The Joe Rogan Experience - #177 - Hamilton Morris

Episode Date: January 18, 2012

Joe sits down with Hamilton Morris.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Hamilton Morris comes here with a video camera when the podcast is in its most cluttered state possible. This room is a wreck. I look like I should be on hoarders in this fucking room. I gotta clean this bitch out. This is ridiculous. Too much traveling, man. Too much traveling. Yes.

You know? You know how it is. Hamilton Morris. Hello. What's up, buddy? Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed a lot of your stuff that I saw online, man.

Especially that, for those who don't know, write for uh for vice right for vice.com that's right vice magazine for vice magazine i think the first thing i ever saw you do you were tripping somewhere in the jungle i don't really remember what it was but you uh you had taken some trip to hang out with some indigenous people and they what did they give you it was the mayaruna indians and they gave me a... Well, they actually didn't give it to me. It was sort of a complicated trip to find them. But they traditionally use the venom of this frog called Phelomedusa bicolor

that produces a venom that's rich in all these different psychoactive peptides and specifically contains this substance called dermorphin that's a super potent opioid. But they kind of whoa yeah but it doesn't have any sort of like a classical opioid effect like it's not really a sedative and people claim that it gives them

everlasting energy they're able to hunt for days without sleep and to go days without eating and all sorts of supernatural feats. Wow. You have a great voice, by the way. Can we just say that?

You have a very mysterious voice, and it's very interesting. You should read books to grow that. Yeah. If you know cool shit and you have a voice like that, dude. Amazing. All right. Please. Sorry.

So what is the effect? Well, that's what i've been told psychoactive that would you that i would go days without requiring sleep and i'd be able to hunt all night for animals in the jungle with these indians jesus and uh so i was expecting more of a stimulant type effect but then this chemical dermorphin there's no real reason you should expect it to be a stimulant it's an. There used to be a theory of autism that was based on them detecting dermorphin in the urine of autistic children. So they thought that there was some kind of bacterial organism in the intestine of these children that was naturally producing the dermorphin. And so they thought autism was this kind of opioid mediated

pathology like wow yeah in the same way that you're talking about endogenous dmt and how that can cause a psychedelic experience without ingesting a drug this was the idea was that there's an endogenous intestinal opioid bacteria that produces dermorphin but it's never been demonstrated anyway so it's never been demonstrated so Anyway, so I thought... So it's never been demonstrated, so how did they come to this conclusion? That sounds so fascinating. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah.

I never heard that theory before. Well, there's all kinds of psychoactive substances that have been detected in the urine of people with different sorts of mental illnesses. You know, there's 5-MeO-DMT detected in the urine of schizophrenics. Whoa. Yeah. That totally makes sense yeah wow yeah yeah i mean it's well it totally makes sense if you think about it because we we all have bodies like people's bodies go haywire you know things things go wrong i have vitiligo so i have spots on my uh my hand where my pigment doesn't grow anymore so it's like weird shit happens to bodies

weird shit easily could happen to your body's your brain's ability to produce psychedelic chemicals could you imagine if every day was just tripping all day long like you couldn't get out of tripping instead of licking frogs you're licking this guy and paying him $20 just to get off. What? I don't know what you're talking about, Dan. If your body was producing a drug like a frog. Oh, no, I didn't mean it like that way. I don't think it's that way, Brian.

His body's not producing a drug he's ingesting. His body's producing a drug internally, you silly boy. I know, but what if he secreted it out of his ass? Who the fuck is secreting? The guy. No, if you were producing the drug inside your body, you're secreting it. If you're urinating it.

Yeah, if you're urinating it. And then you became a frog. Do they actually get 5-MeO from frogs? Can they do that? Absolutely, yeah. And some toads, right? Yeah, and how do you do that absolutely yeah yeah right that's real and some totes right yeah yeah yeah and how do you do that um there's different techniques for doing it i used to know a guy that raised bufoalvarius and he lives in boston and his technique why am i not shocked they have

glands that you just squirt it out pretty much yeah collect it yeah at least four two on the neck and two on the legs and he would grab it by the scruff of its neck and then take a cat and show it the cat. And it's terrified of cats. And then that causes it to secrete the venom. And then he would pinch all of the glands onto a glass sheet and dry it out. Wow. That's fucking wild.

I tell you, the secret's cat, Joe, in life. Everything seems cats. We've been talking about feral cats, these cats, making drugs. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. So you just scrape it up and smoke it? Yeah, but it's not just 5-MeO-DMT.

There's also apparently some quantity of bufotinine and also a bunch of other things. That's why it's not really safe to eat it. Damn. The things people will risk to get high. No, no. It's actually worth checking out. Really? Yes.

I actually used to shop for it. Before in the podcast, I was doing a lot of research and buying them in mass quantities when I lived in Ohio, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe invest in a few frogs and cultivate a relationship a relationship with them i mean is it illegal it may be illegal 5meo dmt was recently scheduled so yeah it uh it used to be you could get 5meo dmt like on the internet right absolutely yeah that's incredible they just didn't know um i don't

think it really poses that much of a risk in terms of I doubt there's very many 5-MeO DMT hospitalizations compared to even things like LSD. It's just such a rare thing, and it lasts for such a short period of time. You could just make it like a frog kissing booth to get around the law. Don't say this is to lick or to get the drug off of, but if you want this drug and you want to kiss it. Brian, I'm going to bring you to a doctor. you want this drug and you want to kiss it. Brian, I'm going to bring you to a doctor. I'm going to bring you to a doctor. I'm going to bring you to a doctor and he's going to

find out what the fuck is wrong with you, kid. You went too deep in the rabbit hole? Yeah, way too deep. When a guest like Hamilton Morris is here, I could see where you get a little carried away. You wanted to you wanted to

you wanted to perform on his level right no i i just want to go to where he is playing around too much i was playing around too much you're you're not even a professional stoner but you're like a professional uh psychoactive expert you're like one of those dudes who you could say hey man what is it about that lotus flower? And you go, oh, well, the lotus flower. And you'll explain it perfectly. Yeah. How do you know so much about all this stuff?

Well, I've studied it in school for years. I started out studying neuroscience. Where'd you go to school? The University of Chicago. So was this something that was just always pulling at you, like how the mind works and various chemicals um yeah not necessarily with the drug connection but i was always interested in science and neuroscience and then once you understand that area of it it becomes even more interesting

and then also medicinal chemistry pharmacology it's all interrelated and now how did you start putting together these videos online? Well, I left Chicago and moved to New York and a friend of a friend worked at Vice Magazine and told the editor that I had been interested both academically and in terms of writing about all these psychedelic drugs and they wanted to do more informed drug-related content for the magazine so so they asked me to start writing a monthly column but this is you know vice used to have a totally different attitude towards drugs in

terms of you know they'd give someone like an ounce of mushrooms and put them in a hotel room and just record everything they did while it was happening. They weren't really interested in the science of it. Not that that's a bad thing. So they used to have that attitude. Yeah. They used to have that attitude and now they're more open-minded to discussing the scientific aspects.

So do you think the scientific aspects for the longest time where it was, it like, I think it was like maybe Hunter S Thompson that maybe fucked a lot of people up. Cause his thing was just sort of take them blast off and enjoy the ride of it yeah you know and that you were kind of a fool to try to quantify it and package it all together you know sure yeah do you think that that kind of like set that kind of mindset sometimes it means that's a fun mindset when you talk about like you know eating some mushrooms go to a football game i mean some people who like look down upon that oh yeah but there's other people that you know that that

actually enjoy doing something like that it's not the spiritual thing it's not the uh the the full blown psychedelic connection that you can make yeah Yeah, I certainly do. But it's fun, too, right? Look down on that. No, I think any way that anyone chooses to do it is perfectly fine, as long as they benefit from it. It don't hurt. It don't, like, stab people in the process or kill a dog or something. If it was legal, it would be great,

because then you would know, like, what everything was. That would be the best way to deal with it. what everything was. That would be the best way to deal with it. The idea that you're just buying stuff from people you don't know. It's so hard to cultivate a friendship where you're trusting someone to sell you something they're not supposed to be selling you. You get into a tricky situation for both parties. Especially with something like LSD where who knows where it actually comes from with something like mushrooms and maybe you're one

degree of separation away from the source that's producing the material but with lsd it could be 20 degrees of separation you don't even know what it is you got to be bold as fuck to eat mushrooms in the wild because because just to be like you're sure oh that's what it is i mean there's a few aren't there a few psychedelic mushrooms that look like really similar to things that are like super poisonous yeah there are definitely gallerina marginata a bunch of the gallerina yeah genus mushrooms look a lot like the slow sabies and uh are massively poisonous oh dude could you imagine how many people have died from that? I don't know.

That's terrifying, right? Yeah. Come on, camera guy. You're in this room, dude. You can't just observe, bro. It's just too weird. Have a seat, man. Have a seat.

Sit down with us. We've got to include your camera guy. Otherwise, this doesn't feel organic. It feels stared at. Yeah. This is Matt, everybody. Matt, the camera guy guy he's here as well because um hamilton is doing something on uh isolation tanks and we're going to check out

the float lab tomorrow in venice where uh crash my friend craig aka crash is uh the mad genius putting together the baddest float tanks in the world. We're going to go check out his stuff and his crazy cellular influence device. When did you first learn about floatation tanks? Is this something that you knew for a while? Yeah, I mean... What gave you the idea to do this project?

I've always found them interesting. I think they're pretty fascinating for anyone that's studied the history of psychedelic drugs just because John Lilly used them in such interesting ways. And also, at the very beginning of psychedelic research, there were always these attempts to try and isolate the experience from the environment in some way when they were trying to quantify or qualify

the different effects of new drugs in the 60s. And because it's a class that's so much based on the environment, they wanted to try and figure out a way to remove subjects from the environment and test them in some kind of an unbiased setting. And the two ways they had were sensory deprivation tanks and these Gonsfeld devices. Yeah. So we were talking about it earlier you've only had one yeah century and it was quite a while ago it sucks that it's not more readily available

you know i think uh if you could just get into it for a little bit you know if you get into like a regular thing like even just once a week it's great man if you could find a place that has it it's like a massage i bet like i i just recently got my first massage and i always kind of went shunned it off just because it seemed weird to me and i forgot my first one now i i get it you know it's just nice relaxation you know it's not that expensive it's really good for you too i think it's really good to have someone that be affectionate to you even if it's just you know even if it's really good to have someone that be affectionate to you even if it's just you know

even if it's just you know someone rubbing you with their fingers like that's really really intimate you know we're pretending

that it's not sexual because it's not touching your groin but when some big fat sweaty woman who really knows how to rub a neck

when she's getting in there with lotion and everything that lady's fucking you she's giving you affection She's giving you affection. They're giving you affection. They're rubbing your legs. When someone's rubbing your feet,

they might as well be blowing you. When they're digging their heel into your back. We're just little children. We're little children to leave the genitals out of the picture. Because that's what that person is doing. They're being affectionate to you. You're paying them to be ultimately affectionate to you. Because, yeah yeah it works the

muscles and yet increases you know uh blood flow and yeah it breaks up scar tissue it's great therapeutically but it's also great because it's affection what if they had like finished it off with like like rocking you in a chair where they held you for like 20 minutes at the end and you were they were just like playing with your hair at the very end like a baby or something yeah that's how that would work you should add little bonuses like that you know that's what you're into extra ten dollars they'll do that yeah they should do it do the whole thing i remember uh there was a place i used to go to and they uh they arrested one of the dudes there because he was uh he was giving dudes massages and blow jobs he was like blowing a lot of the gay guys

that came in here. And so they caught him. The double-double. And I'm like, look, he's just trying to make his customers happy. Yeah. You know, that's what his customer wanted.

Exactly. I mean, that is what the guy wanted. He wanted to do it too. Who got hurt there? Yeah. They should have that for everything. In the perfect world, as long as it's like really clear

that that's what you want. Right. Because if you're like a straight guy and all of a sudden he's blowing you, and you're like, dude, wrong signal. But if you're a gay guy, who gives a fuck? Really? Are we trying to stop that? Why are we trying to stop that, Hamilton Morris in 2012?

Why, Matt the cameraman? Matt the cameraman. You can talk, brother. You're allowed to talk. So it's crazy seeing the internet all blacked out today like let's say google and reddit and uh wikipedia's hamilton yeah i noticed it what did you think about the sopa thing i haven't read enough about it i mean i think it's horrifying if it is what i think it is but i'd like to do a little more research. You can even read about it. Wikipedia was blacked out. It represents a trend.

It represents an attempt. And whatever it is, it's trying to control or having the ability to control the internet. But the reality is they can do that now. If the government wanted to step in, like if you had some crazy Al-Qaeda, pro-Al-Qaeda website up they could shut you down trust me it's not going to do anything but create an underground tunnel that we're all

going to use and it's going to be really you're just you can't lose you're going to lose against the internet if you tried to do this anyway if you tried to start banning websites if you tried to like start monitoring people there the internet will find a hack for it just like they do every single iPhone a day before it's released. Maybe. I don't know. Who is they?

Who's ultimately going to be in control of it? Is that what's going on? I don't think there's a they. I think what's happening is people are realizing as more people get more access to information that they're not buying the bullshit anymore and the only way to stop that is you're going to have to limit their access to information you're going to have to be able to control them you're going to have to be able to somehow another

box them up you're going to have to be able somehow the the trend is giving information freely through these fucking cell phones and wireless internet connections and they're coordinating meetings and then people are setting things up and they can't stop it. They can't control it. And that's driving them crazy. But they can also work through the system. Like when you think about how many Wikipedia entries

are written by the pharmaceutical companies that are, you know, how much Wikipedia material is actually advertising in one way or another. Is it really? I mean, of course, if anyone can edit it, who wouldn't take advantage of that incredible resource? Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, it's not all good. It's not perfect but it's the best way the best way is let the internet sort it out the best way is not the government controls the internet that's

the worst way that's the worst way possible a bunch of people are willing to go to war they get to control the internet fuck you no you don't that's crazy you fucking resource hogs you can't control the internet too jesus christ you know you're stealing minerals in africa and stealing oil in the middle east and trying to jack the internet it's the same motherfuckers god damn it brian i blacked out my website today did you yeah really yeah i don't know how to do that yeah i did it really poorly and quick i just changed the logo and made all the text God damn it, Brian. I blacked out my website today. Did you? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I don't know how to do that. Yeah, I did it really poorly and quick. I just changed the logo and made all the text gray, dark gray.

Do you feel like you're a part of the movement now? Yeah. I feel like I've accomplished something. I feel a little left out. I feel a little left out. Well, NBC would probably be pissed off at you if you did that, probably. If I blacked out my shit? Yeah, because, I mean, the people backing sopa is all the big media giants

you know all the darlings that want to google's not back wikipedia is not back i mean entertainment oh okay studios like disney disney nbc well yeah i guess they would be the ones who could benefit from a crackdown you got to think about how much money has been lost. Now, there's my question. A lot of people have gotten things that they didn't deserve because they kind of downloaded them illegally, maybe. But how much money was lost? Was really any money lost? I wonder. I wonder if like, I wonder if it didn't exist. would those people have gone out and bought it is that what you're saying or would you say maybe they just downloaded it for on a whim and maybe if they like it they might tell somebody else maybe somebody else might buy it like it's

possible that it's not causing any loss you know i mean i don't know it's definitely a loss i mean if you look at go to a movie theater nowadays it's not like it used to be you think people are downloading shit you think that's what's going on for real? Hey, I hate to admit it. I used to do it. I downloaded every single movie, allegedly, that came out that weekend. Don't say this online. Allegedly.

I mean, I might be playing a character. Don't say this online. I'm glad you're playing a character. Your character's an idiot. I'm just acting like a typical guy on the internet, you know. Okay, yeah. I hear what you're saying. I don't think it's...

But now I don't do that shit. I don't think it's that. I think if the movie theaters are empty, it's because of the economy, A, and because of... The movies suck, B. A lot of movies suck. Yeah.

It's hard to find good movies. And that's the problem. It's weird going to the movies nowadays and taking a girl on a date and spending $80. It's like, wait a second. What happened to $6 movie tickets instead of $20 movie tickets? It's called inflation, bitch. Catch up.

I know, but that's one of the reasons. There's a movie theater that's in Pasadena by the Ice House that we walked by. And yeah, the movies were like one or two weeks old. They weren't first week movies, but they weren't old yet. And they were like, I think, $3 tickets. Yeah, yeah. That place is cool. What's the name of that place i can't remember it's uh off of uh colorado that's i love when you find a place like that yeah it does something cool like that place like just slightly old movies yeah really cheap super cheap that's how i think wait yeah i can wait i'll wait i'll support your cool business and it's kind of a retro movie theater

it's not new at all like it's old school what what you remember in the 80s when E.T. came out. And you're like, ooh. Coolest movie experience ever, man. We were playing at the Houston Laugh Stop. And what was that stupid movie that they made about some kids in the woods? Stay by me? It was looking for a witch. Blair Witch?

