The Joe Rogan Experience - #1696 - Lex Fridman

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Lex Fridman is a scientist and researcher in the fields of artificial intelligence and autonomous vehicles, as well as the host of "The Lex Fridman Podcast."

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hey, I saw that box that you had on your Instagram. Is that a robot? Yeah, it's a robot. That's what it said, consciousness not included. I'm like, uh, I see what you're doing here. What's in the box?

What's in the box, man? What's in the box? That's a great movie, by the way. It's a great movie. It's a dark movie. Yeah. No, it's a legged robot, and I've been involved with those a lot recently, and I'm going to explore.

I was going to bring it here, but I thought this is the wrong. The other robot I have is the wrong atmosphere. Is it a Boston Dynamics one? So I had a lot of, I've been closely working with Boston Dynamics and how do I put it? I put a lot of my love into what they're doing for a few years. I love the engineers there. We're close. We like each other. But I hear a but comment. Let me politely say that, you know, they're also a company that are trying to make money. And so there's a marketing team, there's PR, and they're starting getting in the way of engineers.

And whenever marketing people get in the way of engineering, I'm out. And so there's a lot of robotics companies. It was kind of heartbreaking for me because how much I love that company. In what way did they get in the way? So very specifically, I'm interested in the problem of human-robot interaction, where there's this beautiful dance between a human and a robot. The same way you have a dog that you love playing with, there's a magic there. I don't know.

There's an excitement when Marshall looks at you and looks away and then looks at you again. And just that excitement, I want to understand how we can engineer that into our AI systems. So that's called human-robot interaction. From a perspective of Boston Dynamics, they want a machine that doesn't have anything to do with humans. They want a machine that patrols a factory looking for anything dangerous or does surveillance on a factory floor or helps in dangerous environments

where humans it's too dangerous for humans so you want a robot to do the work so that you want always there to be a distance between a human and a robot for me i'm interested in exploring when human and robot close together and i think that's actually really important to understand for safety as well so robots should be able to detect and predict the movement of humans really well in order to avoid hurting them accidentally. Like that's a robotics AI problem. It's predicting the movement of pedestrians, predicting the movement of humans, whether it's the human body or the human hand on the factory floor.

You have to understand the mind of humans. They don't move like billiard balls. They move in unpredictable, complicated ways, or rather predictable but complicated ways. And that's the problem of human-robot interaction, I think, is beautiful. Not very many people are really studying it carefully. And I wanted to study it carefully. One of the things I did, and you always learn this mistake the hard way, is I asked for permission on everything. The right way to do it is just to do it and apologize later. Permission for what kind of actions? So permission for the kind of things I wanted to do.

So I asked for permission to on video touch a spot. Touch it? Yeah, like as a human. So I wanted Spot to understand when a human touches it or not and using only vision, only camera. Right, because there's no sensors that can detect touch, right? Right. So have a sense where gestures and touch can be part of the communication between the robot and the human.

Telling them, the Boston Dynamics folks, that made them very nervous. They know I know what I'm doing, but they also know I'm starting to give less and less fucks. And they get nervous about that. Because they see the positivity. I love people. I love robots. I want to show the positive stuff. I want to inspire and educate the world.

But they're like, is there some evil thing he's going to do? What do they think you're going to do? Well, it's like they only have stuff to lose. Okay. From my perspective, I love Boston Dynamics. I want to show off some awesome stuff. It's probably one of the greatest engineering feats in the space of robotics ever, which is both Atlas, the bipedal robot, and Spot, the legged robots.

I don't know. From my perspective, it's a win-win. From their perspective, they got nervous. I don't understand why they would get nervous about touching the robot. That doesn't make any sense to me. Because they're a business, they're trying to sell a lot of robots to companies that have zero interest in touching. I think the future of their robot requires them to understand what it's like for a robot to be close to a human being. So you're looking at it in terms of like a consumer product?

It's like in the gray area between industry and consumer. So like, you know, a factory worker is a kind of consumer. So like more and more, I think Boston Dynamics need to pivot that way in order to be a successful, profitable business. They were currently purchased by, I think, Boston Dynamics need to pivot that way in order to be a successful, profitable business. They were currently purchased by, I think, Hyundai, a large company. So they're, I think, trying to justify their worth, all that kind of stuff. I'm not sure how businesses work. All I know is when marketing people get in the way of great engineering, you run into problems.

This is why, sorry to interrupt, why Tesla, I'm a huge fan of what Elon is doing. He's not letting marketing get in the way of great engineering. There's very little marketing people at Tesla. And most of the ones that do marketing, first of all, Elon does great marketing on his Twitter, but also the Tesla Twitter has run really well marketing-wise. They understand that to highlight the brilliance of a particular product, you have to highlight the engineering. You have to highlight the design, and that means you don't want to get in the way of the engineers and the designers. Well, here's the best example of that.

There's zero advertisements for Tesla, and it's the number one selling car in America. There you go. It's just brilliantly made. That's all you need to know. I mean, everyone knows. You drive it, you're like, holy shit. You see it. It's wild. You see the giant screen and you realize that it can move that fast with no sound. It's pretty phenomenal stuff. When you consider the fact that the most, I mean, think about most cars that are sold in America. You're inundated with advertisement, whether it's Cadillac or Ford or whatever.

There's constant ads. They make great cars. Don't get me wrong. But Tesla doesn't have any ads, and they sell more than anybody, which is pretty incredible. Create a product that people love, and it's word of mouth from there i think it's also connected to elon too i don't think it would be as successful if it wasn't connected to such a bizarre tony stark type character because he's such a unique cultural he's like a he's an iconic figure he's it's not he's not a normal human you know it's like he's our super genius well it's

interesting to analyze them right like are all the memes about doge useful or are they are they productive or counterproductive like is the humor help advertise spacex and tesla or does it destroy them? Is the funding secured for 20 help or hurt? Does him smoking weed on your show and then saying, oops, does that help or hurt? I don't know. It does not hurt. Yeah, it feels like it helps. How could it hurt if the company is doing so well? You're telling me it would be doing even better?

That sounds crazy. Well, a lot of most CEOs would say yes, they're wrong, right? That's what the sense is they're wrong But that means you have to rethink the way we run companies you have to be more open You have to have more fun. You have to be more crazy, but you have to be Elon Musk's That's the thing. You can't just get another person to do it that way. You have to be that guy like crazy is not enough well, this whole thing is his his love of space balls yeah right yeah I mean that's genuine yeah genuine love of space balls the reason why he created

the flamethrower not a flamethrower the reason why he created the new Model S and called it the plaid this is is all space ball stuff. He even changed the shape of his rocket to look more like space balls. I mean, it doesn't even make sense. It's awesome. But, again, you're not going to recreate that artificially. It has to actually genuinely, naturally, organically be that guy, and that's who he is. But you have to allow people like that to rise to the top

in all spaces of leadership. I see in I see in politics, like, I don't know, Andrew Yang is somebody like that. Somebody who's doesn't look like the past. And Elon Musk certainly doesn't look like the past in terms of CEOs. By the way, I know you're not a huge fan of autopilot or don't use it very often, but they have, have, because I want to squeeze in AI a little bit. They have Autonomy Day in a few days. Tesla does. And they're going to, they've been doing, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but they've been doing a lot of interesting stuff on the semi-autonomous, autonomous driving side.

So one of the crazy things they're doing that I never thought would be possible is to use vision only for their FSD, for their autopilot, meaning cameras only. Talking about breaking with the ways of the past. So in the past, you always have radar. You have more, quote unquotequote reliable sensors for emergency situations for for like emergency braking so here Tesla is using only cameras so only vision the logic there's our roads are all designed for human eyes therefore you should be able to drive with only visual information the problem is with rain with fog with all those conditions with night how are you going to be able to do it?

And the fact that they're doing so much more successfully than I would expect is quite incredible from an AI perspective. And they're just going full steam ahead there with something called Dojo, which is, I don't know if you know how this whole process works, which is, I don't know if you know how this whole process works, but they're basically deploying a version of autopilot software to a fleet of vehicles. Those cars are driving, sometimes by humans, sometimes by AI, and then whenever AI runs into trouble, that's a little data point that's sent back to the mothership, and then it retrains the system, and the system gets smarter and smarter,

and then redeploys a smarter version. So there's this loop. They call it the data engine. This loop, it sounds maybe trivial, but it's one of the first large-scale implementation of an AI system in the world that does this kind of loop. So it's not... Oftentimes when you deploy these kinds of systems,

you deploy them and the time between versions is like years. You have to basically buy a new smartphone or something like that. Here, the time between new versions is every week. I think every Friday they're releasing a new version or something like that, which is a revolutionary idea. It sounds ridiculously simple, but it's revolutionary in that as opposed to deploying a perfect system,

you deploy a system that's not perfect and then it improves over time and converges towards something that's safer than human drivers. That's fascinating. And then the Dojo computer is they're building their own huge system that's doing the training.

So to train neural networks or AI systems, you have to have specialized hardware. So, Elon, this is another really interesting lesson for companies, especially car companies. As opposed to outsourcing the work to other companies, you do it all in-house. So if you look at the history of Tesla, at first it was distributed across other suppliers and so on, but they're doing more and more and more in-house. I think that the dream is you have a single factory, like here, Giga in Austin, Texas, where the input is raw materials and the output is a finished car. And they're doing the same thing with the AI.

They don't want to use GPUs and computers from somebody else they want to have that in-house so the whole thing it's like this this organism that takes in raw materials and produces intelligent vehicles I love that he called it dojo dojo yeah yeah the guy has has a knack for names yeah ridiculous but that's the point. What's the most ridiculous one? So a lot of references to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah? Like what? I'm trying to think. The naming of the ships,

of the ships that catch the rockets. I'm blanking on their names. It's like I Love You Too or something like that it's a references to all these sci-fi books which by the way i've been like tormented by people on the internet to read more sci-fi unfortunately how do you have the time you make oh speaking of which you're doing like a book a day yeah andrew huberman is coming into town and he is uh he's doing this thing that like i don't know it's like stephen king style thing where he's just locking himself in a room and writing he has to finish his he's working on a book some like science related book uh he's a

brilliant guy so he's just gonna sit there and write is that how king does it he locks himself in a room with all great writers right they go go to some weird ritual of every morning for four hours, they go into a cabin with a typewriter. They all have a ritual, like a routine. Writers are insane. I think that's the hardest. I guess you do the same thing for comedy. You don't have to do many hours of it, but it can be torture,

which is why many people avoid it. You have to go in front of a blank sheet of paper or some version of that, and you have to write. It's not torture. It is not torture. It's procrastination. People have this issue with getting things started. Right. It literally is just training the mind.

It's training the mind to, like, that's how you get things done. I mean, literally, it's all it is. But you're not letting yourself, you're somebody that just destroys yourself on a treadmill and kettlebells. So you're not allowing yourself to not get started at something difficult. Yeah, but that's, yeah, it's just a, it's just, you have to have, like, real real clear boundaries what you'll tolerate from yourself. And if you don't, then you'll just procrastinate to the end of time. And I know a lot of guys do that. Like Louis C.K. has an interesting approach to comedy writing.

He doesn't have a Wi-Fi connection in a laptop that he uses that he writes on. So when he writes, he has to just write. He can't just go, oh, let me look at porn. Oh, let me look at this and let me look at that. That's a real problem with people where they just find things to do other than the actual work itself.

If you had a typewriter, typewriters are whack. It's probably okay, but then problem, you know typewriters whack, you know, it's it's it's probably okay But then you got to reprint it like how do you gonna put it on a computer? Like what you gonna do? But I know guys who write on a typewriter because they don't want to fuck with anything electronic where they have this you know this potential for Distraction I know guys who write longhand for that reason too

They just have a notebook and then write longhand for that reason too. They just have a notebook and they write it out on notepaper. But then again, what if you lose your notebook? Yeah, I still write letters. But when you look at somebody like Huberman, there's hundreds if not thousands of references. Yes, of course, different sort of writing. He needs the computer.

And there's a different challenge to be able to use the internet effectively without looking at the porn. It always goes back to the porn. But I'm doing this little experiment. I'm just like disconnecting from the world and going to read 12 to 14 hours a day. It's been a while since I did that. You know, I'll do like an hour or two a day,

often audio books, that kind of thing. I'm just going back to- 12 hours a day? Really? Writing? Just reading 12 hours a day really writing just reading 12 hours there writing as well writing notes about it just thinking like I see books especially those kinds you know it's it's like the classics from from the stranger by Camus brave new world oh yeah oh these are your books I know some of them were the ones i was i was thinking about meditations by marcus aurelius i just uh was reading that yeah it's really wild when you

think about how long ago that guy lived and you know how applicable some of his thoughts are today yeah same i mean the same as with book of five rings and Out of War, right? It's been forever. I mean, a lot of these books I've already read. I'm sort of rereading them. The way I think about books is the kind of travel. So you're like traveling to a place. Like Man's Search for Meaning with Viktor Frankl is the Holocaust and is the story of a man in a concentration camp finding meaning and beauty in a moment of suffering.

And so you're traveling with him to that concentration camp, and you're there. And then if you only read for like 30 minutes, you don't get a chance to fully immerse. If you just stay there and you travel you travel there it can I know you can really change you or it's at least in the past this has really kind of transformed your mind I watched Restrepo last night because of what's going on in Afghanistan do you know Restrepo Sebastian Younger's film on Afghanistan yeah just sort of just put it in perspective, like what's going on over there now. And, um, it's, you know, I mean, books are amazing for putting things into perspective, but there's something about a documentary, especially a boots on the ground documentary

by a journalist like Sebastian Younger and in Afghanistan while Afghanistan is falling to the Taliban. So it's feels so it feels so intense when you're watching it and you see guys in the beginning of the film that wind up dying. First of all, I forgot. I think you have a sense of what they mean when they talk about these mountainous areas, this mountainous terrain that's impossible really to control because it's very difficult to traverse, very difficult to get around.

I don't think you really understand it until you watch that film, until you really see the mountains and you're like, oh God, like how is anybody ever going to control this area? Like no wonder why the Soviets failed. No wonder why we failed. No wonder why the people that live there, they're living in an incredibly difficult environment in terms of like just getting around. Yeah, I remember some statistics about like 99 of people in afghanistan

afghanistan now i sound like brian callen afghanistan uh iran iran yeah i never know how to say it uh i remember like 99 of them didn't know 9-11 happened so like they're completely disconnected from the world even that's so crazy that like even things that seem relevant did you watch the videos today of people trying to climb aboard planes and falling to their deaths the planes are taken off these guys are hanging on to the landing gear and as the landing gear pulls up they're falling to their death trying to save themselves yes trying to leave with the Americans. It's fucking crazy.

Just the chaos at the airport. You haven't seen any of this stuff? No, I haven't seen it. I actually have not been paying attention to what's happening. Jamie, show him some of the videos because it's heartbreaking. Yeah, these are people just literally climbing all over these ladders, doing whatever they can, trying to force themselves onto these planes. But the really fucked one is, look, these guys hanging on the landing gear. Watch this. Like falling to his death.

It's fucked. Yeah, and look at this. I mean, fucking crazy. All these guys trying to stop the plane so they can get on board. I mean, this is just a tremendous failure. It's so heartbreaking. Yeah, but what do you do? What could be done differently, right?

That's the real question. Could they have designed a better withdrawal plan that scaled over time where they gave particularly the people that helped the American military over there that they're very vulnerable right now. They're in a lot of trouble. Could they have protected them better? Could they have have done something could they have designed a plan that's what most people who are criticizing this believe the people that actually understand what's going on over there they think this idea of pulling out immediately yeah but half the world is living under authoritarian regimes so the question is how do you help those people how do you help those people?

How do you help? You had a nice, sophisticated, deep historical conversation with Andrew Schultz about North Korea. Are you being sarcastic? There's a little bit of sarcasm there. I love him. He's hilarious. I'm just joking. He is hilarious, but he was going hard in the paint. Yeah, a little bit.

But he's having fun. Well, the one sort of sophisticated criticism there was, well, what the hell do you do about it? Right, what do you do about North Korea? There's a lot of places like that. North Korea is probably the worst or one of the worst. But there's a lot of places where the leader of the government is abusing its people. What do you do about it? The whole cryptocurrency, Bitcoin

people say, maybe you can change the money. You can give people power by, like one of the ways government controls its people is the monetary system. So you can swap out, try to give people power through the money. That's one way.

That's interesting. Obviously, the old school way is military or also maybe economic pressures. But then it becomes difficult because you're taking on that project and then you get the thing that you get in Afghanistan. And it's a project that takes 10 years. It takes 20 years.

And then ultimately it's not successful. The Afghanistan situation is so crazy because, you know, Biden was on television just a little while ago talking about how there's 300,000 armed Afghanistan soldiers that were trained by the United States. And there's only 75,000 Taliban there's no way that they're going to fall but they never fought they just gave up like instantly yeah you know it's like the whole situation is very confusing to someone who doesn't understand it if you're if you're a guy who fought over there too it's got to be insanely frustrating people spilled blood over there people lost limbs over there and then they're seeing how quickly we just pulled out in an abandoned ship

like what what was what was that for well we got into that war under false pretenses we stayed without much transparency about why we're staying how many 20 years yeah without without a clear plan for the future and Then we pulled out without a clear transparent plan Hey, what but I don't know what lesson to draw from that except that we should never gone in in the first place Yes, that's the only sort of solid set of arguments you can have Because and then why that place you know It's the people that argue is all about oil and all those kinds of things.

And minerals and all sorts of natural resources, right? And natural gas. Like Afghanistan is a rich suppository of lithium, I believe, too, right? Yeah, natural. But then what about Iraq? What does that have to do with anything? And so you start questioning the whole operation, the whole process of making decisions about foreign policy and the military conflicts. What lesson do you draw from that when there's places like North Korea, when there's many people in Africa suffering, there's

many regimes that are abusing its people there. Then there's people that criticize Russia for certain things in terms of from an authoritarian regime perspective. And then the big one is China. And then what do you do about that? And then, I mean, I do find the libertarian argument here the most sophisticated and convincing is we should stay out of other people's business until we have a really clear, good plan. And, you know, the majority of Americans, given a transparent communication of what is going on and what we're going to do, majority of Americans are behind this plan. Otherwise, stay out of it. Unless have you know and that you know when you have like a something like a nazi germany where there's obvious atrocities uh happening where there's an

obvious war on the horizon then that's different but everything else that's the case then why aren't we invading north korea if wino park and all these different people that have escaped from north korea are telling the truth that there's a holocaust going on there right now. I mean, they're literally starving their people. They're putting their people in concentration camps. They're having children born in concentration camps for the crimes of their grandparents. And their children will also be born in these camps, in these prison camps. They're starving their people.

They execute them for, you know, almost no reason. They do whatever they want to them. They have full and total complete control over them. Well, the dark answer and the reason is because there's no way to do anything about North Korea without also doing something about China. Yeah. And that's why we turn a blind eye to North Korea because, I mean, a war with North Korea

or invasion of North Korea is an invasion of China. Well, also North Korea has nuclear weapons, right? The nuclear weapon thing really has changed the idea of war. Because when, it's kind of amazing that no one's dropped a bomb since 1947. Isn't it? Yeah, it's amazing. It gives me hope for humanity. Like, we're not so crazy that we're going to just blow each other up. Right.

Yeah. It is amazing. Right? I mean, it's one of the most amazing things about people, that we have the ultimate weapon, and we haven't used it in decades. There's a lot of terrorists in this world, and it's amazing to me. They haven't done anything much more destructive than 9-11. Yeah, like a nuke.

