The Joe Rogan Experience - #1735 - Peter Attia

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Peter Attia is a physician focused on the applied science of longevity and the host of "The Drive" podcast.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hello, Peter. Hello, Joe. Good to see you. We're fucking neighbors, man. How are you liking the move? Loving it.

You've been here a year now, right? A solid year? A little over, yeah. Yeah? Loving it? I don't know why it took so long. Yeah've been here a year now, right? A solid year? A little over. Yeah. Yeah. Loving it. I don't know what took so long. Yeah. It's a different world, right? Yeah. When you live in a place that only has a million people, it's like, oh, like, wow, this is, uh, you could do everything here. If I'd done this three years earlier, I could have paid half as much for my house too. That's the other thing. Right. It's so smart to have done this in 2017. Well, lucky he did it then and not now

because now it's even harder. It's harder to find a house. It's almost impossible. Yeah. I mean, every person we introduce to our real estate agent says the same thing, which is like- You have to build. Yeah.

Yeah. It's that wild, which is, I guess, good. I don't know. It's tricky because Google's building their – they have this gigantic sail-looking building near the river. Have you seen it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so there's going to be a bunch of wokesters running around from that place.

They have to fill that building up, you know, and then, you know, you get – is there a more woke corporation than Google? Yes. Which Google? Yes. Which one? Microsoft. Really? Oh, I did see that. Did you hear that thing Ben Shapiro did?

No. Oh my God. I didn't hear it. What did he do? He did, it's so funny that I went and listened to it again, recorded it on my phone off my computer just so I could text it to my friends. So they had this thing where- I saw the thing.

Where they introduced, everyone introduced themselves. With their pronouns and they described themselves. You're right. So I would say, hi, my name is Peter Attia. I'm a light-skinned guy with a shaved head wearing a green shirt. I go by he, him. Yeah. And you would say Caucasian probably.

Yes, yes, I would. I would, right. Yeah. But then one of the women said, before we begin, I would just like to state that our land, the land that this building sits on was actually once owned by her. And she rattled off 17 tribes. Yes. At which point, like my brother was like, well, just show me the title deed. Like, is it yours or is it theirs?

Because if it's theirs, you really should give it back. What is happening? What's going on? But Microsoft, which is interesting, they were never like this. Like all of a sudden they went full tilt. They just went from zero to 11. Right? They don't have a history of like ads that were woke.

I don't know. It has provided. Give me some volume on this because it's so stupid. And lots in store for you. First, we want to acknowledge that the land where the Microsoft campus is situated was traditionally occupied

by the Sammamish, the Duwamish, the Snoqualmie, the Suquamish, the Muckleshoot, the Snoholmish, the Tulalip, and other Coast Salish peoples since time immemorial.

A people that are still here, continuing to honor and bring to light their ancient heritage. My name is Allison Wine. Hey, give back their land. I'm a Senior Program Manager in our Developer Tools Division. I'm an Asian and white female with dark brown hair wearing a red sleeveless top. I'm watching this. And I'm Seth Juarez, program manager of the AI Platform Group. I'm a tall Hispanic male wearing a blue shirt, khaki pants.

Today we kick off two days of learning more about the latest solutions, exploring how these key innovations can empower you to do great things, and connecting with peers around the world. They didn't tell their pronouns. The other folks told their pronouns. Was that for hearing impaired people? No, it's for visually impaired people. Which is the greatest irony, right? It's like

we want the people who can't see our color to know our color. Ooh, right. It literally is the most logically inconsistent thing you could ever have with what we think are the right values. That's interesting. How much racism is there in amongst visually impaired people well apparently they'll be more now because we get but I mean if you

really stop and think about it like they can't make that distinction they can only judge people based on how the people communicate with them they can't look at someone and prejudge they're probably the least racist people alive. Well, we're going to fix that. But all the fucking shit about the thing that's ironic is she's describing all the different tribes that have owned the land. Well, why do you think there's so many? It's because they killed each other and stole the land from each other. Like, what the fuck are you saying?

each other and stole the land from each other like the fuck are you saying like there was a michael knowles had this conversation i watched on youtube where this professor this woke professor was uh trying to say that we should give back land to native tribes and uh he was like okay but which ones you got to decide which ones because like the comanche took it from the apache took it from the and he was like going through the history of took it from the Apache, took it from the, and he was like going through the history of it. It's like, how do you decide? Like, do you go back? Well, the Comanche took it from you, but you took it from the Navajo, but the Navajo took

it from the Pawnee. And like, oh, I'm going to ask her because she'll know. It's so exhausting. What is happening to us? This wokeness, you know, it's easy to say the pendulum's going to swing the other way and it probably will. But, and my brother actually said this and I think he's accurate. It's not a pendulum. It's a wrecking ball, right? A pendulum implies just this benign little thing that's going to go back, but it's not, it's going to go.

Right. And it's going to kill a bunch of people and ruin a bunch of lives and careers on the way back to some reasonable equilibrium. I think the only reasonable equilibrium is mind reading software. I really do. I think the reasonable equilibrium is going to be something that allows us to read each other's mind so that there's no confusion whatsoever about what your intent is. Although, did you hear the person, um, I forwarded this article. So I have a group text with a bunch of friends and my brother where we just, this is our only outlet for this insanity. And, um, someone wrote, uh, actually John Stewart defended Dave Chappelle after the special and said, look, his intent was X, right? And this person, I don't

remember who it was. I don't remember what, you know, it was in the independent or something like that, wrote this whole thing saying intent is bullshit. Intent means nothing. And it was so ridiculous because the argument she gave was homicide. She's like, even if you don't mean to kill somebody, it's still manslaughter. To which we're all at the same time like yeah and there's a difference between first degree second degree involuntary like of course intent matters of course it matters yeah but the point is there are people now arguing intent is irrelevant that's the dumbest thing ever because like what if someone if you can be charged with manslaughter if you get in an argument with someone like say if you are in a situation with someone

and They bump into your car and you yell at them and they get in your face and take a swing at you and you knock Them out and they fall and hit their head and die You can get charged with manslaughter for that that is so much different than break it into someone's house and shooting them in the face Right. It's so much different like plotting out. So the intent is everything. Absolutely. And the idea of communication is always, it's always, I want to express my thoughts to you so you could better understand what I'm thinking and we can figure out what's right and what's

wrong. We can hash things out. We can work on a plan. If you don't know what the fuck a person really means and you're only going by words, like what are we, are we code now? Like intent doesn't matter. Emotions don't know what the fuck a person really means and you're only going by words, like what are we? Are we code now? Like intent doesn't matter. Emotions don't matter.

Thoughts don't matter. Of course it matters. It's like the only thing that makes us human. It's so dumb, but it's people taking advantage of what the internet provides, which is this ability to communicate and express outrage and push buttons, right? So because we have this new ability to do this, there's a lot of bad actors that use that, that use that ability to communicate to find things to complain about that are really not relevant. They're not really something you should be complaining about. And if you do complain about it, it's really because you don't have any legitimate problems in your real life. Well, I think the other thing is there's an insecurity. Actually, there's an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal today about this, right,

which is what was the title of the article was something along the lines of why the woke can't take a joke. And what it basically came down to was the, and this was quoting guys from like 100 years ago making the same thing when it came to jokes about religion. And the idea was if you aren't comfortable in your position, you're going to be easily offended when somebody rattles you, when somebody pokes fun at you. And if you're comfortable, like if I came here and said, oh, hunters are wankers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it wouldn't offend you because you're

very comfortable in your position, in your beliefs. And it's like, hey, if you don't like hunting, that's cool. But that says nothing about me. Well, it definitely wouldn't coming from you, because you're a hunter. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you came to me and said bow hunting is bullshit, I'd be like, ha ha. But if anybody said it to you, it wouldn't faze you. Well, it wouldn't, but it would be a conversation,

where I would probably, if I respected that person, I would want to either defend it or explain my position. But you wouldn't be offended is the point. You could engage with them as opposed to throwing up a flag. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing that we're doing right now with words. You know, this is a strange time where we're trying to ban words. We're trying to change the meaning of words and eliminate nuance in conversations.

And again, we're doing it because of social justice, right? And the people that use social media to try to enact social justice, which really doesn't change. It's not really getting anybody justice. It's just getting the rocks off of these people that enjoy complaining. And most of them really should be doing something else. Most of the people on Twitter should be doing something else. I have like radically reduced my amount of time on Twitter, but every now and then I open it up and it's like watching a fucking, like a room that's like five by five filled with 400 chickens and they're just squawking at each other and pecking each other. It's like, Jesus, this is horrible. It's so bad for your mental health. It's just people arguing and dunking on each other all day long. Even outside of that, my roommate from med school, who's a urologist,

called me yesterday because he couldn't wait to tell me this ridiculous story. So a colleague of his, this female urologist, who's a badass surgeon, was giving a lecture to the medical school, which is common, right? You'll always have the surgeon will come in or the doctor will come in. And before she got up to give her lecture, the dean said to her, I'm not making this up. This is a urologist giving a lecture to a group of medical students, said, I would appreciate it if you would not use the word penis during this lecture. He said it before the lecture? Yeah. She said, it's an anatomic term. I'm a urologist. What would you like me to say? And he came up with some idiotic, oh, he said, maybe you could call it male erectile tissue.

And she was like, well, she's now fucking with him. She's like, but what if it's flaccid? Wouldn't the use of male also be kind of triggering in that sense? I mean, good point. Yeah. I mean, and she basically told him to piss off. And what did this, this guy was the dean? The dean of the medical school.

And I assume he's a doctor as well? He should be. Yeah, yeah. If he's a dean of a medical school, he would be an MD. What in the fuck is wrong with people? I don't know. One of my favorite videos is there's a communist meeting, a meeting of these student communists. meeting, a meeting of these student communists. And they're criticizing each other for various things. And one of them gets up and tells everybody that please keep the chatter to a minimum

and be respectful for people that are easily distracted. And then another one gets up and they yell out to stop using gendered language because like he said guys can you guys please do this and so he gets up and says can you stop using gendered language it's just like you guys are like LARPers you know it's like live action roleplay like you're playing like you're in a different demand you want to hear it here it's it's hilarious and to win socialism thank you so much a quick point of privilege Quick point of personal privilege. Guys, first of all, James Jackson, Sacramento, he, him. I just want to say, can we please keep

the chatter to a minimum? I'm one of the people who's very, very prone to sensory overload. There's a lot of whispering and chatter going on. It's making it very difficult for me to focus. Please, can we just, I know we're all fresh and ready to go, but can we please just keep the chatter to a minimum? It's affecting my ability to focus. Thank you. Thank you, comrade. Okay, is there a speaker against name, chapter, pronoun? Point of personal privilege. Yes.

Please do not use gendered language to address everyone. And she calls everyone comrades too. It is adorable. These fucking kids are doomed. They're doomed. They're all going to have to join the military. There's no way to save them. Oh my God.

It's just so weird. It's like it happened so quick. Yeah, that's the thing. I keep saying to myself, where was the inflection point and how did I miss it? Well, I didn't totally miss it because I had a lot of people on that were, you know, six years ago, seven years ago, giving me warnings of like what's going on in the universities. But I didn't think the spillover would be so broad that it would like really make its way into corporations and I thought like there would be

a barrier. Yeah because it would be a containment sort of. Particularly with corporations because I thought they weren't going to tolerate that shit because it's going to affect their bottom line. But then they realized that you can sort of do what Microsoft is doing placate and play to the woke and

then it will somehow or another help you financially but I don't think it does you know Apple's looking pretty good after that fucking commercial which one I didn't the Microsoft one oh oh yeah yeah

the Squamish and the Chumash well hey just wait I'm sure they'll come up with their own version I don't think they will I don't think they'll go that far I mean they're pretty woke but they seem a little bit more reasonable. The craziest thing is that all of this is coming through devices that are made by slave

labor. At the end of the day, it's so hypocritical that all these people tweeting about social justice and all the wrongs of the world, you're doing it on a fucking device that's made by child slaves. Like, sorry, you want to buy an iPhone? You got to get something that's essentially made by people that are getting slave wages. They're working 16 hours a day in a building that has nets around it to keep suicide people from jumping off the roof. That's Foxconn.

That's where they make them. They don't make them here. They're not making them in Ohio with folks that are in a union that get paid great wages and benefits and can take care of their families. Uh-uh. No. No. We want to try to keep the bottom line nice and low.

So in order for you to tweet about social justice, you have to do it on a device that's made by people that are not much better than slaves. Not more well off. Not more well off. They're really not. It's fucked. It's crazy that there's no outrage to that. Well, the outrage is silent.

That's the problem. I mean, we're all, you know, I guess I should be more vocal about it. You should be more vocal about it. Everybody should be more vocal about it. Because there's no way the majority of people are looking at this and thinking it's reasonable no they're not but we're not doing enough about it we're not doing anything about it yeah yeah there's no one no one has made a push to make a phone in America unless there's something I don't know about is

there a phone made in America let's see if there is a phone made in America I bet there is not one I'm willing to bet there's not one and if there is a phone made in America. I bet there is not one. I'm willing to bet there's not one. And if it is, it's a piece of shit. I heard Elon's thinking of making a phone. There's some talk of a Tesla phone. If that happens, he might be like the only one. If Tesla does that, they might be the only ones that could sway people from iPhones. Yeah. I think you're right. Right?

If anybody can, because it's hard. Like, Samsung has some amazing phones. The cameras are incredible, but people look at that green text coming in, they're like not doing it, you know? But if, like, someone like Elon convinced people to switch over to Signal, which is probably better for everybody anyway, to have some peer-to-peer encrypted application. Librem 5 USA. This is a Linux phone, isn't it?

Yes. Made in the USA. Electronics with a secure supply chain. What does that mean? Made with a secure supply chain. What does that mean? Made with a secure supply chain. What does that mean? If you want a smartphone built outside China in the walled gardens of Google and Apple,

this may be for you, according to the register. So it's real? Yeah, I just Googled. 32 gigabytes. Get the fuck out of here. My phone is a terabyte, you fucking idiots. There you go. It's the equivalent of your flip phone.

What else is in there? It's for essential communications. Scroll back up so I can see the stats. Look at that. 5.7 inch screen. Okay, it's kind of small. Three gigabytes of memory. Piss poor.

32 gigabytes of storage. That's terrible. But 4,500 milliamp battery is substantial. And replaceable. Ooh, that's nice. The big battery is substantial. But thatable. Ooh, that's nice. The big battery is substantial, but that probably means that it's not water resistant if it's got a replaceable battery.

Hmm. So Pure OS is what it runs. It would be a phone. That's made in America. Right, according to this. Hmm. Unless there's some sneaky stuff, too. Well, what I'm worried about is, I think they said

they used supply chain. Secure US supply chain smartphone. You're not saying what I want you to say. What I want you to say is everything is made in America. All fabrication and manufacturing done at the Purism facility. Fabrication and manufacturing. Individual components used in the fabrication are sourced direct from the chip market as a part of the distribution. That means they're from other countries.

We use U.S. companies with U.S. fabrication whenever possible, but that doesn't mean it's from the U.S. Most distributors are based in the U.S. Most, with the exception of large integrated circuits that are made in a variety of countries where those companies do fabrication, U.S., Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. Well, those companies, at least those countries that they just listed, aren't using slave labor. As an example of NXPCBU used from their fabrication in South Korea. While we source chips made from the U.S. wherever possible, chip country of origin is not nearly as meaningful

as country of board fabrication, especially when all chips are verified Hardware circuits that are driven by free software in the kernel. Yeah, these kernel motherfuckers. He's Linux guys They start talking kernel and they my eyes gloss over. There's a chip shortage to write. Yeah, whatever that mean I don't know what that means means it's hard every car. car. Yeah. A friend was trying to buy a Ford Raptor. He couldn't get one. Oh, yeah. It's like I ordered my pickup truck. I wanted to get one in a manual, so I had an old Tacoma, gave it to my brother-in-law.

You wanted to get a pickup truck and a manual transmission? There's only two that are still made. Who makes it? Tacoma makes a limited edition Pro Sport. And the Jeep pickup truck comes in a manual. Oh. Well, the Jeep kind of makes sense. I can't believe Tacoma still a limited edition pro sport. And the Jeep pickup truck comes in a manual. Oh, well, the Jeep kind of makes sense. I can't believe Tacoma still does that. Why do you want a manual pickup truck?

I want my daughter to be able to drive manual. Oh. And I just miss driving manual. Really? I grew up driving manual. And about six years ago when all cars went to dual clutch, like when sports cars went to dual clutch, I basically gave it up. Because I still drive manual on the track, but I kind of miss it on the road. And I just – I do want my daughter to drive a manual.

I feel it will keep her – well, also it will like – you'll be texting less and screwing around less. I hope. So – Maybe not. But anyway, the point is I ordered the thing like six months ago and it's always like a month away. Yeah, because – It will be a month away for another year. Yeah, I have manual cars.

I have a bunch of manual cars, but they're older cars. Like I have a 2007 Porsche GT3 RS. That's a manual. That Gunther Works Porsche is a manual. I got a 70 Chevelle. That's a manual. 69 Camaro. That's a manual.

I got a bunch of manual cars. That 69 Camaro is a four-speed? No, it's a Restomod. It's a six speed with an 850 horsepower engine. The 07 GT3 must be nice. Oh, it's fun. Yeah. It's really fun. It's a shark works car too. Oh yeah. Yeah. Great sound. It's got 518 horsepower. That's because of the exhaust. It's boosting it that much. No, they, they bore it out to 3.9 liters from 3.6.

Yeah, yeah. You know what Shark works? Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I almost had it on mine. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.

They make awesome stuff. And they're a big fan of manuals. They don't really particularly like dual clutch cars either. So they particularly like like Gen 1 and like 997, Gen 1 and Gen 2 RSs that you could really juice up. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny. I wanted to get a GT3 in the 992.1. And the Porsche dealer here said, no problem.

We have an allocation. We can get you one. But you're going to spend $75,000 over MSRP. And I was like, wait a minute. You're going to charge me. The dealer is going to charge me $75,000 over the MSRP? No chance. That's so much more. Yeah. I'm like, I need a little.

You can buy a 991.2 RS for less. Yeah. That's dumb. Yeah. I'll give you a taste. You can get a taste. You get a little bit. You can't ask for $75,000. That's just hoping that someone's a rich asshole and they're just willing to throw the money down to have it. But you can get them from other states. Like there's, you know, if you have a dealer. I actually called three other dealers and the lowest premium I was getting was $40,000 over.

Really? But I was just on principle. I'm like, I'm not doing it. Like that's, I'm not. It's the same reason there's certain watches i just won't buy because i'm not willing to pay the premium over but when it's based on a false scarcity you know right right it just it just irks me the watch market is very weird with that there's some watches that you see them and you're like why is that a hundred thousand dollars. I have sold more watches in the last few years, and I'm wearing like a $100 G-Shock that I love.

Are you trying to get away from the watch fetish? No, I mean, I have. Do you drink caffeine? Yeah, yeah. Kill clip. No, I mean, I think I just had too many, and I wouldn't wear them all, and it just didn't make sense. And so I kind of, I still have a lot of old watches that I really like, like kind of 60s, 50s.

Oh really? You collect them? Yeah. What do you got? What kind do you like? the kind of the Daytona, the no date subs and the GMTs in that first iteration. So the, the, the guilt version, which is kind of the yellow, like it has the brighter, um, marks on it. Yeah. So I got a few years ago before they got really silly in pricing. Um, a guy that I work with, his name's Andrew Shear in New York who does just vintage Rolex. He calls me up and I had told him for about a year and a half. I wanted a certain, I go into the guilt one,

six, seven, five GMT. And he, I remember I was getting on a plane. I was at Newark just leaving. And he goes, sends me a picture.

And I'm like, dude, that's like new old stock. That's he goes, yeah, it was like some guy bought it in Hong Kong in 1967. It sat in a shoe box for till now. Wow.

So it doesn't have any patina, no fade, no nothing? It actually still has a little bit of a patina just based on how old it is, but it's in perfect condition. I love that watch. You know what I don't like? I like some of the watches, but I don't like that they're doing this. They're doing a faux patina on some watches. It's so weird.

