The Joe Rogan Experience - #1510 - George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell

Episode Date: July 17, 2020

George Knapp is an author, speaker, and the chief investigative reporter at KLAS TV in Las Vegas, NV. Jeremy Corbell is a contemporary artist and documentary filmmaker.

First of all, George, pleasure to meet you. Joe, great to talk to you. Great to see you in person. Great to see you, too. And Jeremy, good to see you again, my friend. Hey, Joe, good to see you, man. We're doing this often. This is becoming a thing.

George, I think that you're probably one of the most important figures when it comes to journalism and UFOs. And when you broke the Bog Bazaar story, was that 1989? When was that? 1989. 89. 1989, I remember reading about it. I remember hearing about it. I remember watching clips on television

and watching countless Bob Lazar interviews. It all came out of you. I mean, did you think at that time, I mean, what was your thoughts about UFOs before you had met Bob Lazar? And how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story? It changed quite a bit. I had not really given it much thought at all. You know, probably the same level of curiosity as most people. You go about your life, you pay your bills, you go to work, you love your family,

and it's always out there somewhere. Hey, I wonder what the deal is on that, but had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987. Into the studio comes a guy named John Lear. And I had heard sort of a little bit about him. His family was famous. His dad developed the Learjet, the eight-track tape. John had run for the state senate, and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, KLAS-TV, because he had helped us break a really big story. And the story was the stealth fighter, the F-117. He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor, about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in Tonopah in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but

Ned broke that story. It went national. So John Lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be UFO documents. He plops them on Ned's desk and says, Ned, this is going to be the next biggest story, the biggest story in history. It's a UFO cover-up. Aliens are here. Technology has been recovered. Ned takes a look at it and says, I'm not doing this story.

If it was true, I'd already know about it. This is crazy. I'm eavesdropping, as I tend to do. I'm a curious person. So as he's going out, I said, Lear, let me take a look at this material. And I looked at it. I thought, well, this is kind of interesting. At the time, I was producing and hosting this little public affairs show, 30-minute interview show. It would air a Sunday morning at six o'clock. Nobody watches it. It would be interviewing a city councilman, a county commissioner. What the heck? I'll put Lear on there. And I let him go. And he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and recovered technology and a giant cover up. Some of the information sounded outrageous. Some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out suddenly the phone starts ringing off the hook i'm getting calls about people though who

was that guy what was the deal on that ufo stuff is it real i had him on again six months later the response was bigger had him on a third time with a guy named bill cooper i regret that um and he told him an even more elaborate conspiracy he He's the Behold the Pale Horse guy? Yes. Yeah, I read that book. And halfway through, I was like, what in the fuck is this? Yeah. He tied in the JFK assassination.

Everything. Bases on the moon. Aliens are there right now. He had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy. And he's going to tell the world about it. Then he's going to go away. Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger, and anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me. So we do this third show with Lear, and he

hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out at Area 51 and knows something about alien technology. That guy turns out to be Bob Lazar, but Lear didn't give me the name at that time. A couple months later, I am anchoring the 5 o'clock news on KLAS, and we have a nightly or evening interview segment, five-minute segment, live interview. Our guest doesn't show up, and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole, and I thought about Lear. So I called him up, not knowing what had been going on in Lazar's life or Lear's life. And I said, hey, is that UFO guy you told me about, is he around? Would he do an interview? Just turned out that Bob had been through the ringer and a lot of stuff going on in his life. He felt threatened. And he said, yes, we had to black out his face. We do this interview and he spills the basics of the story. I worked out there at a place called

S4. I saw nine flying saucers in an underground base. This is technology that came from somewhere else. I'm in fear for my life. Holy cow, the phones start ringing off the hook. My news director comes rushing in, the station manager. Is that for real? What's the deal on that? And we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand. We arranged to go meet Bob Lazar, my news director, Bob Stolol, and I that following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job. We spent a

couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking, holy shit, what if this is true? You know, this is really risky for us as journalists. It's risky for our personal reputations if it blows up in our faces and we do this story. And it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is KLAS is a jewel. It's always been a leader in Las Vegas, one of the best TV news operations in the country. We're putting a lot on the line. Well, look, we decide let's take our time. Let's look into this guy's story.

out on the line. Well, look, we decide, let's take our time. Let's look into this guy's story. And then in order to understand Lazar, we'd have to look at the bigger picture of UFOs. So I started a cram course on ufology, and I read everything. And I spent eight months like cramming for a final exam that never happened. I read everything. I interviewed people. That same year, MUFON had its international symposium in Las Vegas, and all the world's UFO people came right to me. I got to interview them, traveled around, went to Los Alamos. Lazar took us into the lab. We took cameras in there. He walked us around waving to people.

We didn't even have to stop for security. Took us into the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow. He knew his way around. We were allowed to take a camera in there. We put those stories together, put them on the air in November, and man, it just went through the roof. Every night of this nine-part series, the audience got bigger, phones ringing off the hook, people calling, giving us information. Suddenly, it's on something called Paranet, which was sort of a precursor to the Internet. And it was huge. And it changed my life for sure.

I had no idea that there were so many people out there interested in the topic. And I was hooked. And I really got hooked on Lazar not only because his story. Personally, you know, I was interested in him. We became friends. I saw what happened to him after that live interview and in the seven and a half months before we went and I revealed his identity. People were really messing with him. I mean, there were – you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then, breaking into his house, leaving the windows open, messing with things in

his home, breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head. And you think that was the government that was doing that? Yeah, I do. I think so. And then, so I had put out a call to people, hey, I want other people to come forward. This was before his identity was revealed, we should explain this. Yeah. I am actively seeking information from the public. If you ever worked at Area 51 or S4, you know anything about this, you're at Nellis Air Force Base, reach out to me. So I started getting calls and six people right in a row who had talked to me on the phone and offered to give me information were visited right after the call. One of them was a guy who

did tax returns for people at Nellis Air Force Base, and he had got to know these guys really well and got information about crashes. There was a guy who was a golf pro at Nellis who had gone on road trips with officers and told him about this weird stuff out at Area 51 that seemed to be from somewhere else. He gets visited and told to shut up. There was a lady who worked in the court system. A cop told me about her. And I talked to her on the phone. And she had worked at the court system. But before, she had worked for a company called Holmes and Narver, which is a defense contractor. And she said she sat in as a stenographer in these meetings and heard these conversations between the government contractors and Air Force officials about crashed saucers. And they would, after the meeting, they take the tape out of the typewriter

and destroy it and take all the notes. And she agreed to tell me the story. It was just a tiny piece of the story. The next day, she's visited by these two guys in suit. They tell her, look, you are still subject to your security clearance. I hope you know that. And then they said, we know you travel to L.A. to see your daughter, and we know she comes here. It's a big desert out there. It would be terrible if something happened to either one of you. This lady is scared shitless. She didn't make that stuff up.

So six people who had offered to give me information on the phone, one right after another get visited. And it made me mad. It also made me mad that dealing with, you know, trying to fill in pieces of Bob Lazar's life. I know there's some gaping holes. I know it better than anybody. I've had to deal with it for 31 years. But I always thought if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects in a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like S4 as somebody who thinks outside the box. Despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help them crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves. So I focused on Los Alamos. I knew he had been there. I talked to people who

remembered him from being there, but the lab kept telling me, no, no record of him. He's never here. And then I showed him, well, look, I've got the Los Alamos newspaper. It's a small town paper. There it is on the front page, a front page story. Bob Lazar, physicist, Mason facility, Los Alamos lab. It's a story about his jet car. Nope, still have no records of him. And then I found his name in the phone book from the era when he was there. He's in the lab phone book. He had been hired by a company called Kirkmeyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that. So great. I'll reach out to Kirkmeyer. They said, yeah, we hired him. Yeah, we've got records. Can I get it? Can I get his employment records that would show where he went to school, whatever information you guys had?

Yes. A couple weeks go by, nothing. A couple more weeks go by, I call him again. I start writing him. I've got a stack of letters that thick. It went on for two and a half years. And finally, by the end of it, they said he was never here. We don't have any records.

That pissed me off. It made me mad. And I think that that is really what got me hooked in the story is that I was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that. We should explain the Los Alamos thing because the Los Alamos thing coincided with him doing work at MIT, right? Is that correct? That's how he's explained it to me. doing work at MIT, right? Is that correct? That's how he's explained it to me. And the way he explained it to me, I don't think I'm at liberty to say what the project was, because the project, the way he was describing it, is essentially internationally illegal,

like what they were working on. And that's one of the reasons why he was saying, he explained what the project was. It sounded very feasible, also very evil. And then it was basically a weapon. And then he said that this was the reason why there was no actual record of him studying at MIT. It wasn't important that he got a degree. It was important that he understand the technical specifications of what they were attempting to accomplish. That's my understanding as well. And it's always been the most problematic part of his background. And it's where a lot of people in the Bob Lazar story, that's where they stop. But the thing is, when you listen to him talk and when he describes things,

it's very clear he's educated. Oh, he's a brilliant guy. But I had always told I've – Bob, you're my friend. I want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down. In those days, you go to a college like MIT or Caltech and get a degree. You've got to take classes in something other than science. I could not imagine Bob Lazar taking an English lit class to save his life. But he is a brilliant guy. I'll give you an example. In April, COVID thing is raging. My wife and I are staying at home. We're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort. I'm a little worried. They didn't know about contact, whether you can get it off of cardboard boxes or whatever. And I mentioned to Bob in a phone conversation, I'm thinking about buying one of these UV screener systems. He goes, wait a

second. Don't buy one. I think I've got the parts that I can make you one in my garage. And a week later it arrives, this thing, he's got it in his garage, handmade, this big scanner with these UV things that don't work. So he just whipped it up in his garage. I'll remind you, you got the scanner. I got a laser gun. You got a laser gun i did man it is super powerful so it's like a handheld toy that he retrofitted with a superpower so i'm like lighting shit on fire in my house so it looks like a handheld toy but it's actually a real laser it's a toy with full noise but he put a diode in there and it's super powerful it can light shit on fire my wife hates that so i got the laser gun you also got the

flamethrower though lazar made a flamethrower this is before your buddy elon made no comment yeah well it's a massive he made one he made a flamethrower massive yeah he's obviously a very intelligent man um when you listen to him talk there's no bullshitting going on when he talks about very when he talks about undeniable concrete things when it comes to science, when it comes to elements, when it comes to propulsion systems. He clearly knows what he's talking about. And the really confusing thing for people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years.

It really is the same story, and that's really hard to do. Even if you tell a true story, 31 years later, you get it screwed up a little story and that's really hard to do even if you tell a true story 31 years later you get it screwed up a little bit it's hard like when you're calling on 30 like if i had to remember things from 31 years ago that's like i'm one year in a stand-up comedy 31 years ago i don't remember it i barely i'm gonna tell you like oh yeah it was a sunday night and then my friend greg go actually it's wednesday okay all right it was wednesday who is the host you know we'll have what i don't know it's a blurry slideshow but bob has been remarkably consistent the only thing that he's vacillated on we varied a little bit is the whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien,

like a small figure, like whether or not they were trying to determine how large a creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts. Because the crafts were very small in terms of like for a human being. It was more like something that was built for a child. For a human being, it was more like something that was built for a child. And he walked by a window and looked inside. And in some of the earlier discussions of it, he believed that he might have seen an alien. But he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by, saw something. And, again, you know how the brain works in memory. You can really plant false memories.

Everybody wants to pretend their memory is so good. Memories are terrible. Well, Bob admitted from the beginning. Remember, with the first interview we did, I think it was June of 89. So it was a little after we did that live interview, but months before we went with his ID. And that was really, we recorded it in case something happened to him. He was afraid he was going to be killed. There were a lot of really weird things going on. And I was worried about it too. I wanted to get it on the it in case something happened to him. He was afraid he was going to be killed. There were a lot of really weird things going on. And I was worried about it, too. I wanted to get it on the record in case suddenly he disappeared.

So we recorded this long interview. And always he downplays stuff like that. That's an example. I saw something that was that size. I don't believe it was an alien. It was just a glimpse of me where they're messing with my head. He also admits that they did mess with his head. That he had to, they underwent some kind of hypnosis that they made him drink this weird green liquid. Probably LSD. Well, maybe. They said it was an

allergy test. But yeah, I mean, you know, to your point, just real quick is after 30 years, it's not that he changed his story. He's changed. So when I was interviewing him, you know, he cracked the book back open with me. It was like he was saying the science and technology is what I know. I had my hands on that. I can't attest to what I read in the documents. Yeah, I saw something for a brief millisecond through a fucking window, but I don't know what that was. So people have taken what he said and exaggerated it. Bob has always been skeptical of the things he didn't have his hands on. And I admire that. And he's changed as a human. As a human, he's matured. So now he's saying, OK, let me look at it rationally. I don't know

what I saw through that window. And I appreciate that. He's so straight. Yeah, he's very straight. You know, various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward. There are people who believe he just made it up. He was trying to make money or he wanted attention. There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there. Or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive. Bob would admit that he had no business being there, that they may be – that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things. Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not been able to duplicate. We should explain that a little bit.

The Los Alamos lab story was him. He put a jet engine on a Honda. And it was a functional jet car that he built himself. So he was a legitimate propulsion expert and, again, like a super science nerd. Like where he got his education is what's weird, right? I finally got an interview with the guy that wrote that article two weeks ago. So the guy, Terry English, finally, after all this time, he called me back three years late, you know what I mean?

We'll put him in the movie. And I said, look, here's the point. You said Bob Lazar was a physicist at Los Alamos. So how did you base that? You're writing a paper. And he goes, yeah. And it got picked up by AP News. He goes, if I had misrepresented that he was a physicist at Los Alamos, I would have been blackballed by everybody at Los Alamos. They take that very seriously. I would have been blackballed by everybody at Los Alamos. They take that very seriously. He was a physicist. I reported it.

AP News picked it up. They repeated it. Not word one from anybody saying he wasn't a physicist at Los Alamos. It's little things like that that, you know, nothing Bob has ever said. Have I found out? Yeah. This is a real hot rod. And he did the story because the car was badass when he fired it up.

When he has a history of this, he also made a hydrogen-powered Corvette later on. Yeah, he's a wizard. He's a very smart guy. You know, he will admit to you that maybe he was picked for the job. They figured, all right, in case he blabs, we can discredit this guy like that. When we're done with him, there's things in his background. He likes to blow things up. He likes explosives. He had a pirate flag on his house at the time that I first met him.

He liked machine guns. He had an illegal firework show that would go out in the desert every year that became a world-class event. He got into some legal trouble after he had worked out there. So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him. But the people who still maintain that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there. Whoever came up with that idea should be fired because as a result of Bob coming forward with that story, Area 51 is now known all over the world. And I'm sorry, but the Bob Lazar version of that tale is the one that prevailed. It's known everywhere. It's been in movies and books and TV shows. It's launched

a thousand different products like the hat, the Las Vegas 51s. Our AAA baseball team became the 51s because of the Lazar story. The E.T. Highway is created and christened by our governor. You know, that story, that version that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not. And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there. Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there. Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there. Every major news organization in the world, after giving me nothing but grief, has made a beaten a path to

Area 51's door. All of them, they have all done it. And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into. Yeah. And that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response. There were so many people that I talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit. They call me up and go, hey, man, I'm starting to believe this is real.

And I'm like, you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the Commander Fravor interview where he talks about the Tic Tac UFO that they encountered off of San Diego. Because you're talking about a rock solid military man with no shenanigans in his background who is telling a story about a craft that they cannot explain doing things that defy physics in our understanding of propulsion systems and quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit have done a 180 and they're like fuck is this real and then the new york times story came out of course and the new york times is showing all these images of these UFOs and these things that they can't explain that all exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can't explain. And there's legitimate people, legitimate scientists now that are starting to take this into consideration and say, OK, if this is from Earth, then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible.