Yeah, a nuke, but even less than that like orchestrated orchestrated attacks you you sent me the q anon documentary that's an orchestrated attack but that's an yeah i started i'm only on episode two i cannot recommend recommend it enough the one on hbo yes you finally started yes that's good it is Yes. That's good. It is so good. It's incredible, right? Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I'm only on it. I finished episode two. I'm moving to episode three. It's so fucked because I'm trying to be kind here.

Misfits need love too. And misfits need a purpose. And that is what I got out of that documentary, at least the first two episodes. I mean, free speech also. You know, the family that runs 8chan in the Philippines. Like, their commitment to free speech and to let people just do whatever the fuck they want to do. Like, in many ways, I agree and see their point. But the, not even but,

what I'm seeing in the documentary though, these people that are into QAnon, the people that were following the drops, the people that were deeply invested in believing that this was some person

who, I don't know, maybe they'd resolve this later on in the series, I don't know, maybe they'd resolve this later on in the series. I don't know. After two, do they ever resolve it? I haven't finished the other myself. Who the person is. Yeah, who actually queued in. No, they don't resolve it.

Yeah, I don't think so. But as far as you, from what I understand, the theme continues there. So even in the first two, if we can give a little bit of a spoiler. It's called Into the Storm. Into the Storm. Yeah, it's on HBO Max bit of a spoiler. It's called Into the Storm. Into the Storm. Yeah, it's on HBO Max. It's great.

It's really well done. It's Q Into the Storm or something like that. Yeah, and one of those guys was on Duncan's podcast. The gentleman who's disabled. What is his name? Fred. Fred, yeah. Brennan.

Yeah, Fred Brennan. Yeah, he was on Duncan's podcast. Duncan says he's great. And he's remarkably well, what's the word? He handles himself really well for a guy who got dealt such a shit hand of cards, you know, biologically. There he is. Frederick Brennan. I was very impressed with him. There it is. Duncan Trussell, episode 433. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. He was interesting because

he said, I think it was in the first episode, he says something like, you know, he is disabled and, you know, like people generally in in public nice to him But then when he went in anonymous forums people were basically just cruel to him. Yeah ruthless and He was kind of excited by that because He almost the way he put it he like he was able to peek into what people really thought. Yeah I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that's true either

because I think people say things online that they don't really believe. They say it for shock value and they say it because there's no consequence. So they just say fucked up things and they say it also to try to impress each other with how dark you can get. Yeah.

It becomes a fun game of toxicity. Like it's fun to just go up, up. And I mean, so there's the cool thing about that documentary to me, I always had a hunch, but that documentary makes it clear to me that one person can be Q. So the documentary from the very beginning, I don't think they resolve it, but it's the guy that's currently running it. Is it Code Monkey? Ron Watkins. That's Q. I've always thought- That's what they think?

That's what the documentary is implying from the very beginning. I mean, the way they're painting in the first two episodes. I didn't think that. You thought that? Yeah. So he looks like he's lying non-stop. Really? First of all. I don't think he looks like he's lying. I think he looks like he's very socially awkward and he's just talking. I didn't think he looked like he was

lying at all. It's interesting. We have a different perspective on this. This is analysis. I didn't think he was lying. Analyzing Shakespeare in high school. Did you think, Jamie? Did you think he was lying? It's like analyzing Shakespeare in high school. Did you think, Jamie? Did you think he was lying? He's the son of the guy, right? Yeah. The son of the guy who runs 8chan. Both of them look like they're lying.

That guy's a trip. They seem like they're up to something. The 8chan. The guy who runs, the old guy who runs 8chan, his dad is a trip. Yeah. He's a character. I don't, I'm not interested in politics. I'm not interested in politics.

He keeps saying that. Off the first two episodes, though, I wouldn't say that I thought that, but thought that but he's a suspect maybe I guess but not top of the top three. Yeah I didn't think he was a suspect at all. First time I saw him I was like that guy that's Q. Really? Yeah it's obvious it's so to me technically speaking because not the people on the forums but him I know that person in the following sense like I know programmers these are hackers he's a programmer i know these people i it i knew from the very beginning that q uh is not if it's controlled by a government agency like in russia or something like that it's because they acquired a single person who was in who was good at this that it's it's pretty easy for a single person to control anonymous forums in this way

with some combination of bots and just individual. It's weaving narratives. Human beings love narratives. And if you come up with crazy shit and you start that there's a mystery, like a Hitchcock style mystery, you're basically telling stories. It's how Scientology got started.

You're telling beautiful stories, like some mystery, some painting a picture of evil that you get to fight, painting a picture of a better world if you defeat the evil. All those things you can do pretty effectively through technology by a single person. I thought it was clearly manipulative from the start, because if you look at the way Q is writing like everything is a mystery and a puzzle if you're trying to release information and you're doing so anonymously why wouldn't you be clear and succinct yeah why because they're playing games with misfits that's what they're doing you know what I don't like about uh what's his name Watkins what's his name

the son yeah Watkins yeah I don't like his glasses why does he get taped up glasses it's too on the nose it's like I bet those fucking glasses are clear I bet he doesn't even need them

we notice different things I noticed ego he tapes his fucking glasses the little thing in the corner that could have been done for the movie too

because I'm looking at other pictures of him and there are no pictures of taped up glasses but I had to find that one well maybe he broke his glasses right before but I'm suspicious i'm suspicious of the taped up glasses because the cowboy hat i don't know is there a more cliche like portrayal of a nerd than the

tape on the glasses yeah it's literally from revenge of the nerds right in the movie revenge of the nerds didn't he have his glasses taped i think he did i'm guessing mean, it's literally from Revenge of the Nerds. Right? In the movie Revenge of the Nerds, didn't he have his glasses taped? I think he did. I'm guessing. Yeah. But it's cliche for a reason. First of all, tape is functional. Right.

And nerds think in a very, computer programmers think in a very functional way. What's your problem with tape? It's just the fact that he's got taped up glasses while he's doing an HBO documentary. There's no tape, I don't think. No? I think it's just a stereotype deal. I feel like Revenge of the Nerds had taped up glasses. No?

I don't know. But you're right. One of those movies did. But you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taped up. The tape in the corner of the glasses is so cliche. But yes, do people tape their glasses when their glasses break? Yes, they do.

It's a good thing to do it is functional but when i saw him with the taped up glass i'm like get the fuck out of here you couldn't get your glasses fixed you really just can't tape them up so who do you think is cute from just your like when you thought about q anon who did you before the documentary who do you think it was an organization no i thought it was probably some wackadoo who works with Trump who is enjoying the fact that he has access and he's playing games with people. That's what I felt like. He's playing games and manipulating people.

It's just the way they're communicating. The way they're communicating with puzzles and then all these QAnon dorks, all these people that are like these misfits that they follow in this documentary that are really obsessed with it. They have to try to piece the puzzle together. Tell them what the fuck is going on. Why is this a puzzle? Why is this a puzzle that's open to interpretation? That's dumb.

That's a dumb way to leak information. Did Edward Snowden release information in puzzles? Did Julian Assange release information in puzzles? No. This is a stupid way to release information. Did Edward Snowden release information in puzzles? Did Julian Assange release information in puzzles? No. This is a stupid way to release information. You don't have to reveal your identity, but reveal the information very clearly. The way he speaks in these broken sentences and the fact that it's coded, this is someone who's fucking with people. Yeah. But the thing is, what I got out of this documentary so far is that, look, if you get 100 people in the room, you're going to have a misfit. One person in that room is going to be an outcast. They're not going to fit in, and they're going to be searching for meaning and longing.

And this is just – they don't have, like like a very clear place where they fit into the puzzle so if you get a hundred people and one of them is like that well you have 330 million people in this country yeah so you have fucking millions and millions of misfits see i think the number i mean you're just giving an example. I think the number of people who are searching and are a bit lost and are deeply lonely is much closer to 100% than to 1%. 100% deeply lonely? Yeah, there's a depth of loneliness in all of us and that we're searching for meaning.

I really honestly think that if you look at the spread of the people in the world, I'm not saying 100%, but I'm saying like, there's a population of 60, 70% that, I mean, they're not radicalized, but they're searching. And we're searching for stories to unite over. And this is the scary thing. It's both exciting and scary. It's exciting because you can use technology for the people to rise up against power centers that are abusing them. I mean, that's what QAnon is doing. They're doing it with false narratives, and they're rising up against, I would say, the wrong kind of power centers. But the fact that people can do that, I think, starting from a single person is exciting to me and it's promising to me because I ultimately believe in the positive aspects of human nature. But I also do believe people are searching and we're hungry.

And so what we're calling misfits, you're a misfit. Yeah. You're just like, you're a busy misfit that runs on a treadmill. So you don't have time to check forums. Well, I'm not interested in it either. It's not just a treadmill you have time to check forums well I'm not interested in either it's not just I don't have time I just I see what they're doing this longing for community and I get my community in different ways but if I didn't have stand-up comedy if I didn't have jujitsu if I didn't have podcasting I would try to find community in some way.

And I think when I say misfits, a lot of these folks, they're just social outcasts, right, in a lot of ways. And it's not just that they're misfits. They're kind of disconnected to, you know, like the lady who's missing her front tooth and the husband and they're like telling the kid, build that wall, build that wall. These are misfits, right? These are goofy people that they don't have.

I don't think they have many conversations with objective, intelligent people that are well-informed. So when they're having these conversations, I think they lack the experience of critical thinking skills. And so they'll believe all kinds of stupid shit. You know, like the guy who got super excited that he thinks that Trump was pointing at him. He's like, Trump pointed at me. With a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Because he's got the Q shirt on and Trump always has 17. And, you know, what does he say? Just Q weight. Yeah, just Q weight, yeah. That could have been because he's on Adderall and his fucking mouth was getting sloppery. I don't know. I mean, he fucked up a lot of words,

but the 17 is odd. That is like the number 17 constantly. And another thing, like that whole cue clearance thing, another film that I watched recently was Collapse with Michael Rupert. Do you know who Michael Rupert is? No. Michael Rupert was a friend of mine. He killed himself a few years back.

And he's been on the podcast a couple times. The last time I saw him, he gave me a large jar of mushrooms. He's a very interesting guy. And he worked for the Los Angeles Police Department in the narcotics division. And he exposed the CIA selling drugs in south central Los Angeles. And he did it on, I think it was on C-SPAN. And he did it at like a city council meeting or some some some big public meeting it's a wild speed have you ever seen it Jamie yeah

we played it I could send it to you if you want I have it saved in my phone but I in the film he says and this was like at the same time I'm watching this documentary I just I was thinking about him, just randomly thinking about him. And this film collapsed and it was all about peak oil and the collapse of civilization. And it was a few years back. I want to say the film was like probably 2008 or some shit, 2009. And some of his predictions were accurate and some of his predictions were not. But the peak oil thing is definitely not correct because they've subsequently found a lot of oil in other places.

But in the film, he's talking about how he has Q-level clearance. Like, it is a thing. Like, Q-level clearance is a thing. Q-level clearance is a thing, and he had it from the time he was young because his father involved in some intelligence business. But this is him. Play this. This is Watchtower. I have Watchtower documents heavily redacted by the agency.

I was personally exposed to CIA operations and recruited by CIA personnel who attempted to recruit me in the late 70s to become involved in protecting agency drug operations in this country. I have been trying to get this out for 18 years, and I have the evidence. My question for you is very specific, sir. If, in the course of the IG's investigations and Fred Hitz's work, you come across evidence of severely criminal activity, hits his work, you come across evidence of severely criminal activity, and it's classified. Will you use that classification to hide the criminal activity, or will you tell the American people the truth?

I think we missed the beginning of it, where he said that he personally witnessed the CIA selling drugs, but this is 1996. Allegations of CIA involvement in drug trafficking. It all turned out to be 100% true. I mean, this is how freeway Ricky Ross, the original real Rick Ross, made millions and millions and millions of dollars. He thought he was just an awesome drug dealer. Well, he was an awesome drug dealer that was working with the CIA, unbeknownst to him. Like they were allowing him to sell drugs so they could profit off of it, so they could funnel the money into the war with the Contras and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

And this was when Clinton was president. Yes. No, it was when Reagan was president that it was all going down. But this was when Clinton was president that he was on television talking about it. By the way, there's not often, I'm a big fan of JRE. There's not often when I do a podcast interview, I was talking to Roger Reeves, and I'm thinking I wish I wasn't doing this interview and I wish I was listening to this on your show. Roger Reeves, the drug trafficker, that guy is incredible.

You need to talk to him or somebody like him. I would definitely talk to him. First of all, Jorge Ochoa, who with Pablo Escobar together created the Medellin cartel, this is crazy to me. He's out of prison. He's living in Medellin. I don't know how these guys— Jorge Ochoa is? Yeah yeah he's been out for roger

reeves is as well right he's out of yeah roger he's just got out yeah roger he's got arrested in i think australia for transporting one or two tons of cocaine whoops you got personal use yeah exactly uh but he has so many it's fascinating what it takes especially back in the day uh it's like barry seal so barry seal worked for roger reese uh and then barry seal became his own like big big transporter and roger was on your podcast yeah which is really i reach out to you about that yeah really really Really, really, really interesting episode. Fascinating. Well, it also touches my heart because he, it's like, go to see about a girl.

He's been with his wife through that whole thing. She was with him through all the crazy times. And when he was in prison for many, many years, she stayed with him. And now they're back together. And there's like, I got to hang out with them. And they're like, they're still and now they're back together and there's there's like i got to hang out with them and they're like they're still like they're in love it's crazy just to like look at a couple like through all of that through all the look at that just the crazy life they've been through together and is he allowed to travel did where did you meet him uh and he came down to austin really yeah where does he live in uh san diego yeah or something

like that like california i forgot yeah he can travel freely yeah well he um i don't know all of this what i what i know is he still doesn't seem to give a damn he's so full of life and joy and he always was so he's never witnessed or participated in any violence he was never witnessed it no so like the only times he was shooting so he was treated like royalty so he was protected like he was never allowed to see anything bad because like he sort of um the violence was between the rival kind of cartels. Right. He was protected. He was treated like royalty. There was no pressure. He made sure that it's frictionless and and comfortable for him to do the transportation.

So he was just flying the coke in coke and weed in large amounts back and forth. The the the violence he's had is when he's being chased and he's been chased quite a bit by the police. So like, he doesn't shoot back but he's trying not to die

from being shot. And there's all these things. And it's great. So the, I mean, Barry's got similar stories. You have to fly really low. Yeah.

So you have to do all this kind of crazy shit. To avoid radar. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you have to fly really low you have to do all this kind of crazy shit to avoid radar yeah yeah so you have to you have to know what you're doing you have to take big risks i mean there's many times where he had to crash and then run through the jungle and like you know that kind of stuff like the usual yeah the usual thing you would expect for many many years of transporting drugs and he's always has this goofy, happy smile on his face, just joyful. Escaped from prison five times. But since actually doing that interview, a bunch of people have written to me like they were in jail with him, in prison with him.

Everybody speaks really highly of him. It's kind of interesting. Except people who are like he aided in the transport. He aided in the suffering of many people by giving them drugs. And there's a lot of... Yeah, that's... I get... That one's a slippery one because I feel like my opinion, particularly about cocaine, I think cocaine should be legal. Yeah.

100%. I think marijuana should be legal. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think marijuana should be legal. It's kind of legal in a lot of places. Alcohol is legal everywhere. Cocaine is arguably better for you than those, well, not marijuana, but better for you than alcohol. And the problem with cocaine is the fact that it's illegal.

So you're getting cocaine that's been stepped on, cocaine that has things like fentanyl in it that's causing people to overdose. If they got a hold of pure cocaine and made supposedly educated decisions, you could educate people. Like we've educated people somewhat about alcohol, right? We know not to drink and drive. We know alcohol can cause liver damage and it could fuck you up and drink moderately. These narratives are all constantly distributed, right? We should have done the same thing with cocaine. Yeah.

Like, I'm not interested in cocaine, but I think cocaine should be legal. I really do. I mean, so many fucking people do it and they're getting it from these weird sources where you you really have no idea What's actually in it? You're not testing it You know and I it's infuriating for for adults for grown adults They should be able to make informed decisions And if they just had pure cocaine which they would be able to get if it was legal So that is stepped on bullshit that people are getting it probably a lot better for you

We talked to dr. Carl Hart. Have you ever had him on your show? You should have him on your show. You know who he is? The guy from Columbia? He's brilliant. And his perspective is incredible. It's very refreshing because here you got a guy who's a professor at Columbia who talks openly about responsible drug use, that he uses drugs and he enjoys them. he's a brilliant man and he doesn't it's not wasted his life at all it's not ruined him at all and he was a clinical researcher and before before he was a researcher he was of the opinion that drugs are bad and he bought into all the propaganda about drugs and he's like there's no way to use them right you're going to get addicted it's going to fuck you up but along the the way, doing actual research, he came to understand what they actually do to you and how they could be used responsibly.

And he talks about heroin too, right? Yeah, he uses heroin. Sniffs heroin. Yeah. So that might not be right for everyone, but we should at least do really good science on who is it right for, what are the protocols, how to do it in a healthy way, all that kind of stuff. Do you know how many people are on OxyContin right now? How many people are on Oxycodone? And how many people have back pains and their doctors prescribe some opiates

and they take them on a regular basis? I would like to know. Let's find out. How many people in the United States regularly take prescribed opiates? Because there's very little difference between opiates prescribed in pill form and heroin the difference is again with heroin you're getting it from some fucking crazy sources you don't know what's in it if you get it oxycodone oxycontin and the various pills that you get opiates in you're getting it at least you're getting a pharmaceutical grade version of it

and then jordan peterson went through hell because of benzodiazepines. Yeah, that's even differently because that's an anti-anxiety medication. Yeah, but it's also being over prescribed. I mean, not over prescribed, but prescribed judiciously. Let's see here. Holy shit. Holy shit. Let's go to 2016.

Holy shit. Holy shit. Let's go to 2016. 214,881,622 prescriptions. Wait, what? Just look at that number. Okay, let's just go to 2019 because it drops quite a bit. But still, because they tightened down the regulations and there's a lot of documentaries about the abuse of it.

But in 2019, it's quite a bit less. But it's still 153,260,450 prescriptions. 50% of the population. For opioids. What's the map look like? Rate maps? Is there a map of the United States that's kind of connected to this? Listen to this. The opioid dispensing rate per 100 persons, 46.7.

But in 2016, it's 66.5. So for every 100 persons in 2016, 66 of them were taking opioids. That's fucking wild. And that is a financial boom. Can you imagine the amount of money they're making off of this? And the amount of suffering that's behind

those numbers. Yeah. It's crazy. It's really crazy. Three waves of the rise of opioid overdose deaths. Heroin's way down there compared to synthetic opioids and the other shit. Yeah, fentanyl's the big one, right? That's just killing people left and right.