Like I got the Omega. I'm a big Omega fan. And I got the James Bond, the No Time to Die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you get the one with the metal bracelet? Yeah. Yeah, I just got that too. It's amazing.

It's a beautiful watch. I'm just, I'm a big fan of their, I'm actually wearing one of their dive watches. But the, that one they used that faux patina. And I'm like, why did you do that? This is one thing that kept it from being perfect it's a beautiful i love i love tropical dials and that's what makes that watch to me so beautiful tropical what do you mean like that brown color oh that's tropical

yeah so tropical is like kind of one of the most sought after thing in a daytona if you get if you get an old daytona with a tropical face, they're hard to find, but they're gorgeous. Watches are weird because there's something about it that appeals to men more than it does to women. I know there's a lot of women that are watch collectors, but it seems if I'm paying attention to the internet and watching videos, it's a male-dominated jewelry thing. Totally. Which is the only male-dominated jewelry thing that I could ever really think about. I don't think there's another one.

Because it's weird because it's a jewelry thing, but it's also a mechanical thing. Like there's something about the engineering of the devices. I think that's why. It is our jewelry. Yeah. But the mechanics of it are beautiful. If you like Omega, which I'm also very partial to Omega, the Ed White re-release Speedmaster 321 caliber is unbelievable. Which one's that? It's my favorite Omega.

What does it look like? I have a couple of Speedmasters. So it looks just like a pretty regular Speedmaster except that it has the caliber 321, which was the up to 1969 caliber. So this is the Moonwatch. So in 1969, they discontinued the caliber 321 and they went to the caliber 1861, which is what they basically rode up until a few years ago. But the purist loves that 321. The problem is if you go back and buy one from the 60s i i have one i have an old one as well they're not the most reliable in the world they're hard to service

you know all sorts of things so when they redid this they had to basically they didn't even have the original drawings for it anymore they had to go back and look at existing watches and kind of extrapolate from the wear in the existing watches to what the movement did. Oh, wow. That's amazing. So they had to back engineer it? Yep. They had to reverse engineer it. Is that it right there?

Yep. So there you go. That's pretty. I love watching those little things move around because you realize that they figured this out in the 1800s. Yeah. Or probably even before, right? With pocket watches?

Yeah. When was the first pocket watch? That's a good question. Let's take a guess before we Google it. Jamie, what do you think? First pocket watch. With mechanics that work like that? Yeah, yeah.

Wind up. They were all wind up ones. I'm going to go old 15, no, let's say before that, so like 1450-ish. Really? They had to use something like that probably for maneuvering the oceans, I'm guessing. I don't know. How would they even agree to what time it was? I don't have any idea. I'm just guessing.

Before they agreed to what time it was, no one had a fucking clue. Right? They were using sundials and things like that. There was a time in history where no one agreed what time it was. Like how was Big Ben? That's probably the first agreement. That's a good point. That's the fucking time right there. no one agreed what time it was. Well, like how old's Big Ben? Like that's probably the first agreement because they're like, hey, that's the fucking time right there.

Right. That's a good point. Big Ben. I'm going to guess Big Ben is from 1800. All right. I was not too far off. I'm going to go a little earlier. Really? Okay.

Hit me with it. 1510. 1510 is the first watch? German watchmaker Peter Heinlein. So he's like, this is the time? It's here? This is it? He's like, just decided.

He's the first guy to decide what the time is. Because everybody else is like, well, fuck you. I don't think that's the time. Like, you could decide. Right? If you go back to caveman days, there's no time. And then as, like, no one has any idea what the time is. But as time moves forward and we get closer and closer to modern era there had to come a point in time where they decided

All right, we're good. This is what noon is Right here. Yeah, I love the way in which like how accurately we can record time now, right? We're the time it clocks. That's kind of mind-boggling to me. Is it confusing us, though? Because we're, instead of looking at actual time, which is a thing that's existing right now only, there is the past and there is the future, but actual real time is just this. You can measure how long things take, but is it confusing us as to what time actually is? Because what we're really doing is measuring time on devices. We're measuring seconds that go

by, hours that go by, minutes that go by. It's not giving you an excuse to not be prompt, but it's really kind of bullshit. Well, I don't know, but I will say this, not having a watch on feels great sometimes. not having a phone with you feels great and you know being in nature like when you're hunting i do wear a watch but only because i want to know where we are in relation to sun up and sun down yes but outside of that like yeah you'd have you have no care in the world you know you right you care about wind you care about wind, you care about scent, you care about other things. Did I tell you about the mountain lion I saw?

No. I didn't tell you. When we were in Utah, I saw a giant mountain lion. Fucking giant. Like as big as me. It was huge. What? It was huge. How far from you?

We were in a truck, luckily, and it was about 30 yards away. My friend Colton spotted it. We were driving, and he hits the brakes. He goes, that fucking mountain lion. And I'm like, where? And then I see its eyes because it was starting to get dark out, but it was still light, and its eyes were glowing. And I put up the binoculars to take a look at it closer through the windshield, and I was like, holy fuck.

It was huge. I did not know they got that big. They get to 200 pounds. The one that I saw previously, I saw one in Santa Barbara. And it was probably like 70 pounds, 60 pounds. It was pretty small. And then I saw another one in Colorado, but it was so brief. It was hard to tell.

And that one seemed the same size. It seemed like a smaller juvenile one. This was not a juvenile. This was a 100% full-grown Tom with a big old pumpkin head and huge paws. And the forearms were wild. Like, that was the weirdest thing. Like, looking at his forearms were as big as my thighs. I was like, fuck, look at this fucking thing. It was just looking at us, you know, and it was under a tree.

I'll kill it was just looking at us. You know and it was under a tree and you know we opened up the car door and Tried to like get film of it and look at it closer, and it took off And it was so big Because I was thinking like if I was out there on my own You know because people do that all the time they hunt solo, and they don't carry a weapon You know like Colton didn't have a weapon. I only had a bow and arrow and here's this giant ass fucking cat like if we zigged when we should have zagged and all of a sudden we're on top of this thing and it

decides to pounce on us fuck that better be a good tri pan yeah did you see that video of the guy who shot the mountain lion in the face no jamie it's uh he's hunting too and uh he's got a glock out and he's telling this mountain line hey back up back up and it's not even it's a smaller one like a 90 pound one but he's saying to it hey fuck off like get out of here and then it makes a move on him and you know he drops his phone you hear crack crack here well at least one shot one shot um and then you see the thing twitching on the ground it's got a bullet hole in its face wow yeah but doesn't have that gun he's fucked because occasionally they will jump on people and that's the situation this guy was in like Like, look at this. Give me some volume. Rewind it and give me the volume

because when it's looking at its face... Get back. Look at that. Get back. You get back. You get back. Look at that fucking thing. Ah, ah, ah.

No. No. No. back no no mother i just had to shoot this mountain lion they pounced at me and i popped it in the face holy holy that is wild, right? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. At least he's got like 100% proof of self-defense. I mean, that thing was like 10 feet from him.

Wow. It was so, and apparently it went, look at that. That's where he shot it, right through the face. Apparently it was about to pounce what do you do you got to do that man yeah but do you i don't bring a pistol with me oh no but i mean you know it's funny i never thought about it except if you're hunting boars right that's the one time when you're like you you have to have a gun with you if you're shooting a boar they will charge you yeah yeah and they'll they'll charge you if you hit them they'll charge you if you don't like if you're shooting a boar. They will charge you. Yeah. Yeah. And they'll, they'll charge

you if you hit them, they'll charge you if you don't like if you're bow hunting. Like I was watching a show once where the guy was packing and he shot a pig, a wild boar with a bow and arrow and it came charging full clip at him with the arrow hanging out of its body and he had to shoot it. Speaking of shooting, this range down the street from you is incredible. Which range? Whatever, the Austin Gun Club. Oh, the range. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The range, the indoor range. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, that place is really good. Yeah, I just went there for the first time today. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, we have a corporate membership there. It's nice. Everybody can go bang, bang.

It's good. Shooting guns is something you really have to do on a fairly regular basis. What do you think the frequency is? Because it's not as frequent as archery. I mean, archery, if I go two days without shooting my bow, I notice a difference. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

What do you figure it is? Like you got to do it once a month, twice a month? I think once a month is reasonable as long as you really do take time and you make a lot of shots and you have good form and you're really paying attention to what you're doing you know i think um there's just too many people that have a gun and think that they're safe and they don't know how to use it at all they don't practice with it like it's really kind of strange you could just buy a gun like you don't really have to have like to get a concealed carry permit you have to show competency but you don't really have to do that for a regular i mean

first time i bought a gun was in 1994 when i first moved to california and i just walked into a gun shop and i said i want to buy a pistol. So I bought a Glock. I still own it, and I paid for it. They did a background check. I think it was like a few days. I got the gun. That's it. You don't have to know shit.

I mean, I shot it at that range, but you don't really have to know much. And when I shot it at the range, nobody taught me how to shoot it. I just shot it. I'm just like, okay, you put the bullets here and this is where the trigger is and point it down there. Okay, bang, bang, bang. And now at least with YouTube, like there are some people out there putting really good content out where you can, if you're a newbie, you can say, okay, well. Yes. Show me how, what's the right technique?

Yes. What are the mistakes that people make here and stuff like that? But yeah, back in the day, I mean. You really should get, I think you should get one-on-one instruction if you can afford it. I don't know how much it costs to get someone to teach you how to shoot a gun correctly, but someone should show you how to hold it,

where to place your hand and where you should put the pressure and which hand should be relaxed and how to line your sights up correctly. That's something that's a little tricky to do in a video. For me, the long-range stuff is I just bought an Accuracy International 300 Norma Mag, like super, super long-range rifle. And for me, and it's actually too big a gun for hunting.

So it's not – Really? It serves – yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a little too long. Like the long barrel? It's just too heavy a gun to take into the field. Oh. Amazing weapon for hunting because the.300 Norma mag is a ridiculous caliber. Like that'll knock an elk over if you hit it in the shoulder at 1,000 yards.

Wow. But this is a gun that you can work your way out to shooting a mile, you know, shooting a dinner plate at a mile, which is just, again, that to me is the joy, right? Like that's the fun is learning the wind and learning the technique. Because it is in the sense like archery. You know, in archery, if you can't control the pressure of your hand on the riser, you know, at 20 yards it doesn't matter. But at 80 yards it matters everything.

Yeah. And it's the same thing with those guns like out you know if you're if if you're not on the clavicle the right way and your face is not on this the right way and your trigger isn't pulling back perfectly like all of that stuff just amplifies mistakes um so for me that's that's the most fun thing is those otherwise not particularly helpful long range rifles yeah Yeah. When you really get into archery, long range shows you where your mistakes are. You know, I was talking to Lee Lekoski and he was saying that for people who don't know, Lee Lekoski is a very famous bow hunter.

And, uh, he was telling me that if he shoots a hundred arrows, 99 of them are at a hundred yards. Wow. He says, that's, that's how you find out where your form is and he goes and that's how it's repeatable because he shot an elk at a pretty far distance this year and he was explaining it to me he said i i have a whole process that i do when i shoot in the field versus when i shoot at a target like it's the process. So he just does exactly what he does at home and he's done it so many times that he's very confident that if he does have an 80 plus yard shot on an elk that he can make it perfectly.

What is your comfort range in the field, not at home? I've shot a lot of elk at 60 yards, 67 I shot one at 75 yards that was the one in California right yeah yeah that guy was bedded for a while yeah yeah yeah but I was relaxed and I'd been shooting at 75 yards a lot and I felt comfortable like there was no wind I was comfortable and you know an elk is a large target if I was going to shoot a deer it'd be significantly less i shot an axis once at 69 um but it was a good situation he was 100 broadside and not at all jumpy i mean no clue i was there but in retrospect i still think that's a bit i don't know that i would take that shot again 69 doesn't leave you much margin for error on a deer they're not that

big they're so small especially yeah what are they weigh 120 pounds like a big one I mean a good I mean the biggest one I've ever shot was 200 really yeah he was a beast oh wow what island was this Maui oh no kidding I've never been hunting on Maui you got to come in yeah it's I think it's ten times better than one I really why the terrain you're up on the volcano, right? That makes sense. Haleakala is, I mean, the density of deer is not as high as lanai, of course, but the terrain is insane.

And the bucks are huge. Like there are lots of 30-inch bucks out there. Oh, wow. Well, the density in lanai is almost like a problem. Right. It's like too many eyes on you. It's just too weird. It's just too weird. It's also too weird.

It's like, I kind of feel like you could just close your eyes and draw back and launch into the sky and you might hit something. Cute. You know? I mean, there's so many deer out there. For people who don't know what lanai is, it's a very small island in the hawaiian islands chain and it has 30 000 deer on it which is so crazy to say right i think 3 000 people that's right and and molokai has 70 000 what it's crazy that's insane yeah and and maui has the most i believe but obviously it's a bigger island maui has more than 70,000. I think

I used to know the numbers for each of the three islands, but I think Maui might have like a hundred thousand. Are they as jumpy in Maui as they are in Lanai? Cause in Lanai they're so pressured because they hunt them so often. I mean, that's the funny thing with them. When, even when you're up in, in Haleakala, they're still jumpy. And I keep thinking like, why? They haven't been around humans, but their evolution is so strong. I guess when you spend half a billion years getting away from tigers, you don't turn that off in 50 years. No. I mean, that is the fucking animal, right? If there's one animal that you evolved to get away from and you have to be fast, I mean, their way they can jump a string is so crazy like the bow goes off and there they hear the sound they're gone

It's amazing. It's so weird to see a move like that It's like how does the central nervous system must be just so fucking tight and wired like a drum You know they need some stress management techniques I know but this weird because they seem so peaceful until that moment. They're like immediate to 100. Yeah. Because they don't seem jumpy until they jump. Yeah.

It's amazing. Well, it's like what else are they going to do? This is the problem with Australia. It's the problem with New Zealand. It's like in Australia, they've made giant mistakes with that where they brought in other animals to try to tolerate to try to mitigate the number of you know this or that and then those animals wind up wiping out native populations of nesting birds like cats like feral cats in Australia it's a giant problem what the axis deer are doing in Hawaii is is

brutal for Hawaii it It's just killing that state. And what can they do other than hire people to shoot them? I mean, at this point, you know, Jake Muse, my friend who runs that company out there, that's Maui Nui Venison, these guys that are making, you know, commercializing, they have a USDA grade commercial program for making axis deer and they're about as efficient as they get. He, he does not think they're, they're not even going to be able to flatten the population curve till 2030. Whoa. So it's going to continue growing till 2030. Are they just making those venison sticks or are they selling steaks and everything? Oh, that's great. How does someone, let's great. How does someone get a hold of that?

Because that is a great opportunity for you to get actual, real, legitimate wild game. And it happens to be one of the most delicious wild games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you go to, I assume, and by the way, I should just disclose, I'm an investor. But Maui Nui Venison, if you just, I think you just order online. How do you spell that? Maui Nui Venison. See if you could find online. How do you spell that? Maui Nui Venison. See if you could find that.

Yeah, see what pops up. I can't recommend Venison from Axis Deer enough. It is so delicious. Okay, so this is nice. I usually get boxes for friends as a gift when they're being introduced to Wild Game. Oh, they have bone broth too. Dude, it's insane. The bone broth is next level this is amazing the company that we had do the analysis on the protein content repeated the analysis twice because they didn't believe how much protein it

had in it 25 grams of protein and a fucking yeah bone broth yeah whoa they were, yeah, this is 2X every other animal we've ever seen. There must be a mistake. They just repeated it over and over again. Look how delicious that must be. Let me see that. I'll tell you, you use this as your stock and make rice? It's insane. Oh, nice.

How much does that shit cost? I don't know. I just bought it as part of it. Whoa, $125. For eight bags. Oh, eight bags. Oh, 15 ounces each. Oh, that's nice.

I'm in. But what's amazing about this, and I think this is why it tastes so good, it tastes better than when you and I shoot one. Because when you and I shoot an axis deer, even if it's a perfect shot, that animal still takes a minute to die. In other words, there's still a minute of stress in its life. Oh, and these guys, they headshot them. They headshot them at night.

So they're using night vision. They're 200 yards away. Silencers. Yep. It's. And the animals are so unstressed that if there's like, they'll shoot a group. There'll be 12 of them there, right?

And they'll have the sniper. He shoots one. Billy goes down. The other 11 don't even move. Wow. Yeah. Where'd Billy go? I don't know. And the next guy gets it. Billy's taking a nap. Billy goes down. The other 11 don't even move. Wow. Yeah. Where'd Billy go? I don't know.

And the next guy gets it. Billy's taking a nap. Yeah. Wow. And then they process on site. So there's a USDA inspector with the sniper for every single shot. Every carcass is examined. It has to be a perfect kill. That's a great way to get meat.

It really is. If you want to think about an ethical way for you to consume meat, if you're one of those people that doesn't want to buy a factory farm meat, get some of that. I can't, I mean, next to hunting, that is about as good as you can get. Do you find your taste for non-wild game has gone down? Well, when I eat a fatty piece of domestic beef, I think of it like a sloppy, lazy person. Like, you know what I mean? Like if I see an athlete and then I go, wow, that guy looks like he's in shape.

And then I see a sloppy, lazy person, I'm like, oh, poor sloppy, lazy person. But I just find that, like, and again, we're lucky, right? We get to hunt these animals. We get to eat the elk. We get to eat the axis deer. These are, you know, along with maybe pronghorn and a few others, this is about as tasty as it gets. But boy, I find that even a really nice ribeye

just doesn't taste as good as it did to me five years ago. Yeah, well it's missing a lot of nutrition. It's not, if you look at the dark red meat of elk, like elk, like a backstrap from elk is a dark red, like I took a photo a couple days ago of some backstrap from the elk I shot in California this year. I just cooked it up. This was your 415.

Yeah, that giant one. Amazing. Yeah, it was huge. This is so much meat. What I do is I'll cook a bunch of pieces like that and then I'll eat it throughout the week. How did you prep that?

Did you do that on the Traeger? Yes. I cook it on a Traeger at 265 degrees. I've tried a bunch of the reason why it's blackened on the outside is I'm using a rub called Traeger Saskatchewan I think it's blackened on the outside is I'm using a rub called Traeger's Saskatchewan. I think it's blackened Saskatchewan rub. That's one of my favorites.

Yeah, it's my favorite for elk. And so that's not like burnt on the outside. That's the actual rub itself. So I take it and I bring the internal temperature up to 120 degrees and then I sear the outside on a cast iron pan. and 20 degrees and then I sear the outside on a cast iron pan. I usually do maybe a minute and a half on a really hot cast iron pan with a beef tallow. I use grass fed beef tallow and then, um, I pull it, I let it rest, I slice it and then my family, we ate a lot of it and then the rest of it I put in like a Tupperware and then I'll eat it throughout the week. Like, cause in the morning that's hard for me to get everything in all the stuff that I do and work out.

And then I, I'm pretty religious about my sauna and cold plunge. So I'm, I'm doing, I have to allocate 40 minutes to that. And so between my workouts and everything and I'm getting up at seven in the morning and then I'm out here doing the podcast, I got to get everything in.

So I want a meal that I can just pull out of the fridge, and in 10 minutes I'm done. Sit down, eat it, take my vitamins, go. So that's my move. I take that. I mean, elk is absolutely bananas. I also like it with, I use, do you ever use any of Mark Sisson's stuff, his Primal Kitchen stuff?

