The Joe Rogan Experience - #1597 - Travis Walton

Episode Date: January 19, 2021

Travis Walton's personal story of alien abduction inspired the science-fiction film "Fire in the Sky", and has been featured in multiple documentaries devoted to the subject of UFOs.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hello, Travis. Hello, Joe. Pleasure to meet you, man. Well, pleasure to meet you. I'm a long-time fan. Oh, thank you. Well, I guess I'm a long-time fan, too, because I'm a longtime fan of your story. I'm a longtime fan of, I mean, you have, there's probably two of the most famous abduction stories, UFO abduction stories ever, Betty and Barney Hill, and you. Those are the two ones. Unavoidable. It's nothing I've ever promoted.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like you asked to be abducted. Yeah. How old were you at the time i was 22 at the time you're 22 and this was in 1975 november of 1975 so um you were working as a logger is that what you're doing yeah yeah the movie has a crew of five but there were actually seven of us out there. And to me, the idea that people would want to deny that this ever happened is incredible. You have seven people, all identical testimony, all passing law enforcement lie detector tests. This would have been adequate testimony to convict somebody of murder in a death penalty case but be understand why people would be skeptical right I mean yeah I do I mean a completely unique experience that only a handful of people report that they've

ever had ever in their whole I mean the history people. How many people have a story like yours? It's so rare. Of course people are going to be skeptical. Yeah, I can forgive that. But, you know, when they look at the evidence and say, well, never mind the evidence, okay. What's interesting to me, one of the things that's interesting is you've never changed your story at all.

It's always been the same since 75 to today, every time you've told it, it's always the same story. And also, the guys that you were working with, you didn't even get along with all those guys. No, actually, that very morning I'd had a fight with Alan. He'd gone out to my girlfriend's house and told her, dump that guy, come with me. We got in a fight there in

mike's backyard and he tried to do a spin kick on me and fell on his can and uh you know steve steve remembers that little set to there so that's that scene in the movie where alan cuts a tree that nearly hits me that really happened to him wow so uh they would have had incentive to say you're full of shit and in fact uh when you did get abducted and they told uh the police the police thought that they had killed you yeah they were suspected of murder from the get-go and that led to a lot of friction at the polygraphs. Alan's mom was telling him, they're going to frame you. You're going to hang. Because as far as they knew, I'd never show up again.

Maybe a mountain lion ate me or something. So the idea that it was going to be rigged and Allen was the fall guy led to a lot of friction, but it was something that they all testified. They were interviewed by separate deputies, but they were basically describing the same thing, but just interpreted. One guy said it was a foot by beam that hit me another uh said that it looked like a long blue flame another compared it to a bolt of lightning but they were all basically saying the same thing in the movie uh the beam comes on holds the actor for a length of time and then tosses him back but it was uh uh according to what they say now i didn't see the beam i just was unconscious i just felt this stunning force and uh they said it threw me back you know 10 20

feet and uh one of the men happened to be looking in the other direction. He said, lit up the entire forest lighter than daylight. But hitting the ground, and I described that in the book, and immediately after this report came out, there were professional skeptics determined to shoot the whole thing down. One skeptic on Larry King had two different versions of why you shouldn't believe it. One saying, in my book I described hitting the rocky ground and saying that the medical exam didn't show any bruises. There should have been bruises, he says.

And then on the very same show, he says, the ground was covered with a thick carpet of pine needles, which should have caught fire. They should have burned. So you can't have it both ways, but you run into that with people that are trying to build a case. They don't care if they self-contradict. Yeah.

So the movie you're talking about is a movie, is Fire in the Sky, which is a pretty wild movie. First of all, what is it like to see a movie about you and about this insane experience that you report and then see it done through Hollywood where it's kind of distorted some things and taken some theatrical, you know, they take some liberties right with the story well uh the guy who hypnotized me uh introduced me to betty hill and she had a warning about don't let this kind of attention uh what were her words something like don't let them don't let them make you into a parody of yourself. So I was always conscious about not letting that stuff go to my head, you know, because I'm just me. You know, I want to be respected for things that I have accomplished,

things that I can do, not because of something that just happened to me. Right. Yeah, well, if anybody you should listen to, it would be her, right? That was her and her husband. That was the first ever real public story about a UFO. Yeah, that was like 12 years earlier. Yeah, so she had gone through the ringer already.

So let's take it back to the day that this happened. You're 22. You're logging. You're in the woods. Tell me what happened. Well, it was just, you know, when you're done working hard physical labor, everybody's kind of jacked up, and there was a whole lot of chatter in the car. We're just talking away, you know.

It was starting to get dark. We just loaded up our equipment. We're headed out. And I looked up ahead and I saw this kind of glow coming through the trees. First, I thought, no big deal. You know, it was deer hunting season. I thought maybe there was some hunters camped up on the hill up there, maybe light shining through a tent. It was still something really strange kind of caught my eye. And one by one, the other guys in the crew started looking, but nobody said, oh, my God, what's that, or anything like that. It was just kind of an idle curiosity at first. burst into the clearing where we could see the source of this glow uh it was just whoa you know i mean it was just mind-blowing instantly um i i inexplicably got out of the truck and ran toward

this thing but uh i thought i thought it was just going to take off, be gone in a flash. So when you say in the clearing, so are you driving on a dirt road? Yeah, it's a dirt road. Trees are real thick. This was a part of the contract we hadn't cut in yet. So trees were a lot thicker there except for this clearing. And we weren't the only ones that saw it. We found out later.

Sheriff had on file people who were in the area that saw it, you know, hunters and fishermen over there at Black Canyon Lake. And the movement that they described was what the crew described when it left um and uh of course i didn't see that but what what did they describe uh they described uh this glow rising up and streaking off, I believe they said, toward the northeast. And there were some people that probably don't want to be public about it, but there was one guy who was just deer hunting, and he worked in military intelligence,

and he stuck by what he and his wife saw. They were both together. And another guy that was at Black Canyon Lake, I won't mention any of those guys' names unless they chose to, found out later that there was more official investigation that nobody talked about at the time. Immediately, though, this was all nonsense, and these guys murdered him, and even my oldest brother, he didn't believe me. He thought they had killed me. What we were doing with the brush that we cut was piling it up there were piles that were in the clearing so that the forest service could burn

these piles uh you know when the conditions were right or it wouldn't spread you know wet conditions otherwise but burn up this excess material to reduce the fire danger in the woods. And my oldest brother was tearing those piles apart. He was certain that my body was under there. And there were some pretty testy confrontations between him and my brother. And I think even my other brother, Dwayne, he initially took that approach, but he quickly became sure that they were telling the truth. Now, what do you remember when you're going through your mind and you're trying, I mean, this is a story you've told so many times. And this is a story that's been turned into a film.

It's got to be very surreal. But when you look into your memories and you try to go back to that day. Well, I don't try. It's something I try to block out, but it's unforgettable. What do you remember seeing when you ran into the clearing? Well, the whole clearing was lit up with this weird glow. It's really hard for any artist or movie to try to duplicate the strange glow there was there. It made everything look really, really pretty eerie, you know. Did it have a color to it?

It was kind of a golden color, but with a kind of a softness to it that was, it wasn't like beams of light shooting out it was just this um haze of of of light and did it seem to come from a specific part of the craft or most of the surface seemed to be glowing there were darker areas that didn't give off light but uh um it was the parts weren't glowing. It wasn't so hard bright that you couldn't look at it. But it had a metallic look to it. So what did the craft itself look like? It was a classic disc-shaped craft.

Years later, there was a report. I can never remember names, but this guy was saying that he worked at Area 51, and they had something in there. He worked with the Tester Model Corporation to create a model of what he was describing. And that's actually the closest of any of the other descriptions I've seen. But I don't think these things have just one type of craft. I think there's many, many different shapes. What makes you think that?

Well, personal experience. I try not to emphasize these other incidents, but I've seen the glowing sphere. I've seen the giant black triangle. Other craft that were a ball of light that you couldn't penetrate the light with your eyes. Now, this is after this experience. with your eyes but uh no this is after this experience um i think the reason my brother duane was uh persuaded more quickly than my brother don was that he saw a craft in those woods that's probably 10 miles from there while deer hunting.

And it was kind of tic-tac shaped. And that's something that's been observed by, you know, in military reports recently. Yeah. So you see this thing, this disc-shaped craft, and then what happens? It started to move and started to get louder. Louder? Yeah. The guys in the truck heard it too. There was a low thunderous kind of a rumble that you actually sort of felt more than heard.

And then there were other high-pitched frequencies. I was talking to a group of students from a technical college, and they were really interested in what the sound was like to try to compare that with theories that they had concerning what might be their propulsion. But the increase in volume, it suddenly got louder as it started to move. And at the same time, the guys in the truck were screaming, get away from there, let's go, let's go, get back in the truck, let's go, which would have been the smart thing to do.

But as soon as it moved, it startled me, and I just ducked for cover. There was a log there. I got down behind this log, and they were screaming, let's go, let's go, let's go. They were screaming, let's go, let's go, let's go. And I didn't need to be told. I was just going to stand up and run away. But see, when I jumped for cover, I went down and forward to reach where the log would hide me. And that brought me closer to it.