Fentanyl is, what is it, something like 100 times stronger than heroin? Something bananas like that. Yeah, I mean, that's the argument roger reese uses is like this is this had never been the the war on drugs this should never have been illegal yeah uh and and then obviously he ties it into like the cia and uh the clintons with me in arkansas with barry seal there's a lot of interesting stories that i mean to me I'm not actually that like with Oliver Oliver North I'm not familiar with all of that world especially just coming from the Soviet Union I wasn't I didn't have this history of there's a lot of shady shit that happened oh yeah past few decades that yeah I've not kind

of tuned my mind to well they were aware that billions and billions of dollars were being made. And so rogue elements of government agencies participated in the trafficking of this and they funneled that money into black operations, like they did with the Sandinistas and the Contras versus the Contras. But they've been doing that forever. They've been doing that forever. And if you thought about drug use and drug

illegality, you scaled it down. I always like to scale things down to a preposterous number. So if there was just the three of us on the world, why would we make anything illegal? If just the three of us, there's three guys in this room, you, me, and Jamie, we're all grown adults. Imagine if Jamie decided that he's the police officer and if he catches you with heroin he's gonna lock you in a cage it'll be preposterous we have to pull Jamie aside we have to go Jamie what you think you can't lock Lex up in jail cuz he wants his heroin what if I get violent when I drink and then you would all agree that we don't let Lex drink

because he gets violent would you wouldn't you don't let Lex drink because he gets violent. Would you? Wouldn't you just say let's stay the fuck away from Lex when he's drinking? I don't know. Listen, it depends. It depends. Like, you should be charged with – listen, we already have laws. By the way, I'm a friendly drunk. I'm not saying –

He is a friendly drunk. This is very – We already have laws for crimes. Do we really need laws for substances that could potentially cause you to commit crimes? Because if you get drunk and you are friendly drunk like you are in real life and you just laugh and we have a good time, then that's fine. But if you get drunk and you go out there and you want to fight the security guards

and you want to go across the street to 7-Eleven and kick somebody's ass, the problem is the actions. The problem is not the substance itself. The problem is what are you doing when you're on these substances? Well, we already have laws to stop you from doing those things. Are we saying that if you drink alcohol that it's impossible for you to control your violent urges? Well, you have a problem with violent urges. It has nothing really to do with alcohol.

Yeah. This gets into that Michael Malice anarchy question yes is then do you uh do you should you even have an army to protect a police force to protect michael go so deep with this he goes he says like give don't everything should be legal there should not be rules at all does he have a gun it's he's in new york he doesn't have gun he lives here now he is not only is he well he doesn't officially live here yet I think he moves here

September 1st not only does he live here but he's like got a move next door to me yay good I like it

you two together are hilarious I don't I don't even know what that yeah that's he's a little shit star that guy

yeah he is and he's brilliant at it he's also just like one of the most well-read, one of the most brilliant people I've ever talked to, which is hilarious because he has all of these, sometimes literally, masks that he can put on and take off. It's like the most masterful troll I've ever encountered.

He spent a lot of time on the internet. He knows how to stir some shit. He's usually classy about it. Yes. He's great I love him. I think he's I think he's amazing. But you know, he's and also I don't know anybody like it Yeah, you know, let's celebrate the weirdos. It's like Tim Dillon there's there's a few people they're just like They must be protected. They must be protected They're uniquely.

It makes you happy to be part of this civilization because that thing exists. Yeah, they're my favorite. Yeah. I love weirdos. Yeah. I really do. I celebrate them, and I try to boost their signal as much as possible. I think we need them.

We need weirdos. As long as they're nice yes it's i always wonder like elon musk i wonder um in each industry there there's like a rare moment when there's like this weird shooting star this glimmering weird thing that uh that happens one of my um i've been obsessed watching soccer lately football really for real do you know khhabib is going to play, well, football. He's going to play soccer now? What do you mean, professionally?

Yes. What? Yeah, he just signed to a soccer team. What? Yeah. That's what he wants to do. Really? Yeah, one of his dreams. Interesting.

Yeah. It's like Michael Jordan playing baseball. Interesting. I mean, I don't know how good he is. He might be really good. Yeah. But people are going to tune in to watch yeah they'll tune in to watch but i mean he's done fighting he's like i'm done i accomplished everything i wanted to accomplish i told my mother i'd quit he's made millions and

millions of dollars and he's also been given millions and millions of dollars by all sorts of like very very rich muslim people who love him and they gifted him money and he's just and also he lives very simply very simply and i have toyota truck i've been talking to a lot of russians lately and they people in russia love them yeah i would i would love to talk to that guy in russian only oh i wonder i bet he would do it you could have like a subtitled version on youtube because i think there's a certain way he speaks in english and there's a certain way he speaks in Russian. Right, yeah. It's very different because he's still not comfortable with English.

So he speaks like semi-location in English. Send location. Send location, which is nice for intimidation, but it's a different thing. It's a different thing. In Russian, you can be more poetic. You can be deeper. You can be more emotional. Like he doesn't actually know how to be real and emotional in English yet.

Because I have the same kind of leap you have to take to be able to be open to the full human experience in another language. It's weird how you need to know the language well in order to experience the world in that language. If you had to make a judgment between the two languages, which language do you think allows you to express yourself more eloquently? So 100% Russian is...

Now, I'm biased a little bit, but I thinkussian is a language that is uh more effective at communicating uh feeling uh emotion suffering the the way the language has evolved because it went through the 20th century through the wars through the atrocities through all of that i think there's something to that where the language carries the burden of the people, the suffering of the people with it. Like the American experiment has a different trajectory that results in a different language. And I would say American language is much more simplistic.

So you can't fuck with the words as much the the the way the russian language works you can adjust the words to completely change the meaning plus swearing is an art form in russia like russians swear a lot more obviously not khabib but uh generally speaking russians swear a lot more than americans really swearing is a much richer part of the language. So are Russians like American comedians? Basically. Really? So what you find when people suffer, when you go through the war, when you go through poverty, more people become comedians.

Because humor is a way to escape pain. We're not talking about professional comedians. We're talking about you get some vodka, you get a guitar, and you're just shooting the shit. There's much more of that energy because there's nothing else to do. And then the laughter is one of the only ways to deal with the absurdity of the government taking everything away from you, all those kinds of things. And so there's a natural humor to the language. There's a natural ability to like between the lines to communicate pain. That's why you have all the poets, there's Dostoevsky,

even shooting way farther back Tolstoy. So there's a history of literature being used to communicate that pain i think russian language is is better at doing that but there's also kind of a general culturally speaking there's an inclination to romanticize things like to be kind of philosophical i think that has to do with um the early education system in Russia under the Soviet Union especially was such that everybody was forced to read really heavy literature early on like way early on and also do some like math like the the the level of education in Russia in the first five years, the first eight years, leading up to 10, is just like an order of magnitude more intense than it is in America. Where America catches up is the college.

And America dominates the world in university education. But in terms of high school, middle school, elementary school, American education is very soft. It doesn't really challenge people. It doesn't really challenge people, doesn't really push them. The Russian education system, you read, I mean you read all that stuff, you read Tolstoy, you read Dostoevsky. Not only that, you have to memorize hundreds of poems, you have to, there's a strictness to it where like you have to learn, at least when I was coming up, handwriting and you can't make a single mistake. So there's an emphasis on perfection i think china has similar kind of thing like this like

you're afraid the way i'm afraid when i go to a hard training session for jujitsu like beforehand like fear i was afraid going to school because there's an expectation of excellence there's an expectation of perfection if you suck you're not going to like everybody looks down on you and if you are excellent everybody celebrates you and that creates a huge amount of pressure but when uh a lot of the population does that there's just an intellectual nature to everybody the athletes just everybody the plumber everybody in the in the population is all of a sudden philosophical. And that like the Satya brothers that are sort of made Dagestan and Russian wrestling famous, they're poetic.

Just there was just a poetry. There's a romanticism. There's philosophy in the way people spoke. And I think that's connected to the language, but I'm not sure it's like the chicken or the egg. I don't know if just the language is being used in this way or the language enables that kind of communication. That does make me wonder, because I know English and Russian,

how much I'm losing that I can't speak Chinese or Japanese or Portuguese. Like how much of the culture am I missing that I'll never get a chance to truly deeply experience? Yeah, I would imagine that if you could understand Mandarin, if you could speak Mandarin and get an understanding of how the government communicates with the people, how the government controls people in China, like what they allow, what kind of conversations they allow.

I'm sure you saw the John Cena video where he was apologizing to China. I would love to hear these billionaires that are apologizing to China after China, like Jack Ma. That guy, they disappeared him for four months, then he came back and he was happy to be alive. And, you know, they took billions of dollars from his company, devalued it, did a lot of weird shit, right? What did he do? He criticized the government in some way? I don't even know if he, did he criticize? I believe he did. I believe that was his, uh, his fatal flaw. And, uh And many people thought he was dead because they've done that before. There have been billionaires before that stepped out of line and they vanished forever.

And either they're in a jail somewhere or who the fuck knows. But it's fascinating because they have this weird combination of capitalism and dictatorship. combination of capitalism and a dictatorship but the censorship there and the surveillance that's a perfect atmosphere for brilliant writing to emerge in the shadows right really that's the same as the soviet union because people don't want to be the human spirit doesn't want to be oppressed in this way but in the soviet it was never the kind of electronic censorship. See, the problem with electronic censorship is it's all entailing. You can't hide in a pub somewhere. You know what I'm saying? You can't go into a basement. I mean, you can, but the reality is most communication is done digitally. It's done online. And when they have their tentacles into all these servers and into everyone's phone and into everyone's computer, the consequences of communicating openly are very real.

Yeah, but so first of all, the surveillance is not perfect. But second of all, even without electronics, what surveillance used to look like is what is currently in North Korea is you don't know who to trust. You feel like everybody, your parents, your sister, your brother, your kids are all watching you. Well, they all report on each other in North Korea. They have to. And so basically it takes a person who says, I don't care. I'm willing to die for the things that are in my heart.

I'm going to put them on paper, and I'm going to write some of the greatest literature, some of the greatest poetry ever written. I mean, that's kind of what I'm saying is I wish I was able to connect to that literature being written right now in China. Yeah. That probably is circulating and a lot of people people know but we just don't have a connection because China is a good example at least from the way I understand of there being a very big gap culturally and language wise between America and China even bigger than I would say between America and Russia so like it really is a leap of language, a leap of culture required to truly understand the people. And it's sad that we can't or at least I feel like that's a huge learning curve, a huge burden to connect because these are like power centers.

China is getting stronger and stronger. And I believe like the way forward isn't through war. It's through, you know's through love, through connecting, through mixing the cultures and all that. But because of the language gap, that might be difficult. They have their own social networks. They have their own internet, essentially. They have their own in-house thing.

Yeah, but they have illegal songs. You're not allowed to sing and karaoke. I mean, the overwhelming censorship that they have and the overwhelming control that they have over the population is very different than what we tolerate currently. My concern over here is that we're moving towards some sort of social credit score. And I think that's one of the big concerns that people have with vaccine passports and things along those lines, that it's a slippery slope into inviting this kind of control over the population and to make it, to normalize it and to make it, you go from that to this and make it so that they have access to your whereabouts

because they need to track you for covid 19 or covid 23 or whatever the fuck it is when they ramp things up and make them even more intrusive than we have we can get closer to what they have in china and it's fucking dangerous yeah it's terrifying because uh and people have for the most part or are losing trust in uh our institutions and governments and being able to use something like vaccine passport data to help us as opposed to limit our freedoms. And that's really disappointing because things like vaccine passports might be effective if it was done by like competent institutions. But right now, I would definitely be against something like that. Well, the problem with it is you can still transmit it and you can still catch it.

So if it was a vaccine passport for polio, okay. Or the measles, okay. But you're talking about a vaccine passport that does not prevent, you're talking about a vaccine rather, that does not prevent you from catching this disease, nor does it prevent you from spreading it. So it doesn't make any sense. The effectiveness of the vaccine is in that it significantly lowers your probability of dying. So that's the pro for the vaccine, right? Like that, that's a really important thing about the vaccine. In the short term. In the short, and everything about the long term, we don't know.

We don't know. Yeah. That's the discussion with ivermectin is like, what do we know about the long? Nothing. It's been used for a long time, but we still don't have a good understanding of long-term positive or negative effects of ivermectin. We don't have a good understanding of positive and negative long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. But they have other things for therapeutics like Regeneron, the monoclonal antibodies that show incredible effectiveness. There's other things that they do that help people when they have the disease. But as far as I understand, I mean, the data on vaccines, it's like you have a set of solutions. And the question is is which one has the best ratio of

benefits to risks it seems to me that the vaccine has the best benefit to risk ratio so in terms of i mean it's very confusing to me that we're like not opening schools and still behaving in certain parts of the united states like we're on lockdown, even though there's vaccines. So like that, that's really confusing to me, because from my understanding, taking the vaccine significantly lowers your risk of death, or ending up in a hospital. So if anyone who wants to take the vaccine, or is at risk, or wants to lower their risk of dying, will take the vaccine. Everyone else accepts the risk of dying, will take the vaccine. Everyone else accepts the risk of dying, great.

Open up the society. I don't understand why it's not completely open now. So, like, you have full freedom. There's more than enough vaccines to take the vaccine. There's vaccines available to be vaccinated. And from that point, it's on you to decide what are the risks you're willing to accept. Well, there's a lot of issues, right? There's certain companies want to force people to be vaccinated.

And then there's the issues of side effects of vaccines and whether or not they're fully understood. And it's particularly long term and whether or not they're fully understood, particularly long-term, and whether or not they've been fully reported. And then also there's a lack of responsibility. The vaccine manufacturers don't have any responsibility in terms of what does or does not happen to someone once they can't be sued. Yeah. So the problem is the source of information for the effectiveness of vaccines and the risks are coming from centralized institutions that have completely lost trust of the public. Yeah. So it's like, you know.

Well, have you ever Googled like the lawsuits that are involved in the judgments against the various companies that have built these vaccines? It's against the very companies that have built these vaccines. It's some stunning corruption in the past and some horrible cases where they've shown to withhold evidence, evidence in studies. It's just people don't trust pharmaceutical companies, and they haven't for a long time. And now there's a lot of money to be made to get people vaccinated and to make that public policy. That's an understatement.

It's a huge amount of money. And so the incentives are not well aligned. And then there's people who, I mean, there's not enough authentic, strong leadership. You have somebody like Fauci, who basically nobody really trusts anymore as being the chief communicator of how we proceed forward. That's a huge problem. You don't have just the fact that people don't trust him. You have the mainstream media ignoring all the things that he's done that would lead people to distrust him, particularly financing EcoHealth Alliance, which was responsible for gain of function research in Wuhan, which was responsible perhaps for the leak of this fucking virus in the first place. If he was completely transparent about that, he was able to just talk about it normally like a human being.

There's a lot of arguments to be – like there was a lot of interesting arguments about gain-of-function research for a long time. It's very difficult to understand whether it should be funded. I think it definitely should not be funded. We should not be doing gain-of-function research. Well, if they are doing it, it should be done with responsible labs, and they know that that lab in Wuhan was cited in 2018 for safety violations. But the problem to me with Fauci isn't the actions he did. It's the lack of transparency and just basic human authentic communication. It's the same problem as with Bill Gates. I think Bill Gates is a brilliant person.

I like him, but there's something shady about the way he communicates about stuff. Whenever he buys a lot of land, he's not very clear about communicating why he bought that land and so immediately conspiracy theories spring up that spread effectively through our cue friend and and others like him and so in the final result that hurts my heart deeply is the mistrust in science so like mistrust and scientific institutions lead the mistrust in science so like mistrust in scientific institutions lead to mistrust in science and then there's like this kind of sense that science sucks no science and technology enables the high quality of life that you currently have it gives you the freedom to be

able to tweet and the the freedom period to choose the path in life for most of the people in the United States, that's science and technology. Also to get medical help on many, an infinite number of conditions you might have, that's science. Like the best aspect of life that you can think of are presented by science today. So like there's a lot of great stuff being done by science. science today so like there's a lot of great stuff being done by science don't let uh shady greedy uh assholes at the uh at the very kind of top that are communicating science as part of our government be somehow connected to what is the essence of science so that that to me like hurts me in this conversation about vaccines is that like somehow it's like uh it's it's somehow leading to a mistrust in like all the amazing things that science has brought us yeah there's

also a problem with people like him where they say things they say these statements yeah these uh these statements that you're you're led to believe that they have an understanding of the situation and they clearly can tell you where it's going and what's possible and where we're at with the virus. But then it turns out they're 100% wrong. But then they come up with a new statement and you're supposed to believe that. Remember in the beginning he was saying

that masks are ineffective. He was saying there's no asymptomatic transmission of the virus there's all these different statements they were saying that it's just when they don't know they never say we don't know they don't say this is very confusing and we're trying to figure it out as we go along and this is the best course of action currently under the current amount of right certainty be right There's there's so many wrong ways that the communication has been done First of all, this is true for a lot of scientists at the top is they're talking down to people

Right, and I'm allergic to this Fauci certainly is he's he is as if he is bringing down the Ten Commandments From the talk about it in a third person. He said, if you criticize Andrew Fauci, you're criticizing science. It's ego. At the end of the day, it's ego. And ego is the thing that destroys all awesome things. If you let ego get in the way, that's always going to destroy things. So I'm sure if Fauci was an excellent scientist for most of his life, the higher and higher you get in a position, especially administrative positions, that power starts getting to you.

Well, he's also been, he's used to communicating for most of his career without the internet. Right. You got to think, like, he was the guy who was the head of the United States response to the AIDS crisis. And he was the guy who was responsible, like, I don't know what his exact role was in prescribing AZT for people who had AIDS, which turned out to be disastrous. Okay. So, you know, I don't know the actual decisions. I'm sure he might have, there've been a lot of things we're not saying that made him a great scientist. The point is he's not a great communicator of science. So what we

need now, or certainly a great leader. And what we need now is a great leader to communicate the current data available on the vaccines, as far as I understand. Objectively. Objectively. Like from everything I see, and that's why like Brett Weinstein stands on his own with like an army of mainstream media against him sort of communicating what are the different options out there, like ivermectin, one of them. He may very well be wrong. I tend to think the effectiveness of ivermectin will not be as high as he predicts. I think the effectiveness of ivermectin has only been really proven in terms of prophylactic. As a prophylactic, I think it has a high level of effectiveness according to some of the studies

that they've done, like out of Argentina and a few other places where they did it with frontline workers. I think the studies, and some of them have been shown to be not great studies. I don't know. There's challenges to that. The point is not enough studies have been done. It should be a long time ago. There should have been large-scale studies done, and it should have been treated as a serious alternative to the vaccine.

Or at least studied as a serious alternative. Studied as a serious alternative. And then on the vaccine side, I mean, it all comes down to effectiveness. Which is more effective, the vaccine or ivermectin? That should be studied really well. There's really good data on the vaccine now. There's the ability to collect really good data on the vaccine, but the way it's being collected is very shady in terms of breakthrough cases and not being measured well. And on the flip side, the reporting of when the use of the vaccine leads to side effects is not done well, like people are over-reporting it. Over-reporting?

Well, we don't know. The point is they're free to just say, you're free to report a death because of the vaccine. Like there's some crazy number being reported death because. Talking about the VAERS report. Yeah, the VAERS. Yeah, that, that database. Like that's not good data collection because you basically, again, something like Q could lead like armies of people to report stuff.

Yeah, that is a real problem, right? If someone decided to misinform people purposely and then talk about the under-reporting of side effects and what's really going on and how the long-term effects have been demonstrated but they're holding that information from you and then people start leaking that. Yeah, and the final result is nobody trusts anything so you don't know what to do and then um what like how are you supposed to

proceed forward and then government kind of uh continues uh wanting to gain more and more power by sort of doing actions like lockdowns and enforcing vaccinations and all those kinds of things because that allows you to grow government. And the whole thing is just, it feels like it's not heading towards a solution. To me, there's a few obvious solutions from the very beginning. There should have been the world's largest infrastructure project for testing. There should be at-home testing every single day from May of 2020. Everybody should be, it's super cheap, less than a dollar to manufacture tests taken every single day. And then that gives you, that data is not being collected. It gives you complete knowledge and freedom to make your own decisions whether to go out or not.

