The Joe Rogan Experience - #1612 - Robert Bigelow

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

Robert Bigelow is an aerospace entrepreneur and founder of the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies: an organization supporting research into the survival of human consciousness after death.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hello, Mr. Bigwell. Hello, good morning. Good afternoon. Yeah, pleasure to meet you, pleasure to get to talk to you, and I really appreciate you coming on here. My pleasure.

It means a lot to me. You and I have some shared interests, clearly, in the world of UFOs, but I want to talk, most people know of you because of Bigelow Aerospace. They know that you're this billionaire investor and you're a very successful businessman, but you have a deep fascination with UFOs. Yeah. Yeah, sure do. How did this all get started? Back when I was about three years old, which would be about 1947, and actually of May of that year,

my grandparents had a very close encounter that was dramatic. And they were taking an afternoon, evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to Las Vegas. And they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire. And the object became closer and closer to them and they pulled off to the side of the road. And at one point, then it filled up the windshield, and they thought they were going to die. And at the last second, it shot off and disappeared. And I learned of this story when I was probably 10 years old, because I was three at the time.

And my mother had told me this story. So I approached my grandfather, and he wouldn't talk about it. Now, after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it. And so I went to my grandmother, and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk. So I got the story from my mom, and my grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself because they thought they were going to die. And then he finally was able to drive on back to Las Vegas. So that was the beginning for me. Did he ever describe what, you said it looked like a plane on fire,

but what was the shape of it as it got closer? I don't recall any kind of shape that my mother described. I don't recall that. But they just knew it wasn't a plane. They knew it was something crazy. That's right. So in the family, you know, in the family, the family had an event. And I lived right next door to my grandparents.

And the family had an event that kind of started things at that date. For me, other personal things came later. But for the family, that was a big deal. So this was, you said 47? 47. And 47 was the time of the Roswell crash. 47 was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide. And the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that United States

had done and Russia had done and that there was a lot of interest in in obviously in that well actually Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time right right it was after that but that there was interest in our species by extraterrestrials because they let oh these crazy assholes are detonating nukes like let's let's go take a look at them right well you had uh so-called foo fighters during the war these lights that were following uh bombers and the tail gunners were the ones that saw them most often of course and uh and that happened through through the war And then, of course, Roswell, but before that was Ken Arnold, right? In about June, June-ish. And then July 8th was Roswell.

And there's a direct uptick, though, from the Trinity experiments, right? I think, yeah, I gather my feeling simply is that without any kind of other evidence or proof that that was a huge stimulus. Yeah. So this was around that time. And you had heard about this as a part of, you know, family discussions. Right. And so that sort of ignited the fire initially. Yeah. And I started asking my friends, as I say, when I was about 10, you know, have you any reports in your family of anything? And by golly, a couple of my close friends told me things that they had never told me before.

So, you know, that wasn't necessarily an exclusive event, is what I'm saying. Other people in Las Vegas had seen things at close proximity as well. Now, your relationship to this is obviously something that you've carried for so long. It's been an obsession of yours for so long. Yeah. It started with this this but what personal experiences if any have you had well when i was probably seven or so seven or eight um i used to have what i chalked up all my life to just being silly dreams and i had maybe five or six of these dreams and they I could never make sense of them and I would

be laying in bed on my side and a typical dream always the same there would be three short somebody somethings in a kind of monk robe and so I couldn't see any face, couldn't see any appendages. And these three whatevers were standing there and they were not too far from my eye level as far as the heights and so forth. So these like child size? Yeah, yeah. And so there was nothing in the, I was an avid comic book reader,

but there was nothing in the whole genre of comic books that related to that or movies. And we didn't have television in Las Vegas until 53 or 54. And even after that, it was terrible broadcasting, you know, at first. But so it made no sense to me. And so over my lifetime, I never mentioned it to anybody, including my wife. You know, it's funny how you keep things secret and just kind of for no good reason.

Maybe I would be embarrassed to talk about it. But I finally thought, well, you know, maybe it was just dreams. Maybe it was something else. And so that was the first event personally that I had at that time in the subject. When did you start to connect the idea of these tiny people or human-like things with extraterrestrials? my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject and began to talk with people who made it their business to be experts in abductions. And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process. And just over time, I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it.

But I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it. Yeah, we talked last night about John Mack a little bit, the Harvard. A great guy. Yeah. And he did a lot of these sort of hypnotic regression sessions with people where they described very similar scenarios. Well, yeah, a multitude of different situations. The abduction phenomena was very proliferate in the population, it seemed like. Even we did a survey called the Roper Poll,

and we repeated it three times so that the margin of error was really reduced to like 1, 1.5%. And abduction researchers came up with the 10 questions, And abduction researchers came up with the 10 questions. And so we distributed that. And the conclusion was a fairly relatively sizable percentage of the population had some kind of experiences, according to them, according to the researchers, and according to the poll. I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said. And I had, in my own research, found people that I put them through

regression, not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that. And I found a number of people just here, there, scattered around, maybe somebody in my own staff. And they would come up with these stories and these events. One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head. That you could suggest things and you could create false memories. And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work.

That this style of hypnotic regression and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people, you can sort of help create, especially in people that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion, you could put these false memories in their head. And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic as a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something like that. Oh, that's definitely possible. There's also something called screen memory, but dealing with the first, the power of suggestion. That's absolutely true.

But my experience was with different hypnotherapists, they went out of their way. In fact, maybe if they did make a suggestion, it was just the opposite. They might say, okay, you're on board this craft. Where's the lighting coming from? Is it coming from the corner of the room that you're in? Well, there were no corners. And they'd be corrected right away by the person being hypnotized. And so they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe coax the person to come that direction and they wouldn't do it. The person wouldn't do it. Now, screen memory is different.

Supposedly, if somebody has a very close encounter with supposedly somebody that's ET. You leave that at that. The memory turns out to be entirely different. And that's put into you consciously. And you recall something entirely different than what actually happened. Maybe you saw two deer on the road or something of that sort uh or maybe there were owls or whatever so um yeah that's what's purported to be what's crazy to me is if you go back to betty and barney hill if you go to travis walton if you go a lot of these abduction experiences

people that did not know each other and particularly we're talking about before social media before any of this stuff right they have very similar stories like similar to a disturbing extent yeah well betty barney betty and barney hill was accidental you know i think somebody had uh betty or barney had a sleep problem and they went to try to get some therapy for a sleeping disorder i think there was some kind of connection like that but it didn't have to do with oh my gosh we have this recollection the story evolved through the therapy and in order to try to fix this other problem all of a sudden this story starts just to flow out. And so I don't know whether it was Betty first and then Barney later. And I think Barney resisted going under hypnosis, I believe.

And then everything just started pouring out. There's a woman named Angela Hill. She's a top UFC fighter. And she's actually the granddaughter of Betty and Barney. No kidding. It's crazy. And I didn't know about it until after we did a conversation. I was interviewing her,

just talking to her about her fighting career. Yeah. And at the end of the conversation, she, like, when we were done wrapping up and about to leave, she's like, oh, I forgot to tell you.

And then she tells me that her grandparents were Betty and Barney Hill. I'm like, what? That's amazing. That was her grandfather. Did you inquire? Did you ask her?

Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about it. And she, you know she didn't have a much of a memory of him but you know her parents recalled the the the scenes right that he described and you know obviously it became this huge national story i mean i remember hearing about it when i was a kid so sure and it was in the 1950s right yes yeah and there was no there was no archetype that you would sort of model your memories after. I would wonder, like, if I ever did hypnotic regression today, I would be very skeptical of my own memories. Because I've heard so many stories of these spaceship encounters. I've talked to people like Travis Walton. I've talked to people like Travis Walton.

I've talked to people like Bob Lazar. I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things. I would think that my memory might be tainted by my expectations. But you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill. These people, there was no stories like that before then. This is not some pop culture thing that they were latching onto. And even the way they described these creatures, the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, 20 plus years later, it's very eerie. Right, right, right.

And the same thing with, well, like Ken Arnold's sightings. You know, that was virgin territory back then in uh 47 explain that to people well so ken arnold was a pilot and uh that's in that movie phenomenon right isn't it described in that uh maybe so the phenomenon maybe so and so he was flying over mount shasta or somewhere in was there and saw these objects, nine objects, kind of skipping along in formation. And he, being a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed, calculate that. And they were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft. traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft.

And the shape that he described was, I've always thought of them a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail, kind of a little bit of a curved boomerang kind of shape to the craft. And that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their own sightings, military backgrounds, people that had major rank or captain rank. So they had stories you would listen to about their experiences because they were professional observers in the military. Professional observers in the military. And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text, and I shared it with everybody at the table. And it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple of days.

And they're trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's a recording of them discussing it. Whether it's abnormal or conventional, that should never have happened in that proximity to that aircraft. Right. So if it were an accident, that's a really bad accident to come that close. And if it were flying in the line of flight and it sped that fast over its head, it was really moving. Yeah. Well, it was a conventional commercial aircraft, go 400-plus miles an hour. American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO. An American Airlines pilot reported seeing a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying.

a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying. Sunday's American Airlines flight AA2292 was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus A320 aircraft over the northeast portion of New Mexico at 37,000 feet during what was otherwise a routine flight. One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center. He said, do you have any targets up here we just had something go right over the top of us i hate to say this but it looks like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing moving really fast right over the top of us so what's missing is propulsion signature right so they that should

have been evident that it had some kind of propulsion. That you could see the burners. Some kind of exhaust was going on, right, you would think. That they could detect that if it were in the line of sight, if they were behind it. Well, that's a very short description, though. I mean, maybe it did have some sort of propulsion that they saw. That's all we saw. I mean, maybe there's a report that will come out where they describe it in detail that's just them calling it in right yeah if it's not super unique then was one hell

of a mistake right yeah i mean but so it's just yeah there's a lot of those that's the problem there's there's a lot of these and there's there's video of them like the the one what is it the one that's uh on the east coast that's moving over the surface of the water at insane rates of speed and you see it and it also no heat signature, no obvious method of propulsion and doesn't exhibit because that one was done

I believe it was infrared, the camera so you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing how it was being propelled at that insane rates of speed. And you hear these pilots who are used to flying. They're flying fighter jets. And they're like, holy shit, look at this thing.

And they're kind of freaking out. Well, the good news is there are so many more people with cameras than with cell phones these days. And so you have a much more aware public than you did, what, 25 years ago in 1997 was the so-called Phoenix Lights. And they weren't just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona, some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix in the twilight of the evening where thousands of people saw structure.

It wasn't just lights. It wasn't just could it be confused with flares, dropping aircraft, dropping flares. And no such things had occurred anyway at that time, that day. And so people saw structure. And the structure was estimated, what, a quarter mile maybe from tip to tip, a boomerang kind of shape, kind of craft. And yet that should have been a really big deal news-wise. Right over a major city, so many observers, but it wasn't.

But it was, though, right? Because we all know about it. Well, but then, of course, the governor at the time was Fife Syrington. And we know now that he didn't know what to do because he was an actual witness that he admitted to 10 years later of actually being a witness. Right. But he didn't know how to address that. Well, that was the famous press conference. That was a famous press conference.

He had a guy dress up like an alien and made a mockery of it. Exactly. Yeah. If he had done just the opposite, what might have happened on that with his testimony as being a witness, a governor of a state, and then draw that other people that might have come forth more and more volume of folks saying, yeah, me too. I saw it. I saw it. With your understanding of the way the government sort of processes this kind of information, that it's not available to everybody. And the information in terms of what these things are,

what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on or whatever it is. Unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily want to broadcast what it is. And they certainly don't want to broadcast it if it's not one of ours. Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this? Or do you think it was his own personal decision? My feeling is it was his personal decision.

And my feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore. Maybe it was back some quite a while back, but I don't think that I think that denial is is able to be to be carried forth without government encouragement. So he probably did it just to calm everybody down. Yeah. He probably felt tremendous pressure, right? Because I remember this was an enormous story. I mean, it was going all across the United States. People were talking about it.

And then there was all sorts of sort of semi-reasonable explanations about dropping flares. The thing about the dropping flares, though, were that they hovered in the sky for a long time like it didn't make any sense that flare like are they defying gravity how are they just because there's video footage of it from multiple sources home footage where people are filming these things where these these red lights that are just hovering in the sky but the red lights coincided with these triangular shaped vehicles or boomerang shaped vehicles that other people

were seeing well there were people living on camelback mountain and that at that this is how low this this craft was to the surface is it they got a edge on view yeah coming in practically at them just slightly over and went over the mountain but there's no video of that right not that i i don't know there There could be. I don't. I've never seen that. And this was 97. 97. Yeah.

Yeah. See, that's, you know, phones back then, not everybody had a phone and they didn't have good cameras. Right. The thing about even today, you know, with cameras and most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom okay with a with the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series the new ones they actually have setting where you could take photographs of the moon because they have some

pretty spectacular zoom capabilities it's pretty interesting stuff if you got one of those and you saw something in the sky maybe you could zoom in on it and get a good shot of it but But, you know, you're talking about things traveling at insane rates of speed. It's very far away. You're really not going to get much anyway. No. It's got to be much closer to really have definition of what it is you're looking at. Now, there was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet

that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object, and apparently it was a very clear image. It was a very clear image, and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were going to release it, and there was hesitation about releasing it. Do you know about this? Well, is that the one off the East Coast? Real recently. No, I'm not familiar with that.

Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? I think we discussed it with... The picture that you can see, they zoomed in on it? The picture apparently is bullshit. That picture apparently is not real. But there was one taken by a pilot in the plane. Yeah. A couple, two, three years ago sometime.

Oh, a different one? Is that that? See, this is... Pentagon responds to release a photo taken from Navy pilot A couple, two, three years ago, sometime. Oh, a different one? Yep. See, this is a Pentagon response to release a photo taken from Navy pilots showing unidentified objects. I heard that this was nonsense. I heard from people that are in the know that this is not the image that they're talking about. The one they have, this is according to people that are in the military. The one they have is much clearer than this. There's more than one image, right?

