The Joe Rogan Experience - #1787 - Dakota Meyer

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

Dakota Meyer is a retired United States Marine, veteran of the War in Afghanistan, and Medal of Honor recipient. He is co-author, with Robert O'Neill, of "The Way Forward: Master Life's Toughest Battles and Create Your Lasting Legacy."

the Joe Rogan experience Dakota what's happening brother how are you good to see you what's up man you wrote a book man I did I did with with Rob O'Neill the way forward yeah master life's toughest battles and create your lasting legacy what uh, uh, what drove you to this? You know, like, I, I think that there was like a point in my life to where I kind of just, you know, kind of put it all together, like wanting to help people, you know, like the way forward. There's always a way forward. You know, my, my life's been such a shit show so many ways. Um, and obviously Rob's has too. That was one thing we could relate on is like,

you know, we both came from two different places, did two different things, but like, there's always a way forward, you know, focusing on what matters. Was there a time in your life where you didn't think there was a way forward? Were you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wrote about that in my first book about, you know, a time that, um, I just didn't know if there was a way forward, but you know, what, what I, what I learned was is like, you know, when you don't see a way forward, it's because your purpose is yourself and it's not other things, right. People that people that are lost, or I felt like when I'm lost is when I'm too busy focusing on things for me and my,

my purpose is me. And it's not like the things that are around me, the things that matter. Like in what way, what do you mean? You know, like my kids, like my friends, my circle, right? Like doing something bigger than me, like focusing on something that's, that's bigger than, than just, you know, trying to survive. Like, okay, well I'm going to go pay my bills. Well, that's not really a, a great purpose. Right. Right. But, but finding something bigger that you could believe in, like, you know, being a firefighter or being a good dad or, you know, just trying to have goals of fitness or start a company or all those things, right? So did you feel like at one point in time

where you were only thinking about yourself and you didn't see there was any point to it all? Yeah. I mean, I got out of the Marine Corps and I got out and it was all about me, right? It's like, oh, you know, I served this country. This country owes me now. Because, look, when you're in the military, the whole time you're told you're a hero. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, oh, everybody's just, you're just greater people, you know told you're a hero. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, everybody's just, they're, they're, you're just, you're just greater people, you know, or all these things you sacrifice for this country, this country owes you. And I hate that word owes, right? Like owes. The only thing we owe is the bank. Um, but you know, I, that, that was where I was at and I was walking around blaming all my problems on, you know, well, you know, I'm drinking all the time. I wasn't alcoholic, but just drinking all the time trying to, you know to argue it? Um, you know, and I was surrounded by that. I was, I was the victim. I made myself the victim of, of life. And, you know, at that point was where I got the lowest, right? Like I, I just couldn't, you know, cause at some point, like people are going to, they're going to try to help you. Like, that's the great thing about the world is people are going to help you. People want to help, but they can only help you so far.

Like they're not going to drown with you, especially when you're not choosing to get better. And that was where I was at, you know, like just drinking all the time, you know, being, I was, I was an asshole. Like, I mean, I'm still an asshole, but just a different way. You know, um, I was an asshole and just, you know, blaming, blaming the world for my problems when really I was the problem, you know, I just didn't my problems when really I was the problem. You know, I just didn't have anything bigger than me. And I would surround myself by people who wanted to coddle me, right? Like, oh, Dakota, you know, what you've gone through, you know, you deserve.

You know, it's okay. This is normal for what you've gone through. And it's like, no, no, no. Like, that's what America is about is the comeback story, right? Like everybody's going to go through their problems. Everybody's going to have their lumps, but America, they, they want the comeback story. You know, what was it that made you turn around? Like, did you have a moment? Did, is it something you read? Is it something you learned? No, I, um, you know, so I was living at my dad's house.

I was living with my dad. My dad's just an incredible man. And one night I was out drinking somewhere, and I was driving home on this road, and I just seen, like, the pain I was causing the people around me, right? Like, my dad was never going to kick me out of the house, but, I mean, I just seen, like, the disappointment, right in people uh that I was that I was bringing and um I was driving down the road one night and I just said look this is it like I'm done I pulled over at my buddy's shop uh he had a welding shop and I because I knew that I didn't want to inconvenience anybody to have to well where's

he at this huge search I knew he would be in at eight or six, six to eight in the morning. He comes in every day. Um, I pulled over and, uh, parked right in front of the bay door and, uh, pulled my gun out and I stuck it to my head and squeeze the trigger. And like somebody had unloaded that gun. Uh, I'd shot it that day. Actually, I'd shot this Glock 40 that day. Um, and it was the loudest click I've ever heard in my life and probably the quickest sobering thing that I've ever seen. Holy shit. Um, and so I sat there and I, told myself that if I'm going to continue to live life like I am and waste it, then I know how to load this gun. I need to just rack it back and get it over with. But I just made this deal with myself that if I'm going to put the car in drive

and go home, that this is not an option ever again. And God gave me a different, had a different outcome for me, and I drove home. And ever since then, I mean, look, I think we all go through moments where we don't know. There's always these moments where we don't know if we can get out of it. Right. Like that's normal. Yeah. But for that to stay that way is not normal. Right. And that was, you know, I, I, I like slowed up on drinking. I didn't stop. Obviously I didn't really slow up as where I needed to be until I had my child um but I got a lot better right I started surrounding myself with different people

people who weren't going to buy in and support my bullshit you know so that moment when the gun went click like in your mind is there like a clear change between before that moment and after that moment? Was there like a, I mean, was it a, was there a, was it like a realization? Was it, was just like, you feel like you got a second chance at life? Like, yeah, I mean, look, I've, yeah. I mean, I've been in so many situations where I was supposed to die or I thought I, like, there's been at least five or six situations where it wasn't that I thought I was going to die. It was that I knew I was going to die. And. The combat situations.

The combat situations, right. It's a totally different experience, though. You know, this one was like as I get like like why like you know and I think at that moment I realized that I was only feeling sorry for myself because if my teammates like if losing my teammates you know it I mean it sucks like it still sucks like I I sometimes I don't even know if I have even came to the realization that I'll never see my guys again. And I don't know why. It's kind of weird, but, you know, I don't know why.

But I think that, like, I just realized that I need to live a life. If I don't want to do it for myself, then I need to live a life that's worthy of their sacrifices. Right? Like, how stupid is it? How selfish of it, of me? sacrifices. Right. Like how stupid is it? How selfish of it, of me, someone who has seen what the cost of freedom is, or someone who has seen the sacrifices that people have gave, who don't get it, don't get it tomorrow. They gave their today so that we can have a tomorrow. And how selfish of it is for me to walk around and, and, and, you know, be a drunk asshole. And that's the

representation that I'm going to represent their sacrifices. Like's it's just it's such a um it's just not right and that was at that moment that all that started to come together that no no i just feel sorry for myself not them they don't feel anything so i'm feeling sorry for myself and And as I'm doing that, I'm wasting days that, that they, I guarantee they wish they had. Yeah. Um, it's such a common problem with veterans. I mean, I believe at one point in time, I don't know what the status is now, but at one point in time, more veterans had died by suicide, um, in Afghanistan than had died from combat. suicide in Afghanistan than had died from combat. Yeah.

I mean, I've lost more guys since being home to suicide than I ever lost in combat. Let's see what that number is. See if you can find. I think just Google more veterans die from suicide than combat. Because I think that was what they were trying to drill into people was that asking people to go over there and fight and to see the horrors that they see and to see friends die and loved ones die and then ask them to come back and have life just be normal. Look at this.

Four times as many troops and vets have died by suicide as in combat. Holy shit. So this is not an uncommon problem, it's a giant problem. I don't know what kind of training they give you when you're about to leave the military or when you're returning from combat. But do they try to give you any sort of an understanding of how to cope with this kind of stuff? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's obviously gotten a lot better, right? I mean,

it was more of the tough love. I mean, the more that mental health is accepted. I mean, look, I mean, to be honest, I mean, as men, 10, 15 years ago, it wasn't something, it was looked at as weak, right? You didn't hear a lot about it. It seems like somewhere along the line, I mean, I don't know what the statistics show, but it seems like somewhere along the line it became way more common to know people that kill themselves. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I didn't know about it until, obviously obviously the military, right. I mean, I went in at 17 and,

um, but no, there wasn't a lot of talk about it. And, um, you know, I, the more, the more we were in combat, the more you started to see it. Right. And, uh, yeah, I mean this thing of PTSD, but I mean, PTSD is something that something that the world suffers from. It's not something that's only to veterans, right? Don't you think that veterans have it in a larger experience if you experience combat? I mean, the amount that they have. I mean, so many guys that I know, like yourself or many of my other friends that are veterans, they just have memories that they can't shake.

friends that are veterans they just have memories that they can't shake i think that uh you want to talk about the group of people that have it the worst is our first responders cops cops firefighters emts like like i the stuff that i've seen as being a firefighter um sometimes like combat was, it's no comparison. Really? Yeah. I mean, and so, you know, and over there, the mind, like, you know, the mindset's different, right? Like, like, I mean, most of the people that we were part of, like, we were there to fight, right? So it's, it's like, it's, it's almost like, you know, watching someone in the octagon fight versus watching someone on a street fight, you know, get jumped, right? It's a, it's, it's almost like, you know, watching someone in the octagon fight versus watching someone on a street fight, you know, get jumped. Right. It's a different ballgame. And, you know, everybody's suffering. Right. I mean, and so I think that like the mental health aspect. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge, huge thing.

But I also think that the mindset, the approach that we take on it is important as well. Right. Like, like I don't need to, um, I don't need to, I don't need to be coddled, right? Like, okay, I have, I have PTSD check. Um, but that doesn't give me like a card to blame. Well, why I'm an alcoholic or why I'm not getting help or or why I hit my wife or why I'm in fights you know I mean like well let's get help like like let's get help and let's want to get better you know there's just a fine line of of of using it as an excuse versus as what's what's real on it right and no one identify that, but it's like at some point you have to look in the mirror and, I mean, look, Jocko talks about extreme ownership, right?

You have to look in the mirror, and at the point that you can take responsibility for your actions, you can then change them. So when you think about PTSD and you think about the effect that it has on you, um, is being a firefighter, does it compound all of the PTSD that you experienced as a combat veteran? I mean, does it, is it? Yeah, I don't know. Like I was at, this was a conversation I was having this morning. I don't know. Like, um, for me, I've changed my mindset. Um, for me, I mean, there are some stuff that bothers me. I mean, obviously I look every time it changes you. Um, or for me it does. And, but now I look at it, like when I come in and, and, and I'm with, I'm there when somebody,

you know, passes away. Um, I look at it as an honor, right? Like I got to share that moment with them. And as long as I can do, I'm doing whatever I can to make that moment better for them, then that's all I can do, right? And I'll do whatever it takes to make that moment better. But at some point, we really have no control of anything in life. We have some control. Right. But yeah, those kind of experiences like the experience of seeing someone die for a lot of people.

It it doesn't just change you but it it makes you i don't know what the best way to say it is but you're just devastated by it and every time it happens it becomes compounded it's more and more and more and is there like one of the things that i've thought about a lot with police officers because i feel like look there's bad cops we all know there's bad cops just like there's bad everything else in life but I think that most cops are the experiences that they have in situations where their life is threatened situation where they pull people over they have no idea if this person has a gun if this person's a criminal they just don't know there's so many moments

in their life where they I'm sure they've seen all the youtube videos that i've seen yeah you know where cops get shot at and cops get killed run over by cars and all that crazy shit yeah like that that has got to be always chipping at your mental well-being yeah i mean well you're i mean you're always living in that, that's that sense of, of that fight, right. That fight or flight. And yeah, I mean, look, I, the respect I have for cops is just, it's astronomical, right? Like, you know, being on scenes and seeing like, look, we're, we're as firefighter, we're

kind of like the way, the way I'll describe it is, is cops are kind of like the dad of, of, of the country when they show up, like nobody's happy. Like there's never a time that people are like, you know, like somebody's going to be mad, right? Yeah, somebody's going to be mad. Somebody's mad. When the firefighters show up, we're kind of like the cool uncles. You know what I mean?

Like we really can't, what are we going to do wrong, right? You're going to help. Yeah, and then, you know, when EMS shows up, they're kind of like the moms, right? Like they're the caring, they're going to fix it, they're going to help. Yeah. And then, you know, when EMS shows up, they're kind of like the moms, right? Like they're the caring. They're going to fix it. They're going to, the empathy's there. And I'm not saying that all three don't have empathy. I'm just saying that they all have to hold themselves in a different way because they're all there for a different role.

Right. a cop, you know, look, those guys are just, they're incredible because they could go from coming over and, and, you know, miss, miss whoever, uh, miss, you know, miss Nancy or whatever, miss Smith, you know, she's having, you know, she might think somebody's at her house or, you know, maybe the next door neighbor's a little too loud and, you know, he's got to handle it one way. And then the next person that he pulls over um he could walk up to a car they could walk up to a car and could pull a gun and shoot him yeah and and they have to be ready for everything right and um yeah those guys are just they're they're a different they have to live a different life you know totally different life than everybody else and we expect them to just be able to do it

When you able to handle it and the factor we don't take into account You know is the humanization factor right like I? Mean are you always on when you're having a bad day? You know I mean like right like the there you know they their kid could have been late from school They could have a sick kid. They could be arguing with their wife sure I mean like her husband or whatever right and and we we don't ever look at that and say you know well what did they just go through what what what's going on there like they're they literally show up to fix everybody else's problems you know while they have to deal with their own yeah and they're

scrutinized on how they do it not just scrutinized but you know if they they have to deal with their own. Yeah. And they're scrutinized on how they do it. Not just scrutinized, but, you know, if they fuck up, it ruins their entire life. Yeah. You know? Everything's on the line. Yeah. It's a very, very, very difficult job.

And I don't think it gets nearly the respect that it deserves. And all we concentrate on is the ones that suck, the cops that suck at their job, the cops that are assholes or the cops that suck the the cops that suck at their job the cops that are assholes or the cops that are abusive and that's what we think about that's it you think about cops that plant evidence cops that shoot people unnecessarily that's all we think about because they're the only ones they get attention yeah right like they're the only ones you see I mean it's kind of like everything it's kind of everything like like you only see bad ones. The media loves to focus on the bad ones because guess what?

Hate and fear makes money. You know, I, I truly believe that look and love will go further than hate and fear. Love, love, love a hundred percent go further. Right. right? But hate and fear, think about any time you feel fear or you hate. That was put into you by somebody else 90% of the time. Look at the stuff we're scared of. What, because somebody told us? Right, because, you know what I mean? Like what kind of stuff you mean? I mean, like, I don't know.

know what I mean? It's like, like what kind of stuff you mean? I mean, like, I don't know. Like sometimes I, you know, I'll get anxiety about, um, well, I mean, just like right now, like, well, you know, well let's go pull our tool. How about this toilet paper? You get anxiety? No, no, no. I'm saying like, no, I'm saying like whenever, whenever the pandemic hit, right. You know, it's contagious, right? Like, freaking out, fear is contagious. Somebody's seen somebody go buy toilet paper, and it's like, the next thing you know, toilet paper's all out. Right? Like, all these things are contagious. Right.

And it's like, fear sells. Fear, I mean, like, if you thought about it, what was toilet paper going to do for you in this, right? And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, like we could live without tulip paper. You know what I mean? Like it's not a survival instinct. I think what happened during the pandemic was people were tested in a way that they had never been tested before. Like we had never experienced a moment in our life where there was a real fear that society was going to be completely disrupted and that a disease was going to ravage everybody. And even though it turned out to be a terrible disease, it wasn't nearly as bad as what we were fearful of. What we were fearful of was some kind

of plague that would just wipe everybody out. And that, I think that initial mindset that people had was very difficult to shake even now that you know covid this new variant this omicron is not nearly as dangerous it's much more contagious but not nearly as deadly there's some people that still want to treat it like it's the thing that's going to kill everybody they still want to have this sort of same mindset because that's the initial mindset they had so I think when people were stockpiling toilet paper and stockpiling food, there was a fear, a fear mindset, a mindset of the unknown that gripped people that a lot of folks are just not willing to let go of. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole thing that I don't, yeah, I don't understand. Do you know what I mean, that's a whole thing that I don't understand.

Do you know what I mean? Well, you know, you've experienced a lot of, like, real danger and, you know, real life-threatening situations. You've seen people. You've taken lives. You've seen people's, you know, lives leave their body. It's a, you know, the level. That's the thing that I, one of the things that I truly appreciate about veterans is you don't get to do what they do unless you've experienced massive amounts of adversity.