I know my kids love his mayo. Yes. The avocado mayo, I think it is. That's exactly what I was going to talk about. He's got this chipotle avocado mayo, and it's all avocado oil, and it's like a chipotle pepper seasoning to it and I just take some of that and I put a like a fucking pile of it on the plate and I dip the elk in that so I'm getting my fats that way because you're not really getting much fat yeah it's no fat there's no fat in it that's the only thing that's missing

from wild game is the fat content so you got to get your fat content from somewhere else and I'm changing my diet a lot lately. And I've basically decided that my love for pasta and my love for bread and sugar, it's not worth it. Like when, when I go long stretches of time without eating that stuff and then I eat it, the impact is so tangible. It's so obvious, but it's so casual when you eat it all the time. When you eat it all the time, you're always eating bread. You're always eating pasta. It's like, you're used to feeling like shit. But if you go like three or four weeks with just eating, like I'll eat like, uh, potatoes, tubers, I'll eat meat. I'll eat salads. I like, you know,

eat. I'll eat salads. I like, you know, salads with, I almost always just have olive oil and some sort of a vinaigrette, some sort of vinegar. And when I eat like that, I feel so much better. So I've decided like, I'm not going to eat any other way anymore. Like I will give myself like one cheat meal a week, but the rest of the week I'm not eating like that like last night somebody brought a cheeseburgers from Golden Tiger to the show at the Vulcan and I was like I'm not eating that I'm not eating it did you do similar set to the one a couple weeks ago that I saw yes yes that is insane thank you I you know to this day my wife and I still make some of those I don't do it I don't let any the jokes out but you know the this day my wife and i still make some of those i don't want to do it i don't let any of the jokes out but you know the one i'm talking about yeah yeah yeah yeah once once a day we make that joke it's because this is a set that's essentially well

there's some new stuff in it because there's a lot of covet stuff but there's new it's basically like the really strong pits are two and a half years old because usually they would have been on a special by now but because of covet because covid fucked everybody's tour schedule up and everything just got really polished and tight dude i don't know if you could hear me but i was i was literally embarrassing myself how much i was cackling in the back there that's a great room to the vulcan gas company on sixth street it's a great room hey Hey, speaking of, did you end up getting that comedy club? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't say anything though. I haven't announced where it is or what it is, but yeah, I got that. The one in Santa Barbara. No, no, it's on the

moon. Yeah, no, I did. I'm excited. I'll show you. I'm taking Ron White on a tour of it this afternoon if you want to come. I'd love to see it, man. Okay. That's awesome. You have the best backyard range I've ever seen ever. Dude, it just got better, too. How did it get better? I just bought more. Peter has this range in his backyard because Peter's an archery nut like me,

and he basically has a professional archery range in your backyard. It's like you have hundreds of yards to shoot. Well, we just bought the lot next to us. So now it's like we could literally set up a tack. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's cool.

And so what I've done now is I got now elk in the woods. That's what makes it better. So now when I was preparing for the elk hunt this year, I was doing, most of my shooting was in between trees. Oh. Trying to build my confidence confidence at if you want to shoot something 50 yards away but you got two trees like this and a branch going like this right now you've got a you have to judge like well can i make that shot because of the arc of the arrow

do you have a full draw four i do you do those are the shit the loophole has for people that don't know what we're talking about loophole has a range finder that you put in the weight of your arrow, the weight of the bow, the length of your peep sight, everything. You have to put in everything. Is it a peep sight? Is that calculated in? I think it's peep height elevation. Yeah? Yep.

Okay. So you calculate all those things and it will literally show you how high your arrow will be at the peak. So if you range something, which is what you do, and you dial it in on your site, it'll show you if you're going to hit a branch or not. Yeah, it's pretty sweet. It is. And they really took care of me because I had the, I don't know which one.

I had one that came out a few years earlier and it was okay. And then it just stopped working one day. It literally wouldn't it would only range something that was perfectly dark but anything that had like even a bit of brown in it wouldn't range and i sent it back to them and i was like hey can you guys fix it and they're like they just sent me a full draw four no charge wow which was like i mean that's a really expensive range finder it's kind of wild that someone figured out that you could shoot a laser at something and then it'll report back to you how far that laser is touching something.

Well, I mean, that's amazing. But the fact that they can just do angle compensation is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. For people who don't know what we're talking about, because we went into the full archery nerd mode, angle compensation means if you are shooting 50 yards, right? If the object is 50 yards, but it's 50 yards uphill, you will really be shooting more for like,

you're probably 57 yards. You have to, because you're fighting against gravity. And if you're shooting downhill 50 yards, you're really probably shooting 20 yards because you have no problem with gravity. It's non-existent. So you have to use an angle compensating range finder that tells you based on how you're turning the range finder, which direction it's going, whether or not you need to add or subtract yards. And it does it all internally it calculates everything and the first shot i ever

took in my life at an animal went a foot over his back because i had been doing all my practicing with a compensated range finder and we were this was out in uh molokai and it was an axis deer and i didn't my guide is behind me and he ranges it but he is using an old-school rangefinder that doesn't have angle Compensation what yeah, how's he doing that because he's old school. That's dumb So this animal was you know, probably 20 yards 20 degrees down, right? So I Just took the distance and assumed it was compensated for and shot and it was like like, I was like, that was a perfect shot. Why did it go a foot over that animal? Yeah.

And I was like, let me see that. Let me see that range finder. Yeah. And then I realized, I said, Wayne, you don't have angle compensation on here. He's like, no. I was like, Hey, from now on, can you hold my range finder? Yeah. The, the amount of technology that's involved in bow hunting and just hunting in general now. I mean, people have watches that have GPS on them and, you know, you could put waypoints and you could track on your phone exactly where the hit was. And then, you know, from there on, you could mark where each drop of blood you find is. So I learned something last year that blew my mind my wife as a gift got me a framed picture of Matthew McPherson's patent for the compound bow and I was like oh this is so beautiful

so it hangs up in my you know my archery room but here's the thing that blew my mind what year do you think that patent was I kind of gave it away because I told you it was Matthew McPherson so you know it I don't know who he is, so you didn't give it away. Compound bow. I've seen some old shitty ones, and they look like they're from the 60s. So I'm going to say 55. Yeah, that's what I guess. It's 87.

Whoa, really? Yeah. The patent for the compound bow is 1987. Wow. That's amazing when you think of how far that, yeah, there it is. The patent for the compound bow is 1987. Wow. That's amazing when you think of how far that, yeah, there it is. That's it? There it is. So you got that at your house?

Yep. What kind of a fucking wizard figured out a cam for a bow like that and figured out all those strings? Dude, I think it's the same guy who makes Matthew's bows. Really? Yeah. Isn't that who Matthew McPherson is? It must be Matthew's. So that's the original bow. Yeah. They still make one of the best bows in the world right now. You ever

shot one of them? I have never shot one, but it looks amazing. Just such a, such a perfect hunting bow, such a short axis. So compact. Yeah. The new ones are incredible. Um, Shane Dorian shoots with one. He loves it. He was telling me how incredible it is. There's so many bows now that are just top of the food chain. It's like I just got the new PSE. That's the carbon fiber one I was telling you about. It's incredible. It doesn't even – it feels so light.

It feels fake. It's weird. When I go back and shoot my RX3, which is only three years old it feels horrible compared to my ntn isn't that crazy the cam is so miserable to me um so yeah it's we only needed a lot of people with this podcast i bring on a doctor he wants to talk about bocams all right we're done with that we can talk about anything i don't give a fuck fuck. It doesn't, doesn't bother me. Is there any new information in the world of longevity and the world of health or anything that you know of that is exciting? I mean, two extremes, right? I think on the one end-

Tell everybody what kind of medicine you practice, just so they know. Oh, so I mean, my practice is basically trying to figure out how to help people live with a greater lifespan. So how do you add 10, 15 years to how long a person's going to live? And then how do you improve healthspan? So how do you improve- And your degree is in what kind of medicine? improve. And your degree is in what kind of medicine? Um, so I did surgical oncology. I did general surgery and oncology. Um, but I left medicine in 2006 and went, you know, did finance and other stuff and completely went away from it until I kind of came back to it about 10 years ago. Why did you leave it? Um, I mean, truthfully I was super frustrated. Um, in, in cancer surgery, you're doing kind of like very like heroic operations. I mean, the most technically challenging types of operations, but you know, half the people still die, right? So 50% of people who are going to

have surgery. And in some cases more, if you're talking about pancreatic cancer, 80% of the people whose pancreas gets removed for cancer are going to be dead in five years. Wow. So, you know, I just felt like in all regards, I just felt like there wasn't enough in the way of prevention. And in some ways that is necessary. I mean, because I trained at Hopkins, which is in the inner city, it's a lot of trauma surgery. So every third night for five years, you're taking care of gunshot wounds. And we had so many, I mean, Baltimore averaged at Hopkins, we averaged at the time, I don't know what it's like today at the time it was 16 penetrating traumas a day.

So 16 gunshot wounds or stab wounds a day. So as a, as a trainee, that's amazing, right? Like that's, that's what you're there for. That's why I went specifically to that program was to be able to learn to operate on people who are shot or stabbed. Um, but you know, it, it does take its toll on you, right? You just feel like there's no end to this. Like, I mean, it's a war zone out there and yeah, I mean there were, I remember there were times when, you know, you'd, you'd be a part of like a heroic rescue of somebody and they go out the door and they come back a week later with a gunshot wound to the head and they're dead. And you're like, ah, I mean, come on. Um, so yeah, I was, I was just frustrated by, with everything in medicine when I left. I was super pissed. My

wife was like, you know, you bitch and moan about this so much. I think you have two choices. You should either fix it or leave. And I was like, well, I can't fix it. So I'm leaving. Um, so I left and joined a company called McKinsey and was recruited there to do healthcare, but ended up because my background's in math doing credit risk. And this was right as this was like the two years building up to the mortgage meltdown. So that became my day job and my night job. I mean, that was all consuming for two years. Um, what was your night job? No, meaning like we worked 24, seven. Like I, we, I would run a team of analysts in India during the night and then a team in San Francisco during the day and all day, all night. We were kind of trying to basically figure out how bad this thing was going to be. So you saw it coming?

Oh, yeah. How far out? So by August of 2007, it was clear that the prime market was going to implode. And I still remember the day, Thursday, November 15th, 2007 is when I had a sense of what the magnitude was going to be. The thing I didn't know was when. I knew it was going to be the next 18 months, but it wasn't like I could say in September, which is when it ended up happening, right? It was 10 months later. I couldn't say in September, the bottom's going to fall out. Was there anything that could have been done that would have mitigated the impact on the economy and society and repossessions? with such clarity how bad this was is we had a client. Our client was the largest,

I guess I could say, probably the largest US home lender in prime real estate. And we had all the data. So we're able to see stuff that's not publicly available, but they didn't see it. But when we went back and looked at the analysis, we figured out that starting in 2004, starting in the second quarter of 2004, every loan that was being originated was behaving differently than the entire history of mortgages. So this is a really interesting analysis. It's called a vintage analysis. If you bundle mortgages together and look at how they behave, for all of time, they behave in a certain way. For about the first 18 months, none of them default. So 18 months after a person buys a house, historically,

there's no chance of default. Then defaults start to rise. And they rise for about the next two to three years. And then they never default again. So the vintage curve looks like this. This is cumulative loss rate. So what's the reason for that? So the reason nobody defaults in the first 18 months is because historically, you really make sure that the person who you're selling a house to or giving a loan to can afford it. You do a really extensive background check on them. And if something's going to go wrong, it's unlikely to go wrong in that first 18 months because of how much you've documented their income and employment and stuff like that. Then you get into an area where some people are going to default. And then the reason three, four years out, there's no more defaulting is because

by that point, people have enough equity in their home that if they run into trouble, they can always sell the home and the bank gets their money back. So again, you go back in time, every vintage curve for every single mortgage looked like this. Really boring. We went back and plotted all the vintage curves going back to the year 2000 and they all looked do, do, do, do, do, do. And then in Q2 2004, so you plot these in three month vintages, they started doing this. Explain to people that are just listening. Meaning they started to, instead of going up and then flat again, they just kept going up and up and up and up and up. But they actually did it at an exponential rate.

So they didn't just go up straight. They would go up exponentially. In other words, there was no end in sight to the explosion of losses. So the losses started happening immediately and they never slowed down. They accelerated with time. So this is looking at a chain reaction. And this was one of five models that we built to try to understand what was going on. And they all pointed in the same direction, which was catastrophic outcomes, basically for loans that became originated after 2004. So by the time we're in 2007, when we show all this data to them,

obviously they didn't believe it, right? They said, well, because the punchline was horrible. The punchline was you're going to lose more in the next 18 months than you've made in the last 10 years. And that was like, you know, they were like, that's not possible. And I had to be the one to tell the head of the bank, right? Because, and even though I was only like, there's a hierarchy at McKinsey, there's like senior partners, junior partners. And I was just like a lowly manager who ran the analysts. And the senior partner would normally be the one to present such an outrageous finding to the board of a bank. But he was like, you should present this. And I said, why? And he goes, well, you understand the technical details of the model better. And also you used to be a cancer surgeon. So you're used to giving bad news.

I think this is not going to go very well. So you do this and it did not go well. It was not well received. Um, in red, they could have done something. Yes, they absolutely could have done something. It wouldn't have stopped all the damage, but it would have minimized the damage because remember there was still another 10 months of horrible loans being originated, horrible loans being securitized, and they were mispriced. I mean, ultimately, that's the problem with this is it was just a mispricing game. They didn't know how to price the risk of the loans they were making. And how many people were predicting this the way you were?

Well, look, a lot of people way smarter than me were predicting it. Remember, I was an idiot. All I knew was how bad this was. I had no clue how one could make money off this because I wasn't thinking about it through that lens. Oh, I see. Remember, some folks were. Yeah. If you saw the big short, did you ever see that movie? No, I did not. Oh, so, um, I think it's called the big short, right? It was, uh, is that it, Jamie? Yeah. Great movie. Cause it was actually very accurate it jamie yeah great movie because it was actually very accurate who's in that movie um christian bale plays the guy the main that's right kind of found the stuff yep yep um a lot of people are in steve crowl brad pitt was in it if i recall yeah um it was a really good movie it was actually super accurate in terms of describing what was going on but the

and i remember when it came out, I was able to finally explain to my wife why we weren't billionaires. Cause she was always like, dude, you knew this was happening. And yet like, I, why do I hear about guys like John Paulson and all these hedge fund guys that made $3 billion on this? And I said, ah, this movie will explain why if you know this is happening. And the only instrument you have in your mind to make money on it is shorting equities, you can't make money. Right. In other words – and by the way, ethically, I couldn't have done this because I had inside data of a bank. I couldn't have done anything with that information.

But let's just assume that I could have shorted all the other companies. You couldn't have done anything legally or ethically according to your own feeling and standards? Certainly not ethically. I don't know about legally, but I could never have shorted this company that I knew inside and out, but I could have shorted others. But even still, I wouldn't have made a lot of money because one, shorting equities is really expensive when you don't know when the shoe is going to fall because you have to make a margin call over and over and over again. It's not leveraged, right? What these brilliant guys did was they figured

out that they could short an option on what was going to happen. They could basically short an insurance contract and that was super cheap. You're leveraged a thousand to one at this point, meaning you only have to put a dollar at risk to get a thousand dollars back on something you know is going to happen. And you have, you don't have to really concern yourself with exactly when it's going to happen, at least not in the same cost inefficient way that you have to with equities. So that's what, that's what Michael Burry is the guy's name, by the way, that Christian Bale played. That's what the Michael Burrys of the world did. And there were a handful of these guys that were like, we're going to make up these contracts. So they went to banks and said,

I want you to sell me a contract that says this thing is going to happen. And the banks were like, wait, you want me to sell you a contract that's saying mortgage defaults are going to go up? We'll do that all day because that's never happened before. Happily. Happily, I'll sell you that contract. And they price them horribly, meaning in favor of the traders. Right. Yeah.

Wow. It's such a complicated world, and I don't know how else you would sell houses to people unless they had enough money to just pay cash for a house, which nobody does. Like how else would you sell a house to people? No, I mean, look, it's sort of funny. When the whole thing blew up, people said, well, this is because interest rates have been too low for too long. So Alan Greenspan became the very convenient bad guy for all of this. And it's true. Interest rates were a little bit too low for too long. But we know today that that's categorically not the thing that drove it.

Low interest rates are simply the oxygen that's necessary for a fire. But we're sitting in a room right now with lots of oxygen. There's no fire going on. Clearly, oxygen is not the root cause of the problem. The root cause of the problem was the absolutely inept lending standards. What fostered it was the ability to securitize loans. So once you could make a horrible loan and you didn't have to live with it on your books, you could actually sell it to someone else who didn't understand what you were selling, then it just became out of control. It was a scary time because it was also a scary time where we were really worried that banks were going to fail.

You know, and there was a lot of people that were saying, let them fail. The bank should fail because we shouldn't prop up these banks. And meanwhile, these people that are these CEOs, they're going to give themselves bonuses, which is so insane. Like, even though they lost all this money and they had to be bailed out by the government, these people still got bonuses. And I was like, explain to me why they get bonuses. Like, well, these people are very talented and they don't give them bonuses. They're going to go somewhere where they do get bonuses. I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Like you guys are a bunch of crooks. Like how did you rig this thing where you fail miserably and yet you still get a bonus?

I thought you only get a bonus if you're successful. And you got a bonus from taxpayer money? But then someone explained to me that the banks paid those loans back quite quickly. Is that true? It is. The TARP program made money for the government. So the government extracted a pound of flesh on those loans. money for the government. So the government extracted a pound of flesh on those loans.

So the people that said that we should have just let the banks fail, that's not correct. In my opinion, that is not correct. The collateral damage of that would have been devastating. But your other point is also notable. So let's not confound two things. So if you let the banks fail, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. You have a recession that rivals that of 1929. That's a bad scenario. The way that the TARP program was engineered was to prevent that from happening, but also it wasn't a gift. It was, you're going to pay these loans back, which they did. But there still, in my opinion, could have been and should have been more clauses in that program that permitted some of the really flagrant abuses that came down the line. Like, you know, the AIG guys getting bonuses that they probably shouldn't have got. made the argument, which was, well, if we don't pay these people, they're not going to stick around and we need them to clean up this mess. And my view is I bet they would, I bet enough good people would have stuck around without having to pay so many people so much. And by the way,

the people that really needed the bonuses were not the CEOs. Like they're not the ones doing the work, right? Right. Yeah. And so you do this and how do you change? Oh yeah. So, so yeah. So basically actually everything for me changed when my daughter was born. So, my daughter was born 13 years ago and I'm 35. And I mean, I'm sure you can relate to this, but at least for me, that was the moment when I first cared about living longer. It was the first moment I had a thought beyond myself and thought like, oh my God. I remember when my wife was pregnant, I was like not that excited about it. I was and thought like, oh my God, like, I remember when my wife was pregnant, I was like, not that excited about it. I was kind of like, we had a cat at the time and I loved this cat. And I remember saying to my wife, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I'm going to love our daughter

as much as I love Midnight, our little cat. My wife was like, are you crazy? And of course, the second Olivia was born, I was like obsessed with her. And then I was like, I got to figure this out because you know, every male in my family has died of heart disease except one. I have horrible genes for heart disease. What causes heart disease genetically? Like what is it? Well, the most common genetic driver of heart disease is something called LP little a. So one in about 10 people, somewhere between one and eight and one in 12, so call it one in 10 people, 10% of people have a gene called LPA that makes too much of this lipoprotein called LP little a, which you've heard of LDL, right? So LDL is this atherogenic lipoprotein. LP little a is an LDL

that has another protein wrapped on it called APOpoA, and it makes it much worse. So the single most common hereditary driver of cardiovascular disease is elevated LP little A. And the tragic thing is most doctors don't even know what it is. So this is one of the things I have more podcasts on this topic than any other, because it's inexcusable to me that a patient doesn't know that they have elevated LP little a. This is a screening test we should do on children. So that's number one. After that, it gets much more complicated. Heart disease is wildly polygenic. So LPA is one rare example that's not polygenic, meaning there is just one gene that

drives LPA. But when you start to get into something like familial hypercholesterolemia, which is also kind of common, that's any set of genes. And there are over 3,000 mutations that produce elevated LDL through one form or another. That becomes another huge driver of genetic inheritance. But what's scary, at least for someone like me, is it's really clear when you look at my family history, heart disease is a problem. I don't have anything recognizable, meaning I don't have LP little a, I don't have familial hypercholesterolemia. I don't have any of the few known genes that are really driving this.