Well, there's the other problem is that as soon as there's a crisis, then the government changes its position from working for the people, people that are elected to work for you to try to make life better and more organized, to someone who controls people and tells them what to do because of the safety of the masses. And this is not a debatable issue. They get to decide what the state, like, look, what's going on in Australia right now. Australia is fucking madness. They have very, very few deaths, very few cases, and they've got everything locked down. They have places in supermarkets and

stores roped off where you can't go into them because they're non-essential areas of a store. Like someone sent me some photos of these areas of stores with like party supplies and things like that. They literally have like a rope around it and a sign that says, these are non-essential goods. You are forbidden for going into this area. This store is only for essential items. And the number of deaths over there and the number of cases is very low. But they're trying in a very draconian way to eliminate any possible future.

They want to keep people in their houses. They're going to circle. The military is circling over houses and yelling out at people at bullhorns, get back in your house. It's fucking crazy. Well, I do. I mean, I'd love to hear what you think the solution is. From my understanding, and it's very limited understanding, but I think you should definitely not have any kind of vaccine passports. I don't trust the government enough to allow any kind of control

of your ability to travel and your whereabouts. I do not trust them. That said, I've looked at quite a bit of the data. I may be wrong on this. I talked to Brett. I talked to Sam Harris. I think it's a wise choice to take the vaccine if you're at all concerned about ending up in a hospital. So if you have any kind of conditions that might lead to- You're talking about if someone's obese or if someone's older? Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you are a person who's a high-risk group, it's probably a good idea.

My parents have been vaccinated. But it's hard to know what's – I know quite a few people that COVID really leveled that are not a high-risk group. They're in reasonably good shape, not obese. Were they run down when they got it? That's – I mean, I don't know. See, I know a lot of people that got hit really hard, and I also know a lot of people who brushed it off like it was nothing. It's hard to tell.

It's hard. That's very difficult. That's the scary thing about this. It's very confusing. And also when you're dealing with different variants, it's very confusing because you have different results. There is a different impact on people. And then there's this new

Lambda variant that supposedly is immune to the vaccine. Yeah. So you're going to get this kind of influenza flu type of situation where there's going to be, I mean, that that's a one possible future is we're going to keep getting variants. So you can't just like hope that the vaccine will somehow destroy the virus. You might every single year start getting variants. We have to figure out a set of policies that allow us to open up the society. But can you remember in recent memory any topic of conversation that has divided people more than this vaccine topic or made people more angry than this vaccine topic well there's trump yeah it's close it's close so it's close let's see global warming no no global warming it seems like unless

it's happening right now the thing is it's like you're not it's not a it is affecting you but then you go in your house and the ac's on you get mad but it's not not the same kind of mad like there's a mad that people have about vaccines, particularly people that have taken the vaccine. They want everybody to take the vaccine. They're like they did. Even people that are obese and don't take care of themselves, they somehow or another feel like they've done their responsibility. Right. So you're right because the topic of the vaccine actually, there's very few people in the middle.

Right. Like very few people like being open minded. Right. To everything. Yeah. Most people are like emotionally saying, fuck you and your vaccine or saying. Fuck you, take the vaccine. Take the vaccine.

Yeah. It's very uncomfortable to be in the middle of this. And it's also, it's one of those things where people have a position and then they get very emotional and very angry supporting their position, defending their position, and attacking the other position. Well, you're either attacking my family's health or you're attacking my freedom. That's the way they think about it. It's not just that. You may be supporting the pharmaceutical industrial complex that may or may not be killing people. You know what I mean?

It's like you get into these weird conversations with people when it comes to that. Have you ever heard the former vice president of Pfizer talk about the vaccine? I'll send you a link. It's fucking crazy. This guy has some very strong opinions about it and said he would have resigned if he was working there when they were releasing the vaccines. People have super strong opinions about this. And I think over time, we're going to find out what side was correct. We're going to find out.

It's going to take a while to really sort through all the data and figure out have the side effects been overblown? Have the side effects been underreported? What exactly does this stuff do to you in the long term? Because right now we don't know. The problem is we live in an age where we don't look back. So yes, we'll know. There'll be documents and data released who was right on this,

whether masks were an effective solution, whether vaccines were effective solutions. But there'll be a new problem. There'll be a new problem and nobody will give a shit. Well, there'll be something that obfuscates it, right? There'll be something that overwhelms us in the moment where we won't think about what happened six months ago or a year ago. So we have to learn to solve things now. And like there's plenty of data.

If it was done correctly, there's plenty of data on vaccines. If it was done correctly, there should have been already plenty of good data. If it was done correctly, there's plenty of data on vaccines. If it was done correctly, there should have been already plenty of good data. But there's no data on vaccines in terms of long-term side effects. Right. But you can, I mean, there's no data on most things of its nature. Like you can use, there's long-term data on vaccines for other things. They're not mRNA. But the mRNA one, the thing is about is the spike protein. The spike protein. And what the spike protein does to the body. Right.

But there's also, very importantly, not good long-term data on the effects of COVID, the virus. And the, I mean, using basic medical intuition and the destructive nature of COVID, the virus is is worse than the vaccines we don't know that for sure but like it might be it might be it might be the long covid thing is freaky to people and what's weird is that some people uh long covid is actually mitigated by the vaccine so people that have had long covid and then get vaccinated afterwards apparently it helps them with long COVID and then you have

whatever the fuck long COVID is I don't even like saying that that sounds kind of badass to me long COVID? yeah I don't know it sounds like I would hope and this is one thing that I'm kind of disappointed that there would be some sort of

a push for health a push for people to change their diet and start a rigorous exercise routine. And, you know, one of the things that we are absolutely sure of is that the people that get hit the hardest are the people that are in poor shape, people that are obese, people that have underlying health conditions, a lot of them that could be mitigated by exercise and diet and a loss of weight. You know, there's so many people that have all sorts of health problems that could be mitigated by becoming healthy and losing weight. Yeah.

And there's no push for this at all. It's only pharmaceutical interventions. That's all you're hearing. And that's nuts. I would love Biden or Fauci to just tell everybody to get on a treadmill. I'll go do jiu-jitsu. It's putting people in this position where you leave them completely disempowered.

The only thing you can do is take a shot. This is the only thing you can do. Well, there's probably some room in the middle where someone should say, this is probably going to be exacerbated by the fact that you're obese. So if you lost weight and you got healthier, you'd have a way better time of it if you caught it. And you're going to have a way better life, period. And wouldn't this be a good time to do this now, now that we realize that we're in a health crisis?

be a good time to do this now, now that we realize that we're in a health crisis. But there's no discussion of this. No. And it's so frustrating for someone, and yourself too, someone who takes care of themselves, someone who does exercise on a regular basis. Yeah. I would love to see those studies, like how much cardio you do per week versus the effect of COVID on you. Right.

That'd be interesting. I mean, yeah, ultimately that has to do with the long-term health care, like being in shape, being healthy, all those kinds of things. This is anecdotal in nature, but the people that I know that don't exercise got hit hardest. The people I know that are in really good shape got the easiest time of it. This is a good plug for jiu-jitsu. It's a good plug for running.

It's a good plug for exercise and diet and just metabolic health, taking care of yourself. You know, also different stressors like heat and cold and the different things that people do. There was a good paper that was written about sauna and COVID-19. It's really interesting about how the temperature that your body can tolerate, you know, in terms of like sauna is far higher than what COVID can tolerate. And as a mitigating therapy, heat therapy in sauna bathing, there's, I'll send it to you. Very interesting study. I wonder what the effects therapy, heat therapy in sauna bathing. I'll send it to you.

Very interesting study. I wonder what the effects of ice bath are. Yeah, same thing. Extreme temperatures? Extreme temperatures producing anti-inflammatory cytokines that can help you with all sorts of issues. Yeah, Huberman is really big on the ice bath.

He's been doing a lot of that. I don't know if you've talked to him about it. But you know, Wim Hof proved during a scientific study where they injected him with E. coli, and he controlled it with these wild-ass breathing exercises that he does. Did you ever read that study? No. Combined with the cold?

Yeah, they did it at a university. No, not combined with the cold. Just his breathing exercises. Interesting. Find out that study that they did with Wim Hof and what university it was at. But he was trying to explain that you can regulate your immune system with breathing exercises, these crazy deep breathing exercises. And most people hear that and they go, what kind of fucking nonsense is that?

But he proved it. They monitored him and they injected him with E. coli. And I believe within 15 minutes his body had fought it off. Yeah. There's so many mysteries to the human body. Breath is like the big one. That's a big one. Yeah.

Because we know for a fact that it does have an impact on your immune system. It sounds like complete horseshit, woo-woo, new age nonsense. I mean, you had Hickson in here. Yeah. He understood something about the breath for performance. Well, I think for performance, but also for control of your emotions. And you can achieve these states of harmony with all the systems of your body where you have some sort of autonomous control over it. He's a wild man.

He's a wild man. W. He's a wild man. He's a wild man. Wim Hof is a wild man. What the Iceman Wim Hof is capable of, was long viewed as scientifically impossible. It wasn't until the first, how do you say that? Radboud? Radboud University study in 2011 that things really kicked off. The studies show that by using his method, Wim was able to voluntarily influence his autonomic nervous system,

something which until then was thought impossible. This groundbreaking finding published in PNAS and Nature established credibility, quite literally rewrote biology textbooks and piqued scientists' curiosity. What does it say, though, that they did, though? There's actually some papers that showed... Yeah, there it is.

Voluntary activation of the sympathetic nervous system, attenuation of the innate immune response in humans. So this is the study. This is the very same study where they injected him? Sure. Are you sure? I'm not 100% sure. You think he'd be the only subject? Well, I think.

Yeah, I typed in Wittenhoff study, you know, and this is the top thing that popped up. Right, here it is. It talks about cytokines and inflammatory. I didn't see anything about an injection, but I didn't search the – I'm trying to look at it fast. Right. It just doesn't name him specifically, but this is the actual study. Yeah, they don't like – It's in there, I think, somewhere.

They don't usually like – There it is. Oh, interesting. They don't usually like to name subjects. Well, the thing about him is that he has a gigantic history of these breathing exercises. So he's become an expert at it, and he's finely tuned. It's not like someone who's like, well, I hope this works. Like he has a very strong belief in the ability to regulate his immune system.

Some of that is mental, right? Yeah, right? How much of it is? Say that it is. This endotoxin was obtained from the pharmaceutical development section of the National Institutes of Health, supplied as a lyophilized powder, and was reconstituted in 5 milliliters of saline at 0.9% for the injection and vortex mixed for at least 20 minutes after reconstitution. The LPS solution was administered as an IV bolus injection at a dose of two nanograms per kilogram body weight in one, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Placed in an antecubital vein to permit infusion of 0.9 NACI solution. The subjects received, boy, there's a lot of fucking scientific terminology here.

I was just showing you the E. coli part of this up here. So this is the study. This is like in extreme scientific terms. Yeah, like the details of exactly what they did. Yeah, continuous monitoring of blood pressure and blood sampling, heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate, oxygen saturation data were recorded from a Philips MP50 patient monitor every 30 seconds by a custom in-house developed data recording system

starting one hour before administration of LPS until discharge from the intensive care unit eight hours after LPS administration. This is really interesting shit. So this is like thoroughly monitoring. I like how they started As a single like gorilla specimen. Yeah. That's some fucking alien. I mean he also like he holds the world record or he held the world record of swimming under ice. Yeah. You know and he's in all this stuff is with breath work and his ability to control his mind and his emotions and to be completely in tune with his body.

And you know he was a yoga instructor so he's been a yogi before that. And, you know, his whole life study has been about his body and about balance and being able to control all of his systems. And he's such an intense human. Like when you're around Wim Hof and he's talking to you about breathing and it's like you get a sense that there's like this energy that that this guy has this power this guy has and so you think about that in terms of like what he's able to do with this study ago okay well how much this is applicable to a regular person and how long does it take to get is this like a black belt in jiu-jitsu like I can show you an arm bar but can you do

it to me you know what I mean like if you if you show a white belt an arm bar I take some guy go hey I hey, I'm going to show you how to do an armbar and then you're going to put me in your guard and then you're going to try to do an armbar. It's two very different things. So, but black belt, you can get, there's black belts and there's black belts. Right. You can get a black belt in 10 years, say, but then-

There's a Hicks and Gracie black belt. Can anyone become a Gordon Ryan, a Hicks and Gracie? Can anyone become that? Not everyone. Can anyone become W Gordon Ryan, a Hickson Gracie? Can anyone become that? Not everyone. Can anyone become Wim Hof? Wim Hof, right. Like how much time does it take to have that kind of control of your body? See, I tend to believe, I'm with Donahar on this,

I tend to believe basically almost anybody can become that. I mean, there's a few ingredients, but like with the right coaching, with the right sort of focus I think maybe not the greatest ever but you can become pretty damn good well you have to have physical resiliency in jiu-jitsu but meaning that your body has to hold up through the training and that's the difference between jiu-jitsu and say breathing exercises the breathing exercises the the risk of injury isn't there. The thing about jiu-jitsu is there's constant strain on the discs and the joints,

and there's guys that just aren't going to make it. And there's quite a few, in fact, especially if you train the way that the Donner Death Squad does. I mean, these guys like Gordon Ryan train seven days a week, 365 days a year. They don't take off days for Christmas. They don't take off days for New Year's, Easter. Go fuck yourself. Get in here on the mats.

And Donahue doesn't take days off, so they don't take days off either. By the way, can I just say, it's probably partially your influence, but they're all a little bit separate. Mom and Dad are fighting, but they're all moving to Austin, Texas, which I love. Craig's already here. I'd like to give a shout-out to Gabe Tuttle, I guess, from 10th Planet.

Yeah, I love Gabe. I've been training at that 10th Planet. If anyone wants to train with me, it's 10th Planet. It's a great school if you're a beginner, too. You should definitely check it out. Craig's already here. You may already know him from his OnlyFans account. Subscribe. Does he really have an OnlyFans account. Subscribe.

Does he really have an OnlyFans account? I think he just talks, yells at people for having bad jujits, so I haven't actually checked out. So he actually has an OnlyFans gift to subscribe to? Yeah. I don't know if it's paid or not. We're giving a lot of air

for Craig's OnlyFans account but here it is he looks he looks good in a leopard speedo i always come second objectively speaking that's hilarious 1000 likes a guy that had a serious reaction to the vaccine serious like his whole body filled up with fluid it was nasty yeah and he never took the second shot because of it. Did you ever see the videos of it? I didn't see any videos. His lymph nodes were leaking into the side of his body. And he got to the point where it was like a water balloon.

You could touch his body. And he was in bed for like 10 or 11 days after the vaccine. So he's the first person that made me kind of think twice about the vaccine because he's obviously one of the best in a person who is in one of the greatest shapes. Yeah. Like possible. Right. He's elite level, elite level shape. And the fact that he has such an extreme reaction to the vaccine, that's yeah. That makes you think twice. Yeah. But again, you know, it's anecdotal. You have to look at large-scale data and the large-scale data is not being communicated but large-scale data doesn't help and the whole idea that's anecdotal doesn't help if you're the guy who got laid out yeah yeah no

for you on the personal level but he uh so i really i love training with him can't wait to train with donahar because they value i mean people, people might not know jiu-jitsu well, but they value wrestling. I think Donahar posted something about, like, jiu-jitsu is not just about techniques, but it's an opportunity for, like, self-expression. And I always saw martial arts that way, like an opportunity to create art with your – There's a reason why it's called martial arts. Yeah, it sounds pretentious, but for me, wrestling and – how do you put it politely? But like wrestling style dominance was always exciting. Yeah.

Like through technique dominating an opponent. Right. yeah like through technique dominating an opponent right and and and there's a there's certain things like chokes and an arm break like breaks were always exciting to me that's why like i've never been still i'm not uh a fan of um twisting footwork so like heel hooks and all that kind of stuff it's beautiful and you need to understand it it's a really important part of the game but i don't consider it art for me like if i was a painter i wouldn't use because it's to me it still feels a little like playing footsie what versus you're losing me right now yeah i know but we're we're different uh so you're a different uh but it's a technique what do you mean so why that specific technique do you think

so is not artistic but like a choke is? I'm not – sorry, to be clear, I'm not judging other artists creating with that. Obviously, it's one of the most important submissions to understand. Craig works on it really well. But just like Craig said and Donahue says the same thing, like it's like 100 to 1,000 times harder to understand how to attack with footlocks than to defend them. I want to understand the defensive game. You have to understand the entire attack with footlocks and to defend them i want to understand the

defensive game you have to understand the entirety of the systems to defend but to be a master at attacking is just not something that pulls me like pulls at me from an artistic perspective is that also because of your background that you didn't grow up and develop with leg locks but i was familiar with sambo so there's a tradition inbo. But I just fell in love with the artistry of wrestling and judo, which is so much more about, I would say it's about throws. It just has a very different look. I would say it's about the upper body. Maybe that's the way to put it.

There's hand fighting i mean that's the way craig talks about is like foot locks is just like hand fighting but with feet so i just liked hand fighting with hands with hands yeah did you ever strike have you done any striking yeah i love hitting the heavy bag yeah have you done any sparring or anything like that? Yeah, a little bit. A little bit? Yeah. But not like seriously. I love hitting things. Occasionally you'll see a fighter that does something very artistic and striking that sort of elevates the standard.

Did you see the Derek Lewis-Cyril Ghosn fight? No. You need to see that. There's a knockout. Derek Lewis got a knockout right no Cyril gone beat the shit out of him oh shit he shut him out he shut him out like it was a shutout for I think I think he stopped him in the third but I mean Cyril gone who's six foot five 247 pounds moves like 170 pounder-pounder. It's crazy.

He's bouncing like Wonderboy, like bouncing like this the entire fight, bouncing, throwing feints, like completely changed the standard of heavyweight striking, and I'm not exaggerating. I watched it three times. I watched it today, in fact. I watched it in the gym today while I was working out. So better than in terms of movement, in terms of he's, like, the best moving heavyweight?

There's no question he is the best moving heavyweight I've ever seen. No question. The best moving. It doesn't mean that, like, this is the way he fights. Like, look at how he, like, every time Derek Lewis goes to set up to move towards him, Cyril Ghosn is nowhere to be found. He lit Derek Lewis up, man. And every time Derek Lewis comes to him, like, look at that jab.

I mean, his movement in terms of closing the distance is spectacular. Look at that front leg, front kick to the body. And I was severely impressed. I mean, he had beaten a lot of really good guys. Like he beat Jairzinho Rosenstreich. He beat Junior Dos Santos, whose best days are behind him. But, you know, he's beaten some very, very good fighters. But to watch the way he beat Derek Lewis, who's a legit one-punch knockout threat, and the technical acumen that he showed the skill the technique the footwork the movement the understanding of distance the ability to control

everything that happened inside the octagon was spectacular that's art it changed my opinion of how would a fight with him and Francis and Ghana would go down at first my thought is that Francis and Ghana has the nuclear option with everybody he has such fucking power. So does Derek Lewis. So does Derek Lewis. But Francis Ngannou... He has the hydrogen bomb.

Derek Lewis has the atomic. They both have crazy one-punch power. But when you watch Cyril Ghosn, you go, man, how the fuck does anybody... It's like Francis has excellent technique. Francis has ridiculous power. But he doesn't have the movement that Ghosn has. The question is, can Francis deal with the movement and maybe threaten him in a way that Derek Lewis didn't figure out how to?

