The Joe Rogan Experience - #1645 - Christopher Mellon

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

Christopher Mellon spent nearly twenty years in Washington serving in various intelligence roles, among them Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and Former Minority Staff Director for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Alright, well thanks for being here man, appreciate it. Pleasure, absolutely a pleasure. Tell everybody who you are and what your background is. Okay, my name is Chris Mell, and I spent about 20 years working for Uncle Sam, worked in the Senate for the Intelligence Committee, and for Senator Cohen,

also did some Armed Services Committee work. When he was asked to become Secretary of Defense, he asked me if I would like to go with him to the Pentagon, be part of his team, and I was honored and gladly accepted. So I then served for four years in the Defense Department with Senator Cohen, Secretary Cohen at that point, in various positions, all intelligence related and security related. And then I was asked to stay on after Clinton departed. And so I worked for Secretary Rumsfeld. And then went back to the Senate Intelligence Committee as the minority staff director shortly before the second Iraq war. So when did you get interested in the subject of UFOs?

That happened at a surprisingly early age. of UFOs. That happened at a surprisingly early age. I was seven years old at a boarding school, and the principal of the school, a friend of his, had photographed a video, an old reel-to-reel Kodak movie camera, had taken a movie, a home movie of a video of a UFO flying in beautiful blue skies, cumulus clouds, huge golden disc that comes into the picture and banks, goes into a cloud, and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very, very hard, I think, to fake somehow, particularly in those days with no computer-generated imagery. And it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off over the horizon. And I was stunned and flabbergasted. Myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars.

And it just sparked my curiosity, a lifelong curiosity. So once you got into government, and once you were, I mean, you were there. You were basically there. You had to start asking questions like, did you wait a while? Like, how long did you ask for? You were like, hey, what do you guys know? Yeah, well, for a long time I waited.

Very rarely. I looked for openings. I looked for opportunities. So, for example, you know, the stigma is so great that you're reluctant, obviously, to raise that issue. A couple times, there were some natural opportunities. So, one of my colleagues on the Intelligence Committee was going to Hawaii for some oversight trips, meetings, and he went to the Maui Space Optical Tracking Facility. And I said to him, while you're there, why don't you just check and see, do they ever see anything weird they can't

explain and so forth? So he did. And Pete called me up and said, hey, you wouldn't believe this. I've got this videotape here. And it shows these weird things. And so I talked to the Air Force people. They sent the tape to us. Turns out it was totally unclassified. I showed it to Senator Cohen and some others, and it ended up on national TV, actually, but it didn't generate any further response. Everybody just kind of threw their hands up in the air and said, well, you know, that's interesting, but we don't know what to do with it. It was a Ted Koppel's Nightline show

that this tape was played on. It showed sort of five objects moving parallel to the ground, possibly in formation. They're in the atmosphere because they're burning, they're interacting with something. You know, there's plasma coming off them,

which wouldn't presumably be happening in space. But they seem to be too slow to be meteorites. So it was mystifying and difficult to explain. Never did get an answer. Occasionally something like that would happen. By and large, the issue almost never arose. The issue is a weird issue because if you bring it up in the wrong company or at the wrong time you could be dismissed as a loon did you feel that when you were there like

as a person who had a budding interest in unidentified flying objects and and what have you did you feel like this is a politically risky thing to discuss, especially to discuss like in serious terms? Like, do you believe in these things? Like, what are they? What do we know? Was that an issue? Absolutely. I concealed my interest in the topic for years and very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow traveler who was interested in this topic but by and large absolutely wanted to conceal that and not reveal that did you know Clinton no no he would be the guy that i would go to i feel like there was a

request that came to me once that i think was from president clinton and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen um a ufo out at edwards air force, and it was videotaped, he said. And he described this in his memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape, of the video. And Secretary Cohen came back to the Pentagon from a meeting, and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape. And unfortunately, there was, I got nowhere with that. The Air Force was adamant that there was no such tape, there was no such information. Anything they had on UFOs had been destroyed. So I had one of these situations that's very common in this area, which is you have just two apparently credible sources, but utterly conflicting, irreconcilable information, which seems to

happen often in this field. Now, being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world, what's the general perception when people are discussing these things in Washington? What's the general perception of what's going on with these things in Washington. What's the general perception of what's going on with these things? I'm happy to say that it's changed. That perception has changed considerably in the last few years. People feel like they have permission to talk about it.

When do you think this happened? This happened after the New York Times article and subsequent press beginning in 2017, December 2017. And that sort of gave people permission to talk about this. And I've actually had Pentagon friends who said, you know, this is kind of cool. We don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore. What do you think kept it in the closet before? Like when did the stigma start? And do you think this was like intentionally sort of set up this way? It was. It was the Robertson Panel Commission, 1953, and they concluded during those Cold War days that this was a potential threat to national security because UFO reports might overwhelm our air defense and communication system,

and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue. So they actually advocated in writing that this issue be debunked and discredited and the government went ahead and did so extremely successfully, unfortunately. And this all started with the Project Blue Book, correct? Correct. It was during that era. So what was the gentleman's name that was running Project Blue Book again?? Correct. It was during that era. So what was the gentleman's name that was running Project Blue Book again?

Well, there were different people. The guy who went on. The astronomer, Alan Hynek? Hynek. And Hynek went on to become a believer. So he started debunking and was told essentially the way he reported it

was that he was told to kind of debunk every single case. Everything he could find, whether it was swamp gas or, you know, ball lightning, find some way to explain this away. But then once he left Project Blue Book, he started openly discussing these cases, and he started discussing his own belief. That's correct.

And he felt badly burned as well because he was trying to carry out his mandate that the Air Force had given him. As you may recall, in one instance, he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstruing swamp gas for flying objects. And so Gerald Ford, who was representing that district, got incensed, as did the local population and Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic and Dr. Hynek was very embarrassed and understandably so. It was really quite insulting to these people who had had very clear sightings of these objects. So he did eventually change his view publicly and was very critical of Project Blue Book.

Was all this stuff like being inside the government and knowing how prevalent these sightings are and how credible some of them are? Was it frustrating to you to be a part of this and to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted? to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted? It's interesting. What happened actually is that I wasn't seeing information squashed or distorted in the Pentagon or the intelligence community. I saw one instance of a very technical, very classified report that explained away some sightings that nobody even knew were being reported otherwise. It was kind of odd to see this explanation about an incident that had not been otherwise reported. But generally- What was this incident?

This was some military pilots doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights. doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights. And the Directorate of Science and Technology at CIA did an extensive analysis and found a plausible explanation for what they had seen that was not extraterrestrial. And so they published an article on that. It was a good article, a good piece of research. But the only time, that was about the only time I ever saw anything that in writing about this subject, which the government said it wasn't following, it wasn't interested in. And you almost, I had

friends who would call me up. I had a Navy friend who was a pilot and he said, you wouldn't believe what happened at our base today. There was a plane up and there was a UFO flying around it and it landed. And he was, you know, he knew I was interested in this from college days. And he called me up with his hair on fire to tell me about this incident. But that kind of thing was not going up through channels. So people in the Pentagon, to the best of my knowledge, all the way up to the SecDef, were not hearing or seeing any of these reports. It wasn't until I met Lou Elizondo and his group and some of the Navy guys and talked to the pilots about what was happening on the East Coast from 2015 onward and the Nimitz incident that I found out that this activity had been going on and just wasn't being reported.

So was it that no one in the Pentagon was seeking this out? There wasn't a mandate to go look for it? There wasn't a department that was designed to seek these things out? I mean, what was the reason why it wasn't getting all the way to the Pentagon? Well, specifically in the case of the Navy in 2016, just today, I believe, or yesterday, DOD announced that they're going to do an IG investigation of this incident, of this phenomenon. What's IG mean? The Inspector General.

Okay. Sorry. So there's going to be an internal investigation at DOD of how they handled this UFO issue. And I believe it's, this is, it's not clear yet. They just made this announcement and their motives and what sparked this are still a little bit uncertain, but it appears they're going to focus on this issue of how did this fall through the cracks for years? How is it that these guys are flying around seeing this stuff? It's on the radar and nobody up the chain of command is being notified.

Policymakers, the secretary of defense himself, Congress, et cetera. It was just going into the ether. There was no effort made to to get support to any of those guys. And that's when I kind of threw the bullshit flag and said, this is unacceptable. And so that's when I started jumping into this. Do you think it was because of the stigma that's attached to the subject that they just didn't bother bringing it to their superiors? Absolutely.

Yeah. People were afraid to report it. And as we saw in the Nimitz case some years earlier in 2004. Let's explain what we're talking about. We're talking about Commander David Fravor and his sightings off the coast of San Diego, the tic-tac-shaped UFO that moved at extraordinary speed with no known propulsion system. They tracked it on radar. It was actively jamming

their radar. It went to their predetermined point where they were supposed to scramble. Cap point. Yeah. So somehow or another, it had information as to where they were traveling to. Extraordinary capability. Went from 80,000 feet above sea level to one in less than a second. They have no idea what it is, what it does. And then the people on the Nimitz were saying they had been seeing these things. Correct. And on the Princeton. And when Dave and the other F-18 landed, there was no interest on the part of the intelligence

officers of doing anything really other than ridiculing them. So they came out with tin hats on and foil hats, and they were playing Men in Black song or something. But that case was phenomenal because there were so many witnesses and so many different sensor systems that were verifying independently the visual reporting. the visual reporting. So there were multiple radars, there were infrared systems, perfect viewing conditions, broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, multiple aircraft, and all of the data agrees that these craft are doing things that we thought were impossible. And then there was also the thing that led them to see it in the first place, which is that he thought there was something under the surface of the ocean. What happened was he was vectored, he and his wingman were vectored to intercept that Tic Tac at that point. And when they arrived and looked down, they saw it moving

around and they saw the water roiled. In fact, I think first they saw the water before they saw the Tic Tac. They saw something unusual. It looked like white water breaking on a reef kind of thing. Right. And then they saw the tic-tac, and then Dave dove down to get close to it, and it reacted to his presence, turned around, viewed him, and then started taking countermeasures. And it was clear to the pilots in both aircraft that this thing maintained a dominant position throughout their engagement with it, that it could easily have done what it wanted to them. They had no chance really of getting behind it or getting the upper hand in that engagement. Then when he went and reported this, that's when things get weird, right? Because people have to dissect this information and look at this guy commander favor a very respected guy not the type of person who makes up wacky stories then when it's supported by all this data i think that's what that's probably one of the biggest ones that led to

being included in the new york times right correct absolutely because it was so credible and because and then there was the go fast video and the FLIR video and all these other videos that show these things moving in extraordinary ways. Correct. And they're authentic. The Defense Department acknowledged those videos. Why do you think they did that? They didn't do it initially, but ultimately they didn't have much choice. And I think the reason that they finally did is because we had taken this issue to Congress.

I had taken – I contacted some former colleagues on the committee and said, you guys really ought to look at this. I mean, it sounds crazy, but give me a chance here. And so a couple of them started taking interest. Some of the staffers started meeting with some of the pilots. some of the staffers, started meeting with some of the pilots. When they started requesting briefings that, you know, coming from the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, that went up the flagpole at the top. And the Navy brass and the senior Pentagon civilians in the Office of the Secretary of Defense became aware that these committees are taking an official interest now. And, you know, we can't fool around with this. And we have to really be straight and put it out there.

So at that point, they couldn't tell them in private, yeah, this is real, and then publicly deny it wasn't. Yeah. So they came clean. So this is the great shift, right, the great shift in our time from UFOs being ridiculed and being these silly things that tinfoil hat conspiracy theory people believe in, to the Defense Department agreeing that this is an issue. That's correct. Very interesting to me. I saw your interview with Elon Musk, and he seemed unaware.

He's an alien, bro. Listen, he's covering up. Maybe he's part of the cover-up. Yeah. Because he seemed unaware that his own government has taken the position that UFOs are real. I got Elon in trouble because we smoked pot on the show. I heard about that. And when he got in trouble,

his top-secret clearance was in trouble, and there was a lot going on, and I think he's trying to play it straight and narrow when he's around me now. Like, aliens, outrageous. I was advised that getting high in the program would not be a good thing to do. Yeah, it's not a good move. Don't do it.

If you want to drink, that's probably a better move. I'll stick to the coffee. Okay, stick to the coffee. That's a good move. We want to be clear here, right? We want to be clear-headed when we discuss this because it's such an easily ridiculed thing. It's one of those things like psychics and Bigfoot. You bring it up and people just automatically start rolling their eyes. But statistically, if you just look at the size of the universe and you look at the fact that there's so many Goldilocks zone planets

that they've already discovered, and then also the wide variety of life that exists in various conditions on earth. Who knows, right? And who knows whether or not these things are living in the ocean? This is what's bizarre to me is there's a lot of these sightings, the one in Hawaii recently, and there's another one that Jeremy Corbell leaked this photograph that shows something disappearing into the ocean. graph that shows something disappearing into the ocean they seem to there seems to be multiple sightings and multiple witnesses that discuss things going into the ocean yeah that that is absolutely true um in terms of backing up on on your your questionnaire a little bit um you know people ask me do you think do you believe in aliens? And that's really not the question or the issue for most people. There are probably, in an infinite universe, an infinite number of alien civilizations.

The question is, you know, could we ever communicate with them or have contact, right? So what's interesting about that to me, in part, is that we have NASA spending billions to try to find alien life, even if it's microbial. We have Yuri Milner spending hundreds of millions and supporting the SETI program. And meanwhile, we have these things flying around our atmosphere that we're seeing on the radar that kind of look and act like what you might expect

if somebody sent a probe. Somebody followed the trajectory, we're on ourselves today. And they're doing incredible things that we don't understand. And yet the scientific community and the government have not wanted to dare to ask the question in this context that they ask every day in this other context with NASA and spend billions of dollars on.

And there's no crosstalk. You know, scientifically, we would expect actually, you know, they're listening for these signals from outer space, but it's more efficient to send probes and it's safer. And that's what we are doing ourselves. Right. And so that's what would probably be more likely. A probe would give more information.

It wouldn't reveal the location or the source of the civilization that was sending it. It's more dynamic and versatile. It could get closer to the target, et cetera. There's all kinds of advantages, including energy. And it would be easy for a civilization more advanced than ours, we're getting on the cusp of this ourselves, to create, using artificial intelligence, probes that were self-sufficient, launch them out in whatever numbers, let them go see what they find and report back. And that's entirely plausible. There's no scientific reason for thinking that that couldn't happen. Moreover, if even one space-faring society started to expand outward as we are

in our galaxy, in the Milky Way, within a tiny fraction of the lifetime of the Milky Way, they could explore and colonize the entire galaxy. So even if they haven't achieved superluminal travel, they can't violate the speed of light and go faster than that, if they went, they can't violate the speed of light and go faster than that. If they went, say, 20 percent the speed of light and just continued to steadily expand their domain and explore outward in the space of two or three million years, they could have gone from one end of the galaxy to the other.

So, you know, it's not an unreasonable proposition. It's a question of getting the facts. And it's about time some of us think that we take it seriously and start looking at it. Do most people who look at this believe that this is some sort of a probe? Like when you look at the Tic Tac video? Well, Dave himself says it's not from around here. It wasn't made here. Not made by us. And he doesn't propose to say where it's not from around here. It wasn't made here. Not made by us.

