The Joe Rogan Experience - #1520 - Dr. Debra Soh

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Dr. Debra Soh is a former sex researcher, neuroscientist, columnist, and podcast host. Her new book The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths about Sex and Identity in Our Society is now available.

three two one hello deborah hi we were just talking you're locked up in toronto you were thinking about flying here but they fill the planes now you were saying which is a little disturbing i did not know they're doing that yeah they usually would leave the middle seat open but as of about a month or so ago they book it fully now so i was super excited i'm I'm so sad that I can't be there with you because I've been counting down the days. And I was thinking, I have to at least be in LA to do Joe's show. But I was just a bit scared. Yeah, well, it's scary. It's weird.

I mean, how many people have you known that have caught it now? Actually, nobody. Isn't that wild? That's crazy. Everybody I know knows at least one or two people. I don't know anyone. So I'm very, very lucky. I'm up to nine friends.

Nine friends have gotten it. Wild. Yeah. Two of them got it bad. Yeah. Two of them got it really bad to the point where they were hospitalized. Wow. Yeah.

One of them was an older guy and one of them is a guy who was 45 who just was run. My friend Michael Yeo, who's just run down. was like just really exhausted from too much traveling and too much i mean it was really a crazy schedule that he was on and he wound up catching it he he had a bad he was hospitalized for a week oh no is he doing okay now he's fine now but his endurance is really low like his lung capacity suffered that's the thing because when this happened i felt like okay everything has to stop and i have to take care of myself just to me we take it for granted right when you're healthy but the minute something like this happens you this is something that i would have never even thought about are you taking a lot of vitamin d no i'm

actually everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D. I take omega. Well, that's good. But you should really, vitamin C and vitamin D are critical and zinc. Zinc is critical. But vitamin D in particular, they did a study, several studies actually, Dr. Rhonda Patrick was on the podcast talking about it. And she said that there was several studies that show that in the people that were in the ICU with COVID, more than 80% of them were insufficient when their vitamin D levels and only 4% were sufficient. Yeah. So it's not, it's, you know, it's not a prevent all it's not, it's not provable, you know, but there's, there's gotta be some sort of a correlation.

I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it. Cause I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money for this. I don't think they would. I think you're wrong. A few people would probably. But I've talked to enough people that I think vitamin D, zinc, and vitamin C seem to be critical. But just overall health is very important. I mean, it's one of the things that my friend Andrew Schultz was saying that was exposed by this pandemic.

The vulnerabilities of our economic system and the vulnerabilities of our health system. Like human beings have, there's too many of us that are just not well. We don't take care of ourselves. So when something like this happens, you don't just get sick, you get, you know, you could die from it.

Whereas the vast majority of people that get it, you know, they're not going to die from it, but there's enough that it's a significant number. It's scary stuff. Yeah. Who could have predicted that this was ever going to happen? Not me. So what's it like in Toronto these days?

It hasn't been bad. We're almost back to normal. So that's been very exciting. Yeah. For me, I've been writing this book for the last year. So my life hasn't actually changed that much, which probably sounds really crazy. But when you're writing a book, you're literally inside working all the time. Yeah. So explain to people what the book is. So the book is called The End of Gender. And before I go any further, I'm going to explain the title because some people, I think,

misinterpret what I, when I announced it on social media. Some people were getting upset because I think they thought I was taking a very, very far left progressive view. And I consider myself to be a liberal. I'm definitely not far left, but, you know, I have liberal values. I'm pro science. And so the end of gender, I think people thought that I meant I was saying that gender is basically whatever you want it to be. It's based solely in self-identification. You know, there's no tethering to biology. And that is not what I'm saying with the book at all. And I think if anyone's ever read my columns or seen my appearances or they listened to the talk that I had with you last time I was on your show, that's definitely not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the complete opposite, that the fact that science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender and that's leading to the demise of our understanding of it in an accurate way if you don't mind just just to start things off will you please give your credentials and tell people what you do yeah so i have a phd in sexual neuroscience research um i made the transition from academic being an academic sex researcher to being a journalist. So now I write about the science of sex and gender. I write about the politicization of science and academic censorship. And so now I have this book out and I can talk a bit about how I got here, if that would be helpful. Sure, sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So when I was doing my PhD, I very much, I loved being a sex researcher. I really thought I was going to stay in academia. And in the last few years, I noticed that there had been a change in the climate in terms of what people could study, what people could talk about as scientific experts. And one area in particular was about gender transition in children. So every single mainstream news piece was saying that for these children who say they're born in the wrong body,

the best approach for them would be early transitioning. So that means to take on a name, a new name, identify as the opposite sex, usually get a haircut, start dressing like the opposite sex. But from a scientific perspective, all of the research actually shows that most of these kids,

the vast majority of them are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood. They're not going to be transgender. And at that time, there was literally maybe one or two news articles that called into question this narrative of early transitioning. So I wrote an op-ed about this, citing the scientific research, and I asked my colleagues and mentors in academia, you know, what do you think? I knew that there was going to be some backlash to it. And one of my mentors said to me, because I said, should I wait until I have tenure to put something like this out? And he said, nowadays, tenure is not going to protect you. So that sealed my decision. I published the piece. And then from there, I made the transition to journalism and I haven't looked back.

It's a very strange time when it comes to talking about certain subjects, because it doesn't matter what the science is. There's a there are specific narratives that you have to adhere to in today's climate. You know, I, like you, am also left. But when you when it comes to saying like far left like far left is a different thing now than it used to be far left used to be i mean 10 just 10 15 years ago it was a different animal and i knew a lot of people that are far left now far left i associate with lunacy it's like i look at it the same way i look at far right i look at far right extremists and far left extremists but something happened where far left ideology has permeated our culture when it comes to gender. And I don't understand it. I don't, if you don't adhere to

this ideology, people want to say that you're, you have no compassion, you're evil, you're bigoted. I had Abigail Shearer on the podcast recently, and she has a book. I love Abigail. She's great, and she's very brave. And I saw what happens when you go against this narrative by having her on. Men's Health wrote a piece about me saying I'm fanning the flames of hate because she was talking about a 4,000% increase, 4,000% increase in teenage girls identifying as trans and rapid onset gender dysphoria, is real i mean this is this is a real scientific 70 times 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of people identifying as transgender that's amazing um she was talking about this in this very specific way talking about awkward teenage girls and about how these girls have, you know, really odd situations in terms of the way they deal with people socially. And then all of a sudden

they're praised for deciding that they're trans. And then they get these clusters of friends that also decided they're trans, which is very strange. It's just a very strange phenomenon, but you're not even allowed to talk about it. So if men's health, which is, it's a fucking men's magazine, is going to write articles calling you a hateful person because you're discussing it. There was no hate in that podcast at all. It was just discussing it. Like what is causing this? Why is this? And what can be done? And why are we so quick to just i mean we we can assume that people are troubled in all sorts of different ways but we can't assume they're ever troubled when it comes to gender it's it's very bizarre i think what you were saying with why it's gone

so far left i do think a lot of this is coming from empathy which is a good thing and i i have to say you know know, I, with regard to the issue of transitioning children, I do support traditioning in adults. I think it can help adults who are transgender. I think if you were an adult, it's your decision, it's your body, it's no one's place to tell you what to do. But I think a lot of this is coming from, so I grew up in the gay community and I remember seeing how homophobic people could be toward my friends. And I think things have changedophobic people could be toward my friends. And I think things have changed. Things have gotten better in some ways. I think homophobia still exists. And we can talk about that because I do talk about how that affects a lot of what

we're seeing in the book. But I think for a lot of people, they look at that and they say, okay, we were wrong about that. We were wrong to treat gay people differently. We were wrong to say that being gay is something you can change. So now they've gone completely in the opposite direction saying, okay, no matter what anyone says with regard to their identity, with regard to their gender, this is something that we should not challenge. We should fully support. And if you question it in any way, even in the most nuanced or sensitive way, as I try to, and as I think you do, that's still not acceptable. Yeah. that's what's strange. It's an ideology.

It's rigid. It's like a religion. It is. It is. I think I find people who are, you know, middle of the road, they're not sure what to think. If they read my work or they talk to me, they say, oh, wow, I never realized that. I didn't know the science said that. And they change their perspective.

wow, I never realized that. I didn't know the science said that. And they changed their perspective. But I think for some people, if they are very much invested in the identity or very invested in activism or for whatever reason, this ideology means something to them, it's you cannot, you just cannot reason with them.

It doesn't matter what the science says, they will find something to pick at. And especially with desistance, which is that the research I was mentioning where it shows that most kids will not feel gender dysphoric anymore when they reach puberty, some people cannot accept it

and they will call you transphobic, they'll call you bigoted. And I don't think I'm any of those things. I'm really just trying to help prevent these children from making potentially a very bad decision that they're going to regret. And especially now, we're seeing in the UK that this is happening where more detransitioners are saying, this was something I regret. This was a mistake. Why did the adults not challenge me? I really think, so right now we're in August, 2020. I think within the next

five years or maybe a little bit longer, we're going to be seeing an explosion of children coming out and saying i did not want to transition this was a mistake and it's really going to be awful well we're already seeing that there's a lawsuit that was uh very prominent in the uk recently about a young girl who transitioned to be do you know the lawsuit i'm talking about i do yeah kira bell yeah i mean it's it's heartbreaking because they she's essentially ruined her body to the point where she's not going to be able to have children. In many cases, a lot of these girls can't have orgasms ever again.

No, exactly. But I think in North America, we are still very much in denial about this. Whenever I'm on a show, if I'm on TV and I talk about this, the backlash after is just crazy. And I'm thinking, people need to wake up. I'm trying to stop this from happening, right? The whole point of writing this book and saying these things is trying to prevent what's about to happen. Yeah. The backlash is, it's, it's very strange because a lot of the backlash is from trans folks and it seems that they equate any criticism or any, any examination of even children, even small children transitioning to transphobia. You must hate.

And I get there has to be some trans people that as children knew that they were women or they were the opposite sex, that they were in the wrong body. There has to be. Right. I don't disagree with that. I think we both don't. The question is how many and how do they make that decision and how many are actually being influenced by other factors external. Children are very malleable and that's part of the problem with making lifelong decisions as a six-year-old. If you're a six-year-old male and you decide that you're a female and you go through the transition-old. If you're a six-year-old male and you decide that you're a

female and you go through the transition and then you realize you're a gay man later in life, there's no recourse. There's nothing you can do to rectify that. That's what's terrifying about this and that you're not allowed to talk about it. You're not allowed to say that even. Right, right. And when I do point that out, people say that i'm using the gay community to try and as a shield or something like that but medical professionals need to be the ones to do their job because it is their job they should be doing proper assessments with these children and adults too to determine you know what is the best way for it for you and that's the only way they can really determine on a case-by-case, whether transitioning is going to help somebody, but they can't do their jobs right now. Everyone I know

that is ethical in the field has left or they stopped working with these patients because they don't feel they can do their job properly. So what you have instead is the people who are currently operating are activists and they will really facilitate whatever patient wants them to do, whether or not that may or may not be the right thing for them. Yeah. How did we get to this point? Now, how did we get to this point? First of all, in academia, you come from academia. How did we get to this point where some subjects cannot be discussed?

