of the U.S. population is actually deficient, like less than 20 nanograms per mil. You know, like that's defined deficiency. So there's a lot of people in the United States. As you mentioned, you make it from the sun. So particularly UVB radiation. There's a reason why I want to talk about this. You make it from UVB radiation exposure.

You know, basically it's made in the skin. But, you know, there are certain times of the year, depending on where you live in a more northern latitude where that UVB isn't even hitting the atmosphere. So you're not making vitamin D. Also, if you have darker skin, melanin protects you like the whole, you know, people with darker skin, people from maybe Africa or India or South Asia. They're more equatorial regions. They're closer, you know, closer to the equator. And there's more UVB radiation throughout the year. And so as a protective mechanism to not get burned, you have melanin, which protects you, right? The problem is, is that melanin also blocks your ability to produce vitamin D. But if you're out in the sun all the time, in a place where you're getting UVB radiation,

it's not a problem. Well, this is the very reason why people in places like Scotland and England have such pale skin. Exactly. Because it's cloudy all the time, so your body sort of develops its own ability to absorb more vitamin D. Exactly. So what happens when you take a person from South Asia, from India, from Africa, and you put them in Sweden or in Minnesota or in the UK, a place where UVB radiation doesn't hit most of the year, and you don't give them a supplement, what happens is they become severely vitamin D deficient.

Severely. And what happens when you take, I mean, you can flip this over and say, okay, what happens when you take the guy from the UK, the Brit, and put him in Australia without any sunscreen or without a hat? They're in cancer. Yeah. So, I mean. Do you think that this could be a factor in why so many African Americans are getting hit so hard? So, here's the thing.

Wow. So, African Americans are. There's lots of. All right. African Americans are in the United States. There's been studies. African Americans are severely deficient. They're 28 times more deficient in vitamin D than Caucasians.

Whoa. Yeah. And it's because they have darker skin. And they're not getting enough sun. They're not getting enough sun because people stay inside more. People stay inside. You know, it's not like the old days when we were out hunter-gatherer and out in the sun all the time. We're inside all the time. We're in school. We're at work,

in our office, in our cubicle. So the CDC, obviously, there's been studies showing that African-Americans are more hit. But they didn't really correct for tons of other factors because socioeconomic status is important, other health factors, you know. But there was a big study just released not long ago from like the National Office of Statistics in Britain or something like that. I don't know what their official name was. But they released some statistics from England and Wales. Wales. And the I don't know what the correct name to say. I mean, the blacks, they're basically living in England and in Wales are four times more likely to die of COVID-19 than than whites. When they when they adjusted all that data for socioeconomic status and for other health factors, there were two times more likely to die. So clearly, socioeconomic status and other health

factors are playing a role, but there's something else unidentified. And I think it's vitamin D. I think that, you know, so, you know, the vitamin D, like it hasn't, look, vitamin, I'm not saying that vitamin D is going to prevent you from getting COVID-19 or it's a treatment. Although I am involved in a clinical study where we're going to be testing a very small open arm study we can talk about. But, you know, I'm not a physician, I'm a medical doctor, I've never intubated anyone. So don't think I'm saying that I don't want people to think I'm saying it's a treatment. I just want to, it's a hypothesis that needs to be tested. And thankfully, there are clinical trials, randomized control trials that are now ongoing, and there are some that are recruiting.

But just the statistics that you've already listed about vitamin D, and the people that have had COVID-19, those are insane. It's insane. And also in Sweden, there's a huge population of Somalis that have migrated to Sweden. And they have been identified as being severely vitamin D deficient because a lot of the Somalis have also like autism rates are really high there. And there's this link between, I published a link also between vitamin D and autism. But so there's been studies looking at vitamin D levels in the Somali population. I mean, they are so deficient because you're taking, again, you're taking someone who's supposed to be, who's, you know, evolved to be getting a lot of sun, but not burn from it. And then, and then putting them in a place where they can't get any vitamin D

from the sun. And if they don't get a supplement, like they're going to be deficient, you know, and they're so much more likely, they're like, it's wreaking havoc in Sweden on the Somali population.

That is so logical. Yeah. And then, okay, so elderly are like insanely more deficient. I forgot the exact number. Obese also, obese people are like three more deficient. I forgot the exact number. Obese also. Obese people are like three times more likely to be vitamin D deficient in the United States. Why is that?

Because vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin, and it's been shown to be 50% less bioavailable. So after you make it in your skin, it's stored in fat, and it's released basically into the bloodstream, and then it gets converted into a hormone. This hormone regulates 5 percent, more than 5 percent of the human protein encoded human genome. That's a lot of – it's a hormone. Like can you imagine just walking around without testosterone? You're a man. That's a hormone.

I mean like because there's a lot of people that are deficient in vitamin D. It's a steroid hormone. It gets converted into a hormone. Like this isn't just a vitamin, you know because there's a lot of people that are deficient in vitamin D. It's a steroid hormone. It gets converted into a hormone. Like, this isn't just a vitamin, you know. It's important. It's really important. So I went off on a tangent. But anyways.

Can I ask you this while we're off on a tangent? What is happening to people when they are vitamin D? Like, what's happening in vitamin D deficient? What is happening in the body that's causing their immune system this hormone deficiency, not having this vitamin D, whether it's through sun exposure or diet? So there's lots of things. I mean, there's vitamin D receptors on like your immune cells. And the reason for that is because when the hormone, vitamin D hormone binds to the receptor, it activates all these genes and the genes do stuff that regulate immune function. You know, there's studies that have shown people – and I love these studies because they basically take away people's complaints about – you know, there's lots of epidemiological studies showing that low vitamin D is associated with disease X, Y, or Z.

And everyone's like, well, you know, they're not in the sun as much, so they're not as healthy, they're not as physically active, they're not whatever, even though those confounding factors are usually corrected for. At the end of the day, it's an association, right? And everyone's like, correlation is not causation, which is true. But sometimes you got to like look at the full body of data, you know. There are genetic polymorphisms. So there are people that have variations in genes that cause them to genetically have lower vitamin D. And so this is called Mendelian randomization when you can take a person that has a genetically – like they're genetically low vitamin D. So you're not categorizing them based on their vitamin D levels.

You're categorizing them based on their gene. And those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections just based on that gene alone. So, yeah, that gene, it's known to lower – it leads to lower vitamin D levels. And so, like, those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections than people that don't have that, which it's a great way of kind of randomizing people by their genes as opposed to doing a randomized controlled trial. Those have been done as well. There was a study that was over 25 randomized controlled trials. People that were given a vitamin D supplement, varying doses, either weekly or daily, monthly didn't work. The people with low baseline vitamin D levels, so people that were deficient, And the people with low baseline vitamin D levels, so people that were deficient, they were 50% less likely to have a respiratory tract infection if they were taking the vitamin D supplement.

Over 50%, actually. And people that had already normal levels still had a protective effect. They were 10% less likely. So even people that were already considered normal taking a vitamin D supplement helped prevent the respiratory tract infection. Can you take too much vitamin D? Yes, you can. You can. What's too much?

So the tolerable upper intake has been set by the Nutrition Board and the Institute of Medicine to be 4,000 IUs a day. But there's been studies that have shown that you can, I mean, people that have taken 10,000 IUs a day for multiple years haven't had any hypercalcemia or had, you know, problems. But too much vitamin D can be toxic. It's not good to take that. It's best to, like, get a vitamin D blood test. And I think that personally there has been a trend. So people that have blood levels higher than 60 may have just a little bit higher calcium level, but not much.

It's not like anything to be hugely concerned about. But there are studies also showing that either vitamin K1. So there's been a meta-analysis looking at 12 different studies, I think, where vitamin K1 or vitamin K2 were given. And both of those improved bone mineral density and prevented any hypercalcemia. Because when you take vitamin D, you absorb calcium better, like something crazy, like 40% more dietary calcium is being absorbed. So the problem is that calcium can easily form a precipitate in general, and particularly when phosphorus is around.

And phosphorus is another thing vitamin D does increase the absorption of. But again, like I said, you know, it's really hard to find any studies where vitamin D is causing, you know, hypercalcemia unless it's like really, really high dose for a while. know, hypercalcemia, unless it's like really, really high dose for a while. I personally think taking the vitamin K, and what's interesting about the vitamin K1 versus vitamin K2, without going into too much of a tangent, is basically the vitamin K1, normally it goes to your liver and it's involved in blood coagulation. But when there's enough vitamin K1 around, it stays in the periphery and it moves calcium, periphery being bloodstream.

It moves calcium out of the bloodstream and takes it to places where it's supposed to go, like the bones and the muscle. Vitamin K2 usually stays around the periphery. It doesn't really go to the liver. So that's usually what it's just doing is, you know, moving calcium out and bringing it to the bones. So I take a – I actually have K1 in my multi that I take, but I also take a K2 supplement, MK4. I take it like a couple times a week. And what dose are you taking for K1? Well, the K1 is in my multi.

So I don't – vitamin K1 is really – it's found in dark leafy greens. So I get a lot of those as well. I get a lot. So I'm getting a lot of K1. Vitamin K2 is not as – it's not as readily found in like the western – I mean it's like the food that's highest in it is that fermented soybean natto. But it's like small quantities and like cheese. Do you ever get concerned from the high volume of leafy greens? Do you ever get concerned of oxalates or getting kidney stones or anything along those lines?

No. Like the few studies that I've seen, it's in people that are like doing insane juicing and they're already like messed up, you know. So I'm not concerned at all. Like even like the oxalates. So oxalates actually, I don't want to go into this. So yeah, no, I don't get concerned. The vitamin D thing is so important to me. Like the reason, there's a big reason I think that vitamin D is so important.

It's for the lung function and the respiratory function. But what's really interesting is that, you know, the very receptor that this SARS-CoV-2 virus binds to to gain entry into the cell, it's called ACE2. that very receptor plays a really important role in preventing lung damage and basically – and preventing acute lung injury, preventing acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS. And what's been shown with SARS-CoV-1 is that – because SARS-CoV-1 also binds to that receptor, ACE2 it's called. And that's how it gets into the cell just like the SARS-CoV-2. When it binds the receptor, it attaches through this weird endocytosis mechanism. It takes the receptor in and decreases the receptor, what's called downregulates. Downregulates the receptor, so you end up having less ACE2, which can cause severe lung injury, not having the ACE2. It plays a big role in protecting. That's been shown in multiple studies. So the SARS-CoV-1 virus does that. It's thought the SARS-CoV-2 also does it

because it enters through the same receptor. And it's been shown that, for example, if you give mice lipopolysaccharide or something that's going to cause lung injury, and then you give them vitamin D. So the lung injury itself also causes the ACE2 receptor to decrease. And so it's like this vicious cycle of like making the damage worse. But if you give mice vitamin D before that happens, the ACE2 receptor increases and it protects them from the lung injury. But you give the vitamin D to control mice that don't have the lung injury, it doesn't do anything to the ACE2 receptor levels. So it's not like full stop. It's not like, you know, drugs, the way drugs are designed is they like, they target a certain molecule and they boom, they like do their thing

and they either increase it or decrease it. A lot of times with like hormones, you know, vitamins, things like that, they maintain homeostasis. You know what I mean? Like so when when shit goes wrong, they fix it. They're not just like, boom, full stop going to like increase something when everything's normal. So and that's important because there have been some concern about taking vitamin D, increasing the ACE2 receptor. And there's another study that was with hypertensive rats where the hypertension caused ACE2 to go down.

And that like makes lung it makes all sorts of problems. It also causes like kidney problems and all sorts of things, right? But the vitamin D increased the ACE2, but only in the hypertensive rats, not in the normal control rats, again. So, you know, and then there was another study that was like some other messed up diabetic animal model where the vitamin D actually didn't increase the ACE2 receptor, but it increased what's called soluble ACE2, which is in like, it's in the periphery. And that actually potentially could bind SARS-CoV-2 virus and prevent it from, it's like

sequestering it, preventing it from entering the cell. That's actually being explored as a potential therapeutic. So the bottom line here is that sometimes you'll hear this ACE2 receptor and that's how the virus gets in. And it's like, I don't want that. I want less of that because that's how the virus gets in. But like biology is always way more complicated than just a simple taking it out of a big picture, right? So like the ACE2 receptor, the ACE2 is part of the renin-angiotensin system. It plays a huge role in inflammation. It's also like when you decrease ACE2, all these signaling cascades happen.

And it's like ACE2 is important for producing pro-inflammatory cytokines at the end of the day without getting into all the stuff, you know, specifics. So it causes massive inflammation to have a decrease. It basically causes acute lung injury. It exacerbates it. I mean, it's crazy. So I really, I just. But like, vitamin D is so cheap. It's so easy. And so many people are deficient and insufficient, you know, like, so yes, as you mentioned, there is, you know, you don't want to take too much vitamin D, you don't want to like, you know, overdose on it. But I think in the short term, you know, particularly like in the short term, and particularly in patients, people that have already been infected, you know, it may be wise to try giving your patient. Like if you're a physician, you know, dealing with this may be wise to try all I'm hearing is drugs and possible drug remedies, potential vaccine that they're working on in the future.

I'm not hearing anything about methods, nutrition that boosts your immune system. This is one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you right now. Yeah, let's definitely talk more. There are, yes, it is. So there are clinical studies, unfortunately, not a ton of them in the United States that are looking, randomized control trials looking at vitamin D, the effects of vitamin D on already, you know, patients with COVID-19, which what would be great is like giving them to like first responders or healthcare workers and seeing like, how does it, how does it,

what role does it play in prevention? Because that really the easiest thing right um i'm involved a friend of mine dr eric gordon he he's um put together so i kind of with um his help i've helped him design a an open arm trial very small 40 patients where we're um where he is going to be giving them 50 000 i IUs every five days of vitamin D. So it's like a weekly dose. Because a lot of times these people are severely deficient. And so you want to give them a higher dose, you know, and, and for, you know, doing doing 50,000 IUs weekly isn't, you know, something that's necessarily going to be toxic or anything like that. And then we're going to, you know, we're doing some other things, vitamin C, three grams, three times a day, and then vitamin B1. We can talk about that, thiamine, as well.

But so, yeah, there are – I think there's like open-label trials are just kind of a start. It's like if you see something – plus we're doing like kitchen sink, right? We got this, this, and this, and this. So I think vitamin D really is the star. I think that potentially – I think it really should be explored. I think it has huge potential. It has to be shown. Like, this isn't something that people can just, you know, take it home and think I'm

protected. Like, that is not the case. We don't know that. There's no data showing that. But I think it has huge potential, you know. How would one do a randomized control study on vitamin D in people that have COVID-19? It seems like – Well, they're going to do it in addition to standard of care.

So it's basically whatever the standard of care is, and that's what is happening at the Hunterdon Hospital in New Jersey. But as you said, it seems like what's really critical is getting it to people before they get it. Yeah, I would love to see that study done. If anyone can do that study. Amazing. That would be, cause that would be like to me, get it to nurses,

get it to first responders. Yeah. Or even just get the information out there and have nurse or nurses and first responders take it. I mean, you know, vitamin D is something again, like 70% of the U SS. population has insufficient levels.

You know. That is such a crazy number. It is. And it's generally safe to take like 4,000 IUs a day. But you're taking five. I am. But 4,000 is what they indicated as the tolerable upper intake. So why do you take five?

I'm just taking 5,000 right now because that's like I could buy the 5,000. I was like, I didn't want to take two pills of the 2000. Well, that's me too. I got one pill. It's 5,000. And I'm like, well, so I had my, my levels measured literally. Like I did went to quest, um, quest labs like a month before all this lockdown happened. So I got my data back pretty, pretty recent. And I still hover around 50 nanograms per mil, even though before I was taking 4,000. Generally speaking, 1,000 IUs will raise your blood levels by about five nanograms per mil. And there are people with different variations in genes

that are related to vitamin D metabolism where they have lower levels and they need a higher dose. The only way you're gonna know that is by, of course, measuring your vitamin D metabolism where they have lower levels and they need a higher dose. The only way you're going to know that is by, of course, measuring your vitamin D levels multiple times and then potentially even doing like a genetic analysis, you know, as well. But you have to measure your levels. Like that's the only way to know. Of course, right now it's like you can't go to a lab. It's like hard to do any of that.