So when I stood up, at that point, that was the closest I was to the object. How close? It was still like eight or ten feet away, you know, from the surface of it. But that was when the energy discharge happened. I've worked on a number of theories about what might have happened. I've worked on a number of theories about what might have happened. At the time, some of the other guys on the truck were thinking, I mean, immediately Steve said, it got him. Like, you know, if you shot a deer, you got it, you know? And so it might not have been as we assumed at first that it was some kind of stun gun or something, but maybe just closing that gap allowed this energy to leap to ground through me. Like static electricity or something? Yeah. One thing that really weighs heavy in that direction is that when I found years later

that they have satellites or something that record the number of lightning strikes, and that area has the highest frequency of lightning strikes of any place in the continental United States except for the Everglades the Everglades has a bit more but that's over water so that adds to another theory what were they doing there you know so that area that has a high level of lightning strikes do you think it makes sense that they're observing that? Or is that why they were there? Do you have any thoughts about that? Well, up until a few years ago, you know, you walk down the rim road

and if you see a tree that's been hit by lightning, you can always see it. It's a strip of bark that just blasts it out of there and it's all bare. And it can actually still survive the lightning strike. We see it. It's a strip of bark that just blasts it out of there, and it's all bare. And it can actually still survive the lightning strike. But it turns the sap to steam instantly, and it just explodes out the side of the tree, blows the bark off. But I was at a conference where this lady was, I said, what's this? And she says, that's fulgurite.

I said, what's that? And she says, that's when lightning strikes the earth. You've got millions of volts, millions of degrees unique kind of crystal that would be formed by that kind of blast of energy. I'd never heard of fulgurite before. Can you pull up an image of that, Jamie? I'd like to see what that looks like. I know tritonite is something that happens when they call it nuclear glass. It happens when there is either a nuclear explosion or when asteroid impacts hit the Earth.

That's it right there? Well, these crystals are supposed to have very special properties for people who are into crystal stuff. What does that say there, Jamie? This is what happens? That's what can... Strike sand. Wow. That's wild.

It's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. That's pretty wild. So it might be that they were looking for that. Could be. Maybe it's something that they use for energy. What is that? That's really when lightning struck Santa created that thing? That's wild energy what is that that's really when lightning struck santa created that

thing that's wild that is wild look at that looks like a tree coming out of the sand uh i guess that's that was wet sand yeah but uh yeah well it's right next to the beach it must be wet that is crazy that's really wild man wow so if you ever see one of them, that's where that came from. Fascinating. So that stuff is in that area. You've seen that stuff in that area? So I never found any. I imagine people have looked for it.

One thing in our expedition back to the site, we discovered, well, I didn't discover. I just heard about it later um first of all paramount wanted to do an interview at the site we said we can't do that there it's this is winter there's three foot of snow out there so they went and rented this big snow cat from the um ski run could go right over the top of snow drifts. And, okay, here's an interview right on the site, being all covered with snow and looking different. We still found the spot. I found out later that Mike, he was being interviewed too. He's the crew boss. He went back

the next spring. Never said anything to me, but found out later that he had observed that this one tree that was on the edge of the clearing looked bigger than it ought to be. So he took and cut a core sample out of it, then very carefully cut a matching piece of wood, put it in that hole, and sealed it up with caulking compound. He didn't want to be guilty of killing the tree, but you could see that counting back, I think it was 13, 15 years, something like that, 15 years of tree rings had suddenly got enormously thicker. All the rings before that, 85 years, were of uniform size comparatively,

and then all of a sudden they were enormously thicker. Well, that was end of story for a long time until we went back again on another little expedition looking for Geiger counter readings and magnetic readings and whatnot. That because a forest fire had killed a lot of those trees, we were in the clear to get a cross section of these trees along the edge of the clearing. And these thickened growth rings were on the side of these trees along the edge of the clearing and these thickened growth rings were on the side of the tree towards the craft so all those skeptical theories about why there might be a surge in growth cannot explain why the growth was towards this craft and not on the backside so there was a surge in growth in not just that tree,

but in other trees that were in the same area? Yeah, all around the edge of this clearing. Now, has this been studied? The lead researcher, she did a documentary called Travis. I would never name something after myself, but she took it to the U of A. never named something after myself but uh she took it to uh the u of a uh the university has a tree ring uh uh research lab there they didn't want to touch it nothing connected with this subject but just because the controversial nature of the abduction we took samples and pictures of these trees in cross-section where you could see this thickened growth was uniquely towards the craft.

And Ben Hanson, the guy in charge of that expedition, former FBI guy, did some further research, and he found out that the pine trees around the Chernobyl nuclear accident experienced a similar surge in growth. Now, in that case, the radiation was just raining down on everything, and it wasn't one-sided, but it did show that rather than killing plants, this radiation somehow stimulates a more rapid growth, some kind of a—there was some kind of actually scientific papers he found online that explained the actual mechanism of why there's more rapid growth. But it does suggest a radiation source. Now, when I got out of the truck, the crewman that was sitting in the front seat next to me was exposed because I left the door open. I thought it was going to be gone before I could get five feet.

And so he was exposed. And he's since developed skin cancer on his right forearm, which would have been probably the most exposed part of anybody left in the truck. Now, he's standing there. You get out of the truck. Once you jump out of the truck and you open the door, how far away were you then? I immediately started running towards it. Right. How far away was it roughly?

It was probably about 90 feet away. So it was pretty close. Yeah, it was pretty close. And how big was it about? It wasn't real huge. It was, you know, probably not as big as this room, you know. Really? Yeah.

Okay. So the energy hits you, whatever happens, knocks you out. They take off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they were screaming at Mike, it's going to kill us, let's get going. That part of the movie was pretty accurate as far as what they described, the panic.

And Mike nearly wrecking the truck, trying to just floorboard it. Normally in a rough back road like that, you take it real slow and careful, but he was running pell-mell out of there. But he finally got a grip on himself, he said, and decided that they had to go back. Now, in the movie, when Mike says, we got to go back, the crew doesn't want to go.

So they get out and wait. Well, that didn't happen. When Mike said, if you don't want to go back, you can wait here for us, nobody volunteered to wait. Everybody wanted to stay together, stay in the truck, and they all went back. That's what I hate about movies. movies yeah they were changing important facts you know uh who murdered who uh um yeah they they do that kind of shit taking liberties with an actual story but that's

neither here nor there right so we got a we got a remake in the planning stage. Oh, do you? Well, I've talked to a number of people. Some people say, do it now. And I'm saying, well. Be a good time to do it. A lot of interest in UFOs right now. It's higher now after 45 years than it was even at the time.

Well, I think a lot of that has to do with that New York Times story that came out a couple years ago. And then Commander David Fravor's account of that Tic Tac shaped object that they chased off of San Diego coast. So they go back. They all get in the boat, or the truck rather. They drive back and you're not there. They were terrified, they said. And said and of course they only had one flashlight so they said they were all just clustered together uh making a search of the area calling see if uh maybe uh you know when they found my body wasn't lying where i'd fallen. They looked to see if I'd crawled off into the brush. Didn't find anything. At one point, Mike fell to his knees and was crying. Now, one of the

crewmen, I won't even say who since he was offended by it, didn't like the report that he'd been crying when it happened. He was so embarrassed by that. He was furious. I don't think he still got over the idea that anybody told that he cried. But I think every one of us cried in some way or another at the time. So there's nothing to be ashamed of. Some people are taught by their daddy not to cry. Yeah, and he's determined to talk about that.

So what do you remember from that moment on? When I regained consciousness, it wasn't real quick. It wasn't real woken right up real walking right up it was real slow it was dim my consciousness was kind of like in and out for a while I didn't know where I was the pain and the feeling that I was mortally wounded, something was so wrong inside. I felt like I was dying. And this is what really fueled the panic when I finally laid eyes on these creatures. Of course, you know, all of the mental programming that we get from Hollywood that aliens are invading monsters, you know.

Didn't help. But I instantly associated this feeling of dying with pain with them. So I was combative immediately. Where were you? I was lying on my back on a raised table. There was a light above me.

It was not real bright. It was not so bright that I couldn't see the outline of the fixture. What did the fixture look like? Kind like that only much larger um just a soft uh glow and uh in the movie there's a little bit of striking on the part of the aliens uh me. That didn't happen. I lashed out at them.

The one closest to me, I felt really weak. I didn't have enough strength to do much. So when my arm contacted him, he just fell back, very unexpectedly easy, into the other one. And I rolled off the table in the other direction and they came around the table and the three of them were coming towards me and I just grabbed something from behind me an object off of the shelf there and started swinging it at them.

What was the object? It was just some large, long cylinder or rod, glass, some clear material. I wasn't studying it. I was looking at them and swinging wildly, screaming threats. They stopped. And I was planning on attacking more fully, just making way past them.