Just getting through, I mean, if you're talking about someone who's a SEAL, just getting through buds. I mean, what fucking percentage of human beings that walk around could do that? Very few. Very few. They're different humans. And it's because they've overcome adversity and for some people any kind of thing that throws their regular routine off track will fuck them up hey um Jamie can you tell Jeff to bring in the coffee and and cups of water too was no cups for the

water yeah I mean but but don't you think that like you know the people who haven't I mean the only way you know you don't have you don't get exposed to adversity is by fear yeah right and so again yeah whatever's holding you back from doing what you want to do or trying things or experiencing things yeah it's never as bad I mean obviously there are some things that are as bad but most of the time you know you've been so worried about something and it's not really as bad as you thought it was right right you know sometime yeah and so that's my thing is is like why were you why were you fearful of it right like they're like we did I don't think that we were

born with fear I mean I that we were born with fear. I mean, I think we were born with, like, natural survivability and instinct, right? But I don't think you're born with, you're definitely not born with hate. Right. Yeah, you're definitely not born with hate. I mean, I think some people are born, I mean, I think, unfortunately, I mean, I'm just guessing. I'm not really a psychologist, I think unfortunately there's a certain level of fear and anxiety

I think kids do adapt or adopt rather from their parents I think there's some of it might even be in their genes you know people that are neurotic and weirded out maybe they're modeling their parents

maybe they're paying attention to how their parents handle things and they handle things similarly for sure Or maybe it's it's passed down. I think there's a lot of shit that's passed down to people You know, I really do just like there's a lot of positive traits that get passed down to people I think there's a lot of negative ones too, unfortunately And I think you know your children learn in many, whether it's through genes or whether it's through experience. They learn in many ways through the way the parents handle stuff. But do you think that that's in your DNA or do you think that that's because that's how you've seen it done, right?

Could be both. You know what I mean? Yeah, it could be both. But I also think it's like I think you need some challenges. You know, some of my favorite people besides veterans are jujitsu people and one of the reasons why is because they experience so much adversity like and i mean like it's it's safe it's you know it's all controlled in a controlled environment but in that moment when someone's trying to strangle you and you're you're literally fighting for your life,

it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel controlled. Someone's got your back and that forearm goes underneath your neck and you're like, oh shit. Like you know the reality is, you're playing a game and that game is, I'm gonna kill you with my bare hands. And when that guy gets your back and gets your neck, he just killed you and then you tap and you go again. But even though you survive and even though it's safe, it's a way of recreating. It's like a facsimile. It's like a reasonable version of a life or death scenario that gets

to play out all the time. Most of the time, it's very peaceful. Most of the time it's very peaceful most of the time it's fun you slap hands it's all good but there's moments in these struggles where you're out of breath and then all of a sudden this guy mounts you and you're like oh fuck like those moments most people never experience that thing where you you have to push because you either you're gonna escape or you're going to escape or you're going to submit. And having moments in your life where you're really tested gets you to understand who you are. Gets you to understand where your character lies. Gets you to understand what your thresholds are, where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are. Let's you strengthen those weaknesses in a very real usable way. I think most people, they don't experience enough difficult scenarios in their life. And one of the things that

I love most about jujitsu is you could just take a regular person and you could transform them. And through this difficult game that you're playing, you can change the way you interface with reality. You'll, you'll have more character. You'll have more, more ability to withstand difficult situations. They'll be more normal for you. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, look, you, you, until you've gone through it, I call it the lens of life. You know, your lens gets shaped on what to focus on by what you've seen through it. Right. And kind of prioritizing, um, you know, your lens gets shaped on what to focus on by what you've seen through it, right, and kind of prioritizing. You know, football was that for me. I mean, I do.

I don't roll enough, but, like, I do jujitsu. But, like, you know, football was that for me growing up was it was about getting hit and about having to get back up, right, about someone stopping you. I mean, it was a team sport. It was you're relying on other people to help protect you. You're not going to win a football game by yourself. Um, you know, it was kind of like that, uh, about, you know, lose, lose five yards and then have to get back up and try to get it again. Um, you know, that was what it was for me growing up was that was my contact sport about, you know, look, you can look over and see what guys are gonna, are gonna rock your bell. about, you know, look, you can look over and see what guys are going to, are going to rock your bell. Right. Um, and that was kind of what it was for me. Look, I love jujitsu too. I mean,

jujitsu is exactly what you're talking about. I mean, there's nothing more, more nerve wracking than, uh, someone being on top of you and you can't breathe. Right. Right. Like, and cause at that point they have control of you at that point, they're deciding your fate. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, we could, you know, we could roll jiu-jitsu. And if they get their arm around your neck, I mean, they get to decide if they let go. Yeah. You know, and it's a real vulnerability and test of you being there, right? I mean, the more experience you have in adversity and tough times and coming out of it and trying to figure out. tough times and and coming out of it and and trying to figure out and i think that's the cool thing about jujitsu is is you roll and then you try to figure out okay so obviously when you

when you have to tap that was not where you wanted to be right how'd you get there how did i get there right like what did i do wrong right and isn't there so much to be said about that? Like, what if we did that in life? Like, check, I got here. I messed up. But the problem is in life now, or the way the world is now, that you can't go back. Like, you can't say, oh, well, I did the best I could right there. I wouldn't do it again. And this is how I would

fix it. Because now like the world just doesn't accept it. Like, it's almost like the ha ha got you, right? Like it's a, it's a, it is just to apologize at this day and age, like means you're done. Like, it's almost like apologies are, are, it just means it's going to be brought up and held against you forever. It's like, you just admitted to what they were right about. means it's going to be brought up and held against you forever. It's like, you just admitted to what they were right about. And it's like, how does that make sense? Like, how do you get better from not messing up? Like, how do you get better from, I mean, I mess up every single day and I just apologize. And I mean it. I mean it when I'm sorry. Like, I don't want to hurt anybody. People would say at a certain

point in time, if you keep apologizing for the same thing, you're just getting away with apologizing. You're not fixing yourself. Right. But that's a difference, right? Is that's one thing, but it's a difference for me to just apologize when I'm sorry. Right. Like I messed, Hey, sorry. I didn't, you know, this is how I, like, I didn't understand how this made you feel, or I didn't mean to do that. It's just being honest. It's just being honest. Yeah, I think that's one of the most important things for a person. What I was getting at with the jiu-jitsu analogy is that the difficulty, it transfers into your life and it can enhance you.

But it seems like the difficulty of combat is way more intense and way more insane. And obviously way more intense, way more insane. But way more difficult to overcome and to learn things from. It's like, it seems like for a lot of the combat veterans that I talk to, their experiences are kind of like burned in their brain in some way. Where it's not like you're,

I'm sure they're stronger because of the adversity they've been through, but also some of it is too much and it just leaves them shooken. You know they used to call it shell shock, remember? I mean that's what they used to call it before, it was PTSD. But troops were coming back from Vietnam, they called them fucking shell shocked. And I think, I mean, I think that was me for a long time. For sure. I mean, that was me for a long time. Like, did you get counseling for that? Did you like, how did you,

I went to Mexico. What was in Mexico? Um, I went down and I did Ibogaine. Oh, um, did we talk about that the first time you were on the podcast? No, I think I did it afterwards. Oh really? Interesting. Um, but yeah, no, I went to, how was that? It gave me my life back. I mean, it gave me my life back. Like, uh, I went down and, um, I just got to the end and I talked about in this book, um, you know, I was going through my divorce. Um, I, gosh, I did, you talk about not knowing what was next. I mean, literally, you know, just, gosh, I was just, I was melting down, just melting down from the inside. And, um, and finally, like one of my friends looked at me and he's like, hey, I just went and did this.

This is the date you're going. You need to go do this. And it was at that point, like, you know, I grew up in Kentucky. And, I mean, I grew up with weed is bad. I mean, all this, right? You know what I mean? And for me, it was just such a, it was just such a it was just such a to think that I was gonna go do psychedelics right it was just like such a like it was like a moral thing for me right I mean it was a

moral moral dilemma dilemma yeah and but I mean it was all I had left and I knew that for my daughters I needed to do something can you describe the experience yeah I mean I went down and wait where'd for my daughters I needed to do something. Can you describe the experience? Yeah I mean I went down and uh. Where'd you go? To well I flew into San Diego and then we just went across the border somewhere I don't like. Oh it was like close to Tijuana? The south of that like start with an E so um yeah I don't know where it was but went down there and took the Ibogaine at like 8 p.m. at night on Friday. And I kicked in like an hour later. And it was like I was walking through this gloomy city. I was kind of like walking through a gloomy city, like overcast.

Does that make sense? Yeah. And I just remember I went into this one room i mean i could see the street signs and everything like i went in this one room and i walked out on this stage and there was like all these people in this room and it was like they were going by like um you know like those old slide like slideshows like they're just spinning by and i was seeing these people and i was in there and i just felt this like discipline everybody was disappointed in me and um like I see all these people and I just felt like all this disappointment I was like running around like going up to people like why like what did I do what can I fix like how can I fix this like what did I do wrong like I'm sorry and it was like all these people that

that I just people in my life like I I could see their faces, people in my life that I've tried so hard to be good enough for. And you just, you, you, you ain't going to be good enough for them. Right. And, uh, and so I left that room, I was in there for a few hours and, um, I left that room and then I was walking through the town and I would go up and I would look at these, like the, like the like these fuel gauges. I could see these fuel gauges and they were like it had E for empty or E for empty and then F would meant like finished. And everything was like this far from finished. It was like I never finished anything. It was like I never finished anything.

And then I seen this like beautiful ball light and I went to it and in it was like my daughter's playing. And I just felt like so much peace. And then there was like obviously like different moments of I never forget this one moment in it. I just like I almost like because I mean, you, I just like, I almost like, cause I mean, you could see, I mean, I could like open my eyes. I mean, it was really blurry, but like I was, I was present. Right. And, um, I was going to just ask the doctor, like, I was like, I just don't want to be here anymore. Like I can't do this. And, uh, I, I knew that he was going to say there's nothing I can do about it. So I stayed there, and I just remember it breaking my ego. I remember focusing on my ego.

I remember, like, fighting it, just, like, just realizing that all this was ego, that my ego just, the best way to describe it was, like, it didn't make me, like, you know, like, when you drink, like, you kind of feel numb. This was, like, it didn't make me like, you know, like when you drink, like you kind of feel numb. This was like my soul. Like it was like, it was just, it just like, it was like my soul had gone through a workout. Like, like a workout on it. Right. Like just an ass kicking workout.

And it just broke my ego. You know, like it just, it just showed me so much about my ego. And there was just, I just remember like at one point I was like, I don't care. I don't even care anymore. I don't care what people think. I don't care. Like I'm, I'm not going to live by what people think. I just, I remember just like, just all I could just say back and forth was, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care what happens to me. This is why you were tripping? While I was tripping. And so I was on it until from 8 PM on Friday night. And I came out of it

at like two or 3 PM on Saturday. Wow. And, um, I came out of it and I was mad. The guy that sent me there, I was so mad at, I was like, I didn't need this. I was like, I didn't need to feel like this. I felt terrible. Um, why are you mad at him? Well, cause I was like, you know, you, you sent, you told me this is going to help me and I didn't need to see all my problems. right? It kind of just brought my problems out and made me look at them and realize that I need to do something to change these. So why would you be mad at him then? Well, I was mad because he sent me there, and I thought he was going to help me,

and I felt like it made me worse, right? In that moment you did? In that moment, and then I did DMT the next day, 5-MeO, and that was what brought it all together um the next day we did 5meo and I was so like I was down I was depressed I was like upset because it just like I just I was like gosh I just didn't need to see all this but why I don't understand if you think it's beneficial why were you upset at him? And why did you think you did indeed to see it? Well, what I'm saying is all of it together was beneficial.

But the Ibogaine by itself wasn't? The Ibogaine, well, I mean, no, I think it opened Pandora's box for me, right? Because it made you think about things. But isn't it better maybe to think about them than to suppress them in the back of your head um i mean the experience like it just it was like an ass kicking right like it was just like it was like the ultimate ass kicking it was miserable like i was throwing up i'm saying it's good for you i'm saying like but when i put it together with the dmt and i did the dmt the next day it brought it all back together right like you Like, you know, after I did the DMT, I'll never forget, like, we, I took, you know, I took the hit of it, and I laid back, and it was like I was gone through this tube.

It was just like this tube, like, almost like a water slide, right? Right, yeah, I've done it. And. You feel like you're in the center of the universe or something. Like you don't exist anymore. It was beautiful. It was so beautiful. Like, the white that. It was beautiful. It was so beautiful. The white that I seen was like there's no white.

There's no color here that could ever do the same. Right. It was so beautiful. I felt so much love. It was like pure love. It was like how I felt whenever I met my kids, you know, like whenever I was there when, when Atlee was born, when I met Sailor, like the love that I have for them, it was like that,

but times a million you could just feel it. And it was like so good. Like it just showed that like there is good. And for me, I put it together and it's like, it's inside me. Good's inside of us. Feeling good. Like those good things are inside of us and it's just our ego that keeps us from feeling and being happy. So the Ibogaine gave you this understanding of all the conflicts that you've caused and whether it's uh interrelational with other people or even with yourself by not finishing things and not following through on things yeah do you think that it was trying to show you that some part of your problems lie in the fact that maybe

you don't respect your own efforts like when you you, when you look at that, you haven't finished things. Do you think like it was showing you that you don't have a respect for yourself? Cause you, you don't respect the effort that you put into things. Yeah. I think it showed me that like, yeah, I mean, I think it, I think, I think it showed me that like, yeah, cause I don't write, like I don't, I look at, I look at everything as, well, if you do good, well, that was what you were supposed to do. Right. And if you like the only thing that I've, and I still, I still struggle with it. Right. Like the only thing that I feel is like, whenever I mess up, you know, like if I just, I live in this mindset of, well, I can always be better. So I just, I, you know, like if I just, I live in this mindset of, well, I can always be

better. So I just, I, you know, like I stay focused on that aspect of it, of like, what did I do wrong? And it's a hard thing. It's a hard balance because I always want to be better. I always want to be, I always want to be better. I want to give you my best. And, you know, like, so I think that that was what it kind of showed me was that, Hey, you know, like, like it's okay to, you know, you can do your best. And as long as you do your best, that's what matters. And as long as your intent's good, that's what matters. Like you're going to mess up. Like that's normal. And I think it was like it gave me like I don't know maybe a little grace on myself of you know because I just have this I have this problem

of I I just always want to do more you know I always want to do more for people you know and it's just it's like I don't know it's, it plays against me a lot. You always want to do more for people. Do you always want to do more for yourself as well? Do you always want to do more in terms of like the effort that you put towards things? Like when you I can help myself, the more I can help people, you know, like I, I, like if I could do anything in the world, like I would take all the pain off of everybody else. Right. Like, I don't, I don't want anybody to hurt, you know? And, and I just, I think that everything that I do is about trying to help people, you know, like that's kind of what, what I, I find fulfilling is seeing people happy. Well, that's a beautiful thing, man. I mean, that's a great way to think about life too. If you enjoy making people happy and you know how to make people happy, you know, there's things you can do that can enhance people's happiness.

how to make people happy. You know, there's things you can do that can enhance people's happiness. You know, we were talking before this podcast about a guy that you pulled out of a truck that went into a pond. And it is, as a fireman, a crazy experience that you had where you just tell the story

because it's really, it's fucking nuts. Yeah, there was a, and obviously I can't get into many details of it, but there was, we had a call. We have a lot of, I get to serve with a lot of great people. And a call, a truck had, like, gone underwater inside of a pond, rolled up, and we were initially told that it was stuck on the side of the pond and had no clue that it was going to be underwater. Got there and couldn't see the truck.

And so I'd gone over the fence and another guy had come with me and started going to this pond because I see two people standing on the side of it. And I thought they were already out or the guy drove off, whatever, who knows. on the side of it and I thought they were already out or the guy drove off whatever who knows and so get there and I could see this little like white square out in the middle of the pond and this woman goes um she said he's still in there and I said in the truck and she said yes he's in the truck and um I And it was her son. Her son or some way they were related. Her son or somebody.