My cholesterol levels were never really that heavy to begin with. My LDL, which is kind of an irrelevant, stupid metric anyway, but even if you looked at my ApoB, which is the metric you're supposed to be looking at, was never through the roof. But when I was 35, I went and had a calcium scan. So it's a CT scan, looks at your heart. And I had a score of six. Now six is not a high number on a calcium scan, but when you're 35, that places you at the 90th percentile. So that was like the, I got to figure this shit out. I'm going to devote the rest of my life to understanding how to not die of heart disease. And then ultimately, so my first focus became an obsession with cardiovascular disease, which lasted about four years. And then I realized like, well, there's no benefit in not

dying of cardiovascular disease if you're going to still die of cancer or dementia or something like that. So then my obsession and interest just expanded through all of that. What did you do to keep yourself from being at the risk of dying from cardiovascular disease? Well, I mean, it came down to reverse engineering what is driving cardiovascular disease, which is the most ubiquitous killer, right? So there's no developed nation for which cardiovascular disease isn't the number one killer. Really? Yeah.

So hands down. Only developed nations. Yeah. Once you get out of developed nations, infections and other things sort of start to overcome that. Do they suffer from cardiovascular diseases when you're dealing with tribal communities? Yeah, definitely not to the same extent. What's the factor? Well, I mean, I think there's a couple things, right?

One could be they're not living as long, so we're not seeing it as much. And we don't really have great autopsy data on people who are dying in their 40s and 50s from infections and other things like that. But, you know, it could be, you know, that obviously they just don't have the same toxins in their food system that we do, right? They're probably not eating half the refined crap that we eat. Yeah, that's what I was going to get to. Like, how much of an impact do you think that stuff does have? I think it has a significant impact, for sure. Yeah. So, atherosclerosis is really driven by lipoproteins first and foremost. So, this APO, anything that carries this APOB protein on it, so that's an LDL, an LP little a, a VLDL, that's the synquanon. That is the necessary

but not sufficient element to drive atherosclerosis. Anything that impairs endothelial function, so high blood pressure, high glucose, high insulin, high homocysteine, all that stuff, problematic. Anything that amplifies inflammation, all the things. So basically, I just said, okay, well, we're just going to take a no holds barred approach to addressing all of those things. And that's why I sit here today and I can say, look, between now and when I'm 60, the one thing I know I'm not going to die of is atherosclerosis. I would say that in the next 10 years, my greatest risk of death is motor vehicle accident and cancer. Those would be the two hardest things to mitigate. Now, why is it so difficult to mitigate cancer?

Well, for one, of the big diseases, it's the one for which I think we have the least idea of what the risk factors are. So the big three in terms of death is atherosclerosis, cancer, and neurodegeneration. With cancer, it's also very polygenic. And- What's that mean? Lots of genes are involved. So if I did a genetic test, if I had your entire genome in front of me, it wouldn't tell me much about your risk for cancer. So the genes that are driving it are also not germline. They're somatic, meaning they're inherited mutations. So one of the few things we know about cancer is the earlier you can detect it, the better.

That's a truism that is becoming almost impossible to argue. So you're always better off finding a cancer when you have 100 million cells that are cancerous versus 10 billion cells that are cancerous. And our tools for screening are somewhat limited. Now, they're getting better. So to your question earlier, what's one of the things I'm excited about? I think liquid biopsies are something in the last year that we have become very excited about. So all of our patients get these things called liquid biopsies, which is a blood test that measures something called cell-free DNA. So we're looking for tumor DNA in the bloodstream. So meaning at very low levels of tumor burden, you can still pick it up by getting some of this cell-free DNA floating around your bloodstream.

So it's literally like you take a tube of blood and you can say, oh, there's actually like some pancreatic cancer here or some colon cancer here or breast cancer here. And then you go looking for that cancer. Wow. Because there are false positives, of course, when you do these things. So you can't think of screening as just one thing you do. It's got to be layered, kind of like a Swiss cheese approach. You want to have as many pieces of Swiss cheese lined up as possible so that one and only one pencil fits through the hole. And you know you get a signal with your cancer detection. So this one test just from a tube of blood, how new is this? I don't even know if it's technically approved yet. I know that we're doing it.

Certain physicians are being allowed to do it in the context of having a very comprehensive approach to follow up with patients. So because we, you know, our tests, our patients are doing it in the context of a billion other things. So there's not as much of a concern from the part of the FDA, but I don't think this is fully FDA approved yet. But it's very recent. We've been doing it only six months. Wow. I mean, I had my, I did mine in April.

I was probably one of the first people to do it. Did you get nervous? I mean, no. I mean, I was kind of like, look, I, I, it's so much more important to me to know I have cancer than to put my head in the sand and not know. Right. Yeah. Right.

Of course. But every time I go and get this diffusion-weighted image MRI, which is this very particular type of MRI that's uniquely tuned to detect cancer and getting a blood test like this or getting a colonoscopy, which I'm very aggressive with, all of these things, yeah, there's always a moment of just, right. Let me come out clean. Yeah. God. So you are, you have these concerns about longevity. You have these concerns about cardiovascular health and cancer. And so what prompts you to start your practice and re re, you know, reemerge into medicine? There was nothing else I could think about. At the time, I had left that one company where I was doing all the finance stuff and I went to join an energy company. So now I was working on a renewable form of oil.

Renewable form of oil? Yeah, so this was a company that was using, we were using algae and genetically programming the algae to spit out a fungible form of oil. Wow. So meaning it would produce a distillate, a cut of distillate that could be refined into gasoline and jet fuel. Whoa. From algae. Yeah. How effective is that?

Well, ultimately it could not be done at cost. So, I mean, I left after four years. That company went on for another four years, but it just couldn't be done at the price of where oil was, which at the time was like 50 bucks a barrel. I wanted to talk to you about, this is a little bit of a deviation, but it's not really. I wanted to talk to you about, this is a little bit of a deviation, but it's not really. I wanted to talk to you about Theranos because I am fucking completely obsessed with that lady and her scam company. Dude, did you know that I was almost the chief medical

officer of that company? No. Yeah, dude. So in 2006, my McKinsey office, which was in Palo Alto, was on the same, was on page mill, which was one street over from where Theranos was located. So Theranos at the time was a super small company. So a good friend of mine, his father-in-law was on the board and knew Elizabeth Holmes very well. He was her professor at Stanford. And the company was small at that time. It's like maybe 30 people there, something like that. And he said, look, I want you, my friend, to potentially look at this company because they could really use a CFO. And he was in private equity at the time, really smart guy. And to make it long story short, I got introduced to Elizabeth. So I went down and

had lunch with her one day. Did you ever catch her talking in her real voice? You know, it's so, I don't remember. I met her later and she already had the fake voice, but I can't remember that day what her voice was like. I wish I could remember, but you know, it's like 15 years ago, right? I would remember if it was weird.

I don't think it was. I think it must have been a woman. If she talked like this, I would say, what is going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you had throat cancer? I don't think so was. I think it must have been a woman. If she talked like this, I would say, what is going on? Have you had throat cancer? I don't think so. What are you doing? I think she must have been talking in a normal voice. But here's what interested me. I sat down

in the office and she pulled out a black box that was, I don't know if it was called Edison at the time or if it was the precursor to what would become Edison. Diagnostics is not something I knew a ton about, but I'd spent two years at the NIH and I certainly understand how chemical reagents work and I understand how chemical assays work. And I know how, for example, an ELISA works. And ELISA is a type of, um, assay that you do to measure something, but it requires a lot of washing and rinsing and repeating. And I know that many biomarkers that are of interest, for example, something like insulin, you know, if you want to measure a person's insulin level, you have to do these types of assays, right? So I was saying to her, you know, Elizabeth, I don't understand how you could put a drop of blood in here and get anything out that's more interesting than glucose, hemoglobin, sodium, and potassium, the really simple things that can work, you know,

that can be measured off a drop of blood. And she kind of gave me some answer. And I said, well, can I see the inside of the box? And she said, absolutely not. And I said, well, I've signed an NDA, you know, I had to sign an NDA to get in the building. So she was like, no. So I just decided I wasn't interested in the company because I couldn't get sort of straight answers from her. So I ended up not doing it. So fast forward to 20, this was 2006. Fast forward to 2015, she's now on the cover of Forbes. And you're like, well, no, no. I remember one day saying to my wife, because she was on the cover of Forbes and the company was valued a little over $9 billion. And I said to my wife, do you know how much we would be worth if I had taken that job now? And she's like, how much? And I told her,

and she's like, good God. And so I'm at the Vanity Fair event in San Francisco. I didn't know it at the time. This was a week before the Wall Street Journal article would fall, John Cario's article that was the one that kind of unraveled all of Theranos in October of 2015. How did he figure it out? How did this one guy figure out that it was all – So I haven't read his book, Bad Blood, but I saw the documentary. So that's like a poor man's version of it. But basically just interviewing people who were formerly employees of the company. Oh, so they were bean spillers.

Yeah. And they were basically like, yeah, this is a total scam. Oh, my God. And so sure enough, I'm at this reception because she and she's the speaker of the event. So she's like it's a four day conference and she's the she's the one everyone there is there to see. She's the one everyone is there to see. So I'm sitting at a table and I'm having a cocktail and she walks up and I said, hey, Elizabeth, you probably don't remember me. She goes, no, I remember you exactly. And she remembered my name and even remembered how I had been introduced to her.

I was like really blown away. We exchanged pleasantries. She gave me her card. And then a week later it all unraveled. And it's really funny. I still have the card. You should frame it Yeah, yeah She must have known. Oh shit was hitting. No, no, she totally did. Yeah, because the shit was hitting the fan six months earlier

What does one do and it's not like you can liquidate right like you if you're worth nine billion dollars But it's all stock and you know, the product is nonsense, you can't even get out. Well, it's a private company. So at best, you know, she could have along the way been doing secondaries off her take. Oh, so it wasn't even. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus Christ, that was wild.

It's just when you when you I'm obsessed with this podcast. It's out now called The Dropout and they update weekly with the trial results. Oh, I need to check that out. It's great. Yeah, yeah. So tell me this. How is it looking? Is the prosecution looking like they're going to win this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they have falsified documents. They pretended that they got a document from Pfizer. They put Pfizer's name on a document, and it was an internal document and it was basically substantiating the machine,

the Edison machine and all the possibilities that it could. She also lied about military use. I remember that. Department of Defense contracts. Yeah. They have her on the stand lying or have her on the stand admitting that she lied because there was- Wait, has she taken the stand admitting that she lied because there was a recording. Has she taken the stand yet? I believe so. I mean, she's,

she's, there's definitely moments in the podcast where she's being interviewed or she's being forced to ask, answer questions. Oh, but this might've been the civil deposition. Could have been. Yeah,

maybe. Cause I don't know, but this is in the middle of the current trial. So I'm not sure because it's like, it's a really well produced podcast and it has narration and music and all this stuff. The dropout. Yes, it's very good.

And it also predates, see they picked up when the trial came back. So the beginning episodes of the dropout all detail the scam and all detail all the stuff that was going on, the people that were working, they were slowly figuring out, like what the fuck are we doing here? And then it went away for a while and then came back during the trial. So now it's detailing all the things that the prosecution is finding.

Also, it must be. No, it's not the civil trial. It is the current trial because they were specifically discussing these documents that they had put Pfizer's label on. So they made it look like this document was coming from Pfizer. Like saying, oh, this stuff is amazing. But really it was just internal from Theranos. It's wild. One of the things that I love about it is I'm always fascinated by con artists and cult leaders and people who manage

to pull the wool over people's eyes. But when people do it in a clumsy way and still get really far, like she was clumsy. She wasn't just a little clumsy. She was like, she was a, it was, I, you know how I got obsessed with this? This is really weird. She was giving a speech and this was before I had any idea that there was anything wrong with the company. Oh, so this is pre 15. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Before she got caught, she was giving some speech at some women's, women's group, some like, you know, exceptional women were all getting together and she gave this speech.

And the speech was so bad that I was fascinated. I was like, that's a moron. This is not a smart person. This is a dumb, clunky speech. Because I'm a professional orator. I mean, that's what I do. I talk. And so when I see someone that's talking and she's basically, these women are amazing, all you amazing women, I'm

just so pro amazing women. Is that the speech? Let me hear this dumb speech. Dana asked, I am so incredibly humbled and so honored to be with this incredible group of women. I want to just take a minute to say, especially to the young women in the room here, do everything you can to be the best in science and math and engineering. It's our actions that will determine this new stereotype around women being the best in science and technology and

engineering and it's that that our little girls will see when they start to think about who do they want to be when they grow up okay i saw that i'm like that's a moron that's a moron you want women to be the best at science and engineering and math like what the fuck are you talking about be the best at science and engineering and math. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? You want one gender to be the best at science and engineering and math? And you want women, just do your best to be the best? I was like, oh my God, that's an idiot.

And so I got obsessed with her. So when that was going on, that's when I got obsessed. And then when the fucking scam got released in the Wall, was it Washington Post Street Journal I was like aha I fucking called it. I knew something was off I remember watching that and going what is what how how like I would hear Steve Jobs talk I could never understand But it wasn't enough. I just didn't care enough but in retrospect It was so obvious There was not a single person who understood the laboratory space on her board.

So remember, her board was the who's who. You had General Mattis. You had Henry Kissinger. You had Dick Kovacevic. I mean, she had the most all-star corporate board in the history of boards. Not one of these guys knew the difference between a pipette and a microscope. Ooh. Like that's a red flag.

Yeah, that's smart though. That's the smart con. Right. The other thing that got me was the affectation. Like the detail of the wardrobe and like the outfit that she was she was like She was a little jobs. Yeah, she was clearly look but when you heard Steve Jobs talk Steve Jobs had a vision. Here's my vision. This is what I think can happen and he would talk and you go Well, that's a brilliant

Completely obsessed man like this is this this person is very brilliant and it makes sense this is the head of this incredibly innovative company when i heard to her talk i was like who's this idiot that you have talking like this is not a person that spent a lot of time thinking right like they if you went to college for a long period of time and really worked on your, you know, your grammar and your understanding of the correct use of language to inspire and challenge people's ideas, that's not the fucking speech you'd give, right? That was pretty bad.

It was terrible. But it wasn't just terrible, it was clunky. And there was something about it for me that like it made me think, like, what's going on here? Like, that doesn't make any sense. And I thought, well, maybe she's just awkward when she speaks publicly. You know, you have those initial impressions, and you go, well, maybe I'm just fucking reading into it wrong. Because I've been wrong before, but not that time.

So I just, when, I'm fascinated that she wouldn't let you look into the box. Cause I guess if you looked into the box, you would immediately be able to be, I don't know that I would have let's, I don't want to overstate my credentials. I'm not a clinical chemist. I I'm, she could have duped me,

I'm sure, but she didn't. I mean, and again, we're under NDA. We're talking about me joining her company as a chief medical officer. Like, right.

How are you not going to let me see inside this fr medical officer. Like, how are you not gonna let me see inside this freaking box? Like, what do you want? How am I gonna do my job? How could she have duped you though, if she's not technically astute? She doesn't really understand it. I don't know if she could.

I mean, look, she presumably duped people smarter than me, right? I think she duped, this is what drives me crazy. I think she duped people from the image. I they wanted to believe they wanted to believe that here was this female Wunderkind who left Stanford at 19 years old dropped out of school and figured out this amazing technology And along the way became at least until she got busted the richest self-made woman ever She was worth I think like her own personal billion yeah crazy crazy and she just faked it and one of the ways she got busted was people from college that she went to school

with were like why are you talking like that like what's happening and then people started hearing that that wasn't her real voice and then people started like rumors and murmurs there's so many layers to that story oh man no doubt yes it's a fascinating one it really is it's such an interesting story so for you when all that was going down that must have been incredibly sweet because now you don't have to think man i missed out on all that money yeah for sure and i and i was also I felt a little bit validated like okay it There was a reason she didn't want to show me the inside of the box right? Yeah, yeah It's a giant like little thing yeah, she got so many people she got Betsy DeVos for like a hundred million She poor general Mattis the guy didn't have two nickels

Yeah, rub together when he gets out of the military he put like a couple hundred K in or something obscene for him. Yeah fuck Crazy whenever someone comes to me like some guy came to me with some crazy I mean, I don't know if it's real so I don't want to talk about it like say it specifically But if it's true it sounds like this guy's going to revolutionize a form of travel. And so he's telling me about this. I was like, wow. And then I said to my business manager, who was with me at the time, I go, don't ever forget about Theranos.

Whenever someone tells you something, the moment someone tells me, I go, yeah, yeah. When it happens, I'll believe you. tells me, I go, yeah, yeah. When it happens, I believe you. I don't want to be involved in any groundbreaking shit before it actually launched, especially in some area where I'm completely ignorant. And what am I going to do? Just start going to school, try to figure out engineering, think of this guy saying something that's actually possible and plausible? No, can't do it. Not interested, buddy. So for you, though, when it did come out, though, there had to be like a cool feeling of satisfaction. There had to be a little something there.

I mean, the first person I called was my buddy, the guy who had introduced me to her way back. And I was like, dude, what are the dinner conversations like? And he's like, oh, dude, it's not good. Because his father-in-law was still in the believing camp oh no oh yeah they talk about him in the yeah oh fuck so it was so he got duped long after the the jig was up right yeah i i again i don't know the details but i it was it was i was like man fuck it's good that we didn't do that. It's one of the great scams of our time because you have to wonder how they ever thought they were going to get away with it. There really was no technology.

There really was nothing that was capable of doing what they were saying it was going to be able to be done. Yeah, there's an interesting psychology there, right? Yeah. Which is on any given day, it's not a crisis, right? Like you can always fake it for one more day, right? So what's the end? Like what's the end game? How do they not have cancer? Like if stress gives you cancer, imagine the stress of like duping people at a 9 billion and you're sitting around knowing that your voice is fake and you're wearing

a black turtleneck and people that you went to college with like hey that bitch doesn't even talk like that i heard i hear the text messages between her and sunny were pretty funny because i read an article that said if you really want to incentivize people to not commit crime just let them know that all of their cheesy text messages are going to be made public. Oh, wow. Apparently there's just some super embarrassing, idiotic text messages. He drove a Lamborghini to the office too, which is also hilarious. It's just so crazy. But it just shows you that there is this incredible market for people to try to optimize their health and try to figure out what's wrong with them. And if you can make it more simple than it actually is, which is really, it's like-

Except I don't even think, that's the other thing about it. It wasn't that freaking interesting. Right. Like who cares if there's a little box that I can put a drop of blood on that tells me what my CBC and Chem 7 and pick your other panel looks like. That's not that interesting. Okay. Yes, it's a little more convenient than going to LabCorp and giving a your other panelists. That's not that interesting. Okay, yes, it's a little more convenient than going to LabCorp and giving a tube of blood. What's interesting is what you do with that knowledge. What do you do with that information?

Well, I think what was interesting for what she was providing was Safeway was gonna buy into it. Was it Walgreens? Yeah, Walgreens. And so Walgreens, I believe, backed out. I think they realized somewhere along the line that she was full of shit. And there was some text messages and emails that they read out from the CEO because he had retired before it ever came to fruition.

And then they backed out of it. But Safeway wanted to put them all in the stores. And so you could be able to go shopping for food, get your blood taken, a little tiny pinprick and find out if anything's wrong with you right there and then. But again, it still comes down to having somebody that can actually tell you what's wrong. And by the way, the stuff that was relevant, they couldn't, it's not like they're going to measure LP little a, it's not like you're going to tell you your APOE4 status. It's not like they're going to tell you like of the 10 most relevant things that I would look at in somebody's blood, they weren't measuring any of them.

Is APOE4 the stuff that makes you more susceptible to CTE? It probably makes you more susceptible to CTE. It definitely makes you more susceptible to Alzheimer's disease. But today we know it's more nuanced. We know that there are other genes that can be protective and can completely abrogate the effect of APOE4, which is the, that's the gene that's the more risky one. ApoE4, which is the, that's the, that's the gene that's the more risky one. When you hear about, I don't know what the gene is, but there is a gene that predisposes someone to breast cancer. BRCA.