How did they do that? Is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of right when they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have them create this stuff? Or are we, in fact, encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology? But it's not outside the realm of possibility. We're here. We're here sending videos through our phones to each other. You know, we're talking to people. to people. It's being relayed through the sky. We're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly from these servers. I mean, just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947. to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947.

From 1947 to 2020, in terms of the universe, is not even a half of a blink of an eye. And then, boom, things have changed so radically. It's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us. Yes, so that's one of the big things. Getting Commander Fravor in that room with Bob was so cool because Bob talks to whoever he's talking with. He helps you understand what he's saying. He can go into high specified detail on stuff, but typically he's just talking to whoever's there.

When I got him in front of Commander Fravor, all of us and Matt, we were all in the room. It was amazing because Commander Fravor saw it too. He saw something like Bob saw it. saw it too. He saw something like Bob saw it. And the way that the craft, the tic-tac moved, it cannot be something that we have because it was clearly gravitationally propelled. This is something they talk about. Commander Fravor saw it bouncing like a ping pong ball on the inside of a glass. The inertia, being able to go bum, bum, bum. And the coolest thing Bob said was, well, Commander Fravor, Dave, it could have been a subject to a time distortion. So you're seeing it one way.

And they started talking about gravity amplification. It was just so cool to see them talk without an audience. What the fuck did Commander Fravor see? And Bob was, it's cool that when he can be calm and chill like that and just talk to another human. And what's crazy is what Commander Fravor is describing is what Bob was describing the propulsion systems of 1989 they were working on. Straight up. It's the exact same thing even the way it turns sideways to move to move off. That's exactly how he's describing it. Yeah, that's the gimbal craft. You know, we have this video and everybody says oh, it it's this, it's that, it's another plane, an FAA team. Dude, I've talked with a dude at Boeing now who he serviced these pods that it was caught on the gimbal.

That thing is self-rotating. It is a saucer-shaped thing that is rotating mechanically against the wind. They all know that this has to be a gravity-propelled program. We understand the science that it takes to do it. We can't replicate it. Jeremy, pull that close to your face. Sorry, I always do that. It's okay.

Just have it right up to your face. We can't replicate it, right, with our material sciences, our best information at this time. We can't replicate this technology, but we do understand how it works fundamentally. Fundamentally, we just don't have the power to actually make it. The material science even, just the actual physical material science, the materials it's made out of, and that's what's been in the news now, metamaterials, that there are materials from craft that we have. George will talk about that.

But Lazar is parallel with what we're seeing today. Yeah, and what's also really bonkers is in 89, he was talking about element 115. It wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. So in 1989, he was talking about this is science fiction. He's making things up. In 2013, they actually were able to create for a brief moment an element 115, which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps

the propulsion system for this craft. It was always theorized, of course, element 115, but fabricating it was an achievement. But yeah, if you're talking about being a winner every time history writes itself, Bob, it's insane. He's batting 100%. 100%.

He knew there was a place called S4. There had been no articles about that, no mention. I looked for it. I called Nellis Air Force Base and asked them, do you have a place called S4 anywhere on the range? Yeah. In fact, we have more than one. I said, can you tell me where they are? No. Can you tell me what goes on there? No. Well, there was a facility at Papoose. I think it was built into the side of the mountain. And you can see the dirt road on the old satellite photos. Why were people going down there? And then, of course, the video. He goes out there with his friends when he thinks he's going to be killed or he's going to disappear in three weeks in a row. You've talked about it on this program. And they videotaped it. And all the witnesses who were there have verified it. And it was not over Area 51. It was over Papoose, which officially has no facility. Nothing has ever been there.

Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise. And it's been proven over the years. And he didn't know stuff that was disproven. He didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit that you go, like the William Cooper book, right? There's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about, whether William Cooper was just schizophrenic, whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things so you could discount the truth. I mean, that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information

is going to get leaked out and they want to somehow or another discredit it, they'll connect it to really loony stuff that is absolutely not true. And you'll say, where'd you get that information? Oh, I got it from Behold the Pale Horse. Oh, Christ. Did you read all the stuff in that book? Right? I mean, so there's that thought, but there's none of that with Bob.

With Bob, everything that he talked, it's so eerie. Every time you turn over a stone, I think I'm going to find, at first, that's how George and I met. I thought I was going to see these guys cooked it up. That was my first entry point in 2012. I thought they cooked it up. Every stone you turn over, to be clear what George just said, Bob always said there's a place called Site 4.

That was never mentioned anywhere at Papoose. He verified it in 1989 with head of public relations, who was a homie of his at Area 51. We then call 30 years later and they give us the funniest fucking answer trying to not talk about Site Force. He confirmed it. Every time he turned

over a stone man. Every time. Bob's proven right and it's annoying. What was the experiment that he did with Element 115 that you guys videotaped? Was that available online? Could someone watch that? No.

So it was called a cloud chamber test. So he had this stuff. I know people don't believe that it exists, and he never had any of it. They're welcome to believe it. But he had a piece of it. How big was the piece? The only time I ever saw it, it was in his lead shield round disc. And he had it for a while.

It was in an office. Was it because it's radioactive? I think it's stable. I don't think it's radioactive. That's how it was shipped to him. So it's in a lead disc. It was to protect it from bombardment because it will become unstable very quickly. That's how he says they used it in the craft.

So, yeah, he had it in a puck. Like a hockey puck looking? Yeah, like a metal sandwich. And it's lead. Yeah, yeah. So it's in this thing. Yeah, and I showed it. And I had it in the background in one of our stories, just sort of an inside joke.

It's sitting in there. But Bob used to keep it in front of a particle accelerator that he had built at his home. You know, every non-scientist builds a particle accelerator in their home. And he had it there when he thought he was going to be killed. It was sort of a defense mechanism for him. He had it right in front. All he had to do is flip a switch. And he thought it could explode. I think he meant to scare people from coming in and trying to take him out. But this cloud chamber test was the only time I think he ever took it out of this thing. And I got there right as the experiment ended, where they

had this little chamber and it bent light. Now, they showed me the video. I don't pretend to be a scientist. I don't try to be an expert on things I really don't know. But it looked to me like light was bending in this experiment, which it shouldn't be able to do It's a like a laser that bent I've seen some of this Jeremy has a little piece of it. I was able to find man this was a search so George from day one when I have it right now video on me it's in my movie right yeah, okay, so but Basically what happened is it's so annoying I'm like you guys have footage of this because Bob never filmed this to put out to the public. It was to show his friends, like taking them to the test site, show them the

saucers. It was so his friends didn't think he was fucking crazy. So they film it and lo and behold, they give it to George. It's in a Brown case. It's somewhere in his archives. I I've sorted through his whole damn house, man. I can't find this tape. So then I asked Bob, is there anywhere this could be anywhere else? This is important footage Bob And I find it sandwiched between two Golden Girls episodes on some tape He kind of recorded over so I got out to the public What 17 or 30 seconds of this cool down phase of the test is that online anywhere? It's it it's in my film. I can put it on right but is it online?

I got it. I found it in these old tapes. But you know how people take little things from movies and sometimes put it online. Oh, maybe somebody has. Could be. I'll post it, man. It's cool. It's cool. But Bob says he's so impressed with everything.

He's like, Jeremy, that doesn't show the cool part of the test. It's just the cool down period. And I'm like, well, it shows that you filmed this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115 so what i have in the film it's not definitive proof but it shows that they weren't lying that they filmed it george was there bob would just assume that that goes away that people not talk about it is this it yeah that's it that's it jamie's the best jamie wow so what's happening here explain this it. Jamie's the best. Jamie. Wow. So what's happening here? Explain. This looks like he's growing a plant or some shit.

Right. So this is why Bob was so unimpressed with what I found sandwiched in his personal home videos. That's the disc. That's the top of the disc with a cross on top. Yeah. So he was trying to show his friends. Like today, if you had a laser pointer. So here's the cloud.

You can look at it over there, Jeremy, if you don't want to turn around. Oh, got it. It's the cloud. You can look at it over there, Jeremy, if you don't want to turn around. Oh, got it. So if Bob had a laser pointer back then with the principles of the 115, which he did get out and he does not. Where's the 115 in this image? Inside of the clamshell, inside of the puck. So that's the surface.

We're looking at the surface of this clamshell. Yeah, that's the top of this thing. Yeah. And so he'd have it in there. Now, the whole sensitivity for him is his real-world implications. If he's telling the truth to us about it— I don't understand what I just saw, though. I didn't see anything.

You didn't see it bend. You don't see it— Replay that again, James? It's the only piece of the tape that still exists, but it's not the key part of that. All it shows, Joe, is that they filmed a home experiment back then. He demonstrated for his friends how light was bent by the material itself. I understand that, but I'm not seeing that here. You're not seeing it. This is the only piece

of the tape that still exists, but it's not this central piece. Was this in the film? Yeah, it was briefly. I didn't highlight it because it was like... I'm not seeing anything in this. This is what's confusing to me. This seems like nothing. Like nothing's going on at all. Right. That's the point, is that he has a long version. George, blame him. Yeah, it's my fault. But I understand, but why is this in the film then, if nothing's going on at all right that that's the point is that he has a long version george

blame him it's my fault but i understand but why is this in the film then if nothing's happening it was a splash over in it when he was talking about 115 he doesn't like how talking about how he got it out but it was like a easter egg jeremy wanted to demonstrate that it had been the recording did exist at one point but that's the only piece that's left of it i'm the guy who got the tape so you got a full tape i you just don't know where it is. I have no idea. Is it in your house somewhere? I doubt it.

I mean, I've looked. He's looked. I've looked. Where could it be? Dude, you should see his house. Joe, I looked for years, man. I went through, made him take and digitize all these tapes. I took hundreds of tapes and digitized them looking for this little two minutes.

That seems like a big deal, though. Yeah, it's a really big deal. How could you lose that? I mean, I've got thousands of tapes from that era, and I have saved them all, and I've moved them around, and then I use them in different productions. I can't find it. I know that that is very unsatisfactory for people, and I've been accused of making it up or lying or hiding it. It's actually very appropriate considering the history of this stuff. Yes.

It's kind of funny. Frustrating as fuck, man. Of course, but kind of funny. The aftermath of Bob coming forward, of course, it messed with his life in a big way. And he was not all that much of a – he was sort of a semi-reclus anyway. But the stuff that goes on here even 31 years later, you know what it's like. These fanboys, he's got people that got the Bob Lazar disease really bad, and they still deal with him. They spend their days now, all these years later, focusing on Bob.

Two weeks ago, somebody put something on Twitter. It was an interview. These guys had gone to New Mexico to find people that had worked with Lazar a long time ago and then tried to dig up dirt. Hey, do you remember working with Bob or you knew him back then? Yeah. Did he have teenagers working for him at his photo shop? Yeah. You ever seen anything weird with him and little girls?

No, the guy says. And then the interviewer says, well, we heard that he tried to solicit a 14-year-old girl to work at a brothel. And then they put this – the guy says, I don't know anything about that. They put this on Twitter with the headline, Bob Lazar solicited 14-year-old girl to go into prostitution. So who's doing this? Just some online trolls? People who've got it bad. And there are so many of them that every day they post something about Bob Lazar.

Really? Every day. Oh, my God, dude. Well, I think UFOs attract a certain percentage of schizophrenics. Totally. But this is like so horrible the way that his story – I mean they just – I've never seen it like this. I've never – I get it. Because I did a film on Bob, I get death threats because of Bob.

That's his life every day. You know, I had a military guy who I had asked years ago about disinformation. You know, do you guys have to seed disinformation out there to discredit the UFO story? He said, we don't have to plant anything. UFO people do it all to themselves. I mean, they're nuts. UFO people do it all to themselves. I mean, they're nuts. I got a PhD in ufology, in essence, by working on that story and then subsequent stories because the public had reacted in such a way. All right, I'm going to stick with it. But what you run into in the topic, it's no wonder that you've gone back and forth on it.

So have I. Questioning whether is this a good use of my time because there are so many of them that are absolutely nuts and psychopaths. And they make stuff up. They also make a living doing it. Jamie and I were watching Ancient Aliens the other day and we were laughing. We're like, what are the qualifications of being a UFO researcher? You don't have to have a degree. You have to be a bullshit artist who's willing to get on the History Channel and talk about ufos like literally you just have to know a few facts that you could spit out and some guys were clearly reading off of a script i'm like this has got to be the lowest bar for

like in terms of like what does your son do oh he's a scientific expert on the history channel amazing you know but what is he really? He's a fucking UFO researcher. Well, what does that mean? It just means he's a guy who's into UFOs who can string words together in an appropriate sentence that seems like he knows what he's talking about, and so they put him on TV.

And when I did that sci-fi show, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, I lost all my faith in UFO research. Yeah, yeah. And I brought it back because of your documentary is what brought it, and Dave Foley, because talking to Dave. Fucking love Dave. I love research. Yeah, yeah. And I brought it back because of your documentary is what brought it. And Dave Foley, because talking to Dave. Fucking love Dave.

I love Dave. Yeah. But he was so into it, man. I'm like, really? He's like, you got to look into this. You got to look into that. He's telling all these things. I'm like, all right, one more time.

Here we go. And then when I watched your documentary, I was like, holy shit. I'm so glad. And it really rekindled my thoughts about Bob Lazar because I remember being really interested in it in the 90s. kindled my thoughts about Bob Lazar because I remember being really interested in it in the 90s. The topic itself discourages serious inquiry by journalists, by scientists, because you have to wade through so much crap.

You know, 90, 95 percent of it is total crap or it is honest misidentifications of prosaic objects. But that 5 percent, it's really interesting. And that's why the government is now, you know, looking into it once again. Yeah, it is really weird to see the government looking into it openly that's what's strange like the fact that they're like the younger version of me would be like bracing myself for contact about like it's coming if they're talking to us about it now because my thought was always like they probably if ufos are real and aliens exist they have in contact, they probably don't think we can handle it. So they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work, go back to sleep, do what you got to do. Don't pay attention to this.

This is all nonsense. And that's what most people do. But when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this, but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain. And they're saying this just out in public in legitimate, recognized publications, newspapers, television shows. It's weird to see. Very weird for me. Now, it's 33 years that I've been chasing this, and I become – and I don't want to talk about me, but I mean I've become the UFO reporter whether I like it or not. I'm not the UFO reporter.

I'm a reporter who is interested in that. The UFO stories I've done in all that time, it's been a lot. But as a percentage of all the reports that I do, it's small. I'm a news guy. I chase bad guys mostly for the I-team. But those UFO stories have gone all over the world. The UFO field is so polluted with liars and exaggerators and fast buck artists and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas, to make money, to get attention. It takes 90 percent of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the hard

facts. And there aren't that many of them. And to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth. It's a task that is difficult. And I don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake, because it's not something you could do in a week. I remember saying to myself, this is how cocky I was in the beginning is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books and, boy, this field is a mess. But there is some good information in here. Give me six months and I'll have this figured out. Well, here's 33 years later. I know less than I did now.

I know I have a lot more facts in my head. But all the big questions, we don't have answers to them. I don't think anybody does. Who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested is in us, what the long-term agenda is. We don't know that. And I don't think anybody does. I've gone pretty far high up the food chain. As a career journalist, what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying, we are trying to investigate these reports. We know that there is something to them. These are real claims by real pilots, real scientists have reviewed these things, and they find them troubling.

It's a mix. The most immediate reaction is astonishment, because of all the years I'm chasing this, everywhere you go, you run into brick walls when dealing with the government. That's really what got my attention and where I wanted to focus because I can't go out and wait for UFOs to show up, although I've done that, but I wanted to follow the paper trail. The government has this whole big, long history of documents that they exchanged, reports, memos, incident reports about UFOs before the Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land. And they're very candid with each other. They're not that way anymore. They hide stuff. But back in those days, they were candid that this is from somewhere else. This is real. It's not fictitious.