Blair Witch Project. Right? Isn't that it? Yeah. Is that it? It was like a fake documentary for a witch. Blair Witch? Blair Witch Project. Right? Isn't that it? Yeah. Is that it? It was like a fake documentary style? Yeah, Blair Witch.

Yeah. Me and Chris McGuire watched that. These guys came down to the show, and then afterwards, one of them worked at a movie theater, and he said, you guys want to go see the Blair Witch Project right now, just us? I was like, oh, shit. So it was me and him and my buddy Chrisris and like a couple of his friends and we just alone in the theater he turned the thing on like he literally had the keys and we watched the blair witch project alone wow that was fucking awesome it's like the only way to watch that

thing was it was the perfect way to watch that movie and i tried to watch it again it was fucking terrible second time was terrible i tried to like i don't know recreate the moment did you hear mcdonald's has to now put up signs saying that their french fries cause cancer that they're whoa yeah uh it's in it's something that's in french fries potato chips coffee cigarettes uh the chemical is produced through the browning process you know like when they you know uh fries in the fryer uh it causes cancer like that browning the browning process of i guess the oils that are in it or whatever and uh so they have to put up signs uh and i guess there's ways around it like they don't have to use do it the browning process or

they could do it the baking process you know but that of course would take long the thing with fries it probably you know makes it super quick it's interesting that it's the browning process and it kind of makes sense because you know they say say that if you eat meat and you eat it well done, like the carbon, the outside, it's really not good. It's like the black shit that people love, the crispy outside. Right. That's really bad for you. Yeah. That's the worst part.

Yeah. Right? I think it is. How fucking weird are people, man? But they're so delicious that's the most taste best tasting cancer ever would you say that's the best tasting cancer oh by the way yeah a lot of people got mad at us because of this last podcast i had a fucking a bunch of annoyed people with me on twitter why uh i don't know man there was a couple people that are annoyed that were vegans and one guy i might have overreacted to because i just get tired of people with their hashtag, I'm vegan.

Like they say something and they go, I'm vegan. He was saying, because we were talking about animals getting killed in processing plants. And it does happen. You know, groundhogs and all kinds of animals die. You know, it's not, you you buy plants from a store i mean unless you're growing out your own organic setup and you're doing it all yourself chances are in the harvesting of the plants some animals are going to die unfortunately it may be even more what's that maybe even maybe even i don't know if it's more i don't know if it's true but different

it's like mice the the the you know the area is going to be devastated unless you have some really good setup or it's great composting. Unless you're doing it all yourself for your own food. If you're doing it all yourself for your own food, that's one thing. But if you're buying some shit from Whole Foods or from wherever, it's coming from a farm somewhere, even if it's organically grown,

you don't think some animals are getting jacked? They're getting fucked up. There's an article about how in Australia, at least, it's a greater grown you don't think some animals are getting jacked oh yeah i think it is there's an article about how in australia at least it's a a greater total loss of life but it's a different type of life if you're a vegetarian than if you're yeah omnivore because uh because of all the mice that are killed in the process of harvesting grains but i don't know it totally makes sense but i guess on the gradation of life i don't i don't know. It totally makes sense. But on the gradation of life. I don't think... Vegans are ridiculous. We need...

Well, they're not ridiculous. They're sensitive people. And I can understand and appreciate it. Excuse me. I can understand and appreciate it, but it's just... It gets annoying that I'm vegan. I'm...

You know, like, it's like... There's a self-righteous air to it. And there's a weird thing that it's okay to eat some living things. It's okay to kill trees. It's okay to kill plants. It's okay to kill fruit and vegetables. It's okay to kill that.

You can chop that fucking lettuce right out of the ground and it's dead. And then you eat it. That's okay. But it's not okay to kill an animal. When do you draw a line? Is there any distinction? What if the animal was just meat? It was just meat with a heartbeat.

And it couldn't think and it just sat there. If you didn't eat it, somebody else would. Is that okay? At what point is it okay to eat an animal? Another life form. Only stuff that can't move. Who are these super sensitive people is what you should be asking. Forget even responding to that because who cares what other people eat

and what their views on eating meat are. That's silly. No, I think there's a certain cruelty associated with factory farming, and I agree with you. Obviously. It's gross. It's horrific. I try to avoid cheeseburgers except In-N-Out.

In-N-Out's pretty fucking spectacular Five Guys burgers I hope those cows were treated well if I had known they were treated well I'd feel much better about it but the reality of you buy a Kentucky Fried Chicken or you buy any sort of meat product

from any fast food, anything you're buying something that did not live a happy life it's going to be the cheapest meat they can possibly get you. Right? I mean, isn't it? I don't know. Right? Half of it's fiberglass, right?

Like, look at Taco Bell's meat. I don't think vegans are silly. I just don't agree with it. I don't agree with it, and I don't think we should be I don't think we should be treating animals the way we treat people I think we should be kind to everything we can be kind to I definitely think factory farming is fucked but I think regular farming is pretty goddamn natural I mean it's what people have been doing forever yeah as long as you're not abusing the animals

it's that's what people have been doing for forever. And those animals, I mean, who's to say that you're not supposed to take out cows? That's silly to me. Someone's going to take them out. Is it a jaguar? If a jaguar doesn't take them out, can people take the cow out? We can't.

You're talking about extremeness, though. Most people don't believe that. Even most normal anti-cruelty animal companies or whatever they're called, charities, even them, they still believe in humane killing of animals. But what you're talking about is people that are just like nothing. Well, there's definitely grades, right? Yeah. And that's only a small amount of the people, Joe.

You're talking about like the three Twitter followers or whatever that are. But it's a significant chunk of the population, Joe. You're talking about the three Twitter followers or whatever that are. But it's a significant chunk of the population, I think. There's a lot of people that are really upset at any idea of any cruelty whatsoever to animals. And you know what, man? It's because they love their animals. I totally get that. I did love their animals, and I totally get loving wildlife.

But, you know, the idea that they're going to live forever if you don't eat them? Like, what the fuck's happening here? No, don't eat animals ever? Okay. Who's going to eat them then? Block them. The fuck's going to happen here?

Block these people. You know, are you going to go around gelding them? Are you going to make sure these elk don't fuck? Yeah. Because otherwise they're going to be everywhere. There's a town in Colorado called Evergreen. Beautiful, beautiful place. It's amazing.

It's up in the mountains. And there's a certain part of town where you can't go anywhere during certain migrations. Because the elks will just walk down the main street. It's fucking amazing. There's like a hundred elk. There's a photo of them. And there's like a herd of them. And they're walking down the middle of the street. It's like a hundred elk there's a photo of them and there's like a herd of them and they're walking down the middle of the street it's like wow what a crazy place where you live man yeah a herd of elk just walk but you know if if it wasn't for people shooting those elk

the herd would be 200 the next year it'd be 300 there's not enough predators like unless you want more mountain lions unless you want to start bringing mountain lions into your daily equation you got to do something to get rid of those elk like they have to shoot those fucking things if we want to live there you're going to have to shoot them deer are fucking terrifying if you've ever been in a place where where deer are like super plentiful and you can't drive safe yeah ohio it's ridiculous there's deer flying all over the place and there's you wake up normally i would wake up at my at my dad's house when i lived at my dad's house and see a deer like like every week i would see a couple in my backyard yeah

and if you're driving home at night that's what it's scary main streets are right next to my dad's neighborhood so i mean obviously that's dangerous yeah somebody's gonna eat them you gotta eat more of those yeah i've never actually had deer. I've never had any of that craziness. You've never? Are you a vegetarian? How long have you been a vegetarian? Since 2009.

But I eat meat occasionally. Is it a health choice? I think it just generally encourages me to be more conscious of what I'm eating because otherwise i'm more inclined to eat just gross fast food and things like that right and i think my diet's improved enormously since i became a vegetarian yeah the more plant matter you can get in it seems like you just feel better you feel healthier but goddamn meat is delicious i eat fish occasionally. Do you?

Yeah. No red meat or anything like that, Lawrence? I have my theory. I've said it before. That the stuff that's the quickest is the best for you. Like deer. Deer's really good for you because they're hard to get. Those motherfuckers, they run because they get really good meat.

Cows, it's pretty good meat. What's cheetah tastes like i don't know because it has to be the best but that's too delicious imagine you get a cheetah burger oh damn people would be like no don't eat a cat yeah isn't that funny cats will eat you but nobody wants you to eat a cat you can't go hunting tigers and eat the tiger like what if tiger meat was fucking delicious people be like you dick but meanwhile that tiger would hunt you yeah you dummy i'm not saying tiger should be extinct i'm saying if i lived in india i would think tiger should be

extinct not necessarily but definitely if i lived in the sunder bands i say leave cats alone what about big ones man yeah leave Meh, leave them alone. Fuck that, bro. You ever see a real one? You just have like a cat thing that you would have to do if tigers are about to attack you. Just throw like a piece of paper the other direction and run, you know, or something like that. Yeah, that would work. It probably does.

There's probably like in their instinct that they would do that. Maybe through a ball. Yeah, I wonder if there's like any people that's ever tried that. Dude, I can't even believe you're asking that question on the internet. Well, I mean, it might be DNA stuff. It might be you got too high before the show. Just throw a red ball when a lion's coming at you. See what happens.

Hamilton Morris, this is a ridiculous show I brought you on to. I apologize. But then again, I don't. It's fun. I'm just kidding um so you you've been doing this uh vice.com thing for how long man since about 2007 2008 is that full-time your thing no i i work for other magazines as well also writing and stuff yeah writing for harpers as well. Writing and stuff like that. Yeah, writing for Harper's as well. But Vice is the main.

What was it like when you sat down with that Shulgin character? What is that guy's name? Alexander Shulgin. Yeah, and he's like some crazy super chemist dude, right? Yeah, he's really brilliant. That was an amazing interview, dude.

Yeah, and that was really difficult. People kept writing me saying, oh oh you're so lucky you're so lucky but it was incredibly difficult to get that interview with him and it took years so it wasn't like a luck thing like vice was like hey we found a kooky guy for you to interview go visit him i had to i actually been to his house a couple times beforehand and i had to be vetted by his family and all these things, because a lot of people don't understand what he does, and he's harassed by people. There's this ridiculous idea that inventors are somehow responsible for what is done with their creations, so people think that if somebody

dies of an MDMA overdose, that he is somehow responsible for it, which is, of course, totally ridiculous. Wow. But you know that mentality. Yeah, there is responsible for it which is of course totally ridiculous wow but you know that mentality yeah there is that mentality which is pretty silly you know the legalization of any of this stuff would require people to go over dosages and be scientific about it and if if any of this stuff was legal you know if it was legal if you could just be prescribed to be prescribed if you could have a doctor that would say, you know, you're pretty sane. I think you could handle ecstasy. So he prescribes you a little ecstasy.

Go have a party this weekend. Yeah, well, I don't know about that, but I think using it as an adjunct to psychotherapy is not that far away. Well, do you think so? You really think they're going to accept that? They're certainly trying to. The organization maps. That's pretty much what they do.

Yeah, I've read that they've made great strides with people as well with post-traumatic stress disorder. Yeah, which is not surprising. I mean, I think a lot of the stuff that MAPS does is just proving these things that most people understand intuitively, but it has to be demonstrated in a rigorous scientific fashion before any regulatory authorities will accept it. Yeah, wow.

It would really help a lot. No doubt about it. It would restructure society. If people were allowed free use of psychedelics, everyone looks at it as such a frivolous issue. It's so silly. Why even concentrate on such things? What are you trying to do?

Are you trying to get high? If you talk to most people about psychedelics, you feel like you're stuck in a 1950s movie. What are you trying to do with your life, kid? What do you trying to do you're trying to get high you know if you talk to most people about psychedelics you feel like you're stuck in a 1950s movie what are you trying to do with your life kid what do you want to do mess with those mushrooms put that stuff down get yourself square get on a straight and narrow put the mushrooms down boy yeah isn't it i mean doesn't it seem like that it's a it's not a subject that's easy to be approached seriously with adults. There's not a lot of them that will engage you in it. In the regular world, you want to talk seriously about psychedelics

and seriously about positive effects of them and mushrooms? Who wants to talk to you about that stuff? Yeah, I mean, no, most of it has to be shrouded in scientific research. What if you were working for an insurance company and you were like one of their top sales guys, but you're running around the office telling everybody they got to do acid? You know?

Yeah. I guess I don't even really know what public perceptions. I mean, I have an idea, but it's so hard for me to go and to really understand what it would be like in middle America or something if you worked at just an insurance office. Well, I think it's different now everywhere

because of the internet I don't think there is necessarily a middle America that's the same middle America there were some innocent parts of the country or countries where things were a little quieter or slower but I think because the access to information that people have today i don't kids can learn a lot of shit online and even if their environment sucks they can develop and and be engulfed in whole communities online and they can evolve like so much quicker so there's like groups of people that evolve like in small towns now that would have they wouldn't have existed two three decades before you know i think that's that's like one of the big differences between now and you know i try to think about what it must have been like to be my parents to grow up you know the internet doesn't come along until you're like way too old

you're barely getting into it you just go on cnn.com and check things and what's the weather the big thing i remember going to the library all and check things. Libraries were the big thing. I remember going to the library all the fucking time. That was the cool thing to do. Rent a movie, go get a book. Libraries must be fucking hurting right now. Yeah. They're not doing as well as they've been doing before.

My mom libraries. Libraries are doing great? I think so. Really? Yeah. I would just think that it's easier to get information without going to the library. Yeah, my mom doesn't even go to a library anymore. She would go multiple times a week. Most people have access to a computer.

Yeah, but then there's all these subscription-only services that are too expensive for people that are individuals to use. So it's like if you want to use Factiva or SciFinder or LexisNexxus or any of these databases scientific databases you have to go to a library or wikipedia right right of course so they're always going to exist in some form yeah it would be too expensive there's reading books is a different experience than reading like a kindle i don't know why man i don't know why well yeah it's it's kind of better i don't know why though i don't know why i like turning pages you know i don't know why i feel like i've actually got it with me i think it's softer i think once the technology gets up which already is here but once you get the technology because where you can kind

of feel like a cottony feel or you know i use a kindle i use a kindle right i mean i do have one of those things but if i had to choose between that like if I had the book and it was on the Kindle, I would take the book with me. I don't know why. Do you smell your books before you read them? No. You never smell your book before? Do you ever smell your book?

I haven't smelled books before, yeah. Yeah. I like that. I shouldn't say I've never smelled my book. It smells like a little musky. I shouldn't say I've never smelled my book. I like to smell what I'm reading. You probably have.

It's cool. Until Kindle has that ability to hold in your hand, it's its own thing. That book was great, and it smells a little weird. Until it has that kind of real feeling to it. Because right now, it's just like you're looking at a piece of glass. Words are on the screen. You disconnect from that. The last used book that I bought was The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

It was the only way to buy it. It was used until Jan Ervin just re-released it. You've read that, right? I am familiar with it. I've read part of it. I haven't read it cover to cover. And I've read part of the second book as well. What was that?

It's like The End of the Road or something like that. It was The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and the other one was, goddammit. Turn Back Time? Something in the, Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth? Something along those lines. Yeah, he had a whole career before Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. Is it just a Bible scholar?

Yeah, that's the idea, in that he was the only one who believed that it was all about mushrooms, that the entire, the christian religion like a big part of it was about fertility rituals yeah and mushrooms yeah but even that's you know i don't know if you're familiar with the book shroom by andy lechner or lettner no it's not oh it's good you should definitely check it out it's really true yeah it's a pretty impressive piece of research but he in the book and he goes through all these different mushroom myths but he talks about uh the sacred mushroom of the cross and claims that allegro never even believed that but that he was just so he hated christianity so much at that point in his career that he just was

looking for some way to disprove it or dismiss it or make it look ridiculous in the public eye whoa that's awesome if that's true holy shit damn for part of me doesn't want it to be true because it's such a great story i really wish you could say look dude the bible was about dudes tripping on mushrooms and i really wish you could say that and that's what rick strassman is trying to do now with at least with the old testament and dmt wait really what is he saying i saw him speak relatively recently and he said that he his new career goal is to go through all the old testament looking for instances of altered states of consciousness that might be indicative of some guy, a scholar from Jerusalem that was proposing that about Moses, and he was, that Moses' encounter with the burning bush

might have been some reference to the acacia bush, which is a very high DMT content. Oh yes, right, absolutely, yeah. And that's how he saw god yeah he's like a legit scholar i forget the gentleman's name but he was a legit scholar who was bringing up this connection to possibly you know psychedelic experiences yeah and then i've also heard a theory that the ark of the covenant was a meth lab that That's awesome. That's a fucking great quote. That's the kind of quote you hear and you go, damn, I wish

I wrote that. Yeah. The Ark of the Covenant's a meth lab. Do you ever hear those people that believe the Ark of the Covenant actually exists? And it's in, um, what part of Africa is it? I don't know. I only know about it through Indiana Jones. Yeah, I've seen the photo of that temple in Africa. Is it Ethiopia? I can't know. I only know about it through Indiana Jones. Yeah, I've seen the photo of that temple in Africa.