I don't know. We may be talking about different ones maybe i don't know okay uh break sorry breaking uh debrief media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community which purportedly shows what the dod has characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon i don't know if See, look, obviously I'm just talking out of my ass, but what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much clearer image in question that was pretty stunning, that they were debating on whether or not to release. Because once the New York Times in 2017 published that front-page article that showed some of those images that had been captured from the video cameras and that fighter jets experiences and and talked about commander

david fravor's experience with the tic-tac ufo off the coast of san diego that sort of like released a lot of uh pressure on the concept of if if you discuss these things you're a foolish person right for a long time and i'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been of if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person, right? For a long time, and I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in the game for a long time, right? Discussing UFOs in 1970 or in 1980, like people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something, right? I was too busy being in business in those years.

You didn't care? I was too busy being in business in those years. You didn't care? I had a little plan I was following that I put together when I was a kid. And I was on a mission to be in business, to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff. Yeah, that's one of the more interesting things about you like you became like a hotel tycoon and a real estate tycoon gathered up all this money so that you could study ufos and and do fun things maybe in space yeah well you've also been involved in creating shelters and structures that people can actually live in in space right that's the the Genesis and the Genesis. Well, we call it the B330 is what we have on our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units as far as hull and bulkheads are concerned and longerons.

And so we had to shut down because of the COVID. And but we have very advanced structures. Yeah, and these have been implemented too. Some of them have actually been, you've actually put these things. We have a TRL-9 because we have a structure, scale structure, that's on the ISS now. um that's on the iss now yeah so your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in space travel like you're this is real like yeah you're a guy who actually has contracts with you know big government not that i've ever made money back you know it's been a bottomless pit has it been yeah sure so you've just done it as a passion on a on a maybe a hope and a prayer you know kind of thing

hail marys and part of it is because of your obsession with extraterrestrials i'm not i don't know i don't know uh probably that probably is a connection there because you're made aware that there is a whole lot more out there than what we know and and what people think so that could they are there probably is a connection that was always was do you have any images of that see let's pull it up so people could see what we're talking about the stuff that you've created yeah so this one so that's that's an older version that we did quite a long time ago um we have a full scale that's that's just a one-third scale uh basic architectural features and accommodations for for living um

space okay now yeah i think those are those are full scale uh architectural renderings now down at the bottom keep okay so um that's full scale that one right there yeah that's an old version but that's a full scale that's 330 cubic meters and um it's it's a full scale. That's 330 cubic meters, and it's a more crude mock-up than what we have now. And the standard volume on a module for the ISS is about 120, or the largest is around 120 cubic meters. So 330 is about almost three times that. So when you design one of these things or when you go into business to create one of these things, what's the steps that you're taking?

Do you contact engineers? Do you bring in – I mean, how do you decide that you want to go into business to make these things, and how do you go about implementing it? So, you know, it's been a 20-year process. You know, it's been a 20-year process. And first you try to engineer. In fact, nothing about the origination was original with me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done in the early 90s with something called the TransHab. And it was a vehicle to take people to Mars. And Congress cut the funding for that. And, oh my God, how could they do such a thing? Because it was very apparent, apparent that that craft was really cool

for a lot of reasons. And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that. And then after about three years, acquired a license, exclusive license, to use their patent just for the enclosure. No book of instructions came with it.

There wasn't a manual saying, here's how you do this. And so we started from scratch and we had no assistance from NASA whatsoever in arranging the architectures and engineering. And then through a process of trial and error and testing and testing and testing. Destructive testing, long-duration leak tests, destructive because you had to try to quantify the strength of the materials. And we were using factors much more demanding than the factors for metallics. Factors of four instead of metallics, maybe one and a quarter or something.

And we finally engineered envelopes that were very durable. Ballistically, we did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second six to seven depending on the type of gas gun you're using and seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast actually the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet, for example.

Kind of crazy, but for some reason that... And when you mean defense, you mean something like micrometeors or space junk? Yeah, actually, it's smaller than that. You know, maybe the size of a centimeter, which is actually a big particle historically to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever. big particle historically to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever. I think maybe some of the solar rays have been hit by something that large. So you're defending against also radiation. Aluminum structures are not what you want to be inside, especially for deep space missions outside of LEO, low Earth orbit.

And there's something called secondary radiation that propagates. So in the background, galactic radiation has heavy protons, and it's more lethal. So what did you do to shield your habitats from radiation? Well, the hull has no aluminum structure so and the hull is a matrix of many layers of different kinds of materials and those materials are like Kevlar you know or Vect Vectran. We use Vectran for a couple reasons. But it's like Kevlar. And so through a series of other materials in addition to that type of material,

you start to evolve a shield. to evolve a shield and the shield on a b330 overall is about 15 to 18 inches thick and there is there are spaces in between layers so it's not as though you compress it and it's going to be a foot and a half thick right but it's those spaces that make a difference and how debris breaks up and finally just becomes dust or if it's too fast and too large it's not dust it's going to succeed on going through and when it does is there a patch method yeah they used to first of, you have to maybe locate. There could be things on the hull that are in the way because you use the hull as an attaching surface, and so that volume is very useful.

And so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on the size of the particle. If it actually was significantly large, it'd blow off whatever was attached to the hole, maybe just put another hole right through whatever was attached. So it'd be easier to find the hole. That's the good news. Bad news, the gas is, you know, your gas is escaping a lot faster. So you do have some time though, in a large volume, for that gas to totally escape. So then you have to make a judgment as to, do you have time to create the patch and it's actually fairly simple process because

anything you put there wants to stick to the wall right? But depending on a basketball size something there's not an explosion it doesn't go boom like a balloon it just loses gas and you know your air and uh so you'd probably have time to go to the airlock unless uh you're on the party or something you'd have time to escape but that would be the move you really wouldn't want it yeah you want to be able to go someplace else you know hopefully you're attached to something that can accommodate whoever's on board why did this become your your area of specialty when it comes to aerospace?

Like, why did you invest in this? Why did you invest in habitats? Well, at first I played around with some other companies. I invested in two or three other companies in the late 90s. One, they were rocket plane type companies. I came very close to investing in what Bert Rutan was creating before Virgin came along.

And so I was looking for some place to go, somewhere to put capital, money, and energy and passion into something. And so I did these these investments in these different companies and then i stumbled on the trans app you know so so your initial idea was maybe some sort of commercial space travel type investment something like virgin galactic or something like yeah i really didn't know i think the most enticing thing was what Bert was working on. And the financial model for that was very attractive. And I think he was, of course, he's an aircraft design genius.

He has so many awards, you hardly can count them. As you walk down the hallway to his office, it's like floor to ceiling plaques. You know, you got a couple extra just for souvenirs, you know, something, you know. And so he's a total genius. And he, by the way, had his own UFO sighting that has stayed with him all his life. How old was he when he had it? I don't know. You'll have to get that story from him, but it's worth listening to.

So many people have. So anyway, that's how I started in that, and I fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, launching something with a finite fairing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that volume once it's ejected and it's launched, you know, and the fairing opens up and now you start to expand and inflate. And, wow, all that you can do with that volume is really cool. And so this allowed you to, I mean, these contracts, if you're doing it with the ISS,

are they with NASA? Or like who, is that who you work with? Yeah, NASA basically has been the only game in town for us and for most folks. Most folks in the rocket business, other than for the Air Force who buys launches for satellites, NASA is the game still. And when

NASA is financially hurting, everybody hurts. Depending upon who is providing the leadership, both in Congress and in NASA and in the White House, you can do fantastic things. So it's all a combination of whether or not people can all work together if they're fighting in congress and going on you're not going to get much you're not going to go go places like you could yeah so with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long-standing obsession with ufos and potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting. You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn something now. Oh, definitely.

You're definitely going to learn. Absolutely. They have a lot of good people and very expert people. So you're going to learn a lot. It's a great place to sponge all that you can. I mean learn things about UFOs and alien life. Oh, that. Oh, that.

Oh, no. I was back about conventional space travel. Well, that too. What better way to learn? I mean, what better way to learn? You're not going to learn anything about UFOs and E.T. from the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the scientific community. And that includes NASA and everybody else. Are they not interested?

I think it's a combination of things. I think the reason for that is not because they're not interested. And a lot of people are. Because I'm asked're not interested, and a lot of people are, because I'm asked things all the time. A lot of people are. I think there's always the concern of embarrassment. I think they're not in a position to be an investigator. They might have a passion and want to do that, but it takes time. It takes time and effort to go do those things. And usually you want to stick to what your career is, right? So, and maybe they've had somebody in their family that has had a tremendous story. And so they'll carry that with them. And they might buy the books they keep at home.

They might brown bag it, you know. Not bring it to the lunch at commissary where other people can see what you're reading. You know, so it's all different kinds of things. So everybody's different. So there's kind of maybe a shame or something along that line involved in pursuing extraterrestrial ideas? Not as much as it used to be. Right. Now, it was much worse 20, 30 years ago. What was it like then?

Well, as I could speak to, you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to talk about UFOs 30 years ago, I think, than today. There's been so much more exposure on the media. So because you have regular television program now on aliens, ETs, ancient aliens, whatever, doesn't matter. It's all over the place compared to 25 years ago. So it's a different kind of world. It's a different kind of world.

But the thing about the UFO ET subject, as you continue to do research and work in that whole community, is kind of a strange frustration about acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion, of movement, and where we are. We're still working with fire engines. And thank God for people like Elon and Jeff Bezos. I really respect those guys, including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen, his president. The country is so lucky to have them. But the dynamicism of UFOs and ETs is so overwhelming as to what that world is like. so overwhelming as to what that world is like and if it's all true or even some of it true it's more than just a holy cow it's oh my god you know so it's like night and day comparison

and and here we are still in 2021 and um still waiting to get back to the moon well i think when we we were talking earlier about the New York Times article, I think that was a real pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things. Because when you see something like, printed on the front page of the New York Times, when you see people like Commander Fravor, very well respected,

you know, all full respect. No one thinks that guy's a kook. Oh, no. You read about his experiences and you go, okay, there's something to this. And Leslie Keen, the journalist that did that article, did a terrific job. Fantastic job. Just fantastic. And it's a dangerous subject for someone.

Yeah, it is. Because you're open to ridicule. Sure. But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there we could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore. There's something to this. Right. That's right. When you have like Commander Faber and we hired Doug, one of the pilots there, we learned about that in 08.

The event happened in 04. So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomalous and has no business doing what it's doing. So you got to take it really seriously. Not only that, things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from, well it's like 80,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second, and then traveled to the agreed upon destination where the plane is going to go later. Yeah. Yeah.

Like they knew, it knew where they were traveling to. It was able to travel at an insane rate of speed that's not even, it doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized. No. No. at an insane rate of speed that's not even, it doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized. No. No. So these are things

that were tracked by instrumentation. So it's not, this is the best instrumentation. This is instrumentation that's used by the United States military to protect the borders. This is all the real shit. So when you read things like that in the New York Times,

everybody has to kind of go, huh. Yeah. Okay. And then you couple that with hundreds of thousands or millions of other events and stories that have happened over the last 50, 60, 70 years. You think, oh my God, we're so far behind, you know, of what else is going on right because we've been

so afraid of ridicule how long is it going to take us to get to that point right you know and do we even understand even the beginnings of the physics of it because what if their consciousness operated you know that's it you don't have the right signal middle signature isn't going anywhere nothing is coming on now there's no lights the dash didn't light up right so sort of like when you walk up to your car like uh i have a ford f-150 when i get near it it knows i'm there because my key fob sure you know and when i touch the handle or like a tesla somebody else has your key fob yes it's gonna it's gonna light up but instead of it being like like a tesla key fob when you get to it the handle opens up so you can open the door right because you get close to it's pretty cool yeah

sure but instead of that it's actually your consciousness yeah and what if you're not even close to it yeah what if you're on the other side of the planet and you want it to start like you can with a car with a with an application like if you have a tesla you could roll your windows up with the app you could lock it with the app right it operates through wi-fi who's to say they can't do something like that with with consciousness yeah we have no no idea i mean it's not even that's not even outside of what makes sense. If you followed the technology and the technological improvements over the last 15, 20 years, and you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 years, I would go, yeah, that's not even crazy.

Well, and our physics is incomplete, in my humble opinion, because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal basket, not just what we're talking about with ET UFOs, but all the other kinds of stuff that has been done in laboratories for many, many years on camera by people that have performed really strange things. You mean like quantum mechanics? No, no.

Like micro, macro, PK. Just take something simple. What is that? Just manipulating material objects, whether they're electrons or a bottle cap. And so let's say you've got a screen computer, and it's hooked up to a random event generator, which is flipping a coin many, many hundreds of thousands of times a coin, you know, many, many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm, even line, this 50-50 across your screen. And then there's another line coming along,

and your challenge is to have the two lines deviate. So you're, and I don't know, it's been so many years since I was in the pair lab with bob john and and brenda dunn i forget the exact details on this but the point was there was a line that was created a second line that you were to think about and try to deviate that line and you should not be able to do that at all so they have maybe a one flat line on the screen and then you have this random event generator that should be 50-50 right alongside that same line. But it's not.

You're causing it to go up or you're causing it to go down. And they had a lot of people successful on this, many, many, many. And they did just a huge number of trials that were successful. So that's in the smallest context. You had that Russian woman, Kalignia, something like that was her name, that worked with objects in a bell jar. And she would be able to manipulate them, cause them to spin, cause them to lift. Objects. What kind of objects?

Small objects. Something small. Microscopic? No, like a bottle cap you know something that size so some sort of telekinesis uh macro pk so you're it's it's it's some kind of a consciousness connection that is causing the effect that effect on that object this is something that's been filmed oh yeah yeah so this woman is doing what and she she died at a relatively young age her heart they said would go up to like 180 beats or 90 beats a minute and i while she was doing this yeah and i she was just this is this lady oh your guy is good he's the

best he is the best so what is she doing here? Well, she's... Oh, this is like really old stuff, huh? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She's moving... One of those matches? Yeah. But she's also moving that piece of metal.