At some point they were related. She said he's still in there. They had watched this all happen. They were the ones that called. And so I started taking, I was in full bunker gear, you know, like our turnout gear. And so I took my coat coat off took my pants off and uh other guys are showing up on scene at same time um and so I just we jumped in John jumped in the water swam out to the truck and then as soon as I got out there you know truck was probably

three and a half four feet deep uh the top of it was and so I, I swam down to try to see if the windows were unlocked or were open. I thought the window might be open and it wasn't. And so then I think to myself, well, where's my window punch at? Well, it's in my bunker gear. That's on the side of the, of the, of the pond. And I was so mad at myself with this time. My, my buddy, Eric and my buddy, Jonathan, um, jumped in right behind, started swimming out there, no questions asked, I mean, just because they knew it was just to get down, it was time to do it. And they got out there, and then one of the police officers

threw me her baton, so got it, and then I couldn't bust the window open with it. I couldn't get enough leverage underwater, and my buddy Eric, I mean, this dude is like he's jacked. Right. So he's just he's just beating this window and beats it, beats it open. And he beat the back window open. I told him to beat the back window open first as a four door truck, because I was afraid the guy was still conscious and I I was afraid that he was going to reach out and grab me and drown me. So I was like, if I can come in through the back window, he can't just immediately grab me. But I couldn't get into the back window. Cause I was like, the truck was full of stuff. Like

the whole backseat was full of stuff. So then Eric beats the front window out. And so he did. So then he, um, I dove down, dove in the truck and, guy was in there and he was he was up like he was floating. And you couldn't see because it was in a pond, but he was up against kind of like the roof of the truck inside. And I tried to I tried to reach in and grab him or reach and grabbed him. And I just kind of felt where is up at top. grabbed him or reached and grabbed him and I just kind of felt where he's up at top and I grabbed his collar of his shirt because I knew I could just get him out of the window which it's pretty tight to fit a person through a window right so pulled him out and whenever I did um I kind of like sank because like I had him with me and I just knew I couldn't let him go because if I did

let him go I'd never find him right in the pond and yeah I thought I was gonna how deep is the pond probably ten feet eight eight ten feet deep but it's mud at the bottom so I tried to push off the bottom with my feet and my buddy had he ended up grabbing me he got me by my belt I guess I've kind of been don't like went over a little baby grabbed me by my belt I guess I've kind of been like went over a little bit he grabbed me by my belt and pulled me up we get to the top and um the the guys obviously he drowned and so we swam him back um myself Eric and uh and Jonathan swam him back to the shore got him up on shore and then you know everybody kicked in and started doing CPR he was breathing on his own by the time the

helicopter landed and you know we had we had Tiffany there who was just an incredible, you know, just the EMS people were just incredible. How do you get the water out of someone's lungs when they do that? Well, you start doing suction, right? So you'll, they, um, they put an eye gel in, um, to establish an airway, but, you know, getting CPR going, uh, they put airway in and they started doing suction. I don't know how much fluid she brought off, but you know, they, they brought a ton of fluid off of him just doing continuous suction. Um, so what would you do if you didn't have equipment there? I mean, you just, I mean, compressions, right. Compressions and trying to, you know, bag, trying to get as much water as you can off, you know, they, they might, they might aspirate, uh, you know, trying to keep that

aspiration out of the lungs. Right. So, um, and it's, and me, you know, the next day, myself, Eric and Jonathan, we actually had to go to the doctor cause we, we all have aspiration pneumonia right now. Um, from it, from this just happened. Yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah. I got, I got aspiration pneumonia, right. That's what my cough is from. When did this happen? How long? Tuesday. Wow. Yeah. But, but you know, look, the guy, um, we, you know, we get updates every day cause we all, I but but you know look the guy we you know we get updates every day because we all I mean you know we all we all want this guy to make it and he I mean he's off life support he's talking Wow how long was it in there for I know that we were on scene from the time that we got there until the time we pulled him out I mean mean, it's probably 10, 12 minutes.

But, you know, what you don't know is you don't know how long. Was he in there before that? The air was in the truck or how long there was, you know, something, you know, breathing room in the truck, you know. Right. Fuck. But it's like, look, I'm surrounded by giants. I'm a man surrounded by giants. I'm like when people talk about like, oh, the world's going to shit or, you know, there's just bad people.

I just, you just come hang out with me for a day. You should see the people I'm surrounded by. Just like incredible people who would give their shirt off their back, were just awesome dads awesome moms just awesome people you know just really really good people who who do good things and I'm surrounded by them I'm so fortunate to to be surrounded by such people that you know from the fire department fire department I mean just in every day right I mean you know look I mean I get to Tim Kennedy right I mean just you talk about a guy that loves you know you talk about a guy that just wants to help people. I mean, that dude's always trying to make something better.

Yeah, he's an amazing person. But, yeah, people in the fire department, people just at my gym, right? You know, people coming to the gym and coming in there at 5 a.m. every morning and working out and just trying to be better. Those people are real. There are people like that. They're everywhere. Yeah, they are.

There's just not that many of them in terms of, like, comparison to the regular people. But you have to be one of them for them to come hang around you. Yes. You have to, like, good people don't hang out with bad people. That's true. Yeah, that's true. And also, one of the ways that a person becomes a good person is being around a person like that and then realizing that, like, wow, the effect that person has on me in terms of, like, the inspiration they provide me, in terms of, like, the way you can see a person behave and how much admiration you have for them. And you, like, you change your behavior patterns to be more like them.

People, if your friends are all gross, like you're probably going to be gross too. If your friends are all stealing money and just lying and being assholes all the time, it's like, man, like you don't have a lot to shoot for. Nobody's ever. Not my bar. Nobody's ever. It's kind of like in jujitsu, right? Like you're never going to be, like if you just roll with the same group,

like you're never going to be better than, like you might, you can only go so far advanced so far. Right. Right. It's the same thing in your environment. Right. Like if, if you, you're only going to be as good as the best, but that's the most you could be is the best person around you. I wonder. I mean, it depends on what you're reading, what you're trying to do. I mean, people are pretty flexible. You can do a lot, but it's very important to at least make the best attempt to be around powerful people. And if you can do that,

and the best way to do that is, yeah, what you're talking about. Be around people at the gym. Be around people that either do jiu-jitsu or something else that's difficult. Be around firefighters. Be around people that are trying to help people all the time. EMTs, people that are first responders that are working to try to help people on a daily basis. Or people who are good parents or people who are good husbands and people who are good wives, right?

Like all of it, all of it matters. I mean, I, and that's how I judge, like, I don't say I judge people, but I, I evaluate people, the people who are around me, the people I invest my time is like, if you've got money in stocks, do you just say, I don't care what it is. I don't care how it's doing. I don't care what it's going to do. Right. No, you don't. Cause it's your money. You'll, you'll lose there. Right. And I feel the same way as, as with my time, my time is equity. I, you know, you have emotional equity, you have time that's equity and I'm going to invest it in people that, that are making me better, that are helping me in some way, not helping me, but like making me a better person. And, um, I just, it's a simple formula for me is like, I, if you're not somebody that

if I die today that I want my daughters to, to, to be around without need you around me. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. And if you can do that, you can eliminate a lot of problems in your life with people that are just, it's, it's unfortunate because I do want people to do better in life, but there's certain people that you just it's it's unfortunate because i do want people to do better in life but there's certain people you just got to cut them loose they they just wherever they are at this moment there's they're too far away from where you need them to be and if you hang out with them they're just going to keep creating problems then one of the ones that drives me the most nuts is people that create create constant problems and then they get like this sort of

emotional charge out of resolving the problems so they create a problem and then they resolve the problem and then they get it they get addicted to that sort of seesaw thing where they're always like in a squabble with someone and then they're you know I'm sorry and everybody makes up we're good now yeah we're good now and then you know they'll find another one to be involved chaos yeah they just constant chaos right it's people that are just they're not only are they not at peace but they're nowhere even near the road you know you're not on the road to peace you're on the road to occasional reconciliation with people and a lot of people get into those relationships with with you know boyfriends and girlfriends like that they get into these things where they

fight they argue with each other and then they make up and they get addicted to the making up part and then you know don't you but don't you think that becomes like normal right like like sometimes like you get in that and it just becomes it becomes a normal thing like so this becomes the norm it's like in a relationship you know nobody starts off by beating each other right like it starts off by saying you know um you know like fuck you right and then it well that becomes normal right and then every time the bar is pushed a little bit further right further and the next thing you know it's just it's toxic and it's just bad and it's like you know we just lose respect for each other and it happens i mean it can happen so fast if you don't pay attention it can

and that that i mean for a guy that's horrible but for a woman it's worse because a woman has to worry physically about her safety from a guy. You know, that's when, you know, you have daughters as do I. And that's one of the scariest thoughts is that someone's going to fuck your daughter up, beat them up or do something terrible to them. It's like the fact that men are capable of that is just such a horrific aspect of, of life, you know, because most people aren't capable of that.

Most people would never do that. But the people that would do that, they're real, they're out there, you know? And how do you prep them for it? That's a good fucking question. How do you,

you know, I mean, I think one way is by setting an example, the way you treat people, that's what they're going to expect from other people. You know, the way you treat your wife, the way you treat your, you know, the people that are around you, they're going to expect that because that's what, you know, if you're hanging out with, if you're hanging out with shitty people and they see you doing that, they're going to hang out with shitty people, right? Yeah. And that's why I go back to my circle, right? My circle is, it's literally everything.

And, you know, like with my daughters, look, I'll be the longest person they'll ever date. I'll be the longest man they'll date. And how I treat them is what they're going to think is, is like, they're going to measure everybody to me. And so if they start dating shitty guys down the road, I should probably look in the mirror. And my example that I set to them is, and not just, not just that I'm, you know, I'm good to my daughters and that I'm respectful to women, but that I work hard and that I serve the community and that I continue to try to better myself. And I accept responsibility for my actions and all these things like they're watching everything. to someday, like, you know, we automatically as, as parents, we automatically have whatever you want to call it, like street cred with our children. And that's how they learn to, to handle

problems. And that's how they hand, you know, relationships and things like that. And it's just so important that, you know, my daughters are my accountability factor. Like I look at it and it's like, I try to treat people the way that I would want someone to treat my daughters are my accountability factor. Like I look at it and it's like, I try to treat people the way that I would want someone to treat my daughters. Now, when you talk about that, I began experience about how it bothered you that, you know, you had to think about all these times where you disappointed people or all the people that were upset at you. What about that was, what, what was so frustrating about that? was it that you had already gotten through that and put it aside and now it's like rehashing it and just making you feel like shit or was it just

that you were confronted with reality i mean i didn't like it i think it's just like there's just some people that i mean you're not gonna you're never gonna be good enough for right you know and it and it't, it's not necessarily you. I mean. Sometimes it is. Well, I mean. Yeah. But sometimes it's just them.

Again, sometimes it's just them. Right. And, uh, but I didn't see the people. I didn't see the people, not the people I fucked over. I didn't see them. You know, I seen like, you know, I mean, I, I seen people like family members that, that you're like, well, you know, why, why was it like this for me? Right. And, uh, you know, that was, you know, that, that was an aspect of, look, I just let it go. Like, you know,

that's kind of what that's all the stuff I seen with Ibogaine was kind of like, just let it go. Just let it go. Right. It wasn't, it wasn't, I didn't see the things that like, I didn't see anything about combat. I didn't see, you know, I didn't see anything like that. I just seen the things that I let control me that I couldn't control. I just seen the things that I let control me that I couldn't control. So as I began, just like the way I've heard it described is that it's ruthlessly introspective. It's like it makes you see things that maybe you've been avoiding thinking about. Yeah. I mean, look, we all know if we all sit down and we truly want to see it, we all kind of know why we are the way we are.

Everything adds up. Right. Like it's just like we't want to, we don't want to face it. Um, and Ibogaine makes you face it. Like you're going to sit there and it's going to keep you there until you've seen enough of it. And are you hallucinating while you're doing this? I mean, I, I mean, it is like, I'm really there, but I mean, I can open my eyes I mean, I mean, it is like I'm really there, but I mean, I can open my eyes and stand up if I mean the world spinning. But, you know, like. But when you close your eyes, it's like you're there. So it's like you're rehashing memories or like, is that what it is? like I liked it because the people that I seen like obviously I wasn't walking through a city but the people that I seen were real the the the moments that I was watching myself like how I talked to people like there was a piece of that right like where it was real moments it was like I was sitting in a stadium

watching myself from a like a different point of view does that make sense yeah and it was real it was real like it wasn't like I was seeing like crazy crazy you know alternate reality he was really real people was real situations it was real things now was it a replica of what you'd experienced or was it not? So was it situations that never really occurred? Well, I mean, obviously the walking to, to onto the stage, um, was not, you know, obviously all these people weren't in one room, but, but their faces were real. They were real people in my life. They were there, they were real people. So I mean, obviously there was like a balance to it, but it was like,

all of it made sense. If that makes sense, like every bit of it, like I knew what it was telling me. So it's like you walked onto a stage and then the audience was all filled with people that you've had conflicts with or just like people that I don't feel like, you know, people, I feel like I've that you let down that, you know, people I feel like I've, that. You let down? That I, you know, that make me feel like I let them down when, when I don't think I, when, and, and, and when I look at it logically, I, I didn't. You know what I mean? Like, um, and there was just, you know, there was a lot of that.

And so you get out of that, you do DMT. Yeah. The next day. You put it all together because of those two experiences. Yeah. And then what is life like right after that? You know, before, so before I went down there, I mean, I was having an anxiety attack a week. And what does that mean?

Like what happens during your anxiety attacks? You know, like I'll wake up throwing up. during your anxiety attacks you know like I'll wake up throwing up like I'd be in the floor like throwing up crying just just like can't control it and it's but when you say anxiety like what are you thinking you know I just that how much of a failure I am really that's That's what it was? Yeah. A failure? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's probably... And look, I'm not gonna say those thoughts go away.

You know, like, while I'm on that truck, while I was on that truck the other day, all I was telling myself was just, like, you know, I can remember it vividly of, you're a piece of shit. Look, this is you. Like, you didn't bring the window punch with you. How could you mess up so bad? Now this guy's going to die because

of you. And then I'm watching my friends swim out there and I'm just thinking to myself like, Oh, look at you. You're an idiot. And now you've brought them in here and now they're going to drown and you're going to, you're going to get your friends killed. And then, you know what I mean? Like, it was just like the whole time I'm literally like, my brain is just talking shit to me of like, Oh yeah. You know what? Like you're, you're, you're not gonna, you're not going to be able to get this guy out now because you didn't train hard enough. Right. Like, it's just like all these things, like just, just, just beating it. Right. Um, and I don't know why it works that way. Right. But it, it works for me when you, when you were growing up, did you have parents that were very critical of you?

You know, I mean, like, there was accountability. Everything was black and white, right? Like, everything was accountability, right? You know, I mean, look, my dad, my grandpa, I mean, I grew up with my mom until I was like 10. And then I went over to my dad and, um, you know, my dad, my dad's one of the, my dad and my grandfather and my grandmother, like, they're just, they're the greatest people I've ever met. And I, if I can be half of them, I'll be somebody. Um, but it was just like, it was more of a, there's right and wrong. There's, you know. But was there a thing back then about you not being good enough? No.

Nothing? No. Nothing. So why do you have that thought in your head now, do you think? Like, why do you? Because I couldn't save my team. You know, like. So is that when it started? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and then the metal just made it worse.

And for people who don't shit what you went through. And I would just tell people just, you know, go listen to that. Yeah. So you don't have to say it again. Yeah. But that's where it comes from, you know, like, you know, I don't know. Like, when I walked in that valley that day, day, I truly thought that I was good at something. I put the work in, and I thought I was good.

I really thought that. I don't know. Obviously, it shows my naiveness, but I never thought that there would be a situation that I couldn't get my teammates out of. I thought that if anybody was ever going get killed it was gonna be me and yeah just like just just like wanting to wanting to help them and bring them home alive so bad and then just getting in there and and they're all like they're all dead and so it was just like, I just felt like I let them down. Right. Like I, I just felt like I let them down,

you know? And so, and then you come back home and, and, um, then you get this medal of honor. So like, it's just, it's such a, it's such a mental, you know, mental, mental jujitsu with myself of, I got a medal for failing, you know, and, and, and people are like, oh, you know, but you did so much good. Well, it's like, that's not what I set out to do when I went there. I set out to go get my teammates out. And so like, you know, people, I think, I feel like a lot of times people want to change the narrative because they don't like the way it feels. Right. And I'll never do that because, because the lesson that I learned from that and the emotions that I get from facing the true results of that day push me to the next level to be able to go out and help people today. of that day uh pushed me to the next level to be able to go out and help people today so that that time of your life that was responsible for all of the what whether you would call it self

doubt or self-judgment like the that that the nasty voice in your head that says you're a loser yeah yeah i mean i would say that that's it right but even after the Ibogaine and even after the DMT you still have that voice because this was just last week but it doesn't but the difference is it doesn't control me like I recognize it you know what it is when it's happening I know what it is when it's happening and a lot of times I use it to my to my Do you know? Like I use it to my advantage to give me the edge to push on. Yeah. And I think it helps me. I just think that now I can control it.

Do you know what I mean? So you know what it is because you're experiencing it, but you know what it is so you can stop it before it takes over instead of allowing it to just overwhelm you. Yeah. I mean, like I at the end of the day, like I know. I mean, look, I know I'm not a piece of shit. Right.

Like I know I know that, you know, I know that I'm a good person. Like my mind doesn't control. It doesn't make like when it when it's doing control, it doesn't make, like when it, when it's doing this, it doesn't make me believe it. Right. And I think that, you know, Ibogaine gave me that by, you know, I guess offloading this, like kind of the stuff that doesn't matter, you know, like when you get emotional, like you start focusing on all these things and it's like, now I can control that to get back to the logical, like, okay, let's look at logic. Right.