Is it Ethiopia? Is it Ethiopia? I can't remember. Graham Hancock was one of the guys that got him interested in these alternative views of history. I believe it was Ethiopia.

And they have this area that's guarded. These monks that guard this area. Right, and they supposedly have a 20-year lifespan because the radiation is so powerful. It's so sexy. You wish it was true. I don't know if it's true,

but I don't want anybody to disprove it. I think it's been investigated. I think the Discovery Channel or someone did a special on it. If they haven't, I wanted to do a VBS thing about it. What Hancock had said was that no one was ever allowed to get anywhere even close. Maybe that's possible. That's what he said. There's a map of it on Indiana Jones, too, during one of the cutaway scenes,

which shows the plane, the dotted line. You can just find it through there. I don't think it works that way, kid. You just completely interrupted my train of thought. I don't know where I'm going now. You know Yin Ling? Have you ever heard of Yin Ling? What is Yin Ling?

It's America's oldest brewery, and it's in Pennsylvania. It used to be this beer that, living in Ohio, people I know would go to and stock up with truckfuls just so they could have it for a year. Why? Because it's you know it's really good it really is it's it's older than budweiser budweiser came out supposedly stole their eagle logo is this a new sponsor no no no you can't even buy it here in california so so they stole the eagle and budweiser stole the eagle and used it in their logo and uh now

yin lang decided to come to ohio uh the first week sold out the entire like like ipod style like they had to build a whole new thing on their factory just for ohio now because i had and everywhere you went beer that that's all everyone served everyone was drinking that it was like the craziest thing seeing in ohio when i went back home everybody was drinking this beer and it's fucking pretty good for just like a shitty cheap light beer but everybody was drinking that's how bad ohio sucks they get excited about some shit beer budweiser's hurting us so fired up and they band together to support some shit beer budweiser's hurting from it how bad is that beer it's really good come on i wish i could give you some man you could probably get in chicago no you probably can't

i like sam adams is it like I like Sam Adams They have different kinds They have lagers It's really good It's the oldest brewery It has to be the best I don't know what's going on here I think he's broken into an impromptu commercial No you'll like it

If you ever get the chance If I find out this is an impromptu commercial. It's not. I swear to God. Here it is. Get the fuck out of here. Don't play anything for me. No, no.

That's the beer right there. Okay. I believe it. How dare you? Never heard of it. I know. Neither did I. I don't give a fuck, dude.

I'm just saying. There's a fucking hundred billion beers out there. It's crazy. But the Budweiser story was really interesting, I thought. Like how they took the logo. It's the American Eagle, dude. Everybody wants an American Eagle. What about Goodyear tires? Don't they have an American Eagle, too? Isn't there an American Eagle in there somewhere?

What about them? Is anybody else allowed to use an Eagle? Look, it's the same as Budweiser, though. Wow, it's pretty close. It's crazy. I mean, there's a slight difference. Budweiser is the Led Zeppelin of beers. Is that what you're trying to say? Maybe they stole it from Budweiser. You don't know. They've had it longest. Budweiser is the Led Zeppelin of beers. Is that what you're trying to say? Maybe they stole it from Budweiser. You don't know.

Yeah. They've had it longest. Budweiser wasn't even a company when they came out. Settle down, son. Hamilton Morris, I apologize for everything. Everything you've experienced so far today in this strange ride. So you want to do this thing about isolation tanks.

What's your goal? What are you trying to get out of this? I'd like to use one of the tanks myself. I want to try specifically those tanks that you were talking about earlier that have some kind of an auditory and visual component. Yeah, he's got that all set up, man. He's got it set up where

he's got videos of it where they're using the sound and they're playing like music and you can see the waves in the water because the the speakers are actually like floating in the water and they're they're like set up right by your head and the waves are like making the water like splash and jump and wiggle it's pretty fucking trippy man yeah yeah it's pretty trippy to think that that's going to be also affecting your body while you're in there you know you're going to feel the sound on your skin yeah fuck yeah you will you're gonna yeah you're gonna hear it on your in your ears and you're gonna feel it in your skin because it's like moving man it's moving

through the all the water though the whole thing is rippling while they're doing this. It's really pretty wild. Wait, and you hear it because your ears are under the water? Yeah, your ears are under the water. And it's not distorted by the water? I don't know. It could be on big notes. It's possible if things really splash around. What does that feel like?

That's got to feel nutty. Yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, his idea, this guy Crash's idea, is that he's going develop um like how-to tutorials uh for sports and for all sorts of different things music language they'll be able to teach people languages much quicker and that in the sensory deprivation environment with the lack of external stimuli your brain would be more, it sounds like the lawnmower man. It does sound like the lawnmower man, you're right.

It does. Does he do these nootropic injections beforehand or something like that? That's what he should do, right? We've got to give him some fucking nuclear shit. It's like an X-Men type situation. Yeah, the idea behind it is fascinating. The idea that you can program the mind better inside the sensory deformation state it really makes a lot of sense and it seems

like it would work that way if you really get someone really knew what they were doing to design like some cool programs yeah you know we think that would be like the best way to learn ever especially if you learn something cool but it'd be really seems like it would be distracting your concentration maybe i mean that's what i would think not if you got comfortable with it see the thing about the tank is once you do it for a long time you know you do it a couple times like four or five times once you once you do it you know what it is you can just settle right in and once you settle right in then it's not going to be distracting at all it's going to be wild as fuck floating there watching some just image appear right in front of you because you can't really see that the light is so dim that

all that comes through is the actual image you can't see the outline of the box have you ever been to one of those group massages where there's a shitload of people in one room and in there playing like like a movie that's on loop like on the wall of like a house you know in asia somewhere right like a birds flying yeah birds flying see i find that annoying uh distracting if it was just pitch dark i think i would be better for sure and i think that's how like with when you're relaxing in one of these isolation takes it any kind of you know sound or anything like that that seems that would be distracting you're absolutely right it would be and i have never gotten into the uh the video or audio thing that's this guy crashes thing i like

to go in and just chill on my own but i think it's fascinating i mean i'm not opposed to trying it sounds really nuts and uh if he could ever figure out how to really hook it up and do it right i mean what a great way to like learn a language mean, what a great way to learn a language or something. What a great way to like, you know, could you imagine if you took like, if you found out that you could develop a course specifically for use inside the isolation bank, like the optimum way to learn things and memorize things and put them to use, and you show that you could make people learn Spanish ten times quicker or something fucking nutty like that. Or just show you wolves on loop at night like walking slowly just to go against your fears and stuff like that

yeah if you could really get it to the point where it becomes a hologram that would be the ultimate entertainment experience dude you're living in a hologram you get in the isolation tank and they they put whatever hologram you want on. Yeah. Okay, let's do the Amazon jungle. Boom. That would be wild. That would be wild.

And you get to watch a movie. You get to watch a life take place in front of you. Sister Act 2. That's not what I'm talking about. You in the jungle, bitch. You're not even paying attention. That's what reality is going to be eventually. It's going to be, you know, you're going jungle, bitch. You're not even paying attention. That's what reality's going to be eventually. It's going to be, you know,

you're going to have options. You're going to be able to choose what you want to do today. Eventually, it's got to get to a point where we can construct reality. I mean, I know that they've devised artificial realities for video games that look pretty fucking spiffy. When you're watching a good video game,

like, what is it, like, Medal of Honor or one of those games, is that the name of it? Medal of Honor. It's one of them, right? Call of Duty. Call of Duty. You watch those video games, like, the graphics are fucking absolutely incredible.

How long is it before they can project that into your head? How long is it before, instead of looking at that amazing thing, someone figures out how to project it into your head? That's going to happen. And when that happens, that's going to be an alternate reality. They're going to be able to program an alternate reality. And if your consciousness, if they can figure out a way

to lock your consciousness onto that alternate reality, it's almost like putting you in another world. It's almost like putting you in another dimension. It's almost like putting you in another dimension. Yeah. Is that possible? I think it is, yeah. That seems like what's going to happen, right? Primitive forms of it are already possible.

And things like, you know, they have those implants for blind people that allow them to see with a camera. Oh, yeah, I've heard about that. It goes directly into their brain. Jesus. You can input visual stimuli into the brain. It's still probably far away until everyone can do it, like Xbox 7200 or something.

Right. It's like how we look at the old cowboy-style photographer dude who had to throw that thing over his head. Remember? And he had the big torch on his hand and poof, and it would go off. Do you remember that? Like all the Wild West movies, the guy would have to get under a tarp and shit to take a picture do you remember all that and think about what that was there was like there was no fucking movies like shut up they could barely get an image everybody had a stand still you know you had to like really wait like how long did it take to take that

picture yeah it took a little time right yeah you couldn't just move around. It wasn't like instant. Think about that was only 200 years ago. Right. That's amazing. That's fucking incredible. That is 200 years ago. And now we're complaining. I wonder all the shenanigans that happened, like having to sit there with your family,

and then one of the kids would fart and be like, don't move. There was probably all these little things that always happened during those photos. Standing still. There was probably some humor that that was lost and that we don't have to do that anymore yeah how long did they have to hold their face right i like a lot of blurry pictures from the old oh yeah usually the kids that's why the kids are always the blurriest and all those ghost photos as well yeah is that what that is yeah because people walking out of the frame.

It's usually just a maid. Nothing drives me crazier than fucking ghost TV shows, man. I watch those ghost TV shows, and I just go, you're not going to find anything. Why are you fucking with me? That's stupid. You never find anything. There's never been a bigger cock tease than the ghost reality genre. And they're on season three or something like that.

It's like, look, and you can see this ectoplasma enters the room. It's like a speck on the screen. It's like, this is where the ectoplasma enters the room. This is where the, what the fuck did you just say? Like, you asshole. You don't have a fucking ghost. You're ghost hunting. You're not finding shit.

Shut up. Every fucking show is the same thing. There's some people in a dark room watching something through night vision and someone goes what was that noise and then they go to commercial and they come back and it's nothing right it's ridiculous my mom my uh i just got back from ohio my my home my mom's house is supposedly haunted like like my sister used to always talk about it and then my mom is now talking about it. And my stepdad, he's like owned an architect firm. He's a really smart guy.

Huge corporation this guy had, and then he retired. And he's a farmer. He's just a very intelligent guy. And he said he saw it the other day. Whoa. And then so it's just like, all right, are you guys stupid? Maybe he's fucking your mom. Is there a gas leak or a mining leak somewhere that's giving you some drug?

I think more likely he's fucking your mom. That's what I would say. If you came to me, okay. What if there was like a sour well near my mom's house? It's in the farm. What's going on here, man? I'd say, well, she's probably a little wacky. I think there must be some kind of feeling.

He's going along with her. Radon gone bad. There might be, man. Whatever happened to radon? You grew up in a test town. Yeah, we're having a radon test. Radon test in your basement. Do you remember? How about the shit that was on apples? Oh, yeah. What was that? What was that? That chemical they used to

spray that fertilizer on? Is that what you're talking about? I don't remember. There was something that was on apples that were saying it was dangerous for you. Do you remember that? No. What was it? I don't remember what the fucking chemical was. I'm sure Twitter will let me know. Twitter, somebody

please tell me what's the fucking chemical. Was it all something or another? Do you remember something like that? I know exactly what you're talking about. Whatever. My dad actually has a patent to get radon out of your basement. He used to build these machines for rich guys.

He only sold maybe 50 of them. No, radon gas is totally not legit. No, it is. It is legit? It's definitely an element. But I mean, sorry. In people's homes, is it a health issue? Is it something they really have to worry about?

I don't think so. I don't know. I've never heard of anyone I knew dying of radon poisoning. How did it get brought up? Do you know? How did it become an issue? I guess some people died somewhere at some point. They must have.

And it does exist. It is a element that leaks out of the earth and is a radioactive gas that's nasty so it's just a natural part of yeah no it's not a result of nuclear testing or anything like that it's a totally natural wow so do you think that people died because there's just some areas where it would just come through and heavy doses and no one anticipated it is that what it was? I think it's heavier than oxygen, if I remember correctly, and sort of like settles in basements and maybe near floors and people sleep in pools of it and just...

And you get radon poisoning, but it starts in your respiratory system and then you just start like wheezing and coughing a lot and shit like that. Wow. And it's actually pretty crazy that it was so popular, but then it just died off. Like, we're still probably getting this.

Did they find something new? Like, oh, by the way, radon poisoning is actually... It's just passing. Now it's all about carbon monoxide. Yeah. Well, you know, all it takes is, like, one death somewhere, and then all of a sudden everybody starts chasing after it. I mean, it could have been one extreme example that was very, very rare,

and then everybody started chasing it. And it's sensationalist stories. If you have one good story about someone dying from some invisible chemical. Or even a drug. Yeah, or there you go, even a drug. Iowa and Pennsylvania, two highest ones. That's why that beer is so good. Isn't it amazing, man, when you stop and think about that so many of the different

things that you've talked about are not legal you know different psychoactive substances like when you were talking to uh that uh shogun guy like all the different things that he was talking about the different tryptamines and how many of them are legal a lot of them are illegal illegal yeah uh 5-meo-d-a-p-t-d TET. A lot of them are. Maybe 11 or 12 of them. Maybe more. Probably about a dozen tryptamines are illegal. Schedule 1. Yeah, no, it's ridiculous.

And a lot of them never had any real popularity in the first place. Drugs like DOET or something or TMA2 were never particularly popular substances. Could you imagine if something like 5-MeO-DMT killed as many people a year as cigarettes does? Wouldn't that be amazing? Could you imagine how people would react? What a crisis that would be? We've got to get this off the streets!

Could you imagine? But meanwhile, when cigarettes do it, it's like, well, you shouldn't have been smoking. Yeah, whoops. Whoops. Yeah, I mean, I wonder if nicotine would be legal if it were a recently discovered substance. Probably not. I think the nicotine is not as much of an issue.

I think a lot of it is all the other shit they put in them to make it even more addictive. They say that if you smoke cigars, people that smoke cigars, first of all, you're not inhaling it, but you're getting a real pure type of you know it doesn't have chemicals on it and it's supposed to be not nearly as bad for you it's not great for you it's not the best thing for you you're sucking on a crazy fucking plant that gives you nicotine all day but what it is is a better healthier

version of that tobacco and that the 599 different additives that the food and drug administration allows cigarette companies to pump into cigarettes to just to make them mostly make them more addictive i think if you believe that movie with what's his name what's homeboy's name fucking gladiator dude russell crowe russell crowe remember that movie he played a dude who was like the scientist who uh knew too much about cigarettes yeah it's in a real story that was terrifying if any of that stuff in that movie i I can't even remember the movie's name or the actor's name. But they don't even need to. I mean, nicotine is incredibly addictive without any kind of mysterious additives.

But there's also the beta carboleins in tobacco that may give it an additional addictive component because they may improve mood. When that movie he was talking about and again i don't know how much that movie's dramatically i think it's based on a real story though isn't it i'm going to him i remember that's my source i remember it being based on it was like phil morris or something yeah it was terrifying to think that a company would be so evil that they would go out of their way to try to use chemists to make their shit more addictive. And you're like, wow. That's a really nutty choice. 599 is a lot.

You find out they have 599 different chemicals they add to cigarettes. Yeah, it's weird. A lot of the additives don't really even make sense. I've looked through the lists. I don't understand why they choose some of these things. Like what? Like pyridine. Yeah, pyridine would be an example. What is pyridine? It's an aromaticine would be an example what is pyridine it's an aromatic

six-membered ring with the nitrogen in it that um that is just smells really bad whoa and you wouldn't think that it would have any maybe the counterbalance it's just tons of stuff it's like all these different it just smells bad that's all it does as far as i know and in the quantities that they would be using it i can't i mean maybe it's like in a really you know in the same way that like indole in very very very small quantities smells like jasmine but then in large quantities smells like shit so some of these things that smell bad it's probably used for smell to to sell a cigarette like when a smoker doesn't smoke and they smell a cigarette you want a cigarette bad what yeah really a hundred percent it's like having apple pie when apple pie comes out of the oven and? A hundred percent. It's like having apple pie.

When apple pie comes out of the oven and you smell apple pie, you're like, fuck, I want that apple pie. Same reason. They're probably making a smell. Well, I don't know if they're making it to attract other people,

but they're probably making it more attractive to the people that are smoking it. Right. It's weird that it'd be a stinky thing. You say a stinky thing. It's probably a mixture of different kinds of stinky things

that make the smell. So some of them are just smells and so, who the fuck knows? You know, like I said, according to the Russell Crowe movie that I can't even make the smell. So some of them are just smells. Who the fuck knows? Like I said, according to the Russell Crowe movie, I can't even remember the title, they've done some deep research on hooking people in deeper and deeper with all these different

599 chemicals. It's just ridiculous. That's too many. That's a lot. It's very complicated. It's ridiculous. Even when you're looking at the interaction of two chemicals at once, it becomes incredibly complicated. How do you think they constructed that?