Right. Mm-hmm. And there's other ones where she would do this and these things would be in a bell jar, I believe. So she's not touching it. She's making it move. Yeah. And I think they literally wore her out what year is this yeah but here's my problem this is something that's on the table i can't see

below the table i can't see if there's a bad a magnet i can't see what's underneath this deck of cards there's a piece of metal and you can move things around with fuckery i don't know if this is real and those matches were moving because that piece of metal was moving the matches right so the piece of metal was plowing the matches and she's got it moving around i'm not buying into this but on its face yeah it's really intriguing it's intriguing but it's a party trick like to even i don't even like the way it's set up the way it's set up on a table and she's doing this with her hand and her lap is right there and anything could be happening there it's cool if it was real but and that's that looks really old like what year is that i don't know probably 50s yeah yeah i don't know but so the point really is if you were to make it a a job to accumulate this kind of information from as many

sources as possible you'd really have a large volume of stuff and then you'd have a lot of material to look at and analyze not just one case i think it's easy to to look at one case and and have doubts because it is just once. It is one situation. Do you think that things like psychic powers or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas, these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings? Like as a human evolves, as we go from being a tree a tree dwelling primate to being what we are today where people are intuitive and we can sort of read social cues and we understand each other and we can talk and communicate using sounds and noises

that as the human animal evolves they'll eventually develop some sort of a psychic power so that in a way that's connected to supposing that those psychic powers already exist to some degree. Maybe in some people more than others. Right. Right. So that means there are white crows, like we talked about last night. Yeah.

Okay. Can you explain that concept to people? Well, there shouldn't be any white crows. White crows aren't white. So there shouldn't be any anomalies like that. So if you come up against a white crow, you've really found an anomaly. So now the question is why? How did this happen?

Well, it's an albino, right? It's just a genetic aberration. So it's a metaphor. Right. So it's a metaphor saying you've really come across something that shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Right. There's no way this should happen.

Right. Right. And oh my gosh, here's another one. And it's a cousin. It's different. It's in a different area of the whole psi basket. What's going on here? Well, we already know that there are extreme variations in intelligence.

We know that there's people that are just not that bright. And then there's people like Elon Musk. And these people like this have existed forever. Well, he's not from here. We know that there's people that are just not that bright, and then there's people like Elon Musk. And these people like this have existed forever. We know that. Probably. He's not from here anyway. Yeah, most likely. If there's an alien amongst us, that's him.

But, I mean, if you go back to Nikola Tesla, it's sort of the same sort of situation, right? He was clearly of not just superior intelligence but superior vision. He had this ability to look at things that didn't exist and figure out a way to create them. And that's a very unique thing. And what is causing that? What firing of neurons, what personal experiences combined with education, combined with innate creativity

makes a person create something. But that's not as paranormal. No, it's not. But it's a different aspect of being a human being. Now, we all know that some people are more intuitive than others. Some people are more sensitive than others. Some people are better at understanding. Some people are really good at picking out liars.

Some people are really good at picking out talent. They understand people better, right? As the human animal evolves, we could only surmise that those types of skills and those types of qualities that a human being can possess could possibly get better. If you get two very intuitive people, they have a child, and the child is even more intuitive than them. And that some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be something that's emerging out of the human animal. I would never say never.

I think a lot is possible. I think what may more likely would happen, I think what may more likely would happen, because we're shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a separate situation from being able to perform things that are more unique than just being creative. So I think that you might have small circuitry and small things that are added to the human brain to enhance its capabilities. Like neural link. Yeah. And that's much more likely in terms of human evolution than that future generations are going to become enormously psychic and enormously cause and effect using consciousness.

So whether it's clairvoyance or telepathy or psychometry, micro, macro, PK, remote viewing, the whole basket. Those are all real, and they have all world-class performers in every one of those things. Remote viewing is a great example of this because we know for 20 years the CIA and the Army had programs in this, and so did the Russians. Right, and we talked about remote viewing last night, too. I'd done an experiment on a show that I had, and it wasn't effective at all. But that could have been that the person that was doing the remote viewing was a fraud, that maybe there are people that do have that ability. Now, has it ever been clearly demonstrated that someone can do that? Have you seen it personally well i've hired somebody to do it twice for me but i've also what do they do have friends that ran the programs what did they do what the people that you i tasked him to uh to describe a longitude latitude location and describe it uh what was the surface what was underground those kinds of things. And they were accurate?

Yeah. How accurate? Very accurate and gave me information that to this day I don't know if it's true or not because it was underground information that I don't even know. But it just came in the, that came as a, here, here's a bonus. I'll tell you what's underneath. So the government had these programs, these secret programs that they were studying remote viewing.

But their official conclusion was that it was horseshit, right? Oh, no. Wasn't it? Oh, gosh, gosh, no. Public? No, that was never concluded in that way. What did they say publicly about remote viewing? Did they ever say it's 100% effective and real?

I think there would probably be at a point in time it was classified for a long time. And then it became more public eventually as a program aged and so forth, as things usually do. To be 100%, you could acquire by having more than one viewer have the same target. It increases the likelihood of the accuracy of the information. 100% is a lot to ask for because you're getting a drawing at the same time you're getting conversation. And sometimes the drawings revealed more than the conversations did. And sometimes the drawings revealed more than the conversations did. So the remote viewer would also be in a position as an experiencer. So if his or her target was at a certain location and the person was eating an orange, for example,

a remote viewer could almost taste it, could almost hear the gravel that the person was walking on, feel it under their shoes that they're walking. Now, what was the methodology? How would they go about doing this? So, first of all, the aspect of this is though you're over the person's head that you're... So we have to go back and say there are different kinds of remote remote viewing first of all so i'm just taking one type where maybe your target is a person and the person is at a location and maybe the location is a a wharf a

boat dock there are a lot of boats and maybe the gravel pathways getting there maybe they're having a fruit in their hands an an orange, apple, whatever. And so the remote viewer is back above the head, kind of like an out-of-body experience is the way that those are reported. And you're watching yourself going down. We can talk about that later. Going down a hallway. But you're above yourself. Same way with remote viewing sometimes.

They would be in that kind of a position. And so did you describe everything in your drawing maybe not well then you didn't get a hundred percent did you but you you were spot on as to where they were you could go find that location and that's actually where they were at that point in time that was true that's exactly where they were so they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were. So they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what their surroundings look like. That's the tip of the iceberg. The tip of the iceberg. But what was the methodology? How would a person remote view? Would they be alone in a room? Would they have to

achieve a certain state of meditation? Like what did they do to do this? So they would be in a room and with a control per controller, I forget the terminology now that they used. So the remote viewer would be there at a desk and pad and paper and there would be the person sitting across as a controller. And then at the appointed time, and it depends on how these remote viewing sessions sessions were constructed i think uh the real people that you should talk to are the guys that ran the the programs i'm i'm just you know i talked to ed danes that's the guy that i talked to the only guy i would recommend uh people like hal putoff he be a very, very good person to talk to on this. So how would someone learn how to do this,

and who figured it out initially? Don't know who was necessarily the first. You have early players like Pat Price, Ingo Swann, I think Helen Hammond, Joe Monigal, those kinds of folks. And I'm not sure the genesis of how it began. A lot of times things happen by accident, right? And you stumble on something and say, oh, wow, what just happened? Right. But it has to be some sort of a repeatable skill, like something that you could teach someone how to do, right?

repeatable skill like something that you could teach someone how to do right yeah and and i believe what i've been told is is that um most people have some degree of abilities that are beyond the five senses and some have more of those abilities than other people um and uh so and so it can be taught and built up and developed but some people are more predisposed to certain kinds of stuff than other people are and so how would they train people to do something like this who like who was the first person to figure out that they could do it and then how do they train other people to do it uh joel mcmoneagle has a book um i think he authored it back in 1993 and he had i believe a near-death experience about 1970-ish 70 and um i mean there's there's a lot of literature out there on the shelves that people can buy they can they can get a hold of this stuff without having to talk to these fellows and these people. And the stories are amazing as to what they can do. So it's, and purportedly, distance is irrelevant.

I mean, you could do something thousands of miles away and that could be the target. And you can describe that target. It doesn't have to be on the surface. It can be a building. It can be inside a building. It can be inside a room. I mean, it just really gets strange.

And so you have actually experienced this and you are 100% on board with remote viewing. You think it's real. Well, I've experienced it to a wee extent. I hired a fellow to do it twice. But he did it. He did it. to do it twice. But he did it. He did it. That's not wee.

That's pretty big. The guy did it. He did it. And I sat once. I got to sit behind a screen on a computer to play around a little bit. So I don't have any real experience with this. I just have a lot of admiration for the people

who manage the programs and who can function that exercise. It's really amazing. There's an old story about Ingo Swann. He's passed over. How can I say that? He's passed over. You don't say he's passed.

He's passed over. Well, now you know where my thought is about things. I do know where he thought is about things but i just funny i'm gonna get to that too okay but the way you describe it he passed over oh there's a story i love about ingo he's being tested as always happens you're trying to verify verify verify right trust but verify verify always and like you're doing exactly what you should be doing is questioning always questioning it and um so he's being tested by officials and um they have a submarine that uh that is his target he doesn't know what his target is of course and um it might even have been a blind or double blind situation i don't know

but they go to a lot of effort so that maybe even the person that's with you doesn't know what the target is that's usually the kind of protocols so um and he identifies the sub he identifies the sub accurately and this is a a advanced sub that he's identifying so it's underwater it's you know it's deep and he's able to see this thing and describe it so it makes them pretty uneasy and they're impressed this is like wow this is a big deal this guy guy. So it's not like, just how is he doing this? It's like, he did this. So they're calling the meeting kind of to a close. He says, well, don't you want to know what's following it? Duh, right?

Then he starts describing this other craft that's following behind the sub. Wingo was an amazing guy. What was this other craft that's following behind the sub. Ingo was an amazing guy. What was the other craft? I guess it was some kind of UFO, something else that wasn't another sub, you know, of ours or Russians or anybody's. That's one of the speculations about unidentified flying objects is that they're not just flying that some of them actually exist underwater there's been many sightings of things that went into the ocean yeah oh yeah what do you think of that well i mean like you know supposedly didn't uh aren't there stories even about christopher columbus crew and so forth seeing things uh uh going back for centuries things

coming in and out of the water well that was part of the tic-tac the commander david fravers encounter that there was something below the surface of the water. Well, that was part of the Tic Tac, the Commander David Fravor's encounter, that there was something below the surface of the water that was creating a wake almost like rocks. Yeah, well, it was churning, right? It was churning. It was a very large thing, and that it went under as they approached,

and the Tic Tac craft faced them, and that they don't know to this day what that thing was that was under the surface but that's what led them to go and investigate in the first place and as they were going towards it that's when they realized that there's this thing like you know roughly the size of this room yeah well in that carrier group was a ship or two that was bristling with electronic equipment. And it's the first thing that sensed something out there. And that's when my understanding was, and I'm going back a long time now,

was that that's when they were launched to go check it out. Because what was out there shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was behaving, according to all the electronics on this ship that was part of the battle group. Right. You know, with the aircraft carrier, I think a couple of subs, it was a battle group. And so, and then they had eyes on the target now. Yes. Right. So they're able to see firsthand for themselves what's going on.

Yeah. to see firsthand for themselves what's going on. Yeah. And when they were speaking over the mic, they had found out that they had been encountering these things over the last couple of weeks. Because when Commander Fravor was inquiring, like, what the hell is this thing? The other end was saying, look,

we've been seeing these things over the last few weeks. No one knows what it is. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, what do you do about that? I think sometimes better left alone. If you know they're really behaving fantastically and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever, go have a sandwich. Forget about it.

Well, I don't think they have a choice. I mean, you can't catch it. It's literally jamming your radar. You have images of it. Right. And you know you're tracking it and they're moving in a way that is literally impossible with our technology right what do you do yeah you can't do anything what are you gonna go to war with it what are you gonna do you're gonna try and it's not like it's it's not like it's offensive it hasn't tried to attack you or do anything they've

done nothing yeah it's a very strange situation to be in to be you know the a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the scope of even imagination right of what's possible right yeah um you had uh you had encounters with bob lazar you you know bob and you you were around when bob lazar first uh now is this going to be all about the mylar balloon event what's the mylar balloon event oh you don't know that one no uh so we all jump in my car to go out to to the alien in area out there you know on the alien in is that uh out there yeah it's like a north of bar or something yes for a north of that area and so so bob lazar george knapp myself and i think gene huff who is bob's friend. We all go out there. Well, unbeknownst to me, Bob has a Mylar balloon, which really bounces their radar signature a lot for its size,

and a bottle of gas, helium. So we find our way back out in the desert out there. I'm thinking we're on a UFO watch, which is always fun. Sometimes the best thing is the food you take along, right? And you're out there under the stars, and it's nice, and you have a good time just watching. But there's a rustle of things going on here. And next thing I know, there's a balloon. This Mylar balloon's infl inflated and there's a slight

breeze and Bob lets it go and we're on the opposite side of the mountain range from supposedly s4 and he wants he wants to go that way thank god the wind was going in the opposite direction was traveling north instead of south and it went the wrong way you know so i'm thinking my life's just passed before my eyes why do you think your life passed before your eyes because if the balloon goes towards area s4 it's going to get picked up yeah they're going to go find out where it came from and whack and hut security is going to come get us and i'm going to spend the night in jail right so you know it all just unraveled real quick and was this before bob had gotten in trouble for bringing people to the observation point to watch? Because let's tell the story about Bob real quick.