The only doorway I could see was on the other side of them. And it looked like a doorway? Yeah, it looked like a doorway, just, you know. What did they look like? I guess it's a pretty typical description nowadays. Very large eyes, hairless. Two eyes, nose, mouth. I didn't see them speak or no change in the expressions. And to me, in the

face of all the screaming and the fear that I was projecting, their lack of reaction probably just added to my panic but uh did they feel like they were a living creature or did they feel like they were a robot like well they were without expression i'll say that but you know i've had 45 years to think about that and more recent years i think well maybe if they're telepathic and it's developed enough to where they don't need to talk they also don't need facial expression right and so their ability to communicate with each other would be much richer and more complete than we have and speech and frowns or smiles or whatever would become obsolete pretty quick. Well, that is a theory about where human beings are headed.

If we continue to evolve, that we will one day reach this point where the biological limitations of our monkey bodies will slowly start to fade away. We'll have different abilities, different abilities. we'll slowly start to fade away and we'll have different abilities, different abilities. Well, why would we need to frown or smile if, if you can save much more. And also their, their musculature,

did their musculature, did they look like smooth? Like they had no, no clear muscles. Yeah. They were pretty smooth, very light. When I,

when I hit the one, it fell back into the other one pretty easily, like it weighed hardly anything. Like a little kid? Yeah. That was the most terrifying experience of my life. But when I tell this story and try to relate to people, I'm trying to communicate what I experienced and how utterly, utterly traumatic that was and how it was so devastating. I was, you know, on the verge of catatonic for weeks after it happened. inspire fear because I've had enough time to think about it that I think that it was unwarranted that my reaction was just due to my ignorance of the situation.

The fact that I was returned at all is pretty significant, you know? Yeah. The idea that these beings are just kidnapping people willy nilly and doing terrible things to them. I don't subscribe to that theory. Now, I try to separate what I actually experienced from things that I've concluded just from thinking about it. But it seems to me that, I mean, they've been seen, observed, there have been sightings for all, you know, before I was born. Had you heard of the Betty and Barney Hill story before you were abducted? I probably had.

But I thought if they had some sort of sinister intentions, it'd be a done deal. They wouldn't be sneaking around, hiding. I believe with that level of technology. Look at it this way. Human beings, just virtually everything technological that we have is just a few hundred years old. Before that, the most technological thing we had was fire. And in just the last 50 years, the progress of our science has grown to far overshadow

everything we had accomplished in thousands of years before that. So I'm thinking what astronomers tell us about these other star systems is that they could be hundreds of thousands, millions, or maybe billions of years older than us. So if we accomplished the kind of technology that we have in a few decades, what is possible with millions of years of development? I mean, we couldn't begin to recognize what they're capable of. So I think it's presumptuous for people to say, oh, they could never do that.

It really is an interesting conundrum because we know what we can do and we know where we came from. We have a very clear history of technology when it comes to humans and we also know that there are planets surrounding stars all throughout our galaxy and all throughout the universe but we're still skeptical it's so funny and so first it is but for a guy like you who's actually encountered it even though you saw it it had to not seem real oh yeah you're questioning your sanity for sure i mean it was like uh i was practically catatonic for days afterwards uh a big uh step forward a big improvement was the hypnosis the whole process of hypnosis is sort of a deep relaxation at the same time you're confronting these memories.

That helped a lot. The problem that people have with some hypnosis sessions is that you can be led into false memories. True, and I think that does happen. I think, you know, having been at many, many UFO gatherings, I think some people are mistaken about their experience. I believe, and this is just my personal opinion, I understand. I try to stick strictly to what I experienced. And then my own musings, my own philosophy that I've had 45 years to develop, I think that probably some people do have extremely unique dreams that seem so real that the actual physical event didn't happen.

And I've tried to argue with people about how evil their intentions would be, you know. And I'm saying, you know, the decades that we've been having these sightings, with that sort of technology, if they wanted to replace us on this planet, we'd never know what hit us. No. I don't think that. And actually, I think they're so advanced that if there's sightings, it's not an accident. It's not like they slap their forehead. Oh, humans spotted me again.

I have to be more careful next time, you know. No, I think they'd be perfectly capable of being undetected. We never have any. I think these little glimpses are probably a generalized customization that we might need as a species. But maybe on the other hand, there's some more individual interest. And I used to be really skeptical. I'd hear stories where people were describing them as having some particular interest in them. And I'd think, I'd tell them, you you know that'd be like them walking by an anthill

and saying oh I think I'll have a conversation with that little ant right there right uh humans are a bunch of savages but at the same time I believe they probably do have if you saw one when you were eight years old and you see one as an adult they know it's you. Their ability to process data and retain it and store it is beyond anything we can imagine. I think we're on the verge of that kind of paradigm shift with something I would call the computer brain interface. The minute we can do that kind of thing, it's kind of scary about the possibilities but

i've been at conferences where people talk about these beings as being predatory or evil one guy was trying to tell me that they capture people dissect them and dump their body and I said oh okay name one and he goes well so-and-so and I go no no not the guy who puts this theory out there who's the victim who was found cut to pieces and then he I said so name one and he gives me another name it was still somebody who's promoting this theory and he just didn't get it. I said, what's the name of the victim? And he couldn't come up with one.

So I'm skeptical about that. Well, anytime there's a fantastic subject, whether it's UFOs or psychics or Bigfoot, you find these people that just want to believe. And it's very disheartening. There's something about that. Like it's hard to separate truth from fantasy that's a lot of these folks and I think there's a lot of fantasy and delusion going on and I have encountered other people that I do have do believe had legitimate experiences and experiences but I wouldn't consider them in the majority and

that's an unpopular view but uh no i i share that view uh you know i'm not completely skeptical but i'm skeptical enough i just i also know that it's in it's an aspect of human nature where people want to tell stories that make them unique without actually having to have done anything special in their life. They want to be special. And some people tell stories that make them out to be very special because they've been chosen to have this unique experience with an extraterrestrial. You haven't.

They have. And it makes them, it satisfies these delusions of grandeur that some yeah and i i personally try to downplay that aspect of it i say i really favor the idea that this was an accident it was precipitated by my foolish move of getting too close i believe they probably just took me aboard in order to correct damage that they were a part of that was even unexpected for them. So did you have physical damage that you could see? No, but one thing that leads me to think that all of the repairs they might have done weren't complete was my initial EEG brainwave scan. And this was done at the same hospital where Muhammad Ali did his. And it was very, what do you call it?

Irregular? What's the term? Double blind. Dr. Kandel did not tell the technician what I was in there for. And so he wasn't looking for some particular thing that would support or deny my experience. So he just described an unusual pattern in the brain that in another brainwave scan years later wasn't there anymore. What was this unusual pattern?

I'm trying to think of the exact wording. It was a bisynchronous wave alternating from front to back. I remember those words, but I have the report from both EEGs. So I've been interested in finding someone who might have been hit by lightning or some electrician that raised up against a wire and had a huge amount of energy come through the brain and see if an EEG compares to this weird pattern that they're describing there but uh uh there's a lot of speculation opened and i of course i've done

trying to figure out why what uh happened there and there's uh some amazing uh things that uh sometimes you know, I try to stick to the stuff I can document, stuff where I have other witnesses that, you know, documentable. That's what I go for. And I have this information concerning the EEG, documents of it. So were you dressed when you woke up? Yeah.

Yeah, I was still wearing the same clothes that were clothes from that day. Now, my brother had the presence of mind. When I came back, he had me take all of those clothes, put them in a clean bag, it up he's going to be for examination later but there was such a hellfire after us for days i mean when i went to do the uh the uh mmi mri yeah uh we were driving out of the parking lot, and there he is, they screamed and followed us through traffic. It was just crazy, the level of fear.

And I think, although I know my fear was explainable, justifiable under the circumstances, I now, I try to downplay that because I'm not trying to tell a spooky story. I'm trying to tell people, look, NASA told us just this last year. See, there's been this thing called the Drake equation. It's an estimation of the number of possible habitable planets in our galaxy. Well, they didn't know what numbers to plug in. How many planets, how many stars have planets? Well, this last year NASA said we now can say with great confidence that every star has about a dozen planets.

And they do this on the basis of they can't actually see the planets, but they see this rhythmic dimming that a planet going between us and the star will dim it by a certain percentage of luminosity. So they say it's a virtual certainty that every star has about a dozen planets. So that raises the number of possible civilizations in our galaxy, in the universe, astronomically, no pun intended but uh and uh based on the estimated age of these star systems some of them are actually vastly older than us now i may i make the point that there's probably some aliens who are cave aliens but those are not the ones that are coming here you know yeah the ones that are way way way ahead of us have somehow figured out how to uh make the giant leap between there and here

yeah um i want to take it back to being inside that craft so you remember lashing out at them you remember swinging at them with this rod that you found. And what do you remember after that? Well, the feeling of suffocation may have been some inadequacy of the atmosphere in there. It may have been some kind of injury from being blasted in the chest area. That's where they said the beam hit me, impairing my ability to breathe in some way there's no damage to your clothes no no burn holes or anything like that was there any damage on your body that you could see was there no just just the only trace of prior injury would be oh and uh some dehydration but other than that just the uh MRI so you have this moment where you lash out at them with this uh clear Rod and then what happens you feel like you're uh they suddenly

retreat there they leave the room um I I come up with a theory. It's just my theory that this squirmy feeling in my head had to do with them trying to gain some sort of control or message of soothing or some kind of telepathic sort of thing that wasn't working. And that would be because I was hit with this blast of energy. Describe it like you felt like they were trying to communicate with you. Well, it was jumbled. It was squirmy. That's the best I can describe it. You're filled with anxiety and fear.