And he doesn't propose to say where it's from. Some people suspect, as you suggest, that it could be ultra-terrestrial. It could be something inherently from our planet under the ocean that's been here for a long, long time. perhaps a way station that some AI established that just is a waypoint here and it monitors what's going on in this planet and stays under the ocean, comes out, looks around, reports back and just has been doing that for thousands of years, but not aliens coming and going. There's all manner of theories. That's one of them. But I would say that on the inside, the people that are really close to this in the Pentagon, they face the dilemma we all face, which is what hypothesis can explain what we're seeing that is prosaic, that doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or something like that.

doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or something like that. It's very hard for us to believe that the Chinese or the Russians are that far ahead of us in such basic technology, such fundamental technologies. Perhaps it's true, and that's got its own set of problems, but either way, we need to get to the bottom of it. That's my position, at least. Yeah, there's some of these things that it's not outside the realm of possibility that's a drone, like the most recent video, the pyramid shaped objects that are flying around. You've seen that, right? Absolutely. Yeah. What was your take on those things? You know what? I want to see the rest of the data. They've got radar data on that.

And from the radar data, they should be able to gain some real insights as to where these things are coming from and going to, trajectories, speeds, all that kind of thing. That hasn't been released, right? That has not been released. They're still analyzing that. I don't think that they will comment publicly on that, unfortunately. But they do have that information and other information. So we should be able to gain some insights. It's entirely possible that they are drones. Tyler Rogoway is a brilliant analyst of aviation issues who works for the war zone.

He's written a very lengthy piece making that assertion. Could be right. I'm a little skeptical. but we'll see that's why we need more data what do you say well the duration of the of flight was far longer than drones routinely can what was the duration hours so typically um if it's um an electric drone it has a very short uh flight time these things. These ships were 100 miles off the coast in conditions of low visibility. And so whoever was operating these things was traversing a long distance probably. There were only a few other ships in the area.

And they know what those ships were. And they deny that they were operating these craft. So they were in the air a long time. They were very rigorous in the manner in which they operated as a unit. They clearly intended to get our attention. They were operating in a manner that suggests they were trying to provoke our air defense systems, see how we would react, you know, maybe see what frequencies we start communicating on, what actions we take, and so forth. It's the kind of thing we sometimes do ourselves to the potential adversaries to help game the situation out. So, you know, I have a completely

open mind on it. I just want to see the evidence. But there's some features of this that if they are drones, they're probably more advanced than anything we have. Now, one of them was flashing, right? Jamie, see if you can find that video. Is that your breathing? It is. I was trying to figure out what that noise was. See if you can find that video. I've had my COVID test. No, I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I was just trying to figure out what that noise was. The one with the flashing light? Yes. That one, okay.

Yeah. Have you seen? I've seen that, and it looks like it's flashing sort of the way an airplane would. Right. At the same rate. But what's odd about that is you're in a restricted military airspace. Commercial aircraft have transponders. You would know if they were commercial aircraft.

They're looking at the radar picture, so they would know from that if it's a commercial aircraft. It's hard to understand if it was a commercial aircraft of some kind or even a private plane why they wouldn't be able to identify it. Yeah, well, the flashing, I mean, yeah. See, you can see it here. So this is the leaked footage, courtesy of Jeremy Corbell. So, like, you see it. Now, either it's reflecting something that's flashing off the ship or it's flashing itself.

And there was three of them that they tracked right i think that's the right number yeah the thing about these things is yeah yeah it's extraordinary it's crazy looking it's it's weird to see these pyramids floating through the sky but they're not moving like the tic-tac it's not doing something that we can't do it's just you see them move around it's it's really weird but it's... It's not definitive evidence of anything at this point. It's strange. It's peculiar that it's happening around a warship. Yeah.

And that our guys don't know what it is. And it looks like some of these things are entering and leaving the water, which is really peculiar. So it's an example of the kind of thing that we just haven't been looking at that's going on. We've been blowing off. Right. And now we're finally getting some traction and getting the government to say, you know, yeah, we probably really ought to pay attention to this. Do you think that there's a more, there's more frequent sightings or do you think they're

being reported more now? There are certainly more reports coming in, civilian and military. The technology that we have today is leaps and bounds over what we had even a few years ago in terms of resolution, distance, range, all those kinds of things. The latest generation of radars that are being deployed are a huge step forward from what was in the fleet just a few years ago. So that is probably leading to some reporting that we didn't have before, things that were out there, but the radar cross-section was so low they weren't appearing on people's scopes. So I think it's probably a mixture of things, but what is concerning in part is that some of this

activity is more in-your-face kind of stuff. It's more like not elusive, you know, on the edge, you see it and it flies away. It's coming to a nuclear power station and buzzing around it and staying there. It's coming around these warships and making a point of being seen. It's coming to a Air Force base in Guam and doing the same thing. So that's new and that's a little concerning. And haven't there been reports of them showing up around missiles and doing something with the launch codes or stopping the power from working in these places or something along those lines?

Some sort of manipulation of the power systems, almost to let you know. Yeah, this is one of the most provocative and fascinating and important stories in this whole area of UFOs and national security. And we have retired Air Force officers who've testified to this, and there are FOIA documents that support these claims. But the Air Force has never been asked by Congress or anyone to address this. They've never acknowledged it. There's an opportunity to do that now. And I think it's long overdue. This is stunning, if it's true. I mean, this is the backbone of our nuclear deterrence strategy. It's really the crown jewels of our freedom and independence and ability to deter nuclear powers like Russia and China. You know, this is kind of the ultimate insurance policy

militarily that we have. And if someone can come in there and turn these things off, that's, it's just shocking, absolutely shocking. So because of the stigma, Congress has been unwilling even to ask the question, even in private, even though this is very well documented. These people have come out in their retired uniforms and things and with their documentation showing where they were assigned. And in one of these cases out at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe it was, there's a good book because the local sheriff was responding to so many calls from civilians in the area to UFOs that were being seen and encountered. He co-authored a book on what was happening. So there's a lot of data about this, but yet there's no official confirmation that that occurred. Yeah, the sheer volume, I would like to know whether or not they are increasing in volume or whether or not it is just an increase in our ability to detect them. And we don't really know, right? Because it's been 2017, so it's not that

long ago, four years when it really started being something that people were willing to take seriously. Because of the New York Times article you know there's just a few videos that are pretty extraordinary the go fast video when you hear the pilots going what the fuck and you're watching that thing buzz across the water with no heat signature yeah the in terms of reporting there has definitely been an increase a surge the last 12 or so. And you see this on the public side with organizations that track these things, the Mutual UFO Network and so forth. They've had a surge of maybe 20 percent. Some people think, well, maybe it's COVID. More people are outside looking at the night sky.

That could be some of it. There are more reports that are coming with video and photographs these days. If you look at these websites, New Fork and MUFON from, say, 10 years ago, not so many people had cell phones in their pockets. Routinely now, you'll see very strange photographs and videos. Frequently, most of the time, there's a prosaic explanation, but not always. And so my sense is that there's probably a little bit of both going on, more activity. Some of it's a little bolder than we've seen in the past, but also better instrumentation to record this. Another thing that's happening, certainly on the government side, this is the big thing, is that people are less afraid to report it.

So there was a lot of stuff going on. We don't know how much because nobody was reporting it. And I've been in meetings with people at the Pentagon with guys who were commander of an AWACS aircraft, for example. And they'd say, yeah, you know, we saw some really weird stuff, but we weren't telling anybody about it. You know, we tore up the files. weird stuff, but we weren't telling anybody about it. We tore up the files. Guys at the National Security Agency or other places who said, I kept a book of anomalies, weird things, and then I didn't turn it over to my replacement. I just tore it up. So we have blinded ourselves. We've done this to ourselves, and we're playing catch up now.

Well, unfortunately, some people are full of shit. And that muddies the water, right? Some people do make things up. Absolutely. That didn't help, for sure. Yeah. What do you think about mass sightings? Like, what was your take on, like, say, the Phoenix Lights? Yeah, that's fascinating.

And there are a number of these mass sighting cases, and not just in the U.S. There was a soccer match in Italy, reportedly, with 10,000 fans at a stadium. The game came to a screeching halt. People watched this thing overhead. There were some mass sightings in Brazil and other places. The Phoenix case, what I find most intriguing about that, one of the things, is that Fife Symington, the governor of Arizona, who's a former Air Force officer, himself said after the fact, he saw this thing and it was not a plane, it was not flares as some of the Air Force contended. And that was the triangle shaped object that was enormous. He said it was at least a

football field long, maybe several football fields. Correct. Yeah. Huge. And hundreds, if not thousands of people saw this. They had very similar sightings. Yeah. Yeah. And hundreds, if not thousands of people saw this. A number of people took videos. They had very similar sightings. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar. And it was coming down from, there was quite a path of sightings. So before Phoenix- Is there a video? I'm sorry to interrupt you. Is there a video of the triangle? Not that I know of. I've not seen it if there is. The videos were all just the lights that are in the sky, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they said that they were flares, but they're hovering. Right. Yeah.

Because it takes a long time for, I mean... There were flares out that night, and so that muddies the waters, right? I think they determined there were actually some aircraft doing an exercise to drop some flares, but this seems to be something apart from that, at least what Fife Simmington and many others reported, hard to reconcile with the flare exercise.

Well, the problem with the flare analogy is unless the flares were suspended with balloons where they were slowly lowering from the sky, it doesn't make any sense because they're hovering. Yeah. I mean, they might have been flares suspended by balloons and slowly making their way down. But, you know, see if you can find the Phoenix Lights video. It's weird because if they would just drop flares, they would drop. They would drop. The speed of gravity would be normal.

Well, in some cases, people also saw these lights moving in formation. Yeah. So, as far as I know, flares don't do that. I've seen flares, and that's not what I observed. And this was what, the 90s? Was this the 90s? This was 80, late 80s, I believe. Was it?

And, you know, drone technology back then was pretty unsophisticated, right? Correct. The kind of drones we have now, so here it is. Like, get the fuck out of here. That's not flares. Like, those things are not dropping. They're hovering there yeah it's very strange i mean it doesn't look like flare flare to me also the way flares illuminate right the way they radiate light um it could be some different kind of flare possible i mean it could be instead of a flare it could be some sort of

massive led light. Because the sheer size, too, when you look at them hovering over the city, you have to take into account that, if you look at that image right there, you have to take into account everything you're looking down there is buildings and windows and streetlights and all that jazz. Those things have to be massive to make that much illumination while they're in the sky. If you just had a flashlight and you were hanging a flashlight in the sky, like what is a thousand feet in the air or so? Who knows?

Whatever it is. Probably a thousand feet. A couple thousand feet. If you had a couple thousand feet up in the air and you had a flashlight, you could barely see that thing. Absolutely right. No way. You wouldn't see it like that. Whatever that is hovering over that city, that's bizarre.

And whatever that is, it was seen by people hundreds of miles in both directions. Yeah. So it wasn't just Phoenix. It was reported in the sequencing all fits. There was something that appeared to be flying down from Nevada, entered northwestern Arizona, continued over Phoenix, and then down south. And people along that pathway were reporting this, hundreds of people. Yeah, and this, we were watching the video, it just stays there.

Like, it's not dropping. Yeah, and this one's not moving, which is curious, too. Yeah, if it was going to drop, it would, I mean, if it was just dropped out of a plane as a flare, I mean, for sure, it would be way lower by now. Like, those things are flying, whatever that is. Look at her. The flares I have seen in military exercises dropped at a pretty steady rate. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty clear.

You know, it looks like something dropping. That's something hovering. There was a few other ones that have taken place. The African school children Ariel? yeah that's a crazy one it is crazy and there are other cases like that there's a case very similar in Australia

supposedly thousands of people were witnesses to that event and there were dozens at least 50 school children who saw this thing and teachers. But yeah, that's really bizarre. And that's part of the challenge with this phenomenon is you get into these areas very quickly and it makes it even harder to have the discussion. Yeah. It makes it harder for government people, politicians, and others to engage. It reminds me a little bit of Galileo when he was before the Inquisition for claiming that, you know, it's a heliocentric solar system.

We're going around the sun. And he said, you know, just look through the telescope, guys. Come on. Look through the telescope. You'll see. They wouldn't look through the telescope. When you bring this, look through the telescope. You'll see if you, they wouldn't look through the telescope. When you bring this issue up, a lot of people just stop right there.

They don't want to hear anything else. They don't want to talk anymore about it. They're done. Yeah. So it's a challenge. I do think there has been a shift. And I think, I agree with you that the big one was the New York Times,

but I also think the Bob Lazar documentary was a big one too. Because when you listen to Bob talk over long periods of time and you hear him describe what it is that he saw, what he supposedly worked on in the late 80s, and the way he described the propulsion system, which is exactly the same way that Tic Tac thing moves. That's what's bizarre. It's like in the other one, was it the FLIR video? Which video where it turns sideways

before it takes off? That's Gimbal. Gimbal, I'm sorry. When you watch that video, you're like, what is that? The one where it's rotating? Yeah. That's Gimbal, yeah.

What's really also interesting about Gimbal is that off the screen, there's a formation of UFOs flying towards the Gimbal and the Navy aircraft that are there. And when you hear the one guy remark, one of the pilots, he says, look, dude, there's a whole fleet of them out there. That's what he's referring to. There was a V-shaped formation of these objects approaching the gimbal, which then veered away and flew off. And they don't have any idea what those were.

Yeah, the gimbal one is weird. And I've seen people try to debunk it too and it's it it's so strange when people try to debunk things that you really can't explain so here you see this thing move it's moving and then at one point it turns sideways so they're switching between different ways of viewing it and they're trying to figure out what it is but they're trying to figure out what it is. But this is just, what is this, infrared? Is that what this is? Correct, forward-looking infrared radar. And so they're tracking it, trying to figure out what it does,

and then you see it rotate. And that's bizarre. Yeah, and there's a strong headwind, so it can't be a balloon. I mean, the headwind's like 120 knots or something. It's just so... And then off-camera, as I said, you've got this formation approaching, this V-shaped formation of craft, and they don't have transponders either.

What the hell are they doing in there? And did they get footage of the formation? I don't believe so. Now, how does this footage get out? Did somebody leak it? Yeah. But leak sounds pejorative. Let me try to put a positive spin on this. Somebody released it.

Yeah. They went through a proper process and it came with documentation that said approved for public release. It wasn't like it just went out the back door. The rub in part is that public affairs didn't know about it. So they got their nose out of joint. The rub in part is that public affairs didn't know about it, so they got their nose out of joint. But it actually had gone through an official review and had documentation saying approved for public release. Wow, that's interesting. I wonder why they've decided to approve that for public release. Well, there were some people on the inside who were worried that this issue was not getting any attention and were very concerned about what was happening, very concerned about the national security situation.

I had actually introduced Lou Elizondo, who was leading a small effort in the Pentagon to try to track this activity, to two people who were direct reports to General Mattis. And so when I first found out this was going on and it was falling through the cracks, I thought, well, maybe we can get this up to the front office and at least make them aware. And unfortunately, after several meetings and bringing pilots in, these individuals became aware that, yes, indeed, something is happening. But they were confirmed they were concerned that general mattis might be contaminated politically from even taking a briefing they were very protective of his uh his reputation and his stature which is understandable

you mean contaminated if he took a brief if he took it just from hearing the brief okay so just people would question his right what is. Right. Was it crazy? Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So they didn't want that to happen. And this was kind of happening out of normal channels, which are suffocating in the Defense Department. Normally, any memo to go to the SecDef has to get routed through like 14 or 17 different offices.