Like, you know what I mean? And just trying to keep that as a balance, but I don't ever want to lose that. Right. I don't ever want to lose the, that voice because that voice is what, what drives me to push hard. Right. Like what, what I, you know, I don't ever want to lose that right so that voice That's the critical voice is

The thing you think you need to to push yourself for me. It's it's what it's what helps me Yeah, I mean obviously it doesn't sound very healthy does it but it doesn't I'm like I'm wondering if there's other I mean I very healthy does it but it doesn't i'm like i'm wondering if there's other i mean i kind of have a similar thing going on in my head but um i don't ever let it get to the point where you know i'm saying you're a loser you fucked up you fucking idiot you there's i don't have that kind of internal dialogue but i do recognize that i have to i have to manage my mind. I can't allow those kind of thought patterns to spiral in my head. So I don't let them go anywhere. But I think we all get those, you know, those feelings.

For sure. I mean, I think we do. that like you know would would I would I need those if I if I wasn't gonna continue to put myself in these critical moments mmm probably not right like you know I it's kind of like whenever I was I was a Marine you know to, to do, to do what people like Tim Kennedy, to do what people like Jocko, you can't beat evil people unless you can be evil. You know what I mean? Like, if you can't, like, if you're not willing to, and I'm not saying either one of those are evil. So let me say that back. But for me, in my mindset like for me to be able to to for me to be able to when you fight whether it's in a ring whether it's with a gun um it really comes down to who's

who's who's willing to give it all and who's I mean obviously training comes into it but but but you I mean if you don't get in the ring you ain't gonna fight if you if you're not willing to go get evil with somebody and take their life you ain't gonna you know what I mean you're not coming home and so it's like what what level are you willing to get at and well the crazy thing to me has always been that then you um ask those people to just rejoin society. And I don't know how much, again, I don't know how much counseling they give you or how much counseling would you, how much do they give you? In the military? When you're leaving.

I mean, so I was fortunate because I got sent home from Afghanistan. I went to this rehab center for like eight weeks. Um, it didn't make any sense to me at the time because I think it was too close to the event. Uh, what is the rehab center? Like it was, um, cognitive CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, I think. So basically like where you try to re reprogram the way you think about things or like, okay, so I, you know, I feel like I was a failure. And then you, you write it out. I mean, it was like this therapy that it was tough. Right. And, um, I, so I went to that, but that was like, I had this amazing, and I talk about her in the book, uh, Captain Katie

Copp. She was a, um, she was on the combat stress team. And so what, when, when I was in Afghanistan, when there was a critical incident like this, they would fly in these, um, psychologists, uh, and they would like, they would try to get on top of it pretty quick, right, to be there to help and all this. She did so amazing. Obviously, I didn't want to talk to her while I was there. So she ended up sending me home from Afghanistan in December, in November. I got home December 5th. But she, like, worked out this arrangement to where I could, instead of just

going back to base, I came straight home because the deployment was still going on. And I went to this CBT thing, but I mean, you're not really taught about counseling. You're not really like, you know, you're just not, it's in the last thing you want to do is, is like, feel like you're weak. Right. Right. Like feel like you can't handle it um because it's your job you know it's like it's like this thing like you know nobody i mean i wouldn't say anybody judges you because look we're all we're all suffering and we want people to get help but it's like one of these deals like you know you don't want to you don't want to be like oh yeah that bothers me yeah yeah the problem with strong people right they don't want to be like, oh, yeah, that bothers me. Yeah. Yeah, the problem with strong people, right, they don't want to ask for help.

And I just don't want to be an inconvenience. Right. That's another thing with strong people. So this shift that happened after you do the Ibogaine and then you do the DMT, like what's before and what's after? Like what is the difference? You know, afterwards, afterwards i mean i didn't even i didn't have anxiety like so no more anxiety attacks that's still the same way yeah how long

ago was this two years two years ago so two years ago it knocks it completely out of your system yeah wow yeah i mean like i feel i feel great like i i'm more present um yeah I mean like I can be I can be who I want to be you know what I mean like I have like it's kind of it's awesome like I get to it's so good it's like so good like I'm I wake up every day and I mean I'm not gonna say every day is the best day of my life but but every day like there's a moment in it that I just look around and I'm just like, how awesome is this? Right. Like I can literally look at, at my friends and just, you know, I mean, I'll start tearing up just thinking about like how, how awesome it is that I get to be surrounded by such great people. I mean, I mean, I'm sitting here with you right now. Do you know what I mean? Like, how like how awesome is that you know it's like

it's like i don't deserve any of this you know but i get to do this but who does deserve it then if you don't what does that i mean when people think like that i'm always like of course you deserve it well i mean i don't think anybody deserves anything i think we're worthy of things yes but but it's also like that thought, like you don't deserve, it means it shouldn't be happening to you. Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not just simply, you don't deserve it. It's, you don't deserve it. So it shouldn't be happening. But like, what does that mean? It's happening. Well, yeah. I don't, I don't understand that kind of thinking. Well, why, why, why would I, why do I deserve your time? Why do I deserve your time? Well, I mean, I think it's a question.

That's called mutual respect. Well, it's also just life. You know, I think sometimes people complicate their thought process with unnecessary paths. They just go down these, like, things. You're not going to get anything out of that. The why do I deserve this path, there's nothing there for you. But that's a natural path.

Yes. And that's what I But, but that's a natural path. Yes. So that, but the, and that's what I'm saying is, is that's a natural path that automatically comes in. And instead of, well, riding that path that we know there's no logic to or good into, it's like, I get to do this. How bad ass is this? That's a great way to look at it. And so like, yeah, that's the control we have. We don't have control of what happens to us most of the time. Right. But we do have a control on how we look at it. Do you talk in this book about your Ibogaine and DMT experience? You do? I do. I talk about it. And is it, um, is it one of the main factors of this idea of the way forward? Or just one? There's just one of them, right? We talk about the circle, you know.

I talk about, like, you know, last time we talked about killing that guy with a rock. And I talk about that. That's a fucked up thing to say casually. You know that story I had about killing that dude with a rock. Oh, yeah, that one. But I talk about how it, like, like how much that guy did for me

and how much he changed my life, which is really cool. And the more I think about it, how much more he still changes my life today. And not in a bad way, but in a good way. And we talk about that. How's it change your life in a good way? I think it's what gives me empathy. change your life in a good way? I think, I think it's what gives me empathy. You know, it gives me, it, it shows me that I can, if I can connect with that guy, I can connect with anybody.

If I can, you know, we all have more things that we're related on than we, than we do that we're not. Right. And it's a choice on which side you choose to pick, right? Like there's only a few things that you can do to me that we're not going to be able to get along about. You know, like you want to mess with my family, you want to mess with people I care about. It's a whole different ballgame. But outside that, I don't care what you do. I don't care what you believe. Like are you a good person or are you not, right? Like it's good or bad. What's your intent? And, you know, that guy taught, like, I don't know. Like I was so arrogant coming into that day and him almost killing me. And watching him die at my hands and just not, I don't want to say I'm not, I didn't, like, I don't want to say that I-sided right like the same way that that people were going to be hurt if I died there were people that were going to be hurt if he died and and I think with that it's like trying to be able to see it from somebody else's side is a huge, huge tool.

Trying to see somebody else from their view is a really, really critical tool before we get all wrapped up in how we're going to handle things. Yeah, that's a thing that very few people do is try to look at life through this person, especially if you have a conflict with a person, not like a hand-to-hand combat situation, fighting for your life, but any kind of conflict that people have.

It's hard sometimes for people to look at other human beings and try to imagine what's going on in their head and how they view you and how they view whatever conflict you're too engaged in, the two of you are engaged in. Like it's a good exercise and it's also good for empathy. It's good to kind of get a sense of, you know, how you should communicate with that person. Think about what it's like to kind of get a sense of, you know, how you should communicate with that person. Think about what it's like to be them.

Try to put yourself in that position. And for a lot of people, that's very hard to do. Yeah. Yeah, because when you do that, you have to also check yourself. Mm-hmm. And that, you know, I feel like for me, like, I try to go into things of like, look, I'm going to, I'm going to lay it all on the table for you. Um, I never want to miss an opportunity for the fact that I'm afraid that I'm going to get screwed over. I'm going to get hurt. Um, I don't want

to miss on getting to know somebody or getting, getting, having a bad-ass relationship or being able to, to meet somebody or them be my friend. I i don't i'm not ever going to let the fear of what they might do to me or how it might affect me keep me from doing that because i know that i can recover you know like i i i i don't know like i i just people are great like there's most people are good i believe most people are good especially if you get them on the right day and under the right circumstances and you interact with them the right way. But even if you catch them on the wrong day, like how much of an influence could you have on them? Right. By being the person that comes up and says, Hey, I, um, you know, how's your day? Right. Like, like just anything, just a little bit of

empathy goes a long ways. Yeah. No, it definitely does. So when you wrote this book, so you wrote it with this guy, Robert O'Neill. Who's this gentleman? So Rob killed bin Laden. Oh. And, you know, what brought us together with the main story, and he can tell this, was I talked about killing that guy we speak together and Rob talked about how you know right after he shot bin Laden he immediately you know went over to bin Laden's kids and he like, I just took out the guy who seems the most evil to us.

And now I just became the most evil person to them. And it's not, it ain't simple. Right. It's not simple. Taking a man's life in front of his family cannot be simple. No. No. I mean, yeah. So, you know, that was kind of what brought us together. And we're just like, how can we help people?

How can we, how can we show our stories? You know, cause, cause I feel like these books, like you talk about into the fire, you, you know, I'll talk about my book. I feel like it made us like not human, like larger than life. I'm, I'm no different than you. What do you mean by that? Just like, it tells a story in a way that people are like, I could never imagine doing that. You know, like I could never, well, gosh, I, I would never be able to do that. I could never imagine being there or doing that. Right. I would never be able to do that. I could never imagine being there doing that. Right. And it's like, I mean, well, I mean, I couldn't have either before I was there. Um, and so I just felt like, you know, I'm, I'm no different than anybody else. You know, I just,

I was there, you know, I, I went over, I was there. Everybody makes different choices in life. And how could we take our experiences and try to help people see that there's a way forward, there's hope, that people are good, that, you know, take from the hard lessons that's held us back or that we've had to be in and try to turn that into something good. And so when you set out to write this book, did you get in touch with Robert? Did you guys, did you both have like the same kind of vision as to what to do here? Yeah, I mean, we just, we wanted to have principles that are simple and we wanted to come together and talk more like not just about war, but about everyday life, everyday struggles that we have and kind of humanize, you know, humanize, humanize war. Right. Like not humanize war, but humanize life and humanize us and and and kind of show that, look, the same concepts that made us successful in combat are the same.

It's just it is literally the same principles that you just apply in all situations so do you feel like the first book when you're talking about it being larger than life that what that you're missing like your own internal struggles and dialogues like what is it about it that didn't make you seem like a regular person to people? I mean, I think it only told like the majority of the good side. Like it didn't, you know, it didn't tell, you know, that the, the aspect of, you know, look, I grew up in a small town. Like, I, you know what I mean? I, I, you know, I'm, I'm adopted. Like, you know look i grew up in a small town like i you know i mean i i you know i'm adopted like you know i mean like there's all these factors of growing up of like the people who kind of shaped me to do that like how did i get to the point that that you know that i did

what i did in that valley in that moment well it's all these people around me you know i mean and still today like everything i'm successful at is because I'm surrounded by great people who push me and hold me accountable every day. And, you know, this book talks about, you know, we're not meant to be alone. You know, we're, we're meant to, to live, be around people and interact with people. And, you know, this book kind of talks about how, you know, how people are everything and, and, you know, who you select to be around, all the way from who you select to be around, from who you – all that is what – there's always a way forward. There's always a way forward. And when you can find hope, it doesn't matter if you're in a valley in Afghanistan surrounded and you've just lost all your team or you're back here and you're getting divorced or whatever it is, as long as there's hope and you've got good people around you, you're going to get through it.

Like, everybody has a bad day. And so when you decided to do this, how do you start a book like this? Like, what are the first words you write? Are you writing this with a ghostwriter? Yeah. You are? Ghostwriter. So do you just sit?

I can't even spell my name. Kid me? So, but well, that's why you, you know, when you type, it gives you that little red squiggly line underneath it lets you know you spelled it wrong. It's handy. Um, so how do you start something like this? Like, did you have an outline in your head of how to do it? So we came up with an idea and we just kind of talked about, you know, we want to almost like a self-help book. We wanted people to be able to read it and apply it to their lives, take the stories that we have. And so we we just got with, you know, people, agents who helped us put that kind of like write out this outline. And then we took it around to the publishers.

Right. And the biggest thing, you know, me and Rob wanted with these publishers was like, we didn't just want a book. We wanted a book that was like, we didn't want it to be left or right. We didn't want to be political. We didn't want it to be, we want it just be for that. Anybody could pick up and read and apply it to their life. Speaking of left or right, like what percentage of people that are in the military are left

wing? I don't, it was never a conversation. Never? Never. So it's, your concern is about staying alive, keeping your people alive and whatever the mission, whatever task you have to do? You know, when I went to fight, I wasn't willing to die or fight. I wasn't fighting for Republicans.

I wasn't fighting for Democrats. I didn't care what color you were. I was fighting for Americans. And all of that, no matter what God you pray to, no matter what your sexual preference is, none of that, like none of that matters to me. Like I, I feel like the America I was fighting for was good, was good. You know, that flag, to me, represents good. People who love their country. People who want good.

And, no, I wasn't fighting for Republicans or Democrats or any of that. Of course not. But what I'm saying is, how many people, did you guys, you never had conversations about politics or anything? I can't ever remember one conversation of even thinking about that. It never came up. That's interesting. Now, you know, Afghanistan was a big part of your life experiences. Yeah.

a big part of your life experiences. Yeah. And then when the troops pulled out, that whole chaotic disaster, like, what did that feel like to you? I mean, it sucked, right? Like, but it's not like there's nobody who set foot over there that ever thought it was going to go any other way.

Really? I didn't. You thought, like, when we pull out, the Taliban's just going to take over and it's going to go any other way. Really? I didn't. You thought, like, when we pull out, the Taliban is just going to take over and it's going to be chaos again. I mean, what was our goal there? Right. I mean, how did we expect to leave it?

Can anybody tell me that? Right. You know what I mean? Like, I knew, we knew. I mean, I don't know. Let me say this. I'll speak for me, not everybody else. I knew that I never thought the Afghan military would be able to sustain itself and defend it, right?

When you heard them say that, though, what was that like just hearing it? Because a lot of people felt the same way that you're expressing yourself right now. A lot of people felt that way, that there's no way they were going to be able to maintain it. No chance. So, I mean, how did I feel when it quit or when we left? Well, how did you feel like when they were trying to pretend like they would be able to do it? I mean, it's all bullshit, right? Like, the only people that win in these wars is Raytheon, General Dynamics.

I mean, there's only ones that win at the end of the day. That's so fucked up. But people don't want to think about that, right? Because that's too, it's like when you start thinking about that level of fucked up And it's but people you know people don't want people don't want to think about that right because that's too It's like when you start thinking about that level fucked up like it just it's it's it's not and it's I mean you can't They don't like to think that way and they definitely don't want to think that that's a motive that those people Benefiting and these corporations benefiting is a motive for doing certain things That cost lives. I think we've seen I think we've seen that plenty

for doing certain things that cost lives. I think we've seen that plenty. When you see what's going on right now, because we are in the middle, as people who may listen to this in the future, we're in the middle of the Ukraine-Russia conflict. It just started a few days ago, and everyone is kind of shocked and terrified by this prospect of a hot war going on you know inside the former

soviet union with russia invading ukraine and we're watching it play out on television and it's it's a very terrifying time for a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, it is terrifying. This giant superpower that's trying to control more of its territory or what it used to be. I mean, is it, is it,

is it though? Like, I mean, let's, let's, again, I hate, I hate Russia.

So let's, let's get that off the table. But what would we do if China came in and China was teaming up with Mexico and they were going to put, and they were operating out of Mexico? What would we do? That's a good point. You know what we would do. And again, I don't know what to believe. I don't know what to believe.

Because, look, first off, Putin's evil. Like, nobody's arguing that. But, you know, Ukraine, I mean, their government's not known for being honest apes. Um, they're one of the most corrupt governments there are. And it's like, you know, I, I just don't, it just, it doesn't like we're hypocritical. And again, critical and again i see what you're saying like you're not saying that you know russia's good and ukraine's evil you're saying it's messy i'm just saying that if we were putin obviously the way he's handling it but again like we don't even know that how many civilians are being killed, right? Like, and I think that the death count right now is in the three hundreds. And so more than 300 people have died. Right. And so, I mean, why do they still have wifi internet? Why are their

lights still on? Well, that's a good question. But I think one of the things that's going on with wifi is, uh, I think Elon Musk is chipped into satellites. I mean, again, I don't know what's going on. I don't know what to believe. You know, you hear these stories that inspire you to think that, oh, you know, these people on this island, on that island, next thing, like, you know, they gave their life and there's this. And it's like, well, now they're alive, supposedly.