And I didn't feel reassured by what I was feeling. It was horrible. What makes you think that they were trying to reassure you though well I in little clues that have come to me over the years I don't believe

that they were intent on causing harm that there was that they're benign and i know that's not popular with a whole lot of people who study this subject but uh i've had 45 years to think about it and i i i really don't think so a lot of people um are very disappointed when i say that they're not they're not uh hollywood's's invading monsters. Think of them as those people from way over there that we don't know too much about.

And I think people are kind of disappointed when I say that. I think they want it to be horrific. Yeah, it was for me, but unwarranted. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I don't want them to be. Look, if they survived this long, I mean, we've got the technology that we could destroy entire cities, just us. I'm sure they would have the technology. They would have obliterated themselves if they had the character that we have. But I think they're wise not to. They tell me, hey, if this is real, how come they don't just land on the White House lawn and say, we come in peace?

That's not going to work, I guarantee you. They look at us and they see savages. That's what we are. Rightly so. As a species, we're savages. Yeah. That's what we are. Rightly so. As a species, we're savages. Well, if you see what happened on Capitol Hill just a couple of weeks ago, I mean, that looked pretty fucking savage. Insane.

Totally insane. Insane. So if they see something like that happening to our halls of government, they're probably... I think they can predict fairly accurately what would happen if they did try to make open contact. And I don't think it would be very pretty. I don't think we're ready. No, not at all.

But I think we can be ready. First thing people would want is give us free energy. Give us the weapon that will destroy our enemies. Stop Russia. Here again, these little guys who look so different from us. But here again, these little guys who look so different from us, look at how we treat each other horribly on the basis of superficial appearance. Here, they look that different from us. People might be real thrilled with the novelty at first, but if they were moving amongst us and like that, the discrimination would be exponentially greater with them. Yeah.

So you said you felt like you were suffocating. You felt like they were trying to soothe you and calm you down, but it wasn't working. Yeah, I was definitely not going to cooperate with them. But what was the feeling like? You said it was jumbled, like they were trying to send you a message, but it was jumbled? Yeah, I was having trouble focusing my brain.

I felt not fully awake, but this fear, this adrenaline was driving a very awakened feeling, but I wasn't thinking clearly at all. But what makes you feel like they were trying to communicate with you or trying to calm you down? That's just what I think about, you know, years of meditating on what my impression was at the time. It was total fear, total feeling of being threatened. And I think that's the reason this entity came in that looked human. How human? Pretty human. Like me, like a normal human. Yeah, and I think they come up with this.

Now, they knew I wasn't going to trust them, and if they didn't get something or someone that I would trust that I that I would die so they enlisted the help of the hell it could be uh uh that there are human-like species visiting I believe there's quite a variety of species of aliens or perhaps they came up with some artificial human looking creation that would

I would trust and take me out of the craft how much time had passed between you lashing out them trying to calm me down and this human like creature coming into the room it was just I was just trying to calm me down, and this human-like creature coming into the room. It was just, I was just trying to find a way out. And he came in, and I assumed he was human.

How much time had passed? Just minutes. Minutes. And when he wanted me to go with him. What did he look like? He looked like somebody I would trust, right? How was he dressed? He was wearing a blue uniform, top and bottom.

A uniform like? It looked like a uniform. Maybe it was just blue clothing, you know, but there was no insignia, no flags or anything. Like a hospital gown, like a surgeon's outfit? It was more tight-fitting. He was extremely strong-looking. So he looked like an athletic human being? Yeah.

And I was a pretty athletic person at the time, and maybe that's what it took in case I was combative with him. Did he have hair? Yes, kind of longish hair. Like a hippie? Probably a lot longer than mine. What color was his hair? Yes, kind of longish hair. Like a hippie? Probably a lot longer than mine. What color was his hair? It was a light color.

It wasn't blonde, but it was a real light brown. So it could have passed for a human being? He could walk through a crowd and nobody would raise an eyebrow. That was probably the intent. Now, whether it was synthetic or there's species out there that look like us, I don't know. So what happens when you encounter this person? He was in a hurry to get me out of there.

When we exited this craft. So what happened? Like you see him, and then what happens? Well, I started screaming. I was still totally hysterical, asking questions, and I wasn't getting any answer. What kind of questions? Well, what am I doing here? What are these things?

You know, what happened here? You know, just one question after another. And he didn't seem inclined to answer. i he was wearing a helmet a clear helmet uh whether that had to do with the atmosphere in there or um like a covid type precautions or something sure who knows but fully clear helmet like a fishbowl yeah like the whole thing's thing's a dome over his whole head? Yeah. But he took me out of there.

I was only too willing to go if he's going to take me out of there. Is he talking to you? No, nothing. And I kept asking questions. But did he put his hands on you? He took me by the arm. So you felt him touch you and then he moves you out of there. Yeah.

There's all kinds of theories. You don't fight against him when he's touching you? Yeah. People think, well, maybe they hypnotically made you believe that one of them looked like a human. One of them looked like a human. But I think that's unlikely because the original problem was that energy had scrambled my brain. I wasn't in a kind of condition where that was going to work. So he takes you by the arm, and what made you go with him? What made you not want to resist and fight him?

This was something familiar. My entire surroundings were threatening to me at the time. So he took me out of there. Did he give you like a facial gesture? Did he like make any kind of like? Actually, there was a little bit of a smile, but totally uninclined to talk or say more than that. inclined to uh talk or say more than that but the fact that we're moving quickly uh i took that to be kind of reassuring in itself and uh when once we got outside it was easier to breathe outside the room outside the craft so you're you've exited the craft how big is this craft that you're in is

it the same size craft is the little long as this room so you're in the same vehicle bigger but uh you're in the same vehicle that you believe you saw when you got hit with the bolt yeah okay and so uh we go into this big uh room um may have been a larger craft somewhere or maybe a base, an actual building on the ground or something. So you exit the initial craft. How do you exit it? Down this ramp. It was cooler outside too. It wasn't as humid. too. It wasn't as humid. I was keenly anxious about where he was taking me. I went across this open area, just inside this room or building, whatever it was. Describe the building? It was like a quarter of a cylinder

on its side, just the part I can see. And these panels that were the source of light in the room had a very sunlight sort of look to it. So whether they were just translucent panels letting sunlight through or whether they were somehow able to recreate that sunlight effect, I don't know. But I wasn't studying the environment so much. There was some other disc-shaped craft in that room. but I was extremely fearful about where he was taking me.

And we went through these doors down this hallway, and he took me into a room where there were some other people like him. No helmets this time. So I was relieved by that because I thought, well, finally somebody can hear me and answer my questions. And they weren't answering, and so I started to panic again, started to resist. But I was still very weak, feeling very injured.

And they didn't have too much trouble forcing me down onto this table. One of them put this mask over my face, just like a gas mask looking thing. I didn't see it connected to any tubes or anything, but I know there was the mask in her hand. Her hand? Yeah. So it was females and males? It looked like a human female, similar in coloring to him. But again, I think they were just trying to find something i wouldn't find

terrifying but um as soon as that mask was over my face i just blacked out it wasn't painful or anything it's just whether i fainted or the mask was that fast at uhhetic or whatever. I don't know. And then what do you remember? Woke up. Felt the cold coming into my clothes. I could tell I hadn't been in this cold place that long. Pavement was cold. There was a light shining from above. I looked up to see where the light was coming from but as I turned to look it went off so I didn't look in time and then I saw this silver metallic disc

hovering there and it just shot up into the sky and I, it didn't turn on its edge and go up. It was just parallel to the earth and then shot up, created a little stir in the air that I felt, moved the branches on that tree, which died recently. I've been keeping track of that. And then it was just out of sight really quick

because it wasn't giving off any light. So you woke up in the woods, in the same area where you had been abducted? Right, outside the town nearest where this happened. Why not take me to where I live if they know so much about me? Why not? Why not to Snowflake?

Heber was the town nearest where this happened um but it was the perfect place for um this kind of uh drop off to occur and not be seen it's got three real steep old canyons coming together in one place and from that point invisible in any direction. I looked down below, saw the lights of the town, ran down there looking for help. I was still in a panic, screaming, pounding on the door. Nobody came. Went on down, found a phone booth

and made a call to my family. And they were suspicious. Could this be real? Is this some kind of a prank? I guess they'd been victims of some people's idea of humor. So you'd been missing for five days.