Is that what it is? Yeah. And when Angelina Jolie actually had her breasts removed as a preemptive measure, does that make sense to you? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Wow.

So it's that possible? It's depending on, there's two variants of the gene, but it can have up to a 80 or 90% lifetime incidence of breast cancer. Wow. And what's even more frightening is the ovarian cancer. Because, you know, a woman suffers far more from a prophylactic oophorectomy than a mastectomy. And from endocrine perspective I mean socially obviously there's challenges of a mastectomy but from an endocrine perspective when you if you took a 35 year old woman and just took her ovaries out you're putting her in menopause Wow so the consequences are huge as far as the way she feels oh that gene, um, that predisposes a woman to breast cancer, would you say it was

again? BRCA. How common is that? Oh, that's a good question. Um, it's not that common. It is the, it is not remotely, uh, common as far as the leading, you know, I mean, breast cancer is obviously a pretty common breast cancer. It is a pretty common cancer to women.

Um, you know, I would guess that 5% maybe would be BRCA associated, if not less. And is her action of doing that, is that a common move now? I, I'm certainly seeing more women who are BRCA positive undergoing prophylactic mastectomy. And when they go undergo this prophylactic mastectomy they they actually can retain the initial appearance of breasts now like so they do it knowing that they're gonna do that and then they replace it with a breast yep they put in this right that's uh fuck that's one thing that dudes don't have to think about breast cancer yeah I. I mean, I guess the equivalent for

males is prostate cancer in terms of like a gender specific cancer. Um, and, and so if you look like lung cancer is the number one killer for both men and women, um, in terms of death rate, but breast cancer and heart attacks. Oh no, no, I'm sorry. Within cancer. Heart attack is still number one, but you know, breast and prostate are very high up on the list of killing along with colon cancer. Those are sort of your big three. Prostate cancer is a bit complicated because every man will die with prostate cancer. Some will die from it. Whoa. Every man will die with some? Yeah. If you live long enough, absolutely. By the time you're 50, like you and I, there's a greater than 50% chance one of us has prostate cancer right now.

Holy shit. So if you and I were killed in a car accident tomorrow and they took our prostates out and sectioned them up, the likelihood that they would find prostate cancer cells in one of us is at least 50%. And those cells may or may not be a problem. Statistically speaking, they're not going not be a problem. Statistically speaking, they're not going to be a problem. Because remember this, with the exception of the brain, you don't die from cancer unless it spreads. So the brain is the one exception to that rule. If you have brain cancer, it can kill you just staying in your brain. But if you have lung cancer, or let's use prostate cancer or breast cancer, a woman never dies because breast cancer invades her breast.

She dies because it spreads to her brain, her bones, her lungs, her liver. Same with prostate cancer. Prostate cancer almost always spreads to the bone, and that's the only time you die. So if prostate cancer stays in the prostate, there's no death. If someone has a very small amount of prostate cancer, is there a thing that they can do to mitigate its spread? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So you can remove the prostate surgically. This is a technique that was pioneered by a guy named Pat Walsh at Johns Hopkins in the 1980s. And it wasn't that taking

out the prostate was hard. It was taking it out while preserving sexual function was really hard because the neurovascular bundle of Walsh, which is now bears his name, which is what controls erectile function, wraps around the thing you're trying to cut out. Oh, geez. So it's like how do you cut this gland out without taking out all of the nervous tissue that you need to maintain an erection? of the nervous tissue that you need to maintain an erection. And so basically prior to Walsh, you were almost guaranteed to never be able to get an erection after you had your prostate taken out. So you were staring down the barrel of not too very attractive choices. Hmm. How many guys went out in their shield? I'm keeping my heart on. I'll die young. Yeah. So the goal is to basically identify a guy with prostate cancer who has the variant that's going to spread.

So today, this has been, I mean, there's been so much progress in this field. So we use a blood test called a 4K score. So you know what a PSA is. You've probably had your PSA checked a bunch of times. So PSA by itself is not a great blood test. You have to use more information than just the PSA. You have to know the PSA velocity and the PSA density. So the velocity is what's the rate of change of the PSA. And the density is dividing the PSA by the prostate volume. So if you get an MRI or an ultrasound, you can tell the volume of

the prostate in grams or the volume, and then you can turn it into grams. So you normalize PSA to volume or mass, and you have a density. And those two things become more suggestive. So once the PSA starts to look a little bit suspicious, and once it gets over about four, we do this 4K blood test, which is another form of liquid biopsy. And that gives you a much more interesting number. It basically tells you what's the probability that this person is going to have metastatic prostate cancer, not just prostate cancer. And if that 4K number is above a certain threshold, I think 7.5%, the probability that they're going to have metastatic prostate cancer approaches 85%, 90%. What are your thoughts on ketogenic diets in relation to cancer? Like there's been a lot of articles written about the idea that cancer needs glucose to survive,

and then if you can keep your body functioning off of ketones, it's less likely that you get cancer. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it's less likely that you get cancer. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I was on a ketogenic diet for three years. Yeah, I know you were. And so I was super steeped in all of this stuff. What made you get off of it?

It became just really diff, I mean, I was so strict, I didn't take a day off. I took one day off in three years. But the stuff I had to give up, like even, like one of my favorite things is stir fry. Like I love huge curry stir fry that I make. And even something that's that it's just vegetables, but it was still too much to keep in. It was too much carbohydrate to stay in ketosis.

So I just kind of missed. And also at that point I was switching more from ultra distance swimming and stuff into shorter distance swimming. Like I was doing more pool racing and more just shorter distance stuff. Also on the bike, I was going less from kind of ultra distance bike stuff to like a 20 kilometer race or a 40 kilometer race. So as you move towards that new energy system, you just need more carbohydrates. But anyway, to your question, I think there's an awesome theoretical argument

for it, but it's also important to understand that even when you're on a ketogenic diet, your glucose isn't zero. So it's all about probabilistic reduction, right? It's keeping insulin lower. That probably has a greater effect than keeping glucose lower. Because if you're on a ketogenic diet and you're not on a ketogenic diet, we're talking about a difference of one millimolar in glucose. So it's probably more the presence of the ketone, the reduction of the insulin, if anything, that's having a role. What I think is most interesting is not just a ketogenic diet. It's when you combine it with a drug called a PI3 kinase inhibitor, is not just a ketogenic diet. It's when you combine it with a drug called a PI3 kinase inhibitor, which is a drug that blocks a very important pathway for cancer to grow, but has one escape valve, which is it raises insulin. So that's a bad thing if you're trying to minimize cancer.

So when you combine a ketogenic diet with a PI3 kinase inhibitor, at least in animal studies, which is about the extent of where this has been studied so far, the results look really good. Because PI3 kinase inhibitors by themselves have not panned out, even though theoretically they should. They should be amazing for cancer. They haven't been great. And it's been speculated that that's because of that escape valve, which is it pops off

to a higher insulin level. So when you layer on top of that a ketogenic diet, it seems to work really well. And anecdotally, one of my good friends from med school, his wife has metastatic breast cancer. She was diagnosed, God, probably seven or eight years ago. So metastatic breast cancer is a death sentence. It's unsurvivable. She was enrolled in a clinical trial in Boston that was using PI3K inhibitors. And so she got one of these drugs. She's the only woman to this day that's still alive. Whoa. And she went on a ketogenic diet. Now, again.

How many years ago? Seven or eight. And what is the usual lifespan of someone who gets diagnosed? I mean, five years, maybe. Less, probably. And is she deteriorating? Is she maintaining? No, she literally has this one little foci of metastatic disease in her hip still. So this one little nubbin of potential cancer inside her hip bone, but it's stayed static. I mean, it's causing some

structural issues. Obviously, her hip's weaker, but it's kind of amazing. And her story is actually kind of one of the things that's got some of the people who develop these drugs thinking about this idea of combining ketogenic diets with PI3K inhibitors to try to squash the insulin level and minimize basically that escape route for cancer. Wow. And there's other ways to do this pharmacologically, right? Like you could argue combining it with metformin or something else that's going to lower insulin would also potentially work.

And metformin is that anti-aging drug that's fairly controversial as well too, right? Yeah, I don't know if it's that controversial. I mean it's – It is in terms of human performance. Well, yeah. So the reason I stopped taking it three years ago – I took it for probably eight years. But three years ago I stopped because it does impair mitochondrial function at least at the level that I can measure it. So I measure my

lactate levels when I'm exercising in a certain type of exercise every day. And I'm basically trying to generate the highest amount of power I can generate on a bike while keeping lactate below two millimole. And that's like the limit of my mitochondrial throughput as my kind of my maximum aerobic efficiency. And when I was on metformin, I just noticed like I was hitting that lactate level higher than I believed I should hit it just based on my fitness. Is lactate, is that lactic acid? Is it the same thing? Synonymous, yeah. So you would develop more with metformin. That's right.

So it would make your performance less effective. But what if you took the metformin after exercise? It stuck around too long. So I had tried all that stuff. I would take the metformin immediately. Exactly. You said I'd take it immediately after exercise, but it would still be in my system. 24 hours later.

Yeah. So I then said, well, what if I stopped metformin altogether? What if you intermittently took metformin and intermittently exercised? All great questions. Is there a half-life in terms of? Yeah. Eventually it'll wash out. But I think exercise is the single most important longevity drug we have, bar none.

Like if you said, like, I want to go deep down the rabbit hole of living longer, what do I need to do? It's like a super well-crafted exercise program that is geared towards strength, muscle mass, and cardiorespiratory fitness. So it's all of the above. It's not just one. Right. I mean, the hazard ratios for each of these are pretty interesting. This has become, like, each year I try to bring one new focus into our practice. Each year, I try to bring one new focus into our practice.

And the past 12 months, the focus has been entirely around taking exercise to a new level in terms of our understanding of how to fine-tune it. And the data are unbelievable, right? So everybody knows that if you smoke or have diabetes, your risk of death goes up a lot. But your risk of death from having high cardiorespiratory fitness goes down by much more than your risk of death goes up from smoking or diabetes. So smoking and diabetes will double or triple your risk of death, depending on the timeframe you're looking at. Having very high cardiorespiratory fitness, so having a VO2 max that is elite, we would define that as the top 2.5% of the population compared to below average, is a five-fold reduction in

all-cause mortality, death from any kind. Whoa. I mean, we don't have drugs that have a 5x reduction in mortality. That's incredible. And that's just elite cardiovascular health. Right. And then when you layer in strength and muscle mass, we actually now have pretty good data as to the fact that strength is more important than muscle mass. We just use muscle mass as a good proxy for strength.

But if you just focus on strength, that's the metric that matters. It's about a threefold reduction in all-cause mortality when you compare high strength to low strength. And the tests are, you know, we're talking, it's not like how much you can squat and deadlift. It's like grip strength, dead hang. How long can you do like an air squat? You know, like what's your quad strength? How quickly can you do five reps up and down from a chair? I mean, it's relatively simple stuff.

But when you stratify people by those metrics and you compare the highest to the lowest performers, there's just no comparison. Is there a point of diminishing returns, though, where you just get really, really strong but it's not helping you any more than being fairly strong? On the strength data, we don't see it because the data have only been parsed out as high to low. On the cardiorespiratory, there is a point of diminishing return. So remember I said elite is the top 2.5%. We break them into five categories, but they're not equal in bucket size. You get most of the benefit, honestly, by going from not fit at all to average fit. That gives you honestly, by going from not fit at all to average fit. That gives you three of the five X. Now that said, you know, I hold myself and my patients to a way higher standard, which is we have a chart that shows all the data by age, by gender and by VO2 max. And I would say, you know, if you're a

52 year old male, I'm asking you to have the VO2 max of an elite 42 year old male. So I want you to be a decade younger elite. And then we do the same thing with strength metrics. And when you prescribe that, say if you take a 52 year old male that doesn't have a history of cardiovascular activity, maybe they lightly work out at the gym or something like that. What particular exercises do you think are the best to achieve that result? So we'd start with a base of zone two. So this zone two is that lactate thing I was talking about. So your zone two is defined as the highest level of aerobic output that you can generate while keeping lactate below two millimole.

So I think a bike is the easiest way to do this because the- Stationary or? Stationary just because you can keep it steady state. You know, when you're on the road, you're all over the place. So if you're on like a stationary bike and also wattage is such an easy metric for people to understand. So how many watts are you putting out, right? So the first thing we would do is say you probably need to be doing at least three hours

a week of that zone two, which is building an aerobic base. So four 45 minute sessions at zone two, constantly driving it up. And honestly, one session of VO2 max training per week. And the best protocol for that is the four by four protocol. So that's four minutes at the highest output you can sustain. So here you could do it on an air bike or something, right? So you could do what's the highest wattage you can hold for four minutes and then four minute recovery and do five of those sets once a week. So when you're doing that, do you think that the best is like an airdyne that works the arms and

the legs? Or do you think just a regular bike that just works the legs? Like what is... For zone two, I mean, it really just matters that you're consistent. But I think most people find you can do a higher output when you're on an air bike in terms of absolute wattage because you are leveraging upper and lower body. It really doesn't matter that much. I mean, you can do this on a treadmill. You can do this on a stair climber.

You can do this on... Any kind of cardiovascular You can do this on any kind of cardiovascular activity. But you need 45 minutes four times a week. That seems to be the minimum effective dose on zone two. Now, if someone's super deconditioned, it can probably be three 30-minute sessions to start, and they'll see benefit. Interesting. And then as far as a strength program, do you recommend specific exercises? Is it like squat, deadlift? Well, it depends on, this is where it gets very dependent on the person. So we have a test that we put our patients through that's 10 exercises. And they're all basically normalized to your body weight and gender. So like a dead hang. So how long can you hang from a bar dead? So for males- How long should you be able to hold?

Well, we hold males to the standard of two minutes and- That's a long time. Yeah. And females to a minute and a half at the age of 40. So then it gets discounted by decade. You know, it's interesting when we were hosting Fear Factor, dead hang was one of the stunts. These people hung from a chin upup bar that was uh over a bridge into a river remember how long people could go no but the women won interesting yeah the men we had a big jack guy he was fucking pretty stout um and he uh he fell into the water quicker i think it's weight body weight you know the Oh, it's harder the more you weigh, of course,

but the idea is in theory you should be stronger if you're a man as well. Yeah, but if you're a 250-pound man and you're carrying all that extra weight because you've been doing bodybuilding-type exercises. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And especially if you use straps and you don't have that grip. Two minutes is a long fucking time though. The very first time I did it, I did it after deadlifting, so my grip was a little taxed, and I only got to 126.

And then about a week later, I tried again, and I got to two minutes. My longest is a little over three minutes now. I do it twice a week. How much do you weigh? Like 171. And as you get heavier it must get you like your hand strength must really need to be a giant factor if like you're dealing with a guy who's should be 171 like if you decided to bodybuild yeah and you went to 250 that would probably

radically decrease your amount yeah although to your point, I would hope that I was using my grip strength to make that happen. I mean, grip strength is probably one of the most correlated indices with longevity. Yeah, I've heard that, but I don't know why. Why is that? There's probably two reasons. One is, I used to think it was the obvious reason,

which is look at the causes of mortality. We have this thing in our practice called the death bars. So one of my analysts, Bob Kaplan, about a year ago, I said, Bob, I want you to make these five graphs for me. And they're basically everything about the causes of death. So one of them is just show me all cause mortality by decade. Now break it down into the subsets. And one of the most common things is accidental deaths. And this is the most interesting trend is accidental deaths change so much by age. So in our age group, so by the way, accidental deaths are uniform across the population. But they become a much bigger source of death on a per capita basis as you get older because there are fewer older people. In our demographic, most accidental deaths are overdoses. When you're older, they become virtually all falls. 90% of accidental deaths are falls. So a fall is a very lethal thing by the time you're 75. Like you and I don't think about it. By the time you're 75, falling is a devastating consequence. Isn't that wild? So think about how strong grip versus

weak grip would impact your ability to tolerate a fall. It's, can you get your hand down? Can you grab something when you're falling? All of those things matter a lot. The second reason I think grip strength matters a lot is it is such a good proxy for strength because one of the things I've learned in the past year becoming so obsessive with grip strength is how as my hands have gotten stronger it's alleviated all the shoulder like I have a torn labrum here from my swimming days that is so painful I thought I would never be able to do a dead hang pull-up again because whenever I was in this full position I'm putting so much stress on the labrum so I would just I was doing pull-ups to here, right? Like I would, you know, I'd go from here to here. And then, um, Beth Lewis,

this person in our practice who is kind of like our strength guru, she was convinced that if I could just get my grip stronger, I would fix this. And I was like, Beth, that doesn't even make freaking sense. Like why does having more grip fix my shoulder? But I just started doing everything she said, like all of these dead hang finger exercises and all this other stuff. And now when I do a pull-up, I can dead hang with zero pain and I'm just putting all this extra pressure in my finger. And I think the reason is it is allowing us to potentiate force more stably from our scapula all the way through. And so much of the instability we have in shoulders and all these injuries is just because we don't transmit force correctly. So I think something about having really strong grip just basically fixes so much of the upper body strength, you know, weakness, you know, strength imbalances that we have.

And again, it's a proxy for people who don't fall. It's a proxy for other things. It is a proxy for muscle mass. The more muscle mass you have, the more glucose you dispose of, the more metabolically healthy you are. So that's my best guess for it. And what exercise do you do besides dead hang? And so the other things we have people do is, so another important principle of aging, so think about hunting, right? So where are you more likely to hurt yourself, walking down a steep hill or walking up a steep hill? Down. Absolutely. Breaks is everything in life.

Eccentric strength matters more than concentric strength. Concentric strength is important, but we overemphasize it, right? We don't train eccentric strength enough. So a big part of this program is how do you train eccentric strength? So one of our metrics is you have to be able to step down from a 16 foot block and take more than three seconds. So you're at your 16 inches, right? I don't know if I said 16 feet, you're 16 inches on a block and you're going to put one step down, but you have to do it in more than three seconds. So think about how much control you need in the supporting quad to put yourself down that slowly. That's the, that's, that's how you walk downstairs and don't hurt yourself. That's how you have the ability to,

um, you know, stop yourself if you lose balance. Um, We have eccentric modes as well. So you have to be able to hold 50% of your body weight and do a certain number of box step-ups. You have to be able to farmer's carry with 75% of your body weight. So we have a whole bunch of other things that have to do with ankle mobility. It's a lot of non-sexy stuff that is our top 10. And of course, deadlifting and things like that are super important because that's a big part of how you train those things. But we also don't fixate on it. Like my wife has scoliosis and if she deadlifts, like it just puts a little too much stress on her back. So she does hip thrusters instead. And you can get most of the hip hinge benefit using a hip thruster without having to deadlift. So you shouldn't be-

What about kettlebell swings? Amazing exercise, right? Is that good enough as a hip thruster without having to deadlift. So you shouldn't be kettlebell swings. Amazing exercise, right? Good enough as a hip swing, a hip hinge. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're good, I mean, the problem with a kettlebell swing is it requires a ton of technique and coordination. And I think most people don't do it incorrectly. Most people do it incorrectly. Um, but if you're doing it right, it's an amazing exercise. Yeah. So what is your routine? Like what's, uh, what are the things that you concentrate on? I know I watch your Instagram. You're, you've been doing deadlifting and I love deadlifting. I think it's, but I don't deadlift heavy these days. Like

I, I've been deadlifting relatively light, but I do it with like a, I felt I do a very heavy focus on eccentrics. I do a no touch deadlift where I'm taking only, I'm only letting 50% of the weight down in between reps. So kind of more staying under constant tension as I lift ton of single leg stuff. Um, you can use a fraction of the weight and I do, I started about six months ago doing a lot of blood flow restriction stuff as well. So you're really going light. The blood flow restriction stuff is very interesting. Have you done it? No, I haven't, but I've, I've heard great things about it. But I wanted to ask you this before I forget.