Bob said he worked for Area S4 and he was hired to back engineer what they believe were alien crafts. Along the lines, he had this top secret clearance. And along the lines of all this happening, they're monitoring his phone calls. Turns out Bob's wife is having an affair bob doesn't know about this they remove him from the project because they believe he'll be emotionally unstable if he's so he's he's freaking out not knowing a that his wife is having an affair not knowing why he's pulled from this project doesn't totally understand so starts telling people about what he's doing and telling people listen i can take you to a place where once a week they do these tests. So he starts bringing people to this area. They see these objects flying in these spectacular ways

that we really can't do with any of our conventional aircrafts. And then Bob gets in trouble for that. Then Bob goes on the the george knapp show and starts explaining all these different things presumably for self-preservation because he the best way to probably protect your own life is to go public with this and explain everything that's happening and they could discredit you and make you look like a nut but if they kill you then you know then it leads credence to your story yeah it gives you a very huge hardship. So when do you fall into the story? Well, you've just given me an overload of information now

that I'm pretty much aware of. But I don't know exactly when. I don't think, as I recall it, everybody was pretty much at ease. And it wasn't part of... what year is this that this is all going on oh god um i don't know 91 so this is around that time this is around when was he on george knapp's show yeah somewhere in that time frame but i wasn't aware of a lot until much until i don't think at that time i was aware of him taking people out on you

know wednesday nights to go see something out there i kind of missed out on that or whatever and um i don't think this was anything like connected to that i think that that was before this yeah probably that was i think you're dealing with him out after you know he had met george and after he had told his story yeah because george is with you oh yeah with him after he had met George and after he had told his story. Yeah. Because George is with you. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So obviously they had already met. Oh, sure. So what was your initial, obviously you're a person that has a deep fascination with UFOs. I hear you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius, brilliant guy, Bob Lazar. And he's telling you this fucking banana story. He's out there back-engineering spacecrafts that came from another land that are using this element 115,

this stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even proven by particle collider until, what, 2013? Somewhere along that line? It was just theoretical up to that point. So he's telling you about all this stuff. What was your, what did you think? I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more.

And the more he talked, the more interesting it became. The more research that George did, things that he uncovered, it became more interesting. And so, as I said a while back, I think George was doing an interview with me, and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's, the truth of the majority of everything that Bob Bob has said I wouldn't bet against it could they be errors and omissions for different reasons yeah sure they could but um the the uh

I I I would tend to say Bob is is legitimate um and uh you know, there are certain aspects of things that are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could this happen and so forth. But I think if you take all of the collective information and the work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's awfully damn impressive. George is such an important part of it because he's a legitimate investigative journalist, and that was his career. And so he poured himself into this. Oh, yeah.

And exposed all the different aspects of this story that seem to indicate that he's telling the truth. Oh, yes. And that's what's crazy about it. And George is not any normal journalist. He is, like what he has like six p bodies yes he's fantastic so he's diving into this and the more he uncovers the more it seems like bob bobs our story is legitimate right right so i i think until you i like the philosophy of reserving judgment until you have a preponderance of evidence that really moves you one way or another. You don't have to have 100%.

I go by reasonable doubt. But what was it like for you to be this guy who's had this deep fascination with flying saucers? And here you are. Let me tell you my experience with Bob. Doing the podcast with Bob. I wanted one of two things i wanted to go oh this guy's full of shit or i wanted whoa this guy's it seems like he's not full of shit i think he's telling the truth i think this guy really did encounter these aircrafts

and really did work on these spaceships whatever they are that's what where i'm at right now my experience with him my experience with him my communication with him he didn't seem like he's full shit at all he's clearly a brilliant guy his story has not changed at all over the 30 plus years that he's been saying it it's a crazy story but when you are a person like yourself you saw saw me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject, the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth and maybe even left crafts behind. And maybe these crafts are in the possession of some secret government agencies that are

trying to observe them and back engineer them. What is it like to talk to this guy? Because this guy to this because this guy has seen the thing you're looking for this guy the all the you're you're searching and all of your wondering and staring out into the heavens and here's a guy that has actually touched it actually worked on it been inside one tried to figure out how they work can't do it doesn't understand it he's talking to these people everything's compartmentalized you got the metallurgist people that are working on the the what what kind of alloy this thing is made of you got him who's a part of the people that

are trying to understand the propulsion system and then you've got people that are giving you this information that like maybe they have uh been here forever maybe this is a part of an archaeological dig maybe they've been trying to study these things for decades with no advancement at all. Yeah. So we came across, or myself and a couple other people came across folks who could collaborate some of the things going on out there, such as silent craft actually lifting off at nighttime, not looking as though the control was very good, but actually lifting off, maneuvering like a real small trial kind of thing.

And that fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed to be. George has come up with collaboration, I think, from two or three other sources also, besides what Bob said, about certain aspects of things out there. It's just that Bob's story is so much more in-depth, so much more detailed,

like that book that he talked about years ago coming across. Amazing things. Tell people about the book? that Bob was allowed to look through, or he seized the opportunity to do it when he was in a room where the book was, but I think that was by design. And it was some kind of a holographic book that as you opened up the pages,

whatever the stories were became a hologram. That's my recollection of a conversation that's decades old now so um um you know if i got it wrong fire me it's it's uh you know it's you'll have to talk to bob about that would you or talk to george okay and uh because i remember something like that i mean that was like oh wow what what an amazing way to portray information in some kind of a book and actually have holographic images coming forth out of the, you know, I don't know. of that being repeated any place in terms of something else like that happening. And so much that happened to Bob, it was so unique. There was also some very strange summary of what they understand or what they believe to be true

about the origins of human beings and that they believe that what these visitations were about was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution and that these species from wherever had been coming here and doing genetic experience experiments with primates and created human beings which is the ultimate like who knows like wow that's fun to think about but we were talking about this last night like how bizarre humans are that out of all these things on earth we're the only ones with shoes out of all these things we're the only ones that have to wear clothes we're the only ones would jump into metal boxes with rubber tires and roll around these hard

surfaces that we created or fly in planes or send video through your phone to other people that are on the other side of the continent, we're weird. We're real weird. We're way weirder than anything else that exists. And if we are really a product of some sort of accelerated process like that, this is how they get the party started on these planets. like that this is how they get the party started on these planets.

They find semi-intelligent, curious animals that are using tools or using opposable thumbs, and they do some things to them. Yeah, there's a large variety of potential beginnings. More evidence for some than others, right? So that's always the trick. Have you considered that? Is this like a subject that you've deeply considered and thought about? Not really. Really?

I'm here. I don't want to look a gift horse in the face i'll take it for what it is you know really yeah i mean i think about it a lot i don't know i i think uh i need more more evidence uh to be more curious about i'm more concerned about other kinds of things that are now than where do the human species come from particularly i'm more driven by other kinds of things that could make a difference today going forward so getting back to the bob lazar thing when you first got to know him and you first were considering this story and how crazy it was what was it like to to meet a guy who at least by his own accounts had encountered this thing that you were seeking well bob's a likable guy he as you said he's very smart and so he's interesting to talk to right yeah and um and so that's more than just entertaining. To listen to his story is profound, right?

And so it gives you an awful lot to think about and to try to position as to how can you measure future information you might get against that story. How can you verify different kinds of things? against that story? How can you verify different kinds of things? And so I've heard a lot more silly things, I think, than what Bob was talking about. Didn't seem all that ridiculous. And then the more you get to talk to him, the more you get to know him,

and people like George, who's an investigative journalist, it gets more and more, wow. Yeah. If there's like one thing that I could know about on this earth involving human beings, I think that's the thing. There's a lot of things I'd like to know. Who killed Kennedy? I'd like to know. There's a lot of things I'd like to know. Who killed Kennedy? I'd like to know. There's a lot of things I'd like to know. But whether or not that's real, to be in that hangar and see that ship

and to go walk through it with him and to really understand that this is not from here, I think that would be the one. And have crashes been intentional? Yeah, that's a weird one to me. We were discussing that last night. The problem with that is there's also this discussion of alien bodies. If crashes have been intentional, what do you have, suicide bombers?

Just for our own edification? That seems silly. And that's really disheartening to think that someone could come here from another galaxy and still get tripped up by lightning yeah but maybe they're just anthropomorphic they're you know maybe they're right more robotic and uh maybe that's our future at some at what point does a species have to have a spirit or a soul i mean does it could a machine even if it's very advanced and can think better than we can think and calculate faster and and actually understands uh fear love uh passions right does it would it

ever evolve to having a soul or a spirit you know so I mean that's a really that's that's a good question yeah it's different kind of it's also a good question as to are those things imperative for life? Like when we think of ego, when we think of our mating instincts and all the various pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how many of them are impediments to growth and progress? I mean, what is growth and progress, right? Are we trying to achieve mastery of the elements and of life are we trying to keep peace are we trying to make things better but but stay human like what are we trying to do because when we talk about artificial life it's just artificial in terms of the fact that a another life form has created it but if they figure out a way to you've seen uh ex machina that movie no you haven't how dare you how dare you go out see

it right now hey i'm living in the desert well listen they have movies in the desert i've been in the desert it's a great movie fantastic movie one of my favorites ever and it is about this super genius guy who develops these artificially intelligent humanoids. And there's a lot of suspension of disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes place in a modern era that has robots that look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff. But it makes you wonder how far away are we from something like that, some super intelligent thing that we create ourselves, and then it can create other super intelligent things. I mean, are we 50 years? Are we 100 years?

When is that going to happen? And is that going to happen? Or are we going to become some sort of symbiotic creation? Are we going to merge with technology instead of create some sort of technological being? Are we going to become one? And that's one of the things that I've always been very curious about when it comes to these aliens, these iconic aliens that people experience. They always seem like what we will look like in the future. If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla, they're much more muscular than human beings. They're much stronger.

They're covered in hair. They have smaller heads. And then our heads are bigger. Our bodies are smaller. We're weaker and softer. And then if you continue to move forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate all like a lot of the problems that human beings experience whether it's because of war or crime or all these different things that that trip us up as a society and as a culture these things are all connected to the tribalism and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate. If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time and you get these genital-less aliens that have these enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore, they communicate with thoughts, and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore.

They communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need for physical strength anymore, so their bodies are these tiny childlike things, but they have godlike powers. Is that our future? So is there a prerequisite in all of that for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated? for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated. Is there the potential for

either inanimate objects or combination biological material android type of objects to have consciousness. And what is it to be human in the first place? Well, if you have bred out or artificially created something that is close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a human being that's very imperfect. A human being has all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections and capabilities that go from here to here.

And so that is what it's like to be a human being. We are very imperfect. And so we're in a class by ourselves. Now you introduce something else. Maybe our consciousness is unique to being a human being, and it's not possible to actually evolve consciousness in an artificial mechanism. So consciousness and thought are two different kinds of things, like mind and brain are two different kinds of things. So consciousness, to me, is a force. Like we just saw, whether you think it's real or not,

but there are many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness, attention, as a force upon something. To either gather information you shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing or moving an object you know it has it's a different kind of force thought is a creative mechanism so um and thought can come to promoting the force to morning you know in other words to channel the conscious effort i'm don't mean to be getting off the topic but i think no i don't think it's off the topic at all okay so um so then it comes down to even if this were even if you did create those kinds of advanced beings, whatever, why did you do it? Why? You know, is perfection that important?

I mean, does everything have to be perfect? Or isn't there some beauty in having some imperfections? Well, here's the question. All of the human elements that we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to procreate sexually or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior, tribalism, all the awful and great things about human beings, ego. All those things lead people to want to do things, to get recognized, to get attention. And they also want to get recognized for their achievements. And they also want to push things past the boundaries that have been established by other people that are in the same business or the same creative venture as them, whether it's artificial intelligence, or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything that people do they're always piggybacking on the work of

the people that came before them it's part of being a person with everything with architecture with technology everything is piggybacking on the work before it and these things are motivated by these very imperfect aspects of being a person, by ego, by the desire to be loved, by all these, and even by the positive things, by curiosity, by creativity. All these, this soup of influences are all making people advance technology and innovate. That, if you just extrapolate, if you just look at what technology is, and if you look at what we're doing, if you were from another planet and you had no idea about human culture, you had no idea and you had no familiarity to the human form and to what our life is like down here and you looked at us

you would say well what is this species doing what are they doing well i'll tell you what they're doing they're making stuff and they're making better stuff every year that's what the species does what is what do bees do they make beehives they make honey but they do the same shit every year human beings don't they need a new goddamn phone every year the tvs get bigger the cars get faster everything they do is better The computers have more terabytes of hard drive. Their processors work quicker. The video cards are better. Everything's better. No one's settling for less good. Everybody wants better, and they want better constantly. And they want to show their friends. It's part of being attractive.

Look at Johnny. He's got the new car. He's got the new phone. She's got the new watch. You've got the new Oculus Rift headsets. You got this and that. We make technology. It's our primary thing. We work, we get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate income and revenue, and we're all obsessed with making or buying better stuff. That's what we do. Now, what does that mean, ultimately? Well, it means technology. Technology is the pinnacle of human achievement.

It's the stuff that puts us into space. It's the stuff that allows us to videotape things. It's stuff that allows us to essentially capture time. You can capture time on a phone and play it back to people. This is when I showed Jeremy this thing. We both laughed. Ha, ha, ha. Look, you can laugh, too. You can capture time on a phone and play it back to people. This is when I showed Jeremy this thing. We both laughed. Ha ha ha. Look, you can laugh too. You could laugh at our memory. That's what it's doing. Well, we're going to get better at that. It's going to keep getting better and better and better. Well, where does that lead to? It leads to some sort of singularity. It leads

to some sort of paradigm shifting invention where all of these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort of pinnacle of human achievement. And I think that's probably going to be some kind of artificial life or some sort of a symbiotic relationship with technology

where literally instead of carrying around like a phone, like a baby that you don't want to leave behind, it's going to be in your body. I don't think it's enough, and I don't think it's altogether better. I don't think it's altogether better either, but I think it's going that way.

I think you've got half the coin. Half the coin. Yeah. You're missing the other side. What's the other side? Okay. So you've built this societal empire of technological achievements, right? That's what we have right now, right?

Well, and who knows in 50 years or 150 years, whatever. Okay. I think you've just described an infrastructure for a serious problem coming. Yeah. What if you were to create a graph, and on the graph were just two things, two lines, and you were tracking over the last 150 years spiritual maturity among the species? spiritual maturity among the species. 20th century was the worst annihilation of people, 60 million people ever, in terms of numbers.

Wars, right? What if you were to track in that same graph the progress of technology? Well, you'd have one vertical line, the technological line, in the 20th century and now, and it would probably be segmented, which I mean is jumping. It's going faster than arithmetic progression or any normal progression. It's jumping. So it might be at a 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 situation. Now you look at the spirituality line.

It's practically flatlined. So what's the consequences of that eventually? What do you mean by the spirituality? I think a species needs to have grounding spiritually. I think a species have to have an essence of spirituality. Something that in their being, to their bones, says it makes a difference what you do. It makes a difference how you behave for your overall good and the good of others, and it makes a difference.