And that's what makes the fight so interesting. Yeah. But the way that guy moves is something special, man. You only saw little highlights of it there, but I've watched it pretty carefully in the three times that I've watched it. I can't think of a single heavyweight that I've ever seen move like that. And there's no flaws in his clinch game. He understands how to avoid the takedown.

He understands pummeling. He understands distance and where he's safe, where he's not safe, and what to look for when he's pulling out of the clinch to not get hit. It's really amazing, man. He's on a fucking real high level, and he's undefeated. So I think he's 9-0 now or 10-0. So he's going to get a title shot? Well, he's the interim heavyweight champion now.

Oh, that was for the heavyweight championship. Which is weird, right? Because Ngannou just won the fucking title. He's not injured. It's just like the UFC and Ngannou are at some sort of a weird impasse. So they decided to make an interim title, which brings up all sorts of ethical discussions about what is an interim title. If the organization could

just decide, oh, the negotiations aren't going so well, we're just going to have an interim title. How many months after? When did he fight Stipe? When did Francis Ngannou fight Stipe? Let's take a guess. That was 2020. Was it? I think so. It was definitely during the pandemic because it was at the—

I think it was November or something like that. It was at the Apex Center. March 27th. Of 2021? Yes. Yeah. It feels like way longer ago. Five months ago.

Yeah, five. Okay, five is long. That's kind of crazy. Yeah. How much time do you give a guy before, you know, he defends his title? The difference in boxing is so different. Like boxers go the long stretch. And boxers enter into negotiations and negotiate.

Like Caleb Plant and Canelo Alvarez, they've been dancing back and forth as to whether or not they're supposed to fight. And the negotiations fall apart and they come back together again. And now they're supposedly in negotiations again for November. You know, boxing is so different. Like, the boxers have more control over what happens because it's basically just boxing. The UFC is a star in and of itself. Like, the organization is a star. And to be the UFC heavyweight champion is a huge thing.

But ultimately, you're a champion in the UFC, which is huge. It's not the same as like a boxer. Like Terrence Crawford is a great example, right? He's a world champion boxer, and people want to see Terrence Crawford fight. They don't give a fuck if he's fighting for Bob Arum or if he's fighting for Golden Boy. That doesn't mean jack shit. Wait, the UFC, I mean, in some sense also has a little bit of that. In some sense, nobody cares if Ngannou is a champ or not or interim championship.

They just want to see the fight too. Oh, yeah. If Ngannou wasn't the champ, if no one was the champ, if they stripped both of them and Ngannou fought gone for five rounds, it would be, I don't know about that. There's still something nice, I guess, to winning the championship. Fuck yeah, when they strap that belt around you. It's giant. The champ is the champ, but it's just weird.

The interim thing is weird. I think interims should really only be when a guy can't defend because he's badly injured. Ngannou's not injured, so it's just weird. The interim thing is weird. I think interims should really only be when a guy can't defend because he's badly injured. Yeah, injury only. And Gano's not injured, so it's just weird. Or maybe like three years off or something like that. But that's the difference between, you know, like there's no rules as to what they can and can't do. They can kind of like make their own rules. It's whatever the fans will put up with.

Right, exactly. Which is kind of the honest way to do it, I guess. Because then the fans will complain. Will they, though? You keep giving them good fights every weekend. Exactly. How much will they really complain? And the fans kind of love complaining anyway.

And the fighter only has a small window of opportunity. Yeah. But I don't know what the deal was. I mean, I'm not privy to the negotiations. But you're saying one of the best moving heavyweights. No, no, the best. He's the best. Cyril Gant is the best moving heavyweight I've ever seen.

I've never seen a heavyweight move like him. It's just his fucking understanding of distance and his use of feints. And every time Derek tried to swing at him, he was nowhere to be found. He was whoop, just slid out, and then he's right back swing at him he was nowhere to be found he was whoop just slid out and then he's right back in on him he wasn't running like he would get back out and then go right back in his face that's like my favorite um probably my favorite part of mixed martial arts is people that move in interesting ways move well in interesting ways I was thinking um you know Lionel Messi is by any chance? Sure. So the soccer player.

He's my favorite. Talking about things that divide the populace with the vaccines, it's probably Messi versus Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the greatest player of all time or currently playing. That divides people too. What is the division? They're just both incredible. But what is it like? Who's better, LeB or michael jordan is it like that kind of people get very passionate about this

they get extremely passionate uh who do you think is better messy by far i don't care by far so what so sometimes so it has to do with movement. It has to do with where you put priorities. The other people in the running for greatest ever, I don't even think Ronaldo's in the top five, but is Maradona, Pele, more like... Is this a shots fired

moment right here? That was for sure. Was that shots fired? I'm out of the loop when it comes to soccer, but I feel like you just made some bold statements. Yeah, I think the Brazilian Ronaldo is better than Cristiano. So Cristiano is much better looking. He's much harder working. He's an incredible soccer player, one of the greatest ever,

just not in the top five for me. Messi moves like nothing I have ever seen. And this is, I think a lot of people agree with this. This is moments of genius unlike anybody else. This everybody agrees on. And the question is how much do you value moments of genius in terms of movement? Just like how many things you're able to create,

they're like, what the fuck did I just watch? Right, right. And I value that above all else. Now, one of the reasons why until like a month ago, people still said Messi might not be the greatest ever is because he's never taken his national team, Argentina, to a major, like a World Cup win or the Copa America, like the major international win.

He's taken them to the final a bunch of times but never won. And so that's like LeBron questions. How many times, if ever, did you take your team, especially when the team is not great, did you make them step up to win the championship? Right. And until – so he won the South American championship, which is a huge championship, for the first time with Argentina last month month which solidified him as the the greatest anyway i'm i'm making some enemies now but the main point is the movement i think everyone agrees he is uh in like um when you watch him it's it's it's art and i was thinking in the same way who is that like if you didn't see the face or the uniform, if you just saw the silhouette, you can tell it's Messi.

And I was thinking, who is that for MMA? Mighty Mouse. Mighty Mouse in his prime is the greatest I've ever seen. See, I was thinking Anderson Silva. Nah, well, Anderson Silva was fantastic in his prime, no doubt about it. But Mighty Mouse, the only problem with Mighty Mouse is that he's in a weight class that's very small. There's not a lot of guys that weigh 125 pounds, so there's not the same talent pool that Anderson Silva dealt with. Anderson Silva dealt with

much more danger in terms of one-punch strikers. But the argument could be made that Anderson Silva, when he was at the top, is the greatest of all time. And then the argument could be made that Anderson Silva when he was at the top is the greatest of all time and then the argument could be made that Mighty Mouse is the greatest of all time Mighty Mouse just destroyed people and destroyed people in a way like they they looked overwhelmed and confused like they couldn't touch him he his movement and his ability to mix the wrestling and the striking and the submissions together flawlessly and seamlessly was incredible. I feel like fighters have these bursts of time. They may last three years, five years, seven years, whatever it is when they're able to maintain the championship level RPMs. And you've got to judge them inside that time.

And it's very subjective, obviously, whether it's Anderson or whether it's Jon Jones or whether it's Khabib Nurmagomedov is a very, very good candidate because, in my opinion, Khabib is probably the best candidate because Khabib, not only did he not lose a fight, he barely lost a round. He lost maybe one round to Conor, and it seemed like he was just taking the round off to kind of preserve his energy so he could finish Conor afterwards. And he did. And he wound up finishing him. Khabib has never been in trouble in a fight. Michael Johnson tagged him once. Michael Johnson is a guy that doesn't get nearly enough respect. Yeah, he's had some rough

losses, but Michael Johnson knocked out Dustin Poirier with one punch. Michael Johnson was a fucking dangerous, dangerous man, and still is. And he tagged Khabib. He probably had Khabib in the most trouble ever in a fight. He had him wobbled. But Khabib ultimately won that fight and destroyed him. I mean, was pounding on him. He was telling him, quit now, quit now, you know I deserve title shot, beating the shit out of him, and then put him in a Kimura and destroyed him. I mean, was pounding on him. Was telling him, quit now, quit now. You know I deserve title shot. Beating the shit out of him. And then put him in a Kimura and tapped him. But it's arguable that Khabib's the greatest of all time.

It's arguable that Mighty Mouse is. It's a debate. It's a lively debate. But in terms of the uniqueness of movement. Mighty Mouse. Because I want to combine that like this is this is dangerous but

like the when McGregor knocked out Aldo Jose Aldo yeah I mean that he deserves a lot of that

that's same as Messi like at the highest at the arguably at the peak of their like performing career

Aldo like be able to just make him look like they're a beginner for a brief moment, that's worth something. That's a moment of magic. It was a moment of magic for sure. The question with Conor after that fight, there's so much that leads.

fight it's there's so much that leads there's so much that has to has to be in motion for you to be a conor mcgregor and for you to be a conor mcgregor that has the kind of balls to like tear up jose aldo's picture and steal his belt and go on this press conference tour with him where you're going all over the world and you're talking crazy shit and climbing inside of Aldo's head to the point where the one moment where they close the octagon door and like, oh, my God, it's real. Conor was elevated by that moment, and Aldo seemed like he was dwarfed by the moment. Exactly. The moment crushed him.

By the way, Conor last year, highest paid athlete, Messi second. I saw the list. Yeah, but does it count? Because Connor is highest paid because he made a bunch of money off of whiskey. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's kind of, he's the highest paid athlete. Kind of counts. He is an athlete.

And then Messi is straight up, straight up poor performance. Just soccer. They get paid a lot in soccer. I can only imagine. Like annual, it's over 100, a lot of people get paid over 100 million per year. 153 million last year, it says. Woo! Woo!

And he just got, it's really heartbreaking, he just got transferred from the team he's been with for 20, 21 years in Barcelona. He got transferred to Paris. Why? There's a lot of people criticizing the whole machine of modern soccer. He wanted to stay he i think he wanted to he said he would accept a half um like 50 cut you know only get paid half he doesn't care he wanted to stay with the team but i think there's something about just drama and administration i wasn't following it but they're saying it's modern soccer. They don't give a shit about legacy and the players. There's a machine.

That's a little bit probably why they couldn't afford him anymore. The club's debt is at $1.6 billion. Whoa. I don't even know how that works. How does that work? That seems like someone's done a really bad job accounting. But he is at the peak. He's done a really bad job accounting. But he is at the peak of he's been winning player of the year.

Even after 20 years, he's still at the peak of his performance. It's kind of like the Tom Brady from Patriots to Tampa Bay. The funny thing, he wins the Super Bowl again. It's the same kind of thing, but it's just heartbreaking because he unlike a lot of players he's been for the same team there's something to that loyalty that's valuable it's always nice in any sport to see an athlete stay with the same people McGregor's kind of like that right yeah stay with the same people so it could be yeah could be could be was that through and through like did you see that thing with Ronaldo where um they put a coca Coca-Cola in front of him,

and he pushed it aside, and he picked up a bottle of water and said, agua, and he only drinks water? Because apparently he's meticulous about his diet and what goes into his body. And Coca-Cola's sales tanked. Their stock market price tanked. It cost them like, I'm sure they bounced back, but it cost their market share something like a billion dollars. Just him doing that.

Four billion. Four billion? Four billion by saying water. I like water. I'm drinking water. The reach of soccer in the world, like global influence, is huge, especially when you have these icons. And he is, unlike Messi, messes like hides himself much more is a private life it's

like really happy with all those a baller right not no ball in like the in the PG way right he doesn't do like the he's he's wholesome baller Oh wholesome ball he's not doing coke and... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's Diego Maradona. Oh, he was crazy? Who was Argentina. I think there's coke. And that was back when coke wasn't cool.

I think there's a lot of drugs. The personality is a... Is he still alive? He's still alive. He still has opinions. Oh. What does that mean? Meaning, like, he has a voice

in Argentina and talks about Messi and so on so Lionel Messi is Argentinian and Diego Maradona

is Argentinian and just the way Messi moves has some of the elements that Maradona does too there's like these like you know

moments of genius like Maradona has that famous hand of God goal in the World Cup. He passed away, by the way. He did? I thought I heard of that. He did.

Yeah, in November. In November. Okay. Heart attack. I didn't hear that. Heart attack? How old was he? 60.

Down, down, down, down. Following brain surgery. Down, down. Oh, following brain surgery. Oh, Jesus. He lived surgery. Down, down. Oh, following brain surgery. Oh, Jesus. He lived his life fully. Yeah. But he had the hand of God goal where the ref didn't notice it,

but he knocked the ball into goal with his hand. But he made it look like it's a header. Oh, no. You got to win by any means necessary, Joe. And they don't review that? Not in the 70s or whatever it was. Yeah, I told you. It was back when they don't review that? Not in the 70s or whatever it was. Yeah, I told you. It was back when Coke wasn't cool.

It was in the 70s. No, it wasn't in the 70s. It might have been 90s. Okay, sorry. 70s? Diego Armando Maradona. How could he be playing in the 70s? I feel like I'm still 15.

Yeah, that's true. I'm still stuck in the 90s. He played in 86 with that but also 90 and I think I think also after that yeah one of the greatest ever hand to God is this the is that it

unforgettable England moments yeah celebrating it he also has him and Messi both have these goals. Why doesn't it, you couldn't even see it from the video. This guy's complaining that he hit it with his hand, right? Hand of God goal, yeah. It's very fast. Let's see.

There's a kick. Hmm. See, so how would you judge that on that I think they zoom in and they it's obvious it's a hand can you zoom in enhance do they have enhance

that was it let me see that again it's been absolutely proven that he uses hands but there's no review here we go let's watch absolutely proven that he uses hands. But there's no review. Here we go. Let's watch. There's the hand.

It might even be like forearm kind of. Anything below your elbow is kind of his hand. Definitely touched his arm. And they counted that? Yep. Hand of God. He also has the famous, that people really love that, the hymn and Messi, but he has a really famous one where he runs from the other side

and dribbles past everybody else and scores the goal. That's really difficult to do at the highest level of competition. The amount of gambling on soccer must be insane. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Is it legal gambling? Do they have a lot of legal gambling on it?

I don't know. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's almost all legal now. Well, now. To an extent. Right? I don't know. Without going deep back into Google search, I don't think it's been deeply illegal in Europe.

Well, they have legalized sports betting in New York now, right? Not in – I heard someone say that the other day, and I want to correct him. I think so. I don't know if it's in New York yet, right? Not in... I heard someone say that the other day and I don't know if it's in New York yet. New Jersey, yes. It's coming. Pennsylvania, yes. I think they're passing a law. I think they're making... I remember reading an article about it.

They're planning on making sports betting legal in New York. I type it in. It says, sports betting legal in New York. I type it in. It says it's sports betting legal in New York. The only way to legally place a sports wager in New York is to go to one of the four full-service commercial upstate casinos operated by an upstate Indian nation and place an in-person bet.

Is it coming to New York? So they're seeking, like, the new thing that's happening is online betting because that's what's happening everywhere. So that's what's going to happen. I think they're trying, like, the new thing that's happening is online betting. That's what's happening everywhere. So that's what's going to happen. I think they're trying to get it passed. I don't think it's in New York yet. Interesting. Interesting.

But they have passed weed, I read, and it's still not, you can't buy it yet. But it's just decriminalized. Is that what it is? Yeah. But you can buy it in New Jersey. So you can cross the bridge and turn the app on and make your bet and then go back home, which people do all the time. Oh, that's what you can do.

You have to be GPS located where it... Is poker legal now? Playing poker, online poker? That's the same sort of thing. You could always play. It's just a matter of could you play for money? After it became illegal, they started playing for prizes and you could play for free. Ari used to play poker

professionally to supplement his comedy career. He was making more money playing poker than he was doing stand-up. I like those two degenerate communities. He brings the best of both. Well, he's a good poker player. Ari can play. He's smart. He knows

how to play the game and he plays it prudently. He doesn't take stupid bets. He's smart. All right, so I was looking into now. In the 2022 year, it's supposed to be allowed in New York, so it's not yet, but the plan is in place. So that's sports betting, right? They're going to have legalized bookies in New York. That's awesome. You should be able to bet on whatever the fuck you want. sports betting, right? They're going to have legalized bookies in New York. Which I...

This is awesome. You should be able to bet on whatever the fuck you want. The idea is that... I mean, the idea that you're going to protect people from their own impulses to bet is so stupid. It's like, we have Vegas. Like, why is... That's exciting.

Yeah. What are you going to do? I was surprised that... Have you watched the Olympics at all? No, I did not. It's kind of interesting that it seemed not – I still watch the wrestling and Judo and some other stuff. Do you see Gable with the last second victory for the gold medal? Yeah.

Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Named after Dan Gable. I know. It was amazing. You ever see – there's photos of him training or a video of him training with Brock Lesnar a few years ago. Oh, shit.

Brock Lesnar when he was – I think he was thinking about coming back. He's still got, oh, sorry. I should mention, so he has two years of NCAA. So Gable has a choice now because I think he's interested in WWE. Yeah, he's also interested in the UFC. In the UFC. But then he can also go back to college and wait for the Olympics again, which is in only three years.

So he can go back to school, dominate NCAA, get a couple titles if he can. What do you think about that? Get paid! Let's go! They can get paid now. What do you mean? As of last month, college athletes can get paid. Right, but can he get paid like a WWE?

He can get paid paid. Paid, paid, paid? Whoever wants to sign him can pay him. He can pay to any contract. So a college can sign him? It's not the college paying him. It's sponsors. It's a name and likeness deal.

Oh, so all the stuff that used to get them in trouble in the past is now yeah legal yep some players have got a million dollar deals already nice nice high school kids now oh wow how wild is that that changed the whole fucking game huh but the crazy thing is the university is still making fucking billions and they're not making shit from that you know like they're generating massive amounts of money for the universities. And the universities, they're not distributing any of it to the kids. That's crazy.

That's fucked. But that's my argument against the Olympics. Oh, that they're not making enough money. See, I think money is good, but it can get in the way of the purity of the sport. Sure, then let's have no one make money then. Including NBC. Go fuck yourself.

If you want to be pure, let's be pure all the way. Why not just like no advertisement? Let's keep the whole thing pure and make it so that NBC and whoever the fuck airs the Olympics, they're only doing it for the purity of the experience of competition. We will not make any money off the proceeds of any of this, and whatever money is generated at all, we'll donate to charity. So it's all a question.

So first of all, I came on the Joe Rogan Experience to pitch communism to the people. That's why I'm here. Yeah, sorry. Aren't a lot of the sports, though, no one would be watching now. They're not very high-viewed sports, most of the sports in the Olympics.

Unless they're Olympics. Unless they're on in this case Shot put who's lining up to see the fucking shot put Oh did you throw the metal ball really far Yeah Nobody gives a shit You just made some enemies This is probably Did you throw the hammer

Did you really Okay but look at basketball Did you throw that orange ball in the really? Okay, but look at basketball. Did you throw that orange ball in the little net? Hey, stop. People are trying to stop you from throwing it. There's defense. There's strategy involved. Listen to this son of a bitch from Russia.

What about golf? Come over and talk shit about basketball. Is that Olympics? Did you hit a... Golf? Oh, that's ridiculous. Why is there a pool in the Olympics then? They make it exciting.

It only became exciting because the last 2016, they had a run, and they're like, well, this is good TV, so they put it on again. Did you see the karate guy get kicked in the face and win the gold medal because he got knocked out? Yeah, because of you. The other guy hit him too hard. I can't watch the karate or the – It doesn't look right.