You had written something once about, I meant to talk to you about this, about deadlifts actually decompressing the spine, which I found so counterintuitive. So how does that work? How are you getting deadlifts to decompress you? And this is easiest in a hex bar deadlift. It's much easier with a hex bar deadlift than a sumo deadlift or a traditional straightener. Yeah, so the reason is, if you have enough intra-abdominal pressure

and you're putting your spine at just the right amount of extension, you're actually extending your spine when you lift because of the position of your hip. So it's, it's hard to explain without feeling it. And it took me a really long time to feel this, but have you heard of dynamic neuromuscular stabilization? No. DNS. So it's this, it's this discipline that really taught me how to do this kind of intra-abdominal pressure where you put a huge amount of pressure in your pelvis basically. So you're – like you ever notice how the really good power lifters have huge abdomens? Yeah. And this is a big part of it is they can generate so much pressure in their abdomen that they're basically stretching out their spine, pushing

out everywhere. So they have kind of a cylinder inside their body, right? And if you can't do that, you almost have like a triangle in your body with the diaphragm being the top and the pelvis being the bottom. So the force is not going out in all directions in the same way. So what you want is this force to be going out equally. And when I do that with a hex bar deadlift, I can hear my spine actually going like an adjustment, just the same as when I'm dead hanging, you can sort of hear a crack, yeah. So what is the steps?

How do you start it? You start on the ground. It's the easiest to do when you're on your back and you have somebody who knows how to cue it initially. So you know the two hip bones here? Yes. This is called your anterior superior iliac crest. So I go about two finger breaths in, two finger breaths down. And as I'm laying on my back, I'm trying to put as much air into there as possible.

I'm trying to put as much air into there as possible. And you want to imagine that your shorts, which have, you know, the ring that your, the waistband of your shorts make, you want to make it as big as possible in all directions. So you're trying to get air out into your back. You're trying to get air into your pelvis. So the first step is just being able to do that. And then eventually you want to be able to do that while breathing, meaning you want to be able to get that pressure out and then take a breath. Because at first you won't be able to do that while breathing meaning you want to be able to get that pressure out and then take a breath because at first you won't be able to do that at first you'll just blow out right and you'll be holding your breath so the next thing you'll be able to

hold that while you breathe and then we do some other exercises before we would go to deadlifting so now you want to be able to get into certain positions where you're on your front and you're in opposite support so the obvious one is like a bear position where you're on your front and you're in opposite support. So the obvious one is like a bear position where you're on all fours, but then ultimately we get into these really complicated positions where you're on one elbow and the side of one knee, but you're keeping your pelvis totally level. Yes, exactly. So for example, yeah, basically what DNS comes down to is modeling the neurodevelopment of an infant. So basically if we're not messed around with when we're kids, we will develop perfectly normally for the first two years of our life. These are the exercises I use to fix my back, Joe.

Really? Without even knowing. That's what it was called. Yeah. The doctor, it took her a couple weeks to figure it out. But that first thing with like getting, I'm trying to find like this position here where her back is up and her legs are like that. That's basically what fixed it. And just trying to get that breathing in after a couple weeks, all the pain kind of just kind of went away.

So you see the one that's four to five months there where she's in an eight, so where her left leg is out. So that's, to me, that is the gangster position that gets you ready to deadlift. When you can do what she's doing and now pick your hips up off the floor and stay perfectly level with only your left leg down and your right elbow down, and you'll feel your spine will just go. You feel this total expansion. That tells you you have the intra-abdominal control to deadlift. So left leg down, right elbow down. Yep, right elbow down. Yep.

That's it right there. Opposite, opposite, yep. She's not doing it fully right now, but that's the precursor. Yeah, that's the precursor to that position. And so that's how you start to learn. So then there's expanding in those those images right there you see how they're using is that the diaphragm that they're using yep to push out yep and so that is what expands your back do you do any

decompression in terms of like you ever use one of those teeter-dex tables do you know I'm talking about I do yeah not the ones that hang by your ankles but the one you we hinge no the only thing that I do decompression for is my neck. So I have a device at home. Every day I do 10 minutes of neck traction. Oh, you do one of those? Yep. Do you do one with the inflated one that you pump up, or do you do the hang one?

Neither. So it's called a Sanders machine. You lay in it, and it grabs your mandible and your occiput and it pulls you up and you adjust the poundage so i do 25 pounds for 10 minutes what do you what what's the machine that you use what's it called it's called a sanders if you i bought it on there it is yeah oh interesting because i have one where i hang that looks looks safer. This is much safer. Because you would start somebody out like at a much lower poundage. Jamie, will you send me this link?

Thanks. But you don't have any cervical disc issues, do you? I have. I've had them. Yeah, I had bulging discs. So I would do this under the guidance of a physical therapist just to make sure that they tell you how. I mean, are you literally hanging by your neck right now? No, not fully.

But like do you know how much weight are you? I just have one of these things that it hooks onto a door, the top of the door, and I pull the thing like this, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Oh, okay, okay. And then I can choose to, like, lean into it and put more weight, like, let it make my neck decompress more, and then I can pull it up more until it gets to like this.

I got it. I'm hanging there, but it feels good. Where is the pressure being applied? More in the front or more in the back? Kind of like a bolt. Okay. It's a strap, and you tighten it down with Velcro, and it's like, ah.

So the other thing that DNS, that I do every day for DNS, is so there are muscles that run on the front of your vertebral bodies and your cervical spine, and they're called deep neck stabilizing muscles. And one of the challenges that most of us have, who all have, you know, sort of cervical neck issues, is those muscles aren't strong enough. They're not fully engaged enough. So another exercise I do when on my back in that position with the intra-abdominal pressure is kind of look down at my chest and without lifting my head up, go through the initiation of a lift up. And to do that, you basically will end up using these deep neck stabilizers as opposed to the scalenes, right? You don't want to be moving your neck or stabilizing your neck with these muscles that

are outside. You want to be doing it with the muscles inside. And that's what's extending the spine. You can't feel these muscles. They're everything you're feeling right now is sort of superficial. Do you use anything to strengthen your neck, like an iron neck or anything like that? No, I just, I do the, I did when I was boxing, of course. You ever use an iron neck? I don't know. I would do like the, you you know I used to do the thing that you wrap around your head and right But the issue with that is it puts an unnatural Amount of leverage on the disc itself the iron neck is a halo that you know what it is. No, I'll give you one We were a stack of them

They said they sent me a bunch to give away but it is you have a halo and you pump it up and like a like a reebok pump like it fits tight to your head and then there's a 50 pound bungee cord and so you pull back so that you're under tension and then you can adjust the amount of tension see that guy's using it there there's a video of the there's a video of me with uh there's a video of me doing it too because the the guy who yeah this would be kind of cool for driving um Um, cause that's a thing in a race car, right? Your neck is under a lot of G force. Well, the idea behind it is there's the guy who invented it. Um, is it Mike Jolly's name? Um, he's a, who's a former NFL player, big fucking stout fella. And he developed this to aid in people.

There's Tom Papa too. To keep people from, there's a lot of folks that get head injuries. And a lot of it is from the weakness of the neck. And that makes your head snap. I'd love to try it. But with jujitsu, it's gigantic. Because there's no real safe way to train your neck. But with that, my mind- We used to do neck bridges, rolling, all this idiotic stuff.

Yeah, we used to do that too. But this iron neck thing is way better because you don't really do that, but you do do this. So the halo's on, the bungee cord's on, and I go like this. Twist here, twist here, twist here, twist here. And then I turn around, I do it backwards, and then I do it sideways. So I have it going to my right side, I have it going to my left side, and then I do what they call the Stevie Wonder. So I do this thing like this. And the whole idea is that you're not putting that unnatural hinge on your discs.

And all of this muscle tissue has gotten so much stronger because of it. My neck is bigger. I mean, I haven't measured it, but, I mean, shirts that I used to wear, I can't fit anymore. But it's just stronger. It's more stable. Yeah, I'd love to try it. You can have it.

I have one for you. There you go. J-R-E swag. So I'm going to have to try that with the hex bar. I mean, it seems like I'm going to have it. I have one for you. There you go. JRE swag. So I'm going to have to try that with the hex bar. I mean, it seems like I'm going to have to. I mean, start with the positions on the ground. It's easier to show you if I was actually putting you on a mat and having you do it. Well, we'll do that someday. And so you do that, you do those. So I do my four days a week. I do four sessions a week of the 45-minute zone two. So that's the – I'm titrating my wattage to keep lactate at two millimole.

I do one session a week of a higher-end anaerobic exercise. I typically do it on a stair machine, you know, those rotating stair machines where I just do like – I'll do a one-minute sprint, two-minute easy climb, one-minute sprint, two-minute two minute easy climb, or four on four off on a bike. And then four sessions of strength a week, four strength sessions a week. And that's it. Like, I mean, this is the least I've ever exercised in my life. I exercise a total of 10 or 11 hours a week, which is still, you know, a lot by most people's standards. By most people's standards, it is a lot.

But by my standards, that's like nothing. Well, people need to understand that you're a fucking maniac. That's like nothing well people need to understand that you're a fucking maniac and you Swam all the different you swam in between all the islands of Hawaii no no no no just just Maui and lanai You believe you but you were trying to do what was there was something going on where they wouldn't let you do it at night Right yes, that was that swim Those are the tiger shark what because you because at night It's so dark you have to pin a glow stick to your bathing suit. And they were like, the boat captain, like, I'm going to start at midnight to avoid the wind.

And he's like, dude, you'll be like chum out there with a little glow stick on your butt. Really? They would come for you? Yeah, yeah. They would love that. Tiger sharks are dangerous, huh? So for you, 11 hours a week is not a lot. For most people, that's a big commitment because it's more than an hour.

Yeah. And we'll say to our patients, like, look, what can you do? Can you do six hours a week? But at some point, you got to do it. You can't say, I want to live long. I want to be a kick-ass 85-year-old and not train for it. It's so logically inconsistent. Right.

and not train for it. It just, it's so logically inconsistent. And I want to be able to hunt when I'm 80 and I want to drive a race car when I'm 80. Like, and if I want to do that, I have to put in a lot of time right now to make sure I'm strong enough to do those things. Yeah. There's no other options, you know, especially for bone density and maintaining muscle mass. There's no other way to do it. Yeah. The data is overwhelming, right? So there's a study that was done that looked at 60, I want to say 65-ish year old folks, and it put them on a super high strength training program. And in six months, they added one, I want to say 1.7 kilos of muscle mass. Wow.

That's pretty good. That's like three and a half pounds of muscle. For an old person, that's very good. Six months of super dedicated training. Yeah. And I forget exactly how much more protein they were feeding them. So high protein diet, high training. A separate study took people of basically the same age and put them on 10 days of bed rest. They lost 1.5 kilograms of muscle.

Wow. So- 1.5 kilograms of muscle in 10 days of bed rest and did they get it back quickly? No. Once they got off? No. That was it.

It takes a very long time to get it back. And you could lose it all in 10 days of bed rest. You could lose in 10 days what you got in six months. God damn it. So, I mean, it's like, you know, it's this sexy, it's this non-sexy, like, don't stop exercising. Don't ever get out of shape. Right. And avoid injury like the plague.

And as you get older, this loss of muscle mass, what we call sarcopenia, is an enormous killer. So, sarcopenia is like one of the primary indicators that someone's unhealthy. Yes. Sarco obesity, which is a term that I don't know who coined it is like the worst of all, right? So that's high amounts of fat, low amounts of muscle. And that's, I mean, that's going to happen to a person naturally, right? You're going to lose about a pound of muscle a decade, a little bit more than that, probably two pounds of muscle. No, no, I'm sorry. You're going to lose about, I want to say lose a pound of muscle, gain two pounds of fat every couple of years by the time you're 40 if you don't make it, if you're not super diligent about avoiding it. And do you have a body fat percentage that you like to maintain?

For me or just for our patients? For anybody. No. So I think superficial or subcutaneous body fat is so highly genetic that we don't really tend to fixate on it that much. So in other words, for an individual, we care about what their trend is, but like, you know, I'm not that lean anymore. I'm 14, 13% body fat, you know, for me to be below 10% body fat, I have to really, you know, change what I'm eating.

And you were at your leanest when you were a keto? Yeah, well, as an adult, I was probably leaner when I was boxing, but when I was like, as an adult, I was probably leaner when I was boxing, but when I was like, as a, as a, as an adult, my leanest was 7% when I was keto, uh, by Dexa. Um, and that was actually not that hard because, but I was exercising, you know, I was like exercising like a fiend and, you know, eating this stupidly strict ketogenic diet. Um, but what I care much more about is visceral fat and, and what's called ALMI, appendicular lean

mass index. And you can get both of these numbers off of DEXA. So visceral fat is how many pounds of fat do you have around your organs? And that's a far more important predictor of your lifespan. And what causes fat to accumulate around the organs versus subcutaneous? fat to accumulate around the organs versus subcutaneous? Well, the subcutaneous fat is sort of just a, it's your excess depot. I mean, you can store an infinite amount of weight there. The visceral fat probably has to do with hepatic fat. Our liver produces a lot of fat. And I mean, if we're unhealthy, right? So the liver will start to store fat. So- Drunks. People drink a lot.

Yeah, alcohol is a huge contributor to it. But, of course, now there's something called non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, NAFLD, which is probably the leading indicator for liver transplant in the United States now. Whoa. And that seems to be mostly driven by fructose. Fructose. Yeah. Goddamn corn syrup.

Yeah. People want to pretend that all fucking sugars are created equal. They're not, are they? No. God, no. Isn't that a weird thing, though? Why do people want to say that? It seems like whether they're contrarian or they want to have knowledge that counteracts

the narrative that people keep hearing. The narrative that we keep hearing. The narrative that we keep hearing from people like yourself or from a lot of experts is that particularly high fructose corn syrup is just really bad for you. I mean, I think Rick Johnson's data shows, Rick Johnson is, I think, the world's expert on fructose. What his data show is that there's nothing worse than drinking fructose. Like if you really- Orange juice. Yeah. I mean, if you want to drink your sugar, you're putting it on the fast track to the liver. Because your body does not normally encounter that. Your body normally encounters fruit with

fiber. There's the speed with which it basically hits the liver is too high. For the liver to process it correctly? Yeah, and also it gets into other parts of the intestine that it wouldn't get to with just if you were eating it, right? So if you took 100 grams of sugar and you ate it in a solid food versus if you drank it, there's actually pretty interesting animal data that the fructose that you drink is making it all the way into the colon and it's actually increasing the risk of colon cancer in a way that you wouldn't get it through solid consumption. So what about fructose from fruit? Is there any danger in that or is it just – On a per molecule basis, it is the same fructose. But the dose, I mean it's like –, you know, um, one of my favorite drinks

is a Paloma, like in far as like a summer cocktail. Right. So I noticed this summer when I started making them, like how many grapefruits do I need to scree to squeeze, to get a 500 ML thing of grapefruit juice. And it's about 10 grapefruits this big. It kind of occurred to me. I was like, it is so easy for me to drink this thing. Like I can drink 500 ml of grapefruit juice. So assume it's orange juice. I could drink 500 ml of orange juice in one chug. I don't have to think about it.

Right. Could you eat that many oranges? It'd be hard. You would really have to be motivated. Yeah. So that's why it's just better to eat fruit than drink fruit Just because of basically the lower dose the dose and the velocity Um, you know, I noticed when I was on the carnivore diet for a while. How long were you on it?

By the way, just a month. I did it one month. No, I did it twice This was like three years ago two years ago Yeah, about three years ago, and then I did it again a year later, again a month. One thing it does do is you lose weight because you just don't eat anything else other than meat, and your satiety levels are reached far quicker. Yeah. Like you feel satiated in terms of like you don't want to eat any more steak. But if somebody pushed a bowl of pasta in front of me and said you could eat that too,

I'd be like, oh, I'll fucking eat that whole thing. It's weird. And you did it super strict. You didn't have a single vegetable. No vegetables. I just ate steaks. I ate mostly ribeye steaks for a month. And I lost 12 pounds.

I got ripped. How did you feel? I felt good. I felt a little aggressive. That was what was odd. It was like I was a little extra aggro. Not aggro in a negative way. Like I was more like, ah, like I had more.

How were your workouts? Not that good. The workouts were not that good. Even the pure strength workouts? They were okay. Like your grappling would be horrible, right? Right. That's what I'm saying.

They were okay, but my ability to maintain for long periods of time was not so hot. Whereas I could do like a Pavel Tatsalin type workout where I'm doing low reps, large amounts of rest in between the reps. But like rounds in the bag were horrific. It was not good. It was like I got drunk the night before or something. Like I was hungover. I was like, oh, fucking push.

I was trying to push. But mental clarity was very high. Mental clarity was high. clarity was your sleep not bad Sleep is good different. Okay. No no different sleep was high Or the sleep is fine rather Mental clarity was high I had but I do feel like I had like a little bit more grr Like I'm a little bit more like I gotta go on fucking get shit done

Like I had good energy which is odd that it didn't translate into the workouts because it really didn't. Well, you were glycogen depleted. Like you were down to 40% glycogen in your muscles. I'm sure. So, but why did I have mental clarity? You probably had ketones floating around and you had no glucose fluctuation.

No glucose fluctuation, I think is it. Is that a negative way to eat? A carnivore? Yeah. I mean, look, I haven't done it. Um, it's just, it just strikes me as like unnatural, but I'm sure there are some people for whom it's a reasonable way to go about it. I just, it's hard for me to understand that. Is it unnatural? I mean, there's some thoughts. Look, the Maasai are largely carnivores, right? So there are clearly some civilizations who have done it, but we have to distinguish between

it can be done from it is optimal. Those are not the same thing. And we're clearly omnivores in your eyes. And so if one was going to- Just like a vegan diet at the other end of the spectrum. Can it be done? Sure. Is it better than the standard American diet?

Sure. Is it necessarily the optimal diet? No. Why is it necessarily the optimal diet? Just because some guy's telling us it is. Well, the idea is that I think the vegan diet is the only diet that comes with sort of a moral imperative. That's right. The vegan diet is the only diet that comes with sort of a moral imperative.

That's right. And I think these folks that do it, they're saying, listen, I care about A, climate change, B, the animals, all the above, whatever it is. So that's a different – like can you do it and survive and thrive? Yes, you can. When you're doing the carnivore diet, I think their idea is that they're trying to avoid plant chemicals that plants release when they're being consumed by predators, which does happen, right? Yeah, I guess I just – I have to feel like we have evolved enough tools to thrive despite plants. true that there's an effect that when you're taking in these plant compounds that are, you know, designed to ward off predation, that your body has a sort of hermetic effect and it's actually in somewhat, somewhat beneficial to have those. That's Rhonda Patrick's take on things like, um, uh, broccoli sprouts and things along those lines, right?

I don't have a point of view on it. I mean, clearly hormesis is an important part of our existence. But I don't know. My null hypothesis would be we evolved to eat plants. Right. I just – And vegetables, fruits, and meat as well. Yeah.

Yeah. But we're also super versatile. Like we can do a lot. I don't know any elite athletes that do just straight carnivore, but I do know a lot that do carnivore ish. So they do mostly meat and then they supplement it with fruits. And so they'll eat like apples and pineapples and things along those lines. And they get their glucose essentially from fruit. And they basically avoid all plant matter. I also take athletic greens.

I take that supplement. Dude, I'm freaking obsessed with it. It's great stuff, right? I feel good when I take it. I go off of that, you know? Yeah, that's interesting. Could you do carnivore with ag yeah i'd feel a lot better if i did that psychologically i'd feel because i don't i

just i don't think i'd feel right if i was not eating any vegetables i like them that's the problem like like if i have a nice salad with like tomatoes and onions and you know and and olive oil and vinegar. I look forward to that. I like it. I like to start off a meal with a good salad. It tastes good. I like it.