We need to look into this. We got to make sure it's not Russians or Chinese. And we have to figure out who's got this technology because we don't. It's not ours. And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it, nope, we don't have any UFO reports, have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages. They have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time. So to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously, which I have known all along. Of course they have to study this. Unknown craft float over our nuclear missile bases, disarm the missiles. We have fighter jets go after them.

They leave them in the dust. They can fly circles around our best technology. They mess with nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, nuclear facilities like Los Alamos. It is a national security issue, and they have been paying attention to it. They just haven't been telling us. So for the New York Times to come out in December 2017 and say, yeah, there was a program, and yeah, they've been looking at UFOs. Oh, by the way, it's all done now. It's still a mixture of lies and some glimpses of truth. But I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see this much progress. The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject.

And I'll tell you, Joe, there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so. Did you see Trump on TV being interviewed by his son? Yeah. It was kind of hilarious. There's very interesting things. Very, very interesting. We're going to open Roswell. We're going to open Roswell.

I think he met Area 51. Yeah, well, he's barely paying attention. I think he has been briefed. Yeah. I think he has been briefed more than once. You know, I think because he watches Tucker Carlson, and Tucker's got UFO people on there once a month. Does he? Yeah, he's had for the last year, he's had UFO people once a month or so. Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon and people like that. And I thought that would, if anything, that would get Trump's attention because, you know, that's what he pays attention to. Right. That's hilarious. These stories about UFOs over nuclear bases and weapons

facilities and things along those lines, has that been substantiated? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So this happened in 1975. They called it the Northern Tier case. So we have a string of bases up by the Canadian border all the way across the U.S. from Maine to Montana, nuclear missile facilities. They were ready to go in the darkest days of the Cold War. Those missiles, ICBMs, are ready to go, aimed at Moscow and other places. And in 1975, 74 and 75, one after another, these bases were visited. They thought they were mystery helicopters or something, lights in the sky, right over the missiles. In a couple of cases, they disabled the missiles. If we had gone to war, we wouldn't have had those missiles being able to fire. There are some indications that the launch control codes were interfered with. And then

we scrambled jets. The military personnel had reported this up, and the things go away. We can't catch them. Whatever they were, it clearly is a threat to national security. Can I stop you for a second? Is there an official record of these encounters? Yes. And those documents, you can find them. Washington Post broke the story in the 70s. They had obtained some of these documents after Freedom of Information Act came forward. And then the most recent study, BAS, OSAP, that we could talk about, they also really focused on the northern tier cases.

And they looked up some of those guys. They found some of the nuclear missile officers and security personnel and interviewed them. And they told the story all over again. There's a guy named Robert Hastings. UFOs and nukes has been his specialty for the last 30 years. He wrote a book, made a film. It's chilling. Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the U.S., but in Russia. So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world. And one of the places I went twice was Russia. After the fall of the Soviet Union, it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us.

And I met a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs. He was getting ready to go back to Russia. He had been the national security advisor to Boris Yeltsin. He was a national security advisor to the Russian parliament. He had taught Russian cosmonauts how to spot American nuclear submarines from space. He was connected. So I had a beer with him at the suggestion of a U.S. congressman. And I said, hey, Nikolai, you ever hear any of your guys in Russia at high levels talk about UFOs? Now, can't really think that that doesn't ring a bell. We have another beer.

And he says, you know, I do have a guy at the KGB who told me that they had looked into it for a while. And I thought, well, they had just, the KGB had just released its Oswald files. I thought maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know, because they are a superpower. They have nuclear weapons. They would have seen the same things we've been seeing. So I went to Russia. We sent Nikolai over to, we've been seeing. So I went to Russia. We sent Nikolai over to, back to Moscow, gave him a stipend. And his instructions were, find people who are in a position to know, high up in the military or the government, who have never talked about this before. And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up. And then I went to Russia and met him

and interviewed him. And these were former military guys. There was a guy named Colonel Boris Sokolov, who was a goldmine of information. He told us about a previously unknown study, probably the biggest UFO study in the history of the world. For 10 years, from 78 to 88, the Russian military empire, every military unit in Russia, in their whole military global, if they saw any ball of light, anomalous aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB. And all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense. Colonel Sokolov was that desk. And they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before. He told me about 45 different incidents where Russian warplanes had chased UFOs,

couldn't catch them. Three of the instances, these UFOs shot them down. Two of those pilots died. And after that, he said, the order went out, look, if you see these things, don't mess with them. He said their study was for a very practical reason. These craft could do things that the Russians could not. And they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology. So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFOs work so they could have an advantage over us. I had to smuggle some of these documents back. If I had been caught with this stuff, because some of it was classified, if I'd been caught, I'd still be in a gulag somewhere. But I got it back. I shared it with some people. It eventually found its way into the U.S. government's

hands. And it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government, that they have always taken this seriously. And one of the incidents, I'm sorry, I made the long way around on that story, was an ICBM base in the Ukraine. Colonel Sokolov says that a giant UFO appeared over this base. These are missiles that are trained to go to New York and Los Angeles. They're very serious stuff there. It's a very secure facility. Giant UFO appears over this base. It splits into pieces, and then it melds back apart, and it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours. The base is on high alert. And all of a sudden, the nuclear control facilities lights up like a Christmas tree.

And whatever this thing was, it entered the launch control codes. The missiles were enabled. They start firing up. They're ready to go. And then poof, UFO goes away. The whole thing shuts down. It goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov said his team,

he and his team sent there to investigate it. They took the machines apart, could not figure out what it had done. And he told me on camera, we think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons, but we're not impressed. Same kind of thing happened here.

We don't like to admit it, but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen. Now, what is a bigger national security issue than that? Or like the Tic Tac. You've got a nuclear-powered carrier there and other warships around it. And you've got these strange radar sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S. This is an intruder. right off the coast of the U.S., this is an intruder. And even though these aliens,

whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our cities, you have to consider it a threat. That's the job of our Defense Department. They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there, and it's not ours. And I think that's what the program is going on right now. It's a legitimate national security issue. It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone. The TikTok craft or Tic Tac craft. Goddamn TikTok. Can't get away from that word. The Tic Tac craft that was spotted off San Diego, it performs something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of the water to 60,000 feet in how long? Less than a second, but there's actually more to it.

There was a craft. Remember, I was talking with Commander Fravor before this was public. Yeah. There was a craft under the water, too. The Tic Tac would drop from 60,000 feet is what they're saying, 60 to 80, but that's the scan volume of the SPY-1 radar. So everybody I've talked to said they were coming from above. They were coming from outer space, dropping down within a second and stopping on a dime and then making the movements Commander Fravor saw, like inside of a glass. Then he said to me in our first

talk ever, I'll never forget this because I'm talking to a fighter pilot and I got to talk fighter pilot. And he says to me, it noticed me. And I go, what do you mean it noticed you? And he says, as I was descending rapidly to engage it, it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror my movements, Came right up by me. And he says, faster than you can see. Like you can't even see a bullet leave a gun. No, it just, bam, shot off. He goes, we don't have anything like that.

I wish we did. We don't. Whatever propels that is not a reactionary propulsion system. Meaning it's not pushing something off the back to get it to go forward. Like everything else. Like fire and explosions. It's a field propulsion. Yeah.

Like anything else we know, you got to have something going back to go forward. Rockets. We're still using the same ones from back in the day. This thing instantaneously without effects of inertia can move. And that distortion, that's exactly how Bob described these things would work or do work in his opinion. So Commander Fravor got to see it. And these incursions, by the way, look, there's stuff George reports on. There's a lot he doesn't. As a filmmaker myself, people tell me stories all the time. These incursions, it's not a rarity. These are happening to this day. I just heard about one in Guam.

Incursions over high security airspace over our weapons systems. And in Guam, there was just recently an incursion. The Pantex facility with the igloos where we hold our nuclear weapons and stuff like that. There are incursions over these. So to George's point, the reason why maybe all of this is secret is not because we can't handle it. People flip out. Maybe we just want to make sure we fucking get this tech first because it's a game changer. Now let's talk about the people that have tried to debunk this and why they're off because they've made some debunking claims about some of these videos and about

the technology that was used to track these things. That's incorrect. Where they don't really understand what they're debunking. Right. So please explain that because that's one of the things that people are immediately going to go to. They're going to go, well, Mick West has already debunked it. And I've read the stuff that he says.

go to they're going to go well mick west has already debunked it and i've read the stuff that he says it's mental gymnastics to try to explain it the way he's explaining it without recognition of the fact these things were actively blocking radar these things were actively blocking tracking systems these were physical crafts this is not like a bird no or so like a lot of the wacky theories that he has are like i I wonder, you know, it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions. Very weird. Almost like someone wants him to do those. Sure.

I mean, look, it's so exciting that we're seeing something and the government saying, OK, these are UFOs. We have not identified them. They have propulsion techniques that we don't have. And we're not we're just talking and the government saying, OK, these are UFOs. We have not identified them. They have propulsion techniques that we don't have. And we're not – we're just talking about the videos. Let's talk about the debunking now. OK. Talk about the debunking and what his claims are in the debunking.

OK. So one that I recently like attacked because it was so ridiculous is he was saying that the Go Fast video, which is this object that goes along in a straight line, one of the three videos that was released. He said it was probably a bird. That was his first theory. Let's pull up the GoFast video. Yeah. I mean I recently went deep into talking with Boeing experts who work on these FLIR pods. They're telling me how they work, what they can capture.

Explain what a FLIR pod is. A forward-looking infrared. So basically on fighter planes, you have a camera. So here's the video. We're pulling it up right here. Sure, that's mounted. And it's essentially recording in thermal imagery.

These things are, this is not Instagram. These things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent spatial awareness and to be able to target, you know, enemy combatants. That's, this is not an iPhone, an Instagram. These are weapons for us. So out of the three videos, if we just look at this one, although I like the Tic Tac one with Commander Fravor and I like the gimbal one, those are just look at this one, although I like the Tic Tac one with Commander Fravor and I like the gimbal one. Those are awesome. This one gives us very little information, but the idea that this would be a bird, if you talk to anybody that uses these pods, you don't,

you can't pinpoint on a bird. You can't lock a weapon system on a freaking bird. Well, look how fast it's going too. Well, here's what's so interesting is everybody can debate speed. So this is where it's locked in on it freaking bird. Well, look how fast it's going too. Well, here's what's so interesting is everybody can debate speed. So this is where it's locked in on it. Right. So the weapon system is locked in on this thing and it's tracking it now. Right. And they got real excited when they locked it because they said boxed a moving target,

right? So here's the deal though. Out of anything I could say about this video, because there's not a lot of information in there, what I can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean now i looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information it was like 65 degrees what propulsion system so okay so a bird a bird is about a hundred and let's say five degrees like a seagull. Seagulls can go maybe 15 miles an hour. I don't know how fast they can go.

But they wouldn't be colder than the ocean. They'd be hypothermic and dead. It cannot be a bird because what we're seeing is a colder object than the surface of the water. That's why you're seeing it white. And how fast is it going? That's under debate. There's different... Interpretations?

Yeah. So I'll give you one interpretation about 240 miles an hour, some people say. And then they can argue, well, the fastest bird in a nosedive could go that fast. Back up. We have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight of the ocean. That immediately gets rid of the bird theory. Because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water. It cannot fly at that.

So that's the piece of information I would attack that debunking with. But this video, when you're watching that, if it is going 200 miles an hour, that's not outside of what's possible with spacecraft or aircraft or just planes. Right. But it's cold.

I understand that. That's pretty cool. But it is. No, it's very interesting. But it's not moving anywhere near as fast as the Tic Tac. No, no, no. This is just something because this is part, and George can tell you, this is part of a much bigger series of events. So like the gimbal craft itself, that's another debunking thing.

They said it's a plane banking away and you're seeing it through thermal First of all talk with the pilot not fucking so this is the gimbal Yeah, the gimbal pulling it up right now and how fast is this thing supposed to be going? You know the speed from what I recall wasn't registered on the on the radar It's not that it's going fast if you talk with the pilots it was Rotating it was rotating. It was spinning like a top end for like 11 hours without refueling. I mean, the thing was just sitting out there. This is an occurrence that happened over a course of many, many weeks. Now, when it rotates

like that, the debunking theory is that you're seeing a plane bank. So as if our military doesn't know what another plane is, other planes look very different when you see them through thermal. This thing was self-rotating. And I just did an interview. And how fast is this, or rather, how warm is this thing supposed to be? Is this supposed to actually be hot? I am unaware. Because you're looking at it through thermal, right? Yeah. I'm unaware of the specifics of that one when it comes to heat.

All I know is that it is self-actuating. It is not something that is a glare or flare of a heat signature making it look like it's turning. The actual craft is self-actuating. And what is that halo around it? That's just an artifact of the FLIR thermal. that halo around it. That's just an artifact of the FLIR thermal. It's not. The premise that the U.S. government would tell you, all right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly. Lou Elizondo is the guy that got them released. And then the U.S. government formally released them a couple of months ago. The idea that the U.S. government would release

it, the Pentagon says these are unidentified. And, you know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio. Our government does not tell members of Congress. The Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't. Yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't. And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they were forced to release it to begin with, suggests it really is unidentified. Why do you think they've addressed it? Why do you think that they have addressed the fact they're studying these things? Why not just continue denying it? I think they were forced to.

And some props to Tom DeLonge. I know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here, but he created an organization. Lou Elizondo, who ran that program, came forward and brought with him those videos. I saw them two days after Lou Elizondo stepped on a stage with Tom and said, I was in charge of the program. He and Chris Mellon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into the New York Times. That changed everything. As I said, the last two and a half years, everything has turned on its head. The New York Times covers the story.

The result is other media covered as well. They've been ignoring it forever, and that allowed people to keep these secrets. That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions. Two days after the story came out, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program that became AATIP. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who are now suddenly interested. I didn't know there was a program they're telling him. How do we learn more about this? It started a series of closed door briefings on Capitol Hill that continue to this day. The pilots, like Dave Fravor, were hauled before

Congress, first in front of the staff of the Senate Intelligence and then Senate Armed Services, and then the elected members, these senators who get briefed on it. And they were impressed, and they wanted more pilots to come in. So it's been going on for two and a half years. And two weeks ago, no, excuse me, about a month ago now, the culmination of it, Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops this bill. And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for the next year. And he includes a UFO provision in there. We want, Congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings

from the Pentagon on UFOs. That's an astonishing change of events. It's because of the media pressure and then congressional interest. It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter. It's kind of out of the shadows. And the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts. So sometimes, as they said to The New York Times, that program ended. Had nothing to do with UFOs. At first they said it did, then they said it didn't. They've admitted

Lou Elizondo worked on the program, then they said he didn't. They've said that the OSAP, which is the other program, the mother program that became AATIP, that that had nothing to do with UFOs, but it did. So they continue to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters. But the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore. You should tell Joe about how the government program OSAP was created directly because George wrote this book about a little place called Skinwalker Ranch, where the government was studying this property. That happened because of his book. Some DIA guys, well, you should tell the story.

I visited that place. Yeah, but you, yeah, right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think you got a little misled on it. Tell them how the government study started from your work. It's fascinating. So some of it stems back to Lazar. So we did that story in the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that

was a guy I'd never heard of before named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire. He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that. I've been interested in UFOs for a long time. Can I help you? Meaning, can he help fund me? I said, I work for a TV station.

I don't need any help. But he was not to be deterred. He then reached out to Lazar. They had a little, he started meeting with him and pumping up for information. And that really amplified Bigelow's lifelong interest in it. He created something called NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Science,

which he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in both the UFO field and the field of consciousness. So they're looking at two questions. Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Is it here? And do humans survive after death? And he assembled this board, former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Hal Puthoff, physicists, psychologists, really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics. I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it, not all of it, but some.