Who knows what's really happening? You see that tank that just veered off and ran over that car, and it's like then you hear that that was a Ukrainian tank. You know what I mean? It's like you— I think that's not true, though. I think that was a Russian tank, right? I haven't heard any— But I see what you're saying.

There's so much misinformation online. There's so much misinformation online. Yeah, the island was a big one. They told Russia to go fuck themselves, and they killed everybody yeah the island was a big one that they told russia to go fuck himself and that they killed everybody on the island but it turns out no they actually been captured yeah and so it's like i think they're both fucked up right um and so it's like you know i don't know i don't know what to do with it i just my part is is like there's an at the end of the day russia russia is killing innocent like innocent civilians who have nothing to do with this are losing their lives.

Yeah. Jamie, I'm gonna send you something just so that, um, you could have this too. There is a, um, there's a very good, uh, video that's online that explains the conflict and uh you know it's it's not a judgmental video it doesn't it's not casting the blame one way or another but it's a a youtube video that explains i think we talked about it a little bit yesterday but it explains how this uh conflict got started and uh why russia for like log reasons, why it wants to control. I'll just send it to you, buddy. But we're going to put all these sanctions on them, right? But why are we still buying oil from them?

Yeah, that's the thing. Everybody's pouring Russian vodka down the toilet. But we're still buying over half a million barrels a day from them. That is so wild, right? If you told that to people they would go what and and when you add that up you know i mean putin's making i mean he's he's so this is the video and it's it's long yeah it's just play a little bit of it at the beginning because it shows you the map of where Crimea is and Ukraine and

that if they join NATO, like they're trying to join the EU right now. If they join NATO... A conflict series that explains the entire course of the 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia. It's called Why Russia is Invading Ukraine. Why Russia is Invading Ukraine.

It's available on YouTube and it's very good. Well, we don't have to listen to it. Don't deal for less than 15. It's okay. Essentially, it shows the geographics of the area. It shows you on a map why it's important to control that area. they also talk about how Ukraine has massive reserves of oil and natural gas and how much value there is in that for for Russia and for the rest of the world and how they through this you know this sort of natural resource rich country, they could become like a huge economic power and sort of

separate from Russia and separate from the rest of that area and become a part of the EU, which is what they're trying to do, and also become a part of NATO, and someone could park missiles right there. Sort of like what happened with the Soviet missile crisis that during the Cuban missile crisis. During Kennedy's administration, where they tried to park nuclear missiles in Cuba, which is just right off our shores. I think that's what they're trying to explain.

But again, this video goes way into depth and they're real clear about how complicated it is. It's a very complicated situation. Yeah. But there's a lot of money involved. There's a lot of control of the area. There's a lot of in terms of like tactical control, the ability to like for a military to have control in case there's some sort of an invasion or something. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. invasion or something yeah yeah i mean it's yeah i mean look all i know is is that that you know there's again there's innocent civilians getting killed and at the end of the day like look even if putin you know they keep making it um well if he gets in to kiev right he gets into the city like you know they then they take over the city well let me tell you something take it from us take it from us that even when you take over that city now you're going to fight 20 years of guerrilla warfare

yeah you know what i mean like what again what is what what's the purpose here what's what what are you going to gain right what are you going to gain what are you going to gain? Well, I mean, I think what he's looking for is Ukraine to give in to his demands, right? I think he, maybe he thought that in the beginning, but at this point he should probably see that that's not, I mean, I think it's not going to happen. I mean, the difference in, obviously we handled it different, but the difference in us going to Iraq and Afghanistan versus him going here is like, he also has the world against him, not only Ukraine, you know, the world is, is, is, is against him doing this, which, you know, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't understand it. I don't get it. And, uh, I, again, I just know that it just sucks because of politics, again, people are suffering. Yeah. It does suck and it is horrible.

And it's also, it speaks to the distrust that people have in the mainstream media today because so many people don't know what is the true story. Like what am I supposed to believe? How do you trust them? Right. How do you trust them? Because even if they, let's say, even if they only show a part of the story that is real, it's lying is, if you don't tell the whole story,

it's the same as lying. Yes, it is the same as lying. Yes, it is the same as lying. If you tell a distorted version of the story because that's what the people that are paying for your advertisements want you to tell, that's lying. It's lying. It is. And they're in the business of lying sometimes. Because there's, again, there's no accountability. There's no accountability.

How do you hold them accountable? Well, they're being held accountable by the people that pay for their ads. That's what's different. It's not like, you know, it should be do no harm, right? Just like a doctor. Like doctors have an oath. They're supposed to be trying to take care of someone and do no harm. The same should be what the media should be.

Their ethos should be tell the truth always like give the facts tell the truth and then you know in some of these shows now unfortunately it becomes more about editorializing than it does even about the facts of the news it becomes more about the opinions of these people and you know we know they're reading off a fucking teleprompter. We know that they have scripts. We know that someone talks to them about talking points. We know that they have a corporation behind them that's paying for these ads brought to you by Pfizer. And they have all these, you know, people that are in their ear. And so the version even of their editorializing has all been shaped by influence. Yeah.

And this is what we're using to try to figure out what's going on in the world during this tragedy. Their accountability is to the people that are paying them and not to the people who are relying on them. And, and, but I mean, again, look, there's only one color that matters in this country and that's green and they're in this world and that's green. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fucked up. And what people are really terrified is if while this is happening, what happens if China

invades Taiwan at the same time? Well, I mean, I think that that's going to be I think that that's inevitable. I think so. I do. I mean, I mean, listen, for whatever it's worth. Right. But I mean, I mean, of course, like why? Like if you were America's enemies right now, now is as good a time as ever.

It's the best time. So why not? If you were America's as ever it's the best time so why not if you're america's enemy now's the best time yeah i mean so much chaos so much conflict our priorities are so far off you know we're we're worried about trying to make our naval fleet green and they're over there rocking you know rocking rockets around and just you and just over there teaching meat eaters, right? And it's like, I mean, there's a balance. But again, you can't stay the free world and stay the leader and stay an influencer if you can't protect it. What do you think happened in terms of this crazy woke shit that's invaded the

military i never thought i would see it in the military i thought that would be the one sector of our society that would be immune to that kind of ridiculous ideology i mean i just think that people um you know people have gotten, they get offended by everything. And I don't know, like I. But why? Well, because. Coming from a person who's served and been in combat duty and experienced the horrors, like real, real problems.

Like, what is it about that? I mean. This woke shit. Again, I just think that that life like we have first world problems right and that's that's it right like uh it's the ultimate first world problem right well it is and that's all of our most of our problems here are ultimate first world problems and you know like but again you have to understand like like my talk about my generation, um, you know, my generation, we, I mean, we, we had access to internet, right? Like, like everything was kind of instant

gratification. I didn't have to go out and raise a garden and I didn't have to do the things that my grandparents had to do to, to be able to live and to be able, everything's convenient for me, but, but it doesn't mean that like, so these people who are, are portraying these problems, they, they are true problems to them and they are that big of a deal to them. But, but it's kind of like when you're looking at your kids, like when my daughter comes to me and she's like, you know, so-and-so he said this and it hurt my feelings and she's devastated. Um, it goes back to adversity. feelings and she's devastated it goes back to adversity that is the biggest problem she's ever dealt with and it is that big to her right just because it's not to me because I've dealt with all this other it is that big to her and

that's what's happening with everybody else it's like we have first-world problems here and they haven't had adversity and they haven't had to have that and so these things come up and instead of learning how to deal with them, we're trying to cater to them. Right. Instead of, you know, when people get offended by what I say, I always ask, was it, is it inaccurate? Um, it, was it offensive or was it that you just didn't like what I said? Mm. Did you just not agree with me? Because just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong. Well, some people get offended too easily.

And they don't want to hear that. But some people get upset at things too easily. And it's because they're making a problem that a lot of folks would think is not a very big problem. And they're turning it into a gigantic one in their head. Because they don't have real problems. it's not a very big problem and they're turning into a gigantic one in their head because they don't have real problems i mean i couldn't imagine going to my dad and telling him that somebody said something to me it hurt your feelings it hurt my feelings i couldn't imagine well you know that's an old expression you know the the hard times create hard men

hard men create easy times easy times create weak men weak men create hard times, easy times create weak men, weak men create hard times. And this is the cycle of existence. I remember when I was a kid, I was reading about the fall of the Roman Empire, and we were just talking about the excess of the Roman Empire during its demise. And I remember thinking, I wonder if that's ever going to happen here.

Because I remember thinking, like, every civilization in the past that was a great civilization, whether, you know, whatever it is, ancient Egypt or whatever ancient civilization that was this dominant, massive civilization, they all went away. They all, the ancient Greeks. And we're on the fast track. Yeah. Oh, my God And we're on the fast track. Yeah. Oh, my God, we're moving so fast. I mean, we're one of the youngest nations, and we're the superpower. Yes. Yeah.

We're, yeah, one of the youngest nations. And we're also unique in that we're a nation of immigrants. Yeah. It's a nation consisted entirely of people who moved here. Yeah. And, you know And obviously Native Americans as well. But the people that moved here are the bulk of the humans that are here. And it's so recent. I talked about it in my comedy special.

I said the United States was founded in 1776. People lived to be 100. I go, that's three people ago. It's three people ago. Three people ago. Three people ago, they decided to try to figure out how to create this new experiment. And look what we've gone through. Yeah, pretty wild.

Pretty wild, right? And I just think we have to keep that in mind. And again, but people are just so entitled, right? Like, you know, they – I don't know. Like we're the – I don't want this to sound terrible. We're the trust fund babies of the world. We are the trust fund babies of the world. Yeah.

You know what I mean? No, that's not – I don't think that sounds terrible at all. I think – I don't want to offend trust fund babies. You know what I mean? I think they need a little offending. But it's – we're spoiled. You know, I mean? I think they need a little offending. But we're spoiled. You know, we really are.

I used to say that about California, that California was like, we were the trust fund people when it comes to the weather because there's no weather in California. So no one has a real sense of what nature can do to you. And growing up in Massachusetts. Except those wildfires. Yeah, those wildfires are a motherfucker. Those are a wake-up call.

Those make people nicer. You know, in Massachusetts, when it would snow, those wildfires are a motherfucker. Those are a wake-up call. Those make people nicer. You know, in Massachusetts, when it would snow, everybody would kind of get together. You know, you'd help people. You see somebody pulled over to the side of the road, people would pull over and try to help them. They'd try to get them out of a ditch if they got stuck. They'd try to help push them or help shovel them.

That was the thing that people, like, you realize you could die out here. Like, when it's, you know, 10 below zero and it's the middle of fucking January and you see someone whose hazard lights are on and there's no one else on the road, you feel obligated to help that person. And there's a thing about nature where it makes you confront your own vulnerability,

your own mortality. And California doesn't get that very often. And I have this theory of, I don't know, I just believe that the more adversity you've gone through, the more hard times you've gone through, the more power you have to help others. The more struggle you've had, the more you can help others. Yes. You know, like in the more, because in the more vulnerability you have, right,

because to help somebody you have to be vulnerable. You just have to. To connect with somebody, you have to be vulnerable. Yeah. And people who have gone through stuff and came out of it, they have the power to be vulnerable because they know that they're gonna get through it yeah yeah it's um in order to get people to connect with you they have to understand that you've experienced some bad situations yourself it's not simply just that you know the right way to

go about things and one of things that Jaco does so well is talk about everything, everything, your own, you know, human shortcomings, your own doubts, your own fears, all those things, and then how to get through it. Yeah, I mean, like Jocko has this way of, and it's awesome, like he defuses you before you even know it, right? Like you could come in and just, it's just, he has this way of like, you could have this whole built up, you know, like if I'm, if I'm about to go nuclear, I call Jocko. Do you?

Yeah. He'll tell you. He'll tell you. We talked about on the last podcast and I'll call Jocko and, and he listens. He listens to you. So you kind of like, you're kind of like running around in a circle and telling him, I've got this whole plan built up, and this is how I see it. And then he lets you wear yourself out, and then he comes in and he talks logic.

I'll never forget, I called him this one time about this. I was so pissed off at some stuff stuff that had happened and i was like dude i'm gonna go over here i'd already had this plan that i'm gonna i'm gonna like it's on i'm ready to lose everything and um settle down dakota there it was he he listened and he goes uh okay he goes he goes check check and he said um well is he said, the only time you should fight or the only time you should go at or entertain this stuff with people is, is, is, is one way is if it's willing to, are you willing to lose everything? Are you willing to, are you willing to go all in? Because, you know, you do some, you, you do this and then they buck up to you. Well, you're going

to lose and look even worse if you don't do something and keep going, right? Like how far do you want to take it? And he's like, the only time it makes sense to engage in something like this is if you're willing to just say, Hey, look, I'm it's, it's worth me losing everything that I got my freedom, whatever it is. And he said, outside that it ain't worth it. And when it gets to that point, that that's your deciding factor. That's when it's time to engage yeah and I was like gosh man like he just he but he defuses you right like cuz he he's not gonna he can't let you wear yourself out and figure it out and then he just kind of helps you guide you

right like hits you with some logic some logic yeah well he's a leader you know Jocko is one of those rare people that's an actual, real, bona fide leader. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And you could talk to him about pretty much anything, and he'll be able to look at it rationally. Yeah. He's such a unique guy.

Such an incredible guy. He's a—that dude's done so much for me, just, you know, as a friend and, like, a guy. It's just that I owe dude's done so much for me just you know as a friend and like a guy is just that i owe jocko so much just think a lot of us do you know as a friend and just as an example as a example of you know the way he he likes to describe it extreme ownership ownership of everything failures successes you know He's the real deal. I hear people talk sometimes, like, I just want to be like Jocko. And I'm like, you'll never be like Jocko, but you can strive to be like Jocko. Jocko is a superhuman.

Yeah, good luck. I mean, you'd have to live his life, and you might not survive. That's the reality of a Jocko. It's like Jocko didn't have to make it. And all the things that he's gone through, same with you. All the things you've gone through, you didn't have to make it, you know, you did. And you're very fortunate that you did, but you don't make a person like you, you don't make a person like Jocko easily. It's not easy. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of like that iron sharpens iron, right?hmm yeah absolutely now um now this book is out like came out today oh today really no shit yeah that's probably why we

scheduled this huh yeah so when when it comes out what do you do now do you have to do like a book tour do you have to go I went on to a bunch of people yeah I mean I went on Andy for sellers podcast yesterday okay cool he was badass. I mean, Rob went out there. I was in St. Louis and then here today. Is that where he does his? Yeah.

Out there? Yeah. Yeah. He's an incredible guy. I'm friends with him online. I just chit-chat with him. Dude, he's such an incredible guy. Like, went out there to their facility and just, like, the culture he brings.

Like, he's just, you know, he's a guy that lives life on his own terms and he he cares about people and he's real thoughtful and he's very fucking smart. And he seems very smart. And he has a love of 1970 Chevelles like I do. He does. Yeah. His facility is crazy. His car is insane. So awesome.

That 70 Chevelle he has. Yeah. It's fucking beautiful. But yeah, his his message and the way he communicates online is like, I like it. And you know, like when you walk into places and you can tell a lot about the vision and the owner by the company, right? Especially a place like his big. Everywhere in that place was out at first form was just like crazy. Like just everything, great energy.

People were so nice. I mean, you could just tell that, that, that, that it was, it was awesome. And he's, he's a great guy. We did the podcast with him yesterday. So funny, so smart, just, and he cares, he cares about people and he, I mean, he cares about people. And that's what, that's what, that's how I judge people. It's like, do you care about people? How do you treat people? Cause that's really all that matters. Um, and so like, you know, this, you know, we're going out. I'm on here today and then we've got, you know, some still, some things tomorrow and this week and then, yeah.

So you just do like a tour. You going to do any like television shows or any of that stuff? No, I mean. It's kind of over for that stuff, isn't it? It's kind of over. Like it's the podcast game, right? Yeah. We did some, we've been doing podcasts for the last two weeks.

So, yeah. So just going around and just trying to spread the word about game, right? Yeah. We did some, we've been doing podcasts for the last two weeks. So, yeah. So just going around and just trying to spread the word about it, talk about it. Yeah. And how long you been doing a podcast now? So I do the American Party. I mean, I've been podcasting for like four years. Switched around to different formats. Like I used to do the interviewing and I just,

it's hard to get guests to rely on guests, right? So I do it with Dan Holloway. We do the American Party and it's just about like. You just talk. We just talk. It's about principles, right? You know, yeah. So I mean, it's just about principles.

It's about, you know, I don't care if you're left or right. Like, look, I just care if you're a good person. And that's pretty simple. Yeah, it's lots more simple than whether, you know, the left and right thing's complicated. It's like the reasons why people are left versus the reason why people are right. What do you define as left versus what do you define as right? You know, I think that's a, it's a complicated conversation. It's a complicated conversation. I don't even know if, if they're even loyal to that. Right.