Where, like, you were talking to that other professor and they were saying, even if you get tenure, this is not going to protect you. Like, what happened? get tenure this is not going to protect you like what what happened within sex research in particular i feel like sex research was the the carry in the coal mine because we saw this coming decades ago in that one professor michael bailey at northwestern university there's been a long history that's ugly between sex researchers and transgender activists and michael bailey wrote a book i think it was 2003 that really enraged some activists. And I have to say, trans activists don't speak for all transgender people. I have many trans people who've reached out to me over the years telling me that they actually agree with me.

But I feel activists tend to be the most vocal. They tend to be the most aggressive. And so after researchers saw what happened to Mike, I mean, I, in the book, I talk about the things that they did to him. Some of them were very unethical and really, they really tried to ruin him professionally and, and his personal reputation as well. And so after that people said, well, I'm not touching the subject because it's just not worth it. And so anyone who has tried to counter trans activists since then also face really serious repercussions. So I think that's been part of it. And I think also more broadly with this ideology,

that students are being taught this and they graduate, they go out into the real world, they get jobs. And a lot of people, even five years ago, I would say dismissed a lot of this ideology, especially around gender. They would say, that's only in academia. That is not something that's actually gonna affect me in my real life, but here it is now. It affects everybody. There's no way. That is not something that's actually gonna affect me in my real life.

But here it is now. It affects everybody. There's no way that this is not affecting you. I think it's just a question of how much do you pay attention to it? People send me messages. They tell me about when they have training at work. They tell me about their kids' education.

Like at the book, I don't just talk about transitioning children. I talk about the idea that gender is not a social construct. It is not a spectrum. I talk about how there is a relation between gender identity and sexual orientation, which you're also supposed to not say, apparently. I talk about sex differences, you know, and these are all things that are considered taboo. And I don't understand.

I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation. We're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people. In fact, I'm always very clear to say that it doesn't. Well, I think this is one of the reasons why you're so important, because you're obviously a very intelligent, kind person, and you're not a hateful person, and you're not in any way discriminating. You're looking at this as a scientist, and you're looking at this as a person who is're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science, particularly when it comes to

really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender. I would love to talk to you about what you just had, though, when you said that there's not a spectrum when it comes to gender. That's a common narrative. So what do you mean by that? Like there's not a spectrum? to gender. That's a common narrative. So what do you mean by that? Like there's not a spectrum. So there are two genders. And so gender, for 99% of us, our biological sex is our gender. Biological sex is determined by gametes, which are either eggs or sperm. So there are no intermediate gametes. So gender is either male or female. So this, I do not think, validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people. I think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities. We don't have

to reconceptualize what gender or sex are. And also for intersex people in particular, most of them want to live within the binary. They want to live as either male or female. They don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else. I mean, this is what's being published in scientific papers now. They refer to gender as quite literally a galaxy. So, I mean, it's ridiculous. That's pretty crazy. Not just a spectrum, but a galaxy. 250 billion types. Is that what it's like? Like all the stars? That's crazy. When you, there's just two genders, first of all, that's going to enrage people, right? But second of all, you can see that there are very feminine men and very masculine women. And if that is true, what accounts for that? what what accounts for that it goes back to the prenatal environment so i definitely don't deny that they're gender atypical people i as a woman i look very feminine but i'm actually very gender atypical i've always felt more masculine and even to this day i feel much more masculine

than wait a minute wait hold on a second you feel masculine uh-huh really that's crazy you don't you would never know oh my god you don't even seem remotely masculine. Like what determines that you are masculine? I would say, well, from a young age, I'd always been more like boys. I looked like a boy when I was younger. I've always just, my friends were always boys and guys. And I've always felt, I've just always felt more like a man, just like you feel like a man, right? Gender is one of those things in terms of how we describe it is so personal. And that's why I feel it's so important to focus on the evidence because without that, what do you really have?

So what it comes down to is testosterone exposure in the womb. Right, but how are you like a man? If you see, well, how can I say this? It's hard for me to not go in and digging into personal examples. Right. But I would just say, I've always been more like boys. If you look at how boys behave and how girls behave,

I've always been more like the boys. Okay. Like in like your interests and you're in the fast cars behavior. I was, I'm into fighting, right? I, I've been a martial artist.

When I was young, especially, I used to always get into fist fights with the boys, and I would actually win. But that's hilarious, because you seem very feminine to me. That's very odd. People always say that to me. Yeah, for sure. So this spectrum that does exist, even though there are two genders, in your opinion, a male gender well it's not in my opinion it's not in my opinion it is okay but that okay scientifically right there's two genders but this is a obviously a hot button subject right if just saying there's two genders will get you canceled oh i know i know we can talk about the non-binary movement

because i'm actually very concerned in terms of what that movement is about. And I am all for, listen, I'll use whatever pronoun someone wants me to use. I'll be respectful. My issue is when people, again, say that this is backed by science when it isn't. And when we're also not talking about

what it's actually about. So for a lot of people who are identifying as non-binary, I think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia. So a lot of people who identify as non-binary, I think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia. So a lot of people who identify as non-binary, especially among people who were born male, they will normally come out as gay, as a gay man, and then decide to be non-binary.

Or for people who were born female, many of them don't, they feel a lot of discomfort around their bodies, the changes they experience being a woman. They don't like the attention that they're getting. They don't want to be sexualized. For some of them, they get, they have exposure to pornography at a young age and they, they think that that is actually what sex is going to be like. And they think, I don't want that. So how do I avoid that? Well, if I be, if I become something other than a woman, I will not have to experience this. And no one is saying to them, you know, number one, pornography.

I'm definitely not anti-porn. You know, I used to write for a very prominent men's magazine. So I have no issue with that. I just think we have to be able to have a conversation saying, you know, if you feel different, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a woman. Or with regards to pornography, it's entertainment. So that's not what sex is going to be like when you get there. Right. Let's start with the non-binary aspect. Do you think that, I mean, I know people that claim to be non-binary and I'm trying to say

this in a nice way. I think some of them, it's a cool thing to say you are. There's a thing today where if you can say you're non-binary, like, oh, it's part of being woke. You know, it's part of, I mean, not saying that there aren't people who don't feel like they don't fit into either male nor female. Or maybe they feel asexual or maybe they just don't feel like whatever the models that exist in society apply to them. They don't feel like they connect with those models. But the term non-binary, how recent is that? Like how long has that been around? It's been around for decades.

But I would say in terms of the popularity, one study showed that among millennials about 10 percent identify as a third gender so this includes you know non-binary gender neutral you know a gender so it's really picked up recently right sorry i'm sorry it's good we're it's hard to do skype right it's kind of a woke thing i think it's a way for some people to signal their politics and i think i get it i get that feeling of you don't quite feel like maybe you're as if you're born female that you're really feminine or girly but i think the only way to fight back against those stereotypes is to say i'm still a woman right i don't need to be super girly to be a woman and similarly if you're

a man if you're a feminine man you can still be a man and be a feminine man there's nothing wrong with that right but that's where people feel like we should be describing it as a spectrum that's that's where they feel like if you look at you know jason momoa versus um andy dick okay like obviously these are two very different kinds of men and that's where people would apply the concept of a spectrum. Right. But why can we not just say they're both men? I don't understand why just because someone is slightly different that they suddenly need to be categorized as as they would have to reconceptualize what it means to be a man just because they're different types of men. Yeah, I feel like that's very outdated. different types of men yeah i don't feel like that's very outdated that's it's interesting because i don't know why they do that i just think that for some people it gives them comfort to think that they are not exactly the same as other men who are different than them in radical ways like

more masculine or more more feminine and they're more comfortable with this concept of a spectrum there's clearly a physical spectrum right there's There's a spectrum in terms of body types and ectomorphs and endomorphs and mesomorphs, and there's a spectrum in terms of height and size and weight and all these different things. I think a lot of people would like there to be a spectrum in terms of gender. The sense I get from people who identify this way is that there's some sort of discomfort in their birth sex. And I think if we could talk about this openly, that there's some sort of discomfort in their birth sex. And I would, I think, you know, if we could talk about this openly and that's what they still decided. My issue also with this movement is for some people, they go on and they will get surgery.

So double mastectomies are very common among people who are born female who identifies non-binary. And I'm concerned about that because some of these people are very young when they're deciding to get these surgeries done. So if we could have this conversation and if you know psychologists could do their job and determine is this really the best outcome for you then that's again their business but we can't have this conversation at all we're not talking about whether there might be other reasons why someone feels this way and that maybe just opening your mind to other possibilities would actually be helpful uh i hear what you're saying i think we can have this conversation and i think that's why and that maybe just opening your mind to other possibilities would actually be helpful. I hear what you're saying.

I think we can have this conversation, and I think that's why we're having it. And I think— Oh, you and I? Yes. You're very brave to have me on. We are having this conversation, but I feel like most people in the general population would be horrified. They'd be scared. I don't think it's most people in the general population. I think it's a small percentage of people that are very angry at these

conversations. And I think the reason why is because they believe that these conversations equal hate, or these kind of conversations equal either homophobia or transphobia. I think the problem is the existence of that at all. If there no homophobia if it did not exist it was no transphobia if it didn't exist if everyone like i know that you are not those things you're not homophobic or transphobic nor am i and i think if we all knew this is one of the reasons why you and i can have this conversation we know there's there's no hate here if there's no hate here. If there's no hate, you can talk about it for what it really is. But when you have this conversation, the problem with woke culture is that it's automatically assumed that because you question the narrative, that you're doing so from a discriminatory point of view. You're discriminating, you're doing it from some sort of a prejudice, you're doing it with a negative feeling about the subject. And I don't think that's accurate. And I think most people recognize that it's not accurate. It's a small, very vocal minority of

people that object. And this is where the problem lies, is that the people that you were referring to as the activists and it's not even all the activists it's just the really angry ones are so vocal about it and they go so far out of their way to attack that it's not a subject that you could even breach and i mean because i just had this podcast the other day it was only a couple weeks ago with abigail and now i'm having it with you like oh my god it's, it's going to compound. It's going to be crazy. But listen, you and I had scheduled this quite a while ago. The Abigail thing came up fairly last minute because she had been on Bridget Phetasy's podcast and no one else wanted to have her on. And she has this book about a subject that's very, and as a person who has daughters,

this is to me, it's a very important subject. I also have friends who have daughters this is to me is a very important subject I also have friends who have daughters and their daughter's friends are doing this they're going through this whole transition and they my friend who has this daughter he's like I don't think your friends are trans I think they are they're caught up in this whole movement and when there's four or five of them that are deciding that they're trans like this is it're trans, it doesn't seem like the numbers match up. It seems like there could be some other influences here. This could be something that seems like a cool thing to do. They're all getting praised at school.

This is a real psychological and cultural phenomena. This is not a hateful thing to discuss. And this is why I'm pushing back against it. And this is why I think it's so important that people like you, who are academics, like people say, well, hey, you want to talk about trans, why don't you have an expert on? That's what you are. You actually are an expert. academia, and I'm very fortunate. I'm so, so grateful to the editors who will work with me, people who have me on their show like you. I am free to say what I think, but whereas if you are tied to any sort of academic institution, medical organization, even scientific organizations, you cannot say these things, even though they are backed fully by the science. And the thing is,

this should not be a partisan issue. So, you know, in terms of you're saying that no one was having Abigail on, I'm actually amazed that liberal journalists and liberal outlets, they very, very few of them will touch this subject. And it really doesn't matter what your politics are. At the end of the day, it's about what is right for these kids or what's right for anybody who's identifying this way. It's not about being left or right. Well, I think I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think the issue is most people that have the kind of reach that maybe my podcast has are part of a large organization. And when you're a part of a large organization, there's just so much politics involved. There's so much, there's so many different influences and there's so many different people that have opinions about this that are based on the current narrative. And that, you know, you cannot disagree. You must follow the ideology. And if you don't, you must be hateful.