All have to approve. And if they have a question, it stops the process and they have to be briefed and convinced to sign on. And then it goes into a line with thousands of other packages. So this is an attempt to sort of expedite this and get it to a senior level. Is that one of the more extraordinary things about the fact this stuff is being released, the fact that everything generally does have to go through so many levels, that they are kind of throwing their hands up in the air and going, we have to do something or say something. Well, there were a few,

I won't call them whistleblowers, but there were a few people who were very concerned and willing to take this out of normal channels because it wasn't even that people were having trouble moving along. It wasn't going anywhere. Nobody, NORAD didn't even know. The North American Aerospace Defense Command was not even being notified that this was happening right off the coast. Now, when you look at the gimbal video, did they have some sort of a radar on this before they went and tried to meet up with it? Like, how did they find out where this thing was? I don't know in that case. I know for certain in the case of the Tic Tac in 2004 with Commander Fravor that the Princeton was guiding them with its Aegis radar to the intercept point and tracking

it afterward when it went to the cap point. In this case, I suspect it was a ship guiding them, but it may have been their onboard radars because they have very sophisticated radars. And the pilots that I've spoken with out there said, we would see these things all the time. Yeah. We'd see the radar, see them showing up on radar all the time. And a couple of times, guys just went to investigate for themselves. They had enough fuel or coming back from an exercise and said, I'm going to go check that thing out. And so I'm not sure in this particular case, which it was, but it could have been either.

I think something to take into consideration is the vast spans of the ocean, too. I mean, if you were going to try to hide something, you know, as it were in plain sight, there's no better place to do it than the ocean. Right. I mean, there's nothing out there. Right. It's mostly a desert, a giant wet desert, right? Yeah, it's vast and largely unexplored and unknown and inaccessible. We do have the ability to, if we become interested in a particular area, to really do some serious reconnaissance underwater, we have resources.

But again, somebody has to make a decision. How specific do we have to be in terms of like, it's not like they can look at the entire Pacific Ocean, right? Certainly not. But with bottom scanning, sonars, and things like that, they can cover pretty large areas. So in the case of the Nimitz- And do they doitz from a ship they could do it from ships they could do it from submarines they can do it from various kinds of platforms and but would it be like being in California on

a plane trying to look at the entire country no I mean in the case of the Nimitz for example they had a lat-long where they had the intercept. So they had a very precise location. And looking under the ocean— Lat-long being latitude and longitude. Latitude and longitude where that incident occurred, where they vectored the jets to. So looking a few square miles around that area would have been very feasible. That would have been feasible, a few square miles.

Yeah. It depends on how much resolution you want. So if you want really precise resolution, there's always a tradeoff then in the time it takes to cover an area. Right. And so they could do a larger area more quickly at a lower resolution. But to really look closely and carefully, the sun underwater sounds like a radar kind of, but when it's focused, it can give you a very strong picture of what you're looking at. And it can also detect metal,

it'll bounce off more strongly, you get a stronger signal and things. So they can do a pretty efficient search if they want to. That's assuming that this thing is still going to be there. Right, if it were, or if there was still something down there. That it doesn't recognize that they're there like the tic-tac did and block their tracking which it did right correct yeah there was there was interference

um i not with dave i think but at the cap point where uh yet another f18 the same day went out ch Chad Underwood. That's when they got video of it, right? That's when they got the FLIR video. And he could not get a lock on. And as I recall, he felt his system was being interfered with. Yeah. So what I was getting at, though, is it's not like we can drop something in the Pacific Ocean

and get a detailed map of the entire ocean. No. Hell ocean? No. Hell no. No. Yeah. Impossible. They kind of would be like looking at the entire country from California in a plane. Like, you're going to miss a lot.

There's no way you're going to see the whole thing. What's interesting, I mean, from overhead imagery now, even commercial imagery, with artificial intelligence, you know, we're able to pretty much map the world every day. And if you have a particular profile you're looking for with these computer algorithms, you can search all that imagery fairly quickly. So the reconnaissance capabilities are extensive and you can cover large areas, particularly if you're looking for a particular thing

and you can describe it well so that if it sees a match the computer sees a match it it identifies it there is a lot there's just mountains of data coming into this panoply of sensors that we have from thousands of miles out in space to closer in space to the air ground seasea. There's a layer, a mesh network around the entire planet, essentially. Except in the ocean. Well, in the ocean, we have sensors, but it's not the same kind of coverage. We kind of have to get lucky. Yeah, I mean, certain areas are very closely monitored. Choke points, for example, are going to be natural places you're going to want to look carefully. And certain kinds of things are going to give a pretty strong signature.

But that gets off pretty quickly into the area that is confidential. The government keeps confidential. I bet they do. But I would imagine, though, that if I was an alien, I would definitely hide in the ocean. I would say that's the move. It would be a great place to do it. Yeah, you could fly around in there. There was a sub accompanying the Nimitz carrier battle group, and it didn't detect anything in the water.

So there may be an ability to move underwater and remain undetected, much as there's an ability in the air to go at supersonic speeds without creating a shockwave. Whatever this technology is, it has some very unusual properties. Yeah, that's the bizarre thing, right? The supersonic speeds. And then that brings us to Lazar's depiction of how these things worked, that they somehow another bend gravity, these things that he worked on, which is the model that's on the desk there that's uh supposedly a detailed model of what that thing

looked like that he worked on the sport model i think they called it that's what he called it yeah when you watch him talk and you hear him give his description of his time working there and what he saw and what he thinks those things are. What was your take on that? I thought it was curious and interesting. I mean, I've been to Area 51. I didn't see any flying saucers or anything like that. What did you see? I saw Defense Department experiments being performed and training activities and that sort of thing.

Nothing that the taxpayer would object to. Of course not. But it's a big range. There's a lot of stuff going on out there, and there's a lot of adjacent ranges. If you look at the map, actually. Area S4, where he was. That's what he said, yeah. That's what he said.

I found his explanations curious. Yeah? How so? The complexity of it and the fact that he talked about Laurentium, for example, and then decades later it turns out that apparently there is a more stable form of that. That's element 115? Sounds right. I couldn't tell you for sure. But it's called Laurentium?

Laurentium. That sounds like something from Battlestar Galactica. There's all this stuff that gets you into that, right? I couldn't tell you for sure. But it's called Laurentium? Laurentium. That sounds like something from Battlestar Galactica. You know, we need the Laurentium to power the ship. All this stuff takes you into that, right? Right. So now I'm a little skeptical about his claims, I have to say. A friend of mine claims to know the gal who was his supervisor when he worked out there and knows what he was actually doing and where he was located uh and claims that uh that he was a guy who checked

radiation on badges that's it yeah and so all the rest is fiction according to that story and this is a person that you know yeah maybe that person's full of shit maybe you know i don't have the ground truth on this. It's interesting. He did falsify his educational records. And he's been involved in some other things. And it just doesn't track with what- Are you talking about the MIT records?

Yeah. Yeah. He explained that to me. He said that he was working on something for the government. And they sent him to MIT to learn something and he I can't say too much I'll tell you off air because he told me not to talk about it but it makes more sense when you hear his description of it that essentially it wasn't documented that he was studying there because what he was doing was really a terrible thing,

a terrible experiment they were working on. When I explain it to you, maybe it'll make more sense. Okay. Maybe not, though. Maybe he's full of shit. Maybe he lied about that. What's interesting, though, is he's told the same exact story since the late 80s, and he doesn't seem full of shit.

Now, some people are really good at lying. And, you know, I've been tricked before, and I'm sure you have too. There's some people that are just sociopaths. They're really good at... Yeah, they don't even, like, know they're lying. They're, like, convincing their own head why they're spinning it.

He's obviously, though, he's obviously very intelligent, and he obviously knows a lot about science. He knows a lot about propulsion systems. And he really did work at Los Alamos, which is interesting because he's actually on the employee roster and they tried to say that he didn't. He knew people that were there. He knew the layout of the building. When he went there with George Knapp, they went through the building.

He knew exactly where everything was and he knew the people that worked there. So he really did work there apparently allegedly his story what's interesting to me is that again it's the same story over and over and over again and then what's also interesting to me is that he knew and took friends to a place where they were testing these things out and he knew where it was and he knew when they were doing it and he brought his friends out there and that's when they got arrested yeah it's a very uh i think there's some consistency there um that is hard to explain how would he know where to go and right what was going on um there are some possible answers to that i've

poked into this a bit um supposedly there was a bar off base where the scientists and a lot of the aviators and people would go and hang out. He frequented that place and picked up information. So, you know, I hear stories on both sides of this. I don't know what the ground truth is. And I remain skeptical. But, you yeah you know hey there's a lot of crazy stuff going on i enjoyed his company i i went to dinner with him and jeremy and uh i talked to him for several hours uh on the podcast and off the podcast i uh i don't know you know i don't but it's a it's a weird one because he never made any money doing that never made any money telling that story I'll tell you another story offline we can exchange

stories offline I'm excited I can't wait for this to be over now um what other stories are compelling we talked about Travis Walton who is I got a Travis Walton bobblehead ladies and gentlemen from Travis himself and Travis is the uh the man whom the movie Fire in the Sky was created about, his event that happened in Arizona, correct? Correct. When he was working for a logging company and encountered an object and went missing for several days and came back with this fantastic story of being abducted by aliens. fantastic story of being abducted by aliens. Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting him once with two of my boys and listened to his story and read the book and so forth. And it seems credible. As incredible as it is, he was missing for those five days. No one's ever found

any explanation of where he was. There was a full manhunt going on. There were like six or seven other guys who saw the UFOs, saw this beam strike him. He's told the same story for years. It's, you know, I asked him a couple of questions and he gave quick, rapid answers. Of course, he's been telling this story for a long time, but he didn't sound like someone who had to pause and, know try to what am i going to say with this you know he seemed very natural talking about it um according to that story as you know he uh woke up on an examination table lashed out these beings were examining him He runs into the hallway, runs into another room, and these very Nordic-looking individuals come in and settle him down and escort him out and so forth. And days later,

he wakes up next to a road hundreds of miles from where he was last seen. What do you do with a story like that? It's just so hard to independently confirm anything. There's nothing that contradicts his story that we have. But it's not possible to confirm it. So it goes into a category of which there are a great many wild, incredible stories like that that really make you scratch your head. There are some where there's a little more evidence. There's the Cash Lundrum case here in Texas, for example, where a family was severely irradiated.

They saw a UFO blocking the road, stopped, got out of the car. It fried some of the paint. They end up in the hospital. You know, serious radiation poisoning. Sued the Defense Department thinking it must be some DOD project. DOD swarping down it wasn't theirs and they lost the case. What year was this? 70s or 80s.

I'm not sure. Cash Lundrum. You can find it on Wiki. It's public knowledge. Was there any images of their car? Excuse me? Was there images of their car where the paint got fried? I believe so.

I want to look at that. I'm not aware of that one. I hadn't heard that one before. are visibly affected and physically ill and have red marks on their skin and very ill. And they're not well-known, those cases. I see this, not a car. This is the burn on their hands? Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, when I say fried, I mean, I heard the paint was damaged um i don't know if there's and this was where in texas this was uh dayton texas near dayton texas which is

a couple or three hours uh west of here huh three live in pain and terror after attack by blazing UFO. Is that from the Enquirer? Oh, they lost their hair. Damn. Yeah, typical radiation effect. Very strange. Very strange and very well documented. The doctors, the medical reports are all there.

Nobody has a good explanation for it. And there are other cases like that. There are actually quite a few. Strange stuff. A lot of them are when people are driving, right? There are many cases of driving. And often the car is cut out. Yeah.

Engine stops. Yeah. One of my favorite ones is Betty and Barney Hill. And there's a woman named Angela Hill who's a top UFC fighter. And her grandfather is Barney Hill and I didn't even know until after I was done talking to her then she explained it to me huh I was like what so I'm like alright next time we do a podcast you gotta tell me about your grandpa I saw mrs. Hill one time on an

old TV show called truth or lies or something like that and they would put people on a polygraph test on the show. They'd bring them out, interview them, tell your story. Then they did a polygraph right there and gave the result to the audience. And Mrs. Hill came out and passed it with flying colors. She stuck to her story about the whole abduction, passed the lie detector test, and I think she'd taken them before. The other problem I have with that is hypnotic regression. Hypnotic regression is very odd, right, because you can sort of suggest memories to people.

I don't know what the hypnotic regression was like, you know. There's a problem with suggesting things to people in various states of vulnerability that those things become false memories. It's really common. You know as well as I do, the human memory is this incredibly flawed thing. And so if you're in a state like hypnosis and someone starts suggesting to you that perhaps you were involved in some incredible experience and so was your husband

and this is what he saw and this did you see something similar and then i don't know i'm just guessing i just have a problem with hypnotic regression you know you're right to have those concerns i think most cases of alleged abductions that rely on that you can't you can't really assign any credibility to it. What was interesting about the Hill case was that they had an individual who was trained and did not believe in this phenomenon, was not trying to lead them to that outcome. He was a military guy, and it was before this was a thing. Yes, that's what's interesting about it. It's the first one of those.

Yeah, so that had more credibility. Since that time, I think there have been real problems, serious problems with a lot of the hypnotic regression cases. What's your take on John Mack? Well, that is a case in point. I mean, I've heard questions about that. Interestingly, he went— Please explain who John Mack was. Sure. Dr. Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist and faculty member. And he began studying people who felt thought they had been

abducted and became persuaded eventually that this was really happening to them in some cases, not all cases, but in some cases, he believed they really were having these experiences, or at least they sincerely thought they were. I'm not sure he necessarily went to the point publicly of saying, yeah, I think aliens are coming down and scarfing them up. But I think these people are telling the truth as they understand it. And you mentioned the case, the aerial case in the former Rhodesians in Zimbabwe. He traveled there, interviewed the kids. You can see this in the documentary, The Phenomenon. There's good coverage of that.

You can see Dr. Mack in the movie and get a sense of him as a person. He seems gentle and kind and thoughtful. But I have heard a lot of questions have been raised about his hypnotic regression technique, which is what he mostly relied on. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard the same. The problem is when someone becomes a believer, right, and then confirmation bias.

They're looking for something. So easy to do. Yeah. So easy to do. And it's one of those subjects. For whatever reason, it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe. reason it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe i don't think there's another subject on earth other than maybe possibly religion that hits that that part of the brain like the alien abduction or ufo phenomenon does well i think it is like religion i think it is a desire to connect to something greater bigger to the beyond right uh infinitude, immortality.

I think it relates to all those things. And there's an innate desire people have, and that is going to influence a lot of the reporting. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. And it's unfortunate that we don't have, like, a lockdown, rock-solid lie detector test where you could give it to someone and go how much do you really remember like tell me what you remember let me see inside your brain yeah i think we're pretty close to that actually yeah would you think i think there are some tests now that um they're not being used for

that purpose but the government's done a lot of research and i think there are things right now where they can see kind of understand what you're thinking as you're thinking it and observe how the brain acts when people are lying versus when they're not lying but i've seen some write-ups on some of this right there's you're hiding stuff bro you know things can you tell me pretty sophisticated i can tell you both you start laughing too come on so deep in the government you know uh i hope so i hope they do have something like that. But how would that do with false memories, though? Because they can plant memories into people's heads. That's right. So they might see the brain reacting as though it were either lying or telling the truth,

but you'd have to probably be further down the path than we are today to know whether that could be a recalled memory. Whether that's all you're observing maybe an implanted memory yeah memory is just so shaky and when it comes to something that's so extraordinary like seeing a ufo i mean i've never seen a flying saucer or an alien but i could imagine if i did i would probably be so overcome with fear and excitement and emotions. Your brain is short-circuited. I can only imagine trying to decipher that. And then if I had to sit here and explain it to you and be completely honest about my experience, boy, I don't know if I could.