And, and so it's just, you know, we, we do the American party podcast and we, we just, we try to break it down to, to looking at it from what's best for the people, what's best for people. And, and, you know, those are principles. Those are principles of, you know, to do good, to do good for others, to do good for yourself. You know those are principles those are principles of you know to do good to do good for others To do good for yourself. You know it's all this stuff. I I'm not smart enough to make things complicated So I just have to keep them simple Yeah, well, you know there's some people that love make making things more complicated they get off on it Confusion there. There's power when confusion. Yeah, there's like a rush in explaining things

in a way that baffles most people where you go, wait a minute, what are you saying exactly? And they're using all these fancy words and elaborating in a beautiful, pontificating in a beautiful way. It sounds good sometimes. Sounds good.

Sounds good. Sounds good, but it doesn't sound good if you don't know what the fuck they just said. Some people are too smart. I'll talk to them. I'm like, hold on, slow down. What did you just say? Can you break it down to where I understand it?

Talk to me like I'm five. Yeah. That's how I have to do everything. So you do it once a week? No, twice a week. Twice a week? Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so we do Wednesdays and Fridays.

I love it. I love it. You know, just to try to break down things that are going on and, like, how it's going to affect us, right? Like, does this really matter or not? I mean, how many times are we focused on things that really don't matter? A lot. And that's what I talk about, you know, in this book of, you know, so I'm a helicopter pilot. And so, like, I, you know, there's a lot of things going on when you're flying a helicopter.

you know, there's a lot of things going on when you're flying a helicopter. And if you try to focus on every single gauge while you're flying, like you're never, you can't get through all of them. But like, you know, I'm always looking out the windshield, 90% out the windshield. I use a nine in one technique. And so 90% out the windshield, making sure I'm not running into things. And then, you know, 10% inside looking at like three, three gauges that matter to me. Right. Because I know if those gauges are good, if something else goes wrong, I can auto rotate it down. Right. And it's the same thing in life. Like, let's just stay focused on what matters. Quit getting distracted on, on the, the static, stop giving things more legs than, you know,

are you having, are you having a bad day or do you have a bad life or are you having a bad day? Or are you having a bad moment? Right. Stop giving. Obviously we all have negative things and we all have obstacles in our lives, but like don't give it more power than it really is. Right. Than it deserves.

Than it deserves. Yeah. Yeah. There's a great expression that I've talked about before, but it's worth mentioning again. There's an expression, the worst thing that's ever happened to you

is the worst thing that's ever happened to you, no matter what it is. Like if you've had a sheltered life and the worst thing that ever happened to you is someone said something that hurt your feelings, that is the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And we see that with children, with little kids it's like because they haven't had a lot of life experiences and then we see people that have gone through hell and those

people you know i don't want my children to go through hell but those people are more resilient they're different they they have more they've they've got more life experiences that to judge it against so a thing like someone being mean to them you know if you grow up in some hard part some Eastern Bloc country where it's things are rough like you don't want to hear any that bullshit like that like just an insult that's not enough yeah that's the worst thing that's ever happened to them but we just have to like we have to stop trying to out victimize each other, right? Like, like, look, the words, like you said, look, the worst day of your life,

the worst day of my life is no more significant than the worst day of your life. They're both the worst days of our life. And if we stop trying to out victimize each other, see who's seen worse or done worse or been through worse. And we're just like, Hey, look like, like, Hey, here's what I've been through. Yeah, man, we can get get through this but there's a culture in this country unfortunately that has arisen you know within my lifetime of victim like there's just like a a currency to victimhood like the more things are stacked against you the more you get to complain about those things against you, the more you get to complain about those things stacked against you, the more you get to like wear it. It becomes your identity. Yeah. It becomes your identity. It's a problem. I mean, it is a problem. Right. And, uh,

because we've rewarded it, right. Like there's, and there's no accountability to, to, to get through it. And like, there's more reward to having that and being able to talk about it and being able to use as your identity than there is to put the work in to get better. Yeah. Right. Like, and a lot of times we just don't want to, that's what I'm fortunate about with my friends is my friends. I tell a story in here, um, about Tim, you know, when I was going through my divorce and when I first moved to Austin, on it was, on it was a critical piece to me. Um, it was kind of like the only stable, consistent place I could go to working out with Tim and Juan and, and, uh, and Eric and, and John Wolf and all of them, those guys like literally just, I knew if I could make it to the gym that I was going to have an hour or two hours, I'd be all right. And, um, and I'll never forget. I walked into Tim and I was like, man, I'm, we were doing some workout and I'm like, I'm,

I'm just fat. Right. Like just, just, just probably looking for some empathy. Right. And Tim looks at me and goes, yeah, and hey, check it out. People look at you as a warrior, and you need to look like one, so fix it. And it's like, you know, I didn't need him to be like, oh, no, man, it's okay. You know, you look all right. I needed somebody to sit here and tell me, like, hey, yeah, you know what? You're spot on. At least we identified the problem, so now it's time to get busy fixing it me like, hey, yeah, you know what? You're spot on. At least we identified the problem.

So now it's time to get busy. Yeah. Yeah. And that can be done. But it doesn't feel good. Yeah, that's the point, though. That's what fat shaming is all about. But don't you think it's offensive?

Don't you think I could have sit here and been offended by that? Oh, yeah, for sure. Your feelings could have been hurt and you could have went straight to the donut shop and been like, fuck him. I mean, this is one of the things we see today with a lot of people online, where they're this whole body positivity thing. It's like, it's such nonsense. Like, yes, it's awful if someone's mean to you purposely and hurts your feelings

and mocks you for the way you look because you're obese. Yes, that's not nice at all. But this whole idea that you love it and this is who you are and everybody should just accept it and then pretending that it's healthy, which is really weird. Like people will distort the reality of medical science and pretend that there's not like some real significant effect that obesity has on all parts of your body all sorts of things go wrong if you're obese but we send this message to people that body positivity is the way to go that it's

okay but it's not okay it's not you mean it's look it sucks if someone can point something out and like hey you have let this lapse. You have treated your body in a poor way. And because of that, you have a significant problem. And you got to do something about it. Like Tim said, do you fix it? That is, that's a reality of so many fucking people out there. And they don't ever get that speech. And they don't ever fix it.

And instead, they try to come up with reasons why it's okay to be obese and it's not okay to be obese it's terrible it's terrible for you it's terrible for the people around you it's because you're gonna you know selfish you're gonna get sick you're gonna get you know it's gonna be a real problem people don't want to hear it they want to think that somehow or another it's okay. And especially during the pandemic, like, my God, it's like one of the main factors for whether or not you're going to be healthy and whether or not you're going to survive this fucking thing. It's a, you know, one of the main factors was obesity. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And I just like, you know, the frustrating part to me

was just, I got it. I got it. Look, do whatever makes you feel safe. I'm in. Whatever. I don't care what that is. Right. Whatever it is. Whatever you've done, just do it. Do it.

I don't care. Leave me alone. And look, I'll just never forget, I was in the grocery store, and obviously I didn't have a mask on. I was being the selfish me. And, uh, I walked in, I wasn't around anybody, but like this woman was in, I mean, she was, she was very obese and her cart was, I mean, I remember looking in there and it was like just junk food. And she's like screaming at me telling me how

basically how much of a piece of shit i am for not having my mask on and i'm endangering everyone was there a mask mandate uh i mean they didn't tell me i mean i could go in the store without it so like they weren't nobody mentioned it to me that worked there right it was only people who were but either either way it was like a check i got it okay i'll put my mask on if you need me to put my mask on i wasn't on an airplane um yeah i'll put my mask on right if that makes you feel better i got you um but i just don't understand like why do we only look at parts of it like okay i'll put the mask on to protect you but if you want to protect yourself you should you should maybe start eating healthier.

You should maybe make healthier decisions all the way around. But that's hard to do. It's very easy to yell at you. Well, again, and that's what I felt like is so many people were blaming me for their problems. You know what I mean? Yeah. And look, obviously, I got it. It was real.

I got it. Check. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that like let's now that now that let's say we're I don't know if we're I don't know where we're at in the pandemic anymore. Like, I don't know. But can I walk around and when I see somebody who looks very, very unhealthy and I know that the science supports that, can I walk up to him and be like, hey, you don't need to be eating that? No, because that only affects them. The thing about you with the mask is that, you know, I don't think masks, especially most of the masks that people use, unless you're wearing an N95 mask, which most people aren't, like a really snug fit N95 mask, I don't think it's really doing much.

Those cloth masks and especially those surgical masks, I mean, I don't think it's doing much. Those cloth masks that you wear over, like it's almost like these, like, what are they called? Bandanas. Bandanas over their face? Yeah, nonsense. Well, yeah. It's nonsense. And there's studies that are showing that it's nonsense.

Statistically, it doesn't really have that much of an effect. Again, like I had Michael Osterholm on recently, and he was explaining why an N95 mask works. And that it has like, what did he say? It was like electrical static. What did he say about why the things actually cling to the mask? Like it prevents transmission because. Like it throws static charge. Yeah.

So it's something about like if you are sick and you have one of those on, it actually does significantly reduce the amount of viral load comes out of your mouth. But most people aren't wearing those. They're wearing these bullshit masks. And here's the thing, man. It's like if you want to go to a place and you want to, I mean, if there's a mask law and you're not wearing a mask, that's one thing. But if you want to go to a place and it's optional and you've got your mask on and other people don't and you're screaming and yelling at them.

Like you're just, especially if you're obese and you've got a cart full of shit, you're concentrating on the wrong thing. So we're, I mean, but we're like, but again, where's the self-responsibility? There's none. But it's so easy to point a finger at mean old Dakota running around with no mask on. You piece of shit. What the fuck's wrong with you? Yeah. I mean, what number in the country, as far as the world, how unhealthy?

Like, we're one of the richest countries in the world. What level? Where are we at on the health scale? That's a good question. Let's guess, let's guess. Let's say. 17th. Or no, as far as, no, let's go this.

The most, as far as unhealthy, like the unhealthiest, I bet we're number seven or six or seven. In terms of the unhealthiest country? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say we're probably top 10 unhealthiest. And as far as healthiest, I think we're probably top 20. No. No?

I don't think so. Really? I don't know. Yeah, you're probably right. It's probably top. Yeah, there's like a- There's a bunch. How many countries are there?

No, that's way above my pay grade. How many countries are there? A lot. 200? I want to say there say close to 200. Close to 200, something like that. I think it's in the 190s. So I would say we're-

Top 100? For healthiness? No, no way. I want to think about people like me. So I get cocky. I go, we're fucking healthy. Take a lot of vitamins to work out every day? No, we don't.

Like a small percentage of us do. Yeah. All right. I'll say as far as obesity, we're top 10. We're top 10 in the most obese country. And as far as bad health, I would say we're top 10 as far as bad health. For sure. As far as good health, probably top 30 or something.

What do you got Jamie I'm trying to just looking this up is a tough problem real fast because what what's unhealthy so like I typed in unhealthy it's like pollution okay let's say this oh right right right environmental factor yeah let's say this what percentage of people in the world? I found why is the USA only the 35th healthiest country in the world? All right, so we're top 35. Out of 169. Okay.

What about the opposite? Instead of the top 35 in terms of healthy, what about in terms of sick? Like, for bad health outcomes. Here, I'm... Like, where do we... Did you find something? Here's the top 10 unhealthiest countries in the world. Yeah, but that's...

This is as far as healthiest. What about unhealthiest? That's the first question, Jamie. Is America one of the first unhealthiest countries? Okay, obesity and diabetes. For decades, the United States has had the highest obesity rate among high-income countries. Wow. High prevalence rate for obesity are seen in U.S. children and in every age group

they're at. So the highest obesity rate amongst high income countries. We're number one. Go to click on top. We'll go top 20. I already did. We weren't in there. We weren't? No. So on this one though, but yeah. That's what I was going through. Oh, what is the most unhealthy country? That's that's again i was going through that already and once you get to number five it started making i you can't get to it is it an environmental issue it's a so it's like pollution in terms of unhealthiness yeah there's a lot going into that question isn't that crazy though yeah yeah well we're the most obese but that's a weird thing because we have all this access to food and a lot of it is really unhealthy and it's easy to get like the easiest food to get

is like you could just pull into a burger place get a milkshake fucking sugary soda but we also have access to the most healthy yeah food in the world but it's not as easy and it's it's cheap so it's not as easy. And it's not as cheap. It is. It's also, it's like, you know, people don't have a lot of time, unfortunately. The other thing about us is the time requirements that our job takes. Like, your job takes a lot of fucking time.

Isn't that, is that the narrative that we've, like, is that what we just, I mean, I mean, I think you're a busy person. Yeah, I'm a busy person, but not compared to a person that has a job that they hate. That's the thing. It's like you're busy, but you're busy doing something that robs you of your soul. And that's a lot of people.

A lot of people are out there busy, but they're busy doing something that drains them. When I leave here, I'm like, that was a good conversation. Dakota's cool. That was fun. That's how I'm like, that was a good conversation. Dakota's cool. That was fun. That's how I'm going to feel. I'm not going to feel drained. I'm going to feel like that was a good conversation. I want to do stand-up tonight.

Same thing. But have you always had that? No. No, when I was younger, I didn't have that. And when you were younger, did you still work out? Yeah. So my point is that whether you want to do something or whether you don't, you'll find an excuse. That's true.

But also the reality is like my struggle years were not that long. Like, like while I was struggling and while I was working on, I was young. I had tons of energy. I was driven and I had a plan where I wanted to get somewhere. I wanted to have success. And fortunately, it came true. And I did have success. And I did do all that stuff.

But the people that haven't and they're obese now, they have a bunch of shit going on. First of all, they have low energy levels. It's very difficult to get something done when you have low energy levels. It's so hard because whatever motivation i need i mean i'm kind of on autopilot now like when i get up in the morning like i know i'm gonna work out it's not like whether or not i can't well maybe i'll blow it off today i fucking never say that i get in there i always work out so it's not like whether or not it's gonna get done it's gonna get done it's just it's a part So it's not like whether or not it's going to get done. It's going to get done.

It's just, it's a part of, it's brushing my teeth. It's taking a shit. It's normal. I go out there. But everything's habitual. It is. But my point is, like, I have momentum and I have health, right? So I'm fit.

I eat right. I take a lot of vitamins. I'm doing all the right things in that regard. So I have the energy to go out there and work out. I'm doing all the right things in that regard. So I have the energy to go out there and work out for obese people. It's so fucking hard because your body's drained. So you're telling me, do you think that majority, these people we're talking about, how much time do you think they spend on their phones?

They spend a lot of time on their phones, but that's easy to do. What I'm saying is it's not as easy for me. This is just my own personal realization, my understanding of the human body. When you're really fat, it's very hard to get going. It's very hard. Their bodies are fucked up. They don't have the energy to do it. And that's just the reality of what it means to be an obese person.

So what they have to do is force themselves. They don't have this feeling like, ah, I can't wait to get to the gym. That feeling is not there. Their feeling is, okay, I know that this is a process. It's a long, brutal process, but I must begin it. And it must be a part of every day. And that's the only way I'm going to get out of this. Hold it up, Doug. I mean, I don't, I don't wake up and have that. And I work out six days a week. I don't, I mean, and I built a gym on my property, like three, a hundred yards from my house. Um,

and I still have to fight myself to get up to go work out at it. It's a choice. Bro, Goggins talks about it. That's what his priority is. Who the fuck has more discipline than Goggins? He goes, sometimes I see my shoes, I stare at those motherfuckers for half an hour. I could see him in his house angry,

looking at his sneakers. And then I put him on and I say, stay hard. Stay hard, motherfucker. Dude, he sends me some of the most hilarious text messages. My favorite video of him is, you know, obviously he's running. I mean, dude, I don't know if he ever sleeps, but he's running and he's like, you know, I'm out here and somebody just pulled up next to me It's a hundred hundred percent humidity and it's whatever degrees and he's like and he looked at me

He said why are you here or why are you running or something? Yeah, and I looked at him and I said cuz you're fucking not But he needs haters he likes haters he does he enjoys him he said cuz you're fucking not He likes lazy people and he likes haters do they motivate. He enjoys them. He said, because you're fucking not. He likes lazy people and he likes haters because they motivate him. Yeah. He's in a constant war in his mind against weakness, against his own weakness, against other people's weakness. Isn't that what I was talking about?

I mean, it's kind of the same thing, right? Yeah. Where you're just, I just talk to myself different. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I mean, mean i'm not that's what i respond to i respect the fuck out of that dude and i love him to death but i don't think his mindset's healthy he's never at peace maybe he's never at peace maybe i mean it's probably not healthy if he was going to be like a youth pastor but for him him to achieve the goals he wants, I mean, he's doing it. Not just achieve the goals he wants, but here's what's maybe as important with him is that Goggins inspires so many people to action.

There's so many people that watch his videos and they go, that is an exceptional human being. So exceptional. But it's because he's not like this. He's not trying to be well-groomed. He's not trying to like worry about offending people. Like David Goggins is so clear that he doesn't give a fuck what you think about him. And whether you're watching his video or not, he's going to still be getting after it. Yeah, it's real too.