You must be a bigot. There must be something wrong with you. And that's where I'm really very thankful that there's people like you that push back on this, that are brave enough to do that. Even with rapid onset gender dysphoria. So, I mean, this is documented in research, right? And even still, that's considered a quote unquote myth. People say, like I write about this in the book, people are saying that people who decide to detransition, they were not really trans or they didn't really have gender dysphoria or, you know, they just dismiss them. And I'm thinking this movement especially is so much into how you feel and your live, quote unquote, lived experience and being validated for who you are.

So how can you say that to a group of people who say this is what I experienced. You know, they're completely, and the way they're being also ignored by the medical professionals and told that essentially if they change their mind, well, that's your problem. You deal with it now. And the detransitioners I talked to, I'm really, really aghast at what is happening because they really have nowhere to turn. It's also the options if you want to transition in terms of what's available today in 2020, they're, I'm trying to say this gently. They're very surgically crude. Like you, you have to, there has to be cutting involved. There has to be anesthesia. There's a lot going on. I can't wait for the day where, whether it's through CRISPR or some other form of genetic manipulation, you really can become a woman or you really become a biological man or a biological

woman where we can, we have a grasp of the biology to the point where science can actually alter the person's chromosomes, alter who they are. I mean, that's going to be fantastic. I think that's going to eliminate so much and so many problems. But I mean, you know, what are we hundreds of years away from that? I mean, I don't know. But for now, my fear is what you have said previously. And you said earlier on this podcast that you're going to see a wave of lawsuits. Yeah. And it's going to be really, really sad. And I think these children will be saying, why did my parents allow me to do this?

Why did medical professionals not question me, not stop and think about this? I mean, children say all kinds of things. And it's really scary to me that adults are taking the things that they say at face value. Yeah. When Abigail told me that in some places you can self-diagnose as being trans at as young as 15 and you can go to certain... Yeah, you can get... Because medical consent, it depends on the age of medical consent.

So in some places, like I believe Oregon, it's like 15 yeah so you can go without without parental consent and even still a lot of cases these interventions are started even younger if the parents the parents will sign off on it i've heard of girls people born female as young as age 12 getting double mastectomies wow wow um the thing Wow. Wow. The thing that drove me crazy is the fact that you don't even have to have any counseling, anything. You self-diagnose and they'll give you testosterone. I mean, that seems insane. That seems like there's some sort of an agenda. I mean, whether it's just woke ideology or whatever it is that would allow a doctor to think that's a good idea. I just, I don't understand what kind of a lack of understanding of young people. I mean, you're not even fully formed. Your frontal lobe isn't even fully formed and you're making these radical

decisions at 15 years of age. With testosterone too. So I want to, I spoke with Buck Angel. I interviewed him for the book. He was amazing. And he actually has a website. I want to make sure I get it right. Actually, I should have, I think it's ftmhealth.com. He has information because he was saying to me how transgender care and health really needs to be improved. And a lot of medical professionals will prescribe testosterone and they do not fully understand. One of the side effects is uterine cramping and atrophy. So for these individuals, when they start taking it, they'll be cramping. They'll be in a lot of pain.

They'll be bleeding, and they don't know why. And it's due to the low estrogen. Well, I've had Buck Angel on the podcast before. I love that dude. And that's a perfect example of, you know, that's a trans man who is like clearly that's way better for him than to be a female i mean he's happy it's like when you're around him like oh that makes sense like you're a man and you know we even had a conversation on the podcast would you refer he asked me would you refer to me as a man i'm like yeah of course i would like you're a man like because you're not

born a man biologically doesn't mean i don't think you're a man. I mean, it's covered in tattoos and he's jacked. He looks like a dude. Seems like a dude. Talks like a dude. I mean, I'm super comfortable with that. I've, I'm not a bigot, but I am confused. I'm confused by this narrative and the fact that everyone is being really bullied into adhering to it. And it's, I don't understand the motivation for a lack of nuance and discussion. That's what drives me crazy. And for some reason, people think that if you are not personally trans, this should not be a subject that you cover. And I'm like, listen, I'm a parent. I see what this is. Like children are, they're so easily influenced and by so many different factors, the idea, and

whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you, you can't tell me that there's not, that nothing is happening to these kids that is is is changing and affecting the way they perceive things which is fine to for the most part but when it comes to radical life-altering decisions like changing your gender at 12 years old like fuck are you sure are you sure this is the right move and why can't i this? Like, why is this so goddamn taboo? And the reason why it's so taboo is because they want to bully you into not talking about it. Because when you do talk about it, it's exposed that it's not rock solid. That it is strange.

And that there is a problem. There are really trans people. No one's in denial of that. You're not in denial. I'm not in denial. I'm 100% comfortable with, I want adults to be able to do whatever they want, but we're not talking about adults. You're talking about babies. You're talking about children. And that's when things get very,

very strange to me. I just don't understand how many people adhering to this. And I think they're doing it out of cowardice. I think they're doing it out of fear of repercussions of these discussions. Even if you are clear in your intentions and you're not hateful and you have no, there's no bigotry in your heart. It doesn't matter. They don't want you talking about it because they have a very specific narrative and they don't want anyone to stray from that. And if you do stray from that, they'll attack you. And I get it. You know, I get some of the concerns in that. Yes, this information could potentially be used to hold trans people back. Some people could take this information and say, OK, well, this means that no one should be allowed to transition ever. But I think, you know, we have

to be we have to be realistic about it. And if you hide this information, what it does then for people who are not in favor of trans rights, they're going to find it and say, see, this is why. This is why they hide this information, because it feeds into whatever negative ideas they have about the community. I'm totally open. I'll put it out there. I'm totally happy to talk to anyone from the community who would like to speak with me. I would love to build bridges and build understanding. I just feel like there's a

lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust. And I understand where that's coming from, but at the same time, I don't know how else to solve this issue. Scientists also can't even do this research now because people get upset and say, if you are not from this community, you should not be doing this research. And the whole purpose of the scientific method is to parse out any confounding factors. So it really should not matter what your identity is. If you're doing a study properly and rigorously, the findings that you find are as close of an approximation of the truth as you can get. So it doesn't matter if you're part of the group you're studying or not. I understand, again, fears. I think some of the concern is that scientists have an agenda and they're doing this research as a way to invalidate trans people or something like that. But I think you have to have faith that that's not, especially in this climate, there's no way someone can get away with doing anything like that now.

And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the narrative that activists want. Yeah, it's a very strange time, and I don't know where we go from here. I mean, I never thought we would be here in a place where there were these taboo subjects that are critical to the development and the growth of human beings, and you can't discuss them. I mean, and how do we get past this i don't see a path out i don't see a map of the territory that makes sense to me i think what's going to happen unfortunately is that more of these children will be detransitioning and changing their minds to the point where society is not going to be able to ignore it that's what i see coming so So let's talk numbers. So what I was

saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of kids that have experienced rapid onset gender dysphoria within the last 10 years. What exactly are the numbers again? So within one study in particular of the individuals who were surveyed, the children, 40% of them had a friend group that had at least half of them identifying as transgender. And so this worked out to be 70 times what you would see in the general population. And I don't know how you can look at that and not think something is going on here. There's something else going on here. It can't just be social acceptance because if it were, why is it we don't see this also happening in boys?

Why do we not see this happening across different ages? It's very specific to adolescent girls and young women. Now, you're a woman and you're a woman who, in many ways, you say you identify as being more masculine. What do you think it is about growing up as a woman, and maybe you could speak to this because you did grow up and felt more masculine, what do you think it is that makes women more vulnerable to this? I think, so I have been critical of feminist orthodoxy and, you know, I'll call things as I see it, but I do think on some level sexism does still exist in society i don't think it's so terrible that women can't pursue what they want to achieve

in life but i think for young women especially when they can encounter situations like this or they experience certain things they don't like because they are female if they have the option of opting out of that why wouldn't you you? I feel like I almost can't blame them because there are certain things that women have to deal with that men don't have to deal with and vice versa. I think there are certain things that boys and men have to deal with growing up that women don't have to deal with. But I think it's because this is so socially acceptable now. And they're also, like you said, they're praised when they decide that they want to come out as a man or they want to identify as a third gender or they don't want to be female.

And I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of female rights and gender equality, why are we not saying, again, it's okay to be a woman and it's okay to feel this way and let's support you in that instead of abandoning ship? Do you think this is a phase that culture is going through with this particular population or you think with the leap in rapid onset gender dysphoria do you think that in many ways it might actually be connected to transphobia in that because there is transphobia people people are actively trying to combat it. So they're praising people who are trans, which might encourage people who are socially awkward to think they are because they get encouraged for that, that they get. And then maybe when we reach

a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted, just like people with blue eyes and brown eyes and whatever no one cares anymore is that what it's going to take for for things to balance out for us to actually find out and is there a spectrum when it comes to trans people are there people that are mildly trans just like there's people that are you know mildly masculine or people that are like a very very feminine but also a man uh okay well let me start with the first part of your question was why do people go along with this i think the part of it might be because it's more socially acceptable right and people don't want to rock the boat i think other people they mean well and they think that this is this is going to help

the community and to tell people who counter this narrative that they're hateful or whatever that this is going to somehow bring about positive change um this i forget i missed the second part of your question i forgot it already but but then and then if there's if being trans is a spectrum i don't know because i'm not trans so i don't want to speak for trans people but i i think there are some people who for whom transitioning is the right choice. And I think for some people, maybe they will be able to grow comfortable. Right. And we can't talk about that. That's seen as transphobic. And also this whole conversation about conversion therapy when there is no such thing as conversion therapy for gender identity.

There's conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and doesn't work. therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and it doesn't work. But if a clinician sits down with a child who says that they want to be the opposite sex or they're gender dysphoric and they ask them what else is going on in your life to better understand that, that's called conversion therapy now. And now that's being banned. I think that's been banned in something like 20 states. So now clinicians, again, can't do their job that's a critical part of figuring out who's going to benefit from transitioning so conversion therapy uh when we think about it we usually think about it when in terms of gay people right like pray the gay away that kind of shit right that doesn't work of course yeah well it's usually run by gay guys too so it's usually religion involved right um but conversion therapy

in terms of of children like what what does that entail you mean in terms of when you were saying children with gender dysphoria yes well okay so they activists and now this is being written into law it's called conversion therapy because it sounds scary. It's not the same thing as conversion therapy for sexual orientation because again, sexual orientation is biological, so it can't be changed. But for gender, for young children,

especially who say they feel like they're the opposite sex, gender is, that can change over time as we see in the research that they will outgrow those feelings, right? So it's not appropriate to call that conversion therapy because that's a natural process that would have happened on its own. So for a clinician to sit down and just try to understand that, it should not be seen as somehow harmful, right? But it is seen as harmful. It's seen as abusive.