I don't know what I would get out of that, how much juice I would squeeze out of that. I've never seen a UFO myself. The closest thing I've had to something that might be that shocking and terrifying was being charged by a grizzly bear. Oh, shit. And I went into sort of a dissociated state, I think. Everything kind of slows down, and you're sort of thinking in the back, is this really happening or am I in a dream? And, um, you know, your mind goes to a different place when that happens, right? And all the adrenaline turns on and, you know, your body automatically does a whole bunch of things to

protect you. And, um, I, I would imagine that happens to these people when they see something like that close up. What happened to you? We were hiking in Wyoming, my wife and I, and she was ahead of me on the trail. And all of a sudden, and I was trying to make noise once in a while, and I was hiking with the bear spray in my hand because I was taking that threat very seriously. And all of a sudden, there was this spine spine tingling roar. I mean, I'm coming to kill you right now. You are so fucking dead. It was, it was, I've never heard anything like it. I wish, I wish we had it on a recording somewhere because it's not like what I've ever seen in a video or heard anywhere else. It was the epitome of ferocity, you know?

And so this thing starts charging up at us. We're up on a trail, on a hiking trail. And I just slip off the safety and start getting as much spray out there as I can. And it comes up on the trail and stops and looks at us. And he puts his head down. And, like, he's gauging us. And I'm just standing there putting the spray out. With the sensitivity they have.

I'm sure he was, you know, getting that. Although he was about 30 feet away kind of at that point. 30 feet away? Yeah. He was right there. Oh, my God. I think if it had been a female bear with cubs, I'm not sure that would have worked. But in this case, after seeing that we weren't attacking him, I guess. You know, when you surprise a grizzly, they have this adrenaline gate that opens and they're full on.

They just go nuclear immediately, not like a black bear. Right. And that's what happened here. But after there was enough time lapse, I think, between the startle and when he got up on the trail and was getting the pepper spray and saw us that he then walked, turned around and went up the trail the other way. But, yeah, your mind does unusual things when you get in circumstances like that. What did your mind do? Well, it was kind of a dissociated state, I think. I felt almost like I was in a dream state.

And part of me was questioning, is this a dream? Because this was kind of a nightmare situation. It's like the ultimate worst thing I never want to have happen. My wife and I get chewed up by a grizzly bear. And so I was thinking, you know, is this like almost pinching myself literally, you because i was questioning could this really be happening and uh yet you're on autopilot and you're just kind of doing what you need to do so in this case it was getting the pepper spray up taking the safety off and just putting as much of that between us and the bear as i could and and not running i think years later i was talking to a a game guy in africa and he said – I told him my story.

He had a lot of better stories than mine. But he said, well, you know, mate, why you lived? And I said, no, why? And he said, because you didn't run. And for whatever reason, we followed the training and just held our ground. Whoo! Calm under pressure, sir. Good job.

Like I said, it was dissociated state. I don't know if it was so much calmed as scared into, you know, doing the right thing. Well, the fact that you were

able to get the safety off and then pump the spray out there, that's calm. A lot of people just freeze up in those encounters, don't they?

Probably. I don't know that much about it. I think the mistake some people make is they have it in their backpack. Oh, Jesus. It was like with all their gear. And they're like, oh, where did I put that thing? You know I think the mistake some people make is they have it in their backpack. It was like with all their gear. And they're like, oh, where did I put that thing?

You know, and it's a little bit too late to be rummaging around through your backpack at that point. I have some friends that were in Alaska and they got charged by a bear. They had killed an elk and they were packing the elk out. And they went back to get it, the rest of it in the morning, because it's a long hike to their camp. And a bear had claimed it. And they didn't realize that the bear had claimed it until it was too late.

And then it came charging out an enormous black bear. You know, the black bears in Alaska are, excuse me, not brown bear, brown bear in Alaska. They're so big because they get so much protein. They get so much fish. And so it's an 11-foot bear just charging them and knocked them over. One of the guys, one of their friends actually wound up on top of the bear's back. Whoa. As it was running down the hill for a brief amount of time.

So for a second or so, it was actually literally riding this bear's back. And these guys all got out of it okay? They all got out of it alive. The thing ran off and it huffed. I don't think it understood how many people were there. It was a large crew filming a television show, and so as it ran off, it went into the woods for a second, and it was barking at them from the woods.

They all had guns, but they didn't have the guns ready. They were eating lunch at the time. I'm surprised they didn't have their guns ready because I've been hunting up there for caribou and mountain goat and other things and when you do have one of those kills when you go back to it Everybody knows that bears like to move in on those and and you know They'll just sleep next to it just keep wake up roll over and start munching again They even found bear shit as they were walking back. They found a pile of bear shit near the carcass Yeah, yeah, some people hunt bears by doing that They'll go to a carcass or shoot something leave it out there, and they just keep visiting the carcass. Some people hunt bears by doing that.

They'll go to a carcass or shoot something, leave it out there, and they just keep visiting the carcass. Yeah. So I'm surprised they were caught off guard that way, but thank goodness everybody came out. A famous wildlife photographer was actually killed very recently in Montana.

See if you can find this, Jamie, because this guy has an amazing Instagram page. And on his last post, which was just a few days before he was killed, he had a really cool photo of a grizzly bear. And he said he managed to get, because he had apparently been fly fishing, and he managed to get that close to the bear because he had smelled like he'd been catching trout all day. So the bear actually got close to him.

And apparently what had happened was he inadvertently stumbled upon a bear that had killed a moose. And the bear was protecting the moose. And I guess he was just trying to get a photograph of it or something. The bear mauled him and just tore him apart. And I think he died on the way to the hospital. I think he had a stroke it's uh it's these grizzly bears are terrifying totally unlike our black bears in the east yeah our black bears are slow to anger slow to move they're relatively gentle and out west the grizzly bears eat the

black bears you know don't treat a black bear and and take them down yeah uh they are absolutely terrifying if you're in that kind of situation i mean they're so powerful so fast uh faster than a horse and a sprint as you probably know it was just bananas yeah yeah this is why i had that pepper spray in my hand yeah because i you know was so concerned about that possibility as unlikely as it seemed i was terrified of that it's almost like worth carrying a large rifle yeah even if you're hunting if i ever went back to to grizzly country it wouldn't be with just just pepper spray yeah like a semi-auto 300 or something something heavy but what if the wind had been blowing the wrong way right exactly well my friend john john rivett, he actually runs a hunting camp in Alberta.

And he's blown pepper spray from a tree stand at a grizzly bear. And he said the bear just walked right through like it was nothing because he was angry. You know, this is funny because some of the pepper spray, a little bit of it got on me and more got on my wife because she was just in front of me between me and the bear. And it took like 60 seconds before you started to feel there was a lag after you got the pepper spray on you between when it started to burn. And then it would get more intense. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, that's not what you want. So I think if that's doing that to me and I don't have fur and I'm not a grizzly you know what's it doing to him but um yeah that's a little concerning too did you find the wildlife

photographer Montana I found the story I cannot find his Instagram page uh what's his name Carl Mock and you can't find Carl Mock wildlife photographer Instagram well there's that there's that horrifying story of the the bearer guy who got killed with his girlfriend, and he had his audio running, his tape recorder running while the bear killed him and ate him. Yeah, and then killed his girlfriend. Yeah, I mean, oh my God. That's Werner Herzog's documentary, Grizzly Man. Have you watched the documentary? I haven't watched it.

You should. You'll have a different opinion. Once you watch the documentary, you're like, huh. It kind of seems like suicide by bear. Yeah. But he was doing crazy stuff. It wasn't just crazy. He was doing what you're never supposed to do.

He was also there past the time when the bears were supposed to be hibernating. So the only bears that are outside of hibernation are really desperate for protein, desperate fat they they they'll eat anything and they just decided i think i'm gonna meet this dude and you know and he was annoying he would get like close to the bear hey mr chocolate like and then like it's it's it's the the video is the the film rather is hilarious unfortunately it's one of the most unintentionally funny movies you'll ever see. Because the guy, first of all, the man really loved bears.

There's no doubt about that. And had a deep respect for them and all those things are true. But also he's like a comical kind of a guy. Like he would go up to their poop and go, this was just inside of her. Oh my goodness it's still warm this is amazing i love you i love you and the bears like they're just trying to live

they don't give a fuck about you like they don't love you back like they have these dead eyes these shark eyes you know and you've looked they're just reacting to stuff yeah you know they they are predators they're wild dangerous wild animals they are predators. They're a different kind of animal. They're wild, dangerous wild animals. They are not your friend. They are not your buddy. I don't care who you are. It's cool that they're around.

I mean, it really is. It's an amazing thing. Grizzly bears, any bear, they're amazing. But, you know, be careful. Absolutely right. There's a lot of horrifying stories. Every year this happens to people. It's not an occasional thing.

It's 10 or 15 or 20 people every year. Yeah, a couple weeks ago, a guy got chewed up in Yellowstone. A guy got his head chewed up by a sow. I think that guy lived, fortunately, but he got mangled. They're so fast and so powerful. My friend John saw one kill a moose through a scope he was looking through a and he saw this bear chase the moose and swat it on the back and he said it literally broke the moose's back i can believe that just imagine that i've seen um video of a female grizzly whose cub got swept away in the current and washed down in front of a big male who was fishing for salmon.

And the male swiped at the cub. And sometimes the males will kill the cubs and eat them. Yeah. And the mother went after him. And it was much like what we experienced when we were hiking. You know, it was just nuclear. She she was all out he was bigger than her she didn't care she attacked him with everything she had drove him across the stream chased him up a hill and you know it happened just like that and uh life yeah it's overpowering you know there's when you When you're in that circumstance, you better have a way out or a gun or something.

It's just I think human beings have such a distorted idea of our place in the food chain. I really do. Because we're so, you know, we live in houses and we drive in cars and we fly in planes and we have guns and we can go to the zoo and see a bear. But when you're out in the woods and there's no rules and they're acting on the laws of nature, I just don't think most people have any idea what that life is like. Their life is just ruthless and short. It lasts for like, if they're lucky, they get 14, 15 years out of it.

And by the time they're dead, all their bones are fucked up and their face is torn apart by other bears. And, you know, and they kill things with their face for a living. That's what they do. And that's one of the things that terrifies people about this UAP issue that, right, we're top of the food chain. We're the alpha. We don't have to worry about that. We're in control of our fate. And then like, oh my gosh, well, maybe we're not. Why did they change it from UFO to

unidentified aerial phenomena? The stigma, trying to get away from that loaded term. And part of the term, the problem with that term is that people don't hear the unidentified part. They think automatically you mean alien spaceship. They say, do you believe in UFOs? Well, yeah, I believe people see things they don't identify they can't identify but that's not what people are thinking that you know it's not what they think they're asking you so people wanted a term that was a little more neutral is the worst case scenario that they are beings from another planet or another dimension or is the worst case scenario that these are things that China has developed or Russia has developed and they're so far technically superior to us that we can't even imagine?

That's interesting because both situations in a worst case could lead to a similar outcome. The Chinese are employing AI and information technology in a truly Orwellian fashion. They are creating a state in which they can monitor what virtually every conversation, people's movement, people's

employment, their location. They've got facial recognition detectors. They've got every cell phone has got like a patriotic scorecard on it, which they can download at a checkpoint. And as they continue to perfect that and implement that, you get a vision of that seems very alien of where you extrapolate that out 20 years. You've got absolute power and control at the top like a dysfunctional Hollywood sci-fi movie so it's conceivably almost as bad as the worst-case scenario of aliens coming in I don't know what should be worse when you think about space and

this infinite ocean and the shores it washes up on and the things that are in the shadows out there you know there's's no end to where your imagination can go. So it's hard to compare. But I don't think either of those would necessarily be a happy scenario. Well, I would think that best case scenario would be aliens because we would hope that aliens would be more enlightened than us. We know Chinese are not. They're just humans. You know, we know that Chinese people are no different than the Russians or than

the Chechnyans or the United States people. They're just human beings, right? Human beings are incredibly flawed and we're territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons right that's what we are we would hope that these things from another planet are far more advanced than us technologically and hopefully far more advanced than us spiritually the way they communicate maybe they're not warlike at all which is why there's been no stories about them attacking and killing people or blowing up bases or doing anything crazy when they've been chased by jets. They seem to be completely benign in that respect. So I think the best case scenario at this stage would be that they're aliens. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense.

And I think that would be the hope. And furthermore, that they would impart a lot of this information to us and technology in ways that... Would they though? I don't know. I don't think they would. But the best case scenario would be that they are benign like that and they want to help us.

Yeah. And so that's what we'd all like to believe. The help us part maybe, but show us the technology. But we're still us. The problem is we're still us. We're still ridiculous. The human animal in general, amazing, beautiful, incredible creations, wonderful creativity, but also frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack.

frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack i would hope that these beings that can travel across the galaxy would be far past all that stuff that's best case scenario because if it is russia or it is china you know they're going to be like we look i'm a proud american and i would like to think that the way we behave and the way we have governed in terms of the way we've used our superpower, although not perfect, has been better than if it was Communist China that was in the same, the CCP that was in the same position. I would think that we've done a far better job. I would think that we're certainly not as draconian in the way we treat our citizens. We certainly don't do things to our citizens in this current age the way they did to the Uighur Muslims. There's a lot of things that I like about the United States. But if the United States had the kind of power where they could just

travel through the galaxy and they could just show up outside of nuclear bases in China and do whatever the fuck they wanted and just disappear into the ocean. And we were the only ones that had it that would disturb the shit out of the rest of the world. Right. Even though we are the preeminent superpower, we, even though we are, you know, we're, we're the number one military power on earth right now, currently for, for the time being. Right. I wouldn't want us to have that kind of advantage over the rest of the world. Interesting. But if anybody did, I'd want it to be us. But I definitely don't want it to be China, right?

Absolutely not. That would be the worst. That'd be worst case scenario. We monitor the Chinese and Russians very closely, very carefully. We spend, I think the unclassified figure is about 70 billion per year on the intelligence program, There's about $70 billion per year on the intelligence program, intelligence community. And it would be very surprising and stunning if they had independently developed technology that was that far ahead of everything else and everyone else somehow secretly. So it doesn't seem likely, and we don't think that's the case. So, more likely ultra-terrestrial or extraterrestrial.

This is the conundrum. We don't see any evidence that it's the Russians or Chinese or anyone else, and we don't have any reason to believe that they have technology that can perform in that manner. So, you know, this is the problem. Where does that drive you? Right where where does that drive you right where does that drive you um what about the possibility of the things that bob lazar did talk about whether you believe bob lazar or not the thing bob bob lazar talked about that's fascinating was this possibility that we have obtained some extraterrestrial craft and that we are in the process of trying to back engineer it? Yeah, that's a really ticklish question for me and awkward. If I were to say, yep, it's true, nobody would believe me.