And I told Harry Reid about it in 1996, and he said, can I go? And so he showed up and sat in on the meetings, and he was kind of hooked. Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bob Lazar outside of our newsroom. Before we aired the stories, I'd known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982. Then he becomes Senate Majority Leader. So he'd always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly. That does not help your reelection chances. So in 2005, we write the book about

Skinwalker Ranch. NIDS, that team, bought the ranch. They were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated. They approached it like scientists would. They looked for prosaic explanations. They looked for gravity anomalies. They look for psychoactive plants. Could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something? Are the witnesses lying? They investigated the background of the family that lived there. And they found out that it could not be explained, all the range of activity there. So it was not only UFO. What kind of activity are we talking about?

Well, it starts with UFOs because that's what got their attention. The Uinta Basin in northeastern Utah has always been a UFO hotspot. Everybody who lives there basically has seen them. Balls of light, orbs, structured craft, daylight, nighttime. In 1976, a guy named Dr. Frank Salisbury wrote a book about it, The Utah UFO Display. And he took hundreds of these cases that have been collected by the locals. There was a local science teacher named Junior Hicks, who, because he had taught generations of kids science in that area, when people would see UFOs, they'd call up Junior Hicks. And he went and go and investigate them. And he had had

hundreds and hundreds of files. He gave them over to this guy, Salisbury, who wrote a book about it. And he said, these are real, you know, they're going on. But Junior Hicks would disregard any high strangeness cases that came along with the UFOs. Anything weird, Bigfoot, ghosts, anything like that. He thought it was too incredible. And he discarded that. Bigelow buys the ranch. He hears about these stories going on on this one property, flies in, meets with the rancher. And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months. And they were so scared that he, his wife, and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them so badly. Their property had had

ghost-type activity, poltergeist kind of things, trickster activity. Uh, for example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store. She buys all this food, comes back, uh, puts it on the table, takes it out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in all the foods back in the bag. She would take a shower in the morning, locks the door, puts a towel and a hairbrush on the cabinet, gets out of the shower, door's still locked, hairbrush and towel are gone. Dad's out in the field. He is digging a post hole, using a post hole digger, heavy piece of equipment. He stops for a second, wipes his brow, looks back, and it's gone.

And they find it two weeks later up in a tree. They start hearing voices at night in the air, speaking a strange language. They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside. Then their animals started being mutilated. Cows, the tracks would lead out into the snow and then just be gone. Calves mutilated, cut up with surgical precision. Cats wiped out, carved up. Dogs that were vaporized. Hundreds of these incidents.

They would see holes in the sky, like a great big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it. Now, this rancher, college-educated guy, grounded, strict religious religious guy thinks the government is trying to run off his property so he's out there at night lurking with a gun trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff and it's not government agents it was something else they start seeing ufos of all shapes and sizes the first one they saw was like a they thought it was a winnebago this ranch is a beautiful place, and it only has one way in and one way out. They see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead. How did this guy get past the house here and get down there?

He must be stuck. Let's go down and help him out. The lights start coming toward he and his son. Then they go up into the sky, up over the trees, and then poof, gone. These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go, they seemed to touch the fear center in your brain. They'd get near them.

They looked like a little bigger than a softball made out of glass with a swirling blue liquid, scared the hell out of the animals, and then it scared the hell out of the people too. This literally drove them to their knees with fear. These red orbs that would stampede the cattle. They lost so many cattle that they began to think that they were going to go under. They had these four prized bulls. I know I'm jumping around, but there's a lot of stories.

They had these four prized bulls, 2,000 pounds each, behemoths, very expensive animals because they were raising sementol cattle. Had them in the corral. And the husband and wife, they always felt like they're being watched. He says to the wife as they're driving to town, man, if something happens to one of those bulls, we'll go under. We'll be done. They come back a half an hour later. All four of the bulls are gone. They jump out, they're freaking out. Where did they go? Did somebody steal them? Are they rustlers

looking around all over the place? In this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store tools. And there's only one door into it. And it's locked with this heavy piece of wire. The door is still locked. The wire is still on there. The guy just as a last resort, he looks into the grating on top of this trailer and there's the four bulls inside. Door's still locked. They're all crammed in there. Now you could take a forklift. You could have a team of 50 people and they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer, but there they were. He yells to his wife, hey honey, they're in here. And when he says that, the bulls wake up as if out of a trance, kick the door down, and all got out. The NIDS team, which had been on the property for a couple of years at that point, fly in.

They had been in Las Vegas. They fly back in. They look around. They check out the animals. The whole corral, which is made out of metal, had been magnetized. out the animals, the whole corral, which is made out of metal, had been magnetized. So whatever technology was used to get those bulls from the corral into that trailer left a magnetic signature. They were there on the property, the Nitz guys, for several years. Bigelow owned it for 20 years. But eventually they gave up. Whatever this thing was, this intelligence, it did not like being

stalked and it played tricks on them. And they never made this stuff public because what are you going to do, write a paper about this? Who's going to print it? You can't make a documentary about it because they weren't there with cameras. Is there any evidence? Well, all this we're saying, those cattle mutilations, I guess that's some evidence, but that's only evidence of cows, and we can mutilate cows. What about all this other stuff? Like for the first 20 months when the rancher is there, they don't have any evidence because he's not a paranormal investigator.

They're not taking photos or something. They wanted to go away. So they don't have any evidence of that except for what the rancher told them. But then they talked to the larger community and the same thing has been happening to all the neighbors. The guy who lives next door had lost all these cattle as well, seized the craft. Sometimes these craft would float around. They looked like stealth fighters with Christmas lights around them, floating around silently. Again, is there any evidence? Not really. I mean, so Bigelow puts up cameras all over the property and you had them focused here where some activity had happened before.

The thing moves over here. You move the cameras and focus there. It goes away. Toward the end of the study, whatever it was that was there, one of these cameras would rip to shreds. They're up on top of a telephone pole, 30, 40 feet in the air. And there's wires that are secured all the way down the telephone pole. And they noticed that one of their cameras goes out. They figure, well, there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up, some kind of animal or whatever. Well, whatever it was, was invisible. And I know it's very frustrating.

It certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be caught. It wanted to demonstrate that it was there, but it didn't want to have evidence. The calf that was mutilated was in, I know it's a lot to handle. The calf that was mutilated, it was a Sunday morning. It's 10 o'clock on a quiet morning. It's daylight. The rancher and his wife are there by themselves. They're tagging newborn calves, tag their ears. And they tag this one right by the ranch house, 50 yards from their home. And they go off across the property. It's a clear day. It's unobstructed. Their dog is with them and makes a noise that points him back toward that first calf that they had tagged. And the dog

indicates that something's wrong. And they see the mom cow is dragging its leg and going around in a semicircle. It's in distress. They go running back over there. And this calf had been completely stripped of flesh, nothing left but a hide and bone. And one of the femur bones had been ripped out and thrown on the side. Well, they call in the NIDS guys. They bring in trackers. There are no tracks tracks there's no human tracks no no vehicle tracks no animal tracks the thing had been completely stripped of blood there's not a drop of blood on the ground it's gone 75 pounds of meat gone again over a time period of 30 minutes um is there a team of commandos that comes in and does that uh where's the blood go yeah and there's this is there's

evidence of this yeah photographs yeah video can we see that yeah where is it i made i made a movie called hunt for the skinwalker it's it's in there right is that the only place yeah it's it's probably it's probably some other places there's photos and video i mean so that i'm with you man what's the speculation about like why why would they do this and why would they do the cattle mutilations? Like, what is, is there any speculation? Some. So some of it is a demonstration. I mean, it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention.

This trickster element has been reported in other places around the world. There's no hot spot quite like Skinwalker, and I know how weird it sounds. There's no spot like that because there's no spot that's been studied to that extent. The NIDS guys were there for, well, Bigelow owned the property for 20 years. NIDS was active for seven or eight. Then another secret study funded by the government came in under an organization called BAS. That was the money that Reid got. He got $22 million and went to Bigelow as a contract, and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world

to try to find UFO information, but other related phenomena, things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs, but which are. A guy from the DIA had read the book and became interested, and he asked for permission to go to the property. This guy's a double PhD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications, the hole in the sky in particular, with things coming in and out. He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things happen. Did they film that hole in the sky? No. Again, that's when the rancher is there by himself.

So he's not a UFO guy. He's not trying to document it. I understand. But is there any evidence of anything weird, anything other than mutilated cows? Well, let's see. The video of the camera that was torn up by something invisible. They had something that... So in the video, you can see the camera being torn apart? You can't see anything. There's nothing. You can't see anything. You can see

before it happens. It's normal. And afterward... So I think your... How much time is taking place between before and after? I can't remember. But I mean, could that be hoaxed? Yeah, if Bigelow wanted to. But again, they weren't there to, in the beginning at least, for NIDS, they weren't there to try to prove that aliens are visiting. They're just trying to figure out why all this weird stuff is happening in one spot. It mixes in a lot of Native American lore that got mixed in the picture, but it's been going on in that Uinta Basin for 200 years.

Why? Don't know. I mean, our government has studied the medical. So like, what is evidence? It's so frustrating to me, too. When I was introduced to the Skinwalker thing through George, man, I'm with you. Like, what's the evidence? What's going on?

The weight of evidence is when you talk to people in the area and they all have these commonalities. Some people died of exotic cancers from burns from above where lights came down and hit them. And that's evidence. Their face is completely irradiated and they fucking died. So there's the cow. That's the cow. Yeah.

So you have a scientist like Dr. Colm Kelleher. Hold on for a second. That's where they found it? Yeah. Look at that. Yeah. Just what in the fuck can... That is so crazy now did they scan the area

to look for another spot where it could have been slaughtered before it was moved to this area well that's what they concluded is it had to have been taken somewhere and slaughtered and then brought back but who does that little larger please can you just um zoom in on that because that doesn't look very surgical to me that looks like wolves. Yeah, there's no... They actually did an analysis and it was done with two types of metallic tools. But look at all the jagged edges. So they took samples and they sent them to two pathology labs. Didn't tell the guys what they're looking for. You tell us what you can see. And the pathologist said that two

instruments had been used. One was a heavy machete-type instrument that had been hacked, and then there was a scalpel that had surgically removed a lot of the flesh underneath. It looks like something killed it, and then they moved it to that spot. I mean, if I had to guess. The way it's eaten, though. I mean, it looks like it was eaten. Well, there's no teeth marks. There are metallic marks. Metallic. There's no teeth marks. are metallic marks there's no teeth mark meaning they like a slice sliced okay and so something sharp sliced

it so i think the bigger point is this was happening on this ranch with owners prior to owners prior to owners i got to talk to a lot of people that knew so here's the deal the connection of this so george does this thing he reports on this for for 20 years that the government is now studying this ranch right because of deployment or because of all this weird stuff why is the government spending money through osap to study this ranch and other things and that's where it gets really fucking interesting what happens after with our government programs and that's what you know this um is before we get to that this image like the the jagged edges around the rib cage that's supposedly sliced that looks like hacked hacked okay i mean look it could let's say it's people

doing this you know two farmers to get them out of there let's say it's some program i mean although the cattle mutilation thing you gave me a stack of documents this big, has been studied by the FBI. It was, it's happened all over the country. No one has ever been caught. Not a single person. More than 10,000 cases. With all the same types of cuts. I mean, this is not my expertise.

I've seen a lot of that. It's really weird. There is another theory. The lack of blood is the weirdest part of it. Because if, see, like, what makes sense to me is that something killed that, they butchered it, they chopped all the meat off of it, and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there. Yeah.

That's what it looks like, if I had to guess. That's what NIDS thinks. There's no way that it was killed right there because you're seeing fresh clean hay underneath it everywhere There's no blood which doesn't make any sense at all. I think the question is is this a government program? Is this something or is this a scare tactic? It's been happening since the 50s like what is weird scare tactic? It's a click on that one below it Jamie that but the brown one with the green. Yeah, that one, please. Thank you. That's a weird one, too.

There's like a hole cut out. And there's a bunch of these they found all over the country and weirdness, like organs removed. But the weirdest part about it is it's almost always there's no blood. Yeah, I just investigated one, which I never thought I would do, but I got a call from a guy in Texas. You got to see it physically? Yeah. So right before lockdown, I go out and I'm like, this is so wild. I got to check this out.

The guy calls me. It's a pretty freshy one at this point. Now, I'm no expert, but I went and got samples and took them to labs and this sort of thing to see if there were tools used. So you got, here's my experience. Do you get pictures of this? Yeah. I filmed the whole thing. You have it on your phone?

I'll show you after I got it on my phone. Yeah. So I got great fucking's my experience. Do you get pictures of this? Yeah, I filmed the whole thing. You have it on your phone? I'll show you after. I got it on my phone. Yeah. So I got great fucking photos. Weird shit. Well, listen, man. Airdrop them to me now and we'll send them to Jamie and we'll put it up on the screen so other people can see it. Okay.

So let me. Yeah, after the show is not going to help us. Okay. While you're looking, I'll tell them about one of the theories about the cattle mutilations that Dr. Kelleher, Dr. Colin Kelleher developed was that somebody is tracking the spread of like mad cow prions through the food supply and that they've been doing it under the guise of UFOs. Since no one would take UFOs and cattle mutilation seriously, they're tracking how far these indestructible prions travel through the food supply because it's in cattle. It's in pigs. It gets fed into chickens and things like that and feed.

It's in deer. It's called chronic wasting disease in some circles. It's just weird. Well, chronic wasting disease, isn't that a – that's a different prion disease than mad cow, right? Well, it's a variation. Crutzfeld-Jakob disease, I think, too. So the same kinds of things in different species. It is indestructible, again.

So you hit a deer that's got this, and you grind it up, and you feed it to pigs. The pigs get it. And then it could be passed on to other the pigs get it yeah and then um and then it could be passed on to other species and it shows up in different ways kelleher was exploring the idea well whether or not it it might be the cause of alzheimer's or a version of mad cow and humans do you um they're all going to you right now this so this is a recent oh it says downloading so oh i'm downloading them and then, right, right, right. Are you on the Wi-Fi?

No, but it's coming through. Here you go. It's about to go to you. It says waiting. Okay, got it. Boom. I mean, I guess this does highlight, because this is my very limited amount of- Can you send those to Jamie, too?

Jamie, can you put your AirDrop on? AirDrop, Jamie? Sorry. Should have had to do that right away. It's ready to roll. His AirDrop is open. I don't see you, bro. Bro.

Hold on. There you go, young Jamie. So this is the stuff that you physically encountered. Okay. You physically saw this cow, and I'm looking at these images right now, and we're going to show them in a second. And this is, you said Texas? Yeah. Where in Texas?

Oh, gosh. What was the name of it in the panhandle? Yeah, I'm blanking. So here's the deal. Oh, yeah, that's it. So I made the movie based on George's work of the same title, Hunt for the Skinwalker, right? Hunt for the Skinwalker, right? And that movie was telling this story about how the United States government was studying this property of land because of UFOs and weird stuff.

That and weird stuff included things like cattle. Pull up this one. There's a lot of weird images, man. The skin removed around the face. Right. So this is my first chance to see this for myself. Because last time I was on your show, it was the ones in Oregon had just happened up at that ranch. And I thought, well, okay, if I'm ever going to do it, now's the time to do it. So I go, I get this call. Now remind you, this is a rancher. This is like, this is their livelihood. It's this huge,

huge area of land. That right there. Stop right there. They're a very religious community. Nobody – we go out to the middle of this land and in the middle there's this dead cow. No blood. No blood. And he had seen it prior. And the reason he called me is because in my movie you could see this special kind of slice, like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real meat relations. And he was looking at it.

He's like, that's exactly like in the movie. Now, this is a straight shooter. He's a religious guy. He had to ask his pastor if he could even, like, go on camera with me. It freaks him out. So he sees this. Now, he sees dead animals all the time. And he saw this cow you said before

accidentally he was out shooting bb guns with his kid and he's on this big part of land and he sees this down bull and he goes over to it and he's looking at it and it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before it had surgical cuts there is no doubt somebody killed cut up this animal with those classic like the ear gone two types of tools like a scissor type but by the way i tried to cut it it is not easy to cut so they had sharp tools and then there's like a very thin slice type kind of cut so i got to take it get samples take them to labs and try to see what type of tools did this. How did they do this with no blood on the ground and all the soil around it was dead. So I was like, well, why is it all dead?