I mean, the things that are like. Ironic. Yeah. But. Right now when you need it. But the vitamin D, I mean, I'm just so like I just I have so much. I have high hopes for it, you know, and maybe maybe I'm a bit of an enthusiast with it. You know, I do like I've studied vitamin D so much.

I've got two publications on it. I certainly like, you know, so, you know, take that with a grain of salt as well. But I just think the data is strong. I really think the data is strong. I really think the data is – I think it's mounting data and I think that eventually something will come out and it's going to – just like the randomized controlled trials showing that it protects against respiratory tract infections. Of course, everyone wants randomized controlled trials. Like no one wants to believe anything until it's a randomized controlled trial. I'm just – I'm amazed that the numbers of people that are deficient. It's so stunning.

And when you point out the number of people that are deficient that actually wind up having severe COVID-19 problems. Right. Yeah, I know. It's stunning, like some of those numbers. It's like the missing link. It's like it's right there. I think that's a really good hypothesis. I do.

I think it's a really good hypothesis. I want to believe it because it's easy. It's safe. And I think people need vitamin D anyways. I mean, you know, so, so of course I want to believe it, you know. But like, there was this interesting study where African-Americans who are very deficient in vitamin D, they were given a vitamin D supplement for like a month and it decreased their epigenetic age by like two years. I mean, yeah. So that's a marker.

For a month? Something like a month, I think. Yeah. In a month, they decreased their epigenetic age by two years. Okay. Don't hold me to the month. Give me some month or two months, but I think it was a month. Most of these clinical studies.

Even if it's three months, that's crazy. Most of these studies are about a month. Yeah. So yeah, by 1.8 years. So what's indicative of their suffering from this vitamin D deficiency, this alleviates that suffering and then puts the body in homeostasis. It's a hormone. Yeah. It's a hormone.

It's changing 5% of the human genome. That's a lot. That's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. That's a crazy number when you think about it. It is. One vitamin doing that.

It's not just a vitamin, though. Right. Yeah. Fucking hormone. Super vitamin. Can you imagine? It it's like what happens when you go into menopause well you're not making your estrogen i mean stuff goes wrong i mean it's a hormone like estrogen estrogen's a hormone you know testosterone is a hormone it's a hormone you know it's wow it's it's important so you know so that's if you have the dr ronda patrick pyramid of supplementation for preventative symptoms of covet 19 or preventative measures dealing with covet 19 that's your base that's number one i take vitamin d i certainly don't know if it's going to prevent covet 19 but i'm not hoping it does. Yes. I take it hoping it will.

But I'm not even saying preventative. I mean, like keeping your body healthy. Totally. I mean, my mom, I've got my mom, I got my dad, I got my whole family. Everyone's on the routine. You know, vitamin D is like the most important. So that's the foundation is vitamin D. Right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm always trying to get them to have that. But like, it's easier to convince when people are scared. People are more likely to make change when like you can't, like if something, they have to be motivated to make the change themselves or just otherwise it doesn't work, you know?

So I think that in this case, um, people are motivated, especially people in my parents' generation that are older because they're, they're more scared. They're more scared that they could be affected by a severe you know case of this right so so i think that's that's certainly you know the issue um yeah i i mentioned i'm drinking my vitamin c water um it's funny because i've probably got like a thousand questions about vitamin C in the past month, month and a half or whatever.

And we kind of like my team and I just dove in and put together an article, released a podcast on it, a video where we just kind of covered everything. I mean, I can't believe how many studies I read on vitamin, 190 references in our article the 28-page article on our website. But vitamin C is interesting, too. I mean, I don't, I certainly, the interesting thing about vitamin C is, you know, there's oral and then there's intravenous vitamin C. And the intravenous vitamin C is what seems to be really relevant right now. what seems to be really relevant right now. But I think the most interesting thing that I learned really had to do with the pharmacokinetics, which is basically like how much vitamin C raises your plasma levels

and is there a saturation point where you can eat 20 grams of vitamin C but still only get to the certain point, you know, and then versus what you do if you like, in your, you know, inject it into your veins, right, intravenously. So what's interesting is that most people that are just like eating, let's say that people are just eating like five, somewhere between five to nine servings of vegetables or fruits a day. Those people have anywhere between like 70 to 80 micromoles of vitamin C like per liter. So it's micromoles per liter in their blood. If you take like a 200 milligram supplement, you only raise your levels

to like 90. So it's not much over that like baseline. Most people that aren't eating that many servings probably have around 50, which is still considered normal, 50 micromoles or micromolar. And then what's interesting is that like, but those levels you take, if you take 200 milligrams, it doesn't do much. If you take a gram, it can raise you up to like 130 or something. If you take three grams, it can raise you to 220. And that's like the maximum level you can get from oral supplementation, 220 micromoles. That's a big difference, 220 versus like 50. So three grams. Three grams. But here's the other interesting thing is that if you don't take it multiple times throughout the day, if you only take it once, you'll peak at around five hours after.

I think there's like a really nice graph on my website on the topic page that shows this. Like you'll peak like five hours after, but then you go down steadily and over 24 hours you're back to normal, your baseline. But if you take it like, you know, four times a day, you can stay at 220 like the whole time. day at 220, like all the whole time. And the reason that's important is because a lot of studies looking at oral vitamin C consumption and like, for instance, the common cold, incidence of the common cold, really depend, like there's huge variations in the results. And it all really seems to come down to dose. Like it really does. And when you know the dose and how that's changing your blood levels, like if you're only taking 200 milligrams, which some studies are doing, it's barely doing anything over your baseline, you know? So I found that really interesting. And then the intravenous vitamin C,

you can, I mean, so far, like the maximum I've seen measured is like 70 times that. Your blood can get 70 times 200. Yeah. So it's like 18,000 or 17,000 or something like that. So IV is far more effective. Oh, it totally overcomes all those saturatable mechanisms. And it's not only more effective, it's a completely different game. So can I pause you here? What dose do you recommend for intravenous vitamin C? Yeah.

Jamie, can you pull up foundmyfitness.com and there's a vitamin C topic page so that way I can answer that question better? Because there's a graph. If you just like scroll to the graph, there's like a graph. And all this is on your website. We should tell everybody foundmyfitness.com. Vitamin C or intravenous. Oh, that's the episode page. That's the podcast.

But scroll back up to the main home. Yeah. So topics. Click on topics. There we go. Vitamin C somewhere at the bottom. There we go. All right.

Okay. Just look for the figure. Scroll. You'll see it. Okay. Great. There it goes. Is there any way you can make that?

Yeah. The bottom one is the one I want to see. That's the intravenous. Okay. So there we go. So's the intravenous. Okay. So there we go. So this is intravenous dose. So you want to get at least 10 grams. So you can see 10 grams is like.

And 10 grams is 10,000 milligrams? Yeah. 10 grams is 10,000 milligrams. So that's about 10 grams. That's what I've done in the past. But what's interesting is when you get above. Got us with the pop-up. My newsletter is great.

I mean I do lots of announcements there. I give commentary and stuff I'm scared to like publish on the website because I don't want to hear all the crap. But anyways. Like what are you scared of hearing about? Oh, no. I'm just like, you know, there's – I'm not scared. I guess that's the wrong word. I just don't want to deal with it.

Right. That's the thing. I just don't want to deal with it. The intravenous vitamin C is a completely different game because it literally generates hydrogen peroxide. Like when you get like doses above, you know, when you start to max out over that, you know, plasma level, 220 micromole, the vitamin C itself, so vitamin C kind of cycles between being oxidized and reduced. It's called dehydroascorbic acid, dehydroascorbate, and then ascorbic acid or ascorbate. Dehydroascorbic acid is the oxidized form and hydrogen peroxide is generated, which is really interesting because

it's one of the mechanisms by which at least it's thought that intravenous vitamin C kills cancer cells. It also has been shown to like kill viruses and stuff in a variety of different studies. But that's interesting because your neutrophils generate hydrogen peroxide. So the intravenous vitamin C is like generating hydrogen peroxide. At the same time, it's also acting as an antioxidant for your own neutrophils, and that's been shown. So people, you know, in clinical studies, but also it's been shown that the hydrogen peroxide does not damage the normal cells. Like normal healthy people given intravenous vitamin C, It's generating hydrogen peroxide, but there's no oxidative damage happening in

people's lymphocytes and stuff, so it's not damaging your own cells. And how often would you do this if you could? Well, the studies, you know, it depends on what virus you're looking at. But I mean, for you personally, just for health benefits, how often would you take it? If you just had access to it every day,

how often would you take intravenous vitamin C? I, you know, it's something, because if you, if you look at the graph, it's kind of a trans intravenous vitamin C is transient. So it's like, it's having, it's not something that like necessarily needs to be done all the time. It's something like I was, I was interested in doing it. Like my mom was, my mom had just gotten sick and, um and like common cold, you know, she had like a runny nose and stuff. And so I took her, we went to get the IBC and they did, it was 10, 10 grams that we did. And I took it cause I was like, well, she's sick and I've been around her and like, I don't want to get sick. So, you know, I thought, why not try it?

And, you know, so, so, you know, the intravenous vitamin C, maybe there's like a reason to do it, but it's not something that I'm certain that people need to do on a daily basis. It's different than like vitamin C, you know, normal vitamin C you do need. You need to get it from your diet. It's important. Like it's important for normal immune cells, normal immune function, and that's been shown. But I don't – I'm sorry to interrupt you, but do you believe it's important to take it orally as well as IV? Well, the IV is – it's totally – the IV is totally different. The IV is really being used as a therapeutic treatment. Like it's a therapeutic treatment more, you know, the IVC, where it's been shown to help with like, for example,

at least in the hospitals in San Diego, it's been shown to help with like, for example, it's at least in the hospitals in San Diego, it's routinely used for sepsis. Like friends of mine, you know, use that use it for treating sepsis. And there's been large randomized control trials showing that it dramatically reduces mortality with sepsis. So like that's especially in combination with thiamine as well, like huge differences in people dying from sepsis, which is obviously very relevant now, but hasn't been shown. I mean, there are clinical studies that are ongoing right now, some in China and some of the United States looking at IVC potentially to help treat COVID-19 associated pneumonia.

You know, it'll be interesting to see the data from those trials, whether or not there's going to be an effect, it's not known. But the fact that it has been shown to treat to improve sepsis outcomes in multiple, you know, studies, it's also been shown, obviously, cancer is like a big one, like that was like, you know, Linus Pauling was like, deemed a nut, like, you know, the Nobel Prize winning chemist who basically is the vitamin C guy. Like he back in the 70s was like championing intravenous vitamin C for cancer patients because he was claiming it was like, you know, curing them, quote unquote, curing them. I wasn't quite doing that, but it was like improving the outcomes of cancer patients. And there's all these studies from the Mayo Clinic came out and they were like, nope, doesn't do that. Turned out they were using oral vitamin C, which is like comparing apples to oranges,

you know? So, but now there's been so many studies, a lot, you know. How's the Mayo Clinic fucked that up? I don't know. They did. That's so crazy. They did. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's who you would depend upon when you wanted to know, well, is this accurate? I mean, this was decades ago. I don't know. Maybe they've definitely gotten more on game since then. They just didn't understand the difference. Yeah. Who knows back then?

The pharmacokinetic studies that I'm referring to, I mean, those are recent. Mark Levine at the NIH, he gets credit. He is really, really involved in putting that out there. Like the difference between intravenous vitamin C and oral are apples and oranges, completely different. Like, and so until that was known, I guess maybe the Mayo Clinic, they just thought, oh, vitamin C is vitamin C, you just can take it orally. And until like, some of that data started coming out, the pharmacokinetic data, where it was like, no, it's not the same thing. Like you're talking about 70 times higher vitamin C levels in

the plasma. Like you could never do that from oral. Like it's not the same at all. Before that was known, I guess maybe that's why. I've even heard people dismiss vitamin C saying that your body only absorbs a certain amount and it's wasted if you take more than that. Well, you do. So here's the thing. So maximum bioavailability does occur at 200 milligrams. And once you go above that, like if you take 500 milligrams of vitamin C orally, you start to excrete a lot in urine. But that doesn't – if you look at the plasma levels, you're still increasing them much higher. You're excreting more too, but you're,

you're increasing your plasma levels more. So you, so you take 200 milligrams, you get your plasma levels of vitamin C up to 90. You take 500, you may get it a little bit more. You take three grams, you get it to 220.

Yeah. You're going to be peeing a lot out, but you got to 220. Right. And so if you look at these, these common cold studies, there's like randomized meta analysis, randomized control trials,

meta analysis of them. They've shown that like, like you know two grams is better than one gram for for like um reducing the duration of the common cold uh two grams is better than one and uh children are more have a more robust effect than adults so like adults like it reduces the common cold like two grams can do something like 20 reduce – reduce the duration by like 20% or something. That's not like emergency. That company got a lot of shit for their claims. But two grams. I said two grams.

Yeah, emergency doesn't have nothing like that. It's like 200 milligrams or something. There you go. So you keep looking down. There's more meta-analysis. There's another meta-analysis that looked at 200 milligrams up to, like, 200 milligrams up to 2 grams. And that study kind of just lumped everything together rather than the other study. Like, okay, what happens is 2 grams in one.

And they did all these sub-analyses. And that was great because they, like, got to the bottom of it. Dose matters. The other study, it was like, oh, it reduces the duration by, like, 4%. You know, basically nothing. So there was all these conclusions. It doesn't do anything. Well, yeah, 200 milligrams, look at that graph.

It doesn't do shit to your plasma levels. Like you're still at baseline. So I think that people designing clinical studies, like that needs to be in their mind before they design their trial. Okay, what am I trying to measure here? Like I want to get, I need to, like, I need a measurable, like, I need something to measure. I need that to change, right, to get an outcome.

Like, if you want, you're trying to, like, see what effect vitamin C has on whatever outcome, you're going to want to raise someone's plasma levels, right? So I guess it's good at the end of the day to know that 200 milligrams doesn't do anything because then you go, okay, well, 200 milligrams doesn't do anything. But it's also good to know that, oh, wait, if I take a higher dose, there is an effect. So, you know, making this general statement that,

oh, vitamin C supplementation doesn't do anything is not necessary. It's accurate in some respects. Yeah, 200 milligrams, it doesn't do much for the common cold. But when you take two grams, it can help. And also other studies have shown that prophylactically is slightly better than like therapeutic. So like after the onset of symptoms. So if you do it like before symptoms, like there's a better, you know, outcome as well. So, I mean, that's all kinds of interesting. So for you personally, if you had the option, would you do it once a week, IV? It's pretty interesting. Yeah, I've, like, I was doing it. I was actually doing it once a week before shelter in place.

That's enough? Once a week is enough? Totally. I don't even know if it's necessary, honestly, to be honest, because, again, it's a therapeutic, you know, treatment. I will say this. Like, one of my friends, she's an MDE, and she has reactive airways. There's interesting studies that have shown that intravenous vitamin C is dramatically reducing inflammation as well.

It's doing all kinds of crazy things. But her cough, and it was very transient. It only happened while the vitamin C was high in her plasma. She's got this crazy cough. I mean, you'd think she'd had COVID. It's just like a constant nagging cough, you know, that it completely 100% went away. I noticed it. And she, like my friend is a little bit, you know, she's a little bit of a skeptic when it comes to like vitamins or anything

like that, you know, so I wasn't going to say anything because her and I have gone in so many debates about it. So, but she said something and I was just like, you know, I'm so glad. And so she, now she's wanting to do it. Like she's wanting to do it, like, you know, once a month at least. So, so I thought that was, you know, interesting. Again, I don't know that the intravenous vitamin C is necessary. There's also interesting effects on like fat oxidation, like it affects fat oxidation because it's important for carnitine, which isn't necessary for oxidizing fat. There's been clinical studies where people are burning more fat when they're exercising if they have vitamin C and if they have low vitamin C levels or not. Burning as much fat, I think it's because it's the carnitine.

I thought that was really interesting. I didn't know anything about that. So we've been doing intravenous vitamin C and glutathione and a bunch of other stuff. Zinc once a week. That's what we've been doing. Okay. Yeah. Zinc's another one that's really, you know, important for immune function as well.