So if some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks them what's going on in your life, how do you feel, that's considered conversion therapy? So are they supposed to just, on this subject only, automatically go along with everything the child says? Whereas you wouldn't do it with any other issue that the child had that required therapy. No, exactly. But that is what's happening. There's no differential diagnosis because someone might present with say gender dysphoria, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why they might feel that way. You know, last time I spoke to you, we talked about how autism can play a big role in that sometimes people with autism, and I do think people with autism deserve love and respect, but sometimes one of the symptoms is fixating and having particular interests. And so for these children especially, they might go through phases of being really into

a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby. And then gender might also be one of these things. And my colleagues who are clinicians have noticed that, that for some of these kids, they fixate on gender for a bit and then they move on to something else. What was your motivation for writing this book? Like what got you to actually sit down in front of the computer and start banging on the keys? All the questions that people have been asking me over the years about these subjects and the fact that I see so much misinformation being ingrained in our society, it's not even being questioned now. So say something like gender is a social construct. In 2017, James Damore wrote his Google memo, his infamous Google memo. I wrote a column for the

Globe and Mail defending it. And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse. I see that reported everywhere. Gender is a social construct. And then there's no quantitative evidence. There's no citations, nothing to back it up. People will just say that and then they'll go on to whatever else they were saying. And this will be in scientific papers sometimes. This will be in journalism. And I'm thinking, that's not factually accurate. So for me, it's this feeling that I get, I think for some people who deny this science, particularly around gender, it's coming from possibly good intentions that they think this is what we need to do to help move society forward.

But I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that. Because when you try to hide the truth, you try to suppress reality, it doesn't go away. to suppress reality it doesn't go away and i think we can both agree that a lot of this narrative comes from this desire to avoid the criticism desire to avoid the angry mob yeah i think so so when you say who wants to deal with that yes who wants to deal with that no no one does so when you say gender is a social construct people go thank you and then they're like good you've you've complied you've complied with the narrative and that's what it instead of going well what do you mean by that what do i mean by that what are you a bigot and then all of a sudden it's chaos right then people are angry gender as a social construct is a weird

thing to say you know and i've i've had weird conversations with people about it where they deny the difference between male and female. And I'm like, okay, well, if you buy a puppy and it's a boy puppy or a girl puppy and you wanted a boy puppy, but it's a girl puppy, do you complain? Like what happens there? Do you say gender's a social construct? No, man, that's a girl puppy, bro. I mean, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings. With human beings, we've decided that we a girl puppy, bro. I mean, it's, it's, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings with human beings. We've decided that we are so complex. We're so weird that all the rules of standard biology that apply to all the other species on planet earth do not apply to us. Yeah. And then what's also frustrating is that people will then say, Oh, the newest science

shows that this is true. And I'm thinking, what, what science are you talking about? Right. But people will usually at that point say, okay, well, I guess the newest science shows that this is true. And I'm thinking, what science are you talking about? But people will usually at that point say, okay, well, I guess the newest science shows that. So what can you say? So in the book, that's the thing. I provide citations to all the science so you can read it and make up your own mind. And if people are telling you something to the contrary, you can say, well, go look at this science. Yeah. That is a lovely one that people love to say. The newest science. You can't just say that like, but you can with a lot of people you can and they go, Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know

about that new science. Like science is just data. Science is repeating things and proving that they're repeatable, like showing patterns, showing information. Like you can't say the newest science without citing it. No. And you know, one of my close friends is Josh Barnett. And through the process of writing this book, I would say to him, I feel like I'm standing outside and pointing at the sky and saying the sky is blue and people are getting mad at me for saying that the sky is blue. That's what, that's what it feels like. And that's what it's going to be like. I think when, when people start reading this book and I ask anyone who, because the things I say are misconstrued all the time. People either, I think, are misrepresenting what I say. There are certain things that people say

I say that I would never say. And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about where I stand on these issues. Because I think a lot of the time people, especially activists or people who are really invested in this, the way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda. And I'm thinking if you really care about these populations that you claim to care about, why would you not actually be going after the people who are actually hateful, who are actually saying the things that you claim I say? And I think what a lot of it is, is about clout. It's not actually about making positive change. Yeah. Anybody who thinks gender is a social construct needs to meet Josh Barnett. That's a man. Okay. There's no argument there. He identifies as one right now.

He definitely does. Yeah. I mean, I think we're living in a very confusing time. And I think all the reasons that we discussed earlier in terms of the blowback that people get and in terms of when you're compliant, the support that you get is all influencing the way people behave. And this willingness to go along with that narrative because you're terrified of being criticized. You're terrified of being attacked. That's where we find ourselves. And this is not the left that I know. This is what's so strange. I mean, I guess I'm old. I mean, I'm 52. When I was young, the left was tolerant, open-minded, and absolutely committed to freedom of speech. That doesn't seem to be where we're at now. We've gotten into some really radical place where the left is now, they've almost weaponized

a lot of left-wing ideological values to combat right-wing values. It's like they've gotten more loony to deal with loony people on the right and don't even realize they've become their own enemy. They've become something that the left was never. The left was always, when I was a young person, was always the most tolerant of the groups. And it just doesn't seem to be the case now. It seems to be that they're only tolerant if you follow the ideology that they follow. And if you don't there's no discussion about it you're you're a hateful person and there's this immediate hot take

you're you hate you do this there's it's bigotry it's that is there's no room for discussion information no room for actual science no no room for understanding the nuance of psychology and and of human beings. Yeah. And I don't think it's helpful because yeah, I think the far right is, is a concern, but the response to that or the solution to that is not to go to double down and go completely in the opposite direction where you're just as insane. Because I think most liberals, most liberals don't feel like the far left really encompasses anything that they stand for. And it's, in fact, alienating them from these issues.

Yeah, I would agree with that entirely. There's so many of us that are on the left that are so confused now. I feel like we're people without countries. Like, this is not, you know what I mean? It's like, well, who am I now? Because I'm not these people that want to defund the police and light the federal buildings on fire. So what am I? You know, you have to be that to be left.

Have you had any conversations with people, trans activists or any people that opposed you or angry at you where you were able to sway them? I had one conversation. I wrote in the book, actually there was one one activist who was willing to sit down with me and I interviewed her and I was really grateful for that she was lovely she was very civil with me we disagreed about basically everything but I found it was a helpful conversation because I do think about I think about the feedback you know I try to follow what people angrily tweet at me and, you know, comment on my work and things like that, because I do think it's important to be open to other perspectives. Um, I don't know that I'm able to change anyone's mind, but that's okay. You know, I think the evidence speaks for itself.

And I think if people want to listen to that, that's their business. And if not, that's fine too. But I do find, like I said, people who are, who aren't sure they haven't made their mind up yet seem to be a little bit more, um, they appreciate the information, you know, whether or not they agree with me or not. I think they're just grateful to that. Okay. There's, there's someone out there who is offering some information that's not being covered for whatever reason. Now, when you sat down with this trans activist or this person and she disagreed with you on all these things, what were they specifically that she disagreed on? Well, with the pediatric transition, that's one big point. Also things like the discussion of trans women and whether trans women should be considered women full stop. And I do consider

trans women to be women, but I also think there are some differences and I don't think it should be considered hateful to point them out. I will, again, use the pronoun someone wants me to use and there's no issue there. But in some contexts, it's very important that we are able to talk about this

because like with fighting, there are serious implications. If someone who is a trans woman fights someone who is born female or something like prisons you know i used to work with sex offenders both clinically and in a research capacity and sex offenders cannot be taken at face value if they say they identify as female and they get put into a female prison, I mean, how does anyone who works in forensics think that's a good idea? If you spend any time with sex offenders, you know that you cannot base any decision on what they tell you.

Yeah, that's a very extreme example. What was her response to that? Well, basically that, you know, that's not reflective of everyone. And I get that. It's true. It's true. But, and I think there are, there could potentially be cases where there are people, sex offenders who have gender dysphoria. And so yes, you know, their, their concerns should be taken into account, but I feel like we've gone so far in one direction. Like you're saying, we can't even you can't even have this conversation or that certain topics are taken off the table without any discussion because of the fear that there's going to be some sort of backlash or people are going to think that you're a bad person for even considering it. And what about you said that you guys disagreed about infants

oh with the children transitioning yeah i feel that's one subject that it's really uh i just you sometimes with activists you really can't make any any um progress and that it's just that we come to a standstill and in the book i do list there are a number of criticisms that activists and certain groups have pointed out with regard to why early in transitioning is better. There was one study that last year that got a lot of attention say with brain imaging saying that the brains of these children are more like the opposite sex and so this supports the idea that they should transition at a young age. But the thing is, so for people who are trans, their brains do tend to be shifted in the direction of the sex they identify as when you use brain imaging techniques.

But the thing is, for all of these studies, their sexual orientation is gay. So they, in sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, when we look at sexual orientation in the context of trans people, it's based on their birth sex. So someone, so say a trans woman, she was born male, identifies as female. So if she's attracted to men, that's considered gay because she was, that person,

her partner would share her birth sex. So for all of these studies on trans people, they're conflated with sexual orientation because everyone in the study is also gay. So we don't know if the brain differences we're seeing are due to them identifying as the opposite sex or due to them being gay. So with this study with the children, they did not report the sexual orientation. So we can't know because most kids who a lot of kids who are gender atypical, right, and who are gender dysphoricoric again, there's a correlation there with being gay when they're older. So I don't know why that wasn't even pointed out because that study got so much coverage and anyone who knows anything about sex research knows that.

How do you account for the seemingly large number of men who transition to become women who become lesbians? That's a very good question. And I'm not sure if you read that part of the book. No, I didn't. Okay, so it's very, very controversial. And before I say anything about this, I want to really make clear,

I do not want this information to be used to hold back trans people. I don't want this to be used to support negative stereotypes about trans women in particular, but for some trans women, their desire to transition stems from sexual arousal and the idea that becoming a woman is actually sexually arousing. Really? So I, yeah. So, and I chose to write about this because I, again, I have so many people who reach out to me saying that they experienced this

and they don't know what it is. And it's called autogynephilia, which it translates, that's a Greek word to say, love of oneself as a woman. And it's a paraphilia, which is an unusual sexual preference. And paraphilias were my research expertise when I was in academia.

So I really wrote, I wrote about this and no one has really talked about this in the mainstream. And because I want people who feel this way to be able to understand themselves and to know there's a whole bunch of information out there for you. If you Google this, everything that comes out is that this is not a real phenomenon. You know, this is made up by hateful sex researchers to invalidate trans people. This is quote unquote outdated medical research. This is pseudoscience. It's not. Everyone in the field knows it's real, including clinicians who work with patients with gender dysphoria, including people who work with adults with gender dysphoria.

Just no one will say it because they are absolutely terrified. are absolutely terrified. So when this is where it's confusing to me, because if you do transition, if you're a male and you transition to female, if you are aroused by the idea of being a female and you're aroused by women, so you want to become a lesbian essentially, but you, if you transition surgically, you're going to remove your ability to have an orgasm. You're going to remove your ability to even be aroused as a male would be. Not necessarily. Some people are able to maintain their sexual functioning after surgery, but not everyone necessarily has bottom surgery also. Some people might just choose to have top surgery or might choose to undergo hormonal interventions okay okay so we're talking about very different things right so when when so there's would you agree there's a spectrum in regards to trans people so there's

trans people that are fully transitioned to look and appear 100% female, even naked, versus someone who is trans, not denying that they're trans, but they still have a penis, a functioning penis. I think there are differences in terms of outcome, yeah, in terms of what's beneficial for people. That's what I would say. But I know of at least one, no, I know of two that became lesbians and did have bottom surgery. So if that was the thing that, if that was what excited them, this idea of being a woman, like sexually excited them, once you transition and have bottom surgery, am I right in saying that you can't have orgasms? No, some people are still able to have orgasms after.