If I really knew, I couldn't say yes. And yet, so it's hard to give good answers to that question. I think it's plausible. I don't say that, think that people should roll that out. It's a legitimate question to ask. There's enough information to suggest something like that may have happened. We may have recovered some debris. What information? Well, there's some books about Roswell. There's some other cases like that may have happened. We may have recovered some debris. So what information? Well, there's some books about Roswell. There's there's some other cases like that where people have come

forward and said, I was in the military and I was at this, you know, retrieve where I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it and blah, blah, blah. And there are some in fact, there's some investigation going on right now on a new case. So it's not an off the wall question. It's a legitimate question. I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that it would be so deeply squirreled away that you wouldn't be able to bring in the best scientists. You wouldn't be able to bring in world-class scientists. You would have available maybe a few people inside some aerospace company, and they'd probably be very hamstrung in their ability to test and examine the material and so forth,

and, you know, it'd just be locked away somewhere. That's the argument for Bob Lazar, because Bob Lazar, at least on paper, is not a top scientist. He was a guy that had not the best credentials in terms of his education, but was clearly a very intelligent guy who was fascinated with propulsion systems, put a jet engine in the back of his car. And he was kind of a wacky, super genius dude. He was just a little off. And when you think about his description of how they ran the program, it's even more in line with what you would do

with something that was incredibly top secret. Whereas everything's compartmentalized. The metallurgy people didn't talk to the propulsion people. The propulsion people didn't talk to whoever else was on the project. I'm not saying that there's no reason to believe we might have some recovered debris. I'm skeptical about some of his claims. Yeah. Multiple full crafts, right? Yeah. And you

say there's like nine of them? Yeah. And different models and things. Some of the things you say don't sound like the government that I know. Like what? Like 21 levels of, you know, I had 21 levels of security clearance above top secret or something. There's no security system like that, that I've ever heard of. So there are things like that, that don't make sense from somebody who's been an insider. But is it possible that there might be something like that when it gets to a program that's as bizarre as back engineering extraterrestrial vehicles that they might put in place additional levels of talks top secret clearance especially when you're talking about compartmentalizing all these different aspects of the project that's not really the way it works the way it works is that

it you know they could make a special exception in this case. And DOE has something sort of like this. They have an alphabetical system with tiers of more classified stuff. DOE is? Department of Energy. Okay. So in the classified world, you've got the intelligence community and it has its own procedures and so forth. Then you've got Defense Department BlackRock programs, which are a different world. And there's a little bit of overlap in a Venn diagram sense. And then you've got Department of Energy,

which has billions of dollars in black programs, tens of billions, and very little oversight. So they have a system and a different clearance, which is a result of the Atomic Energy Act, not an executive order, which establishes the classification is a result of the Atomic Energy Act, not an executive order, which establishes the classification for the rest of the government. So something like that's not impossible. It could happen. Now, the Roswell story is a fascinating one, because there was an uptick in UFO sightings, or at least reported sightings that came after World War II.

And the idea is amongst, you know, the UFO cognoscente is that they were aware that we had detonated nuclear weapons and that we had blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And they're like, okay, these crazy fucks are, they're taking this to a new place. Let's, uh, let's zoom in and see what's going on down there. And then they started visiting us. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the story. Um, that's plausible to me. I mean, if there are aliens here, why are they here? What are they doing? Right. And when you look at the behavior of the objects that we're seeing, it's consistent with the possibility that maybe somebody has an interest in something here they want to protect.

And if we were to have a nuclear war, it might compromise that interest. So maybe they have a stake in some resource here or some capability or genetics or just whatever maybe it's an experiment and uh petri dish somebody started a long time ago they want their experiment to run to its conclusion i mean that's an interesting perspective there's so many possibilities when you start going down that path i i think um probes that are you know artificial intelligence probes that have the capability perhaps to manufacture or print robots or beings or maybe even genetically create something when it arrives at a destination is conceivable. traveled through space for hundreds of years or thousands of years arrive at a destination consuming very little energy the hallway all of a sudden boom and they create on board some some beings that can can operate things and perform tasks that are short live for that purpose monitor interact collect report

there's all kinds of possibilities that are within the bounds of science. Yeah, the imagination runs wild, right? It does, yeah. And when you think about what's happening currently with human civilization, if you take it from the advent of the nuclear bomb to where we are today with this weird situation with Russia and China and just even almost like a civil war, which is potentially possible in the United States as well. Like we're in this weird volatile stage of our development as a civilization.

Maybe that's a feature of evolution. Maybe when biological creatures go from being a thing that lives tooth and claw like a grizzly bear to eventually developing shelter and then eventually developing some semblance of civilization to eventually developing advanced civilization and space travel and all this other stuff maybe along the way there's this real possibility of fucking the whole project up and that it happens all throughout the universe, and maybe they've observed this. Maybe this is a stage of development that we are being given training wheels

and maybe a little bit of a helping hand by our extraterrestrial brethren who are, okay, they're there. They're right there. They're at that nuclear part. Let's keep an eye on these fuckers. That would be a nice benign view. I'd love that.

And it's possible that even by acknowledging this phenomenon, if we got to the point down the road where our government said, wow, there really is something from off planet coming here, it might help to resolve some of these differences and disputes between different countries. and disputes between different countries might compel us to collaborate more, to see ourselves more as one species, one people, and not Chinese versus Russians versus Americans. It would certainly stimulate a lot of technology, much as the space program did after they saw the Sputnik, and people got afraid of the Russians in space and they're ahead of us. And it actually led to cooperation. It led to progress in technology, a lot of good things. So I think there's a possibility that this could go in a very positive direction. That's what I would like to think. Now, Roswell as a case is really interesting, right? Because there's a lot of witnesses.

There's a lot of people that claim to have seen things. And the stories all kind of mesh together from Jesse Marcel to all the different people that claim to have seen bodies and different people that saw caskets to the person who worked at the mortuary who was contacted, the funeral home that was contacted by the military and told to make small caskets. There was all this weird shit that goes together. Now, whenever you have a story like that that becomes a legend, for sure there's some fuckery involved, right?

There's got to be some shenanigans. Well, we know the Air Force lied initially. They've now admitted they lied. So, you know, there was... Let's explain that. So, Congressman Schiff of Arizona took up the case decades after the fact and asked the General Accounting Office to investigate. And they confronted the Air Force and did a lot of research. And the Air Force story that these were weather balloons crumbled. And the Air Force did a

deep inquiry of its own and produced a big book saying, I forget what the title was, but essentially they were saying it was actually a classified experiment that was designed to detect nuclear explosions in the Soviet Union so they admitted that their first story was a lie and their new story was well it really was balloons but they weren't weather balloons they were part of a top-secret experiment right so they've changed their story once and you know is that now the the true story or is it actually you know something else right and why would they change your story like what why did they change it why tell the public like what benefit could be gained from telling the public that the initial 1947 story was a lie

well i think they were trying to explain some of the discrepancies and hopefully this would put it to bed um maybe it's just the truth um i you know i don't know uh what the motive was behind it um if you're skeptical you would say it's a cover story they're trying to cover their tracks that's where i'm at i'm skeptical yeah i don't blame you we know they lied about it the first time well the first the report i don't know where the report came from, but it was reported in the Roswell Dilley record, right? That they had recovered a crashed flying saucer. Oh, it was actually reported more widely than that. I think it was like announced over the radio and across the country.

And then the next day they said it was a weather balloon. Right. And that's where, was that when Jesse Marcel says he was told to bring in this false debris and say that this aluminum foil and all this crap was from a weather balloon? That's right. And I will tell you, I've never said this before, but I've been told by multiple people who have credentials and access that there is some truth to these stories. So I don't discount this when people say this.

I've had people tell me, you know, people that have substantial scientific or military credentials that they believe is true. So I encourage people on the Hill to pursue it. They've got a task force going right now looking into this, trying to understand what's happening in these restricted military areas. If you're opening that up, ask all the tough questions. Ask about the military bases and the nuclear weapons. Ask whether there's anything buried somewhere, whether there's materials that we have. It's been a long time.

I think the people can handle it, the public. It's their government. It's their money. I say go for it. Let's find out the truth. Get to the bottom line. Where do you think that stuff could be? If they did really recover?

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we have a number of candidate places. So there's Area 51. There's Wright Path. There's Edwards. There's a whole lot of places, depending on what you were doing with it. If you wanted to just squirrel it away, there's some facilities not too far from here in the southwest that are you know, you suppose nuclear waste and other things So there's a lot of possibilities

But wouldn't you like who's got the key and who you know and that person's dead right? So we're talking about several generations like how do you get the golden key here? We got people from 1947 that were in the military and they were adults. Most likely dead now, right? Yep. Yeah, we're talking 70 years later. Not too many World War II vets around. Yeah.

So how does that torch get passed? And do they trot out new scientists occasionally when they've sufficiently compromised them on Epstein's Island? We have an amazingly dense, complex security apparatus. And it really, you know, some people say, oh, you can't keep stuff secret a long time. That's not true at all. We keep lots of stuff secret for decades. And, you know, there are reporters in D.C. that think they've got the inside track and they know most of the secret stuff people who think that are clueless they really have no idea yeah

i think it's pretty delusional to think the government can't keep secrets like a crashed ufo it's pretty delusional the f-117 and the and the b2 bomber you know when they rolled the f-117 out it was already operational up at Tonopah. And it was a mission-ready unit. They were flying. And the people were shocked all around the world. People had no idea. So this thing had been built. There were tens of thousands of people involved in the production, the design, the deployment. And, you know, there are many smaller things that would be much easier to conceal for a long time. What gets compromised and leaked is usually like foreign policy stuff.

And a policymaker can see that he can use his advantage in a debate over, you know, should we bomb around or something. And they'll leak that. But weapons program stuff almost never leaks. Why do you think that is? It doesn't have press value. It's often very technical. There's no advantage. And also, almost nobody knows about it.

The policymakers don't know about that stuff. So they're recipients of intelligence products and reporting. But even when I was in the government, people in the National Security Council and at that time the director of central intelligence, they didn't have access to the black programs at DOD. There was a case where I had a request from the National Security Council for access to some programs. I took it back to the building. They said no. That's the president's own staff. If the president wants it, we'll tell him, or maybe the national security advisor or something.

Which, was this Bush or Obama? This was Clinton, I believe. Because I think the staffer was a guy named Richard Clark, famous counter-terrorist advisor on the NSC staff, who was carried over. So at that point, possibly it was Bush. Clinton was trying to find out some information about UFOs, correct? Like there was publicly, he talked about it on a talk show, I believe. Yes. He has said that. I have no inside knowledge of what he has done or who he's asked, but I've heard that he did ask one of his confidants to dive into this.

Yeah, I wonder how much they tell the president. Because, like, you think, well, the president has access to all the information, and then you look at Trump, and you go, maybe not. Maybe they don't. They don't have access to anything close to all the information and they don't need it and they don't want it. Most of the secret stuff is not sexy or interesting or particularly noteworthy. Isn't that a flaw though in our system? I mean if that's really legitimately the commander-in-chief.

That's the commander-in-chief of the greatest army the world's ever known but you can't know a lot of shit. It's not that he can't and he can get briefed on anything he wants. ever known but you can't know a lot of shit it's not that he can't and he can get briefed anything he wants but he would spend the first he could spend the first six months doing nothing but looking at secret programs and getting briefed on them and it's just not worth his time to be getting briefed on yeah this is how we made the battle armor on the tank but let me ask you this you know if you were the president wouldn't that be the first thing you would ask? There is some stuff that I would immediately. What would you do?

Yeah. Immediately. Good question. So I'd want to get, I want to know the Department of Energy. I'd want to know all their special programs is one thing. I'd want to have a sit down with the director of operations at CIA. down with the director of operations at CIA. I'd want to talk to, I'd want to review the waived special access programs, section 119 of title 10 that most of Congress is exempted from reporting to. It's a very high category of, of DOD programs. There's some things like that.

There is a briefing the president gets, of course, shortly after being elected that covers a lot of the, you know, strategic nuclear warfare, some of the key top secret things that he really needs to know, has to know, should know. And then, you know, there's a category of things that are like, should we tell him or not? Yeah. You know, I mean, there's too much stuff, obviously, to convey. So they've got to pick and choose. Some things are no-brainers. Other things are judgment calls. What do you think the DOE could be working on?

Well, in some cases, a lot of what they're doing is good stuff. They're trying to secure the weapons stockpile, and they're trying to make sure that now that we're not testing anymore, will these things still function as they were designed? And they could do incredible computer modeling and that kind of thing. But, you know, DOE's got its hands in a lot of different areas in terms of power and production and other kinds of things. And I'd be very interested to know, they don't seem to get much oversight, unlike the Defense Department and the intelligence community. They have a lot of oversight from Capitol Hill, for example. DOE, I don't think, necessarily discloses its black programs to its oversight committee,

the Energy and Public Works Committee. I don't know how that works over there. I'm not sure they get the same. I don't think they get the same level of review. How are they incentivized to innovate? Well, they've got to, you know got to, you know, as they operate kind of in secrecy. Yeah. A lot of what they do is not all the R&D is in secret. They're doing a lot of good stuff related to energy and power and solar power and stuff that's public, open source.

It's really mostly nuclear weapons related stuff that is secret, that is really, really close hold. But that can cover a lot of grounds. There's been a lot of innovation. That's an example where, no, the public doesn't know, shouldn't know. We wouldn't want that information to be released, a lot of the details of that. It wouldn't be in our interest, the public's interest. And there's a lot of stuff going on there. And it was, for me, the one sort of pie that I didn't have a lot of deep access to. I had some access to those programs, but I had a much more prolonged and intimate relationship with the defense and intelligence community. with the defense and intelligence community. Now, if you became president and you wanted to find out more information

about UAPs or UFOs or whatever you want to call them, how would you go about doing that? That's an interesting question too because- Where would you start? Yeah, because it's so convoluted, these things. I would start at the agency and the Air Force. That's where you're most likely to find these things. If there's a program like that, that's most likely where it is.

And how would you even get to the right person? Because the number of people that have all the information has to be pretty small. So you'd have to be really careful about who you have lunch with. Yeah. When you've worked in the field a long time, you get some ideas of where to go and who to talk to. You think you've got an idea of who to go and who to talk to? Yeah, I have some ideas.

Yeah? Yeah. I know where a lot of the budgets are. Imagine walking around. Imagine walking around with that information, though. Imagine being a guy who's walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert there's a UFO that definitely came from another planet. It's being guarded 24-7.

And if the public saw it, it would shatter their belief in reality. Yeah, crazy. I'll tell you a story that you can judge how it compares. But this is something that happened to me in real life that was crazy. So I was one of the handful of people who was told there's a nuclear weapon in New York. It's going to go off in the next few days, we think. And there's another unlocated. We think it's heading to D.C., which is where I was living with my family. So I'm walking around for days, you know, running to people in the street, my

neighbors, how you doing? You know, get the hell out of here and you're not supposed you can't tell any tell anybody anything i had my family quietly you know relocate but um turned out the source thankfully was wrong but it was one of those kind of situations where you're aware of something or the possibility of something that is going to just freak people the hell out if they found out about it for good reason. It was a very surreal experience. Jesus. Yeah, that always begs the question, like, if you knew that something was going to happen

that was going to destroy the country, what do you do? You can't even tell anybody. Like, what's the point? Like, if an asteroid's coming here, it's going to land smack down in the middle of Chicago. Well, see, that was an interesting case there, right? Because they didn't warn New Yorkers to evacuate. Why didn't they do that? Because they didn't want to panic?

I think they made a decision that the panic would be awful and there'd be casualties, and they didn't have certainty that it was there. But that would be a terrible policy decision to have to make. Do we tell people to evacuate or not? If you tell people to evacuate, there's probably going to be incredible panic and all kinds of not just disruption,

but people are going to get hurt and probably some people are going to die in a panic like that. What do you do if a UFO is coming? What do you do if a UFO is coming? Like what do you do if they? Spotted something they've got some sort of satellite image of some mothership That's 15 football fields long that it's headed our way. Do you even bother telling anybody? Do you let it just show up? There's no protocol for that that I know of I I would think you would want to try to establish communications

I think if we actually got to the point of saying, yeah, we're monitoring things now, we're seeing where they're coming into orbit, we're seeing where they're dropping down from orbit, and we're seeing this pattern. These are ships, they are craft, they're vehicles, they're intelligently controlled. What do you do about it? One of the things you might want to do is try to establish some kind of communication yeah um i'm sure you're aware of uh the astronomy professor from harvard the chief of astronomy dr avi lobe and his uh assessment of that object that went through our solar system that he believes it's extraterrestrial in origin that it's 91 a disc 91 possibility that some sort of a disc that it's extraterrestrial in origin, that it's 91% a disk, 91% possibility that it's some sort of a disk, that it's 10 times more reflective than any other object like

it that we've ever spotted in the solar system, and that it's moving far too fast away from the sun for it to be something that is, that it's not affected the way we would expect it to be by the sun's gravity. It seems to indicate that it's something affected the way we would expect it to be by the sun's gravity. It seems to indicate that it's something of extraterrestrial origin. What do you think of that? It's interesting. I have read that since then an alternative has been identified that many scientists think clears this up, that explains those anomalies, and he identified a number of anomalies.

explains those anomalies, and he identified a number of anomalies. One of the things I found interesting, though, about it is here's an object, maybe discarded, maybe it's just an artifact, a solar sail that somebody didn't need anymore, and it fell into orbit around our sun. But if it was some kind of a craft, as some people theorized. Think about how inefficient that is compared to a probe in our atmosphere, compared to these things that we're seeing routinely. This thing passed, you know, it may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to get here. And would you want to design and build something that after traveling for hundreds of thousands of years, it spends a few days at a great distance from interesting planets and just kind of whizzes by and then it's gone.