It's one of those things where I'm not sure that's bad for me. I think when I have a bowl of pasta, I like that too, but I'm like, oh, you fucking idiot. After I eat it, I'm like, oh, dummy, what have you done? I never feel like that after I have a salad. After a salad, I'm like, good. It was good. I liked it, you know? But that's my optimal meal. My optimal meal is a good salad and a piece of meat. That's what I like the most. And maybe, you know, some sort of a starch, like my favorite sweet potatoes. Sweet potatoes or yams, those are my favorite. Because I feel like with those,

I'm getting all the benefits. And I do know that you can take potatoes and boil them and then cool them off and then whatever it is that happens to the potato, you lose a lot of the negative effects. Yeah, there's this whole resistant starch argument. Again, for me, I take a much simpler empirical approach to this, which is I have in my mind a predefined set of metrics around how high I want my glucose to be, how much I want it to vary, and where I want it to average. And I titrate my intake to that. And you wear a constant glucose monitor, right?

Yeah, yeah. I saw it on your arm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my activity and my sleep basically determine what I eat. And is that monitor working with an app? Yeah. What's the app? What's it called? This monitor is called Dexcom, so it just works with the Dexcom app. Dexcom app.

Yeah, yeah. And there's another one called Libre, the Abbott version of this, but it's a bit more cumbersome. How much do you find it varies throughout the day, your glucose levels? Quite a bit. And it varies a ton with sleep and stress. So if you have a bad night of sleep, like I don't even wear this when I go hunting. Because you don't want to know your data? Well, first of all, I'm also, there's a part of me that's like perhaps naively worried that any sort of Bluetooth signal out there in the field is like

being picked up by a deer. What about your phone? I always have it on airplane mode. Oh, yeah. So, but also I just think a deer can pick up a Bluetooth. I have no idea, but it's like, if I'm going to wear a stupid hex suit, I'm going to, you know what I mean? Like you, you buy into that hex suit thing. Um, I don't think so, but it's like, it's one of those things where it's like the downside of it you know it clearly works with fish really yeah yeah it seems to really work with fish i've uh i've talked to people that understand have you bow hunted fish yet out here no i have not i've heard it's awesome though yeah i will. I think spearfishing is the move. I got to get that going.

That seems like the move. Like snorkeling and spearfishing. You should come to Maui with us in June. We're going to go out there. Justin Lee and Mark Healy. Do you know those guys? Yeah, I know Mark. You know Mark.

You hunted with Mark. Yeah, he's a great guy. So they're going to teach me and another buddy some serious diving and spearfishing in June. Yeah, that's like hunting underwater. Those guys are, I mean, that looks incredible. It looks so, and for someone who's been so comfortable in water, they keep telling me, they said, Justin told me that within a couple hours, he'll have me down to 75 feet. And I'm like, that can't be possible. There's no'll have me down to 75 feet and i'm like that can't be possible

there's no way i could go to 75 feet and he's like of course you can you can swim 25 yards of a pool holding your breath like there and back which i can right he's like how could you not do it and i was like well when you put it that way but still it seems how do you get down there though do you have to have a weight on or something? I think they do. Yeah, they use long fins and a slight weight. And you titrate the weight to a certain level of buoyancy, like a slight negative buoyancy, I think. And if you're panicking, you can release the weight? Yes, I believe you can.

And how much weight is it? That's funny. I asked Justin about this. Now, of course, it depends on how thick your wetsuit is if you're wearing a wetsuit and things like that. But it wasn't, I want to say it was like eight pounds or something. It wasn't like some staggering sum of weight. It's amazing. Like, you know, the guy who has the world record in the static hold, he might have to quit his career because he got myocarditis from being vaccinated.

Oh, really? Yeah, unfortunately. He's one of the rare few that gets it, and he lost like 30% of his ability to hold his breath. See if you can find that guy's story. Somebody just shared it with me. But some of these guys can hold their breath for seven what is yeah i was gonna say what's the static apnea record now it's probably approaching 10 oh no but i think it's if you preload with oxygen it's different right oh that's cheating

that should be cheating i want to know like what can a person just go and hold their breath and and you know the preloading with oxygen i think david blaine did something he went like 10 minutes or something crazy he's a fascinating guy he sure is he have you ever met him uh no spoken on the phone to him never met him my goodness dude when you watch him do magic you're just like what the fuck did i just say like how would you do that like he did some crazy shit with us with his sleeves rolled up. He wanted us to know that, like,

his sleeves are rolled up, he's making cards disappear. And Jamie and I were like, what the fuck did we just see? Like, where did that go? It's really weird. He is pretty amazing. Beyond.

And that whole world of magicians and people who, you know, understand, like, how to distract you in a way that you don't notice what they're doing while they're doing it but they have this insane hand dexterity so they're moving in a way that a normal person can't even imagine that your hands can move and they're shuffling these cards in front of you you don't even seeing what's happening did you see that movie with with Hugh Jackman and Christian Bale, The Prestige?

What's this here, buddy? This is his post about it. I was trying to go to the source. Okay. So this is from his Instagram. It says, I want to share my annoying experience after vaccination and perhaps have some testimonials from similar stories from free divers. Did you get better?

He said, after my second dose of the vaccine, I noticed my heart rate was way higher than normal and my breath hold capacity went down significantly. During sleep, I'm at 65 to 70 beats per minute instead of 37 to 45 beats per minute. During the day, I'm now over, wow, I'm now always over 100 beats per minute instead of 65, even when I sit down and relax. Once I even reached 177 beats per minute while having dinner with friends.

Three exclamation points, four exclamation points. Ten days after my second jab, I went to see a cardiologist, and he told me it's a common side effect of Pfizer vaccine. Nothing to worry about, just rest, it will pass. jab, I went to see a cardiologist and he told me it's a common side effect of Pfizer vaccine, nothing to worry about, just rest, it will pass. 40 days after the second jab, I had no progress. So I went to see another cardiologist and got diagnosed with myocarditis and trivial mitral regurgitation, which is basically an inflammation of the heart muscle caused by the immune system and some tiny leaks of blood from the valves that no longer close properly. I'm now struggling to reach eight minutes breath hold, which is hilarious. That sounds amazing. 150 meter DYN, I don't know what that means. And even have, what is 150 meter DYN? Do you know what that is?

I don't know if that's dying as in, I don't know what that means. And even have, what is 150 meter DYN? Do you know what that is? I don't know if that's dying as in, I don't know. And even have a strong urge to breathe doing 40 meter dives. 30% decrease in my diving performance roughly. My first thought and recommendation to free divers around the world is to choose a vaccine which is done the old fashioned way like Sputnik, Sinovac, Sinopharm, et cetera, instead of the new mRNA vaccines. It's weird because he spells vaccines wrong every time. Does he have not spell check?

Is he from another country? Yeah. Oh, so they spell things wrong. They spell like tire with a Y in England. What's that guy's name? Mr. Ten Minutes. Florian's name? Mr. Ten Minutes. Florian Doggery. Mr. Ten Minutes is his...

Say it. Yeah. Wrong. World record holder for apnea, diagnosed myocarditis. 10.31 was his time, I think. 10.31. Jeez. That's so long.

Meanwhile, he's complaining he can only hold his breath for eight minutes. Like, bitch, that's so long. Meanwhile, he's complaining. He can only hold his breath for eight minutes. Like, bitch, that's so long. I mean, you know, I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday. I do. A year and a half ago, I remember thinking, you know, one silver lining of COVID is going to be that science will regain its place as, you know, an important part of our civilization, right? Like there was a day in the 1960s when a scientist and engineer was really respected and the best and the brightest kids wanted to go into those professions. And I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore, right? I mean, if you're a super bright kid today, you're going to go want to work at Goldman Sachs or something like that. And I remember thinking like, God, you know, if they develop a vaccine to this and, you know, develop a vaccine in a year, which is unheard of, it's going to really impress people.

People are really going to think science is amazing. And instead, I think the exact opposite has happened, right? I think that there has been a fundamental confusion between science and advocacy. And I think it has done a huge disservice to science in the short term. And I don't know where it's going to shake out. I wish I had something I could go into a crystal ball and look back and say in 10 years, how will this have panned out? Because guys like this, I completely believe that. And I absolutely think that there are lots of side effects to vaccines. I still

think for most people, vaccines are a net positive. But I think that there's been so much discussion of anything that talks about anything about a vaccine that's bad, we can't talk about because we've taken this advocacy view, right? So again, the difference is a scientific discussion is one that says, let's just talk about the facts. Let's look at all of the facts and let's speak with varying degrees of certainty and uncertainty. An advocacy view says, I have a point of view about what is important for your health, what I believe is important for your health. And if the message is get vaccinated, then we're going to talk about that at the expense of talking about anything else. Including the negative effects. Including the negative effects of the vaccine or being able to talk about it in a nuanced way. And

this is going to probably get me in a million piles of shit, but like, I'm not excited about getting my five-year, my four-year-old and seven-year-old vaccinated. So I look at everything through a two-by-two lens of risk and reward. So you're either picking up pennies or Bitcoins, and you're picking them up in front of tricycles or trains. So that's your risk-reward trade-off. So if you're an 80-year-old person, getting vaccinated is like picking up a Bitcoin in front of a tricycle. It's a no-brainer. It's a no-brainer, right? The reward, the Bitcoin, is so worth it compared to the downside of getting hit by a tricycle, which would hurt. If you're five years old, I mean, the risk of dying from influenza is five times higher than the risk of dying from COVID. So if we knew the vaccine was 100% safe and we had a million

patients that had taken it and we could clearly document what the risk was, maybe it's worth it. But I don't know that today, right? Now, for me, yeah, it makes sense. Like, the risk of me getting myocarditis from long COVID is higher than the risk of me getting myocarditis from a vaccine. Do you think that's true still? Because it probably was true before the advent and the use of monoclonal antibodies. Yeah, it's a good question. I just had a patient who got COVID two weeks ago. And so I'm one of his doctors and then he has a primary care doctor as well. And we wanted to put him on monoclonal antibodies. His primary care doctor didn't want

to put him on monoclonal antibodies. Why? Felt that his risk was too low to justify it given the side effects of MABS, but the risk of MABS are pretty darn low. So in the end, we get monoclonal antibodies. But what is the risks? Oh, I mean, you can have a hypersensitivity reaction to it. Very small risk. And also, especially if you're monitoring a person while they're getting it, it's basically a non-existent risk. So my view was, yeah. And by the way, have you seen the new Pfizer drug that came out, this protease inhibitor that was just approved or given a UA? I mean, that thing is remarkable. Like stupidly remarkable. And again, it wasn't a huge trial. So I want to see more data, but in the roughly 2000 people that got this, that were

divided into two groups, in the placebo group, so meaning the people who weren't getting an actual drug, the risk of adverse reaction was something like 6%. In the drug group, it was 2%. Meaning no adverse reactions. The mortality difference was 12 people versus one people. So it was a 91% reduction in death and about a 63% reduction in hospitalization. This is a protease inhibitor. So it's a slightly different mechanism from the Merck one that is a nucleotide inhibitor. So, yeah, I mean, today with that drug, with monoclonal antibodies, with fluvoxamine. Yeah, fluvoxamine, which is fascinating, which is an antidepressant.

Yeah, it's an SSRI. What is the mechanism? I don't know. And that's not to say one doesn't know, but I don't know. Dr. Drew was explaining it to me, but I forgot. I mean, we became interested in it based on really early reports that suggested that it was minimizing long-term neurologic fog that some people were experiencing. And then there was a JAMA trial and then very recently a Lancet trial that was a bigger trial, a very well-done trial. And it, on an intention to treat basis, so meaning for all the people who took the drug versus those who didn't, and it's 10 days, 100 milligrams twice a day.

It's about a 67% reduction in death and hospitalization. Just from an off-the-shelf SSRI. That's fascinating. So a cocktail or a stack of fluvoxamine, monoclonal antibodies, this Pfizer drug, all those things. I had great results with the monoclonal antibodies. All anybody focused on was ivermectin when people were upset at me. But I said that casually with a list of all the other things. I didn't even promote it. But for whatever reason, there's been some sort of a demonization

of that particular drug. Make of it what you will. Which, by the way, you know the safety profile of ivermectin, right? I mean, it's just a horribly dangerous drug. Tell me about the safety profile because it is kind of hilarious. Tell everybody, I should say. The WHO estimates that ivermectin has been dosed 4 billion times since its inception. So not necessarily 4 billion people, but 4 billion doses of this drug have been administered. And in that time, there are a total documented number of 28 adverse neurologic responses. This is one of the safest drugs ever.

There's no antibiotic that I'm aware of that has a better safety profile than this. When you saw that goofy Rolling Stone article that claimed that there was a hospital in Oklahoma and that they had gunshot victims that were waiting to get into the emergency room because there were so many people who overdosed on ivermectin. What did you think of that? I didn't see the article. You didn't see that? It is a 100% fake story, but Rolling Stone printed it and Rachel Maddow

tweeted it and then doubled down afterwards and was claiming that there was calls to poison control like which means jack shit if the drug isn't poison you fucking idiot like it's it's a dumb that's a dumb thing to say like poison control like it does it's not poison yeah I mean look we we we had used ivermectin in some patients six months ago. We don't use it today. So we use fluboxamine today. And I'm waiting to see if more data emerge. There are five clinical trials registered on clinicaltrials.gov that are looking at it.

The problem is most of the trials on ivermectin to date have been very small. And they've looked at many different things. So when these people do meta-analyses to combine them, the trials are so heterogeneous. So they have different endpoints, they have different doses, they have different durations. They're combined with different drugs. It's messy. It's so messy. And then there was that one very, very fraudulent trial from Egypt. And that really diluted things. Wasn't there another one that was fraudulent?

Possible. I feel like there was one that, was it Argentina? There was one in Brazil that got a lot of talk, but I don't know if that was it. So the data's messy and it's also- If you look at the Andrew Hill revised meta-analysis, and I think his is probably the best, and I think it came out in August, it looked at, if you included all those studies, including the fraudulent one, it looked really good. Ivermectin with a p-value of less than 0.01 had a 90% reduction in hospital admission and death. Now, the minute you stripped out that one fraudulent study, the results became way less

impressive. It went to a 38% reduction with a p-value of 0.05, which is right on the cusp of not even being statistically relevant. What about in use of prophylaxis? That's the problem. That study included both prophylactic use and treatment use. What is more, is one or the other more promising? That's a good question. I don't know what's being tested in those five studies today, but I've, so I shouldn't speak because it's just not something I'm, I don't know the data well enough. What I was going to say is that my, the cocktail that I used, what I called the kitchen sink, was monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, IV drips with a high dose of vitamin C, glutathione, zinc, and then I did NAD every other day. And you didn't do fluvoxamine?

No, I did not. No, I didn't know about it at the time. You should have called me. I should have. I was sick in September, September? No. Wait, was this before your Alcon? Yeah, it was before the Alcon, quite a bit before the Alcon.

We're in November now. So it must have been August when I got sick. Yeah. Yeah, it must have been August when I get sick yeah yeah it must have been August but I was better very quickly and I think how symptomatic were you did you I knew I knew when I was coming home something was wrong I was come I was in Florida which is the you know at the time it was a hotbed and I was doing arenas so I was doing stand-up in an arena. And I'm doing it in the round. And so this is what it's like.

So I'm on stage in the round. Around me is 15,000 people. They're screaming. It's a COVID cloud. And then I go through the audience to leave. I go through the audience to get to the stage. And I go through the audience to leave. And as I'm walking through the audience, people are screaming, and they're high-fiving me, and they're like, thank you, thank you.

I'm shaking people's hands, and then I go into the back room. So I did that. And then the second night, I went to a pool hall. I met my friend John Shoman, who's like a legendary pool cue maker. And we played pool until like 3 o'clock in the morning, 3.30 in the morning. And I had a bunch of margaritas. I was hammered. And I was tired.

I was really tired. And then I started feeling like shit. And I was like, oh, my God, I feel terrible. But I just thought I was hungover. And then the next day, I had a headache. And I was like, oh, I feel like garbage. But I didn't know if I was sick or if i was just hung over i thought i was just hung over drank a lot of water ate a bunch of food had another show that night no problem killed had a great show a lot of fun flying home

i started to feel shitty but uh again i wasn't sure because I was pretty fucking drunk on Friday night and I was like maybe that was it maybe it's just I was just I need to just go home get in bed and go to sleep but um when I got home I said to my wife I said I feel I feel odd enough that I'm going to separate from everybody and my kids were already asleep because I got home really late at night my wife's already had COVID and so I just avoided her and went right to bed. And then I was sweating. I was sweating in the middle of the night. I was like, this is not good.

So then I got tested the next day. Are you vaccinated? No. Okay. So I got positive, tested. And then right after I got tested, that day I got IV vitamin drips. and then the next day i got monoclonal antibodies within a day of getting the monoclonal antibodies i felt pretty fucking good on that would be a tuesday by the end of tuesday i felt pretty good by wednesday

i made that video that went viral i remember that that was wednesday so that was like three days after and i was like like, I feel pretty good. Yeah. And then by Friday, I was testing negative. By Thursday, I tested negative on one of those over the counter tests, but not like a PCR,

not a PCR. Friday, I tested negative. And then Saturday I was working out. So, I mean, I'd put of your cocktail to me, the Mabs were the,

that's the linchpin. I think so too. That's what I've been telling everybody that when, when people get sick, like, uh, I don't know if you've been paying attention to this Aaron Rogers thing. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. He asked me what to do.

And I, um, look in any other world, when a friend calls you up and you've been sick with something, you know, Hey man, I got the thing that you got. What did you do that helped you? And I said, I really think the monoclonal antibodies helped. And I said, do you have access to those? And he did. And then I recommended the vitamin drips, IV vitamin drips, and be really aggressive with it. And then I also recommended NAD.

And he did those. And he also got better very quickly. This is not – it shouldn't be controversial to tell someone what you did. I'm not offering unsolicited medical advice. I'm not telling people do this and don't do that. What's odd about his case is that he told people he had been, in quotes, immunized. I wasn't aware of this until later. Like he had done some sort of a homeopathic, which to me always is, that's, it sounds like voodoo. When someone says homeopathic, I go, oh, you do voodoo. Like, I don't think that's real, right?

It's homeopathic. One part per billion? What is homeopathic? What is that? What does it even mean? It's nonsense. It means giving a dose that is so diluted that it's non-existent and claiming that there's some benefit from it. But what does it mean? Like,

why is it homeopathic? What is the even, what is even the definition of that? I don't know what the entomology of that word is. Somebody gave me some homeopathic medicine once and it was fucking sugar. Like when I'm taking it, it was like these little pills. I was like, this is sugar. It tastes, it tastes so sweet. It seems like sugar. And pills. I was like, this is sugar. It tastes so sweet. It seems like sugar. And they're like, no, no, no. It's Arnica or whatever the fuck it was. And I was like, bro, this is sugar.

This is not fixing anything. But anyway, he did some protocol that some homeopathic doctor put him on. I don't know what the protocol was. I don't know if that would even – how could you even do it? Like what could immunize you? So he was telling people he had been immunized was given one copy of the virus, right? What I don't even think he was doing that, but he has, um, an allergy to what is the stuff called again? Jamie is an allergy to, it's an ingredient that is in the mRNA vaccines that specifically says on the CDC website that if you have this, I have it in my phone. If you have this allergy, you actually should not take the

mRNA vaccine. It says it on the CDC website. Um, in which case he would, uh, he would have to take the Johnson and Johnson. So why didn't he take that one? I don't know. I think he was worried about blood clots cause it was like right, right around the time where people got blood and Johnson. Yeah, so why didn't he take that one? I don't know. I think he was worried about blood clots because it was like right around the time where people got blood clots, where they pulled it for blood clots. Which was so ridiculous. I mean, there's another reason.