I mean, you understand that field. How did they do that? I mean, I'd have to look through the list of all the additives, but I don't know. I mean, it could just be, you know, even things like any candy that any child eats probably has an equivalent number of different chemicals in it. You know, people, the word chemical always sounds bad,

like there's 599 chemicals but there's i guarantee 599 chemicals in this in everything and everything so it depends on how you want to phrase it i'm sure the majority of those chemicals are benign but maybe 11 of them do have some malevolent function and are based on some tobacco industry plan to addict people. But I really do think that nicotine in and of itself would be enough, I think. You think. Do the people that smoke those natural cigarettes, those like, what are they, American spirits?

Natural spirits. Do they experience less addiction? No. No, actually, I think those hit me harder. Really? I wake up spitting up buckets of goobs. Really? Just like hacking ones.

My roommate smokes them and is just a major phlegm producer. Maybe it's like some of the chemicals in cigarettes make it so that it burns easier. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, what most people smoke, I would say, is Marlboro Lights or Camel Lights or a light cigarette. And it's more like having a Diet Coke. It's just like you just want a little taste of the chemical and a little smoke, but you're not. But then you get these guys that are like smoking Marlboro Reds where it's like having your little cigars. You know, it's like harsh.

Have you ever seen the wonderful whites of West Virginia? No. You've never seen it? What is it? It's a crazy documentary that they did on these people that live in West Virginia That have been this notorious family of outlaws and wild people And there was a woman and her name was Sue Bob And I swear to God that was her voice

I've always been the sexy one in the family And you just stop and think about that What did cigarettes do to her man? What did cigarettes do to her? Nobody sounds like that when they're a woman without cigarettes. Like, it's only cigarettes that'll give you that. I mean, maybe some crazy exotic disease. But yeah, this Zubab.

That's what she sounds like. It's amazing. If you've never seen it, man, if you just want something silly to watch, it's so well made. It's a beautiful documentary. It's pretty good. It's Johnny Knoxville's production company put it together. It's really well made it's a beautiful documentary it's johnny knoxville's production company put it together it's really awesome it's about this family they're just awesome characters man they just live in west virginia and they sell pills and they're

just always getting arrested it's just wild man it's so crazy to watch it's really really fun but cigarettes fuck that chick's voice up. We didn't talk about that guy that, what's his name? Mick Fanny, whatever that guy's name is that's running for president in the marijuana. Mitt Romney. Jesus Christ. Wait, what's his name?

Mitt Romney, man. Yeah, about him in the marijuana patient. Remember we were going to talk about that. Yeah. That's crazy we were going to talk about that? Yeah. That's crazy. I talked to you about it before we even did the show. It was so sad to watch someone that could be so calloused about his ideas like that. If you haven't seen it, Mitt Romney, a guy who's running for president, a very, very wealthy man, is standing in front of this dude in a wheelchair.

The guy's like 80 pounds, man. I think he said he had muscular dystrophy. I apologize if I'm wrong about that. He said to Mitt Romney that he needs medical marijuana and that medical marijuana is the only thing that helps him. And Mitt Romney said, have you tried the synthetic form? And he said, it makes me vomit, and marijuana is the only thing that helps him, and Mitt Romney said, have you tried the synthetic form? And he said, it makes me vomit, and marijuana is the only thing that helps me.

Would you put me in jail if you became president? Do you want to hear it? Sure, let's play it. Let's see if it sounds good. I know that sounds kind of shitty. It's really depressing. I think it's an old video that just became popular. Really? Okay.

It's so depressing. I suffer from an extremely rare type of autism. And I have to take medication for all that. Right now I weigh less than 80 pounds. I have all my life. I have two-quarter five of my doctors saying that I only have the proof that medical marijuana works. I am completely against legalizing it for everyone, but there is medical purposes for it. And you have synthetic marijuana that's available and other pain medications?

It makes me sick. I have tried it and it makes me throw up. I have tried all the medications there are and all the forms that come in after high stimulators, like steroids. I have muscular dystrophy. That's completely against my DNA. I'm sorry to hear that. My question for you is, will you arrest me and my doctors if I get medical marijuana? I'm not in favor of medical marijuana. So, will you have me arrested? Hi.

How are you? He just turned away from him and did the politician smile. Hi, how are you? How dare you? He asked if you were going to arrest patients like him, Governor. You're going to just ignore a person in a wheelchair? I spoke to him. No, but he didn't answer his question.

All right, well, this is going to be... So disturbing. Yeah. This is what we're getting. Hamilton Morris, I think you've got a good voice and you should run for president. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you could pull this off. Yeah.

Why not? All right. Do it. I don't think he's enthusiastic i feel patronized it's it's shocking though isn't it that a person like that could be like even close remotely close to being able to run things the bit that you would be so cold-hearted just walk away from that dude like that that's like a serious issue man you gotta address that issue this guy's telling you there's something that helps him and he's obviously in terrible terrible straits the guy's

fucked up man he's just can't move his body he's in a goddamn wheelchair and he's telling you this something happened against this against his you know own will you know this isn't this is something that he's saying it helps him makes him feel happy against his pain yeah and he even said I'm not for legalizing it for anybody yeah He goes, not for everybody, but for people that you can use it for medical purposes, it works. Yeah, it's fucked up.

That Hank, you can just walk away from a guy like that. You know, it's just disturbing that anybody would be so flippant with the idea that it's so preposterous, it's so gross to them for some fucking reason. I don't know what it is, but the idea of altering your consciousness any way other than the sanctioned ways that we've prescribed to for the last several decades. Anything that steps outside of that becomes a danger.

I don't know why, man. Why? You tell me, man. I don't know. I mean, it's not a majority view i don't think i think it had to do with a few people who you know when you think about it only takes a few people to make these enormous changes in drug policy i like i don't know all that much about the history of marijuana specifically but it was like that one guy primarily and then with the psychedelics it's the same kind of deal it takes one person to die at the wrong time.

And, you know, one person dies after smoking salvia, the guy Brett Chidester. And then it's illegal over 10 states. A dude died smoking salvia? No, he didn't even die. I mean, there was a teenager named Brett Chidester who wrote in his diary, I love salvia. But I also understand that life has no meaning now or something like that and then a few days later he killed himself and his mother looked in his diary and said oh it was the salvia that made him suicidal and went on this crusade to have it banned in every state that she could and was successful in something like a dozen states it's called Brett's law wow but

that's the way it always is it's's always one person that there's like that act based on the person that bought morphine on the internet and overdosed. It just takes one promising... All the mushrooms in the Netherlands are now illegal because of Gael Keroff, the girl that jumped off the bridge. Just one promising person whose photo looks good on the news dies, and that's the end of a plan. What did she do? She got mushroomed up and jumped off the news dies and that's the end of what did she do she got mushroomed up and jumped off the bridge even that's unclear i mean that was the the official

idea that was written in the news but then when i was in holland recently working on this new project for vbs we were at this place called uh magic truffles which is the largest mushroom or was largest mushroom farm in holland they make metric tons of mushrooms in this factory and but then mushrooms became legal so they converted their entire operation to producing psychedelic sclerotia but they say the whole thing is a scam they think that uh that she wasn't even on mushrooms that the entire thing is based on a friend seeing her with a box of mushrooms in her hand but on the day of the death and then they put two and two together and decided that she must have been on mushrooms when she died.

Oh, God. So she could have just been depressed. Yeah, I don't think there were any toxicology reports that confirmed she was under the influence of any psilocybin at the time. I can get not wanting to give it to everybody. I just think there should be places where you can get it where someone can walk you

through it and you should be able to make an educated choice. There's just, so many people shouldn't be denied the experience, because I think the experience makes people more aware and more sensitive. And I only think that that's good. I think the world can use a lot more aware and more sensitive.

So why aren't there centers set up? Why is it still illegal? That's where it gets completely, totally ridiculous. It gets to the point where you keep something that might be beneficial to a lot of people because some people might fuck it up. Because some people might fuck with it and do something crazy.

It also has to do with fashion and science and medicine. It became very unfashionable in the 80s to do psychedelic psychotherapy. And there there were only a number even in places like there are certain parts of germany where any any psychiatrist that wanted to could and they chose not to just because most people weren't interested in it for a while they thought it had limited potential and now i think the potential is you know there's the renewal of all the psychedelic research. But in the 80s, people didn't think it was, even people that were pro-psychedelic drugs, a lot of them didn't necessarily think that it was a viable road to producing important neuroscientific research or in terms of psychotherapeutic drugs.

Yeah, I recall hearing a McKenna interview where he was talking about that about how scientists were often like discouraged from going down those paths because people would say like you know there's not really nothing there for you well yeah it's hard it's hard to it's difficult to quantify the benefits of psychedelic drugs like a lot there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that they have lasting effects on people's lives and that they have relief from depression or alcoholism or things like that. But when it comes down to really, really putting it down on paper, it's been difficult. And often it's things like the Johns Hopkins study

where psilocybin occasions long-lasting mystical experiences or that famous paper. That's the really recent one, right? Yeah, the recent one is getting a huge amount of press, but it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. They said that it improved their personalities. Yeah. But even that is, is kind of slippery when it's, you know, mystical experience, all these terms are slippery. And if you, you know,

when you look at a nootropic, there's these very defined studies of how something does it aid rodents and navigating a maze? Does it allow them to, does it allow, does it prevent the formation of certain types of diseases, Alzheimer's? Tangled proteins in the brain or things that are indicative of neurodegenerative diseases. But there isn't anything like that for psychedelics.

There's no single benefit that can be quantified. And I think that's one reason that it's difficult for researchers. And there's ways around it. Now a lot of people try to emphasize the positive effects that are not necessarily psychoactive. So maybe they have some kind of an immunosuppressant effect that would be useful for arthritis or some kind of inflammatory disease or something like that.

That's funny that you said that because there was something I was reading just a couple of days ago about people juicing cannabis and that it doesn't have any psychoactive effects, but there's a lot of great health benefits for juicing it. Yeah, and CBD, the non-psychoactive ter terpene one of you know thc and cbd are the two main chemicals in so would you juice it like a smoothie like blend it up oh i don't know about this i don't know about this specific technique but cbd is not psychoactive and has all kinds of uh medicinal effects like it's currently undergoing clinical trials as a treatment for schizophrenia so i mean in addition to the psychedelic effect,

there may be all kinds of things we can't, you know, maybe neuroregenerative, maybe synaptogenic, maybe all sorts of different things. The marijuana one is the biggest trip because it's got so many excellent properties, yet it's illegal. It makes the best paper.

It makes the best clothes. Like, the fiber is excellent. You can make, like, wallboard out of it that's, like, four times stronger than plywood. It's, like, a really incredible plant because it's super strong. Like, have you ever, like, picked up a hemp stalk? It's really weird, man. It's, like, from another planet because it's really fucking strong, but it's light as shit. Like, you pick it up, and it's, like, this is a weird kind of wood.

It seems strange. you pick it up and it's like this is a weird kind of wood it seems strange and it has so much fucking potential as far as like you could like you can grow like a a massive forest full of it chop it all down and then have another massive forest like six months later a year later i mean it's it's renewable again you could do it over and over again and all the health benefits all that it's like it's from another planet it's really a crazy drug when you think about all the good things it does it's great it had the seeds are awesome source of protein it has all the essential amino acids it's actually good for you if you juice it if you smoke it you get high you feel amazing it's like it couldn't do any more for you come on man you can make paper out of me you want to make clothes out of me dude

you can eat my oil my oil is really good for you. Ooh, it can power cars too. It's like I'm renewable every six months. I mean, it's like it couldn't be any nicer to you. It couldn't be any more of a productive plant, you know, as far as like society just uses as, you know, as a quantity, as, you know, uses as, you know, something that you could sell. Yeah, absolutely. And it's the same thing with mushrooms as well. They have so many benefits

beyond just being vessels for carrying these psychoactive drugs. You know, I think Paul Stamets did a lot of experiments with the defense department using either P-cyanesins or azuresins and using them to de-phosphorylate sarin to break down nerve gases because in the same way that all these enzymes in the mycelium that are able to break down the cellular components of the substrate whether it's you know wood or grass or some kind of seed it's able to break it down and extract all these amino acids and then biosynthesize chemicals out of it. But it can also break down all other kinds of substrates. Like, you know, there's all this bioremediation where they use mushrooms to clean up oil spills

because the mushroom mycelium is able to break down the aromatic hydrocarbons in the oil. And to totally detoxify it, you can even eat the mushrooms afterwards. Wow. Yeah. I'd heard about something like that, that they'd use things like that in Alaska. Is that where they'd experienced that? Before the Gulf incident, that was like the last big one, right? Yeah, they tried to, and they wanted to do it in Japan as well, to clean up radioactive

waste, because you can use the mushrooms to bioaccumulate radioactive fallout, and then pick the mushrooms and slowly decontaminate an area. I mean, it's an extremely slow way to do it, but also effective. Wow. It would take hundreds of years. Well, what other options are there? I mean, that's the thing. Can you imagine if that's the best way to do it?

But then once you get the mushrooms to eat it, and then you have to pick up the mushrooms, the mushrooms are still radioactive, right? That's right. For how long? Until the decay of the radioactive atoms. So hundreds of thousands of years. So it's essentially just moving the problem to another area.

Yeah, but at least you're concentrating it. It's better to have 20 drums of radioactive mushrooms in a concrete vault somewhere than to have it covering 100 miles of land. Yeah, thatapan thing is so terrifying to me because i have no understanding whatsoever how nuclear power works i just always took it for granted i never even thought about it i never and then i just recently found out that it's about making steam it's about like the somehow or another the nuclear thing it's like the power comes from steam like power things and shit steam turbines yeah steam turbines i'm like wow that seems like so old school you know it's just they're

using like this super powerful fire to boil water yeah you know i mean it sounds ridiculous i mean my my simplification of it sounds ridiculous but when you find out that there's spots now where there's just it's no one's ever going to be able to go there no one you can't go there you can't go there that spot's fucked for there. That spot's fucked for, forever. For, we probably won't even be people anymore. Because, you know, 100,000 years ago, we weren't even this, right? We were, like, barely this as an organism. We're essentially a little bit more of a monkey than we are now.

By the time that shit's done, what are people going to be like by the time that's not radioactive anymore? We're not even going to be people anymore. We'll probably be some new shit. We all have autism. We'll probably be just like the Graze dude. We're just crazy. Something trippy is going to happen.

We're going to be assimilated with the machine. That's my conclusion. Yeah. Assimilated with the machine. What do you think is going to happen? Something's going on I don't know I don't think about it

I do think about it, I just don't it's difficult, anything seems possible it's just like with any issue where it seems as if it could go one way I certainly am a pessimist ultimately and I'd like to be an optimist are you a pessimist as far as the potential that the human race can reach?

Or is it about the possible outcomes? Are you a pessimist about people in general? I don't know. I mean, I got into an argument with Daniel Pinchbeck recently about... Really? Yeah, yeah. About aliens and he has this very optimistic idea that if aliens... He told me ghosts definitely

exist. Yeah, he believes a lot of things that i definitely yeah he's very open-minded well i i enjoyed talking to him before we say any further oh yeah no i enjoyed talking to him yeah i'm just playing but uh so so what happened aliens we were talking about stephen hawking and how stephen hawking has this idea that if we ever do make contact with aliens the best move would be to ignore them. Because if they ever come to our planet, the chances are they're not only going to exploit us, but destroy us. I mean, he didn't say exactly those words, but he generally has a pessimistic view.

And I think that that's a well-informed, intelligent view. There's no reason to have an optimistic view about that. But Daniel Pinchbeck seems to have this idea that, you know, we'll all be friends and we'll all drink Iowans together. Oh, that's so sweet. That's so sweet. I don't think so. If you look at every single organism

that we can observe on this earth, it takes advantage of the weaker organisms, including the most intelligent. We take advantage of dolphins. We put them in fucking fish tanks. Absolutely, that's exactly what I was saying as well. We put them in killer whales. We don't give a fuck. We lock them up in tanks. We know they most intelligent. We take advantage of dolphins. We put them in fucking fish tanks. Absolutely, that's exactly what I was saying as well. We put them in killer whales. We don't give a fuck.

We lock them up in tanks. We know they're intelligent. We just can't understand them, and so we force them into slavery. And let's not mention humans to humans, the conquistadors and Native Americans. But with animals that we don't understand, intelligent animals that we don't understand,

we regularly enslave them for people's enjoyment to watch on television. And then we believe somehow or another that some super intelligent organism is going to show different behavior than what every single organism on this earth including the highest us the most aware us we do it worse than any of them we do it worse than dolphins we do it worse than killer whales we have chimps we lock chimps up we don't give a fuck even by humane people people that love the chimps still keep them in, or people that love chimps keep them in cages.