So an intelligent species like us, not just all species. Correct. Sure, us. The most intelligent. Yes. Right. So if you don't have a grounding, though, in a solid spiritual philosophy in a species like us, like humans, then you're rolling the dice on handing a species that might be immature spiritually some very advanced, dangerous stuff that can be used as weaponry or just a misused and abused in other kinds of ways um and then maybe the species thinks it knows it all and it's cavalier

it's careless about the way that the disposition of the technologies but more than likely it's hostile because things are tend to be weaponized so you wind up with a species that's more like the klingons than you want right so so you wouldn't want to be on some other planet and having these discover you right uh so i think those those two lines are really important to try to harmonize the problem is there's no intersection in sight. In our lifetimes and other lifetimes, there's no intersections in sight. We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation of technologies. So that incongruity can be a really serious problem someday, maybe. Yeah, for sure.

can be a really serious problem someday, maybe. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if we continue to concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not improving the way we communicate with each other and love each other. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

So what's the solution? Wow. I mean, that's the big, you know, that's the $64,000 question that they used to say. Yeah. A little television program. Yeah, I mean, that's what $64,000 question that they used to say. Yeah. A little television program. Yeah. I mean, that's what is a solution, you know.

But who ponders that? Who ever ponders this? Only people with a lot of free time. Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah. Some monks on the mountainside somewhere. Some Buddhists someplace. That's the problem with the way we live our lives.

We're very, very busy with things that aren't exactly spiritually satisfying, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a tremendous amount of noise for attention. And so when do you get the time to just to think? Right. When do you? Who, me? Yeah, when do you?

I'm too busy running in circles. But I know you think about these things, and I know you've thought a lot about consciousness, and this is one of the things that you've studied. One of the things you're involved in is the concept of whether or not consciousness extends beyond death. Right, yeah.

And what do you think? I a it's a really important subject um so we have two holy grails right and the second holy grail is are we alone as you've said and then everybody kind of has attracted that question. The other is, do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death? So is there a difference between mind and brain? So is brain the generator and mind is a reservoir and actually more causal

than the brain is, in a sense. So in theory, the question relates to, gosh, you are doing away than the brain is, in a sense. So in theory, the question relates to, gosh, you are doing away with the brain. If the container decomposes and dies and is permanently offline, are there any aspects of your mind that continues? Does your consciousness continue? That is a question that has been attempted to answer since maybe the dawn of man. A loved one has just died.

Is there any way to recapture that? Any way at all? Well, no. It's written off. It's gone. And that is just as relevant a question today as ever because you have a lot of disparate kinds of folks' beliefs. And you have religions that are against that notion altogether. And so you have a huge amount of differences in people's philosophy and driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived at their own

conclusions or whatever. So you have to be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and try to yet approach that subject in a way that is somehow determinable. in a way that is somehow determinable. Try to arrive at something that maybe is not 100%, but can you find answers in different ways that drive you into the high levels, 80, 85, 90, 95%, that you're leaning towards that? That would be really good news if you could legitimately do that and for yourself and you

know and know that you have something else in addition to this well that's always been what religions have strived for right to show people that there's something more than this life oh yeah there's something it's their waiting. Yeah. For the majority of religions. It's their backyard. And there's all kinds of promises about what our backyard contains if you're a follower of our religion. Yeah. And the cynical people would always say, well, they're just trying to promise you that to get you to behave in this life. But there's really no evidence whatsoever that anything happens once you die. But then you have people that have had near-death experiences and those are the weird ones because they've had these near-death experiences and they almost always come back saying it's going to be

okay they almost always come back going there's something more to this right and and we don't know what those near-death experiences are we uh we know that certain aspects of them can be recreated with psychedelic drugs and we do know that the brain produces psychedelic drugs you know particularly DMT and people that have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments these like Larry Haggard the guy from Dallas the member that uh oh yeah he famously was on CNN once, and I watched this interview where he was talking about how he had a high-dose LSD experience once. He never worried about death ever again.

And he was talking about it, and the CNN anchor was clearly a little rattled because I believe what they were talking about was his green home. He had this home that operated off the grid and he had it all set up so it was really well insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that he could not have a heavy carbon footprint. So they're talking about this

and along the line they get to talking about his LSD experience and death. And it was pretty trippy to see him say that and to see them going, oh. But many people that have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.

They've gone to this other place that seems more real. From my own personal experiences, I've had these. Where you go to these realms that seem more real than the realm that you're living in and you encounter something whether the this something is an imaginary or whether it's it's actually you could put it on a scale and measure it i'm not sure if it matters because it's still a thing you experience did you have after these experiences did you have any kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection between what you saw in the visions and actually now what you discovered i mean was there anything that that popped up later on that connected the

two no no there's no evidence there's uh even the memory is shaky like your memories are shaky just like the memories of a dream are shaky um but when it happens and i've done it a bunch of times every time it happens you're like oh yeah i remember this because it's so intense each time that you do it is it more more vivid? No, it's always vivid. You can't get more vivid. It doesn't get any more vivid. It's way more vivid than life. What do you learn as you've been doing this multiple times?

What's the lessons learned? Abandonment of the ego is a big one. That's the big one. Your ego and your desire to protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to the way you communicate with other people, and that it's a battle, a constant battle, to abandon these monkey instincts that we all have,

and that these things have protected us and gotten us to this stage, but they can ultimately trip you up as you try to sort of understand yourself better. You're just hitting on something in the literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or thousands of books that you could actually access and people to talk to. The message seems to be in the literature, the message seems to be in the literature, abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do. It's a very important thing. As you've passed over, that's one of the things that happens,

is try to remove the ego and shove it aside. Yeah, yeah. That's, it seems to be, that's an impediment to learning in a lot of different ways. It's an impediment to learning art. It's an impediment to learning, because you think you're better than you are if you let your ego lie to you. Oh, sure. And same with technical skills, physical skills. You can lie to yourself. And a lot of that is the ego.

But the ego is also what keeps you alive. It's the thing that makes you want to be successful. It's the thing that makes you want to be successful. It's the thing that makes you want to progress. It's the thing that makes you want to accomplish things. is to progress, move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks, is that there's something interesting in it. And especially if you're doing something that benefits other people. When it benefits other people that you get better at these things because these other people get to enjoy these things on a higher level,

then you get this cool feeling of actually benefiting people actually helping people with your your fascination with these things right so and the more you concentrate on the ego the more you're gonna you'll it'll taint whatever progress you're making you know taint whatever thing you're creating so back to the near-death experiences so let's suppose that you just look at the ones that come along naturally you know somebody has flatlined on an operating table they've fallen through the ice yeah uh whatever okay so um there are so many near-death experiencers. I mean, I've heard numbers that are ridiculous in the millions of people in this country, not just in the world. And so there's a hell of a lot of smoke. There must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms of the probability that this is real.

Because other explanations are really tough. Now, you can have out-of-body experiences, and you can validate conversations in a room. You should have no way of understanding where tools were taken, from what drawers, or anything like that, what people look like, and the other guy. Because you're gone. You're under anesthesia. Right? There's no way. And yet, the literature is replete with stories, thousands of stories. like and the other guy because you're gone you're under anesthesia right there's no weight and yet

the literature is replete with stories thousands of stories like that and same thing with near death stories you know huge volume of information every example you can possibly imagine and um and And so then you wonder, well, how can you correlate that? How can you correlate anything to do with did the person have an experience, not just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards in that period of time after they exited the tunnel into wherever they were? And how do we verify that what they actually saw was the other side? Not only that, you have different human beings with a different understanding of language. So they have limited vocabulary or limited ability to describe things or limited ability to express themselves.

And maybe they're not so good at relaying what it was. And does it fit with their religions rights and their philosophy right you know right yeah and how much of it do you distort when you get back to make yourself feel better how much of it do you know how much do you actually share with people I mean remember you were you were talking about your childhood experience you didn't want to share with your wife like when people have a near-death experience maybe it may be some of it's like unpleasant yeah I didn't want to share with your wife like when people have a near-death experience maybe maybe some of it's like unpleasant you know i didn't want to share

with her i mean she might have said hey go sleep in the other room hey crazy you know yeah i don't want you around me you know so yeah why take the chance well people people have a real fear of being ridiculed you know um and to be ridiculed for a near-death experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a ufo encounter or ridiculed for any other super spectacular thing that most people are never going to experience. Right, right. Yeah. So when you have talked about this, the ability to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life, Exist outside of life When they're

How can that be measured And what steps can be made To try to quantify And to try to Validate whether or not This is a real thing You don't want to hear this I do want to hear this

How can you say I don't want to hear this Well I don't know I'm just guessing I'm sitting here with a reptilian brainstem trying to keep up. All right. So how do you verify a near-death experience? It might be that there's some kind of messaging that can happen from whoever greeted you temporarily on the other side because you are coming back. And maybe that message can be verified in some way. Maybe it's something that doesn't make sense to you.

Okay. So you do come back. You snap back into this reality. You're alive. And sure enough, what was conveyed to you from the other side actually happens and it wasn't something that was expected it was

profound in some way and so that might be a way of verifying through this message that you had no way of knowing or predicting that this was going to happen there's also the subject of psychic mediums alright

I can see stone face right now you're not buying it I didn't say anything I always give stone face I give stone face when people talk but yeah most psychic mediums I think are full of shit yeah I know

doesn't mean they're all well okay But yeah, most psychic mediums I think are full of shit. Yeah, I know. It doesn't mean they're all. Well, okay. No, say that again. It doesn't mean they're all full of shit. Okay. Okay. Good.

All right. All right. All right. Yeah. And some are a whole lot better than others. Yes. Look, it's like everything else. There's con artists out there. Yes.

And then there's people that are genuine yes genuinely unique yes yeah absolutely yeah world-class performers yeah yeah and so so of course you can't help yourself but try to get information that falls in the categories that they should have no way of knowing in fact you might not even know the information yourself at that moment in time. You'll say no. Or it's only later after you've listened to the recording or whatever that, oh my gosh, they were right in this and this and that. So that is a very important source of information, assuming you're talking to ones that have been legitimatized, right?

And they've been bona fide. Do you know any? I know a very good one. You know a really good psychic medium. Can I meet that person? I don't see why not. I mean, it's up to them too, right? Yeah.

But I think that would be uh yeah i i would i'll ask what does this person do professionally are they a psychic medium professionally so they make money doing it um this person um isn't motivated by, as far as my understanding is, by just doing these things as a business. This person will do things, will do readings pro bono without a fee, without charging. That's promising. Uh-huh.

And that helps. That helps believe you. Or helps you believe them, rather. They have a family. You know, the person has a family and so on. It's always a woman. Why is it always a woman that's really good at it? What did I do?

Is it a woman? Do you hear that? What did I say? Is it a woman? Actually, yes. Well, it is interesting why psychic mediums tend to be women. I think because women have to be worried about men because men are fucking crazy. And, you know, men are more violent and women are probably more intuitive because they got to pay more attention to these assholes.

Oh, you know, pound for pound, they're the best astronaut there is. Women? Of course. Yeah? Of course. You get all that brain power in a package that doesn't weigh as much. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah.

You're launching less weight. So there you go. Right. Okay. But all kidding aside, yeah, psychic mediums are a really good legitimate source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things maybe that have happened other ways or information has come maybe from a near-death experience or, you know, for example. But when you're talking about measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body. Right. So you've heard of automatic writing.

Yes. I don't mean that means that. Can you explain it to people? It has nothing to do with your wife automatically going into your checkbook. It's got nothing to do with that. Do people write checks anymore? That's automatic writing. Oh, okay. They don't do that anymore.

I'm old-fashioned. They bank online. I write a check. I understand. I write a check. But explain automatic writing to people. All right. So apparently it's something that has occurred for many, many years,

occurred for many, many years, especially back when the study of spiritualism and the whole investigations of psychics was very, very strong from about 1835 or 40 to 1930-ish. And then it has continued in some ways up until recent times. So you have somebody who is writing, and they are being controlled by a spirit. Okay? Or they're in a trance. Or Or they're in a trance. Or maybe they're in a trance. Yeah.

But they could be lucid. It doesn't have to be in a non-lucid trance. They could be lucid in their writing, or they could be in a trance. And maybe they're not writing in the vernacular and language that they're used to. Maybe they have a six- seven year education um and they're writing very sophisticated information have you experienced this no no um i don't i'm a i'm a

explorer and a researcher investigator a student but um so um i'm trying to gather information through other ways and uh i've had personal experiences but i'm not nothing of automatic writing so anyway uh again the literature is huge huge on this subject of automatic writing. And it's easy to dismiss because it just seems very strange. You're being possessed. You're actually being controlled. But has anybody ever verified any of this automatic writing stuff? In the literature, yeah. You have a lot of information that the writer isn't aware of, shouldn't be, doesn't know.

It's outside of their world. So there has been different kinds of cross-correspondence and other kinds of ways of verifying that this didn't come from this person. Something else is going on here. It didn't come all from this person. It's not right. It's completely illogical. So that's one means of adding something to the menu. But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness exists outside of life,

just because someone's automatically writing, they could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive. If there is some sort of psychic communication, if there is a possibility of remote viewing, and you can transmit information from person to person without words, and this is one of the ultimate goals of Neuralink. Elon Musk actually said you're going to be able to talk without using words. I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do something along those lines, this could be a live person that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else is tuning into them in the same way you would tune into a radio signal. Okay, so the way you would test that is probably it's going to be what's the nature of the entire subject matter?

How extensive is this subject matter? Because at some point you're adding on so much weight and so many different variables that it stretches the credibility of that theory working. It's kind of like using ball lightning as an excuse for all kinds of things. When it has a very short life, usually travels in one direction, and it's very, very, very rare. So everybody uses Occam's razor as this is what you do.

You want to go to what is the simplest solution instead of trying to find swamp gas to describe the craft that just landed. So, you know, I would, that's probably testable. You could probably create the methodologies to do some laboratory-type tests on that. But my guess is that would fail as a solution. But you see, we're talking right now in these weird terms because I don't know if that stuff's real. I could describe what i think would be wrong with these scenarios but i don't know if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has been verified you do through the literature the literature what does that mean though well it's through literature people are full of shit they write things down

that aren't true it just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves to verify it ourselves and actually watching, implementing it under controlled conditions, double-blind conditions. Right. So what else do you have to resort to? It's what's in the literature thoroughly digested and pros and cons and everything from a lot of sources and people who have engaged in this. And maybe they have film. Maybe they actually have film of the writing. And you compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether.