Well, isn't it possible that this is one, like, look at what we're doing on Mars, right? We have this drone that's buzzing around on Mars and the rover. Isn't it possible that this is like an early stage intergalactic spaceship that's now just filled with skeletons? It's possible. What I think is interesting, though, is we have this very persuasive and compelling evidence of intelligently controlled vehicles in our atmosphere that are actually maneuvering, which this thing was not, and are behaving in ways that you might expect a probe from somewhere else to behave,

including the fact that it's doing radical things we don't understand that seem like magic. So if you apply that logic to, say, the Nimitz case, I think it's even stronger. I think it's harder to explain the Nimitz case than it is Oman Omana. Yeah. Oman Omana, though, what my take on it is like, you know, you could go to someone's barn and find a Model T. Or you could drive down the road and see a Tesla. You know, there are various stages of technological evolution. Just because we have these amazing things like that Tic Tac that are somehow or another here and operating, it doesn't mean it's something else. I mean, if we're right about the amount of Goldilocks planets that are out there and we're right about the infinite scope of the universe, it's possible there's a shitload of civilizations.

We can't compare their technology. It's almost like comparing the technology of human beings on the same planet to people that live on like North Sentinel Island, right? The people that are isolated, the small band of human beings that live in this uncontacted tribe. If we go to- Oh, yeah. On the Andaman Sea.

Yeah. So compare them to people who live in Los Angeles. It's kind of silly, right? He makes a compelling case for that. in Los Angeles. It's kind of silly, right? He makes a compelling case for that. It is bizarre that the shape of it and the luminosity and so forth.

NASA has now, and Congress has agreed that they should begin looking for things like that, techno signatures, evidence of alien technology. And this is another one of these ironies that NASA has said in Congress said yeah That's entirely possible. You should go look at that stuff, but oh my god if it's in our atmosphere if it's if it's that close No, that's crazy Right even though it's happening. You know right military's encountering these things and we're getting movies of them and radar tracks

You can't it's very difficult to get anybody to take that seriously and to get interested and get involved. Even when they look at video. There's a weird video. I don't even know if it's legit, but it's a weird video of a thing in our upper atmosphere. It's moving, and then it takes a very hard angle turn away. Have you seen that thing before?

I'm not sure which one. There's so many out there, and that's a common kind of occurrence these right angle turns you know yeah that's the thing it's like it's almost impossible with art it's impossible like there's nothing we have that can move like that no way and you know the high speed yeah you'd have to imagine it's either faked like some faked footage that shows these things because for sure there's a lot of fake stuff you know there was that one guy uh from

was it denmark where was that guy one there was one guy from another country that made a lot of fake ufo footage oh probably the swiss yes guy yeah yeah yeah he's kind of hilarious yeah there's a number of these fabricators and of course they've polluted the whole space. Yeah. I know some guys that are trying to create an AI capability that'll screen all these videos for signs of manipulation, being hoaxed, et cetera, so you can have a better sense of confidence

in the ones that get through that process. Yeah. Because there's so many out there, and some of them could be really interesting, but you have no way of knowing what credibility to attach to them generally. Are there any ones from other countries that you find credible, like videos, footage? Wasn't there some images or video that was taken over Mexico City? Wasn't there something?

There is an interesting one for the Mexican military. Don't know much detail about that. I've seen it. There have been a lot of sightings in Mexico and in South America. There was a sighting off the coast of Chile, which I think they found an explanation for. It was apparently a drug plane that was exuding a lot of its fuel, probably because it was trying to disguise its location or, I don't know, change directions or something. It looked very weird when you saw the original video. I think that was explained. The Brazilians have tons of video. I haven't seen much of it. I know that

they've collected a great deal of information. They've had some incidents like we did in 52 where the capital of the U.S. was being overflown. They called it the night of the UFOs, and they had like 23 different UFOs being seen and multiple fighter jets in the air. And, you know, this is going on all over the country, front page news. So there is some other video evidence out there for sure. There's some video that we haven't released that we have that I've seen. What have you seen? One of them, I've seen a few of them, and until the Defense Department releases it, I can't say too much about it, even though it's not classified. But they haven't released it yet.

But I will say there are some more videos like the ones that have been released that they've authenticated. Do you believe that the Defense Department is going to eventually release this video that you've seen? I hope so. I don't see why they shouldn't. They've only, national security has only been benefiting from this, right? This was a problem that was being ignored, a very real problem, a problem that should concern everybody. How many Americans would believe that we've got craft violating our airspace routinely in military airspace? I mean, most of us tend to think that, you know, we're America, we're the alpha, we're the top dog, our airspace is secure, we got it locked down, no way anybody's

going to come sneaking in here. Well, to find out this is going on, not like occasionally, but routinely. Yeah. Even around military facilities and bases. That's shocking. It's not good. And, you know, it's hard to get traction, though. When that story appeared in the New York Times, I was stunned to learn that almost nobody in Congress asked for a briefing. Really? Yeah. Here's this front page story with videos. You can see the UFO for yourself. You can hear the pilots and they're clearly amazed at what they're looking at. They

have no idea what it is. And you think the oversight committees would go, what the hell is going on here? I want a briefing on that. Yeah. Jamie, find the go fast video and play that because that's the best one to hear the pilot's reaction because they're watching this thing shoot across the surface of the ocean. And that was released in the Washington Post a few months after the other two that were in the New York Times. But it's a good video and it's been authenticated by the Defense Department. It looks like a Tic Tac. Yeah, but it's moving at a much more reasonable rate of speed. Much more reasonable.

What did they estimate the speed at? You know, I've seen different estimates, and there's one debunker who's made a strong case that it's going like 130 miles an hour. Could be right, but he claims it's a balloon. Oh, is that Mick West? Yeah. Yeah, Mick West debunks everything. Yeah.

That motherfucker doesn't believe shit. His debunkings are more elaborate than alien theories. He's got civilian airliners on their sides without transponders and restricted airspace with three other things happening at the same time. His take on the Tic Tac is pretty silly. Yeah. He doesn't... What bothers me most is- He hasn't taken into account all the evidence.

He has no regard for military personnel and their experience with these sensors and these aircraft and what they were seeing and reporting. And the tracking systems. He just discounts these people. He's never been in one of these planes. He's never operated these sensors. And he just dismisses these people. And that bothers me.

Yeah, he's an odd duck. Nice guy, though. You got it? I don't know. Let's see. You don't know? Yeah, that's it. That's not our LLS though, is it?

It's not. I do. That's the gimbal. No, that's the gimbal That's not our LLS though, is it? That's the gimbal. I was trying to find the other one. The go fast one, did you just google go fast? 100%. Just go fast. Is it all in the same video maybe? Maybe. Could be. Yep, that's it.

That's it. Oh, got it! Woohoo! Woohoo! Roger. They're shooting. What the? What the?

Did you box with a target? No, I took an auto-trike. Oh, okay. Oh, my gosh, dude. Wow. What the heck? What the heck? What the heck? What the?

What the? So that is them trying to figure out what the fuck that is. And by the way, this is a segment of a longer video. I've suggested to some of my friends on the Hill that they ask the department to release the rest of the video. Why not? It's already part of it's out there. They've acknowledged that this is for real,

and they've also acknowledged that there was no compromise. It wasn't classified. So why not release the rest of it? And that might help us resolve some of these ambiguities. Because if that makes a right angle turn, that's not a balloon, obviously. Well, the way that thing's moving, to think that's a balloon seems pretty silly. It's like it's on railroad tracks. I mean, it's just like.

It's flying. Yeah. And it's really true. It's straight. It's not wobbling or being buffeted by the wind. No, that would have to be the most fucking insane wind of all time, like a tunnel wind. But just the fact that it looks like it's not wiggling at all.

It's moving through some method of propulsion that can't be determined because it's not giving off a heat signature. And, I mean, to say it's only 150 miles an hour like maybe but why would that freak out pilots who go way faster than that i mean they can go supersonic and they're watching this thing and they're freaking out and laughing like look at that thing go like come on they're weirded out by it obviously and they're probably being vectored to it by somebody it sounds to me like they've been looking for it and somebody's been saying it's, hey, it's down here. You know, go to this place and you'll find it.

And then these guys finally get on it and somebody gets a lock on it. Yeah. And you can hear that amazement in their voice. So there's a lot more information about that incident and these others, which isn't in the public domain. I've been urging the Defense Department to put more of that out there and ask, you know, suggesting to the committees they might want to, they asked the department to do that. I don't see any reason not to. An informed public is in our best interest. It's in our best national security interest. And yet the overwhelming default value in the Pentagon is, you know, don't talk about anything, don't share anything. Even though they can see in a case like this, until that information got out, nothing was

happening. And now we've finally getting some attention on a serious national security problem, which wouldn't have happened if the information hadn't gone public. And, you know, why not make more information public if it's not classified? There's no sources and methods issue that you're going to compromise. You're not revealing some super hidden capability that needs to be protected. Why not put that out and help inform people? And it's their country. It's their homes, their livelihood, their government. And ultimately, how does Congress make decisions about how to allocate resources

if they don't have the information of what's going on and what the possible threats are? None of this information was getting to Congress. So there was no opportunity for them even to take any action. They were completely kept in the dark on this until 2017. That's pretty crazy. I couldn't agree more. What video that you've seen is the most compelling that's been released? And have you seen anything that hasn't been released that's more compelling? One of the ones that hasn't been released is got more emotional impact, certainly. Can you give us a tease? The UFO is going really close to this guy, and he's freaking out for good reason.

But that doesn't mean that the object was necessarily super advanced craft. He's going so fast. Maybe it was actually moving slowly and hanging there, and he went by it super fast. Maybe it was actually moving slowly and hanging there and he went by it super fast. But his perception was that something was coming real fast at him and going right between him and another guy. And it's all unclassified stuff, but it doesn't resolve any of these issues, but it's pretty compelling. There's something like that along those lines. The Navy has admitted there was a near midair collision safety report was filed. Uh, that's all public information. Uh, and I think, you know, again, it's frustrating to see this, this attitude of, you know, we've got to lock everything down.

We've got to classify everything right away. even if it's a guy with an iPhone. And, you know, it's not a secret sensor or anything. You don't have to worry about the source, you know, because an informed public, more of the scientific community will get involved. They'll bring more expertise to bear and people have better assessed this issue and whether something needs to be done about it. Because right now, almost nothing is being done about it. They've got a tiny task force with a few guys who are trying to collect information and write a report for the Senate. And I think what's going to be significant about it is it's due next month. They're not going to be able to say what Project Blue Book said, which was there's nothing really happening here.

There's nothing of national security interest. There's no advanced technology that's beyond what we have. Blue Book said both of those things. It said not only is it not ET, but we don't see any mysterious technology and we don't see any reason to be concerned from a national security standpoint. I don't see how this report can say any of those things. So I think when that, you know, assuming they do deliver the report and they acknowledge that this is happening, it's continuing to happen. They have other classified information that should be weighed

and factored into their unclassified judgment and report that's released. They won't give the details, but the people that write the assessment of this should have the knowledge of that. And I think if they do a straight-up job, they're going to have to acknowledge that there are indications of technology more advanced than anything we possess. And that there is a legitimate national security issue. So that one video that flies very close to the pilot, that's the one that you find to be the most compelling? That has the most, I think, emotional impact on people. I think the gimbal video, when you understand that there's a second fleet of UFOs that are maneuvering near those guys. In addition to what you're seeing there and the pilot's reaction and maneuvering, that's probably the most compelling.

The FLIR video that we haven't talked about much does show this instantaneous acceleration, which is another thing that we don't have. We can't do. We don't have anything that can sit there hovering and then just suddenly, you know. And the FLIR video was the one of the Tic Tac, correct? That was the Tic Tac, correct. Let's see if we can find that. F-L-I-R, correct? Correct. What does that stand for?

Forward Looking Infrared Radar. Okay. And this is, again, this is after Commander Fravor had spotted the thing. Correct. So this is it. There's two aviators in those F-18s. There's a pilot and a weapons system operator behind him, and there were two F-18s that saw the Nimitz with two people in them.

So that's four aviators all seeing the same thing in perfect conditions. And they're toggling through different methods of viewing this thing to try to get a better perspective, a better view of it. Yeah, and he's been following what was going on earlier in the day and wanted to go out and try to get on this thing. You know, gung-ho Navy pilot. And all of a sudden it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore. All of a sudden, it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore. So what we're watching, for folks who are just listening,

is he's toggling also from looking at it in what looks like 1x, and then he goes and zooms in occasionally. He's going back and forth. What is he doing here? He's trying to get a lock on it, and that will enhance his ability to track it. And he's not able to do that. His system is not able to get a lock, so he keeps trying. And then, whoop, all of a sudden, he just kind of—

Yeah, that's bananas. All of a sudden, he just kind of, you know— Do we have any estimation of how fast it was going when it did that? We do. We're talking thousands of miles an hour um the scientific coalition for ufo research has a website and they did a very uh deep analysis mathematical engineering guys um on the momentums the g-forces the speeds and they're all crazy i mean some of the g-forces they're g-ces, if the speed estimates are right,

that are probably five times greater than anything we've ever built could withstand. I mean, it would just shred any aircraft, any missile, any rocket that we've ever built. They're so far beyond the design tolerances and limits of systems that we make that it's crazy. So that image or that video alone is probably to you the most compelling? I think actually the most compelling case is the Nimitz case because you have so many witnesses and so many sensors and the FLIR is part of that. But you really have to look at the whole case. You have to talk to all the pilots involved, which I've done. You have to talk to the radar operators on the Princeton.

There's also radar operators on the E2C Hawkeye, which was up there monitoring this, getting sporadic hits. And then you have this third F-18 that goes up and takes that video so there's a lot of different information from a lot of different sources and the thing is it's all perfectly congruent it all hangs together nobody's contradicting anybody else's story and what people are seeing is what the sensors are reporting so that case overall is really the most compelling to my mind. It's just such a strange occurrence when all those pieces align together like that too, right? Where you have the Nimitz, you have Commander Fravor, you have the other ship and all this information about this one thing that they track on this one day, and then they say they've encountered multiple ones of those over the last few weeks.

You're talking about during the Nimitz round? Yes, they were tracking numerous objects that were moving off the coast of California and the coast of Mexico. They were descending from probably the sort of maximum detection range of the Aegis cruiser there, which they were seeing some of these things starting to appear in their radar at like 80,000 feet. They have a low radar cross section, so most conventional radars couldn't even track them, certainly not at any kind of distance. So, you know, you don't know how high

were they coming down from. They picked them up at 60, 80,000 feet, but where did they start? What was their initial entry point into the atmosphere if they were exo-atmospheric at some point? But we don't know that, but we do know that they came in at very high altitudes and then were able to drop, you know, like down to 20,000 feet in a matter of, you know, like a split second, dropped down to 50 feet when Dave Fravor appeared on the scene later. That craft was hovering at 50 feet over the ocean. So they have this incredible performance range.