That his attitude about those things is 100% real. I've never met him. Oh, really? No, I'd love to meet dogs, but he's like, I watch his videos and I just like, I wish I could be that. I would love to introduce you to him. You'd love him. He's a great guy. He's a lot of fun, too.

You would think that he'd be like, stay hard all the time, like constantly, but no, he laughs a lot. He's a fun guy. You know, he's he's a fun guy you know he's he's all you know he's always he's always working out right so he's always like drained of all the bullshit that a lot of people carry around with them a lot of people carry around some unnecessary bullshit that they could get rid of with a hard workout yeah a hard workout like you know the things if you ever notice like the things that bother you like that are on your mind before you start working out versus when you're done. Totally different.

You got a totally different perspective. Totally different life. It's like life is okay. Like a fucking brutal workout. After it's over, you're like, whew. Yeah. I'm going to be all right. Yeah, it's therapy.

You know, honestly, that wasn't that big of a deal. It's not that big of a deal. It's like that's a form of therapy. And it's also a form of therapy that requires you to engage and to work. And I think that is just as much an important aspect of it as anything, is that you're forcing yourself to do something that's very difficult. And through that, you get this alleviation of anxiety and stress and all the good stuff, and it's great for your body.

But also, it's great for your body but also it's great for your mind because your mind did the work you made your mind your mind is what tells your body what the fuck to do you know my friend john joseph he's um he's the lead singer of the crow mags and he's done a bunch of shit ton of triathlons and a bunch of ironmans and one of the things that I love about what he loves about triathlons and Ironman, he says, because your mind has to tell your body who the fuck the boss is. You know? Your mind. Because your body's like, oh, this is bullshit. Let's quit.

And your mind's like, fuck you. Keep going. Your mind can control the body. That's what I love. Yeah. going your mind can control the body that's what I love yeah I love I love those workouts where it's just like where it's like anybody could do it and you know you could take off I got try to do everything but like these workouts I'm talking about for time right because you know it's like you can take off

because you can get through anything you can pace yourself you know all these things and for me I just like I like to get to that dark place and I like to just get in there. And I just like to, you know, for me, I don't, I'm not going to go talk. Like I'm not very good at talking to people about my problems. Um, I feel like I'm an inconveniencing them. And then when I verbalize them, they're not that big. So, um, you know, um, so for me, like, this is kind of like my time to my counseling session with myself where I don't have to say anything. And at the end of it, I come out and I feel better, you know, but I, I'm physically beat. I'm mentally, uh, just, I love just getting to that dark place where it's just like, oh yeah, this, this is where I like it. And I come out of it and I'm like, done. I'm ready to get after it again. Like I'm relieved, you know. But I got to, sometimes I just got to, I have to get in there. I just have to push myself harder and just be like, no, like you're, I'm going to quit on my terms.

Yeah. I'm going to stop on my terms. Not when my body gets tired. I'm going to stop when I say I'm tired. Yeah. when I say I'm tired yeah well I think with a lot of people what's going on is society's created these tensions and these problems that our body doesn't totally understand I think our body thinks of conflicts as being danger to our body dang you know physically dangerous conflicts that's what I think

our body thinks of conflicts of anything that you've got that's going on is giving you stress our body thinks of conflicts, of anything that you've got that's going on that's giving you stress, our body thinks we're going to have to go to war. Like you're going to have to fight off a neighboring tribe. You're going to have to fight off a predator. There's going to be, the way we evolved as an intelligent being, the way we got to today is we had to fight off a lot of shit.

And so your body is programmed to fight off a lot of shit. And so your body is programmed to fight off a lot of shit. Now, all of a sudden you get to this place in 2022 where you're not really fighting anything off, but you have those same feelings. And I think until you wreck your body and just tax it out, it can't think rationally. I think all those people that have like major anxiety and major problems and don't have a rigorous workout schedule, I think they do themselves a disservice because I don't think you're able to think as clearly. Do you think that like – I mean how many people do you think are out there that have never been punched in the mouth? A lot. And go back every generation, right?

Like my dad's generation. They all got punched. And go back every generation, right? Like my dad's generation. They all got punched. And don't you think? Because like, don't you think like, so I believe the biggest issue in just America, just talk America, is there's no accountability, right? But there is no accountability without conflict. And everybody's so scared of conflict because like now it's to the point to where I can talk shit to you on over text. Yes. You can't punch me in the mouth over text. Exactly. And so like, there's no accountability and we've, we've dodged all this. I mean, I mean, I remember

like when I was in high school, I mean, we would fight and then we're friends the next day. And, uh, I mean, you know, that's how it was. And and now it's like it's just crazy shit right but but it's like no there's no accountability and it's also we're the same thing we're the same animal that we were your dad's generation your grandpa's generation we're the same creature but now we have different rules and those rules aren't necessarily compatible with the way our body's set up no i mean we mean, we're built to fight. Yeah. Well, it's not whether or not we're built to fight. We're accustomed to it in our lives. It's a part of what got us here to 2022. This is how the human race is here. It's not like we just

laid down whenever conflict came because we'd all be dead. But in how many times? So what happens, you know, like you take these generations as we, you know, we're scared of conflict. Life is conflict. There's a lot of conflict in life. There's a lot of like. And there's a lot of lessons that you learn through conflict. Well, exactly. What's going to happen when, you know, God forbid that this country and two more generations, somebody comes here that wants conflict? The real fear is that that happens, right?

Or the real fear is the conflict comes now and we're not prepared for it. And by the time we adjust, it's too late. Yeah. I mean, that's the issue is what would it take to snap America back into a position where we value physical resiliency, we value discipline, we value – and it's a common thing. It's common that people exercise and are fit i mean imagine what you do and imagine what i do and what jaco does and tim kennedy does imagine if the whole country adopted a way of life where you eat healthy you train almost every day and you think about your problems you think about accountability you think about your personality you think about your problems, you think about accountability, you think about your personality, you think about interpersonal conflicts you've been in with friends or with

coworkers or what have you, and you try to do better constantly. We'd be an infinitely better country. That's not infinitely better. It's not good for, it's not good for business though. Why isn't it good for business? You buy things, I buy things. Yeah. yeah but i mean like what's business when you're not depressed and when you're not you know when you don't have anxiety you know when you feel better you have more energy and i mean listen it just it's uh i just mean like pharmaceutical business yeah i mean i just think that i just think that everything goes back to you know i mean everything goes back convenience and things like that i mean obviously it obviously it's nice, but you know, the, the, the more people rely on other, like these other things to, to do in their daily life,

there's more money to be made there. Right. Yeah. And I just think it's, it's just like, I don't know. I mean, you can't tell people, Hey, look like, yeah. I mean, it's just so tough right now. And it's like so tough because like I'm raising my daughters in this. And it's like, what is it going to look like for them? Well, it's definitely different than it was for us. But I'm wondering, you know, if we're going to figure this out the way we figured out every other generation and learn from the mistakes of the past generations and get better at it. better at it. I'm still optimistic although I do see a lot of fucking really troubling shit

with the way people are handling stuff in society today. I mean, yeah. America, we're going to be fine. Allegedly. No, we'll be fine. We'll be fine. I'll put everything on it. We'll be fine. Yeah, I mean, for sure. You're not worried about China

or Russia or any of this crazy stuff? You don't think Putin is capable of launching a nuke? No. I mean, where is he You're not worried about China or Russia or any of this crazy stuff? You don't think, like, Putin is capable of, like, launching a nuke? No. I mean, where is he going to launch it? To us? I think it's possible that there could come a time where Putin is experiencing so much pushback that he decides to go nuclear. So it's kind of like here, right? Like, it's, you know, when, I mean, and Milley even

admitted this. Who did? General Milley. Yeah. Joint Chief of Staff. What did he say? When he told China that he would call them before he nuked, like it went under Trump. Well, that was when he was talking about Trump. Yeah. So again, again, you know, if, yeah, if, if Putin himself was the only person that had to, to launch that nuke, maybe. But there's still the, like, if Putin launches a nuke on us, what's going to happen right behind it? Everybody in, in Russia is about to suffer. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that like that aspect of, that aspect is, that's why North Korea rocked the nuke. Right. Like like these nukes. I just don't think maybe I'm just being optimistic.

they're sure that it's not going to affect them. But I think that like the humanization factor of, oh, I'm, I'm going to push this, I'm going to support, and I'm going to have to push this nuke button or whatever, whatever it is, key or whatever. And, but I also know that as soon as I do that, like, I'm going to get the first hit, but my family's going to suffer and everybody here's going to suffer. I just, again, like they're worried about him dropping nukes inside of Ukraine. Well, what he said, and this is where it gets disturbing, what he said is that if anybody supports Ukraine and, you know, the idea of NATO moves weapons into Ukraine and points him at Russia, I believe his quote was something to the nature of they will face horrors the likes of which the world has never seen. I mean, so is he committing suicide?

Yeah. But I mean, look, how old is he? How old is he? But that's something. How old is he? How old is Putin? Is he 70? 60?

70? Yeah, he's probably maybe 60. Probably 70. 70? 69? 69. Okay, so who knows what his health is like? Who knows how much time he's got left?

I mean, when you've got a guy who's a dictator. But then you've got people under him who have to push the button. How does that work over there? Do they have a similar situation? I mean, somebody has to do it. Right. I mean, he's not doing it. I mean, it ain't like a rifle.

But if he orders the first, I mean, hasn't he given them orders to get close, to get ready? Hasn't he put some sort of a nuclear? What was his order that he gave out? Up the level of readiness or whatever. I don't know. What does that mean? I mean, maybe they point them. I don't know.

Maybe they get them aimed in the right direction. Listen, the human race has nuked countries. We have. Not us, obviously. It was before our time. We're the only ones. Well, that's enough. in the right direction listen the human race has nuked countries we have not us obviously it's we're the only time we're the only ones well that's enough it's just like listen it's not that long ago i mean it seems like a long time ago 1947 but if you look at in terms of like the overall time that humans have been on this planet that's pretty recent but if you look at roman history or greek history like a 50 year 60, 70 year gap in between something is not much. But you also had like we also had the support like nobody like this had affected everybody.

Right. And like nobody like we didn't worry about somebody rocking a nuke back at us. We didn't know if they had it. Right. So now we know. We know everybody who's got the nukes. Yeah. And so, and everybody knows, like, who's got them, who's got what.

I mean, it's all obvious. But you know that during the 60s, there was some generals that were legitimately thinking about launching nukes against Russia, against China, against Cuba. There was real talk about this. Like, that's what the whole Dr. Strangelove movie is about. We actually talked about it yesterday. It really was based on real people that had these ideas

and thought they were actually going to wind up doing that. I mean, I just – look, anybody can do anything. Like people can do anything. I just don't think that – I mean, maybe. Maybe. I just don't see like – when they're talking about nukes inside of Ukraine right now. I mean, so, but, I mean, you talk about Putin literally losing it. I mean, he's done.

Like, if he drops a nuke 100%, he's done. Is he, though? Because what if he says, I'm going to keep doing this unless you guys back the fuck off. But I did it once. So what do you think? What happens then? But honestly, what happens then? Because then we going to keep doing this unless you guys back the fuck off, but I did it once. So what do you think? What happens then? But honestly, what happens then? Because then we go to war, then everybody dies, right? If we just launch missiles at him and he launches missiles at the United States, mutually assured destruction, right?

Do you think if one nuclear bomb goes off somewhere that that would automatically mean a nuclear war? Or do you think people would try to still negotiate? Depends on where he sends it. Right. So, I mean, like, do you think for one second, and I don't know, like these are legit questions, right? Do you feel like he's going to drop it in Ukraine while all of his people are there and that his own people aren't going to turn on him and be like, what the fuck? I don't know. I mean, I feel like if he pulls out of Ukraine, pulls the troops out of Ukraine and then nukes it. I mean, it sounds crazy. I don't think, look, obviously I'm not a fucking, I mean, obviously if he's pulling military analyst, I'm not a person who really, but what I'm saying is who the fuck thought that

we were going to have a hot war with Russiaussia invades ukraine with tanks and and jets and they're shooting missiles new apartment buildings that's fucking crazy and nobody thought that was going to happen just a few months ago and now it's real yeah i mean again i'm with you i mean we we went in we've gone into iraq i mean you know i mean i just don't see i just I mean? I just don't see him going nuclear. I don't see it, but it's possible. I mean, anything's possible. But that's the thing. It's not just possible.

We're in a war. They are, rather. He's in a war right now. This is a real war. Ukraine and Russia are in a real war. That scares the fuck out of me, man. I mean, China is the one that scares the fuck out of me, man. I mean, China is the one that scares me.

That scares me too. I mean, China scares me. I mean, I think Russia, you know, I think Russia's kind of showed their hands, right? Like, Russia's kind of been like, to my generation, the guy in the bar that, you know, you walk into, you've never seen him fight, but everybody's like, oh, don't mess with that guy, right?

Like, don't, you just don't ever even mess with him, right? Everybody's been like, well, why? Oh, you know, he's a badass. And I think Putin's more screwed because he's kind of showed that, I mean, if he can't take on Ukraine, he better not try to come to anybody else. Unless he's going nuclear. Unless he's going nuclear. Well, again. Yeah.

Unless he's going nuclear. That's the thing that's fucked is like when he said- I don't think China would even support him going nuclear. Do they have to? Look, if he's going nuclear, it's a suicide mission, right? Yeah. The thing is like you got to always be afraid of someone who is a dictator, who has ultimate power, who's also a psychopath.

And that seems to be all those boxes get checked in this scenario yeah you know i mean i'm with you i don't know man like i want i want the world to be a better place than it was before and it just there's a real possibility that it won't be you know the thing that every civilization is worried about, like when you talk about the possibility of the advancement of the human race, the one big dilemma is if we don't blow ourselves up. That comes up all the time. Whenever people talk about the future, like what is the world going to be like in a million years if we don't blow ourselves up?

That's what they always say. Like, will we get to a point where there is peace and harmony and we no longer have war? No more conflict. No. Impossible? Yeah. Why?

Just nature of human beings? Yeah, I mean, it's just the nature of human beings, right? I mean, there's just no chance. There's no chance of us getting to a place to where there's no war. Yeah. There's too much. A, again, and I said it earlier, there's too much money to be made on it, right? And look, and think about, said earlier there's too much money to be made on it right um and look and and think about yeah there's too much money to be made on it um and

and you don't think that putin likes making money i think you think that's not a factor you know how much money he has well i mean they say they say he has fucking untold billions of dollars um but i just i just don't think that like, I just don't see, I don't know, I mean, again, the last person on the face of the planet that needs to be talking military strategy

is probably me. I'm right next to you. We're both last in line. It's fun to talk about it. It is. But I just don't see, I just, unless he's suicidal, I just, I don't see.

I would hate to have this conversation or go back and listen to this conversation a year from now after a nuclear bomb's gone off. And we're like, wow, we didn't even see it coming. I'm just saying that the real fear that people have about civilizations not reaching their full potential is natural disasters or self-destruction do you ever see and again i don't know i'm just asking a question do you ever see somebody yeah i mean somebody who's willing because like you know you know suicidal sometimes i don't know suicidal people that usually just hurt themselves sometimes, right? I mean, obviously there's a difference. I don't think it's just suicidal.

What do you think it is? It's like you want to leave your mind. Like, everyone's afraid of that. That was the whole plot of that Stephen King book. What the fuck was that book? They made it into a movie with Christopher Walken, The Dead Zone. There was a guy who could see the future. And there was a guy who was running for president

and he could see that this guy who was running for president was going to launch the nukes. And that launching those nukes was going to cement their name into history, which I think for some people is a powerful motivating factor, believe it or not. I mean, history has changed up all the time so I wouldn't bet on that.

Yeah but especially as you're getting older, if you, what keeps a guy going when you're 69, you've been running Russia for decades and you have untold billions of dollars, like what keeps a guy going? I mean I hope that, I mean again, my friends, my family, still being able to, gosh, enjoy my kids, right? Like, enjoy my grandkids.

Yeah, but you're not a dictator. You know, I think we have to think in terms of, like, dictators, like homicidal dictators. There's a lot of dictators that they've done horrific genocidal things. Ruthless, ruthless people. I mean, but, you know, if that's the case, I mean, we're going to have to be worrying about Iran. Yeah.

I mean, North Korea. Yeah. Like, at the point that that dude gets sick, like, I mean, I could see it on, like, if Putin got diagnosed with a terminal illness. Yes, but that's the thing. Like, what if he has one? Did you see the podcast that I did with Yeonmi Park?

She was a woman who escaped North Korea. Oh, she escaped over there. Bro. Yeah. You listen to her account of what North Korea was like and growing up there, it's horrific. Horrific. It's terrifying.

And the fact this guy has complete control of his population through just complete fear. They're so tiny over there, she was talking to me about, how little everybody is, and she's so frail. She's, like, when you, like, shake her hand, like, her, everything is so small. Her bones are so small, and you realize, like, she didn't get enough food.