Maybe it's in a different language completely. In fact, there are stories, a lot of accounts of exactly that. But this subject of consciousness and whether or not consciousness exists beyond life, this is something that's important to you. So I would assume that you've looked into it further than just this idea of automatic writing being the only piece of evidence actually that area is the least i've looked into automatic what's the most what's the area the most you've looked into um well now first of all i have

kind of recaptured this this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into in the 1980s. And I have now formed an institute called BICS that started in June of last year. What does BICS stand for? Bigelow Institution for Survival of Consciousness. And for conscious survival Bigelow Institute for Survival of Consciousness

and this organization is very new and so we're in a method of trying to stimulate research and investigate and catch up on the literature and we have a unique situation where I have people around us that have ongoing things happening. Ongoing things?

Yeah. What does that mean? Different kinds of events that are being reported by family, staff, friends. Like? Apparitions. Ghosts? Yeah. You believe in ghosts?

I have. It's fun. My experience is, well, there's a difference. Fun to believe in ghosts. Yeah. Well, there's a difference in terms of what causes you to believe in something the most. Personal experiences? Probably.

So my personal experiences are not having ever seen an apparition. My wife did. I have had poltergeist, a very demonstrative poltergeist event. What was that? Decades ago. What happened? Probably, I don't know, 25 years ago or more 11 o'clock at night my wife and i are laying in bed halloween eve this is appropriate halloween eve okay um hardwood floors downstairs in the entrance hall on which tables are all set up with lots and lots of candies, bags, because bags were being given out. Large, very large candy bars and bags and bags of everything piled up.

Hundreds of kids having to be taken care of. Halloween, big deal. Big deal. Ghosts in the trees. And this is a family thing that was a big deal every year. Decorations. Oh, yeah, yeah. The whole nine yards.

The full Monty. Got it. All right. So we're laying there, and there's this crash, bang, boom, crash, crash, crash, like a thousand malt balls just dropped to the hardwood floor. Made all this noise. The sound, I estimated, seemed to last forever, probably about three and a half, four seconds,

which is a long time for noise to continue. And I said, oh, geez. Stay here. I'll go take care of it. Whatever. I'll get it all. I'll go take care of it, the mess. So I go downstairs.

Nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong. She doesn't believe me. She comes downstairs. And she says, oh, my God. I said, yeah. I don't have to do anything. Everything's perfect.

I didn't touch it. It's just like we set it up. So that was a really interesting event. And poltergeist, a lot of times. So it's just a sound that you heard. Yeah, just a sound. A sound like something crashed like all everything on all those tables piled all up had all crashed to the floor

and bags broken open yes but nothing did nothing you had children at the time uh i had uh teenagers and they were gone they were out of the house they were gone you sure they weren't fucking with you the teenagers no yeah but well what would they have to do have a recording noise yeah they would have to crash all this and record it wouldn't they it's not more likely to spend hundreds of dollars doing this and well that's how much we always spent on recordings no on the candy i mean i mean just sounds it sounded like mothballs you said right or like uh malt balls hitting the floor, right? Is that what you said it sounded like?

Yeah, jawbreakers, whatever. Candies, hard things. Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Whatever. But that was it? Just a sound? That's a lot. But it's not necessarily a ghost.

When nothing has happened, well, no, we're talking about a poltergeist. Now, poltergeists don't have to be anything manifested as a ghost. It can be an audible sound. But was there anything more to the experience than just a loud sound that turned out to be nothing? No, that was pretty good. That's not enough. For a starter, that's pretty good. I was probably like, okay, what's going to happen tomorrow night?

Did something happen tomorrow night? No. That was it? Just one loud noise and that's it? To me, it was probably like, okay, what's going to happen tomorrow night? Did something happen tomorrow night? No. That was it? Just one loud noise and that's it? To me, it was a big deal. You know, it was like, wow. Imagine if that was that whole movie, Poltergeist, just a loud noise. Well, wouldn't that be that entertaining?

Wouldn't be a good movie. No, you have to have chandeliers swinging and crashing and all that kind of stuff. That's what I was expecting. I wasn't expecting just like candy hit the floor, but no candy actually hit the floor. Well, I never said that my life was that exciting. You know, it hasn't been that great. But I want to get to this idea that you're trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure out whether or not consciousness survives death.

Right. Like what do you want to do and how do you want to do it? You can't just do it through remote writing or automatic writing or psychic mediums or there's got to be a way to figure this out yeah so we started the institute and i said okay let's stir the pot up and uh in fact we thought we would join an organization, and they didn't want us. So we got rejected. So we got rejected and then crawled off and conjured up a contest. So the contest says, you have to have some credentials to enter this contest. What kind of credentials do you have to have as a psychic?

You have to have, no, no, no, no. Okay. You have to have background in the topic of, and you could be a priest, a minister, a rabbi. You have to have background in the topic of studying and understanding does, potentially, does the other side even exist we're not asking you to tell us what it's all about okay just does it friggin exist right so you might be a producer or director of a television show for years and you've got more stuff on film

than you can imagine of different kinds of weird things happening that you have no explanation for any of that. And you've made a study of this for a long time. You could be a good candidate. You could be a detective. And maybe you're solving murder cases by using psychic mediums. So you'd have to have something to bring to the table. So you have to have something to bring to the table.

And you can't send us an essay. You're going to write an essay to present your case. And it can't be more than 25,000 words, which is about 50 pages. So you're just essentially going to allow people to come up with some convincing argument and bring it to you. So you have a contest to do this. Is that what it is? Yeah, that's what it is. So we say, okay, there's a deadline to get all your applications in. And then you have many months. Deadline is actually the end of this month, the 20th of February. And then you have –

Jamie's got it up here. BICS essay competition, best evidence for afterlife. Essays will be judged by five renowned experts. That's up to six now. Oh. We have another judge, which is a good thing because... The winning essay gets a half a milli. Is that too much?

No, it's perfect. Okay. It's good. Second place gets $300,000. Third place gets $150,000. So if you have a semi-shitty near-death experience story, you get $150,000. If you have a semi-shitty near-death experience story, you get 150. It's an interesting way to do it, but I would hope there would be some better way to measure.

You know the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Yeah, true. evidence yeah true but um you got to remember that well first of all we're causing conversation and and thought about the subject right and we're stirring the pot and this kind of contest has never been done before and what if they're all terrible do you still give first place to someone who's terrible worse than that what if there are only three applicants? Right. Even worse. First, second, third place. They all suck.

Yeah. Well, the good news is we have some really good people. Jamie's thinking about writing one right now. We have some very good people who are entering this contest. Their credentials are terrific. They're very good. They're authors of many books. There's extensive background of these kinds of folks.

So we're excited about that. The response has been favorable. Well, there's a lot of money on the table they haven't until august the first to do this oh okay and then the judges now so here we are what is it the 24th what is it 24th of february yeah all right okay so then the judges start and we just added a physicist to this group he's's the sixth one. And so he understands judging things and being a critical thinker. And so he really rounds out the group very well. And so the judges start August 1st, August, September, October, and they're supposed to be finished by November 1st and have made decisions. So then we announce the winners.

And we want to post all the three winners. And I suspect the judges are going to have a problem. It's going to be damn hard to pick three out of the group. Because we have that kind of that we have. This has been generated a lot of interest. And we have some really good folks into this. So we are going to get permissions as an applicant. They have to give us permission.

We don't own anything. We just want to put it on our website so people can read all the essays. So maybe we have 20, 25 essays, not just the three winners. So it's going to give people a chance to really read a lot of different kinds of arguments. By what metrics are you going to accept evidence of the afterlife? Good question. Okay. So we patterned this after the legal system of the Western world. And the Western world says two things. That you can convict providing you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't say 100%.

It says beyond a reasonable doubt. Number two, witnesses really matter. The veracity and the quality of the witnesses matter. And how many did you have to something? You know, what is it that is being claimed here? You know, and what is the cross-correlation, collaboration in whatever it is that you're trying to relate here? So when you're talking about convicting someone for a crime, here's the problem with that analogy. Crimes are real.

Like if you're talking about convicting someone for a murder, the murder's real. The person's dead and you want to catch someone. So you have eyewitness encounters, you have evidence, you have all these things, and you can convict someone on that evidence. There's no evidence that ghosts are real. There's no evidence that the afterlife is real.

So you're guessing. Wrong. How's it wrong? Wrong. But murders are real, right? You would say murders are way no evidence that the afterlife is real. So you're guessing. Wrong. How's it wrong? Wrong. But murders are real, right? You would say murders are way more real than the afterlife? What you said is wrong in this context. In what way? An applicant.

An applicant. Who's a detective? Who's been using? Dick Tracy? Psychic? No. What? In fact, I got my watch right here. I'll talk to that watch. That turned out to be real, right? Remember when we were kids?

It is. Dick Tracy used to talk to his watch. We were like, that's crazy. The time didn't fast forward two hours. I come from a Pacific time. Oh, it didn't? No. That's weird.

No. And so I haven't been using my cell phone, and I forgot to bring my charger. You're on some shitty service? Mine changes everywhere I go. I don't know. Doesn't yours? i'm going to talk to my granddaughter because she gave it to me but you understand what i'm saying though because we actually talked about this wait a minute though this guy's a detective oh solving murder cases right using mediums right isn't this like wow yeah but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if that has ever been real, and I've talked to some detectives that say that's all horseshit,

because I did have a long discussion with someone who is an investigative detective, and he solves crimes, and he's like, there's no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any real information. Now, he hasn't investigated the subject. He has had probably one experience, maybe two. This is his personal opinion on cases that he's been involved in, and maybe he's wrong, but this is just what he said. He said people are desperate. They hire psychics. But my point is, murder is real. The difference is you're convicting someone for something that absolutely happened. When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence that would be used to convict someone of a murder, that doesn't necessarily work.

Because we know for a fact that murder is real. We know for a fact that human beings are real and that if you kill them, you're a murderer. This is all fact. We don't know whether or not there's an afterlife so to use the same obligation or the same preponderance of evidence that would convict someone of a crime for something that you don't even know is real so they don't necessarily it's you can't they're not comparable no wait no i wouldn't say don't put the seriousness of an event in terms of the harm it caused as not being as being more legitimate than an event that actually produces information that you should have no way of acquiring well let's not say then. Let's talk about it in terms of something different than a murder.

Let's talk about it in terms of vandalism. Just someone spray painting some building somewhere, right? Let's talk about that. No one gets hurt. Just physical stuff and someone spray painting a building. So let's take that example. And suppose you went to a psychic medium and she says, what I'm hearing is that your house is going to get spray painted

with a message on it on the back side of your house i'd go to that lady she probably fucking did it she knew it was coming impossible she knew it was kind of impossible no i'm possible i'm very possible but this is all nonsense but no well wait a minute don't wait a minute though okay so there is a predictability in events however only if someone actually can prove that they've done that. No one's ever done that. No one's ever said someone's going to spray paint your building and it wasn't them that did it. How do you know? How do you know?

Prove it. Prove it. Show it to me. Do you see what I'm saying? Like people have definitely spray painted people's buildings. I do. Right? No one has definitely showed you that there's real evidence that consciousness survives death

and you can talk to someone from beyond the grave there have been a mountain of of really readings for sitters who which where the information comes it's that says something is going to happen and it happens it's prognostication that's a day or two or a week away and it happens maybe maybe no no it is you just have to you got to show me specifics and we're going to have this conversation you see what i'm saying like for you to be so convinced you should have things you could pull out of the top of your head right now and tell me specifically that this event was predicted by this person and this is how it happened and there was no way they could have known about it otherwise otherwise you shouldn't

be convinced are in the tens of thousands but that doesn't mean anything when they're written down after the fact that doesn't mean jack shit but they're actual accounts of things you have to say well the authors the authors are all fraud maybe the authors are all fraud their sources are fraud the problem is you want to believe that's the problem so what you maybe it's true maybe it's true i got the solution you don't but here's the thing i got robert i love you you don't know i got the solution what's the solution solution is for you to have a sitting for christ's sake maybe that is not even good enough wait a minute earlier it was no never was never good enough it was

interesting interesting to have a sitting you could have both chocolate and vanilla ice cream and you wouldn't be happy no no no no no no. Look, there is no proof ever that someone has been able to accurately perform some sort of psychic demonstration. That's the whole James Randi thing. You need a sitting badly. I don't need a sitting, man. Yes, you do. That may or may not be founded. But the problem is you don't have any evidence. You're not saying. You're not saying specific. Like I can tell you specific things that I know are true. And I'll talk to you about them because I was there or I know about them.

I can talk to you about martial arts events. I can talk to you about stand-up comedy events. I know things that absolutely did happen. Right. And therefore, if you argued with me and said there has never been a ufc fight i go well that's not true because i could tell you specific dates i can tell you what happened what the result was i can show you a videotape of it you don't have that same knowledge of these things but you have the same conviction that i have when i'm talking about things that are hardcore facts like a mixed martial arts event or uh you know whatever fill in the blank with whatever the

event you want it to be. You have the same sort of conviction that these things are real, but you don't have the same kind of hardcore evidence. Not only do you not have the same kind of hardcore evidence, well, give me an example. Give me an example. So an example is any kind of information coming from the other side that maybe you don't even know about. Okay? So it can't be explained away as telepathy or clairvoyance.

Okay. Because you don't even know about it yourself. Give me an example of that. Well, pick anything. That something's going to happen. No, no, no, no. Or that something did happen. Give me an example of someone actually doing this.

Okay. So that Aunt Martha just died. Who the fuck is Aunt Martha? Is this a real person? Well, you said give me an example. No, no, no. I want an example of a real psychic prediction that turned out to be true that you can tell me.