Is that a natural thing? So I took soil samples and took them to a lab. And again, I'm outside of my... This is weird to me. Okay. But I think it's a real phenomenon. Somebody is killing these animals. Something, someone.

However you want to say it. Something, someone is killing these animals in a highly specified technical way that has been repeated since the 50s on. Our FBI has studied it. He has shown me so many reports of these in association with discs, saucers. Did this guy have any association with discs or saucers or anything? No, he's just a guy that owns the land. So he just found this cattle that's weirdly, weirdly mutilated. Somebody killed it.

Yeah. And he's like, is this demonic? Is this some sort of Satanist thing? And I said, I don't think so, man. This goes back in history. Like I'm looking at the cuts specifically. They're very unimpressive what that is doesn't look like a laser did it or some incredibly sharp scalpel

no it was like a it was like a serrated one was a serrated tool and the other that's the thing i'm saying it's like something that we could do oh absolutely we'd have to somehow do it though on in texas land where the guy would shoot you in the face if you go and try to touch one of his cows. That's the other thing. No one's ever been caught. Never. That's what's weird. Yeah, it's weird. It's frustrating, too. I've been to the ranch, the Skinwalker Ranch in the basin more than two dozen times.

I've never seen anything. I've interviewed the neighbors. I've interviewed the scientists. These are PhD level guys who had seen this stuff. A lot of times they have cameras that fail. I mean, it's, you know, you've heard that story before and it's very convenient that it happens just when some giant disc shows up, but it does happen that their car batteries would die in the same spot. Whatever it was, messed with them. And maybe it's humans. Maybe it is human technology, but no humans were

ever found to be doing this stuff. NIDS was there for all those years. They didn't want to tell anybody about it. They shared the information with me. But you can't publish it. There's no real physical proof. So they just left it there. And I had tried to do a documentary. Ended up, I talked to them and let me write a book about it, but you know, if people if you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof they don't have it. What's the primary, are there any primary theories of why they do

this to cows? Why someone's doing this to cows? You know. You need to catch somebody and ask them. I mean, you know, that's really weird that no one's been caught. Investigate the unexplainedained don't explain the uninvestigated that's what he always says and it's like i wouldn't think i would ever be interested in this but someone calls you and said they got a fresh cattle mutilation and they you know they're associated with the ufo

phenomenon sure i'm gonna look into it what i find more interesting is what's happening now with the the government study that started here at skinwalker Ranch, OSAP, the one that was in The New York Times, and where the information is going now. These are new times. Things are starting to drop to the public. And what is starting to drop? Well, so the Skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence, though there may be, comes to the attention of the Defense Intelligence Agency. This guy, this scientist who sees it, he goes to Bigelow. They go visit the property.

He looks around. He has an experience. He's not there 15 or 20 minutes, and something appears inside a house that only he can see. He doesn't say anything about it. He goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in a skiff in the Capitol and two other U.S. senators. He presents them the proposal for a study of UFOs and related phenomena, not just like AATIP, looking at flying saucers that encounter U.S. military, but something more expansive. They put out a contract, Bigelow bids on it, creates an organization called BASS, again, puts together a team of experts,

an organization called BAS. Again, it puts together a team of experts, 50 or 60 employees, and they start studying it. They go around the world. They interact with other governments. They get their files. They send out teams to hotspots to try to figure it out, looking at whether there are connections between what we call flying saucers, possible aliens, and all these other different phenomena. The program goes on for a couple of years, and somebody yanks the funding. And get this, the reason that the DIA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at Skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic. And they thought, if this comes out, that we're studying this weird phenomena, A, it's going to end up on the front page of the New York Times, which it did, and B, we might be invoking Satan in here. These were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they

thought it was the devil. I'm not making that up. That's hilarious. And the program now continues. They keep reporting that it stopped. It hasn't stopped. The U.S. military has been studying UFOs since the beginning in every branch of our military. They continue to do so.

And now every time they get caught in a lie. So it is continuing. Tell them about it. It is continuing. So AllSAP's money was taken away. But the AATIP program, which is what Lou Elizondo headed up, that looked just at military UFO encounters, continued. Pentagon says it was ended. It did not.

It continued for a couple of years. And after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furor, it got funding. And it now has a structured organization. And it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things. And off the coast of Virginia, they've been seeing this stuff.

I think Fravor talked about it when he was here, these beach balls with cubes inside of them. And they were sitting there for hours off the coast, right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises, as if they wanted to be seen. And it went on. There were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015, 2016 pilots. Some of them were willing to talk about it. Some weren't. It continues to this day. Now the program is on more solid footing. Now Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information. We are told the New York Times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what Lazar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering, the existence of these meta materials, bits and pieces that

grand pods stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes, they're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have created. So the BAS program, the OSAP program, created a baseline of what we know about the state of our technology right now in different disciplines, lift and propulsion, things of that sort. They commissioned 38 papers that would be the baseline for what the state of human knowledge was in 2009. And those papers were published on an internal Department of Defense website, but they've never been made public. Six of them have now leaked out, and I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.

So these are like scientific reports based on the government study of UFOs. Okay, so they commissioned these papers. Only a handful have been released to the public. George happens to have a few more. So you're going to be the first person outside of the program other than me to see it. So what does it say? They're called a DIRD. This is a Defense Intelligence Reference Document.

This paper is on metamaterials, so how you could engineer existing Earth materials where you could duplicate what you're seeing up there. None of these papers, two of them actually, mention aliens or UFOs. They're strictly on what the state of our knowledge is or was as of 2009. And they reference aliens and UFOs? Only two of the papers do. And how do they reference them? Well, there's one of the papers that looks at the physical effects of people that come into contact with these unknown craft. And it's sort of like the effects of radiation or microwaves there are physical effects

hundreds of cases that have been investigated and that's what that paper looks at and that's already out there yeah the harm that is done to the body what they call close proximity to a UAP which is a UFO there are known effects to the human body that are horrible and there was a study that focused on the witnesses they do know had close encounters like military people and then how it negatively impacted their body. So each of these reports, as he obtains them or as people find them, they're very illuminating to what our government knows. There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space. How difficult would it be? Now, it doesn't say UFOs, but it's looking at things that really travel fast that are coming in from space into our atmosphere.

How would you track that? Now, when that paper was written in 2009, we didn't have hypersonic weapons. Now, the Russians claim they've got them. Now, it's very timely because we're in a rush to develop those things. So that was one of the papers that I made public last year. And I interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it. He wasn't writing about UFOs. He was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapon systems back then. It's a similar thing for metamaterials. That's what this paper is, is how would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have,

say, you shoot it with microwaves and it could develop certain special properties? Just to put into context maybe because, you know, here's the deal. Our government has now admitted there are UFOs. That's the world we're living in. They're unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace, outmaneuver, actively jam our radar systems, even go over our military installations of high sensitivity, their incursions. All of this is now said. It's a different world we're living in. However, the next thing that people are talking about now is,

well, we also have materials. We'll call them metamaterials. Materials associated with UFO craft. They might even go as far as to say, we have whole materials, craft, from somewhere else. So when they're saying we have materials associated from crafts, are they saying that they have a crash? Yes. Hal Puthoff, who was a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both NIDS and BAS,

made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018, where he says, yeah, we've got these materials, and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they were engineered, because some of them appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known engineering capabilities of humans. It looks like they would have had to have been made in, say, say zero gravity of space and we don't have any Manufacturing plants up there. He implied that they came from crashes doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zeta Reticuli It's crashed from somewhere and we don't know whose it is So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not and they got a bunch of samples and are

Have you seen any of this? No, I haven't seen it. Bigelow and Hal have. Have you? I've seen what people claim. So the Army now has these metamaterials that were famously put in through actually the Coast to Coast show. It was called Arts Parts. I told you this last time. I did. I was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from New Mexico that I knew, material scientists, physicists interrogate, as they say, the samples for numerous days. I don't believe that I had access to the best equipment.

We didn't find anything extraordinary. Other people have. So right now the army has- But when you say you didn't find anything extraordinary, did you find anything ordinary? No, they weren't ordinary. These are the materials here? That's the exact, one of the exact pieces that I had in my hands and worked on with my team, and I filmed it all. But right now, because of TTSA, they've made a deal with the Army, and I think the Army has these parts.

But I feel like we're missing the big note here. The big note is a few years ago, UFOs are still laughable. Military doesn't look after that. Turns out we have programs that do. I'm suspecting, and maybe you can talk more about it, that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs, which will then make everybody have to look at Lazar's story a little bit differently once again. If we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else, intelligently designed metals or craft from somewhere else,

if there are crash retrieval programs for vehicles we don't know where they're from, that's going to make me look at Bob's story even more differently. Right. But isn't that a big if? I mean, if they've... It's an interesting time. It is, but I mean, there's no indication that they're willing to discuss some retrieved craft, right? Yeah, I think that's a heavy lift. So supposedly the New York Times are working on that story.

I think it'd be pretty hard for them to... More than supposedly, they are. Yeah, they are. They've been asking people about this stuff, but I mean, to get that into print, to get it past their editors, that's a hard deal. Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth.

Is that how you say that? Bismuth. Bismuth. And 100 to 200 microns of silver, magnesium, zinc, alloy. Each of the six pieces received from the U.S. Army source, were formed with a curvature that tapered. So basically they're saying there's no process that we know of that would create this alloy layered in that type of layer system. I actually have a piece out about this. Isn't that kind of how they did samurai swords?

Ooh, that's cool. I'm not sure that this is alien of any kind, but it is of unknown origin. Well, Jacques Vallée has like 20, as I said last, Jacques fucking Vallée, he's got like 27 samples of things associated with crash retrieval. So if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now, and his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth. So he's confident with his research. My big point- He's confident with his research of what? Well, you'd have to talk, you should talk with Jacques, but he- Right. But what is he confident of that you can say that-

That he has alloys that came from UFO crashes or runoff- Has anybody independently analyzed those things? Yeah, he's got a whole. Yeah, he's got a presentation. Yeah, whole teams of people. Well, how come this isn't like public knowledge? Why isn't this in the New York Times? You got to get, you got to get, you got to talk with Jacques,

whether you have him as a guest or not. You got to talk with him. How old is Jacques now? He's getting up there because. He's in his 80s. Yeah. I would probably have to go to him, right, with a hazmat suit on. No, he's a strong dude.

He's a strong dude. Where is he? San Francisco. Specifically. No. What's the address? Here's the thing. This program is ongoing.

It doesn't have to find aliens. There are legitimate national security reasons to be looking at who's flying these craft. These things are still being seen over our military installations. And our Pentagon wants to know who's flying them. And that's a perfectly legitimate inquiry, regardless of little green men. No one wants to say there at the Pentagon that we're investigating UFOs and aliens. They're just investigating where did these things come from? Are they a threat? Can we duplicate that technology? If the Russians or the Chinese get this stuff before we do, if they can do what the TIC-TAC did, it's a game changer.

So they want to know whose it is and how we can duplicate it. And that is a perfectly legitimate inquiry whether they're aliens or not. What is the most compelling piece of physical evidence to you? I don't know. I mean, I don't know that we have physical evidence other than if Bob Lazar's story is true, we've got craft out there that we didn't make. I mean, the idea that we have stuff that we're reverse engineering to figure out how it was made, that would be the clincher. I remember reading about J. Allen Hynek when he was running Project Blue Book. Now, he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up

with some sort of rational explanation that he could pass off to the general public. Swamp gas. As time went on, he became a believer. And I thought that was really fascinating. And then after Project Blue Book closed, he was very open and public about it. I'll give you one of his cases from Project Blue Book. It's April 18, 1962. The original explanation is it's a meteor.

It comes into an atmosphere over Cuba. It goes all the way up the east coast of the U.S. When it gets to New York, it turns left. It takes a left turn. It goes all the way across the United States. At gets to New York, it turns left. It takes a left turn, goes all the way across the United States. At a couple of places, it slows down. It's picked up on radar. Jets are chased after it. They can't catch it. It keeps on going. It gets to Utah. There's a little town called Eureka, and it lands. Lands in Utah, knocks out the power to the whole town.

Then it takes off again. That's a heck of a meteor. It gets over near Mesquite, Nevada and explodes. And this thing, the explosion was seen for hundreds of miles. They saw it in Las Vegas and Reno. I had interviewed a team that went out there to look for pieces. They thought it might've been an airplane that exploded. Supposedly never found it. A meteor that travels, takes a left turn, slows down, lands, takes off again. That's like no meteor I ever heard of. But J. Allen Hynek's team from Blue Book in their files, that's how they explained it away. The best evidence for me, because look, I'm just curious about this. This is just one of those places where all the answers aren't there. I want to know, man. So the best evidence for me,

because I ask that same question to everybody, it's the fact that we're being lied to. That alone, we can prove that. We can prove that our government intelligence agencies have actively partaked in lying to us about the UFO subject. There are craft of unknown origin that fly with impunity in our airspace globally and throughout history. And so the fact that they are lying and have been lying, that makes me, I'm like, why are you lying to me then? I want to find out. So for me, that's the greatest evidence that there's scientific studies on this stuff and everybody's hush the fuck hush about it. Why? Is it like North Korea had leapfrogged us 50 years ago, so all of a sudden,

you know, that's our enemy? I mean, who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space, drops down to sea level, docks like the Tic Tac was docking with a USO, an underwater craft, and it outpaces our military jets? You've got to be dead to not be curious about this. So that's the greatest evidence to me is the fact where we've been lied to as an American population. And we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit is real. And our military is worried about it. Well, if we haven't been lied to, at the very least, they haven't felt it. Well, if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing, if this is all they have, I don't know what they would tell the general public.

Totally. That's also part of the problem. Yes. What do you say? You know, as I said, this is an amazing time. We're getting closer to knowing what the government knows, but that doesn't mean we'd have an answer. Right.

I don't think they know either. That was always my take on it. It was like, why would they talk to the government? Like, if you came from another planet and you were looking at us as weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons what would you why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public why would you elected leaders would they really be important to you like it doesn't make any sense at all yeah i never really bought bought into the stories that there'd been a meetings or anything. I think the government is as clueless as the rest of us. They have more information because they have the sensors to collect it. They have a giant

apparatus, sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar. Somewhere there's a giant pile of information that we haven't been able to see. But it doesn't mean that it answers the question. This thing has been with humans throughout history, and it's always just tantalizingly out of reach. It used to be golden shields, and then it'd be swords and flaming chariots, and now it's flying saucers. And it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve, but it's always out of reach, and I think it will remain out of reach. Well, there's one thing that Bob talked about from some of the documents that he had been given when he was working at S4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings. And that is, to me, like if you wanted to say like, what's the things going to get people to roll their eyes the most? Well, you would say, well, that the aliens came down here and they got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings.

A lot of people go, get the fuck out of here. That's crazy. But if you look at people, one of the weird things about people is how much we vary. We're so different. Not like any other animal. Other than dogs. And dogs are the way they are because we've fucked with them.

Because we've manipulated them. We are the dogs of the rest of the world. If you really think about it, we're so different than every other primate. There's not even anything close to us. And I know there were some other human species, you know, how do you say it? The Denovians, right? There's Neanderthals, Homo floriensis, which was those little hobbit people. There'd have been a bunch of other humanoids,

but nothing that came close to what we are. And if you look at ancient uh ancient primates and us the leap between them and us is so quick the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is just bonkers like they don't know why they don't know what happened they have no idea but if if that really is what happened if they said listen they to get there, but we can help. Like, let's just jump in because these things like, look, chimps are still chimps, right? They're still murdering each other. They're still tearing monkeys apart and eating them alive. They're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years. Whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable, you know, it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so that the advancement

is so unique. It's so different than any other animal. If we really have been visited since the beginning of time, since history, if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the Bhagavad Gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about Vimanas and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high. If all that really is aliens intervening with the biological evolution of human beings, how fucking weird are we? You know, I mean, if you think about how weird we are, period, I mean, maybe that would kind of explain it, that we're some stupid science experiment.