People that love dolphins keep them in tanks. John Lilly kept his dolphins in a tank. So even if they were trying to be nice to us, who's to say that it wouldn't be some nightmarish scenario? It's fucking hell for that dolphin, man. It's got to be hell. They're intelligent. They just can't change their environment.

We know they have dialects, and they have crazy societal rules. Dolphins have a huge attachment to their family and their loved ones. To just snatch one up and stick it in a fish tank is fucked up, but we do it. Why would we think that aliens wouldn't do that to us? We are crazy. Could you imagine if you came down here and you watch all these little pink monkeys with their fucking bang sticks and nuclear weapons? You found out that people had nuclear weapons. You see them at home slack-jawed watching the Kardashians. We have nuclear weapons. The same animal.

The same animal. And it's all going on right now. Yeah, but the aliens are probably cute. You would want to shut this whole fucking show down. You'd be like, you're going to ruin this whole planet, you were an alien. You would want to shut this whole fucking show down. You'd be like, you're going to ruin this whole planet, you stupid fucks. You would want to come here. We would for sure shut this planet down. If we came into an area and there was a bunch of chimps,

and the chimps had machine guns and tanks, and we would shut that fucking place down. There's no way we're going to let some chimps start running shit. We would take all their weapons. We'd go, Jesus Christ, who gave chimps these fucking tanks? What are chimps doing flying around in jets? We would totally steal their shit.

We would never allow that. Imagine if chimps started coming into our towns and stealing our cars and shit. That would be a real issue. We wouldn't allow that. We would take our shit. Take from those dumb monkeys. And that's what they would do. They would come down. They would take our shit take from those dumb monkeys and that's what they would do they would come down they would steal our cars fucking all our iphones give me that how'd you figure this

out you fucking dummy they would take your iphone whoa check you out look what you did did you figure this out think about the average person how stupid they are and they have an iphone in their pocket boom and they don't know how to use it. Yeah. So Pinchback thinks they would all go ayahuasca style? Yeah. They would have a song prepared. Hello, humans.

We prepared this for you. Let's eat it after. We will eat at the buffets. The Day the Earth Stood Still, the other day. Have you ever seen that? I have, but not since I was a child. Wow, it was amazing. It was like I was watching a movie.

It was kind of cool. It's kind of cool because you put yourself back in that sort of old-school comic book style of storytelling they did in the 50s and the innocent days when they made that movie. But the other thing was how naive their portrait of an alien, what it would be, and just how naive the situation was in the military,

and there's obvious bad guys and good guys. Like, how naive, but yet... How, you know... Well, even now, there's really no impressive concept of aliens. I don't know if you're familiar with the science fiction writer Stanislaw Lem, but he wrote Solaris and His Master's Voice and all these books, and his main idea is that humans can't conceive of anything

that is truly alien. We're only looking for ourselves in the universe, and anything that was truly unlike us, we couldn't even imagine. Right, so even like the movie Alien still is a thing that moves like us. Not even close. You know, it could be a living ocean. Right, yeah. Or a living planet, right? A planet

with consciousness? Yeah yeah that's always been a fascinating idea that everything has some sort of consciousness you know whether or not it expresses pain or even feels it or can't communicate that everything has some sort of a type of consciousness well definitely our idea of life is generally very narrow you know there's like a budding field of astrobiology which is just a speculative science but even in astrobiology textbooks from a couple years ago there would be no mention of the possibility that uh that arsenic could replace phosphorus and biomolecules it didn't even seem like a possibility and now we know that that can happen how does that work what

happens um there was like a lake i think it's in nevada that had extremely extremely high levels of arsenic in the water and this researcher his last name was felice i think uh collected bacteria from the lake and found that they were producing dna and amino acids where the phosphorus atom that's present in a lot of these molecules was replaced by arsenic. Whoa. Yeah. I had arsenic poisoning from eating sardines. I told you that, right? Yeah. I ate too many sardines. I was eating like a can of sardines a day.

You're so funny. Who does that? No one. Why? You're the only person I've ever met that likes sardines that much. Are they a good source of arsenic? Apparently. Apparently sardines, they feed on heavy metal. Well they're um they feed on heavy metal well they

don't feed on heavy metal but they feed at the bottom of the ocean and that's where a lot of uh pollution is a lot of heavy metal pollution and uh they they get a concentration of arsenic not enough really to make you sick but enough that shows up on tests so you get your blood checked and you say holy shit there's some arsenic in there what the fuck is going on like is someone trying to kill me slowly? Or is it sardines? Turns out it was sardines. I wonder if you could get turquoise poisoning.

Like if you constantly ate a little bit of turquoise every day. Is turquoise toxic? I don't know. It's stone. Yeah, but if you shaved it down into a powder and put it in some proteins and stuff. I don't know. I don't know what the chemical composition of turquoise is. You just don't study shit that doesn't get you fucked up?

No, I do. How do you know? What is the best thing ever? It's so pretty. Have they? That's a terrible question, but it leads to a half-decent one. Do you think they've discovered

all the psychedelic substances on Earth, or do you think there's some? Oh, absolutely not. No, definitely not even close. When I first saw Alexander Shulgin's work and saw Picol, I was discouraged by it psychedelic substances on earth or do you think there's some no definitely not even close when i first saw alexander shulgin's work and saw pical i was discouraged by it because i thought that it had all been done that every single possible psychoactive tryptamine and phenethylamine had already been synthesized for people who don't know pical is uh phil what is it that i know

then ethylamines i've known and loved and tryptamines i've known and loved and there's two enormous thousand-plus page books written by a chemist in California named Alexander Shulgin, and they contain at least about a hundred drugs that he's synthesized in these two chemical classes in each volume. And it looks pretty comprehensive. It looks as if he's evaluated every imaginable psychedelic, but that's only a fraction of what's possible.

I love that interview that you had with the man, because I had never seen a guy like that in the wild. You know, I'd never seen some super chemist dude who's created, like, God knows how many combinatory, I mean, how many times has he created something, some new cool thing, or discovered some new cool thing?

Just hundreds. Yeah, how many has he documented? It's amazing, right? Enormous, enormous numbers. Incredible. And then he's sitting there just rattling all this information off to you It's amazing, right? Enormous, enormous numbers. Incredible. And then he's sitting there just rattling all this information off to you, and you were like a fucking kid in a candy store. You could tell. You were like, wow. You couldn't believe you were hanging out with him.

Yeah. It was so cool, the enthusiasm. It really came through. Your honest enthusiasm to be hanging around with this guy. Really, you had an educated sense of reverence about what he's done. It's like when you addressed all these things, you could tell that you had this great joy in getting this opportunity

to talk to that guy. It was really cool. I love him with a passion. He is one of the most amazing scientists that's ever lived. How can people watch that? How can they find that? If you type Hamilton's Pharmacopia, that's the name of my show on vbs um you can find it on vice.com through the video section if you just look for hamilton's pharmacopoeia um but yeah i mean he's in it and i've seen him quite a few times since then and it really is a privilege because his

entire methodology is one that's not followed anymore it's like it seems very antiquated to most young people and even pharmaceutical researchers the idea that that anyone would take a drug that they synthesized is ridiculous but that used to be totally normal they used to be the way drugs were developed the chemist who invented ritalin took it after he synthesized it and tried it and didn't really get much from it. And then he gave it to his wife, Rita, and she loved it and said that it improved her tennis game. And so he named it after her, Rita Lynn. Oh, wow. But that kind of thing was common. It improved her tennis game. Yeah. Because it's essentially like speed, right? Yeah. It's like

cocaine or... How does that work with kids where it makes them, you know, kids who are really rowdy, it calms them down. How the fuck does that work? I mean, there's a bunch of different proposed mechanisms that are kind of complicated, but I don't really know how it works. That's always been, I've met a couple kids that are on Ritalin. It's always been a very dark sort of a moment when you realize that these people are drugging their kid. You know, I don't know if some people need it but i know some people don't need it i've seen some kids that are just a little bit rowdy and they need attention they're not getting it then all of a sudden they're pilled up that's a disturbing thing to watch yeah i think it's bad especially with very young children around high school college age and especially when the mom crushes it down they snort it yeah like in uh

like in the wonderful whites of west virginia the wild and wonderful whites down they snort it yeah like in uh like in the wonderful whites of west virginia the wild and wonderful whites they were snorting pills as after right after she gave birth she gave birth she's in the hospital you remember that yeah maybe i have seen some of this actually dude it's fucking fabulous it's like watching if you you know turned monkeys loose and let them live amongst people how would they live? They would live like these people. These people are wild. They're fucking wild.

They're like a different breed of human being. Here you're in here rattling off all this scientific knowledge of neurochemistry and pharmacopoeia. There's people that could breed with you and they're there. My name's Sue Bob. I'm the sexiest one in the family it's amazing it's all going on right now at the same time oh man we had a guy on uh that was talking to us about uh

about hunting his name's steve ranella he was on the last podcast and he was telling us about he was in africa and in africa he was hanging out with these people that have to hunt for their food every single day and he was out to go with them. But they have an internet connection. They don't really have electricity. They have a generator they can turn on for like an hour or two at night. But they can't keep it on. They can't afford it.

It's hard to get gas out there. They have arrows and bows and shit that they've made themselves. And yet they check their email. You can friend them on Facebook. That's all going on right now at the same time yeah it's amazing yeah do we get you too high before the show be honest because i think i got too high i was high for a while scramble i was just having fun well it's also i'm so fucked up because i just got back from brazil so my brain is on total auto hold joe i am one of my babies was thrown up last night.

Yeah, that sucks all night. It's sad. It's so sad. I fucked up. I flew Southwest, which usually I love Southwest. But they have that whole number thing. Like if you check in too late, you're either A, B, C, or D or whatever, how many people get on the plane.

Like first they put the A's on, then the B's. And I did one of those things where you sat... The C's? Yeah, I sat... It was Columbusumbus to uh la uh well vegas to la but i sat between two of the fattest people ever and i'm sorry but um they both took up 90 of my my seat so the whole time i'm like you're in the middle and then the side so it's like a movie yeah it was i mean but i was holding myself like this and you know my my elbow pain that i've been in as well dude i am so jacked from that flight that was the closest thing to torture i've ever been and i couldn't do anything about it you can't well

didn't they kick kevin smith off yeah how big were these people pretty big kevin smith well the the the the guy was bigger than the girl but the problem problem was the guy, he had so much room to lean on the window, but he decided to lean on my side. And so the whole time, he's like on my lap almost. And the woman was trying to be a little bit nicer about it, but she was still pretty big. So she was on my space. See, that's a human rights issue. Yeah. Those fucking seats are too goddamn small.

They need a rape whistle for that. Hamilton Morris would slip right in. That's where it pays to be slender. Yeah, no shit. You could just go sideways and those fatties couldn't even touch you. You'd be like a sheet of paper between pyramid rocks. Yeah. You'd have no problem.

There should be a whistle for that or something. We have an issue. People are getting too fucking fat. It's been going on for a long time. There was an image once that I saw online from the early 1900s and it was one of those carnivals and it was the fat man in the carnival.

There would be a guy that was the fat man. And he was barely fat. In comparison to what we consider fat today, some of these people that you see that have to get moved out of their house, they have to cut a hole out and they're attached to the couch because they haven't gotten up. They've been shitting where they sit and their their fiber their skin has like melted into the fucking chair this is not just one person this is many many many people have done this

it's been a bunch of people they had to cut their fucking house open so they could pull them out attached to their couch you know and this was just you 1900s, 1903 or something. Fat man. It was like barely fat. It was like barely. He was a guy who should go on a diet. You know, he was like not, you know, Joey Diaz when he was not even at his heaviest. Like halfway there. Halfway between Joey.

So it's like that's just a short amount of time ago where it was really rare to get that fat. It's amazing. It's amazing how far society has slid or how far humanity has slid

when it comes to that. Our bodies are exploding. It's so common to see people just overflowing out of their clothes. Fast food. It's corn. It's a lot of it corn syrup right yeah isn't there a documentary on that yeah about corn is really terrible for your body

difficult for it to break down and that's why they feed it to cows and shit and get them fattened up before you before you slaughter them makes them more delicious yep i don't know used to be diet drugs were easier to obtain as well. Oh, yeah? Really? Yeah, definitely. So you think when, well, I know one girl. I saw one girl lose a shitload of weight. She lost like 50, 60 pounds.

She went from being kind of chubby to like really hot. It was like, whoa, and it happened so quickly. And she was on something called Fen-Phen. You remember that? Sure, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That stuff jacked her, though.

It just totally short circuited her it's pretty cardiotoxic stuff dangerous man so she went right back to her normal weight again she was a hot chick for like a year that fen-fen kept it rocking for like a year but it was just too nutty you know

that's been the story with almost every stimulant they've used as a diet drug they've used methamphetamine, they've used amphetamine they've used fenmetrazine they've used as a diet drug, they used to use methamphetamine, they used amphetamine, they used fenmetrazine, they've used anything you can imagine, any stimulant. Just anything that they can sell you to make you think you're going to lose weight.

No, the stimulants do work. And fen-phen worked, I'm sure. Do those things that you see, like ripped fuel and all that shit, are those diet pills, are those things effective? I don't know what's in them. Some of them have weird derivatives of phenethylamine.

Yeah, what is all that stuff? Those are just amino acids? Is that what it is? No, they're just probably really weak stimulants. You know, like phenethylamine is a close derivative of amphetamine, just missing one carbon atom. And it's illegal so you can just put tons of it into dietary supplements and it produces a short lasting stimulant effect

it's amazing that that's one of the number one concerns that people have getting rid of fat you know it's a it's a it's a very strange statement when you think about how a society becomes so successful that even when you know people are down in the dumps they're still fat they're still all fucking it's like normal it's normal to have excess energy stored away under your skin it's normal to be prepared for for so you're fucking stocked up, you know. In the wild days, it's so rare to become a fat person, you know.

It's a fucking terrible conversation. You guys checked out a long time ago. I smelled it. All this talk about fat. You know, when you have friends that are overweight

and you worry, you know, after patrice died especially our friend patrice o'neill's a stand-up comedian just died recently you know you see your friends that are overweight it's just it's like a bomb man you know it's gonna go off eventually you don't know what you can do you gotta try to diffuse it you try to lead them in the right direction or just enjoy them until they blow up did patrice o'neill think that his fatness aided his comedy as well i've never had that conversation with him so i could never uh speak

of it but he's he was really analytical about his comedy i just think he was also like a guy who wanted to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do right then and there some of the best comedians are also very impulsive people and you know it can be good and bad i know comedians that become impulsive gamblers and they get addicted to drugs like a lot of them have like really kind of wild and impulsive instincts and that's what makes them funny that that be the first person to say bitch shut the fuck up and that was patrice o'neill he was the first guy that would say you call you on your bullshit the first first guy would say, shut the fuck up. And to be that person that doesn't really worry about how this is

going to come out, just fly with it. It's a very specific type of personality. Not that many people do it. And that personality is prone to doing a lot of other crazy shit too. That personality is prone to just eat until they fucking pass out. That personality is prone to

do 15 shots on a dare. That's a wild personality. That's a personality that prone to do 15 shots on a dare. That's a wild personality. That's a personality that's going to go with you to Mexico. That's the reason why they're funny. So it becomes, you're sad. You see your friend who's really big, and you see him eating himself to death,

and you're like, what the fuck can I say? You can't say anything. There's nothing you can do. Any more than you've already done, you're an asshole. You tell them you love them. You give them a pat on the back. If you need help, come to the gym. I say? You can't say anything. There's nothing you can do. Any more than you've already done, you're an asshole. You tell them you love them. You give them a pat on the back. If you need help, come to the gym. I'll work out with you.

But other than that, what the fuck else can you do? It's a weird world we live in. People are eating themselves to death. Hamilton Morris, you don't have to worry about that shit. You stay slender with your vegetarian lifestyle on your basic alanines whatever various substances you choose do you do you are you a multivitamin guy you seem like you know so much about the body do you do you take uh supplements i do yeah yeah what do you take a big list yeah yeah i bet you do i knew you motherfucker aren't you concerned about your liver oh yeah well i mean depends on what

supplement not all of them have hepatotoxicity issues but some of them do yeah hepatotoxicity is i was just about to bring that up it's not like it's inherently bad for your liver to take vitamins but uh it's part of food right i mean that's essentially what it is everything has to go through your liver so yeah i don't that's not a huge worry unless it's something are Are some in super high doses toxic? Like what are the ones to avoid? Absolutely. Yeah.

The fat soluble ones are like vitamin E, um, potentially vitamin A as well. I don't know. It's not something I've done a huge amount of research on, but. Now when you say fat soluble, like somebody said that once, uh, for, uh, someone who got caught taking a performance-enhancing drug. And one of the people that was in his camp said one of the things that fucked him up was that he's too fat. And so he can't get it out of his system as quick. Sure, yeah.