And elderly people are more, zinc deficiency is not really common in the U.S. Most, you know, zinc is found in, it's really high in oysters, but not a lot of people eat oysters. Red meat, poultry, you know, if you eat enough of that, you should be getting enough zinc. What about vegetarians? Vegetarians do, they are more prone to zinc deficiency. And in fact, because the zinc is bound to phytate, it's less bioavailable and they need to like eat like up to three times more.

The RDA needs to be like almost three times as high for them. Or they can just supplement, which I know a lot of vegetarians do. But yeah, zinc is really important for immune function. Like there's been studies where they've like depleted healthy people of their zinc just transiently. And like T cell function like is all messed up. So it like totally messes the immune system up. Randomized control trial is showing that zinc acetate or zinc gluconate like lozenges, they can dramatically lower the duration of common cold. Is acetate or gluconate which one's superior? So there was it's like it was trending that acetate was better. Trending meaning it was non-significant.

Although it was like 40% versus 28%. To me, lowering the duration of the common cold by 40% versus lowering it by 28%, I guess it was non-significant for whatever reason. So the study concluded that they're both the same. But it seems as though acetate may be slightly better. Maybe slightly better. But, you know, I am taking zinc. Zinc is also a positive ion, so you need a zinc ionophore to help it get in to cells. So like flavonoids like quercetin.

Quercetin is found in like apples, onions, buckwheat, teas, which is what I drink. But you can supplement with it, which I also supplement with. Yeah, I supplement with it as well. It's, Quercetin's interesting because it's a zinc ionophore. It's also been identified to have activity against SARS-CoV-1, antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-1. Doesn't it have nootropic properties as well? I don't know.

Am I wrong about that? It has, I don't know. You might be confusing it with something else. It's got senolytic properties, which means it's been shown, it's been identified as a possible compound that can clear out senescent cells, which are those cells that are, you know, they accumulate with age. And they're basically like, they're not dead, but they're just like not really functioning. And they're secreting cytokines and things that age in your bicells. I always like to think of, like, I was mentioning to Jamie that I'm going to be 42 next month. And so, yeah, I have some gray hairs.

Hey, gray hairs. And it's funny how, like, you'll get one gray hair, and the other gray hairs, like, cluster around that one. Like, they're clustering. And I always think of, like, because cellular senescence happens in the melanocytes that are responsible for pigment. So I always think about, oh, the senescent melanocyte is like secreting all this pro-inflammatory stuff that's now accelerating the age of my other nearby hair follicle melanocytes. It's causing them to. Anyways, quercetin has been identified to clear away senescent cells. So that's kind of cool for aging.

For gray hairs. And all just for aging in general. No, that's just my analogy for people to understand why senescent cells are bad because they age other nearby cells by secreting all this stuff, pro-inflammatory cytokines.

One thing I forgot to ask you about vitamin D deficiency is red light therapy. What would that have to do with vitamin D? I don't know. Do you know about these red light machines that people stand in front of? Yeah, the photobiomodulation. Yeah.

Does that have any effect on vitamin D? That's not UVB. Okay, it's different? Yeah. yeah. And I think that that itself, it's an interesting field. I would say that the marketing has got a little ahead of the science for that. But I do think that there's promise, particularly for some treatments. some um treatments you know there there are some claims out there that are sort of being backed up by very poorly done studies but um so i think i think there's some promise out there for it

just makes you feel good does it yeah it's interesting i've been doing it i try i wanted to do it before i even talked about it for a month solid. And I do it basically four or five days a week. And I don't know. It's hard to tell because I do so much shit. Do you sauna? Yes. Because that makes you feel good. Every day.

Every day. I'm doing it five days a week. I'm doing it seven days a week, 180 degrees for 25 minutes. Dude, I do 180 degrees for 25 minutes. Dude, we're on it. Yeah. Unless it's, if it's 190 or 188, then I'll do 20. But yeah, I do 25 at 180 as well.

That seems to me the sweet spot, you know, and I've been doing it every single day of the quarantine because I have a sauna in my house. Do you have a sauna in your house? We do. Well, it's in our office, which is like home off. It's like, it's like, well, it's not in our not in our home but it's yeah it's just next door pretty much so um we got that literally you're not gonna believe it's like like three hours before shelter in place was put in put into california i mean i couldn't i couldn't believe it well we uh we had ours done just a few months

before i mean it was just i was thinking like, if we didn't have this in the house and you couldn't go anywhere. Luckily we have one here so I could use the one that's here. But it's a godsend. It changes everything. It's a game changer. It's a game changer.

And I've been doing, so I haven't had a warm shower since the shelter in place. Since I got my sauna. It's amazing. Like I do, I don't want to make people feel bad. Look, I went a long time without a do. I do. It's amazing. Like I do. I don't want to make people feel bad. Look, I went a long time without a sauna. I know what it's like. I was doing hot baths and we can talk about that. Yeah, it is. But there is something about the sauna and then

the cold bath, the cold shower, sorry, the cold shower. That is just, it is a game. Like I am so much more relaxed. And this is like, I think I've told you the story. The whole reason I got interested in the sauna was because I was in graduate school doing it like every day. And I was like, this is amazing. I am so much less stressed. I am like calmer. I'm more relaxed. I'm happier.

Something's happening. So I was like into the not even all the muscle and all the cardiovascular. I mean, it mimics cardiovascular exercise. It really has a big difference in my cardiovascular activity. It's been shown to. In people, there's a study. This was, I think, Gary Laukkonen, who's a friend of mine. He's like the best, the leader in sauna research in Finland. at cardiorespiratory fitness and I think other cardiovascular disease risk markers in people

that were physically fit or physically active and plus the sauna or just physically active. So physical or just sauna alone. So physical activity was like the king. So if you compare physical activity alone to sauna alone, physical activity is the best at improving cardiovascular health. Sauna is also good. Sauna and physical activity together were better than the physical activity alone, which I was like, yes, that's what you want. I don't remember.

I don't remember. I was like, you're asking me like six months ago or more. But that's what you want, right? Like you want like you're like i'm already physically active i mean you're like more physically active than me and so um but that's what you want is like the combination it makes a big difference once i started doing it during the lockdown one of the things i noticed the runs that i do the last hill is fucking brutal and i always finish on this last hill but now I've been able to run that last

hill, the last hill. It's like a market difference. When I hit the hill, I'm like, wow, this is crazy. Either I'm getting in better shape and I know I am for sure, but it's also, I got to think the sauna has a big impact because it feels like I'm on a drug. It feels like I'm on, I don't know what EPOs feels like, but I would imagine it would feel something like this with the increased cardiovascular benefit is very noticeable. Totally. Totally. I mean, there's been some small studies looking at, you're talking about performance enhancements. There's been some small studies showing that, particularly with endurance, that there is a performance enhancement. I think it was cycler. Maybe it was running, running and cycling. Have you ever measured your heart rate

during it? So, yes. So here's the thing with that. Like at first I was like terrified to do that because I didn't want to ruin my Apple watch, you know, I've like ruined some things there. And like Kevin, Kevin Rose was like, no, just put your hand on. I do it all the time. And like, I'm like, he's a tech guy. So I'm like, all right, Kevin Rose tells me I can take my Apple watch and the hot freaking sun. I'm gonna do it. Right. So, um, you know, my heart rate, it, it, it can get up to like 120. But the thing is, is that there is adaptation that happens. So you're basically like you're becoming adapted. And so your heart rate doesn't increase as much like over time.

Right. And I'll be honest. I stopped wearing my watch in there. So I'm not measuring my heart rate anymore. So you get a whoop strap because the whoop strap has no problem at all. Yeah. The whoop strap. W-H-O-O. Yeah. P. I'll get you one. I'll have one sent to you. All right a whoop strap because the whoop strap has no problem at all yeah the whoop strap yeah p i'll get you one i'll have one sent to you all right because they're one of the sponsors of the podcast but i love it i would love to have something to measure it without because having to take my watch in there because i don't like sitting like it's like you know well

the whoop strap measures it really well and it'll give you like you could actually mark it down as an activity and it'll show you where your rate. You had a mountain of data. It's really good. That's cool. It's also great for sleep. It shows you really accurate sleep. It actually has a sleep coach built in. So it shows you how much sleep you got, how much recovery, where your recovery's at, and what you need.

It'll even tell you, hey, you should go to bed. Since you've been getting up at six o'clock in the morning, you should go to bed by 10 tonight. Nice. Had you noticed an effect? So I've been doing the sauna every day, or sorry, five days a week. Um, because, uh, I would do it every day, but, um, I gotta have, you know, more time with my son, but have you noticed an effect on your sleep at all? Yeah. I feel relaxed. Do you? Yeah. Do you feel like you need more sleep though? You know when you're working out hard, you sometimes require more sleep?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I do squats, for sure. Anytime I do lunges and squats and heavy leg days, I'm a zombie for two days. And if I have a particularly intellectually challenging podcast, I'll skip leg because i know i'm just gonna be too stupid i've done it before where i come in i'm like i can't form senses what's not if you see what i'm doing there was this weird there was a study that linked um there was a link between like leg strength and cognitive function it's very strong like the more leg strength you had, like the improve,

it was like some kind of crazy number two. It makes sense. Yeah. It just makes sense that if you have more leg strength, that means you're doing more activity. That means you get more blood flow. That means everything's probably functioning better because it's such an enormous part of your body.

When you look at your musculature, the large percentage of it is from the waist down. And when I do, when I'm doing leg work, like if I'm doing most of what I'm doing is kettlebells, but I'm doing lunges and presses and squats and all these different things with heavy kettlebells. So it's like, it's a lot of weight that your muscles are pushing. Dan is always trying to get me to do squats. Like I don't know what, back when I was in grad school, I was doing squats and i was using

the stuff and then i was doing i guess what are they called leg presses yeah and i like injured myself and in this i want to call it sciatica what's the other one that's like sciatica there's another sciatica is is a nerve that comes from your discs like right here yes well you know what that's from though i don't know what i i don't? Yes. Well, you know what that's from, though. I don't know what it is, and I'm calling it sciatica. Well, sciatica, most of the time, what you're getting is your lower back, your discs are protruding. And your disc, like if you have a herniation of the disc or if you have a bulging disc, it's pushing against your nerve,

and that's sending that pain down usually your butt and into your back of your leg, and along those lines. Right? Is that where you were getting the pain? I don't really get it. It's only, it doesn't go into my leg. It's just like this like right above my butt. Right above your butt.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's a lot of times you think it's that area, but it's not. It's your back. And it's your back with a disc pushing into the nerves have you had an mri no you should have an mri okay because i'm here to do squat like squats or like like every time i do that yeah i get a flare up and it's like i'm sure i'm out well

there's other things you can do to strengthen that area and like what like well first of all there's a machine called reverse hyper it. It's fantastic. Reverse Hyper? Yeah, I have one outside. I'll show it to you. But it was created by this guy, Louis Simmons, from Westside Barbell. He's a genius. He's given us this new platform, too, that's amazing, too. What is that thing called, Jamie? Belt squat.

Belt squat. I love this thing because you wear a belt and the weight is actually pulling the weight is behind you I'll show how it works before but you're on this platform and all the weight is on this belt instead of on your shoulders so you can have like 250 pounds

or whatever it is but it's all being carried see that's the thing right there yeah that's similar to what we have, but the machine that we have is a little bit more complicated. But the point is this guy comes up... Are there any pictures of females doing this?

Only gorillas. These big giant dudes. But the reverse hyper, the reason why it's so special is... Forget about this for a second. Yeah, there's a girl. There's a girl using that. That is a more primitive version of the one that we have out there, the new one that Westside Barbell sent us. It's just a cable that comes through the floor, and the weights are actually behind you.

And you're carrying all the weight on your hips, so it strengthens the legs without putting a load on the back, which is fantastic. Wow. I like that for that. So you can get all the leg work that you get from squats, but you don't get the pressure on the discs. And then the reverse hyper is a machine that he actually invented. Louie Simmons invented it because he had a herniated disc and the doctors are telling him, hey, we have to operate on you because you have this compressed disc. And so he's a very smart guy and he knows so much about physical fitness and weight training. That's Louie right there. He came up with this machine.

So he said, well, listen, if something compressed it, something can decompress it. So he came up with this machine. And with this machine, the reverse hyper does on the lift. It's strengthening the lower back muscles. But then as you drop it down, it swings low and it actively decompresses all of your discs. Wow. I'd be so scared that's's going to aggravate it. No, no, no, no, no.

Trust me. First of all, you could do it with no weight. You could do it at first with no weight. And that's how a lot of people, when I introduce people to it, I have them do no weight. But for me, it's been a giant game changer. So I do that. And then there's another thing by Teeter. Teeter makes this decomp decompression decks it's

called the dexx and from that you hang from the waist you like strap your i have that outside as well you strap your ankles into it and you hang from the waist and it just all your that's it right there so with that that lady right there in that image she's holding on to those handles and that's how you kind of get yourself down but once you get yourself down you just relax and all of your weight see how that guy's doing it there all your weight is decompressing the spine so it stretches the spine out and decompresses it and it gives you a lot of relief so between those two particular uh pieces of equipment, the reverse hyper and this Dex 2, which I fucking love that thing. DEX? Yeah, DEX 2.

So when I get my home gym, I'm going to have to get all this stuff. Yeah, that's made by Teeter. Teeter has two things that are really cool. It has those inversion tables, which are great for the same thing. You're hanging by your ankles and it's decompressing your spine. But I actually prefer this product from them because this completely isolates the back and you're not pulling on your knees and your ankles when you're decompressing. It's all just decompressing the back. And also you can do leg extensions and a bunch of other things. You see people doing dips

and other exercises from the Teeter, but it's a great machine, and it's just really specifically good for back health, lower back health, decompressing it, and even strengthening it because you can do those back extensions. So you hook yourself into it, and then you just lift your back up and down. Everything that I'm scared to do. But you shouldn't be scared to do it because that's what's going to protect that area. What's going to protect that area is muscle and strength and also flexibility if this works that would be just incredible i guarantee you it's going to work because i'm so like the whole time i had a gym membership or

it's been like on pause but the whole reason i had one because it's on it like i'm like scared to do like i do free weights i have free weights and i'll do that but like i'm just scared of machines all that get you a trainer. That's what I need. That's what you need. Because so many people fuck themselves up by trying to do things on their own. And I did. And now I'm scared. It's like this.

Like, and now I'm. I guarantee you it's just poor form and all kinds of other stuff. I need to do more. I'm a big, like, I go for my, my thing is like, my jam is like endurance. I love going for runs. Like, you know, and I, it's like huge like it's so great for the mind right that's the reason i do it like absolutely with with this shelter in place thing because i like to do outdoor runs and i don't have a a treadmill or anything like that i mean it was

like i finally got a jump rope and it came in right when the beaches opened up but because i can i'm good at jumping rope and i should have been doing that but i was saunaing every day and doing you know i was doing some like i doing some like ballet stuff, you know. But like I need to do resistance training. Like muscle mass is important. Yes. Like for aging. Sure.

And bone density. Bone density, right. Lifting weights increases bone density, tendon strength. So many different variables that are so huge because as your body gets older, those are the things that go south. Yes. And I, you know, look,

I'm going to be 42 next month. So like 52. So that should make you feel better. Yeah. You, I mean, you're definitely like you're fit, you know?

So I need to, I need to keep that. You can't ever let it go. That's no. And I, I definitely like my diet. I, you know,

that's dialed in and I'm, I definitely like do the running and the sauna. But I need to be better about resistance training for sure. I used to do yoga a lot. But, you know, I became a mom. It's like, I mean, like I used to work out like, you know, twice a day. Twice a day I would do my yoga or my ballet. And then I would run.

And now it's like, you know. Did you realize how much work being a mom was before you did it oh no i had no idea i mean it's amazing so ignorant oh it's i have no idea it is i mean it's tons of work i mean it's insane sometimes i like it's like three o'clock in the afternoon i'm like i never brushed my teeth you know like i i haven't showered in a couple of – you know, the sauna thing, like I have to shower now. But like before I was doing the sauna every single day, yeah, showers. I mean, it's like nap time. It's like, well, I can get work done or I could take a shower.