It doesn't look like fighting. It looks like – it doesn't look like fighting. It's scoring points. Scoring points, this is a discussion that I've had with people before. That style of karate, it's a very useful tool to know. There's guys like Raymond Daniels who have used that really effectively in kickboxing. There's guys like Michael Venom Page uses it really effectively in MMA. There's an ability to leap in and catch you with things that most guys do not have.

When you've got a guy who's elite at that but then learns the other things, that's a giant bridge to cross that a lot of folks can't – they don't know what to do with a person like that. But if you had to choose, would you take, like said to live, the Russian tank, the gold medalist in freestyle wrestling or the gold medalist in karate? I've always said that wrestling is the cornerstone of mixed martial arts. It's the foundation. Because with the great wrestlers, the great wrestlers can dictate where the fight takes place, whether it's Khabib, whether it's Randy Couture.

I mean, go down the list of all. There's been a ton of great wrestlers, Daniel Cormier, Jon Jones. A lot of great wrestlers have become elite mixed martial arts fighters, and they have a massive advantage. If they have a dominance in wrestling, they have ability to dictate which place the fight takes, where the fight takes place, where it takes place standing up or on the ground. Chuck Liddell would use his wrestling the opposite way. He was a very good wrestler, but he would use his wrestling to make you stand with him. And that advantage, the advantage of being the better wrestler is, I think it's it's the foundation i think it's the most important the most important skill set but there's also something about their

hips or something like that that allows them to learn how to hit hard quickly some of them some of them some of them like you know there's there's guys that just like talking about ben asker yeah i didn't want to say his name so he's gonna come to come down to Austin. We're going to hang out. I was trying to be nice. Ben never figured out a way to use it in striking, but he was really good with wrestling. But he has like a slow twitch body, you know? I mean, he can go for days with wrestling. He was really creative in his transitions and his takedowns,

the way he would chain takedown attempts. But he just never developed the kind of pop that some wrestlers did. Yeah, he had a different style, for sure. By the way, I don't know if you saw, so Kyle Dake ended up getting bronze. So the guy that beat Burroughs. So he lost the match 11-0.

He dominated everybody else. He lost the match somewhere along the way 11-0 to uh um was somebody from the eastern block and i was too i've been too nervous to watch it because i i can't imagine him losing to anybody so 11-0 is crazy yeah 11-0 or like 13-0 or something like that do they have a tech fall in the olympics yeah they do yeah Yeah. And so, yeah, so he came back to win bronze. David Taylor, who- Imagine how good the guy is who beat him 11 to nothing. A lot of his style matchups.

Yeah, or maybe. This is a name for you to read. Oh, here we go. Oh, my God. Good luck with that. Oh my God. Good luck with that. Magomed Khabib Kadimagomedov.

Magomed Khabib Kadimagomedov. That's like every great Dagestan fighter rolled into two names. Put that name up there again. I want to one day get that in my vocabulary. Magomed Khabib Kadimagomedov. Whoa, what a fucking name. That's a long-ass name. I feel like you just repeat that over and over and just meditate.

Yeah, you'd have to. Yeah, like, oh. Who that? 11-0. The really good one is Kyle Snyder versus Sato Laya of the Russian tank. So they were one and one. They're basically probably two of the greatest wrestlers ever out of the heavies. And they just went to war, and this time the Russian won.

So I think it's two and one. And that's an interesting choice there. They just won all of the world championships between the two of them and uh olympics kyle was in a different weight class a highway class in the previous olympics so they both won gold in the previous one it's so interesting but they're both choosing to stay in wrestling and it's like you could tell both of them that they went to mma that would just destroy. Well, Jordan Burrows is another example, right? He chose to stay in wrestling, and he's actually made a very good living in wrestling. One of the things is through Flow Grappling and through a lot of these other kind of streaming organizations, guys can make money competing in wrestling, which is very nice.

Because of Donahue, because of Flo Grappling coming here, Austin might become the capital of martial arts in the United States. That's what I'm excited. That's what I'm rooting for. So many things happening here. I know. It's crazy. Duncan's moving here.

Duncan's moving here. That's when it's going to be the fun. Well, I told you offline, Duncan and Joey Diaz. Joey Diaz is the ultimate. That's the ultimate. That's the ultimate. That's the final jewel in Thanos' golden globe. From Jersey to Austin.

And then tech, too. Like, I mean, that's the reason I really came here. I mean, you're part of people that are creating an incredible place in Austin, but also the fact that Elon really believes that this will be the Silicon Valley. All the sort of pursuit of excellence without the, what should I say, the woke and all of that kind of nonsense. For now. The problem with that stuff is it's like COVID. It fucking spreads. It's dangerous.

And it's a way for people that don't really have good positions to establish some control, and they can establish influence, and they can use it to force their will on folks. There's too many guns here. I think it's going to scare people away. I hope so. It's too hot. That's the point.

I know a lot of the cool people I know in tech are moving here, and a lot of the not-so-cool people I know are staying in Silicon Valley. Good. Stay there. Stay there and hang on as it sinks into the ocean. And part of it is also, like we said, the weirdos. Nobody wants to follow. Like the not-cool people don't want to follow Elon Musk. So they don't get it.

I mean, the wild people, people the crazies the dreamers the people that really want to pursue excellence and in the full diversity of what that means real diversity the full spectrum of diversity and chase big ideas big dreams change the world that's those are the people that are moving here so it's super exciting well the thing about austin as opposed to new york city or los angeles is that an individual like elon musk can move there and then moving there after he does will be considered like following him because it's not a big place it'll be considered like copying or like it's a beta move yeah whereas like if someone moves to new york city you move to New York City, it's like, God, there's billions of fucking people there. It's like millions of people there, rather. Like, who cares?

Or in Los Angeles, same thing. Not one person defines a city. But if you're in tech and when Elon decides to make a move from California to Austin, it's a big deal. And that big deal sort of defines the area. And if you move afterwards, it's kind of like you're copying. And people that have, maybe they have a little bit of jealousy towards a guy like Elon, or maybe they have some weird animosity towards him, or they don't like... I mean, he's an easy guy. If you were in tech, he's an easy guy to be jealous of. He's running four different businesses simultaneously.

He has radical influence on innovation, radical, in terms of electric cars, in terms of the Boring Company, in terms of SpaceX, the solar division. He's got a lot, and that's not even count Neuralink. He's got a lot of wild shit that he's doing simultaneously so if you're a person who has a big ego and your fancies yourself you fancy yourself as like a tech innovator of the highest order and a real wunderkind and then you see Elon and he moved to Austin you're like well fuck that I'm staying here yeah stay there with the needles and the human shit those people are there it's kind of i try to resist it i always will like um i'm a huge fan of yours i'm a huge fan of elon i'm a

huge fan of a lot of people and actually you're one of the people that taught me that is it's good to be a fan of people yeah i love people and i'm not gonna just because the internet uh like it's the jealousy thing people criticize you for a fan, and there's a pressure to sort of be, like, not celebrate others because that seems like a beta thing or something. Right, exactly. But to me, celebrating others is awesome. Yeah. If I was a tech person, I swear to God, I'd be on Elon's nuts.

I'd be like, he's a shit. Look at him. Look at him go. It's awesome because not many other people are doing what he's doing. I celebrate everyone that's doing wild stuff that are dreamers. Actually, I mean, he's doing his best. Sander Pachai, I'm a big fan of, who's leading Google. But Google is now a giant monster that's moving slowly.

It's very difficult to do, to innovate. Microsoft is actually surprisingly doing a lot of incredible innovative stuff. They've partnered with OpenAI. Dude, I got to pee so bad. Yeah. I drank way too much water. Let's pause this for a moment. Sure.

You got a list there of a bunch of shit. Sure. I'm sure you need things to bring up with. How long do we go? It's like 3.40. So we're going to pause for a moment and we'll be right back. Cool. We're back.

We're back? Yes. Just for the record, the great Joe Rogan had to go take a piss. Is that amazing? Yeah. I mean, this is what I enjoy about wrestling. What? Is breaking your opponent. Speaking of breaking your opponent, have a glass of those.

Is that tequila? No, it's whiskey. Whiskey. What is this called? How do you say this again? Lafrock? How do you say this? It's the real shit.

It's still my... Salute, my friend. Salute. Mmm. I love this stuff. That's good. How's that? Petey? Irish?

Or scotch? Whiskey? Laphroaig. Yeah, dude. Laphroaig. Tequila. I've got to get into that, actually. I have a gluttonous personality, and whenever I get out of the sauna,

if I do sauna before I come here, I always drink way too much fucking water. I just... I overhydrate. And then I cannot control my piss. I do my best to get it out before the podcast, but oftentimes I'm straining. It sounds... This is what they usually do after they're broke

and they come up with excuses. I broke. Yeah. Listen, I'll tell you openly. I could have held it if I knew we were in competition. Yeah. But I knew my conversation would be better if I didn't have to pee so bad. Oh, I see.

I see. You know, one of the things I did realize recently, I got a barrel sauna for outside. It's a small sauna. Those are better. They're better. Is there windows to the outside? Yeah. It's a window to the outside which is nice but them little barrel saunas there's a reason why they make it that like that fucking contains the heat that's nice and when you throw the water on the rocks the fucking steam and the heat in there it's much more uncomfortable it's like

physically like tangibly hotter in this little barrel sauna which makes sense because my other sauna is big and like takes a long time to heat up this motherfucker heats up like full blast gets to 185 degrees in 20 minutes so that's you did that before the podcast yeah i did it after workout say like uh i don't know i don't know what's an important conversation for you what's's the perfect thing before a podcast that you go through? Like if you were interviewing, I mean, Kanye was probably the most important interview of all time. Really?

I'm just kidding. I don't know who somebody you'd be really nervous for. I don't know. If I'm going to do like- What's the perfect- Quentin Tarantino was a big one for me. I'm a giant Quentin Tarantino. That was a great conversation, by the way.

Love that guy. He's, in my opinion, he's the best filmmaker of all time. His movies, and this is, again, this is very subjective, but in terms of me, the way I get excited, there's Martin Scorsese movies. I think Martin Scorsese's fucking amazing, but there's Martin Scorsese movies I haven't seen I've never missed a Quentin Tarantino movie when his movies come out it's like there's a feeling that you get when you're about to watch a Tarantino movie you know some fucked up shit is gonna happen that's my kind of movie that's what I like yeah I know actually

somebody who were talking about wrestling somebody texted me because I mentioned I'm going on the show. And they said, make sure you push back and talk shit to Joe. I really enjoy that. And as the example, he mentioned a time when I mentioned that John Wick sucks to you. I still stand by that. I haven't watched the third one yet. How dare you?

And I said, Scent of a Woman is better than John Wick. Well, I haven't seen Scent of a Woman since it came out. Yeah. That's a good question, but there's no way that could be true. I think there was a compromise on the topic of Big Lebowski. That was the one that was a test. It's a great movie. You said you used that as a test.

I used to use that. Of whether you're a good human. What's the new one? What's the new one that I used? Is there a good test? I need a new one, but that was one that I used for use that. Of whether you're a good human. What's the new one? What's the new one that I used? Is there a good test? I need a new one. But that was one that I used for a while. If someone didn't like The Big Lebowski, I'm like, I can't fuck with you.

You and I are not going to vibe. Yeah. But no, I got to put Scorsese up there over Tarantino for me. Well, he's amazing. There's no doubt about it. It's very subjective. But the thing is, like, the kind of movie, like, I love Pulp Fiction. Pulp Fiction has a special place in my mind because when I moved to California was right when Pulp Fiction came out.

And I remember seeing that. I remember I couldn't believe I'm living in Hollywood. I'm like, what the fuck is this? How am I on TV? Like, what am I doing here? I was in my 20s. I was, like, you know, like, doe-eyed. I was in my 20s. I was like, you know, like doe-eyed. I was so confused.

And then I watched that movie and I remember thinking, that is the wildest fucking movie I've ever seen in my life. Because you didn't know what was happening. The timelines were all screwed up. And it was crazy. Crazy movie. And I was, like, my biggest respect went up when I realized he wrote, I hope I don't get this wrong but I think

he wrote true romance yes he did write true true romance and that's probably one of my favorite films and that great fucking movie he's good and he doesn't have any misses which is so interesting and it was also in your conversation so I fast-forwarded the whole Bruce Lee thing of course that's a rough one that's a rough one but the a rough one but the uh the him it was really interesting the exchange between the two of you on the topic of like walking away on like doing one more movie and then walking away yeah it's so i've never heard anyone talk this way and just even to think this way that you would walk away at the peak of your greatness

yeah because you don't i mean you talk about that with fighting but fighting is a very different And just even to think this way, that you would walk away at the peak of your greatness. Yeah. Because you don't, I mean, you talk about that with fighting, but fighting is a very different thing. There's physical consequences to all that kind of stuff. Yeah. How many directors walk away? Like one of the saddest things to me, one of my favorite actors ever is De Niro. And whenever he went those like Meet the Fockers and all those kinds of movies,

that was a little bit sad to me. I know people enjoy them. That's sad, kind of, maybe, but maybe okay because a lot of people enjoyed those movies. They're funny. Ben Stiller's very funny. Yeah. The sad one is the – what was the wizard movie that he was in? He was in like this terrible fucking movie where he was like a king or a wizard or something like that.

It was so clear that he was, it was like a fantasy movie, but it was so obvious that he was doing it for money. He's like, Jesus. Is it money? Is it money or is it just kind of- The rumor has always been that his wife, who is now divorced or is in the process of divorcing, spends too much money. Well- That sometimes can happen, bro. Be careful. He's now divorced or is in the process of divorcing. Spends too much money. Well. That sometimes can happen, bro.

Be careful. There he is. What is this movie? The most bizarre Robert De Niro movie you can watch on Netflix. What is it called? Stardust. Stardust? Look at it down there.

Who is that? Is that Michelle Pfeiffer? Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert De Niro in a nonsensical movie. Look at that guy with the pipe. He's a leprechaun. Look at me pipe.

I always wonder about that. I almost don't, like from a podcasting perspective, I don't think you've interviewed a lot of actors here. I have a few. Scott Eastwood was on recently. I love that guy. But like high, high, like big. I have a few. Scott Eastwood was on recently. I love that guy. But like high, high, like big.

Like you haven't interviewed Clint Eastwood. No. No. I certainly would. But yeah, he's actually interesting outside of that. But I don't pursue anybody. Right. They come.

Except I've been pursuing Lil Nas X. I try to get him on. I love that guy. I fucking love that dude. Yeah. He's got a good sense of humor. I love what he did. I love that he had I fucking love that dude. Yeah, he's got a good sense of humor. I love what he did. I love that he had this big pop song that was a huge hit,

and then he went full gay, like giving Satan a lap dance and people freaking out. And then his new one where he's in the shower and everyone's naked and they're all dancing naked in the shower. I'm a little out of touch on this. So he came out as gay a while back, right? He came out like a fucking cannon. With the devil?

But the music is great, too. The thing is it's not just that he's coming out of the closet. I celebrate the fact that he's able to be his authentic self. But it's also the music is fun. It's good music, man. Did he make out with somebody in that video? Hopefully. He made out with the devil, I think.

Well, he licked a demon's nipples, right? That was the one that freaked everybody out. And then the new one. The new one, he's walking out of prison. He's got these dudes holding his pocket. Yeah. That's a demon. Is that a demon or the devil?

I don't know. I forget. I forget. I need to watch it again. But it's a demon. Is that a demon or the devil? I don't know. I forget. I forget. I need to watch it again. But it's a great video. But boy, did it freak people out, man. That's what I liked about it. He probably gets a lot of hate and a lot of support.

Yeah, both. I love it when artists do that. Just stick to it. He is himself now. He gets a lot of hate from some folks in the gay community that don't like this over-sexualized caricature of gay men. But this is like, it comes with success. You're going to get people in all sorts of weird groups that are upset at you for all sorts of weird things. He's a superstar.

I don't want to speak out of turn too much, but I think, isn't there a bit of a problem with homophobia in the rap slash African American community that he's also fighting against? A little bit, but he does duets with guys like Nas, OGs. Nas and Lil Nas X

did a duet. Do you say duet in rap? What do you say? They call it a feature. I wouldn't call it a duet so do you say duet and rap what do you say it says they call like a feature interesting new terms yeah yeah I remember that somebody I like quite a bit DMX passed away yeah he's got a he's got a little homophobia and other kinds of problems in his lyrics some of of the older lyrics? Yeah. Well, it was always a big part of rap. Yeah.

Or a normalized part of rap. But, you know, as times change, people look at things differently. People change. And care less about certain things. You've got to allow that, embrace that. Yeah, you've got to allow that. But to answer your question, as far as actors, there's a lot of actors I'd be interested in talking to.

One of the greatest, Brian Callen. Ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga. Wasn't he in The Joker? Joey Diaz is in the new Sopranos movie. That's right, yeah. That's awesome. But I always wonder whether you'd be disappointed if you actually sit down with some of the great actors

and talk to them for two hours, three hours, like if they were on the Joe Rogan Experience. Depends on who they are. Like Daniel Day-Lewis. Daniel Day-Lewis, yeah. I wonder. I don't think I'd be disappointed with him at all. So I actually don't think you will either,

but there's not many interviews of him. I listened to, like, you can see there's a thinking person there. But he might be very different than all the roles he played. I think with a guy like him, you would probably just want to have a conversation. I probably wouldn't even want to talk too much about his acting. Like the process that you go through? Yeah, I'd like to talk to him about shoemaking because he's a cobbler. He decided to take time to be a cobbler. He decided to take time to be a cobbler. I don't need to talk to him about there will be blood or whatever fucking movie,

The Boxer or whatever movie he's done. I just like to talk to him as a person. The first time I had Sturgill Simpson on, he didn't play any music. We just talked. We talked about stuff. I think I'm interested in people. I'm interested in the way people think about things and people who are great at whatever, whatever they're great at, whether it's great athletes or great martial artists or great tech innovators. I'm just interested

in the way exceptional people think. I don't need to talk to them about their specific discipline. I can just talk to them about anything. In fact, I'm more than happy. If someone like you is into AI but is like an amateur chess player, I'd like to talk to you about chess. I want to know what – I like to talk about what you want to talk about, really. Yeah, I've been actually – this is so interesting. I've been studying chess more and more recently, by the way. Partially – I've been actually, this is so interesting. I've been studying chess more and more recently, by the way.

Partially, I've been thinking about this because I have to interview probably. Kasparov? Well, Kasparov I interview, yeah, again as well. Did you do that? Yeah, I've talked to him before. But he has so many other interesting aspects to him that you can just talk to forever, like have a more casual conversation. But Magnus Carlsen was the world champ.

You're going to interview him? Yeah. When is that? I don't know. It's a COVID situation. It's a negotiation of like how he's in London or in that area. Are you going to have to fly there? It's either that or he flies here.

And either way, it's COVID. Some sort of quarantine? So it's very difficult for them to fly. It's easier for us to fly, us meaning U.S. citizens, to fly to the U.K. Is he going to require some sort of a test? Is it him or is it the state? Yeah, I don't know. So there's some of that.

Canada has the same problem. I think August 9th they've opened up. Yeah. Because Jordan Peterson went to have a conversation, but he's still too, well, whatever. There's more private stuff, but he wants to stay private for now. Recovering from his health and all those kinds of things. Isn't that crazy, still recovering from that benzodiazepine thing? That's wild.