Well, you know, people say, I want disclosure. I want to know. We're ready. We can handle it. Are you sure? You can't handle the truth. I mean, are you sure you can handle it? Because we don't know exactly what it is that can be disclosed.

But what if it turns out that we're an agricultural product, you know, that we are being harvested for something or we're being allowed to breed and kind of a science experiment? Let's see where this goes. And then when it's time to end the experiment, I mean, I'm not sure people can handle it. Look at how they've handled COVID. If you would think about if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines. Like, if you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that would kind of make sense. Like, all right, these fucking dickheads, they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing they figured out how to light the match like if you if you take this uh primate this animal and you embed it with the superior or at least more uh evolutionary advanced genetics. And you manipulate it to a point where you make it weaker but smarter,

far more curious, and obsessed with innovation. You can just leave it there. Well, it's just a matter of time. Like how much is that time? Is it 1,000 years? Is it 10,000 years? Over time, they're going to figure out some crazy shit because they're just going to keep working together like they do,

and then boom, bombs go off. They're like, all right, we got a signal. These crazy fucks figured out how to split the atom. We got to get down there and keep a closer eye on these people. I'm open to that possibility of that being the case. I mean, it's weird. It's not the craziest idea. No, there's crazier ones being put out today.

Just social media. The Big Bang is the craziest idea. We all agree on that. That's the craziest thing. The whole there's crazier ones being put out today. The Big Bang is the craziest idea. We all agree on that. That's the craziest thing. The whole universe came out of nothing. Right. Smaller than the head of a pin. Instantaneously creates everything you see in the night sky.

Okay. The technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or craft or bits and pieces. You know, I sometimes equate it with let's throw a – we're aliens. Let's throw a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage. Here, have at it. See how you do for a while. I don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out. Well, more than that, it would be like let's take a chimpanzee and let's manipulate its brain and leave them with a bunch of tools.

Give it some things and see what it comes up with. And then come back and try again. I mean, maybe Neanderthal was like, well, you know, they're not going to get any further past this. Like, this project, we need to scrap it. Start with something new. I don't think that's not. Look, we do weird shit to animals. I mean, we study them. You know, I was just talking to a friend of mine about zoos, about how bummed out I was when I went to this wolf sanctuary.

Because everybody's like, oh, it's amazing. You get to see these wolves that they've rescued. I got there. I saw a bunch of castrated wolves that were living in prison. I didn't think it was cool at all. It freaked me out. I got really depressed. I think you look at what we're willing to do to chimps.

I mean, I remember going to, I forget, maybe it was Denver. I forget where it was, the zoo. But there was a zoo where there was this monkey that was in a cage that was screaming, just screaming, like he was going crazy. It was a small cage and people were walking around. He's like, just, and I was like, he's probably going mad. This is not how a monkey is supposed to live. They're supposed to be in the jungle, in the wild, you know, harvesting food and living with other monkeys.

They're not supposed to be alone in a cage where these other weird primates walk by and stare at it. It just overwhelms all of its defense systems and survival systems. We're willing to do that to things that we know are at least slightly intelligent. Like what would be willing to do weirder, more advanced experiments to primates to create us? And how do you tell a population, if you do study UFOs as the government and you find out, okay, shit, they're a craft and they're coming in, they're probably studying us. Like, how do you fucking tell people that?

Like, how are people going to react? And the way that it's so compartmentalized, that's been the best proof to me as well. If I've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like, all I saw was a super capacitor in 1974, and I know this was not something we made. He was told nothing else. He just saw a technology that was more

efficient than anything he had ever seen. So the idea that people are funneling this information, whoever is funneling it, and protecting this information as we see how OSAP and AATIP didn't get special access permission, that's a special type of program. They knew about crash retrieval programs. So they said, we want to compare notes and information with other UFO projects. They were denied access. The door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask that. Senator Reid, who was Senate Majority Leader, had asked for permission to create it as an SAP, special access program, so they could get access to other goodies. And they said no.

Like other retrieval programs, material programs, stuff that Bob has talked about. So just the fact that it's so hidden, even within its own mechanism, that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project, it tells me, as Robbie says, something's up. I mean, something's up. Well, that was one of the weirder things about Bob's description of Area S4, about how compartmentalized everything was, about one group worked on metallurgy, the other group worked on propulsion, and they didn't share information. It pissed him off so bad, man. Well, it was what the way he described best is that scientific research, the way you progress is everybody works together. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum. So they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method. They were trying to withhold information from them and only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this

project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are. Bob said he wasn't the most qualified person to do the job either. That freaked him out. And he didn't have the right materials even. Well, I think they probably – let's assume they are alien spacecraft. They probably knew that no one was qualified. They probably knew that we just really have no idea, especially if they had been working on these things for decades like Bob assumed they had been.

They probably had gone through the best scientists that they could and they realized, look, no one has any idea. Let's get this out-of-the-box weirdo who puts jet engines in Hondas. Let's get some – look, there's a lot of very strange people out there that are incredibly intelligent that might not fit into your standard educational bundle or category of research scientist or whatever. He might just be a weirdo who likes to shoot guns and make hydrogen-powered Corvettes. Maybe that's the kind of guy that's going to see something that maybe other folks haven't seen yet. I think that's entirely possible. It's also possible that they used him to discredit the idea of crash retrievals forever. Let's bring this guy in, show him some stuff, let him spout it out, then we'll cut his legs off.

Yeah, but the problem is the reason why he spouted it out was it was so clear that they had nothing to do with that. you know it was so clear that they had nothing to do with that it was his wife having an affair and he had top secret clearance because he has top secret clearance they're monitoring all his phone calls they find out that the wife is banging her flight instructor and so they say listen this guy's going to be unstable we can't have him work there anymore they suspend his working privileges and he freaks out and then he takes people to see the crap the launch sites he takes a look they do this at a certain time period every week i'm going to take you down there he takes his friends down there they get busted they get arrested it's just too the the actual verifiable facts of his being caught the whole phone call thing the fact that his wife was having the affair

there's no way they're playing that kind of 4D chess. This is the fucking government. They're too goofy. If I found out that Bob Lazar was lying to the world, I would be the first person to tell you. There's no reason I wouldn't. That was the whole reason I got interested. That's why I contacted George back in the day. I wanted to know if he was fucking making it up with Bob. And I'll attest to you for whatever you value my opinion at. I have been with Bob in his life, met everybody, his family. The closer you get to his inner circle, the more you understand that he's telling the truth. And never once have I found something where I'm like, you're a fucking liar. Never once.

Yeah, it's a weird thing. Like the only thing that people kept pointing to in the podcast was that he was getting migraines. But, dude, he had a migraine. He had migraines. He had migraines earlier in the day. I mean, it wasn't any – you could tell he would stop and he would wince. And, you know, he just didn't like the idea that he was going to do this thing, that he knew that millions and millions of people were going to see him talk about this for hours and hours. And he knew it was all going to come back up again.

talk about this for hours and hours, and he knew it was all going to come back up again. All the investigation, all the people fucking with him, all the attention that he had avoided. Another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story. No. This guy told this story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it. The migraine might have been the McDonald's. His wife was furious at me because when I brought him over, I was like, just get some in your stomach, man. I think it was bad food.

It could have been that and the pressure, but the pressure is not innocuous. The pressure was deep because he didn't know you. He didn't know if you were just going to start asking him about his wife cheating on him. It's stressful, man. Oh, listen. I get it, man. That was one of the good reasons why we had dinner the night before with my buddy Andrew Schultz. And I brought Andrew along too

because he's a really smart guy. And I said, just please, just pay attention to this motherfucker. Tell me what you see. Just if you see some bullshit, if you see some weirdness, let me know. What'd he say? Nothing.

He said, I don't know. He goes, if that guy's telling the truth, that is fucking crazy. You know, because Andrew's a comic, but a really good one and a really smart guy. So his, I just wanted, you know, again, outside the box. Have some guy who's not obsessed with UFOs at all. Have him come.

And, you know, and Andrew asked a bunch of questions. Andrew was at the bar before, when Bob and I arrived, we go up to the bar. I didn't know who Andrew was, right? And then Joe walks in. Hey, Andrew. And he had been sitting right next to us. So Joe was putting spies out. That was a good move.

But, you know, it's so frustrating. It's fun, and I think I would have stopped. But George has been doing this 30 years. It's like you always get one step forward. And, look, we all want to know if this stuff is true. But the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with. It's just an exciting time. And I think I learned more in this last year than all the time before. And I think that that's

going to continue. I don't think we're all of a sudden going to say, okay, this doesn't matter anymore. If this is real. Yeah. I'm not counting on any answers anytime soon. We may know more about what the government knows, but that's not the ultimate answer. I mean, what if it turns out these are not aliens? They live here. There's some other intelligence that we can't see. They can reach in like rats in a cage and pull us out once in a while or do experiments to us. And it's their planet. And we're living in this tiny slice of reality and don't realize what's going on around us.

There's a UFO. There's a UFC fighter, a woman named Angela Hill. She's a badass. And her grandfather is Barney Hill. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. I didn't know until after the podcast. Her and I did a podcast together just talking about her fighting career.

And then at the end of it, she goes, oh, there's one thing I forgot to bring up. This is like after the show's over. I'm like'm like what how did you forget to bring that up that is so crazy her grandfather is one of the most important characters in the history of ufo abduction betty and barney hill who are a couple in new hampshire yes maine or new hampshire new hampshire in New Hampshire? Yes. Maine or New Hampshire? New Hampshire. New Hampshire. And they get abducted and through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of they lost time,

their car stops, this UFO shows up and then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again. And I had this conversation with someone

where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO ab time again. And I had this conversation with someone where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO abductions? And I said, I don't. I don't believe in them, but I don't not believe in them either. I don't. I just keep a blank slate with this because their take was like, wouldn't you think more people would talk about it? I go, why would they do it that often? I go, how many unique occurrences would have to take place before it would be common knowledge? How many times would people have to be abducted before you would believe? And what would they get out of these abductions?

And look, we know what we're willing to do with chimpanzees or gorillas or any other primate, orangutans that we find in the wild. They run experiments on them. They capture them. They do things to them all the time. Why wouldn't something that's infinitely more intelligent than us abduct two folks that are driving somewhere, Betty and Barney Hill? Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they experiment on them?

There they are right there. These are people that don't want attention. I mean, it's an interracial couple back in the, was it 50s or 60s? Right. It was probably in a lot of parts. I mean, it wasn't until I found out until 1967 or 68, like while I was alive, that interracial couples were allowed to marry in the entire country. So Betty and Barney Hill, it's kind of funny when I'm looking at Barney, he does kind of look like Angela. Oh, you see the genetic. I don't know.

Maybe I'm just looking into it. Have you seen the Unsolved Mysteries one on Abductions? The new Unsolved Mysteries reboot? No. Oh, dude. Great case. The other case that fascinates me besides this one, but that one surely fascinates me

because it's the original, but Travis Walton. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's a weird one, man. It's a, it's a solid one too. I mean, I've met Travis a few times and his story like Lazar's does not change. There are additional witnesses. What he went through is comparable

to Bob. I mean, he was called a liar and basically I think his friends were accused of murdering him and that's a solid case. I mean – It's a really weird one too. Another great case. So I met two of the girls, Salma and Liesel. And you remember that school where like 80 kids or something – I'm going to get some parts wrong. Eighty kids saw these craft come down and the BBC came the next day with Dr. John Mack, head of Harvard Psychiatry. And he's the one who wrote that book Abductionduction, which I read. Yeah, this is what got him. So these kids see this craft come down South Africa

and at the aerial school. And I actually got to spend a weekend with two of the primary witnesses, one that was three feet away from, she's telling me there was a being there. When you hear what happened to them, now the BBC did film the next day, you did have Dr. John Mack going and

testing all the kids and trying to see consensus what they saw. But when I met these two women later in life, I can't dismiss what they're telling me. It's like you telling me you went to the grocery store. Why am I going to doubt you, man? That's how matter of fact they are about it. They don't know what they saw, but they know exactly what they saw. They just don't know the implications of it. Well, John Mack experienced a lot of blowback from that book. You're talking about a guy who's, was he employed at Harvard at the time? His head of Harvard psychiatry. Yeah. And so he writes this book about UFO abductions. And I actually found out about it from my friend Maura,

who worked with me on news radio with Dave Foley. She actually was reading the book. She's like, this is right up your alley. She goes, it's so crazy. Like, I didn't know what to think. Somebody recommended it. But along the way, she's like, these stories are so similar. It's crazy.

Like, there's all these different people that don't know each other from all over the world that have really similar stories. Like if this thing is happening, again, how would anyone know and how many times would they have penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a distorted memory which it seems to be part of the story and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped and they come back very confused like how many of those would take place before we would all know about it? I mean, they wouldn't have to do it that often. There's 300 million people and they do it once a week.

Who the fuck is going to know? How are you going to hear about it? What's the, what's proof? What is the level of proof for those cases? This phenomena is elusive. It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities, but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it. It's as if it's trying to tell us, it's like a learning curve, you know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is. That's sort of like what we got out of the ranch is that it's putting all these different weird phenomena together when you can't really prove any of them. It's trying to tell you something. So what can you learn from it? What's your take on Whitley Stryber? It's a mix. I think he's a brilliant guy. And I

think he did have some experiences. I don't know that the experience has continued. You know, you get mixed signals from him. The fact that he is a great novelist, a horror novelist. Complicates it. Complicates it. Complicates it. He thinks about this stuff on a different level. You know, it used to be we all thought it saw that alien on the cover of his book, Communion, and figured it was a space alien from some other planet. And he's on a whole different level about what they might be now.

What does he think they are? In essence, gods. I mean, Jacques Vallée had said, if you can manipulate space-time, if you can create your own gravity like the craft that Bob was talking about, you could be from other planets, other solar systems, other times. You could be time travelers. You could be from other dimensions or all of the above. had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multi-dimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet, and that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out. George has been, remember, he is a journalist that broke mob stories, corruption stories, political corruption stories. I mean, just last year.

I mean, this guy has been doing this for 30-something years. UFOs has defined him because the world at large has defined him by the UFOs. That's because of the stigma. Now, of course, he's made lots of headway and does the co-show like Art Bell. But what he's doing now is kind of cool. After 30 years of studying this and filming with people on news, you get to drop 12 seconds, one minute in a news report. He has a Kashuk record of everybody ever involved with claims about this stuff throughout the last 30

years. And he's been dumping it all online. So all of his collective wisdom over the years of what could this fucking be he is now starting to release those archives and so this is for me it's a very exciting time because like the lazar interviews there's so much more out there now that he had under his station where do you keep that george it's called mysterywire.com it's a i work for klas i'm still part of the i team but since the beginning of the year i'm focusing most of our attention on that, producing new content. But all this stuff that I've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there. Dr. John Mack will be on there eventually because I got to interview him, too, while he's still alive.

And he was hit by a car, right? What is this, Jamie? What is that new Area 51 photograph taken by private pilots? Oh, that was pretty cool. Yeah, they flew over papoose lake you know it's like you're allowed to do that no you can get clearance to get by it and have a really good camera but here's what's so funny it's like people that aren't convinced will never be convinced they said oh there's new photos of papoose lake and we don't see an installation

and i'm like oh you don't see an installation that was built to not be seen from the air Oh, you don't see an installation that was built to not be seen from the air. Okay. I mean, if people don't want to follow this shit or understand it, they're always going to see whatever they want to see. Are you following me? Yeah. Okay. I was in a vacuum there. Everybody was looking at me blankly.