Yeah. They said, okay, we'll be right there. I guess it was the middle of the night, so I guess they were still up kind of like in a wake kind of situation. And I slumped down in the phone booth. It seemed like right away they were there, so maybe I passed out at that point. The skeptics try to say I was never in that phone booth, blah, blah, blah. They got all kinds of crazy theories. But the fact of the matter is it

was documented by the fact that the operator listened in on the phone call and reported it to the sheriff. So every theory that these skeptics come up with is very concretely found to be false by verifiable evidence. Sheriff sent deputies over there to dust for prints and whatnot, but it was the middle of the night, so I guess they were a little slow in arriving. My brother and brother-in-law had already come and picked me up and taken me away. I was having a nervous breakdown.

My brother said, man, I'm not going to let the sheriff get a hold of this guy in the shape he's in. I'm not going to let the sheriff get a hold of this guy in the shape he's in. That was, you know, I couldn't have withstood an interrogation at that time. And he didn't report it to the sheriff. A deputy came by while he was gassing up his truck, and he told them, ah, just getting ready to go home. And so that was Glenn Flake. He said, all right.

And he took me down to Phoenix. He was interested. See, these UFO investigators had encountered him at the site and said, if he should ever be returned, we have people who know how to handle this sort of thing, you know, people who can do the medical that he's going to require and do the hypnosis in a way that takes his condition into consideration. Who are these UFO researchers that knew all this information, and how many people had they dealt with that had similar stories to yours?

Well, at the time, it was the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization. They were the largest and oldest at the time, going way back. MUFON existed, but they were not at the forefront at the time like APRA was, the Aerophonometer Research Organization. The couple that founded that and organized it have since passed away. And now MUFON is the primary organization, although there's many. And they did have members of their organization, medical doctors, who actually made house call to my brother's house, did a thorough examination at his house and at his office, and then ordered these other tests that were done, the MRI and the EKG, and fortunately, blood tests. Because immediately, the theory that, oh, he's reporting seeing these creatures, huh?

A whole bunch of them were all hallucinating on drugs. And people seriously put this forward. You know, seven people don't have identical hallucinations, but there was not a trace of any drug whatsoever in my body. And this was put through. Did you have food in your system? Like not to be crude, but did you have to take a shit at any point in time? No, I was not shown to a restroom and my clothes were clean. So how that was handled in those five days must have been either some kind of suspended animation or activities and care that I couldn't recall that were blocked.

And there are things that happen that kind of lean in that direction. blocked and there are things that happen kind of lean in that direction you know dreams that i had that i thought might be you know some sort of blocked memory coming forward but the first time i asked tracy a screenwriter on fire in the sky what he thought of that i said do you think that could be some kind of recovery through a block? And he goes, no, it's probably just all these interviews you're doing all of a sudden. Then I asked him the same question years later, and he goes, oh, yeah, that was probably memories coming back to you. Well, who knows, right? It's just speculation.

Yeah, who knows. So when they come get you, when your family comes and gets you, they bring you back to your house, how long does it take before you tell someone the story? What do you tell them? At my brother's house, the hypnosis was witnessed by a number of psychiatrists, and the actual hypnosis was performed by Dr. Harder. And how long after you've been picked up do you get hypnotized? It seemed like immediately to me, but it may have been a day or two.

So do you remember what you said to them when they picked you up, when they said, like, where have you been? Like, what happened? I was having a nervous breakdown. when they pick you up when they said like where have you been like what happened i was uh having a nervous breakdown uh i did describe some stuff to them but they didn't press for details because i knew it was just uh something i couldn't handle um the hypnosis helped a lot the um The hypnosis helped a lot. The extreme relaxation thing that is preliminary to that.

There was a reduction in the extreme terror that lasted for some, just it continued after that. Do you remember the first person you told the story to? It was probably my brother. What was his reaction? Well, since he had seen this tic-tac-shaped thing below the treetop level, probably 10 miles from there 10 years before, he was extremely sympathetic.

And back when he had his sighting, I remember my mother didn't tell me what he was talking about. He just come running back to the house talking in whispers and looking over at us and tell us about it. I found out later. But it had quite an effect on him. But he'd had a number of years to get used to the idea. And when I tell people now, just think of them as those people from way over there that we don't know too much about. Don't see them as a threat because if they were, it'd be a done deal. We'd never know what hit us.

So you tell your brother, and he's sympathetic to it. How do you introduce this story to other people, and how does this story get public? Well, a lot of stories went out. Initially, National Enquirer was bankrolling some of these medical tests and whatnot, brought in the psychiatrists. Let's see, there were some other tests that went on. They wrote it up as part of the deal in exchange for the story. But I got to say that one of the writers in that crew later wrote a description of his experience and he described things fairly

accurately he described my brother and i as teetotalers and then i guess he decided to embellish it he wrote an almost identical thing and edited in some changes that we came out rolling drunk. The psychiatrists were rolling drunk. He was trying to imply that there was some sort of sex party going on with the psychiatrist's wife. And it's totally ridiculous. That's the inquirer for you. Yeah.

Two descriptions of the same events, totally contradictory versions. And that wasn't the end of it. There was all kinds of things where little research was able to demonstrate the falsity of the attacks. But imagine trying to explain this is real and uh people are making up stories you know is the ground rocky and i should have had bruises or was it covered with pine needles that should have burst into flame you know but you can understand that though can't you that why they would be so skeptical because if you've never experienced anything like this, or you've never seen anything crazy, and then some guy that you've never met

has some story about being abducted, most people are going to go, come on. It's fine to be skeptical. You haven't shown me yet why I should believe this. But to make up stories, to try to discredit it, this one guy writes this story discrediting it, and he takes a quotation that another writer had put in there. He had heard that Steve, one of the guys on the crew,

was considering taking a $10,000 bribe to discredit the story. And Mike heard about it, and he was outraged. He says, well, you do that, even though you know what really happened, and would do it just for the money, then you'll spend your money alone, and you'll be bruised. So basically, Mike was threatening him for lying, threatening to lie about the thing. Well, who would have an incentive to give him $10,000 to lie about this? And where would the $10,000 come from?

Right. I have an explanation for that. I have the documentation right here with me. This skeptic was investigated by the FBI, And this skeptic was investigated by the FBI, and they concluded that he was full of it. I mean, they did not believe him, and they actually were investigating him for possibly taking classified information that he was able to gather from his job at Aviation Week in Space Technology and provide it to the enemy. They were investigating whether he had purchased radio transmitting equipment. And the $10,000 offer, I think, came from who the FBI turned it over to.

I have in this folder here a memo from the FBI to the CIA. And basically they're turning their investigation over to the CIA. over to the CIA. I think at that point, the CIA are the ones who switched to the discredit this ridiculous stuff about little green men and whatnot. That's kind of their job at the time. But the CIA at the time, late 70s, was, I mean, people didn't even admit there was a CIA. The memo says, from Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, signed by J. Edgar Hoover, to Director, Central Intelligence Agency. We can put a graphic on of that. And basically, they say we're going to maintain this in RUC status, but now he's your guy. So RUC remains under consideration or something. I don't know, but basically on hold.

But the CIA, I think, were the ones that were supplying the $10,000 bribe. Now, Steve was offered this money, and there's proof of that. The guy who carried the message was Deputy Jim Click. Jim Click carried this out. There were no cell phones. This was 1975 right Carried the message Out there and delivered it to Steve

At his house he lived out east of Snowflake where there weren't Even landlines Telephone And I was at a conference A few years back And Deputy Click's Ex-wife said,

well, I can testify that Deputy Click did carry that message. I was married to him at the time, that rotten bastard. I mean, she didn't like him at all, but she said, yeah, I was there when he brought the message to the house. like him at all but she said yeah I was there when he brought the message to the house and I also independently got the same message from his son after he had passed away that he knew that it was true now the skeptic had written it up in a way to make it look like she was going to take the money. It was a bribe, for hell's sake, you know. But Steve's wife said, what are you doing?

And he says, well, I'm going to tell them what they want to hear. And she says, well, you say this really happened, right? He goes, yeah, but I just want the money. And she goes, well, you say this really happened, right? He goes, yeah, but I just want the money. And she goes, no. If you're telling me this really happened, you ain't going to get yourself in trouble taking that bribe. But I found out later that this guy flew to Texas to find Steve. Steve changed his last name. Why did they concentrate on him?

Because he was the youngest. He was one that was still crying when the sheriff arrived. And they figured he might be the one. Even when they were doing the polygraph, they thought he would be the one to crack. examiner said uh we figured uh it could save us a whole lot of testing if we could just get him to confess and roll over on everybody but everybody passed and uh um multiple times actually steve uh every time he got a new uh girlfriend he took another test he tells me but uh why would he do that because they don't believe him, so he thinks, look, I'm telling you the truth.