And it can go back to square one any day really terrifying thing of it it's like it's terrifying that's the one one along with alcohol the two things that if you quit cold turkey it'll fucking kill you how many people are on those? Yeah. Let's Google that because we freaked out over the opioids. Let's Google how many people. Let's take a guess. The prescriptions don't necessarily reflect the number of humans, right? Because there's 365 days a year. How many?

What do you get? 30 days in a prescription. You know what I'm saying? There's 12. So for one person on, it's like a factor of 12. I'm guessing. I don't know what they prescribe you. It could be longer prescriptions.

I don't know. So let's take a guess. How many prescriptions? If we saw how many prescriptions there were for opioids. Any number would be very painful to me. But, yeah, it's, I would say, in the hundreds of thousands. I would say it's in the hundreds of millions. I bet it's I would say in the hundreds of thousands I would say it's in the hundreds of millions I bet it's a hundred million I bet I bet if there's a hundred and fifty million opioid prescriptions be it's mmm there's

a lot of people on Xanax bro I know a lot of people on that shit I know a lot of people on that shit I know i knew a lady on that who would uh she would frown upon people smoking pot and she had to take xanax every day and she was not not into drugs it was really funny yeah yeah i take it back i mean i'm almost don't want to allow myself to think that's in the millions i think it's in the millions because like that you know that's that's in the like everybody you're talking to would then be on and you know on xanax yeah well i think a lot of people are on it i know i have friends that are on it and they need it they need it to control anxiety and i have friends and show business that are on it that needed to control anxiety well it helps have friends in show business that are on it that needed to control anxiety.

Well, it helps then. Yeah. That's the question is like what. But what? What's anxiety, right? What does that mean? Yeah. And what else are you doing to mitigate it?

I love it. I mean, I love anxiety, right? It brings out the best in me. You clearly have like paranoia and anxiety. Like you're using that for your advantage. I enhance it. Enhance it. That's why I why i like pot yeah people get freaked out when i say that like i like the paranoia i don't like it when it's happening but just like i don't like the sauna when i'm at 25 minutes at 195 degrees i don't like it yeah i like what it does for my body but i like the paranoia of pot because it makes me reflect in a genuine way by

the way i got uh thank you to to the to the great jamie for um sending me into outer space with the gravity with i think a single inhalation of the gravity bomb with weed yeah i got a gravity bong and uh i didn't force him to take it. I might have challenged him. It's crazy, right? Yeah, it's crazy. Bongs are ridiculous. You know what's ridiculous? Those dabbers.

Those fucking crazy assholes. What's that? Oh, exactly. What is that? It's like a wax. Like this THC wax. They go too far. They go too far.

Are you smoking it? Yeah, you smoke it, and you smoke it in these weird contraptions. These fucking freaks, they go too far. They go too far. Are you smoking it? Yeah, you smoke it and you smoke it and it's weird contraptions. These fucking freaks, they go too far. They won't stop. Oh, well, let's get to the Xanax. That's what I made him smoke, just so you know. From an engineering perspective. That was beautiful.

That's how I sold him on it. So flips upside down? Yeah. 600 bucks. Whoa, that's heavy. How many, let's get a number. That's heavy. How many? Let's get a number. Xanax. How many Xanax prescriptions? Let's have benzodiazepines or Xanax.

I guess there's different benzos. There's a couple it's given me when I look up benzodiazepines. That's why I was trying to figure out what the main thing is. This thing said it was listed as number 37 in 2018 as the most common so like there's a list which is around 20 million prescriptions this is on the wikipedia though so i was looking through the list to see if i could find something else that was uh but if there's like a bigger category or something like that yeah well did you say 20 million is that what you said yeah yeah but i found that I found something else competing with that number. When it pops up here on top of Google, how many are prescribed,

you add these together and you're going to get close to like 100 million, but that's 2017. Oh, so there's a bunch of different kinds. Yeah. And I don't know the difference between them. And still, at least from the Jordan Peterson experience, it seems like there's not good, well-understood science of how to get off them properly. What about Ibogaine?

Is there any data on using Ibogaine to get off of benzodiazepine? Because it's phenomenal, apparently. I haven't experienced Ibogaine, because it's phenomenal, apparently. I haven't experienced Ibogaine, but the people that I know that have used it said it's phenomenal for getting off of opioids. Is that legal to do research on? I don't know.

Not in America. I think that's when you have the Rick Doblin folk and Matthew Johnson. They probably know this stuff. Yeah, Ibogaine is legal in Mexico, and I know people go to Mexico to treat opioid addiction with ibogaine is legal in mexico and i know um people go to mexico to to uh treat opioid addiction with ibogaine i don't know about ibogaine and benzodiazepine yeah i wonder if if like jordan tried that that'd be interesting it would be interesting i i think he's talked about

psychedelics but never in the context of um trying them to uh them to cure his current situation. Right. And I know he's talked about psilocybin. It's not a lot of scientific thing, but just there's someone offering this and even says here that you have to keep taking the benzo through your ibogaine treatment. Whoa. So, I mean, that sounds dangerous. What?

What? dangerous. What? People who are on benzo, people who are benzo dependent must continue their baseline injection, ingestion through the Ibogaine treatment. Benzo withdrawal increases the risk of seizure. So we must keep it in your system at sufficient levels. Tapering away from benzodiazepine may begin within 72 hours after flood dose. I like how they call it flood dose. Benzos during flood dose is said to hamper the visionary aspects of Ibogaine and to soften the trip. Huh. Well, I don't think I'm saying anything private.

So Jim Keller is, I think, the brother of Jordan's wife. He's a legendary engineer. People should check him out. But he said from all of us looking into it, let's put Jordan aside, that the most effective way to get off of benzos is, unfortunately, not going cold turkey. It's like decreasing the dose gradually over a long period of time. What's a long period of time?

I think it's like months or years. Years? Yeah. I mean, this is the only thing that... So the temptation, most drugs, I think, what people say is to go cold turkey, right? And then you just go through the whole process of withdrawal. Jordan had no idea of this when he got on it, right?

No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think anybody had any idea. When I heard about people taking Xanax, I thought it was just like taking anything else you take it and you stop taking it I didn't think it was something that like literally becomes impossible to get rid of yeah well he's an interesting person to have gone through that because he'll be probably if I hope he gets out of it and then he'd be able to introspect and he's not totally out of it yet huh no no no i don't want to say anything but you know

it's a struggle wow i he's an important human being so i hope he's with us he's the one of the most misrepresented people i've ever seen when i see people represent him in a way that is completely inaccurate and caricature of who he really is i was like i've i've been stunned at people's representations of who he is stunned like how willfully dishonest it is yeah that plus the kind of not acknowledging that he's helped probably like millions of people. For sure. And he's an interesting guy. He's a really interesting person. He's a very nice person too.

Very nice person. But, you know, he got caught up in that whole woke thing and the kickback against if you push back against the woke orthodoxy, the kickback is tremendous. But not many people are willing to stand, like walk through the fire of that. It's the same thing with vaccines, the same with all these kind of things where there's the mainline story. And to be a legitimate sort of, so he's a well-published psychologist like with a with a career to be able to to be willing to stand in that fire uh especially when he was less known that takes a lot like most people are not willing to uh not brave enough to do that yeah major props to him no i i'm a big fan of him as a human being you know not just as a public um person a public intellectual a public person

espousing ideas that are controversial but just him as a person like my my time spent with him with no cameras on i like him a lot he's a really nice guy. Yeah. Extremely well-read. Looks good in a suit. Carnivore diet. He's way too strict on the carnivore thing. That's another thing that got weird with people. They got upset that he was doing well eating meat, just meat. People got really mad at that. It was just one more layer of oppression that they bestowed upon him yeah people want to

say is that you know they'll they'll see me and see like i talk kind of slow and and uh look like i may be at least slightly mentally challenged who says that i mean whatever it's obvious when you watch which watch me talk but the point is they'll be like it's the carnivore diet or something no it's not it's this is the way i am the the carnivore diet has nothing to do with it i feel good on carnivore i still one of the questions i have because i'm uh scaling up train like i want to in september scale up the training like hard with craig jones with donna hard gordon um like five six times a week and if you're doing a little experiment and then compete a lot in, like, October, just compete, not stop.

You should compete for who's number one. Find someone who's, like, an appropriate challenge. Can you do me, like, a favor? Just, like, one match I have in my life, can you commentate it? Sure. I would love to do that. Yeah. That'd be amazing.

I would love to do that. But my be amazing. I would love to do that. But my question is, will carnivore hold up to that? So will I have to, like, because I feel so good on carnivore, so focused, so clarity of mind. I have not, it does not, my cardio is not great because the cardio hasn't quite been there. But it's not, when my cardio has been amazing i've always been carnival or keto yeah i think um when i do uh only carnivore uh my

intense workouts struggle a little bit i've noticed that but you're talking let's that's uh treadmill or kettlebell kettlebells rounds in the bag. Rounds in the bag. I feel like that's different than jiu-jitsu. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. It's a little different. It's a little different. That pop, maybe.

The way I want to do jiu-jitsu is not like the skinny friend, I keep forgetting his name, the one with the pizza. Mikey Musumechi? Yeah, Mikey Musumechi. So he is an artist of a different kind. More skinny friend with a pizza. Yeah. People should check out.

He makes his own pizzas. Not only does he do that, but he fasts for 24 hours, and then he eats two pizzas every night. Like some, what is it, like 3,000, 4,000 calories, something like that? 7,000, he says. 7,000 calories. He makes his own pizza, and it's really interesting. night like some what is it like three four thousand calories seven he says seven thousand calories he makes his own pizza and it was like it's really interesting yeah he's a fascinating character because that guy he's another seven day a week guy another seven day a week there's like

maybe something to be said for that but there's also something to be said for pure pure obsession like pure focus where your your whole life is about this one thing that you're doing you know although it's there's a balance i mean i don't want to psychoanalyze no i don't have any insider information about donahar. But they were in New York and then Puerto Rico. When you have that singular obsession when you're in New York, there's still a release valve in the city. Right. When you're all just alone together. I mean, there's a few camps in jiu-jitsu and martial arts that have been like that where you're just in the middle of nowhere. You're together.

That can be too much. that have been like that where you're just in the middle of nowhere you're together that can be too much so maybe there has to be a difference between stepping on the mat and stepping in the time off the mat like when you're on the mat there's that grind there's that ritual of every single day or twice a day whatever it is but when you step off it's a little bit of an escape to an outside world there's something to that yeah i'm a huge believer of training I'm with Donna on this like training every day if not twice a day like any if you if you you have to listen to your body and you still step on the mat but then maybe you're doing drilling as opposed to hard training yeah hard drilling versus hard

training yeah if you're listening to your body if you're doing it correctly if you don't the thing about you just is your body will let you know if you're listening to your body, if you're doing it correctly. If you don't, the thing about jiu-jitsu is your body will let you know if you don't, and you'll fall apart. One of the things that's heartbreaking about communicating with Hickson, because, of course, Hickson, if you don't know, Hickson was on my podcast a week ago, and Hickson Gracie is widely considered the greatest Gracie of all time, one of the greatest jiu-jitsu practitioners who has ever lived,

if not the greatest, and most certainly the champion of the most important family in the history of martial arts. That's Hickson. And such a fascinating person, but his body's fucked. His back is fucked. He's suffering from disc degeneration, the spaces in between his back. All the gelatinous discs are deteriorated to almost nothing. So he's basically bone on bone for all of his back.

So he's in real pain. I have some disc degeneration. I have quite a bit of it actually, but I have it to a point where I'm still functional and I work very hard to maintain it. I've had a lot of treatments, Regenikine and stem cells. And I, I have a lot of mitigation techniques I use for spinal decompression and back strengthening, but it's made me a little bit shorter. Like my body's shrinking because the discs are smaller and smaller. And I know that if I train hard with jujitsu too much, it'll eventually get to where it's bone on bone. And then I'm fucked. I'm not fucked right now. Like right now I got good motion. I can do most of

the things I want to do. I can train pretty hard. But I'm also 54. And there's a reality of the body. It's like there's only so much you can do. When I see Hickson, I see the future of most jiu-jitsu practitioners. What do you psychologically, how do you deal with that 54? Like thinking about your future in jiu-jitsu, given how much you love jiu-jitsu given how much you love jiu-jitsu how much you love getting on the mat and training do you see yourself like when you're 70 when you're

80 do you see yourself still getting on the mat maybe playing around with some stuff maybe just for fun you know elio gracie trained into like into his 90s he was training but very light and you know just fun playing not like the hard sparring you do when you're in your 20s and 30s where you just fucking you know it's all like but that's how you get hurt Jean-Jacques Machado is one of the things that I brought up in my conversation with Hickson it's really amazing that John Jock, who is, you know, one of the greatest jiu-jitsu practitioners of all time, still rolls to this day because he does so smart. And, you know, John Jock is like probably close to 50, if not 50. But he's like very fit, very healthy, very flexible and loose. But he doesn't explode everything's

controlled and perfect technique and you know it's his precision and his technique are so excellent that there's no there's no need to ever like rush something or muscle something and i think that you know when you're in competition a lot and you're in competition to you know to tap younger guys and to dominate you know like real explosive individuals you run the risk of these injuries and the big injuries are the spinal injuries because all the other injuries you can fix you know if you get a joint injury, those can be fixed. Meniscus is bad, but the real bad shit is discs.

You know, that's the real bad one. And everybody that I know that develops like real spinal problems, tingling of the nerves, you know, that's the shit that really doesn't go away. that really doesn't go away. But then you as a scholar and a commentator of mixed martial arts, it's like, I was talking to Craig about this, because when I was super active and competing, it was like seven years ago, I would say, six years ago, and he's like, the game has changed. He was explaining ways it has changed.

So one of them is the foot locks. The other one is the body lock. The Marcelo game of butterfly, it's much harder to play butterfly guard now because of the body lock. So he was explaining all these ways, and it's good. I think it would be amazing for you to sort of get on the mat with Donahar

and start learning these ways. Yeah, I can't wait until he moves here. I'm really excited about that, just learning from him. The evolution of the game. I mean, he's obviously part of the people that are doing that evolution. Have you ever seen their jiu-jitsu instructional series? Yeah.

Phenomenal. The best out there. Amazing stuff. Gordon has a really good one on guard passing. Craig has a few really good ones. John is not for everyone, I would say, but I love it because they're so long. They're like, it's like if Miyamoto Musashi was doing instructional. Like half the time it's philosophy.

Right. I love that shit, but sometimes they just want to know not the big principles of the system but more like specific techniques. But I think having principles is – like that's essential to understand. And Gordon is really good at explaining. I watched one with guard passing, his explanation of like just the – what is guard passing, just the entirety of the system. Craig is the first one that,

you know, like Dean Lister, why would you ignore half the body? Craig actually said something to me. I know others have said this a million times, but we're doing some guard passing stuff. And he's like, why would you want to, we're trying to talk through

how to pass the guard. And he said like, why do you want to step into their guard? Why not just go around it? Why do you want to pass the guard? Just like go around it. So he's talking about like these Toriant, like these, which seems to be really effective in no-gi grappling. You're going around the guard.

So you're not entering into the guard and then from there passing. You're going around it. And that's a way to break them also mentally and exhaust them until they just let go. So never giving the guard player an opportunity to connect with you in a real, like, in any way that makes them comfortable to attack. So it's always Torriando passing, like moving their knees, throwing the knees to the side. That's ideal for sure, but some guys you can't do that too.

His idea is like, why not? Well, you know, he's elite and he can get away with it because he has a level of proficiency that's above most of the people. You see when he tapped Ronaldo? Yeah. That just shows you. Like, Ronaldo's, like, elite of the elite, right?

And when Craig got a hold of him, you could see he was lost. Yeah. You know, and Craig locks up his leg and he's forced to tap. There's a lot of guys Craig could do that to. A lot of guys. What John has done and what Gordon and Nicky and Gary Tonin and Nicky Rod have done,

they've created an amazing level where they're all feeding off each other, which is really weird that they're separating right now. It's like the Beatles. I don't even want to ask questions, man. You know what Craig Joe said? He's like,

in case anyone's wondering, I'm not Yoko Ono. I want to know who's the Yoko in this story. I mean, there's something to be said to greatness always kind of, like it can't last. Yeah. Well, that's what we were talking about with fighters, like MMA fighters that they can only maintain those RPMs

for a certain number of years. The thing about what Gordon is doing right now is that Gordon is only 26. 25, 26? Yeah. He's 26? Yeah, something like that. I mean, he's not even in his athletic prime. He's got like four or five more years before he really hits peak.

And then he's probably got another four or five more years after that where he can maintain that peak, which is really incredible. When he's 34, he'll still be at the top. I mean, Wagner Rocha is number one in his weight class he's 40 right yeah imagine gordon ryan at 40 well that said gordon did kind of retire right because of the stomach thing he has a doing much better he's doing much better much better yeah ways to well um they've been treating him. Those are the guys that actually gave me the sign back here. Nice. Yeah. It's a shout out to my man Brigham. But they have put him on a protocol and there's some ways to deal with his particular stomach ailment, to deal with biologics, BPC-157 and

stem cells. There's some treatments that are effective. And he has had a big reaction to it. He's not 100%, but he's quite a bit better. He can keep more food down. That was the thing. It was like Gordon was the best grappler in the world, the best grappler of all time, and he was dealing with a stomach issue that kept him from eating food,

which is just fucking crazy. Like imagine that guy at 100%. Yeah. issue that kept him from eating food, which is just fucking crazy. Like, imagine that guy at 100%. Yeah. You know, it's also possible that those, like Nietzsche, Friedrich Nietzsche, I think famously suffers from migraines. It's like, maybe it's good to suffer from something. I think it's good to suffer from something. I mean, self-imposed at the very least.

Yeah. I am at my best when I am self-imposed suffering. You know, I like working out with a trainer, but there's something about me that likes working out by myself. I like suffering when I don't have to. There's no reason to. There's no reason to put when I write some shit down, I know I have to do it.

There's no reason for me when i write some shit down i know i have to do it there's no reason for me to do it but there's there's a massive satisfaction in doing it and running in the austin heat is suffering i don't know if you run outside but that is a motherfucker i've been like not answering goggins's emails just slowly trying to train because there's levels. There's levels. There's levels to crazy. Goggins, he's on a completely different level. Not doing anything with him in the summer. He's nuts. He's nuts.

But like I was telling you offline, I'm enjoying the go-to is run and then body weight, push-ups and pull-ups. You can go so far with that. Yeah, for sure. Especially for jiu-jitsu. You can go so far with that. Yeah, for sure. Especially for jiu-jitsu. No, it's phenomenal for jiu-jitsu because bodyweight exercises in high repetition really mimic the kind of conditioning that you need for jiu-jitsu. It really does.

And there's a mental aspect to it, just putting your body in strain. So bodyweight squats too. It sounds easy, but it's not after a while i do them every day i do 100 every day just bodyweight i do 100 hindu squats every day in a row i don't do shit until i do 100 hindu squats every day my respect for you just went up that's good shit i mean it's way harder than it sounds well you know what it does too it builds this muscle the top of the quadriceps, like where the knee hits. And I talked to a bunch of people about that,

and they think that it's like one of the best exercises for stabilizing the knee. It's very similar to that knee over toes guy's idea. Like the knee does go over the toes when you do Hindu squats. And I think this kind of movement feels like it makes you more functional for everyday life like for going up the stairs for doing stupid shit like i remember getting injured when i was like lifting real heavy in my like early 20s like power like real heavy weight i remember getting really hurt just opening the window like i would i i got like seriously injured like uh

because everything's already broken down everything's already broken down and then i just remember like i don't want to be that guy it doesn't matter how much you squat or deadlift or whatever you want to be functional in everyday life right well that's hickson you know like hickson's uh training even when he was doing weightlifting, like he was doing light weights. It was very functional training stuff, got cleans and presses. And it was just about movement and keeping the body fluid and healthy and range of motion and flexibility. Can I read you a poem?