I can fill this table up with examples, with literature. I just want one. You don't have to do that. Just give me one that you know about. Listen, like I'm saying, I have the same conviction in one that you know about that. I listen. Okay. I'm saying I have the same conviction in Things that I know are real as you have when you're arguing that psychic ability is real I just want you to tell me one. Okay my own sitting

Okay, my own city, okay My father came across in the sitting and My father was killed in a private plane crash when i was 18 and it wasn't his plane it was his partner's plane and so she tells this to me and um i hadn't thought about uh anything to do with his partner for decades. How long ago was this sitting? How long ago? How long ago did you have this sitting? A few days ago.

You're a famous public person, and your history is available. Someone could find this out about you. That's maybe true about the plane crash, but not the first name of the pilot. Not the first name of your father's partner? Why couldn't someone find that out? Yeah. Why couldn't someone find out the pilot? I think because this is over a half a century old.

I think it's like 60, I'm 76. Right, but there was probably a record. I think that's stretching it. I don't think that's stretching it at all. You were telling me about UFO encounters from 1947. You were telling me about people that have seen things. You were telling me about events that happened that are in the historical record. Okay.

So let's shift to something else that could not have been written down. Okay. Okay. So in my own down. Okay. Okay. So in my own my own setting. Okay. So my wife passed February 19th that last year and she was in and out of hospitals a lot for a long time. I was kind of the nurse at home for a couple years. And so toward the end, she was in the hospital about three days before. She wanted to pass at home. So the challenge was how to get her out of an area in the hospital that was basically a waiting area for people to go to die. It was an area that that's where people were that weren't expected to leave. Okay, alive. And so there was a day there where my son and my granddaughter

and I were playing a lot of loud music in the in the room for my wife. And the medium said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said, thank you, your wife wants to thank you for all the music that was played for her before she passed, all the music. I said, well, I don't know about any music. I don't remember anything. And why did you say that? Because I didn't remember. You don't know about any music. I don't remember anything. Why did you say that? Because I didn't. You didn't remember playing loud music? No, I didn't remember. But you remember it now.

What is she talking about? How do you remember it now? Because of my granddaughter. Because I had recorded it, and we listened to the recording together after I had done the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, Pop, don't you remember? Oh, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I don't you remember oh god that's right yeah well yeah i forgot i completely forgot it well that's certainly interesting and unusual

so what i would i don't know if she would do it but i think she probably would be a very interested sense it's you and because you are a big figure um that uh and you're easy to learn about you'd go into this assuming which she's very very honest person but you would have to go in this assuming that you're everything about you is so public uh you can find out a lot of things so that's the problem that i always have with psychics yeah don't tell me something that i already know challenge for her is to tell you tell you something that nobody else could possibly know but even that well nobody else could possibly know is a stretch right but tell me something that i don't know when whenever i've had friends that have gone had psychic readings i always well, how did they structure the questions? How did this go?

How did this go? What did they say? Were they fishing around? Did they accurately get to it or did they give you probing questions first? It's almost always probing questions. And they told me about my grandfather. How could they know? I go, you know. You know about your grandfather. Why don't they tell you some shit you don't know? Everybody tells you things you already know. Tell me. Why don't they tell you some shit you don't know? Everybody tells you things you already know. Tell me something I don't know. So that'll be the challenge for her, wouldn't it? Is to be able to tell you, to tell Joe Rogan, things that essentially only Joe knows.

No, don't tell me things I know. Okay. Tell me things I don't know. Tell you things. Tell me reality that I'm not aware of that has nothing to do with me. Or that may happen soon. Well, something along those lines. Yeah, something where, you know, don't say you're going to spray paint my house and then go do it.

But it's supposed to be a sitting for Joe. Yes. It's supposed to be for you. It's just the problem is they tell you things you already know. And I'm like, this is just, I guess there's something to that, right? There's some sort of clairvoyance to that if it's real. Only if they can read your mind. You're saying, well, then that's only relevant because they're reading're reading my mind which is a holy cow that's not what i'm saying at all

i'm saying they're they're telling you they're giving you these questions in a way like i have a friend who does this he's a mentalist he does it out of las vegas and he tells me it's all bullshit he tells me how he does it he tells me how he structures these questions and probes people and gets people to give up information then he makes these educated guesses and then they start saying oh my god i can't believe you know that you are not supposed to say anything more than yes or no you don't talk during the sitting you're supposed to say yes or no that's it or say or say nothing that's it you're not supposed to talk okay well listen i haven't experienced this before i try to keep an open mind. If someone actually could do this, that's pretty

spectacular. But to my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time reading about these things and reading about skeptics and the James Randi challenge and all these different people that have tried to attempt to demonstrate psychic ability, that no one has ever successfully done that okay let's go back earlier am i wrong jamie well wait a second like if the james randy challenge like he's oh he was a fraud forget about james randy yeah he was a lot of people he wouldn't he wouldn't have ever paid out anything if somebody had been successful but people all know that no he would not have paid it out because he disputed, arbitrarily disputed, everything that would have been attempted. And finally people quit because he was not going to

be fair in his judgment. What is fair though, in terms of psychic ability? If you could prove psychic ability beyond a shadow of a doubt. The preponderance of evidence is what's fair. But what was his rules? What did he want you to establish? I don't care about James Randi. I care about Joe Rogan. And my premise is this. I wish we never talked about this. We just stuck with aliens. Okay, but wait a second.

Wait a second. Earlier, correct me if I'm wrong, you actually said, yes, there could be legitimate mediums. Yeah, it's possible. And there can be better ones and really terrific ones and different capabilities. Yeah, maybe. My problem is your conviction, your belief in this is so strong. Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be legitimate mediums as opposed to saying they're all fraud because I know a magician. No, that Joe's open-minded. I'm willing to believe that it's possible but i don't understand why you're so convinced by just one story about music in a room maybe that's what happened maybe this lady tuned in to the the the

akashic records and figured out that there's some music in the room when your wife is dying. I would argue start with, and time is precious for a busy guy like yourself, but you have to start with reading good literature, reading good books. Okay, tell me a good book on psychics. I'll have to send you a list. Okay. I'll send you a list of things to read, and I'll do that. You've got to give me how i do this okay we'll talk afterwards but you understand that most skeptics believe that this is all bullshit right well they

would or they wouldn't be skeptics but i mean that's what they do they study things that are extraordinary okay there's open-minded skeptics too you can be skeptical but still be open-minded skeptics too. You can be skeptical, but still be open-minded, right? Right. Right. And I don't, I don't immediately buy off on anything I'm all I'm told just because I hear something. I like to, to get to a point where I stay open-minded and then I may start to shift into saying there's more and more maybe to this. Let me investigate more. I'm not going to let go until I investigate more. So just because I had one sitting here with this particular person, I've had others years ago.

But you seem particularly convinced that... Well, this particular person was very good. It was three and a half hours long. Okay, so was there another example besides just the music? Yeah, there were a number of other examples i'd have to stop and and uh and regurgitate everything okay because right now it was enough to convince you pumped up for space questions about space cosmology ets survival consciousness, and what kind of car is the most fun to drive? What kind of car is the most fun to drive?

The Lamberdoodle. The Lamberdoodle. What is that? It's a name I gave a car I just bought. What is it? It's an orange Lamborghini called Ursa? Ursus, yeah, the truck, the SUV. Yeah, it's an SUV.

640 horsepower, four-wheel drive, eight speeds forward. It's the most fun car I've ever had in my life. It's a cool car. My friend Russell Peters has that exact same car. Who does? Russell Peters, hilarious stand-up comedian from Toronto, Canada. It's an exciting car. Yeah, he loves it.

He's got the same color, too. In fact, I bought two, and one's going to be given away at the Larry Rouveau Cleveland Clinic Gala in October in Las Vegas. It's going to be auctioned off. Oh, really? And the price of that car is $286,000. I think it's more than that. Out the door. That's tax and everything. And he's going to auction that car off come October.

I think they're lying to you. I think it's more than that. You should be. I think that car's like $300,000 and something, isn't it? That's an expensive car. It says MSRP base is $200,000. Oh, the base. $280,000 280 for the base yeah russell's was like super loaded up you want to be at the gala to bid no why not i got things to do why not i'm busy oh

come on i'm gonna go be it's a lot of fun larry rubo puts on a hell of a show every year for these galas and they're they're fantastic i'm sure yeah like a good time. So that's the most fun car to drive? For me, it has been. What other cars have you driven that are like contenders? I have a Corvette my wife bought me when I was turning 70, and I can't control it. Which one? Is it a ZR1 or something? I don't know.

It's a Stingray. Wow. It's too much car. It's goosey on the rear end. It's too square. Yeah, I get it. And I can't predict where it's going to go. Well, you just need to learn how to handle it.

The new Corvettes are better for that. They're mid-engine now. I can't see out of them. The new ones? The rear window. There's no rear window. It's like four inches high. Yeah, it is a little smaller. And an 18- up behind you what do you do hit the gas yeah don't

let them be behind you they make me too nervous i understand yeah the new ones are pretty sweet though it's uh and they've they're it's much better traction with the mid-engine design yeah yeah um let's get back to aliens because we've been talking for a long time, but I really want to talk to you about this. What evidence do you think is the best evidence in terms of what physical evidence? Is it just video? Is it just photographs? Or do you think there's physical evidence that either our government or some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a shadow of a doubt because i know jacques valet who was on the podcast before discussed um um we were talking about specific metals that have been examined that these alloys

that if they had been produced uh in mass it would be billions and billions of dollars for these alloys. And that this was, although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that because of the examination of these alloys, that this is not something that's mass produced in this country right now, or in any country right now. That this is something that if it was done it would cost an insane amount of money to create but yet here it is right yeah so people have pieces of things that are like that that have been I don't I've assumed they've gone

through electron microscope and Elixir, but they are very unique in how thin they are, how many layers of material they have, and the view, the opinions are that we can't make them. And that these things have been recovered from crash sites apparently apparently yeah but that's that is part of the problem right is that there's so little real concrete information like there's there's no consortium of scientists that's aligned together that's saying this is 100 from another planet we we've all examined this we've got together with the people at Stanford and we we've done these

tests and this is what we know and here's the press conference right but that's never happened yet well so far the there have been investigations on these materials um, and they're anomalous. Yeah. Do you think that's the— They could be, you know, something that's part of the kitchen of the UFO, you know, some bowl that they ate out of. You know, who knows and because you how can you tell about a craft just because of one little piece right other than Bob Lazar's experiences which you know he has of course the most

spectacular experience I actually haven't been there at s4, you know, I wish there was a way we could convince whoever is in charge of that to allow people to film this, to allow people to examine this, to bring in the scientific community, if it is a real thing. But the other thing about the Lazar story was that element 115. What are your thoughts on that? 115 what are your thoughts on that this was the idea that there was some super spectacular element that was a new version of propulsion so instead of shooting something out of the back end it was literally bending gravity yeah i don't know enough about it to really comment. I mean, I'm not saying about anything to do with disparagingly with Bob Lazar at all. I'm just talking about the Element 115.

I have no understanding of its properties and what it can do or not. I don't have any information. Like I do on these other subjects, survival of consciousness, I don't have any information about Element 115. Did you talk to Bob about it? Oh, no. No, the conversations about it were somebody had taken his and he was kind of regretful that he had let go of it in some

way and he wanted to get it back and and uh and this was when he was at s4 yeah yeah yeah so but i i don't remember much about um conversations how much, what all of its properties were and that kind of thing. You know, did you bounce a ping pong ball and it didn't come back to you straight? It took off in a different direction or something or a candle flame? I don't know about those things. I don't know. But I think that, oh, I had something else I was going to say and I forget now on that 115. Oh, well, I forget what I was going to say.

His diagrams of the, uh, the UFO of the... Oh, I know what it was. Oh. Okay. Getting back to these kinds of treasure. Okay, getting back to these kinds of treasure. You were talking earlier that really what ought to happen is there ought to be a major program where you're gathering all the best scientists to analyze the hell out of all these materials that have been retrieved. Yeah. But the problem is, you know, a lot of this stuff

purportedly is in corporate hands. Corporate hands. And some in government hands, okay? And it's come to be kind of corporate treasure and national treasure at the same time because there's a relationship between a company and the government that has this kind of treasure. It's a national kind of treasure, no pun intended there, but a sense, it's a national treasure, right? And so it's also a phenomenal treasure that isn't understood. And so the problem is it may be the most precious thing around.

You know, you don't have diamonds that are more valuable. Right. You know. Especially if it really is from an extraterrestrial craft. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's drug out every 10 years, looked at to see if there's anything that has improved in 10 years on the understanding of X, Y, and Z that makes sense or has something else shifted? Has something else happened in the last 10 years that could make a difference on trying to understand the material or craft or whatever?

So you think that's what they do with it? They drag it out when technology has advanced and say, what do you think now? Right. And allow people to examine it. And then it goes back in storage because not enough has changed not enough has changed you know we were talking about the speed of our technology but it's all relative right right so this technology is so much more advanced you could do 10 years for 100 years and still be way short. Now, how do you know that this stuff is in corporate hands? Is this just hearsay?

Is this the discussions you've had? I would imagine because you're so open about your interests that in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA or there's got to be other folks that also have similar interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things. Yeah. interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things? Yeah, so there's a community of people, not necessarily NASA people, but that have been trailing this for years. George Knapp, for example. George Knapp, for example.

And so it's not poorly known that certain corporations are involved. It's not poorly known. So it's kind of common knowledge? Among certain folks. Some people. Yeah. That corporations are involved because they recovered it or they acquired it and that if they were able to mass produce whatever these alloys are whatever these particular properties of these metals are there would be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff

it may be too precious for that what about bodies? Now, are you talking about the Las Vegas desert or what? I'm talking about alien bodies. No, not like Sinatra's enemies. Splashes in Lake Mead at 1 o'clock in the morning? No. Off of a cliff?

I'm talking about like alien bodies. That was one of the weirdest stories about Roswell, was that they had not just recovered a crashed UFO, but they had recovered these alien bodies. What do you think about Jackie Gleason's wife's story about he and Richard Nixon? Yeah. Nixon taking him to the base and showing Jackie. Yeah, I remember that story. I had a friend who knew Jackie Gleason, and he said that Jackie Gleason had recreated in his backyard

what he saw, what Nixon showed him. Oh, wow. Yeah, that apparently he was so blown away by Nixon, I guess they were drinking. This is the legend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nixon and Jackie Gleason were drinking. Jackie Gleason's a fucking hilarious drinking. This is the legend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nixon and Jackie Gleason were drinking.