So the girlfriends didn't believe? They forced a polygraph test? Yeah. That's what he says. Stiff. Other guys on the crew took multiple tests. Alan was extremely uncooperative, and

they called his inconclusive because you got to get three identical runs through there. So he came back to the same state police polygraph examiner later and took multiple tests that he passed. But I've passed five from law enforcement people. But like I said, if you had seven people testifying without polygraph tests that they'd witnessed a murder, you're going to get a conviction on a death penalty case. So this bribe and the misquoting, it deliberately copied Mike's comment saying, even though you know it really happened and would do it just for the money took that out of the middle of the sentence put three little dots in there and said well if you do that

then you'll be bruised and spend the money alone conveniently editing out the middle of the sentence as a dirty trick you know and you can't deny that the bribe was made because there's plenty of discussion about it. So you feel like they were just trying to figure out some way to discredit your story, and the best way was to bribe the youngest guy, get him to crack, that felt like he was the most vulnerable because he cried a lot and just seemed weaker,

and so they were going to use him to try to throw the whole story into the garbage. Yeah, I think that that was the job that he had was to discredit this whole thing. Did anybody from an intelligence agency or any sort of government research group, anybody contact you and want to talk to you about this story? Eventually, yeah. Here's the deal. At the time, the Air Force had Project Blue Book. Yeah. Eventually, yeah. Here's the deal. At the time, the Air Force had Project Blue Book. And Jalen Hynek was an astronomer in charge of that, investigations.

His job was to discredit them. He created the term swamp gas and other kinds of dismissive sorts of descriptions. Ball lightning. Yeah, those kinds of things. But the minute he got free of them, he formed his own UFO investigative group and investigated them from a serious point of view. Yeah, his perspective was that his time that was spent during Project blue book, his mandate was to try to make these,

all these cases look ridiculous to try to come up with some excuse or some sort of an explanation for them, but that his own experience in reviewing all these cases led him to believe this is a real phenomenon. And so when he retired from project blue, project blue book, led him to believe this is a real phenomenon. And so when he retired from Project Blue Book, then he started actually researching UFOs from an honest perspective. But then this skeptic, the guy I think was later employed by the CIA,

launched an attack against Dr. Hynek and his connection to Project Blue Book. And his connection to Project Blue Book, he was basically trying to drag them down in a very derogatory fashion. And you think all this has to do with the CIA? Well, the FBI investigated this guy and found out, you know, bad things about him. They said something like he was not in possession, full possession of his faculties. And it was a very unfavorable kind of investigation because he was attacking the FBI. But once the CIA took over, it's a whole different story. Here's $10,000. Make this go away.

And it was working. But some things are just you can't cover up, you know. It's not going to go away. This really happened. And this is a very real phenomenon. And people need to know that, but not in an alarming way, in a way to where let's be ready. You know, the reason it's not more out in the open is because we can't handle it. And I think these releases that the military have made, these gun camera footage and whatnot, I think it's part of that a little bit of the surrender. The idea of achieving ridicule to make this go away wasn't working.

To discredit the witness was actually discrediting the investigators because people weren't believing the little green men kind of, these are crazy kind of people. That stuff wasn't working anymore. So I think incrementally, you notice that these official releases have all occurred late on a Friday. You can check into this. They get the minimum amount of attention that way. You get it out there, but you do it in a way where it's not going to get too much attention.

And I think whenever the government wants to release certain information, they do it that way, you know. What did you think about, you know, according to this new COVID-19 relief package, one of the things in the bill that they drafted was that they have 180 days to release all the information that they have about UFOs. I think that's part of this program to come clean, so to speak, fess up, admit that there's something real there. in ufology in America that advocate something called a disclosure where they really release everything.

But they keep acting like our government is involved in some sort of nefarious conspiracy. I don't agree. There are people who will disagree and it's just my own impression of the situation having talked to various people in federal agencies, military, whatever. My impression is that they're not in on some bad thing. Be careful what you wish for kind of a thing.

We're not going to throw open the books and let our enemies know how much we know and don't know. The material has been recovered, the technology that exists. We don't want them to know how much we have compared to what they have. It's in our best interest to keep them guessing. They don't know what kind of secret technology we might have, and it's best to keep it that way. So the idea that they would just lay their cards on the table, gee, just to satisfy the curiosity of Americans, it would be unwise. I think that secrecy is warranted and in America's best interest. I don't think it's sinister at all.

That's interesting. Like I say, just my opinion. But don't you want other people to know? Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Right, but I mean, the idea that secrecy would be within America's best interest to not let them know all of what the United States government knows. Don't you think it would be a good idea to let everybody know? Well, anything the government shares with us, they're automatically sharing with our enemies.

And I know we do have technology that keeps our enemies from trying anything because they're uncertain of the outcome. And the minute you tell them everything, strategically, that's that's a disadvantage for us do you think they have technology that's directly related to contact with ufos i think it's possible that they actually have uh crashed uh debris um maybe something bad that happened like something they shot down or something. How closely do you follow Bob Lazar's story?

I've heard about it, and I've been at places where he was speaking, but I haven't spoke to him personally. Like I said, his description that was converted into a plastic model with the Testors Corporation. You know, little models they sell to people, put together. This actually matches what I saw the closest. Is this something that you could buy? Yeah, it was. What is it called? The Testors?

Testors. Testors is the company that sells little car models, little airplane models. And they had a Bob Lazar UFO? Yeah. Really? What was this? That's all I know. But one thing I do know is a couple that lived in his area that would go out and party with him in the desert, burn a tree and whatnot. And they knew him for years before he came out with this stuff and they knew he worked

at area 51 yeah he wasn't out coming to the newspaper or trying to uh promote himself in any way and um stan friedman god love him uh was skeptical because uh bob lazar wasn't in the phone book. Area 54 S4 UFO sport model by Testors. Jamie, can you still buy one of those? Yeah. Please do. If I want eBay. All right. Get us one of them.

Okay. Work on that. We need that in the middle of the desk. Put it together. Well, they knew him personally. And he was saying he worked out there and wasn't trying to gain any attention it was just a place to work you know and uh this was uh prior to any of the releases so that weighs in my favor uh as far as what he had to say

my conversation with him was really interesting because uh I mean, first of all, the guy was very reluctant to do it. Jeremy Corbell had to really convince him to have this conversation, and it took a while. We had dinner together the night before first, and, you know, people like to believe that they know whether or not someone's full of shit. I've tricked myself into thinking that as well, that I have a good bullshit radar, but I've been tricked. Some people can trick you. It's hard, but they can do it. But the thing about him was the consistency of his story over all these years, this fantastic story that had deep technological complexity to all of

the different elements of the the vehicle the fact that they had proven that he really was a physicist or that he really did work at Los Alamos labs even though they tried to deny his existence they found him an unemployed roll call the fact that he was a real propulsion expert and he had put a jet engine on the back of a Honda and when he talked to the man he he was a real propulsion expert and he had put a jet engine on the back of a honda and when you talk to the man he's clearly a real scientist yeah and stan friedman was saying he was rejecting the story because he couldn't find him in the phone book and i'm saying well if he's working on secret stuff maybe maybe that might be why well that was the explanation

for why um there was no record of his learning at MIT. He had worked on a top-secret project, and the stuff that he had learned at MIT, I can't really say too much about it because the way he described it to me, he asked me not to talk about it. But they were working on something that had to, it was a weapon. It was a type of weapon. And there was no reason for them to make public

the fact that he was being educated by MIT about this. I'll put it that way. I wish I could say more, but I did promise him that I wouldn't talk about it too much. But what he talked about on the podcast when he went into depth about his

experience that's the same story that he's been telling verbatim forever well i found out this last year much to my shock that my real father was a mathematician at mit. Really? Yeah. And that he actually worked on the Apollo moon landing. This was all based on DNA stuff, and can't fake that. I mean, they can find a murderer out of 350 million people, and it's conclusive. They came to me. I didn't question anything. When you see these other stories, like the Bob Lazar story or any of the other abduction stories,

does this compel you to make contact with that person and try to talk to them about their experiences and see if there's some sort of a shared commonality? to them about their experiences and see if there's some sort of a shared commonality? Well, I've been at conferences where Bob Lazar spoke, and we didn't seek each other out. It's just, I don't, I kind of have a policy. People say, what do you think of this case or that case? And I say, too many people pass judgment on me without having investigated. You've got to check the facts first. And since I'm still investigating my own, I'm not going to pass judgment on anybody else's case.

I'm just saying Bob Lazar was known to work there long before he ever came out. And this craft that we saw in the picture, so much like the one in the woods. But there's many different types of craft, and I've seen several of them. Now, when you said you saw the black triangle, when did you see that? Well, it was February 19th, which I know because that's my son's birthday. It was February 19th, which I know because that's my son's birthday. And we were leaving a MUFON meeting at... Dang, I'm so terrible with names. MUFON, for people who don't know, is a UFO research group.

Yeah. And the leader and Tracy Torme spoke there, and we were leaving, my son and I and my girlfriend at the time. And she works at Los Alamos National Laboratory as a security clearance. clearance um we were headed north on the five um to hit interstate 10 to come back to arizona so you're leaving new mexico uh leaving um this meeting in california isA. It's on the little down on the, starts with an L. Okay, so you weren't at Los Alamos. No. She worked at Los Alamos. Yeah.