Yeah. Okay, I learned my lesson. If we were anywhere else else imagine if you and I were eating dinner I'm like what what the fuck no this is only because there's a microphone

okay alright wrap up with this did you write this poem no I didn't write see I learned my lesson I'm not doing stupid shit easy

okay just for the record last time I played music on here I forget when that was it was great you read comments too much. It's not the comments.

What is it? It was scary. It took guts for me to do it, and that's why I did it. It's not necessarily the quality. It's not about the quality. But what's the negative of it? There's no negative. But why do you say it as if there's some sort of repercussions?

So right now, I kind of decided like this, like I'm not a professional musician, obviously, but so like I have in my repertoire, I'm able to play a lot of Hendrix. So I've always wanted

to play Hendrix here, but it always felt difficult. Right. Like this doesn't feel right. Even like Gary Clark Jr. like playing, it's better if he is like like fucking around more.

But if you're performing a serious thing, it doesn't feel right here. That's not what this is, right? Well, it's interesting. Sometimes it's okay. Like some people do, like Suzanne from Honey Honey. She's had some of the best performances I've ever seen right here. Some people could, Everlast, like, it inspired him to do a whole acoustic thing. My Life Acoustic, that was, like, inspired from him doing sets here.

Yeah, he played What It's Like, yeah. Yeah. I love Everlast. Yeah. I get it. I mean, maybe that's long-term. But I know what you're saying. It's a different thing.

I mean, if I was, because, so here's the, okay. It's difficult to play Voodoo Child, for example, in the full. There's a technical way to play it, which is like precise. That's not as fun. You want to play it precise plus improvise. Shoot the shit, have fun with it. Probably, I don't usually get high, but like get into the spirit, right probably I don't usually get high but like get into the spirit right that's right usually get high yeah when you're over at Jamie's house you

know yeah exactly but to perform it like loose and fully in it that requires like you have to first go actually play it live in front of people like relax I mean it's it's like performing jokes or something and it's it's not you have to you have to get really good at that and i haven't i haven't um just like the cute people most of my music playing has been uh by myself what does that mean but like the cute people no i'm saying like uh most of my art is created behind the computer by myself okay that's what i mean by the cute people but i love do you think you've ever do like a show? Like maybe you do like a set at Antone's? Like music?

Do like a live performance? Yeah. So I used to play live. It's terrifying. So some people stand up to the pressure well. For music, it's terrifying. Like I think, I wonder how many repetitions it takes to fully lose that, to lose that pressure.

Because we're talking, okay, there's several things. What I'm referring to with Hendrix is just technically difficult too. So it's not only that you have to lose yourself, you also have to be on point finger-wise. It's like if you're a physical act or something like that you really just have to also perform really well right um i don't i don't know for me when i get on stage especially when there's a larger number of people i feel it and um i wonder if reps can get over that i definitely i think you have to do reps in front of people yeah in front of people i mean i think it's like if you do you ever read Outliers? When they talked about the Beatles, you know, and the Beatles performing in, I think it was Munich.

Is that what they did? They were doing just constant shows all the time. So when the people, when the general public first saw the Beatles when they went mainstream, went mainstream. They had been working together for so many hours and hours and hours of live performances in front of passionate audiences that they were a finely tuned machine. And that, you know, when you think about Hendrix, Hendrix was not just technically proficient. He was also free in this way that, I mean, I don't want to advocate drug use. It's like, was that Hunter S. Thompson quote? I don't want to advocate drug use. It's worked for me.

Yeah. Drug use and violence, but it's always worked for me. There's something to Hendrix's looseness and the freedom of his expression. That's just, I don't know if you get there any other way. I don't know. I don't mean, there's certain liberties that he would take with notes. To me, Voodoo Child, to me, if I'm tired and I play that song, if I'm on a stair mill or something like that and I play that song, it's like fuel for the body.

It's like a drug. All of a sudden I'm like, whoa, let's go. And your body just fucking feeds off of it. There's something about his interpretation of those notes yeah especially when it's like live because he loses himself much more in the wop out of like just just loses himself um i actually like stevie ray uh yeah stevie ray vaughn's version's amazing as well but it's different it's not it's more technical it's less loosey well it's also a bit of an homage. It's an homage, yeah.

Yeah. Which you don't want to outperform the master sometimes. It's, you know, can you even? It's like you're always going to, everyone's going to know that even if you take it further, you took it further because the other guy had the baton first and he handed it to you. Like, you know. Well, then Johnny Cash just owned Hurt from Nine Inch Nails. Yeah, there owned heart from nine snails yeah some people just take the song well so he was dying yeah so the whole the story of the man is important

you know there's like there's a quality to his voice when he was saying that where he was at the end of the road and a road where he was I mean I don't want to speak for him but it seems like a fucking amazing life and he kind of knew it yeah complex

dude too so complex so Voodoo Child is your number one it's one of them for Jimmy yeah so all along the watchtower

to Hay by the way I love playing Hey Joe. Wouldn't play it here because it's ridiculous. Where are you going with that gutter in your hand? I would love to play that song, but it's too ridiculous. All Along the Watchtower is actually. If Six was Nine, it's another one.

Castle's Made of Sand. Yeah, there's so many. I've always been a fan of the candle that burns quickly and is snuffed out before it's primed. What's he, 27? Yeah, same as Morrison, same as Janis Joplin. Two other people that I'm massive fans with. Massive fans of Janis Joplin.

Because Janis Joplin was another one. Her vibe was so weird, right? was another one like her her fucking her vibe was so weird right like she was this like weird hippie it wasn't very attractive physically but her voice had so much fucking soul and agony in it you know like take another little piece of my heart yeah that song is just oh there he is there was just something about that time too where you're talking about the 60s, which came right after the 50s. So imagine a world where in 2011, everybody was a dork. Yeah. And then in 2021, people were doing acid and freaking out.

And one of the things they said about Hendrix's headband, he would put acid. I don't know if this is true. He'd put acid in the headband and then put it on and tie it on his head. And then as he would sweat, the acid would get into his pores and would get into his bloodstream. Maybe we'll have that coming. Maybe we're living through the 50s right now. It sounds like something we would do, but that sounds like it wouldn't work, too. No, I think it would work.

But isn't that how Albert Hoffman eventually, or originally rather, got intoxicated with LSD when he was synthesizing it in a lab? I believe it went through his dermis. Yeah, in the second paragraph of Did Jimi Hendrix Do This? It says it's not completely impossible to dose yourself that way but it would take a lot it would be a lot less effort to just take it yeah but maybe he did it for fun that way like drop put some droplets in his headband and then tie that on then you start sweating and then it gets into your system i mean imagine tripping on acid in front of, like, Woodstock crowds. Yeah.

Playing the Star Spangled Banner with your teeth. Other versions of the story says it was heroin or cocaine under the bandana. But I don't know that it doesn't say if it's true or not. So it's just a rumor. You know what? I was watching these live – Freddie Mercury from Queen. Oh. When he was performing Live Aid or Freddie Mercury from Queen. Oh.

When he was performing Live Aid or something like that. That performance. I watched that. I return to that often because he – just to be able to control the audience. Yeah. He does this thing with the – like he does like a voice thing. He's an incredible singer. He like sings something and he tells the audience to sing it.

Yeah. And then they sing it and then he goes back and forth. Just to have one man to have that control and then to perform the fucking best version of every song. Wow. Look at the size of that crowd! All right. Wow. The balls in that guy. Yeah, well, he was at the peak of his powers.

That's another guy that died too soon. There's so many of them that are so great that died too soon. It's almost like the universe doesn't want you to live long enough. If you're that big, that's special. But I don't know if it's even that you can't handle it. It's just like that's just how it goes, man, whether you're Elvis or whoever the fuck you are, man. That's just how it goes.

Well, everyone's life is too short, right? Well. Relative. By the time you start figuring things out, it's too late. You know, that's the hustle, right? But by the time you figure shit out, you're probably not going to create anything great. I feel like greatness. Because your body's deteriorating.

Yeah. For the most part. I feel like greatness is Because your body's deteriorating for the most part. I feel like greatness is created at that edge when you haven't quite figured it out. You're kind of too stupid to know better. And you just detrive shit, which is why Elon Musk is fascinating. He's getting up there and he's still doing stupid shit.

He's still taking big risks and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, artists, particularly musical artists in in general they get to a certain point in time and they lose whatever it like rock and roll people they lose whatever it means to be this creative force like in general and it's not universal but in general musicians stop really creating great music as they get older. They might be able to recreate the great music of the past. Like if you go see the Beach Boys, they're not busting out new songs. You know what I mean?

Like even the Stones, nobody wants to see. Stones are still playing today. Nobody wants to see the new shit. Shut the fuck up with your new shit. I guess they had a long stretch of like their big hits yeah weren't like over like a couple of decades but yeah they haven't lasted i'm trying to think if there's anybody everlast has done well but like there's like bruce springsteen bruce springsteen yeah he still he still makes a lot of new stuff but there's not a lot of iconic rock stars that people want and get excited

about their new releases in general they're nostalgic for their the stuff that they busted out when they were in their prime that like Bruce Springsteen it would be definitely great for this podcast but he did that thing with Obama it was odd yeah oh shit on a little bit did you publicly yeah i was it was it wasn't great it was whack it wasn't great it was it was like watered down milk it just didn't seem like they were free like they were too conscious that people were listening and there's too much at stake there's too much going on like part of pot i think podcasts have to be born out of nothing and somehow or another maintain that essence they have to maintain the essence that no one gives a shit about what you have to

say and do it when millions of people give a shit about what you have to say it's not easy to do yeah you do that really well like however the hell you do it, probably weed and exercise. Weed and exercise. I mean, I don't know. I think about that too as the platforms grow and stuff like that. I've noticed just my own ego looking in the mirror. It's shrinking more than anything. But you never know.

But you have a good sense of humility and the significance of humility. Humility is very, very important because it's the only thing that will save you when your ego gets overwhelmed. It's the saddest thing in the world when you see someone overwhelmed by their ego to the point where they want and expect a certain type of treatment of other people. And I've tried as I've gotten more and more famous to be more appreciative and more humble. And just I've tried. Like it's something I work at. You know, I'm not perfect at it. Like no human being is perfect at it but the problem with

the world of podcasting in general is that there's no blueprint for it it hasn't been established it's not like you know if you want to be a rock star you can pay attention to Hendrix you can pay attention to Led Zeppelin you can pay you want to be a famous podcaster well who are you looking at

who's fucking done it the hilarious thing is you're looking at rogan so you're telling you rogan's telling you like there's no fucking guidelines and you're not going to do it the way i do it because you're not me anyway like you gotta like it's gonna it's gonna be a while before we figure out how to do this right but i think humility is uh is significant and you do it very very very well you're one of my favorite people to listen to and your podcast is excellent you're one of the very best at removing yourself from a situation and interviewing people and trying to extract the most out of them and um it's not easy well i i think about us and the podcasting aside, I really want to launch a company.

And then when you get, if you're super successful, you're talking about 1,000, 10,000 employees. And I look at people that are CEOs now, and a lot of them seem to have lost touch with the reality a little bit. So I wonder what kind of systems you can create for yourself to keep that ego in check, to keep in touch with the reality a little bit so i wonder what kind of systems you can create for yourself to keep that ego in check to keep in touch with reality you know that that process is really interesting and again there's no good blueprint for that either i think it needs to be done solitary and i think it needs to be about self-imposed suffering yeah i don't think there's any other way around it i I've thought about this, man. I wish there was. I don't want to do it.

But I don't think I can perform at my best unless, and even, here's the problem. Even discussing self-imposed suffering and the fact that I do it is a little bit of an ego boost because I'll let you know that I torture myself in a way, like physically torture myself. You know, like, oh, what are you working out hard? Like there's part of that, but that's the reality of what it is. I just don't think there's any other way. I think you need challenges,

and I think if you live a life without challenges, you're going to become a tyrant. Yeah, that's one of the reasons i really admire david goggins is there's uh there's an element to his suffering that the camp the fact that the camera is sometimes turned on is an accident right like he's suffering like the tree that falls in the forest and nobody is there to see it that's david goggins he'll be out there screaming into the air by himself legitimately legitimately and so same as cam haynes yeah he's another one but he's not even screaming he's just that's the ultimate form cam haynes is just out there suffering yeah

and he works an eight hour a day job yeah yeah that is the quietest form of inspiration is cam haines because he's not that's not even i don't think he does like motivational stuff like where he's like screaming no he's like he just does the work just have you happen to see through the like a little bit through the inklings of information that he just runs non-stop well i see it because he's one of my best friends but i'm that i just you know i wrote the forward to his book and one of the things that i wrote is that he's doing an art form and it's an art form that very few people can participate in and very few people are going to appreciate unless you participate in it. And it's the art form of the maximized life. It's the art form of the grind for the grind's sake.

And if you can gaze into it and just separate yourself from your – that's one of the things that people want to do when they see a person like a Goggins or a Jocko or a Cam Haines. They want to compare themselves and oftentimes they come up short they they it's they're unfavorably comparing their life to this person and they realize that this person is more disciplined than me this person is they're doing things that I just I'll fall short some days and they don't fall short they just keep fucking grinding they keep fucking

grinding and i think it's a performance i think it's like a it's a wild form of art because it's the it's the conquest over the mind the conquest over laziness and procrastination and and that little that little voice in your head it's like you don't have to get up today you don't have to do it today. Not one of my favorite things that Goggins has. He goes, sometimes I stare at my shoes for a half hour before I put on those motherfuckers.

But I always do. Yeah. And he, I think you've recently been posting about that, that very much. That's the battle with that voice. And it's not even the, I think he posted something about not that's the battle with that voice and it's not even the i think he posted something about not even having a conversation with that voice just

don't don't think don't think stop thinking thinking is dumb yeah just do it and yeah that um that's only like if whenever i've done especially physical stuff uh but but also just work stuff uh the only like the best way to do something really difficult is just to do it. There's no, like, thinking. You can't have a way out. Yeah, cut off. And that was the quitting. I've quit a few times in my life, just like on stupid shit.

And I've realized that if you quit once even on a small thing like that opens the door then you know that you can quit the little demons little demons come and talk lax that's why i never this is the last time i'm quitting on a on a run i quit when i i was doing um i decided with myself like three years ago i'll run a marathon just for fun. And then I quit when I was at 22 miles. I remember I was like shivering really cold. And then I remember thinking like, why am I doing this? This is stupid.

And for months after, I realized I just gave myself an out. Like I decided I'm going to do a marathon. And I stopped because I was shivering and I convinced myself. You went four miles. Yeah. And I was thinking, like, I called an Uber. Wow. So I was just sitting there.

I was like, this is right. This is fine. This is fine. I got 22 miles. This is fine. It's still impressive. It's still impressive. And 22 miles is a lot. Most people don't run 22 miles. This is fine. It's still impressive. It's still impressive. And 22 miles is a lot.

Most people don't run 22 miles. Yeah. And then it stayed with me for months. It still stays with me. And then you realize, no. Do you ever wonder, though, like the problem with that voice is the voice is never satisfied. The voice that wants to keep going is never satisfied. Like you can kill yourself with that voice.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, I did this thing in the ice bath where I did 20 minutes in the ice bath. You could have died there. No, I was okay at 20 minutes, but I was thinking of going a lot longer.

I was thinking of going a lot longer. I was thinking of going to a place where I don't think anybody could go. I was like, how far can you go? Yeah. How far can you go where you don't die, but you get real close? Yeah. And this is before I had the sauna set up. I didn't have the sauna next to the ice bath yet. Now I do, because I feel like I can go even further if I have that sauna right there. I know I could just get out and get into that 185 degrees and warm me up real quick. I wonder how far you can go. Because I think I spent I think our Wim Hof has done 60 minutes in a barrel full of ice

and water That's a long time. We could do 20. How come you can't do 60? What is the number like what's the number? Where's where's hypothermia come in like where where are you being a pussy and where's hypothermia? Like where do they meet? One hour, 52 minutes, and 42 seconds. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. One hour, 52 minutes, and 42 seconds.

He's got the Guinness Book of World Records for sitting in an ice bath. Wow. That's what I'm saying. See? I'm i'm right but you got to be careful see like my ability to control my body is like blue belt shit he's like hicks and gracie black belt the question is how good are you yeah how good are you at knowing how close to death you are? Because that's important to be a black belt in. Right. It's the 40% for Goggins.

Like, how close are you to the... Also, he's got a bunch of assholes staring at him. That would annoy the fuck out of me. That would probably help. They're going to call him a pussy if he gets out. They keep pouring ice on him, too. I wonder what it was like. I'd like to talk to him about what the recovery was like after he got out of it.

Is this after? Yeah, this is him getting out. What's that 20 on his? It says 2011. I think this is when it. Well, that was videos in 2010. What's he doing? He got out.

He's doing dips and shit. Read your poem, my friend. Let's get this out of here. Read your poem, my friend. Another drink? You looked at that like you want some more. Yeah, just a little bit more. Get a little bit more here.

My neighbor is a professional country musician, John Wolf. He's big on tequila. He says if you want to be a cowboy, you've got to drink tequila. He's got an album coming out. That sounds very specific. Malice on one side, country musician on the other. This is Austin life. I love it out here.

Isn't it great? Have you got a gun yet? I'll give you one. I can give you a gun. Does a gentleman kiss and tell? Is that not about guns? You can have a gun out here and tell people. I feel like I don't want to have a lot of guns until I train.

Oh, well, let's train. Yeah. Come on. I'll take you out. Invitation accepted. I was just at Taron Tactical in LA last weekend. Is there a similar kind of thing? Yeah, there's a shitload of them.

I can't believe I just even... There's a lot. But I tell you, Taron is one of the best on earth. It's amazing learning from that guy. Okay, this is about not letting that little fire of hope, love, die. One of the best poems ever, Bukowski.

Bluebird, you know the poem? Yes, I do. Yeah. Probably my favorite Bukowski poem. There's a bluebird in my heart that wants to get out, but I'm too tough for him. I say, stay in there. I'm not going to let anybody see you. There's a bluebird

in my heart that wants to get out. But I, let me take it. Pour whiskey on him and inhale cigarette smoke and the whores and the bartenders and the grocery clerks never know that he's in there. There's a bluebird in my heart that wants to get out. But I'm too tough for him. I say, stay down. Do you want to mess me up? You want to screw up the works?

You want to blow my book sales in Europe? There's a bluebird in my heart that wants to get out. But I'm too clever. I only let him out at night sometimes when everybody's asleep I say I know that you're there so don't so don't be sad then I put him back but he's still singing a little in there I haven't quite let him die and we sleep together like that, with our secret pact. And it's nice enough to make a man weep. But I don't weep. Do you? Do you, Joe Rogan?

I weep all the time. I do. I cry mostly when I'm happy. Yeah, I mostly cry for happy things, but that's a beautiful poem. Do you cry? Yes. When do you cry? Whenever there a yes when do you cry? um

whenever there's a good father son scene in a movie like movie blow aww aww anyway it's an honor to be here it's an honor to be your friend

it's an honor to be your friend I uh I love you brother I love you too thank you so much for having me I love you too thank you everybody bye bye

keep it together, bitches.