That's why everybody's so small over there. They're fucking starving. And, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah. How do you fix it? How do you fix it?

I mean, he keeps that population terrified, terrified and under control. And that's the thing is, it's like that's happening right now in 2022. And one of the things about us is we're so like, if someone lives in a wonderful, really safe neighborhood and you just think this is the world, the world is like my neighborhood because that's all I experience. And that's your point of reference.

Your point of reference is this great neighborhood that you live in where everything's safe and you never really have to worry about anything. At the same time, there's places in the world like what was that? what was that there was there was Shane Smith from Vice was telling us about this one city that has the most murders I think it was in Pakistan it's one city where there's more like murders and more hits like you know like people pay people like it's a shockingly low amount of money to commit murder and they just have them constantly all the time. And it's just the reality of living there. I think Karachi, was that where it was? But we have all these things in America.

What's the murder capital of the world, Jamie? Yeah, we do. But it's small places right like south side chicago when i typed in the city in the world with the most murders top three were all in mexico whoa that's now right yeah i mean so yeah but you know we like yeah i mean it's it's i don't know i just sometimes i do get frustrated i mean i love this country i mean i do believe we're the greatest country on the face of the planet. I mean, I believe that with everything I have. But sometimes we, we, I mean, we, we, we do, we do think we're better or like we, we look at others and we're kind of doing the same shit sometimes. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I mean, just we, you know, we, I don't know.

It's a good for me, good for thee but not for me kind of mentality sometimes. And I just. We were pulling up a chart the other day of the amount of drone strikes that have gone on while the Ukraine thing is happening. That the United States is participating in. It's pretty fucked. It's fucked. It's pretty fucked. Like, fucked. It's pretty fucked. There's a lot of drone strikes going on right now all over the world that the United States participates in.

Because you're thoughtful on this, so I want to know. You're always thoughtful. But do you think, because I keep hearing this, do you think that this issue that's going on in Ukraine, do you think it would have happened with Donald Trump? I don't know why it's happening, so I can't answer that. I don't know what Trump would have done differently. It would just be pure speculation. The people that want to think that Trump was a better leader want to think that, oh, the Russians wouldn't fuck with Trump. He's the only guy that Russia hasn't done any invasions

during his four years in office, but that could just be luck. But don't you think it's kind of weird? And again, I want to make this clear. I don't care either way, just on either one. But don't you think it's kind of weird that like they tried to pin russia on trump and biden on ukraine before any of this broke out yeah i mean you know what i mean yeah well the russia trump thing was crazy because um they got into his servers. They hired people to hack into their campaign.

While he was president, they hacked into their computers. They planted evidence that tried to implicate him in the shady dealings with Russia. It wasn't just that they wanted the Clinton campaign. It wasn't just that they were spying on him it was that they were yeah like let's google that and so don't google what what has been proven about um who was it that uh it came up with the information and it just came out and like two weeks later you got this going on yeah very quickly And don't you think it's kind of crazy? People weren't upset about it. That's what's the most fucked up.

The Democrats weren't freaking out. They weren't saying, wait a minute, this is outside of the law. This is a horrific violation of our laws and our boundaries of our ethics, what we think should be done and not done by someone who's a leader. You want to find people who are actually committing crimes, not pin crimes on people. But again, like, you know, you just don't think it's just so weird. And I don't know if there's any correlation to it, but I just so weird that like they were trying to plant stuff on Trump with Russia. Right. And we know for a fact that Hunter Biden was taking shit tons

of money from Ukraine. Well, it's from a company in Ukraine, right? Well, of course. But that's the question is like, does that company represent the government or is that company just, I mean, is it just like Chevrolet, just a corrupt, I mean, not the Chevy's corrupt, but you know what I mean? Just a company. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what was going on there. I don't either. But there seems to be, for sure, some sort of shady dealings going on when he was getting all that money, and it doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

Could be. What was the – are you looking? And then it's like, you know, you see that and it's just. I think they fucking all talk to foreign leaders. They do whatever the fuck they can if they think it's going to help their career. It's going to help their campaign. It's going to help them get over on their rivals. There's a lot of that going on.

And I think that's one of the reasons why Trump ran in the first place is because he was on the other side of that. Like he had to pay the Clintons to come to his wedding. It's that kind of shit. Was it his wedding or was it someone else's wedding? Was it Dara's wedding? No. Is this the thing? What you need to know about the John Durham filing that Trump world is fuming over.

And what is this? Business? I'm trying to ask if this is even what you were talking about so we can dig into the rest of the story. Yeah, it's a Durham filing. So even looking into this now, depending on what link I click, it's- What lick you click? Link I click. It's filled with bias, so like-

Okay. Yeah, well, this is definitely a biased website. Yeah, it's just crazy. But they're biased towards things being inflamed. So where should I go then? That's a good question. Because I've typed in what has been proven. Durham, yeah.

What's a good way to look at this? None of them. Some of them have to be accurate. Do they? What we know about the Durham probe, Hillary Clinton's responsibility for the Durham probe. Who's going to have written that unbiased article to find? I don't know. Do you got anything Who's going to have written that unbiased article to find? I don't know.

Do you got anything that's going both ways? I was starting to read through that, so if you give me a minute. Yeah, I mean, it's just, I don't know. It's just so, like when you start looking at it. It's dirty. That is Watergate, right? Wasn't that Watergate?

They were spying. That was the whole reason why dick nixon got out of office because he was fucking spying yeah yeah that's you're not supposed to do that but now it's like i don't know but it's just like we talked about we talked we talked about in those relationships like you know you you you do something and then that oh my gosh i can't believe this happened like it's like the worst thing ever and then it just happens over and over and you kind of just get numb to it right and it's like with with politics now it's like they're i don't know what you could do to to get for it to be like oh my gosh right like you know i mean can you imagine if what like bill clinton if he got a

blow job today in the white house it'd be. He's not getting impeached. No chance. Like they would probably brace him up as a hero. Yeah, they would come up with some reason why he was just a hypersexual individual who was tempted by his genetics and it's not his fault. I got one thing that might already be a mistake. There was a filing that happened last week that's gotten this back in the news.

Right. When the initial spying happened on Trump, wasn't it because of the Obamas? Like Obama was in office and they were spying on the candidates. I think that was the original part. According to this, the New York Times says that they changed that. I don't know who they, like the Trump team, I guess. They were initially saying it was the Obamas, and now they're saying it was the Clintons team that was doing the spying.

Right, but maybe they thought it was the Obamas. They knew it was the Democrats, perhaps, and then we thought it was the people that were in power, and it turns out it's not the people in power. It was Clinton because she was running against Trump. I mean, that doesn't necessarily. that doesn't make sense though because she how that means that she's in control the fbi or whoever's doing that well she's just a secretary she wasn't just a candidate she was she wasn't i mean i don't think the secretary of state you have to give that up though to become

the candidate yeah but the connections that she had with those people ours if she is the favorite to win the president and the presidency and she was the connections that she had with those people the only question you got to ask is in this whole thing is do you do you think obama knew yeah i think he knows everything well of course but he also fucking hated the idea of trump being president he thought trump was you know a scoundrel i mean You remember that fucking White House press conference dinner? It was kind of hilarious where he says to Trump, I'm one thing you'll never be, president of the United States. Like, oh, my God, you got it in that guy's craw. That's probably why he became the president.

Oh, for sure. Probably stuck in his fucking head. He's like, I'll show you, motherfucker. Yeah. You know, the thing that scares me is that whether you like Trump or hate him, he polarizes the country. Like he's not a Republican like Ron DeSantis. I think there's a lot of people who don't like Ron DeSantis, but he's not polarizing the way Trump is. I mean, he's still polarizing, but he's not.

People don't fucking hate him in the same way that they hate trump trump i don't think yeah i mean trump was exhausting yeah you know and it's constantly in arguments and fights with people and going after them and rosie o'donnell and girls he banged and all the crazy crazy things to concentrate on you know it's like god man i mean stuff he said oh my god it was hilarious look if he was if he wasn't the president and he wasn't a real threat that's the thing that really fucked him because before that the guy was loved yeah he was crazy and a lot of people hated him but for the most part he was loved trump i uh i i felt like i felt like the country was safe like you know i wish i knew that was true i mean i don't know if it's true or not but like i felt for me

like i felt like i mean i felt like that you know what i'll say this i think just the unknown factor about him made america safer because enemies did not want to even mess with him well he's definitely wild the wild factor to look to Kim Jong Un we called him little rocket man he said we have a nuclear button to our nuclear buttons are way better here's the other side I guess was to say Pavlich this is the hill Katie Pavlich says it was always spying so what does this mean here it kind of just goes into the story about what starts at the beginning. I think like April 10th, 2019, this is what was said. It goes into.

Okay, here's the quote here. It says, for the same reason we're worried about foreign influence in elections, we want to make sure that during the elections, I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. It's a big deal, Barr testified. Spying did occur. Yes, I think spying did occur. The question is whether it was predicated, adequately predicated. I'm not suggesting it wasn't adequately predicated, but I need to explore that. I think it's my obligation. Congress is usually very concerned

about intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies staying in their proper lane and I want to make sure that that happened we have a lot of rules about that well we know that there was a lot of like a lot of the intelligence agencies did not fucking like Trump and he like went to war with those people which is insane insane. It's just fucked. We're fucked. It's a lot of mess. We're fucked. It's a lot of mess.

It's a lot of mess. And then where are we going to be in 2024? Excuse me, 2024, because he's running again. So here we are, 2022. You really think he's going to run again? 100%. Yeah, I think so. Don't you think so? He just announced it at CPAC.

I guess. Not nothing surprised. What would surprise you? Like tomorrow you wake up. What could surprise you at this point? That's a good question. Yeah. That's a good question.

Everything's so aliens. Would that really surprise you? I mean. Yes. No. That would be a surprise. You don't think. I'd be like, wow.

But I mean, I wouldn't even know whether I believe it. Because like if you really wanted to fuck with people, look, I think that a lot of what we're looking at when we're looking at UFOs, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I think a lot of it is these classified government projects. I think they probably have classified propulsion systems that maybe don't even use people. They're probably just drones. But I think they have capabilities that we don't understand yet in terms of like the general public. And they've been working on these sort of different types of propulsion, magnetic propulsion systems. These have been theoretical for a long time. And then this thing that Bob Lazar supposedly worked on way back in the late 80s at Area S4.

The way he described it is exactly the way these things are moving, the way that you see these crafts move, like the one that was observed by Commander David Fravor, the one that was observed by a lot of these other guys that are these Air Force folks that are catching these objects moving at these insane rates of speed.

Underwater. Yeah, they're going from ground to water, from sky to water, rather. Yeah, they don't know what the fuck is going on. But if they're working on these things, it kind of makes sense. Because they're always happening. Like this one, here's one. The fucking one that was in San Diego, why would it be in San Diego? Why wouldn't it be?

That's where all the fucking military bases are. There's so much was in San Diego, why would it be in San Diego? Why wouldn't it be? That's where all the fucking military bases are. There's so much military in San Diego. If you were going to work on some top secret classified shit, you'd have to be near bases, right? You'd want to do it there. That's where they would do it. Yeah. I mean, I just, yeah, I don't know. I don't know either.

What if? I don't know. What if we're all getting played? What if the aliens are doing all this to us? I don't think that's happening. I think we're too stupid. I think it's pretty clear that we're doing it to ourselves through corruption. I mean, and what we've done in the United States is we have allowed money to get into politics.

We've allowed money to get into— Yes, yes, yes, yes. A lot of it. I mean, that was what Eisenhower warned about when he was leaving office. I mean, that speech, when he warns about the dangers of the military-industrial complex, that is a terrifying speech because that was a guy who knew. You know, he knew exactly what was going on behind the scenes. And he chose to take the time when he's leaving office to warn about a machine that wants to go to war, that wants to find reasons to go to war to profit.

And that we know that that's real. And that's why we stayed in Afghanistan and Iraq so long. I'm sure. I'm sure it had a factor, right? Yeah. And then there's people that think we should have stayed there indefinitely. You don't think for a second. Like, yeah, for why?

Like, why? Like, if the Taliban had thought that we were going to come occupy them for 20 years, they would have gave over Osama bin Laden on September 12th. You think so? Yeah, they didn't want us there. You know what I mean? Like they could have kept going on about business as usual. And, you know, I just, no, I mean, we were there.

And, you know, even though this administration completely fucked this whole pullout up, every other administration had the same opportunity to pull us out. But they didn't. Right. I think they were warned that this is how it was going to go down, right? Yeah. And so it's like, I'm glad we're out. I'm glad we're out. I mean.

Would have been nice if we didn't give them all those weapons though, right? Well, why do you think we left them there? Because then we got to build more. Oh. Come on. Come on. Are you kidding me? I honestly didn't even think of that wait of course of course guess what all all these all these weapon systems all this military gear

well now we're just we'll have to build the next gen because they've got it now right oh that's like a modern version of that uh schmedley butler you know that uh you know that uh piece that that guy wrote war is a racket did you ever read that but schmedley butler i think he was a he he was a medal of honor recipient yeah and it was in the 1930s i believe this was after world war one i think it was 33 he wrote this. It was called War is a Racket. And this was a guy that had served overseas and thought what he was doing. Like, you could pull it up, Jamie, because it's kind of interesting. He was saying that what he thought he was doing was just protecting the world for bankers and different people.

War is a Racket. 1935. Smedley Butler. He got two Medal of Honors. Yeah. Look at that people. War is a racket. 1935, Smedley Butler. He got two Medal of Honors. Yeah. Look at that dude. He's a badass. Let's give this speech about, let's see if we can find, it's not a long thing to read,

but it's essentially. I'm sure it would be in that Wikipedia at the top. Yeah, it should be. If you'll just go down to it. It should be available to read. Right. Oh, yeah. Well, essentially what he said, though, was that he realized that, oh, here it goes. Perfect.

War is a racket. It always has been. It's possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which profits are reckoned in dollars and losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small inside group knows what it's about. It's conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the very many.

Out of war, a few people make huge fortunes. He said, I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the national city bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1909 to 1912. Where have I heard, where have I heard that name before?

I bought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar business interest rather in 1916 in China. I helped see to it that standard oil went its way unmolested. I mean, this is, he was writing about this in the 1930s, almost 100 years ago. We've seen a lot of rackets lately. Yeah.

Yeah, that's why that, I remember reading that. I think the first time I read it was in the 90s. I was like, wow, this is crazy. This guy wrote about this in the 1930s. Like you would. And this won't be fixed until our leaders can't be like the leaders of this country the service servants cannot they don't go up there and become richer when they come home and all of them do all of them do like you should not be able to have either blind trust is is the

the lenient part of it when you have stocks and you're in those positions. But I don't think you should be able to have stocks. You shouldn't – like you should have to go up there and purely you're here to serve. Well, you get a lot less people wanting that fucking job. Well, I mean but you also might be able to get more relevant people to what the everyday citizen lives. I mean, but you also might be able to get more relevant people to what the everyday citizen lives. I think the real problem is once it's already established the way it is now, where there is a lot of financial influence, where they do contribute to the campaigns, where they do have special interest groups, where they do have these people that help them get into office and they're beholden to them once they get in there. And then you have people like Nancy Pelosi that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they make 200 grand a year.

And you're like, what? But she made she makes that money based off the information she fucking knows. Which is crazy. Which is crazy. But it's like it's just like Obamacare was a perfect example. Everybody else was forced to get it except them. Like it's crazy. It's crazy that, you know that that they can they can have information

so the shit that they can do they're not held accountable if they know inside like go look at the i did a podcast on the american party but or me and dan did a podcast on the american party podcast about um trading up like trading within within you know the house and all that oh you see the list of all the people that trade is like wow wow. And, and then what you look at is, is you look at like, oh, they invested in Raytheon or whatever. And then they, they knew that three days later, they were going to vote on a contract that was going to go to them. And again, jumps their profits up, raises their stock price up. It's crazy. It's crazy that it's legal. It's crazy. It's legal because if you were a person on wall street and you did something like that you go to jail you're going to jail i know it's nuts it's a way

it's crazy loophole but it's like you were talking about before that we're just accustomed to it we get numb to it like oh what are you gonna do and that's that's what they rely on you know rely on it's it's crazy that that that it's okay and until until, but at what point do you hold them accountable? Right? Like that's the hard part. What's going to, what is it going to take for it to change? And how is it going to change? And what, you know, what's going to be the method? Well, you start by, you start by, you start by first off being a good individual and doing the right thing. And then you do that in your home and you start raising good, decent, moral children. And then you expand that.

That expands the community. And then it just expands. That's the only way to fix it. You don't fix it. You can't fix it by going up there and a coop or whatever. You have to fix everybody. You have to start with yourself.

Yeah. That's the reality. And the way forward. On that, the way forward. The book, it's out today, right now. Robert O'Neill, Dakota Meyer. Dakota, you're a bad motherfucker. Thanks, man.

I appreciate you, brother. It was good seeing you. Good seeing you, too. All right, bye, everybody.