So you're leaving California. You're driving to Arizona. And saw this little light off in the distance coming towards us. Closer it got, more, this is weird. And then that single point of light turned into three because it was close enough to see that it was three to start with. But this thing was moving faster than any airplane could move. If you watch jet airliners coming in at the airport,

they look like they're barely moving. Although you know they're over 100 miles an hour, they'd fall out of the sky. But this thing moved so fast and then stopped directly over the top of us. There was a light on each of the three points. It stopped right over the top of us. My girlfriend could look up through the back window and see the surface of it.

And then the point that was on the forward side turned 90 degrees, and then it shot off towards the Pacific Ocean. and then it shot off towards the Pacific Ocean. And I wouldn't tell you that story if it wasn't for the fact that we found out that about 15 other people have reported it by the next morning to this website called UFOstalker.com. What year was this?

I think it was 93. Did you have this feeling like, oh, shit, here we go again? Yeah. My son said, should we pull over, Dad? Should we pull over? I go, no, no, keep going. I'm thinking, why in the hell did I do that? We should have got a picture.

But out of those other 15 people, I'm going to track them down and find out if any of them got a picture. But, see, these people were, they laid it out on a map where you could see there was a circle with a number. And none of these people were connected. They all saw it independently. This is over a city the size of Los Angeles. They saw it independently, and they saw that it was tracking the same way that you were describing?

Yeah. Come incredibly fast, stopped right over the top of us turned right angle and headed out you have it must be weird to you to not just have your one individual experience but to see something a second time because most people go their whole lives and never see anything resembling like that yeah it makes you wonder if you know uh that thing about the uh having a conversation with that particular ant on the anthill i used to in favor that idea how ridiculous it was that they were what they call respecters of persons but now reluctantly maybe they maybe they are uh i don't think it makes me special but but I could be singled out in some way.

Well, when we do studies on animals, we put collars on them and release them to the wild. We do that with mule deer and grizzly bears and a bunch of different animals that researchers are studying. They want to track them. So they put collars on them, and then they study their whereabouts. And sometimes they re-abduct them. Sometimes some of these animals actually get accustomed to being abducted. They fly over them with helicopters, and they drop nets on them. And some of them just sort of go limp because they know the drill.

They've been there before. And then even before they tranquilize them, they kind of calm down. I use the analogy of you take a small child and you take them to the dentist. That experience was a monster in a white coat. It's all for the kid's benefit. We're going to fix something that's wrong with your mouth and make it better. But eventually you'll have less pain. But I think people misinterpret there was a number of cases that

i i heard about from someone who performed hypnosis on people having reported experiences and then having medical problems that were resolved afterwards things Things that they had been troubled with that no longer existed. After the UFO experience. After the abduction experience. Like they had been fixed. Yeah. That's the claim.

Did you ever take into consideration the idea that they're studying you because they did have that one experience with you? Much like a mountain lion that they put a collar on that they keep track of you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thought about that. It's not a pleasant

alternative, but I try to think of it as something could be reassuring. I did have an experience, a personal experience, but that I'm not going to tell you about because I don't have 15 other witnesses on that one but uh maybe after that we get off you've already told me so much crazy already

i'll i'll tell you this one after we get off the air why is it it's so crazy you don't want to describe it well i don't have any proof people are going to say, oh, I'm just seeing something that isn't there. But, sir, I'm convinced. Take a chance. One night, I shouldn't tell this. Sure you should. Middle of the night, whole house is sound asleep. Two daughters in their room, my two sons in their room in their bunk beds, my wife and I in the bed.

Middle of the night, sound asleep. All of a sudden, I find myself in an all-out run down the hallway. I'm waking up as I'm running. My body's running. What the hell's going on here? My body's running. What the hell's going on here? I go into my son's room, and he had slipped under the rail holding him in the top bunk,

and the rail was across his throat. Couldn't breathe, couldn't yell, couldn't do anything. Another couple of minutes, he'd be dead. My son, who's with me here, didn't hear a thing. Wife didn't hear a thing. My son said he didn't yell out. It's not like I heard some message in my sleep,

Dad, help me. Something put me in motion. Man, it's hard for me not to cry just to think about that moment. I've hit it on another way. Something really different happened there. Some people think, well, maybe he was flopping around. No, no, I was sound asleep, and all of a sudden I'm running. I think they put me in motion. I've had other experiences that point in that direction.

I don't think that's so outside of what could be possible if some species or some civilization has the technology to send someone from a distant star and send some intelligent creatures to monitor you. I mean, if they really do pay attention to the people that they've abducted, and they're, and, I mean, there's so many possibilities. I mean, it's obviously just speculation, but they might be monitoring you all the time. So that biases me.

I have to admit, you know, I'm biased in favor of them being benign. There's plenty of people that I encounter in ufology that like to think of them as some sinister intent, but I don't see the evidence in support of that. I do see a lot of evidence, but doesn't support that idea. evidence but uh doesn't doesn't support that idea yeah um do you think that maybe it's happened more than once and you don't remember it have you ever thought of that yeah yeah there was an incident when i was a child and my siblings tell me it was a dream now i i reminded them of it here recently and they go they remember that because i never talked about any dreams in my whole life except that one what was the dream uh i was uh it's hot in phoenix and uh we had these big evaporative coolers and the air would blow down the hallway

so it was cooler to sleep on sleeping bags in in the hallway and stay cool in the heat of summer I woke up because something was lifting the bedroll under my feet lifting the blanket or whatever it was I was laying on. And I could feel my feet being elevated. That's what woke me up. I looked up and there was this little man, pale, white skin, huge eyes, hairless, wearing a black suit. And I saw him, and I called out, and he dropped me and took off running. And I got up and ran to chase him, and I couldn't find him.

This house had 21 rooms in it. It was a former mansion of the mayor of Phoenix. A very old house, but had lots of hidden passageways. You could actually go in the crawl space under the house and wind up in the attic without entering any of the living space. I spent days trying to convince my brothers and sisters that this little man i didn't call it an alien at the time i just described this man with his big head and big eyes um picking up the bedroll and uh to this day they'll tell me no it was just a dream but i kept telling him then no this really. And I spent time looking for how he escaped.

But, again, I can't document that, and people will tell me, yeah, that was just a dream. But one of my best friends thinks the thing that happened with saving my son from dying, hanging by his neck, one of my best friends thinks that. Well, you must have heard something and just don't remember it no but you know when people don't want to believe something they come up with a a rational quote-unquote explanation and explain it away and it works for them i'm cool with that still my best friend you know but uh it makes sense that he would want to do that. But it also makes, from your perspective, if you really did experience everything that you're saying, the sky's the limit. Like, the possibilities are endless.

I mean, if you are being watched all the time by this intelligent species from another galaxy or another planet. I have clues about the investigators that I haven't discussed here yet, but that, again, gives me information about the reality of everything here. But what I really want to emphasize to people is please, please don't be afraid. Don't buy into Hollywood's invading monster stuff. I'm not looking for attention. I just want you to be aware that based on the Drake equation, for instance, the likelihood of another civilization making their way here is not some remote possibility. It's an inevitability. It's ridiculous for people to say, oh,

what are the chances of that? Well, the universe is teeming with life, and these other life-bearing planets are millions of years older than us. Look how far we came in a few hundred years. How far did they come in a few thousand or a few million so uh sure they would visit and you know the ironic thing is that uh a science fiction television series star trek came up with something called the non-interference directive where they would visit these planets but they weren't supposed to reveal themselves because you would interfere with their development and cause havoc. And always trying to, if they went down to the planet, they would try to look like humans or whatnot. And so Gene Roddenberry, who came up with this, called Tracy Torme into his office one day.

Tracy Torme wrote the movie Fire in the Sky and scolded him for believing that any of these beings had come here and I thought that was really kind of ironic that he would poo-poo the idea when he came up with something that's probably the best explanation for why they're not landing on the White House lawn the first thing people would do is give us free energy. Give us a weapon that can destroy those guys over there. Gene Roddenberry never wanted to talk to you? I never had the opportunity to. But I mean, wouldn't you think that if the guy wanted to scold the writer of your biography? It's probably just opportunity.

You know, Tracy happened to be in a studio where he was working. This was Paramount. And just wanted to give him a piece of his mind yeah but you know um i went by the green room there where uh james garner was and he called me in he says know, my role in this movie is to be the skeptic here and come down on you guys. But I do believe what you've experienced here. I've looked at the story. And I thought that was very nice of James Garner to say that. You know, Sheriff Gillespie was really proud to be played by this iconic Western figure. And the skeptic role that he was portraying, I think, led Gillespie to present a skeptical face to the public in interviews that he maintained.

Until the end, in one interview, the one entitled Travis, Sheriff Gillespie says, well, yeah, you know, he was conceding. And he actually shared copies of his files that he brought home with him when he was no longer sheriff. The sheriff that took over ordered his deputies to take all those files out in the desert and burn them. That ought to be illegal, you know. He was spending money on remodeling his office, but to destroy any records, I think, would be very, very wrong. And this is just because he's a skeptic? Huh? Because he's a skeptic? That's why he wanted those records destroyed?

Skeptic? Huh? Because he's a skeptic? That's why he wanted those records destroyed? Oh, probably. But mainly just because there's not room in my fancy new office, you know. I see. But who knows what his motive was.