There seems to be unlimited time on station. They don't seem to be running out of fuel. They seem to be able to just go all day, which, of course, our aircraft are not able to do at these insane speeds and maneuver unlike anything that we know of or understand. And no heat signature. No heat signature, no wings, no exhaust, no air intake. You know, what is its means of propulsion? Right. If there's no air intake, there's no exhaust, there's no heat signature,

and it's going supersonic without making sound. So there's some theories about that which are not validated yet. There are attempts to explain that by manipulating space-time in the immediate vicinity of the craft. That could potentially explain how the contents could survive the G-forces because they wouldn't be subjected to them and why they wouldn't uh it wouldn't make sound is it make a shock wave is it across the sound barrier and lots of other um factors associated with this phenomenon there are some plausible explanations explanations consistent with science as we understand it but it's it would be really exotic technology and way beyond anything that we even have on the drawing boards and

so by saying that it manipulates space-time is there any theory of how something like that could be constructed, something that could manipulate space-time? Yes. There's something called an Alcubierre drive. And this is a physicist who developed a theory. It requires insane amounts of energy to do it. But it would enable, in theory, if you could construct something, a device that could do that, to essentially cause this object to act like it was falling. And so the people on board, if there were people or whatever's on board,

wouldn't feel those radical G-forces, and the object would slip through the atmosphere. Instead of penetrating through the atmosphere, it would be more like the atmosphere was sort of in front of it, was opening up as it moved along. Now, there was a paper that I saw just a couple of weeks ago that challenges that theory. So perhaps that particular theory is no longer in good stead

in the physics community, but there are some alternative theories along those lines. And, of course, there's just so much we don't know. So what we do know is what we're observing. And that's really the key is, and that's part of the problem with this debate is we've got to start with the facts. The theories have to be consistent with the facts. The facts don't have to be consistent with the theories. So I mean, you know, we work in that direction. We take the facts and we try to come up with hypotheses consistent with that. But too many people look at this and say,

well, it can't be this and it can't be that, so the facts are wrong. You know, this is what some of the debunkers do. They start with the premise that it couldn't possibly be any of those things, so he must have been seeing a bubble on his windshield. And these guys were having a mass delusion windshield. And, you know, these guys were having a mass delusion. And oh, by the way, the radar operators were mistaking some weather

inversion. And, you know, they just keep adding on as necessary new conditions, which they have no evidence or proof of. None of these things have been identified by anybody. None of the debunkers have said you know it turned out that was United Airlines flight blah blah blah or it was this boat or that but somebody's drone right these things all remain unidentified well whatever that is the way it moves off like that in in that video in the flare video like Try explaining that. Right. Chad Underwood, I've heard him on a podcast,

described that event. And I actually sent it around to some people because he debunks the debunkers. He's got thousands of hours of cockpit time, knows those systems, knows those aircraft. He says, you know, that was instantaneous acceleration. ifs ands or buts and there's no way that was any kind of conventional aircraft out there and when you hear the guy talking about firsthand about his experience I find that generally with these pilots when you sit down with them face to face you know they're not bullshitting you it's

really clear they're being candid and their emotions are honest and they're befuddled like the rest of us. That propulsion system, the way you described it by manipulating space-time, isn't that exactly what Bob Lazar said propels these spaceships that he was working on? Yeah. Don't you think that's kind of interesting? I understand it. It's been a long time since I've looked at his theory, but I think you're right. I think that is what he claims the propulsion system does. But that wasn't really a public theory in 1989, was it? I don't know when the Alcubierre drive theory was published. I don't know for sure.

But there were other people speculating along those lines i believe at that time about propulsion systems like that and this idea of this element 115 being this an incredibly dense but stable uh element that doesn't really have a real evidence of this until what was like 2013 or something along those lines there was there was something that he um he did raise that issue and it wasn't till long afterward that that scientists discovered that i guess that there is uh it is possible for it to be stable for some brief period of time which I think before they thought you just couldn't right couldn't bring it together but it was just detected in a particle drive

for the first time in the 2000s correct that sounds right yeah yeah so when he talked about it in 1989 it was it fear theoretical back then I think it was it theoretical back then i think it was purely theoretical i don't think anyone but it was discussed theoretically that there was an element i believe so so it was sort of like i'm not absolutely certain about that it was sort of like the higgs boson or something like that something that they a theoretical particle theoretical idea What about life forms? What are your thoughts on not just drones, but alien life forms? Do you, I mean, have you ever heard any compelling stories about some biological thing from another planet, whether it's a dead thing or a living thing that it's been observed or that's been obtained?

I've heard a lot of stories. I bet you have. It's so frustrating in this field because it's so hard to get to the bottom of these. And undoubtedly, many of them are not true. They're legends. But there are some that come from, say, like a foreign military that really make you wonder why would they invent this and be claiming this. Maybe it's some guy off his rocker but there are some examples like that that that do get your attention that cause you to to think maybe there's something to this

what has been the most interesting story that you've heard there was um there there are a number but one of them involved a foreign military that had several different interactions and incidents. They had some military officers that allegedly had some contact. And a very senior officer allegedly, there was a location, according to this report, where a UFO was appearing sort of nightly. And he went out there with some of the guys. And on the second or third night, this thing, low and hold, did appear. And he had some interaction with it, supposedly. And he describes this and describes communications he received. But there's no independent corroboration of it.

What about a body? I've heard the rumors like everybody else. I don't know anything about that. I know that people claim that they've seen those things. Nothing beyond that. Yeah, imagine. Come here, man. I want to show you something you know the story about uh Nixon and Jackie Gleason I do yeah that's a great one isn't it yeah there's some and there

are other stories tell me the story tell me the story well as I recall you probably know it better than I do but but as I recall uh Nixon confided in Gleason that, yes, indeed, we have aliens. And he arranged for Jackie Gleason to actually go to a facility and see this body or something. I think it was actually a craft. A craft. Okay. You know the story better than I do. Why don't you go ahead?

And then Jackie Gleason actually built a house that was shaped like a UFO. And I think the house was for sale at one point in time. Do you remember that house, Jamie? We found it online. And you look at it, you go, holy shit. Like, he built a UFO house. Was that in Palm West, Palm Desert? I do not remember.

We'll find out shortly. But this house, at one point in time at least, was for sale. And my wife would never let me buy something like this. But if I was a single man and I was young and stupid, which I used to be, I would have bought the shit out of that fucking house. To have Jackie Gleason's UFO house, that's it. Oh, is that it?

Yeah. Okay, that's not what I was thinking of. Yeah, he built a house that looked like a UFO inside of it. Apparently he was obsessed, and I'm obsessed with Jackie Gleason. I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan. Yeah. Where was this thing? It was in New York, I think.

Yeah. Westchester County. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's some comedy that still would work today. Recently for sale. Yeah. $12 million.

How long ago was this? 2018. No shit. Damn. I don't want to live in New York, but if I did. He built that in 1959. Is that what it said? 59.

So Nixon wasn't even president. Look at the neighbors. I wonder what they're thinking about that. Maybe he added on. Let me see. Maybe. They're horrified. Maybe they just fucking pumped and lived near Jackie Gleason.

Well, yeah. When he was there, I horrified. Maybe they just fucking pumped and lived near Jackie Gleason. Well, yeah. When he was there, I'm sure. It was a wild ass house. But the fact that he built a wooden house that reminded him supposedly of this UFO. I mean, who knows? I mean, it could have been an architect who said, hey, I got an idea. There's a story like that about Spielberg. Have you heard that?

No. With, I think, Ronald Reagan. And it was one of his iconic alien movies. And Reagan sort of quipped to him something like, yeah, you know, it's really true. Or we really have those things or something like that. Really? Yeah, one of these legendary conversations. But maybe in the circles you move in, you could find out.

I don't know, dude. I don't know if they trust me. Did somebody bought this house in 1976 for $150,000? Wow. That seems crazy. I know. I don't know. That seems crazy.

Well, what was $150,000 in 1976, though? It was probably worth a lot of money. $100,000, that was probably close to a million, right? Still. I know, still. Yeah. A house that's that dope that used to be jaggy gleason's house yeah yeah i agree his uh his comedy probably would translate today the honeymooners

it's probably one of the most if you watch that show today it's still very funny i would love for my kids to see that yeah i think it would still work for him he's also probably the very best pool player uh celebrity pool player of all time that's why they used him in the hustler uh with with paul newman he's he was a legitimate like top flight pool player yeah spent a lot of time brilliant guy yeah brilliant guy interesting yeah just like to get drunk funny as hell yeah and was always drunk oh is that right oh yeah yeah that was his whole thing, man. He loved getting hammered.

He was hammered all the time. There's a funny video of him when he's older on a golf course, and he's got this crazy souped-up golf cart with a bar in it. You know? He's out there golfing and drinking. Living the big life. Yeah. Living large.

Yeah, he was a character. Yeah. Here's the story about Chuck Gleason. Okay, there it is. Legend has it that Nixon and Gleason drove to a heavily guarded building on Homestead Air Force Base where the leader of the free world gave the guy who played the bus driver from Bensonhurst a private tour. We drove to the very far end of the base in a regulated and segregated area, finally stopping near a well-guarded building, Gleason told

UFO researcher and author Larry Warren, an eyewitness to the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident, according to the book UFOs Among the Stars by Timothy Green Beckley. The security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure. There were a number of labs we passed through. First, before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer enclosed in several large cases. Next, we went to an inner chamber and there were six or eight of what looked like glass-topped coke freezers. Inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children. Then, upon closer examination, I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old. Most of them were terribly mangled

as if they had been in an accident. Jackie Gleason's wife, Beverly Gleason, told the same story to the magazine Esquire in 1974. It was passed off as a publicity story for her then-upcoming autobiography. Talk about the house he made, which was somewhere else maybe, I don't know. It says Gleason's 50-foot-wide mothership house was custom-made by shipbuilders in an airplane hangar and moved to Gleason's property.

The structure has no right angles. Van Tassel's Integratron? What is that? Integratron. Was built in the Le Havre Desert because of its proximity to the magnetic vortices and the relationship to the Great Pyramids.

Okay, you lost me there. Getting nutty. They always get nutty. That's the thing about UFO stuff. That's one of the problems with thisids. Okay, you lost me there. Getting nutty. They always get nutty. That's the thing about UFO stuff. That's one of the problems with this issue. It just goes off the deep end so fast. Always, right? Always.

I have tried to keep it on national security and kind of nuts and bolts stuff. Stay away from the paranormal stuff. It's hard. It is hard because it goes there fast. Yeah. A lot of the people that believe in... That was one of the things that Terrence McKenna had said about UFOs. It's not whether or not UFOs are real.

When you talk to someone and they believe in UFOs, ask them what they think about psychics. Ask them what they think about ghosts. And then you get these – and you go, oh, you're into weird shit. You're into things – you're into the unknown. Because the unknown is very compelling. And that's part of the problem is it's – there's there's again this part of the brain that lights up when you can find out things that we don't know to be true whether it's bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster or or UFOs just yeah a lot of people are drawn to this you know and again it's like religion you

know it's the mystery it's the wonder it's's the connection to something greater. People that are, you know, in the intelligence community, there was this remote viewing program. Yes. And some of those people are also people who are interested in this phenomenon and were involved in it. What's your take on that remote viewing stuff?

Well, you know, they seem to have some individuals, they claim, who could perform better than Chance and could do so consistently. Some of their research has been disputed. So I don't have a strong feeling, but I do know that some people have had some legitimately crazy experiences. The Skinwalker Ranch, there's some strange stuff being documented around there. There was strange stuff documented by Bob Bigelow before the present owner had it. If you read the book Paranormal, you'll hear about incidents that I have discussed with some of the protagonists in that book, and it's crazy stuff.

And they will look you right in the eye, people with PhDs, and they'll say, yeah, this guy came in the room, and we said, what are you doing in here? Because it's a classified facility. And the guy, big guy with one arm missing in a hook or something, and he wheels, turns goes out the guy who's telling the story runs up and grabs the door and opens it there's nobody in the hallway this figure looks exactly like supposedly the figure that someone had seen over their bed the

night before doe with this you know one-armed guy spinning around. And, you know, you say, well, this is insane. This is nuts. And these are all like sober DOE people who are telling stories like this and other scientists. So it's really crazy. It's wild. It's curious. It's intriguing. Some of these people have advanced degrees, and they tell far-out stories about some of this stuff. What about tangible things like metallurgy? What about samples of metal, like samples of various types of metals and combinations of metals? Yeah, now we're getting back to physical science

where we can get grounded and test something. Yeah, one-armed spinning guy, so I'm like, check, please. Yeah, Now we're getting back to physical science where we can, you know, get grounded. Yeah. One-armed spinning guys. I'm like, check, please. I understand. I get it. I felt the same way. But actually, it's funny you should mention that because there's a private researcher who you've had on the show, Dr. Jacques Vallée.

Yeah. Who has some materials. I think he is on the verge of – he's going through the peer review process and treating it like you would any other scientific issue. And I think he's going to be publishing in a peer review journal some interesting data before too long. I think he's been working on that for a long time. And there are – so there are some examples like that that are serious, incredible, and some of the materials seem to have properties that are difficult to explain that suggest that maybe they were engineered not at the molecular level but at the atomic level, which would be extremely difficult and expensive to try to replicate. He was saying that some of these samples, if you were to recreate them with the technology available today,

it would cost billions of dollars. Yeah. Which is insane. Exactly. So obviously nobody was doing that here. So where did it come from? There's also a discussion that the isotopic ratios of these materials

in some cases are sufficiently statistically different from what is found in nature in our solar system that it suggests they were born in a different Sun a different star and all the heavier elements are created in these solar explosions and supernovae that cram and fuse these L you know protons and neutrons electrons together and create the higher elements the heavier elements and if they were you know in our solar system they all came from one event and so iron wherever it is in our solar system will have a certain ratio of isotopes that have a few that have an extra neutron or,

you know, one more or one less kind of thing. So there's sort of a fingerprint with that. And supposedly, as I understand it, some of these materials have a different ratio than you would expect of metal found in our solar system. At least that's one of the things they're looking for and testing for. And then these composites, how do they refer to these composites? Like when they talk about the way these things are constructed, do they have a name for this type of a composite? Well, they're not all, I'm not sure they're all composites, but I've seen some of these materials and they look like they're – some of them look like they're layered.

Like they're micromachined to a millionth of an inch or a few hundreds of an inch or something layered on top of one another with exotic – fairly exotic metals, bismuth and other things that people aren't normally using. There it is. Yeah, there's one. Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s. So this is from Roswell, supposedly? Or some other craft? That's one theory.

So I think the story behind this is, if I'm not mistaken, is that somebody got this from their father who claimed he was at the site recovering material. So he gave it to the guy, and this guy turned it over to a researcher. That's the story I've heard. It says it's made from 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth, and 100 to 200 microns silver magnesium zinc alloy. Each of six pieces received from u.s army source were formed with a curvature that was that tapered huh yeah pretty curious stuff as far as i know nobody has

identified a conventional source for that material or use of it so it it's not like an alloy. It's a very intricate process. And what would be the benefit? Is there a theory on what the benefit of making things in so many layers would be? Well, supposedly, one theory about that material is that it is a wave guide for microwave radiation. So it can actually enhance microwave emissions. It could go right through the material. And if you were building a craft that was wanting to transmit or receive microwave radiation for some purpose, propulsion or otherwise, a material like that might help you accomplish that.

That's one theory I've heard. So the material might help accomplish this bizarre propulsion system that we totally don't understand. You could have a craft maybe that was also, the shell of the craft was also an antenna, perhaps. Or it was propagating radiation from the inside more efficiently. I don't know a lot about it, but that's one of the explanations that I've heard. Have you physically seen any of these scraps of metal? Yes, I have. What did it look like to you when you looked at it?