Is that really true? Like it stays in your fat? Like if you were a lean person, you would get it out of your system. Whereas if you were a person that had a high percentage of body weight, it would remain for longer? It's possible yeah i mean that's one of the you know main physical properties of any molecule is that it has different solubilities and different chemicals and some things are lipid soluble and uh and if it's something like thc and you have a huge amount of fat tissue on your body that the thc can stay in so you're just fucking high all day certain people you're not getting high off of it

it's just just lingering in your cell it's not doing anything for you unless it's in the central nervous system what if it's giving you a very mild high just a mildest just cooks in well then they claim that there's like some reservoir in your spinal fluid or something if you crack your back the right way that'll really give you a blast of cannabinoids or LSD or something. Really? Wow. Yes. There's people that say that.

I don't think it's true. Well, there's people that say that Kundalini yoga practice can lead to psychedelic experiences. Sure. Yeah. Have you ever experienced that? Yeah.

I studied Kundalini yoga for a while. Did you ever trip? No. No. Try. I mean, that was one of the ways they tried to sell. I studied Kundalini yoga for a while. Did you have a trip? No. No. Try? I mean, that was one of the ways they tried to sell. I had to take it as part of my sports requirement in high school. You took Kundalini yoga for sports.

That's awesome. That is awesome. Holy shit, that's amazing. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And they tried to sell it by equating it with a drug experience of some kind, and that's why it was so popular in the 60s for that same reason.

But I don't really, I never achieved any profound state of altered consciousness. I have one friend who had a girl that he knew that was a friend of his that he actually went on a trip with her. They were actually just platonic friends but they would uh travel together occasionally and she was into like serious kundalini yoga where she would get up every morning at a very specific time and she would have to face a very specific angle i don't remember what it was was towards the sun or away from the sun i don't know what she was doing but she would do these very intense kundalini exercises for like an hour an hour and 15 minutes an hour and 20 minutes and she did it every day

and she claimed that when she did it for long periods of time because she did it so much she could get into like an astral traveling sort of dimension uh traveling state of consciousness where she would have psychedelic experiences yeah actually, now that I think of it, I did have some. How could you forget that? They weren't exactly the same. I wouldn't really compare them. You've had so many psychedelic experiences for you to have one in yoga.

You're like, oh yeah, I had one in that too. But it wasn't really psychedelic. They do these breathing techniques, breath of fire. For a normal person, having an experience like that would be something they would never forget. Oh my my god i did yoga and i had this most incredible transcendent experience i left my body i became one with the universe for you you're like oh yeah i did that during yoga too so how did it happen how did it go down uh you know you have to follow these different breathing techniques and then hold yourself in some kind of a weird stress position

that's extremely exhausting and then your all of your muscles start to vibrate like I was on that machine the turbo sonic yeah like the turbo sonic so it's like a turbo sonic type effect I would say I would compare it more to the turbo sonic than to LSD Wow yeah that's interesting yeah what's the number one thing that if you had to do it again, you would approach with more caution? Is there any one psychedelic experience that would be like three for a loop? I mean, yeah, many have. But I think drugs like,

there certainly are drugs that are more friendly than others. And I think 5-MeO-DMT would be an example of something that has the capacity to be extremely unpleasant if you take it under the wrong circumstances. I had a friend completely flip out taking it because he had eaten and so he had to throw up and he got up to throw up and he got to the sink just in time to throw up but then he was just going crazy talking about rape talking about all kinds of crazy shit took his shirt off I had a friend lose consciousness and start vomiting

and look as if they had died I've seen and read about it my friend Doug Stanhope the comedian I thought we lost him he was going like this and little bubbles were coming out of the corner of his mouth and I'm like shit and I'm like, shit. And I'm hanging out with Doug,

and I'm just thinking all the chemicals that Doug throws into his body, cigarettes and beer and fucking, I mean, Doug shits on multivitamins. He's not taking a multivitamin. Get the fuck out of here. So I'm like, we might have redlined his body with this shit. I was like, he just took a big hit, and's he might he might be a goner but he came through it but it was terrifying for a couple of minutes yeah you did mouth to mouth didn't you i almost

did make it man i'm just i'm okay man make it make it dude so what were you saying about that just that you're asking me if there's one that I would approach with caution again in the future. 5-MeO you think would be the scariest one? Probably. I mean, there's also just isolated experiences that you can't necessarily connect with the substance. You know, in Picol, there's like, Ann Shulgin takes this oxygen-less mescaline derivative called desoxy and goes into a fugue state where she has a prevailing sense of unreality that lasts for months or something it just totally feels like she's in a dream but then i've had friends who also have used unusual substances that have been tested very much and have weird

reactions but every even if you ingest the same substance over and over and over again you really don't know exactly what's going to happen with the psychedelics. Taking the exact same quantity of synthetic psilocybin over and over and over again, a year apart every year, will feel completely different every time. So I'm always skeptical of people that feel as if they really know the effects of any substance, because it's always completely different. Well, DMT always seemed like there's so much coming at you, and it was coming at you for only like 15 minutes like it was almost impossible to bring back anything it was

almost impossible to record any of it yeah you know i mean to say that you know that experience my god you'd have to do that experience so many times just to get a general sense of just looking around and just relaxing and trying to absorb it all trying to like figure out what the fuck is this can i move this around myself like what is this is this is this an organism is this is this the universe is this the wiring of love what the fuck is going on here it takes so long like you do it and every time you do it you come back and then you go what the fuck was that and then you go back in again and it's still the same thing for 15 minutes it's just like it's too alien and too crazy there's no way you can ever really truly get a grip on it.

It's not like you can go on a vacation to DMT land. If you could take a trip or you could go somewhere for two weeks, and in that two-week time, the entire time, you would be going through a DMT trip. Right, yeah. Then maybe you would kind of get a grip on it. Then ayahuasca is some intermediate between smoking DMT. Not an intermediate, it's just the longest that you can have that experience. And even then, it's not as if lengthening the experience

gives you some greater understanding of what it is necessarily. I don't think it's really any less or more confusing than smoking it. It's just a longer duration. And then you have people like Gordon Todd Skinner who are hooking themselves up to IV bags filled with DMT. Right. Now, this is the guy that you wrote about in the – what is it called? Crystal? What is it?

Crystal Cole. Yeah, but your article was called High on Crystal? Yeah, High on Crystal is the name of the video. What a fucking crazy story. Yeah. And if you haven't read that, this is a must read. The other thing where you were interviewing Shulgin was amazing as well, but you have to see this. This girl was a stripper, and she meets this dude who's like this big time LSD manufacturer who has a fucking house in a silo and millions of dollars, right?

He's rich as fuck, and he's like the number one LSD guy in the country. Or so, I mean, it's all so unclear. And this is another example of a story where a lot of people talk about it with an enormous amount of confidence as if they have an understanding of what happened. They say, oh, it's all Crystal Cole's fault,

or it's all X's fault, or Y's fault. But if I've learned anything from researching it over the course of years, it's that absolutely nothing is certain Y's fault. But if I've learned anything from researching it over the course of years, it's that absolutely nothing is certain about the story. It's incredibly complicated and there's so much conflicting information for absolutely every element of the story that you have to be very careful about

talking about what happened with certainty. But there was this lab and they did lure Crystal Cole into it and she did become a part of it. She took DMT anally, dude. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah.

What a crazy girl. The shamanic colonic. Woo! It's just harder that she did it. Yeah, it's way harder that she did it. I don't want to know that fat, sweaty dude that's fucking her, stuck it up his ass.

I don't even care about that. I did it too, Joe. I'll show you how I did it. I don't care about that. It's an amazing story though, man. This girl escaped, right? And then the dude came after and kidnapped her

and some other dude. They escaped together to get away from this fucking crazy guy and it turns out the guy was working with the FBI or the DEA. So this number one LSD dealer was working with the DEA. Yeah.a yeah so this number one lsd dealer is working with the dea yeah and had been for quite some time damn yeah you know that reminds me of a story do you know

who whitey bulger is yes you know that story that yeah i'm from massachusetts that's right you're from massachusetts what an amazing story for people who don't know whitey bulger was the head of the irish mob and he was also working for the f. So if you turned Whitey Bulger in, Whitey Bulger would know from the FBI, first of all, they wouldn't arrest him, and then he would go kill you. And that's really how it ran. I mean, they really did run it like that. And you find that out, and you go, that is amazing. This is essentially along the same lines.

Yeah. And things like this have been happening for a long time, both in the US and internationally. Yeah, and things like this have been happening for a long time, both in the U.S. and internationally. There's the Iran Contras with this whole scandal about them pumping cocaine into ghettos in America to create the crack problem. I don't know that it's necessarily true, but it's a theory that a lot of people have.

And the same thing happened in South Africa with methacrylam, with quaaludes. There was this whole project called Project Coast where they were synthesizing massive quantities of MDMA and quaaludes in order to weaponize them for crowd control, supposedly. Holy shit. So then they were pumping them all into the streets. Wait a minute, MDMA weapons?

Yeah, as a crowd control. Oh my God. So you'd blast the crowd with ecstasy? Yeah, it's called Project Coast. What a brilliant idea. Where do I sign up? Dude, that's like my bit about how to calm down the Middle East.

I had a bit I did about sending crop duster planes just fucking cover the Middle East with chronic smoke for just weeks. And then come down. I mean, they did that as well, actually. Weaponized THC.

They did? At that... That's the craziest... Yeah, James Ketchum's lab. That's the craziest sentence ever weaponized thc yeah they called it like red oil or something that was like the code name for it what does it do you spray it on people and they become high yeah exactly that's hilarious edgewood arsenal that's the name of it um yeah and it probably i mean that was the it was thought of

as an improvement because it's a non-lethal incapacitating agent. And, you know, if you have a choice between shooting someone and dusting them with THC. That's amazing. I can't believe that was a real product. Absolutely, yeah. What else can they dust you with? MDMA, THC. And they try LSD as well. I mean, the problem is also that there are physical properties of these different drugs that limit their ability to travel through the air or to maintain their potency when they're laid on surfaces or on the soil. LSD is a pretty, it's not a stable molecule. So when they were trying to weaponize it, one of the problems was just it didn't aerosolize well, it didn't last on surface as well, and then they settled on BZ because they thought it was a better chemical weapon bz what is bz it's a anti-cholinergic drug and like jacob's ladder

the movie jacob's ladder is about yeah really yeah so they really were trying to make lsd and use it as a weapon absolutely yeah what was the idea that what was it going to do to the troops just make them disoriented and you just take them well yeah i mean can you imagine if you discovered if you didn't know anything about psychedelics at all and you discovered lsd and they they tried absolutely everything they could with it they tried to see if they could use it as a truth serum they tried to see if they could use it to you know they tried to both good and bad uses there were scientists using it to increase their intelligence and then there were people trying to yeah yeah, use it to make people insane, to reprogram people's brains.

That was the large part of MKUltra. It was about, you know, manipulating people's minds using psychedelics and sensory deprivation and things like that. And it was just crazy trial and error by murderers. Yeah. That's how they did it.

Trial and error by, like, Nixon's people. They should make it into a steam. Could you imagine, man? Trial and error with LSD by Nixon's people. Supposedly the word trip comes from FBI lingo from when they were doing the experiments. Really? Wow.

The scariest thing that I ever heard connected to any psychedelic experience was that Timothy Leary was connected, or not Timothy Leary, the Unabomber, ted kaczynski was connected to uh some studies at harvard and he had done like some classified lsd studies oh yeah and they you know they tweaked a lot of people's fucking heads yeah and then he went back to berkeley taught math for a few years till he got enough money to buy that cabin to take on the technology yeah they might have fried that dude's brain oh no they were lobotomizing people they were doing

just unbelievable i don't know if you're familiar with the book acid dreams we had they did every imaginable thing they'd hook up people to ivs with a stimulant like amphetamine in one wrist and you're the second person in a week that's recommended acid dreams oh i have to go get that yeah let's read the first half of it. So it's all about different experiences that they tried to impart on people with LSD. It's about all these

attempts to weaponize LSD and to use it as a truth serum and MKUltra. I'm buying it right now. Jesus. It's an old book. It's been around since the 80s. You've heard of, there was a, it's supposedly an urban myth, but a French town that they dosed with LSD.

Is that true? Yeah, it is true. So they did do that. I think that's true, yeah. You think they did it? And that's more recent research that came up in the last, maybe in the last five years. Yeah, I'd read it, and then I'd read a counterpoint that said it was bullshit

because you can't even get acid to work in bread like that, that it wouldn't maintain itself. Is that true? Yeah, it would not survive the heating, but they could have added it afterwards. And supposedly they, I mean, you know. So wouldn't they have to be, I mean, how would you go about getting that acid into the bread? You'd have to get aia guy who works there and just just fucks with everybody's bread and squirts it out go ahead eat that i guess so it doesn't seem

i mean you could spray bread with lsd yeah it was just it was an interesting argument when i when i heard because i had to assume that it was true and i was like saying like wow look what they found and then i saw this counterpoint to it and i was like oh okay is it possible that they could have created a more stable form of lsd or could it be some other psychedelic that would have similar effects that would be stable sure yeah absolutely i mean there's there's plenty of psychedelics that uh they were testing at that time that are more stable than lsd lc is unusually instable um but uh but yeah i think that i think that and you know they recovered some communication between two operatives and they said like

did you finish the mission with the diethylamide or something they didn't specifically say LSD but they used some abbreviated form so it's not conclusive but I think that there's strong evidence that that happened you would think that if they knew that it would have monstrous effects

they would have to know whether or not there's something that they can monetarily well I thinkous effects, they would have to know whether or not there's something that they can monetarily... Well, I think they didn't know. They wanted to know. Yeah, they wanted to experiment. What happens? I mean, it seems like such a powerful thing to have. You're going to find out what it's capable of. You're not going to just let it go. You're going to have to try to crack the code.

Right, and apparently they were spraying it into the New York subway system. Sure, yeah. That's crazy! Oh, they had an entire CIA whorehouse where they would take in... Oh, yeah, that's Operation Midnight Climax. That was in San Francisco and New York. They had two different whorehouses.

That's an amazing story. I love that story. Yeah. You gotta Google that, folks, because it's amazing. They ran brothels where they dosed dudes. Poor guy, just going in there for some sexual relief. Just something to just take his mind off his horrible day.

Would you like a drink, honey? He's like, yeah, just a Jack and Coke would do me great. Jack and Coke with acid! Oh, no! What the fuck, man? They really didn't know then. I mean, they probably had an idea, but there was these anthropological reports of what Indians do when they take peyote, but they had no idea how just some businessman... Well, apparently they started doing it once they stopped getting people that are willing to sign up for the voluntary tests. Too many people were getting fucked up by the tests.

So this is what I had read, is that they'd switched to dosing people when they ran out of volunteers. Huh. I would imagine they would have had volunteers, especially later on in these programs, when they were becoming publicly known substances. But yeah, a lot of the early research, there's a book called Drugs and Fantasy, where it's just people being dosed with PCP. I think the France one was like 51 or something like that, wasn't it? Yeah, it was quite a while ago.

It's really terrifying to think that they actually did do that. You believe it't it? Yeah, it was quite a while ago. It's really terrifying to think that they actually did do that. You believe it, though? Yeah, I do. This doused a whole town. Let's see what happens. Nuts! You've seen the videos of them dousing soldiers, right? I believe it was the English

army. They're just wandering around. It's amazing. Yeah, people died in that French town. It was... Didn't they commit suicide? People jumped off bridges. I mean, I guess it's the same kind of stuff that happens today with psychedelics, where certain people respond badly and want to jump off of things.

Do you support the theory that that was the cause of the Salem witch trials and all that stuff? That it was an ergot infection? Maybe. Do you know that story Maybe. You know that story? Do you know that story? I know that they claim that witch brooms were an implement for vaginally administering scopolamine and atropine and all the different deliriums. Jesus Christ.

Vaginally distributing with a pole? Yeah. That seems so crude and uncreative. That's one idea. But I don't know about ergot and witches no wow what is it um it's um it's it's um a fungus apparently oh yeah i know about and apparently it has some psychoactive effects yeah and they can get like a poisoning from it and give you some sort of a psychoactive effect and they thought it was responsible for witchcraft

yeah they thought it could have been responsible for people that thought they were experiencing magic and they were hallucinating and they were getting fucked up. And they could have started blaming it on women, which is what you do when you can't get laid. So you're all fucked up on this crazy bread, this ergot.

Apparently, have you never heard of ergot being psychoactive? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I know it is. What is the effect of ergot being psychoactive? Oh, absolutely. It is, yeah. What is the effect like? What is the effect of ergot like? Well, it contains just a variety of these different ergoline substances, but there's lysergic acid, amide, and they were used medicinally for a very long time.