How are they doing that? Well, because the tissue is inverted. So it's not like you can still maintain some of the sensation. But they don't have testicles anymore, right? No, but they still have the nerve endings. So they still have the feeling of ejaculation? Well, no, no. But that's a male orgasm, right?

But you can still feel pleasurable, though. Right, it feels good, but they don't orgasm. Because you cannot say that to a woman. You cannot say, oh, you orgasmed. It felt good, right? Well, you did. You you orgasmed they would get mad at you right they would say no i didn't orgasm right i i have i have not undergone the surgery so i can't speak from experience but i have heard people say that they are able to maintain orgasm after do you believe them i i do i do i think i don't know what that means though like there's isn't there a specific physiological action that happens when a female has an orgasm

right with a female usually it's clitoral right it can be it can be um uh i can't think of the word now. Internal? G-spot. Yes. Yeah, it can be G-spot. Is that replicable with males? I don't know if there's any science on this. I'm just going to say, is that scientifically proven? But is there any science on whether or not, I mean, I don't know why I'm fixated on trans orgasms.

I'm not really. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm not really, I just, I just trying to get to the bottom of this. Is there, has, has it been proven that it's possible to have an orgasm even when you're, I would, I would say that there's, sorry to cut you off. I would say there's definitely a risk of losing it, of losing that sensation and losing sexual function.

So that's also why I think it's important to be able to talk about this, because for people who experience these feelings, maybe, you know, transitioning may or may not be right for them. I do think some people with autogynephilia, yes, transitioning can help them. I don't think autogynephilia is a reason to stop someone from transitioning. But if there's someone who can feel that way and not transition, as you're mentioning, they will maintain, you know, full sexual functioning. So that's something that should be taken into account. And again, I'm sorry. Define, once again, autogynephilia? Autogynephilia.

So it's auto as in self, gyna is woman, and philia is love. It's the work of Ray Blanchard, if anyone is curious to look it up. But what do you mean? There will be so much pushback when you do though. Just be aware that a lot of it is a lot of the information, mainstream information is going to say it doesn't exist. How difficult is it to do research on this subject today? Impossible. No, it's not, it's not absolutely impossible. It's very, very, very difficult. And I can probably count on maybe a few fingers

the number of people i know who are doing it and are not ideological and are ethical as scientists and have no agenda and have no they're not trying to push any particular findings they're just doing the research as a good scientist would to see what they find and these people that are doing this are are they primarily in the United States? Are there other countries that have different perspectives on this, where they're more open to this kind of research and just purely from a scientific standpoint, trying to get an understanding of what's actually happening? Most are in North America. It really just depends, I think, also on where you're able to get funding.

So that's one of the key issues, right, in terms of the research you do. If you can't get your study funded, then you can't do anything. So we're very lucky in Canada. I would say we have a really good... My colleagues have been able to get funding quite readily here. But it's more the political climate, I think, that is really turning people away from studying subjects that would be of interest and that I think are very important. What do you attribute, when you see a culture like Thailand, for instance, that has a large number of like ladyboys, what do you think causes that? Is that an attitude difference? Is it a cultural difference? Is it a biological difference? Or is it just a myth that there are a larger percentage of transsexuals in certain places?

If there is a larger percentage of people who are... I mean, they're known for it. They're known for it. Transition, right. I would think it could be culturally determined in some ways too, because there are some cultures where being a feminine, someone who's born male, who's very feminine, may be encouraged to transition because it's more acceptable to be a feminine woman.

And I do think for, if we go back to the children children I do think for some of the parents who are in support of allowing their child to transition I think it is coming from homophobia because their sense is that if they have a very feminine son or a masculine daughter I think more so for the feminine sons they if they don't want a gay son well if this child transitions to female then she will appear to be a straight woman when she's attracted to men when she gets older. That was, I had a conversation with someone where they were praising Iran and they were saying Iran is less homophobic or excuse me, less transphobic than the United States. And they were talking about how many people transition over

there. And I was like, do you know why why it's because they literally can be thrown in jail if they're gay men i mean this is why they're one of the reasons why in some middle eastern countries they transition is because there's actually laws against homosexuality so for homosexual men they're left with a couple options the the possibility of being thrown in jail or sexually transitioning. And so what did this person say when you brought that up? Stammered. There's nowhere to go with it.

I mean, sometimes people like to say things because they have a thought in their head that they think, you know, they haven't really fleshed it out. And they're like, well, this is, look at this. Well, you know, some places in the Middle East are very open-minded. And I'm like, that's not open-minded. Like they're homophobic. They want these people to appear to be women. And it's just, you know, it's very unfortunate. I think there are trans people. And I think there are homosexual people and they're different. And I think the only way we're going to find out who's who and what's what and let people make a real, honest, balanced choice is to have no bigotry. And that includes bigotry of information. That includes keeping people from discussing and exploring subjects

without hate, which is what you're doing. And this is why it's so crazy that people are attacking you and they go after your work. Because I think in many ways, people that are on the fence about this stuff, it throws them to the wrong side. It makes people possibly transphobic. That might not be because they read them like these people are fucking crazy. I'm not for them. Oh no, those trans people are all crazy and they'll start saying things like that because they'll see some of the reactions to your work that they know are inaccurate that they know are radically biased yeah i've had some trans people reach out to me saying that that the things that some of these activists stand for are not things that they would have ever asked for and they say

that they're actually quite mortified that these are the things that some people, not even trans activists, I think some allies, even some people who are not transgender, who decide to take it upon themselves to speak for the community, because they think that's, I guess, the right thing to do. And actual trans people are saying that don't you don't speak for us. We don't want these things that you are saying. It's about power, I think. It's about power and control. And it's not even about the people that they claim to be protecting. Well, I think it's also about conformity. There's a thing that people do when they are something, whether they're a right-wing Trump supporter. They want everybody to be

a right-wing Trump supporter. And they want to argue that position. And I think people do that with everything. I think they do it with being a vegetarian or a vegan. I think they do it with being a yogi. I think they just love other people doing exactly what they're doing. And I think, unfortunately, that is also the case when it comes to some trans activists. want they want more trans people out there right because and i can see that logic because by inflating the number of people who identify this way and so also with the trans umbrella it's now widened to also include third genders or anyone who is even gender non just simply gender non-conforming so i think part of this is driven by the desire to inflate numbers so that that can, in their mind, justify acceptance. But I don't see why we can't just say, yes,

we should accept everyone. We don't have to call people trans or we don't have to widen the definition of what it means to be trans. And even within the community, you have people who are trans, who have transitioned, who have medically transitioned, who are saying people who identify as a third gender or who are mildly gender nonconforming, they're not the same as me. And it's not appropriate to say we're the same. And again, from my perspective, if someone is struggling with their feelings around gender, it's not helpful to lump them all as one because, again, they're coming from different root causes. So if you can't talk about what the root cause is, you're not going to help someone. Yeah, I would agree. And I think that one of the things we might be encountering here is that the acceptance of this is fairly novel. And the new perception of trans people, this new acceptance of it is we're working it out. And I think in the process of working it out,

you've got a lot of virtue signaling, you've got a lot of people that are conforming and they're not exactly sure what they're conforming to. And we're trying to figure out how to determine what's natural, what's not, what's right, what's wrong, what's healthy for people, what's not, what's hateful, what's not hateful. There's just so much confusion. And in the middle of this chaos, it's very difficult to sort it out.

Yeah. And I think also when you're saying with what's natural, I think some people, part of the push with the children is to say, look, if kids are feeling this way and society accepts us in children, then again, this is something that people can't argue against, right? I think it's part of a larger goal to facilitate acceptance for adults as well. And again, there's no reason why we can't do that. We don't have to tokenize these children as a way to do that. What is the argument for doing it with children? What is the argument for doing it with children?

Is the argument that the earlier they transition, the quicker they'll be happy, the more time they'll spend in the gender that they belong to rather than the gender of their birth? Right, and also that if they block puberty, that they will not go through these physiological changes that are going to make it more difficult for them to identify as the opposite sex. Yeah, this is a really, one of the things that was disturbing to me that didn't make any goddamn sense was people saying that you can block their hormones and then if they change their mind, it's easily reversible. And I'm like, you don't understand human development. That's crazy to say that. Now, recently, that's been disavowed now recently there was i forget what scientific body came out and the the nhs in the uk yes and i think you're right and they said don't will actually know when when you there's radical changes to the body that are irreversible when you block hormones at a very young age. I had this conversation with someone

on the podcast just a year or so ago, where they were saying, if the child changes their opinion, you could always reverse. And I'm like, what are you talking about? If you're introducing estrogen to a six-year-old and you're telling me when they're 14, it's going to be the same as if they didn't introduce estrogen and they didn't block their hormones that's crazy talk but that shows to me where people's minds are when it comes to this they want something to be true so and they argue it as if it's true and then it goes along with this whole conformity thing where everybody has to conform to show that they are on the right side of this ideology and that if you don't you'll be attacked well the thing is too this is what is being promoted right in the mainstream in terms of anything to do with trans issues this is what

you see is that these blockers are perfectly we don't we don't have the data we don't know what the long-term effects are and uh it's i what i want to know is why the parents are not being told this right that those changes were made are Were the parents who have signed off on this treatment, were they made aware of the fact that these guidelines have been changed, right? These are things that people in the field have been very critical of, but this has not been discussed more widely. So now that this has been changed publicly, do all the parents who have signed on for this treatment know that? I don't think any of them do because no one reported on it. And what are the repercussions two two outlets reported on it i should say right and it was very silent in a lot of ways it was just they just they put it out there and that's

it but what are the repercussions and what what do these parents do when they find that this out and they find out that these blockers they're giving their children unlike what they've been told they aren't reversible. What are they going to do? I have a number of parents who I've met over the years who asked me what they think about it. That entire chapter I wrote, chapter five, was all the advice I wish I could tell them face to face. But it's very difficult when a parent is asking you this. And I don't feel it's my place to tell them what I think about their parenting decisions. But, you know, you can see the pain in their eyes. This is very difficult.