Curious and odd. It was silverish. you when you looked at it curious and odd it was silverish and um you know people were looking at it trying to think whether it could be from some you know known component to some aircraft or ship or something and nobody has identified a uh conventional industrial counterpart to it something that was manufactured to those specifications for some reason, as far as I know. So it was lightweight. It was peculiar. You touch it in your hands? I'm trying to remember if I touched that or not. I think we had it right on the table, so I probably did. When you say we, who?

So I probably did. When you say we, who? Well, at To The Stars, there was an effort to transfer some, have some of these materials tested and exploited. And we were purchasing, the company, not me, but the company was purchasing some of the materials to try to facilitate that. And so who was in possession of these materials that you could purchase them from? In some cases, I don't know about that piece. There were some people in the field who had been collectors or researchers and had some material just the way Jacques has probably got materials from 15 or 20 different materials, pieces from different alleged incidents.

One was an explosion of an object in Brazil for example so there are some there's some items out on the market that they're around not many but there are a few when you saw this stuff was that the most compelling piece of evidence that you had ever seen? No, I'm actually very agnostic about that. I think I haven't seen any test results. I'm completely agnostic as to whether it's something that was produced on Earth for some obscure reason, or whether it's something more exotic i'm not particularly impressed by that what impresses me most uh i think if i could point to one thing it would be the nimitz case really yeah there's just there's yeah that's that would be there's there's some other stuff that is interesting and impressive that is not yet available. But in terms of the stuff we can talk about, I would say that's the single most compelling thing.

Now, what can be done in terms of with the government? What can be done to study this stuff more carefully? Does a whole new department need to be developed? Does all these pieces of evidence, the Nimitz case, the GoFast video, the Gimbal video, all the stuff we're talking about, do you think this merits enough attention? Does this give enough people curiosity to the point where you could see them the government investing a considerable amount of capital and resources to studying this stuff on a much deeper level i do um i think advanced propulsion uh this suggests there may be some new avenues that uh because you know there's proof of principle. We're seeing something doing this.

It can be done. And there's some theories, as I mentioned, like the Acubierre Drive and others probably ought to be putting some money on those, investigating them, looking at them. I do think there needs to be some organizational home for this. There needs to be an advocate, somebody who is monitoring this and fighting for some money for it in the budget, doesn't need a huge amount, somebody to send the reports to. You know, people right now, they've temporarily got this task force that was established. But when that goes away, if there's not some enduring entity left behind, you know, where does all this stuff go? And does anybody care about it? Or does it just, do we go back to the status quo ante or, you know, where does all this stuff go? And does anybody care about it? Or does it just, do we go back to the status quo ante or, you know, it just falls on the floor and nobody cares?

So I think we're getting to the point, I hope we're getting to the point where people are saying, yeah, these are not, we can learn a lot from anomalies in science. That's one of the ways breakthroughs most often occur, right? Is some anomaly that is baffling uh like the procession of mercury in einstein and newton's theories couldn't explain that it's this weird outlier and then he came along with general relativity perfectly explained it bingo there's some strange anomalies going on here in our atmosphere worth our attention and yes we ought to be studying it and there ought to be a centralized place where this stuff comes together and uh you And maybe a federal lab kind of a thing. I'm not an advocate of big new organizational structures and throwing billions of dollars at things.

I don't think you need to, but I think we could more effectively coordinate space-related research, for example, in R&D than we do today. So we have DOE labs for nuclear energy and nuclear power. We don't have something like that that universities and NASA and the military can work with on the space side. So something like that that was flexible, that would give people a chance to partner from different backgrounds and academia and so forth with the government is probably something that we could benefit from. Is this something that's plausible? Is there enough interest in the government currently to do something like this, to make

some new department? I mean, could it be justified? Not a new department. No, not like the new Department of Energy or Agriculture. So it would be a part of something? Not a some new department? I mean, could it be justified? Not a new department, not like, no, not like the new Department of Energy or Agriculture, not a whole new department. No, this would be within existing entities. Which entity do you think? Probably DOD. There's already so much capability and authority and responsibility there. And there are some people in the community that are standing up actually saying they want to be involved. There are some people in the military, in the Defense

Department, that would like to get involved in researching this. And how many people have to be involved to do it correctly? How many people do you think would have to be involved? Like, say if they put it on you. They said, listen, nobody knows more about this stuff than you do. How do you go about doing this? And how many people would need to be involved? And where do you start? And how do you observe these things? And could we be doing something to maybe observe more of them? Absolutely. Yeah. What could we be doing to observe more of them? So yeah, there's a lot we could do. And I don't have a precise number for people, but I could tell you some of the things I'd be thinking about wanting to scope

to drive a number. So one of the things we haven't done yet is go into these existing databases from these incredible collection systems, like the ballistic missile early warning system. And if they've seen UFOs, they're not reporting it, but their systems are optimized to look for very specific kinds of things, like an ICBM. And they want to reduce clutter, so the other stuff is not displayed to the operator. People in the ops center don't even see it, but it's in the database.

There's a lot of databases like that where if we just pulled the data and had some contractors run it, we might find some really interesting signatures and patterns, which would then help us get a handle on the phenomenon and where we ought to be looking going forward. So that would take some money to get some contractors to do that. There are a number of different systems that I would want to do that on. The space-based infrared system, the global acoustic monitoring system, some other systems. Global acoustic monitoring system? That would be, what would that be doing? So that is listening for low-frequency vibrations in the atmosphere.

And it was built and designed to detect nuclear weapons tests. And I understand that it also detects meteors and bolides. And I've heard rumors that it detects other things that they haven't been able to explain. I haven't been able to get anybody to take a look at that yet. I've suggested that to the to various people in the government. You know, you might want to go talk to those guys. Look at that database. I don't think anybody has.

But there's a lot of systems like that. They're incredible. We have the public. You know, look at the the moving X-band radar. If you could bring that up. Sea-based X-band radar, if you could bring that up, sea-based X-band radar or the DARPA space telescope. There's the DoD space fence. There's amazing capabilities out there.

We're not even mining that data. Do we know, has anybody ever said that these things make a sound? People have said they've heard humming sounds at close range, that kind of thing. But never a sonic boom. But no sound? Occasionally, sometimes it's like a swooshing sound.

I would say the sort of hum or vibration like a transformer. A number of people who've been close to these things have said it's made a sound like that, like a transformer. Did Bob Lazar ever say that it made a sound? I don't know. I don't know. I've not had that discussion with him. So that would be how you would use... But in this case, actually, it's the movement through the atmosphere it's not that it's not like the transformer noise

it's just the size and velocity in the air that's displaced creates this this wave in the atmosphere but that was what i was through the air asking because of this unusual propulsion system that it's that we theorize they have. Yeah, yeah. It might not make that kind of wave. It might not make any sound at all. You're right. You're right.

They might find nothing there. It's a good possibility. But my thought is we've paid for this stuff already. Why don't we look? We've got the data. Let's take a look. And these different databases. And then you might find, ah, this system and this system are showing us some

really weird stuff. And we see things in orbit and they're coming out of orbit and they're going back to orbit and we don't know what they are. We got to focus on that. That's really interesting. We could probably plausibly spend a reasonable amount of money and make a lot of headway and trying to identify what are the signatures that these things give off that we can then begin to track with this huge system that we have that's global and in outer space. Then I would want to spend some money on propulsion and probably have some money. You'd need some money for testing some theories. The nuclear weapons issue that you mentioned,

monitoring our nuclear weapons, if that's going on, and there are a lot of reports, supposedly in 1973, it's a story I just heard the other day from a foreign correspondent. During the 73 War, when we went to DEFCON 2, in Australia, a UFO appeared over a Navy communication system for submarine-launched ballistic missiles and just hovered for about a half an hour. Again, unverified, but this is the story. has any plausibility in these reports about interfering with RSAVMs, you might set up a collection event when you know we're going to be moving some things because it's a pre-planned exercise or something. So maybe you keep an eye out and set some special collection up just in case something does get triggered by that or happens. That would be pertinent to the Chinese and Russians as well. I mean, nothing would be higher on their collection list

than trying to understand any kind of new technology we had having to do with nuclear weapons. So you might learn something. Again, I'm not saying it's aliens. It would be worth doing. Do we know anything about the way China or Russia views these things? Not much. Both countries have active UFO groups, and the government seems to be connected to both of them and allowing them to exist and maybe encouraging them, probably getting some intelligence from them. They read our papers,

and they may well listen to this podcast, for example. They've got some people trying to figure out what's going on with the Americas. Have they really got this technology or is this from somewhere else? At least that's part of what appears to be happening. But they certainly have had their own incidents over the years. We've been told about that. One of the famous incidents that we had actually during Blue Book occurred in Russia. And it was a U.S. senator who was visiting Russia. And he and some of the staff while they were in Russia, it was one of the senators, it was a majority leader or speaker

of the House, very prominent U.S. politician who was on a rare Cold War visit to the Soviet Union and saw this flying saucer from the train he was on and other people there saw it. That was one that went into the Blue Book files. So they certainly have had incidents as well. So is there another country that has a strong interest in UFOs besides China and Russia that we're aware of? Yes. France has had an official UFO investigative group for probably decades. And small office, small budget, but they every year take, say, the top six cases from the police and the military and analyze them and bring in some scientists and engineers and see what they can make of that. So they've been doing that for a long time. And there have

been years where they've had more UFO reports, at least per capita, than we have. Really? Yeah. This is very much a global phenomenon. So they've been having these experiences for a long time since the 40s or 50s. And they have a more open-minded approach to it? They do. I would say the stigma that we have doesn't exist, at least to that degree, over there. They're more objective, scientific. Their UFO groups tend to be less fantastical and more sort of focused on science. Seems to be quite a bit of a different attitude and approach over there. So if the president had listened to this podcast and took an interest in this and wanted to have a conversation with you, what do you think you would tell him?

I would focus on how to get the answers to the key questions, how to get to the bottom line and the truth. Who you need to talk to, who you need to get on the carpet and put it to. And so you can really get to the bottom of this thing. And you think that we could make some progress in that direction if we took the right steps? I think certainly if we did some of the things I was talking about, we'd be better off. We'd gain some new knowledge and insight. Where that takes us is hard to say. It might, you know, different directions it could go, but we'd be better off for it.

Mining these anomalies can be very profitable. And I've suggested creating an office called the Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution. So when our increasingly technical intelligence community detects things that are really weird and anomalous, like this business of these beams that are, you know, we're hitting the people in the Havana embassy and you need some really smart technical people. You've got something just really weird. people you've got something just really weird you have a sort of group of scientists and engineers who are focused you can take these kinds of things too and they can figure out what to do with it or where to take it do they ever figure out what those beams in the Havana Embassy were no not to my knowledge and it's happened now recently in DC near the White House according to

some recent reports so you explain that to people? So what we're talking about is employees of the U.S. government in Havana, mostly, but elsewhere, in addition to Havana, have started feeling very ill, headaches, a range of symptoms, loss of energy, and it seems that they have been targeted with some kind of RF weapons, some kind of electromagnetic radiation from a distance. And we do know that the Russians in particular have been developing devices like that for decades, and they used to use them on our embassy in Moscow all the time for different kinds of collection purposes, different techniques. So that's suspicious. Cuba is a country where they could plausibly test something like that

and have a degree of deniability. They've got freedom of action down there. They're still one of the few governments that supports the regime there. So it's someplace they might undertake further testing in a real-world setting if they wanted to. It's something that could be mobile and not clear what the objective is, whether it's to make people sick or whether it's just incidental. They're trying to get stuff off the computers, and the people just happen to be close to the computers and they're trying to you know put a beam through there that scrapes energy off the screen

or something or you know we don't really know but it's there seems to be a pattern of this stuff my friend Mike's wick shout out to Mike's wick he used to work for the I think was the Service, and they had an embassy in Moscow, and they detected these devices that the Soviet Union had installed inside the walls that were listening devices that were powered by the movement of the building in the wind. Interesting. I remember- I don't know if that's true. That's what he told me. Does that make sense?

It does. He said it was so sophisticated, and it was so beyond anything that we had. When we were building the new U.S. Embassy. I hope I didn't fuck that story up, Mike. You told me it a long time ago. I know that we found antennas embedded in the concrete of the U.S. Embassy as it was being constructed, the new embassy,

that brought the entire construction to a halt. The thing, listening device, is this it? Yeah. Okay, what does this say? I've heard of it before. You've heard of it before? No, I think we've maybe talked, maybe that's why, because we talked about it on here.

Known as the Great Seal Bug, one of the first covert listening devices or bugs to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal was concealed inside a gift given by the Soviet Union to W. Averill Harriman, United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union, August 4th, 1945. Because it was passive, needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and activate, it's considered a predecessor of radio frequency identification technology. I don't think that's exactly what he was talking about.

He was talking about these bugs that were actually powered by, you know, and the wind moves, you know, like your watch. Well, kinetic energy. Yeah, you have a watch. It's an automatic watch. You move your watch, and that's what powers the watch. They've been exploring all kinds of things like that. And we actually, it cost the U.S. taxpayer hundreds of millions

because halfway through the construction of the new U.S. embassy, they found in the concrete forms antenna shapes that made no sense to us. We didn't know what the hell they were. And weird designs and shapes that were, they were intercepting some of our stuff and modifying it or using construction people outside of our supervision to do this. And they had other things with the pipes and the wires. You know, they had all kinds of attacks on the embassy. And some of it, you know, looked like physics that was hard for us to understand. So I'm not surprised by that story someone recently claimed that uh they that about the pyramid things that were flying over the ship that it was vlad that's there was uh some soviet

guy said it was vladimir putin's creations or you know from the soviet union he he has uh we have validated the fact that he has developed a nuclear missile that is kind of like imagine a nuclear cruise missile with incredible range and maneuverability. So that's something I don't know how much success they've had with it, but they really do have a project like that. And they have done some testing. So there have been some advances under his uh under his time there under his tenure but uh i don't know i don't think i've not heard anything about triangular objects no i'm sure it's vlad former senator says no question ufos buzzing over u.s warships are from russia the former senator senator condemns the Pentagon for admitting it cannot identify the strange object.

So this is a former U.S. senator. Oh, it's Harry Reid. Do you know Harry Reid? I do. Not well, but I do know him. So he believes that. And he's a big UFO supporter, right? He is.

A big believer. He is. He's tried to solve this problem from the congressional side in terms of the lack of interest of the U.S. government by putting some money on it, which created this AATIP program, the Advanced Airborne Identity Threat Program, Advanced Aerospace Threat Program. So he's been involved for a long time, been very curious about this, wanting to see some answers. He has been very active, extremely active. Well, Chris, this has been a very enlightening and interesting conversation. And I really appreciate your time. And I really appreciate your openness to discussing this stuff. Because I know

it does for a person that's a, you're a serious person. It does open you up to ridicule. person. It does open you up to ridicule. You know, in my community, I don't think there's any doubt that there are people making jokes about me behind my back and that kind of thing. But, you know, I knew that was going to happen going into this. And to me, there's a principle here, a very cherished principle. And I think you just have to do the right thing at the end of the day, which you believe in. Well, I also think there's enough evidence at this point in time and thankfully because of the New York Times article from 2017 it's loosened a lot of the stigma attached to it and a lot of this like we showed the gimbal the FLIR the GoFast video this is wild shit. And if we can't explain it

I mean you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. Amen. That's my view as well. Do you have any, I know you're no longer with To The Stars Academy, do you have any official role in this stuff anymore? Nothing official. I stay in touch with people and try to help when I can. And that's about it. All right, man. Well, keep us posted. And if any new information comes out and you want to break

it, you're always welcome. Okay. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you.