That was the reason that LSD was discovered, is because they were using these isolating different alkaloids from ergot, sclerotia, and trying to see if they had some use in preventing postpartum bleeding in pregnant women. Wow. Yeah, so they weren't investigating psychoactive drugs. They had some interest in using them as potential analeptics,

like drugs to reduce fatigue, and that was this one nootropic hydrogene that was produced by Albert Hoffman in the course of that study. But they certainly weren't looking for anything like LSD. Wasn't LSD, yeah, there was some people that they were looking for something to make women more fertile or something along those lines. What the fuck did I read? Something that would encourage women to ovulate? Is that true? Did I read nonsense?

I don't know. I mean, it happens all the time. I hate that. I hate when I have a thought that I can't wrap my head around. There's too much goddamn information online. Yeah. But that happens all the time in medical research. So they'll be trying to create one thing.

Right. Wow. That's the story of Viagra. It's probably a drug to stop them bitching. but that happens all the time in medical research they'll be trying to create one thing right it's probably a drug to keep them to stop them bitching women yeah Brian that's what it is let me ask you this because you're a rational guy that does this stuff you're obviously very well read you know what you're talking

about clearly when you have an intense psychedelic experience and when you experience what seems to be something that is not you something that you're interacting with that does not appear to be the imagination it could be i don't know but a lot of people a lot of people have interesting opinions. A lot of people that have seen real intense psychedelic visions have very interesting opinions. And you might be the most psychedelically traveled person I've ever met in my life. So it's a perfect combination for you to be the guy that answers that question.

What the fuck is going on? When you have an intense psychedelic experience is it just chemicals perturbing your natural brain state what what do you think yeah i think it is but saying just chemicals is already kind of problematic because chemical everything is just chemicals right just chemicals is absolutely everything you ever experience and remember and have ever lived so everything is a chemical phenomenon consciousness is a chemical phenomenon the fact that we're able to perceive any of this that we're able to have this conversation right now it's all an amazing chemical interaction so i don't see the need to bring in any kind of supernatural

interpretation of the phenomena because it just is not necessary and the same reason that i don't see the need to bring in a supernatural interpretation of the universe or or of anything else or even ghosts you know you can look at if you look at a ghost haunting you can look at it two ways you can say oh this was a weird supernatural experience or you can say this was a really weird moment of psychopathology and what psychological mechanism made this person so afraid that they hallucinated and thought they heard something or thought they saw another being which is equally fascinating if not more fascinating or there's a dude who didn't get enough attention from his parents and pretends to

see ghosts is in the basement watching shit with night vision yeah that could be the case too yeah i mean i almost feel like that's the like the lesser interpretation it's the easy way yeah it's much easier to say oh they're aliens that's very simple right whereas if you actually wonder what is the true biochemical basis of this phenomenon it's an incredibly complicated question it won't have a simple answer right but that's why it's a worthwhile question do you believe that it's possible that taking something along the lines of dmt or any really intense psychedelic actually opens up some sort of a door to another dimension, another place, another existence, something you can't experience, another frequency, another station on the dial.

I think other dimensions of yourself, certainly. I don't know that there's another physical dimension that you're accessing. I don't see any reason to believe in that. I think there's enough inside of all of us to account for that. and to believe in that. I think there's enough inside of all of us to account for that. So you think that when you have this incredible, massive visual experience,

it's all an imaginatory thing. It's not like your consciousness travels to a place or tunes into a frequency. No, I don't think that. So you think it's just a chemical reaction. But an incredibly fascinating, complicated chemical interaction. Well, I'm absolutely not arguing with you. I'm not sold on what the hell it is. And I've had that argument with people that are really almost like, they almost proselytize about the experience to the point where they're

talking about it as if it's a religious definite. This is what happens, this is what happens. And I've always said, maybe it's possible, but it's also possible it's just crazy chemicals. But it doesn't mean it's not spiritual. If people have spiritual benefits, that's fine. It doesn't mean that they can't have a religious experience or they can't interpret it however they want. Sure, the interaction is beautiful. If the interaction is beautiful, it doesn't have to be otherworldly for it to be divine.

The interaction is beautiful. It could set you off on another direction, rewire your board. How many people have you ever talked to that have had a big psychedelic experience and totally stopped doing pills or totally stopped smoking cigarettes or just completely rewired their life because of one like emphatic psychedelic rewiring yeah absolutely absolutely and uh but yeah i just think that you think i'm sorry go ahead well anyway just the just chemical thing it's just something to be careful with when interpreting things because the sun is just chemical everything is just i'm too dumb to be

talking about anything in the first place so i'm just trying to skate by with the limited knowledge I have, but I want to pick your brain. So when you experience really profound wisdom in psychedelic states, where you have this almost feeling of being analyzed and seen through and shown all your flaws and all your craziness, and then you have this sort of reset thing, you kind kind of get a new fresh perspective of your place in the world and how you're what kind of an energy what kind of vibe you're putting out you think that that's all maybe internal that's all maybe imagination or is it is there the potential that there is some sort of a

another intelligence out there there's some sort of a thing that you can tune into, some sort of a... that we're connected to, but we don't have access on a regular basis. Is that possible, or is it silly? I don't think that it's... There's no reason for me to believe that that is possible. But I think that there's all kinds of things within us that we don't currently acknowledge and understand.

I mean, Shulgin, both Shulgin and Timothy Leary talked about this idea. You know, there's all this non-coding DNA that's sometimes called junk DNA or intronal DNA. And although it doesn't, they were probably wrong about this, it doesn't contain any kind of, like, instinctual evolutionary knowledge. But they were using it as an example. Like, what if all this non-coding DNA contains instinctual evolutionary knowledge but but there was they were using it as an example like what if all this non-coding dna contains instinctual ancient knowledge that we're able to access while we're on psychedelics um but maybe not with specifically with the non-coding dna but with parts of the brain who knows what sorts of things are stored within us that we don't know how to

access i think that this is actually a scientologist idea but i think that there's some truth to the idea that we remember absolutely everything that we experience, that it's all in there somewhere. You just need the right catalyst to remove that piece of information. Wow, that's amazing. Well, sometimes someone will bring something up, and then all of a sudden the file will open up in your head, and you're like, yeah, that guy, where is he?

What has he been doing? Like, boom, all of a sudden some person who you, I could have come up to you, do you know of Bruce blah, blah, blah? And you'd be like, no, I have no idea who that is. But then somebody shows you a picture and says, you remember this guy, second grade, remember? And you're like, whoa, yeah. Click, click, all of a sudden the file's open,

and you'll remember several experiences you might have had with that person. It's almost like we don't have enough room for all the shit we're seeing. We just put stuff in shitty hard drives and stuff it in the closet and then every now and then it comes out right I mean it's like an indexing problem the information is there but we don't always know how to access it you remember that show taxi I'm familiar with Mary Lou Henner remember the very attractive redhead woman that was on that show no she's got some crazy memory thing she was on Stern show she can

remember everything yeah she has an insane memory. She can tell you, like you can tell her, June 13th, 1976, what were you wearing? She's like, I was wearing a blue dress, and because I was on my way to this and that, and she can tell you what temperature it was outside. She can tell you everything. She remembers everything. Yeah. No, it is possible.

It's very much the size of a normal head. Those things are possible. We don't need giant brains. Yeah much in the size of a normal head. Those things are possible. We don't need giant brains. Yeah, in the size of a normal head, she's not even a nut. She's like a normal person. If you talk to her, she sounds normal.

It doesn't sound like some maladjusted person with some incredible gift. She's not like a rain man. She's like a normal human being. Yeah, and there's lots of these pneumonists that are capable

of those sorts of just mind feats. And one interesting thing about the pneumonists that are capable of those sorts of, of, uh, just mind feats. But, uh, and one interesting thing about the pneumonists is they all seem to have synesthesia, at least the ones that I've read about. And,

uh, so when they remember something, it's a visual memory and an auditory memory and all, and all their memories are cross-linked over multiple sensory modalities. So it's like, uh, and then, and then there's a lot of research in the 70s

about potentially using psychedelics as cognitive enhancers. And I think that's one way that they could function is by encouraging this type of synesthetic thinking where you're experiencing everything through multiple senses and indexing information through multiple senses simultaneously. What do you think about the controversial stoned ape theory? Oh i don't think there's any evidence for it but that's like a lot of terrence mckenna stuff i like it i think it's interesting it's fun and funny and sexy yeah it's good i'm glad that he said everything that he said i don't agree with it a lot of it but uh

some of it's a little wonky yeah a lot of it is but that's but so much fun yeah it's good it's all good yeah and even this stuff that's wonky But it's so much fun. Yeah, it's good. It's all good. Yeah. And even the stuff that's wonky, I'm always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that I just don't see how he's seeing it. And that's most science anyway. It's just people coming up with theories and models and trying to then prove the model. So he came up with a model or a theory that was wrong.

There's nothing bad about that. The stoned ape theory, is it wrong as far as the uh the time frame of of history and development like because that's what i've i think i read that i think that i read that he got his his errors wrong or something um i don't think there's any evidence that primates eat mushrooms maybe i'm wrong about that i don't know that i don't think that i think the evidence that he was relying on for that theory that uh either it was l LSD or psilocybin increases visual acuity, I don't think that that's been definitively proven.

The science, even though it was published in a prestigious journal at the time, I'm not sure that all that research was methodologically sound. You know how the study worked? You know what they did? They had like two sticks that were in parallel lines, and then they would have someone turning one stick on the other side extremely slowly to the point where they would not no longer be parallel and it was who could recognize it the first and the stone people recognized it more than the non-stone people

and so his uh his joke was that maybe being stoned you see the world better than it really is or better than you can when you're sober rather yeah i mean it hasn't really been studied very extensively so even though it was published it could have been horseshit like you would have to be replicated a few times yeah i think it would be yeah um i that seemed like a weird one too because like who's going to take a little dose you know if you're going to have mushrooms you're going to blast off i just i don't see it being like to the point where you're going to take like little tiny doses of it so you can see better you know if you have the blast off thing you're not going to be saying like well what if i just don't blast off what if i just nibble nibble nibble so i can barely feel it who's going to do that to go hunting that's ridiculous or maybe they didn't

even know that you could blast out for a while it's the same thing with salvia people didn't realize until the 90s until they started extracting it and making those extracts publicly available people didn't really know they you know they'd chew it and say oh yeah it is active but they couldn't really characterize the effect until they had concentrated the the salvinorin a it is a trip that they look like dinner plates it's a trip that they just grow out of the ground they look like hey look at me you know when mushrooms grow, there's a green field, this green grass, and this white thing just like, here I am. It's like asking you to eat it. I mean, if there's anything that's ever asked you to eat, it's a polite and subtle color. I'm white.

I'm so bland. Don't even worry. Just come over and take a bite. I mean, and the idea that they might have actually not even been from this planet. They might have come here in asteroidal impacts. Sure, yeah. That's my favorite one. That's my favorite sexy theory.

Yeah. There's another mechanical theory, right? He supported it. The idea that he said, you would know this, he said that psilocybin, there was no other plant that had the four in the phosphorus position, or no other life form fungus that had that, that was the only one? Yeah, the four hydroxylation is unusual. There's a lot of five in the plant kingdom, but the four is unusual. Are there other ones besides? but the four is unusual.

Are there other ones besides? Not that I can think of off the top of my head. So his theory was... There's a bunch in mushrooms. There's Baocistin and Norbaocistin, things like that. His theory was that that had come from an asteroidal impact, that spores could survive in a vacuum, and that we know the building blocks of life and amino acids possibly came here from outer space.

Yeah. Maybe mushrooms. Yeah, that was his idea. When you eat them, they're communicating with you. Yeah, they're a guide. They'll give us plans. Yeah, oh yeah, he would buy the guide, totally. That's what made him write the Time Wave Zero

novelty theory. They told him that he had to do it. Could you imagine how annoying it would be every time you went on a trip? You got some fucking alien mushroom people telling you you got to write a theory. You got to write some biological theory. Brian, you could not

look any more bored. Who's listening? From now on, four hits and that's it. I'm cutting you off in four. You went to five and you can't handle five. You think you can. So, we got over the stone-daped theory. What else did I want to ask you? Alien life, yes or no?

Again, I mean, all these things, there just isn't enough evidence either way. I know that's a boring answer in some ways, but I just... It's always huge news when they find an extrasolar planet that might be able to support Earth-like life. But so far they've never found anywhere in the known universe a single planet that we could live on without a suit for a minute. So that's not really that encouraging ultimately.

But then when you also factor in the enormity of the universe, then of course I think it's possible. Absolutely, I think it's possible. I just don't see at this specific moment in history any reason to think that in the part of the universe that we've observed there's any life. What do you think of the theory that life does not come here in a physical sense, but comes here through your mind, and that what psychedelics are is really like gateways to communicate with other life forms, and that we're hung up on the idea

that something has to actually be right there to talk to you. Wait, repeat this theory? The theory is that psychedelics open up some sort of a gateway that allows you to communicate with aliens. That's the only aliens that there are. The aliens only exist in this... When you take a psychedelic, you can communicate with it. You can enter into some sort of a frequency that the alien is on.

That's the only way they get here. They don't get here through metal ships. That's all just craziness. Alien contact only comes through psychedelic use. I mean, it's an interesting idea. To what end? When you have your hand like this, it's very dismissive. That's an interesting idea.

I believe, I forget whose idea that was, but there was a, god damn it. Wouldn't the aliens be bored by whatever they watch when they're in our bodies? I don't know. It might have been McKenna's idea as well. He had a lot of nutty ones about mushrooms. I'm pretty sure it was him. But his idea was that it was an alien life form, and that that's how you would communicate with it.

He didn't think it was going to come here in metal ships. He thinks it was going to come here through the frequency that you would achieve in a heavy-duty psychedelic state. He believed he was really encountering something else yeah you don't believe that you don't know you believe that it's just just the deepest facets of your imagination or is there a kashuk records like do you believe in any of that what is that the kashuk kashuk kashuk or kashuk i don't know the idea that there's knowledge and information out there and you just tune into it and that there's a record

of information that like literally exists that you can just tune into and this is where creativity comes from yeah in creativity when you achieve the zen state of being completely in the moment these ideas would just come to you the idea is that these ideas are not just the firing of your synapses and the accumulation of your life experiences but in fact you are pulling from a well of information that's out there that you can't quite recognize on a regular basis, and that there's knowledge inherent to the world. And I think it's called the Akashic or Akashic Records. It's the idea behind it.

It's almost like taking account to, it's almost like a crude way of explaining why we don't understand creativity while you know we don't understand the state of mind to achieve the proper creativity is like this zen accepting sort of like when i'm in the zone like when you're writing something you know how you have great writing i've read a bunch of shit you you write some really beautiful lines you know how sometimes they just sometimes you're banging them out but sometimes they're just flowing it's almost like they're coming out of you like you you go into like this zen state and like oh that just came to me like here's this thing some people believe that the what you're doing is by being really creative you're tuning in to intelligence you're tuning in to intelligence. You're tuning in to ideas.

And that the human body and its managing its consciousness is really just managing a radio. Right. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of that. But I find all of those ideas kind of... Hokey? Well, just ultimately disempowering because they de-emphasize the agency that human beings have in creating.

We can't create. Our brains are not sufficient to create. We need to tune in to some kind of a record that creates for have in creating. We can't create. Our brains are not sufficient to create. We need to tune into some kind of a record that creates for us. It's sort of a religious idea as well, that there's a god that gives us some kind of power. I think that's a pattern in a lot of these ideas, is that they try to remove power from the individual

and place it in some kind of intangible realm that we can access through being pious or through following some set of rules. But ultimately, I don't want to buy into any of those ideas. Right. I find that I completely agree with you. And that I think that a big part of it is that people do better with creative endeavors when they're humble. And so it's sort of a way of not taking credit for what they're doing and just tuning into the right creative frequency. And sometimes that creative frequency, the best way to do it is just give it up to a higher power.

Sure, and that's not to say that it doesn't help people in the same way that religion, even if it's wrong, helps an enormous number of people. Well, I've always said that it's a great operating system for a lot of people. And it really does enhance their life. There's a lot of people that, for whatever reason, I don't know whether it's they're uninspired or whether they have brains that don't function at the right RPMs or whatever it is. But if you give them some sort of an ideology, they can live a happy life. some sort of an ideology they can live a happy life but if you left them alone in the sea of doubt and in the unknown they could go down any path they could they could wind up a mess they could wind up depressed they can wind up fucked up

they can wind up in a cult you give them a happy religion they'll just live 70 happy years die be happy that they know they're gonna go to heaven and everything's cool. It's almost like it's an effective operating system. And at the end, we're really not exactly sure how much of this fucking thing we're controlling with our mind. We're really not. There's a lot of doubt on that. There's a lot of doubt as to how much of life is truly random, and how much of it is really created by the energy you put out, your imagination, your actions and your deeds.