What should I do? I got a lot of work to do. It's hard. You know? It's hard. So thankfully I have help from my mom. My mom is like, you know, she's Nana. So she helps out a lot.

So I can actually get work done. That's great. It's hard, you know, being a mom that's, you know, I have, you know, I run a business. But I also like want to be a really good mother. So it's like. Yeah, I get it. It's hard. The balance is very difficult um it does help if you have some equipment in your house you know that that certainly helps yes and that's like we've been like leaning towards that and it's it's you know

we're slowly getting to the to the point where we're going to have more and more where it's just like you you have to have easy access it has to be something you can just you know do real quick and you need to find a trainer. Just find someone that can, I mean, you can learn a lot online, but you have access to resources. You really need to find someone who's willing to come. And you live in San Diego. It's an awesome place for fitness. I mean, there's so many people down in San Diego that you could find.

Right. Yeah. Find someone. Find some gal who's fucking jacked and knows how to lift weights. You know? And then I'll like inform them all about the sauna

and tell them all about the benefits of the sauna. Yes. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm sure they can get a lot out of that.

I mean, but I'm sure there's someone listening to this right now that's probably going to message you and say, I'll do it. Right. I'm your huckleberry.

Hey, I wanted to tell you this about the, the, I've been nice. It's been like just having the effect. I think the first time I came on your podcast, like I don't know how many years it's been. It's been a while.

But I talked about the sauna. It's been five years at least, right? Yeah. It was like, what, you're wearing 2020 now? Yeah. It's more than that. The first time you came on? I think so.

2014 maybe? Wow. 2014 yeah because i was still a postdoc so yeah 2015 i stopped i cut that out like i finished my postdoc so i published a couple studies so i think it's 2014 but like the sauna you know it's just been like something i came on your podcast the first time and we talked about it and then, of course, continue to publish videos and articles and stuff. And I'm writing a review article for peer review publication right now. But there's a woman who reached out to me. She's she was she had done her I think her Ph.D. either her Ph.D. I don't know psychology, but she had done it with a guy interviewed in the podcast, Dr.

PhD, I don't know, in psychology, but she had done it with a guy I interviewed on the podcast, Dr. Charles Raison, who is, he's the guy who showed that like a single hyperthermic treatment, which was with a device that raised the core body temperature, like almost three degrees could have an antidepressant effect. Well, she reached out to me and like the FDA shut that whole machine down. Like, no, you can't use that for research anymore, which kind of shut down the whole sauna depression, you you know research area so um she basically she has gotten some um funding and she's she's doing a pilot study with a new device which is something you can like buy off amazon where it's like a sauna like your head's out but like it's like a tent like a sauna tent

yeah my wife had one of those before we had a sauna yeah so it's a little it's different but it's something that you know she's got to prove that it's safe before like the fda will allow her to even like continue on to like measure like to study how it affects depression and so um i've been able to um you know help help with uh connections i've had help fund new study she's going to be doing where she's going to get depressed patients to basically be exposed to this sauna. And it's like an intense, like she's like this intense protocol where like she's like it's like an hour long and they get really hot and people are giving them wet towels because like it's like it's like imagine being it's like 140 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's an infrared, but they're in there for like an hour, you know,

and they're getting they raise their core body temperature. They're measuring that rectally. So, but she's going to measure the effects on, you know, on depressed patients. So it's really exciting because, and they're going to do like a dose response where they're going to see how many, the Charles Raison, Dr. Charles Raison showed one, just one single session could result in an antidepressant effect six weeks later. She's going to do, try to do eight sessions eight sessions where she's going to see if these people can handle it. Over the course of how much time?

I think it's going to be once a week. Once a week for eight weeks? Yes. And when you say, what is the methodology? What are they using? So, okay. What are they using? They're using that sauna that I was telling you about.

The same thing? So they're using that. Yeah, that's the about. The same thing? So they're using that. Yeah, that's the sauna. So she right now, her name is Dr. Ashley Mason. What did they do before where they were saying they cut it, they wouldn't let them use the machine? Okay, so that was a device. It was like this device that basically is sort of like a far infrared thing, but it would raise your core body temperature through infrared, right? Oh, okay.

So what is the difference? What difference? When people ask me about infrared saunas. Infrared, yeah. So infrared saunas, the main difference between infrared saunas and like the regular dry saunas that you and I use is that the regular dry saunas are heating the ambient air, right? And that's then raising our core body temperature through that mechanism. The infrared saunas are like, they're like changing electrons.

They're like directly heating your body, basically, without having to heat the outside air as much. There have been some studies that have compared, I mean, there's benefits with these infrared saunas. In Japan, it's called Weihon therapy. It's far infrared. And they use it. It's been used to, like, help even treat different cardiovascular diseases. Like, it's been shown to improve, like, chronic heart failure or something like that, I think. So there's benefits with these, with the infrared.

Personally, I think there's a lot there's a lot stronger there's much more research on um not only dry saunas but in finland they take they take the sauna uh dry sauna that has like these hot rocks and they pour water on top of the the hot rock and so it creates humidity right steam and so so that's really a common sauna like i went to finland a few years ago visited finland some other saunas there in finland and so that's a a common sauna. Like I went to Finland a few years ago, visited Finland. Some of their saunas there in Finland. And so that's a very common thing. I think they call it like, first of all, they call it sauna. Sauna.

And they call it. What a weird way of talking. Luel or something. Well, they make the steam. Do you pour water on your rocks? So our sauna is like, it's pretty small. It's a two person sauna. And yes, so I can get the humidity.

If I get it up to 50%, I feel like I'm burning. You're cooking. Yeah. So yeah, if I'm in a rush and I'm like, I just got this. I got things to do. So I'll pour the water on the hot rocks to like just get it really feeling really hot. But my personal favorite is like a nice 25 minute, 180, no water, just dry. Like I like that.

I'm so accustomed to 180 that I used one in Vegas. And when I was there, it's like it was 160. I was like, this is ridiculous. I could be here forever. And so I just started pouring water on the thing. I got 10 bottles of water and I just pour in bottles of water because it was just me in there. Right. And I got that fucker hot as hell.

It was like, OK, now we're cooking. I was sweating up a storm. It works. I mean, like I said, ours is really small. And so, like, I mean, you're breathing like it's, like, burning you. There's a direct formula, too, between the percentage of humidity and then the increased temperature, the way it feels. Like if it's at 180, but you have 10% humidity, it's like being at 190. Yeah, there is.

I don't know what that formula is, but absolutely there's a formula. And in a lot of the studies coming out of Finland, many of the the people there are using are doing the humid saunas as well. So, I mean, I guess they're called Finnish saunas, which means like they're using the hot water and steam. It would be amazing to have a sauna, an outside sauna that's right next to a frozen lake like the way they do it. Oh, yeah. They cut a hole in the lake and then get the party started. So what we did, I went I visited the sauna society and it was Oh, yeah. They cut a hole in the lake and then get the party started. So what we did, I visited the sauna society. And it was in November, so it was cold.

And it's right on a lake. And so they have like, the day I went, it was not co-ed day. So, you know, it's only women saunas that I went in. It was like sectioned off. So you go and you do these different, they have all these different types. And I don't remember and they're like whipping each other with like birch wood, you know,

which it's interesting. Yeah. The Russians like to do that too. They call it the banya. Right, the Russian banya. Yeah, they beat each other with these branches that are wet. So, okay, let me tell you my story.

Anyways, they jump in the lake and then they go back and they're doing this. So here's my, did I ever tell you my story anyways they jump in the lake and then they go back and they're doing this right so here's my did i ever tell you my crazy story funny story about finland which crazy story so i have a there's a friend he's a friend he's you know some of your friends are a little eccentric right well this guy he's got he's got um you know huge um property in like the country in the woods like in in finland and this is like the first time i ever went camping and it was like snow camping it was crazy crazy. It was like the worst thing ever. Like he had, he had us do this, like, there was like two tents and, and it was a conference that I gave a talk

at. And so there, some people paid extra to like go to this event that, that was after it. So there was like 30 or so people there. And they were from all around the world there was only like three americans me dan and some other guy no four americans i think but anyways um it was my first time camping like outside like not in like like i've been to yosemite but i like stay in a cabin you know i don't like sleep in a tent right but so it wasn't a great experience because one there was this guy who snored all night. Two, because it was snow camping, we had to like – there was some weird fire thing. And this guy was in the military. And so he had us do this thing where like everyone had to wake up at – I forgot what it was every hour.

Someone was – you had to pass this thing. Oh, so you were in a big wall tent. We were in a big – I don't know what it was called. But I didn't sleep the whole night and it was awful. But here's my sauna experience so he um doesn't believe in you can't wear like swimsuits or anything in the sauna so you have to be like you have to wear no clothes or if you if you really wanted you could wear a towel like if you were modest or whatever because to them it's like you know no big deal the sauna you just you don't wear any clothes and never buy that i think they're okay so they were i know they told me they told me oh no the sauna is an asexual place and i'm like really get the really you're a human being in

there i know so so so only three people wore a towel me dan and this other american and so everyone was in there naked lots of like there weren't that many females um but there were some from i don't know the uk there were some from i don't know the uk or in some german i don't know but they were all naked like it was like i guess europeans are like that you know like they're more used to it or that's what someone was telling me i don't know what the what the case is but anyways i had people coming up to me going i love your podcast and this i'm like i'm not gonna get naked before like at the conference and they were there and you like you think i'm gonna be naked like in the sauna with someone who's like i mean a podcast fan yes oh my god they're in your face so anyways

i'm in the sauna everyone's naked and then he the and and the guy who's my friend okay he's still my friend he's he's an interesting guy but he had like people come and started doing yoga. So they're naked, too. Jesus. People are totally naked. They're doing downward dogs. Naked. Wonderful. Get out of here.

So that was like my my first Finnish sauna experience where it was like. Some people are too open minded. They really are when it comes to things like that. I was just happy. He was like, you can wear a towel if you want. Because he has. I wouldn't do it. I'm like, get out of here. You're not staring at my junk. Yeah. So then just happy. He was like, you can wear a towel if you want. Why wouldn't you do it? I'd be like, get out of here.

You're not staring at my junk. Yeah, so then I went, they were all jumping in the lake after, and I'm like, I'm going to just sit on this patio. It's freezing out here in Finland in November. I'm not going to take my towel off and jump in the lake forever. Why can't you wear a swimsuit?

Why? Says who? Like, what is the difference? There's zero difference in the benefits of it. It's some cultural thing it's a cultural thing and also he claimed that there's like toxins being released from oh one of those assholes fuck off buddy i got a swimsuit on and then okay the yoga was bad it got worse then he had some he had some whipping technique with the birchwood and he wanted like to

demonstrate it so he had like one of the Britain girls. And she was laying. I mean, it was just like, it was too much. Here's the truth. I was hot as fuck. So I didn't care anymore. I cared about my towel, but I didn't care what was going on. I was trying not to look at everyone.

I didn't want to see. I'm married. I don't want to see everyone's stuff. Well, people get sexual, sexual too because it's hot and sweaty and if this guy's like it sounds like he's a little bit of a cult leader right like someone needs to be naked oh okay that's someone was asking me that because he passed out like this flyer because it's like we were doing all these events you know all these events were happening and this flyer passed out and was like we're reading it and i was like it says you have to you can't wear any clothes or swimsuit or anything because i had

packed my swims i was like yeah i'm gonna wear my swimsuit and sauna you know you can't tell people they can't wear clothes this is his own home sauna you know yeah how convenient but you could wear a towel so great thanks buddy all that toxins talk. As soon as someone's talking about cleansing toxins, we're like, fuck off. I was so put off with the toxins stuff. It's funny because the sauna, that's the one, for years, all the benefits about sauna were always about toxins, right? They're always toxins, toxins. What are you talking about?

Show me what you're saying. You're talking about just regular sweat? But it does. Sure. Regular sweat. Regular sweat. It doesn't have to be from sauna it could be from exercise but you do you do sweat out certain compounds like aluminum aluminum's like it's funny that you you can actually excrete certain compounds better from sweat than urine because that's another way of eliminating things is through urine but um aluminum cadmium and there's one other that i don't remember sweat it's like the best way to get to get rid of that the conversations you have with people that are into releasing

toxins it's like you're talking mumbo jumbo talk most of the time i try not i'm trying not to judge like i really do you should judge but i have a hard time you should when they start to go there i'm like you should have a hard time and you should judge i do but i try not to well it's just they say things that they don't really know what the fuck they're talking about and they say it with such authority and i've had those conversations in public saunas before too where people are people like they start getting into the toxins and the whole sauna and like i'm just sitting there quiet and i'm just like okay let me start to tell you some benefits like like some real benefits, cardiovascular. Did you know that it actually mimics exercise?

Like literally like that's been shown. It's been like compared like 25 minutes in the sauna, 25 minutes on a stationary bike and same things are happening, you know, like blood pressure goes down afterwards, heart rate variability improves, you know, so same things are happening. You're increasing plasma volume. Heart rate increases. Core temperature increases, right? Exercise is doing the same thing.

That's the antidepressant effect that I feel from the sauna that Charles Raison published and that Dr. Mason will hopefully carry on the torch. I think it's real. And I think that there's, there's potentially multiple mechanisms, immune, you know, modulations, but also just the fact that like BDNF, you know, there's a study showing that hot baths do increase BDNF and BDNF brain

derived neurotrophic factor, which why would you think everybody would know what that means? I know. I just, I thought everyone that listened to your podcast, not everyone. There's millions of people. I don't even know what that means i know i just i thought everyone that listened to your podcast not everyone there's millions of people i don't even know what it means you do i do when you say it yeah once you said it i go okay yeah brain drive bdnf brain derive neurotropic factor yeah what's so amazing about this neurotropic factor is that it's always thought about in the context of of brain aging because it helps you grow new neurons.

It's neurogenesis. It helps already existing neurons survive. But there are studies now showing that it regulates what's called neuroplasticity, which is the changes, you know, with the changing environment. But you have to be able to adapt to that, right? Like children are really good at that. Like they have a lot of neuroplasticity. But neuroplasticity is associated with depression. Like not being able, like stressful conditions and stuff like that,

like not being able to like adapt. I'm not using like the best of terms, but neuroplasticity is something along those lines. And so, and BDNF plays a role in that. And BDNF has been shown to be, you know, to increase with exercise and also with heat stress. I'm glad you brought up hot baths, because that's something that I wanted to cover before we got off track. When we're talking about sauna, when people that don't have access to a sauna, how much benefit can they get out of a hot bath? Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. because there was, you know, so a couple of things. One, there was a study that showed hot baths can have an antidepressant effect. And these people were put in 104 degrees Fahrenheit bath where they were up to their shoulders for like 20 to 30 minutes.

And the sham control was like a green light like so people thought they were getting a treatment they were getting some kind of green light therapy or whatever you know so it was a placebo control because placebo effect is definitely real particularly with depression um and it it it had a pretty powerful antidepressant effect very similar to charles raison study with the the hyperthermic chamber thing. And when you say antidepressant, there's no real way to measure that? They have this whole, yeah. I mean, so there are some, there's potential biomarkers being identified. C-reactive protein being one.

Inflammation. Inflammation plays a, there is like a huge link now between the immune system and chronic inflammation and depression. Brain function in general. Brain aging. But inflammation. So, I mean, there is a push for looking, but not all depressed patients have it. It's like there's a subset of C-reactive protein.

But, yeah, depression is measured. It's very much like have someone. So a subjective measurement would be a clinical person like measuring a whole battery of things they do. I forgot the name of the test. But, yeah, that's the test. So it's like basically a battery of feeling things. So it's not like a hardcore quantitative biomarker, which so badly is needed. But the hot baths have also been shown – So heat shock proteins, which do like amazing.