And I think for a lot of them, they were told if they don't allow their child to transition, that child is going to commit suicide. And that's not true. So that's another thing that's being promoted very widely, the belief that if these children do not transition, they are at high risk of suicide. And I don't fault these parents for going along with it because if you, I mean, you're a parent, Joe, if someone said that to you, I think you would similarly feel like you don't have a choice. Yes. We're spending a lot of time talking about the negative aspects of transitioning, even if it's just transitioning as children or rapid onset gender

dysphoria that occurs in teenage girls, particularly with autism. But let's try to be positive about this. Let's look at the positive aspect. And I wanted to know, did you cover that at all? What are the characteristics or what groups of people find that this actually does work out well for them, even at a young age? I mean, and how would a young person absolutely and definitively know, or is it just completely personal, whether or not they are in the wrong gender? And what are the benefits of transitioning early? There was one meta-analysis, I believe it was of 27 studies that did show for people who have transitioned that they do experience a lessening of feelings of gender dysphoria and their life satisfaction goes up and other comorbid issues that they might have like

anxiety, depression, substance use, all those things go down. So like I said, I do think transitioning can help people. And I think, you know, I'm glad that you mentioned that because I don't want it to be all doom and gloom and I don't want it to seem like this is such a heavy negative issue, right? Like I do think that this can help people and I think it's good that there is more awareness about this. And I do think it's good that society is on board with helping trans people and supporting them. In terms of how people determine whether it's the right choice for them, I think, again, it's a good mental health professional who can determine, go through a proper assessment. And if you make this decision, so I should clarify, I'm not a clinician, I don't work with patients anymore. But from the conversations I've had with my colleagues,

work with patients anymore. But from the conversations I've had with my colleagues, you know, this is a decision that you're making over a period of time. And you've really asked yourself if this is the right choice for you. In which case, yeah, I think that's great. And there's an issue with a lot of trans people of being accepted. and how much of a factor is that in their happiness? Whether, I mean, that's one of the things that I would say is probably responsible for a lot of this promotion of positivity or promotion of people accepting or people being, you know, reluctant to criticize people or discuss in any negative way trans issues is that they want to support people that are doing this very difficult life-changing decision and when when they are doing that so it's such a difficult thing to discuss right because i know the suicide rates are very high

with trans people and it doesn't seem to matter whether they transition or not i believe the suicide rate it's it's pretty much saying yeah uh it there's one study that showed that the suicide rate uh is 20 times what would be seen in the general population after transitioning so some people will say that's a sign that transitioning doesn't help. But then other people will say that's a sign that transitioning did not come soon enough. And the authors of that study were very clear to say, you know, this is not causation. You can't make many assumption between transitioning and the outcome because it was only following these patients, right? There was no, it's not like you randomly assigned them as you would in an experimental study to, or if you were to design the study to be able to make cause and effect conclusions, you would need to do random assignment and things like that.

But they're basically saying that if these people hadn't transitioned, there's a possibility that they would have fared even worse. So I think it goes back to just it being on a case-by-case basis. I don't think we should be generalizing in either direction. Yeah, that's a good perspective. I think that's kind of what I was getting at. What is it that's causing these? Is the suicide rate so high because of society's lack of acceptance? Is the suicide so high because of their own personal dissatisfaction

with the, you know, being born in the wrong gender and what can be done? Is that why people are so accepting? Like maybe that's what it is that causes people to get angry when you criticize anything involving trans. It's almost like they want people like us who are not trans to step out, step away and let them sort it out. Does that make any sense? I get it. No, I get it. I get it. And I get how it can probably come across as patronizing for someone like me to step in and have a voice because they'll say, what do you know about what we experience in day to day life?

I totally get that. And I'm not saying that I do. I definitely don't. But I'm coming from the perspective of being a scientific researcher and knowing the research literature and being non-ideological and seeing why there's such a imbalance in terms of this conversation. And it's because people are afraid. So I'm in a position to speak out. I'm not afraid. to speak out, I'm not afraid. Do you feel that you're pigeonholed at all by the subject matter? Because this is, I mean, you're a fairly young woman, and this is your chosen area of exploration and study. Where do you go from here? Do you feel like this is something you'll be studying for years to come and discussing and talking about for years to come? Or do you feel like there's going to come a point in time where you can want to move on to other subjects? Well, I'm so grateful for this, to write a book. I mean, to write a book is an absolute dream and

it's been something I've been wanting to do since I was a child. So I'm super grateful to my editor, Natasha, for that. In terms of me and my career, I mean, there's so many things that I plan to do in terms of the subjects. You know, this mean, there's so many things that I plan to do in terms of the subjects. You know, this just happened to be the one thing that I wrote my first book about. But, you know, even within the book, I cover a bunch of different issues. I talk about sex differences in dating. That's something else I think is really important to approach dating and sex in a way that's evidence-based, which I feel like a lot of young people are not doing today.

What do you mean by that? based which i feel like a lot of young people are not doing today how did what is that what do you mean by that well i think say in the name of gender equality one big myth is that men and women should act the same when it comes to romantic relationships and sex and i think that actually harms both women and men though you're real you're raising your eyebrows but you'd be surprised what's out there i'm confused what do you mean by? The men and women should act the same. Well, just that say, so women, some women love casual sex and I say power to you, but I think most women on average do not enjoy casual sex as much as men. And so, but they're being told that this is how you should behave to be an enlightened woman. And I'm saying, you know, I think it's

totally fine to just do, do you, you don't have to do anything in the behave to be an enlightened woman. And I'm saying, you know, I think it's totally fine to just do you. You don't have to do anything in the name of being an enlightened woman. And if say you don't like casual sex, that's totally fine too. And I think also there's a sense that if women require an investment from their partners, I mean, in terms of like an emotional investment or effort,

that that's somehow being high maintenance, but from an evolutionary perspective, that's actually beneficial because women want to know that in the event that you do end up carrying this person's offspring, that they will be there to help you. I didn't know that this was something that's being promoted. behave like men to be an empowered woman, to have this non-emotionally connected sexual relationship and to have casual intercourse with people and not worry about it because that's what makes you an empowered woman? Yeah. And I think also evolutionary psychology has a bad rep because people think it's sexist. They think that it says that women should be confined to certain stereotypical gender roles or that women are inferior to men or that women should be sexually submissive. And I'm not saying any of those things.

I just think, again, if you try to hide what science and reality is, it's not going to help you. I've never understood that line of thinking. I never understood why people think that evolutionary biology means women should be confined to very specific behaviors or interests. It's just pointing out that for the most part, a lot of women gravitate towards these areas. It's a fascinating area of study. But there are women cage fighters. You know, most men are not cage fighters. But there's a good percentage in the UFC that are women.

You know, obviously, there's differences in what people want to pursue. You know, there's women soldiers. There's women police officers. There's a lot of females that buck trends because they're true to themselves. Whatever is in them that makes them decide to be a boxer or a jujitsu player, they pursue it. I don't think that evolutionary biology, when it shows that the vast majority of women don't gravitate towards those things, I don't think that that's sexist. And I don't think it's encouraging women to have any specific interests. I think it's just laying out data. Right.

And there's a biological component to that, right? Because for women who are more male typical, they're likely exposed to higher levels of testosterone in the womb. But to go back to your earlier point about where I go next and do I feel pigeonholed? Not really, because I do write about a whole bunch of different issues. Even outside of sex research, I write about, you know, politics more widely, more so the cultural aspect of them. But yeah, I don't, I feel like I'm at a very fortunate point right now in my career. Well, the reason why I was saying is I feel almost pigeonholed by having this conversation with you because I'm having two trans oriented

conversations in the last month or so. And I've had a couple of them before. Like I've even got messages from people like, why do you, why are you interested in this? Well, God damn it. I'm interested in everything. I'm interested in volcanoes. Okay. I'm interested in asteroids. I'm interested in a lot of things. This to me, I don't want people to think that the reason why I'm interested is because I'm discouraging it or I'm anti-trans because I'm absolutely not. But I am also anti-ideologically based thinking that's not logical or fact-based or that discourages people from asking nuanced questions or observing things for what they really are instead of what a certain segment

of society wants you to think of them as. Well, and you know, to people who are saying that to you, I honestly believe give it a couple of years and you won't be asking that question anymore because we will see why these conversations were so critical because we will see the aftermath of not talking about these things. I think that's true. And I think there's a certain amount of cowardice in not discussing these that, that really, that really disturbs me, disturbs me and makes me very feel fearful. I, I, I know people whose children, very young children, they believe are trans and they're going to go through this whole thing and, and give them hormone blockers. And, uh, you know,

there's, I've no business to tell them differently. There's no, I can't do anything about it. I just have to, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I just know that it's a real thing.

And, uh, you have to step back and go, uh, what, what would have happened 20 years ago? What would have happened 30 years ago? Is that better or is this better? Is it better to just let the child become a grown adult and decide

for themselves or is it better to step in and for whatever reason decide that Billy is really Sally? I don't know. And I don't think anybody knows. And I think that's why this discussion is so important because the ramifications of making a wrong choice or of influencing or of deciding for that child, it's so great. How can I ask you, how do you deal with the pushback? Because it doesn't seem to affect you at all. And I love that. And I'm wondering, has it always been like that for you?

Or was there a very conscious decision on your part to just not listen to it? I know where I'm coming from. I know I'm not a hateful person. And then when I'm, when, you know, there's a lot of people that have all sorts of crazy opinions about me. There's nothing I can do about that. I just remain true to myself and ask things or discuss things that I'm curious about. That's it. I mean, yeah, there's, there's blowback, but there's blowback with everything i do there's not a damn thing i can do without people getting upset at me i just have too much of a too much reach now there's too there's too much bandwidth it's too much too many people coming in

too many they see you as a threat but i don't know why you know i'm not a threat i might be if you have a rigid ideology that doesn't make sense and I oppose it, I oppose that idea that this rigid ideology that doesn't make sense should just be left alone and never discussed. The only thing that's, it's a threat to your own personal mindset. I'm not doing anything to anyone. I'm just talking about things. So I don't know why they would think of me as a threat. I'm not promoting any hateful behavior or actions at all and I never would it's not something i'm ever interested in I want people to be happy I genuinely want as many people in this world to be happy as possible and to be loving to each other and to be kind

and open-minded And to allow people to live their life the way they see fit, as long as it's not doing any harm to other people. I don't think that's a bad thing. And as long as I don't think that's a bad thing, and as long as I have this opportunity to express myself the way I really feel, I'm going to continue to do it. And it shows, right? It resonates with your audience.

And I'm so glad I get to chat with you semi-face-to-face and actually congratulate you in person for the Spotify deal because it's just amazing. And it's really inspiring to see someone who has literally built it from the grown-up and, you know, you're self-made. So it just, it's, for all of us who are watching, it shows, you know, you can do it too if you work really hard, probably. Debra, it's weird, you know, because there's nothing I ever planned and it just, I just keep showing up. I just keep doing it. And then it's got, it's become this very strange thing. I remember there was a time I was on stage in Chicago. It was like, it must've been like at least five years ago. And I just asked, I go, how many people listen to the podcast? And I expected it to be just like a few claps here and there. It was 3,700 people in that place at the Chicago theater. And they went,

yeah. And I went, oh shit. And that was the moment I realized like, oh shit, like what's happening. And that was a long time ago. You know, that was five years ago where it's at now is very very very strange and if i keep doing it if i keep having interesting people like you on and keep having these interesting discussions i guess it just keeps getting stranger and stranger and i don't know what that means i really haven't figured it out let's keep doing it um if people are getting mad at this or getting mad at this discussion first of all i know you're a good and I know you're not a hateful person and I swear to God, I'm not either. And I don't think there's anything wrong with having these discussions.