What the fuck is really going on? Is it 100% physical or is there some manifestation that the imagination takes part in? We don't really necessarily know. There's people that always good things are constantly happening to them and they're always in great moods and they seem to perpetrate that same energy forward and you know you look at people like that and you wonder like how much of that is is them how much of that have they just figured out how to roll this thing and figured out how to create reality have they figured out how to just ride this thing correctly is it possible yes it is right absolutely yeah you're one of the most experienced guys i think

i've ever come across as far as altered states of consciousness. And you're not an old guy. How old are you? What are you, 30? 24. 24! Jesus Christ, son. I was going to say you're 30.

You're a hard 24, kid. Have you seen him on the Apple commercial? You were really young in that one. Somebody just sent me that. That's crazy. Dude, you're way too smart to be 24. That's scary. It is.

That's fascinating, man. When I was 24, I spoke in grunts for the most part that's amazing man wow you um how yeah you've you must to be the most experienced person i've ever met right i don't know anybody more experienced than this guy i don't know i actually don't know that all the stuff he's really done what do you take out of it man do you are you happy that you had all those experiences that changed you who you are absolutely yeah yeah i think it's good i think just experimentation in general is important can everybody handle it probably not no probably not right probably not but how do you fix that that's a very very complicated question it's a good one though

it is you got a problem some guy's a good worker right i, because you've got a problem if some guy's a good worker. Right, I think it requires... Johnny was good with the landscaping business, so that fucking Hamilton Morris caught him on acid. Sure, yeah, and I've had close friends that dropped out of society for whatever reason, because they started to find it pointless, and it's difficult to argue with that if someone really genuinely feels that way. But I think it's sort of an infantilizingizing generally disempowering idea in psychiatry and throughout society that we are not in control of ourselves we go we see a doctor the doctor is the expert on our mind and our body and they tell us what's wrong they know us better than we know ourselves even after only talking to us for five minutes and so if you go to a psychiatrist and you

say I'm having trouble working and may may be depressed, I may have ADHD, what do you think I should do? I think that Adderall would help me. That's immediately suspicious because you think you already know too much about what you need. They want you to go in as an infant so they can tell you what you need. I believe that there's some emphasis or there's some impact that the imagination and your thinking and your energy has on life but i also believe there's a lot of random shit too i don't think it's an either or i think it's a combination of you interacting with all these other people that are also creating

their own realities at the same time and that you can have you know you can all tune into a good frequency and perhaps you know create a good community and perhaps, you know, create a good community. And I think that's what people try to do in tribes and shit like that. But at the end of the day, you're still dealing with random shit. Like the idea that you blame people for fucking diseases or for being attacked by barbarians. You know, was that in the secret? You know, did the secret work back then? Did they manifest these barbarians to come over the hills and chop people up with swords back swords back in the conan days no right this you can't say it's completely nobody would ask for that nobody

would create that in their own imagination for their for themselves so it's not it's not that you are completely in control of your destiny but it seems like you have at least some sort of influence with energy and with your imagination and with, you know, the things that you create and the environment that you set up. I think that's one of the most important things that I've ever learned from psychedelics. Absolutely, yeah. And just being in a mindset to try new things, whatever, whether they're chemical or experiential or whatever. But cautiously try, too.

Cautiously. I mean, obviously you didn't find out all this information about it after you've tried all these things. No. You knew that going in. Yes. What's the one thing that you ever did where you're like, oh boy, here we go. In what way? And like, this might be a slippery one. Oh God. A slippery one. I mean, I've had a few slippery ones in my day, but I think a lot of the really potent psychedelics have the ability to induce terror if you're too high of a dose. I've had that happen with both DMT and psilocybin. So, just so many, so many different occasions. So, just so many, so many different occasions. I've never had anything where I, well, actually I have.

Yes, I have. I've had a few kind of close to what I would consider overdose of psychedelics where the dose is just so high that I think there might be some physical toxicity. Whoa. But with those sorts of cases, it's very difficult to differentiate between what is motivated by fear. You know, a lot of people, even when they're sober, they'll panic or be uncomfortable and think they're having a heart attack, but it's just a panic attack or it's not even a panic attack. The mind is so informed by the body, especially in a psychedelic state,

that it's very difficult to say what, if you're drinking ayahuasca and suddenly your heart starts beating fast, is your heart beating fast because you're scared or are you scared because your heart is beating fast and which do you concentrate on the heart or the fear first in order to calm yourself down wow yeah and you might be thrown a puzzle that you can't wrestle with yeah and it just runs you over it's just too much and you're just there in utter fear and terror until it slowly leaves your system yeah i overdosed when i ate that one bad shrimp chirping you know like six months ago i mean i and you're just there in utter fear and terror until it slowly leaves your system. Yeah. I overdosed when I ate that one bad shrimp chirp like six months ago. I mean, I couldn't walk.

My legs would not work. They were failing. Well, yeah. He got over seven grams. That's a lot. Too much. And that's just a guess that was over seven. It could be way more than that.

Yeah, you're silly. You went too hard, son. It's not necessary. Yeah. Did you come back well? Or did you come back fucked up? It took me a while, like a day, a good 24 hours after until I felt 100%. But didn't you learn something from the experience?

Yeah, my bathroom was like Tron, the original Tron. If you two had a conversation, I'd'd say which one of these is 24 and which one of these is almost it's almost 50 yeah how old are you now 37 37 37 he's 37 and you're 24 you see that and he votes too i took molly the other day and uh molly molly that's the mdma yeah and it was uh very i've noticed something recently doing shrooms and and it happened for some reason with molly this last time so it makes me wonder how much of it was really molly but uh i could see so much better when i'm on a psychedelic like like it seems like my eyes work with you know because your pupils are bigger so you're probably looking more.

Do you have bad vision? No, I mean, like, brighter. I mean, everything's a lot brighter, though. Like, I can almost see in the dark. Yeah, and it makes me, and I had this thing I was thinking of, like, it would be weird if, like, all the shit that you see when you're shrooming is there all the time, but your eyes adjust to this certain lightness

or this certain level of being open that you see it more when you're on shrooms. So like when you're seeing like you're looking at your hand and you're seeing like this crazy shit all around it, like these like vines that are growing over it, what if like that shit's there all the time, but you're just like focusing in on that layer of, you know, brightness? Hamilton Morris, we throw to you.

Is that possible? You're the only one here qualified to answer that. I would say, if I had to answer for you, poppycock. It was just one of the things I thought of while on Molly because I was looking like, geez, I can see in the dark right now. Before he answers, let's make a bet.

I say he says it's bullshit. What do you say? It's just a theory. I know. No one knows. I would probably say it's your. What do you say? It's just a theory. It's a what if. I know. No one knows. I would probably say, no, it's your brain just shutting down, going crazy. You got to support your own thinking. No, I'm just saying it's a what if.

I'm not fucking subscribing to it. I'm just saying, what do you think he would think? I'm not saying he's even right. I would say he would be exactly what he says on everything. It's all bullshit. He takes the safe road,

which is what I do. I'm not going to fucking... Well, he takes takes the scientific right i take the scientific route way more i go angels and unicorns i'm looking for bigfoot bro i'm always looking for bigfoot but i know i'm looking for bigfoot i know i really want bigfoot to exist but i don't think he does right but i really want him to you know what i mean right i mean and you don't see any nothing exists in the first place none of this is colored or has any nothing actually looks the way we perceive it reality is a sensory phenomenon and so to say what things are actually like is already problematic because it's a sensory experience so how you yeah that is fascinating isn't it it's almost impossible for people to

really wrap their heads up that your mind puts that red in that picture. Your mind puts the dark in someone's hair. Your interpretation of the world. You know, and then that's the total stolen talk. I wonder, man, if, like, the color blue... Like, what does it look like to you, man? When you see the sky,

what does it look like to you? We really don't know. We do know that it is different for some people. Really? Yeah. How different? Well, I mean, there's this, you know, color blindness. There's issues of, like, linguistic relativity and color naming.

There's, like, been a lot of scholarly research into the issue where certain primitive societies have fewer names for colors, and so they'll only have black and white, and that will encompass, black will encompass, like, red and blue, and white will be green. Yeah. So it's not cross-culturally defined in any way dude it must suck to get your car painted there get your car painted in the jungle

i asked for blue this is red you fuck they're like same shit that should be the end of the podcast right there. We just all lost complete, total enthusiasm. I don't even know how we got onto the subject of the color. Where'd that come from? He was saying that he saw vines crawling all over his arms. Oh, yeah, the interpretation of things around us. I love Maui, though, and I think it's one of the most beautiful drugs ever. Is it illegal?

It's totally illegal. But, Joe, have you done it? No, I've only done MDMA and I only did it once. You take your wife to Hawaii. You sit on the beach and you do two each. And you just sit there and you will fucking have the most beautiful time in the whole entire world. And you're going to have a reset. You're going to be so, you and your wife are going to connect in a way that you've never had since you've started dating.

And it's going to be amazing. I highly recommend it more than anything. Wow. You're like a little love bug. I love it. It's the best. You're like a little love bug. You're so happy now.

Get pure Molly. You will have the time of your life. Hamilton Morris, you're a young fellow. How do you find a mate that can deal with any of this talking and conversation? How do you, at 24 years old, guy or girl, I don't know if you're gay or straight, but how do you find anybody to hang out with that you would, you know, I mean, at your age, man?

Do you start off looking in trees, or do you just... 24-year-old chicks, man, I'll tell you right now. It's going to be a tough conversation at dinner. Yeah, well, I don't know very many people that are interested in the scientific element. I have a few close friends who are scientists who i talk with about this kind of stuff so when you date how do you you know i mean what did you do at work today and you started talking about felnil alanines and all this different crazy shit do you have girls do their

their eyes glaze over or do they uh do they look to you for guys mean, it depends on what their academic background is. But yeah, I would say most people are not interested in that sort of thing unless you... I'm trying to phrase this as nice as possible without actually saying it, but you must get mad amounts of stoner pussy. At least thrown at you. At least. Come on, man.

You're an online stoner hero type dude. Those chicks must launch it at you. You don't use their Twitter enough. I don't, man. You're an online stoner hero type dude. Those chicks must launch it at you. You don't use the Twitter enough. I don't, yeah. Maybe today's the day that I start. Hamilton Morris, one letter, one name. Yeah. No space.

Yeah. He's got one tweet. But if you're going to have one tweet, this is the fucking tweet to have. What was your tweet? You have one amazing tweet. What is your one tweet? Do you remember? Not off the top of my head.

It's a pastor quote. Come on, one second. I'm trying to find it, man. Brian, why don't you talk while I'm trying to find this? Hey, please vote for me on the Shorty Awards. Go to desklaw.tv and at the top of it, click on vote for me. I'm getting beat by a wwe wrestler that has half a million hits so i won't win but it just makes me feel happy that i'm in second place at

least hamilton mars only has one tweet and this is it in the realm of scientific observation luck is granted only to those who are prepared it's romantic you're gonna have one quote by the way i think that quote's kind of hacky because There's a couple versions that are out there. Somebody fucking ganked this quote. Who? Luck is only granted to those prepared. Success is when luck meets preparation. That's the oldest quotation ever.

They just doctored that shit up and made it fancy. Yeah. They made it sound a little profound, a little more profound, but really, basically, they doctored an old saying up those fucks but if you're gonna have one quote that's it dude and i like how you didn't even use quote marks or you did use a period though you used a period all right yeah maybe you should attribute it to someone but it's easy enough yeah they should figure it out right you? You didn't write that yourself, did you? No, no, no. Burn out, then fade away. Like Def Leppard?

I don't know. Did you say that? Hamilton Morris, this has been the worst podcast we've ever had, but it's only because of us. Really, you were amazing. Every time we called upon you, your questions were great. We just got Brian a little too stoned. Hey, it's all my fault. I got a little too stoned, and it threw us off a little.

But it was fascinating, man. You don't have to turn the music on. I didn't mean to do it that way. Let him pump up his shit. I know. I was going to put it in the back. So if people want to watch any of your stuff, it's Hamilton's Pharmacopia. That's right.

That's what it is. In Vice Magazine. In Vice Magazine. Hamilton's Pharmacopia on VBS. Is there any one site that's the best place to access all your stuff? Vice is the main place. I usually post new things on VBS. Is there any one site that's the best place to access all your stuff? Vice is the main place. I usually post new things on my blog. Also, Harper's Magazine.

So they should Google it, right? Yeah. But not today, because Google's down, bitches. Is it? No, it's up. Wikipedia's down. Wikipedia's down. The protesting SOPA.

Yeah. They're trying to take it, folks. They know. They know the end is near. Good for them. They know. Good for who, bro? People are rising up big corporations like google and uh wikipedia for uh standing up for this shit well

i heard it's dead i heard the the bill is dead as it stands but they're going to try to rework it i don't know it's terrifying this is about it is it must terrify you i mean you you're on the internet constantly and you're doing illegal shit yeah i mean it could have some implications yeah the idea that they can just come in and take down your site at their discretion and this is right constantly, and you're doing illegal shit. Yeah, I mean, it could have some implications. Fuck yeah. The idea that they can just come in and take down your site at their discretion, and this is right after the NDAA, National Defense Authorization Act, passed, which is another terrifying thing. They can just arrest you.

They don't have to have a warrant. It's just, we're in weird times, man. They're coming after your dual cassette recorders, guys. They're coming after your flashlight. So buy another one. Go to JoeRogan.net and click on the link for the flashlight. Answer the code name Rogan, and you'll get 15% off the number one sex toy for men. Hamilton Morris, if you want, I can have some shipped to you.

You don't have to say anything on air. Just wink twice. You're good. Okay, shipment on the way. No worries. It's an effective masturbation product, ladies and gentlemen. It's a weird subject. It's much like psychedelics.

It's really underappreciated. It's physical maintenance, I think. I think it's good. The body needs to be able to breathe as often as possible. That's too distracting. You don't want to involve all these different people in your life and have sex with them. Get yourself a flashlight, kids.

It's not that expensive. They last a long time, as long as you don't do what Brian does with them and fist them. Turn them inside out. A lot of shows going on. Anyway, go to JoeRogan.net and click on the link for the fleshlight. Enter in the code name Rogan and you'll get 15% off your number one flex dollar from that. Thank you to Onnit.com, O-N-N-I-T, makers of Alpha Brain, New Mood, Shroom Tech Sport, Shroom Techroom tech immune all that good shit if you go to joe rogan.net

click on the alpha brain logo enter in the code name rogan you get 10 off thank you hamilton morris for coming down and please start using twitter you're too fucking cool to not be on twitter we want to pump you up please follow hamilton morris h-a-m-i-l-t-O-N-M-O-R-R-I-S, on Twitter. And make this motherfucker tweet. You need to contribute, bro. You're a part of the hype. You're a valued member. If people want to watch his stuff, any of his stuff, just Google Hamilton Morris.

That's the simplest way. Because Vice, they do awesome shit, but it's crazy trying to go to that site and navigate it and try to find anything. If anybody wants to come to Chicago tickets are almost sold out that is the 27th and it's with me, Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell that's the Chicago Theater Friday

January 27th that's going to be fun as fuck because then the next night it's UFC on Fox Hamilton thank you very much for being on one of our most awkward podcasts ever but you were a delight to talk to. You're a wealth of information and a cool motherfucker. Thanks a lot, buddy. Thanks for having me.

All right, folks. We will see you next week. That's it for this week. Friday, Ice House. I've got to get some fucking sleep. Oh, yeah. And the Ice House. I've had no sleep for days.

I've never been more out of it doing a podcast ever. My little girl's been throwing up. No sleep at night. And coming from Brazil, I'm a mess. So if I sound half retarded today, I will bounce back. I promise you. Next week, I'll be strong. I'm going to take some Alpha Brain and some fresh squeezed juice. I want to get the party started.

So we'll see you guys next week. I think Greg Fitzsimmons is doing it. Sweet. And I think Brian Cowan must do it as well. And we're going to do Brian's as well. Yeah, we have a new podcast starting Friday, Brian Cowan's new podcast pilot. It starts at 7 p.m. Pacific,

and then right after that we have an Ice House Chronicles. Yeah, we put the tickets on sale for Friday night. Tickets are on sale right now at icehousecomedy.com, and it might have Burt Kreischer, and it might have Duncan Trussell. It's going to be a big surprise, but it definitely has Brian Cowan. It's whoever's in town.

All of our friends are in town. We just decided to do this show yesterday. So if the tickets are not on sale, they will be soon. So that's Friday night, 10 p.m.? 10 p.m. 10 p.m. Podcast starts at 9. All right.

And then the podcast, Ice House Chronicles, you can watch it here on Ustream.tv. Or you can get it on iTunes, but only on the Death Squad label. So you have to subscribe to Death Squad to get that. And there's a lot of other cool podcasts on that. Sam Tripoli's show, The Naughty Show. One of the funniest naughty shows I've ever had last night with the Penthouse Pet 2012.

Oh, and Brad Williams. Yeah, we're going to get that podcast too. Okay, we'll get him on. We'll get him on. if he can get permission. All right. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.

Hamilton, smile. Smile for the people. Thank you.