I just heard that he did that. But it was fortunate that Gillespie had copies of it in his home that he shared with us. Copies, actual copies. And another thing, James Garner only had one offspring, a daughter, Gigi, and she went out of her way to contact me and relayed that James Garner actually believed us and that should be reassuring. And it was very nice of her to go out of her way to say that.

And really, many thanks to her for that gesture. One of the most bizarre and interesting theories about extraterrestrials and human beings is that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution. One of the reasons why we're so different from all the other primates that are on this planet is that we've been tampered with. Something came along and accelerated it. It's something that Bob Lazar was told when he worked at Area S4, and it's a part of UFO lore and alien folklore forever.

What do you think of that idea? I have heard that theory before. And, of course, I grew up in a very religious community, and they just get furious to even thought of evolution. Are you kidding? We were, you know, crapped down out of a thundercloud and instantaneous creation. But I do lean in that direction. What better way to create something than by an evolutionary process. What's more omniscient? Building a forest tree by tree

or a handful of seeds that become a forest on its own. And so I don't think it in any way diminishes the concept of an almighty creator. I do think that it's possible that there, whether they created us outright or come in and decided here's a lineage that we ought to accelerate. Here's the deal. Think about this planet's past. The dinosaurs were here for hundreds of millions of years. Humans' history goes back 10,000, 20,000, something like that. And we were a bunch of monkeys in the woods, you know? So why in those hundreds of millions of years, didn't any of those

reptiles evolve into an intelligent version, maybe a reptilian type being? Maybe something like that did exist and they went extinct. Maybe they got gobbled up by the big guys, but whatever. Somebody sent me an email here recently that was speculating on those ideas, so I started thinking about that. Yeah, you know, if they've mastered space travel, space-time continuum, you could get to speculating about space warp time warp all kinds of things maybe they could show us our past all kinds of interesting ideas but yeah I think it's possible that they maybe initiated our uniqueness

or facilitated it along the way, are certainly very interested in it. Maybe quite disappointed. Bunch of savages here. Come on, we can do better than this. But when you think about that theory, and then you think about those creatures that you encountered, the two different kinds of creatures, the human-like creatures, and then the ones that look like the classic, iconic aliens,

and then the ones that look like the classic iconic aliens. Did you think ever maybe one of these is like a different stage of their process of evolution? I've heard that theory. People have said, how do you know they're not us from the future? Yeah. I said, well, it's hard to amaze me, you know. Anything's possible. The unknown is unknown.

But my oldest daughter came up with something I thought was kind of remarkable. She said, Dad, truth is the new hate speech. And sadly, I had to kind of agree with her. My youngest daughter was a finalist in the Model America contest. My oldest daughter, the one that said that, she could do it now after nine kids. I swear she looked exactly like she did when she was still in college and had no kids um some um amazing kids with amazing abilities but uh so i think there's something unique going on there and i could tell you more later okay what do you got in the the folders here oh well i've got uh some art that you might be interested in.

I have a copy of the movie poster. You might want to look at it. And I can sign that for you. Oh, yeah, that would be great. That's cool. November 5th, 1975. There's the lumberjack,vis look at you that's you from from the the time of the abduction actually this was a paramount uh photographer on the set of fire in the sky that took that picture i'm gonna grow my beard back. My kids say, ah, grow it back down. What year did they make this movie?

93 is when it came out. It says it right down there. Hey, I remember the movie. These movies are so compelling to people. Yeah. I mean, any kind of like, whether it's Close Encounters of the Third Kind or your film or any film involving UFOs, Whitley Stryber's Communion, those kind of films are so interesting to people. You know, I forgive the filmmakers for the fictionalizations.

That's inevitable. Any real-life story is going to be changed. I didn't approve of it. I got a copy of the script in advance, and they left out those parts aboard the craft where the most changes went on. In hindsight, some of the changes actually helped clarify certain things. The actor is pictured with a membrane over his face, struggling to scream through it, struggling to breathe through it. And there was no membrane. But if you showed the actor just breathing hard and looking panicked, you wouldn't really understand it without any words saying, I

can't breathe or something of that nature. So I think that was a story device that helped. I think that was a story device that helped. They reduced the crew from seven to five. That's fewer witnesses. That's not an embellishment. I think it was just easier to keep track of fewer actors. And was it D.B. Sweeney that played you? Yeah, D.B. Sweeney played me.

Did you have conversations with him before he played you? Actually, he avoided that. Really? Yeah, he told me, what if I talk to him and I didn't believe him? He said that would interfere with my ability to play the role. And so I appreciate that, but I've run into him afterwards, and he said afterwards that he wished he had talked to me, and I've talked to all these guys uh peter berg uh was um represented by uh they they didn't even give him uh kenny's

name but you know kenny's the name that he's uh portraying uh the religious member of the group. Kenny, a straight shooter from the get-go. I mean, this guy is hyper-religious, and he's actually turned the experience into, he's interpreted it totally religiously. Really? He's gone back to the site on the anniversary and camped out overnight. I said Kenny what

is going on here you don't want this happen to you and he's been very standoffish about interviews and that was the reason he refused to take part in the movie he didn't he didn't it would desecrate it to accept any payment or anything, and that's how totally respectful he was of this incident and what it meant in terms of the source of these beings. I have to sympathize very powerfully with him. He's a total straight shooter, sympathize very powerfully with him.

He's a total straight shooter. But everybody that's still alive, two of the crew have died, stands by what happened to this day letter to letter. And in spite of how any life easier for them might have been if they just, you know, made people try to forget. I've considered it myself, you know. I just thought about what if I just told them what they wanted to hear or just quit talking about it altogether.

Just shut up about it. Have you thought about doing that in the past? Yeah, even now. I mean, it's bigger now with this past year, invitations to speak in Tasmania, Bulgaria, far-off places. I mean, it's book orders from all over the planet. People want to know. They need to know. But I think it's really important for people to know that this is real.

And as much as they would love to explain it away, try to claim we were all hallucinating on drugs, that's a popular way that people dismiss it, you know. Those guys were out there just up on drugs. Seven people don't have identical hallucinations and the physical evidence and the rest of it you know it's a medical medical test disprove this but uh any some of the most thinly unsupported claims people trying to gain attention by saying oh well I got the inside story does it is it a frustrating experience to have this memory have this incredible event happen to you but to have so many people questioning it so many people

I'm beyond being insulted though you know I feel it's my duty to my posterity, the rest of the crew, to push back against this stuff. I know this is real. It's a real phenomenon. Don't be scared, people. I think that's part of what provokes people's reluctance to believe. Not that it's too weird. It's that they don't want to believe something that frightening. But it doesn't need to be frightening.

It's only that frightening because we don't understand. That's why I was most terrified in my life is that I didn't understand what was happening. I think people also don't want to be fooled. One of the reasons why they're reluctant to believe is because it's really possible that it's not true. Not with you necessarily but with most people in these stories there's so many of them that are full of shit and it's yeah it's a ridiculous notion right for the for the the average person's average everyday life experience does not include being abducted by a flying saucer and being... I even take exception to the term abduction nowadays.

That was more of an ambulance call, I guess. It's less frightening, but it's absolutely, definitely less... I mean, I have to let people understand this is real. Do you feel like this is just something that's going to follow you to the day you die? Yeah. It's nothing you need to fear, in my opinion. And it's nothing to distrust the government about. I think that they are doing the best they can with something.

I know they know more than us, the general public, but I don't think their reluctance to just throw up on the books has any sinister implications at all. That's just my opinion. Well, listen, Travis, it's been a really interesting conversation.

I appreciate you sticking your neck out and I appreciate you telling this story all these years. And just, and it's a crazy story. It's a compelling story. And I can't imagine what it would be like to be you. I mean, hopefully in my lifetime, we'll have some sort of confirmation.

February 18th, 19th, 20th of this year, we'll have a lander on Mars in the most likely place for some sign of previous life. We now know that Mars had water at the time, large amounts of it that created these erosions. And the lander is equipped to detect these fragments if they're there. And it'd be kind of nice for me if they could, I mean, if they even found some little microscopic source of life, I think it would help people to realize, yes, life can be elsewhere than here. They didn't used to think water even existed anyplace else and now they know a bunch of places in the solar system where there's water and they've always said, at least on Earth, where there's water, there's life.

Yeah, well, Europa, right? There's an entire sheet of ice surrounding Europa. Yeah. And, you know, Mars has this erosion coming out of this giant lake bed where they're going to land this thing. And it's even got enough atmosphere to where this little drone they've got can fly around and check things out so i'm excited for that to come about it's an exciting time to be alive and uh with the this supposed releasing of information it's part of the covid relief package i mean i don't know if it's actually going to happen, but that's exciting. And it's just exciting that people are pushing for that. And I'm hoping more government officials

are going to come clean and more experiences are going to happen that are undeniable. Yeah, yeah. Just in the abstract, the existence of life in principle, elsewhere off of this earth would be a great start. Great. Well, thank you very much, Travis. Thanks for coming here. Thanks. Great talking to you. I really appreciate it.

Bye, buddy. Bye.