There's so many amazing things that heat shock proteins do. They've been shown to prevent muscle atrophy. And that's, you know, in the brain, they're so important, like preventing proteins from aggregating in the brain. That's how I first got in. Like one of my first biological experiments ever because I was a chemistry major in college. So I was doing all chemistry stuff, organic chemistry and like chemistry. But after I graduated, I went to work at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences in La Jolla. I was working in an aging lab. And one of the first experiments I had that I was doing, like one of my first projects was we were taking the human amyloid beta gene and injecting them in these worms,

these nematode worms that only live like 14 or 15 days. And we were making them form amyloid plaques in their muscle. So like basically you look at these little worms under a microscope, so they're only like half a millimeter. You know, they move around. And as like they get older and they're aging, they don't move as quickly. You know, they're kind of slower, a little more decrepit. But anyways, you give them this amyloid beta.

And after like a couple of days, they become paralyzed where they're like laying in their little petri dish plate on the E. coli food you're giving them. And they kind of just move around just to feed like their nose just moving around. And so when we would give them tons of heat shock proteins in addition to the amyloid, totally reversed it like completely. Like they would move around and be young. So anyways, heat shock proteins play a role in like neurodegenerative disease also some links to like improving um depression in animal studies but uh can you measure heat shock so heat shock proteins in the bath versus yeah so that's been done so the sauna i know of one study where people that sat in a 163-degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 minutes had heat shock proteins. Their levels were 50% higher over baseline, which is great.

And that usually – like animal studies show that they can stay elevated for like 48 hours after that. There's a hot bath study where they also elevated – it wasn't quite as high, but it was like, you know, 40 or so percent higher than baseline levels. And it was 104 degrees. But this study, instead of doing it from the shoulders down where I told you about the depression, it was like only 20, 30 minutes. It was like from the waist down. So they had to stay in there for an hour. It's like a jacuzzi, you know, where you're sitting there from the waist down and like that's hot. Like staying in 104, that's pretty hot.

But heat shock proteins did increase. So I think, you know, for people that don't have access to a sauna, that hot baths absolutely are a good modality for heat stress. And I used it for a long time. Like I said, I just got a sauna. Like I've made a career about talking about saunas, you know, and I just got one like last month. So like I understand what it's like to not have a sauna and to have to use hot baths. But I was also using the gym saunas. But right now it's like there's no gyms that are open.

So hot baths are like the only really choice if you don't have a hot sauna, a home sauna. What about cold shock proteins? if you don't have a hot sauna, a home sauna. What about cold shock proteins? And I mean, how much difference is it between taking a really cold shower, ice bath versus something like cryotherapy? Like the place that I took you to. Yeah, so I mean, there's differences in,

I mean, so it depends on how long you're staying in a cold, you know, water, like cold shower, like actually being submerged, like from like, if you're staying in a cold, you know, water, like cold shower, like actually being submerged, like from like if you're like in the ocean or something or a lake and you're like from your shoulders down, like that's probably much more powerful than just having to shower on. But by the way, the shower, like some days I'm like, what's the matter? This is not cold at all. You know, it's just so variable. Well, you live in Southern California. You live on the right. The border of Mexico yesterday.

So so so most of the time now I shower right after the sun. That's like my shower time now. And so like it's I do about six minutes and it's so easy for me. I totally have adapted and I'm not sure if I've just totally adapted or if it's just like my faucets doesn't get it just doesn't get cold that cold. Like I really doesn't. Today I took a cold shower from home and my sauna's not there. And I did it just because I wanted to have the mood effects,

the norepinephrine that's been shown to be increased. And it was much colder. But then again, it was a different shower. I'm not sure if it's because I didn't have the hot before, you know, beforehand. Like being hot and like getting in the cold shower, like it just feels really good. It's a nice shock.

But the cold shock, you were asking me cold shock proteins. That hasn't really been measured in humans. What is measured most of the time with cold shock is norepinephrine release. And norepinephrine in plasma, and there has been studies correlating norepinephrine in plasma upon cold exposure, norepinephrine release in plasma to in the brain, where it's involved with like mood and focus and attention. So there's been studies where like you could do a two minute cryo, whatever the average temperature, it's really cold.

Minus 240 is where we went. Something like that. Yeah. And then that could be compared to like, you know, a longer duration in 50 degree, you know, I think 50 degree Fahrenheit water or something like that. I don't remember the exact time, but, but it is comparable, but you have to stay in a longer duration. So some people prefer ice baths. Some athletes prefer the ice bath versus cryotherapy, even though it's, it's probably more painful because it lasts a lot longer.

Have you done those ice baths? Oh, I've done it. I've only done the cryo. So I've, have you ever done a cold shower after your sauna? Yes. Do you like it? I like it a lot. I like it particularly after hot yoga. After hot yoga. Yeah, after hot yoga, especially in the winter when it's actually cold,

the water's cold, that's when I love it. There's something mood enhancing. I mean, these things also affect the immune system, by the way, which is also very relevant, both cold and hot. They both have been shown to increase lymphocyte numbers and also like other myeloid cells and stuff in people. But, but like, there's something like I've done the sauna and then gone into an ice bath. And then, you know, it's just really, it's hard. It's cold. I mean, you feel good, but man, you know, I think just like the guy's house I was doing

it, I was trying to impress him. So, you know, I'm hardcore. I could do this. But it was pretty intense. I do eventually want to get some kind of like, they have those like, those baths that you can like regulate, like regulate the water temperature. Yeah, there's ones that you plug in and they're not ice baths at all. They just cool the water. That's just too much work.

Ice and baths. We wanted to get one here. We're probably going to wind up doing that. Get one here. You should. I have two showers and the shower next to the sauna is kind of useless. So who uses the sauna here, Jamie? Just me. You don't use the sauna here? He uses it occasionally. I also had a gym I was going to.

You do use the sauna though, right? Yeah. Yeah. I use it every day. I usually use it at home, but sometimes I use it here when I, like right after workouts. Like if I work out, I try to get a workout here before, you know, like before I do podcasts and I'll time it so I have an extra hour so I can get in the sauna. That's awesome.

Yeah. It makes a big difference for me. But I also just I think it might be a little too much before. Like I'm always trying to regulate how much activity I do with whether or not I'm going to be exhausted when I do a podcast. Because I used to do yoga and then I would come out. I would get out of yoga at 11 or at 1030 and I would do a podcast at 12. And I was like, whew, I think I better wait till 1. Because 90-minute yoga classes in 105 degrees is fucking rough. It's intense.

It's rough, yeah. I've only done Bikram a couple times. I would love to do it more. I loved it. Yeah. I really loved it. Well, I would wonder and I know there's there's supposedly some sort of Harvard study that's ongoing right now, measuring all sorts of markers in people that have done hot yoga, and whether or not it mimics

heat shock proteins that are created in the sauna. Because the thing is, like you are getting this incredible cardiovascular exercise because your heart's beating like crazy and you know you're not doing cardio per se but your heart rate goes gets jacked because of the heat and the stress and then on top of that even though it's only 105 degrees your body is heating up you're you're really sweating up a storm in there i mean it gets i've taken some friends there that have never experienced it before, and they're like, fucking yoga. Come on, bro. Yoga.

And then they get in there, and then I look over at them 15 minutes in, and they're like, fucking A. And I'm like, yeah. It is. I told you. It's not what you think it is. Because you're doing – like, yoga, even uncoupled from the heat – like, the hot part, yoga is also, like – it's pretty intense. Like, holding those positions and stuff. And like your heart rate does start to elevate.

I mean, it's like just from that alone, adding on the sauna, which mimics moderate physical activity that's been shown, absolutely mimics it. And then all the, you know, studies that have shown that on top of that, I mean, that's like, it's super intense. It's super intense. I mean, that's like, it's, it's, it's super intense. It's super intense. The really cool thing about, and I want to get my mom, um, I think once we move the sauna, like to our home where it's not like the office, like I want to people that are not people that are sedentary and people that are sedentary for whatever reason, maybe they're sedentary because they're disabled or maybe they're sedentary because they've had a lifetime of

being sedentary. And it's, it is just hard to get them motivated to go exercise. Like the sauna to me is like that's so important because it's giving these people a potential cardiovascular workout. No, it is. That's been shown. It's giving them a cardiovascular workout without having to force them to go for a run or get on a bike. You know, people think like when you tell them go sit in the sauna, they think of like a spa. Like, yeah, I want to go do that.

You get someone who's like, like my mom, who she's, she's sedentary, you know, she's, she's not like a physically active person and she needs to be. But like the sauna, that's, that's kind of my goal is to get her doing, and we'll have to start slowly because you have to adapt, you know, the heat shock proteins help with that as you, the more, the more times you're exposed to heat stress and the more adapted you are, like the heat shock proteins increase quicker. And so it's part of the adaptation process as well of, you know, being able to handle the heat stress. But like, I want to get her to do that because like any, you know, any cardiovascular improvement is going to help her mood. It's going to help her all-cause mortality.

That's been shown four to seven times a week, 40% lower all-cause mortality. Cardiovascular-related mortality is 50% lower. So I think that's a really cool thing about the sauna is that you can get people that are disabled, people that can't go for a run. I mean I still think exercise – I, it's just the best thing ever. Period. For everything. For everything. It's just going to overall improve the way you age, and that's going to make you more robust and resilient to anything.

Sauna, to me, there's so many benefits, but one of the big ones is that muscles feel better. They feel looser. They're not as sore. Like when I have hard workouts and I get in the sauna afterwards, I feel like my recovery is more rapid. Interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Because I don't do a lot of resistance training.

Shame on me. I don't have that same perspective. But there have been studies, at least where localized heat on people that had a limb immobilized. I don't remember what limb it was. But after a week, people that had the heat treatment, local heat treatment, had almost 40% less muscle atrophy. That's huge. Huge. In animal studies. And I remember I shared this animal study in an article I wrote years, years ago before the human study came out and like there were critics, well, it's animals and blah, blah, blah. You can't say it does this. And I would get on the mechanism and they showed it was heat shock proteins.

And there was all, you know, like, and I was so happy when that human study came out. So it's like, told you, told you, motherfucker. Like, that's what i wanted to say you know there's just a few of those those guys that you're just like you're like maybe i just i don't know like do a big comprehensive search the literature and understand things and you know don't have that exact study just yet but like i know that it's going to help with muscle atrophy so people love to dismiss things don't they yes they really do even if even if they're wrong, they just love to fixate on confirmation bias, a little possible potential things that might dismiss it. Instead of just being open-minded and going, hmm. I think that happens a lot, too, with social media.

Because, for example, if I share one study, I'll share an epidemiological study. And it's Twitter. I'm doing 140 characters or whatever the chain, I don't know what the characters are now, but I'm doing a small number of characters. And I'm just sharing one study. And if it happens to be a non-randomized controlled trial, then, you know, it's just correlation doesn't, you know, doesn't equal causation. It's like, sometimes I just share a story because one, I think it's interesting or two,

because I've read a bunch of, you know, think it's interesting, or two, because I've read a bunch of evidence surrounding this topic about all the other clinical evidence, all the genetic evidence, all the animal. And so I have a knowledge base here. And so I share a study that may be isolated in and of itself. It's not the strongest study. But, you know, it's like. You can't read the comments. That's the problem. You can't.

Like, you just can't. I can't. Someone else does it. It's like trying to strike up the comments you can't like you just can't i i can't someone else it's like trying to strike up a conversation in a porta potty because it affects me like i'm the kind of person where like i like to make people happy like it it bothers me when people are like unhappy it bothers me when people like well then don't go on twitter period because most of those people are unhappy or youtube no i mean it i i guess that's not really the case. I, for me, at least I, the bigger audience that for you, for sure. I mean, the bigger your audience is, the more you get that. This is what I tried to explain to a friend of mine who was on the

podcast, who read the comments and I go, do you just have to stop and think, okay, even if just 1% of all of my people that go from instagram like if you're reading the instagram comments one percent are assholes just one which is probably really conservative right if you get a room full of people there's a hundred people in the room what are the odds that one of them is going to be an asshole it's a hundred percent right that means there's 92,000 assholes. That's a lot. That's untenable. You can't manage that.

Right. 92,000 shitheads who have half-assed their whole life. And they want to just, they want to shoot people down, make people feel bad and just don't. Yeah. It's not worth it. I don't. And I feel for those people. I genuinely do. I feel for people that are in that state where they realize that they're not happy.

They're not happy with their own performance. They're not happy with their life. They're probably not happy with their relationship or their job. And they just want to spew nonsense and negative garbage. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem with not being able to – it's delicious, right? That is really delicious, yeah. Kill Cliff, 25 milligrams CBD.

All right. Mango. I got some other flavors too. The problem with that is you'll fixate on the one person that says the negative. Exactly. It's a natural human inclination. And that fixation for me keeps me up at night. Like when I lay down.

No, don't say that. But like I'm not, it doesn't happen much anymore because like I try like not to read. I've gotten so much better at it. But you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, no. In the early days of social media, before I got a handle on it, I'd be like, fuck, this is stress. It's like so taxing. Like you'd get into discussions with people.

Like, what am I doing? I think it's important to be critical. And I get like, you know, there are people that are really trying to like prove something. And there's all sorts of incentives for being hypercritical. Well, if you had rational people who are kind folks who have interesting viewpoints and they looked at something and they found something to be wrong with that and they handled it with grace and some sort of modicum of dignity and kindness, that would be great. Yeah. And there are those people too. Sure. Like if you were having a discussion with a good friend and the good friend was looking at something that you said and said, I disagree because of this.

Look, I have conversations with good friends all the time and even on the podcast where I disagree with them. But we handle it like friends. Right. But that's the problem with Twitter is that you don't see that person. You don't know them. You don't want to please them. You just want to please them you just want to be mean you know and that's what a lot of people are doing and they're just getting their

rocks off there because they're and i feel like now for a while during the pandemic when it started and the lockdown started people were nicer there was less social justice outrage there was less this but now it seems like as time's going on and people getting more frustrated and more desperate and more depressed because they're locked up it seems like it's ramped up it's hot i mean this is unprecedented right i mean it's horrible it is i i miss i miss my life before the pandemic i miss taking my son to the park i miss our our soccer classes and i mean like music classes i miss it it is hard my kids are having drive- by birthday parties where they drive by with fucking balloons and yell out the window,

happy birthday. Like fucking, they're never going to forget this. They're never going to forget how weird this is. They're doing all their classrooms on iPads. I'm like, this is so weird. See,

my son's at an age where he's, this is, he's not going to really remember. Well, I mean, depending, I, you know, I really think that I think things will age where he's not going to really remember. Well, I mean, depending. You know, I really think that things will start to get better.

Well, if it doesn't, I'm going to move to a place where it's better. Because I think the way this state is handling it is fucking terrible. They're treating us like we're infants. Some of the lists they've given you of proven activities and non-proven activities, that highlights it for me. Because the lists are, I don't know if you've seen the list.

I didn't even know that. Oh, pull it up, Jamie. They're so fucking stupid. Because you've got to realize these people that are writing these lists, these are not experts. These are bureaucrats. These are politicians. These are people that really have no business telling you what to do and what not to do.

They're fools. But they're in a position to influence millions and millions of people. So they have the ability to tell 40 million people what they can and can't do. Make that a little larger so I can read this. Look at this. Athletics, badminton, singles, throwing a baseball, softball, BMX riding, canoeing, singles, crabbing. You can go crabbing.

You'll find crabs. Cycling, exploring rock pools. Oh, can I? Can I explore rock pools? You fucks crabbing. You'll find crabs. Cycling. Exploring rock pools. Oh, can I? Can I explore rock pools? You fucks. Gardening. Not in groups. Golf.

Singles. Walking. No cart. Why? Why can't I take my cart? Who are you? Wow. Hiking trails.

Paths. Allowing distancing. Horse riding. Singles. Jogging and running. It gets grosser. Meditation. Oh, you can do outdoor photography?

I didn't know. I thought that was going to kill everybody. Picnics. Wait, what is, what's the top of this? What's this headline? What is this page? Approved outdoor activities. It gets worse.

For LA or for? For California. It gets worse. Scroll down. It gets so stupid towards the end. Oh, look. Soft martial arts. Tai Chi Kung. not in groups.

Chi Kung. They've listed the martial arts. Like, fuck off. Table tennis, singles, trail running, trampolining. Oh, can I get on a trampoline? Thanks. Didn't know. How about this one?