I was like, well, you're having an argument with someone who's not there. Oh, okay. You're like arguing. So you're not seeing it with someone who's not there. Oh, okay. You're like arguing with someone. So you're not seeing it. No one's here. Yeah, my point is it's just I can't bang my head against the wall because I don't know what the real truth is. George, was it a struggle to talk about UFOs and yet maintain a serious career as an investigative journalist? Very much so.

You know, I had the support of my news director and the station at the time. And they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience. It was big. And then it expanded and went all over the world. But I think they worried that I was going too far down the rabbit hole. So I had to be careful. I mean, for me, it is not my religion.

I'm not chasing this because I've got a hole in my heart where God should be. It's a story. It's always been a story. And so I try to be careful and I've got a hole in my heart where God should be. It's a story. It's always been a story. And so I try to be careful and not commit to a position. It's space aliens. It's interdimensionals. I'm following what evidence there is.

I'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out. And over the years, you know, I have been all over the world to chase this down. In the end, a lot of the answers or the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded. All that expertise came right into my backyard. And then Harry Reid being the sponsor to the program that became AATIP. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and to gain their trust. And it's tricky, you know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous. And whenever I do a story not related to UFOs,

it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that. And people are mad at me, which happens often. They bring up UFOs, you know. Oh, that's the UFO guy. How serious can it be? Yeah, that's what I was going to get to. But I've had the support of my employer, and I'm thankful for that.

And, you know, I get to be a little more creative on Coast to Coast because it's a four-hour show and you can let people go. I don't have to be judgmental about it. When I'm reporting as a regular news story, I have to be more careful about what I include in it. But, yeah, we're putting all that stuff up, and it's been a fun ride. And there's a lot of times I've just want to walk away from it. Like you, I get disgusted by it. Yeah. Have you noticed in your world, the world of investigative journalism, that attitudes and opinions have changed about UFOs? Very much so. I think, you know, I go back to the New York Times story that changed so much. So I had known that stuff. And when I found out they were going to do it, I had known about the program that was underway. I said, hey, why

don't I get to do this? Because I've known about all this time. I kept quiet about it because that was my agreement. I'm going to do this story. They said, no, this is Bigelow, Senator Reid, and Tom DeLonge had asked me, don't do that. If you do it, the New York Times said they'll back out. And so I sort of, I don't want to say took one for the team, but I realized I'm not the New York Times. They were gently letting me know I'm the UFO reporter. If I do it, nobody's going to pay attention to it. If the New York Times does it, then everybody does pay attention to it. And they did. They did that story. Then the Washington Post and Politico, all the networks did stories, press all over the world. It is now acceptable for reporters to dig into it. You have to be careful. There are still

liars and scammers out there who will mislead you, but there is information that can be pursued by reporters. And I think that's made all the difference. It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it. And our world is different from how it was two and a half years ago. Yeah, I think the people that were in control of this stuff also in the 60s and 70s, they're not around anymore. So you're dealing with now people that are in government and involved in the military that grew up in the age of the internet. And they have a different perspective about these subjects. The free flow of information.

They see everything is there. Why is anything kept secret? Well, I think younger people just have a different perception about UFOs in general. I mean, I think that you're not dealing with the post-1947 people that were talking about it back in the day. And also the attitude of the way the military and the government interface with the public. I mean, they could come up with the most ridiculous deception. The Roswell case is one of my favorite ones.

I used to have a bit about it. But how crazy it is that they say, and they print it in the paper, we've recovered a downed saucer. And then the next day, it's, oh, it's a weather balloon. You don't know the difference between a spacecraft from another dimension or another planet or a weather balloon that was made in Ohio? Well, the same question now. Dave Fravor doesn't know the difference between a Tic Tac and this weird craft and a seagull or something. He won't engage those insane arguments.

He just won't do it. He's a fighter pilot. He doesn't give a fuck. Well, the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there, but it was jamming. It was doing some sort of active jamming. That's right. An act of war. This is the other paper I wanted to tell you about.

It does mention aliens. So it's a – it is a recalculation of the – Am I in trouble for having this? No, no, no. They're not classified. It says unclassified. It just hasn't been released. I'm going to fucking run out of this room right now.

It just recalculates how likely it is there are alien civilizations in our solar system or our cosmos. How likely? So it's about the Fermi paradox? It's sort of the – The Drake equation. It's the Drake equation. So they had done this years ago about, they tried to figure out how many planets are out there,

how many are inhabited. This is a reworking of the calculations. And again, I can't read it. Defense intelligence reference document and introduction to the statistical Drake equation. So this is something that they created for the Defense Department. Yeah. So they could get an understanding.

Yeah. What the baseline of our information is about all those different topics I told you about. And then this one is, how likely is it that we have galactic neighbors and how close might they be? Yeah. The key question, how far are they? It comes to an answer. It's like 30 pages into that. But you're the first person outside the program to see it. You better drop those. Sure this is okay?

Yeah, it's okay. It feels like I'm going to get visited. You're all right. Yeah, well, how far do they think they are? I hope they get it for you. And again, one of the reasons I've become a journalist is so I don't have to do math. And again, one of the reasons I've become a journalist is so I don't have to do math. That's one of the cool things now that's happening is because of the New York Times article and really because, you know, you had Bob on and come out of favor.

People are talking about this in the zeitgeist. I've had more people, serious people, come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before. And it includes soccer moms and just people that just I want post the documentary yes ever since the Lazar documentary you know and and people found out that I kept my word to favor and didn't tell his story New York Times told that I kept all that you know people started to trust me with hey we can keep his mouth shut if he needs to people have come forward to me in droves since the Lazar movie.

And of course it's like soccer moms and people that just say, I don't wanna be known. I just want somebody to hear this because my husband would think I'm crazy. Let me just tell you what happened to me and I'm out of your life. And what are they telling you? I mean, Joe, it's everything you can imagine

from seeing craft that are right there, right in front of them to, you know, abduction stories, which I don't get into because it's too crazy for me. But they're reporting sightings, encounters, all UFO stuff. That's why they call me. They don't call me for other stuff, right? But also very serious people. People that have worked or do work within our military and say, I had an encounter. There was an incursion.

I know George has dealt with this for 30 years. It's just new for me that the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that, I got to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit. Right. But a good handful of it is powerful. A lot of it is like bait to discredit you.

Is that what you think? Or do you think it's just crazy people? It's crazy people and some of it might be more organized than that. The Rachel Your Show, Joe, when Bob was on there, I know what happened to Jeremy as a result of it. I get a little bit of the blowback because people are interested in the topic, but

it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest, not only in that story, but in others on the general topic. By the way, this paper says, with a 75% probability, the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between 1,361 and 3,9779 light years from us. So there you go. Wow. And the way they travel, that ain't shit. No, that's lunchtime. And that's such the important part of it. Remember we were talking about non-reactionary propulsion systems?

Everybody, like 10 years ago, everybody's like, okay, the universe is vast. There's probably intelligent life forms out in the solar systems in the universe, but they ain't coming here. But then you look at what Bob said and how gravity wave amplification would, and then you look at the testimony of like Commander Fravor and how those craft move, you see how the gimbal moves, and then you start thinking, well, distance doesn't matter anymore.

That's just us saying, physicists, we're right. Well, hold on. Physics has changed as our understanding has changed. So now we're looking at a propulsion system where distance doesn't matter man that brings us all much fucking closer together if any of this is true yeah if any of this is true this i mean there was a lot of uh naysayers back in the day that were quote-unquote ufo experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled here, like Stanton Friedman. He had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts, like very fast travel in short bursts so you could tolerate.

But if they, and he didn't believe in Bob Lazar too, but I always felt like there was some weirdness there. Like UFO guys and researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them is full of shit. That's right. And that's what I felt like with Stanton. When Stanton would discredit Bob's education pass and all these different things, I'd be like, yeah, but I don't know. I don't think you know him. I don't think you talk to him.

I don't think you get in the room. Just empty out. Empty out all your predisposed notions of who the guy is and look at it. What if he's telling the truth? What if he's telling the truth? Does that place actually exist? Area S4, yes. Does he have some weird knowledge of it? Yes. Did he really work at Los Alamos Lab? Yes. Did people who work there remember him? Yes. Does he know how to navigate the building from the inside? Yes. Was he know how to navigate the building from the inside? Yes. Was there a fucking article in the newspaper where he built a fucking jet car and it said he was a physicist at Los Alamos Lab? Yes.

These things are piling up, Stanton. I wish you were alive. I wish you were alive because he was a really smart guy. He was also obsessed with UFOs. But again, these UFO experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit. I had a 20-year dialogue with Stan Friedman, and I respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable. But he had a blind spot about Bob. And we had multiple face-to-face

conversations and exchanged letters over the years. Did you ever say what if he was telling the truth? Yeah, I have said that to him. And he can't get beyond the college degree stuff. That's the stopping point for him. Did you bring up, like, I'm sure Bob told you the same story he told me about working at Los Alamos Lab and his education at MIT. I did not tell him that story. But it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff.

All the things about, how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video? Right. Doesn't want to hear that. Why not? Just didn't hear it.

Why not? He'd already made up his mind. That's not good. That's not scientific. And I can understand, my emails and correspondences and texts are a dump truck for conspiracy. Everybody thinks I'm some fucking believer and they can just hit me with fucking 5G COVID stuff.

And I'm like, Jesus Christ. And I try to push it. So it's people that actually know me, my friends. And George, too. We're like the person that's hardest to convince that your story has validity. We ask for documents, for military background. We vet people. He vetted Lazar. I vetted Lazar. It's not like we're sitting here, oh, we want this to be true. Tell us your story. But do you understand that's why the Skinwalker Ranch thing does

nothing for me? I understand. I totally understand. I don't see anything there. Yeah. I see a dead cow. Yeah. There were PhD scientists on that ranch for 20 years, some part of the time working for the U.S. government trying to figure it out. They would have experiences. They can't document them. They realize that nobody's going to believe it. It was very frustrating. But they tried to look for a bigger picture of what it was trying to teach them. Why is these performances – and that's how they considered them, like performances. They're not just UFOs popping in here just because it's a portal or something. They were showing glimpses of themselves for a reason. Because if they didn't

want us to see them, we wouldn't see them. It's like the Tic Tac. There's the Tic Tac sitting around. It's been there for a couple of weeks, zipping in and out. We can't quite get a radar bearing on it. And it's sitting there waiting for a freebie weeks, zipping in and out. We can't quite get a radar bearing on it. And it's sitting there waiting for a freighter to come along. And then it kind of reacts, oh, is there somebody else here? And it zips away. It knew that we were there, given its capabilities. It wanted to be seen.

But why? That's the difficult thing is can you accept – so if thisfo thing is real and there are these intelligent craft and stuff can we accept that it is aware of us that it is aware that we have cell phones that it is aware that we want to monitor it and if it's highly advanced wherever it's from i don't care if it's fucking aliens or again north korea i don't care who it is right but if they're that advanced if this technology if there's any weight to it which is, then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them and that they can work from a technologically more advanced standpoint, right? I mean, I have to accept that. Skinwalker, all that, it was hard for me when I started

doing the film and working with George on it. It's hard for me. Where is the concrete evidence? I see Commander Fravor. That's concrete evidence. The documents. That's what he first showed me is documents, documents. Great. That's hard evidence. So I know it's hard to accept some of that, but I'm not going to exclude it.

Like I didn't exclude Bob. I wanted to find out the truth. I'm not going to exclude it, investigate the unknown. No. find out the truth. I'm not going to exclude it, investigate the unknown. So there might be some scary explanations ultimately that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts and we're in the shower and we're sleeping and they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet, not ours, that we're an agricultural product. That's scary. The other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone, that we're the only life anywhere,

that this is the only inhabited planet. Some people believe that. I don't, but that's pretty scary too, because you look at how we take care of ourselves and it's not very well. Yeah. The whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking am i just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense like but then you hear like one of the things that bob told me that was so strange was uh when we were doing the podcast he was saying that they think that one of them was really old. It was from an archaeological dig. And I was like, well, why are they leaving spacecrafts around? Are they leaving spacecrafts around?

It's like, go ahead, let them figure this shit out. Yes. Yes. You think that? I think so. Like I said, throw in the cell phone into the monkey cage. Here, help yourself. Knock yourself out.

And we see these displays, you know. If they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't. They have stealth capability. We can see them right there and not see them on radar. We can see them on radar, but they're invisible. You know, they... You can only see them sometimes through thermal. So as our military devices get better at detection, UFO sightings are going up. And it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just flying in. But some of them don't display a thermal heat signature. Absolutely.

Do some of them do and some of them don't? Do they display different forms of propulsion? I don't know. Don't know. It seems extremely varied. Is there anything you can imagine and more? This cop just called me a month ago, and he's not a UFO guy or anything. And he had an encounter, he claims, that was so extraordinarily strange, like non-aerodynamic, something impossible. He saw

something impossible. They come in all shapes and forms. It's just that as we look more, we're seeing more, I think, because our technology is increasing and maybe because our awareness also, we're starting to be more curious, our government and our scientists. I think the scientific community should engage this topic. You have stuff to study now. Michio Kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now that there are craft. Our government's working on it. The Russians are working on it and the Chinese are working on it. That we know of for sure. That's been told to me directly. Senator Reid had said that was one of

the reasons he started the program. It's because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out. And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it, the Chinese get it before we do, we're in trouble. Or the aliens come down and smack everybody around. So what do you think, man, after kind of doing three rounds on the UFO stuff? What do you think's up, man? I don't. That's the problem.

I don't. I don't. I just sit back and I wait. You know, I think when you look at Fravor's, what Fravor saw clearly, there's evidence. There's not just evidence that it was jamming, tracking. There's them trying to figure out what it is. There's the incredible rate of travel where it can go from 60,000 feet to above the surface in literally a second. And they don't even know how fast it really went because it takes a second for the radar to register.

That alone is just bonkers. Like, what is that? Like, what is that and how do you dismiss that? And no sonic booms as an example. So that would – a transmedium craft is one that goes through space, air, or sea, and it doesn't have the same displacement as you'd normally have. That would be a gravity-propelled craft. No sonic booms, no splashes of water.

Yeah. That would be a gravity-propelled craft. No sonic booms, no splashes of water. Yeah, so I'm just curious. Before you were, you've been back and forth on the topic. So has George. So have I. I get so fed up with it sometimes. I'm never going to learn anything. Everybody's fucking crazy. Well, there's just so many people out there that have an interest in discussing it too.

Where they do these lectures, they tour, and they do these UFO conferences, and they just get together with other bullshit artists and they make a living. It does happen. That's a part of the problem. It's a part of the problem is that there's money to be made in this. And you realize that when you interview these so-called experts. When you sit down and talk to them, a lot of them are just – they're knuckleheads. And they don't respond very well to scrutiny. Luckily, he's a journalist with a day job.

And I'm just a filmmaker, not just a UFO researcher. But you're kind of obsessed. Let's be honest. I'm going to be completely honest. I am. How do you not be? How do you not be? I mean, it's one of the most compelling subjects that the human race has ever known.

Are we alone? And if we're not alone, is something as advanced to us as we are to ants? You know, and that is obviously there's, if you follow the string of evolution, things become more and more complex. And in the case of primates, they become more and more intelligent, more and more capable of manipulating their environment. So if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw a completely different ecosphere, a completely different series of metals and different propulsion systems get invented first, long before fire. I mean, maybe they're just messing with some stuff that's just very different than us. Maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroidal impacts. And they've had a

steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years. I mean, we really don't know. Just think about a civilization that's so much as 100 years older than us. Right, especially now. Think how far we've come in 50 years. I mean, the stuff that 50 years ago, a cell phone might be considered witchcraft, you know? And the rate of change is exponential. Something 100 years or 1,000 years older than us could have technology that's basically magic.

And a million years in terms of biological life on Earth is really nothing. It's nothing. We haven't even been alive for a million years. Humans haven't been human for a million years. So just think what goes on a million years from now. The other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien. When you look at it, it's like if you took cavemen or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans, you're seeing this pattern of the heads are getting bigger, the muscles are getting smaller, the body's getting less hairy.