And if people want me to have a trans person on to, to show, uh, the opposite perspective, I would love to, but I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with what we're saying. I really don't think there's anything wrong with what we're saying. I really don't. And particularly when it comes to children, I just, I can't imagine that there's an argument against what you're saying. know where you're coming from. I also know where I'm coming from and I know what my intentions are. No one else knows. So that's at the end of the day, that's how I sleep at night. And I know that people are going to see that what you and I are saying right now is true. So that's really all that matters. It doesn't matter all the people who want to call me names and say that I'm a bad person because I know that I'm, I'm really just trying to protect these children. I think you are as well. And nothing but love and respect for all the people that do transition and are happy with it. Nothing but love and just

I know that I know that you're coming from a good place and I really do hope that it does some good and that there are people that listen to this and do get they get a different perspective and perhaps do a little research and realize like we're but we might be about to make a terrible mistake that you can't change yeah yeah that's all i can say about it do you have plans to write another book well this book has just come out so i'm very excited about promoting and talking about it but you know i in terms of what i want to achieve with my career, yeah, I want to do hopefully more books. I want to do more TV. I would love to do documentaries, more podcasts, everything. You know, I feel very lucky. I feel journalism has

opened up this freedom that I unfortunately did not have as an academic scientist. Well, it's, I think the world of journalism and particularly the world of open and free media, new media like podcasts, it really needs people like you. It really needs academics who have decided to use the freedom that you get from new media and explore these subjects in a non-confined way. a non-confined way. So many academics feel confined by institutions and by the politics involved in these institutions to the point where these subjects can't get discussed because of these rigid ideologies. I think it's so important that people like you do express yourself the way you're doing and bravely. I think it's really, for our culture, it's very, very important. And bravely. I think it's really, for our culture, it's very, very important.

Thank you. But also with journalism, I would say, I get it. Because I think some journalists who write about very far left themes, I don't know that they necessarily agree with what they're writing about. But at the end of the day, you need a paycheck. And if that's what you need to write about, then that's what they write about. Because it can be hard. Right. And journalism is a very competitive industry. So I think I like the fact that there is so much more room now in terms of people doing their own thing. And I've just been I'm very, very grateful for the platforms who have me on and the editors and outlets who let me write for them, because I think there needs to be more of a balance and I think people also are growing tired of only one acceptable way of thought being

promoted right people are sick of it I think they really are and I think what you're saying is very true in terms of journalism like journalism is so important but unfortunately for many journalists the traditional the traditional avenues of journalism whether it's print-based or even television, those things are drying up and they're forced to sort of submit to these clickbait type articles. They kind of have to. They get stuck into this position where they have to write things that are going to excite people. They write things where the headlines are going to grab people and rope them in. And I think that's many of the reasons why they have to write these stories that are outrageous or inflammatory, maybe even about things that they don't necessarily agree with. But they're starving. There's really like you

have to do something to get people's attention today. I defend clickbait all the time. I defame clickbait like, listen, man, we fucking need journalists. And even if it's the New York Times that's writing clickbait or the Washington Post, why do you think they're doing that? Do you think they're doing that because they're dumb? Are they unethical? No. They need people to fucking read things because they can't get clicks otherwise. There's too much information. There's too much data. There's so much out there. It's so hard to get someone to pay attention to any issue. And if you're a journalist, there's only so many different things you can cover. And I think for a lot of them, they're just trying to stay alive.

Yeah, but I guess the larger hope is that because journalism is supposed to be objective and it's supposed to show you what's important in the world and show it from a fact-based perspective that something like money and clicks would not be influencing the direction that we're going in yeah that would be cute but it's not real i think i would i would love i mean i've talked about this many times i would love it if somebody came out with a really truly objective fact-based news source with everything, where there's no bias left or right at all. And they're just looking at the absolute, concrete, irrefutable facts of every different situation and every different story in the news. I mean, I think that would be fantastic. I think a lot of people like

myself and probably you as well, and a lot of people listening would gravitate to. And I think a lot of people like myself and probably you as well and a lot of people listening would gravitate to. And I think there's a real market for it. I just don't know if you could actually do it. Because I think that if you get a bunch of people together and you put together some sort of an organization, you're going to have an ideological bend to it. It's just they're going to lean one way or the other. And then they're going to, you know, omit facts or add their own opinions to things or editorialize. And next thing you know you're left or right you're cnn or you're fox or whatever the fuck you are well that's the thing because we

all have our own biases and then i think the main thing is are you aware of those biases and do you try to counter them i think for myself i'm a columnist so i have more room in terms of giving my own opinions it doesn't have to be it's not if you're a columnist you're not supposed to be purely objective and you you know so i i think part of the problem is that and even good scientists you know the you need to be aware of what your particular leanings are so that you can say okay this is this should not be affecting my work. Yeah, I agree. You don't have any problem at all with porn. You think porn is fine and porn is recreational. A lot of people would push back against that. And a lot of people would push back and they would say that it's damaging to young

women, that it objectifies women in a harmful way, and that it changes the way young people and particularly look at sex and that they mirror and model themselves after these very unrealistic scenarios that are depicted in these in these films what do you think about that right i didn't i've never said that i have no issue with porn i would just say I'm not anti-porn in that I think that pornography has a time and place. I think if you're an adult, in terms of sex more broadly, whatever's consensual, that's a way that people should learn about what sex is going to be like because that's pornography is not indicative of what real life sex is and i think for people who are concerned that pornography is uh that it say i mean there's so many different angles in terms of the criticisms of porn but say one common criticism is that pornography makes men interested in things that are you know potentially degrading to women i do think there is that pornography makes men interested in things that are potentially degrading to women. I do think there is some pornography that is not very nice in the way it depicts women, for sure.

But I don't think viewing that is what makes men misogynistic or disrespectful of their partners. I think that's something that is inherent in them. And again, as someone who has worked with sex offenders, you know, antisociality is more predictive of someone's behavior and their views of women. It's not about being exposed to porn because I think most pro-social men, if they see something that's very degrading and awful to women, they're going to say that's horrible and I don't want to look at that. I think the issue is not really with porn as much as the issue is with human beings. I think that porn is in a lot of ways like many things, like alcohol, for instance. You can have a drink every now and then or you can drink all day long and ruin your life. What is the problem?

Is the problem the alcohol or is it your behavior? Is it the human being? I think it's a human being and human beings, obsessive, compulsive behavior and people's addiction to things. The addiction to pornography seems to be an issue. And so some people's ideas, well, you should ban pornography. Well, that's sort of the same argument for banning alcohol, but it doesn't really work. Like you can't really tell people what to do if some people don't have a problem with it. Like there's some people that enjoy porn every now and then they watch porn. They'd rather masturbate than have a relationship or whatever. Maybe they just don't want to deal with people, but they're horny. I don't know for whatever reason, but there's nothing wrong with that. but there is something wrong for them with the action of watching porn all day and disassociating and being weird.

But again, I don't think it's a porn problem. I think it's a human problem. It's the same thing as gambling. There's a lot of things that people get really obsessed with and they get addicted to. I don't think the problem is the individual thing. This has always been my take on porn or really on a lot of what we call vices. I don't think the problem is the things themselves. And I not just respect, I support individual choices. I love the fact that we have freedom. could do whatever you want i think you should be able to do anything you should as long as people aren't getting hurt by it i wonder why we have

this perspective on porn though that we don't have on other things because like porn in many ways should be just people having sex, people and filming it, right? People obviously like sex. So why is it such a big deal to film it? Why is it such a big deal to show it to other people? It's a very strange aspect of being a human being that this one thing that so many people are obsessed with and literally go out of their way to be successful so they can get more sex. Like that is like if you ask men, like if men could not have sex, how many men would be driving Ferraris and taking selfies in front of private jets? How about zero, right? This is why they're doing it.

They're signaling that they have wealth. They're trying to make themselves attractive. Why are they trying to do that? For status. For what? they have wealth they're trying to make themselves attractive why are they trying to do that for status for what well maybe to show off to other men but more likely to show off to whoever they're attracted to whether it's the opposite sex or the same sex they're trying to get sex so why is it that filming sex is so taboo well okay to go back to your point about porn addiction number one there's no evidence for pornography addiction in that i need to introduce you to your point about porn addiction number one there's no evidence for

pornography addiction in that i need to introduce you to some of my friends you don't know what you're talking about i don't i don't i'll give you evidence there is i don't doubt that for some people porn is a problem for sure and like you're saying there's some people who watch for hours you know in the research i was doing before there are some people i would talk to who literally sit and watch pornography 8 12 hours a day and it's affecting work they're up super late you know they can't get up in the morning it's affecting their relationships that is not that's not healthy that's definitely excessive i don't deny that that exists but that's not

that's not addiction that's usually procrastination it's procrastination oh wow that's a weird point of view i think they're addicted to it they're obsessed with it if you're obsessed with something don't you think that that's an addiction i mean are we splitting hairs here i i guess it depends on what if you're meaning addiction as in like a colloquial use of the word maybe but in terms of if you're talking about drug and alcohol addiction it's not because drug and alcohol addiction is characterized by tolerance and withdrawal. So people who people, some people will argue, like I said, with, with pornography that they're, if they watch it and they start watching more extreme versions of

it, they're saying that this is, you know, my tolerance. But if you actually sit and have a conversation with those people, they'll say, actually, this is what I've liked all along. It's just, it took me a while to accept that. So it's not, there's no tolerance and you don't see people having withdrawal when they stop. Well, they might not have physical withdrawal, but they do get obsessed with it and they do have a compulsion to look at it. I know, I know people that if they take, you know, a day from porn, they think about it all the time. They can't wait to get alone to watch it. I think it is an addiction and I think it is similar to a drug addiction. The same way gambling is similar to a drug addiction. There is an internal drug.

There's something that's going on in your mind that you are getting addicted to, the excitement, the endorphins that you get from gambling. I think there's many people that get that same excitement or similar endorphins from watching pornography and masturbating. Well, I mean, yeah, it's rewarding, but I think for a lot of people, it's a coping strategy. And if you give them different coping strategies, suddenly they're not reliant on pornography to feel better, to deal with stress. But isn't that a strategy for getting over addiction? Like you would admit there's an addiction to gambling? I think it is recognized now, I believe. But don't you think that that's a similar situation?

Because there is no withdrawal and it's not like you reach a certain point where you need more to get you off. Because, I mean, or I guess it is really, right? Because they gamble bigger and bigger numbers. But what I'm saying is you don't really develop a tolerance to gambling, right? But it is a gambling addiction. But the thing is with people with so-called pornography addiction, and research has shown this, if you give them other coping skills and ways to deal with stress in their life,

or you teach them, say, they give them assertiveness training so that they are able to speak up about what's bothering them instead of turning to pornography as a way to feel better, it actually cuts down on how much they're viewing time and how much they rely on it. That's interesting, and I wonder if you get healthy user bias, because if you're getting someone that is willing to admit and accept the fact that they do have some sort of a sex or pornography addiction, that's not the average person like there's i think there's a lot of people out there that are addicted to porn but you never hear from them because there's so much shame attached to it right but i think someone who

is spending 8 to 12 hours a day that's a lot of time that's that's pretty far in terms of severity so yeah like i don't think that for everyone who uses porn as a coping strategy, it's necessarily going to be that extreme. But my issue is that this has been portrayed as something that is definitive and that we should treat it. I think it was maybe two years ago, everyone was talking about porn addiction. And within the field, people who work with people with problems with pornography in a therapeutic context will say, you know, that it's not an addiction. It's, there are other things usually going on in someone's life. And those are the things that you need to talk about when you sit down with a therapist. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess I would agree that for a lot of

people probably is procrastination and there's probably a lot of other factors as well. But then again, people get horny. So like, even if you like find all these other coping mechanisms where you get horny you're probably going to watch porn again so you'll slide right back into it well there's no solution i don't know i mean it's a weird thing as opposed to gambling right like you're not going to get horny for gambling, right? There's not like an equivalent thing where you like you build up this thing inside your body that needs to take a risk, right? But whereas with pornography, like it's particularly with men, you do sort of build up this need to release. Right. And then it becomes a question of can they integrate this back into their life in a healthy way without it becoming destructive again?