Jackie Gleason's a fucking hilarious guy. Probably loved to drink. I mean, definitely loved to drink and probably so fun to drink with. Him and Nixon are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a UFO?

And takes Jackie Gleason to wherever it was, Hangar 18 or wherever it was where they had this UFO and shows him and apparently changed jackie gleason's life and he couldn't stop talking about it and what i had heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard this thing see if there's a story that's a powerful impact isn't

a story i'm looking through yeah yeah so he saw something yeah listen i'd be friends with nixon just for that it wasn't because of the booze right no no i don't think it was because of the booze i mean look i i am a as as ridiculous as it sounds for someone who doesn't believe in psychics uh i'm a believer i i want to believe you know that's that's problem probably part of my problem is that i want to believe sure sure and also there's so many planets there's so many stars i mean the universe is littered littered with planets and the idea that this is it that you and me this is as good as it gets well the odds of that are a trillion to one yeah they're not that good it's it's off the table the odds are so unlikely and then when you take into account people like commander david fravor who i've had the pleasure of sitting down talking to and and listening to his explanation and then when you realize that the way his vehicle the

vehicle that he observed moved mirrors what bob lazar talked about from 1990 now we're now we're talking we're in this weird realm of like huh so i'm a believer yeah so yeah if if the government has it i mean shit in the the 1960s when nixon was president and him and jackie gleason are partying that that that's a credible story or at least a fun one i always thought it was you find anything i can't find the thing about the backyard because it just keeps bringing up his UFO house he had in New York. Which is like a UFO shaped house and a bunch of interesting cool shit inside of it. Oh, whoa.

Maybe that's part of it. Okay. Upon his arrival, armed guards took Gleason to a building in a remote location on the site. There, Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings two feet long with small bald heads and big ears.

He was told nothing about the circumstances of their recovery. He swore his wife to secrecy, but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story. That bitch. He swore to secrecy. That's what happens when you divorce them. In the mid-1980s, when ufologist Larry Bryant sued the U.S. government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried without success to subpoena Gleason.

Holy shit. So that's the thing in his house. That's his backyard. That's his UFO house. So he built a house. So that was what they were talking about. It wasn't that he just built a ufo he built a fucking house shaped like a ufo where is that uh new york is that still there

you ought to buy it that's what i'm talking about bro that's what i'm talking about it was for sale well here's the reality.com thing for 12 million 12 million oh that's a little steep for a fucking house he couldn't negotiate negotiable but it's jackie gleason's it's probably worth it just because he's jackie gleason's uh listen the hustler is one of my all-time favorite movies i'm a pool player and so that movie i've seen that movie literally probably a hundred times because they used to they used to put it on in the executive billiards in white plains new york they would play it late at night all the time so So we would be playing pool. They'd put the hustler on. Everybody loved it. Such a great movie.

And Jack Gleeson was amazing in it. And a serious role, too. Not a comedic role at all. Yeah. He was great in The Honeymooners, wasn't he? He was great in everything. Jack Gleeson was great in Smoking the Bandit. He was just great.

I love that guy. But I love him even more because he's a UFO freak. Do you think that they have some sort of body somewhere? Yeah. You do? I do. What makes you think that? I think, what would be, why do I think that?

What would be, why do I think that? Trying to narrow it down. Well, I think that, I'm trying to not get into conversations. So I think that because it's in the, I think there are enough different kinds of sources in the media about people seeing things. I did an interview years ago with Safro Henderson and Stan Friedman and Kevin Randall. Went to her house in California because her husband was Pappy Henderson. And Pappy Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material, flew stuff out of Wright-Patt. And she said, he said, they were in a grocery store one day and the inquirer had a big article, aliens revealed, so on and so forth. And they're at the checkout stand.

And she said he took the story seriously and And after they checked out, he said, well, I guess I can tell you now because it's out. So he told her. He thought the inquirer was serious? He thought it was whatever it was. Inquirer, I think it was. Could have been some other one, but I just used that as a. Right. As one of those tabloids. As one. Yeah. Magazine. One of those tabloids. As one. Yeah, magazine. And he said, well, I guess the story's out.

I can tell you now about I flew crates and wreckage out of, and he told about the whole UFO thing. And I believe that she said that he said to her there were bodies. Now this was part of the story that went with the whole Roswell crash, was that there was a local mortuary that was told to make small coffins, and that people had said that they had seen these bodies, and that the wreckage was flown in two separate planes to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And that if they really thought it was just a balloon, why would they fly it in two separate planes to Wright-Patterson?

And that Truman, it was Truman, right? How is it they couldn't recognize balloon material from something else? And you had a refield that was a quarter mile wide, half a mile long. Yeah. It's all pretty fantastic stuff. But again, part of my problem is i want to believe that's part of my problem yeah is that i'm willing to bullshit myself well do you do you believe in a god force a god force a god or god or a god force do you believe there is such a thing what can you define it well um do you have any belief that um there is a supreme being of the universe or a god force of some kind i don't think it's impossible i don't know

i don't know what creates a Big Bang. Like what starts this whole process? What causes nature? What causes all these elements to fuse and create carbon-based life? What causes planets to exist in a Goldilocks range around the sun? Is it just happenstance? Is it coincidence? So Big Bang, you know, is on its way out.

The Big Bang is on its way out? It's on its way out. Oh. Okay. So it's like fossil fuels? So, string theory is on its way out. Is it? Yep. What about all those guys that have been scribbling shit on legal pads for years? So, like a physicist friend of mine said very recently,

that perhaps an entire generation has wasted its time. We've lost an entire generation of people, maybe longer than that, in my opinion. So what do they think now? The thinking is, first of all, it's a little bit bogus to think that the universe extends only as far as you can see, 13.5 billion light years. I think they don't believe that, though. They think that's just as far as we can measure it, right? Well, they assume that the universe is expanding, and they're judging that based on

13.5 billion light years of sight. Right. Okay. That may be a very, very small neighborhood, but that's as far as the cave wall is, and you're not seeing beyond the cave wall, right? You're also telling me that you know a lot about the cosmos, and you want me to believe you, but yet you don't know what 95%, 96% of the cosmos is, of the energy.

You have no idea. Dark energy, dark matter right you haven't a clue right and you're telling me that you know all this stuff about the cosmos and you're missing 96 of the information really i think what they're trying to tell us is this is what we know so far i think that's what they're trying to tell us i I think they're as perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are, but they have a lot of information about background radiation, about the signals that seem to indicate. In a neighborhood.

In a neighborhood. Yeah, in a neighborhood. In our neighborhood. Well, if the universe is infinite, 13.5 billion years is nothing. It's like literally this block. Yeah. Not even. And then, of course, what singularity?

You know, Big Bang started from what? From what? From what? And so string theory, a series of what, 11, 12 theories, hypotheses stand on top of each other. And they all have to be perfect. They all have to fit. Before you wind up with this other conclusion that basically everything started from nothing well they don't think it starts from nothing they think it started from an infinitely small point

that exploded in an instance and created all the matter that we see in the universe today so i concede the head of a pin as not being nothing okay i concede that well better concede it because it's got more matter i've got to concede that anything Well, better concede it because it's got more matter. I've got to concede that that's the theory. Anything in our solar system or galaxy. That's only the theory, though. Okay, right. It's just the theory. Right, just the theory.

Right. So it's just an opinion. Right, but it's an opinion by people that have been studying this their whole lives. And now it's going out the door. It is? That's what I've been told. Who told you that? The psychic?

No. Now, if I correlate the physicists that told me that along with the psychic, you really have something here. No. I think there's been a bunch of different ideas about the Big Bang, whether or not it's a constant cycle of expansion and contraction. And then there's been. I kind of actually like that one. Yeah. I like that.

A certain kind of steady state of elasticity, expansion and contraction that continues to go on and on with the orderly force being whatever dark energy and dark matter is to maintain organization. Structural domain, harmony and everything. So you reach maximum elasticity and then it starts to retract again. Yeah. To your density is maximum density, and you do this all over. That is a theory that I've heard. I like that one. Another theory that I think is pretty fascinating is the theory that inside of every black hole might be another universe.

That the idea of inside every galaxy apparently is a supermassive black hole that's exactly one half, I think it's one half of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy. So this intense, massive black hole at the center of every galaxy. And the theory, at least the one that I had read, was that if you could go through that black hole, you would enter into another universe and that each of these galaxies has infinite like there's infinite number of galaxies essentially right there's hundreds and hundreds of billions of galaxies and each galaxy has a black hole inside of it a supermassive black hole and that through that you would go into

another universe and that there's infinite universes because there's there's just all these portals and inside each one of them there's hundreds of millions of galaxies or hundreds of billions of galaxies each one of them has a black hole go through that you reach more universes with hundreds of billions of guys and it's just that's true infinite and you can have the same effect if you have infinite bubbles. So you have multiverses that are these bubbles. Maybe the bubbles are 100 or 200 billion light years in diameter, and they just have unlimited.

So I don't buy that space is finite. I think it's endless. I don't think there ever was a beginning. I don't think there was an end to the universe. And so I think time is only relevant when it's connected to some kind of matter or electrical energy or like electrons or protons or something like that. And otherwise, there's no time. Because what are you measuring it against? Right.

So that means that, okay, time could be infinite. Okay. And so is distance. There was no beginning and there is no end. Yeah, that freaks us out. But so should 13.5 billion years, 13.5 billion light years. That should freak you out too. All of it is beyond our possibility of understanding because it's just so massive.

Like when you see the number 13 billion it's like okay i see it i know how many zeros there are but my brain's not ready for that it doesn't it doesn't really compute yeah but what does that have to do with uh the concept of god though so i was asking you do you believe in a god force you said yes you think so i said it's it's certainly possible okay now why do you think it's possible Because the universe is so spectacular that the idea that there's some force that's created it doesn't make it any less spectacular. It's so insane. Just what you're looking at on a night sky, on a clear night sky, if you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane. a clear night sky if you're in a place with no light pollution is so insane the idea that there's some god force as well that makes all these things happen and creates all these things and there's

there's actually like a good path and a bad path for at least sentient life forms and that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this this matter coalescing like that, that's possible. So if you think there's a God force that's omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, what role does thought play in that? It's a good question. Thought could be what we were talking about earlier, that this could be how this human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to create and innovate. And this is what creates this new form of life. I've often said that I think that human beings might be some sort of biological caterpillar that gives birth to an electronic butterfly that we create something because of our desire for

innovation and for material possessions and for there's a lot of weird instincts that people have you got to wonder what how are these serving us like how is it serving us to live your whole life to try to buy a new house on a lexus like what is it what is it about that well there's something about the pursuit of material possessions that encourages innovation and encourages the production of things. That's what people do. They make things. And if this is what our goal is, just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things, what's the ultimate expression of those things? Well, the ultimate expression would be a new form of life.

And it seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction. There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction of artificial intelligence, of robotics. I mean, there's so much research that's going on right now to try to create these autonomous things that move around on their own,

whether it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones that can fly themselves and operate on on artificial intelligence like there's this direction is going to eventually if you talk to people far smarter than me like elon musk is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and that it's going to lead to something that's super potent sentient far than us, and has no use for us. The next stage of life. Not a good thought. Yeah.

So then you keep it open that God can be a creator and can respond to the power of prayer. If you are praying for somebody, and there are a lot of studies that say the power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind of effect, you know, that it actually works if you have a control group and a group that you're praying for and a group that's, you know, there have been a lot of tests like this that are double-blind tests, and it works in a laboratory kind of context. What is it that's responding to the request for prayer? Is it a God force? What is it that's responding? I don't know that that's true.

I don't know that it's true that prayer works like that. I do know that the placebo effect works, and I do know that the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed I do know that people have the ability to change their state of mind and it'll change their physical well-being I do know that people have the ability to boost their immune system through breathing exercises and meditation and that we don't totally understand how they're doing that or why they're doing that or why we can't recreate that without that kind of discipline. Or maybe it's just an emerging property of being a person.

Who's written some good books. He's an M.D., retired. And I guess he left the hospital world because he was intrigued with the anomalies he found among his patients. And one of his books, I think, has something to do with the title of power of prayer his name is larry dossie dr larry dossie and um and uh it's a really book that's worth reading okay it's he authored it quite a few years ago and he talks about the power the power of prayer prayer and a bit i think he gets into um the investigation of the power of prayer that works so that like well you know i think that's also probably works in a negative way too right this is what the concept of voodoo was concept of voodoo was that someone puts a curse on you and they let you know they put a curse on you and

then your life is fucked and then you get it in your head that your life is fucked and then you have this self-fulfilling prophecy. Well, supposedly the results under tested, you know, legitimate test conditions are that the results are greater than you can explain otherwise just because of just you may not even know that you're being prayed for so it's a controlled situation so you don't even know that you're part of the group that's being prayed how would you measure that though when you're talking about response from illness and everybody varies depending upon your immune system and there's a lot of different things your nutrition youth youth, health. I think that gets into how the tests are set up

in order to make sure that they're balanced in the group, the sample group that's being prayed for, or the person, maybe it's an individual. I think if someone knew you were praying for them, it would help. That seems to make a lot of sense. If you know you're being loved, it would make you feel better. It would make you energized. When you're loved, there's a feeling, a reaction. According to the literature, not just his book but others,

that it helps also the number of people that are praying for you and how committed everybody is to that, how earnest they are in the effort. So apparently that matters. What do you think about all that, Jamie? It's a lot. It's a lot to think of. Listen, Robert, we've had a long conversation here.

I think we're three hours in? Yeah. Three hours. It's been interesting. Well, it's no restroom break, and I'm just're at three hours in. Yeah. Three, three hours. With no restroom break and I'm just fine. You're amazing. A lot of, a lot of people, they tap out early. They'll run out to pee. You handled it like a champ. But thank you for all your work. Thank you for all the things you're, you're interested in investigating and thank you for your time to come here and sit down and talk to me well i'll tell you this is my pleasure i i this is for me that it's a it's a great honor to be able to be on your show thank you it's an honor to have you appreciate it thank you sir thank you

very much all right goodbye everybody