Well, if you keep going, what do you get? You get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost non-existent, these like stick bodies, but they still maintain that sort of iconic primate shape. They're kind of primate-like, where they walk on two legs, they have two arms, they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers, they have two arms, they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers, they have heads that have predators' eyes, because the eyes face forward like ours. Like, are we looking at what always happens to life? I mean, if life exists the way it exists here,

and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment, and then it starts to look like that, where they develop technology, where they don't need brute force anymore, so their bodies slowly but surely shrink and become something that's just not reliant on a muscle strength, but rather on telekinetic ability, the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts. I mean, that's one of the things that Elon said

when he was talking about his neural link, which is, you know, I mean, if you want, if there's a fucking alien on earth, it's that guy, right? Yeah, there you go. And he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly improve your ability to access information. It will increase your bandwidth of information substantially.

And in his words, you'll be able to talk without using words. without using words. Now, when you look at aliens, the iconic alien has this slit for a mouth, very little nose, giant eyes, and an enormous head. Well, if we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing, isn't that what we're going to look like? Aren't we going to look...

Maybe those things have weird skin because we realize like regular skin kind of sucks. It gets zits. You get cancer. It's penetrable. They've already figured out a way to make some sort of a hybrid of spider silk and human skin that would be bulletproof. I mean this is something that they've done research on in a lab. I mean whether or not it actually gets to a human body, you know, who knows? But when you look at those things, when you think of that iconic alien shape, it does remind us of the process of evolution.

It looks like what we could be. Like it causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers. Yeah. That's us in the future coming back to see when we screwed up planet Earth or something like that. Well, it could be or it just could be their life that's gone further than where we are and they know the process. And that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics. They're like, well, they're going to get there anyway. Let's just step in and jack up the process.

Maybe we don't have a million years. Maybe because of where we live in terms of our galaxy. I mean, this is a legitimate shooting gallery. There's like some stupid number like 900,000 near-Earth objects that could end us. So they're injecting miracle growth? Yeah.

Maybe they're looking at this and like hey we got to give these people steroids like they're not growing quick enough like let's get in there and and get it so that they can legitimately get to a point before they get hit and we've been hit many times while we're you know going through this process but get to a point where we can accelerate their evolution. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it sounds crazy, but so do we. Bullets sound crazy.

You know, cars sound crazy. Electric cars sound crazier. It's okay to talk about crazy things, right? I mean, we can theorize. Yeah, for sure. A couple of months ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe. And I don't know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that – I don't know if they're theorizing that time operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe. Now, get your head around that one. Benjamin Buttons.

Go back in time. You become a baby. Dark. That's a great show on Netflix I saw the image for it when I was scrolling the other day

straight up it's like in a different language but they translate so the lips move a little differently but man it is deep you have to have

like take notes as you watch it's about the Mobius loop of time with alternate dimensions blew me the fuck away it's great it's great

yeah it is the ultimate who knows question, but goddamn, I wish more people from S4 would come forth. If Bob really did work with all those people and they really were briefed the same way he was, if we could get more of those people to talk, that would be utterly fascinating. Well, your show has a big reach, so maybe this time somebody will hear it and come forward.

Did anybody ever reach out to you that claimed to also have worked with Bob at S4? A bunch, yeah. Did you verify any of them? No, they could not be verified, and in fact, I think they were lying to me. And Bob shoots people down all the time, so that guy's fucking standing on UFO stage lying bullshit.

I mean, you know, so no, he hasn't even, he was hoping one other employee would. However, I have had people that work at Area 51 confirm parts of Bob's story. One in particular saw him coming off the jet, or he says he saw him coming off the Janet flights. I said, will you go on record with me that you met Bob there on the tarmac? No. Why? Everything we did there was confidential. We couldn't even tell our wives, why would I go on record with you? And if he did go on record, he'd probably get harassed or arrested or. Yeah. He can't even tell you what he ate for lunch out there. You know that. So, and one of the guys I was real excited to talk with just recently passed away. He actually started the bar that was at Area 51. So everybody told the bartender stuff.

He started as a flower fund because no one would send flowers to wives when people died out there. But my point is people have come forward to George to me. A lot of people are lying, but it adds up over time, man. I got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story who had worked out at Area 51 that I confirmed were out there. Security people who had seen a disc under a tarp in a hangar. Different people had worked there at different times, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, who had little pieces of the story, not to confirm Bob. And then there was one that I pursued. I don't know if you

want to keep going on this, but I pursued this guy. I was trying to find in the early 90s people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there. And I found one. And he had been active in the nuclear weapons program. He had worked for EG&G. EG&G had the contract to manage Area 51 from the beginning all the way through the first 30 or 40 years of it. And so I started basically stalking the guy. One of his sons was a state senator, and he had told me, he confided to me, that you got to ask my dad about UFOs and aliens. And another son had been an FBI agent. So I stalked the guy, introduced myself. There were a couple of public events where I would just show up. And he finally got confident enough in me to invite me to his home. And he gets out these scrapbooks and he's showing

me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program. And I'm watching and taking notes and stuff. And suddenly he closes the book and he goes, you're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons, are you? I said, no, not really. And his wife walks in and she says, oh, you're not going to tell him that stuff, are you? And then he started telling me. And then over the course of two years, I would meet with him, have a cup of coffee somewhere. I couldn't take notes. I couldn't record anything. But he told me the story. Now, this guy actually is someone that you've had reference to on your show. Remember Annie Jacobson, her book about Area 51? Yeah. Well, it's the same guy. But the story that he

told me was different than what he told her. He said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there, that I could not go public with this until after he died, that they had craft, that it was in a special spot. Originally, it was at Indian Springs, which is now Creech Air Force Base. And then it was moved to Area 51 when 51 became active. And then there was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff. They didn't know where it was from. They didn't know how we obtained it. He said this thing was alive and that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died, I could have it. Well, suddenly, two or three years later, he totally changes his story. What had happened

was there was a congressional investigator. His name was Richard D'Amato, and he worked for Senator Robert Byrd. And he oversaw black budget projects. And he got onto this UFO story from Whitley Strieber. And so he was assigned, find out what the deal is. So he went around the country, talked to different researchers, and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51 and Lazar. So I told him a story, and I told him about this guy and he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it. And they had multiple conversations and they went to the founders of EG&G, the company, and it became a dead end. But after that congressional inquiry, this guy completely changed his tune. So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Andy Jacobson, that what crashed at Roswell was a Russian technology, Nazi technology, flown by

the Russians, containing little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mengele. Completely ridiculous, you know, story. But I think he got scared he was a real guy in a real position to know and um had shared with his family some of this information i think the story that he told me um was legit um but if he made the tape which i think he did i didn't get it how much time has been wasted talking about bullshit yeah in subject. Oh, centuries. Centuries. That's part of the problem, isn't it? People just make shit up.

Yeah. And the more fanciful and ridiculous, the better, unfortunately. People pay more to hear that and consume it. I had an operation one time after the Lazar thing. Somebody who was targeting me, and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens. And I'm getting letters from his, supposedly written by his neighbors, hey, you got to check this guy out, Dr., I'll just say X.

He was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night. I think he has something to do with aliens. And from out of the blue, then suddenly I am at a planetarium event, and I'm going to speak about UFOs at some event at this community college. And the guy shows up in a men's room. Hey, my name is Dr. X, standing there at the urinal. You're not doing a story about me, are you? I said, no. Who are you? What?

This was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there. And it went on for a couple of years. And of course, it was complete bullshit. When I finally did dig into his background, I was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life. And it was just like a fantasy role playing thing. At least I hope it was. So it's really hard to find credible people. I'm super lucky to have George as a mentor, because when I go left and I should be going right, he's like, I've already gone, you know, left a decade ago, idiot, you know, check this out. So, but I don't think a lot of people have somebody like George who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path. So you're right. This field of research or whatever,

it's filled with curiosity. That's the good thing. Human desire. Everybody, everybody in the world has a UFO story and knows somebody else who does. So it's a common link between us all. But it is filled with charlatans, kooks, freaks, and schizophrenics. Sure, you could say that. Mainly it's filled with good intended people who are curious too. But having people like George over 35 years, you know, not make a major mistake, report the news, break stories open. I'm grateful for that because it makes my job a lot easier. I can filter the bullshit much faster. So I'd say, yes, it sucks.

There's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field. But mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended. I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years. I mean, not only the information coming out of the government, because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people who are now interested. Because of your show, because of what's happened since the New York Times story, there's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it and are reading all the books

and trying to figure this stuff out for themselves and also going through the process of separating wheat from chaff. I'm glad to see that. There's a new energy in it. And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday. Well, as preposterous as we would like, if we want to sleep well at night, we'd like to pretend that it's impossible.

It doesn't make any sense. Just when you look up, you look up, you see infinity. just when you look up, you look up, you see infinity. You see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy. And this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. Of course there's something out there. It's really just of course. It's not if.

It's not do you think. It's of course. Of course. There's no fucking way there's not whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos the the real question is can they come here and the real question is if they have come here what where where from and how and and and how much how much interest do they have in us and how long have they been paying attention to us and how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that like you know i mean everybody's shit all over zechariah

sitchin's interpretations of the sumerian text but what if he's right like what if he's right what if the anunnaki really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate DNA to create people? And when you see those ancient Sumerian, those clay tablets that were created where you see like a large godlike creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap and this tiny thing and the the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the Sun in the center and all you realize this was made six thousand years ago like what is that like as much as people love to mock you know his his books what is that? What are these things?

What is this? I mean, obviously, we lost some technologies because, I mean, I'm not an architect, but the stones that are pressed together almost like they're molded all around the world in these pyramid structures and wall structures. It's my understanding that we cannot create that now today as such perfection. That's incredible if that's true. Is there a technology that we have figured out and then lost and we're just in a cycle of that? Or was there intervention? Well, it's most likely there's been some catastrophes that set humanity back. There's a lot of evidence that points to that.

There's a lot of evidence that points to that. There's a lot of evidence that points to this period. I mean, and Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that. On this podcast, if you go back and listen to those episodes, there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteors hitting Earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 years ago. And that is also when you go to this period of construction. There's things that look like they could be older that are built differently, particularly like in Egypt and a lot of other parts of the world. And then you find this layer of – what's it called? Tritonite? Trinitite?

What is it? Trinitite. Trinitite. Trinitite. This nuclear glass. They find that stuff all over when they do core samples. And it's always around 12,000 years. Right.

And then the almost instant changing of the ice age, the floods that followed. I mean, all the stuff that's detailed in the Bible, like the floods of Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts. like the floods of Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts and that these impacts happened and radically changed the climate, killed an enormous amount of people, probably set technology back thousands of years, and then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot. Could there have been survivors, a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us.

It's a breakaway civilization. Also an interesting question a lot of people have explored. I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? It's one of those, again, time-wasting motherfuckers where you could just – you could go down the rabbit hole to the end of time. You know, it's central human kind of questions. Where are we on the food chain?

Why are we here? What's the reason for this? And what is our reaction going to be if something visits? I mean, if something does really hover over the—if Trump wins the re-election and they're like, enough! Some gigantic, you know, city-sized UFO hovers over the White House. And we realize, oh, okay. I know. People say, we're ready.

We want to know. We're ready. We can handle it. Look at how they're handling COVID. Look at how freaked out people are over this. We're not ready for anything. Maybe if I saw that, what you're describing, I would love to see it. A mothership.

If I ever saw something like that, like Val Kilmer in that movie, The Roller Rink, if I ever saw that, that like Val Kilmer in that movie of the roller rink if I ever saw that I'd probably just be like cool job done that was fun studying that. The fuck you would! You'd be like we gotta get a camera crew out there immediately! You'd call Netflix, I got something! You'd be driving there with your window rolled down screaming out the window. I just love to see it man honestly I just I think it would freak me out more than anything. It's like, oh, shit. It's probably different seeing it than hearing all these stories from people, which I'm open to. Everybody's contacting me. That's fine.

Yeah. But seeing it yourself, yeah, I don't know how I would react, but maybe I would just be like, cool. It would be like you're on drugs, I think. I think it would be like you're on psychedelic drugs. I think seeing it would shift your perception so radically. I bet your brain would overload. I bet it would be really hard to wrap your head around just seeing it. Qualified reporters, you know, like policemen, this is one I keep bringing up, this guy,

man, his mind, when he saw this impossible thing, and I believe him, he did see what he said. believe him he he did see what he what he said he tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him but he struggles because it was so odd the craft it was just so odd so i don't know if you ever see one let me know though because oh i'll let everybody know believe me you would yeah i would yeah yeah i ain't seen shit yeah i'm like the inspector crusoe in my back turn all the time he'll probably see it before us. Maybe. Well, it would be really interesting. They're like, George, you've been looking for a long time. We'd like to talk to you.

I've wondered what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are, if somebody were to say, all right, we're going to show you. We're going to open the hangar doors. You can go in and see the sport model that Lazar touched. Right. You can never report on it again. Would you take that offer? Probably. Yeah, I think I would too.

I'd shut my mouth. I just wouldn't want to see it. I mean, selfishly. And I'm admitting this. Because you ain't going to find out if I say no, fuckers. If I say no, I have to tell everybody. Well, then they're not going to show me anyway. That's right. And if I do show it and I tell them,

then I tell people they're not going to show me anything else. Yeah. It's, um, it's a hard one. Do you have family members that you trust? You know, somebody that you trust that has reported something like that to you? No, no, nothing I could think of. Not like a good friend. Yeah. Trying to remember. No one, nothing, nothing where, you know, Nothing where – there's things that people could get wrong. There's experimental aircrafts. I remember the first time I saw a stealth bomber was after September 11th. We were working out in Palmdale doing Fear Factor, and that's near Edwards Air Force Base. And I saw one of those things fly by.

I was like, holy shit. It's the fucking – it's the Jedis or something. I mean, it just looked like, it looked like stormtroopers. Like, it didn't look like something from this world. When you see that, have you seen a stealth flight? It's crazy, man. You look at one of those things, like, that's a UFO. Like, I felt like we were in some sort of strange movie, a Star Wars movie.

It was wild seeing that thing fly across the sky. I was like, wow. But I knew what it was, you know. I think if I really saw an actual UFO, I bet your brain would play all kinds of tricks on you in terms of perception and trying to interpret it, especially if it was a very quick thing. It was like, you would roll that through your memory. Your memory would fuck with you all kinds of different ways. You would have all kinds of weird, distorted ideas of what you saw and how you saw it, what it exactly looked like.

It would be so hard to get a super accurate, like recallable memory of what that thing is. Some of the most interesting UFO cases are where high strangeness is mixed in. So it's not only seeing the craft, but then a lot of really weird peripheral stuff, like you're on mushrooms or something. Goblins, like in a shooting gallery, the Hopkinsville case, or other kinds of strange creatures and phenomena. Maybe it comes with the territory. Here's what I noticed. Someone will call me and they say, I don't want to be known. I just want to tell somebody, you seem accessible. Let me tell you my story. Don't report on it. Okay, cool. Got it. They'll tell me they saw a UFO, like a disc or something big, not like a ball of light,

something big. And I'll be like, okay, cool. Is that it? Is that where your story ends? And almost every time there's something much more personal, much more strange that occurred almost every time. So you have to imagine people are okay with reporting UFOs to you or whatever. They can say, I saw what I think UFO, but a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable time distortions creatures beings So, I don't know man if any of that's True, you know if these if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers this sort of thing then it gets more complicated And on that note gentlemen, we've passed the three-hour mark believe it or not shit. Yeah

Thanks for having me joe my pleasure thank you for everything you've done over all the years you've made a gigantic impact on on me and my perceptions of this whole phenomenon and uh i think in the ufo community at large and thank you also jeremy for your documentaries what brought me around thanks joe that's awesome man thank. Thank you. All right. Thank you, everybody. Bye.