Yeah, six people. Six people out of, I mean, I don't remember. I did the math on it at the time. I mean, it was just another example of failing to basically communicate nuance. Is that what it is? Yeah, totally. Now, when it comes to VAERS, like VAERS reports, like how underreported are they? It's a good question. I mean, I think they're more reported now because I think we're realizing that there could be more things going on, right? Like at the

time, put it this way, when a drug hits the market, the insert, the package insert basically says, these are the side effects we saw in the trial. These are the things you should be aware of. Well, at some point, the real world application of that is going to be greater, meaning the number of people that take it is going to be greater than what you see in the clinical trial. So, you know, we should see more side effects as time goes on. And obviously it's important that they're all reported because most of them are probably unrelated to the drug. I mean, we know that from clinical trials, like if the placebo people are having more reactions than the drug people, but only by kind of capturing all of them will we see if a pattern's

emerging. I think that's, I don't know. I mean, that to me is what's disappointing in all this is just that somehow this has turned into anything that questions the safety of this or the benefit of that somehow means you're anti that. I mean, I'm a very pro-vaccine person, but I still think to not ask the questions about the risk versus reward trade-off. You know, the Financial Times did a really nice analysis a few months ago that plotted by decade what the risk reduction was from the vaccine. So if you were 85, it took you from a risk of, you know, 2% down to a risk of 0.05% or something like that. And it did this, if you're 80, 70, did it all the way down to 20. And the first thing that jumps out at you, so their purpose of doing this analysis was to show that an immunized 80-year-old has the same

risk as an unimmunized 50-year-old, which is pretty cool because a 50-year-old's in pretty good shape. So if you're 80 and you get the vaccine, you're now like a 50-year-old, which is pretty cool because a 50-year-old is in pretty good shape. So if you're 80 and you get the vaccine, you're now like a 50-year-old walking around. But two things I found interesting about this. The first was everybody experienced about a 1.5 log reduction in risk. So a log is 10x, two log is 100x. So 1.5 log, just call it directionally a 20x reduction in risk. just call it directionally a 20X reduction in risk. So at the surface, that says everybody should get vaccinated because the risk is always a 20X. But if you don't know the harm of the thing, then that risk at some point won't be worth it, the risk reduction. Because a 20x reduction when you're starting at 2% means you only need to treat 100 people to get the benefit. But if you're a 40-year-old or a 30-year-old and your starting point of risk is so low, a 20x reduction requires you to treat 10,000 people to

see a benefit. So at some point, these curves intersect, the curve of risk from the vaccine and the curve of benefit from the vaccine. And that's where children come into play. And that's where, by my math, below the age of 13, I'm having a hard time seeing the data with the limited data set we have. I only have anecdotal evidence based on my own children. They both got COVID and it was nothing. I know that children have died from COVID, but I also know that those children, almost all of them had pretty severe comorbidities. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the latest data. I know the New York database, which, you know,

again, we're talking about, I mean, kids are dying way more commonly from influenza, from rotavirus, from other things like that. So again, look, if in a year we have enough evidence where that vaccine is just as safe as the MMR vaccine, great, let's do it. I'm just saying like, it's not as pressing as it was for someone like me. I thought even though my risk from dying of COVID was really low, I was more concerned with sort of the comorbidities of COVID. Right. There's been talk of people getting vaccinated and then catching COVID afterwards being one of the best ways to get really strong immunity. Because if you get vaccinated, you have a protection from death and hospitalization. And then if you get COVID, then you get the much more

robust immunity that's imparted by the actual natural immunity from the infection. I think probably you're also getting, vaccines are, depending on which one you get, are typically highlighting B-cell or T-cell response. So the mRNA vaccines are really good at inducing B-cell immunity, which is antibody-based immunity. The adenovirus vaccines are better at inducing T-cell immunity, totally different type of immunity. What is more effective at stopping the virus? It's not clear, but my two cents on this as a former immunologist, but speaking like out of his ass a bit is I think the best way to vaccinate will be one of each. I think that if you got an mRNA vaccine, and we don't have data on this yet, but I hope that we do have data to test this hypothesis. So you would get like one shot of the J&J, wait a while, and then one shot of the Pfizer.

Exactly. So my plan is to probably wait until Novavax gets approved in the US before I get a booster and then boost with that or J&J. And what is Novavax? I think it's an adeno. What's the difference between that and the adeno that we have now? It just seems more effective. So if you look at the European data, it seems more effective than even the mRNA vaccines. Now, when you see people getting myocarditis and pericarditis and strokes and what have you, do you think some of that has to do with not aspirating? Like if someone is shooting the vaccine directly into a vein inadvertently because they didn't aspirate, do you think that that could be causing some of these side effects? Because even when they did Joe Biden on television, they did not

aspirate. And I was shocked. I'm watching this. I'm like, I can't believe they just shot that into his arm. Like, that's crazy. You're supposed to aspirate, correct? Yeah. Although typically with these intramuscular injections, they don't really aspirate. I mean, you know, I remember the first time I would teach a patient how to inject testosterone, for example, if they're doing it in the upper part of their glute, which is where you're supposed to do it. I would say, look, there's enough blood vessels there and it's a big enough needle, even though it's like a 23 gauge or maybe a 25. Just do a quick aspiration. Typically, in the deltoid, there's not really huge blood vessels there, but I don't know. I mean, that's an interesting hypothesis. Yeah, because it's a limited number, right?

And if this stuff is causing this problem, like why is it causing this problem with some people and not others? And if you're supposed to aspirate, but no one does, like, is that, I mean, there are blood vessels there, right? Yeah. I mean, they're tiny at that point, right? Because they're typically jabbing you with a little needle like this. What's more interesting is, has anybody looked at the amount of muscle mass in the different people who are getting this? In other words, are you more likely to get this? Are you less likely to get it in a muscular person because there's such a big target and you're almost guaranteed to be putting it right into the muscle? That's an interesting question.

That makes more sense. That actually does make sense, right? Again, it's wild speculation, but worth testing. To me, when I hear about therapies now, I feel like it's a shame that the only thing that gets discussed is the vaccine. And in particular, wanting people to get vaccinated that have already recovered from COVID seems asinine to me. It doesn't make any sense. to get vaccinated that have already recovered from COVID seems asinine to me. It doesn't make any sense. When we have these therapies that are available, these therapeutics, whether it's the new Pfizer stuff or for sure the monoclonal antibodies, which are very effective, why would anybody be continually pushing the vaccine on people who have already had COVID and recovered?

I don't know. And I think what's even more hard for me to understand is why people are still being told to wear masks. Yeah. I mean, it's so logically inconsistent with what is so obviously inevitable. SARS-CoV-2 is never going away. Like it's never going away, right? In 50 years, this virus in one form or another will be a part of our ecosystem. So when I see, you know, the head of the CDC talking about the importance of wearing masks, I'm saying to myself, is the implication of what you're saying that we will wear masks forever? Because if it's important to wear a mask today for some reason that I can't understand, it will presumably be just as important in 50 years. So is that just the new world order?

Masks everywhere? I'll never be able to go to an airport again without wearing a mask? You know, I mean, we should just accept the fact that this virus is here to stay. So let's worry more about the resilience that we're going to develop around this as opposed to about the resilience that we're going to develop around this as opposed to, quote-unquote, containment. Do you know Naval? Naval Ravikant? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he tweeted something I thought that was very appropriate. He said, this pandemic is not going to end when everyone is vaccinated.

It's going to end when everyone's infected. Everyone will be infected. There's zero doubt in my mind everyone will get this virus. And you haven't gotten it yet? Not to my knowledge. Have you checked your antibodies? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, constantly. Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get tested all the time for whatever reason. I mean, I'm going to get tested again tonight. I got tested here. I'm going to go get tested in an hour. So you're going to go to Formula One in Brazil? Yeah. Wow, you're a wild man.

Oh, Brazil's an amazing circuit. Oh, I've been to Brazil. You've been to Interlagos? I've never been to the circuit, but I've been to Brazil for the UFC multiple times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How did you like the F1 here this year? It was pretty wild.

Have you been to many races? No, that's the first one I've ever been to. What corner did you sit at? I can't imagine that. I don't know. It was in the Goldman Sachs fucking thing. But I can't imagine that this is the only Formula One race course in America. It's the only built for purpose one like this.

I mean, the U.S. has always had a Grand Prix, or almost has always had a Grand Prix. But they do it in streets, right? Yeah. Or Watkins Glen was an actual circuit or street circuits. But Kota's amazing. I mean, that was sort of one of the huge perks of moving to Austin for me was to have this circuit in my backyard. Well, you're a freak when it comes to racing. I mean, you love that shit. That is your thing. I freaking love it, man. Look, my son is named after the greatest driver of all time.

What's your son's name? My youngest son is Ayrton. Oh, Ayrton Senna. Okay. I watched that documentary on him. It's wild. Yeah. The video that you were showing me today of your little formula one car, that's formula three, formula three car, whatever the fuck it is. That thing that the little tiny car that you're whizzing around in, that's, that's a wild video. I mean, it is, where do you store that thing? Um, you have that at your house? No, no, no, no, no, no. So, so, so I actually rent that car from a guy who has it stored in

Houston because the real thing with those cars is you have to have an amazing mechanic. Like you have to have a person who, cause something you're always fixing something in those cars, right? They're not that expensive to buy, but they're expensive to run. Right. And it's not just the tires. It's like, I mean, just the other day, that video from that day, I mean, like the auto blip stopped working. So the first session I was out there, you know what auto able to hit the throttle a little bit so that the RPM goes up. And then as it's winding its way down is when you want to drop the gear so that you've rev matched so that you don't engine brake and unnecessarily slow down. So in formula cars, they auto blip because you're using paddle shifters now. And that means anytime you do a downshift, the sensor knows it and just hits a little blip. So I'm out there driving and like at the high gears when I'm going six to five and five to four, it's working.

But when I'm going three to two, I'm not shifting. I'm just staying in third. And it's like there's enough slow corners at Koda where it's a total disaster. Like the guys behind me are going to bump into me because I can't accelerate off the line. So after two sessions of this, we're looking at the telemetry, we're looking at the data to see why am I not doing this? And we can't figure it out. We're like, maybe I'm, you know, I'm thinking I'm making a mistake. And then we finally figured out, no, the auto blip sensor stopped working. They use auto blip on a lot of new cars, like new manual cars. Yeah. And Formula One cars are all auto blip on a lot of new cars, like new manual cars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Formula One cars are all auto blip, which is interesting because when I learned to drive

paddle shift, I always blipped myself because you left foot brake. So you heel toe. Well, no, no. No, you don't have to. In my MX-5, I have to heel toe because I still have a clutch. Oh, okay. In the Formula car, you only need the clutch to get into first gear and reverse. Once you're into first, you don't need a clutch anymore,

so I left foot brake. Oh, boy, my left foot is a dummy. My left foot, I've tried to hit the brakes before, my left foot's like. You have no nuance with my left foot. On a street car, I still right foot brake. And any time I try to left foot brake, I do the same thing. I'm like, dude, what is wrong with you?

It's so bad. It's crazy. But somehow in a formula car, I feel very comfortable left foot braking. Maybe it's just like your brain tells you we're racing now. We're on a racetrack. Because when I try to hit the brakes with my left foot, I'm like, you don't know what you're doing. Well, you just don't have the feel for it. I know, but it's crazy how bad it is. Because my right foot is so adept at it.

Yeah, but I have a simulator too. So most of my reps are in a simulator. Well, yeah, you have this amazing system at your house and I'm very jealous. I need to get one of those. Dude, I have a new one. You should come over and check it out. I'm scared. I'm scared I'll be fucking racing with you.

You don't get motion sick, do you? No, I don't. Because that's the only thing is like I have put friends in there and they get sick as shit. Oh, that sounds awesome. No, I don't get motion sick, luckily. But that system that you have, like I should tell everybody, Peter has this thing where you have like a steering wheel that's a yoke, right? Which is, by the way, I have that on my Tesla. When I'm getting used to this yoke, which is-

It's a formula wheel, yeah. I'm not a fan for a fucking street car. I think it's goofy, but that's how the car comes. Yeah, yeah. But then you have this huge screen that's kind of curved, right? Is it curved? I have three screens that are wrapped around me, yeah.

And then you have a real clutch and a real brake and a real accelerator. So you're treating this like you're essentially seeing a very close simulation to what you would be seeing on a racetrack. Yeah. I mean, the simulators come in all shapes and sizes. You can spend a million dollars on a simulator, right? What? If you're a Formula One team, that's what they're spending, right? What?

The F1 teams have million-dollar simulators. What does that look like? It's a real car and it has six degrees of movement. So it moves this way. Oh my God, pull that up. It moves up and down and it moves this way. Oh boy. So you get to simulate every aspect of it.

So it's like a flight simulator for like a combat pilot. That's right. Wow. So you've got that end, right? And what is the visuals? What are they seeing? It's still three screen. So VR, last year, no actually earlier this year I did the VR experiment.

So I bought the four best VR devices on the market. Like I said, cost is irrelevant, I don't care. Just let me get the best four. Tried each of them out, total garbage. Really? Yeah, total crap. For someone like you that knows how to race? No, no, I think for any car simulator.

So this is it? Whoa! So this does not look like three screens. This is like a giant screen. This isn't typically the ones that... This is fucking wild. So this seems like this guy is really driving. Oh, he has one huge curved screen. Yeah. That is why that's a million dollar racing simulator. It says, so he's got the full cage. He's in a car. Oh my God. This is fucking incredible.

Yeah. This is, this is incredible is incredible it's it's it's insane you can never have too much money peter because this is one of the things you want you know what's funny about this simulator or or these ones in general is the size of the room you need to put them in so this guy's experiencing shake in his hands oh as do i so that's the thing i was going to say so you don't have to spend a million dollars to get a really good simulator, right? If you go away from motion, just the pedals, the wheel, and the belts can provide a ton of sensory feedback. But it feels like that would really make you a better racer. Hit that shit again.

Let me see that from the beginning again. Just take it back to where it was or anywhere. Let me see that from the beginning again. Just take it back to where it was or anywhere. When I'm watching this guy do this, it's like that seems like when you're looking at it through his POV, that seems like that would really make you a better racer. Like, look at that. That's wild.

Like, it seems like you're racing. The sim is everything. And the sim is calculated to the grip of the tires and the amount of g-force you generate? The software I'm using is so good that when I get in the car and pull out and do an outlap, it knows the tires are cold. If I push it, I crash. That's crazy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And not only that, it has built-in tire wear. So for example, if I'm driving the McLaren MP430, which is a Formula One car in the simulator, it has the Pirelli softs on it. I know that the first three laps I can't go very fast. I have to get temperature in the tire.

I hit my peak time, laps four through seven, and then the tire degrades. Wow. Yeah, it's just super precise. So then what do you do? You pull in and restart the game? Yeah. Restart the simulator, rather? Yeah.

Or I just drive cars with tires that have a longer life, so I can get 15 laps or 25. There's some tires I can get 35 laps out of. But they will have a commensurate- But they have lower performance. Yeah. Yes. Wow. You won't have peak stickiness.

That's crazy that it's just like the actual tire in the real world application. You adjust everything. We adjust the light. So, for example, at COTA, if you ever run first thing in the morning, when you're going into turn six, you're freaking blind. So I want to simulate that. So I will tell it, show me sunrise. Let me go do 10 laps at sunrise. And I have to now pick new reference markers to turn because I know I can't see turn

six and I can't see turn actually late in the day. You can't see turn 10. You have to take turn 10 blind at sunset. No. Yeah. You have to take turn 10, which is by the way, a flat out corner blind. Oh my God. That's so crazy. Now, are you wearing glasses? No, I'm just in, I'm just in my monitors. But when you're driving, are you wearing any kind of sunglasses? I just have a visor, and I have multiple visors. Is the visor... It's UV protectant, but I generally like wearing my clear visor, not my blacked out visors. Because you just want to be able to see everything.

I want maximum acuity, yeah. Wow. Yeah, this is the ones that I normally used to see. Okay, this one's bullshit, though. That one... Comparison to the other one. Depends if bullshit though that one comparison depends if it's moving depends if that's oh see this one i know that i'm in a race simulator this one's fucking weak but you're still getting a ton of value out of this because remember the big part of the simulator is learning the track right is learning the line and learning the steering control and the throttle control. Well, this looks pretty dope right here.

It's enough. It'll get you enough. So it's like you're looking through a weird windshield or something. Yeah, the problem with VR. That's 2009. Is it just, the reef. Yeah, that was the Williams FW16. That was the. Is it just, it, the reef. Yeah.

That was the Williams FW16. Uh, that was the FW16. Yeah. So the, um, the refresh rate is not fast enough and the resolution is not high enough. So it's,

it's, I think VR is probably awesome for a flight simulator because things aren't moving that fast in a flight simulator. Even though you're traveling fast, your relative distance is not, but in a car, like you see how, you know what it's like to drive a car fast, like things are happening like that. What kind of refresh rate are those monitors? My monitor's refreshing at 320 frames per second.

Wow, it's not in hertz? Well, hertz is. That's what it is? Hertz is frames per second? Hertz is one over 60, but yeah. Oh, okay. They talk about Hertz is frames per second? Hertz is one over 60, but yeah. Oh, okay. They talk about it in frames per second. So it's smooth, even though you're... I can run...

With my computer, I can run at the maximum capacity of the simulator. Wow. That's wild. But what do I not have? I don't have movement. I don't have yaw. Right. And yaw is the single most important feeling for a driver to develop.

The ability to recognize the G-force on your body. No. It's the ability to know the difference between front and rear grip. Oh. And the simulator doesn't have that? Mine does not. If I want that, I have to spend 10 times as much. Okay. So that's those million to spend 10 times as much. Okay.

So that's those million dollar ones. That's right. So for me, I know that I'm oversteering only by vision. So if I'm driving the carousel at Koda, right, and that's a corner where you, in a high downforce car, can go flat out. You can be pedal to the metal around 16, 17, 18 of Koda, that curve at the end. But in most cars you can't. And in the Formula 3 car that I showed you the video of, you can't be flat out in that corner. It doesn't have enough downforce. And you judge the grip of a car, the ability around a corner, it's based on feel, correct?

Yes. And that's what's the feel in the simulator it's it's so what happens is in the simulator is i'm pushing how how hard can i go and i know i've gone too far when i see uh-oh my back is spinning out from under me the problem is that's happening a split second after i would have felt it so in simulator, it's actually harder to correct oversteer than in a real car. So it's only giving you like 70% knowledge or something like that. When it comes to oversteer. Understeer is different. Understeer is a visual thing.

So the simulator is perfect for understeer, but it is limited in oversteer. Wow. There's too many things in this world. You could get really excited. You are like me that you don't want to try to play golf for the same reason. I'm never going to play golf. Well, I see how you've taken to bow hunting, and I see how you've taken to racing. Yeah, there's too many things in this world.

We should probably wrap this up. We're more than three hours in. Yeah. Isn't that wild? fucking time warp in this room, right It's the lack of light. It's like a casino. No windows. It's a little bit of that, but it's just interesting conversation You know, how do you like this studio? I love your last one. Yeah, the last one which is right next door Well, I have no no, I mean the one in LA. I'm sorry. Oh, this is like the same It's not much different in terms of like the inside of it i like this one better than the one that i had in l.a but um in terms of the studio space like where i'm at um now that i'm

opening putting a gym here um it's great i loved having the gym there and having a sauna and you know how are you going to bring bring the archery simulator thing? Yep. Yeah, I'm going to bring that next time. I want to try that. Yeah, it's fun. You'll love it. Yeah, you just have to swap out.

You don't shoot your arrow, do you? Yeah. You shoot everything. You just take out your regular field tips for a flathead tip that looks like the head of a nail. Okay. And you're shooting it into a Kevlar screen. And it's all HD animals roaming around and they scream and they do everything.

Like the elk bugle, just like a real elk does. It's amazing. Yeah. All right. HD animals roaming around and they scream and they do everything like the elk bugle just like a real elk does it's amazing yeah yeah you'll love it I'll get that in soon next time you're here we'll do that awesome man thank you brother I appreciate you thank you Jamie tell everybody your Instagram and all that jazz Peter Atiyah MD ATT I am D MD that's Instagram and Twitter as well yeah and the podcast is the drive the drive and that's on everything every A-T-T-I-A-M-D A-T-T-I-A-M-D That's Instagram and Twitter as well. Yeah. Same thing. And the podcast is The Drive.

The Drive. And that's on everything. Every single Monday, all on health and longevity. All right. Bye, everybody.