Yeah. So why do you think it is that we have this weird take on sex? Because it's a weird thing that it seems to be, there's no problem with sex sex but filming sex and showing sex is where things get strange because sex is still considered stigmatized and it's taboo and even when you're a sex scientist there's so much stigma around that you know you would think that as a scientist that there would be some sort of removal of that perception but but no. So I think, you know, I write a lot about sex positivity also. I think if we were to decrease the stigma around human sexuality, that would help in so many ways. That makes sense. Do you feel like you get extra discrimination

because you're a beautiful woman who studies sex? Do people like automatically go, oh, she's a freak. She's just looking for something to study that fits to her own little weird stuff do you get that i think people i well i have in the past i think people and i don't blame them for making assumptions because people tend to study what they find interesting and usually i think people think you have some sort of personal reason for studying the things that you do you know for my, my research expertise was basically kinky sex and sex toys, but I'm extremely vanilla and monogamous and actually pretty boring. So, you know, I, for me, it was a way of living vicariously through people that I would talk to and when I would go out and study these different populations.

Or studying something perhaps that doesn't jive with your own proclivities. Right. Yeah. I think, I mean, most people would say that human sexuality is really fascinating. And I would have a number of people say to me in the time when I was in graduate school that they wish they had also been studying sex, but they were afraid of what people would think or it's too stigmatized. And I think that's really a shame because the more people who are interested in doing good work, then that's going to help everybody. Yeah, it is.

It's one of those things where people are like, why are you studying that? Like, because it is stigmatized, it does have this weird sort of connotation to it. Whereas it is a natural part of human behavior. And it's something that most people are at least mildly interested in. Sex, like the idea of studying it being a problem is very odd. And it's something that most people are at least mildly interested in. Sex. Like the idea of studying it being a problem is very odd. But I wonder if it's like different in Canada than it is in America. Because Canada seems to have a healthier perspective in general about sex.

I think America still has, for whatever reason, the echoes of the Puritan ideology that was established when this country was founded? Because we have comprehensive sex education. As far as I know, for the most part, that's what is predominantly taught in schools with children. And so I think the idea of sex ed makes people uncomfortable because some adults will say you're introducing ideas into kids' heads. You know, they wouldn't otherwise be thinking about these things. But studies have actually shown that children who get comprehensive sex education, of course, if it's age appropriate, actually make better decisions when it comes to their sexual health. They're more likely to delay when they start having sex and they're more likely to use contraception when they do.

So that's in contrast to abstinence-only sex, which basically tells you to wait until marriage. Of course. I mean, that's with everything, right? I mean, that's why Europeans have less alcoholics because they introduce alcohol to kids younger. You're allowed to drink beer or wine when you're young. It's not so taboo and crazy. So it's not like this built up thing that you're told to avoid well i think too for kids it not kids let me restate that because obviously kids should not be having sex but for teenagers yeah if you just tell them that they shouldn't do something what are they going to do they're going to go do it instantly yeah so it's it's better that they have information and

education so that they i think that's they can make more informed decisions that way. Unquestionably. When I was in high school, there was an open secret that girls who went to all girls Catholic schools were the biggest freaks. Like across the board, they were the ones who wanted to have the most sex. They were crazed. They were literally crazed. And we would always try to figure it out, but we knew it was a fact. And it was an open fact that kids, when I was like 17, we all discussed it. And we're all, we're like, what is, how is, what is it? And we just figured it out. Well, it's obviously suppression, but I mean, it's amazing

that other people didn't see it. Like, how do the parents not know they're creating monsters they're creating sex monsters like one of the girls that i dated when i was in high school who went to an all girls uh school all girls catholic school was crazy she was crazy the way i describe her as like a kitten like if you know if you roll a ball on the ground a kitten has to dive on it that's how she was with a dick. She couldn't stop herself. And I think it was literally because of what they did to them. They told them sex is bad, it's evil, it's terrible, boys are bad. And they're all together, all with a bunch of girls. They can't wait to get out of that place and go find a boy. But, okay, what are the guys like then, the guys who are at those schools?

That's a good question. I would assume they'd be sex crazed too. I didn't have any guy friends that went to all guys Catholic schools. For whatever reason, in Boston where I grew up, it was mostly all girls Catholic schools. I don't know if there was all guys Catholic schools. The guys that I knew that were brothers with these girls, they went to regular schools. I don't know what was going on. I mean, they were just trying to make sluts. Maybe they had like some crazy secret agenda to turn these girls into promiscuous young ladies. I don't

really believe that. Maybe it was probably the opposite, right? It was probably like they're trying to reinforce purity. And by doing so, they screwed up the idea of what sex is in these girls' heads. And that's the thing too. I also don't think men and women should be held to different standards when it comes to that. And I think if for, for girls, especially they're them being chased. And when I say chase, I mean, C-H-A-S-T-E and being virginal, right. And protecting their whatever quote unquote inherent value as women by being virginal. I don't think that's fair.

I think it should be, you know, if we're going to say that sex is something special and you should choose carefully who you have sex with, that should be across the board. And conversely, if we're saying that people should be able to have sex as much sex as they want,

and that's fantastic, then that should be across the board also. Yeah, I agree with that. And that does exist in other countries, but for whatever reason in America in America, we generally speaking, don't have that value. And I guess that would be why people that are striving for women's equality would tell women that you are exactly the same thing as a man and you should pursue the same things men do like casual sex to sort of affirm that a man and women are the same in that respect yeah i think that's where the what the intention is where it's coming from but again at the end of the day i'm just about making choices that are good for you and

then make you happy and and there's no need to feel pressure to behave in a certain way you know i have young women who reach out to me who will say a lot that they don't, they can't perform like they're straight and they can't perform like they're male partners and that worries them. Because for men, you know, if they're turned on, they're turned on right away. Women, it tends to take a little bit more time,

you know, and it's a bit more context dependent. And if you're telling young women that they need to be exactly the same as men, they're gonna think, they're gonna internalize this and think there's something wrong with them. And that just makes me so sad because there's nothing wrong with the way as men, they're going to think they're going to internalize this and think there's something wrong with them. And that just makes me so sad because there, there's nothing wrong with the way our system were, the way we're built. Right. And so, yeah. Well, I think the solution to that is what you just did discussion, talk about it.

You know, and I think having these kinds of conversations about it and hopefully people will hear these conversations and it'll broaden their ideas and broaden their perspectives deborah thank you so much yes when are you when are you moving to texas uh the end of the month whoa yeah i'm out of here this place is gonna blow up this place is gonna sink watch as soon as i leave boom i just thought it's it's fucking this place is crazy they they the lockdown still exists right there's the homelessness is completely out of control um there's the overpopulation is out of control the way they're handling this is so bad i'm just upset with the federal government's handling of this everybody's hand there's so many people that are just financially they're

so fucked right now and i think people should be i don't i mean i don't want to say people should be held accountable for but i think people should make decisions based on the way the place that they live is handling this really difficult problem and the way the solution they've come up with in cal is to jack up taxes. So the most recent solution was to jack up taxes to 54%. I'm like, you guys are out of your fucking mind. Retroactively, back to January. That's a lot. It was a proposal.

It's crazy. It's not going to fix it. They're bankrupt. This state is bankrupt because they're incompetent. They're not going to become competent if you give them more money. You know, it's just they've managed the money that they got very poorly. They already have high taxes. There's a 13.5% state income tax here in California. And the place is still fucked up. It's like, this is a, this is a very telling and dangerous time in a lot of ways. It's very challenging and it exposes a lot of things.

And one of the things that exposes, I don't, I don't particularly like the way things are run here. And I, I, I don't like being in a place that has such a high population either. I think there's a real problem with living somewhere that has 20 million people plus 40 million in the whole state. It's so crazy. There's so many people here. And the only thing that was really keep me around was the comedy store and my friends and a lot of my friends are bailing a lot i mean there's a where are they going all over the place my friend joey's moved in new jersey uh theo vaughn is moving i think he's moving to nashville a lot of my friends are talking about texas people are just bailing there's a mass exodus out of california right now that's crazy because i was actually planning to move to la eventually so now that you're going i was gonna say the next time I'm in town, I'll come say hi, but you're

going to be gone. Well, maybe I'll be here every now and then, you know, I look once things are back to normal, whatever normal is going to be, I I'd be happy to come in every now and then. And we're going to keep this studio for a while. I'll, I'll come to the comedy store and still do shows there. I miss all my friends that, that work there and that perform there. So I'm sure I'll be in town at least a few times a year. But I just want to change too. I think there's other places to live. I want to live in a place where it rains. That's another thing. It's very unhealthy living in a place where it's always sunny. I think it gives you a really delusional perspective. It's so beautiful.

It's beautiful for you because you come from Toronto. It's 55,000 degrees below zero. Well, it's not snowing every day, counter to what people think. We do actually have summer and sunshine sometimes. Of course you do. Look, I love Toronto. But the thing is, like, when people come from somewhere like that, and then you come to L.A. and it's sunny all the time, you're like, this is amazing.

But after a while, it's like, it gives you a distorted view of nature, you know? And I think that's one of the reasons why people in LA are so delusional. They very rarely have to deal with actual nature. I always felt like there was something real humbling about growing up in Boston because it got so goddamn cold and it snowed so much that you just knew, like there were certain point in times where you had to submit to nature. You had to huddle in, there's two feet of snow outside, you just stayed home. You just, you know, hung out with the family, you played games, you did what you had to do, no one's going anywhere. The roads are shut down, they have to plow, it takes days. And there's something about

that, just understanding that sometimes you have to be at the beck and call and the will of nature that doesn't exist in california every 20 years or so we get a wake-up call the earth shakes and buildings fall down you go fuck i gotta get out of here and then people move out and then a couple years later they forget a bunch of people move in and then it gets overcrowded again but this is like one of the first years i think where california didn't grow and that's uh that's very strange because every year california's population just keeps growing and growing and growing and they're saying this this is one of the very first years in recent memory where it's not growing so many people are leaving that it's actually not growing hmm i look change is good

i'm happy for you thank you I'm happy for you too thank you I'm happy for you your book you have a podcast as well right I will be starting a new podcast so I would tell everyone to follow me on social media I'm at DrDebraSo on Twitter and Facebook

and at DrDebraWSo on Instagram and I'll be announcing a whole bunch of new stuff coming soon and it's D-E-B-R-A. So nothing crazy with the O and the H. A lot of people like to, Deborah can be spelled so many different ways, right? Right. And then so is S-O-H. S-O-H. Very simple. All right. Well, thank you very much, Deborah. It's always good to talk to you. Next time,

hopefully we get to see each other in person. I know. Thank you so much, Joe. I appreciate it. Stay safe, stay healthy, and don't read the comments. Take know. Thank you so much, Joe. I appreciate it. Stay safe, stay healthy, and don't read the comments. Take care. Bye.