Watch the sunrise or sunset. How about wash the car? Oh, you can wash the car? Oh, great. That's crazy. I thought rocks were falling from the fucking sky and I couldn't wash the car. Jesus Christ. But that's what drives me bonkers.

In all cases, you should only do these activities alone or with members of your household. Make sure you keep six feet of distance between you and those outside your household you fucking have you been like doing comedy bits like have you been working like sorry writing no no no i've written anything no yeah i thought i should but i've been i've decided to just just

accept where this is and then when comedy clubs are about to open up then i'll start writing again but i'm just i'm just accepting where this is and is, and I want to have an honest take on it. I don't want to be manufacturing a take or trying to come up with some sort of a hot take on how I feel. But I want to know how I really feel about this. And how I really feel about this is very different now versus the way it was in March. Because in March I was concerned concerned and I was like, Jesus Christ, this could be terrible. Like we really have to stockpile food. We really have to make sure that we have water purification. We really have to be careful here. Now I'm like,

we've got to be careful of these fucking politicians. Now I'm in the place where you, you guys have to understand these people, people are starving. People don't have any money. You're telling people they can't go to work, but you're telling people they can go to work in some places. Like, why is it okay to work at Target, but it's not okay to work in a family business? Why is it okay? You know, let's figure out testing. Let's quarantine the people who are sick.

This strategy that you guys have, you're not adjusting and adapting. You're not adjusting and adapting to the numbers, the mortality numbers too, because they're way lower than they were before. Plus now we have this understanding of the asymptomatic people and how many people have tested positive that are asymptomatic. It's off the charts. It's somewhere in the range in many studies of 70 plus percent of people that get in contact with this are asymptomatic, but test positive for the disease.

That's crazy. Asymptomatic? Yes. So that's the thing. We've got to be careful about that. We've got to be careful about what you were saying earlier. Maybe 40 to 50 could be, like, there's probably a range. I have friends that are asymptomatic, went through the entire disease.

It's out of their system. They never felt it. Yeah, I have one friend who he did, he had tightness in his chest, but he actually was in, outside of Wuhan, like, in December. So he was like like he got it so he didn't know like at the time he just thought it was some like a little like whatever chest cold chest yeah but it was like just mostly just tightness he said it wasn't like you know well that's what's crazy about this it's so there's so many variables in terms of like how

people how people are affected by it and what goes wrong. Because there are so many variables. There's your genetics. There's your immune system. How is your immune system shaped? There's your diet that's included in it, your vitamin D status. You know, the other interesting thing, and there's been no studies with SARS-CoV-2, but there have been influenza studies showing that viral dose. It's really interesting studies that have been done where, I don't who volunteers for these studies but like sign me up to get influenza i

want to be right let's give me a full load of virus they somehow get people healthy people to to do that and there's been these studies where um people are like intranasal like they'll give them um various titers of influenza virus and they try the point of the studies to figure out what viral dose and they have like some measurement like in tissue culture number or whatever. And they found like to make people have symptoms. Right. And they found with influenza. I forgot which a or something. I think one of the strains was like they could do a certain dose like 10 to the seven in tissue culture or whatever units where 70% of the people would get like symptoms ranging from fever, you know, cough and all

the influenza, you know, flu symptoms. But then when they went down to from 10 to the 7, let's say they went down to 10 to the 5, only like 10% of people were getting symptoms. So like it's kind of interesting that viral dose at least with influenza and there's actually been some other studies i think measles also that it is it is a thing not something that you want to like go and experiment with yourself but um you know that's another possibility right for sure when you hear about nurses yes they're getting way more sick right because they're i mean that could be one reason right and their their actual job is to be around infected people and they're intubating these

people and they're they're they're doing right they're getting their respiratory droplets like oh yeah they're getting it right in their faces right when some of them they have poor ppe especially in the beginning when you're seeing these people that were like using makeshift masks and trying to. It's horrible. Yeah. I think with the masks, you know, for people, I mean, reopening the economy and, you know, some places have been more successful, you know, like, you know, even like Japan and stuff where, you know, the wearing the mask, like the cloth mask doesn't do much to prevent you from breathing in maybe a respiratory droplet or something or aerosol. Right. That, you know, but it will prevent you from spreading it.

Right. You know, so to a certain degree, like I get that people don't want to wear masks. Like it sucks. Like, you know, who wants to wear a mask? Who wants to wear a mask? But maybe to open up the economy again, like now, maybe like everyone could wear a mask if they're going to be inside around a bunch of people, grocery stores, theaters. It's certainly better than keeping the economy closed. It's better than keeping the economy closed.

I'll be willing to do it. It's not going to be forever. You know why it's not going to be forever? Because we're going to figure this stuff out. We are. Like it's already, we're already finding repurposed therapeutics, the monoclonal antibodies, people are working on that. That's going to be coming soon.urposed therapeutics the monoclonal antibodies people are working on that that's going to be coming soon what is that the monoclonal antibodies remember you were talking about the llama so the whole point of that is that they're identifying

antibodies that can neutralize the virus and they're going to grow them and manufacture them and give them to people and it'll help treat eventually they'll identify one that you know what kind of a timeline do you think they have for something like this oh i think that i think things are gonna i mean i think that these therapeutics can start the monoc, so like remdesivir has already been identified and there may start to identify other ones like the pancreatitis drug in Japan, camostat, something, there's the pepcid. I mean, there's a lot of different repurposing drugs that are being investigated, you know, and I think over the next couple of months, and then Regeneron's already doing one of these monoclonal antibodies, I think in the next couple of months, we'll have more therapeutics than we have right now.

That'll make things less scary. People will be less scared of getting sick because they'll have a better idea of, oh, we have some more things that can therapeutically treat this successively. Hopefully, people are going to start looking at the vitamin D. I really like that. I really hope that. If not, just I hope people are going to, you know, take their vitamin D or ask their doctor to take it, you know. But yeah, I think then a couple of months. So like, can you wear a mask for a couple of months? And like, here's why it's not going to work to just have the people that are vulnerable wear the mask. Because the cloth mask isn't going to prevent them from getting, you know, the aerosolized droplets if you're spreading it and asymptomatic, which it's been shown that if you are asymptomatic, that CDC study I mentioned

a while ago about how pre-symptomatic versus asymptomatic, after a week when they came back to measure the people again, they found that out of the 13, 10 of them actually did get symptoms. The other three that were asymptomatic had as much, they were spreading, I'm sorry, shedding as much virus that could make them, you know, basically contagious and, you know, basically able to transmit it to others. That's so strange. So the point is that I think that I know people don't want to wear masks. I have family members that like think it's like infringing their freedom, you know, and

like it does suck. And I know people are, I mean, the thing is like alsoing their freedom, you know, and like it, it does suck. And I know people are, I mean, the thing is like also children, I don't know how to tackle that issue because it's really hard. That's, that seems a little more difficult, but like adults, you know, you know, I think that if you're working, you want to open your, your, your restaurant back up, your, you know, like masks. I think that that seems like a good compromise, right?

Doesn't it? The children, it's real weird with this disease because some children are getting sick, but it's a very small number. But many children are getting in contact with this disease. And how many of them are asymptomatic but are spreading it? So there have been quite a few studies looking at children that are asymptomatic, children that have mild symptoms, and children that are symptomatic. And so

far, the studies have shown, for the most part, that children, even that are asymptomatic, are shedding as much virus as both children that are symptomatic and adults that are symptomatic, meaning they're able to transmit it.

They're shedding the virus. They're little sprinkler systems. They are. They're like notoriously. I used to never get sick. And then I became a mom. And I mean, I think first of all, the first year it hit me hard because I wasn't sleeping, because you have to like every three hours, you got to feed the baby.

That's a giant factor in your immune system. Oh, sleep is huge. We didn't talk about that. I know you've had Matt Walker on the podcast. I've had him. I mean, he's talked about it before. And lots of other researchers have studied this. Sleep is so important for immune function. I mean, so important. I mean, we're all not, no one's working because they're probably getting more sleep now. But they're also stressed out and they have anxiety, particularly if their bills are piling up and they have no income. That's true. It's awful. It's really awful.

It's awful. And it's awful for so many of these people that didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. They built a business and now that business is crushed. Man, it's terrible. I think you've got to give people the option. You've got to give people the option to go to work. You have to. You can't do this. Give them an option but wear a mask. Yeah, this is not the plague that we thought it was going to be

this is not the horrible tragedy that we thought it was not it's not it's definitely not like i'll agree with you on that like i think like a month and a half ago i mean i thought i was going to see body bags in the street like i was i was like this is like gonna be really bad i was terrified and it thankfully has not been that bad i mean new, New York City got hit pretty hard. But, you know, we've we have been on lockdown. So that has to be accounted for. You know, we have like to see in New York City, particularly when they were getting hit. You got to think this is New York City in January, which is January. It's wintertime. People are not going outdoors. I wonder how much the vitamin D deficiency varies dependent upon winter. So winter, it's been shown.

There's been tons of studies. Seasonal affective disorder. Tons of studies showing that vitamin D levels are much lower in the wintertime. It also correlates. There's been studies correlating it with seasonal affective disorder and all that. But yes, January, all those, vitamin D deficiency is lower for sure. But I would like to see a study on whether or not it varies between the East Coast and the

West Coast, because over here we do have all these sunny days, and people are outside far more often than they are in New York. Particularly in Southern California. Yeah, and they wear less clothes. They're wearing t-shirts, they're wearing shorts, you know, you have more skin exposed. Someone might have done that study. I would like to see that

study, because it makes sense. Look, and people are shittier over there. Maybe that's why they're shittier, you know more skin exposed. Someone might have done that study. I would like to see that study because it makes sense. Look, and people are shittier over there. Maybe that's why they're shittier. You know, I mean, they're cold and grumpy, I'm sure. But also maybe that is not feeling well because vitamin D deficiency plays a factor in that as well. And I would also like to see something done on whether or not that contributes to how many people get sick over there. Because when I lived on the East Coast, when I lived in New York, I got sick way more than I get sick out here. I'm for sure healthier, more cognizant, definitely more proactive.

I think all of those things play a role. Personally, I think that there's been enough evidence showing that vitamin D plays a role, particularly respiratory infections, psychosocial stress, like stress, cortisol, that dampens the immune system. like stress cortisol like that but dampens the immune system you know so when you are stressed you're you're you're basically you're not in a in a good situation to to fight off as you were mentioning with your friend when you're stressed out like your your immune system is is dampened and and you're you are more susceptible to illness for sure um and that's also that's also known uh you know so i think all those things and then the sleep yeah that's why it's so rough

with all these people stuck inside and stressed out you know all this the financial pressures that people are experiencing right now because of the lockdown yeah it's really it's so awful yeah it is horrible it's horrible and it's not getting better i hope i just hope i hope that you know we can reopen the economy in a very safe manner where we don't have like flare ups that, you know, we don't want to be set back to like shelter in place again, like full on, you know. I'm not going to do it again. I'm definitely not going to do it the way it was before. If it's the same disease, I don't think it's warranted. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think social distancing makes sense. Right. I think social distancing makes sense. I think sanitizing, making sure you're using hand sanitizer and cleanliness and all that good stuff. And if you want to wear a mask in public, that makes sense too. Okay, I get it. But masks inside, like inside when you're in places, I think like if you're going grocery shopping. Yes, sure.

But test people. How about that? Absolutely. Test people at work. I test people. How about that? Absolutely. Test people at work. I mean, I test everyone that comes in here. You told me you'd been tested and I just got tested again on Sunday. I tested and I'm clear. And I did that right when I got back from Jacksonville because I was like, look, I'm in Florida. Even though everybody's been tested, I'd like to get tested again.

Just for the fuck of it. Yeah, I'm hoping that the accuracy of the PCR test improves. I don't know if there's like a – but you mentioned one test that might be coming out. I hope that's – The saliva-based test. I don't – I'm not sure. What factor do you think – like when we're talking about saunas before, one of the things – this is a respiratory disease. And this is something where you're breathing in these particles.

And from what I understand, this is a vulnerable virus in terms of the temperature that it can survive in. Obviously, it's in your body. But if it's in your nostrils or if it's in your respiratory tract and you're breathing in that heated sauna air, Does that have any effect at all on viruses? I think, you know, that hasn't really been studied. You know, if the virus is like right in your nostrils, I don't know, maybe. But I think it's already like getting it's if it's already getting inside, you know, the the respiratory area, like your body is kind of maintaining homeostasis. So the heat that you're breathing in. Would you be able to kill some of it off that way though and reduce the viral load?

I don't. I think the— I know you don't want to just speculate. Well, no. I think what's actually—the sauna is actually just—it's improving your immune system. And I think that doing the sauna is making you more resilient against infection. Like that's been shown. There's been small trials showing that people doing a sauna,

I forgot the duration, but they were much less likely to come down with a common cold. But they had to be doing it for at least three months. It wasn't just something that you're mentioning at the time of getting it. Also, the respiratory illness connection, there have been correlation studies out of Finland showing that people actually, I think the study was men, only men that do use the sauna two to three times a week. They're 27 percent less likely to have pneumonia after correcting for. pneumonia after correcting for, and if they use the sauna 47 times a week, they're 41% less likely to come down with pneumonia after correcting for socioeconomic status, physical activity, cholesterol, lung, you know, smoking, COPD, like asthma, all those like, you know, lung disorders.

So, you know, the sauna does seem to be associated with lower incidence of pneumonia, but it's thought to be because of immune perturbations. And also there's the heat shock proteins and all those things like there's like an antioxidant effect in the lungs, things like that. So heat shock proteins also do have antiviral activity against at least influenza A. So the heat shock proteins directly can activate your innate immune system, but they also have antiviral activity against influenza virus. So, you know, I think that the heat stress in the sauna does help. Now, there's another study that did look at humidity and the effect of humidity on basically like the ability of your epithelial cells and your airway and nostrils and stuff to filter out particles and particulate matter and like viruses and stuff. And humidity actually made a big difference.

Like humidity, like the higher, the more humid, the better that was acting basically able to, you're able to like filter out stuff. Whereas dry, it was like. That makes sense. So it does make sense. But I don't, yeah, i just don't know the answer to your question i'm not sure i when the whole thing started when the lockdown started i was getting the sauna really hot then i was pouring a bunch of water on a nose breathing big long deep nose and it was burning yeah but i was doing it too i was like i'm you bitches. I'm killing all you dirty viruses. And I would take these long, deep nose.

And the whole inside of my nose would be like stinging and everything. But I was like, it's got to be killing these things. It feels like it's killing your nose though. But then, you know, I was talking to a doctor about it. And he's like, well, you know, I was like, would it? I was at Osterholm, right? Yeah. I was asking him, was it Osterholm or was it?

But it was a Hotez. Maybe. Yeah. And he was like, you wouldn't be able to breathe in that temperature. It wouldn't be hot enough to kill it. I'm like, hmm, maybe the way you do the sauna. Like, how are you doing the sauna? Like, you know, because people think about the sauna, they just think about sitting in there and breathing.

No, you're breathing. The steam is hot. I mean, it's burning. But the question is, is like, you know, there's homeostatic processes in these cells and stuff. And so is it actually. I was doing the sauna too hot at one point in time. I was doing it at 210 degrees because of crazy Laird. Laird Hamilton had me convinced. Oh, that's

nuts. Well, that guy's a savage. I did. I've done I haven't done I have like I've been to Rick Rubin's house and we've done like it was like 200 and something barrels on it. Well, he's a Laird Hamilton enthusiast as well. Laird, I talk but like I was about to like go to one of his

I was like literally going to get on a plane and go to Kauai and I'm like, Laird, I'm doing this XPT thing. I'm bringing my son. We're going to all like make a trip. And this, it was happening in March. Oh, right when it all went down. I was like, okay, one day, one day Laird will do it. One day we'll do it.

So he gets in over 200 degrees with a fucking airdyne bike with oven mitts on. This crazy asshole is riding an airdyne machine and i say crazy asshole with all due respect because i love the guy but he's riding an airdyne machine in a fucking sauna i'm like bro i so i did that 200 i i bet you it was the same because they like do the same protocol like and this was like 210 or 220 it was so hot like like like i i was i was like on some kind of mind-altering drug like i was like and i think that's the point with those guys it's the other thing that happens is and then we'd go into this ice bath and there's like this bath right outside and we're like did all this ice and like i said i was like trying to impress rick so i was like

staying in the ice bath as long as i could. You know, got to think I'm cool. So I get back into the sauna and like getting back into this like 210 or 20 degree sauna. And you feel like it's like room temperature because you were just in this ice bath. It's the weirdest feeling. It's really weird. And then you do that. Like we did it like three or four times. I don't remember.

But I was like, I started out the conversation. I was like, he tried proteins and I was like talking science. And at the end of the conversation, I was just spilling everything. I was like, I was just telling them all those. It was just kind of you open up basically. What were you saying? I don't remember, but i wasn't talking science one day we're all gonna die and then the sun's gonna explode and it's gonna create carbon it's

gonna create more life forms yeah i think i think uh gabby gabby uh laird's wife um she she has a podcast early she did i don't know if she still does it's called like the truth barrel or something it was at one time i don't know if the names changed or not but i thought that was so awesome because she named it after like the sauna because the truth comes out you just start talking like yeah you just start you know it's intense there's my eye watering but anyways 210 degrees i was finding that it was burning my throat and i think i was doing it was finding that it was burning my throat. And I think I was doing it too often, too. It was burning my ears and my. So we were it was dry for us. So I wasn't I wasn't experiencing that as much.

But I had to, like, get on the floor because, like, I felt like my hair was going to fall out. Like it was burnt. You know, it was just so hot. So how long he gave me a hat. So I don't remember. We were I mean, I was like trying to like. So what is the benefit of it being that hot though? Is there any benefit to that over 180?

Oh, well, I mean, I think that you could just stay in for. So the, so the thing, so the thing is, is that like with most of the studies that have been done looking at the benefits on cardiovascular health and all, you know, cause mortality. It's quite a bit lower. It's like 20 minutes at 174 degrees. But, you know, if you're at 210, you can't stay in there for 25 minutes or 20 minutes. You can though. I mean, I guess eventually you adapt.

That's what I was doing. We were in there. I was in there for I don't know how long and then I'd go in the ice back and then go back in there. But I would get out and I would collapse. You were actually in there for 20 minutes? Oh, yeah. At 210 degrees.

And I would get out and I would go out to the mats out there and just collapse. Yeah. That sounds like too much. It felt like too much. Do you do like electrolyte replenishment? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah.

I take liquid IV actually. Oh, okay. Yeah. Liquid IV is a great electrolyte supplement that I take. You know what I found? It works. Popcorn. Popcorn.

Why? I'm just kidding. Sodium. It's like my cheat. I love popcorn. I love popcorn, too. But, boy, I wear a continuous glucose monitor. That thing will go to, like, 165, like just from like,

you know, just from the corn, just from the popcorn. They're like, and I'm typically like, you know, I'm typically like my, my meals that are like,

you know, low carb, like I usually like, I eat more like a paleo ish diet, you know? So it's like meat and vegetables. Like, you know,

I don't, my meals don't get me over a hundred for sure. Most of the time. Popcorn. Unless I'm doing like popcorn. Yeah. Popcorn will it hard. Unless I'm doing like popcorn. Yeah. Popcorn will spike it really bad. Certain things will spike it worse than others.

But that popcorn, it sure tastes good. It's a good electrolyte, I guess, with the sodium, salt. It's so good with salt and butter, right? Oh, man. It's so delicious. Who figured out that's the perfect food for movies? We can only eat it in our office, though, because we have a two and a half year old. And it's like a big choke.

It's like the number one choking. Popcorn is like the number one choking. Oh, I can only imagine, right? The kernels and everything. Yeah. Yeah. I choke on it sometimes. Yeah.

The thing about the sauna at 210 degrees, too, one of the things that was happening to me, I was just getting headaches. And my throat was burning. I was coughing a lot. And I was like, I think I'm fucking up the actual tissue in my throat. Oh, man. Because when you cook a brisket, you cook a brisket at like 210. That's nuts. 220.

The headaches, I think, is a sign that you've pushed it too hard. Yeah, I was doing a lot too. That's intense. 20 minutes in 210. Well, I got addicted to it. I get addicted sometimes to things that are really hard to do. Like just like, so in my mind, I'm like, because it's so hard to stay in there for 20 minutes at 210 degrees.

I mean, it hurts. Everything hurts. Your skin hurts. Your toes hurt. Like it hurts. everything hurts your skin hurts your toes hurt like it hurts and then so then the next day I would like look forward to doing it to see if I could do it easier again and then I'm like in this weird loop that my own brain creates which is really bad that I'm very addicted to trying to conquer things yeah I'm a bit that way yeah so that was the thing and then but then I'm a bit that way. Yeah, so that was the thing. But then I took a step back.

I was like, I think I'm fucking myself up here. 180, 180 is great. I like 180 Fahrenheit for sure. Have I told you my xylitol story? I wanted to tell you this. Do you chew gum? I know you do. I remember after show, you chew gum, right?

Sure. Do you use xylitol gum? I don't think so. Oh my God, you have to do it. Really? What is so good about xylitol? So I'm going to tell you my story. Xylitol is i don't think so oh my god you have to do it okay really what is so good about that i'm gonna tell you my story xylitol is it's like a xylitol is from birch it's from the birch plant we were just talking about it's the natural it's naturally found in plants so

it's that birch you know what they're whipping it's from that plant it um yes it is used as a like if you're eating it you know i think it could cause like like the erythritol kind of thing effect where it's like too much GI distress. But when you're chewing gum or using toothpaste, many studies have shown that it kills anaerobic bacteria like streptococcus mutans that cause cavities and dental decay. So here's my story. Like multiple studies in humans showing this. It's like a big deal. So I went to – this is before I was, before I had my son, um, I went to the dentist and my dentist is really, he's great. And he did an x-ray, we were doing a cleaning, you know,

mental hygiene thing. And, and he comes back and he's like, you've got two cavities. And I was like, how the hell do I have cavities? I don't even need sugar. Like, you know, I've just, I've got like a bad oral microbiome or something that I've just for four years. I don't know. I shouldn't have cavities because I don't eat sugar. But anyways, I had so because you have two cavities, they're at the point of no return where, you know, like you there. I guess they penetrate the enamel a certain amount and they're like, you have to you have to like get them out. And so the way I am is I always like to like look into everything before I do anything. It's like, okay, this is not my field. I understand. I told him, I'm like, I'm going to

do some reading research and see if I can find, you know, if there's any, you know, possibility that I don't have to like get a filling. Right. And he's like, okay, well, if you find anything, please send it my way. So, so then I found out I was pregnant and I so I was like, okay, well, I can't go back to the dentist. And at that point, I was like looking through everything, all my toiletries and everything. I'm like, what do I have to get rid of? What's in there that could be harmful? And so I was like, fluoride, like in my toothpaste. So I was like, I don't want to use fluoride toothpaste anymore.

And these stories are going to connect. But so fluoride has been shown. A lot of people are worried about the effects on the brain. And the only solid evidence I could find on negative effects of fluoride on the brain are in utero, meaning pregnant women and, you know, the effects on babies. And I don't know if toothpaste has enough to even do anything. But in my mind, I was like, nope, getting rid of the fluoride. You know, I got a I got a water filter that got rid of the fluoride in the water, and I was doing all that. So I came across this xylitol toothpaste. And I was like, what is this xylitol toothpaste?

So I started doing research on xylitol while I was looking for alternatives. Because I was like, Tom's the main. I can't use that crap. I've tried it before. So gross. It's like my teeth get dirtier. I hate that stuff. It tastes so terrible.

It makes your breath smell worse. It does. Anyway, so I was like, I've got to find something other than Thompson, Maine. So I came across this xylitol stuff. So I started doing research and then I found all these studies. And not only did I find studies that like it, you know, basically kills these bacteria that cause cavities, the S-mutans. Pregnant women that chew xylitol gum, by the way, the studies were with gum, not the toothpaste. The people were chewing this gum.

And pregnant women, like if they were like six months pregnant, the study started at six months, and they chewed this xylitol gum all the way up until anywhere between the child, you know, the baby being six months. And there were some studies that went out like a year. The child, you know, the baby being six months. And there were some studies that went out like a year. And then they met the researchers measured the oral bacteria of the toddlers. And then they measured in multiple years out as they became children. And the mothers chewing it, chewing the gum, it lowered the incidence of the S-mutans in the children. Because, you know, mothers kiss their kids and you transfer oral bacteria.

And so they're like they're chewing the xylitol gum had a positive effect on the child's oral microbiome. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. I was like I gave myself TMJ like I chewed so much xylitol gum while I was pregnant. And like I still like to this day, I chew. I have some with me right now. But TMJ is. Am I saying the right thing? Like, it was like popping. My jaw was, I was eating a lot of sauteed kale and chewing a lot of xylitol gum when

I was pregnant. And so, but it totally fixed itself, thankfully. So anyways, a year goes by, I have my son. Eventually I'm like, okay, I got to go back to the dentist because, you know, pregnancy makes your teeth worse. There's like all this stuff about you bleeding. Your gums bleed. There's like there's some kind of term where like women get like what's that?

Periodontitis or gingivitis. One of those two. It's bad. Anyways, so I go back to the dentist. We do the x-rays and I'm like, oh, you're going to tell me about the stupid cavities and I haven't done the research. You know, and he goes, he comes in and he goes, I've never seen this before, but your cavities are gone. And he shows the x-rays and he shows me before and after he's like, they're totally gone. And, and I was like, that's amazing.

I was like, is it the pregnancy? And he's like, no, he's like, we get women coming in here after, and it's like worse. And I said, the only thing that I did that I could think of is like my obsessive xylitol gum chewing, which I still do. And the fact that it does decrease the, you know, I don't know how it would affect an already formed cavity, but my cavities are gone. So my doctor, my dentist is great because he like, you know, any dentist could just be like, nope, they're still there. Like, I don't know what the x-ray is supposed because he like, you know, any dentist could just be like, nope, they're still there.

Like, I don't know what the x-ray is supposed to look like. So I feel like he's a trustworthy guy. I like that. But isn't that crazy? You have to worry about shifty dentists. Yeah, but you do. Anyone, right? Right.

So that is crazy. So the xylitol gum somehow. So you think that what it did was affect your, the microbiome of your mouth. Oh, and it's showed, there's also studies showing that it decreases the incidence of, I'm talking about Staphylococcus mutans because it's the only one I remember, but there's another one that causes dental decay, but it didn't affect any of the good bacteria in the mouth. Wow.

So, um, so I was like, and now I'm just like, it's all. Staphylococcus mutans, that's the same, is that the same family that you get from staph infections? No. No, different stuff? Yeah. Okay. But I mean, there's lots of different Staphylococcus, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. Oh, okay.

So it's a. So the xylitol gum, Joe, you need to get on it. It's really awesome. Like it's, I really think it's. We already are. That gum we've been chewing has allotol in it. Oh, the NeuroGum? I just talked about it.

Oh, okay. I've been chewing this NeuroGum. That is, it's gum with nootropics in it. Nootropics? Yes. Like plank. So I was like eating a bunch of ECG and Cocov via like capsules like the the Catechins and the drug hot chocolate for mine. What's in it?

L-theanine see I was looking for my own thing but I was out cuz that like helps calm me it's got a little bit of caffeine L-theanine and B vitamins. I fucking love it. I love it. I take it before I do kickboxing workouts I chew chew gum. I used to. I have mints too. I used to. Sorry, it was neuro? Yeah. Yeah, it has B6 and B12 also. That looks interesting. I used to take when I was doing long distance running.

I was running like eight to 10 miles a day. And I was doing that like, I was probably running about 50 miles a week, which is pretty good. This was when I was in my early 20s. I would like dose up on all these like b complex vitamins and I swear I would just I would have endurance just run oh for sure I don't know if it was like placebo or not but like b12 has a big impact on your ability to do work you think so oh yeah for sure I haven't done any research on it but I just know that I used to take them and I felt like a big effect. I don't know.

Yeah, B12 shots. You ever get a B12 shot? I did. So the intravenous vitamin C I got, I think it had B12 in it. If you're run down, B12 shots give you an awesome little boost. Yeah. But I haven't done like a specific B12 shot. This stuff's pretty good and I don't feel any like.

It's not going to get you high. I don't feel anything weird. No. Isn't that isn't CBD supposed to like also be like the calming one? It relieves anxiety. Yeah.

Yeah. You just got to get a good CBD like a good CBD that doesn't have THC because I have a few that I've tried from other companies. The tincture that I take

is from CBDMD and it doesn't get me high at all but I've had some from other companies where I'd have like three drop-offs full and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm high. Does it help your sleep? Yes. Or do you require THC for the sleep?

No. Different people have different results when it comes to CBD. And some people find that CBD with THC benefits them more and some people find that it's just the CBD itself. But CBDMD, the company that I use, what I really like is they have a bunch of muscle creams and like stuff that you rub on the outside of sore muscles. That stuff's fantastic.

It's really good. Penetrates into the skin and just really good at alleviating soreness. I had a, so like one of my old colleagues science colleagues was um telling me that like they were measuring some samples from like different cbd products and like like the majority of them didn't actually even have much cbd in them at all like there's just a lot of i mean you know this has been shown it is i mean this has been shown with vitamin vitamin you know vitamin supplements as well there's been so many studies showing like even vitamin D supplements, like it'll say it has 10,000 IU, but it only has like 6,000. Like there's been sampling where you like you go to like Walgreens or CVS or, you know, you're just whatever random place and grab the vitamin.

They don't have the concentration and isn't high. Also, those like echinacea things, like a lot of it's just clover leaf. Really? Like because it's not regulated. I mean, I don't think... Isn't echinacea kind of bullshit anyway? Like what does that do for you? You know, I haven't... That's supposed to jack up your immune system. That's what everybody

always told me that they were all sick all the time. The people that really... Well, because they were vegetarians and they were zinc deficient and taking echinacea. And B12 deficient too, right? Yeah. No, I know. I haven deficient and taking echinacea. And B12 deficient too, right? No, I know. I haven't looked into the echinacea. Someone asked me about the elderberry.

So I looked into that because I was like, is that like an echinacea thing? But there is some actual legitimate research. Elderberry has been shown in randomized controlled trials to affect the immune system and lower cold duration and stuff like that. Are you a fan of kombucha? Do you drink that at all? I'm a fan of kombucha. trials to like affect, you know, the immune system and lower cold duration and stuff like that, you know, so. Are you a fan of kombucha? Do you drink that at all? I'm a fan of kombucha. I used to drink, what is the one I, I drink the dark one, ginger lemon. Darn, I can't remember the name.

GTs? No, I used to, but then they're, they are sugar, the sugar in that one's too much. So the one that I drink is two grams per serving and there's two servings. So there's only four grams of sugar. The sugar though is what helps the fermentation and helps the fungus grow, right? I think the GT one that had like eight grams. So it was like twice as much. And the ginger lemon one, I like the ginger lemon a lot.

And I'm like, this one tastes better. The ginger lemon does? Yeah, the one that I'm getting. It's like, it's found at like Whole Foods Sprouts, and it's in a dark bottle. Does it have the same amount of active culture, though? That's the question. I don't know. Yeah.

It's in a dark bottle. You once told me dark bottle's better. Well, the dark bottle's better in kombucha because it doesn't ferment in the sun as well. The sun doesn't penetrate it. Okay. Almost like a UV protector. Gut microbiome health is important for immune function it really is like like that's another thing we're yeah i love kimchi oh yeah i

love that i eat the shit out of that stuff i love it do you so i what's the brand i get i buy it buy it from sprouts or whole food mother-in-law mother-in-law that's the one i get that's what i get we have some here yeah yeah. Yeah. I love that stuff. I'm a giant fan. It's so delicious too. And I love it with meat. Meat. Yeah.

Yeah. We've been like, we have a bunch of elk burger we ordered online. Ordered online? No, no, no, no. I'll give you some. Yeah, but I mean, I hadn't come here. While you're here. While you're here. I'm going to stock you up.

We were like you early on. We were just like, we bought freezers. I was like, I need the elk burger. I need all the organ meats. I need everything. I know, right? But I'm just so thankful that it's not as bad.

Right. I really am. Yeah, I'm thankful as well. But I think our government needs to make an adjustment. They need to recognize that it's not as bad

and start opening things up. But there's so many people that are just, the sky is falling. The sky is falling still. They're still saying it and they're still screaming from the rooftops. Like we can't, people are dying and like people are dying every day from everything. Well, like you said, testing too. I think that's going to make a big difference. And I think people will become less scared as these therapeutics do emerge, which they will. I'm sure. Absolutely.

But what I really wanted to talk to you, the reason why I wanted to bring you in here is this conversation that we just had to talk about what are the methods you can use to help boost your immune system, keep your body healthy. I think we kind of got it dialed in. So vitamin D seems to be very critical. Sauna, if you have it, if you don't, bath.'t bath vitamin c orally you need a big dose and it's still not going to have the same effect if you can do iv you don't need to do it but once a week anything else zinc zinc plus quercetin for your quercetin and then sleep sleep giant and microbiome health do you use anything to help you sleep in terms of like a meditation app or do you so i use melatonin okay why do you say it that way i used to not so i have a history of

night terrors and what does that mean well it's like when i when i'm stressed out particularly it flares up and it happens like when i'm i think when I'm shifting from one sleep stage to the next where I am asleep but somehow I wake up but I'm not awake and I can still – but I'm moving my body. And I think that someone's in the room and that they're going to come get me and I freak out and I scream. And it's happened where I scare Dan, of course. He's like in the middle of the sleep. And it happens earlier in my sleep cycle. So it's like, but I've, so I started doing, I started reading about this stuff and it's like, I don't want to like the treatments were like benzos.

And I'm like, hell no, I'm not going to take benzos. That's, you know, been shown to like cause dementia. Right. Yeah. So that stuff's terrible. Terrible. And also like, yes yes it's very addictive and like if you if you become addicted to it i mean it can like you can like go through serious like you can die

well jordan peterson just went through all this and literally had to go with benzos yes and went to russia to have some sort of crazy medical detox that's awful he's still suffering from it man he's not even ready to work yet. He's been fucked up for like a year. It's really bad. Wow. That sucks. Yeah. So I didn't want to do that. But there was, there was some studies showing that high dose melatonin, you know, more in the like 10 milligram range. Sorry, I'm taking nine milligrams a night and I totally stopped having them for the most part. Dan says, yeah, like I went through one episode where what happens when someone has a night terror is like,

um, if someone else in the bed that's sharing the bed with you, like tries to stop you or help, like, because I'm still asleep, I'm not aware that that's my husband doing that. And I really think someone's trying to get me. and so I just go into like crazy mode and I like I like somehow like crawled from our bedroom all the way out to the living room and by the time I woke up I mean I had bruised myself I was like how would I get out here you know like this was like the worst this was the worst that's ever happened to me so usually I just kind of scream and wake up and like I'm like like I think someone's gonna get me you know melatonin totally totally stopped it totally stops it um i measure i track my sleep as well and and i think that uh you know i don't know the sleep stage stuff how accurate that is i

think it's not very accurate but um duration is pretty accurate so so um what do you not think is accurate like telling me like how much time I'm in deep sleep versus REM or our ring. Oh, you don't think that's accurate? Um, I think that the, I don't think the sleep stage is accurate. Why is that? Because like, that's like, you have to like measure brainwave. Like it's measuring, it's, I'll tell you why. Because I've had multiple incidents when I was nursing my son back when I was nursing

my son where he was on a nursing pill. And I'm very relaxed, of course. I'm nursing him, right? I'm making oxytocin. And I'm, like, scrolling on my phone, reading. And it calculated me as being in REM sleep. And it happened more than once. There's other times.

So Dan and I don't – we don't have a TV in our room, bedroom. But when we go travel, we're in a hotel. We're in bed. So we're laying in bed watching a show. I'm like totally relaxed in bed and it's totally putting me as calculating me as asleep so I'm like you know you know it calculates heart rate and movement um and body temperature so you know I I like it I do I just I don't think that it's totally accurate in measuring my only real way to measure that is those little suction cup things you put on your head yeah I like it. I do. I just, I don't think that it's totally accurate in measuring my... Only real way to measure that is those little suction cup things you put on your head.

Yeah, right. I did a sleep study once because I have sleep apnea. You do? Yeah. So I had to do that. Do you do a CPAP or... No, I have a, I got a mouthpiece. A mouthpiece? It's amazing. Yeah. It's a mouthpiece that has a tongue depressor.

Can you tell me what it is? Because my father-in-law has apnea and like he there's a doctor Dr. Caropian he's a very wacky guy Am I supposed to write that down is that gonna if I look him up yeah you can find it Brian Caropian and he's in Tarzana yeah I'm pretty sure he's in Tarzana

he used to be out here well he was in Tarzana and then I think he might have moved to Sherman Oaks. Anyway, you'll find it. I'll find it. I'll find it. I'll send it to you. But anyway, he devised a mouthpiece that has like a little tongue depressor. And for me, my problem is my neck is very thick.

There it is. What is a full breath solution? CPAPalternative.com. Yeah. The idea is a lot full breath solution cpapalternative.com yeah it's um the idea is a lot of people have a problem with cpaps they it's uncomfortable you're wearing a mask over your face that's how i felt and so this mouthpiece a sleep apnea mouthpiece it sits in my mouth and the tongue depressor keeps my tongue from sliding back and closing my airway. Wow. Makes a big difference. Did you go in? Yes. So I was, okay, you did go in. Yeah, I went in. I had a sleep study done.

Wow. And it was bad. It's hard to sleep probably when you're in those, right? It is, but I did sleep, you know, because I was sleep deprived. That's what it looks like. So see, it sits in and that little tongue thing pushes down on your actual tongue. Does it have to get fit like a... Mm-hmm.

Yes. Like a... Okay. Yeah, you go in there and they fit. They do molds and stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It makes a big difference.

Wow. That's awesome. I'm going to totally... I've gone places and forgot it and I panic. I'm like, fuck. Yeah, I mean, like not being able to breathe. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So that's a huge thing. I thought I had that at first because I was like, am I just like freaking out because I'm like not getting enough oxygen or something? But they had me do a pulse oximeter thing. A lot of wrestlers and athletes, football players get it because your neck muscles get really big. And when your neck muscles get big, if you have a big tongue and I have a big tongue, when I lay down, it closes the airway. So my tongue slides back. I know it's associated with obesity. Yes. Yes. Well, they get fat. Yeah. Extra tissue. That's one of the ways that they,

there's operations that they do to try to alleviate it. And they just cut out some of the tissue inside your mouth. And then they also cut out your. You could avoid surgery. Exactly. So if you don't wear it. Because I wouldn't be able to talk for like a month. Right. If you don't wear it because i wouldn't be able to talk for like a month right if you don't wear it do you snore oh like crazy but when you wear it you don't snore i don't snore at all yeah your wife must love it she loves it yeah before it was off and i also choke i'd be like i can't breathe you know because i i'm my body's forcing to

adjust i remember i was on a plane once and there was this guy behind me, and he was kind of a heavy fellow. And he was really snoring loud. He was laying on his back and really snoring loud. And then he would go without breathing for multiple seconds, and I filmed him. And I told him when he woke up, I go, hey, man. I go, do you know you have sleep apnea? And he's like, no. I go, listen. I go, I have it too. I go, but you got to do something about it. I go, you hold your breath for long periods of time. He goes, really? I go, I'm going to show you.

Yeah. So I showed him, he's like, fuck. And I go, yeah, dude, this is really bad. It's associated with so many different things. It's associated with high blood pressure, heart attacks, the risk of all sorts of ailments. Plus, you're just not sleeping enough. You're not getting real sleep because you're constantly being woken up and shocked into this state of like. No, it's really bad. It's bad for you and it's bad for your spouse. Like my mother-in-law has to go. She goes into the guest room to sleep like after they go to bed because she can't sleep.

Like it's really bad. Do you have to do the sleep study to get the. Oh, man, I wanted to kill that guy. You have no idea. It was like, I could just stop him. Like I'm just,

yeah. It was like having someone that snores is like, you can't sleep. No, you can't. And I can't wear, my ears are like earplugs. First of all,

they're not comfortable for me. I have really tiny ear canals and I just like, I can't, some people can sleep with earplugs. Like I just can't. It's uncomfortable. I just can't. It's uncomfortable.

Yeah. Snoring is a real issue and it's usually an issue of, uh, you know, some sort of an impeded airway. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad I don't have that. But the night terror thing, I'm just, the melatonin's helped. So that's great.

Yeah. Anything else? Has anything else helped you? For sleeping? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I think that, that going, so basically like having a good circadian rhythm and like bright light exposure in the early morning, like it really does help. Like there was a time when I would, you know, like I lived in Oakland and I was just in

this dark little apartment and, you know, like it just wasn't really great for my circadian rhythm because I would wake up in the morning, especially like on weekends and stuff. Like, you know, there's like no light coming in. And I didn't I wasn't I didn't live in a place that was like I could just go outside and frolic. You know, right. So frolic and Oakland don't really go together. Well, but yeah, bright light exposure. Big, big.

It was like a huge thing. And the red light. that well. But yeah, bright light exposure, big, it was like a huge thing. And the red lights. So I have, I do the Phillips Hue where at like five o'clock, all the lights in our house go red. That makes a huge impact on my son and his sleep cycle. Like because children are really sensitive to light because they don't have like cataracts and stuff. And so the melatonin, they're like, you And so the melatonin is not being produced.

So if we go travel or go to my in-laws or something, and they have the lights on, I'm going around the house turning them all off, because I want my son to go to bed at a normal hour. Do you watch, if you're looking at your screens, do you use blue light blocking glasses? So I have all the apps and stuff. And most of the time, and I turn my iPhone screen like down and I have the black background and all that.

But no, I don't wear glasses. I just. Yeah, those are great. You should look into that. I might have to because when I actually get a chance to watch TV, like it doesn't happen much because right now my son falls asleep at like nine and he wakes up at six. And so like Jesus, I have to go to bed immediately after he does. So I'm like wondering when do I, when can I cut the nap out?

Like I'm Googling everything, you know, just starting to figure it all out. It's like, you know, you have to keep napping until they're three. I don't know. I got to like do some more reading because like,

it's not, that's not uniform. I know. My youngest didn't ever want to take naps. She's like, fuck off. Staying i know my uh youngest didn't never want to take naps she's like fuck off i'm staying awake oh my son doesn't want to take he doesn't want to sleep ever he wants to party all day every day man he's like it'll start to be he starts to like get a dusk and he's like it's still daytime it's still daytime and i'm like for a little bit it's gonna be nighttime soon what about if you get him uh active if he exercises yeah well it's we used to go to soccer class and

stuff and go to the park but it's hard uh with the shelter in place right now he's probably got a lot of pent-up energy so we've been doing like yeah so i've been trying to like take him you know like we do like hide and seek and run run run wear him out wear him out but you know, like we do like hide and seek and run, run, run, wear them out, but you know, I think, I think the bright light exposure for him, you know, taking him out in the morning is really important.

And now that like, cause we, you know, now, now I'm able to do that more. Like I feel safer. I like the, you know,

like, so, um, especially being outside, I don't, I'm not, not as concerned. So like,

I think that's really important from bright light exposure is just, there's just study after study showing it sets your circadian clock. Boom. It's like, okay, this is like the morning and your circadian clock starts. And then, you know, so you become sleepy when you're supposed to become sleepy as long as you're not in tons of bright light at night. But that's been probably the biggest thing. By the way, you know, what's actually, I was talking about my glucose monitor, my continuous glucose monitor.

We were talking about popcorn. You know, the biggest thing that really affected my glucose levels wasn't popcorn. It was actually lack of sleep. Really? Yeah. Big time effect. Like particularly if I wasn't exercising, like, like almost pre-diabetic level fasting blood glucose.

Like when this is, this is when my sleep was being disrupted when my son was younger. So I've been wearing my continuous glucose monitor for a year and a half, maybe two years now. How do you wear this? What does it look like? Mine's right here. Oh, you have a little patch that you wear all the time. You're not diabetic, right? No. Because I've seen a guy who wears one of those, but he's diabetic.

Yeah. Because I've seen a guy who wears one of those, but he's diabetic. Yeah. I mean, I'm wearing it because I'm sort of trying to understand how different foods, how different lifestyle changes like sleep. How long have you been wearing it? I got it probably right after the last time I was on here. Okay. Right.

Literally. So you just constantly wear it for years then? Yeah. It's been almost maybe two years. Almost two years. A year and a half but um i most of the time constantly wear it sometimes because it only it's like the sensor lasts for 10 days and i have to change it and sometimes i like forget and a couple days go by and then i start like eating the pomegranate because my son loves and i'm like i wonder what this is doing but the lack of sleep because he

would wake up like i would be getting interrupted multiple times at night like you know where it was like i don't know he was going through some developmental stage and and he would stand in his crib and it's like so i was i was getting woken up multiple times at night for like prolonged periods very very like fragmented sleep and i was nothing had changed with my diet and my blood glucose my my fasting blood glucose levels if I'm my exercise routines dialed in I'm not like shelter in place you know it's about you know mid 80s and so I was up like I was up to like when fasting blood glucose would get up sometimes to like if I wouldn't exercise like one i'm like wake up in the morning and i'm like 106 107 109 so wow and then big and it was

totally repeatable why is the lack of sleep causing there's so many studies published we did a video on it and like it's i mean it affects like the the insulin secretion sensitivity like all that stuff it's all being affected so it's one of the reasons why like, you know, shift workers, they like really are prone to type 2 diabetes. They really are. Makes sense. So sleep is so important. Those poor people. That has got to be one of the worst things for your body.

Nurses, like their doctors, the first responders. House workers. Anybody who's working that late shift. Dan had his appendix removed. Like he, so he had, um, it's this crazy story,

but you probably have to go. How crazy is it? Um, well, it's pretty crazy actually. So he had this appendix thing happen. We were visiting his parents in Memphis and it was like Christmas Eve. And so he had to go to the hospital.

He's like, it's bad. I need to go to the hospital. So we went to the hospital. They're like, yeah, you have appendicitis. But he didn't feel comfortable getting it removed there because there was just a bunch of factors. The doc wasn't his doctor, like, you know, all that stuff. So he got this antibiotic treatment. They're like sent him home. A couple of days later, he got some IV treatment and then it came back back like a couple months later or like a few months later back when we were home. But he was like all of a sudden, like the first time he had it, he was just like pain. I should go. Something's wrong. The second time he was like vomiting. And like, you know, you know, I didn't want to like I had my son was sleeping. It was like two in the morning. He woke me up. I didn't want to like, I had, my son was sleeping. It was like two in the morning. He woke me up.

So, you know, we called the first, I called the ambulance. I was just like, you know, he's vomiting. I don't know if it's ruptured, you know, because it could be serious. But anyways, these first, my whole point was the first responders, they came and they were just like, yeah, we don't ever sleep. Like, it's like, we don't ever sleep. It's just so awful for them. Terrible for you. So.

Yeah. Anybody who's working the late shift, God, that's gotta be so awful for them terrible for you so yeah anybody's working the late shift god that's gotta be so bad for you i used to uh deliver newspapers so every morning i was up at five o'clock in the morning and uh i was also doing comedy so i was going to bed really late at night and i was just always tired i just i would just i would be sitting here i just boom fall asleep that's awful, it was terrible. A lot of people are sleep deprived. A lot.

Yeah, a lot. Yeah, it's a huge factor. Yeah. Well, I think we covered a lot today. We got a lot in. The vitamin D information was so fascinating. All of it. I appreciate you very much.

You're always an awesome resource. You're awesome to talk to. Thanks so much for having me back on the podcast. My pleasure. Anytime. Tell people how to find you. It's FoundMyFitness. I have an iTunes podcast as well. I've called it FoundMyFitness. YouTube channel, FoundMyFitness.

And a website, FoundMyFitness. And FoundMyFitness Instagram, FoundMyFitness Twitter. That's right. Alright. Thank you, Rhonda. I appreciate you. Thanks, Joe. Bye, everybody. Woo-hoo. That was super fun.